A CONFERENCE OF THE CATHOLIKE AND PROTESTANTE DOCTRINE WITH THE EXPRESSE WORDS OF HOLIE SCRIPTVRE WHICH IS THE SECOND PARTE OF THE Prudentiall Balance of Religion VVHEREIN IS CLEARELY SHEWED THAT IN MORE then 260. points of controuersie Catholiks agree with the holie Scripture both in words and sense and Protestants disagree in both and depraue both the sayings words and sense of Scripture WRITTEN FIRST IN LATIN BVT NOW AVGmented and translated into English ACTS IV. VERSE XVII IF IT BE IVST IN THE SIGHT OF GOD TO heare you rather then God iudge yee S. Athanasius Apol. de Fuga WHAT MVST WE STICK TO TO GODS words or these mens Fables AT DOWAY By the widdowe of MARKE WYON at the signe of the Phenix M.DC.XXXI The argument of the first booke VVHo in more then 260. points of controuersie speake with the holie Scripture in the very selfe same or equiualeÌ„t words when it speaketh of those matters expressely and of purpose and in that sense also which the words of Scripture of themselues without anie exposition of man do afforde and in which sense such words vse to be spoken and vnderstood of men they touching those points agree both in words and meaning with the holie Scripture And who speake of those points both in such words and sense as are contrarie to the foresaied words and sense they in those points disagree both in words and sense from the holie Scripture But Catholiks doe that and Protestants this Therefore c. The Maior semeth to be manifest by it selfe and is largely proued in the second booke Cap. 1. The Minor is shewed to the eye in all the first booke The argument of the second Booke VVHo not onely in more then 260. points of controuersie disagree from the foresaied words and sense of Scripture but also are forced openly to reiect some of the words thereof to blot out some to call others in question to change the order of others to change almost all kinds of the Scriptures speaches to expound her words by quite different and plaine contraries to reiect the vnanimous exposition of holie Fathers to confesse that some of their opinions were long since condemned for heresies that some are blasphemous and playne contrarie to Scripture such contradict not onely the words but also the true sense of Scripture But Protestants doe thus Therefore c. The Maior is manifest by it selfe and the Minor shewed to the eye in the second Booke APPROBATIO HOc opus cui titulus Collatio doctrinae Catholicorum ac Protestantium cum expressis sacrae scripturae verbis duobus libris comprehensa Latino serm one olim editum à duobus S. Theol. Doctoribus Parisiensibus approbatum nunc verò auctum in Anglicum sermonem fideliter conuersum nihil habet fidei Catholicae aduersum aut bonis moribus sed plurimum valet ad confutationem doctrinae haereticorum praesentis temporis proinde rectè praeli beneficio in lucem edetur Datum Duaci die 2. Ianuarij 1631. GEORGIVS COLVENERIVS S. Theol. Doctor eiusdem Regius ordinarius ac primarius Professor insignis Ecclâ—siae Collegiatae S. Petri Praepositus Canonicus Duacen sis Academiae Cancellarius librorum Censor THE PREFACE TO THE READER WHEREIN THE SCOPE MANNER OF PROCEDING AND PROFIT OF THIS BOOKE IS DECLARED REQVISITE TO BE READ BEFORE THE BOOKE THERE are now diuers years Gentle Reader since I published the first parte of the Prudential Balance of Religion in which by the weights of Prudence and Right Reason I weighed together the Catholik and Protestant religion according to their first Founders in our English nation to wit S. Austin and Martin Luther which booke hath neuer since bene answered by anie Protestant albeit diuers ministers and superintendents haue carped at it both in Pulpits and printed books shewing thereby that they wanted no will to answere it if they could haue performed it In the preface thereof I promised a second parte in which I would after the same manner weigh the forsaied religions according to their claimes to the holie Scripture and the expresse words thereof which here now I offer vnto thee The causes why I haue so long differred the publishing of this second parte are well enough knowne to them who know me and not needfull to be known of them who know me not And therfore I will not trouble thee with the rehearshall of them but here propose vnto thee the scope manner of Proceding and Profits of this second parte 2. As a man consisteth essentially of a Soule and Bodie and can neither be nor be imagined without them both So the true Church of Christ essentially consisteth Two things wholy necessarieto Christs Church of his true Doctrine which is the forme and as it were the soule of his Church and of lawfull Pastors and People who teach and embrace his Doctrine which Pastors and People make as it were the bodie of Christes Church And without both these partes to wit Christs true Doctrine and true Pastors teaching and People embracing it Christs true Church can no more be or imagined to be then a true man can either be or imagined to be without both the true bodie and true soule of a man And albeit the manifest need of both these partes to the true Church of Christ doth enforce Protestants to make some clame to them both and to pretend that they haue alvaies had both true Pastors who taught and People who beleiued their Doctrine yet their pretense to this parte of the Church is so weake and slender as but seldome and vpon mere necessitie they insist thereon But their greatest pretense and claime is to the true Doctrine of Christ and think thereby to proue that they haue alwaies had true Pastors and People who taught and beleiued their Doctrin as I haue shewed in a Booke of the Author of the Protestant Church and Religion wherein also I haue conuinced by ten Demonstrations all taken out of the open Confessions of the best learned Protestants both of England and other Countries that they neuer had anie one Pastor who taught or man who beleived the very fundamentall and most substantiall points of their religion before Luther arose but that he was first Author Inuentor and Father therof as some of them in plaine termes do call him 3. And although this Booke haue bene now these manie years published both in Latin and English and doth by the open confessions of the best learned Protestants ouerthrow the very foundation of their Church or rather shew that it hath no foundation at all besides their owne imagination yet hitherto no Protestant hath made anie shew of a solid answere vnto it I saie no shew of a why D. Prideaux lecture is no answer to the Author of Protest religion solid answere because that florish which Doctor Prideaux the Kinges diuinitie Reader in Oxford hath made in a lecture deserueth not the name of shew or shadow of an answer First because
speeches of Protestants as it was to me to write them out let him runne ouer the Summe which I make of their words or by the notes in the margent chuse which are fittest to his purpose And thus much for the māner of my proceeding in this booke 11. The profit of this work is manifould First because by it a short and easie way may be taken to make an end The profits of this worke of all controuersies and that out of Scirpture alone as Protestants desire to wit by mere rehearsall of the expresse words of Scripture of Catholiks and of famous Protestants touching 260. articles of controuersie For if it appeare that catholikes in 260. articles agree both in word and sense with the expresse words of Scripture and these spoken of purpose to declare her meaning vnto vs and that Protestants in those 260. articles directly contradict the said words and sense of the holie Scripture no man will doubt but that all Protestant doctrin for as it is contrarie to the Catholik is also contrarie to the holie Scripture An other commoditie is that in this booke are gathered those places of Scripture and they ranked according to order of their matters which in 260. articles directly and in their proper and vsual sense do approue the Catholik doctrin and condemne the Protestant A third commoditie is that hereby are at hand in euerie kind of controuersie such sayings of famous Protestants as not onely directely crosse the Scripture but also many of them are so blasphemous against God against Christ against the Saints the Church Sacraments Faith Good works so opposite to pietie vertue and religion so fauorable to vice and all licenciousnes so repugnant to reason as some Protestants will deny and others scarse beleeue that euer any of theirs taught such doctrin Whome I request The Authors fidelitie in citing Protetestants sayings to take the paines to looke vpon the bookes and places by me alledged and then to beleeue their owne eyes For I not onely gathered their sayings out of their owne bookes but also after I had my self gathered them and caused them to be faire copied out I diligently conferred them with their books and admitted none which he that read their bookes did non find to be truly cited out of them Wherfore I say for my self as Caluin said for him self against Gentilis There shal be no colour for them to cōplaine that they are slandered seing I request that iudgmēt be made of their impietie out of their owne mere words And they who haue had to deale with Protestants ether by word or writing know well how important a thing it is to be able to conuince them that they teach that which in in very deed they teach which may clearly be done by their sayinges here rehearsed 12. The fourth commoditie of this worke is thar hereby shall appeare that almost in all controuersies which betwene Catholiks and Protestants Catholiks do stick fast to the very words of Scripture and religiously keepe her letter and forme of speech and Protestants goe fare from the words at lest of Scripture and bring in a different yea quite opposit forme of speech Nether ought they to think this to be a small fault both because they boasting of the pure and expresse word of God ought also to keep the very letter thereof and not to reiect it and to vse the contrarie as also because the Apostle commandeth to auoide profane nouelties of words and to keepe the 1. Timoth. 