Assistance of Foreign and borrowed Succours Truth makes way into our Vnderstanding by her own Light and is but the weaker for any borrowed Force that Violence can add to her These words of his how hard soever they may seem to you may help you to conceive how he should think to do Service to True Religion by recommending and perswading such a Toleration as he proposed And now pray tell me your self whether you do not think True Religion would be a gainer by it if such a Toleration establish'd there would permit the Doctrine of the Church of England to be freely preached and its Worship set up in any Popish Mahumetan or Pagan Country If you do not you have a very ill Opinion of the Religion of the Church of England and must own that it can only be propagated and supported by Force If you think it would gain in those Countries by such a Toleration you are then of the Author's Mind and do not find it so hard to conceive how the recommending such a Toleration might do Service to that which you think True Religion But if you allow such a Toleration useful to Truth in other Countries you must find something very peculiar in the Air that must make it less useful to Truth in England And 't will savour of much partiality and be too absurd I fear for you to own that Toleration will be advantagious to True Religion all the World over except only in this Island Though I much suspect this as absurd as it is lies at the bottom And you build all you say upon this lurking Supposition that the National Religion now in England back'd by the Publick Authority of the Law is the only True Religion and therefore no other is to be tolerated Which being a Supposition equally unavoidable and equally just in other Countries unless we can imagine that every where but in England Men believe what at the same time they think to be a Lie will in other Places exclude Toleration and thereby hinder Truth from the means of propagating it self What the Fruits of Toleration are which in the next words you complain do remain still among us and which you say give no Encouragement to hope for any Advantages from it what Fruits I say these are or whether they are owing to the want or wideness of Toleration among us we shall then be able to judg when you tell us what they are In the mean time I will boldly say that if the Magistrates will severely and impartially set themselves against Vice in whomsoever it is found and leave Men to their own Consciences in their Articles of Faith and Ways of Worship True Religion will be spread wider and be more fruitful in the Lives of its Professors than ever hitherto it has been by the imposition of Creeds and Ceremonies You tell us that no Man can fail of sinding the Way of Salvation who seeks it as he ought I wonder you had not taken notice in the places you quote for this how we are directed there to the right way of seeking The words John vii 17. are If any Man will do his Will he shall know of the Doctrine whether it be of God And Psalm XXV 9 12 14. which are also quoted by you tell us The Meek will he guide in Judgment and the Meek will he teach his Way What Man is he that feareth the Lord him shall he teach in the Way that he shall chuse The Secret of the Lord is with them that fear him and he will shew them his Covenant So that these places if they prove what you cite them for that no Man can fail of finding the Way of Salvation who seeks it as he ought they do also prove that a good Life is the only way to seek as we ought and that therefore the Ma istrates if they would put Men upon seeking the way of Salvation as they ought should by their Laws and Penalties force them to a good Life A good Conversation being the readiest and surest way to a right Understanding Punishments and Severities thus apply'd we are sure are both practicable just and useful How Punishments will prove in the way you contend for we shall see when we come to consider it Having given us these broad Marks of your Good-will to Toleration you tell us 'T is not your Design to argue against it but only to enquire what our Author offers for the proof of his Assertion And then you give us this Scheme of his Argument 1. There is but one Way of Salvation or but one True Religion 2. No Man can be saved by this Religion who does not believe it to be the True Religion 3. This Belief is to be wrought in Men by Reason and Argument not by outward Force and Compulsion 4. Therefore all such Force is utterly of no use for the promoting True Religion and the Salvation of Souls 5. And therefore no Body can have any Right to use any Force or Compulsion for the bringing Men to the True Religion And you tell us the whole strength of what that Letter urged for the Purpose of it lies in this Argument Which I think you have no more reason to say than if you should tell us that only one Beam of a House had any strength in it when there are several others that would support the Building were that gone The purpose of the Letter is plainly to desend Toleration exempt from all Force especially Civil Force or the Force of the Magistrate Now if it be a true Consequence that Men must be tolerated if Magistrates have no Commission or Authority to punish them for Matters of Religion then the only strength of that Letter lies not in the unfitness of Force to convince Mens Vnderstanding Vid. Let. p. 7. Again If it be true that Magistrates being as liable to Error as the rest of Mankind their using of Force in Matters of Religion would not at all advance the Salvation of Mankind allowing that even Force could work upon them and Magistrates had Authority to use it in Religion then the Argument you mention is not the only one in that Letter of strength to prove the Necessity of Toleration V. Let. P. 8. For the Argument of the unsitness of Force to convince Mens Minds being quite taken away either of the other would be a strong proof for Toleration But let us consider the Argument as you have put it The two first Propositions you say you agree to As to the Third you grant that Force is very improper to be used to induce the Mind to assent to any Truth But yet you deny that Force is utterly useless for the promoting True Religion and the Salvation of Mens Souls which you call the Author's 4th Proposition But indeed that is not the Author's 4th Proposition or any Proposition of his to be sound in the Pages you quote or any where else in the whole Letter either in those terms or
way to make some Men imbrace the Peripatetick Philosophy but not a proper way to find the Truth For perhaps the Peripatetick Philosophy may not be true perhaps a great many have not time nor Parts to Study it perhaps a great many who have studied it cannot be convinced of the truth of it And therefore it cannot be a benefit to the Commonwealth nor one of the Ends of it that these Members of the Society should be disturb'd and diseas'd to no purpose when they are guilty of no fault For just the same reason it cannot be a benefit to â—…ivil Society that Men should be pun shed in Denmark for not being Luâ—…rans in Geneva for not being Calvinists and in Viâ—…nna for not being Papists as a means to make them find out the true Religion For so upon your grounds Men most be treated in those places as well as in England for not being of the Church of England And then I beseech you consider the great benefit will accrue to Men in Society by this method And I suppose it will be a hard thing for you to prove That ever Civil Governments were instituted to punâ—…sh Men for not being of this or that Sect in Religion however by accident indirectly and at a distance it may be an occasion to one perhaps of a thousand or an hundred to study that Controversy which is all you expect from it If it be a Benefit pray tell me what Benefit it is A Civil Benefit it cannot be For Mens Civil Interests are disturb'd injur'd and impair'd by it And what Spiritual Benefit that can be to any multitude of Men to be punâ—…shed for Dissenting from a false or erroneous Prosession I would have you sind out unless it be a Spiritual Benefit to be in danger to be driven into a wrong way For if in all differing Sects one is in the wrong 't is a hundred to one but that from which one Dissents and is punished for Dissenting from is the wrong I grant it is past doubt That the Nature of Man is so covetous of Good that no one would have excluded from any Action he does or from any Institution he is concerned in any manner of Good or Benefit that it might any way yeild And if this be your meaning it will not be denied you But then you speak very improperly or rather very mistakenly if you call such benefits as may any way i. e. indirectly and at a distance or by accident be attain'd by Civil or any other Society the Ends for which it is instituted Nothing can in reason be reckon'd amongst the Ends of any Sâ—…ty but what may in reason be supposed to be designed by those who enter into it â—…ow no body can in reason suppose that any one entâ—…ed into Civil Society for the procuring securing or advancing the salvation of his Soulâ—… when he for that end needed not the Force of Civil Society The procuring therefore sâ—…ing and advancing the Spiritual and Eâ—…ernal Interest of men cannot in reason be reckon'd amongst the Ends of Civil Societies Tho perhaps it might so fall out that in some particular instance some mans spiritual Interest might be advanced by your or any other way of applying Civil Force A Nobleman whose Chappel is decayed or â—…allen may make â—…se of his Dining-room for Praying and Preaching Yet whatever 〈◊〉 were attainable by this use of the room no body can in reason reckon this among the Ends for which it was built no more than the accidental breeding of some Bird in any part of it tho it were a Benefit it yielded could in reason be reckon'd among the Ends of building the House But say you Doubtless Commonwealths are instituted for the attaining of all the Bâ—…nefits which pelitical Government