go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was Translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain Number of Chapters a Day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so what other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me Sealed up in Hebrew Greek and Latine and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the salvation of my Soul and the Churches peace A. I confess this Licence of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late King's Reign and did then appear to the Disturbance of the Commonwealth but to return to the Story Those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was professed and Governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better Statesmen in points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries and in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but it was defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not onely the Citizens of London were almost all of them at their Devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the Concurrence of a great many Gentlemen that did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and as these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church Government Canons and Common Prayer Book so did the other make them in love with Democracie by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their Discourse and Communication with people in the Country continnually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyrany leaving the people to collect of themselves that this Tyrany was the present Government of the State and as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Q. Eliz. and though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the Chief leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less Learned And the Gentlemen envying the Privy Council whom they thought less wise than themselves for 't is a hard matter for men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any Ability requisite for the Government of a Commonwealth especially having read the Glorious Histories and the Sententious Politick of the Ancient Popular Government of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular Government though no Tyrant was ever so cruel as a Popular Assembly passed by the name of Liberty The Presbyterian Ministers in the beginning of the Reign of Q. Eliz. did not because they durst not Publickly Preach against the Discipline of the Church but not long after by the favour perhaps of some great Courtier they went abroad Preaching in most of the Market Towns of England as the Preaching Fryers had formerly done upon working days in the morning in which these and others of the same Tenets that had charge of Souls both by the Manner and Matter of their Preaching applied themselves wholly to the winning of the People to a likeing of their Doctrines and good Opinion of their Persons And first for the manner of their Preaching They so framed their Countenance and Gesture at the entrance into the Pulpit and their Pronunciation both in their Prayer and Sermon and used the Scripture phrase whether understood by the People or not as that no Tragedian in the World could have Acted the part of a right godly man better then these did insomuch that a man unacquainted with such Art could never suspect any Ambitious Plot in them to raise Sedition against the State as they then had designed or doubt that the Vehemence of their Voice for the same words with the usual Pronunciation had been of little force and forcedness of their Gesture and Looks could arise from any thing else but zeal to the service of God And by this Art they came into such credit that numbers of men used to go forth of their own Parishes and Towns on working days leaving their Calling and on Sunday leaving their own Churches to hear them Preach in other places and to Despise their own and all other Preachers that acted not as well as they And as for those Ministers that did not usually Preach but instead of Sermons did read to the People such Homilies as the Church had appointed they esteemed and called them Dumb Dogs Secondly For the matter of their Sermons because the Anger of the People in the late Roman Usurpation was then fresh they saw there could be nothing more gracious with them then to Preach against such other Points of the Romish Religion as the Bishops had not yet condemned that so receding farther
every Man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like points are the study of the curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of men whom the Scriptures had taught belief in Christ love towards God obedience towards the King and sobriety of Behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the Disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scriptures to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their interpretation for the word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know more does them no good but in case any of these unnecessary Doctrines shall be Authorized by the Laws of the King or other state I say it is the duty of every Subject not to speak against them in asmuch as 't is every Mans Duty to obey him or them that have the Sovereign power and the wisdom of all such powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to sedition or disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had there breeding in the Universities for such curious questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those politick questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastical Government and there they are furnished with arguments for liberty out of the works of Aristotle Plato Câ—cero Seâ—ica and 〈◊〉 of the Histories of 〈…〉 for their disputation against the 〈…〉 