6. 2. Timoth. 1. forme of holesome words which we haue learned of him which commandment they do not follow who forsake the Scriptures forme of speech and embrace the contrarie and finally because not onely the sense but also the words and forme of speech vsed by the Scripture did proceed from the holie Ghoste and therefore it is sacrilegious audacitie to reiect Gods words and Gods forme of speaking and to bring in mans words and fashion of speaking quite contrarie As if these new Ghospelers should teach God how to deliuer his mind or he ment to speake otherwise by them then he did by his Prophets Apostles and Euāgelists wherefore their impietie is not to be borne withall who when the Scripture most often and most plainly calleth the beleefe of wicked men or reprobats faith and neuer denieth it to be faith yet dare say that it Caluin 3. Instit c. 2. §. 10. is vnworthie the name of faith When the Scripture often times and most directly calleth the Eucharist the bodie of Christ and not once directly denieth it to be his bodie yet dare say it is not his bodie And the like they doe in many other matters wherin if they controll not the meaning of the holie Ghoste at least they correct his speech and reforme it according to the square of their new doctrin Far otherwise proceeded the holie Fathers who would not suffer so much as a letter or syllable of the holie Scripture to be altered And as S. Austin grauely aduertized Philosophers may speake as they please but we speake according Lib. 10. de Ciuit. c. 23. to a certaine rule lest licencie in words breed impious opinions of the thing which they signifie Yea Protestants them selues some times will seeme to be very carefull of the words and phrases of Scripture For thus speaketh Luther If the In Confutat Latomi f. 227 Scripture terme any thing sin beware thou beest not moued by any words of theirs who as if they could speake better deny it to be sin And Caluin There is to be taken out of Scripture a 1. Instit c. 13. §. 3. certaine forme of thinking speaking by which all the thoughts of our mynd and words of our mouth are to be examined Beza Ad defens Castell also I see that all godlie and learned Diuines haue euer taught that the holie Ghost gouerned not onely the mynd but also the tongue and pen in so much as concerning the wonders of God not onely nothing can be saied of any mā more truly or more habily but also nether so grauely nor so properly Likewise Bucer Prefat in Math. No wisdom of the flesh can reach to these misteries of the kingdome of God Therefore then we speake most plainly most perspicuously and most surely of matters of faith when we speake according to the rule and forme of Scripture And otherwhere we In Hospin part 2. Histor must learne of the Scripture and the holie Ghoste how to speake and think of euerie matter Wherefore the holie Ghost his formes of speaking ought not to be corrected according to the iudgment of our reason Thus they which if they and theires had followed we should not haue had so much speech contrarie to the Scripture 13. The fift and that no small cōmoditie is that by this worke wil be taken from ministers all their false pretense of Scripture and of the worde of God wherewith perpetually they crie that the Catholik
Thus by their greater antiquitie of their possession of the Bible and also by the greater antiquitie of the Bible it self did the ancient Christians proue against Heretiks both that their Bibles were the true Bibles and also that they were the true owners of them But manifest it is that Catholiks are ancienter possessors of the holie Scripture then Protestants be in so much as we shall see Protestants confesse that they had the Scripture of Catholiks Therefore Catholiks are the true owners of the Scripture The fourth proof is taken from that there can be no 4. title no beginning of possession named place or time named where or when Catholiks first began to take possession of the holie Scripture besides the very time of Christ and his Apostles who alone could giue true and lawfull possession of the Scripture Whereas See Author of the Prot. religion l. 2. c. 13. we can name the place and time when Protestants first began to Vsurpe possession of the holie Scripture Which is long after the time of Christ and his Apostles And all reason bindeth vs to accounte them the true owners of a thing the beginning of whose possession can not be found but at the very time of the first giuers thereof rather then those whose possession began manie hundreds of years after The fift proof I will ground vpon that the Catholiks 5. title the integritie of Scripture haue conserued the holie Scripture incorrupt For theeues and wrong possessors vse to disfigure the thing they haue stolne as much as they can that it may not be knowne Besides the Scripture must needs be contrarie to the vsurpers and agreable to the true owners therefore necessitie forceth vsurpers to alter the Scripture as false heires are forced to alter the will or testament if they get it into their hands Wherevpon we see that scarce euer there were anie Heretiks who haue not saught to corrupt the Tertul. de prescript c. 17 38. Scripture albeit Catholiks cried out against their sacrilegious impietie How much more then would Papists haue corrupted the Scripture especially whiles for manie ages there were no visible Protestants to reproue them if they had not beene the true owners of the Scripture But Catholiks haue not in all these ages in which Protestants were inuisible corrupted anie parte of the Scripture as is euident by that Protestants confesse that Scripture which they had of Catholiks to be pure and incorrupt Nether do Protestants obiect to Catholiks anie corruption made by them in the Hebrew or Greek text and the vulgar Latin they will haue to be ancienter then Papistrie it self But contrariewise Catholiks haue euer since the beginning of Protestancie charged Protestāts with manie and greiuous corruptions of holie Scripture Wherefore thus I argue All reason teacheth vs to iudge them to be the true owners of a testament who are the freest from corrupting it But Catholiks are farre more free from corruptinge the testament of Christ then Protestants Therefore c. The sixt proof I will take from the Protestants graunt Sixt title graunt of Protestants that they had the Scripture from Catholiks Luther in 16. Ioan. to 4. Germ. witenb fol. 227. There is an argument which can very hardly be wrested from the Papists and which I my self can very hardly answere and refute especially sith we are forced to giue and graunt them so manie thinges which are true to wit that in Poperie is the word the Apostleshippe and that we receaued the holie Scripture baptisme the Sacraments and office of preaching from them otherwise what should we haue knowne of all these things And to 5. in 1. Gal. fol. 293. we had indeed the Scripture and the Sacraments of the Papists Schusselburg to 8. Catal. Haeres p. 439. VVe denie not that Luther saieth that in Poperie is all Christian good and from thence came to vs. D. Daue of Recusancie p. 13. VVe hould the Creed of the Apostles of Athanasius of Nice of Ephesus of Constantinople which the Papists also do hould and the same Bible which we receaued from them Whitaker Cont. 2. q. 5. c. 14. Papists haue the Scripture Baptisme Catechisme the articles of faith the ten commandements the lords praier and these things come from thē to vs. Iames Andreas li. cont Has p. 316. VVe denie not that we receaued the Scriptures from you The like hath Spalatensis lib. cont Suar. c. 1. n. 34. and others A question proposed to Protestants Wherefore I aske the Protestāts how they had the Scripture of vs Did we giue it them Did we sell it them Did we change it with Did we relinquish it as a forlorne thing No one of all these can they proue or affirme with anie apparence How then get they the Scripture from vs but as theeues get the true mens goods and as Turkes and Iews get the same Scripture from vs If anie say as Andrews and Schusselb do intimate that Protestants had the Scripture of Catholiks as Christians had the ould testament of the Iewes I answere that Christians had not the ould testamēt of the Iewes if by Iewes they meane such as remained Iewes For Christians had the ould testament of the Apostles and they of Christ who was lord of the ould and new testament as they had from him the Sacraments and all other goods of the Church Besides euerie Heretik may pretend this as well as Protestants Wherefore