can yield and therefore if the Spiritual and Etâ—…rnal Interests of men may any way be procur'd or advanc'd by Pâ—…litical Government the procuring and advancing those Interests must in all reason be reckâ—…n'd amongst the Eâ—…ds of Civil Sâ—…ciety and so conâ—…quently fall within the compass of the Magistrates Jurisdiction Upon the same Grounds I thus reason Doubtless Churches are instituted â—…or the attaining of all the Benefits which Ecclesiastical Government can yield And therefore if the Temporal and Secular Interests â—…f men maâ—… any way be procured or advanced by Ecclesiasticâ—…l Polâ—…y the 〈◊〉 and advancing those Interests must in all reason be reckoned among the Ends of Religious Societies and so consequently fall within the compass of Church-mens Jurisdiction The Church of Rome has openly made its advantage of Secular Interests to be precured or advanced indirectly and at a distance and in ordâ—…e ad spiritualia all which ways if I mistake not English are comprehended under your any way But I do not remember that any of the Reformed Churches have hitherto directly professed it But there is a time for all things And if the Commonwealth once invades the spiritual Ends of the Church by medling with the Salvation of Souls which she has alway been so tender of who can deny that the Church should have liberty to make her self some amends by Reprisals But Sir however you and I may argue from wrong suppositions yet unless the Apostle Eph. 4 where he reckons up the Church-Officers which Christ had instituted in his Churh had told us they were for some other Ends than for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ the advancing of their secular Interests will scarce be allow'd to be their business or within the compass of their Jurisdiction Nor till it can be shewn that Civil Society is instituted for Spiritual Ends or that the Magistrate has commission to interpose his Authority or use Force in matters of Religion your supposition of Spiritual Benefits indirectly and at a distance attainable by Political Government will never prove the advancing of those Interests by Force to be the Magistrates business and to fall within the compass of his Jurisdiction And till then the Force of the Arguments which the Author has brought against it in the 7th and following Pages of his Letter will hold good Common-wealths or Civil Societies and Governments if you will believe the judicious Mr. Hooker are as St. Peter calls them 1 Pet. 2.13 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the contrivance and institution of man and he shews there for what end viz. for the Punishment of evil doers and the praise of them that do well I do not find any where that it is for the punishment of those who are not in Church Communion with the Magistrate to make them study Controversies in Religion or hearken to those who will tell them they have mistaken their way and offer to show them the right one You must shew them such a Commission if you say it is from God And in all Societies instituted by man the Ends of them can be no other than what the Institutors appointed which I am sure
e. Punishment may be any way useful for the promoting the Salvation of Souls there is a right somewhere to use it And this Right say you is in the Magistrate Who then upon your grounds may quickly find reason where it suits his inclination or serves his turn to punish men directly to bring them to his Religion For if he may use Force because it may be indirectly and at a distance any way useful towards the Salvation of Souls towards the procuring any degree of glory Why may he not by the same Rule use it where it may be useful at least indirectly and at a distance towards the procuring a greater degree of glory For St. Paul assures us that the Afflictions of this life work for us a far more exceeding weight of glory So that why should they not be punished if in the wrong to bring them into the right way If in the right to make them by their Sufferings gainers of a far more exceeding weight of glory But whatever you say of Punishment being lawful because indirectly and at a distance it may be useful I suppose upon cooler thoughts you will be apt to suspect that however Sufferings may promote the Salvation of those who make a good use of them and so set men surer in the right way or higher in a state of glory yet those who make men unduly suffer will have the heavier Account and greater weight of guilt upon them to sink them deeper in the Pit of perdition and that therefore they should be warn'd to take take care of so using their Power Because whoever be gainers by it they themselves will without repentance and amendment be sure to be losers But by granting that the Magistrate misapplies his Power when he punishes those who have the Right on their side whether it be to bring them to his own Religion or whether it be to bring them to consider reasons and arguments proper to convince them you grant all that the Author contends for All that he endeavours is to shew the bounds of Civil Power and that in punishing others for Religion the Magistrate misapplies the Force he has in his hands and so goes beyond Right beyond the limits of his Power For I do not think the Author of the Letter so vain I am sure for my part I am not as to hope by Arguments though never so clear to reform presently all the Abuses in this matter Especially whilst men of Art and Religion endeavour so industriously to palliate and disguise what truth yet sometimes unawares forces from them Do not think I make a wrong use of your saying the Magistrate misapplies his Power when I say you therein grant all that the Author contends for For if the Magistrate misapplies or makes a wrong use of his Power when he punishes in matters of Religion any one who is in the Right though it be but to make him consider as you grant he does he also misapplies or makes wrong use of his Power when he punishes any one whomsoever in Matters of Religion to make him consider For every one is here Judg for himself what is Right And in matters of Faith and Religious Worship another cannot judg for him So that to punish any one in Matters of Religion tho it be but to make him consider is by your own Confession beyond the Magistrate's Power And that punishing in matters of Religion is beyond the Magistrate's Power is what the Author contends for You tell us in the following words All the hurt that comes to them by it is only the suffering some tolerable Inconveniences for their follâ—…ing the Light of their own Reason and the Dictates of their own Consciences which certainly is no such mischief to Mankind as to make it more elegible that there should be no such Power vested in the Magistrate but the care of every Man's Soul should be left to himself alone as this Author demands it should be that is that every Man should be suffer'd quietly and without the least Molestation either to take no care at all of his Soul if he be so pleased or in doing it to follow his own groundless Prejudices or unaccountable Humour or any crafty Seducer whom he may think fit to take for his Guide Why should not the care of every Man's Soul be left to himself rather than the Magistrate Is the Magistrate like to be more concern'd for it Is the Magistrate like to take more care of it Is the Magistrate commonly more careful of his own than other Men are of theirs Will you say the Magistrate is less expos'd in matters of Religion to Prejudices Humours and Crafty Seducers than other Men If you cannot lay your Hand upon your Heart and say all this What then will be got by the change And why may not the care of every Man's Soul be left to himself Especially if a Man be in so much danger to miss the truth who is suffer'd quietly and without the least Molestation either to take no care of his Soul if he be so pleased or to follow his own Prejudices c. For if want of Molestation be the dangerous state wherein Men are likeliest to miss the right way it must be confessed that of all Men the Magistrate is most in danger to be in the wrong and so the unfittest if you take the care of Mens Souls from themselves of all Men to be intrusted with it For he never meets with that great and only Antidote of yours against Error which you here call Molestation He never has the benefit of your Sovereign Remedy Punishment to make him consider which you think so necessary that you look on it as a most dangerous State for Men to be without it and therefore tell us 't is every Man's true Interest not to be left wholly to himself in matters of Religion Thus Sir I have gone through your whole Treatise and as I think have omitted nothing in it material If I have I doubt not but I shall hear of it And now I refer it to your self as well as to the Judgment of the World Whether the Author of the Letter in saying no Body hath a Right or you in saying the Magistrate hath a Right to use force in Matters of Religion has most Reason In the mean time I leave this request with you That if ever you write again about the means of bringing Souls to Salvation which certainly is the best design any one can imploy his Pen in you would take care not to prejudice so good a Cause by ordering it so as to make it look as if you writ for a Party I am SIR Your most Humble Servant PHILANTHROPUS May 27. 1690. FINIS Pag. 12 13 14. Pag. 1. Pag. 2. Pag. 49. Pag. 7. Pag. 3. Pag. 4. Pag. 5. Pag. 5. Pag. 13. Pag. 14. Pag. 23. Pag. 5. Pag. 5. Pag. 16. Pag. 5. Mark 4.24 Pag. 6. Pag. 10. Ezek. 11.5 7. Pag. 10. Pag. 11. Pag. 11. Pag. 20. Pag. 26. Pag. 12. Pag. 5. Pag. 10. Pag. 27 Pag. 23. Pag. 11. Pag. 27. Pag. 12. Pag. 13. Pag. 14. Pag. 20. Pag. 6 7 8 9 10. Pag. 22. Pag. 12. Pag. 22. Pag. 26. Pag. 22. Pag. 12. Pag. 21. Pag. 25. Pag. 26. Pag. 12. Pag. 10. Pag. 12. Pag. 24. Pag. 15. Pag. 12. P. 14. P. 13 14. P. 26. P. 13 14 P. 21. P. 24. P. 25. P. 15. P. 16. P. 17. P. 18. P. 19. P. 21. P. 21. P. 20. P. 22. P. 22. P. 7. P. 26. P. 15. P. 16. P. 26.
