sinne of Protestants who do not only erre but also communicate with others who erre from which Communion we haue heard him confess that Charity Maintayned hath some probability to disswade men In the eyes of vulgar people this mixture of different Sects vnder one name of Protestancy may seeme a kind of good thing as bearing a shew of Charity yet indeed to wise men such communicants must appeare to be as litle zealous constant and firme in their owne Religion as they affect to be esteemed charitable to others And to every such Protestant doe fully agree those excellent words of glorious S. Austine de Civit Dei Lib 21. Cap 17. He doth erre so much the more absurdly and against the word of God more perversly by how much he seemeth to himself to Judge more charitably 12. Neither in this Discourse doe we relie vpon his wordsonly but on his Tenets and Grounds and such Truths as both hee often delivers and must be granted by all Christians namely that it is damnable to deny any least Truth sufficiently propounded to a man as revealed by God and therefore seing Protestants disagree about such Truths some of them must of necessity erre damnably And so he ought to alter the Title of his Book into the direct contradictorie and saie The Religion of Protestants not a safe way to salvation For bonum ex integra causa malum ex quocunque defectu and as we cannot affirme that Action to be vertuous which failes in any one morall circumstance so Protestants being confessedly guilty of damnable errours he must giue this Title to his Booke Protestancy not a safe way to salvation but vnrepented a certaine way to damnation 13. Or if he be resolved not to chang his Title vpon this Ground That albeit Protestants erre damnably yet they may be saved because they erre not in Fundamentall Articles absolutely and indispensably necessary to constitute one a member of the Church and in that regard may be either excused by Ignorance or pardoned by Repentance Then 14. I proue my second Proposition That for the verie same reason he must say and might haue put for the Title of his Book The Religion of Roman Catholiques a safe waie to salvation seing he expresly and purposely teaches through his whole Book that we erre not in fundamentall points and that we may be saved by ignorance or Repentance That our Errors be not Fundamentall he declares in plaine termes For Ch Ma in his preface to the Reader N. 13. having saied Since he will be forced to grant that there can be assigned no visible true Church of Christ distinct from the Church of Rome and such Churches as agreed with her when Luther first appeared whether it doe not follow that she hath not erred fundamentally because everie such errour destroyes the nature and being of the Church and so our Saviour should haue had no visible Church on earth To which demand Mr. Chillingworth answers in these words Pag 16. N. 20. I say in our sense of the word Fundamentall it does follow For if it be true that there was then no Church distinct from the Roman then it must be either because there was no Church at all which we deny Or because the Roman Church was the whole Church which we also deny Or because she was a part of the Whole which we grant And if she were a true part of the Church then she retained those Truths which were simply necessary to salvation and held no errours which were inevitably and vnpardonably destructiue of it For this is precisely necessary to constiture any man or any Church a member of the Church Catholique In our sence therefore of the word Fundamentall I hope she erred not Fundamentally but in your sense of the word I feare she did That is she held something to be Divine Revelation which was not something not to be which was Behold how he frees vs from all Fundamentall errors though he feares we are guilty of errours which he calls damnable that is repugnant to some Divine Revelation whereas he professes as a thing evident that some Protestants must erre fundamentally in that sense because they hold Contradictories of which both partes cannot be true And so even this for consideration he must say The Religion of Roman Catholiques a safer way to salvation than Protestancy seing he can not proue that we erre by Reason of any contradiction among ourselves in matters of Faith as it is manifest that one Protestant is contrarie to an other especially if we reflect that not onlie one particular or single person contradicts an other but whole Sects are at variance and contrariety as Lutherans Calvinists Anabaptists new Arians Socinians c The first point then it is cleare he confesses I meane that our supposed errours are not Fundamentall which is so true that whereas in severall occasions he writes or rather declaimes against vs for denying the cup to laymen and officiating in an vnknown toung as being in his opinion points directly contrarie to evident Revelation yet Pag 137. N. 21. he hopes that the deniall of them shall not be laid to our charge no otherwise then as building hay and stubble on the foundations not overthrowing the foundation itself 15. But for the second doth he hold that we may be excused by ignorance or saved by Repentance as he saieth Protestants may Heare what he speakes to Catholiques Pag 34. N. 5. I can very hardly perswade myself so much as in my most secret consideration to devest you of these so needfull qualifications of ignorancce and Repentance But whensoever your errors come into my minde my only comfort is amidest these agoriâ—s that the Doctrine and practise too of Repantance is yet remaining in your Church And this hee teaches through all his Book together with Dr. Potter and they vniversally affirme that those Catholiques may be saved who in simplicity of hart believe what they profess as they may be sure English Catholiques doe who might be begged for fooles or sent to Bedlam if they did not belieue that Faith and Religion be be true for the truth whereof they haue indured so long and grievous persecution Besides it being evident that many learned Protestants in the chiefest points controverted betwene them and vs agree with vs against their pretended Brethren as is specified and proved hereafter and is manifest by evidence of fact the Religion of Protestants cannot be safe or free from damnable Opinions vnless our Religion be also such For I hope they will not say that the selfe same Assertions taken in the same sense are true in the mouth of Protestants and false in ours We must therefore conclude that if he will make good his title The Religion of Protestants a safe way to salvation he must say the same of vs Catholiques whoâ— he acknowledges not to erre in fundamentall points and to be capable of inculpable Ignorance or Repentance for which selfsame respects he pretends The
say in your Answer to the Direction where having first set downe your nynth Motive to be a Catholique in these words Because the Protestant cause is now and hath been from the beginning mayntayned with grosse falsifications and calumnyes wherof their prime controversy Writers are notoriously and in high degree guilty Your answer is this N. 43. To the 9. Iliacos intra muros peccatur extra Papists are more guilty of this fault then Protestants Which though it be very false as it touches vs and not so much as offered to be proved by you yet it clearly destroyes your owne kind of Tradition For if both Protestants and Catholiks be notoriously and in high degree guilty of gross falsifications in these tymes why may not the same be sayd to Heretiks in former Ages according to your deduction from the six Ages last past to the six last Ages before them and vpward till we come to Christ himself And so neither Catholikes nor Protestants need now corrupt Authors or Historyes but will find it done to their hands vnless your meaning be that Protestants maintayne their cause with more gross falsifications and Calumnyes and are more notoriously and in a higher degree guilty therof than any Heretiks before them But why do I speak by Inferences and argue by parity of reason Since you also expressly directly and immediatly assirme what I inferred while you say to vs If you take this Authority vpon you vpon the six Ages last how shall we know that the Church of that tyme did not vsurpe the same Authority vpō the Authors of the six last Ages before thē and so vpwards till we come to Christ himself In which words you say much more then I inferrd that by your reasō we could not be sure but that as Protestāts are by your owne confession notoriously guilty of gross falsifications in a high degree so former heretiks haue bene For you speake even of the Church and aske how shall we know that the Church of that tyme did not Vsurpe the same Authority of corrupting vpon the Authors of the last six Ages before them and so vpwards till c And this will appeare more easy to haue bene done in the tymes nearest our Saviour and the Apostles when fewer Authors did write in so much as some Protestants affirme S. Justine to be the first whose Writings are not spurious and that helived Aº 140. And if the first writings and storyes be once corrupted what certainty can we haue of the rest And then Good Sr. If we cannot know but that the Church hath done this what is become of your tradition which for ought you proofess to know will deliver only fained Authors corrupted Storyes forged Miracles Apocriphall Scriptures But in this lyes a mystery not knowen to every one vnless he haue some acquaintance with Socinian Writers who press Protestants with this Argument If the Church might erre and is belieued by you to haue erred in the Ages next precedent to Luther and so vpwards from Age to Age till the first six hundred yeares after Christ which you say were pure what certainty or solid Reason can you alledg why the Church might not also erre in those yeares since you do not hold Her to haue bene Infallible An Argument vnanswerable by Protestants who ther for must either admit the Church in all Ages to be infallible or els can haue no certainty that she did not erre or corrupt or permitted the corruption of Authors and Storyes and Scriptures and forging of Miracles in any Age farr from or neere to the Apostles 83. 3. If the motives of Honour and profit which you Object against the Roman Church Would be very apt to make suspicious men belieue that Christian Religion was a humane invention taught by some cunning Impostors to make themselves rich and powerfull if there were no difference between the Christian and Roman Church I beseech you either informe vs what Christian Church distinct from the Roman or such as agreed with Her against Protestants was there before Luther to wipe away this your cause of suspition Or els giue vs leaue to inferr that you grant there was indeed cause of that suspotion You say Pag 14. N. 14. I know no Protestants that hold it necessary to be able to proue a perpetuall visible Church distinct from yours If this be not necessary it remaynes either that it is not necessary to free Christian Religion from being esteemed a humane invention taught by some cunning Impostors or that you are highly and even ridiculously injurious against the Roman Church as if she a one though not distinct from the Protestant Church could give occasion of any such wicked suspicion and finally that if still you will say there is any thing which would be apt to make suspicious men belieue that Christian Religion is a humane invētion it must be the Christian church herself which is a blasphemy fit for such as you are who reduce our belief of Scripture and the assent of Christian Faith to Probability Opinion and meere humane Tradition and such as being according to your Principles for ought you know corrupted is no better than a humane invention 84. 4. What you say of vs Whose questioned Doctrines none of them came from the fountaine of Apostolike Tradition but haue insinuated themselselves into the streames by litle and litle some in one Age and some in another some more Anciently and some more lately makes as I touched aboue a faire way to say the same of some Bookes or parcells or clauses of Scripture and of any Point of Christian Faith which some insidel or Heretike or other enemy of Christian Religion will say came not from the fountaine of Truth but haue insinuated themselves into the streames by litle and litle c which being once granted as possible to happen and we are not sure but in fact that happened if we deny a Living watchfull Guide assisted infallibly by the Direction of the Holy Ghost Your Tradition will also loose all credit as being subject to the like danger of not coming from the fountaine of Apostolike Tradition but of being corrupted forged and having insinuated itself by litle and litle c For if this may happen so easily to Authors Historyes Tradition and Doctrine your Tradition being confessedly no other but humane Historye is manifestly subject to the same exception and totall vncertainty 85. 5. You say of vs who make a profession of corrupting all sorts of Authors a ready course to make it justly questionable whether any remaine incorrupted I beseech you where or when made we profession of corrupting all sorts of Authors Yourself know this to be a vast vntruth But if it were true and were a ready course to make it justly questionable whether any remaine incorrupted it seemes by this your owne saying you cānot haue your Traditiō frō any sort of Authors which may not be justly questioned whether or no they remaine vncorrupted And is
haue it a necessary introduction to Faith I do not see how you can say this seing you profess to disallow S. Austines saying as we haue seene a little before That Whatsoever was practised or held by the vniversall Church of his tyme must needs haue come from the Apostles and how can that be a necessary introduction to Faith which either contaynes a falshood or is confessedly subject to errour as de facto you Protestants proclaime that the whole Church before Luther was fallen into grosse and as you speake damnable errours and you also say Pag 148. N. 36. An Authority subject to errour can be no firme or stable foundation of my belief in any thing and if it were in any thing then this Authority being one and the same in all proposalls I should haue the same reason to belieue all that I haue to belieue one and therfore must either doe vnreasonably in believing any one thing vpon the sole warrant of this Authority or vnreasonably in not believing all things equally warranted by it And therfor you expressly conclude in these words we belieue Canonicall Books not vpon the Authority of the present Church but vpon vniversall Traditiō But then how is that true which we haue heard you say The Church is though not ā certaine Foundation and proofe of my Faith yet a necessary introduction to it For seing Scripture is the certaine foundation and proofe of your Faith and that you belieue the Scripture not for the private spirit or other criteria as some Protestants doe nor vpon the Authority of the present Church but vpon vniversall Tradition it followes evidently that Vniversall Tradition of the Church is the certain Foundation and proofe of your Faith And this you cannot deny if you remember your owne Doctrine That men may belieue and be saved without Scripture but not without the Church according to your owne saying I must learne of the Church or of some part of the Church or I cannot know any thing Fundamentall or not Fundamentall and in particular that the Scripture is the Word of God Therfor say I the Church is a more necessary not only introduction to Faith but also Foundation and proofe of it then Scripture can be but if you will persist in this your Assertion that the Church as you take it for a fallible aggregation of men is not the Foundation of Faith and that Scripture both in truth and according to your owne Principles must be receyved from the Church what remaynes but that the Church must be infallibly assisted by the Holy Ghost in all matters belonging to Religion 91. Lastly to ptoue how easily men may be deceyved vnless they rely vpon some infallible Authority may appeare by what happened to myself who some yeares agoe falling vpon a wicked Book vnder a false name of Dominicus Lopez Societatis Jesu about the Authority of Scripture and as printed in a Catholique cittie it came to my minde that in tyme the Book might come to be accepted for such as the title professes My thoughts proved Propheticall For since that tyme a Catholique learned Writer cites it for such though vpon better information he declares afterward in the same Work that the Book was written by an Heretique and printed among Heretiques 92. And here I will end this Chapter having proved divers wayes that according to severall Doctrines of yours Scripture cannot be any Rule of Faith and much less a perfect one although we should falsely suppose that it did contayne evidently and in particular all Points necessary to be believed Wherfor it remaynes that seing Scripture alone cannot be a sufficient and totall Rule of Faith we declare what that Meanes is Which we will endeavour to performe in the next Chapter CHAPTER IV. A LIUING INFALLIBLE IVDG IS NECESSARY FOR DECIDING CONTROVERSYES IN MATTERS OF FAITH THE Premises set downe in the precedent Chapters did Virtually and implicitely containe and leaue it easy for Vs to infer explicitely and expressly as a conclusion the Title of this Chapter For since Christian Faith is the Gift of God and infallible since Scripture alone doth not evidently containe all necessary Points of Faith since your particular way of receiving Scripture as the word of God cannot be sufficient to erect an Act of infallible Faith no nor can be any Rule of Faith and much less a perfect Rule it followes necessarily that there must alwayes be extant a Living Uisible Judg which can be no other but the Church of God against which our B. Saviour promised that the gates of Hell should not prevaile This Deduction is so cleare that you are forced to acknowledg it Pag 326. N. 4. Where you affirme That Catholikes would faine haue the Doctrine of the infallibility of Christian Faith true that there might be necessity of our Churches infallibility Seing then both Catholikes and Protestants and al Christians firmely belieue Christian Faith to be infallible and that this cannot be defended without believing the infallibility of the church it followes that we must either acknowledg in Her such an infallibility or tell Christians that for ought they know all that they belieue of God of Christ of Scripture of the Resurrection of the Dead of Heaven of Hell of all the Articles of Christian Religion may proue no better than a dreame or an imposture or fiction Blessed be the infinite Wisdome and Goodness of God who destroyes the Wisdom of the Wise and the prudence of the prudent 1. Cor. 1.19 This Man was picked out among all the men in England to impugne the Roman Church his Book was approved by three chiefest men of an University and was excessively cryed vp by his friends neither did any Writer ever shew greater malice against the Roman Church than hee But with what success No other but this That Protestants must either deny with this man all Certainty of Scripture and Christianity or els acknowledg not the Scripture but the Church to be Judg of Controversyes in matters cōcerning religiō that is they must either renoūce Christianity by denying the infallibility of Christian Faith or abandon Protestancy by condēning their capitall doctrine of the fallibility of the Church and sufficiency of Scripture alone and so must returne to belieue and obey the Decrees and Definitions of Generall Councells and with them condemne the Heresyes which now themselves maintayne This then may be my first Argument to proue the infallibility of Gods Church and indeed this alone might suffice with Christians yet 2. 2. This Truth of the necessity of an infallible Judg appeares also by what hath bene sayd about Translations Additions Detractions Corruptions and loss of some Scriptures which would leaue vs in doubt and perplexity vnless we believed an infallible Authority able to supply all such defects and provide for all events 3. 3. Out of Charity Maintayned Part 1. Pag 64. N. 19. There must be some Judg fit for all sorts of Persons learned and vnlearned which the ignorant may
this Objection or invention no certainty can be had what the Apostles or other Preachers teach or teach not with infallibility Nor will there remaine any meanes to convert men to Christianity For every one may say that not the Poynt which he apprehends to be false was confirmed by Miracles but those other Articles which he conceaves to be true And so no Heretike can be convinced by Scripture which he will say is not the word of God except for his opinions and so nothing will be proved out of Scripture even for those things which are contayned in it Neither will anie thing remayne certaine except a generall vnprofitable impracticable Notion that the Apostles taught and the Scripture contaynes some things revealed by God without knowing what they are in particular which would be nothing to the purpose and therfore as good as nothing 8. But yet dato non concesso That the Apostles and the Church are to be believed only in such particular Points as are proved by Miracles c we say that innumerable Miracles haue bene wrought in consirmation of those particular Points wherin we disagree from Protestants as may be seene in Brierly Tract 2. Chap 3 Sect 7. subdiv 1. For example of Prayer to Saints out of S. Austine Civit L. 22. C. 8. Worship of Reliques out of S. Gregory Nazian S. Austine S. Hierom S. Basil Greg Turonen Theodoret the Image of Christ Reall presence Sacrifice of Christs Body Purgatory Prayer for the Dead The great vertue of the signe of the Crosse Holy water Lights in the Church Reservation of the Sacrament Holy Chrisme Adoration of the crosse Confession of sins to a Priest and extreme Vnction which miracles Brierly proves by irrefragable Testimonyes of most creditable Authors and Holy Fathers wherof if any Protestant doubt he can do no lesse for the salvation of his soule than examine the matter either by the 〈◊〉 of this Authour or of other Catholique Writers and not only by 〈…〉 clamours and calumnyes of Protestant Preachers in their Ser 〈…〉 Writers in their Bookes And let him take with him for his 〈…〉 thefe considerations 1. That these Miracles were wrought and testifyed before any Protestant appeared in the world And therfore could not be fayned or recorded vpon any particular designe against them and their Heresyes 2. That even Protestants acknowledg the Truths of such Miracles Whitaker cont Duraeum Lib 10. sayth I do not thinke those Miracles vaine which are reported to haue bene done at the monuments of Saints as also Fox and Godwin acknowledg Miracles wrought by S. Austine the Monke sent by S. Gregory Pope to convert England through Gods hand as may be seene in Brierly Tract 1. Sect 5. and yet it is confessed by Protestants and is evident of itself that he converted vs to the Roman Faith But not to be long I referr the Reader to Brierly in the Index of whose Booke in the word Miracles he will find full satisfaction if he examine his allegations that in every Age since our Saviour Christ there haue bene wrought many ad great Miracles both by the Professors of the Roman Faith and expressly in confirmation of it This I say and avouch for a certaine truth that whatsoever Heretikes can object against Miracles wrought by Professors of our Religion and in proofe if it may be in the same manner objected against the Miracles of our B. Saviour and his Apostles and that they cannot impugne vs but joyntly they must vndermine all Christianity 9. To these two considerations let this Third be added that it is evidently delivered in Scripture Miracles to be certaine Proofes of the true Faith and Religion as being appointed by God for that end Exod 4.1 when Moyses sayd They will not belieue me nor heare my voice God gaue him the Gift of Miracles that they might belieue God had spoken to him 3. Reg 17. Vers 24. That woman whose sonne Elias had raised to life sayd Now in this I haue knowen that thou art a man of God and the word of our Lord in thy mouth is true Christ Matt 11. V. 3.4.5 being asked whether he was the Messias proved himself to be such by the Miracle which he wrought The blind see the lame walke the lepers are made cleane the deafe heare the dead rise againe Which words signify that Miracles are not only effectuall but necessary to proue the truth of a Doctrine contrary to what was receyved before Yea Joan 5.36 Miracles are called a greater testimony thē John Marc vlt they preached every where our Lord working withall and consirming the Word with signes that followed 2. Cor 12. V. 12. The signes of my Apostleship haue beene done vpon you in all patience and wonders and mighty deeds Hebr. 2.4 God withall testifying by signes and wonders and divers Miracles But why do I vrge this Point You clearly confess it Pag 144. N. 31. in these words If you be so infallible as the Apostles were shew it as the Apostles did They went forth saith S. Marke and preached every where the Lord working with them and confirming their words with signes following It is impossible that God should lye and that the Eternall Truth should set his hand and seale to the confirmation of a falshood or of such doctrine as is partly true and partly false The Aposiles doctrine was thus confirmed therfore it was intirely true and in no part either false or vncertaine 10. Now put these Truths togeather Many and great Miracles haue bene wrought by professours of the Roman Religion and particularly in confirmation of it Miracles are vndoubted Proofes of the true Church Faith and Religion What will follow but that the Roman Faith and Religion is entirely true and in no part either false or vncertaine Wherfore men desirous of their Eternall salvation may say confidently with B. S. Austine Lib de Vtilit credendi Cap 17. Dubitabimus nos ejus Ecclesiae c. Shall we doubt to rest in the bosome of that Church which with the acknowledgment of mankind hath obtained the height of Authority from the Apostolique Sea by Succession of Bishops Heretikes in vaine barking about her and being condemned partly by the judgment of the people partly by the gravity of Councells partly by the Majesty of Miracles To which not to giue the first place is indeed either most great impiety or precipitous arrogancie 11. Behold the Notes of the true Church Miracles Succession of Bishops Which perpetuall Succession of Bishops is the Ground and Foundation of the Amplitude Propagation Splendor and Glory of the Church promised by God ād foretold by the Prophets as may be seene Isaiae Chap 60. Vers 22. Chap 2. Vers 2. Chap 49. Vers 23. Chap. 54. Vers 2.3 Psalm 2.8 Dan 2.44 Which Promises some learned Protestants finding evidently not to be fulfilled in the Protestant Church which before Luther was none and being resolved not to embrace the Catholique Church wherin alone those Promises are clearly fulfilled fell
is the only thing in question Thus hee 33. To which I answer That the state of the Question being whether both Catholiks and Protestants be capable of salvation in their severall Faiths and Religions and the same reason is of all who differ in any matters of Faith though of themselves they be not Fundamentall and Protestants judging vs to be very vncharitable in saying they cannot be saved seing they hold the Creed and all Fundamentall Points as they conceaue and therfore if they be in errour it is only in Points not Fundamentall Charity Maintayned said that Potter never answered to this Point clearly directly and constantly as he ought to haue done that is he never declared whether different beliefe in Points not Fundamentall doth so destroy the vnity of Faith in persons so disagreeing as that they cannot be sayd to be of one Faith for the substance or of one Church and Religion in such manner as one might absolutly say Catholiks and Protestants are of one Faith and Church and capable of salvation in their severall beliefs and professions of Faith This Potter never did nor in policy durst doe because saith Charity Maintayned Part 1. Pag 3. He was loath to affirme plainly that generally both Catholiks and Protestants may be saved And yet seeing it to be most evident that Protestants cannot pretend to haue any true Church before Luther except the Roman and such as agreed with her and consequently that they cannot hope for salvation if they deny it to vs he thought best to avoid this difficulty by confusion of Language and to fill vp his Booke with Points which make nothing to the purpose Besides if once he grant that difference of belief though it be only in Points not Fundamentall destroy the true Faith Church and Religion he could not pretend that Protestants disagreeing among themselves could be all of one Church or substance of Faith and Religion and capable of salvation What remedy then but that he must contradict himselfe accordingly as he might be pressed by diversity or contrariety of difficultyes and so by vttering contradictions say Nothing at all to the maine question or els speak equally in favour of both Contradictories For what implyes contradiction implyes only nothing But let vs go forward and add to what we haue already cited out of Chillingworth his other words Pag 21. If any Protestant or Papist be betrayed into or kept in any errour by any sin of his will as it is to be feared many millions are such errour is as the cause of it sinfull and damnable The same doctrine he pretends to deliver through his whole Booke wherby it seemes that both he and Potter hold in words that to belieue any errour against Divine Revelation sufficiently propounded is sinfull and damnable and destroyes the fundation of Faith being as Chilling saith P. 11. no less than to giue God the ly 34. Nevertheless it is evident that in reality and deeds yea and in express profession they and other Protestants do and must maintayne the contrary vnless they haue a mynd to contradict themselves in Points of heigh concernment for their cause This I proue by these considerations 35. First The World knowes that nothing is more frequent in the mouth of Protestants than that they all hold the same substance of Faith and retaine the essence of a true Church because they agree in Fundamentall Points which they are wont to proue because they belieue the Apostles Creed and the foure first Generall Councells and Potter in particular Pag 216. teaches that the Creed of the Apostles as it was further opened and explained in some parts by occasion of emerfent Heresyes in the other Catholike Creeds of Nice Constantinople Ephepsus Chacedon and Aranesius containes all fundamentall truths and from thence inferrs Pag 232. that Protestants agree in fundamentalls and Pag 241. he saith the Creed is the perfect Summary of those fundamentall truths wherin consists the vnity of Faith and of the Catholique Church But these assertions were very false and impertinent if it be damnable and even Fundamentall against Faith to belieue any errour repugnant to Divine Revelation though in a Point not Fundamentall of itself For what imports it to belieue all the Articles of the Creed if in the meane tyme they deny some other truths revealed by God and sufficiently proposed for such for example innumerable Texts of Scripture containing no matters Fundamentall of themselves As certainly some Protestants must doe seing two contradictoryes cannot be true Or why do they deceaue men in telling them that by believing the Creed they cannot erre Fundamentally seing they hold that there are millions of truths which to deny were a damnable and Fundamentall errour If therfore they will keepe this ground that they haue the same substance of Faith and hope of salvation because they agree in Fundamentall Points they must affirme that disagreement or errour in a Point not Fundamentall doth not destroy the substance of Faith or depriue men of hope to be saved nor is a Fundamentall errour as Potter and Chilling somtyme say it is as we haue seene and Chilling saith in particular Pag 131. N. 9. If Protestants differ in Points Fundamentall then they are not members of the same Church one with another no more than with you he meanes vs Catholikes Wherfore vpon the matter if to deny Points of themselves not Fundamentall sufficiently propounded be a Fundamentall errour de facto Protestants are not members of the same Church one with another according to Chillingworths owne words If it be not a Fundamentall errour the contrary Truth is not necessary and so one may be saved though he deny some revealed Truth sufficiently propounded which is the thing I intended to proue 36. Secondly Learned Protestants are very desirous and even ambitious that the world should belieue them to be of the same Church with the Roman and this meerly vpon necessity and for their owne sake least otherwise they should be necessitated to affirme that before Luther there was no true Church vpon earth but that he and his followers created a new Church out of nothing from which Potter vtterly disclaimes Pag 59. saying Protestants never intended to erect a new Church but to purge the old the Reformation did not change the substance of Religion And Pag 63. The most necessary and Fundamentall truths which constitute a Church are on both sides vnquestioned And for that reason learned Protestants yield them the name and substance of a Christian Church though extremely defiled with horrible errorurs and corruptions And adds that The very Anabaptists grant it But how can they be of the same Church for substance with vs who they say are defided with horrible errours and corruptions if every errour in any Point of Faith though not Fundamentall destroyes the substance o Faith and Church and possibility of salvation If then they will speake with consequence to themselves they must affirme that errours in Points not Fundamentall