power of their 〈…〉 therefore I dispare of any 〈…〉 our selves till the 〈…〉 their studies to the 〈…〉 obedience to the Laws of the 〈…〉 to his publick Edicts under the great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid reason backt with the Authority of so many learned men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any victory can do over the Rebells but I am afraid 't is unpossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of state as is necessary for the Business seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all points for the Kings power presently after that King Henry the 8. was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are Govern'd and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferiour Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their spiritual power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by successible Imposition of hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the hands of Popes Bishops whose Authority they had cast off for though they were content that the Divine right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nounes and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters of Divinity for Religion has been for a long time and is now by most people taken for the same thing with Divinity to the great advantage of the Clergie B. And especially now amongst the Presbyterians for I see few that are esteemed by them very good Christians besides such as can repeat their Sermons and wrangle for them about the Interpretation of the Scripture and fight for them also with their Bodies or purses when they shal be required to believe in Christ is nothing with them unless you believe as they bid you Charity is nothing with them unless it be Charity and liberality to them and partaking with them in faction How we can have peace while this is our Religion I cannot tell Haeret Laterilethalis arundo The seditious Doctrine of the Presbyterians hath been stuck so hard in the Peoples heads and memories I cannot say into their hearts for they understood nothing in it but that they may lawfully rebel That I fear the Common-wealth will never be cured A. The 2 Great vertues that were severally in Henry the 7. Henry the 8. When they shall be Joyntly in one King will easily cure it that of Henry the 7 was without much noise of the people to â—ill his Coffers that of Henry the 8 was an early severity but this without the former cannot be exercised B. This that you say looks me thinks like an advice to the King to let them alone till he have gotten ready money enough to levy and maintain a sufficient Army and then to fall on them and destroy them A. God forbid that so horrible Unchirstian and unhuman design should ever enter into the Kings heart I would have him have money enough readily to raise an Army able to suppress any Rebellion and to take from the Enemies all hope of success that they may not dare to trouble him in the Reformation of the Universities but to put none to death without the Aâ—tual committing such crimes as are already made Capital by the Laws the Core of Rebellion as you have seen by this and read of other Rebellions are the Universities which nevertheless are not to be cast away but to be better disciplin'd that is to say that the Politicks there taught be made to be as true poliâ—icks should be such as are fit to make men know that it is their duty to obey aâ— Laws whatsoever that shall be by the Authority of the King enacted till by the same Authority they shall be repeal'd suâ—â— as are fit to make Men understand that the Civil Laws are Gods Laws as they that make them to make Men know that the people and the Church are one thing and have but one Head the â—ing and that no Man has Title to Govern under him that has it not from him that the King owes his Crown to God onlâ— and to no Man Ecclesiastick or other and that the Religion they teach there be a quiet waiting â—or the coming again of our blessed Saviour and
it is for a State to have their Subjects confess their secret thoughts to Spies B. Yes as much as Eternal Torture is more terrible than Death so much they would fear the Clergy more than the King A. And though perhaps the Roman Clergy will not maintain that a Priest hath power to remit Sins absolutely but only with a condition of Repentance yet the people were never so instructed by them but were left to believe that whensoever they had Absolution their precedent Sins were all discharged when their Penance which they took for Repentance was performed in the same time began the Article of Transubstantiation for it had been disputed a long time before in what manner a man did eat the Body of our Saviour Jesus Christ as being a point very difficult for a man to conceive and imagine clearly but now it was made very clear that the Bread was Transubstantiated into Christs Body and so was become no more Bread but Flesh. B. It seems then that Christ had many Bodies and was in as many places at once as there were Communicants I think the Priests then were so wanton as to insist upon the dulness not only of common people but also of Kings and their Councelors A. I am now in a Narration not in a Disputation and therefore I would have you at this time to consider nothing else but what effect this Doctrine would work upon Kings and their Subjects in relation to the Clergy who only were able of a piece of Bread to make our Saviours Body and thereby at the hour of death to save their Souls B. For my part it would have an effect on me to make me think them Gods and to stand in awe of them as of God himself if he were visibly present A. Besides these and other Articles tending to the upholding of the Pope's Authority they had many fine points in their Ecclesiastical Policy conducing to the same end