A SECOND LETTER CONCERNING TOLERATION LICENSED June 24. 1690. LONDON Printed for Awnsham and John Churchill at the Black Swan in Ave-Mary-Lane near Pater-Noster-Row M DC XC TO THE AUTHOR OF THE Argument of the Letter concerning Toleraration briefly considered and answered SIR YOU will pardon me if I take the same Liberty with you that you have done with the Author of the Letter concerning Toleration to consider your Arguments and endeavour to shew you the Mistakes of them For since you have so plainly yeilded up the Question to him and do own that the Severities he would disswà de Christians from are utterly unapt and improper to bring Men to imbrace that Truth which must save them I am not without some hopes to prevail with you to do that your self which you say is the only justifiable Aim of Men differing about Religion even in the use of the severest Methods viz. Carefully and impartially to weigh the whole matter and thereby to remove that Prejudice which makes you yet favour some Remains of Persecution Promising my self that so ingenious a Person will either be convinced by the Truth which appears so very clear and evident to me or else confess that were either you or I in Authority we should very unreasonably and very unjustly use any Force upon the other which differ'd from him upon any pretence of want of Examination And if Force be not to be used in your case or mine because unreasonable or unjust you will I hope think fit that it should be forborn in all others where it will be equally unjust and unreasonable as I doubt not but to make it appear it will unavoidably be where ever you will go about to punish Men for want of Consideration For the true way to try such Speculations as these is to see how they will prove when they are reduc'd into Practice The first thing you seem startled at in the Author's Letter is the largeness of the Toleration he proposes And you think it strange that he would not have so much as a Pagan Mahumetan or Jew excluded from the Civil Rights of the Commonwealth because of his Religion We pray every day for their Conversion and I think it our Duty so to do But it will I fear hardly be believed that we pray in earnest if we exclude them from the other ordinary and probable means of Conversion either by driving them from or persecuting them when they are amongst us Force you allow is improper to convert Men to any Religion Toleration is but the removing that Force So that why those should not be tolerated as well as others if you wish their Conversion I do not see But you say it seems hard to conceive how the Author of that Letter should think to do any Service to Religion in general or to the Christian Religion by recommending and perswading such a Toleration For how much soever it may tend to the Advancement of Trade and Commerce which some seem to place above all other Considerations I see no reason from any Experiment that has been made to expect that true Religion would be a gainer by it that it would be either the better preserved the more widely propagated or rendred any whit the more fruitful in the Lives of its Professors by it Before I come to your Doubt it self Whether true Religion would be a gainer by such a Toleration give me leave to take notice that if by other Considerations you mean any thing but Religion your Parenthesis is wholly besides the matter and that if you do not know that the Author of the Letter places the Advancement of Trade above Religion your Insinuation is very uncharitable But I go on You see no reason you say from any Experiment that has been made to expect that true Religion would be a gainer by it True Religion and Christian Religion are I suppose to you and me the same thing But of this you have an Experiment in its first appearance in the World and several hundreds of Years after It was then better preserv'd more widely propagated in proportion and render'd more fruitful in the Lives of its Professors than ever since tho then Jews and Pagans were tolerated and more than tolerated by the Governments of those places where it grew up I hope you do not imagine the Christian Religion has lost aâ—… of its first Beauty Force or Reasonableness by having been â—…most 2000 Years in the World that you should fear it should be less able now to shift for it self without the help of Force I doubt not but you look upon it still to be the Poâ—…er and Wisdom of God for our Salvation and therefore cannot suspect it less capable to prevail now by its own Truth and Light than it did in the first Ages of the Church when poor contemptible Men without Authority or the countenance of Authority had alone the care of it This as I take it has been made use of by Christians generally and by some of our Church in particular as an Argument for the Truth of the Christian Religion that it grew and spread and prevailed without any Aid from Force or the Assistance of the Powers in being And if it be a mark of the true Religion that it will prevail by its own Light and Strength but that false Religions will not but have need of Force and foreign Helps to support them nothing certainly can be more for the advantage of true Religion than to take away Compulsion every where And therefore it is no more hard to conceive how the Author of the Letter should think to do Service to Religion in general or to the Christian Religion than it is hard to conceive that he should think there is a true Religion and that the Christian Religion is it which its Professors have always own'd not to need Force and have urged that as a good Argument to prove the truth of it The Inventions of Men in Religion need the Force and Helps of Men to support them A Religion that is of God wants not the Assistance of Human Authority to make it prevail I guess when this dropp'd from you you had narrow'd your Thoughts to your own Age and Country But if you will enlarge them a little beyond the Consines of England I do not doubt but you will easily imagine that if in Italy Spain Portugal c. the Inquisition and in France their Dragooning and in other parts those Severities that are used to keep or force Men to the National Religion were taken away and instead thereof the Toleration propos'd by the Author were set up the true Religion would be a gainer by it The Author of the Letter says Truth will do well enough if she were once left to shift for her self She seldom hath received and he fears never will receive much Assistance from the Power of great Men to whom she is but rarely known and more rarely welcome Errors indeed prevail by the
yet by other parts of your Treatise 't is plain you mean the Magistrate And secondly you omit to say upon whom it must be used who it is must be punished And those if you say any thing to your purpose must be Dissenters from the National Religion those who come not into Church-Communion with the Magistrate And then your Proposition in fair plain terms will stand thus If the Magistrate punish Dissenters only to bring them to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper to convince them who can deny but that indirectly and at distance it may do Service c. towards bringing Men to embrace that Truth which otherwise they would never be acquainted with c. In which Proposition 1. There is something impracticable 2. Something unjust And 3. Whatever Efficacy there is in Force your way apply'd to bring Men to consider and be convinced it makes against you 1. It is impracticable to punish Dissenters as Dissenters only to make them consider For if you punish them as Dissenters as certainly you do if you punish them alone and them all without exception you punish them for not being of the National Religion And to punish a Man for not being of the National Religion is not to punish him only to make him consider unless not to be of the National Religion and not to consider be the same thing But you will say the design is only to make Dissenters consider and therefore they may be punished only to make them consider To this I reply It is impossible you should punish one with a design only to make him consider whom you punish for something else besides want of Consideration or if you punish him whether he consider or no as you do if you lay Penalties on Dissenters in general If you should make a Law to punish all Stammerers could any one believe you if you said it was designed only to make them leave Swearing Would not every one see it was impossible that punishment should be only against Swweating when all Stammerers were under the penalty Such a proposal as this is in it self at first sight monstrously absurd But you must thank your self for it For to lay penalties upon Stammerers only to make them not swear is not more absurd and impossible than it is to lay Penalties upon Dissenters only to make them consider 2. To punish Men out of the Communion of the National Church to make them consider is unjust Tlsey are punished because out of the National Church And they are out of the National Church because they are not yet convinced Their standing out therefore in this State whilst they are not convinced not satisfied in their Minds is no Fault and therefore cannot justly be punished But your method is Punish them to make them consider such Reasons and Arguments as are proper to convince them Which is just such Justice as it would be for the Magistrate to punish you for not being a Cartesian only to bring you to consider such Reasons and Arguments as are proper and sufficient to convince you When it is possible 1. That you being satisfied of the truth of your own Opinion in Philosophy did not judg it worth while to consider that of Des Cartes 2. It is possible you are not able to consider and examine all the Proofs and Grounds upon which he endeavours to establish his Philosophy 3. Possibly you have examined and can sind no Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince you 3. What ever indirect Efficacy there be in Force apply'd by the Magistrate your way it makes against you Force used by the Magistrate to bring Men to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them but which without being forced they would not consider may say you be serviceable indirectly and at a distance to make Men imbrace the Truth which must save them And thus say I it may be serviceable to bring Men to receive and imbrace Falshood which will destroy them So that Force and Punishment by your own confession not being able directly by its proper Efficacy to do Men any good in reference to their future Estate though it be sure directly to do them harm in reference to their present condition here and indirectly and in your way of applying it being proper to do at least as much harm as good I desire to know what the Vsefulness is which so much recommends it even to a degree that you pretend it needful and necessary Had you some new untry'd Chymical Preparation that was as proper to kill as to save an infirm Man of whose Life I hope you would not be more tender than of a weak Brother's Soul would you give it your Child or try it upon your Friend or recommend it to the World for its rare Usefulness I deal very favourably with you when I say as proper to kill as to save For Force in your indirect way of the Magistrates applying it to make Men consider those Arâ—…uments that otherwise they would not to make them lend an Ear to those who tell them they have mistaken their Way and offer to shew them the right I say in this Way Force is much more proper and likely to make Men receive and imbrace Error than the Truth 1. Because Men out of the right Way are as apt I think I may say apter to use Force than others For Truth I mean the Truth of the Gospel which is that of the True Religion is mild and gentle and meek and apter to use Prayers and Intreaties than Force to gain a hearing 2. Because the Magistrates of the World or the Civil Soveraigns as you think it more proper to call them being few of them in the right Way not one of ten take which side you will perhaps you will grant not one of an hundred being of the True Religion 't is likely your indirect way of using of Force would do an hundred or at least ten times as much harm as good Especially if you consider that as the Magistrate will certainly use it to force Men to hearken to the proper Ministers of his Religion let it be what it will so you having set no Time nor bounds to this consideration of Arguments and Reasons short of being convinced you under another pretence put into the Magistrate's Hands as much Power to sorce Men to his Religion as any the openest Persecutors can pretend to For what difference I beseech you between punishing you to bring you to Mass and punishing you to bring you to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince you that you ought to go to Mass For till you are brought to consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince you that is till you are convinced you are punished on If you reply you meant Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince them of the Truth I answer if you meant so why did