Protestants teach that the Roman Church doth not erre in any Point Fundamentall or necessary to salvation and this you say diverse tymes is not true 147. Answer I will not say as you Pag. 76. N. 63. speake to Charity Maintayned I feare you will repent the tyme that ever you vrged this Point against Charity Maintayned but contrarily I hope that the Reader if he be not a Protestant will find just occasion to prayse God that the Answer to this your Objection will demonstrate to him in how safe a way we Catholikes are even by the confession of our Adversaryes and how much it imports him to place his soule in the like safety 148. I haue already vpon severall occasions mentioned some passages wherin you and Dr. Potter confesse that the Roman Church wants nothing necessary to salvation Now I will doe it more at large Potter Pag 63. saith The most necessary and fundamentall Truths which constitute a Church are on both sides vnquestioned And for that reason learned Protestants yield them Romanisis as he calls vs the name and substance of a Christian Church Where we see that he saith in generall learued Protestants yield them c. In proofe wherof he cites in his margent Junius D. Reinolds and sayes See the juagment of many other writers in the Advertisement annexed to the Old Religion by the Reverend Bishop of Exeter and adds The very Anabaotists grant it Fr. Ichnson in his Christian plea Pa 123. So that with this one Testimony of Potter we haue many other even of our greatest Adversaryes And I desire the reader to obserue well that here P 62 he saith To those twelue Articles which the Apostles in their Creed esteâ—med a sufficient Summary of wholsome Doctrine they Catholikes haue added many more Such are for instance their Apocryphall Scriptures and vnwrâ—ten dogmaticall Traditions their Transsubstantiation and dry Communion their Purgatory Invocation of Saints Worship of Images Latine service trafficke of Indulgences and shortly the other new Doctrines and Decrees canonized in their late Synode of Trent Vpon these and the like new Articles is all the contestation between the Romanists and Protestants And then he adds the words which we haue cited The most necessary and Fundamentall truths which constatute a Church are on both sides vnquestioned and for that c. Where we see he grants we belieue the twelue Articles of the Apostles Creed which he teaches at large to containe all Fundamentall Points of Faith and that we hold all the most necessary and Fundamentall truths which constitute a Church Therfore those Points of our Doctrine which he giues for instance are no Fundementall errours nor the contrary Articles necessary and Fundamentall truths and yet he names all the Chiefest Points controverted betweene vs and Protestants even transubstantiation Communion in one kind and Latine Service which are the things they are wont most to oppose yea he comprises all the Doctrines and Decrees of the Councell of Trent Therfore we are free from fundamentall errours by the confession of our Adversaryes Pag 59. The Protestants never intended to erect a new Church but to purge the Old The Reformation did not change the substance of Religion but only clensed it from corrupt and impure qualityes If the Protestants erected not a new Church then ours is still the Old Church and if it were only clensed from corrupt qualityes without change of the substance the substance must be still the same that it was and that which was must be the same with that which is Pag 61. The things which the Protestants belieue on their part and wherin they judge the life and substance of Religion to be comprized are most if not all of them so evidently and indisputably true that their Adversaryes themselves do avow and receaue them as well as they Therfore we Catolikes haue the life and substance of Religion Pag 60. In the prime grounds of Principles or Christian Religion wee haue not forsaken the Church of Rome Therfore you grant that we haue the prime grounds or Fundamentall Articles of Religion Pag 11. For those Catholique Verityes which she the Roman Church retaines we yield her a member of the Catholike though one of the most vnsound and corrupt members In this sense the Romanists may be called Catholikes Behold we are members of the Catholike Church which could not be if we erred in any one fundamentall Point By the way If the Romanists may be called Catholikes why may not the Roman Church be termed Catholique And yet this is that Argument which Protestants are wont to vrge against vs and Potter in particular in this very place not considering that he impugnes himselfe while he speakes against vs nor distinguishing between vniversall as Logicians speake of it which signifyes one common thing abstracting or abstracted from all particulars and Catholique as it is taken in true Divinity for the Church spred over the whole world that is all Churches which agree with the Roman and vpon that vaine conceit telling his vnlearned Reader that vniversall and particular are termes repugnant and consequently one cannot be affirmed of the other that is say I Catholique cannot be affirmed of Dr. Potter nor Dr. Potter sayd to be a Catholike because a particular cannot be sayd to be vniversall or an vniversall Pag 75. To depart from the Church of RomeÌ„ in some doctrines and practises there might be just and necessary cause though the Church of Rome wanted nothing necessary to salvation P 70. They the Roman Doctours confess that setting aside all matters controverted the maine positiue truths wherin all agree are abundantly sufficient to every good Christian both for his knowledge and for his practise teaching him what to belieue and how to liue so as he may be saved His saying that the Roman Doctours confesse that setting a side all matters controverted c. is very vntrue it being manifest that Catholikes belieue Protestants to erre damnably both in matters of Faith and practise yet his words convince ad hominem that we haue all that is necessary yea and abundantly sufficient both for knowledg and practise for vs to be saved And then he discoursing of the Doctrines wherin we differ from Protestants saith Pag 74. If the mistaker will suppose his Roman Church and Religion purged from these and the like confessed excesses and noveltyes he shall find in that which remaines little difference of importance betweene vs. Therfore de facto we belieue all things of importance which Protestants belieue After these words without any interruption he goes forward and sayes Pag 75. But by this discourse the Mistaker happily may belieue his cause to be advantaged and may reply If Rome want nothing essentiall to Religion or to a Church how then can the Reformers justify their separation from that Church or free themselves from damnable Schisme Doth not this discourse proue and the Objection which he rayses from it suppose that we want nothing essentiall to Religion Otherwise
this Objection which he makes to himselfe were clearly impertinent and foolish if he could haue dispatched all by saying we erre in essentiall points which had been an evident and more than a just cause to justify their separation which yet appeares further by his Answer to the sayd Objection That to depart from a particular Church and namely from the Church of Rome in some Doctrines and practises there might be just and necessary cause though the Church of Rome wanted nothing neâ—essary to salvation And afterward in the next P. 76. speaking of the Church of Rome he saith expressly Her Communion we forsake not no more than the Body of Christ wherof we acknowledg the Church of Rome to be a member though corrupted And this cleares vs from the imputation of Schisme whose property it is to cut of from the Body of Christ and the hope of salvation the Church from which it separates But if she did erre in any one Fundamentall point by that very errour she would cease to be a member of the Body of Christ and should be cut of from the hope of salvation therfore she doth not erre in any Fundamentall Point P. 83. we were never disioyned from her the Church of Rome in those maine essentiall truths which giue her the name and essence of a Church You must then say that she erres not in any Fundamentall Point For the essence of a Church cannot consist with any such errour And that it may appeare how desirous he is that it should be believed Catholiks and Protestants not to differ in the essence of Religion he adds these words immediatly after those which we haue last cited wherof if the Mistaker doubt he may be better informed by some late Roman Catholique Writers One of France who hath purposely in a large Treatise proved as be believes the Hugonots and Catholikes of that Kingdome to be all of the same Church and Religion because of the truths agreed vpon by both And another of our Country as it is sayd who hath lately published a large Catalogue of learned Authors both Papists and Protestants who are all of the same mynd Thus you see he ransacks all kind of proofes to shew that Catholikes and Protestants differ not in the substance and essence of Faith and to that end cites for Catholike Writers those two who can be no Catholiks as Charity Maintayned Part 1. Chap 3. Pag 104. shewes the former in particular to be a plaine Heretike or rather Atheist Lucian-like jeasting at all Religion Pag 78. he saith we hope and thinke very well of all those Holy and devout soules which in former Ages lived and dyed in the Church of Rome Nay our Charity reaches further to all those at this day who in simplicity of heart belieue the Roman Religion and professe it To these words of the Doctour if we subsume But it were impossble that any can be saved even by Ignorance or any simplicity of heart if he erre in a Fundamentall point because as by every such errour a Church ceases to be a Church so every particular person ceases to be a member of the true Churchs the Conclusion will be that we do not erre in any Fundamentall point Nay Pag 79. he saith further we belieue it the Roman Religion safe that is by Gods great Mercy not damnable to some such as belieue what they professe But we belieue it not safe but very dangerous if not certainly damnable to such as profess it when they belieue or if their hearts were vpright and not perversely obstinate might belieue the contrary Behold we are not only in a possibility to be saved we are even safe vpon condition we belieue that Faith to be true which we professe and for which we haue suffered so long so great and so many losses in all kinds which if we did vndergoe for extetnall profession of that Faith which we do not inwardly belieue to betrue we should deserue rather to be begged for fooles than persecuted for our Religion In the meane tyme every Catholike hath this comfort that he is safe even by the confession of an Adversary if he be not a foolish dissembler which would be cause of damnation in a Protestant or any other Even the profession of a truth believed to be false is a sin But I returne to say it were impossible for any Roman Catholike to be safe vpon what condition soever if we erre in any one Fundamentall Article of Faith Here I must briefly note that wheras Dr. Potter in the words now alledged saith It is not damnable to some and then to declare who those some are adds such as belieue what they profess Chillingworth Pag 404. N. 29. leaves out the distinction or comma placed betweene some and such and puts it after damnable Thus Not damnable to some such as beleue what they professe which words may signify that it is not safe to all such as belieue what they professe which may much alter the sense of Potters words as the Reader will perceiue by comparing them 149. Now Sir who will not wonder at your so often declaiming against Charity Maintayned for saying Dr Potter taught that the Roman Church doth not erre in Fundamentall Points But what if your selfe say the same It is cleare you do so For wheras Charity Maintayned Part 1. Pag 15. N. 13. saith Since Dr. Potter will be forced to grant that there can be assigned no visible true Church of Christ distinct from the Church of Rome and such Churches as greed with her when Luther first appeared I desire him to declare whether it do not follow that she hath not erred Fundamentally because every such errour destroyes the nature and being of a Church and so our Saviour Christ should haue had no visible Church on Earth To these words which you thought fit to set downe very imperfectly you answer Pag 16 N. 20. In this manner I say in our sense of the word Fundamentall it does follow For if it be true that there was then no Church distinct from the Roman then it must be either because there was no Church at all which we deny or because the Roman Church was the whole Church which we also deny Or because she was a part of the whole which we grant And if she were a true Part of the Church then she retained those truths which were simply necessary to salvation and held no errours which were inevitably and vnpardonably destructiue of it For this is precisely necessary to constitute any man or any Church a member of the Church Catholique In our sense therfore of the word Fuudamentall I hope she erred not Fundamentally But in your sense of the word I feare she did That is she held some thing to be Divine Revelation which was not some thing not to be which was You haue spoken so clearly and fully in favour of the Roman Church and not only affirmed but proved that she did not erre in any Fundamentall
our freeing you from damnable Heresy and yielding you salvation neither Dr. Potter nor any other Protestant is guilty of it Seing you say that By the confession of both sides we agree in much more than is simply and indispensably necessary to salvation If we belieue much more then is necessary to salvation by what Logicke will you deduce that we belieue not as much as is necessary 150. These so many and so cleare words of Dr. Potter and yourselfe may justly make any man wonder with what pretence of truth or modesty you could say Pag 280. N. 95. As for your pretence that your errours are confessed not to be Fundamentall it is an affected mistake as I haue often told you And Pag 308. 108. As for your obtruding vpon vs that we belieue the Points of difference not Fundamentall or necessary you haue been often told it is a calumny The oftner the worse it being a saying voyd of all truth and a shamefull calumny in you 151. To these testimonyes of Potter and Chillingworth many other might be allelged out of other Protestants as we haue seene diverse other alledged by Potter Dr. Lawd Pag 299 saith I do aknowledge a Possibility of salvation in the Roman Church But so as that which I grant to Romanists is not as they are Romanists but as they are Christians that is as they beleeve the Creed and hold the foundation Christ himselfe Behold not only a possibility of saluation but also the reason therof because we belieue the Creed c which is the very reason for which Protestants hold that they themselues may be saved though they differ in many Points from one another This I say is the reason of Dr. Lawd which other Protestants must approue though in true Divinity it be of no force at all for though one belieue the Creed and hold the foundation Christ himselfe that is that he is God and Saviour of the world yet if he deny any point evidently delivered in Scripture or otherwise sufficiently propounded as revealed by God he cannot be saved even according to Protestants who therfore doe in this as in many other things speake inconsequently and contradict themselves Pag 376. he sayth The Religion of the Protestants and the Romanists Religion is the same nor do the Church of Rome and the Protestants set vp a different Religion for the Christian ReligioÌ„ is the same to both but they differ in the same Religion Therfore say I we hold no Fundamentall errours wherin whosoever differ cannot be of the same but must be of a different Religion And Pag. 129. The Protestants haue not left the Church of Rome in her Essence not in the things which constitute a Church And P 282. he saith The possibility of salvation in the Roman Church I thinke cannot be denyed aÌ„d in proofe hereof P 281. he alledges Luther Field Jos Hall Geo Abbot Hooker Mornaeus Prideaux Calvin And Dr. Jer Taylor in his Liberty of Prophecying Pag 251. Sect â—0 teaches that we keepe the foundation and belieue many more truths than can be proved to be of simple and originall necessity to Salvation And therfore all the wisest Personages of the adverse party allowed to them possibility of Salvation whilst their errours are not faults of their will but weaknesses and deceptions of the vnderstanding which as I sayd may easily be believed of vs Catholikes who suffer so much for our Religion so that there is nothing in the foundation of Faith that can reasonably hinder them to be permitted The foundation of Faith stands secure enough for all their vaine and vnhandsome superstructures And in particular he shewes that Prayer for the dead and the Doctrine of transubstantiation are not Fundamentall errours and also saieth these two be in stead of the rest Yea he affirmes Pag 258. that there is implied as great difficulty in the Mystery of the B. Trinity as in the Doctrine of Transubstantiation and shewes that we are not in any danger of sinning by idolatry in adoring the Sacrament For further satisfaction in this matter the Reader will find the words of learned Protestants in Brierley Tract 2. Sect 14. As That we are of the Church That we are of the family of Iesus Christ a part of the house of God That it was evill done of them who first vrged a separation That we are the Church of God That the Catholike and Reformed make not two but one same Religion agreeing in all principall points of Religion necessary for Salvation That Catholikes and Hugonots are of one Faith and Religion That they are Domestikâ— of Faith and branches of the same viâ—e And Tract 1. Sect 6. Subdiv 1. That Those who live and dy in the Church of Rome may notwithstanding be saved and they are charged by very learned Protestants of ignorance and absurdity who are of the contrary opinion 132. I hope now it appeares that even in the judgment of learned Protestants Catholikes do not erre in points Fundamentall or necessary to salvation and therfore that Luther could not be excused from Schisme in dividing himselfe from all Churches for matters which do not exclude vs from eternall happynesse especially seing they who forsooke vs maintayne errours at least not Fundamentall as Potter Pag 67. plainly confesses and appeares manifestly by the disagreement of Protestants amongst themselves and the agreement of diverse of them with vs even in diverse of those points in which Luther pretended the Church to be corrupted as appeares by what we haue demonstrated heretofore Yet to leaue nothing vntouched I will goe forward not so much because indeed there remaines any Objection of moment against vs as to take away all pretence of cavills as also to take occasion of delivering some Considerations of importance against our Adversaryes 153. Object 15. Although the errours of the Roman Church be not fundamentall in themselves yet they are against Gods Revelation and Command not to deny any least truth testifyed by that supreme Uerity and consequently such errours are damnable and for which the Roman Church might be forsaken 154. Answer First This Objection is not only against the whole Church of Christ which you pretend to haue been corrupted with such errours but also against the Reformers therof seing of Protestants holding contradictoryes some de facto must be in errour wherof Grotius Rivetiani Apologetici Discu P 15. saith Protestantium Confessiones in multis rebus ita dissident vt conciliari nullo modo possint Uidentur autem Genevenses cum Harmoniam Confessionum edidere ita credidisse Harmoniam esse dissidentes Confessiones in vnum Uolumen compingere The Confessions of Faith of Protestants do so disagree that it is impossible they can be reconciled It seemes that they of Geneua when they sett forth the Harmonie of Confessions were of opinion that the Harmonie or agreement of Confessions did consist only in bindeing vp in one Uolume disagreeing Confessions Nay Protestants do further teach that it cannot be otherwise
may be saved not by a generall but by a particular contrition not of sins vnknowne but knowne not remaining a formall Protestant but being a reall Catholike having retracted the former malice of his sin and believing in desire all that the Catholike Church believes and so he is a Protestant neither in act seing he doubts of the Protestant Religion nor in voto or desire which is to be a professed member of the true Church and to imbrace the truth and forsake all Errour as in this present Question we expressly speake of the errours of Protestants and enquire whether they can be saved with such errours as likewise our supposition for the present is that the Roman is the true Church and so the Uotum or desire of such a penitent is to forsake the Doctrine of Protestants and to embrace the Religion of the Roman Church But then if such a one survine and come to haue tyme sufficient for seeking and finding out the truth and neglect to doe it he waxeth recidivous and falls into a new sin and his eâ—â—ours grow againe to be sinfull by reason of their new sinfull cause 23. Your example that poyson will not poyson him that receives with it a more powerfull Antidote is either de subjecto non supponente as if the poyson of sin could stand with the Antidote of Contrition or implyes a manifest falshood and contradiction if you suppose that contrition can destroy that sin which one is committing Naturall or corporall poyson may stand with an Antidote but sin the poyson of the soule cannot stand with Contrition and so caÌ„ helpe no more thaÌ„ an Antidote not receyved can hinder the operation of poyson aÌ„d contrition cannot be receyved in his soule who continues the act or affection to a deadly sin And so your example turnes against yourself and this Answer proves to be a more powerfull Antidote than the poyson of your objection which therfore I hope will not poyson any that receives with it the Antidote 23. Thirdly I answer by denying absolutely the case which was proposed that he who hath sinfull errours at the houre of his death can haue true Contrition without actuall direliction of them My reason is because Contrition being a most singular Gift of the Holy Ghost as I proved in the Introduction and including the perfect loue of God is an infallible Disposition to Justifying Grace as therfore God in his holy Providence hath decreed that after baptisme in the ordinary course or de lege ordinaria none shall be saved out of his Uisible Church so he gives not his effectuall Grace to exercise an Act of Contrition in the Will before he endue him with true Faith in the vnderstanding that as his errours were repugnant to Faith so his Repentance and retractation may rectify them by the contrary Truths of Faith For this cause the Apostle after he had sayd God will haue all men saved which words signify the End adds and to come to the knowledge of truth as the Meanes to such an End And this being the ordinary course in vaine is it to dispute what God may doe de potentia absoluta by his absolute Omnipotency or whether there be any physicall or Metaphysicall repugnance between Contrition and Errours per se loquendo damnable since those matters wholy depend on Gods free will and holy pleasure which we cannot know by Logicall humane demonstrations but only by Revelation wherby God hath declared in generall that for Christians there is no salvation without professing the Faith of his Uisible Church and for vs to put exceptions to that generall Rule can haue no other effect than to make men negligent in seeking the Truth in tyme vpon hope that they may be saved with Errours against Faith at the houre of their death when indeed it will proue too late Neither can it be objected that at the houre of death it is not possible to examine particular Controversyes and none can be obliged to an impossible thing For the answer is easily given out of what we haue already sayd First that this ought not so seeme strang to you whose kind of Repentance is impossible at that houre of death as I haue often sayd and so we may apply against you your owne words Pag 390. N. 7. They that confess their sins and forsake them shall find mercy though they confesse them to God only and not to men They that confess them both to God and men if they do not effectually and in tyme forsake them shall not find mercy Now by your doctrine men cannot forsake their sins in tyme who haue not tyme for rooting out all vicious habits and therfore shall not find mercy But by the way what evidenct Scripture haue you that they shall find it who confess their sins only to God seing some Lutherans and other Protestants hold and other confess that it was the Doctrine of ancient holy Fathers that private confession of sins is commanded by God and we haue heard Kemnitius teaching that even Contrition without absolution is not sufficient for pardon of sins either in act or in desire and your resolute speech to the contrary is an affirmation without any proofe Neither can Contrition be sufficient vnless it imply a firme purpose to performe all that God hath commanded wherof Confession of deadly sins is one Secondly I answer that as God is supposed at that tyme to infuse perfect contrition and change the will so also you should suppose that he rectifyes the vnderstanding and the same meanes which he vseth for the one he may vse for the other whether he doe it immediatly by himselfe or by the ministery and helpe of some second cause as a catechist or instructour or good bookes to stirre vp the species and then God may giue his grace to belieue and it would be incomparably more strang that God should giue Repentance to Christians remayning out of his Visible Church for matter of Faith than to cleare their Errours supposing he will giue them Repentance though indeed in our case there can be no true Repentance vnless all sinfull errours be rectifyed 24. That which you alledge out of the Prophet David aboccultis meis munda me cannot signify that sin can be committed without some knowledge as even Socinians confess but only that sins committed by culpable ignorance are not wont to moue vs so much to detestation and sorrow as those which are committed with full knowledg and therfore those hidden sins require a more particular light and Grace of God to present them to our soules so clearly and effectually as we may be perfectly sorrowfull for them in particular and not be deceyved with such a generall ineffectuall sorrow as you obtrude without dereliction of the sins of which men pretend to repent 25. And now I hope it appeares vpon examination of your particular errours concerning Repentance that you make it either insufficient by your pretended necessity of extirpating all vicious habits
Protestants vpon one of these two accounts or titles are in state of damnation and is not this to contradict the title of your Book The Protestant Religion a safe way to salvation But I could not but wonder how you could induce yourself to say so absolutely To proue Protestants in state of sinne while they remaine separate from the Roman Church there is not one word or syllable in that N. 12. seing if they forsake those opinions eo ipso they come to agree therein with the Roman Church and if they persist in their errours and for that cause be forsaken by their Brethren these forsakers in that respect come to agree with the Roman Church and divide themselves from those other Protestants Besides if once it be granted that Protestants are obliged to forsake one an other no man to whom the salvation of his soule is deare will not spedily returne to that Church from which all of them departed whatsoever you may speculate or fancy to the contrary As for your instance that Catholiques differ about the Doctrine of Perdetermination or absolute Election it is not to the purpose seing all Catholiques profess to hold them no otherwise than as they may consist with freewill which those Protestants of whom Ch. Ma. speakes deny and therefore his Inferences are of force against Protestants not against Catholiques There is no doubt but that the consequences of mens opinions may and will be imputed to them when they might see them if it were not for some fault of their owne as even yourself grant in this place 4. To your N. 5. so it should be but is omitted It is vanity in you to say It was needless to proue that due order is to be obserued in any thing much more in Charity seing all Divines treating of Charity propose this Question and in particular S. Thomas 2.2 Q. 26. Art 1. asks expresly Vtrum in charitate sit ordo and for proofe thereof he alledges the same Text Cant 1. which Ch Ma alledges Ordinavit in me Charitatem and yet you with your wonted confidence say It if stood in need of proofe I feare this place of the Canticles would be no enforcing demonstration of it But Cornelius à Lapide from this place proves literally and learnedly that in Charity there is an order to be kept 5. 2. You say to Ch Ma The reason alleaged by you why we ought to loue one object more then an other because one thing participates the Divine Goodness more then an other is phantasticall and repugnant to what you say presently after For by this Rule no man should loue himself more then all the world Vnless he were first vainely perswaded that he doth more participate the Divine Goodness then all the world But the true reason why one thing ought to be loved more then an other is because one thing is better then another or because it is better to vs or because God Commands vs to doe so or because God himself does so and we are to conforme our affections to the will of God 6. Answer It can be nothing but excess of pride in you to call the reason of Ch Ma phantasticall it being nothing different from that which S. Thomas in the place alledged assignes and all his Commentators follow and which is strang you yourself giue the same as we shall see instantly Your errour arises from ignorance of a double Order in Charity Physicall and morall The first is taken from the perfection of the object in itself the second is considered in order to the obligation which God hath imposed vpon vs to loue things in that manner and order as he hath appointed and therfore although we cannot loue ourselves more than all the world by the Physicall order of which we spoke as if we did conceiue ourselves to be of our owne nature more perfect than all Creatures yet we are obliged by the morall order or obligation which God hath imposed to prefer the spirituall good of our owne soule before the whole world and so your objection appeares very vaine and must be answered by yourself who giue for a reason because one thing is better than an other and I beseech you is it not all one to say One thing is better than an other and one thing participates of God more than an other And then as I sayd you must answer your owne Objection that by this rule no man should loue himself more than all the world vnles he were first vainely perswaded that he doth more participate the Divine Goodness then all the world In your other reason because one thing is better to vs then an other you forget that we speake of Charity not of Hope which respects a thing as good to vs and therefore in this reason you pass from one vertue to an other and giue a reason nothing to our present purpose In your last reason because God himself does so and we are to conforme our affections to the will of God you either speak non-sense or els you say the same which Ch Ma saied and which you were pleased to call a phantasticall reason For God loves things as they are in themselves or as one thing is better then an other which was your other reason though indeed not distinct from this which yet you pretend to be different or as one thing doth more participate of the Divine Goodness or perfection which though you call phantasticall yet it is the same with your owne first reason and with this last and therefore to conforme our affections to the will of God is no other reason than that which you call phantasticall To these absurdities your pride brings you 7. 3. You say It is not true that all Objects which we belieue doe equally participate the Divine Testimony or Revelation But you ought to be ashamed to conceale the immediatly following words of Ch Ma which declare the matter most evidently For sayth he For Divine Testimony or Revelation we belieue a like all things propounded for such For it is as impossible for God to speak an vntruth in a small as in a great matter Is not this true Is not the contrary plaine blasphemy 8. In your N. 6. you say 1. It is not true that we are to wish or desire to God a nature infinite independent immense for it is impossible I should desire to any person that which he hath already if I know he hath it 9. Answer Ch Ma speakes in the phrase of the holy Scripture and spirituall men who to shew the ardent loue they beare to God and deepe complacence they take in the Perfections and Attributes which they know he enjoyes declare their affection by wishing them to him as hee in the Panegyrick could say to his Emperour etiam praesens desideraris Desire in our soule is like to hunger and thrist in our body and yet we reade Eccl. 24.29 Qui edunt me adhuc esurient qui bibunt me adhuc sitient S.
