Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n
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A30942
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The disputation at Winchcomb November 9, 1653 together with the letters and testimonies pertinent thereto : wherein is offered some satisfaction in serveral points of religion.
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Barksdale, Clement, 1609-1687.
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1654
(1654)
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Wing B794; ESTC R23641
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73,761
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196
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Metropolitical Church you may learn of the most Reverend Primate Dr. Usher a man I think of great Authority among you also as among all Scholars most justly I refer you to his Geographical Tract of the Asian Diocese Tr. Return to the Text Mat. 18. v. 19. I shall prove it undeniably that a single Church hath an independent power But first will you grant me that two or three may be taken for a small Congregation B. Yes I desire to grant you all I can without injury to the Truth Tr. Then thus I argue Where is the Duty and the Blessing there is the Power But in a small Congregation where two or three c. is both the duty and the Blessing Therefore there is also the Power namely of Excommunication B. Where is the duty c. You leave out a very necessary word Independent For supposing that a power of Excommunication were in a particular Congregation I cannot grant it is there independently but there may be an Appeal But did you ever hear of an Indepent Church of two or three Tr. Yes there may be a Church of so few and that independent B. A private Church I grant not a publick enabled with power of Excommunication a power supreme Lo you here is Popery in a little volume an independent absolute supreme Church made up of two or three H. Did you not grant to Mr. Tr. that two or three may be taken for any small number now you recall your words You know if there be twenty in a company we sometimes say there be two or three B. No indeed that 's too far wide Let the people judge of this whether any will say there be two or three if there be twenty persons met in a room Two or three that is twenty silence I pray But Sir the words of Christ are verified if there be but barely two And therefore I may justly think it too small a number to make the Church mentioned v 17. It cannot be for this reason The Church in the 17. v. is of more authority and more in number than the two or three mentioned in the second admonition v. 16. But two or three v. 19 20. are not of more authority nor more in number than the two or three mentioned v. 16. Therefore the two or three v. 19 20. are not the Church mentioned v. 17. Answer this and you shall hold your Supremacy to the worlds end for me H. You hold an Appeal from the Church to the Civil Power which is plain Erastianism B. Erastianisme I shall make it appear to be Christianisme But what was Erastus pray H. I came not here to be Catechized by you B. Erastus was one that denied the power of Excommunication in the Church which I do not but desire it may come into practice upon true Rules If you would know Erastus see the Book of Binding and loosing at large And noble Sir you that are a Civil Magistrate let me call you to witness that I stand here an Advocate truly to plead for the Supreme authority of this Land and I undertake to shew that the Highest powers in the Commonwealth have also the Highest Rule of the Church and may receive Appeals from any Christians that complain of wrong in any Congregation whatsoever Col. A. The Highest Powers haply doubt of that Authority and forbear to execute any such till they be more fully satisfied B. Were I worthy I would request them to know their power and use it for the restitution of Primitive Episcopacy They doubt you say but Sir these men flatly deny that authority of the Civil Magistrate in matters of Religion H. And how I pray do you prove it B. Let every soul be subject to the Higher Powers Every man saith St. Chrysostome whether Lay or Clergy Col. A. There is no such distinction of Lay and Clergy in the Scripture All the Lords people are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his Portion B. Sir you say most true that All the Lords people are his Portion that is as selected and called out of the World but his Ministers are more peculiarly his as called from among his People and admitted nearer to him being separated for the Ministration of Holy things But however all sorts of men I say whether Ministers or others must be subject to the Highest powers Tr. Yea in Civil things they must be subject not in Ecclesiastical The Powers are distinct B. They are distinct in their Objects or Matters about which they are exercised they are united in the same Subjects or Persons that are supreme in all causes both Eccleclesiasticall and Civill W. You were wont to pray for the King in that stile B. Yes when the King was and now they that have the Kingly power may withall assume the same title if they please W. By no means Temporall Governors power Spirituall B. The power of Civill Magistrates in matters of religion is called Ecclesiasticall or Spirituall in respect of the object of it about which it is conversant not in respect of the manner of operating For the supreme powers do not minister in holy things in the Word and Sacraments and censures but they take care and provide that these ministrations be rightly and orderly performed H. But how prove you an appeal to be made to the highest power in a Church-case B. Saint Paul appealed unto Caesar Acts 25. 10 11. Tr. Yea but that appeal was in a cause concerning sedition B. Hear himself speak For the Resurrection of the dead am I called in question Act. 23. 6. W. That was said in policy to divide the Pharisees and Sadduces B. However the Apostle spake nothing but the truth as appears also by the words of Festus Act. 23. 19. The question was whether he might preach Jesus and the Resurrection Tr. That Caesar was Nero a heathen tyrant and persecutor a fit man to meddle with Religion B. He was it seems fir for Paul to appeal unto for want of a better and had he acquitted the Apostle he had thereby given him a right against the Jews See Grotius of Authority concerning this particular and the whole matter As for the Supremacy of Christian Kings this is one argument If the Jewish Kings had power in matters of Religion then have the Christian Kings the like power But the Jewish Kings c. To. Let me adde another Argument out of the Prophet concerning the Christian Church Kings shall be her nursing Fathers and Queenes her nursing Mothers W. Read out the verse and you are answered They shall bow down to thee with their faces to the earth Is 49. 23. Here is subjection rather than superiority To. A superiority of Government and Patronage is included in the name of Father but these Fathers are Sons of the Church too in another sense and subject to the spirituall guides of their soules subjection and Government may consist together in severall respects B. Will you turne to the Text in Matth. 18. once more and hear a