Men compell'd to hear but thought the good Tidings of Salvation and the Proposals of Life and Death Means and Inducements enough to make them hear and consider now as well as heretofore Then your Means your Punishments are not necessary What if God would have Men left to their freedom in this Point if they will hear or if they will forbear will you constrain them Thus we are sure he did with his own People And this when they were in Captivity And 't is very like were ill treated for being of a different Religion from the National and so were punished as Dissenters Yet then God expected not that those Punishments should force them to hearken more than at other times As appears by Ezek. 3.11 And this also is the Method of the Gospel We are Ambassadors for Christ as if God did beseech by us we pray in Christ's stead says St. Paul 2 Cor. v. 20. If God had thought it necessary to have Men punish'd to make them give Ear he could have call'd Magistrates to be Spreaders and Ministers of the Gospel as well as poor Fisher-men or Paul a Persecutor who yet wanted not Power to punish where Punishment was necessary as is evident in Ananias and Sapphira and the incestuous Corinthian 2ly What if God foreseeing this Force would be in the hands of Men as passionate as humoursome as liable to Prejudice and Error as the rest of their Brethren did not think it a proper Means to bring Men into the Right Way 3ly What if there be other Means Then yours ceases to be necessary upon the account that there is no means left For you your self allow That the Grace of God is another means And I suppose you will not deny it to be both a proper and sufficient Means and which is more the only Means such Means as can work by it self and without which all the Force in the World can do nothing God alone can open the Ear that it may hear and open the Heart that it may understand and this he does in his own good Time and to whom he is graciously pleas'd but not according to the Will and Phancy of Man when he thinks sit by Punishments to compel his Brethren If God has pronounced against any Person or People what he did against the Jews Isa. 6.10 Make the Heart of this People fat and make their Ears heavy and shut their Eyes lest they see with their Eyes and hear with their Ears and understand with their Hearts and convert and be healed Will all the Force you can use be a Means to make them hear and understand and be converted But Sir to return your Argument You see no other Means left taking the World as we now find it to make Men throughly and impartially examine a Religion which they imbraced upon such Inducements as ought to have no sway at all in the Matter and with little or no examination of the proper Grounds of it And thence you conclude the use of Force by the Magistrate upon Dissenters necessary And I say I see no other Means left taking the World as we now find it wherein the Magistrates never lay Penalties for Matters of Religion upon those of his own Church nor is it to be expected they ever should to make Men of the National Church any where throughly and impartially examine a Religion which they imbraced upon such Inducements as ought to have no sway at all in the Matter and therefore with little or no examination of the proper Grounds of it And therefore I conclude the use of Force by Dissentâ—…rs upon Conformists necessary I appeal to the World whether this be not as just and natural a Conclusion as yours Though if you will have my Opinion I think the more genuine Consequence is that Force to make Men examine Matters of Religion is not necessary at all But you may take which of these Consequences you please Both of them I am sure you cannot avoid It is not for you and me out of an imagination that they may be useful or are necessary to prescribe means in the great and mysterious Work of Salvation other than what God himself has directed God has appointed Force as useful and necessary and therefore it is to be used is a way of Arguing becoming the Ignorance and Humility of poor Creatures But I think Force useful or necessary and therefore it is to be used has methinks a little too much presumption in it You ask What Means else is there left None say I to be used by Man but what God himself has directed in the Scriptures wherein are contained all the Means and Methods of Salvation Faith is the Gift of God And we are not to use any other Means to procure this Gift to any one but what God himself has prescribed If he has there appointed that any should be forced to hear those who tell them they have mistaken their way and offer to shew them the right and that they should be punished by the Magistrate if they did not 't will be past doubt it is to be made use of But till that can be done 't will be in vain to say what other Means is there left If all the Means God has appointed to make Men hear and consider be Exhortation in Season and out of Season c. together with Prayer for them and the Example of Meekness and a good Life this is all ought to be done Whether they will hear or whether they will forbear By these means the Gospel at first made it self to be heard through a great part of the World and in a crooked and perverse Generation led away by Lusts Humours and Prejudice as well as this you complain of prevail'd with Men to hear and imbrace the Truth and take care of their own Souls without the assistance of any such Force of the Magistrate which you now think needful But whatever Neglect or Aversion there is in some Men impartially and throughly to be instructed there will upon a due Examination I fear be found no less a Neglect and Aversion in others impartially and throughly to instruct them 'T is not the talking even general Truths in plain and clear Language much less a Man 's own Fancies in Scholastick or uncommon ways of speaking an hour or two once a week in publick that is enough to instruct even willing Hearers in the way of Salvation and the Grounds of their Religion They are not Politick Discourses which are the means of right Information in the Foundations of Religion For with such sometimes venting Antimonarchical Principles sometimes again preaching up nothing but absolute Monarchy and Passive Obedience as the one or other have been in vogue and the way to Preferment have our Churches rung in their turns so loudly that Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince Men of the Truth in the controverted Points of Religion and to direct them in the right way to Salvation were scarce
the Salvation of their Souls the End for which you say this Force is to be used judg you But this I am sure Whoever will lend an Ear to all who will tell them they are out of the Way will not have much time for any other Business Sometimes it is To recover Men to so much Sobriety and Reflection as seriously to put the Question to themselves Whether it be really worth their while to undergo such Inconveniences for adhering to a Religion which for any thing they know may be false or for rejecting another if that be the case which for ought they know may be true till they have brought it to the Bar of Reason and given it a fair Trial there Which in short amounts to thus much viz. To make them examine whether their Religion be True and so worth the holding under those Penalties that are annexed to it Dissenters are indebted to you for your great care of their Souls But what I beseech you shall become of those of the National Church every where which make sar the greater part of Mankind who have no such Punishments to make them consider who have not this only Remedy provided sor them but are lest in that deplorable Condition you mention of being suffer'd quietly and without Molestation to take no care at all of their Souls or in doing of it to follow their own Prejudices Humours or some crafty Seducers Need not those of the National Church as well as others bring their Religion to the Bar of Reason and give it a fair trial there And if they need to do so as they must if all National Religions cannot be supposed true they will always need that which you say is the only means to make them do so So that if you are sure as you tell us that there is need of your Method I am sure there is as much need of it in National Churches as any other And so for ought I can see you must either punish them or let others alone Unless you think it reasonable that the sar greater part of Mankind should constantly be without that Soveraign and only Remedy which they stand in need of equally with other People Sometimes the end for which Men must be punished is to dispose them to submit to Instruction and to give a fair hearing to the Reasons are offer'd for the inliâ—…htning their Minds and discovering the Truth to them If their own words may be taken for it there are as sew Dissenters as Consormists in any Country who will not profess they have done and do this And if their own word may not be taken who I pray must be judg You and your Magistrates If so then it is plain you punish them not to dispose them to submit to Instruction but to your Instruction not to dispose them to give a fair hearing to Reasons offer'd for the inlightning their Minds but to give an obedient hearing to your Reasons If you mean this it had been sairer and shorter to have spoken out plainly than thus in fair words of indesinite Signification to say that which amounts to nothing For what Sense is it to punish a Man to dispose him to submit to Instruction and give a fair hearing to Reasons offer'd for the inlightning his Mind and discovering Truth to him who â—…s two or three times a week several 〈◊〉 on purpâ—…se to do iâ—… and that with the hazard of his Liberty or Purse 〈◊〉 you mean your Instructions your Reasons your Truth Which brings us but back to what you have disclaimed plain Persecution for differing in Religion Sometimes this is to be done To prevail with Men to weigh Matters of Religion carefully and impartially Discountenance and Punishment put into one Scale with Impunity and hopes of Preferment put into the other is as sure a way to make a Man weigh impartially as it would be for a Prince to bribe and threaten a Judg to make him judg uprightly Sometimes it is To make Men bethink themselves and put it out of the power of any foolish Humor or unreasonable Prejudice to alienate them from Truth and their own Happiness Add but this to put it out of the power of any Humour or Prejudice of their own or other Mens and I grant the end is good if you can find the means to procure it But why it should not be put out of the Power of other Mens Humour or Prejudice as well as their own wants and will always want a Reason to prove Would it not I beseech you to an indifferent By-stander appear Humour or Prejudice or some thing as bad to see Men who profess a Religion reveal'd from Heaven