Truth and will be such in despight of Heresie Sophistrie and witt One favour I must acknowledg to receyue from Mr Chillingworth though I owe him no thanks for it that his Contradictions are so frequent as they alone are enough to confute himself Whereof I giue no examples heere in regard they perpetually offer themselves through his whole Book as the Reader will perceyue and if I be not deceived not without wonder that a man so cryed vp by some other should so patently be decryed by himself not vpon any sense of humility but by the fate as I may saie of falshood which cannot be long constant to itself (a) Anastasius Synaita Cap 15. odegou Sunt qui nihil peusi habent etiamsi inconsequenter loquantur aut in praecipitia se ingerant dummodo Adversatijs rectè sentientibus creent molestiam And this must needs appeare credible if we consider that those Books which were first published against him agree in the same judgment of his Contradictions though I am verie certaine they could not borrow their censure from one an other 8. As for the bulk of my Book I must acknowledg that it might haue bene comprised in a lesser compass if I could in wisdom haue measured the conceypts of men by the matter which certainly did oftentimes not require or deserue any Answer But we are debters sapientibus insipientibus to all sorts of persons and many will be apt to Judge and proclaime all that to be vnanswerable which is not actually answered to their hand Nevertheless vpon exact account though Mr Chillingworth answer one Parte only of Charity Maintayned yet you see it is no small volume but is more than three times greater than the Part answered And so one half of Charity Maintayned temaines till this day vnanswered 9. I meddle not with Mr Chillingworths Answer by waie of Preface to a litle Work intituled A Direction to N. N. because presently vpon the publishing of his Book that Preface of his was in such manner confuted by a wittie erudite and solid Book with this Title The judgment of an Vniversity-man concerning Mr William Chillingworth his late Pamphlet in Answer to Charity Maintayned that He was much troubled thereat but yet thought fit to disgest his vexation by silence 10. But the maine Point which I must propose heere and which I confide everie indifferent Reader will finde to be clearely evinced even out of Mr Chillingworths owne words is this That whereas he gives this Title to his Book The Religion of Protestants a safe way to salvation he might and ought in stead thereof either to haue saied The Religion of Protestants not a safe way to salvation Or The Religion of Roman Catholiques a safe way to salvation Or finally Christian Religion not a safe way to salvation For 11. First He confesses that some Protestants must be in errours and proves it because they hold Propositions contradictorie one to an other and besides he teaches that millions of them erre damnably in these words Pag 21. If any Protestant or Papist be betraied into or kept in any Errour by any sinne of his will as it is to be feared many millions are such Errour is as the cause of it sinfull and damnable Yet not exclusiue of all hope of salvation but perdonable if discovered vpon a particular explicite repentance if not discovered vpon a generall and implicite repentance for all sinnes known and vnknowne To which words if we add what he saieth Pag 16. N. 21. The very saying they were pardonable implies they needed pardon and therefore in themselves were damnable The Conclusion will be that the errours of Protestants are damnable in themselves Otherwise they needed no pardon or repentance nor could it be a sinne to he betrayed into or kept in them And Pag 19. and 20. he saieth If they faile to vse such a measure of industry in finding truth as humane prudeÌ„ce and ordinary discretion shall advise them vnto in a matter of such consequence then their errors begin to be malignant and justly imputable as offences aganst God and that loue of his truth which he requires in vs. And he in the same place expresly affirmes that the farre greater parte of Protestants are in this case So that now he sends to Hell the greater parte of Protestants for the errours which they hold and yet makes no scruple to delude them with a verball Mock-Title that the Religion of Protestants is a safe way to salvation But this is not all He saieth Pag 218. N. 49. I would not be so mistaken as if I thought the errours even of some Protestants vnconsiderable things and matters of no moment For the truth is I am very fearefull that some of their opioions either as they are or as they are apt to be mistaken though not of themselves so damnable but that good and holy men may be saved with them yet are too frequent occasions of our remisnes and slacknesse in running the race of Christian Perfection of our deferring Repentance and conversion to God of our frequent relapses into sinne and not seldome of security in sinning and consequently though not certaine causes yet too frequent occasions of menâ— Damnation All these be his express words And how can that Religion be a safe way to salvation which not accidentally but even by the Doctrine thereof gives so frequent occasions of meâ—â— Damnation And Pag 387. N. 4. he grants that Charity Maintayned hath Something that has some probability to perswade some Protestants to forsake some of their opinions or other to leaue their Communion From which words it necessarily followes that all Protestants are in state of sinne and damnation either because they themselves hold errours or by reason they leaue not the Communion of those who hold them And P. 280. N. 95. he saith to vs Though Protestants haue some Errors yet they are not so great as yours which last though it were true as it is most false yet it is impertinent yea it makes against Protestants by granting that theyr errors are damnable though not so damnable as ours and consequently that their Religion cannot be a safe way to salvation And it is to be observed that he writes the saied words that Protestants baue some Errors in conformity to what Dr Potter confesses Pag 69. that errors and corruptions are not perfectly taken away among Protestants nor every where alike And what a safe way can that Sect be which by the Professors and Defenders thereof is confessed to be guilty of Errors against Faith and damnable in themselves He speaks also fully to my purpose when he saieth Pag 306. N. 106. For our continuing in their Communion he speaks of Protestants notwithstanding their errors the justification hereof is not so much that their errours are not damnable As that they require not the belief and profession of these errors among the conditions of their Communion Which excuse of his doth not extenuate but aggravate the
Religion of Protestants to be a safe way to salvation 16. But what if Mr. Chilling worth devest Protestants of that so needfull qualification by ignorance which he denies not to vs I will faithfully relate his words and leaue others to judge what a champion Protestants haue chosen Ch Ma part 1. Cap 5. N. 32. objects to Protestants that their departure from the Roman Church vpon pretence of errour could not be excused seing by leaving her they could not hope to avoide the like vnfundamentall nor be secured from Fundamentall errors To this Mr. Chillingworth Pag 290. N. 87. answers that Protestants are so farre from acknowledging that they haue no hope to avoide errors of the like nature and quality with ours which he confesses to be vnfundamentall that they proclaime to all the world that it is most easy and proue to so to doe all those that feare God aÌ„d love the Truth and hardly possible for them to doe otherwise without supine negligence and extreame impiety I will not insist here how strange and even ridiculous it is in him to say that it is most prone and easy for Protestants not to fall into errors at least not Fundamentall yea that it is hardly possible for them not to avoide such errours seing they disagree so irreconciliably among themselves and diverse of them fall into those pretended errours which we maintaine against Protestants all which one would think could not happen if it were most prone and easy for Protestants to avoide such errours and hardly possible for them to doe otherwise that is not to avoide them without supine negligence and extreame impiety But that which I saie now is That seing de facto he confesses Protestants to hold errours yea millions even the greater parte of them to be in error by their owne fault as we haue seene aboue it followes that in his judgment they are actually guilty of â—upine negligence and extreame impiety which vices certainly cannot stand with invincible or probable ignorance and so all erring Protestants are excluded from Mr. Chillingworths Excuse or Sanctuary of ignorance 17. Nay what if he hold the errours of Protestants to be vnpardonable Sure I am he saieth Pag 275. N. 58. God is infinitely just tod therefore as it â—â— to be feared will not pardon them who might easily haue come to the knowledg of the Truth and either through pridâ— or obstinacy or negligence would not Now we haue heard him avouch that it is easy for Protestants to come to the knowledg of the Truth and hardly possible for them to doe otherwise without supine negligence and extreame impiety and therefore it is to be feared God will not pardon them even in the opinion of Mr. I hil their selected Advocate though for ends of his owne he thought fit to publish his Book vnder this Title the Religion of Protestants a safe way to salvation 18. I saied in the third place That vnless he confess the Religion of Roman Catholiques to be a safe way to salvation he must not only affirme The Religion of Protestants not to be a safe way but also that Christian Religion is not a safe way to salvation And the Reason is cleare out of what hath bene saied already For seing he holds it not necessary that any Church be free from errours vnfundamentall and that the whole Church before Luther was infected with such errours and that at this day Protestants erre damnably I wonder of what ChristiaÌ„ church he can say with Reason it is a safe way to salvation if he deny it to the Roman Church which he confesses not to erre fundamentally And therefore if any Christian Church be a safe way we are safe even in the Principles of I hil and Potter And what greater security can be desired than when all sides both friends and Adversaries confess our possibility to be saved whereas we cannot with truth giue any such hope to Protestants without Repentance and retractation of their errors (a) Maximus hom 1. in Festo Palchae validis absque dubio uititur privilegijs qui causam de adversarijs assent instrumentis Speciosa victoria est contrariam partem chartulis suis velue proprijs laqueis irretire testimoniorum suorum vocibus confurare aemulum telis suis evincere vt pugnatoris tur argumenta tuis probentur vtilitatibus militare 19. I will say no more by way of Preface but only signify in a word for the Readers necessary knowledg or remembrace that there having bene printed a litle elegant and pithy Treatise with this Title Charity Mistaken with the want whereof Catholikes are vnjustly charged for affirming that Protestancy vnrepented destroies salvation And this Treatise having bene answered by Dr Potter the Doctors Answer was confuted by a Reply intituled Mercy and Truth Or Charity Maintayned by Catholiques To this Reply Mr Chillingworth published an Answer with this Title the Religion of Protestants a safe way to salvation against which diverse litle Treatises were presently put forth as I saied aboue and now I haue endeavoured to answer it at large By Cha Mi I shall hereafter vnderstand Charity Mistaken and by Ch Ma Charity Maintayned I cite the Second Edition of Dr Potters Book and the Oxford Edition of Mr Chillingworths which only I haue or could procure when and where I was to write this Answer and for brevityes sake speak to him as if he were Living As still he lives in his profane Booke and his Booke lives in the vaine esteeme of men who yet preteÌ„d to be ChristiaÌ„s A TABLE OF THE CHAPTERS An Introduction Touching the necessity of Divine Grace for all workes of Christian Piety Pag 1. Chap 1. Christian Faith necessary to Salvation is infallibly true Pag 37. Chap 2. All things necessary to be believed are not in particular evidently contayned in Scripture alone Pag 122. Chap 3. A Confutation of Mr Chillingworths errours against Holy Scripture Pag 279. Chap 4. A Living infallible Judge is necessary for deciding Controversyes in Matters of Faith Pag 352. Chap 5. In what manner and order wee proue the infallibility of the Church Pag 426. Chap 6. About Fundamentall and not Fundamentall Points of Faith Pag 440. Chap 7. Protestants are guilty of the sinne of Schisme Pag 458. Chap 8. Mr Chillingworrths errours concerning Repentance are examined and confuted Pag 596. Chap 9. The answer to the Preface of Charity Maintayned is examined Pag 623. Chap 10. The answer to his first Chapter about the state of the Question and whether amongst men of different Religions one side only can be saved Pag 630. Chap 11. The aÌ„swer to his Second Chapter concerning the meanes whereby the revealed Truths of God are conveyed to our vnderstanding and which must determine Controversyes in Faith and Religion Pag 648. Chap 12. The answer to his third Chapter about Fundamentall and not Fundamentall Points Pag 707. Chap 13. That the Creed contaynes not all Points necessary to be believed in answer to
of this Introduction LIII Let vs now come to handle the matter it selfe for which I know and acknowledge the necessity of grace and therfore renouncing all confidence in humane reason and force of nature with profoundest humility begge of the Eternall Father for the Merits of his only son Christ Iesus true God and true Man the assistance of the holy Ghost and his diuine spirit of Wisdome Vnderstanding Counsell Strength Knowledge Piety and aboue all the spirit of the Feare of our Lord mouing and assisting me willingly to suffer death rather than wittingly vtter any least falshood or conceale any truth in matters concerning Faith and Religion and so prostrate in soule and body I pray with the Wiseman Sap. 9 4.10 O Lord of mercy giue me wisdome the assistant of thy seates send her from thy holy Heauens and from the seate of thy greatness that she may be with me and may labour with me that so my labours of themselues most weake may by Grace tend first to the Glory of the most blessed Trinity and next to the eternall good of soules CHAP I. CHRISTIAN FAITH NECESSARY TO SALVATION IS INFALLIBLY TRVE 1. AS all Catholiques haue reason to grieue that we were necessitated to proue the necessity of Gods grace against our moderne Pelagians so euery Christian yea euery one who professes any Faith Religion or worship of a God may wonder that dealing with one who pretends to the name of Christian I should be forced to proue the Certainty and Infallibility of Christian Faith which M. Chillingworth not only denies but deepely censures Pag. 328 N o 6. as a Doctrine most presumptuous and vnchariatble and Pag. 325. N. 3. as a great errour and of dangerous and pernitious consequence and takes much paines to proue the contraay that is the fallibility of Christian Faith A strang vndertaking wherby he is sure to loose by winning and by all his Arguments to gaine only this Conclusion that his Faith in Christ of Scripture and all the mysteryes contained therin may proue fabulous and false And yet I confesse it to be a thing very certaine and euident that the deniall of jnfallibility in Gods Church for deciding controuersyes of Faith must ineuitably cast mē Vpon this desperate vnchristian and Antichristian doctrine and while Protestants mayntaine the Church to be fallible they cannot auoide this sequele that theire doctrine may be false since without jnfallibility in the Church they cannot be absolutely certaine that Scripture is the word of God O what a scandall doe these men cast on Christian Religion by either directly acknowledging or laying grounds from which they must yeild Christian Faith not to be jnfallibly true while Iewes Turks Pagās and all who professe any religion hold their belief to bee jnfallible and may justly vpbraide vs that euen Christians confess themselues not to be certaine that they are in the right and haue with approbation of greatest men in a famous Uniuersity published to the world such their sense and belief In the meane tyme in this occasion as in diuerse others I cannot but observe that Heretiques alwayes walke in extreams This man teacheth Christian Faith in generall and the very grounds therof not to be infallibly certaine Others affirme Faith to be certaine euen as it is applyed to particular persons whom they hold to be justifyed by an absolute certaine beliefe that they are just 2. But now let vs come to proue this truth Christian Faith is absolutely and infallibly true and not subject to any least falshood wherin although I maintayne the cause of all Christians and of all men and mankind who by the very instinct of nature conceiue the true Religion to signify a thing certaine as proceeding from God and vpon which men may and ought securely to rely without possibility of being deceiued and that for this reason the whole world ought to joyne with me against a common adversarie yet even for this very reason I knowe not whether to esteeme it a more dissicile taske or lamentable necessity that we are in a matter of this moment and quality to proue Principles or a Truth which ought to be no less certaine then any Argument that can be brought to prove it as hitherto all good Christians haue believed nothing to be more certainly belieued by Christian Faith than that it selfe is most certaine Yet confiding in his Grace whose Gift we acknowledg Faith to be I will endeauour to proue and defend this most Christian and fundamental truth against the pride of humane witt and all presumption vpon naturall forces 3. Our first reason may be taken from that which we haue touched already of the joynt conceypt vnanimous concent and inbred sense of men who conceyue Diuine Faith and Religion to imply a certainty of Truth and if they did once entertayne a contrary perswasion they would sooner be carryed to embrace no religion at all than weary their thoughtes in election of one rather than another being prepossessed that the best can bring with it no absolute certainty Thus by the vniversall agreement of men we proue that there is a God and from thence conclude that the beliefe of a Deity proceeds from the light of nature which also assures vs that God hath a prouidence ouer all things and cannot want meanes to communicate himselfe with reasonable creatures by way of some light ād knowledg exempt from feare or possibility of fraude or falshood especially since Rationall nature is of it selfe 〈…〉 truth and Religion or worship of a God This consideration is excellently pondered and deliuered by S. Austin de vtilitate credendi Cap. 16. in these words Authority alone is that which incites ignorant persons that they make hast to wisdome Till we can of our selues vnderstand the truth it is a miserable thing to be deceyved by Authority yet more miserable it is not to be moued therwith For if the Divine prouidence do not command humane thinges no care is to be taken of Religion But if the beauty of all things which without doubt we are to belieue to flow from some fountayne of most true pulcritude by a certaine internall feeling doth publikly and priuatly exhort all best soules to seeke and serue God We cannot despaire that by the same God there is appointed some Authority on which we relying as vpon an infallible stepp may be eleuated to God Behold a meanes to attaine certainty in belief by some infallible authority appointed by God which can be none but the Church from which we are most certaine what is the writtē or vnwrittē word of God 4. M. Chillingworth professes to receiue Scripture from the vniuersall Tradition of all Churches though yet there is scarcely any booke of Scripture which hath not beene questioned or rejected by some much more therfore ought all Christian to belieue Christian Faith to be jnfallible as beinge the most vniversall judgment and Tradition of all Christians for their Christians beliefe and of all men for their
the vnderstanding dres all and the will nothing And yet that it is Necessitated is a cleare truth since you professe to believe with no more certainty than is evidently deduced from evident Premises and the vnderstanding is no less necessitated to give assent to a probable conclusion draweÌ„ evideÌ„tly from knowen probable Premises than it is forced to an assent of a certaine Conclusion deduced from demonstratiue Premises Pag 331. N. 8. having sett downe some Principles which you judg to be evident and certaine you conclude thus From all these Premises this Conclusion evidently follows that it is infallibly certaine that we are firmly to believe the truth of Christian Religion And in the same Pag. 331. N. 9. There is an abundance of Arguments exceedingly credible inducing men to believe the truth of Christianity I say so credible that though they cannot make vs evidently see what we believe yet they evidently convince that in true wisdome and prudence the Articles of it deserue credit and ought so be accepted as things revealed by God therfor there is convincing evidence for the truth of Christian Articles as farr as you believe them And Pag 36. N. 9. you affirme that God requires of all that their Faith should be proportionable to the motiues and Reasons enforcing to it If the Reasons enforce to the Conclusion how is it not necessitated Therfor your Faith is both free according to your owne words and necessitated according to truth in your grounds which is also convinced by your saying that certainty cannot be without evidence And therfor the Faith of your choise elevated people which you say is certaine must be evident and consequently not free But our Faith raysing vs above the evident Arguments of Credibility remaines free and is in no sense necessitated 86. II. For your epithetons of being certaine and vncertaine we profess and believe nothing more certainly than that our Faith is certaine and not capable either of falshood or vncertainty But your Booke is Chiefly imployed to prove your Faith not to be certaine and we are well content it be so Yet if you remember what you say of your choysest persons and best Believers that they have a certainty beyond evidence and yet expressly teach that certainty cannot be greater than the evidence of the Object as I shewed above it followes clearly that you give them a certainty which your self hold impossible fot any to have and so you give them certainty and not certainty that is a meere contradiction or nothing 87. III. For the denominations of Evident Obscure They agree not to our Faith which we believe to be Obscure not evident as I have explicated elswhere But for your Faith according to your grounds it must be both evident and obscure Evident because you believe with no greater assent than you receyve by evident Arguments and accordingly you say Pag 329. N. 7. Nothing is more repugnant than that a man should be required to give most certaine credit vnto that which cannot be made appeare most certainly credible And if it appeare to him to be so then it is not obscure that it is so According to which we must say that nothing is more vnreasonable than that a man should be required to give probable credit vnto that which cannot be made appeare probably credible and if it appeare to him to be so then it is not obscure that it is so Therfore in your grounds you must believe nothing to be true but according to the evidence which you have therof And therfor Pag. 330. N. 7. you say in express termes That I should believe the truth of any thing the truth wherof cannot be made evident with an evidence proportionable to the degree of Faith required of me this I say for any man to be bound to is vnjust and vnreasonable because to do it is impossible Therfor your Faith is evident in respect of the truth which you believe according to the measure of your belief therof If you did believe with certainty a truth for which you haue only probable arguments such a truth I grant were not evident in proportion to your assent but since you believe the truth of Christian Religion only with a probable assent and that you have evidence of those Reasons which cause your assent to such a truth it is cleare that your Faith is evident to you as farr as your belief goes And yet you must hold it to be obscure otherwise it could not be capable of obedience as you pretend it to be because you say there can be no obedience where the vnderstanding doe all and the will nothing 88 Fourthly You say our Faith is prudent and foolish That our Faith is prudent and yours imprudent Charity Maintayned hath proved Chap. 6. and yet since you will say that yours is prudent it will remayne imprudent indeed and prudent in your words And indeed none but an enemy to Christianity can affirme our Faith and Religion to be imprudent if he consider well what a deadly wound he gives to Christian Religion by saying so For take from vs the Marks of a true Religion which are conspicuous in our Church only you deprivâ— Christianity of Motives or Arguments of Credibility sufficient to move or oblige men to embrace it where I pray except in our Church can be found Antiquity perpetuall Existence and Visibility Vniversality of Tyme and Place Succession of Pastours Vnity and effectuall meanes to conserve it Sanctity Miracles Efficacy in the conversion of Gentils which the Ancient Fathers vrge as a strong argument to prove the truth of Christian Religion against the Iewes Amplitude and Glory of Christs Kingdome fortold by the Prophets The very name Catholike with other Notes of the true Church which evidently agree to Our Church and are manifestly wanting to Protestants vnless they begg or vsurpe them from vs as the carefull Reader must confesse if he do but severally reflect on them While therfor you blaspheme the Faith of our Church to be foolish you do in fact lay the same imputation on Christian Religion Seing then you cannot without prejudice to Christian Religion affirme our Faith to be imprudent and foolish you must in good consequence be content that your owne beare that denomination Besides Pag. 331. N. 10. you say Charity maintayned was mistaken in making prudence not only a commendation of a believer and a justification of his Faith but also essentiall to it and part of the definition of it and did as if one being to say what a man is should define him a reasonable creature that hath skill in Astronomy For as all Astronomers are men but all men are not Astrâ—nomers and therfor Astronomy ought not to be put into the definition of men where nothing should have place but what agrees to all men So though all that are truly wise that is wise for eternity will believe aright yet many may beleeve aright which are not wise By which words you give vs to
to our owne conjectures may be alledged contrary wayes as for example you say that the doctrine of indulgences is dangerous because it may take away the feare of Purgatory And why may not I say that the denying of Indulgences besides the Heresy which is of it selfe damnable is dangerous for the sequeles because the want of that devotion and omission of very many works of many vertues as repentance pennance Charity c to which a desire and endeavour to gaine Indulgences would moue vs would very probably hinder the salvation of many which otherwise might haue bene saved as you say of hearing the publike Offices celebrated in a toung not vnderstood by all Concerning which instances I say That if the doctrine of Protestants in this matter be false as most certainly it is then not very probably as you threaten vs but certainly they shall be damned who in this particular oppose their judgment and Practise against the Belief and Practise of the Catholique Church spread over the world before Luther appeared Nay I say morè that though we did suppose which we can never grant the Church to erre is this Poynt yet godly Laymen as you speake who in simplicity of hart and out of Ignorance obey the Church by this their Obedience oblige as I may say Allmighty God never to permit that their goodness and godliness proue to them an occasion of perdition Rather according to your manner of arguing and according to truth the defect of Obedience Religion and of other vertues which they exercise in hearing those Offices would hinder the salvatien of many which otherwise might haue bene saved Besides if the want of devotion which the frequent hearing the Offices vnderslood might happily beget may very probably binder the salvation of many which otherwise might haue bene saved why shall not Protestants be obliged in all their Churches to more frequent Service daily and howerly and be still receyving their Sacrament least for want of devotion which that frequency might happily beget the salvation of many be hindered which otherwise would haue bene saved In the Vniversityes they haue for most dayes in the weeke their publike Service in Latine which divers Lay men who may be present cannot vnderstand and so be deprived of that devotion the want wherof may hinder the salvation of many which otherwise might haue bene saved But seing many Catholique Writers haue handled this Poynt of publike Prayers in Latine both copiously and learnedly it is enough for me to haue answered and retorted your Objections vpon yourself and your Brethren and it is a great foolery to depriue men as you doe of their liberty by imaginary conditionall effects which without end may be turned on all sides 87. Your last Example deserves no other Answer than that it is grounded on a wicked supposition that to belieue the Vicar of Christ to be infallible in his Definitions could be a congruous disposition to belieue Antichrist or that Antichrist could get into that See as you impiously speake There is no malice comparable to the malice and blindness of Heresy But it is tyme for mee to returne from this necessary digression and to go forward in confuting the doctrine of the sole-sufficiency of Scripture And therfor 88. 15. From Protestants themselves I argue in this manner Most Protestants hold that we know Scripture to be the word of God by the private spirit or some quality inherent or internall to Scripture it self and think it so evident that to aske how we can know Scripture to be the word of God Calvin Lib. 1. Inst Cap. 7. sayth is all one as to aske whence we may learne how to discerne light from darkness white from blacke sweet from soure And the Scottish Minister Baron in Apodixi Tract 9 Q 4. Pag. 630. and Q. 6. Pag 663 Sect 2. saith The Scripture doth sufficiently manifest its devineness by its owne internall light majesty and efficacy Amesius de Circulo Pontificio saith We belieue that the Scriptures do shine by their owne light Whitaker De Scriptura Q. 3. Cap 3. ad 3. They who haue the Holy Ghost can know Gods voyce even as a frend is wont to know by the voyce his friend with whom he hath conversed most familiarly a long tyme. Potter sayth Pag 141. That Scripture is of divine authority the believer sees by that glorious beame of divine light which shines in Scripture and by many internall arguments found in the letter it self Which words while Chill interprets to signify only that men are strengthned in their belief by that beame of light which shines in Scripture he leaves no meanes for his client Potter to belieue with certainty the Scripture For he saith expressly in the same place that the Church only presents disposes and prepares which supposed there is saieth he in the Scripture it self light sufficient which though blind and sensuall men see not yet the eye of reason cleared by grace and assisted by the many motives which the church vseth for enforcing of her instructions one may discover to be divine descended from the Father and fountaine of light But how come you M. Chilling worth to know Scripture to be the word of God We take it from your owne words Pag 69. N. 46. where you say to your adversary The conclusiō of your tenth § is that the divinity of a writing cannot be knowen from it self alone but by some extrinsecall authority which you need not prove for no wise man denyes it But then this authority is that of vniversall traditiō not of your church Behold the agreemēt of protestāts in this maine poynt on which their whole religion depēds According to Potter Chill is a blind ād sesuall mā who sees not that glorious beame of divine light which shines in Scripture And Potter Calvin Baron ād other Protestants deny that which in Chilling worths judgment no wise man denyes Out of which premises of protestants it is easy to conclude That seing so many of them imagine a cleare light to shine in Scripture which others affirme no wise man can imagine which is very true for if there be such a light evidently shining in Scripture how is it possible that they can disagree about the Canon of Scripture or how could some books haue once been questioned which now are receyved for canonicall We must affirme that much more a particular text may to one seeme evidētly to signify that which to an other doth no way appeare but perhaps directly the contrary And therfor although we haue heard Calvin saying that it is as easy to discerne which be true scriptures as to distinguish betweē white ād blacke yet it appeares by what he writes L 4 Inst C. 9. N. 13. that for the interpreting of scripture more labour ād industry is required as is also cleare by the many ād hard rules which protestants require for interpretation therof as we haue seene aboue and therfor it is cleare evē frō the doctrines of
suppose you will not deny but that he can and then seing one cannot be a Saint or a converted sinner or persever to the end except by free Actions of the will proceeding from Grace you must grant that the congruous and efficacious Grace of God may consist both with freedome of our will aÌ„d infallibility in Gods fore-sight I sayd that if freewill in the Church cannot stand with infallibility neither could it consist with infallibility in the Apostles Now I add your Arguments proue not only against the fallibility of the Church and Apostles but also of Christ our Lord in your wicked doctrine that he is not God nor Consubstantiall to his Father but only man and then your demands enter whether he were moved by his Father resistibly or irresistibly And the same answer you giue for Him must be given for his Apostles and his Church You say Pag 86. N. 63. God gaue the Wâ—semen a starr to lead them to Christ but he did not necessitate them to follow the guidance of this starr that was left to their liberty But this instance makes against your self for no man dare deny but that God so moved those Wisemen as he was sure they would follow the starr and performe that for which he preseÌ„ted it to their eyes and gaue light to their vnderstandings and efficacy to their wills that so our Saviour Christ might be preached to the Gentils by their meanes as S. Leo serm 1. de Epiphan saith Dedit aspicientibus intellectum qui praestitit signum quod fecit intelligi fecit inquiri He who gaue the signe gaue them also light to vnderstand it and what he made to be vnderstood he made to be sought after where the word fecit signifyes that God did moue them effectually and yet we haue no necessity to say that they were necessitated 66. By what we haue sayd is answered a wild discourse which you make Pag. 87. N. 95. about the Popes calling the Councell of Trent which I haue shewed might be done both freely and yet proceed from the infallible fore-knowledg and Motion of the Holy Ghost And what you say of the Pope may be applyed against the Apostles and other Canonicall Writters why they did delay so long to write Scripture and whether they were moved to it resistibly or irresistibly c. 67. I conclude that togeather with the Church you impugne the infallibility of Christ and the Apostles and consequently of their Writings which forces me to repeat that according to your Doctrine scripture cannot be any Rule of Divine Faith and much less a sufficient Rule though it were supposed to contayne all necessary Points of Faith 68. Your 9. and most capitall Errour remaynes wherby you depriue scripture of certainty and infallibility and make both it and the contents of it lesse credible than the Books of prophane Authours and things related in them I meane your Assertion that we know Scripture to be the word of God not by an infallible private Spirit or by vndoubted criteria or signes appearing in Scripture it self as some other Protestants teach nor by the Church as infallibly assisted by the Direction of the Holy Ghost according to the Doctrine of Catholikes but from the Tradition of all Churches meerly as they are an Aggregation of men subject to Errour and as their consent is derived to vs by History and humane Tradition The private Spirit which must be tryed by Scripture and not Scripture by it and those pretended manifest signes found in Scripture it self are meere fopperyes confuted by the experience of so many learned men who hertofore haue differed and of Protestants who at this day differ about the Canon of Scripture and this forceth you to say to your Adversary Pag 69. N. 46. That the divinity of a writing cannot be knowne from it self alone but by some extrinsecall Authority you need not proâ—e for no wise man dâ—nyes it And therfor wheras Protestants teach that the Church is only an inducement and not the certaine ground for which we belieue Scripture you in opposition to them affirme that those criteria or signes are only Inducements but that the ground to receyve Scripture is the Church in the manner I haue declared Out of these considerations you choose rather to be sacrilegious then seeme to be simple or no wise man and therfor teach that Christian Faith is not infallibly true but only probable Which being a doctrine detested by other Protestants and by all respectiyely who profess any Religion and Worshipp of God it followes that we must receyue Scripture from the Church of God acknowledged to be infallible This being once granted we must further say that Her infallibility is vniversall in all things concering matters of Faith and Religion neither is it possible to bring some other infallible Authority to proue the Church infallible in this Point alone For to omitt other Reasons you must proue that Authority by some other and so without end In the meane tyme we haue reasoÌ„ to bless our good God who hath forced ProtestaÌ„ts at length to see the foolery of a private spirit and the vanity of manifest signes pretended to be found evidently in scripture and so come either to acknowledg the infallibility of Gods church or with Atheists and enemyes of Christian Religion to deny the infallibility of Christian Faith by setling the truth therof vpon humane fallible tradition which say you Pag. 72. N. 51. is a principle not in Christianity but in Reason nor proper to Christians but common to all men And Pag 53. N. 3. you teach that scripture may be judge of all controversyes those only excepted wherin the Scripture itself is the subject of the Question which cannot be determined but by naturall Reason the only Principle beside scripture which is common to Christians Behold the Analysis or Resolution of Christian Faith into humane fallible naturall Reason But now let vs shew the falshood of this your Errour 69. First it is an argument of no small waight that both in this devise itself you contradict all Catholikes and Protestants and in the consequence which inavoidably followes it namely that the assent of Christian Faith is fallible wherin as I sayd you contradict all Christians and all men who profess any Religion 70. 2. Christian Faith is infallible as I haue proved which it could not be if the ground on which it relyes were fallible 71. 3. It hath bene proved that Christian Faith is the Gift of God and in all occasions requires the supernaturall influence of the Holy Ghost which yet could not be necessary if Faith were but a fallible conclusion evidently deduced from a Principle not in Christianity but in naturall reason as we haue heard you profess and vpon that ground affirme that Christian Faith is only probable not raysing our Vnderstanding aboue the probability of humane inducements wherin it differs froÌ„ the judicium credibilitatis of which Catholike Divines speake and by which