thus I argue They whome their aduersaries confesse to haue had the Scripture before them selues and can tell no lawfull means by which they had the Scripture from them are according to all reason to be held the true owners of the Scripture rather then their aduersaries But such are Catholiks in respect of Protestants Therefore c. The seuenth proof I will take from the open and manifould Seuenth title other confessions of Protestant confessions of Protestants For first they confesse that Catholiks are the true Church of Christ as I haue shewed at longe in my foresaied booke of the Author of the Protestant religion lib. 1. c. 2. to which I add these few Spalatensis lib. 5. de repub c. 6. n. 236. The Rom. Church is not gone so farre from the foundation as that she is to be put wholy out of the membres of the Churches of Christ lib. cont Suarem c. 1. n. 20. I think as I haue often saied that the Rom. Church with those that follow here are the true Church of Christ D. Featlie in his Refutation of Fisher p. 82. The Rom. Church we acknowledge to be a member though a sicke and weake one of the Catholik visible Church The like hath D. Hall in his booke of ould religion and his twoe defenders Chalmeley and Batterfeild whereof the latter in his preface saieth he will demonstrate that the Rom. Church is a true Church Now certaine it is that the true Church is the true ower of the Scripture Secondly they confesse that Catholik Pastors are true
authoritie of the Church THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely saieth that the Church is the pillar and ground of trueth The same say Catholiks Protestants expressely say that the Church doth not sustaine or conserue the trueth that faith relieth not vpon her authoritie that trueth doth not relie vpon her authoritie as a foundation no not in regard or respect of vs. THE SVMME OF THIS CHAPTER OF the Church What hath beene repeated in this Chapter doth make manifest that Protestants describe vnto vs a Church quite different from that which the holie Scripture and Catholikes propose For the Scripture and Catholiks teach that the Church is but one Protestants say there are twoe Churches They say she containeth both badde and reprobates that she endureth for euer is alwaies visible infallible in faith is simply in all things to be heard and is the pillar of faith touching vs All which points Protestants denie They also make manifest that Protestants steale from the Church a great parte of her to wit the badde and reprobate faithfull and manie of her chiefe properties namely vnitie perpetuitie continuall visibilitie infallibilitie and our dependencie vpon her in beleife And thus much of the Church Now of Temples or materiall Churches CHAPTER VIII OF TEMPLES OR MATERIALL CHVRCHES ART I. WHETHER THE CHVRCHES be also for priuat praier SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. KINGS 3. cap. 8. ver 41. Moreouer also the stranger Place of praier for a straÌ„ger which is not of thy people Israel when he shall come from a farre countrie for thy name and shall pray in this place thou shalt heare in heauen in the firmament of thy habitation and shalt do all things for which the stranger shall inuocate thee 2. Paralipomen 6. vers 21. Whosoeuer shall pray in this For whomsoeuer place heare out of thy habitation that is from the heauens and be propitious Mathew 21. vers 13. It is written my house shal be called a house of praier Luc. 2. v 37. Who departed not from the temple by fastings For S. Anne and praiers seruing night and day c. 24. v. 53. And they were alwaies in the Temple praising and blessing God CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME Cardin. Bellarm. lib. 3. de Santis cap. 4. The Churches of Christians are rightly instituted for to pray also priuate praiers PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Tindal in Fox Actes 1610. pag. 1138. Churches are for preaching For preaching onely onely And Fox addeth This article containeth nether errour nor honestie Vorstius in Antibellarm p. 327. Nether is this a lawfull end Not for priuat praier of Churches that the faithfull pray priuaty in them Luther in Festo Dedicat. Templi fol. 447. The people which beleiue in Christ are all iust and subiect to no law especially Not dedicated to praier that pertaineth to ceremonies of temples And therefore now amongst them there is no temple dedicated to praier And hereupon Protestants in Confes Heluet. c. 23. bidde them beware that they wearie not the people with to long praier And in Confess Argentinen cap. 21. They detest our long paier as also doth Caluin in Matth. 6. ver 7. and finally in their Synod at Dordrach art 46. they define that publik euening praiers are not to be brought in where they are not in vse and to be taken away where they are So well these men loue praiers in Churches THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely saieth that Gods Church is the house of praier for all people a place of praier where the stranger may make his praier and be heard that Anna night and day praied in the temple that the Apostles were alwaies in the temple praising God The same say Catholiks Protestants expressely say that Churches are onely for preaching that is no lawfull end of Churches to pray priuatly in them that Christians haue no temple dedicated to praier and forbidde long and euening praier in Churches ART II. WHETHER CHVRCHES BE to be adorned SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. Exod. 35. is described the wonderfull adorning of the tabernacle Churches are to be adorned made by Gods commandment and 3. Reg. 6. the most rich ornaments of the temple made by Salomon Psalme 25. v. 8. I haue loued the beautie of thy house Marc. 14. v. 15. Say to the maister of the house that the Maister saieth where is my refectorie where I may eate my Paske with my disciples And he will shew you a great chamber adorned and there prepare for vs. CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME D. Stapleton in Ioan. 12. v. 3. Sumptuous dâ—cking and honorable adorning when they are done in the honour of God and for his worshippe ether in the adorning or magnifencie of Churches or in solemne administration of Sacraments doe please God PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Perkins in Problemate c. de ornatu temploruÌ„ The errour Not to be adorned of adorning temples began to be strange in Constantins time and the Fathers theÌ„ being caried away with the custome do exact the adorning of temples Caluin in Math. 26. v. 11 Let vs not deuise sumptuous worshippes of God with the Papists In Ioan. 12. v. 6. Surely God careth not for externall pompe wherefore they are preposterous interpreters who out of Christs answere do infer that costly and magnificall worshipps do please God Tigurini apud Hospin part 2. Hist fol. 24. The ornaments of Churches belonge not to the true worshippe of God Vorstius in Antibellarm p. 327. It is not onely superfluous but also vaine and superstitious and in parte ethnicall also and Iewish to make great and vnprofitable expenses in adorning Churches as euerie where vseth to be done in Poperie For that theatricall brauerie is contrarie to the simplicitie of Christian religion THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely teacheth that God himselfe comcommanded the tabernacle to be adorned that Salomon by his instinct adorned the temple that Dauid loued the beautie of Gods house that Christ made choice of a great and adorned chamber wherein he should celebrate the Eucharist The same say Catholiks ProtestaÌ„ts expressely say that the adorning of Churches is an errour superfluous vaine superstitious ethnicall and Iudaicall and contrarie to Christian religion that magnificall and costlie worships please not God ART III. WHETHER IT BE LAWEFVLL to put the Images of Angels or Saintes in Churches SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. Exod. 25. v. 18. God thus commandeth Two Cherubins Images in the Temple also thou shalt make of beaten gould on both sides of the Oracle And vers 22. And I will speake to thee ouer the Propitiatorie and from the middest of the two Cherubins which shal be vpon the arke of testimonie all things which I will coÌ„mand the children of Israel by thee 3. Reg. 6. vers 23. And he Salomon made in the Oracle two Cherubs of oliue trees of ten cubits in height And v. 27. And he put the Cherubs in the middest of the inner temple CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME Councel of Trent Session 25. c. de Inuocat The Images of Christ and other Saintes