and which they own contains all in it necessary to Salvation exclude Men from their Communion and persecute them with the Penalties of the Civil Law for not joining in the use of Ceremonies which are no where to be found in that reveal'd Religion Would it not appear Humour or Prejudice or some such thing to a sober impartial Heathen to see Christians exclude and persecute one of the same Faith for things which they themselves confess to be indifferent and not worth the contending for Prejudice Humour Passion Lusts Impressions of Education Reverence and Admiration of Persons Worldly Respects Love of their own Choice and the like to which you justly impute many Mens taking up and persisting in their Religion are indeed good words and so on the other side are these following Truth the right Way inlightning Reason sound Judgment but they signify nothing at all to your purpose till you can evidently and unquestionably shew the World that the latter viz. Truth and the right way c. are always and in all Countries to be found only in the National Church and the former viz. Passion and Prejudice c. only amongst the Dissenters But to go on Sometimes it is To bring Men to take such care as they ought of their Salvation What care is such as Men ought to take whilst they are out of your Church will be hard for you to tell me But you endeavour to explain your self in the following words that they may not blindly leave it to the choice neither of any other Person nor yet of their own Lusts and Passions to prescribe to them what Faith or Worship they shall imbrace You do well to make use of Punishment to shut Passion out of the choice because you know fear of suffering is no Passion But let that pass You would have Men punished to bring them to take such care of their Salvation that they may not blindly leave it to the choice of any other Person to prescribe to them Are you sincere Are you in earnest Tell me then truly Did the Magistrate or National Church any where or yours in particular ever punish any Man to bring him to have this care which you say he ought to take of his Salvation Did you ever punish any
it is not then the last Proposition which is built upon it must fall with it Which last Proposition is this viz. That no body can have any right to use any outward Force or Compulsion to bring men to the true Religion and so to Salvation If this Proposition were built as you alledg upon that which you call his fourth then indeed if the fourth fell this built upon it would fall with it But that not being the Author's Proposition as I have shew'd nor this built wholly on it but on other Reasons as I have already prov'd and any one may see in several parts of his Letter particularly P. 7 8 and 9. what you alledg falls of it self The business of the next Paragraph is to prove That if Force be useful then somebody must certainly have a right to use it The first Argument you go about to prove it by is this That Usefulness is as good an Argument to prove there is somewhere a right to use it as Uselessness is to prove no body has such a right If you consider the things of whose Usefulness or Uselessness we are speaking you will perhaps be of another mind It is Punishment or Force used in punishing Now all Punishment is some evil some inconvenience some suffering by taking away or abridging some good thing which he who is punished has otherwise a right to Now to justifie the bringing any such evil upon any man two things are requisite First That he who does it has Commission and Power so to do Secondly That it be directly useful for the procuring some greater good Whatever Punishment one man uses to another without these two conditions whatever he may pretend proves an injury and injustice and so of right ought to have been let alone And therefore though Usefulness which is one of the conditions that makes Punishments just when it is away may hinder Punishments from being lawful in any bodies hands yet Usefulness when present being but one of those conditions cannot give the other which is a Commission to punish without which also Punishment is unlawful From whence it follows That tho useless Punishment be unlawful from any hand yet useful Punishment from every hand is not lawful A man may have the Stone and it may be useful more than indirectly and at a distance useful to him to be cut but yet this usefulness will not justifie the most skilful Chirurgeon in the world by Force to make him endure the pain and hazard of Cutting because he has no commission no right without the Patients own consent to do so Nor is it a good Argument Cutting will be useful to him therefore there is a right somewhere to cut him whether he will or no. Much less will there be an Argument for any right if there be only a possibility that it may prove useful indirectly and by accident Your other Argument is this If Force or Punishment be of necessary use then it must be acknowledged that there is a right somewhere to use it unless we will say what without impiety cannot be said That the wise and benign Disposer and Governour of all things has not furnished mankind with competent means for the promoting his own honour in the world and the good of souls If your way of arguing be true 't is demonstration that Force is not of necessary use For I argue thus in your form We must acknowledg Force not to be of necessary use unless we will say what without impiety cannot be said that the wise Disposer and Governour of all things did not for above 300 years after Christ furnish his Church with competent means for promoting his own honour in the world and the good of souls 'T is for you to consider whether these Arguments be conclusive or no. This I am sure the one is as conclusive as the other But if your supposed Usefulness places a right somewhere to use it pray tell me in whose hands it places it in Turky Persia or China or any Country where Christians of dâ—…fferent Churches live under a Heathen or Mahometan Sovereign And if you cannot tell me in whose hands it places it there as I believe you will find it pretty hard to do there are then it seems some places where upon your supposition of the necessary usefulness of Force the wise and benign Governour and Disposer of all things has not furnish'd mâ—…n with competent means for promoting his own honour and the good of Souls unless you will grant that the wise and benign Disposer and Governour of all things bath for the prâ—…moting of his honour and the good of souls placed a power in Mah metan or Heathen Princes to punish Christians to bring them to consider Reasons and Arguments proper to convince them But this is the advantage of so sine an invention as that of Force dâ—…ing some Service indirectly and at a distance which Usefulness if we may believe you places a right in Mahometan or Pagan Princes hands to use force upon Christians for fear lest mankind in those Countries should be unfurnish'd with means for the promoting God's honour and the good of souls For thus you argue If there be so great use of Force then there is a right somewhere to use it And if there be such a right somewhere where should it be but in the Civil Sovereign Who can deny now but that you have taken care great care for the promoting of Truth and the Christian Religion But yet it is as hard for me I consess and I believe for others to conceive how you should think to do any service to Truth and the Christian Religion by putting a right into Mahometans or Heathens hands to punish Christians as it was for you to conceive how the Author should think to do any service to Truth and the Christian Religion by exempting the Professors of it from Punishment every where Since there are more â—…agan Mahometan and erroneous Princes in the world than Orthodox Truth and the Christian Religion taking the world as we find it is sure to be more punished and suppress'd than Error and Falshood The Author having endeavour'd to shew that no body at all of any rank or condition had a power to punish torment or use any man ill for matters of Religion you tell us you do not yet understand why Clergy-men are not as capable of such Power as other Men. I do not remember that the Author any where by excepting Ecclesâ—…sticks more than others gâ—…ve you any occasion to shew your concern in this point Had he â—…seen that this would have touch'd you so nearly and that you set your hâ—…t so much upon the lergys Power of punishing 't is like hâ—… 〈◊〉 have told you he thought Ecclesâ—…sticks as capable of it as any Men and that if forwardness and diligence in the exercise of such Power may recommend any to it Clergy-men in the Opinion of the World stand sairest for it However you
could not be their spiritual and eternal Interest For they could not stipulate about these one with another nor submit this Interest to the power of the Society or any Sovereign they they should set over it There are Nations in the West-Indies which have no other End of their Society but their mutual defence against their common â—…ies In these their Captain or Prince is Sovereign Commander in time of War but in time of Peace neither ne nor â—…y body else has any Authority over any of the Society You cannot deny but other even temporal ends are attainable by these Commonwealths if they had been otherwise instituted and appointed to those ends But all your saying Doubtless Commonwealths are instituted for the attaining of all the benefits which they can yield will not give Authority to any one or more in such a Society by Political Government or Force to procure directly or indirectly other Benefits than that for which it was instituted And therefore there it falls not within the compass of those Princes Jurisdiction to punish any one of the Society for injuring another because he has no commission so to do whatever reason you may think there is that that should be reckoned amongst the Ends of their Society But to conclude Your Argument has that desect in it which turns it upon your self And that is that the procuring and advancing the Spiritual and Eternal Interest of Souls your way is not a Benefit to the Society And so upon your own Supposition the procuring and advancing the spiritual Interest of Souls any way cannot be one of the Ends of Civil Society unless the procuring and advancing the spiritual Interest of souls in a way proper to do more harm than good towards the salvation of Souls be to be accounted such a Benefit as to be one of the ends of Civil Societies For that yours is such a way I have proved already So that were it hard to prove that Political Government whose only Instrument is Force could no way by Force however applied more advance than hinder the Spiritual and Eternal Interest of men yet having prov'd it against your particular new way of applying Force I have sufficiently vindicated the Author's Doctrine from any thing you have said against it Which is enough for my present purpose Your next Page tells us That this reasoning of the Author viz. That the Power of the Magistrate cannot be exâ—…ended to the Salvation of Souls because the care of Souls is not committed to the Magistrate is proving the thing by it self As if you should say when I tell you that you could not extend your Power to meddle with the money of a young Gentleman you travelled with as Tutor because the care of his Money was not committed to you were proving the thing by it self For it is not necessary that you should have the Power of his money it may be intrusted to a Steward who travels with him or it may be left to himself If you have it it is but a delegated Power And in all delegated Powers I thought this a fair proof you have it not or cannot use it which is what the Author means here by extended to because it is not committed to you In the summing up of this Argument P. 18. the Author says No body therefore in fine neither Common-wealths c. hath any Title to invade the Civil Rights and worldly goods