the Magistrate So did mady zealous Preachers contend against sports on the Lords day tolerated once and so do some still contend against Usury tolerated yet And for Forms and Discipline the Old way you know was preached down when the Laws and Magistrates did endeavour to uphold it These preachers I cannot defend but would say something for them if it had been a Form tolerated only and not establisht For we look upon a Form tolerated as a thing not approved by the State but winked at for a time and dispenst with to content a party or side A Form tolerated is at most but for triall and so long as it is put to the triall it may be contended against not by force but by argument and disswasion Nor is this to oppose the State or cross their Intention for til they declare their Mind it is presumption in a private man to intrude into their Counsells And therefore while things are under Consultation as now it cannot be justly called opposition of the Magistrate if one dispute in a familiar letter against that which they tolerate Nay the liberty of familiar letters you know is of greater extent For my part there is none gives more to the Magistrate in matters of Religion that I do none is more ready to submit to laws in all things not cleerly contrary to the Highest Law And for the present Toleration although I think I may safely take the liberty is not this also a part of the Toleration to discourse of such matters either by letter or otherwise yet I will obey your Advice as I said and I cannot chuse but commend your Moderation in not judging any man scandalous for not being of your Form Though out of Form I am really Sir your Servant in Christ Another to the same not long aster GOod Sir Having not the leasure at present to attend you at Stow I send my letter to to salute you and your good company I have considered upon your Argument yesterday taking advantage from the rubric in our Service-Book That Catechizing and Confirmation must go before the Sacrament of of the Lords Supper Therefore your New Covenant The Antecedent is in the rubric after the Form of Confirmation And I cannot defend the former neglect of Confirmation in the Bishop nor any present neglect of Catechizing by any Minister But seeing there is now none of that Confirmation to be had a great want in the Church I think what if the Minister do his part in instructing people in the Catechism and the people not only make Confession of Faith but profess Repentance Charity Obedience nor hath the Minister any assurance no nor just ground of suspicion that they are not sincere shall he not admit them to the Lords Table I would not presume to condemn all the pious and learned Ministers of the Church of England that have administred the Sacrament upon such tearms When we cannot have all done we would we must be content with what can be done as the case standeth Well Confirmation I grant is commanded as convenient and profitable not so necessary but that in case it be wanting the Sacrament may be administred Now to the sequel How your Covenant can serve in place of Confirmation I do not yet understand It consisteth only of the Confession resolution and promise of the Covenanters whereas Confirmation or laying on of hands is an act of the Bishop to certify the person confirmed of Gods favour and gracious goodness towards him and it is joyned with prayer and benediction wherwith the party is thought to be strengthned and encreas'd in grace Your Covenant I grant is somewhat like the Answer in our Catechism where the Catechized undertaketh the Baptismall vow made in his name and promiseth by Gods help to perform it And surely that is done by all that come with us to the Lords Table And approaching to it in the quality of such as repent them truly of all their sins are in charity with their neighbours and intend to lead a new life they do renew their Covenant and in taking the Sacrament have the seal thereof as t is very requisite nor do I yet see how Ministers can refuse to give it Sir shall I be bold in secret to ask you what great deliverance is the ground of your Covenant I doubt of it because upon the late deliverance from the Scotish Invasion all hopes were cut off of reforming this Church according to the pattern of Scotland which unless I am deceived was one end of the Scotish Covenant receiv'd in England I deny not great Deliverances but I take advantage from the Scots Covenant and say that the Friends thereof instead of Deliverance have had a totall overthrow Give me a little light in this and reconcile the Covenants in the religious part of them for I meddle not with temporals That which you said as I take it of peoples having excommunicated themselves by a defection from the Gospel in life and manners which is you say in effect all one as to fall from the Faith must be explaned by you For Apostacy from the Faith and profession of Christ cuts a member off from the Church and Corruption in manners doth but make a diseased member and such a one must be cured gently I remember a Covenant somewhere in Mr. Rogers his â— Treatises a Book Dedicated to King James I would gladly know whether such a one as that might not serve your turn Your Servant C. B. Reader I am tempted by the mention of the Covenant in the former Letter here to insert what seems to have been written about this time Queries of a Christian Brother which he desires may be answered before he enter into the Covenant held forth at Winchoomb 1. WHether it be lawful for any number of people thus to combine without direction of Authority which is wont to be jealous of Meetings lest under pretence of piety somewhat else be intended 2. Whether all that is moral in this Covenant be not conteined in the Prayer of all Communicants the old way to live a godly righteous and sober life and in the profession to repent of former sins and lead a new life 3. Whether all that are Catechized the old way do not take on them as good a Covenant when they answer Yes verily and by Gods help so I will c. 4. What is meant by the corrupt and formal way of worship whereof they are ashamed If the worship established in the Church of England is it not a false and scandalous expression 5. What is meant by all other Godly disciplin if the use of the Keys where have these Covenanters any Commission 6. Whether they can be said to keep the Unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace that innovate in the Church and divide without cause Queries upon the Covenant at Winchcomb 1652. 1. VVHether it were not much better and more needful for the People to repent their departing from the Vow of