mouth Math. 3. v. 4. And his S. Ihons meate was locusts and wild And S. Ihon Baptiste honie Luc. 1. v. 15. And wine and sicer he shall not drinke c. 7. ver 33. For Ihon baptist came nether eating bread nor drinking wine The like is saied of the mother of Sampson Iudic 13 v. 4. and of the Rechabits Hieremie 35. Rom. 14. v. 21. It is good not to eate flesh and not to drinke Good not to eate flesh or drinke wine wine nor that wherein thy brother is offended or scandalized or weakened CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME C. Bellarm de bonis operibus in part l. 2. c. 7. If Ionadab could for euer forbidde his children and nephews wine and both his commandment and their obedience pleased God why cannot our mother the Church forbidde her children some meates for a time so that both the Churches precept and our obedience please God PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Whitaker ad Ration 9. Campiani It is madnesse to haue Madnesse to vse choice of meates for religion Foolish and wicked No seruice of God anie choice of meates for religion sake Perkins in Cathol Contr. 12. cap. 2. We hould this distinction of meates both to be foolish and wicked Confessio Argentinensis c. 9. We haue omitted that choice of meate which was commanded vpon certaine dayes which Saint Paul attributeth to the doctrine of Diuels Caluin in Luc. 1. v. 15. We must not imagin a seruice of God No seruice of God Fond superstition in oâ—stayning from wine Beza in Confess cap. 5. sect 41. This choice of meats which some make a seruice of God we doubt not with the Apostle to call a diuelish and most fond superstition THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressâ—ly saieth that Daniel many days abstained froÌ„ fleâ—h wine and desiderable bread that S. Ihon Baptiste nether eate bread nor drunke wine or sicer that it is good not to eate flesh nor to drink wine Catholiks say the same Protestants expressely say that the choice of meats is superstitious foolish madnesse wicked and diuelish doctrine that there is no seruice of God in abstinence from wine And thus much of Fasting ART VIII WHETHER IT BE LAWFVLL to pray for all SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. 1. Timoth. 2. vers 1. I desire therefore first of all things that We must pray for all men obsecrations praiers postulations thanks giuings be made for all men Exod. 32. v. 32. Moises thus praieth for the idolatrous people Moyses praied for all Ether forgiue this trâ—spasse or if thou do not strike me out of the booke that thou hast written CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME C. Bellarm. lib. 1. de Septem verbis Dom. c. 1. saieth that Christ vpon the crosse praied for Pilat and the chiefe Preists Scribes and people of the Iews PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Rainolds in Apologia thesium p. 245. Nether must we pray We must not pray for euerie one for euerie one For we are forbidden to pray for them that sinne to death Wherefore where we are bidden to pray for all the world All designeth all kinds not all of euerie kinde Beza in Ioan. 5. ver 16. Hereof it followeth that no sinnes Not for reprobates are veniall to the reprobates and therefore we must not make praiers for the sinnes of the reprobates Daneus in orat Dom. p. 593. saieth that Thy will be done belongeth not properly to reprobates as if we praied God that they quietly and willingly submitt themselues to God and doe and execute his will out of their harte faithfully and obediently Piscator in Thesibus lib. 3. loco 11. We ought to pray for all Nor for those that sinne to death that are aliue they onely excepted whome we see do sinne to death The same also saieth Bucanus in Instir loco 17. to which he addeth loco 37. that a man must not pray for the obdurated or those that sinne against the Holie Ghost THE CONFERENCE Scripture plainely saieth that we must pray for all and that Moises praied for the idolatrous people amongst whome manie were reprobates The same say Catholiks Protestants plainely say that we must not pray for all not for reprobates not for those that sinne to death not for the indurated not for those that sinne gainst the Holie Ghost ART IX WHETHER IT BE LAWFVLL to pray for the dead SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. 2. Mach. 12. vers 43. And Iudas making a gathering sent twelue thousand drachmes of siluer to Hierusalem for sacrifice to be offered the for sinnes of the dead Et ver 16. It is therefore a A holie thing to pray for the dead holie and healthfull cogitation to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sinnes CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME Councel of Trent Sess 25. c. 1. The Catholik Church teacheth that the soules detained in Purgatorie are holpen by the suffrages of the faithfull PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Iewel art 18. sect 3. p. 433. This kinde of praier for the dead It is superstitions is mere superstitious and vtterly without warrant of Gods word Confessio Seotica generalis We detest his Popes praiers Detestable for the dead Caluin Epistola 366. That forme of praier God giue the One may wish well to the dead but not pray dead a good and happie resurrection because it is not fitting to the rule of good praier is to be reiected yet I do not denie but that one may make such a wish Brentius in Dom. 12. post Trinit Albeit we may wish all happines to the dead yet praier for them is vaine Confessio Witten bergen c. de Memoria de functorum Charitie requireth that we wish all rest and happines in Christ vnto the dead But there is no testimonie of Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine that they be holpen by our praiers THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely saieth that the people of God vnder the law offered sacrifices for the dead which Caluin also confesseth 3. Instit c. 5. § 8. and that it is a holie and healthfull thing to pray for them that they be loosed from their sinnes The same say Catholiks Protestants expressely say that it is lawfull to wish good to the dead but that to pray for them is vaine superstitious and detestable And yet Luther Serm. de de Diuite Lazaro to 7. f. 268. de Captiuit Babylon f 72. and cont Catharin f. 151. Et in Hospin Concordia discor f. 225. Apologia Confess Augustan c. de vocabulis Missae Agenda Anglica apud Bucerum p. 427. 449. Zuinglius art 60. Vrbanus Regius and others allow praying for the dead ART X. WHETHER IT BE LAWFVLL to pray for that which God hath not promised SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. Math. 26. ver 39. Christ thus praieth My Father if it be Christ praied for that which was not promised to him And S. Paul And Abraham and Dauid possible let this chalice passe from me 2. Cor. 12. vers 8. For the which thing thrice I besought our Lord that
pastors as is shewed in the saied booke c. 2. cit and Caluin in Ezechiel c. 3. v. 9. saieth that Papists chalenge the name of the Church because they pretend a continuall succession And indeed saieth he we are forced to confesse that they haue the ordinarie ministerie And who can denie but the true Pastors of Gods Church are true owners of Gods worde which they haue authoritie to preach Thereby they confesse that Catholiks are true possessors of the holie Scripture For thus writeth Luther to 2. Germ. fol. 279. cited by Scarpius in Eccles c. 6. VVe confesse that vnder Poperie are manie Christian goods yea all Christian good and that it came from thence to vs. Namely we confesse that in Poperie is true holie Scripture true baptisme true office of preaching true Sacrament of the altar true keyes to forgiue sinnes true Catechisme Nay I say that in Poperie is true The kernell of Christianitie in Poperie Christianitie yea the very kernell of Christianitie and manie great Saintes And Hall Chalmeley and Batterfeild graunt that Luther wrote thus and seeme to allow it Luther also to 6. in c. 28. Genes saieth we confesse that Papists haue the Church because they haue baptisme absolution the text of the Ghospel and there are manie godlie men amongest them The eight proofe shal be from the Confession of such 8. title Confession of strangers as nether are Catholiks nor Protestants For as Vorstius writeth in Antibell p. 181. Iewes Turkes and Pagans do think that the Christian religion consisteth cheefly in Poperie And Whitaker Cont. 2. q. c. 2. No other famous Church can be named in these latter times which was thought to be the Church and was called the Church but the Roman Church Nether let anie think that such as want faith can not be sufficient iudges in this matter For albeit they be not sufficient iudges in the question of the trueth of doctrin yet are they sufficient in question of facte as this is And in this Ioseph lib. Antiq. Euseb l. 7. c. 24. sorte the Heathens in the time of the ould law iudged betwene the Iewes and the Samaritans and in the time of the Ghospel betwene the Catholiks and the Samosatenians And as Christians can iudge what kind of Mahometans are the true owners of the Alcoran though they think not the Alcoran to conteyne true doctrin So may Infidels iudge what kinde of Christians be true owners of the Ghospel though they beleeue not the Ghospel to be the worde of God The ninth proof may be taken from the agreement of 9. title Agreement with Scripture the Cath. doctrin both in words and sense with the holie Scripture as shall appeare in this booke Which proofe though taken alone doe not conuince that Catholiks are true owners of the Scripture yet in conuinceth that they are true owners rather then Protestants who so farre disagree from the Scripture both in words and sense The tenth proofe shal be that Protestants against these 10. title weaknes of Protest Proofes so manie and so forcible proofes for the Catholiks can bring no other proofe for their right to Scripture then that they haue the true doctrin of Scripture Which argument taken alone is as I shewed at large in my saied booke De Authore