of another upon pretence of Râ—…ligion Which is an exposition of what he means in the beginning of the Argument by the Magistrates Power cannot be extended to the Salvation of Souls So that if we take these last cited words equivalent to those in the former place his Prâ—…of will stand thus The Magistrate has no title to invade the Civil Rights or Worldly Goods of any one upon pretence of Religion because the care of Souls is not committed to him This is the same in the Author's sense with the former And whether either this or that be a proving the same thing by it self we must leave to others to judg You quote the â—…uthor's Argument which he brings to prove that the care of Souls is not committed to the Magistrate in these words It is not committed to him by God because it appears not that God has ever given any such authority to one man over another as to compel any one to his Religion This when first I read it I confess I thought a good Argument But you say this is quite besides the business and the reason you give is For the authority of the Magistrate is not an authority to compel any one to his Religion but only an authority to procure all his Subjects the means of discovering the way of Salvation and to procure withal as much as in him lies that none remain ignorant of it c. I fear Sir you forget your self The Author was not writing against your new Hypothesis before it was known in the World He may be excused if he had not the gift of Prophecy to argue against a Notion which was not yet started He had in view only the Laws hitherto made and the Punishments in matters of Religion in use in the world The Penalties as I take it are lain on men for being of different ways of Religion Which what is it other but to compel them to relinquish their own and to conform themselves to that from which they differ If this be not to compel them to the Magistrates Religion pray tellâ—… us what is This must be necessarily so understood unless it can be supposed that the Law intends not to have that done which with Penalies it commands to be done or that Punishments are not compulsion not that compulsion the Author complains of The Law says Do this and live embrace this Doctrine conform to this way of Worship and be at ease and free or else be fined imprisoned banished burnt If you can shew among the Laws that have been made in England concerning Religion and I think I may say any-where else any one that punishes men for not having impartially examin'd the Religion they have imbraced or refus'd I think I may yield you the Cause Law-makers have been generally wiser than to make Laws that could not be executed and therefore their Laws were against Nonconformists which could be known and not for impartial examination which could not 'T was not then besides the Author's business to bring an argument against the Persecutions here in fashion He did not know that any one who was so free as to acknowledg that the Magistrate has not an authority to compel any one to his Religion and thereby at once as you have done give up all the Laws now in force against Dissenters had yet Rods in store for them and by a new Trick would bring them under the lash of the Law when the old Pretences were too much exploded to serve any longer Have you never heard of such a thing as the Religion
in the sense you take it In the 8th Page which you quote the Author is shewing that the Magistrate has no Power that is not Right to make use of Force in Matters of Religion for the Salvation of Mens Souls And the reason he gives for it there is because force has no efficacy to convince Mens Minds and that without a full perswasion of the Mind the Profession of the true Religion it self is not acceptable to God Vpon this ground says he I affirm that the Magistrate's Power extends not to the establishing any Articles of Faith or Forms of Worship by the force of his Laws For Laws are of no force at all without Penalties and Penalties in this case are absolutely impertinent because they are not proper to convince the Mind And so again Pag. 27. which is the other place you quote the Author says What soever may be doubted in Religion yet this at least is certain that no Religion which I believe not to be true can be either true or profitable unto me In vain therefore do Princes compel their Subjects to come into their Church-Communion under the pretence of saving their Souls And more to this purpose But in neither of those Passages nor any where else that I remember does the Author say that it is impossible that Force should any way at any time upon any Person by any Accident be useful towards the promoting of true Religion and the Salvation of Souls for that is it which you mean by utterly of no use He does not deny that there is any thing which God in his Goodness does not or may not sometimes graciously make use of towards the Salvation of Mens Souls as our Saviour did of Clay and Spittle to cure Blindness and that so Force also may be sometimes useful But that which he denies and you grant is that Force has any proper Efficacy to enlighten the Understanding or produce Belief And from thence he infers that therefore the Magistrate cannot lawfully compel Men in matters of Religion This is what the Author says and what I imagine will always hold true whatever you or any one can say or think to the contrary That which you say is Force indirectly and at a distance may do some Service What you mean by doing Service at a distance towards the bringing Men to Salvation or to imbrace the Truth I confess I do not understand unless perhaps it be what others in propriety of Speech call by Accident But be it what it will it is such a Service as cannot be ascribed to the direct and proper Efficacy of Force And so say you Force indirectly and at a distance may do some Service I grant it Make your best of it What do you conclude from thence to your purpose That therefore the Magistrate may make use of it That I deny That such an indirect and at a distance Vsefulness will authorize the Civil Power in the use of it that will never be prov'd Loss of Estate and Dignities may make a proud Man humble Sufferings and Imprisonment may make a wild and debauched Man sober And fo these things may indirectly and at a distance be serviceable towards the Salvation of Mens Souls I doubt not but God has made some or all of these the occasions of good to many Men. But will you therefore infer that the Magistrate may take away a Man's Honour or Estate or Liberty for the Salvation of his Soul or torment him in this that he may be happy in the other World What is otherwise unlawful in it self as it certainly is to punish a Man without a fault can never be made lawful by some Good that indirectly and at a distance or if you please indirectly and by accident may follow from it Running a Man through may save his Life as it has done by chance opening a lurking Imposthume But will you say therefore that this is lawful justifiable Chirurgery The Gallies 't is like might reduce many a vain loose Protestant to Repentance Sobriety of Thought and a true sense of Religion And the Torments they suffer'd in the late Persecution might make several consider the Pains of Hell and put a due estimate of Vanity and Contempt on all things of this World But will you say because those Punishments might indirectly and at a distance serve to the Salvation of Mens Souls that therefore the King of France had Right and Authority to make use of them If your indirect and at a distance Serviceableness may authorize the Magistrate to use Force in Religion all the Cruelties used by the Heathens against Christians by Papists against Protestants and all the persecuting of Christians one amongst another are all justifiable But what if I should tell you now of other Effects contrary Effects that Punishments in matters of Religion may produce and so may serve to keep Men from the Truth and from Salvation What then will become of your indirect and at a distance Vsefulness For in all Pleas for any thing because of its usefulness it is not enough to say as you do and is the utmost that can be said for it that it may be serviceable But it must be considered not only what it may but what it is likely to produce And the greater Good or Harm like to come from it ought to determine of the use of it To shew you what Effects one may expect from Force of what usefulness it is to bring Men to imbrace the Truth be pleas'd to read what you your self have writ I cannot but remark say you that these Methods viz. depriving Men of their Estates Corporal Punishments starving and tormenting them in Prisons and in the end even taking away their Lives to make them Christians are so very improper in respect to the Design of them that they usually produce the quite contrary Effect For whereas all the use which Force can have for the advancing true Religion and the Salvation of Souls is as has already been shewed by disposing Men to submit to Instruction and to give a fair hearing to the Reasons which are offer'd for the enlightning their Minds and discovering the Truth to them These Cruelties have the Misfortune to be commonly look'd upon as so just a Prejudice against any Religion that uses them as makes it needless to look any further into it and to tempt Men to reject it as both false and detestable without ever vouchsafing to consider the rational Grounds and Motives of it This Effect they seldom fail to work upon the Sufferers of them And as to the Spectators if they be not beforehand well instructed in those Grounds and Motives they will be much tempted likewise not only to entertain the same Opinion of such a Religion but withal to judg much more favourably of that of the Sufferers who they will be apt to think would not expose themselves to such Extremities which they might avoid by compliance if they were not throughly satisfied
impartially to examine a Religion which they embraced upon such Inducements as ought to have no sway at all in the matter and therefore with little or no Examination of the proper Grounds of it What Human Method can be used to bring them to act like Men in an Affair of such Consequence and to make a wiser and more rational Choice but that of laying such Penalties upon them as may ballance the weight of those Prejudices which inclin'd them to prefer a false Way before the true and recover them to so much Sobriety and Reflection as seriously to put the Question to themselves Whether it be really worth the while to undergo such Inconveniencies for adhering to a Religion which for any thing they know may be false or for rejecting another if that be the case which for any thing they know may be true till they have brought it to the Bar of Reason and given it a fair trial there Here you again bring in such as prefer a false Way before a true To which having answered already I shall here say no more but that since our Church will not allow those to be in a false Way who are out of the Church of Rome because the Church of Rome which pretends Infallibity declares hers to be the only true Way certainly no one of our Church nor any other which claims not Infallibility can require any one to take the Testimony of any Church as a sufficient Proof of the Truth of her own Doctrine So that true and false as it commonly happens when we suppose them for our selves or our Party in essect signify just nothing or nothing to the purpose unless we can think that true or false in England which will not be so at Rome or Geneva and Vice versâ As for the rest of the Description of those on whom you are here laying Penalties I beseech you consider whether it will not belong to any of your Church let it be what it will Consider I say if there be none in your Church who have imbrac'd her Religion upon such Inducements as ought to have no sway at all in the matter and therefore with little or no Examination of the proper Grounds of it who have not been