own sakes principally and for the Kings sake only inasmuch as they hoped for more Indulgence from a merciful Prince then from a Herd of men who could not be content to shave their Fathers beards but must cut their throats Yet Sir I am satisfied It s true that you as you say Owe great Allegiance to the King but I never could be satisfied that ye paid so much nor no more then utmost necessity compell'd from you and I am now in greater dissatisfaction by the story of the ten Miles and no more Pap. You may still Sir rest under the same dissatisfaction and must so do until you understand throughly the Distinction I before mentioned Phy. As for your distinction of the Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papist what ever was intended by the Inventer of the Knack I take it to be a 〈◊〉 Notion set up to stifle due Reflections on old Errors for most certainly an English Papist as Papist abstracted from doctrinal opinions is a Traytor to the King of England Pap. Hold Sir you intend not to quarrel me on the road sure and begin with such rude Language Phy. Pray why may not I call an English Papist Traytor as well as you call an English Protestant Heretick the crimes are both Capital Pap. If you understood any Distinction you would answer your self Phy. You crie Distinction Distinction Court of Rome Church of Rome but what is all that to the Church of England I suppose the Author of that so much magnified Distinction might mean thaâ— by nâ—â— being of the Court of Rome he may hold That the Pope haâ— not right to any temporal Jurisdiction in our Kings dominions but that our King is absolute Monarch there that 's something indeed and diversifies him from a de fide man and Jesuit who hold the contrary But yet he by being of the Church of Rome must hold that the Pope has right to some spiritual jurisdiction within our Kings Dominions which to affirm is to take away part of his Imperial Crown and as 't is against all truth so by the Laws of this Realm is Treason besides while he holds the Pope Head of the Church and so infallible he obeys him well who believes not what he says For while the Church of Rome Papist sayes our King is lawful King of England Scotland and Ireland he gives the Lye to his Infallible Holiness who has continued the old Interdiction of these Kingdoms the Excommunication of our Kings and has declared our King to have no right to his Kingdoms And therefore in anno 1662. as well from Cardinal Barberin as from the Popes Nuncio at Brussel a severe Reprimand was sent to the Irish Nobility who had subscribed a Remonstrance testifying their Allegiance to our present King the Pope declaring it as an Injury to the Faith and a denying of his Supremacy And in anno 1648. when the Papists to prevent banishment declared That the Pope cannot absolve them from their Obedience That he cannot depose any Heretical as 't is call'd Magistrates that he cannot dispense with Oaths made with such Hereticks This was at Rome condemned as Heretical the Parties summoned to appear at Rome and Censures and Prisons prepared for them and in the same Case is your Man of Distinction with the Irish Papists for subscribing their formulary to that purpose so that I see nothing from your distinction to arise but a Monster of Aequivocal generation an Hermophrodite in Religion part Romish part English Catholick whose seminal Vertues are to exert themselves as either powers prevail Pap. I verily believe that the Catholicks of the Church of Rome are good Christians and true Roman Catholicks though they are not of the Court of Rome and they indeavour to reform that Church and distinguish it from that Court Phy. You say well distinguish for it may be distinguished in Notion but can never be separated in Deed the Court and the Church of Rome being so interwoven and although some few Straglers thus distinguish yet in reality all our Contests concern the Court of Rome in that all the interest of that Church is dependent on that Court and they are incorporated together so that if we should ever joyn in Communion with that Church we must in a little time submit to the Usurpation of that Court. Jurisdiction of Church and State being in the same hands cannot be severed unless some Sir Salomon among you can divide Pope Cardinal Prelate as great Salomon would have done the Child which the two Mothers claimed And as to your irregular and feeble Indeavors to reform that Church Pray by what Authority do your true English-Roman Catholicks endeavour to reform the Roman Catholick Church For your Confessors tell you at the first Principle that ye must believe as the Church believes yet they themselves believe not so but would reform that Church in its Articles of Faith Pap. Sir they know well enough what they have to do and we believe them who have good Authority to instruct us in our belief Phy. You have said all that is permitted to silly misled Ignaro's to say But have a care and inquire after such Reformers who in single private Capacities unauthoritatively undertake Reformation of Churches At one time undertaking the Reformation of the Romish and British Churches Our Church was reformed by due Authority according to the most antient Laws of this Realm It having all the Rights of a Patriarchal See But can a few Renegado-dandi-prat Papists think to unhinge a Church or State under a pretence of Reformation These Reformers of yours I fear prompted our late Pretenders to Reformation who first would reform the Court then the established Church by Presbytery then Presbytery by Independent then Independency by Subdivisions of Atomical Sects till with Quaker and Millenaries Government was reformed quite out of doors such Reformers as is said are like the Hobling Erastian and run like Badgers with variating and unequal Motions and if they can keep where the ridge of secular Power goes highest their Reformation turns into Rebellion and Papist Reformers are as various and divers from their Church of Rome aye and from themselves Pap. You mistake us much for the Reformers I mean go not about to reform the whole Church or to unhing it but to reform in their private Practises and Judgments and teach us so Phy. They are good Members of that Church in the mean time that are wiser then their whole Church not only to differ from their Church in their private Practises and Judgments but to teach all others to do so too Right Roman Catholicks I 'le warrant them Pap. What pray do you think of Father Paul who wrote the Council of Trent so disadvantagiously to the Romish Interest and yet he died a steady Catholick of the Church of Rome Phy. I 'le tell you what I think of him I think first That he was no English man and so nothing to our purpose for I have nothing to