c. lib. 2. c. 15. a fond Sophisme or Foularie First because Schismatiks haue the true doctrin of Scripture as I there proued by reason by the testimonie of holie Fathers and the confession of Protestants and yet are no true owners of the Scripture because they are no true mēbers of the Church as I there also proued Secondly for Protestants to proue that they be true owners of the Scripture because they haue the true doctrin thereof is to proue one vnknowne and false thing by an other as vnkowne and false Which is not to proue at all because all proofe must be from a thing more knowne Thirdly they nether proue that they haue the doctrin of the Scripture by expresse words of Scripture for these are quite against them as shal be shewed in this booke nor by plaine inference out of the words of Scripture as appeareth by the Catholiks answers vnto all their proofes nor finally they haue proued any thing before a lawfull iudge but all their proofes are such as euerie Heretike maketh Besides if truth of doctrin doe proue true right to Scripture it farre more maketh for Catholiks and no more for Protestants then for anie other Heretiks Out of all which hath beene saied in this Chapter it is most euident that if the light of reason may be iudge in this matter Catholiks must needs be counted the true owners of the holie Scripture because they haue all the foresaied Titles then the which both fewer and weaker would make a claime to worldlie matters out of all question of all which Protestants can pretend none but the last Secondly it is euident that if Catholiks be the true If Cath. be true owners of the Scripture all controuersies are ended owners of the Scripture the sacred testament of Christ they are also true owners of the holie Sacraments of the keyes of heauen to binde and loose sinnes of the means of saluation and of all the goods which Christ hath by his will and testament bequeathed to his Church For vndoubtedly all these things pertaine to them to whome Christs testament doth belong Thirdly it is euident that if Catholiks be true owners of the Scriptures Protestants be vniust vsurpers of them as Iewes Turkes and Infidels are and haue no more right to keep or vse them against Catholiks then theeues haue to vse true mens goods or weapons against them For cleare it is that Catholiks and Protestants are opposite Churches as I haue shewed in the foresaied booke De Authore lib. 1. c. 2. and lib. 2. c. 6. and that one of them is a false Church whereas the Scriptures were giuen and belong to one onely Church Wherefore we may well say to Protestants as Tertullian de Prescript c. 37. saied to Heretiks of his time VVho are you when and whence came you what doe you in mine being not mine By what right Marcion Luther doest thou fell my woods By what licence Valentin Caluin doest thou turne away my water By what authoritie Apelles Zuingle doest thou charge my bounds It is my possession what doe you strangers here sow and feed at your pleasure And the same say we to Protestants Let them first shew what right they haue to Scriptures before they argue out of them let them render vs our weapons or shew what iust title they haue to them before they fight with them against vs. For as the same Tertull. saieth c. 15. Here we first stop them that they are not to be admitted to anie dispute of Scriptures VVe must see whether they may haue them or no to whom belongeth the Scripture that he be not admitted to it to whom it appertaineth not And c. 19. The
Church Of the same opinion are other Protestants who say that the true Church of God is inuisible to men for such a Church cannot be ruled of mē or denie that anie reprobates though they be Pastors are members of the true Church For if they were Pastors of the true Church certainly they should be also members of the same and those principall And if no reprobates be Pastors of the true Church nether be any elect because those Pastors which are elect rule no other Church then that which those which are reprobate do As Saint Peter ruled no other kinde of Church then Iudas did THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely teacheth that Bishops rule that Church which Christ purchased with his blood that they edifie the bodie of Christ and that there are watch men vpon the walls of Hierusalem But Hierusalem the bodie of Christ the Church purchased with Christs blood is the true Church The same say Catholiks Protestants expressely teach that the rule of the Catholik or true Church is inuisible that she cannot be seene that noughtie prelats are not of the Catholik Church that Bishops are not pastors of the Catholik Church ART VII WHETHER PASTOVRS OF the Church be to be called Preists SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. Isaie 61. ver 6. speaking of the time of Ghospell saieth Pastours of the Church are to be called Preists And you shal be called the Preists of the Lord. To you it shal be saied The Ministers of our God And c. 66. v. 20. 21. And they shall shew forth my glorie to the Gentils And I will take of thē to be preists and leuits saieth our Lord. CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME C. Bellarm. l. 1. de Missa c. 17. S. Austin saieth that Bishops and Presbyters are properly called Preists PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Luther de Instit Ministr to 2. fol. 371. Who administer the Not to be called Preists word and Sacraments amongest people nether may nor ought to be called preists Caluin 4. Institut cap. 18. § 14. With what trust dare these sacrilegious follows call themselues preists of the liuing God Rainalds in his Conference c. 8. diuis 4. They who charge vs with falshood and corruption in that we call the Ministers of the Ghospell Elders are guiltie themselues of heresie and blasphemie in that they call them Preists Whitaker l. 9. cont Dur. sect 47. The names of Preists or Sacrificers do no way agree to the Ministers of the new testamēt but abusiuely and metonymically P. Martyr l. cont Gardiner col 1075. We call not our Ministers Preists Confessio Heluet. c. 18. We giue none of our Ministers the name of Preists THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely saieth that the Pastors of the Church shal be called Preists and that some of the Gentils shal of God be taken to be Preists The same say Catholiks Protestants expressely say that Pastors of the Church may not be called Preists that they call none of them Preists that it is sacrilege heresie and blasphemie to call them preists ART VIII WHETHER ANY CAN BE a Pastour and preach without mission or calling SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY DENIETH. Roman 10. vers 15. But how shall they preach vnlesse they None can preach without mission be sent Hebr. 5. ver 5. So Christ also did not glorifie himselfe that he might be made a highe preist Ihon 3. v. 28. A man cannot receaue any thing vnlesse it be giuen him from heauen CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY DENIE D. Stapleton in Rom. 10. v. 15. The roote of lawfull preaching is mission nether is there any lawfull power of preaching Gods worde where lawfull mission went not before PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME Art Smalcaldici pag. 353. In case of necessitie a lay man absolueth In necessitie a lay man absolueth Some may preach with out mission and becometh Pastor and Minister to an other Luther tom 2. German fol. 256. A Christian man hath so much power that not called he ought to come forth and teach in middest of Christians when he seeth the teacher there to erre Id. l. de Instit ministr f. 372. We haue shewed euidently that euerie one hath authoritie to minister the worde yea commandment if he see that there is none to teach or that they teach not aright who are The like ib. l. de Iudic. Eccles 376. de Captiuit f. 80. And Postilla in die S. Stephani f. 84. Stephen by his example giueth authoritie to euerie Christian to preach Christ in what place soeuer where they are desirous to heare Herbrand in Disp 11. Euen they who are not lawfully called may preach the word fruitfully Melancthon in disput to 4. p. 507. A lay man can absolue not onely in case of necessitie but otherwhere Iacobus Andreae in Colloq Montisbel p. 410. In case of necessitie when Ministers or other men are absent it is lawfull for a woman to comfort a sick man by preaching and absolue him of his sinnes Kemnitius also 2. port Exam. tit de Ministris p. 49. saieth that it is lawfull in case of necessitie to preach without lawfull vocation Peter Martyr in locis clas 4. c. 1. § 15. When a Church is not yet built and men are ignorant of Christian religion whosoeuer shal be there by chance who know Christ they are bound to preach him nether is ordination to be expected seing it cannot be had Beza de Notis Eccles vol. 3. Then wilt thou say shall it be lawfull for euerie one in the Church to teach No truely But where a generall disorder rageth vnder colour of order nether remedie can be expected from the authours of this euill then surely as when the cittie is on fire it is the parte of euerie good citizen out of order to bring water and cast vpon the fire so in this fire of the Church it is the duetie of euerie pious man according to his power to oppose himselfe to this euill Plessie de Eccles c. 11. We know that it is saied How shall they preach vnlesse they be sent But because when all things are done confusely and out of order we must not looke that all things may be done rightly and according to set order and forme For ether that the Church be admonished that there need reformation or that anie particular man take care of his saluation euerie Christian ought to know that he is called to that function by a generall vocation so that he burne with zeale of the glorie of God and charitie to his neighbour THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely saieth that none can preach vnlesse he be sent none can take any honour vnlesse it be giuen to him that Christ made not himselfe Preist or Pastour The same say Catholiks Protestants expressely say that one that is not called may fruitfully preach that any man may preach in case of necessitie or when there wanteth a Pastour or he erreth or when there is a generall disorder or men are desirous to heare that a lay man may absolue in case of necessitie and otherwise also