inclin'd by Prejudices who do not adhere to a Religion which for any thing they know may be false and who have rejected another which for any thing they know may be true If you have any such in your Communion and 't will be an admirable tho I fear but a little Flock that has none such in it consider well what you have done You have prepared Rods for them for which I imagine they will con you no Thanks For to make any tolerable Sense of what you here propose it must be understood that you would have Men of all Religions punished to make them consider whether it be really worth the while to undergo such Inconveniencies for adhering to a Religion which for any thing they know may be false If you hope to avoid that by what you have said of true and false and pretend that the supposed preference of the true Way in your Church ought to preserve its Members from your Punishment you manifestly triste For every Church's Testimony that it has chosen the true Way must be taken for it self and then none will be liable and your new Invention of Punishment is come to nothing Or else the differing Churches Testimonies must be taken one for another and then they will be all out of the tâ—…ue Way and your Church need Penalties as well as the rest So that upon your Principles they must all or none be punished Chuse which you please One of them I think you cannot escape What you say in the next words Where Instruction is stifly refused and all Admonitions and Perswasions prove vain and ineffectual differs nothing but in the way of expressing from Deaf to all Perswasions And so that is answer'd already In another place you give us another description of those you think ought to be punished in these words Those who refuse to embrace the Doctrine and submit to the Spiritual Government of the proper Ministers of Religion who by special designation are appointed to Exhort Admonish Reprove c. Here then those to be punished are such who refuse to imbrace the Doctrine and submit to the Government of the proper Ministers of Religion Whereby we are as much still at uncertainty as we were before who those are who by your Scheme and Laws suitable to it are to be punished Since every Church has as it thinks its proper Ministers of Religion And if you mean those that refuse to imbrace the Doctrine and submit to the Government of the Ministers of another Church then all Men will be guilty and must be punished even those of your Church as well as others If you mean those who refuse c. the Ministers of their own Church very few will incur your Penalties But if by these Proper Ministers of Religion the Ministers of some particular Church are intended why do you not name it Why are you so reserv'd in a Matter wherein if you speak not out all the rest that you say will be to no purpose Are Men to be punished for refusing to imbrace the Doctrine and submit to the Government of the proper Ministers of the Church of Geneva For this time since you have declared nothing to the contrary let me suppose you of that Church And then I am sure that is it that you would name For of what-ever Church you are if you think the Ministers of any one Church ought to be hearken'd to and obey'd it must be those of your own There are Persons to be punished you say This you contend for all through your Book and lay so much stress on it that you make the Preservation and Propagation of Religion and the Salvation of Souls to depend on it And yet you describe them by so general and equivocal Marks that unless it be upon Suppositions which no Body will grant you I dare say neither you nor any Body else will be able to find one guilty Pray find me if you can a Man whom you can judicially prove for he that is to be punished by Law must be fairly tried is in a wrong way in respect of his Faith I mean who is deaf to all Perswasions who flies from all Means of a right Information who refuses to imbrace the Doctrine and submit to the Government of the Spiritual Pastors And when you have done that I think I may allow you what Power you please to punish him without any prejudice to the Toleration the Author of the Letter proposes But why I pray all this bogling all this loose talking as if you knew not what you meant or durst not speak it out Would you be for punishing some Body you know not whom I do not think so ill of you Let me then speak out for you
Man that he might not blindly leave it to the choice of his Parish-Priest or Bishop or the Convocation what Faith or Worship he should imbrace 'T will be suspected care of a Party or any thing else rather than care of the Salvation of Mens Souls if having found out so useful so necessary a Remedy the only Method there is room left for you will apply it but partially and make trial of it only on those who you have truly least kindness for This will unavoidably give one Reason to imagine you do not think so well of your Remedy as you pretend who are so sparing of it to your Friends but are very free of it to Strangers who in other things are used very much like Enemies But your Remedy is like the Helleboraster that grew in the Woman's Garden for the cure of Worms in her Neighbours Children For truly it wrought too roughly to give it to any of her own Methinks your Charity in your present Persecution is much what as prudent as justisiable as that good Woman's I hope I have done you no Injury that I here suppose you of the Church of England If I have I beg your Pardon It is no offence of Malice I I assure you For I suppose no worse of you than I confess of my self Sometimes this Punishment that you contend for is to bring Men to act according to Reason and sound Judgment Tertius è Coelo cecidit Cato This is Reformation indeed If you can help us to it you will deserve Statues to be erected to you as to the Restorer of decay'd Religion But if all Men have not Reason and sound Judgment will Punishment put it into them Besides concerning this matter Mankind is so divided that he acts according to Reason and sound Judgment at Auspurg who who would be judged to do the quite contrary at Edinburgh Will Punishment make Men know what is Reason and sound Judgment If it will not 't is impossible it should make them act according to it Reason and sound Judgment are the Elixir it self the universal Remedy And you may as reasonably punish Men to bring them to have the Philosopher's Stone as to bring them to act according to Reason and sound Judgment Sometimes it is To put Men upon a serious and impartial Examination of the Controversy between the Magistrate and them which is the way for them to come to the Knowledg of the Truth But what if the Truth be on neither side as I am apt to imagine you will think it is not where neither the Magistrate nor the Dissenter is either of them of your Church how will the examining the Controversy between the Magistrate and him be the way to come to the Knowledg of the Truth Suppose the Controversy between a Lutheran and a Papist or if you please between a Presbyterian Magistrate and a Quaker Subject Will the examining the Controversy between the Magistrate and the Dissenting Subject in this case bring him to the Knowledg of the Truth If you say yes then you grant one of these to have the Truth on his side For the examining the Controversy between a Presbyterian and a Quaker leaves the Controversy either of them has with the Church of England or any other Church untouched And so one at least of those being already come to the Knowledg of the Truth ought not to be put under your Discipline of Punishment which is only to bring him to the Truth If you say no and that the examining the Controversy between the Magistrate and the Dissenter in this case will not bring him to the Knowledg of the Truth you consess your Rule to be salse and your Method to no purpose To conclude your System is in short this You would have all Men laying aside Prejudice Humour Passion c. examin the Grounds of their Religion and search for the Truth This I consess is heartily to be wish'd The means that you propose to make Men do this is that Dissenters should be punished to make them do so It is as if you had said Men generally are guilty of a Fault therefore lâ—…t one Sect who have the ill luck to be of an Opinion different from the Magistrate be punished This at first sight shocks any who has the least spark of Sense Reason or Justice But having spoken of this already and concluding that upon second thoughts you your self will be ashamed of it let us consider it put so as to be consistent with common Sense and with all the advantage it can bear and then let us see what you can make os it Men are negligent in examining the Religions they imbrace refuse or persist in therefore it is sit they should be punished to make them do it This is a Conâ—…e indeed which may without desiance to common Sâ—…nse be drawn from it This is the use the only use which you think Punishment can indirectly and at a distance have in matters of Religion You would have Men by Punishments dâ—…iven to examine What Religion To what end To bring them to the Knowledg of the Truth But I answer First Every one has not the Ability to do this Secondly Every one has not the opportunity to do it Would you have every poor Protestant for Example in the Palatinate examine throughly whether the Pope bâ—… insalliblâ—… or Head of the Church whether there be a Purgatory whether Saints are to be pray'd to or the Dead pray'd sor whether the Sâ—…ripture be the only Rule of Faith whether there be no Salvantion out of the Church and whether there be no Church without Bishops and an hundred other Questions in Controversy between the Papists and those Protestants and when he had master'd these go on to sortify himself against the Opinions and Objections of other Churches he dissers from This which is no small Task must be done before a Man can have brought his Religion to the Bar of Reason and given it fair trial there And if you will punish Men till this be done the Country-man must leave off plowing and sowing and betake himself to the Study of Greek and Latin and the Artisan must sell his Tools to buy Fathers and School-men and leave his Family to starve If something less than this will satisfy you pray tell me what is enough Have they considered and examined enough if they are satisfied themselves where the Truth lies If this be the limits of their Examination you will sind sew to punish unless you will punish them to make them do what they have done already For however he came by his Religion there is scarce any one to be found who does not own himself satisfied that he is in the right Or else must they be punished to make them consider and examine till they imbrace that which you choose for Truth If this be so what do you but in effect choose for them when yet you would have Men punished To bring them to such a