room of I beseech ye Brethren Rom. 13. and which is remarkable Mahomet the Grand Impostor broke then out also when the Pope became a Temporal Prince by the Gift to him of the Kingdom of the Lombards by Pippin Son of Charles Martel Another Question is Sir whether our King is not as good a Successor to St. Joseph as a Lay Pope is to St. Peter Pope Constantine the fourth being opposed by the Council of Lateran as being a Lay person justified himself and shewed for President Sergius Bishop of Ravenna and Stephen Bishop of Naples and when the Pope said first Mass in the City of Constance King Sigismund in Deacons habit read the Gospel out of St. Luke 2. there went out a Decree from Caesar Augustus c. Pap. Well Sir let 's not talk too much of these matters for I may be drawn into a snare in seeming to lessen the Kings Authority from whom I expect protection and desire the Exercise of my Religion after my own Judgment Phy. Your own Judgment I like the words well and wish you guided by your own Judgment rightly improved by due Inquiries into things and not by the Judgment of others without a rational satisfaction why or wherefore but only you must do because you are bid to do so and until that you may expect and desire long enough before it be granted Pap. Why should you be so severe against us who promise all due Obedience to the King and not to disturb the peace of the Nation Phy. You may promise due Obedience but then you tell not what that due Obedience is Also men of your perswasion have alwaies promised fair but no Age can testifie their suitable performances if fit occasion be offered to the contrary Pap. Why then will you condemn all for some Phy. How shall we distinguish ye Will ye Rendevouz on black Heath and divide into parties Pap. I gave you a Distinction before of the Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papists the latter only are proper to be called Papists the former true Roman Catholicks Phy. Why Then I am no Protestant but a true English Catholick Pap. Yes though you be not a Lutheran Protestant nor a Calvinian Protestant yet you protest against the Church of Rome Phy. So though you be not a Jesuit Papist a de fide Papist yet you are a Papist owning the Popes Authority against the Church of England Pap. Well then you acknowledge us not to be so dangerous as some other Papists are Phy. Truth I cannot acknowledg ye so for for ought I know or perhaps your selves you may be as ill as the worst And whilst you make a Party disclaimer of the Popes Authority here that may be but a pretence and you may have the Popes Authority for so doing It 's not a new thing that Dispensations have been given by the Pope and frequently they are not only to Church with us at large but to communicate with us also and some have had Indulgences to worship Idols in proper Countries And this is your holy Stratagem like that of Cromwell who banished some hence to betray the King beyond Sea And it is to be remembred That Watson of whom your Peter Walsh speaks so well and called himself Puritan Papist and was of the same opinion with him in all your Distinctions and professions of Allegiance and Obedience to our King proved in conclusion a most notorious open Traytor Pap. I cannot tell but I protest if the Pope should invade ENGLAND to disturb the Peace thereof I would draw my sword as soon against him as I did against Cromwell Phy. So I have heard others greater then you to have said but pray deal fairly and candidly with me what is it that you would have Pap. That 's a Strange Question at this time of day Phy. It 's not strange while I judge by your uncertain Discourses you know not well what to have Pap. Why I would have Liberty to exercise Religion according to the Church of Rome Phy. That 's diverse from what you ask'd before for the Religion of the Church of Rome is that the Pope has power over our King and how consists that with your Protestation to fight against him if he Exercises that power equally as against Cromwell this is one of your Romish Equivocations and it may be you did not draw your Sword against Cromwell or that you intend the Popes personal Invasion of ENGLAND which is likely for the Pope by his Authority given to his Emissaries invades ENGLAND and disturbs its peace every day Pap. I intend it as fully as can be intended of any sort of Invasion or disturbance of peace by himself or others for it suffices me to Exercise the Roman Catholick Religion after the manner used by the true-English-Roman-Catholicks Phy. Would you Exercise a Religion after such a manner as is not used or exercised in any one Country whatsoever Pray Sir give me leave to ask you another Strange Question as you call it viz. Do you think it necessary to be of the Communion of some Church or no Pap. 'T is strange indeed Yes I do think it absolutely necessary to be of the Communion of the Church of ROME and I am so Phy. Very well Why are you so Pap. Because my Superior is so Phy. Who is your Superior Pap. Your pardon for that Sir Phy. Is he an ENGLISH Roman-Catholick Priest now residing in ENGLAND Pap. He is and what then I hope you intend not to inveigle me into a Discovery of him to his harm Phy. No indeed I wish them all well well informed or well out of harms way but my aim was by that to tell you what I think viz. That that very Superior of yours is not now nor has he been for many years last past himself a Member of that Church or of that Communion or if he be he 's but a lame Member Pap. Sir you think strangely and I must tell you that he is Professor of Divinity and a Priest of the Order of St. Francis Phy. Let him be what he will or can I say still as I did before and will Justifie it that 's more but Wee 'l let that alone till anon and I 'le be hold to ask you another question which may not seem so Strange as the former and that is how near does your Church of Rome agree with our Church of England in the business of Excommunications Pap. What your Church of England intends by Excommunication you know best but our Church of Rome holds That when a Man is Excommunicated by our Church he is quite cut off from the Church and its Communion and delivered over to Satan until penance be done and absolution given to him and for it's power I 'le tell you the Abby of Fusuiack was infested with Flies the Abbot Clareval said Excommunico eas and they were all dead immediately A white loaf by Excommunication turns as black as a Coal and being absolv'd turns