so all comes to be vncertaine vnless we admit some infallible Living guide 78. But here I must reflect how apt you are in every occasion to write contradictoryes You say of the places of Scripture wherby we proue the in fallibility of the Church that they are as subject to corruption as any other and more likly to haue bene corrupted if it had bene possible then any other aâ—d made to speak as they do for the advantage of those men whose ambition it hath bene a long tyme to bring all vnder their authority You say that those places are more likly to haue bene corrupted if it had bene possible which signifyes that it was not possible and yet a few lines after you affirme that it is possible and not altogeather improbable that we haue done it Is the same thing not possible aÌ„d possible or not possible aÌ„d yet not improbable Beside you say it is more likly those places which we alledg for the infallibility of the Church haue bene corrupted if it had been possible than any other aÌ„d made to speake as they do for our advantage Wherin you confess that actually some places of Scripture speake for our advantage and then who are you to controwle Gods Word and speak against those for whose advantage it speakes Morover you say no proof can be pretended for the infallibility of the Church but incorrupted places of Scripture where you signify that nothing can be proved vnless we know certainly what places be incorrupted Now I aske whether it was possible for vs to corrupt those places which we bring to proue the infallibility of the Church or it was not possible If it were not possible then you wrong vs in saying that it is both possible and not altogeather improbable that we haue done it If it be possible then as I sayd what certainty haue you that we haue not done it seing you say it is both possible and not improbable that we haue done so Or what certainty can you haue that others haue not done the like in other Texts for defence of their severall Doctrines 79. Lastly You still go vpon a false ground that we cannot proue the Church otherwise then by Scripture wheras we must first proue Scripture by the Church 80. 8. How vncertaine your kind of Tradition is appeares by your owne words which are such as no enemy of Christian Religion could haue vttered more to the prejudice therof than you doe Pag 90. N. 101. Where in the Person of a member of the ProtestaÌ„t Church of England you speake to Catholiks in this manner You haue wronged so exceedingly his Christs Miracles and his Doctrine by forging so evidently so many false Miracles for the confirmation of your new Doctrine which might giue vs just occasion had we no other assurance of them but your Authority to suspect the true ones what Authority haue you but that of the Roman Church and such as agreed with Her Who with forging so many false Storyes and false Authors haue taken a faire way to make the Faith of all Storyes Questionable if we had no other ground for our belief of them but your Authority who haue brought in Doctrines plainly and directly contrary to that which you confess to be the word of Christ ô portentuous vntruth and which for the most part make either for the honour or profit of the Teachers of them which if there were no difference between the Christian and the Roman Church would be very apt to make susptâ—ious men belieue that Christian Religion was a humane invention taught by some cunning Impostors only to make themselves rich and powerfull I pray you what good Christians were there before Luther except Roman Catholiques and such as agreed with them And therefore what difference can you put between good Christians and Roman Catholicks Who make a profession of corrupting all sorts of Authors a ready course to make it justly questionable whether any remay ne vncorrupted For if you take this Authority vpon you vpon the six Ages last past how shall we know that the Church of that tyme did not vsurpe the same Authority vpon the Authors of the six last Ages before them and so vpwards till we come to Chrict himself Whose questioned Doctrines none of them came from the fountaine of Apostolike Tradition but haue insinuated themselves into the streames by little and little some in one Age and some in another some more Anciently some more lately and some yet are Embryos yet hatching and in the shell Thus you and then conclude Seeing therefore the Roman Church is so farr from being a sufficient Foundation for our belief in Christ that it is in sundry regards a dangerous temptation against it why should I not much rather conclude seeing we receiue not the knowledg of Christ and Scriptures from the Church of Rome neither from her must we take his Doctrine or the Interpretation of Scripture 81. Now let the Reader consider 1. If the Roman Church and all those Churches which agreed with Her before Luther that is all true Churches of Christ be such a thing as he describes what can they contribute to make vp any part of his vniversall Tradition Yea she must needs make it suspected for false fallacious fraudulent And then what Tradition will remayne creditable or even considerable The Greeke Church agreed and at this day agrees with Catholiques against Protestants as is manifest and confessed by learned Protestants for which cause they did directly refuse to joyne with Luther and his Associates The Muscovites Armenians Georgians Aethiopians or Abissines either hold the Doctrine of Eutyches which even Protestants detest as a damnable Heresy or vse Circumcision or for the rest agree with the Greek and Roman Church and they can contribute little to your Tradition I desire the Reader to peruse Charity Maintayned C 5. from N. 48. to 54. were he will find clearly demonstrated what I haue now sayd of the Greek and other Churches Since then you blast the credit of the Roman Church and such as agreed with Her against Protestants there will remayne no Tradition at all 82. 2. You say That we by forging Miracles Might giue just occasion had you no assurance of them but our Authority to suspect the true ones of Christ and by forging so many false storyes and false Authors haue taken a faire way to make the faith of all Storyes questionable if you had no other ground for your belief of them but our Authority This is your Assertion or Major Proposition to which if an enemy of Christian Religion will subsume and add this Minor which is evidently true But you can haue no assurance of Miracles and ground for belief of Storyes but by our Testimony or Tradition as I haue clearly proved What will be the Conclusion but this That there is just occasion to suspect true Miracles of Christ and Question all Storyes Behold the effect of your Tradition This I confirme out of what you
not this a goodly Tradition to be the ground of our belief of Scripture and all Christian Religion May not the enemyes of Christian Religion triumph and say we can alledg no Authors which may not justly be questioned whether they be not corrupted Which in effect is all one for erecting an Act of Faith as if we were sure they were corrupted 86. 6. You say Seing the Roman church is so farr from being a sufficient foundation for our belief in Christ that it is in sundry regards a dangerous temptation against it why should I not much rather Conclude Seing we receiue not the knowledg of Christ and Scriptures from the church of Rome neither from her must we take his Doctrine or interpretation of Scripture But still I must aske from what true Christian church could England or any member of any church in England receyue the Scripture and knowledg of Christ except from the Church of Rome and such as agreed with Her You confess it is not necessary to proue any church distinct from ours before Luther and yet you will not deny but it is necessary to receiue the Scripture from some church seing you profess to belieue the Scripture which you hold for a sufficient foundation of your belief in Christ vpon the sole Authority of the church and therfor you must take the direct negatiue of your conclusion and say seing we receiue the knowledg of Christ and Scriptures from the church of Rome from her we must take his Doctrine and the interpretation of Scripture Having thus pondered your sayings and proved that they overthrow Christian Religion we may now goe forward to impugne this your Tradition And therfor 87. 9. We haue shewed how vncertaine and dangerous your Tradition must needs be by reason of corruption to which all writings haue bene subject if your Assertions were true But besides this I will demonstrate how insufficient your Tradition must be of it self ād much more if you add the sayd danger of corruption Pag 273. N. 56. You alledg Charity Maintayned saying Part. 1. Chap 5. N. 17. VVhen Luther appeared there were not two distinct visible true Churches one pure the other corrupted For to faine this diversity of two Churches cannot stand with record of Historyes which are silent of any such matter and then you reply in these words The ground of this is no way certaine nor here sufficiently proved For wheras you say Historyes are silent of any such matter I answer there is no necessity that you or I should haue redd all Historyes that may be extant of this matter nor that all should be extant that were written much less extant vncorrupted especially considering your Church which had lately all power in her hands hath bene so perniciously industrious in corrupting the monuments of Antiquity that made against her nor that all records should remayne which were written nor that all should be recorded which was done Nothing could haue bene spoken more effectually to proue the necessity of a Living Judge who being once vpon good and solid reason most certainly believed to be infallible as the Apostles proved their owne infallibility takes away all doubt or possibility of feare least the want or corruption or alteration or contrariety of any writings or records may weaken our Belief of whatsoever such an Authority proposes For till one be setled in the strength of such an Authority one may be doubting of whatsoever fallible Tradition whether there may not be extant some Storyes Records or Tradition contrary to that which he followes there being no necessity that he should haue redd all Storyes nor that all Historyes or Records should be extant that were written which if they had bene extant and had come to his knowledg perhaps might haue moved him to relinquish the Tradition which now he embraceth nor that all should be recorded which was done and therfor he cannot tell whether somthing may not haue bene done repugnant to that which his Tradition induces him to belieue nor finally whether the Tradition on which he relyes hath not bene corrupted and therfor sit only to lead him into and keepe him in errour Which yet is further confirmed by your words Pag 266. N. 35. Why may not you mistake in thinking that in former Ages in some country or other there were not alwayes some good Christians which did not so much as externally bow their knees to your Baal And then Sr why may not you mistake in thinking that in former ages there were not alwayes some good Christians who did not agree with those from whom you take your Vniversall Tradition which therfor will indeed cease to be Vniversall Do you not see how strongly you argue against yourself And yet my next Reason will affoard more in this kind 88. 10. I take an Argument from what you deliver Pag 130. N. 6. where impugning some who as you say Hold the Acceptation of the decrees of Councells by the Vniversall Church to be the only way to decide Controversyes You haue these words VVhat way of ending controversyes can this be when either part may pretend that they are part of the Church and they receaue not the decree therfor the whole Church hath not receyved it I beseech you apply your owne words thus what way of ending Controversyes about the Canon of Scripture can this be when either part may pretend that they are part of the Church and they receiue it not therfor the whole Church hath not receyved it By this doctrine of yours those Heretiks who as you confess Pag 361. N 40. out of S. Irenaeus did accuse the Scriptures as if they were not right and came not from good Authority might haue defended themselves by saying the whole Church had not receyved them because they themselves were part of the Church and did not receiue them According to this account your vniversall Tradition comes to be nothing because whosoever dissent from the rest will be ready to say that they also are part of the whole and so no Tradition contrary to them can be vniversall just as you say that Luther and his fellowes departed not from the whole Church because they did not depart from themselves and they were part of the Church Also Pag 362. N. 41. You overthrow your owne Tradition while you write thus Though the constant and vniversall delivery of any doctrine by the Apostolike Churches ever since the Apostles be a very great Argument of the truth of it Yet there is no certainty but that truth even Divine truth may through mens wickedness be contracted from its vniversality and interrupted in its perpetuity and so loose this Argumēt and yet not want others to justify and support itself For it may be one of those principles which God hath written in all mens harts or a conclusion evidently arising from them It may be either contayned in Scripture in express termes or deducible from it by apparēt consequēce But good Sr. seing that the Canō of
which differences the vnlearned amongst them being not able to judg they cannot prudently joyne themselves rather to one than another Sect as for the same reason they being not learned cannot prudently conceiue themselves able to convince vs out of Scripture no more than they can judg what company of Sectaryes is to be preferred before all other seing the learned Protestants cannot convince one another especially if we remember that they assigne for vnderstanding the sense of Scripture many Requisites and Rules which exceed the capacity of the vnlearned who therfor must resolue either to be of no Religion at all which no man indued with the common light of reason can resolue or els must judg that they may safely and ought constantly to imbrace the Catholique Roman Religion which if they doe their proceeding being prudent God will not be wanting to affoard them his supernaturall concurrence for the production of an Act of Faith even though we should suppose that the particular immediate reasons which induce them to this resolution be not of themselves certaine and infallible but yet such as all circumstances considered are prudent and the best that occurre in such an occasion Beside No Man of ordinary discretion knowledg and prudence though otherwise vnlearned can choose but haue heard that the Roman Religion is very ancient that divers learned Protestants thinke very well of it and of those who dy in that profession yea expressly grant that divers whom they belieue to be Saints in Heaven did liue and dye in our Religion they see evidently that we agree among ourselves that great Miracles haue bene wrought in our Church with the happy success of converting Infidells to Christian Religion Wheras contrarily for every one of the sayd considerations it is evident that Protestants cannot chaleng them yea they profess that before Luther the world was in darkness and that their reformation began with him that we hold no Heretike whether Protestant or other can be saved without repentance and yet as I sayd that the most learned among Protestants grant Vs salvation that they haue no peace among themselves nor can ever hope for it that they profess Miracles to haue ceased that they do not so much as endeavour to convert Nations and yet every Christian believes that Christ commanded his Apostles to preach the Gospell to Nations for their conversion these things I say and divers other are so manifest that the vnlearned cannot be ignorant of them and therfor no Protestant can prudently adhere to any particular Sect. 22. You in particular who teach that Christian Faith is but probable must profess that even learned Protestants haue no infallible ground for their Faith For if they had such a ground and did certainly know it to be such their Faith would be infallible which you deny But this head of vncertainty doth nothing at all touch Catholikes learned or vnlearned who vnanimously believe Christian Faith to be absolutely certaine and infallible Out of these grounds I come now to answer your Objections 23. You aske Pag 93. N. 108. How shall an vnlearned man ignorant of Scripture know watch of all the Societyes of Christians is indeed the Church 24. Answer This Demand must be answered by yourself who profess to belieue the Scripture for the Authority of the Church as for the chief ground of such your belief and other Protestants acknowledg the Church to be an inducement to belieue it How then do you and they independently of Scripture or before they belieue Scripture know which of all the Societyes of Christians is indeed the Church The Church was before Scripture and might still haue continued without Scripture in which respect there cannot want evident Notes to distinguish between the true and false Church even for the vnâ—â—arned if they will apply themselves to cooperate with the occasions and Grace which Goind his Goodness never failes to offer 25. But then say you ibidem seeing men may deceive and be deceyved and their words are not demonstrations how shall he be assured that what they say is true Answer First the Notes and Markes of Gods Church are so patent that every one may evidently see them vpon condition that he be not negligent in an affaire of so great moment 2. I haue shewed already that the Meanes by which infallible grounds of Faith are applyed to every one need not be of themselves infallible as also I haue declared the difference between vnlearned Catholikes and Protestants in this behalf Now the true Church being once found your other Objections are of no force For that Church infallibly directed by the Holy Ghost cannot faile to make Decrees and conserue or renew and communicate them to faithfull people as need shall require A thing not hard to be done in the Catholike Church professing obedience to one supreame Head the Vicar of Christ and Successour to S. Peter who by subordinate Prelates and Pastours can easily and effectually convey Decrees Ordinations and Lawes to all sorts of Persons 26. You say Pag 94. N. 108. even the learned among vs are not agreed concerning divers things whether they be de fide or not But this can apport no prejudice to the vnlearned yea nor to the learned so that they all stand prepared and resolved to belieue and obey what the Church shall determine which as I haue often sayd she will be sure to doe when it shall be necessary for the good of soules and to doe it so as her voyce shall be clearly heard and vnderstood by one or more decrees and declarations Thus we see Generall Councells haue declared divers Points of Faith after they began to be controverted by some and found meanes to notify them to Catholikes of all sorts I beseech you what Christians after the ancient and sacred Councell of Nice were ignorant that Arius and is followers your progenitours were condemned for denying our Saviour Christ to be the Son of God true God and equall to his Father Or what Catholike in these latter tymes is ignorant that Heretikes hold and haue bene condemnd for holding divers Errours contrary to the belief and practise of the Catholique Church as making the signe of the Crosse The Reall presence and Adoration of our Saviour Christ in the B. Sacrament the Sacrifice of the Masse Prayers to the Saints in Heaven and for the Soules in Purgatory Worshipping of Images Seaven Sacraments observing of set feasts and fasts vow of Chastity for Persons in holy Orders and Religious men and woemen and the like 27. You vrge Pag 94. N. 108. How shall an vnlearned man be more capable of vnderstanding the sense of Decrees made by the Church then of plaine Texts of Scripture especially seing the Decrees of divers Popes and Councells are conceyved so obscurely that the learned cannot agree about the sense of them And then they are written all in such languages which the ignorant vnderstand not and therfor must of necessity rely herin vpon the vncertaine and
is profanely applyed to our present case wherin it is an vnspeakable benefit to haue our liberty not taken away but moderated directed and elevated to the End of Eternall Happyness If in any case certainly in this that saying Licentia omnes sumus deteriores is most true as lamentable experience teaches in so many Heresyes and so implacable contentions of Heretikes among themselves by reason of the liberty which every one presumes to take in interpreting Holy Scripture And for avoiding so great an inconvenience and mischeife it is necessary to acknowledg some infallible Living Judg and so your Rule for Liberty being rightly applyed proves against yourself And the Church having once confessedly enjoyed infallibility I must returne against you your owne words Me thinkes in all Reason you that presume to take away Priviledges once granted by God himself for the Eternall Good of soules should produce some exprress warrant for this bold attempt especially it being a Rule Privilegia sunt amplianda chiefly when they proceed from a Soveraigne Power and are helped by that Dictate of Reason Melior est conditio possidentis And in the meane tyme you are hee who breake that Rule Ubi contrarium non manifestè probatur praesumitur pro libertate by pretending that men are obliged to submit Reason though seeming never so certaine and evident to the contents of Scripture which yet you teach not to be manifestly and certainly but only probably true Against which is your owne saying Praesumitur pro libertate vbi contrarium non manifestè probatur as it happens in your fallible and only probable Faith which cannot be manifestly proved to be true for if it could be so proved Christian Faith should be absolutely certaine and not only probable And so continually you are framing Arguments in favour of your Adversary 76. I will not here loose tyme in examining your saying Pag 101. N. 126. The Bookes of Scripture which were receyved by those that receyved fowest had as much of the Doctrine of Christianity in them as they all had which were receyved by any all the necessary parts of the Gospell being contayned in every one of the Gospells Are not the divers profitable things which are contained in some of the Gospells and omitted in others part of the Doctrine of Christianity taught by the Apostles to Christians Besides what can you vnderstand by these words Pag 101. N. 125. For ought appeares by your reasons the Church never had infallibility And yet Charity Maintayned spoke of the Church of Christ as it was before any Scripture of the new TestameÌ„t was written which Church He proved to be infallible because at that tyme there could be no other infallible Rule or Judg which is a cleare aÌ„d convincing ReasoÌ„ And so I hope it appeares by his Reasons that the Church once had infallibility 77. Sixthly You haue these words Pag 115. N. 156 Nothing can challeng our belief but what hath descended to vs from Christ by Originall and vniversall Tradition Now nothing but Scripture hath thus descended to vs. Therfore nothing but Scripture can challeng our belief Now I saie in like manner it is neither delivered in Scripture nor otherwise hath descended to vs from Christ by Originall and Vniversall Tradition that Scripture is not at this tyme joyned with some infallible Living Judg as once it was or that the Church was ever devested of that Authority and infallibility which it had or that God had provided a plaine and infallible Rule to supply the defect of a Living and infallible Guide as you say or that Scripture alone without Tradition is the Rule of Faith Therfore none of these Points can challeng our belief My saying hath bene proved hertofore and yourself confess that you do not proue out of Scripture that with the entring of it infallibility went out of the Church but contrarily that they did remayne togeather for a tyme. 78. Seaventhly I take an Argument from your owne Doctrine that Scripture is not a materiall Object of Faith or an Article which we belieue To which Maior I subsume thus But that Meanes by assenting to which alone I belieue all other Points must itself be assented to and believed for how can I believe any thing for an Authority which I do not belieue Therfore Scripture alone cannot be the Meanes by which I come to belieue all other Points And seing no other ordinary Meanes to produce Faith can be assigned besides Scripture and the Church we must inferr that the Church is the ordinary Meanes to produce Faith and decide Controversyes in Religion and consequently even according to your owne Doctrine she must be infallible Otherwise as you say of the Meanes to decide controversyes Pag 35. N. 7. We can yield vnto it but a wavering and fearfull Assent in any thing 79. Eightly You confess that the Church erring in any Fundamentall Point ceases to be a Church and seing you also profess that we cannot know what points in particular be Fundamentall you cannot know whether the Church de facto hath not fayled vnless we belieue that she is infallible and cannot fayle And yet most Protestants graâ—â— that the Church cannot fayle our Saviour having promised tha◠〈◊〉 gates of Hell shall not prevaile against Her In so much as Whitaker against Reynolds in his Answer to the Preface Pag â—3 saith 〈◊〉 belieue to the comfort of our soules that Christs Church â—â—th continued and never shall faile so long as the world endureth And we account is a sprophane Heresy to teach otherwise And Potter avoucheth that Christ hath promised the Church shall never fayle as you confesse Pag 277. N. 61. That there shall be by divine Providence preserved in the world to the worlds end such a company of Christians who hold all things precisely and indispensably necessary to salvation and nothing inevitably destructive of it This and no more the Doctour affirmes that God hath promised absolutely And yourself say Pag 106 N. 140. VVâ— yield vnto you that there shall be a Church which never erreth in some Points because as we conceyue God hath promised so much By the way if according to Whitaker it be a profane Heresy to say the Church shall fayle and that according to Potter God hath promised so much absolutly yea and that it was a most proper Heresy in the Donatists against that Article of our Creed I belieue the Catholike Church and that you also conceiue our Saviour Christ hath done so how dare you say Pag 15. N. 18. The contrary Doctrine I do at no hand belieue to be a damnable Heresy Is it not a damnble Heresy to belieue that Christ can faile of his promise Besides since these Protestants profess and you also conceaue that God hath promised the Church shall certainly be assisted so far as not to erre in Fundamentall Points I aske whether the Church can resist such an Assistance or Motion of God or no Whatsoever you answer for Protestants and yourself
will serue for an Answer to this very Objection of resistibility or irresistibility which you make against vs who defend the infallibility of the Church and absolute certaine Assistance that she shall never erre in matters belonging to Faith and Religion But to returne 80. Seing the Church cannot perish she cannot faile in Fundamentall Points and seing also you confess that it is impossible to determine in particular what Poynts be Fundamentall and we see other Protestants could never yet agree in giving a Catalogue of such Points we must either belieue that she can faile in no Points at all or else we cannot be sure that she failes not in Fundamentall Articles This granted I go a step further and say that seing in the ordinary course of Gods Providence we are not taught by immediate Revelations Enthusiasmes or the like but by the Ministery of the Church it followes that God hath indued and adorned her with such Prerogatives and Notes that all who will cooperate with Gods Grace may attaine the knowledg of Her and be able to joyne themselves to Her Communion and abandon all other false Synagogues or Congregations Otherwise it is all one to make the true Church invisible or vndiscernable from other Communityes and to say there is no true Church at all in order to any fruit which faithfull people can take or receiue from Her and infallibility in Fundamentall Points which even Protestants grant Her will serue to no purpose at all It is your owne saying Pag 105. N. 139. No Church can possibly be fit to be a Gaide but only a Church of some certaine denomination And what comfort can it be to our soules as Whitaker sayd That Christs Church never shall faile if we cannot know where that Church is nor that there be Meanes and Notes to shew her vnto vs Neither can any be obliged to obey her Commands follow her Doctrine heare her preachers frequent her Sacraments c vnless they can be sure to find her Rom 10. Vers 14.15 How shall they belieue him whom they haue not heard And how shall they heare without a Preacher But how shall they preach vnless they be sent Behold preaching in the ordinary course necessary to Faith and lawfull Mission necessary to Preaching All which can belong only to the visible true Church For this cause Ephes 4. There must be in the Church Pastors to governe and Doctors to teach And Esay 62.6 We reade vpon thy walles Jerusalem I haue appointed watchmen all the day and all the night for ever they shall not hold their peace If they hold not their peace they must haue auditours who must be knowne and these must know where their Preachers are to be found Even Calvin Lib 4. Inst Chap 1. Sect 4. Saith that the knowledg of the visible Church is not only profitable but necessary for vs and that we are to be kept vnder her custody and government all the dayes of our life our weakness requiring that we be her Disciples through the whole course of our life And having Sect 5. alledged the words Eph 4.11 He adds We see that God who could make men perfect in a moment yet will not do it but by the education of the Church God inspires Faith but by Meanes of the Gospell as Paul tell vs Rom 10.17 That Faith comes by hearing Although the Power of God be not tyed to outward meanes yet he hath tyed vs to the ordinary way of teaching Wherby we see that even those who talke so much of the private Spirit yet profess that it is not given without the Ministery of the Church as I saied above Fulk also in his Answer to the counterfaite Catholike Pag 100. sayes of Preachers Truth cannot be continued in the world but by their Ministery And in Propositions and Principles disputed in the vniversity of Geneva Pag 845. The Ministery is an esseÌ„tiall mark of the true Church Mr. Deering in his Reading vpon the Epistle to the Hebrewes Chap 3. Lecture 15. sayth Salvation springeth in preaching of the Gospell and is shut vp againe with the ceasing of it And Ibid Lectur 16. fine Take away preaching you take away Faith Cartwright in his second Reply Part 1. Pag 381. circa medium maintayneth that the people perish where there be no preachers although there be Readers And that by bare reading ordinarily there is no salvation no Faith Let Protestants marke this If Scripture were of itself evident in all Points of Faith it were sufficient to reade it and people need not perish for want of preaching but Faith and salvation might be had without it by only reading Scripture 81. Out of what hath bene sayd these important Corollaryes are manifestly deduced First That the true Church which all ought to seeke and may find if they indeavour aÌ„d be not waÌ„ting to Gods Grace is a visible Congregation which may be distinguished from all other aÌ„d so come to be of one denominatioÌ„ For it is evideÌ„t our Saviour sayd not of false pastours aÌ„d prelates he that heares you heares me Luc 10.16 nor were false Preachers sent by him nor did he appoynt Pastours Doctors c. to be followed in a false Church nor did he appoynt watchmen c. in Babylon but in Jerusalem nor can the sayings of Protesâ—nts which I haue â—ited aboue be vnderstood either of a false Church or of a true Church as it were in generall and in abstracto without being possible to be knowen in particular But they must be vnderstood of a true Church with relation to vs and the salvation of particular persons for which end our B Saviour did constitute and doth preserue Her What els â—â—n Calvins words signify That it is necessary for vs to know her That the keepes and defends vs That we must be her Discrples That our of her â—osome no remission of sins can be hoped That although God could yet he will not bring Vs to perfection but by the education of the Church That he inspires Faith by the instrument of the Gospell and Meanes of hearing and that God hath tyed vs to this ordinary way And what els can Fulk and other Protestants meane For it were but foolery to say That an vnknowne Ministery is an essentiall Mark of the true Church Or that salvation springeth in a preaching not known where to be found and is shut vp with ceasing of it Or that truth cannot be continued in the world without the ministery of Preachers Or of any such sayings 82. Secondly It followes that seing there must alwayes be a knowne particular Church which cannot perish that is in your Principles cannot erre in Fundamentall Points that knowen Church must be infallible absolutely in all Points Fundamentall and not Fundamentall For if we did conceiue she could erre in any one Point of Faith we could not rely on her Authority in any other which you also grant as we haue lately shewed and Pag 105. N. 139. you speake directly to our present
Maintayned it followes that they remaine still in force and proue this most necessary Truth Scripture alone is not a sufficient Rule of Faith but Tradition and a living Judg are necessary to determine Matters belonging to Faith and Religion And whosoever will take an other way will haue reason and God grant it proue not too late to tremble at those words of Uincent Lirinens contra Heres Cap 23. concerning Origen Dum parvi pendit antiquam Christianae Religionis simplicitatem dum Ecclesiasticas Traditiones Veterum magisteria contemnens quaedam Scripturarum capitula novo more interpretatur meruit vt de se quoque Ecclesiae Dei diceretur Si surrexerit in medio tui Propheta Et paulò post Non audies inquit verba Prophetae illius While he despises the ancient simplicity of Christian Religion while contemning Ecclesiasticall Traditions and magistery of the Ancient he interprets some places of Scripture in a new manner he deserved that it should be also sayd to the Church of him If there shall rise in middes of thee a Prophet And a litle after thou shalt not heare the words of that Prophet God grant that every one heare this wholsome advise The neglect therof alone hath beene cause of Schismes and heresyes in ancient Tymes and never more than in these lamentable dayes of ours 101. But because you do without end object that we cannot proue the infallibility of the Church without running round in a Circle proving the Church by Scripture and Scripture by the Church which is in effect to proue the Church by the Church and the Scripture by Scripture I will in the next Chapter endeavour to confute and shew the vanity of this so often repeated Objection CHAP V. IN WHAT MANNER AND ORDER WE PROVE THE INFALLIBILITY OF THE CHVRCH 1. I Say in what manner and order For we having already proved the Infallibility of the Church inremaines only now to declare how we can do it without falling into a Circle proving the Scripture by the Church and the Church by the Scripture which you object without end though if you be a man of any solid learning it is impossible you could be ignorant of the Answer which Catholike Writers giue to this common objectiō We grant that with different sorts of persons we must proceed in a different way If one belieue not the Church or Notes proprietyes and prerogatives belonging to Her and yet belieue Scripture to be the Word of God to such a man the Church may be proved by Scripture as contrarily to him who believes the Infallibility of the Church it may be demonstrated in vertue of Her Authority what Scripture is Canonicall and what is the true sense therof by informing him what Canon the Church receyves and what Interpretation she gives Thus in regard Protestants deny the Infallibility of the Church but pretend to belieue Scripture to be the Word of God to them we proue by Scripture the perpetuall Existence Vnity Authority Sanctity Propagation efficacy Infallibility and other Propertyes of the Church But speaking per se and ex natura rei the Church is proved independently of Scripture which we receyue from the Church as you grant which was in Being before the Scripture as all must yield and yet at that tyme there wanted not meanes to find the Church For none could haue believed the Scripture to be Infallible vnless first they believed the Writers to be infallible and many were converted to the true Church before they could belieue the Scripture as not extant at that tyme. So that all must grant that there be Meanes and Arguments wherby some men may gaine such credit as others may and ought vnder payne of damnation to belieue that they are Persons to be accepted as Messengers of God and Teachers of Divine Doctrine 2. Thus Moyses the Prophets our Saviour Christ the Apostles all Apostolicall men by whom God hath converted Nations to the true Faith and knowledg of Him did proue themselves true Preachers by many effectuall and most certaine inducements independently of the Old or New Testament yea S. Irenaeus relates as you expressly grant that some Nations were made Christians without any knowledg of the Scripture As therfore our Lord and Saviour Christ his Aposties and all they who afterward converted the world to Christian Religion proved themselves to be sent by God being verifyed of them He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me by Miracles Sanctity of life Efficacy of Doctrine admirable repentance of sinners Chang of manners Conversion of all sorts of Persons of all Countryes through the whole world and this to a Faith Profession and Religion that proposes many Points as necessary to be believed aboue and seemingly contrary to humane Reason and against mens naturall inclinations togeather with the consideration of the constancy of Martyrs Abnegation of Confessours Purity of Uirgins Fortitude even of the youngest Age and weaker sexe and other admirable conspicuous Notes and strong inforcements to gaine an absolute and vndoubted assent to whatsoever they should propose in Matters concerning Faith and Religion So the Church of God by the like still continued Arguments and Notes of many great and manifest Miracles Sanctity Sufferings Uictory over all sorts of enemyes Conversion of Infidels all which Notes are dayly more and more conspicuous and convincing and shall be encreasing the longer the world shall last and it seemes God in his wisdome and Goodness hath blessed vs very particularly since the appearing of Luther and other moderne Heretikes for the greater confusion of them and glory of his Church and the same I say of the name Catholique which is continually more verifyed by accession of new Countreyes as also that of succession of Bishops from the Apostles particularly in the Sea of Rome Vnity Stability Perpetuity The Church I say by these and the like evident Arguments proves that she deserves credit as the first Doctours and Preachers did and consequently that her Doctrine and Definitions in Matters concerning Faith are certainly true And we may with all truth avouch that whosoever either denyes these Notes of Miracles and the rest to be found in the Catholique Roman Church or despises them as insufficient opens an inevitable way for Jewes Turks Gentils and all enemyes of Christian Religion to deny the truth therof which to them must be proved by such Arguments as are evidently found in the Roman Church and in no other Congregation Moreover as the Apostles and Apostolicall men were not believed to be Infallible because they wrote Scripture but contrarily their Writings or Scriptures are believed to be infallibly true because the Writers were preendued with Infallibility which Infallibility was proved by Miracles and other Arguments so the Church is believed infallible in force of the same Arguments abstracting from any proofe drawen from Scripture wherby we are uery sure not to run in a