of which I will mention only such as were established within the same time for then it was the Order came up of Preaching-Friars that wandred up and down with power to Preach in what Congregation they pleased and were sure enough to instil into the people nothing that might lessen their obedience to the Church of Rome but on the contrary whatsoever might give advantage to it against the Civil Power besides they privately insinuated themselves with Women and Men of weak judgments confirming their adherence to the Pope and urging them in the time of their sickness to be beneficial to it by contribution of Money or building Religious Houses or works of Piety and necessary for the remission of their Sins B. I do not remember that I read of any Kingdom or State in the World where liberty was given to any private man to call the people together and make Orations frequently to them or at all without first making the State acquainted except only in Christendom I believe the Heathen K. foresaw that a few such Orators would be able to make a great Sedition Moses did indeed command to read the Scriptures and expound them in the Synagogues every Sabbath day but the Scriptures then were nothing else but the Laws of the Nation delivered unto them by Moses himself I believe it would do no hurt if the Laws of England also were often read and expounded in the several Congregations of English-men at times appointed that they may know what to do for they know already what to believe A. I think that neither the Preaching of Friers nor Monks nor of Parochial Priests tended to teach men what but whom to believe for the Power of the Mighty hath no foundation but in the opinion and belief of the people and the end which the Pope had in multiplying Sermons was no other but to prop and enlarge his own Authority over all Christian Kings and States B. Within the same time that is between the time of the Emperour Charles the Great and of King Edward the Third of England began their second Policy which was to bring Religion into an Art and thereby to maintain all their Degrees of the Roman Church by Disputation not only from the Scriptures but also from the Phylosophy of Aristotle both Moral and Natural and to that end the Pope exhorted the said Emperour by Letter to erect Schools of all kinds of Literature and from thence began the Institution of Universities for not long after the Universities began in Paris and in Oxford It is true that there were Schools in England before that time in several places for the instruction of Children in the Latine Tongue that is to say in the Tongue of the Church but for an University of Learning there was none erected till that time though it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monastries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long before many more were added to them by the Devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy men and the Dicipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easy to preferment both in Church and Commonwealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect received was the Maintenance of the Pope's Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School Divines who striving to make good many points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Phylosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may conceive that shall consider the writing of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or of any other School Divines of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admired by two sorts of men otherwise prudent enough The one of which sorts were those that were already Devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admired the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine so that all sorts of people were fully resolved that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more then what was due to him I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such authority will have but a hard match of it for want of men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Pope's quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in
raised to fight against him A. Nay farther they put to the King's Accompts the 30000 l. given to the Scots without which they would not have Invaded England besides many other things that I now remember not B. I did not think there had been so great Impudence and Villany in Mankind A. You have not observ'd the world long enough to see all that 's ill Such was their Remonstrance as I have told you with it they sent a Petition containing three points First That His Majesty would deprive the Bishops of their Votes in Parliament and remove such Oppressions in Religion Church Government and Discipline as they had brought in Secondly That he would remove from his Council all such as should promote the Peoples Grievances and Imploy in his great and publick Affairs such as the Parliament should confide in Thirdly That he would not give away the Lands Escheated to the Crown by the Rebellion in Ireland B. This last point methinks was not wisely put in at this time it should have been reserv'd till they had subdued the Rebels against whom there were yet no Forces sent over 'T is like selling the Lions Skin before they had kill'd him But what answer was made to the other two Propositions A. What answer should be made but a Denial About the same time the King himself Exhibited Articles against six persons of the Parliament five whereof were of the House of Commons and one of the House of Lords accusing them of High Treason and upon the fourth of January went himself to the House of Commons to demand those five of them but private notice having been given by some Treacherous person about the King they had absented themselves and by that means