degrees might use a kind of a pious fraud in altering the then Worship from those Objects and substituting in their room the Images of the Trinity Angels Saints and holy Christians So came the vain repetitions of Prayers as the Heathens use 6 Mat. 7. And perhaps Dominus Deus Papae so succeeded Deus Antoninus and Dominus Deus Domitianus and because Dea Pecunia had a Temple in Rome Money has been since as much worshipped there as Juno Moneta and the votivae tabulae hung up in your Churches to the Virgin Mary and Saints c. after Diseases cured were the same as was done among the Pagans viz to Isis in Aegypt and so in Rome like our late Mountebanks Catalogues of Cures which might take by the semblance of their Worship and so by degrees draw them quite off to the true Christian Worship Which design not only took effect but the succeeding Ages proving sottish and unlearned contented themselves with what an Infant Christian Age had done and continued that worship part Heathen part Christian and grew into a belief that the fabulous Mousetraps made to catch Pagans and bring them into the Church were the true Gospel Engines to bring Christians to Heaven So the Inquisition was first invented as a Trap against Moors after a snare for sheep which senseless Dotage has ever since bewitcâ—ed the foolish Romans and has the face to confront this inquisitive Age just like the man that by frequently telling of a Lye came at last to believe it Phy. Truly Sir your conceit may have something of Truth in it as to the conversion of the Heathens into the Christian Religion by the Catholick Church of Old Rome But that the way of Worship and Devotion continued by them for so many hundred years should deserve your harsh and profane language I understand not for the primitive Church was doubtless as wise as the Church at any time since Phy. That the primitive Catholick Church was as wise as the Church has at any time since been I agree and so was the Primitive Romish Church when St. Paul and St. Peter were there but I know when it failed in its Wisdom and Worship and you your self admit it 's not so wise now by your distinction of Old Rome and New Rome Pray unfold that a little Pap. The Catholick Bishop of Old Rome never pretended to an Universal Monarchy both in Spirituals and Temporals over the whole Earth as the Bishop of New Rome doth and to be Superior to other Sov'raign Princes in civil matters and as to that point I call this New Rome from this New Doctrine which I oppose as strongly as any Protestant Phy. Sir I should have thought that the difference you make between Old Rome and New Rome had been with reference to Physick for that Old Rome was contented with the renowned Aescalapius who cured diseases after the method we now use and New Rome it seems fancies curing after the Hermitical way as you say But pray Sir did your Priest adopt you into the Communion of Old Romes or New Romes Church Or did he tell you the difference between the Doctrines and Worship of one or the other I doubt not Yet you say true in saying it's a Doctrine and a New Doctrine for it was made such by the Council of Lateran and the Council of Lyons and not before So it is that the Pope may dispence with Oathes and in execution of that Article in Queen Elizabeths time such dispensations were intercepted in their journy to the Steady Roman Church Catholicks in Scotland pretending as your Superiors do and by those dispensations the Roman-Catholicks in general were allowed to promise Swear Subscribe and do what else should be required of them so as in mind they continued firm and did use their diligence to advance in secret the Roman Faith The remembrance of which occasion'd King James to provide as he did against Aequivocal professions and pretences of Allegiance Now then how can one be of the Communion of that Church who differs from that Church in point of faith if the Pope or his Councels may be believed to determine Articles of faith if Mr. Cressâ—y faies true in his Book in which he gives account of his conversion to the Romish Communion viz. That it 's impossible that Catholicks should differ in point of Faith or that Schism should be in their Church which is grounded on singular reason for if he differs in Faith he ceases to be a Catholick and when one is Schismatick he ceases to be of that Church Pap. Well True Roman-Catholicks do hold so and that makes all of your Church Hereticks and Schismaticks and out of our Communion Phy. In good time good Fellow Travailer does it so Why then that very thing if so makes your True English Roman Church Catholicks Hereticks Schismaticks and not of the Communion of the Romish Church to which they have so generally and undistinguishingly profelyted you and indeavour to inveigle others Judge ye now therefore whether these Phanatick Papists mean good faith to you or to their Natural Prince when they pretend Allegiance to their Liege Lord and do deny Supremacy to the Pope in Civil and Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction here and accuse their Church to Err in such pretences and in some matters of Faith to their utter severance from that Church-Communion and Protection and yet at the same time with all Subtilty and wilely Arts are Discipling English Men in the Faith and Communion of the Church of Rome generally without any Restriction or Limitation Pap. It is enough for us of the Laity to believe as the Church believes in matters which concern us as Practise and Worship c. And for the difficult points of Faith and Disputation let out Superiors whose duty it is look to them for we shall answer for no more then we know or are Taught Phy. Know or are taught Will ye suffer your Ears to be stopped and excuse your not hearing not knowing and not being taught and lay all on him who stopped your Ears with your own consent Come Sir consider whether it will add any pleasure to your Travail to go to Hell on another mans back Or if you say to the Devil he brought me hither pray let me go back to whence I came and keep him will Old Nick release you No Therefore get out of your Fetters and duress break forth from your Ignorant Shackles search and try whether your Pope in Church and Pope in Court agree then whether your Confessor agrees with Pope or Court or Church or with the Communion of any one Country Catholick or other and you 'l easily find him to be so far only like unto the Pope as an Heteroclite in Religion either deficient or redundant and not to be brought under any rule Then consider further use due and utmost searches according to your circumstances with the aid of Divine Assistance whether it be not better to be guided by the Pope