pretended Bishop I meane for the consequence which he makes that if Episcopacie be Juris Divini it is damnable to impugne it and with Molin agrees Dr. Taylor of Episcopacy teaching § 46. That to separate from the Bishop makes a man at least a Schismatike and § 47. That it is also Heresy And in his Liberty of Prophesying Epist Dedic Pag 32.33 having sayd that the Lutheran Churches the Zuinglians and the Calvinists reject Episcopacy he adds which the Primitive Church would haue made no doubt to haue called Heresy More of this and of the Notes of the Church may be seene in Charity Maintayned Part 1. Chap 9. this not being a place to treat at large of these matters It is sufficient for our present purpose to demonstrate that we are no way guilty of walking in a Circle Only it will be necessary to note here two Points 5. First That the Arguments of credibility fall primarily vpon the Church not vpon Scripture which confirmes what I sayd that the Apostles were not Infallible because they wrote but their writings deserue credit because the writers were Infallible Thus in the Old Law Moyses gained authority by working Miracles and by other Arguments of credibility wherby the people accepted him as a Man sent by God to declare his word and will and in such manner as they were sure to belieue God by giving credit to Moyses They believed our Lord and Moyses his servant Exod 14.31 and 19.9 and ther vpon they belieâ—ed the Scripture which he wrote and proposed as the Infallible word of God and by it other particulars even concerning Moyses himself In the New Law the Apostles proved and settled the Authority of their Persons before their writings could be prudently receaved as Diuine or the Word of God The Reason therof is because the Motives or Arguments of credibility immediatly make that credible of which they are effects which immediatly manifest their cause Now the Motives to embrace Religion agree immediatly to the Church or Persons and not to writings and so Marc Vlt it is sayd These signes shall follow those who belieue And therfore though there were no Scriptures if the Church did still remaine these motives would also remaine for example Sanctity of life Miracles conversion of Nations Martirdomes Victory over all enemyes the name Catholique c Which could not agree to Scripture though we did falsely suppose that it did remayne and the Church perish For no Writing is capable of Sanctity of life Succession of Bishops c yea the Scripture can haue no efficacy vnless it be first believed to be the word of God and it must be beholding to the Church for such a Testimony and therfor whatsoever perfections or attributes may seeme to belong immediatly to the Scripture must depend on the Church as the Scripture itself doth in order to our believing it to be the word of God But contrarily the Perfections or priviledges of the Church are independent of Scripture as the Church itself is which was before Scripture And here it is also to be considered that we haue no absolute certainty that the Apostles ever wrought any particular Miracle to proue immediatly that Scripture is the word of God but we are sure they did it mediatè by gaining Authority to their Persons and then to their writings And thus you say in your Answer to the Direction N. 43. That the Bible hath bene confirmed with those Miracles which were wrought by our Saviour and the Apostles But now if we be obliged to believe the Scripture in all things by reason of Arguments which bind vs to belieue it to be the word of God we must also be obliged to belieue the Church in whatsoever she proposes as Divine Verityes since the Arguments and Reasons of credibility do more immediatly proue the true Church than they proue Scripture 6. The second thing to be observed is That when we are obliged to receave some Persons as messengers of God appointed and assisted by him to deliver Divine Truths as the Apostles were we are bound to belieue them in all things which they propound for such Truths For as I haue often sayd if they might erre in some things of this nature we could not belieue theÌ„ in any other thing for their sole Authority as all coÌ„fess of Scripture that being once delivered by meÌ„ of the forsayd Authority as the word of God it must be receyved as vniversally true in all and every least passage though the Apostles did not confirme by seve rall Miracles the matter of every particular Text and yet every one is an object of Faith nor of every particular Truth which they spoke but it was sufficient that people did and were obliged to receaue them as men who by commission from God taught the true way to eternall Happynes and therfore were to be credited in all particulars which they did propose 7. Out of this true Ground I inferr That it cannot be sayed without injury to Gods Church to the Apostles and God himself that when men of our Church worke Miracles and produce other Reasons to proue that they preach the true Faith and Religion to gentils Jewes Turks or Heritikes those Miracles are not sufficient Proofes of all that which our Church propounds as Divine Truth but of some particular Points for example not of Purgatory Prayer to Saints Reall Presence c. but of such Christian verityes as Protestants belieue with vs. This cannot be sayd For it is evident that the same might haue bene objected against the Apostles to wit that God intended to proue by their Miracles only some verityes believed by Jewes or Heretikes and not every one of the particular Mysteryes of Christian Religion Neither can it be sayd that the Preachers of our Catholique Church when they convert Nations doe worke Miracles to bring them to I know not what Faith in generall or in abstracto or an Idea Platonica but to the Catholique Roman Religion which if it were false God in his Goodness could never permitt so many and great Miracles to be wrought and other so evident Arguments of credibility to be produced that people must be obliged to receiue such Preachers as Teachers of the true way to Heaven as he could not permit the Apostles to worke Miracles intending that they should be trusted in some not in all Points For this generall Reason taken from Gods Goodness and providence is the same in all who bring the like Arguments of Credibility as our Church never wants Arguments like to those whereby the Apostles made good their Authority Besides if the sayd Objection were of force men de facto can haue no certainty that Scripture is the word of God for all Points contayned therin because it will be sayd that although Miracles were wrought to proue that the Bible is the word of God they might be vnderstood not to confirme every passage or Text but only some Truths contayned therin And likewise according to
any other worldly hope I betray my selfe to any errour contrary to any Divine revealed truth that errour may be justly stiled a sin and consequently of it self to such a one damnable And if he dy without Contrition this errour in it selfe damnable will be likewise so vnto him I haue set downe your words at large that Protestants may learne by them how to examine their conscience about what care they vse to find the true Church ād Religion which imports them no less then the eternall salvation or Damnation of their soules And that every one may clearly see that you do not only grant more than once the errours of Protestants to be in themselves damnable but also a reason for it namely because all errours in Faith are contrary to some Divine Revelation which reason is common to Protestants to the Church of England and to all who erre in matters of Faith And then with what sincerity could you affirme that whosoever holds the doctrine of the Church of England and lives according to it vndoubtedly he shall be saved Can one who is in an errour damnable of itselfe be vndoubtedly saved without repentance Haue we not heard you say To him who dyed without contrition the errour in itselfe damnable will be likewise so vnto him Do you not say Pag 138. N. 23. For ought I know all Protestants and all that haue sense must grant that all errours are alike damnable if the manner of propounding the contrary Truths be not different Therfore you must grant that as errours against Fundamentall Truths sufficiently propounded are damnable so also errours against not Fundamentall Truths are damnable if both be equally proposed How then are the Errours of all Protestants and of the Church of England in particular not damnable 51. Thus we haue sufficiently confuted your first Memorandum and shewed that the separation of Protestants was causeless both in reality and ad hominem or according to the principles and professions of Protestants themselves In reality because there can never be just reason to separate from the Church of God which therfore must be infallible and free from all corruptions and errours Ad hominem because according to the principles of Protestants errours not Fundamentall being not destructiue of salvation cannot yield sufficient cause of separation nor free any from yielding obedience even in the supposed vnfundamentall errours as they confess ours to be and if somtyme Protestants say the contrary at other tymes they contradict themselves which serves only for their greater condemnation in leaving the communion of all Christian Churches vpon vncertaintyes in which themselves do waver somtyme affirming somtyme denying And vpon this very ground of vncertainty I go forward to proue more and more that their separation was causlesse 52. For Pag 308. N. 108. you do not disallow the saying of Cha Ma Part 1. Pag 207. In cases of vncertainty we are not to leave our Superiour nor cast of his obedience nor publikly oppose his decrees And Hooker cited by you in your Pag 310. 311. N. 110. teaches two things to our present purpose The one That an Argument necessary and demonstratiue is such as being proposed to any man and vnderstood the mynd cannot chuse but inwardly assent The other that in case of probability only or vncertainty Lawes established are to be obeyed and men are bound not to obserue those Lawes which they are perswaded to be against the law of God but for the tyme to suspend their perswasions to the contrary and that in otherwise doing they offend against God by troubling the Church This ground being layd I subsume besides what hath now been sayd of the variousness ād vncertainty of Protestants about Points not Fundamentall Protestants cannot possibly haue evidence or certainty against Catholiks therfore they offended against God by dividing theselves from vs and troubling the peace of all Churches The subsumption or Minor I proue diverse wayes abstaining from examination of particular Controversyes and 53. First in this manner An Argument necessary and Demonstratiue is such as being proposed to any man and vnderstood the mynd cannot chuse but inwardly assent saith Hooker If therfore the arguments of Protestants against vs were necessary and demonstratiue learned Catholiks could not chuse but inwardly assent and vnless they were extreme wicked dissemblers against their conscience would also publikly professe And yet we see that all Catholiks in all Ages and places learned holy wise and such as God vsed for instruments in working many great and evident Miracles and in converting nations to the Faith of Christ all these I say did and do and ever will dissent from the Arguments and conclusions of Protestants therfore it is cleare that their reasons against vs are not necessary nor demonstratiue and so according to Hooker the Lawes established were to be obeyed and Protestants were bound to suspend their perswasions to the contrary Truly this is an Argument which must convince any man of a mynd not perverse and resolved to persever in his errour 54. Secondly I prove that they cannot produce against vs any necessary or demonstratiue Argument in regard of the Antiquity of our doctrine confessed even by our Adversaryes as may be seene in Brierley P. 129. seqq Edition Ann. 1608. now how could these doctrines haue passed the search and examine of so many learned men and watchfull Prelats for the space of so many ages if any necessary or demonstratiue argument to which men cannot but assent could haue been produced against them 55. Thirdly Learned Protestants confess that the Fathers hold with vs against them in many and chiefest Points of Doctrine controverted in these dayes as we haue seene hertofore which could not happen if the Arguments of Protestants against the Fathers and vs were necessary and demonstratiue 56. Fourthly In all our chiefest differences diverse most learned Protestants agree with vs against their pretended Brethren as we haue also demonstrated hertofore Now these men being learned could not but see and assent to necessary and demonstratiue Arguments if any could haue been alledged against vs and being Adversaryes would not haue fayld to make vse of them nor would they haue ever left their Brethren and joyned with vs if evidence of truth and reason had not forced them therto or if they could haue espyed any even probability in the grounds and Doctrines of their Brethren wherby it appeares that the tenets of Protestants are so farr from being evident or their Arguments necessary and demonstrative that they are not so much as probable Who I pray will belieue that you could haue any necessary demonstratiue Arguments for your so many changes of Religion and for your ending in Socinianisme which you never durst openly profess and yet men are not wont to be ashamed of truths proved by necessary and demonstratiue Reasons One demonstration or evidence cannot be contrary to another and yet no doubt but you pretended evidence for all your alterations to contrary
if it should containe more And yet even in this one point there could be agreement only in words among Protestants themselves or with vs. For in the sense I haue shewed elswere that Protestants disagree about Faith or what to belieue signifies and about the Attributes and perfections of the Deity and his Title of a Rewarder and about our Saviour Christ whether he be true God Whether he be to be adored Whether to be invoked Vid Volkel Lib 4. Cap 11. Whether reverence to be done to his sacred name Jesus And many other such points And then I pray what Communion could there be in a worship of God consisting only in words or in prating like parrots with infinite difference in the meaning of them and such a difference as one part holds the contrary to belieue damnable errours even in that one Point in which they must be supposed to agree as in a Forme common to all in Errours I say damnable as being repugnant to the Testimony of that God whom they pretend to worship Jewes and Turks belieue that God is and that he is a rewarder and Philosophers believed that there is a God and some of them in generall that he is a rewarder What a sight would it be to behold all these in one Church or Quire of Christians as agreeing in this generall Liturgy Of which Jewes Turks and Philosophers might say in your owne words Behold we propose a Forme of Liturgy which all sides hold to be lawfull Why then do you not joyne with vs If you answer them because they erre in other points they might reply what is that to the purpose as long as a necessity of professing those Errours is not imposed vpon you Or if it be not lawfull to communicate with men of different Faith and Religion though they do as it were abstract from that in which they differ how can Catholiks communicate with you or Protestants with one another or how can you say If you would propose a Forme of Liturgy which both sides hold lawfull and then they would not joyne with you in this Liturgy you might haue some colour then to say they renounce your Communion absolutely seing men of different faith cannot communicate togeather even in a Forme of Liturgy which both sides hold lawfull Or if they may you cannot refuse your Communion to Jewes and Turks in such a common Forme of Liturgy I therfore conclude that either you may communicate with Jewes Turkes c. or els you must confess that men of different faith cannot communicate in one Liturgy and publike worship of God whatsoever imaginary Forme be proposed and that you renounce our Communion absolutely which you deny against all Truth and your owne grounds and the common grounds of Christianity vnless you will make vp one Church of Jewes Turks Philosophers condemned Heretiks and whatsoever different Sects and therfore you cannot avoide the just imputation of Schisme 82. Morover we know you disliked diverse Points in the publike Service of the Protestants Church of England as the Mystery of the Blessed Trinity the Creed of S. Athanasius c Now I aske whether you could with a good conscience be present at the English Service or no If you say you could because your intention was carryed only to that which was good and true and not to those particulars which you did belieue to be false and errours why may not Protestants on their part be present at Masse and our publike worship of God And why do they alledg as a cause of their forsaking our externall communion in Liturgy the corruptions thereof Or why do you require a Forme of Liturgy which all sides hold lawfull if one may be present at some corrupt worship of God so that he intend to participate and communicate only in what is good And you cannot deny but that in our Liturgy there are many good and holy things out of which the ProtestaÌ„t church of EnglaÌ„d transcribed divers things into their booke of coÌ„mon prayer wherby they proue theÌ„selves true Heretiks or chusers accepting or rejecting what they please aÌ„d deceyving simple people as if there were small differeÌ„ce betwixt English Protestants and Catholiks Or how could you wickedly perswade Catholiks to go to Protestant Service which you know we belieue to containe Errours against our Faith and Religion and yet pretend that Protestants were obliged to forsake our Communion in Liturgy c. Or if they were not obliged to forsake vs how can they be excused from Schisme in doing so If you could not be present at the English Service which was the other part of my demand the reason must be because men of different Faith cannot communicate in one publike worship of God or Liturgy And the further reason of this because such a communicating or Communion were indeed a reall and practicall approbation of such a Communion and of such a Church stayned with Errours and consequently how can one Protestant communicate with an other whom they belieue to erre in points of Faith and yet thinke they are obliged not to communicate with vs Truly they cannot possibly giue any reason for this their proceeding and as I may say acception of persons the merit or demerite of the cause being the same For this Rule it is not lawfull for men of different Faith to communicate in Liturgy and publike worship of God is vniversally true and the contrary is only a ready way to breed confusion stisle all zeale overthrow Religion and is of its owne nature intrinsecè malum though there were no scandall danger of being perverted and the like as really alwayes there are Certainly if in any case a Catholike can be sayed to approue and participate with Heretikes as such it is by communion in the same Liturgy and divine offices and never more than when it happens to be with such Heretiks as did purposely reject the Liturgy of Catholiks as superstitions and corrupted and framed an other as proper to themselves which happened in England in direct opposition to our Liturgy to which proceeding of theirs hee in fact consents and gives approbation who refuseth not to be present at their Service so opposite â—o our Liturgy Whosoever considers the zeale of all Antiquity in abhorring the least shaddow of communion with Heretiks will haue just cause to lament the coldnesse of them who seeke by distinctions and speculations to induce a pernicious participation of justice with Iniquity a society between light and darkness an agreement with â—hrist and Belial a participation of the faithfull with the infidell as we haue heard our adversaryes confess every Errour against a Divine Truth sufficiently propounded to be Infidelity Holy Scripture Num 16.26 speaking of Core Dathan and Abiron saith Depart from the tabernacles of the impious men and touch you not those things which pertaine to them least you be enwrapped in their sin What then shall we say of those who will not depart I say not from the tabernacles
esse novit Uerum est enim quod illa falsa sint No man can be sayd to know false things except by knowing they are false c But an errour is sinfull because he gives a culpable cause therof either by not vising diligence to find the truth in a matter of highest moment which is that vnum necessarium that one necessary Thing of which our saviour spoke and to which all other things are to be referred and therfore requires our chiefest and vtmost endeavour and all that may any way put it in hazard ought instantly to strike vs with a most deepe fright and move vs to fly from it tanquam a facie colubri as from the face of a serpent oâ— by reason of pride confidence in his owne witt or judgment or the like sinfull cause which must be knowne and voluntary in order to such an errour and ignorance otherwise they could not be sinfull as we haue seene out of your owne words that we cannot be obliged to that which is not in our power Now if the cause of such errour be sinfull and voluntary to say one may be pardoned of that sin without actually forsaking it is to say A sin may be repented and forgiven while one is actually persisting in the committing of it and seing to pardon a sin is to destroy it and to be committing it is to conserue it in being sin should be destroyed and conserved be and not be at the same tyme which is a manifest contradiction 20. But you say The sinner may haue Repentance of all sins knowne and vnknowne I answer You are in a great errour or inconsideration both concerning the nature of sin and of Repentance in supposing that either can sin be committed without all knowledge or that true Repentance can extend it self to a sin of which one is in Act of voluntary committing it For how doth he effactually detest and with his whole hart repent himselfe of it if he be yet voluntarily committing it And as for the other part All sin is voluntary and necessarily presupposes some kind of knowledge therof to proceede in the vnderstanding without which it were not voluntary nor vincible nor culpable but necessary and invincible or no sin at all Which being true in all sin much more must it be so in deadly and damnable sins as you affirme errours against Faith to be which require full knowledge and deliberation when they are first committed And this is particularly true in the subject of which we speake in regard that our good God whose will is that all should be saved and come to the knowledge of Truth never failes to be frequently preventing illuminating moving and strongly inciting the soules of men to embrace the true Faith Religion and church within which he hath confined salvation aÌ„d is continually speaking so lowd as he may be clearly heard aÌ„d so stroÌ„gly as every one must confess himselfe guilty if he do not obey aÌ„d hearkeÌ„ to a voyce so sweet forcible and Divine And therfore your Contrition of all sins knowne and vnknowne comes to be a meere sixion or illusion your Repentance of sins which one is actually committing to be a plaine contradiction and both of them to containe a most pernicious Doctrine To comprise all this matter in few words When you speake of sins not knowne if the ignorance be invincible it is no sin if vincible and culpable it doth not excuse from sin the Errour which proceeds from it and therfore cannot be forgiven as long as one is committing it no more than other sins against Gods Commandements for example hatred desire of revenge c. And how can want of knowledge excuse one who either sins by that very want of knowledge or that want of knowledge is the effect of his sin that is of culpable neglect to learne as a tâ—e want is not excused from the rot by ignorance proceeding from his voluntary neglect to study 21. Perhaps some may say I haue proved sufficiently that no Protestant or other Sectary can haue true Contrition of sins wholy vnknowne or when it is committing them or while he hath tyme to amend them neglects to doe it But the difficulty may seeme to remaine what is to be sayd of a Protestant at the point of death if he come to be particularly contrite of his former culpable negligence to seeke the true Religion but now hath no tyme to discusse particular Controversyes with a firme resolution to embrace that Faith which if God spare him life he shall by his Divine Assistance find to be true To this doubt I 22. Answer First That such a one cannot according to your Doctrine hope for Salvation which is never granted without true Repentance and this cannot be had at that moment of death when there is no tyme to roote out all vicious Habits which cannot be supposed to be few in persons who for worldly respects haue not cared to seeke out the true Religion on which every Christian believes the salvation of his soule to depend Secondly This case or supposition yields as much as Charity Maintayned intended to proue That a formall Protestant cannot be saved if he persist in Protestantisme For he who is hartily sory that he hath neglected to seeke the true Faith Religion and Church and conceives an obligation to haue vsed more diligence therin doth clearly doubt whether the Protestant Religion be true and theâ—by is no more a Protestant than he can be a Christian who doubts whether Christian Religion be true it being a true Axiome in Divinity dubius in side est infidelis He who doubts of his Faith is an infidell The reason is because Christian Divine Faith is infallible and certainly true and consequently cannot consist with any deliberate or voluntary doubt neither doth Christian Faith belieue any Article of Faith with greater certainty than that itselfe is certaine Whosoever therfore doubts whether Protestants Faith and Religion be true ceases to be a Protestant or to belieue Protestant Religion to be true with that firmnes of Faith which is required for Salvation And although such a pertinent sinner be not a Catholike by the actuall beliefe of those Points conceruing which he hath no tyme to be particularly instructed yet he is really and actually a Catholike by believing in voto or desire whatsoever the Church teaches and those errours of his which before were culpable only by reason of some culpable cause or neglect to seeke the truth while he had tyme to doe it after true and effectuall Contrition of such a sinfull cause remaine errours materially only and no sins till it be in his power to examine and reverse them just as vertuous persons in the true Church may by invincible ignorance hold some errour against Faith till they be better instructed And so the finall Conclusion will be that he who effectually repents his sin committed in omitting culpably to seeke the true Church and hath no possible meanes to examine matters
or contradictory and destructiue of itselfe by holding a Repentance joyned with the actuall committing that sin for which one repents And therfore that Protestants cannot hope to be saved though they should dy with your Repentance and consequently that not only Protestancy vnrepented but even repented in your manner is destructiue of salvation which is more than hitherto hath bene saied and shewes what a choise champion you are for Protestants and howe vnadvised or partiall they are who so excessively cry vp your Booke CHAP IX THE ANSWER TO THE PREFACE OF CHARITY MAINTAYNED IS EXAMINED 1. HAving in the precedent Chapters endeavoured to draw into Heads the most vniversall and substantiall Points handled in Mr. Chilling worths Booke either particular to him or common to Protestants it remaynes only that according to the method held by Charity Maintayned in his Answer to Dr. Potter we touch some particulars which perhaps did not necessarily or naturally offer themselves in those generall Heads and yet must not be omitted by me if it were but for taking away all suspicion or aspersion that any thing hath beene purposely dissembled as impossible to be answered though it be very true that all difficultyes of moment haue been considered and examined in the former Chapters And therfore it ought not to be expected and much less exacted that I spend much tyme in this particular Survey of every parcell of His Booke being sufficient that the Reader be referred to those severall places wherin his Sophismes are discovered his reasons confuted Objections answered forquēt contradictions layed open I will answere his Chapter in order as they lye having first begun with his answer to the Preface of C M. And so now I begin to address my speech to him 2. In your Pag 6. N. 2. you accuse Charity Maintayned as perverting the state of the Question which say you was not whether Papists and Protestants can be saved in their severall professions but whether we may without vncharitableness affirme that Protestancy vnrepented destroyes salvation But this is a difference without any reall disparity For Charity Mistaken and Catholikes believing in their conscience that the Religion which they profess is true and the contrary false Dr. Potter must not take it ill af Catholiks belieue they may be saved in that Religion for which they suffer as Charity Maintayned saieth Part. 1. Pag 27. N. 1. and Part. 1. Pag. 36. N. 17. this I say being supposed it followes that we must either belieue Protestancy vnrepented to destroy salvation or els that both Catholikes and Protestants may be saved in their severall professions For if this last were once granted then Protestants might be saved though it were proved that our Religion were true And therfore all the proofes of Charity Mistaken must be resolved into this Question whether both Catholiks and Protestants can be saved Which answer is of it selfe so obvious that yourselfe did perceiue it and therfore you say to Charity Maintayned Neither may it be sayd that your Question here and myne are in effect the same seing it may be true that you and we cannot both be saved And yet as true That without vncharitableness you cannot pronounce vs damned As though Iewes and Christians cannot both be saved yet a Iew cannot justly and therfore not charitably pronounce a Christian damned Which is a very strange speech as if you would haue Catholikes not belieue Catholique Religion to be true which if they belieue it followes that Protestants cannot be saved vnless both Catholikes and Protestants may be saved and therfore you had no reason to say that the Question was not Whether both Catholikes and Protestants may be saved For this cause Charity Mistaken gives this very title to his sixt Chapter That both Catholikes and Protestants cannot possibly be accompted of one and the same Religion Faith and Church And the Title of his tenth and last Chapter is A recapitulation of the whole discourse marke of the whole discourse wherin it followes vpon the confession of both partyas that the Catholikes and the Protestants are not both of them saveable in their sever all Religions Thus to turne your owne example directly against you supposing Iewes and Christians cannot both be saved a Christian who believes Christian Religion to be true may justly and charitably pronounce a Jew damned In like manner Charity Mistaken Chap 2. Pag 15. saith expressly That as Catholikes so long as they belieue their Religion to be true must belieue Protestancy vnrepented to destroy salvation so saith he the same must they also belieue of vs if indeed they belieue their owne Religion to be true Christian Religion of which Christ himselfe pronounced Qui non crediderit condemnabitur And why must Protestants say of vs as we say of them but because as I alledged out of the Title of his last Chapter Catholikes and Protestants are not both of them saveable in their severall Religions And therfore the whole discourse of Charity Mistaken was not so much to proue in particular the truth of Catholike Religion and falshood of Protestantisme as that supposing Catholike Religion be true it is no vncharitableness to belieue and professe that Protestants cannot be saved without Repentance and that Protestants must say the same of vs if their Religion were true and so all the Question is resolved finally and formally into this Whether both Catholikes and Protestants can be saved in their severall Professions as Charity Maintayned affirmed it to be 3. After this N. 3. you endeavour to proue out of Dr. Potter that he answered directly to that Question which Charity Maintayned proposed because the Doctor teacheth that men of different Religions may be saved by repentance of all their sins of ignorance But by your leaue the Question is whether men of different Religions can be saved if they liue and dye in that difference without repentance For he who repents his errour or the culpable cause therof ceases to be formally of that Religion of which he was before such his repentance in regard that he who doubts in his Faith is an infidell in respect of that Faith as I declared aboue and even yourselfe say Pag 25. N. 29. He that would Question whether knowing a thing and doubting of it may stand togeather deserves without Question no other Answer but laughter Your numbers 5.6.7 containe nothing not answered already 4. In answer to your N. 8. I say as hertofore that Potter somtymes seemes to affirme that it is damnable to disbelieue any Point sufficiently proposed as revealed by God But yet that both he and other Protestants do and must contradict that their affirmation in diverse respects as I proved aboue at large and therfore whatsoever he seemes to say in one place being contradicted by himselfe in another is to be reputed as never sayd in order to any other effect except this only that no regard is to be had what he saith either in the one or the other of those
and yet not to haue beene inspired by God himselfe against such men there were no disputing out of the Bible In which words you confess that one cannot gather that a writing is inspired by God even though he did belieue that the contents therof were all true You make him also contradict yourselfe who resolue the beliefe of Scripture into the tradition of all Churches aÌ„d C Ma specifies not the present Church but saith oÌ„ly that Hooker acknowledged that we belieue Scripture for the Authority of the Church He must also contradict himselfe who I suppose liking not the Puritans privat spirit and proving that it is not the word of God which doth or possibly can assure vs as may be seene in Charity Maintayned Pag 42. N. 7. citing the place of Hooker leaves nothing for our motiue to belieue it except the Church Yet no man denyes but what we first belieue for the Authority of the Church may afterward be illustrated and confirmed by Reason as Hooker saith The former inducement the Authority of Gods Church prevailing somwhat with vs before doth now much more prevaile when the very thing hath ministred farther reason And yourselfe in this Chapter N. 47. explicate some words of Potter in this very sense which now I haue declared And therfore consider whether you do well in relating Mookers words to leaue out these words which are immediatly joyned to those which you cite If I belieue the Gospell yet is reason of singular vse for that it confirmeth me in this my beliefe the more Is this to say that naturall reason as it is distinguished from tradition or Authority of the Church in which sense we now speake of it is the last thing into which our beliefe of Scripture is resolved seing such a confirmation by Reason comes after we haue believed You say that when Hooker saith When we know the whole Church of God hath that oâ—inion of the Scripture c the Church he speakes of seenes to be that particular Church wherin a man is bredd where I put you in mynd of what you sayd in another place that A Church signifyes a particular Church and The Church as Hooker speakes signifyes the vniversall How then do you say That by The Church he signifies a particular Church Or how is the Distinction of A and The Church such as you would haue men belieue But this I let passe and aske you what finally you will haue Hookers opinion to be concerning the meanes for which we belieue with certainty Scripture to be the word of God The private Spirit You know he was an Anti-Calvinist and the private spirit could not sute with his genius Naturall Reason That is evidently against reason as we haue shewed and you grant And when he speakes most of reason he speakes of infidells or Atheists calling in question the authority of Scripture who may be perswaded by Sanctity of Christian doctrine c So there remaines only the Authority of the Church if you will haue him to say anything Dr Covell in his defence of Hookers Bookes Art 4. Pag 31. saith clearly Doubtless it is a tolerable Ovinion in the Church of Rome if they goe no further as some of them do not he should haue sayd as none of them doe to affirme that the scriptures are holy and divine in themselves but so esteemed by vs for the Authority of the Church These words of Covell were cited by Cha Ma N. 26. but it seemes you would take no notice of them and who could better vnderstand Hookers mynd than this his Defendant By the way we may obserue how hard it is to agree about the sense of holy Scripture which is more sublime than humane Writings if we cannot agree about the meaning of men 2. And by this occasion I must turne backe to your N. 11. where you quarrel at some words of Charity Maintayned and giue them a meaning clearly contrary to his sense and words You speake thus You in saying here that scripture alone cannot be Iudge imply that it may bo called in some sense a Iudge though not abone yet to speake propâ—â—ly as men should speake when they write of Controversyes in Religion the scripture is not a Iudge of CoÌ„troversyes but a rule only aÌ„d the only rule for Christians to iudge theÌ„ by But in this imputation you haue no reason at all to interpret Charity Maintayned as you doe For He in saying Scripture alone cannot be judge in Controversyes tooke only the contradictory of that which even in this place you affirme Protestants to belieue Scripture alone is the judge of Controversyes and therfore it was necessary for Him to declare his mynd by the contradictory proposition that Scripture alone is not the judge of Controversyes which is very true though iâ— be not a judge of Controversyes either by itselfe alone or in any other sense and you know he doth expressly and purposely and largely proue that it is against the nature of any Writing whatsoever to be a Judge and therfore when you say men should speake properly when they write of Controversyes in Religion and yet confess that Protestants have called Scripture the. Judge of Controversyes and that to speake properly the Scripture is not a Judge of Controversyes you taxe Protestants only and cannot so much as touch Charity Maintaynâ— 3. Here also I may speake a word to your N. 15. as belonging to interpretation You say To execute the letter of the Law according to rigour would be many tymes vnjust and therfore there is need of a Iudge to moderate it wherof in Religion there is no vse at all I pray you would it not be many tymes vnjust to execute the letter of the Scripture taken without a true and moderate interpretation And for this very caÌ„use there is great vse of a Judge and Authenticall interpreter otherwise some miscreant might murder his mother and brother vpon some mistaken Text of Scripture that idolaters were to be taken out of the world subjects might rebell no warr would be judged lawfull no oathes to be taken in any case c And here I willingly take what you N. 17. giue me that in Civill Controversyes every honest vnderstanding man is sit to be a Iudge but in Religion none but he that is infallible This I take and inferr that you wholy enervate the vulgar Argument of Protestants that Judges are to be obeyed though they be not infallible and therfore that we cannot inferr the Church to be infallible because we are commanded to heare Her not considering this difference which here your selfe giue betweene a Judge in Civill Controversyes and a Judge in Religion wherin such a Iudge is required whom we should be obliged to belâ—â—ue to haue judged right Which are your owne words wheras in Civill matters we are bound to obey the sentence of the Iudge or not to resist it but not always to belieue it â—ust which are also your words 4. Neither will I omitt