AFFIRME D. Stapleton Cont. 1. q. 2. art 1. The Catholik doctrine is that there is but one Church which we professe in our Creed and that she consisteth of the elect and reprobate PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Whitaker Cont. 2. q. 1. c. 7. We say that the Church consisteth Reprobates not of the Church indeed not of reprobates but of onely predestinate Agayne A reprobate may seeme to be of the Church but he cannot be indeed of the Church And q. 5. c. 3. That is a false Church which consisteth of reprobates Rainalds in Apol. Thes p. 170. I determine that the elect alone are contained in the Church of the Creed M. Perkins de praedest tom 1. col 154. A reprobate is but in Onely in shew members of the Church shew onely a member of Christ Abbats in Diatribam Thomsoni c. 8. Reprobates are not reputed in the Church Caluin in 1. Ioan. 2. v. 19. Ihon plainly pronounceth that they Neuer members of the Church who falle away were neuer members of the Church Beza in Confes cap. 5. sect 8. As for the rest Beside the elect they are not be numbred among the members of the Church albeit they were Apostles Daneus Cont. 4. p. 689. The true Church of God containeth onely his elect Pareus Colloq Theol. 1. disput 12. The reprobate are not truely and indeed of the Church nor belonge vnto it before God Not truely of the Church Sadeel in Refutat Posnan c. 4. Reprobates pertaine not to the true Church And Musculus in the former article will not so much as the name of the Church to be bestowed vpon the reprobates THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely teacheth that those who are to be be cast out and to be burnt with vnquenchable fire that is reprobates are in the kingdome of heauen and in the flore of God that is in his Church Catholiks say the same Protestants expressely teach that reprobates are not in the Church not in the true Church not in the Church of the Creed not indeed not before Good that the Church the true Church containeth onely the elect that the re-reprobates onely in shew and apparence can be of the Church that they deserue not the name of the Church that she is a false Church which consisteth of the reprobates ART IV. WHETHER THE CHVRCH continueth euer SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. Mathew 16. vers 18. Thou art Peter and vpon this rock Church inuincible will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it Luke 1. v. 33. And he shall reigne in the house of Iacob for Shall haue no end euer and of his kingdome there shal be no end CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME D. Stapleton Cont. 1. q. 3. art 2. The Church of Christ continueth to the end of the world PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Apologie of the Church of England Longe agoe hath The whole Church cleane fallen downe the Bishop of Rome willed to haue the whole Church depend vpoÌ„ himselfe alone wherefore it is no meruaile though it be cleane fallen downe longe agoe Agayne When we likewise saw that all thinges were quite troden vnderfoote by these men and that nothing remained in the temple of God but pittifull spoiles and decaies we reckoned c. Cartwright in Whitgifts Defense p. 217. When Antichrist Rooted out from the ground had rooted out the Church euen from the ground c. Luther in c. 49. Genes tom 6 The Pope hath extinguished the Church Caluin cont Sadolet p. 132. The matter came to that passe that it was cleare and manifest both to the learned and vnlearned Christ kingdome flat downe that the true order of the Church theÌ„ perished Christs kingdome was cast flat downe when this principalitie of the Pope was erected Beza in Conf. c. 5. sect 29. But for that horrible tyranie of the Popedome which ouerthrew the whole Church and whicb almost alone doth stay her renewing we c. Daneus in l. Augustini de Haeres c. 95. About the yeare of our lord 574. arose this destruction plague and tyranie of the Rooted out from the foundation whole Church which after rooted out the kingdome of Christ from the foundation Chassanio l. 2. de Ecclesia p. 151. It is false That the Church shall neuer be broken of More of ther like sayings may be seene in my 2. booke of the Author of the Protestant religion c. 1. Where also c. 2. I haue refuted their euasions THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely saieth that the gates of hell shall not preâ—aile against the Church that there shal be no end of the kingdome of Christ The same say Catholiks Protestants expressely say that the whole Church was cleane fallen downe long agoe that nothing remained in the temple of God but pittifull spoiles decaies that the Church was rooted out from the ground the Church extinct the whole Church ouerthrowne the whole Church destroied that the kingdome of Christ was cast flat downe and rooted out from the foundation which are so contrarie to the Scripture as sometimes Protestants confesse no lesse See lib. 2. cap. 30. ART V. WHETHER THE CHVRCH BE alwaies visible SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. Matth. 5. vers 15. Christ thus speaketh to his disciples or Church cannot be hiddeÌ„ Church You are the light of the world A cittie cannot be hidde situated vpon a mountaine And c. 18. v. 17. And if he will not heare them tell the Church And if he will not heare the Church let him be to thee as the Heathen and the Publican Isaie 62. v. 6. Vpon thy walles Hierusalem I haue appointed Wacth meÌ„ for euer in the Church wachmen all the day and all the night for euer they shall not hould their peace CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME D. Stapleton Cont. 1. q. 3. art 1. The Church which we are to beleiue must necessarily alwaies be visible There must alwaies be a visible Church PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Whitaker Cont. 2. q. 2. c. 1. Their Papists opinion is that Militant Church inuisible the militant Church is alwaies visible But we teach that the whole Church that is the Catholik is inuisible not onely the triumphant parte but also the militant Et q. 4. c. 1. We confesse that there is alwaies on earth some number of them who piously worshippe Christ and hould the true faith and religion but we say that this member is not alwaies visible Their Papists opinion is that there is perpetually some visible Church on earth Caluin in Praefat. Instit Papists will haue the forme of the Church not apparent Church to be alwaies apparent and visible we on the contrarie affirme that the Church may consist of no apparent forme Et in Catechismo c. de fide She is not alwaies seene with eyes discerned by markes Daneus Cont. 4. l. 3. c. 12. Oftentimes God will haue some visible Oftentimes no visible Church Church on earth oftentimes none And l. 4. c. 8. The
true Church may some time faile to be visible Scarpe de Iustif Cont. 5. The members of the visible Church The whole visible Church may faile In the vttermost extent may faile yea the whole visible Church as such Vorstius in Antibellarm p. 136. Whence it followeth that the visible Church of Christ not onely in a great parte but euen whole taken in the vttermost extent may for sometime faile from the true faith and be wholy obscured Againe The externall Church of Christ may be obscured and faile More of their like sayings may be seene in my foresaied booke c. 4. THE CONFERENCE Scripture plainly teacheth that the Church of Christ cannot be hidden and biddeth vs to tell and heare her The same say Catholiks Protestants plainly teach that there is not alwaies a visible number of those who piously worshippe Christ that the Church may haue no apparent for me is not alwaies seene with eyes sometimes faileth to be visible that the whole visible Church as such may faile that the whole visible Church taken in her vttermost extent may faile from the faith that God oftentimes will haue no visible Church on earth Which are so opposite to Scripture as Protestants sometimes confesse it See l. 2. c. 30. ART VI. WHETHER THE CHVRCH be infallible in faith SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. Isaie 59. vers vltim This is my couenant with them saieth Gods spirit euer in the mouth of the Church our Lord My spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not