say against Forreigners let them use what Religion their Superiours there injoyn them But against English men who in opposition to the Religion of State distinct from that of Faith which is ordered by the proper Legislative Power such as your Church of Rome Papist is for ought I can yet see If your Father Paul was such I think him either a fool or a Knave for if St. Peters Successor did behave himself well in that Council your Paul was a Knave to traduce him if contrary he was a fool to leave a well ordered Church to follow the Dictates of such a faulty Guide yet were he a Subject of Rome he was much too blame so openly to reproach his Prince and yet was religious to dye a steady Cathâ—lick of that Church while he was obliged to hear the Pharisee sitting in St. Peters Chair Pap. Well Sir say what you will I say I am a true Roman Catholick as to the other World and a true English man as to this Phy. Sir you offered a Distinction lately with a witness viz. Father Paul and now comes a Distinction with Paulo majore and as to this I say it 's a Distinction well becoming a Romish-Church-Catholick but not a true English man for it looks two waies for if Chequer Papist party per pale half true Papist half true English will not do then it is to be interpreted True English man for life and after true Roman Catholick and so it has something of Policy but more of Romish Guile In as much as it serves to secure Protection and Preservation here during life and after in the other world True Roman Catholick goes for it to St. Peter God a mercy good Distinguisher he dares as well be hang'd as tell the Pope this how he cheats the Pope all his life and cheats the King at his death this Distinction dares not appear at Rome no more then peaceable Mr. Walsh Mr. White or Mr. Serjeant who non-conform from the Church of Rome more then our Independent from the Church of England Pap. But Sir if the Distinguisher as you call him explains himself and sayes he owes Allegiance to the King actively as to Matters of State and passively as to Matters of Church and so differs from your Church in pure Judgment only and no more then Presbyterian or Independents there who are good Subjects nevertheless owe Allegiance and claim protection c. what say you then c Phy. First I say that Church and State were all one before Christian Emperours divided them and causes were all derived from the same Fountain the King but as some were put into the hands of Ecclesiasticks and were called Ecclesiastical or Spiritual so others delegated to Civil Magistrates were called Civil thence arose the two Jurisdictions which are naturally one as in our King and by Delegation only made two But I further say if you be in earnest it is the first time I ever heard Papists to fight with Presbyterian weapons and I mean by earnest real for sad Experience has shew'd that it is not the first time by thousands that the Militants of the Romish Church have used the unhallowed Artillery of the spurious English Natives to fight withal against us Yet not in earnest or real as such but in Masquerade and if your Distinguisher be so half witted to tender this peace-meal Obedience I say further It 's the proper Result of Romish Ignorance for such Notional Obedience is indeed none True Obedience ought to be intire and is due to the lawful Magistrates Commands by the Law of Nature antecedent to any Command by the Magistrate for the Lords sake who injoyns to obey not barely for the Commands-sake which injoyns to do And there is more Religion in such Obedience then in all your Worship But Sir I would willingly be resolv'd whether the Romish Church Catholick dissent from us in Church matters in pure Judgment or by reason of some Command from the Pope next whether there be not a great difference between Protestant and Popish Dissenters Inasmuch as the former whatever he thinks concerning the power of his Prince in Church matters and perhaps would have him mend his Discipline according to mistaken Rule of Scripture yet he takes it not from our Prince and lodges it in a forraign Prince or Prelate which last makes it Treason Let this be answered and I 'le promise you not to take such an uncouth Travail as at present gives occasion of our Discourse Pap. Pray Sir is there any harm if I prefer the Pope to the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury Phy. None at all as the former is a Temporal Prince and the latter but a Subject nay more the Arch-Bishop of Rome shall have my Vote to take Precedency of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury at a general Council when it happens but not in England unless by Curtesy And if you prefer the Pope before the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury as to any power of Spiritual Jurisdiction in our Kings Dominions you are unmannerly to the Arch-Bishop who is Apostolick and Patriarch here as Pope Vrban the second allowed and you are a Traytor to the King by and under whose undoubted inherent Right and Authority the Arch-bishop is Primate in this Patriarchate Pap. But do you think in your Conscience that the Pope has no Right to Spiritual Jurisdiction in England Phy. Aye I do in my Conscience verily believe that the Pope has no Right to any Jurisdiction whatsoever in our Kings Dominions Pap. Pray what Grounds have you for it Phy. The Grounds I have for it is from the certain Testimony of Records continued in Succession for many hundred years which are to be seen in the Tower and some of them are transcribed by the Lord Coke and cited in the Report of a Law Case called Cawdries Case and in Mr. Prins Collections whereby it plainly appears that in all ages wherein the Pope laid claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in England and offered to put the same in Execution it was alwaies opposed by Parliaments and Councils as derogatory to the just Rights of this Crown Pap. But how are you certain of the truth of these Testimonies Phy. Sir as to the matter of Certainty I shall not use the notions so much contended about viz. Moral Certainty or sufficient Certainty so much as the Nature of the thing is capable of there being three absolute Certainties by which we come to the knowledg of things 1. A sensible Certainty 2. A Mathematical Certainty 3. An Historical Certainty and all these are in their kinds respectively absolute The Certainty of Sence makes me absolutely Certain of what I see hear c. The Certainty of Demonstration makes me absolutely Certain that one and one makes two and three and three makes six The Certainty of History continued uninterrupted and undoubted and by unanimous Consent of succession of Ages and Historians makes me absolutely certain that there were such Kings of England as Kenulphus King Edwin Edw. the