Tradition Heere yourselfe expressly distinguish those who tooke their direction only from Scripture from others who tooke it from the Writings of the Fathers and the Decrees of Councells c. The truth is you vndertooke to defend Potter and Protestants only to haue the occasion of venting Socinianisme and covertly overthrowing Protestantisme and vpon grounds which indeed overthrow all Religion You say Let me tell you the difference between them especially in comparison of your Church and Religion is not the difference between good and bad but between good and better Answer in matters of Faith of two disagreeing the one must be in an errour against Divine Testimony and the other in the right I hope you will not say that the difference betweene an Assent of Faith and an errour against Faith is not between good and bad but between good and better as if errour against Faith were good but not so good as Faith Now those different capitall Principles of which you spoke cānot chuse but produce different and opposite conclusions and Doctrines of which one must be an errour 24. In your N. 83.84.85.86.87.89.90.91.92.93.94.95.96 you spend many words with much vnnecessary fervour against the answers which Ch. Ma. gives to two similitudes which D. Potter brings to excuse Protestants from the guilt of Schisme which similitudes you alledge in a cursiffe letter but add words of importance which the Doctour hath not His words faithfully alledged by Ch Ma. P. 194. N. 30 taken out of the Doctours P 81. 82. are these If a monastery should reforme it selfe and should reduce into practice ancient good discipline when others would not in this case could it in reason be charged with Schisme from others or with Apostasie from its rule and order Or as in a Society of men vniversally injected with soxie disease they that should free themselves from the common disease could not be therfor sayd to separate from the Society so neither can the Reformed Churches be truly accused for making a Schisme from the Church seing all they did was to reforme themselves You say this argument is pressing and vnanswerable But Examples and similitudes are commonly sayed rather to illustrate then demonstrate and are often more captious then solid and convincing You haue no reason to accuse Ch Ma for perverting them for he first set downe the very words of Potter and then sets downe the case with application to our present purpose never affirming that the Doctour sets it downe in the manner and in those words but contrarily shewing that it should be so set downe which appeares by his express words N. 31. Before you make your finall resolution heare a word of advice And N. 32. Let me set before you these considerations All which words in both these places declare manifestly that Ch Ma did not pretend to set downe verbatim the Doctours case but to signify what he ought to haue considered and set downe and what de facto past in the division of Luther from the Church And lastly he shewes that the case being set downe as it ought to haue been made against the Doctour in favour of his adversary That all this is true will appeare by reading the discourse of Ch Ma N. 31.32.33.34 25. And it was easy for Ch. Ma. to retort the similitudes out of these grounds which he had proved That there is a most strict divine command not to forsake the communion of Gods Church Dr. Potter Pag 76. sayes Whosoever professeth himselfe to forsake the communion of any one member of the Body of Christ must confesse himselfe consequently to forsake the whole and therfor her the Roman Churches communion we forsake not no more then the Body of Christ And that externall communion is essentiall to make men members of the same Church which he Ch. Ma. shewes Pag 155. N. 5 and I haue proved heretofore For out of these two grounds it followes That it is de Jure Divino not to forsake the communion of the Church which according to Dr. Potter were to forsake the body of Christ and that to forsake the externall communion which is essentiall to the Church is to forsake the communion of the Church Now the similitudes of the Doctor to be of any force must suppose that ther is no divine command to remaine in that Monastery or company of those infected persons or else that to leaue their externall communion were not to leaue them and so in one word the parity must be absolutely denyed seing it is supposed that ther is no divine precept for remayning in that Monastery or Hospitall of sick people or else that to remaine in their company were not essentiall to be a member of such communities and therfor you say very irreligiously N. 84. That as it is possible to forsake other Societies that is their externall communion so also it may be Lawfull to forsake the communion of the Church for her pretended faults and corruptions But let vs see what you can object and I must here againe entreate the Reader to read Ch Ma. and not take his answers not only at a second but at an adversaries hand For here you practice an art first to divide the Reasons of Ch. Ma. and then to set vpon every single one a parte wheras there is such a connexion between his reasons that one receaves light and strength from another It seemes you haue a minde to cavill when you would seeme to make a difference between one Monasterie compared with other Monasteries of the same order and one or some few persons compared with the one Monasterie in which they liue Wheras you cannot but judge that there is the selfsame proportion and that the reason which may excuse or accuse in the one may doe the like in the other or rather indeed it is but one and the selfe same case for as much as belongs to our present purpose 26. You N. 85. in stead of āswering the case as C. Ma. puts it professe to alter it and to put it not just as Ch. Ma. would haue it Well even taking the case as you put it I say that if there were as ther is in our case a divine command not to part from such a community those observances which you suppose to be obliging would cease to oblige if they could not be kept without forsaking such a community yea though they did still oblige it were not Lawfull to leaue that community as I declared heretofore in case of minoris mali and perplexity But indeed Ch. Ma. speakes not of observances the omitting wherof did import sinne but in express termes of a case wherin a Monastery did confessedly obserue their substantiall vowes and all principiall Statutes or constitutions of the order though withsome neglect of lesser Monasticall Observances Neither is the streame of Casuists against Ch. Ma. in this nor S. Paul whome you cite while he sayes that we may not doe the least evill that we may doe the greatest good Seing in
doth not absolutly excuse but sayes How they shall be punished in the last day of judgment for this errour of their false opinion none but the judge himselfe can know Qualiter pro hoc ipso falsae opinionis errore in die Judicij puniendi sunt nullus potest scire nisi Judex as Potter cites him in the margent Which wordes if one take in rigour suppose they are to be punished and that they haue sinned but that none can tell how or how far or how much their ignorance might lessen their punishment Your saying to Ch Ma You yourselfe though you pronounce the leaders among the Artans formall Hereticks which words you put in a different letter as if they were his words though I finde them not in him yet confesse that Salvian was at least doubtfull that at least is your owne word whether these Arians who in simplicity followed their teachers might not be excused by ignorance And about this suspension of his you also seeme suspended for you neither approue nor condemne it Thus you not without some tincture of your Gall. For Ch Ma being only to declare Salvians minde had neither reason nor occasion to declare in this place his owne opinion how far ignorance may excuse some particular persons which he did Part 1. Cap 1. N. 3. and 5. and Part 2. Pag 102. in the Conclusion of his Booke where you will finde but very cold comfort for such as hope to be saved by ignorance 11. That which followes is more against Potter then against Ch Ma who grounds his argument vpon the expresse words of the Doctor That to confine the Church to one part and place as the Donatists did to Africa was an errour In the matter and nature of it properly Hereticall against that Article of the Creed wherein we professe to belieue the Holy Catholick Church To which Major proposition he adds this Minor But Luthers Reformation or Church if one man may be cald a Church was not vniversall but confined to that place which contained Luthers body a lesse compas then Africa Therefore his Reformation or doctrine can not be excused from formall Heresy This Deduction to me seemes no lesse then demonstratiue supposing the express grant of Dr. Potter for the Major proposition and yet you are pleased to call it a rope of Sand and an vnsyllogisticall syllogisme and say it is even cosen German to this To deny the Resurrection is properly an heresy but the preaching of the Ghospell at the beginning was not vniversall Therfore it â—â—nnot be excused from formall heresy For as he whose Reformation is but particular may yet not deny the Resurrection so may he also not deny the Churches vniversality and as the Apostles who preached the Ghospell in the beginning did belieue the Church vniversall though their preaching at the beginning was not so so Luther also might and did belieue the Church vniversall though his Reformation were but particular But good Syr how then do you defend your client the Doctour from this your argument To say the visible Church is confined to one place is properly an heresy as Potter affirmes it to be But the preaching of the Ghospell at the beginning was but in one place therfore it was formall Heresy As also from your other To deny the Resurrection is properly an Heresy c. Be pleased then to doe your Doctor the favour to reflect That considering the Predictions of the Prophets of the Amplitude Propagation and Promise of our Saviour for the stability of his Church to say that after sixteene hundred yeares it was reduced not only to that compass which contained Luthers body but that it was corrupted with many and damnable errours that is in true Divinity to a no-No-Church yea and that many chiefe Protestants expresly affirme that it wholy perished is a vast Heresy vnles you would rather call it by the name of infidelity the consideration wherof did bring some chiefe learned Protestants to renounce Christian Religion And so your argument drawen from the first preaching of the Apostles is of no force and cosen German to this To deny that divers Churches and Nations did receaue the Faith of Christ as S. Paul testifieth of the Church of Rome in particular is properly an Heresy against the expresse wordes of Scripture but at the very first preaching of the Apostles Rome and many other places did not receaue the Faith of Christ but only some of those who heard their first Sermons Therefore their first preaching was Heresy And for you to say that the Church is only vniversall de jure because it ought to be so is no lesse ridiculous then impious against the promise of our Saviour which was that she was de facto to be vniversall and not that she ought to be vniversall and perpetuall as every man ought to be vertuous and as the Donatists did not deny she ought to be vniversall as Ch. Ma. shewes N. 17. Pag. 242. of which Number you take notice for some other matter but dissemble this point which yourselfe also affirme Pag 300. N. 99. in these words The Truth is the Donatists had set vp at Rome a Bishop of their faction not with intent to make him Bishop of the whole Church but of that Church in particular And although in this you be much deceaved because the intention of the Donatists was not that which you faine for your owne purpose but vnder pretence to take care of their Brethren in that Citty though indeed that the world might account them Catholiks by communicating with the Bishop of Rome with whom to communicate was taken by the Ancient Fathers for an assured signe of being a true Catholik They had also as S. Austin de vnitate Ecclesiae C. 3. witnesseth a pretended Church in the house and territory of a Spanish Lady called Lucilla And the same Saint speaking of the conference he had with Fortunius the Donatist sayth Epist 163. Here did he first attempt to affirme that his communion was spread over the whole earth c. But because the thing was evidently false they got out of this discourse by confusion of Language Whereby neverthelesse they sufficiently declared that they did not hold that the true Church ought necessarily to be confined to one place but only by meere necessity were forced to yield that it was so in fact because their Sect which they held to be the only true Church was not spead over the whole world In which point Fortunius and the rest were more modest than he who should affirme that Luthers reformation in the very beginning was spread over the whole earth being at that time by many degrees not so far diffused as the Sect of the Donatists This is the discourse of Ch. Ma. in the sayd N. 17. whereof you thought safest to take no notice as indeed destructiue of your argument As for your objection that the greater part of the world is not Christian c. every Christian and in
Nonne Deo subjecta erit anima mea which entire submission and subjection is evidently more necessary in Faith than in Charity against which some sinnes may be veniall whereas every errour against any truth sufficiently propounded as revealed by God is a deadly sinne nor can be excused ob parvitatem materiae 50. You conclude and say to Ch. Ma. Your Corollaries drawen from it the Doctrine of S. Thomas That every errour against Faith involves opposition against Gods testimony That Protestants haue no Faith no certainty and that you haue all Faith must together with it fall to the ground Which words are either non-sense or evidently false For who ever denied not your self excepted that every errour against Faith involves an opposition against Gods testimony which is the very essence of errour against Faith that is of Heresy 51. Your N. 50.51.52 haue bene answered heretofore and are answered by this one consideration That your Faith is not raised aboue the probable motives or Arguments of Credibility which being evident your kind of Faith must be evident but our Catholique Faith is an assent aboue the saied motives and is certaine though not evident as I haue declared els where and by this meanes your imitation of the Argument of Ch Ma to proue that the pretended faith of Protestants implied not obscurity falls to the ground because we belieue with a greater certainty than is derived from the sole motives of credibility so that your Faith must haue evidence but cannot haue certainty The Faith of Protestants who pretended to be assured what Bookes be Canonicall by the private spirit must be certaine and evident and consequently not obscure and therefor Calvin Lib Institut Cap 7. Sect 2. saieth that by the spirit men may discerne true Scripture as we discerne lucem à tenebris album à nigro suaue ab amaro light from darkness white from black sweete from sower And so the Faith of Catholiques only remaines both certaine and obscure as Christian Faith ought to be 52. Your N. 53.54.55 haue bene either answered already or els containe meere sayings without any proofe That the Jewes before our Saviours tyme conserved the Scripture is no wonder since at that tyme they were the true Church and afterward it was not in their power to corrupt it at their pleasure in regard the Apostles and other converted to Christian Religion could manifestly haue convinced them as shameless falsaries But what hath this to doe with that Church which was the vniversall Church of Christ before Luther and if it be fallible and so could haue bene permitted to corrupt Scripture you can at this tyme haue no certainty of the Bible That Luther opposed the Roman Church appeares by what I sayd heretofore and is demonstrated by Ch Ma Part 1. Chap 5. N. 29. and yourself N. 73. describe the man in such manner as makes the matter credible of it self 53. You tell vs N. 56. that the Bible only is the Religion of Protestants Of this we haue saied enough heretofore Now I will only put you in minde First that this cannot agree with your Doctrine that Scripture is not a materiall object of Faith nor which men are obliged to belieue For if it only be the Religion and Faith of Protestants and yet be not a point or object of Faith which you are bound to belieue it followes that Protestants haue no Religion or Point of Faith at all Secondly We haue heard you say Pag 287. N. 82. that some Protestants tooke for the model or Idaea of their Reformation not Scripture only but also the Decrees of Councells and the Writings of the Fathers of the first fiue Ages Thirdly you say Whatsoever els they Protestants belieue besides Scripture and the plain irrefragable indubitable consequences of it well may they hold it as a matter of Opinion but as matter of Faith and Religion neither can they with coherence to their owne grounds belieue it themselves nor require the belief of it of others without most high and most Schismaticall presumption It is strang that the Approbators of your Book and other Protestants did not see a thing verie evident That in these words you declare Protestant pretended Bishops and the Church of England to haue bene guilty of most high and most Schismaticall presumption for requiring the belief of the 39. Articles some of which you belieue neither to be contained in Scripture nor to be the plain irrefragable indubitable consequences of it but to be fals and repugnant to it So that we haue reason more and more to be even amazed that such a Book could at such a tyme be published 54. Your N. 57 and the rest till your N. 72. inclusiuè haue bene answered in different occasions respectiuè Vnfortunate man Who will not compassionate your disorder of minde and pen when N. 66. you are not ashamed to say of Catholiques It is too too apparent that your Church hath got and still maintaines her authority over mens consciences by counterfeiting false stories by obtruding on the world supposititious writings by corrupting the monuments of former times and defacing out of them all which any way makes against you by warres by perfecutions by Massacres by Treasons by Rebellions in short by all manner of carnall meanes whether violent or fraudulent If Luther found the Roman Church and such as were vnited with her that is all Orthodox Christian Churches in such a state as you describe what a scandall must it needs haue bene to Jewes Turks Pagans and all the enemies of Christian Religion 55. Whosoever reads your N 73. will find that you abandon Luther and that you grant very much in favour of the Roman Church as will appeare by reading Ch Ma heere N. 32. and I obserue that you confess with Luther that in the Papacy are many good things that haue come from them to vs and then why do you alwaies deny that you receiue Scripture from vs which is one of those many good things that haue come from vs to you as Luther expressly confesses 56. In your N. 74. you involue and make things seeme obscure which are very cleare You cite Ch. Ma. as if he saied in generall certainty and prudence are certaine grounds of supernaturality which is evidently fals it being manifest that some naturall knowledg may be certaine and prudent You say also that Ch Ma makes perswasion and opinion all one And why because he saieth the Faith of Protestants is but an human perswasion or opinion as if you should haue saied when you say this or that we make this and that all one or in saying such a one studied in Oxford or Cambridg we make Oxford or Cambridg all one The truth is Ch. Ma. neither intended to make them all one or different it being sufficient for his purpose that the Faith of Protestants was not a certaine divine assent call it otherwise what you please You ask how we can assure you that our Faith is not our
N. 154. I hope you will giue vs leaue to consider whether the motiues to your Church be not impeached and opposed with compulsiues and enforcements from it so others will say of the Motiues to Christian Religion that they are impeached with contrary compulsiues from it besides the sublimity of the Misteryes themselues aboue humane Reason which is apt to doubt of whatsoever it doth not ynderstand as we feare not only bad but also vnknowne pathes and as to our eye the clearest skye if it be almost beyond our kenning seemes to be a kind of darkness Thus then the probability of Chillingworths faith being brought downe frō the highest pretended degree of probability becomes compatible with good and great probability of the contrary side as heate and cold if neither of them be in the most intense degree may stand togeather and consequently the vnderstanding may conceyue not only a possibility but a probability also and a feare that the Christian Religion is false For auoiding which wicked sequele there is no other remedy except to acknowledg Faith to be an Assent certaine and infallible aboue all probability of humane Motiues or arguments of Credibility 19. And in this occasion we may obserue that the examples vsually alleadged to proue that we can no more doubt of the Conclusion drawne from the Arguments of Credibility than a man doubts whether such an one be his father and the like doe not vrge but rather may be retorted For in such cases it is supposed that there are many good reasons for one side for example that such a man is father to such a child c. and none to the contrary But it happeneth otherwise in our case there being many and hards objections obuious to humane reason against the Mysteryes of Faith which may diminish that degree of assent which otherwise might be grounded vpon the Arguments of Credibility if they were considered alone as one could not belieue such a man to be his father if he had some very probable proofes for the contrary with the same firme perswasion as he would doe in case no such proofes did offer themselues and so as I sayd this and the like Arguments and examples may be retorted againist those who bring them and still we must conclude that we cannot belieue Christian Religion as we ought without an absolute certaine ād jnfallible Assent which will more appeare by the Reason following 20. These very Motiues of Credibility manuduce and send vs vp to an Authority which is able to transfuse greater perfection to our Assent than they themselues can giue Because they tell vs of Objects to be belieued for Diuine Reuelation and so proclaime themselves to be only Dispositions and Preparations which being supposed God affords his particular Grace for producing an Act proportionable to his Diuine Testimony as with some proportion by hearing or reading spirituall things the species are excited and God by that occasion giues inspiration for Faith Hope Charity c. aboue the naturall power of the externall words and as Experimentall knowledg by sense is a Disposition to Scientificall knowledg which yet takes not its nature essence and perfection from the senses 21. From hence it followes that men are obliged to belieue Christian Religion not in what manner soeuer but as a Doctrine deliuered and reuealed by God and therfor to be embraced aboue all that is aboue all contrary objects or objections and not to be altered vpon any occasion supposition or authority of men or Angels as S. Paule teaches vs by an impossible supposition to express the matter home Galat 1.8 Although we or an Angel from Heauen euangelize to you beside that which we haue euangelized to you be he anathema This admonition or denuntiation of S. Paule must needs suppose Christian Faith to be aboue all probability For it is euidently against reason to joyne togeather these two judgments or Assertions This doctrine is only probable and grounded only in probable and credible Arguments and yet That it is reasonable or necessary òr euen possible to assent to it in such manner as neuer to belieue the contrary though reasons seeming vpon the best examination a man can make better than the former should offer themselues against it seing it is certaine that he cannot be certaine that better reasons cannot possibly be offered For if he be certaine that better reasons for the contrary are not possible his assent is not probable but certaine Therfor since we are not to forsake Christian Religion for whatsoeuer possible motiue or Reason or Authority of Men or Angels we must giue it absolute certainty and not only probability 22. And because this kind of Argument is of greater moment than perhaps appeares at first sight I will dilate it by saying further that according to his Assertion about the probability of faith no Christian yea no man can be setled in any Religion since he must be ready to chang whensoeuer better reasons shal be presented against it neither can he be certaine that he may not sooner or later fynd some such reason For a faith only probable is a perpetuall Temptation to it selfe and we may truly say Accedens tentator dicit in the present Tense seing Probability doth not exclude some feare that the contrary may be true Nay euery consideration about Faith to such men as Chill who loue to be esteemed considering and discoursing men is more than a Temptation it is a yeelding or consent against Faith inuoluing this judgment Perhaps that which I belieue is false and the contrary true 23. Yea this vast absurdity doth not only flow from this doctrine but it is in effect acknowledged by him in express words Pag. 380. N. 72. Where he deeply taxes all Catholiques because they eyther out of idleness refuse the trouble of a scuere tryall of their Religion or out of superstition feare the euent of such a triall that they may be scrupled and staggered and disquieted by it and therfor for the most part doe it not at all or if they doe it they doe it without indifference without liberty of judgment without a resolution to leaue it if it proue apparentily false My owne experience assures me that in this imputation I doe you Catholiques no injury but it is very apparent to all men from your ranking doubting of any part of your Doctrine among mortall sinnes For from hence it followes that seing euery man must resolue he will neuer commit mortall sinne that he must neuer examine the grounds of it at all for stare he should be moued to doubt or if he doe he must resolue that no motiues be they neuer so strong shall moue him to doubt but that with his will and resolution he will vphold himselfe in affirme belief of your religion Doth not it appeare by these words that he must haue no such resolution as he reprehends in vs but must be ready to doubt or to leaue his and all Christian Religion And Pag. 326.
N. 4. he endeauours to proue that Faith cannot be absolutely certaine because if it were so any least doubting would destroy it which shewes that doubting may well consist with his kind of probable faith which is that very absurdity which we inferrd as impious against true Religion of which we must resolue neuer to doubt though per jmpossible an Apostle or Angel should moue vs therto as we haue heard out of S. Paule and yet the Authority of an Apostle or perswasion of an Angell should in all reason be preferrd before Faith if it be only probable 24. This inconstancy in Religion appeares further by what he confesses of himselfe Pag. 389. N. 7. where speaking of a command of obedience to the Roman Church he hath these words sure I am for my part that I haue done my true endeauour to find it true and am still willing to doe so but the more I seeke the further I am from findinge c. Behold how after so long tyme so much deliberation so many changes of Religion euen after the writing of his Booke he is still willing to find and embrace a Religion different and contrary to that which he professed Also P. 184. N. 90. he sayth Shew vs any way and do not say but proue it to haue come frrm Christ and his Apostles down to vs and we are ready to followit Neither do we expect Demonstration herof but such reasons as may make this more probable than the contrary Agreable to this is his professing Preface N. 2. that he had a trauellers indifferency most apt and most willing to be led by reason to any way or from it And N. 5. he professes that his constancy in Religion consisted in following that way to Heauen which for the present seemed to him the most probable A poore comfort and miserable faith only probable and of no longer continuance than for the tyme present I willingly omitt that his deeds were agreeable to his words changing first from Protestants to Catholike then from Catholike to Protestant and about againe to Catholike till at last he became neyther Precisian nor Subscriber to the 39. Articles nor confessed Socinian nor any thing vnless that mhich S. Bernard sayth of Abailardus Ep 193. Homo sibi dissimilis est totus ambiguus He is a man who disagrees euen from himselfe wholy compounded of doubts I willingly leaue out his middle words Intus Herodes for is Ioannes inwatdly a Herode outwardly a Iohn If the Apostles be to be belieued only in that which they deliuered constantly as a certaine diuine truth as he teaches Pag. 144. N. 31. surely this man and his fellow Socinians ought not to be belieued in any thing seing according to their doctrine that faith is fallible and but probable they neither are nor can be constant in any poynt they deliuer and so we cannot say so much of them as of the Scribes and Pharisees Matt 23.2 whatsoeuer they shall say vnto you doe but according to their works doe not but doe neither what they shall say nor according to their works And heere I beseech and euen begg of the Reader if he haue any care to saue his soule that he will consider how far the faith of this man and his Associates is from true Christian Faith of which we haue heard S. Paule saying Although we or an Angell from Heauen euangelize to you beside that which we haue euangelized be he an Anathema 25. But this is not all that strongly offers it selfe in this poynt For not only his Faith cannot affoard any rest or satisfaction wherby a man may cease from further inquiry but leaues him with a strict obligation to be incessantly examining his Religion and seeking whether he can fynd some more probable and better grounded This sequele seems cleare Because the true Faith and Religion being absolutely necessary to saluation charity towards ones self obliges euery man to seeke the safer way and the most certaine Religion And seeing he is not certaine that the Religion or way to Heauen which for the present seemes to him most probable as we haue heard him speake is indeed the right way what remaynes but that men are obliged to be continually busied and perplexed in the search of the true Faith necessary to saluation This my inference seemes to be acknowledged by him For beside what hath beene already cited he sayes of himselfe P. 278. N. 61. If I did not put away idleness and prejudice and worldly affections and so examine to the bottome all my opinions of diuine matters being prepard in mynd to fellow God and God only which way sceuer he shall lead me if I did not hope that I eyther doe or endeauour to dâ—e these things certainly I should haue little hope of obtaining saluation Loe heere little hope of saluation vnless a man be still examining to the bottome his opinions and be prepard in mynd to follow c. But in Vaine it is to seeke that rest which will neuer be found except in a Faith and Religion acknowledged to be absolutely certaine and infallible which alone can put an end to all further inquiry Finally Pag. 376. N. 57. he sayth This is the Religion which I haue chosen after a long deliberation and I am verily perswaded that I haue chosen wisely Ponder verily perswaded And were not you verily perswaded in those your changes which you acknowledg Pag. 303. N. 103. from a moderate Protestant to a Papist from a doubting Papist to a confirmed Protestant were you not I say verily perswaded that you did choose wisely Yea you expresly tell vs in the same Pag. 303. that of a moderate Protestant you turned a Papist and that the day that you did so you were conuicted in conscience that your yesterdayes opinion that is Protestantisme was an errour By all which appeares how inconstant you were and must be in matters of Faith and Religion till you acknowledg an infallible Faith taken from an infallible liuing Guide which is Gods true Church 26. From this liberty of Belief what can follow but liberty of life Seing his belief of Heauen and Hell is but an opinion concerning things of an other world wheras worldly pleasures are in present possession and certaine If the absolute certainty wherwith all Christians hitherto haue belieued their Faith to abound hath not bene able to stop the course of mens licentiousness what can we now expect but that they who before did runne will now fly after the Idols of whatsoeuer may appeare to their soules or bodyes objects of profit or delight Pag. 326. N. 4. he teaches that if faith be infallible no Christian could committ any deliberate sinne yea and must be perfect in Charity because Faith is the victorie which ouercomes the world and Charity is the effect of Faith If this be so we may say on thecontrary side that if faith be weake or only probable what victory what perfection in Charity can be hoped from it But let
or liuing as we ought is the cause of faith and as faith is the cause of Charity to which all being obliged they are by consequence obliged to procure the cause therof which you say is faith Wherfor vpon the whole matter your probable faith remaines only to such as keepe not the Commandements nor liue as they belieue which if they did God would rayse them higher to a certainty For thus you say Pag 37. N. 9. God will accept of the weakest and lowest degree of faith if it be truing and effectuall to true obedience and rhat for sincere obedience God may and will rayse men higher to a Certainty Therfor a primo ad vltimum the weakest Faith if it be effectuall to obedience will bring men to certainty Therfore none de facto want such a certainty except they whose faith is not liuing nor effectuall to obedience And further seing you confess yours not to be certaine it must follow that it is not effectuall to true obedience otherwise it would be improued to a Certainty 73. But this is not all that occurrs to be sayd in this poynt Remember your doctrine Pag 379. N. 70. and elswhere that repentance necessary to saluation requires effectuall dereliction and mortification of all viâ—es and the effectuall practise of all Christian vâ—rtues which whosoever performes exercises very perfect obedience and shall not fayle of being raysed higher to a Certainty of faith Therfor your fallible faith will remaine only in sinners For if one either giue himselfe to sincere obedience and so fall not into great sinne or truly repent by your kind of repentance he must passe to a certainty of Faith and so all in state of saluation both Saints that is who haue not sinned mortally and repentant sinners cannot want the spirit of Obsignation as you call it and certaine Faith Why then do you deceiue the world and delude poore soules with a fallible faith or perswasion and not absolutely proclaime to the world that infallible Faith is necessary since euen according to your grounds it is necessary for all sorts of people 74. Now all your Objections and my Answers being vnpartially considered let any man judge whether your Arguments deserue such epithetons as you giue them of demonstratiue conuincing inuincible cleare and the like and what reason you had to say P. 326. N. 4. These you see are strang and portentuous consequences and yet the deduction of them from your doctrine is cleare and apparent which shewes this doctrine of yours which you would fame haue true that there might be some necessity of your Churches infallibility to be indeed plainly repugnant not only to Truth but euen to all Religion and Piety sit for nothing but to make men negligent of making any progress in faith or Charity And therfor I must intreat and adjure you either to discouer vnto me which I take God to witness I cannot perceaue some fallacy in my reasons against it or neuer herafter to open your mouth in defence of it 75. I answer S. Paule had good reason to say Scientia inflat 1. Cor 8.1 Knowledg puffeth vp it is a poysonous quality making the person swell his Arguments and all that he does or sayes swell and emptyness appeare greatness it is a multiplying glasse that stirrs vp in mens fancyes strang and huge apparitions from nothing But Sir remeber that your ObjectioÌ„s make no more against Vs Catholikes than PictestaÌ„ts who profess ChristiaÌ„ Religion to be infallible and I belieue will not belieue your bare word that these consequences are cleare Christian Historicall Faith is infallibly true Therfor it must be lost by any least doubting though resisted that is by a no-doubt as I haue shewed it must be incompatible with any deliberate sinne it must bring with it Charity so perfect that we can make no progress therin For my part I do in no wise vnderstand such deductions nor how any man of vnderstanding should take them for good as I haue shewed more than sufficiently though yet I must add that though the consequences which you pretend to deduce from our doctrine be strange and portentuous in themselues yet to you they ought not to seeme so or at least ought not to be publikly avouched by you for such For besides that the very same consequences which you deduce from our doctrine follow from your owne assertions as I haue proued answer I beseech you these few Demands 1. Whether it be more convenient that true Diuine Faith should be inconsistent with an involuntary Doubt which you inferr against vs as a great absurdity or that it should be compatible with a voluntary sinfull damnable not only Doubt but positiue assertive Errour as you teach Pag. 368. N. 49. and call the contrary doctrine a vaine and groundless fancy as I observed aboue or that it may stand with an assent that probably it may be false or with a preparation of mynd to forsake it if seeming better reasons offer themselves against it thaÌ„ you conceive your selfe to haue for it which for ought you know may happen as I shewed above 2. Whether it be worse that all should of necessity be perfect in charity by an Infallible Faith or that none can be perfect as it ineuitably followes out of your Tenets put togeather That Faith is only probable and fallible and yet that the measure of our victory over the world and of our charity must be taken from Faith which you say is the cause of charity and the effect cannot be more perfect than the cause Besides your brethren the Calvinists believe that men are justifyed by a sirme and certaine Faith that they are just and that charity and good works are inseparable from such a Faith and then seing according to your owne words if the cause be perfect the effect must be perfect and that the cause of charity is in their opinion perfect that is a sirme and certaine Faith it followes that their charity must of necessity be perfect and that no just man can make any progress therin 3. Whether it be more absurd to hold an impossibility of committing any deliberate sinne or to belieue that all our best actions are deadly sinnes Or whether it be worse to teach that one cannot breake the commandements which you against all truth impute to vs Or that he cannot keepe them euen with the assistance of Gods grace which is the common doctrine of Protestants Thus then it is not our doctrine but the errours of you and your brethren that must in many respects make men negligent of making any progress in Faith or charity And what a Paradoxe is this A weake and fallible Faith makes men diligent in making Progress in charity and a strong infallible Faith is fit for nothing but to make men negligent of making any progress in Faith or Charity as yon are pleased strangly to speake directly against the admonition of S. Peter 1. Pet 5. cui resistite fortes in Fide whom