frustrated His Majesties Intention and after he was gone the House making a hainous matter of it and a High Breach of their Priviledges adjourned themselves into London there to sit as a General Committee pretending they were not safe at Westminster for the King when he went to the House to demand those persons had somewhat more attendance with him but not otherwise armed than his servants used to be than he ordinarily had and would not be pacified though the King did afterwards wave the prosecution of those persons unless he would also discover to them those that gave him Counsel to go in that manner to the Parliament-House to the end they might receive condign punishment which was the Word they used instead of Cruelty B. This was a harsh Demand Was it not enough that the King should forbear his Enemies but also that he must betray his Friends If they thus Tyraniâ—e over the King before they have gotten the Soveraign Power into their Hands how will they Tyranize over their Fellow-Subjects when they have gotten it A. So as they did B. How long staid that Committee in London A. Not above 2 or 3 Days and then were brought from London to the Parliament-House by Water in great Triumph guarded with a tumultuous number of Armed Men there to sit in security in despite of the King and make Traiterous Acts against Him such and as many as they listed and under favour of these Tumults to frighten away from the House of Peers all such as were not of their own Faction for at this time tâ—e Rabble was so insolent that scarce any of the Bishops durst go to the House for fear of Violence upon their Persons insomuch that Twelve of them excused themselves of Coming thither and by way of Perition to the King remonstrated that they were not permitted to go quietly to the Performance of that Duty and protesting against all Determinations as of none Effect that should pass in the House of Lords during their forced Absence which the House of Commons taking hold of sent up to the Peers one of their Members to accuse them of High Treason whereupon Ten of them were sent to the Tower after which time there was no more words of their High Treason but there passed a Bill by which they were deprived of their Votes in Parliament And to this Bill they got the Kings Assent and in the beginning of Sept. after they Voted the Bishops should have no more to do in the Government of the Church but to this they had not the Kings Assent the War being now begun B. What made the Parliament so averse to Episcopacy and especially the House of Lords whereof the Bishops were Members For I see no reason why they should do it to gratifie a number of poor Parish Priests that were Presbyterians and that were never likely to serve the Lords but on the contrary to do their best to pull down their power and subject them to their Synods and Classes A. For the Lords very few of them did perceive the intention of the Presbyterians and besides that they durst not I believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower-House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenants and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democrasie and Depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should Act for their purposes But not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourably laid to their charge the main of the pulling them down was the Envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be govern'd A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-Bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be reveng'd on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their purses and win to their service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of Governing the whole world What is it they are Learned in is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preacht but matter of Philosophy for Religion in it self admits of no Controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls
thus The Laws of the Aethiopians seem very different from those of other Nations and especially about the Election of their Kings for the Priests propound some of the Chief Men among them named in a Catalogue and when the God which according to a certain Custom is carried about to Feastings does accept of him the Multitude Elect for their King and presently adore and honour him as a God put into the Government by Divine Providence The King being chosen he has the manner of his Life limited to him by the Laws and does all other things according to the Custom of the Country neither rewarding nor punishing any man otherwise than from the begining is establisht amongst them by Law nor use they to put any man to death though he be condemn'd to it but to send some Officer to him with a Token of Death who seeing the Token goes presently to his own house and kills himself presently after But the strangest thing of all is that which they do concerning the Death of their Kings for the Priests that live in Meroe and spend their time about the worship and honour of the gods and are in greatest Authority when they have a mind to it send a Messenger to the King to bid him die for that the gods have given such order and that the Commandments of the Immortals are not by any means to be neglected by those that are by nature Mortal using also other speeches to him with men of simple Judgment that have not reason enough to dispute against those unnecessary Commands as being educated under an old and indelible Custom are content to admit of therefore in former times the Kings did obey the Priests not as mastered by force and Arms but as having their reason mastered by superstition But in the time of Ptolomy the second Ergamenes King of the Aethiopians having had his Breeding in Philosophy after the manner of the Greeks being