Peace of the Nation provided ye by the same Oath declared that the Pope could not dispense therewith And if the Pope himself would also declare so That would certainly conduce to make your true Roman Catholick a true English man and until both be so done I cannot promise security to the peace of the Nation But I pray why are you so in love with the Romish Liturgy and Worship that you vvould have it established here Pap. For these Reasons 1. For that it is for the Honour of the Christian Religion that the same way of Worship might be observed in all Christian Churches 2. For that the vvay of the Romish Worship has been used in all Christian Ages and in all Christian Kingdoms and Places till of late and is still used in some Kingdoms where the Popes Jurisdiction is not allowed Phy. Sir as to your first reason I agree it would be exceedingly for the Honour of the Christian Religion if such Harmony and Agreement could be used in religious Worship as that one God might be worshipped in one way but as that never was so I fear never will be till all things be no more As to your second reason I deny that the Romish Worship as now is used was in any Christian Age or Kingdom used for above five hundred years after Christianity came into the world nor do your true English Roman Catholicks as you call them now agree with any other Christian Kingdom Church or Place vvhatsoever if they belie not themselves Pap. Well it has been so long used and with so general a Consent and Approbation as may well Intitle it to a preference to this new upstart way of Worship which this Nation has had not above 100 Years Phy. As to the Argument of Antiquity and long Usage It may be good in cases of Politick and Civil rights and Interests and become determinative provided it be not against positive Laws natural Equity or reason And in these Exterior parts of Religion it can obtain no more For a way of worship repugnant to the positive Law declared in Scripture or repugnant to the positive Law of the supreme Magistrate ought not to be exercised by any Subject living under the protection of that Supream Magistrate without sin and breach of Allegiance And Sir I must tell you further that this Notion of Antiquity though of great veneration in it self yet has been often used to the disadvantage of truth and made a Stale to dangerous mistakes and corrupt purposes You know who was reproved for not walking after the Traditions of the Elders 7. Mat. 5. and who were so zealous for the Traditions of the Fathers 1. Gal. 14. Against whose Arguments of Antiquity it was only opposed search the Scriptures 5. John 39. and you may see 17 Acts 19. who scoff'd at the new Doctrine as you at this new upstart way of Worship though indeed elder to yours So the Antiquity barely as such is no Argument for one or against another or that the more ancient as such is to be preferred before the late but again I say search and try vvhich is the best and adhere to that for the Improvement of your own not another mans Talent must enrich you Pap. This despising of things antient and entertaining of things Novel in Religion has not only made a lamentable breach in the Catholick Church but this Nation more particularly and dolefully has felt the direful Effects thereof in your Divisions and Subdivisions in the matters of Religion and the vvayes of religious Worship witness all your Sects and Dissentions that have lately over-run the Nation Phy. As this Objection is of some standing so it 's nere the better nor stronger for it for new Answers have fully confounded it as vvell to the reason of the thing as to a returning it vvith abundant additions on the Romish Church vvherein are many more Divisions Sects and Dissention then in ours as Doctor Stillingfleet has learnedly and faithfully made out in one Chapter of his Book against Idolatry c. Pap. Pray then tell me a reason why may not I or another so perswaded with good conscience use the Romish Way of Worship and Devotion and not the English Way of Worship if I allow the Kings Supremacy and disallow the Popes Phy. Laying aside the reasons urged against the irrationality foppish feigned Superstition Incredibility and Idolatry at large discoursed by Dr. Stillingfleet in his Book against their Idolatry and Fanaticism and it's Vindication a Book called Reflections on the Romish Devotions another the Triumphs of Rome over despised Protestancy two others viz. the Funeral of the Mass and the depth and mystery of the Mass vvhich I vvish you to read and others I 'le tell you another reason viz. because the King has commanded the contrary Pap. Why can the Kings Command bind me in my vvay of Worship is it not sufficient if I disown the Pope Phy. You disown the Pope only by half yet such disowning may be well done and if we could be assured it was well done might give some Security to the King against Forreign Civil Pretenders but still you give him no Security for perfect Obedience as a true English man and against breach of the peace of the Church if you conform not to his lawful Commands in his waies of Worship Pap. Pray how come the King to have power to impose a way of Worship according to his own Will Phy. The King has as much Power to impose a way of Worship here as the Pope has in his Dominions but neither has Power to impose a way of Worship absolutely according to his own VVill. Pap. What has the King Power to impose a Way of Worship and yet not according to his own Will pray according to whose Will does he so impose c. Phy. He imposes it according to the Will of God Pap. How can that be for the Protestants say that no Way of Worship is expresly appointed in Scripture and they allow no Revelations to holy men to be credited Phy. This is the rule they go by whatsoever in Religion is not of the essence of Christian Religion intituled by our Saviour himself or declared or advised to be practised by the Apostles is lawfully looked on as Religion of State in that it may be altered or improved or abolished by the Soveraign power for the better Advancement of those ends which are essential the same power may remove Errors Inconveniences Scandals and abuses therein and of that Nature is the way of Worship and so within the Power of the King The King has no Power over the kernel but over the shell he has and by his Soveraign power that is preserved inviolate Pap. Well but if he has such power why could he not keep the Old shell but make a New one Phy. Our King has not made a New shell to keep the Old kernel in but he has amended the Old shell for the better preservation of the Old kernel