kept without Gods particular efficacious Grace which will not constantly be given to him who wants true Christian Faith Nay if justifying Grace be necessary for keeping the Commandements for long tyme as I proved there much more true Faith must be required to doe it Morover besides our obligation to keepe the morall law or of Nature there are precepts binding vs to the exercise of supernaturall Acts of infused vertues for example Hope and Charity and how shall our will exercise supernaturall Acts without a proportionable supernaturall direction in our vnderstanding And if the direction be supernaturall it cannot be erroneous but infallibly true and essentially different from your fallible assent as I have bene forced often to repeate But why do I endeavour to prove this poynt I cannot doubt but if you did believe that Christian Faith necessary to salvation must be in it selfe infallible by the particular precept of faith you would not say a Faith only probable could be sufficient to worke by Love and keepe the other Commandements For if it be supposed not be a true Faith how can it worke by Love or live it selfe being more than dead that is an Assent which never lived the life or nature or essence of divine Faith Surely if a Faith believed to be infallible doth not restrayne the wills and Passions of men what liberty would they take if their thoughts could tell them that Christian Religion may prove not true as in your doctrine it may 99. Object 7. Pag. 37. N. 9. Some experience makes me feare that the Faith of considering and discoursing men is like to be crackt with too much strayning and that being possessed with this false principle that it is in vaine to belteue the Gospell of Christ with such a kind or degree of assent as they yeld to other matters of Tradition And fynding that their Faith of it is to them vndiscernable from the belief they giue to the truth of other storyes are in danger either not to belieue at all thinking not at all as good as to no purpose or else though indeed they do belieue it yet to think they do not and to cast themselves into wretched agonyes and perplexityes as fearing they haue not that without which it is impossible to please God and obtaine etern all happyness 100 Answer Blessed be our Lord who hath given vs his Holy Grace not to follow our owne fancyes nor be tossed with every wind of Doctrine but to rely on the Rocke of the Catholike Church where I never knew any such men as you talke of nor do thinke any such can be found amongst Christians no nor amongst any who profess any Religion which all men conceyve to signify a true and certaine way of worshiping God And who would make choyse of a Religion which he did not certainly belieue to be true vnless he be first tempted and tainted with Socinianisme wherby being by his meere probable belief placed betweeÌ„ the certainty of Catholike Faith and the No-religion of Atheists is in evident danger or rather in a voluntary necessity to fall into Atheisme vnless he rayse himselfe to our Catholique Certainty as he may doe by the assistance of Gods Holy Grace which is neuer wanting to vs if we be not wanting to it Do not yourself teach that if one liue as he believes and every one ought to liue as he belieues he shall be raysed by the spirit of God to a certainty If then every one may and ought to make his beliefe sure by a certainty what place remaynes for agonyes and perplexityes Contrarily by resting in a probable Faith he hath manifest and necessary cause of perplexity and most just feare least he want that which Catholiks Protestants and all who profess any Religion hold most certainly necessary to salvation and that it is a grievous sin even to deny such a necessity especially the contrary pernicious errour being maintained by a few who dare not openly declare of what Sect they are Men in the question concerning Eternity of Happiness or Misery are obliged to seek and embrace the safer way of which by meere probability they cannot be assured but must be still seeking further and further and never finding Certainty in their naked probabilityes are deservedly by their owne fault cast into most reasonable agonyes and perplexityes Not then our belief of the certainty of Christian Faith but your contrary Heresy puts men in danger not to belieue at all thinking not at all as good as to no purpose For since as it were by the instinct of nature men conceiue Religion to be a certainly true and right worship of God you who would perswade them that no such certainty is possible cast them with good reason vpon a necessity of believing nothing at all wherin as every body will detest your impiety so I cannot but wonder at your inconsequence to yourself in the other part of these your words or else though indeed they do belieue it yet to thinke they do not and to cast themselves into wretched agonyes and perplexityds seing Pag. 357. N. 38. you resolutely say to Charity Maintayned of your selfe I certainly know and with all your Sophistry you cannot make me doubt of what I know that I do belieue the Gospell of Christ as verily as that it is now day that I see the light that I am now writing and I belieue it vpon this Motiue because I conceyue it sufficiently abundantly superabundantâ—y proved to be Divâ—ne Revelation And after a few lines you say in generall If no man can err coâ—cerning what he believes then you muâ—â— give me leaue to assure myself that I do belieue Do not all these words aÌ„d more to be read in the same place declare that in your opinyon whosoeuer belieues with certainty is certaine that he belieues with certainty yea and which is more he is certaine vpon what Motiue he belieues How then do you say They are in danger though indeed they belieue yet to thinke they do not and to cast themselues into wretched c By the way it is to be observed that heer you profess to belieue the Divine Revelation not for it self as the Formall Object of Faith should be belieued but for precedent Inducements which therfor are the Formall Object of our Faith and so it is no Theologicall vertue nor a Divine Assent as I said hertofore 101. But above all who can indure your saying that considering and discoursing men fynd their faith of the Gospell of Christ to be to them vndiscernable from the belief they give to the truth of other storyes and yet you suppose and labour to prove that such a faith is sufficient to salvation I appeale to the conscience of every Christian whether he fynds not in his soule an assent to what he reads in Holy Scripture farr different and of another kind and higher nature and greater strength than the credit he gives to other storyes If your considering and discoursing men have
objections out of scripture And therfor they cannot with certainty believe the sayd principle Your self say Pag 61. N. 23. If our Saviour had intended that all Controversyes in Religion should be by some visible judg finally determined who can doubt but in playne termes he would have expressed himself about this matter And may not we turne the same argument against you and say If our Saviour had intended that all poynts of Faith and religion should be evident in scripture without relation to any visible judg church or vnwrtiten Tradition who can doubt but in plaine termes he would have expressed himself in this matter And my retortion is stronger than your Argument can be because true Catholique Doctrine belieues not only scripture or the written word of God but tradition also or the word of God not written which all grant to haue bene before scripture and from which you confess we receiue scripture it self And so although nothing were sayd in scripture of a visibse judg to determine controversyes in Religion yet vniuersall tradition sense of all Christians and practise of Gods church in determining and defining matters of Faith were sufficient to assure vs therof But Protestants must either alledg evident scripture or nothing at all This I say not as if we wanted evident scripture for the necessity of a visible judg of controversyes but only to shew that we haue not that necessity of alledging scripture for this and every other particular poynt which Protestants haue 25. Secondly I proue our assertion thus we are to suppose that Allmighty God having ordayned Man to a supernaturall End cannot faile to provide on his part meanes sufficient for attaining therof Since then Faith is necessary for ariving to that End if it cannot be learned except by scripture alone no doubt but he would have obliged the Apostles to write as he obliged them to preach and Christians to heare the Gospell For if he left it to their freedom it is cleare that he did not esteeme writing to be necessary which yet must be most necessary if we can attaine Faith and salvation only by scripture But Protestants even for this cause that they are to belieue nothing which is not expressed in scripture cannot affirme that our Saviour gaue any such command to his Apostles seing it is evident no such thing is expressed in scripture Therfor they cannot avouch any such command But for preaching we read Marc 16. V. 15. Going into the whole world preach yee the Gospell to all creatures And in obedience to this command it is recorded V. 20. But they going forth preached every where And our Saviour living on earth sent his Apostles abroad with this injunction Matth 10.7 Euntes praedicate Goe preach The Apostle saith Rom 10.17 Faith is by hearing And V. 18. have they not heard And certes into all the earth hath the sound of them gone forth and vnto the ends of the whole earth the words of them where we heare of hearing and speaking but not of writing or reading of a sound conveyed to the eares of the whole world not of any booke or writing set before their eyes Thus we see that only two of the Apostles haue also made themselves Evangelists by writing the Gospell though all were Evangelists by preaching it Chill and his fellowes thinke they can demonstrate out of S. Luke more clearly than out of any other Evangelist that his Gospell contaynes all poynts necessary to salvation and yet He is so farr from producing any command he had to write which had bene the most cleare effectuall and necessary cause that could haue bene alledged that contrarily he shewes that it was done by free election saying Luc 1.1 3. because many haue gone about c. It seemed good also to me to write c. Neither doth any one of all the Canonicall writers alledg a command for writing S. Paule saith 1. Cor 9.16 If I evangelize it is no glory to me for necessity lyeth vpon me for woe is to me if I evangelize not But he sayes not woe to me if I write not and accordingly we see some of the canonicall writers differred writing a long tyme after our B. Sauiours Ascension and did not write but on severall incident occasions as Bellarmine de verbo Dei L. 4. C. 4. demonstrates out of Eusebius If then it was not judged necessary that scripture should be written but that the Church had other meanes to beget and conserue true Faith and religion as S. Paule 1. Cor 15.1 expressly saith I doe you to vnderstand the Gospell which I preached vnto you which also you received in the which also you stand And V. 11. So we preach and so you haue believed What can be more vnreasonable than to belieue it to be necessary that all things necessary be evidently contayned in scripture alone without dependance on tradition or the church Or who can believe that the Saints Paule Iames Iude Iohn in their Epistles written vpon severall occasions or to private persons intended to write a Catechisme or specify all necessary points of Faith Hence it is that Eusebius Histor Eccles L. 3. C. 24. affirmes that S. Iohn was sayd to haue preached the Gospell even almost to the end of his life without notice of any scripture and in generall that the Apostles were not sollicitous to write much And the same is observed by S. Chrysostome Hom 1. in Act. Apost If then Protestants cannot proue by evident scripture that all Canonicall writers receyved a command to write how will they proue that they were bound to publish their writings wherof as I sayd some were directed to private persons or that others were or are bound to publish them or to reade them being published And if they can shew no command for these things how can they maintayne that there is no meanes to know matters of Faith except by scripture 26. Thirdly you teach That all necessary poynts are evident in scripture though there be many points evident which are not necessary that we cannot precisely determine what points in particular be necessary that such a determination or distinction is needless For all necessary points being evident in scripture whosoever believes all evident points is sure to know all necessary points and more This is your chiefest ground in this matter But it is evidently refuted by willing you to reflect that by this meanes all must be obliged to know all the cleare or evident texts of scripture otherwise he cannot be sure that he knowes all necessary points since you giue him the assurance of knowing all necessary points only by this meanes of knowing all points that are evident Therfore if he be not sure that he knowes all evident points he cannot be sure that he knowes all such as are necessary Yea every one will be obliged to know every text or period of scripture and to examine whether it be evident or obscure least that if vpon examination it appeare to be
not for poynts only profitable and if you answer affirmatively then you wil be obliged to informe vs how we may be able to distinguish so evidently between very profitable and only profitable things as that we may certainly know what must be clearly contayned in scripture what not But it is impossible for you to giue any such intelligible solid practicall distinction and therfore you cannot affirme that all very profitable poynts are evident in scripture but not things only profitable Since then you cannot say that al profitable things are evident in scripture for that were to affirme that all scripture is cleare there being nothing revealed by God which is not profitable and yet who will deny but that the scripture is obscure in some poynts you must be content to conclude that all very profitable things are not evidently contayned in scripture And further wheras you joyne togeather things necessary and things very profitable and assigne the selfsame meanes for ending all controversies concerning those two kinds of things which is really and sincerely to submitt their judgments to scripture and that only seing this means will not serue for ending all controversies in things very profitable as I haue shewed it followes that it is not sufficient to end all controversies concerning things necessary And if in things profitable and very profitable that may seeme evident to one which to another may seeme obscure or even vntrue the same also may happen in things necessary in regard that all the Rules and industryes which Protestants assigne for finding the true sense of scripture are no less fallible in things necessary than in things very profitable But whatsoever your opinion be concerning things very profitable or profitable I take thence a strong argument and say 73. 13 Not only for things necessary but for things profitable also there cannot be wanting in Gods Church some meanes to end controversies touching them by declaring them with certainty and infallibility For although if things profitable be taken in particular and severally every one is no more than profitable yet speaking of a Community or a great Misticall body especially such a body as the Church of Christ is instituted by an infinite wisdome and ordayned to the sublime End of Eternall Happyness toward the attayning wherof every little advantage and help is not to be litle esteemed and the privation and want therof or euery errour therin is to be in like proportion avoyded things profitable taken as it were in generall ought in morall consideration to be judged necessary in such a body which otherwise would looke like a man conceyved with his Essence only devested of all accidents and integrant parts or like to his body indued with necessary parts only for example hart and braine without feete hāds eares eyes and other senses And therfor it cannot be imagined but that God hath left meanes in his Church for declaring truths and determining Controversyes in profitable poynts as occasion shall require The scripture of it self is most sacred and effectuall to the conversion of sinners and convincing of Heretikes if it be redd with sobriety and interpreted with submission of our vnderstanding to Gods Church Otherwise Experience shewes that men from it by the fault of men not of it take occasion of implacable and endless contentions without any possibility of remedy till they submitt their judgments and will to some infallible Living Guide For this cause also their Faith and Religion is sterill and barren as being deprived of Gods blessing for the conversion of nations to Christ fortold by the Prophets as a Priviledge of the true Church Thus the very name of Christ preached by some who were out of the Church was not efficacious to the casting out of divells Act. 19.15 yea contrarily the divell so prevayled against them that they fled out of that house naked and wounded V. 16. Even so the scripture out of the Church is neither effectuall for concord among Christians nor for the conversion of Infidels to Christ 74. 14. What I haue sayd about the necessity of profitable things considered as it were in generall and consequently of some meanes to determine controversyes concerning them may be confirmed by a discourse of yours Pag. 9. N. 6. where you say VVe are bound by the loue of God and loue of Truth to be Zealous in the defence of all Truths that are any way profitable Mark any way and not only Very profitable though not simply necessary to salvation Or as if any good man could satisfy his conscience without being so affected and resolved Our Saviour himself having assured vs Matth. 5.19 That he that shall break one of his least Commandements some wherof you pretend are concerning veniall sinnes and consequently the keeping of them not necessary to salvation and shall so teach men shal be called the least in the kingdome of Heaven And Pag 277. N. 61. you teach that God hath promised such an assistance as shall lead vs if we be not wanting to it and ourselves into all not only necessary but very profitable Truth and guard vs from all not only destructiue but also hurtfull errours Which words are directly against yourself whom we haue heard saying That if controversyes touching things not necessary or not very profitable were continued or increased it were no matter Wheras here you say of things any way profitable that by the loue of God and loue of Truth and obligation of conscience and vnder payne of being the least in the kingdome of Heaven that is of being excluded from the kingdome of Heauen according to S. Chrysostome and Theophylact who interpret minimus the least to signify nullus none at all we are bound to be zealous in the defence of them A great zeale indeed to maintayne that if debates concerning them could not be ended but continued or increased it were no matter Do you not through your whole Booke teach that all errours against revealed truths are breaches of Gods command and are in themselves damnable and will effectually proue such if ignorance do not excuse or a generall Repentance do not obtaine pardon for them How then is it no matter if they remayne vndecided or that there be no meanes to decide them Is it no matter whether one by breaking one of Gods commandements be least in the kingdome of Heaven As for your Parenthesis that we pretend some of the commandements to be concerning veniall sins the keeping wherof is not necessary to salvation I say it is either vntrue or impertinent For if you meane that we pretend some errour against any least revealed Truth sufficiently proposed to be a veniall sin it is very vntrue You know that Cha Ma doth teach the contrary through his whole work and theron grounds the maine scope of his Booke That of two disagreeing in Poynts of Faith or Objects revealed by God and sufficiently propounded one committs a deadly sin and without repentance cannot be saved If you meane
delivered by word or writing and therfor cannot without damnation be rejected by any to whom it is sufficiently propounded for such which sufficiency of proposition is required in all articles of Faith fundamentall or not fundamentall before one can be obliged to belieue them 27 Since then according to your Doctrine we are not obliged to belieue Scripture to be the word of God yea and may reject it It remaines true then as I sayd in the last Chapter Scripture cannot be a perfect Rule nor any Rule at all of Faith although we should falsly suppose that it containes evidently all things necessary to be believed For what can it availe me in order to the exercising an act of Faith to read any Point in that Booke which I conceiue my self not obliged to belieue Let vs now come to another errour of yours 28. Your second errour I find Pag. 144. N. 31. where you write thus If you be so infallible as the Apostles were shew it as the Apostles did They went forth saith S. Marke and preached every where the lord working with them and confirming their words with signes following It is impossible that God should lye and that the eternall Truth should set his hand and seale to the confirmation of a falshood or of such Doctrine as is partly true and partly false The Apostles Doctrine was thus confirmed therfor it was intirely true and in no part either false or vncertaine I say in no part of that which they dâ—livered constantly as a certaine divine Truth and which had the Attestation of Divine Miracles For that the Apostles themselves even after the sending of the Holy Ghost were and through inadvertence or prejudice continued for a tyme in errour repugnant to a revealed Truth it is vnanswerably evident from the story of the Acts of the Apostles For notwithstaÌ„ding our Saviours express warrant and injunction to goe and preach to all Nations yet vntill S. Peter was better informed by a vision from Heaven and by the conversion of Cornelius both h o and the rest of the Church held is vnlawfull for them to goe or preach the Gospell to any but the Iewes And Pag. 145. N. 33. you say the Apostles could not be the Churches Foundations without freedome from errour in all those things which they delivered constantly as certaine revealed Truths Do not these words overthrow Christian Religion and Authority of Scriptures 29. These conditions you require that the Doctrine of the Apostles be to vs certaine and receyved as Divine Truth 1. It must be delivered constantly 2 It must be delivered as a Divine Truth 3. It must haue the Artestation of Divine Miracles and these conditions you require for every part therof For you say the Doctrine of the Apostles was false or vncertaine in no part and then you add expressly this limitation I say in no part of that which they delivered constantly as a certaine Divine Truth and which had the Artestation of Divine Maracies You cannot deny but that the Apostles if they conceyved that the Gospell was not to be preached to the Gentills did frame that opinyon out of some apprehended Revelation for example In viam gentium ne abieritis Matth 10.5 Into the way of the Gentiles goe ye not or Matth 15.24 I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel or some other and so delivered a thing conceyved by them to be a Divine Truth yet they were deceyved in that Poynt because it wanted the other conditions of constancy and Attestation of Divine Miracles and consequently your doctrine must be that every Point of Faith must haue all the sayd three conditions and that the Apostles after the sending of the Holy Ghost might faile in some of them and might teach an errour in delivering matters concerning Faith and Religion 30. If this be so what certainty can we now haue that they on whom Christians are builded as vpon their Foundation Ephes 2.20 haue not erred in writing as then they erred in speaking And in particular whether they did not erre in setting downe that very command which Pag 137. N. 21. You cite out of S. Matth 29.19 Goe and teach all Nations And so at this present we cannot be certaine whether the Apostles erred in their first thoughts of not preaching or in their second of preaching the Gospell to Gentils If they were vniversally assisted by the Holy Ghost they could erre in neither without it in both and if once you deny such an vniversall assistance we cannot possibly know when they are to be trusted and how can you be certaine that S. Luke hath not erred in declaring this very Story out of which you would proue that S. Peter and the other Apostles did erre You grant Pag 35. N. 7. That the meanes to decide Controversyes in Faith and Religion must be indued with an vniversall infallibility in whatsoever it propoundeth for a Divine Truth For if it may be false in any one thing of this nature in any thing which God requires men to belieue we can yield vnto it but a wavering and fearfull Assent in any thing Seing therfor you teach that the Apostles were deceaved in a thing which God required them to belieue and commanded them to practise according to your owne saying we can yield vnto them but a wavering and fearfull assent in any thing What the Apostles spoke or preached they might haue written it is your owne saying Pag 54. N. 7. Whatsoever is delivered by word of mouth may also be written neither had it bene more or less true or false by being committed to writing than if it had bene only spoken or preached and so if they could erre in speaking we cannot be sure but that their writings may containe some errour proceeding from inadvertence or prejudice or some other cause as you speake Pag 137. N. 21. This I may confirme by what you say to Ch Ma Pag 84.86 D. Fields words I confess are somwhat more pressing and if he had bene infallible and the words had not slipt vnadvisedly from him they were the best Argument in your Booke In which words I note that although D. Field had bene infallible yet words might haue slipt from him vnadvisedly even in writing for you speake of what he hath written in his Book and therfor much more if the Apostles were supposed to haue bene fallible and actually to haue erred as you say they did why might not their errour haue vnadvisedly slipt from them into their writings 31. If you answer that it belongs to Gods providence not to permit an errour to be set downe in writing and conveyed to posterity I reply by this very Reason it is cleare that God could not permitt the Apostles to erre against any revealed Truth and yet oblige vs to belieue with certainty their writings which we can belieue only for the Authority and Infallibility of the Writers especially since you pretend that this errour of theirs is
excuse vs. If then you will stand to your owne doctrine you cannot deny but at one tyme that may consist with salvation which at another tyme is not compatible therwith The Church of God hath defined what Bookes be Canonicall and this Definition all are obliged vnder payne of damnation to belieue and obey And even by this we may learne the necessity of acknowledging a Living Judg. All Books which are truly Canonicall were proposed and receyved by Crihstians After ward the knovvledg of some Bookes and some truths began to be obscured or doubted of or denyed by some and perhaps not by a few and those of great authority if we respect either learning or other endowments qualityes and abilityes vnder the degree of infallibility as we see there wanted not in the Apostles tyme some who were zealous for the observation of the Mosaicall Law and as these could not haue bene confuted convinced and quieted but by the infallibility of the first Councell held in Jerusalem so after some Bookes of scripture come once to be Questioned it is impossible to bring men backe to an vnanimous or any well grounded reception and certainty of them except by some authority acknowledged to be infallible which if we deny those Books which are receyved by many or most may as I sayd be doubted of even by those many and they which were receyved by few may in tyme gaine number and authority and so all things concerning scripture must be still ebbing and flowing and sloating in irremediable and endless vncertainty of admitting and rejecting the Canonicall Books And what connection or tye or threed can we haue to find out the Antiquity and truth of scripture except by such a Guide 51. And here I may answer an Objection which you make against some words of Cha Ma Part 1. Chap 3. N. 12. which you relate Pag 141.142 N. 28.29 Some Bookes which were not alwayes knowen to be Canonicall haue bâ—ne afterward receyved for such but never any one Booke or syllable defined for Canonicall was afterward Questioned or rejected for Apocryphall A signe that Gods Church is infallibâ—y assisted by the Holy Ghost never to propose as Dâ—vine Truths any thing not revealed by God! These words that you may with more ease impugne you thinke fit to cite imperfectly For where Cha Ma sayd never any one Booke or syllable desined by the Church was afterward Questioned or rejected for Apocryphall you leaue out by the Church which words yield a plaine Answer to your Objection or any that can be made Thus then you say Toneâ—ing the first sâ—rt if they were not commended to the Church by the Apoâ—â—â—es as Canonicall seeing after the Apostles the Church pretends to no new Revelation how can it be â—n Article of Faith to belicue them Canonicall And how can you pretend that your Church which makes this an Article of Faith is so assisted as not to propose any thing as a Divine Truth which is not revealed by God If they were commended to the Church by the Apostles as Canonicall low then is the Church an infallible keeper of the Canon of Scripture which hath suffered some Books of Canonicall Scripture to be lost And others to loose for a long tyme their being Canonicall at least the necessity of being so esteemed and afterward as it were by the Law of Postliminium hath restored their Authority and Canonicalbiess vnto them If this was delivered by the Apostles to the Church the Poynt was sufficiently discussed and therfore your Churches omission to teach it for some ages as an Article of Faith nay degrading it from the Number of Articles of Faith and putting it among disputable problems was surely not very laudable 52. Answer All Canonicall Bookes were commeÌ„ded to the Church by the Apostles for such though not necessarily to all Churches at the same instant and we pretend to no new Revelations And for your demand how then is the Church an infallible keeper of Scripture if some Bookes haue bene lost and others lost for a long tyme their being Canonicall or at least the necessity of being so esteemed I answer Your Argument is of no force against vs Catholiques who belieue an alwayes Living Guide the Church of God by which we shall infallibly be directed in all Points belonging to Faith and Religion to the worldes end as occasion shall require yea we bring this for a Demonstration that the Church must be infallible and Judg of Controversyes There was no scripture for about two thousand yeares from Adam to Moyses And againe for about two thousand yeares more from Moyses to Christ our Lord holy scripture was only among the people of IsraeÌ„l and yet there were Gentils in those dayes indued with Divine Faith as appeareth in Job and his friends The Church also of our Saviour Christ was before the scriptures of the New Testament which were not written instantly nor all at one tyme but successively and vpon severall occasions and some after the decease of most of the Apostles and after they were written they were not presently knowne to all Churches and as men could be saved in those tymes without scripture so afterward also vpon condition that we haue a Living Guide and be ready to receiue scripture when it shall be proposed to vs by that Guide But your Objection vrges most against your brethren and yourself who acknowledg no other Rule of Faith but scripture alone and yet teach that the duty of the Church is to keepe scripture which being now your only Rule and necessary for Faith and salvation how doth she discharge her duty if she hath suffered some Bookes to be lost And others to loose for a long tyme their being Canonicall at least the necessity of being so esteemed Especially seing you teach against other Protestants that we receyue scripture from the Authority of the Church alone and therfor if she may faile either by proposing false scriptures or in conserving the true ones Protestants want all meanes of salvation Neither can you answer that it belongs to Gods Providence not to permit scripture to be wholly lost since it is necessary to salvation For you must remeber your owne Doctrinem that God may permit true Miracles to be wrought to delude men in punishment of their sins and then why may he not permit either true scriptures to be lost or false ones to be obtruded for true in punishment of sin and particularly of the excessiue pride of those who preferr their judgment before the Decrees of Gods church deny her Authority allow no Rule but scripture interpreted by themselves alone that so their pride against the Church and the abuse of true scripture may be justly punished by subtraction of true or obtrusion of false Bookes Beside God in his holy Providence works by second causes or Meanes If then he permit some scriptures to be lost and yet his Will be that there remaine a way open to Heaven he will not faile to do
our Saviours express warrant and injunction to goe and preach to all Nations Christ then according to you did not depriue the Apostles of freewill though he proposed externally the Object and gaue them sufficient Grace to performe his will For if he had mooved them to Truth by way of necessity they could not haue erred If you grant this what will follow but that as the Church so the Apostles might deviate from that which God declared and commanded and consequently either belieue amiss or not set downe faithfully in writing what they believed Which is also confirmed by what you write P. 86. N. 93. If it were true that God had promised to assist you for the delivering of true Scripture would this oblige Him or would it follow from hence that he had obliged himself to teach you not only sufficiently but effectually and irresistibly the true sense of scripture And a little after God is not lavish in superfluityes and therfor having given vs meanes sufficient for our direction and power sufficient to make vse of these meanes he will not constraine or necessitate vs to make vs of these meanes For that were to crosse the end of our Creation which was to be glorifyed by our free Obedience Wheras necessity and freedom connot stand togeather And afterward If God should worke in vs by an absolute irresistible necessity the Obedience of Faith c he could no more require it of vs as our duty than he can of the sun to shine of the Sea to ebb and flow and of all other creatures to do those things which by meere necessity they must do and cannot choose And Pag 88. N. 96. you say expressly That God cannot necessitate men to belieue aright without taking away their free will in believing and in professing their belief It seemes by these words you hold the Apostles to haue had freewill in believing preaching and writing and that therfor it was in their power to deviate from Gods will and motion and then according to your grounds as the church so also the Apostles might erre Which deduction is also proved by your words Pag 172. N. 71. The spirit of truth may be with a man or Church for ever and teach him all Truth and yet he may fall into some errour even contrary to the truth which is taught him only sufficiently and not irresistibly so that he may learne it if he will not so that he must and shall whether he will or no. Now who can assertaine me that the spirits teaching is not of this nature Or how can you possibly reconcile it with your Doctrine of freewill in believing if it be not of this nature Now if you do not depriue the Apostles of freewill because otherwise God could no more require of them as their duty to belieue preach and write such truths as were inspired by Him than he can of the sun to shine of the sea to ebb and flow c this discourse of yours takes away their infallibility and proves that they might fall into some errour even contrary to the truth which was taught or revealed to them and the contrary assertion cannot possibly be reconciled with their freewill And Pag 87. N. 95. you say If the Holy Ghosts moving the Church be resistible then the Holy Ghost may moue and the Church may not be moved And why do you not say if the Holy Ghosts moving the Apostles to belieue preach and write Scripture be resistible it must in the same manner follow that the Holy Ghost may move and the Apostles may not be moved and so may belieue preach and write errours 64. But this is not all the bitterness you Vent against the church in such manner as it wounds the Apostles no less than the church You say P. 86. N 93. and P. 87. N. 94. If you Church be infallibly directed concerning the true meaning of Scripture why do not your Doctours follow her infallible direction why doth she thus put her candâ—e vnder a bushell and keepe her Talent of interpreting Scripture infallâ—bly thus long wrapt vp in napkins why sets sheenot forth Infallible Commentaryes or Fxpositions vpon all the Bible Is it because this would not be profitable for Christians that Scripture should be interpreted It is blasphemous to say so The scripture itself tells vs all scripture is profitable And the scripture is not so much the words as the sense 65. In answer to this your weake and irreligious discourse I returne the like Demands whether the Apostles were infallibly directed concerning the true meaning or interpretatioÌ„ of scripture as they were for writing it I suppose you will say they were so directed Why then did they put their candle vnder a bushell and keepe their Talent of interpreting Scripture infallibly wrapt vp in napkins Why did they not set forth infallible commentaryes or expositions vpon all the bible Was it because this would not haue bene profitable for Christians that scripture should be interpreted It is blasphemous to say so The Scripture itself tells vs all scripture is profitable And scripture is not so much the words as the sence And when you haue made these Demands against the Apostles you may in like manner ascend higher and aske why divers parts of scripture were so written as they not only need expositions but that no mortall man can vnderstand them When you haue given a satisfactory answer to these Demands the same will answer your Questions concerning the church which being directed by the Holy Ghost will not faile to interpret declare and performe all that is necessary in order to the Eternall salvation of soules and in particular will supply by Tradition or other Meanes what is obscure or is not contayned in Scripture But then you aske againe N. 95. Whether this Direction of the Holy Ghost be resistible by the Church or irresistible I still answer by demanding whether the Motion of the Holy Ghost was resistible by the Apostles or irresistible If irresistible why may we not say the same of the church for those particular Actions of Interpreting Scripture and Deciding controversyes in Religion If resistible then either we are not sure that the Apostles did not deviate from the Motion of the holy Ghost as you inferâ— against the infallibility of the church or els we learne by this example of the Apostles that God may moue resistibly and yet infallibly for attainng that End which by meanes of such a Motion he intends This if you be resolved to deny we must conclude that the Apostles were not infallible in their writings and that we can haue no certainty that Scripture doth not containe errours But whatsoever you thinke the truth is that God wants not power to moue men resistibly and yet infallibly by divers wayes knowen to his infinite Wisdome I would gladly know whether you belieue that God can possibly be sure to make any one a Saint or a repentant sinner or can promise perseverance to the end I