the first that durst dispute their power took heart as befitted a King came with souldiers to a place called Abaton where was then the golden Temple of the Aethiopians killed all the Priests abolished the Custom and rectified the Kingdom according to his will B. Though they that were kill'd were most damnable Impostors yet the Act was cruel A. It was so But were not the Priests cruel to cause their Kings whom a little before they adored as Gods to make away themselves The King kill'd them for the safety of his person they him out of Ambition or love of Change The King's Act may be coloured with the good of his People the Priests had no pretence against their Kings who were certainly very godly or else would never have obeyed the Command of the Priests by a Messenger unarmed to kill themselves Our late King the best King perhaps that ever was you know was murdered having been first persecuted by War at the Incitement of Presbyterian Ministers who are therefore guilty of the Death of all that fell in that War which were I believe in England Scotland and Ireland near one hundred thousand persons Had it not been much better that those seditious Ministers which were not perhaps a thousand had been all kill'd before that they had Preached It had been I confess a great Massacre but the killing of a hundred thousand is a greater B. I am glad the Bishops were out at this business as ambitious as some say they are it did not appear in that business for they were Enemies to them that were in it A. But I intend not by these Quotations to commend either the Divinity nor the Philosophy of those Heathen People but to shew only what the Reputation of those Sciences can effect among the People For their Divinity was nothing but Idolatry and their Philosophy excepting the knowledge of the Aegyptian Priests and from them the Chaldaeans had gotten by long Observation and Study in Astronomy Geometry and Arithmetick very little and that in great part abused in Astrology and Fortune-telling whereas the Divinity of the Clergy in this Nation now considered apart from the mixture that has been introduced by the Church of Rome and in part retained here of the babling Philosophy of Aristotle and other Greeks that has no Affinity with Religion and serves only to breed Disaffection Dissention and finally Sedition and Civil War as we have lately found by dear Experience in the Differences between the Presbyterians and Episcopals is the true Religion But for these Differences both Parties as they were in Power not only suppressed the Tenents of one another but also whatsoever Doctrine lookt with an ill aspect upon their Interest and consequently all true Philosophy especially Civil and Moral which can never appear propitious to Ambition or to an Exemption from Obedience due to the Soveraign Power After the King had accused the Lord Kimbolton a Member of the Lords House and Hollis Haslâ—rig Hampden Prinn and Stroud Five Members of the Lower House of High Treason and after the Parliament had Voted out the Bishops from the House of Peers they pursued especially two things in their Petitions to His Majesty the one was that the King would declare who were the persons that advised him to go as he did to the Parliament-House to apprehend them and that he would leave them to the Parliament to receive condign punishment and this they did to stick upon His Majesty the dishonour of Deserting his Friends and betraying them to his Enemies the other was that he would allow a Guard out of the City of London to be commanded by the Earl of Essex for which they pretended they could not else sit in safety which pretence was nothing but an upbraiding of His Majesty for coming to Parliament better accompanied than ordinary to seize the said five seditious Members B. I see no reason in petitioning for a Guard they should determine it to the City of London in particular and the Command by name to the Earl of Essex unless they meant the King should understand it a Guard against himself A. Their meaning was that the King should understand it so and as I verily believe they meant he should take it as an affront and the King himself understanding it so denied to grant it though he were willing if they could not otherwise be satisfied to Command such a Guard to wait upon them as he would be responsible for to God Almighty Besides this the City of London petition'd the King put upon it no doubt by some Members of the Lower House to put the Tower of London into the hands of persons of Trust meaning such as the Parliament should approve of And so appoint a Guard for the safety of His Majesty and the Parliament This method of bringing petitions in a Tumultary Manner by great Multitudes of Clamorous people was ordinary with the House of Commons whose Ambition could never have been served by way of Prayer and Request without extraordinary terror After the King had waved the
therefore they might govern well enough if they had honesty and wit enough The first Act of the Rump was the Exclusion of those Members of the House of Commons which had been formerly kept out by violence for the procuring of an Ordinance for the Kings Tryal for these men had appear'd against the Ordinance of Non-Addresses and therefore to be excluded because they might else be an impediment to their future designs B. Was it not rather because in the Authority of few they thought the fewer the better both in regard of their shares and also of a nearer approach in every one of them to the Dignity of a King A. Yes certainly that was their principal end B. When these were put out why did not the Counties and Burroughs chuse others in their places A. They could not do that without Order from the House After this they constituted a Council of forty persons which they termed a Council