just as it was one Robert Brook being Excommunicated the Dogs would not take bones from him Phy. Why then you have proved your Professor of Divinity your Franciscan Priest to be not onely in a woful condition but not of the Church of Rome nor of its Communion For he is and has been a long time Excommunicated by the Pope for those very distinctions that you and others dote upon and have mention'd in this our discourse Pap. Sure it can't be so Phy. Do you know Obedient Peter Walsh Pap. I have good reason to know him and love him and honour him for he is a Learned Pious and Peaceable minded man Phy. Why he it was that tell'd me of the Excommunication I mention Pap. I can't believe it Phy. I verily believe he tell'd it you too Pap. On my Credit he tell'd it not to me Phy. Why he tell'd it to all the English and Irish Roman Catholicks and writ a Letter to them all and printed it and saies so in that Letter page 5. 47. 48. So then he is disabled to officiate as a Priest and while he remains so disabled and others of the same opinion as Mr. Walsh sayes there are five hundred in England What Confessors have you and who can make new ones but the Pope and will he make any more of the same Opinion or such as are not of his Faith and what if Priests be changed or change their opinions as to our State what security can be given against it As for ye poor Blinds ye are already in the Snare and how to get out how know ye for ye must not dispute nor can ye for want of knowledge which is necessarily kept from yee Nor if ye could must ye dispute with your Superiors but ye must believe as the Church believes Yet the reason of such belief ye must not inquire into for the Pope is to Explicate all Matters and all other Explications are declared void and Null by Pope Pius the Fourth in a Bull for that purpose which Bull all Priests are sworn to obey however your dispensing Priests may wheadle with ye And in truth it comes to this that either such a True Roman Catholick as your Confessor pretends to be must commit Treason or renounce some Articles of Faith holden by that Church which he advises and conjures ye to believe Pap. Then I hope such a man deserves protection and favour here who for his Allegiance to the King runs such a bazard Phy. I can't see what protection or favour he deserves for such Allegiance or hazard nor can I tell how far such a one is to be trusted who is a Heretick at Rome and called True Roman-Catholick in England and cannot agree with the King if the King should agree with him Let the King do as he pleases Why is it to be thought that he should yield due Obedience to our King to save his Neck who refuses due Obedience to his supream head of his Church to save his Soul Pap. Judge not too rashly for the Franciscan you speak of is accounted a Man Phy. Let him be accounted what he will and make what profession of Allegiance and Obedience he pleases this I know That the Pharisees Christs utter Enemies called themselves so as holy Seperalists as others have called themselves the Family of Love the Saints c. The Saduces who denyed the grand Article of Faith the Resurrection so called as the righteous The learned Gnosticks and the Robbers Zealots and Peter Walsh sayes there are Indifferents Zealots Bigots and Hypocrites among them so call these Interpendents between Pope and King what you please I know what to call them as before and while I think it not safe for them to be in either place ROME or ENGLAND c. I advise them to hasten to a Locus tertius and be sure they dye in belief of Purgatory Pap. It 's time for us to have done I see you are an angry Protestant Phy. I 'me glad you can see me something and of some Church I cannot see what or of what Church you are or would be Pap. But Sir Do not you think we have travailed ten miles from London Phy. Truly yes I take it you have travail'd full ten miles Pap. Then at yonder Sign I 'le stay and consider a while Phy. Sir if you stay an hour there I 'le come and drink a glass of Wine with you Pap. Content Sir Phy. Farewell THE Second PART PHY. How now Sir what mounted already I had hopes to have drank a Bottel of Wine with you and made haste accordingly Pap. Sir I have staied a full hour here my Landlord affirms so and that is as much as you desired Phy. Sir I perceive you are a Person that stints your self in the Duties of Religion and Conversation Pap. As long Sir as I fulfil all Commands I fulfil the Law Phy. You may be said to fulfil the Law and yet at the same time not to be obedient to that Law For if a man fulfils the Law to save the penalty which the Civil Sanction annexes that 's done by force when as all Obedience is spontaneous and ought to be made from the reason of the thing in Morals for the reason of the Command in Indifferents yet not for the Command sake but by Law natural which injoyns such Commands to be obeyed as before I said Pap. Sir you are a strange man thus to arraign me in my Morals Phy. I find good cause so to do for what ever Huffs and Bragadocho's some of your Clergy make about Demonstration I find as they understand not so with you of the Laity you take all things on trust Pap. What reason have you to say so you know not on what Grounds we go Phy. Yes since I 've met with you I have well learnt how to judge of you and that you take things on trust as for Example 1. You took it on trust that Ogilbies Wheel had declared it twelve Miles to Rumford 2. You took it on trust from me of a different Religion that you had travail'd ten miles 3. You took it on trust from your Landlord that you had stayed a full hour for me 4. You took it on trust that your great Franciscan was of the Communion of the Church of Rome In all which you may be mistaken and in the last doubtless are for the reasons before Pap. But pray whither travail you now Faith I have been considering of somewhat you said before and now you hint at again i. e. If any Priest be excommunicated how can he be a true Roman Catholick therefore for ought I know I am none neither and so not within the Proclamation and so may return back again to London however I 'le go and inform my self better of these things you have mentioned I do not doubt but at another time to answer them all fully if I cannot I know who can Phy. You had need be better informed indeed I wish you good Information