the Magistrate For if it be the Power of the Magistrate it is his And what need the People vest it in him unless there be need and it be the best course they can take to vest a Power in the Magistrate which he has already 2dly Another pleasant thing you here say is That the Power of the Magistrates is to bring men to such a care of their Salvation that they may not blindly leave it to the choice of any person or their own lusts or passions to prescribe to them what faith or worship they shall imbrace And yet that 't is their best course to vest a Power in the Magistrate liable to the same lusts and passions as themselves to chuse for them For if they vest a Power in the Magistrate to punish them when they dissent from his Religion to bring them to act even against their own inclination according to reason and sound judgment which is as you explain your self in another place to bring them to consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince them How far is this from leaving it to the choice of another man to prescribe to them what Faith or Worship they shall imbrace Especially if we consider that you think it a strange thing That the Author would have the care of every man's Soul left to himself alone So that this care being vested in the Magistrate with a Power to punish men to make them consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince them of the Truth of his Religion the choice is evidently in the Magistrate As much as it can be in the power of one man to chuse for another what Religion he shall be of which consists only in a Power of compelling him by Punishments to embrace it I do neither you nor the Magistrate Injury when I say that the Power you give the Magistrate of punishing men to make them consider reasons and arguments proper and sufficient to convince them is to convince them of the truth of his Religion and to bring them to it For Men will never in his opinion Act according to Reason and sound Judgment which is the thing you here say Men should be brought to by the Magistrate even against their own Inclination till they imbrace his Religion And if you have the brow of an Honest Man you will not say the Magistrate will ever punish you to bring you to consider any other Reasons and Arguments but such as are proper to convince you of the truth of his Religion and to bring you to that Thus you shift forwards and backwards You say The Magistrate has no Power to punish Men to compel them to his Religion but only to compel them to consider Reasons and Arguments proper to convince them of the truth of his Religion which is all one as to say no Body has Power to chuse your way for you to Jerusalem But yet the Lord of the Mannor has Power to punish you to bring you to consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince you of what That the way he goes in is the right and so to make you joyn in Company and go along with him So that in effect what is all your going about but to come at last to the same place again and put a Power into the Magistrate's hands under another pretence to compel Men to his Religion which use os Force the Author has sufficiently overthrown and you your self have quitted But I am tired to follow you so often round the same Circle You speak of it here as the most deplorable Condition imaginable that Men should be left to themselves and not be forced to consider and examine the Grounds of their Religion and search impartially and diligently after the truth This you make the great miscarriage of Mankind And for this you seem solicitous all through your Treatise to find out a Remedy and there is scarce a Leaf wherein you do not offer yours But what if after all now you should be found to prevaricate Men have contrived to themselves say you a great variety of Religions 'T is granted They seek not the Truth in this matter with that Application of Mind and that freedom of Judgment which is requisite 'T is confessed All the false Religions now on foot in the World have taken their rise from the slight and partial Consideration which Men have contented themselves with in searching after the true and Men take them up and persist in them for want of due Examination Be it so There is need of a Remedy for this and I have found one whose Success cannot be questioned Very well What is it Let us hear it Why Dissenters must be punished Can any Body that hears you say so believe you in earnest and that want of Examination is the thing you would have amended when want of Examination is not the thing you would have punished If want of Examination be the fault want of Examination must be punished if you are as you pretend fully satisfied that Punishment is the proper and only means to remedy it But if in all your Treatise you can shew me one place where you say That the Ignorant the Careless the Inconsiderate the Negligent in examining throughly the truth of their own and others Religion c. are to be punished I wâ—…ll allow your remedy for a good one But you have not said any thing like this and which is more I tell you before hand you dare not say it And whilst you do not the World has reason to judg that however want of Examination be a general Fault which you with great Vehemency have exaggerated yet you use it only for a pretence to punish Dissenters and either distrust your remedy that it will not cure this Evil or else care not to have it generally cur'd This evidently appears from your whole management of the Argument And he that reads your Tâ—…eatise with attention will be more confirm'd in this Opinion when he shall find that you who are so earnest to have Men punished to bring them to consider and examine that so they may discover the way to Salvation have not said one word of considering searching and hearkening to the Scripture which had been as good a rule for a Christian to have sent them to as to Reasons and Arguments prâ—…per to convince them of you know not what As to the Inâ—…ction and Government of the proper Ministers of Religion which who they are Men are yet â—…ar from being agreed Or as to the â—…formation of â—…hose who tell them they have mistakâ—…n their way and offer to shew them the right and to the like uncertain and dangerous Guides whâ—…ch were not those that our Saviour and the Apostles sent Men to but to the Scriptures Sâ—…arch the Scriptures for in them you think you have â—…nal Life says our Saviour to the unbelieving persecuting Jews 〈◊〉 5.39 And 't is the Scriptures which St. Pauls says
are able to make wise unto Salvation 〈◊〉 Tim. 3.15 Talk no more therefore if you have any care of your Reputation how much it is every Man's Interest not to be left to himself without Molestation without Punishment in matters of Religâ—…on Talk not of bringing Men to embrace the Truth that must save them by putting them upon Examination Talk no more of Force and Punishment as the only way left to bring Men to examine 'T is evident you mean nothing less For tho want of Examination be the only fault you complain of and Punishment be in your Opinion the only way to bring Men to it and this the whole design of your Book yet you have not once proposed in it that those who do not impartially examine should be forced to it And that you may not think I talk at random when I say you dare not I will if you please give you some Reasons for my saying so First Because if you propose that all should be punished who are ignorant who have not used such Consideration as is apt and proper to manifest the Truth but â—…ave been determined in the choice of their Religion by Impressions of Education Admiration of Persons wâ—…rldly Respects Prejudices and the like incompetent Motives and have takâ—…n up their Religion without examining it as they ought you will propose to have several of your own Church be it what it will pâ—…nished which would be a Proposition too apt to oâ—…end too many of it for you to venture on For whatever need there be of Reâ—…ormation every one will not thank you for proposing such an one as must begin at or at least reach to the House of God Secondly Because if you should propose that all those who are Ignorant Careless and Negligent in examining should be punished you would have little to say in this Question of Toleration For if the Laws of the State were made as they ought to be eqâ—…al to all the Subjects without distinction of â—…en of dâ—…erent Professions in Religion and the Faults to be amended by Punishments were impartially punished in all who are guilty of them this would immediately produce a perfect Toleration or shew the uselesness of Force in Matters of Religion If therefore you think it so necessâ—…ry as you say for the promoting of tâ—…ue Religion and the Salvation of Souls that Meâ—… shâ—…uld be punished to make â—…hem examine do but fiâ—…d a way to apply Fâ—…rce to all that have not throughly and impartially examined and you have my Consent For tho Force be not the proper means of promoting Religion yet there is no better way to snew the uselesless of it than the applying it equally to miscarrages in whomsoever sound and not to distinct Parties or Perswasions of Men for the Reformation of them alone when others are equally Faulty Thirdly Because without being for as large a Toleration as the Author proposes you cannot be truely and sincerely for a free and impartial Examination For whoever examines must have the Liberty to judg and follow his Judgment or else you put him upon Examination to no purpose And whether that will not as well lead Men from as to your Church is so much a venture that by your way of Writing 't is evident enough you are loath to hazard it and if you are of the National Church 't is plain your Brethren will not bear with you in the allowance of such a Liberty You must therefore either change your Method and if the want of Examination be that great and dangerous Fault you would have corrected you must equally punish all that are equally guilty of any neglect in this Matter and then take your only means your beloved Force and make the best of it or else you must put off your Mask and confess that you design not your Punishments to bring Men to Examination but to Conformity For the Fallacy you have used is too gross to pass upon this Age. What follows to Page 26. I think I have considered sufficiently already But there you have found out something worth notice In this Page out of abundant Kindness when the Dissenters have their Heads without any cause broken you provide them a Plaister For say you if upon such Examination of the Matter i. e. brought to it by the Magistrates Punishment they chance to find that the Truth does not lie on the Magistrate's side they have gain'd thus much however even by the Magistrate's misapplying his Power that they know better than they did before where the truth does lye Which is as true as if you should say Upon Examination I find such a one is out of the way to York therefore I know better than I did before that I am in the right For neither of you may be in the right This were true indeed if there were but two ways in all a Right and a Wrong But where there be an hundred ways and but one right your knowing upon Examination that that which I take is wrong makes you not know any thing better than before that yours is the right But if that be the best reason you have for it 't is Ninety eight to one still against you that you are in the wrong Besides he that has been punished may have examin'd before and then you are sure he gains nothing However you think you do well to incourage the Magistate in punishing and comfort the Man who has suffer'd unjustly by shewing what he shall gain by it Whereas on the contrary in a Discourse of this Nature where the bounds of Right and Wrong are enquired into and should be established the Magistrate was to be shew'd the bounds of his Authority and warn'd of the injury he did when he misapplies his Power and punish'd any man who deserv'd it not and not be sooth'd into injustice by consideration of gain that might thence accrue to the sufferer Shall we do evil that good may come of it There are a sort of People who are very wary of touching upon the Magistrate's duty and tender of shewing the bounds of his Power and the injustice and ill consequences of his misapplying it at least so long as it is misapply'd in favour of them and their Party I know not whether you are of their number But this I am sure you have the misfortune here to fall into their mistake The Magistrate you confess may in this case misapply his Power and instead of representing to hâ—…m the injustice of it and the account he must give to his Sovereign one day of this great Trust put into his hands for the equal protection of all his Subjects you pretend advantages which the Sufferer may receive from it And so instead of disheartning from you give incouragement to the mischief Which upon your Principle join'd to the natural thirst in man after Arbitrary Power may be carried to all manner of exorbitancy with some pretence of Right For thus stands your System If Force i