of State whose Office was to execute what the Rump should command B. When there was neither King nor House of Lords they could not call themselves a Parliament for a Parliament is a meeting of the King Lords and Commons to confer together about the businesses of the Common-wealth with whom did the Rump confer A. Men may give to their Assembly what Name they please what signification soever such Name might formerly have had and the Rump took the Name of Parliament as most suitable to their purpose and such a Name as being Venerable among the people for many hundred years had countenanced and sweetned Subsidies and other Levies of Money otherwise very unpleasant to the Subject They took also afterwards another name which was Custodes Libertatis Angliae which Title they used only in their Writs issuing out of the Courts of Justice B. I do not see how a Subject that is tyed to the Laws can have more liberty in one form of Government than another A. Howsoever to the people that understand by Liberty nothing but leave to do what they list it was a Title not ingrateful Their next work was to set forth a publick Declaration that they were fully resolv'd to maintain the Fundamental Laws of the Nation as to the preservation of the Lives Liberties and Proprieties of the people B. What did they mean by the Fundamental Laws of the Nation A. Nothing but to abuse the people for the only Fundamental Law in every Commonwealth is to obey the Laws from time to time which he shall make to whom the People have given the Supreme Power How likely then are they to uphold the Fundamental Laws that had murdered him who was by themselves so often acknowledged their lawful Soveraign Besides at the same time that this Declaration came forth they were erecting the High Court of Justice which took away the lives of Duke Hamilton the Earl of Holland and the Lord Capel whatsoever they meant by a Fundamentall Law the erecting of this Court was a breach of it as being warranted by no former Law or Example in England At the same time also they levied Taxes by Souldiers and permitted Free Quarter to them and did many other Actions which if the King had done they would have said had been done against the Liberty and Propriety of the Subject B. What silly things are the common sort of people to be cozen'd as they were so grosly A. What sort of people as to this matter are not of the common sort the craftiest Knaves of all the Rump were no wiser than the rest whom they cozen'd for the most of them did believe that the same things which they impos'd upon the generality were just and reasonable and especially the great Haranguers and such as pretended to Learning for who can be a good Subject in a Monarchy whose Principles are taken from the Enemies of Monarchy such as were Cicero Seneca Cato and other Polititians of Rome and Aristotle of Athens who spake of Kings but as Wolves and other ravenous Beasts You may perhaps think a man has need of nothing else to know the duty he owes to his Governour and what right he has to order him but a good Natural Wit But it is otherwise for it is a Science and built upon sure and clear Principles and to be learn'd by deep and careful study or from Masters that have deeply studied it And who was there in the Parliament or in the Nation that could find out those evident Principles and derive from thence the necessary Rules of Justice and the necessary Connexion of Justice and Peace The people have one day in seven the leisure to hear Instructions and there are Ministers appointed to teach them their duty But how have these Ministers perform'd their Office A great part of them namely the Presbyterian Ministers throughout the whole War instigated the people against the King so did also Independent and other fanatick Ministers The rest contented with their Livings preached in their Parishes points of Controversie to Religion importinent but to the breach of Charity among themselves very effectual or else Eloquent things which the people either understood not or thought themselves not concern'd in But this sort of Preachers as they did little good so they did little hurt the mischief proceeded wholly from the Presbyterian Preachers who by a long practis'd Histrionick Faculty preached up the Rebellion powerfully B. To what end A. To the end that the State becoming popular the Church might be so too and govern'd by an Assembly and consequently as they thought seeing Politicks are subservient to Religion they might govern and thereby satisfie their covetous humour with Riches and also their malice with Power to undo all men that admir'd not their wisdom Your calling the people silly things oblig'd me by this digression to shew you that it is not want of Wit but want of the Science of Justice that brought them into these troubles Perswade if you can that man that has made his Fortune or made it greater or an Eloquent Orator or a ravishing Poet or a subtil Lawyer or but a good Hunter or a cunning Gamester that he has not a good Wit and yet there were of all these a great many so silly as to be deceived by the Rump They wanted not wit but the knowledge of the Causes and grounds upon which one person has a right to govern and the rest an obligation to obey which grounds are necessary to be taught the people who without them cannot live long in peace among themselves B. Let us return if you please to the proceedings of the Rump A. In the rest of the year they voted a new Stamp for the Coyn of this Nation They considered also of Agents to be sent into foreign parts and having lately receiv'd Applause from the Army for their work done by the High Court of Justice and encouragement to extend the same farther they perfected the said High Court of Justice in which were tryed Duke Hamilton the Earl of Holland