within you viz. your own reason so informed which was placed there as was said to distinguish you from a Brute that can go stand do c. as he is taught or at least by a Church in whose Conduct you may have rational satisfaction in all the points of its profession So then if your Pope your Councils your Church do err as your true English Roman-Catholicks say they do in Doctrinals in matters of Faith How can you be assur'd that your Runigate Priests do not err in the matters they inculcate into your easy heads and in that unintelligible Faith which is against sence and reason and their own Judgments And how can you then be assured they err not in worship which is of less weight Pap. Constant Usage and Approbation are sufficient grounds for me in that However you may see that we Roman Catholicks of this perswasion submit our selves to the Laws of the Land are willing to give security for not disturbing the peâ—ce and of our Allegiance to the King and so in Justice are intitled to the Kings protection and deserve not to be lyable to the penal Laws intended purely against the Papists of the Court of Rome Phy. Very well we are now come to the end of the Journey whence we began and so in our Discourse viz. to the Distinction of Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papists and I am still of opinion that neither ought to be suffered here For were it possible to believe that all the English Romish Catholicks were such Mungrel Papists as you pretend to be that is to obey the Pope in part and our King in part as has been said as is plain they are not as appears by the opposition of most of them to the formulary or remonstrance mentioned by Peter Walsh yet even they are not to be trusted here with safety to the King For what security can there be given that the Roman Catholick who is false to the Pope should be faithful to the King that one can serve two Masters pretending to Equality with equal faithfulness that one who is excommunicated by his own Church should keep faith with another Church that one who is notoriously perjured should be believed That one who is of the Church of Rome should be bound by that Oath which his Church condemns and frequently dispenses with and he owns that one who is so easie as to believe the ridiculous Fables of Old Rome may not as easily be drawn over to the rebellious faults of the New Rome and Peter Walsh's assurance for his party is just as valuable as his partner Cressy's for the Jesuits and what Credit can be given to one who brake his Oath to this Church and then did as much to the other and is now possessed with or by the Devil being delivered over to Satan Besides 't is obvious how dangerous it is to indulge that sort of people by the stir they have lately made in publick declaimings against the Religion of this Kingdom and the disturbance of this Churches peace which is an ill requital for the Kings gracious Clemency and has awakened those laws which otherwise might have slept still And how can that Papist be believed to be true and faithful to that King whom he takes to be an Heretick and will infallibly be damned How can a Popish Fanatick who believes all the Enthusiasmes allowed in the Romish Church viz. the Revelations of Mother Juliana the Preface to Sancta Sophia who thirsts after the lights which do expell all Images of Creatures and calm all manner of passions to the end that the Soul being in vacuity may be more capable of entertaining God in the pure fund of the Spirit who is in possession of the Deiform fund of the Soul which is the simple Essence of the Soul stamped with Divine Impress from whence ariseth a superessential life being a way of knowing without thoughts of seeing in darkness of understanding without reasonâ— of unknowing God by perceiving of being melted and brought to nothing first and then being lost and swallowed up in God by which means all created being is put off and that which is only Divine put on being changed into God as Iron heated into the nature of fire which is attained to by seeking God in the Obscurity of Faith with a more profound introversion of the Spirit which is the State of Nothingness or of Totality or the unica of Nothing with Nothing by which the Soul comes to a feeling of her not being and by consequence of the not being of Creatures I say how can such a one who must first be mad before he can know he is in his wits expect any better Entertainment in England then the three late York-shire Quakers had at Rome viz. as being dismissed as Mad-men They being in France shaved to cure that Frenzy which oft by shaving is occasioned and such as this are some of your Romish Church Catholicks nay even the Superiors as they have testified to the World in Print and why may not such a Romish Church Quaker who attains knowledge after a Mystical way by the Impulses of the Spirit only extravagate soon into civil affairs as well as Father White who never read Mathematicks as he sayes and without the Help of Humane Learning attain to the perfect knowledge of the Quadrature of the Circle And how are these Formulary men to be believed while they can to the Pope excuse their remonstrance of Allegiance to their King by saying that they only acknowledge but do not swear it that they do not Condemn the opinion contrary to the Oath nor do they declare that the Pope cannot dispense with the Oath or any part of it Let any one Judge now comparing their remonstrance to the King and their Declaration to the Pope what manner of Allegiance and Obedience the King may expect from them especially it being declared by the Council of Toledo in the time of Innocent the sixth That laws as to Ecclesiastical persons bind not ad culpam but ad poenam And by Aquinas Monks are only bound to profess not to keep the rules of St. Benedict just so are our True English Roman Catholicks bound to profess and owe as you call it Allegiance but how or when to keep or pay it who can he assured thereof And their stories tell us That the Devil appeared to Fryar Ruffin in form of Christ And what security is there by that Oath taken by them while the same persons taking that Oath can confidently assure the Pope That they do not condemn the opinion contrary to that Oath nor do they declare that the Pope cannot dispense with that Oath or any part of it which is as much as to say and believe that the Pope can dispense therewith which they may more easily believe then that the Pope can dispense with St. Pauls Epistles with the New Testament with the Old and New Testament with the whole law of God and to compleat the Popes