departe out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of thy seeds seede saieth our Lord from this present for euer Mathew 16. vers 18. And the gates of hell shall not preuaile Gates of hell preuaile not against her against it Ioan. 16. v. 13. But when the Spirit of trueth cometh he shall teach you all trueth 1. Tim. 3. ver 15. Which is the Church of the liuing God the The pillar of trueth pillar and ground of trueth CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME D. Stapleton Controu 4. qu. 2. art vnico The Church in her determinations of faith is euer must certaine and infallible PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Whitaker Cont. 2. q. 4. cap. 3. God hath not promised to his The vniuersall Church may erre In necessarie matters The whole Church Church that she should not erre The vniuersall Church may erre The whole Church may erre It is euident that the true Church may for a time erre euen in necessarie matters Yea after Christs ascension and that descent of the Holie Ghost vpon the Apostles it is manifest that the whole Church did erre about the vocation of the Gentils and not onely the common sorte of Christians but euen the very Apostles and Doctors And quaest 5. cap. 17. The Church may for a time erre in some fundamentall points Beza de notis Eccles vol. 3. If some particular Church may erre euen in some principall head of Christian religion and yet leaue not therefore to be a true Church why may we not say the same of all particular Churches taken not onely seuerally but all together for this is the Catholik Church And the margēt The Catholik Church and in fundamentall points The whole Churrh saieth Some errors may creepe into the Church euen in some fundamentall head of saith Daneus Controu 4. l. 3. c. 17. The whole Church all Pastors generally may erre The whole Church may be deceaued slippe and erre Author Resp ad Theses Vademont p. 503. The Catholik And grieuously Church may erre and that sometimes most grieuously The like they teach commonly THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely teacheth that Gods spirit and his word shall neuer departe from the mouth of the Church that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against her that the Holie Ghost teacheth her all trueth that she is the pillar and ground of trueth Catholiks say the same Protestants expressely teach that the Church the true Church the vniuersall Church the whole Church may erre most grieuously and in some fundamentall and necessarie matters that the whole Apostolik Church euen after the descent of the Holie Ghost did erre Which is so repugnant to holie Scripture as sometimes Protestants confesse it See lib. 2. c. 30. ART VII WHETHER THE CHVRCH be to be heard simply in all things SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. Matth. 18. v. 17. If he will not heare the Church let him be Church simply to be heard to the as the Heathen and the Publican Luc. 10. v. 16. Who heareth you heareth me and who despiseth you despiseth me CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME D. Stapleton Cont. 4. q. 2. art 3. We must simply and absolutely obey the voice of the Church in doctrine of faith PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Whitaker Cont. 1. q. 3. c. 3. We must not simply receaue whatsoeuer Not simply to be heard the Church teacheth but whatsoeuer she is commanded of God to teach and proueth by Gods authoritie And q. 5. c. 5. The Church is to be heard not simply in all her sayinges decrees sentences and commandments The same he hath Cont. 2. q. 4. c. 2. and l. 1. de Scriptura c. 11. Bucanus in Inst Theol. loco 43. Must we simply heare the voice of the Church and receaue whatsoeuer she teacheth No. Reineccius to 4. Armat c. 3. We must beleiue the Church in Not simply to be beleiued all things not taken simply and absolutely but relatiuely and with condition as farre as according to Scripture and out of that she proposeth diuine trueth THE CONFERENCE Scripture simply and absolutely biddeth vs to heare the Church and saieth that who heareth her heareth Christ The same say Catholiks Protestants denie that she is simply to be heard or obeyed ART VIII WHETHER TRVETH IN respect of vs do relie vpon the Church SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. 1. Timoth. 3. ver 15. Which is the Church of the liuing God Church the pillar of trueth the pillar and ground of trueth CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME D. Stapleton Controu 4. quaest 2. artic vnico The Church according to the ordinarie course is for faithfull men the pillar of all reuealed trueth and for faith it selfe the ground For the faitfull relie vpon the teaching of the Church as an vnmouable pillar PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Whitaker Contru 2. q. 4. c. 2. The trueth of faith doth not Not pillar in regard of vs. relie vpon the Church as a foundation no not in regard of vs. Trueth doth not relie vpon the authoritie of the Church Againe If the trueth of faith did relie vpon the authoritie of the Church in respect of vs who then c. Bucer in Disp Cantabrig It is manifest enough that no Sustaineth not trueth Church is to be termed the pillar and ground of trueth as if she did sustaine and conserue trueth Melancthon in locis c. de Signis Eccles to 3. Faith doth not relie wpon the
all men because it is saied 1. Tim. 2. v. 6. One Mediator of God and men the man Iesus Christ they limite this to the elect faithfull Beza Epist 28. It is false that Christ is mediator also of the infidels In like sorte Hunnius de Iustif pag. 179. restraineth that saying Hebr. 5. ver 9. He was made to all that obey him cause of eternall saluation to obedience in faith If we proue that vnwritten traditions of faith are to be Touching Traditions beleiued because S. Paul saieth without limitation 2. Thessal 2. ver 15. Stand and hould the traditions which you haue learned whether it be by word or by our epistle they limite this to onely traditions of rites or ceremonies Whitaker Contr. 1. q. 6. cap. 10. Other Protestantes thinke that Paul speaketh of certaine externall matters and rites of no great moment Academia Nemaus Resp ad Tournon pag. 554. By the word Tradition in the Apostles writings is meant ether the application and right handling of doctrine or the appointing of rites and discipline If we proue that Christ committed all his sheepe to S. Touching S. Peter Peter because without anie limitation he saieth to him Ioan. 21. v. 17. Feed my sheepe Whitaker Cont. 1. q. 5. cap. 5. answereth Christ doth not say to Peter Feed all my sheepe but speaketh indefinitely And Beza ib. in vers 15. Must Gods word be thus profaned Surely Christ did not adde All and the difference betwixt vniuersall and indefinite propositions is well knowne As if Protestants did not as well limitate vniuersall propositions as indefinite as appeared in the former chapter Besides Daneus Contr. 3. p. 127. faithfull An indefinite What Protest say of an indefinite proposition proposition is equiualent to an vniuersall And Caluin in 1. Ioan. 3. v. 3. An indefinite speach is as much as an vniuâ—â—sall And 4. Instit c. 17. § 29. It is our parte whatsoeuer is absolutely spoake of Christ so to embrace as without exception that take place with vs which he would say If we proue that the Church is alwaies famous and visible Touching the Church because Isaie c. 2. v. 2. saieth without limitation of time And in the latter dayes the mountaine of the house of our Lord shall be prepared in the top of mountaines and shal be eleuated aboue the litle hilles and all nations shall flow vnto it Et c. 61. ver 9. And they shall know their seed in the Gentils and their budde in the middest of peoples And Miche 4. v. 8. And the remanent of Iacob shall be in the Gentils in the middest of manie peoples as a Lion amoÌ„g the beasts of the forest Whitaker Contr. 2. q. 2. c. 2. answereth The Prophets foretell that no kingdome shal be so glorious no cittie so ample no Empire so large as the Church shal be in the times of the Messias But we neuer read that the Lord hath promised that this maiestie and glorie of the Church shal be constant and perpetuall Et Morton in Apolog. part 1. l. 1. c. 13. The league is indeed perpetuall but this so admirable successe is not alwaies so vniuersall but in a manner peculiar to the age of the Apostles If we proue that the Pastors of the Church be alwaies visible because Christ saieth of them Math. 5. v. 15. A cittie cannot be hid situated vpon a mountaine Whitaker loc cit answereth Albeit Christ say that godlie Doctors and Pastors shall not be obscure nor escape the sight of men yet he saieth not that there shal be alwaies such Doctors which may be as visible as mountaines If we proue that the Church is the pillar of all trueth of faith because S. Paul 1. Timoth. 3. ver 15. without anie limitation calleth her the pillar and strength of trueth Whitake Contr. 2. q. 4. c. 2. answereth In this place is meant not simply all trueth but onely necessarie trueth And Vorstius in Antibel p. 143. The Apostle speaketh not of euerie trueth that howsoeuer pertaineth to religion but onely of holesome trueth or which is necessarie to saluation and that conditionally also to wit so long as she shall remayne the true Church of Christ If we proue that the Church is alwaies infallible in faith because without limitation to anie time she is called loc cit The pillar and strength of trueth P. Martyr in locis clas 4. c. 4. § 21. saieth I graunt She is indeed the pillar of trueth but not alwaies but when she relieth vpon the word of God Confessio Heluet. c. 17. She erreth not as long as she relieth vpon the rock Christ and the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles Daneus Contr. 4. p. 717. The place of Paul speaketh of the visible Church which on earth is the keeper of heauenlie doctrine so long as she is true Bullinger Dec 4. Serm. 5. The Church erreth not so long as she heareth the voice of her Spouse and Pastor Herbrandus in Compend loc de Eccles She erreth not so long as she houldeth and followeth the word of God Of we proue that the Church is to be heard simply in all things because our Sauiour without anielimitation saieth Math. 18. v. 19. If he will not heare the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnik and Publican Whitaker lib. 1. de Scriptura c. 13. sect 1. answereth The Sonne of God himselfe commanded to heare the voice of the Church but not preaching anie thing but Scripture Herbrand loc cit saieth the Church is to be heard as long as she preacheth heauenlie and incorrupt doctrine Moulins in his Buckler p. 84. limitateth this speach of Christ to quarrels betwixt particular men and not to questions of religion The like saied Feild l. 4. de Eccles c. 4. and others If we proue that the Church in teaching cannot erre because Isaias saieth c. 59. v. 21. This is my couenant with them saieth our Lord My spirit is in thee and my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not departe out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of thy seeds seed saieth our Lord from this present for euer Whitaker libr. 1. de Scriptura cap. 11. sect vlt. answereth This promise is not made to the teaching Church but to the whole Church that is to the elect If we proue that the militant Church is perpetuall because the Scripture saieth that Christs kingdome shal be perpetuall Daneus Contr. 4. p. 718. answereth All these places and the like properly pertaine to that Church which God shall gather in heauen not on earth If we proue that the visible Church is alwaies the true Church because she is called 1. Timoth 3. the pillar of trueth Daneus loc cit pag. 721. answereth Let him know that the visible Church then and so long is saied to be the true Church as long as the voice of heauenlie and Euangelicall trueth soundeth in her If we proue that the visible Church cannot
conferred by them and ioyned with some humane principle and brought into sillogisticall forme Whereas a Iudge must be such as by himselfe without anie helpe of ether of the parties he can giue sentence Besides the sentence of the Iudge and especiallie if there can be no appeale from him must be so cleare as no man can doubt for whether partie it is But such is not the sentence of Scripture in manie controuersies Agayne there is controuersie betwene vs about diuers bookes of which the rest of the Scripture saieth nothing Finallie before Moises the Church had no Scripture and for sometime after Christ it had no parte of the new testament and yet she neuer wanted a Iudge And as we saw in the Chapter before Protestants confesse that Scripture of it selfe is not sufficient to determine all controuersies of faith and therefore not to iudge all Wherefore we must needs haue some other Iudge For these and the like causes some Protestants seing how absurd it is that Scripture is the onely Iudge in the Church say that Christ or the holie Ghost speaking in the Scripture is the Iudge Whitaker c. 7. cit We say that this Iudge is the holie Ghost speaking in the Scripture In like sorte Confes Heluet. c. 12. Academia Nemaus loc cit Lutherans in Colloq Ratisb sess 9. and others But seing Christ or the holie Ghost is no otherwise in the Scripture then as in a signe of his will to say that the holie Ghost as he is in Scripture is Iudge is no other thing indeed then to say that the Scripture is iudge And as the King as he is in his written laws is not a sufficient iudge of the common wealth because els eueÌ„ after his death he should be iudge but besides there must be a liuing iudge who both heareth and speaketh who can heare the parties and giue senteÌ„ce So nether is the holie Ghost a sufficient iudge is in the holie Scripture Others therefore acknowledge that there must be in the Church a speaking iudge or man For thus Eliensis loc cit Wherefore we all of long time demand a free and lawfull synod Protest admit a liuing Iudge in words And Lutherans in Colloq cit sess 9. We professe that God hath giuen some power to the Ministers and Doctors of the Church to iudge of controuersies of religion Neuerthelesse in trueth they denie the verie nature of the Iudge For ether they will not admit such a Iudge as we are bound to obeyâ— as appeareth by that they denie the vniuersall Church all Pastors or generall Councels to be infallible yea Moulins in the preface of his Bucler saieth that there But not in effect can be no greater temeritie then to desire that men sinners may be infallible iudges of the seÌ„se of the law And the LutheraÌ„s loc cit It is simply and absolutely certaine that the Ministerie may erre But this in trueth is to denie the Iudge whose end is The iudge in the Church admitteth not appeale to make peace and to compose debates which he cannot doe vnlesse men be bound to obey him and all the foresaied authorities reasons which proue that there ought to be a iudge in the Church proue also that he ought to be such from whome we may not appeale Wherevpon Whitaker CoÌ„t 1. q. 5. c. 4. thus writeth I answere that those words Deuteron 17. cit are to be vnderstood of authoritie to define hard contentions and controuersies as Ecclesiasticall by the Minister and politicall by the Magistrate that there might be in both some from whome there should be no appeale els there would be no end of contending But this he meaneth onely in the Nether in outward nor inward Courte externall or outward courte not in the inward courte of conscience For thus he addeth A great weight of iudgement was in the Priest and what he had once determined was good in the externall courte that so controuersies and debates might be ended And Cont. 4. q 1. cap. 2. Controuersies may be brought to the externall Courte and there defined but conscience resteth not in that Courte But this shift is easilie refuted First because the distruction of the externall Courâ—e is without cause deuised in this matter Secondlie because the peace of the Church especially consisteth in the internall courte to wit in faith Wherefore in this Courte we may not appeale from the Iudge of the Church otherwise there would neuer be peace of conscience Thirdly the practise of the Church in the Councell of the Apostles and in other generall Councels sheweth that the Iudge of the Church hath power to end controuersies euen in the inward courte of conscience Finallie if one were bound to obey the iudgement of the Church in the outward Courte and not in the inward it would follow that sometimes he were bound to denie Gods trueth before men to wit if the Church should define against Gods trueth Besides the authoritie of the Church is spirituall and ouer the soule and therefore her power of iudging extendeth it selfe euen to the inwarde Courte of the â—oule Wherefore let this be our 29. argument Whose doctrine in manie and weightie matters doth so contradict the expresse words of Scripture as they dare not admit anie Iudge in the Church they are to be thought to contradict the true sense of the Scripture But such are Protestants Therefore c. CHAPTER XXX THAT PROTESTANTS DOE SOMEtimes confesse that their doctrine doth contradict the holie Scripture THE last proof which we will make to shew that Protestants doe contradict the true sense of Scripture shal be taken from their owne confession wherewith sometimes they confesse it implicitlie sometimes plainelie and expressely Implicitly they confesse it diuers wayes First because they acknowledge that they Protest cannot reconcile their doctrine with the Scripture know not how to reconcile their doctrine with the holie Scripture Luther de seru arbit to 2. fol. 466. How this is iust that he God condemneth those that deserue it not is now incomprehensible yet it is beleiued till the Sonne of man be reuealed Et f. 486. In the light of grace it is vnanswerable how God condemneth him who with all his power can doe nothing but sinne and be guiltie Here both the light of nature and the light of Grace teach that it is not the fault of wretched man but of vniust God Et to 1. f. 390. It is a wonderfull probleme that God rewardeth iustice which himselfe reputeth iniustice Melancthon in Rom. 9. edit 1. This misterie is inexplicable that God both willeth sinnes and yet truelie hateth them Peter Martyr in locis Class 1. c. 16. § 9. It is no meruaile that we cannot vnderstand how it is not contrarie to Gods iustice to punish sinnes and by tempting to enforce them because God can doe more then we can vnderstand Caluin 1. Institut capit 18. § 3. By reason of the weaknesses of our vnderstanding we doe not