power He can in a manner do all things that God can do which several Tenets are holden by true Roman Catholicks and others have affirmed that the Pope is above Law against Law without Law and can do all things and that in all Oaths the Popes Power is excepted And lastly if some of your Superiours should be true to their word or Oath such as it is and so commenced upon and explained as before what Assurance can be given That such Mushrom Papists as you shall be alwaies guided by them and not at sometime or other procreate or transmute into Hornets and Wasps Garnets or Venners or that under colour or pretence of meek Nothings who live by the Effects of supernatural Inactions of God Rapts and Extasies other Baronian wretches may not intrude using the same vizor for a while and when occasion and opportunity shall serve then cry aloud as some have done Our Lord God the Pope which hast all power in heaven and earth Then in earnest would be advanced the most illustrious name of British and Irish Catholicks that name of names and most glorious of Titles as indeed it is but venerated by that great Franciscan with that nick name Roman and especially Walshes Letter c. p. 5. against all which I hope Soveraign Notice and Caution will arm it self and that before it be too late for as Plantus Qui cavet ne decipiatur vix cavet cum etiam cavet quando enim cavisse ratuâ— est sape is Cautor captus est Pap. You talk of Mad-men I think you will show your self such I 'me glad I am near my journeys end I shall part with you here at Bow-bridge and go the back way I like not your company now and shall not trust my self with you in the City least you discover me Phy. Truly Sir I have made as much discovery of you as I desire and I discover besides your Religious impertinencies your Obedience to the Kings commands to be just as much as that of Mr. Ogilbies wheel viz. mearly to measure so much of the road as the driver pleases and no more I wish you again better informed and so farewell But Sir pray stop but a little while and I 'le tell you a significant piece of Religion of a Souldier of the Bishop of Rome Old Rome older then your Bishop of old Rome Caesar who seeing this Souldier fighting with most accurate valour beset with many Foes yet forced his way through them all and escaped through great mires waters and great difficulties with only the loss of his shield ran to the Souldier to imbrace him and to incourage and reward his incomparable prowess the true hearted Souldier out of Sence to his Duty and Obedience which by the Law written in his heart he owed to his Prince was so far from being transported with the glory of his Action or the value set thereon by Casar's Approbation that with Tears in his eyes he asked pardon of him that he had left his Target behind him And Sir before we part I have another thing come in my head and that is I have a desire to send you a memorable Record which I have in my Study it is the Opinion of the Judges Nobility and Clergy of England concerning the Kings Supreme Ecclesiastical Power with reference both to Papists and Puritans pray how may I direct it to you Pap. Sir I shall give it the perusal you may inclose it in a Paper directed to Mr. Justin Hide and leave it at the Book-sellers at Graies-Inn Gate Phy. I shall Sir and once more Farewel THE RECORD OF 2o. Febr. 2. JACOBI MEmorandum that by Command from the King all the Justices of England with diverse of the Nobility viz. the Lord Ellesmere Lord Chancellour the Earl of Dorset Lord Treasurer Viscount Cranborn Principal 2 Croke 37. Moore 755. Secretary the Earl of Nottingham Lord Admiral the Earls of Northumberland Worcester Devon and Northampton the Lord Zouch Burleigh and Knowles the Chancellour of the Dutchy the Arch-bishop of Canterbury the Bishop of London Popham chief Justice Bruce Master of the Rolls Anderson Gawdy Walmsley Femier Kingsmith Warberton Savel Daniel Yelverton and Snigg were assembled in the Star-Chamber where the Lord Chancellour after a long speech made by him concerning Justices of Peace and his Exhortation to the Justices of Assise and a Dâ—â—ouse concerning Papists and Puritans declaring how they both vvere Disturbers of the State and that the King intending to suppress them and to have the Laws put in Execution against them demanded of the Justices their Resolutions in three things First vvhether the Deprivation of Puritan Ministers by the high Commissioners for refusing to conform themselves to the Ceremonies appointed by the last Canons vvas lawful Whereto all the Justices answered That they had conferred thereof before and held it to be lawful because the King hath the Supreme Ecclesiastical Power vvhich he hath delegated to the Commissioners vvhereby they had the power of Deprivation by the Common Law of the Realm And the Statute of 1. Eliz. which appoints Commissioners to be made by the Queen doth not confer any new Power but explain and declare the ancient Power And therefore they held it clear That the King without Parliament might make Orders and Constitutions for the Government of the Clergy and might deprive them if they obeyed not And so the Commissioners might deprive them but they could not make any Constitutions vvithout the King and the divulging of such Ordinances by Proclamation is a most gratious Admonition and for as much as they have refused to obey they were lawfully deprived by the Commissioners ex Officio without Libel and â—re tenus convocati Secondly Whether a Prohibition be grantable against the Commissioners upon the Statute 2 H. 5. if they do not deliver a Copy of the Libel to the Party Whereto they all answered That the Statute is intended where the Ecclesiastical Judge proceeds ex Officio ore tenus Thirdly Whether it were an offence punishable and what punishment they deserved who framed Petitions and collected a Multitude of hands thereto to prefer to the King in a publick Cause as the Puritans had done vvith an Intimation to the King That if he denyed their Suit many thousands of his Subjects would be discontented Whereto all the Justices answered That it vvas an Offence finable at Discretion and very near to Treason and Felony in the Punishment for they tended to the raising of Sedition Rebellion and Discontent among the people To which resolution all the Lords agreed And then many of the Lords declared that some of the Puritans had raised a false rumour of the King how he intended to grant a Toleration to Papists which Offence the Justices conceived to be heinously finable by the rules of the Common-Law either in the Kings Bench or by the King and his Council or now since the Statute of 3 H. 7. in the Star Chamber And the Lords severally declared how the King vvas discontented vvith the said false Rumour and had made but the day before a protestation unto them that he never intended it And that he vvould spend the last drop of blooâ— in his Body before he vvould do it And prayed that before any of his Issue should maintain any other Religion then vvhâ— he truly professed and maintained that God vvould take them oâ— of the World FINIS