contradictions and falshoods then are found in those Bookes of Scripture which both Catholikes and Protestants admit Now say I in this case what shall Reason doe being left to itself without any Authority beside itself The Motives and humane Testimonyes of your tradition produced in favour of Christianity are only probable as you affirme Arguments to the contrary seeme convincing and such as haue bene held for Principles among the best Philosophers as I shewed vpon another occasion and therfor Christian Religion is accounted foolishness to the Gentils and we treate of the tyme before one is a Christian who theÌ„ will oblige such a Man being in possession of his Liberty to accept vnder paine of damnation an obligation positively to belieue and to liue according to the Rules of Christian Faith only vpon fallible inducements in opposition to so great seeming evidence to the contrary 76. Neither can you in your grounds say that Miracles wrought in confirmation of Christian Religion ought to be prevalent against all seeming evidence of reason For you teach that true Miracles may be wrought to delude men for avoyding of which delusion it may seeme wisdome and safest to sticke close to the Principles of Reason wherby though he may chance to be deceyved yet he cannot be accounted rash imprudent or inexcusable 2. you must suppose that Miracles and all other Motives end in probability alone for if they surpass probability you grant Christian Faith to be infallible and then the difficulty still remaynes how one can be obliged to imbrace meere probabilityes and such as you confess are not able to rayse our mynd to a higher and more firme assent than they themselves are against and as I may say in despight of seeming evidence of Reason opposed only by such probabilityes 3. This Answer is not pertinent to our present Question which is not to treate how farr one may be obliged by Miracles either evident by sense to those who see them wrought or asserted and delivered by an authority believed to be infallible as we Catholikes belieue Gods church to be but we speak of Miracles wrought in great distance of tyme and place from vs commended and believed only by your fallible tradition which therfor leaves this doubt whether one can be obliged to preferr fallible humane tradition confessedly insufficient to cause a certaine assent before seeming evidence and certainty of naturall Reason And it seemes easy to demonstrate that Protestants if they will be constant to their owne assertions and proceedings must yield to that seeming evidence of Reason For it cannot be denyed without great obstinacy and impudency that in all ages there haue bene wrought frequent great and evident Miracles by the professours of the Catholique Religion recorded by men eminent for learning wisdome and Sanctity who would be credited in whatsoever case or cause of highest concernment and testifyed not by one or a few or many single persons but by whole Communityes Cittyes and Countryes by meanes of which Miracles Infidels haue beene and are at this day converted from the worship of Idols to know the true God and whom he hath sent Jesus Christ and yet notwithstanding all these Miracles which are able to convert Pagans Protestants will not conceiue themselves obliged to belieue that such Miracles were wrought or that those Articles of our Faith in confirmation wherof they were wrought are true And why Because they seeme contrary to naturall Reason as the Reall Presence Transubstantiation c Seing theÌ„ they reject Catholique Doctrines confirmed by Miracles in regard of that seeming contrariety to Reason how can they pretend Reason to receaue Scripture and the contents therof for example the Misteryes of the B. Trinity the Incarnation of the Son of God the Creation of all things out of nothing the Resurrection of the Dead and other such Articles which they make shew to belieue and are no less yea much more seeming contrary to reason then those doctrines of Catholikes which they reject Wherfor our finall Conclusion must be that to deny an infallible Authority both to propose Scripture and deliver infallible Traditions is to vndermine and ouerthrow Christian Religion 77. 7. Since Scripture may be corrupted as some haue bene lost and in particular Protestants affirme even the Vulgate Translation which anciently was vsed in the Church to be corrupted as also the Greek and Hebrew your Tradition cannot secure vs what in particular is or is not corruted because it delivers only as it were in gross such or such Bookes but cannot with certainty informe vs of all corruptions additions varietyes and alterations as occasion shall require Thus some both Catholikes and Protestanis teach that Additions haue been made even to Pentateuch others assirme the same of the Bookes of Josue Kings and Hieremy and the like Additions might and perhaps haue been made to other Bookes at least we cannot be sure of the contrary if we consult only your fallible Tradition neither can we know by it that such Additions proceeded from the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost And as Protestants are wont to say that a very great number of Catholique Doctrines which they vntruly call errours crept in by little and little as you also say Pag 91. N. 101. so what certainty can they haue that corruptions in Scriptures yea whole Apocriphall Bookes may not in tyme haue gained the repute of being Canonicall As for corruptions in Scripture you speak dangerously in saying Pag 141. N. 27. As for the infallibility of the Church it is so farr from being a proof of the Scriptures incorruption that no proof can be pretended for it but incorrupted places of Scripture which yet are as subject to corruption as any other and more likly to haue bene corrupted if it had bene possible then any other and made to speake as they do for the advantage of those meÌ„ whose ambitioÌ„ it hath bene a long tyme to bring all vnder their authority And afterward I would aske how shall I be assured that the Scriptures are incorrupted in these plaâ—es which arealledged to proue the infallibility of the Church seing it is possible and not altogeather improbable that these men which desire to be thought infallible wheÌ„ they had the government of all things in their owne hands may haue altered them for their purpose Do not these words giue scope for the enemyes of Christian Religion to object that we cannot be certaine of any Text of Scripture whether or no it be incorrupted For as you say it is not altogeather improbable that we haue altered some places for our purpose of proving the infallibility of the Church so you may say we haue done the same in other places to prove other Points of our belief and the like may be sayd of all others who teach different Doctrines that they will incline to corrupt Scripture in favour of their severall Sects Neither can we haue any certainty whether this which may be done hath not bene practised and
Scripture or what Books be CaÌ„onicall is not one of those principles which God hath written in mens harts nor a conclusion evidently arising from them nor is contained in Scripture in express termes or deducible from it by apparent consequence it being your owne Assertion Pag 69. N. 46. that it need not to be proved that the Divinity of a writing cannot be knowne from itself alone but by some extrinsecall Authority for no wise man denyes it it followes that according to your Principles it can be knowne only by the constant and Vniversall delivery of all Churches ever since the Apostles Now as you say there is no certainty but that a Doctrine or truth even a Divine truth constantly and vniversally delivered by the Apostolique Churches may through mens wickedness be contracted from its vniversality and interrupted in its perpetuity So also may the Canon or Bookes of Scripture which can haue no other argumeÌ„t to justify and support them beside Tradition run the some hazard by the wickednenss of meÌ„ and so come to loose vniversality aÌ„d perpetuity aÌ„d so cannot justify aÌ„d support any Divine truth And as true Books may come to loose so false ones may by the wickedness of meÌ„ come to gaine authority vnless we be assured of the contrary by the belief of an infallible Guide which can never admit of Apocryphall of false Scripture 89. 11. I goe forward to impugne your Tradition out of your owne words Pag 14. N. 14. were you say Though you say that Christ hath promised there shall be a perpetuall visible Church Yet you yourselves doe not pretend that he hath promised there shall be Historyes and Records alwayes extant of the professours of it in all ages nor that he hath any where enjoyned vs to read those Histories that we may be able to shew them Out of these words I argue thus It is not sufficient for your vniversall Tradition of all Ages that the whole Church of this age for example accept a Booke for Canonicall vnless it can be proved to haue bene receyved by all Churches of all ages as Pag 152. N. 44. You openly profess to dissent from S. Austine in this that whatsoever was practised or â—eld by the vniversall Church of his tyme must needs haue come from the Apostles and therfor it is necessary for you to affirme that there alwayes must be Historyes and records which one Age is to receyve from another to proue that Scripture was delivered for the word of God by the Apostles But You do not pretend that God hath promised that there shall be Historyes or Records alwayes extant nor that he hath any where enjoyned vs to reade these Historyes that we may be able to shew them and by them know the true Books of Scripture Therfor you must grant out of your owne assertion that you haue no sufficient meanes to know and rely vpon your Tradition especially if we consider that vnlearned men cannot possibly know whether there be such sufficient ground and Historyes as are necessary to make it Vniversall and yet all sorts of people must haue necessary and sufficient meanes for the knowledg of all things necessary to salvation which meanes Protestants affirme to be the Scripture alone But with vs the case is farr different who belieue a Perpetuall Visible Church For we believing that Church to be Infallible in one age as well as in another are not obliged to seeke after historyes or Records of tymes past as you are for your humane fallible Tradition in regard the Church being alwayes existent and Visible is perpetually indued whith such Notes Prerogatives and Evident Signes as make her manifest in every age and worthy of credit in matters belonging to Religion and among other Points for this in particular that herself must alwayes be Visible as shall be declared herafter more at large though it be also true that it may be evidently shewed for every age by all kind of Witnesses as well friends as Adversaryes that our Church hath alwayes had a visible Being and Prosessours of her Doctrine with a perpetuall Succession of Pastours and this so manifestly that it can no more be denyed than that there haue bene Christians ever since the tyme of the Apostles yea or that there have bene Emperours Kings Writers Warrs or such publike things as no man can deny But you who ground your belief of Scripture and all Chaistianity vpon a fallible Tradition knowne by Humane Historyes and Records of all ages and every one of your sect must either despayre of salvation or els procure to be learned and versed in all Historyes though yet even this will not preserue them from cause of despaire considering how insufficient humane Tradition is of itself as I haue proved out of your owne words and to the rest I will add your saying Pag 361. N. 40. The Fathers did vrge the joynt Trad 〈…〉 all the Apostelique Churcher with one mouth and one voyce teaching the same Doctrine not at a demonstration but only as a very probable Argument If this be so seing your vniversall Tradition can I hope be no better than the joynt Tradition of all the Apostolique Churches surely you can Vrge it only for a very probable and no demonstratiue Argument especially if we reflect that you profess the whole vniversall Church before Luthers tyme to haue fallen into many great and gross errours even concerning the Canon of Scripture and consequently that the first vniversall Tradition from the Apostles came to be altered and corrupted and that your forsayd very probable Argument de facto hath fayled if your Heresy were true that the whole Church hath fallen into errour 90. 12. Pag 149. N. 38. You say I must learne of the Church or of some part of the Church or I cannot know any thing Fundamentall or not Fundamentall For how can I come to know that there was such a Man as Christ that he taught such Doctrines that he and his Apostles did such Miracles in confirmation of it that the Scripture is Gods Word vnless I be taught it So then the church is though not a certaine foundation and proof of my Faith yet a necessary introduction to it I confess I haue studyed to find what sense you can haue in these words and can find nothing but contradictions and finally that your owne Tradition cannot be a sufficient ground for our belief of Scripture You say I must learne of the Church or of some part of the Church or I cannot know any thing Fundamentall or not Fundamentall And in particular That Scripture is the Word of God I askeâ— what you meane by the Church or some part of the Church Is your meaning that the Tradition of some part of the Church is sufficient to believe Scripture to be the Word of God Against this you profess every where that the Scripture is to be receyved only vpon vniversall Tradition of all Churches and Times from the Apostles At least will you
belieue the Divell with an infallible Assent for his owne Authority in saying there is one God vnless I belieue him to be infallible But if he proue what he sayes by some evident demonstration I do not belieue him for his Authority but I yield Assent to the demonstration proposed by him for the evidence and certainty of the thing itself proved by such a demonstration and so alwayes infallibility in our Assent requires infallibility in the Ground or Motiue therof As de facto the Divell himself knowes with an infallible internall Assent yea and as I may say feeles to his cost that there is a God but whether you can belieue him with certainty when exteriourly he vtters that or any other Point meerly for his Authority is nothing to our purpose though it seemes you can best diue into his intentions by what you say in your Answer to your Eight Motiue where you say The Divell might perswade Luther from the Masse hoping by doing so to keepe him constanâ— to it or that others would make his disswasion from it an Argument for it as we see Papists doe you should add and as yourself did before you were a Papist and be afrayd of following Luther as confessing himself to haue bene perswaded by the Divell This your strang answer to your owne Motiue I do not confute in this occasion it having bene done already in a litle Treatise intituled Heantomachta or Mr. Chillingworth against himself and in an other called Motives Maintayned Certainly you haue not observed that saying We must not bely the Divell 19. The same Answer I giue to your example of a Geometritian whom in those things which he demonstrates we do not belieue for his Authority but for evidence of his demonstration which is infallible neither did the Author of Charity Maintayned belieue for his owne fallible Authority that he hath written such a Booke but by evidence and infallibility offense And here you should remember your owne words Pag 325. N. 2. Faith is not knowledg no more then three is foure but eminently contained in it so that he that knowes believes and somthing more but he that believes many tymes does not know nay if he doth barely and meerly belieue he doth never know Therfor according to your owne Doctrine he who assents in vertue of some evident demonstration doth know and not belieue for the Authority of another And who sees not that if I belieue a thing for some other reason and not for the Authority of him who affirmes it I cannot be sayd to belieue it for his Authority but I assent to it for that other reason Yea if we consider the matter well when I know one affirmes a thing and yet do not belieue it for his Authority but for some other Motiue or reason I may be sayd of the two rather to disbelieue then belieue him at least I do not belieue him at all for that Point but either some other Person or for some other Reason Wherfor You do but trifle when Pag 138. N. 36. You speake to Charity Maintayned in these words You say we cannot belieue the Church in propounding Canonicall Books if the Church be not vniversally infallible if you meane still as you must doe vnless you play the Sophister not vpon her owne Authority I grant it For we belieue Canonicall Bookes not vpon the Authority of the present Church but vpon vniversall Tradition If you meane not at all and that with reason we cannot belieue these Bockes to be Canonicall which the Church proposes I deny it In these words I say you do but trifle For you know that Charity Maintayned did speake of believing the Church vpon her owne Authority which is so true that you say he must meane so vnless he play the Sophister and what then shall we think you play in imputing to him such a sense wheras you deny not but that his words may be taken in a good sense as indeed they could not be taken otherwise Beside I do not at all belieue the Church when I chance to belieue that which she proposes if I belieue it for some other reason and not for her Authority and therfor it is a contradiction in you to say I belieue the Church at all when I belieue for some other reason as I haue declared aboue You say Pag 35. N. 7. I grant that the meanes to decide Controversyes in Faith and Religion must be indued with an vniversall infallibility in whatsoever it propoundeth for a Divine Truth For if it may be false in any one thing of this nature in any one thing which God requires men to belieue we can yield vnto it but a wavering and fearfull assent Is not this the very same thing which Charity Maintayne sayd If now one should turne your owne words against yourself and say Indeed if you had sayd we can yield vnto it but a wavering and fearfull Assent in any thing for its owne sake I should willingly grant your consequence But if you meane not at all I deny it Would you not say that he did but cavill Remember then Quod tibi non vis fieri alteri ne seceris But let vs goe forward 20. The second difference between learned and vnlearned Catholikes and both those kinds of Protestants is this You say Pag 87 N. 94. The Scripture is not so much the words as the sense If therfor Protestants haue no certaine Meanes or Rule to know the true sense of Scripture to them it cannot be Scripture nor the infallible Word of God But I haue proved that Protestants haue no such certaine Meanes or Rule Therfor we must inferr that by pretending to follow Scripture alone they do not rely vpon any certaine ground and that Scripture to them cannot be an infallible Rule And this being true even in respect of the learned the Faith of the vnlearned who depend on them cannot possibly be resolved into any infallible ground wheras the vnlearned amongst Catholikes believing their Pastors who rely on the Church which both is and is believed to be infallible their Faith comes to be resolved into a ground really infallible The like Argument may be taken from Translations Additions Detractions and Corruptions of Scripture of which the learned Protestants can haue no certainty and much less the vnlearned and so their Faith is not builded vpon any stable Foundation and consequently the vncertaintyes which we object to you touch the very generall grounds of your Faith and not only the particular meanes by which they are applyed to every one 21. 3. I appeale to the conscience of every vnpartiall man desirous to saue his soule whether in Prudence one ought not to preferr the Roman Church and those who agree with Her before any companie of Sectaryes who disagreeing among themselves cannot all belieue aright and yet none of them is able to satisfy why their particular sect should be preferred before others who pretend Scripture alone no less then they Of
vncertaintyes For the Objection returnes vpon you many wayes 38. Answer I assure you Charity Maintayned hath never felt nor ever will feele any such repentance as you mention having never bene taught to repent him self of a good deed as it seemes you confess his to haue bene while you say to him I feare you will repent the tyme Do you feare He will repent the Object of feare is some apprehended evill and therfor your feare that He will repent must imply that it were ill done of him to repent and consequently that he must persist in what he wrote and so He may well do for any thing you bring to the contrary all your Objections being already answered by the Ground which I layed That more certainty and strength is required in the generall Principles of Faith than in that particular meanes or Act wherby such Principles are applyed in Practise to the Person of every one as for example we are certaine by Revelation certitudine Fidei that he who persevers vnto the end shall be saved but that every particular person doth performe on his part what is requisite to persever we haue no revelation nor absolute certainty God having so disposed that we ought to work our salvation with feare and trembling The further reason wherof may be because if the generall Grounds or Meanes appointed by God were in themselves fallible and vncertaine this want would be ascribed to God himself as if he had not given vs sufficient Meanes for our salvation but for the particular application made by free Acts of men or by Meanes of second causes all the defect is imputed to them alone and in no wise to God who on his part hath provided Meanes certaine and sufficient as will appeare herafter by answering all the particulars which you alledg wherby it will be found that no vncertainty can be derived from the generall Principles or Grounds of our Faith as it must proceed from the very Grounds of Protestants but only from the fallibility infirmity or fault of men in particular cases 39. To this Ground I add this other briefe consideration That it is one thing to treate whether or no a Sacrament be valid and an other whether the defect of an invalid Sacrament may be supplyed by some other Meanes For example Intention of the Ministers is vniversally necessary to the validity of a Sacrament in the sense I haue declared but whether or when or to whom Sacraments be so necessary that they cannot be supplyed by other Meanes must be resolved by descending to particular cases as will appeare after a while and will shew the weakness of the Objections which you extend to no fewer numbers or Sections than the 63.64.65.66.67.68.69.70.72.73.74 And yet all are the same which we haue toucht and answered already as that we cannot be sure that he who absolves the Penitent or consecrates the Eucharist is a true Priest because we cannot know that he or any other was baptized with due Matter Forme and Intention and for the like reasons we are not certaine that the Bishop who ordained him was a true Bishop But as I sayd these vncertaintyes neither are nor can be so great as you make them nor do they touch the Principles of our Faith but are as it were matters of Fact and concerne only the application of those generall Grounds to particular occasions for which we haue no Revelation or certainty of Faith which assures vs only that there shall be alwayes in Gods Church a succession of Bishopes and Priests and this is enough to shew that your Objections are but exaggerations and panick feares as if of many millions not twenty should be true Prists which in effect is to say that God hath no Providence over his Church but leaves all things to chance or the weakness and possible malice of men You teach that we cannot be certain of the Decrees of Councells because we are not certaine that the Pope who must confirme them is true Pope you should say the contrary There haue bene true generall Councells Therfor they who celebrated them were true Bishops and the Pope who confirmed them was true Pope Thus also we are sure true Priests haue Power to absolue repentent sinners and true Bishops to or dayne Priests but not that this or that in particular is a true Priest or Bishop or that every particular Penitent hath true sorrow Otherwise every one must be sure that he is in state of grace and salvation making no distinction between the vertue of Hope and Faith but must with absolute certainty belieue and not only hope that his sins are forgiven And therfor Charity Maintayned did not object against Protestants who belieue Christian Faith to be absolutely infallible and with whom He had to doe and not with such as you are whatsoever vncertainty but sayd expressly that their Faith did rely vpon an vncertaine Ground and therefore could not be infallible And it is strang that you N. 68. should speake to vs in this manner I hope you will preach no more against others for making mens salvation depend vpon fallible and vncertaine Grounds least by judging others you make your selves and your owne Church inexcusable who are strangly guilty of this fault aboue all the men and Churches of the world I say it is strang this should be objected by you that we make mens salvation depend vpon vncertaine Grounds who profess that no Article of Christian Faith is to vs certainly true and therfor though one were certaine that he did vse all meanes prescribed by Christian Religion for attaining salvation yet he might misse therof which is plaine blasphemy putting our want of salvation not vpon any defect in men but vpon the vncertainty of Christian Religion and of the Grounds which Allmighty God hath provided for the belief therof You say indeed N. 70. that we belieue the Church to be infallible only vpon prudentiall Motives but this we vtterly deny For we belieue this Point for the same Reason for which we belieue other Articles of Christian Faith which I haue proved Chap 1. to rely vpon most infallible Grounds 40. In your N. 71.72 you object no more than what I haue answered more than once That although particular men may be moved to accept Christian belief for some immediate reason or Motiue not infallible of it selfe yet still their Faith may be resolved into an infallible Ground which is Divine Revelation proposed by the Church of God certainly acknowledged to be infallible as I haue shewed and that no particular Translations can prejudice vs who submit to the Church which God will never permit to be deceyved by them 41. For the vulgate Translation of which you speake N. 74.75.76.77.78.79 I need say for the present only this That it being approved in the sacred Councell of Trent we are sure that it cannot contayne any least Point against Faith or good manners And if by the fault of the Printers or by any other meanes any
attaine Faith by the mere consideration of Gods creatures or by the Law written in our harts or by immediate extraordinary lights but by the Ministery of the Church and therfor Ephes 4.11.12 Pastours and Doctours are sayd to be given to the consummation of the Saints vnto the worke of the Ministerie vnto the edifying of the Body of Christ Which declares that men cannot be made members of the Body of Christ but by the Ministery of Pastours and Doctours And even those Protestants who rely vpon the private Spirit for knowing true Scripture will grant that the Spirit is not given but when the Churches Ministery precedes as an Introduction or as Potter Pag 139. speakes the present Church workes vpon all whithin the Church to prepare induce and perswade the mynd as an outward meanes to imbrace the Faith to reade and belieue the Scriptures 71. It remaymes then that not Scripture but the Church which was before Scripture and from which we receaue it must be the necessary meanes in the ordinary course which God hath appointed to produce Faith and decide Controversyes in Religion and consequently must be infallible according to your owne Doctrine Pag 35. N. 7. that the meanes to decide Controversyes in Faith and Religion must be indued with an vniversall infallibility in whatsoever it propoundeth for a divine truth For if it may be false in any one thing of this nature in any thing which God requires men to belieue we can yield vnto it but a wavering and fearfull assent in any thing 72. 5. I vrge the Argument of Charity Maintayned Part 1. Chap 2. N. 23. Pag 69. If Protestants will haue Scripture alone for their Judge or Rule let them first produce some Text of Scripture affirming that by the entring therof infallibility went out of the Church 73. To this you answer Pag 104. N. 138. In these words As no Scripture affirmeth that by the entring of it infallibility went out of the Church so neither do we neither haue we any need to do so But we say that it continued in the Church even togeather with the Scriptures so long as Christ and his Apostles were living and then departed God in his Providence having provided a plaine and infallilde Rule to supply the defect of Living and infallible Guides Gertainly if your cause were good so great a wit as yours is would devise better Arguments to maintaine it We can shew no Scripture afsirming infallibility to haue gone out of the Church therfore it is infallible Some what like to his discourse that said it could not be proved out of Scripture that the King of Sweden was dead therfore he is still Living Me thinks in all reason you that chaleng privileges and exemption from the condition of men which is to be subject to errour you that by vertue of this privilege vsurpe Authority over mens consciences should produce your Letter-patents from the King of Heaven and shew some express warrant for this Authority you take vpon you otherwese you know the Rule is vbi contrarium non manifestè probatur presumitur pro libertate 74. This Answer is easily confuted First I must returne it vpon yourself with thankes for your voluntary express grant That no Scripture afsirmes that by entring of it infallibility went out of the Church Remember your owne saying that there are only two Principles common to Christians Reason and Scripture Seing then it is evident that meere naturall Reason cannot determine any thing in this matter and that you grant it cannot be proved by Scripture that infallibility went out of the Church by the entring of Scripture what remaines but that you haue no proofe at all for it And since that you directly grant infallibility to haue continued for some tyme in the Church even togeather with the Scriptures and that neither by reason nor Scripture you can proue that it ever departed from Her we must of necessity conclude that she still enjoyes that priviledge most necessary for deciding controversyes belonging to infallible Christian faith You say God hath provided a plaine and infallible Rule to supply the defect of living and infallible Guides But we haue proved the contrary That Scripture is not plaine in all Points belonging to Faith and though it were so yet yourself confess in this place that infallibility in the Church may stand with the sufficiency and plaines of Scripture and therfore you cannot inferr scripture is sufficient therfore the Church is not infallible You teach Pag 101. N. 126. That though all the necessary parts of the Gospell be contained in every one of the foure Gospells yet they which had all the Bookes of the New Testament had nothing superfluous for it was not superfluous but profitable that the same thing should be sayd divers tymes and be teslifyed by divers witnesses Therfore the Testimony of the Church if she were supposed to be infallible might be profitable although Scripture were cleare and sufficient Protestants pretend that we can proue matters belonging to Faith only by Scripture Wherfore you must either proue by some plaine Text of Scripture that infallibility dyed as I may say with the Apostles or never affirme herafter any such groundless voluntary and pernicious Proposition From Scripture we learne that with out repentance are the gifts of God Rom 11.29 And it is an Axiome of naturall Reason Melior est conditio possidentis God once bestowed vpon the Church the gift of infallibility and therfore without some evident positiue proofe you are not to depriue her of it And we are not obliged to produce any other Argument except to plead Possession which you cannot take from vs without some evident proofe to the contrary And you being the Actor and we the Defendents not wee but you must prove and performe what you exact of vs to shew some express warrant c though it be also most true that we haue great plenty of convincing proofes for the infallibility of Gods Church 75. As for your Instance about the King of Sweden I belieue you will loose your jeast whē I shall haue asked whether this were not a good Argument we can know by Scripture alone whether the King of Sweden be aliue or dead but we know by Scripture he was once Living and know not by any Scripture that he is dead Therfore for ought we know he is aliue and so your example returnes vpon yourself that seing you know by Scripture infallibility to haue bene once in the Church and that by no Scripture which with you must be the only proofe in this case you know that it ever departed from Her you must belieue that still she enjoyes it As for vs we challeng no Priviledges but such as were granted by our Saviour to his Church and which we proue by the same Arguments wherby the Apostles and their Successors proue their Authority as shall be shewed herafter and the Rule Ubi contrarium manifestè non probatur praesumitur pro libertate
purpose in these words We vtterly deny the Church to be an Infallible Guide in Fundamentalls for to say so were to oblige ouerselves to find some certaine society of men of whom we might be certaine that they neither do nor can erre in Fundamentalls nor in declaring what is Fundament all And consequently to make any Church an Infallible Guide in Fundamentalls would be to make it Infallible in all things which she proposes and requires to be believed To which Assertion of yours I subsume thus But there must be alwayes a visible Church discernable from all false Congregations which Church cannot erre in Fundamentall Points of Faith Therfore there must alwayes be a discernable Church Infallible in all things she proposes and requires to be believed 83. Thirdly It is deduced That even according to the most rigid Protestants God doth not ordinarily affoard his Grace for bringing men to Faith by the only consideration of his Creatures or by the Law written in our harts or by other secet meanes but by teaching preaching and the like By which consideration we haue not only confuted what you sayd Pag 100. N. 123. that men might be made Faithfull without either necessity of Scripture or Church but that also is answered which you Object Pag 356. N. 38. where you aske Why should not I be made a true and Ortodoxe Christian by believing all the Doctrine of Christ though I cannot deriue my descent from a Perpetuall Succession that believed it before me To which demand the Answer is very easy and convincing to all such as against the Pelagians belieue true Christian Faith to be the Gift of God and producible only by his speciall Grace and Inspiration which he gives only by the meanes appointed in his Holy providence that is Preaching Teaching and Ministery of his visible Church as we haue heard Calvin saying God inspires Faith by Meanes of the Gospell as Paul tells vs that Faith comes by hearing And if any will take vpon them to belieue by force of naturall ReasoÌ„ or by RevelatioÌ„ in Scripture vnderstood by their owne wit aÌ„d interpretatioÌ„ they shall be sure to be miserably deceyved aÌ„d be far enough from exercising any true Act of Divine supernaturall Faith necessary to Salvation Now the Church by Divine Institution cannot consist without a Succession of Bishops from the Apostles to the worlds end and therfore God gives not his Assistance for the production of true Faith except by the Ministery of such a Church as is governed by Bishops though no man denyes but that he might haue done otherwise by ordaining and ordering another course of his holy Providence as Protestants will grant that God might haue saved men without Scripture though in their opinion de facto he will not do it but that it even taken alone is not only sufficient but necessary to salvation 84. Fourthly I deduce That the Premises considered it may justly appeare to every Christian very strange that Pag 150. N. 41. having cited these words of Charity Maintained If the Church be not an Infallible teacher why are we commanded to seeke to heare to obey the Church You would answer in this manner For commands to sâ—eke the Church I haue not yet met with any and I belieue you if you were to shew them would be yourself to seeke But yet if you could produce some such we might seeke the Church to many good purposes without supposing her a guide Infallible And then for hearing and obeying the Church I would faine know whether none may be heard and obeyed but those that are infallible Whether particular churches Governours Pastors Parents be not to be heard and obeyed Or whether all these be infallible I wonder you will thrust vpon vs so often these worne out objections without taking notice of their Answers But all this is clearly confuted by what hath bene sayd already And 1. What Christian would not wonder as I sayd to heare you affirme that you haue not met with any commands to seeke the Church If the Ministery of the Church be the ordinary Meanes to attaine Faith and as even yourself confess a necessary Introduction to it if Faith come by hearing if in Her only we con expect to find true Pastours and Doctours if it be necessary to know her as Calvin confesses if Faith remission of sins and salvation cannot be had except by her Meanes I beseech you are not these sufficient commands to seeke Her or rather may we not call this command of seeking her either the command of Commands or els a command implyed in all the commands of Believing Hoping Loving Repenting and seeking salvation seing these cannot be had but by seeking and finding her and is it not evident that if we be obliged to attaine an End we are bound to seeke out the Meanes which are necessary for that End Nay do you not speake inconsequently to yourself while you deny not but that there is a command to heare and obey the Church and yet deny that there is any command to seeke her It seemes you are indeed a child of Adam who would hide yourself from God and from those Superiours whom he hath appointed to guide and governe you in his place If one belieue that there are some whom by Gods appointment he is to heare and obey in order to Heaven and Happyness is it not his part or hath he not a most strict obligation to do his best endeavour to find out such persons or such a Congregation But say you we might seeke the Church to many good purposes without supposing Her a Guide Infallible No doubt but speaking in generall we may seeke one without supposing him to be a Guide Infallible as one may seeke some lost sheepe such as you are to bring them from Heresy to the Church and from Socinianisme to true Reason Which will not be guided by itself but by a Superiour Maister appoynted by God without supposing them to be Infallible Guides But when we seeke a Church from which alone we con learne with certainty required to Faith what Scripture is Canonicall and all Points of Faith necessary to salvation neither of which we can learne from Scripture we must suppose that Church to be Infallible Thus all they who belieue the Scripture to be a Rule of Faith whether totall or not consequently belieue it to be infallible And Pag 35. N. 7. you confess that the Meanes to decide controversyes in Faith and Religion must be indued with an Vniversall Infallibility in whatsoever it propoundeth for a Divine Truth And if the Church were not Infallible one of those many good purposes which you fancy to yourself in seeking Her would be that we should certainly expose ourselves to danger of being perniciously deceived in matters concerning Eternall Salvation seing as I sayd we haue no other certaine and sufficient Meanes to belieue scripture and other Articles of Faith And now I beseech you tell me whether we heare and obey all particular
Churches Governours Pastours and Parents as Judges of Controversyes in Faith and Religion and the only Meanes to propose to vs all Points necessary to be believed Certainly if we were obliged to heare and obey them in so eminent a degree as we are not we ought also to belieue them to be infallible even according to your owne Assertion repeated in divers places of your Book I wonder you and other Protestants will be still thrusting vpon vs this worne-out Objection without taking notice of the Answer which hath bene so often given and which shewes that your Objection tumes against yourself And as for our obligation to seeke the Church none can speake more home than Dr. Field one of the chiefest Protestant Divines of England in his Treatise of the Church in his Epistle Dedicatory to the Lor◠Archbishop teaching expressly that there remaineth nothing for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to search out which among all the societyes in the world is that Church of the Living God which is the Pillar and Ground of Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her directions and rest in her judgment 85. Fiftly I know not whether you speake more vntruly or perniciously or giue me leaue to speake truth more ridiculously when Pag 105. N. 139. you say to Charity Maintayned You must know there is a wide difference between being infallible in Fundamentalls and being an infallible Guide even in Fundamentalls Dr. Potter sayes That the Church is the former that is There shall be some men in the world while the world lasts which erre not in Fundamentals for otherwise there should be no Church For to say the Church while it is the Church may erre in Fundamentalls implies contradiction and is all one as to say The Church while it is the Church may not be the Church So that to say that the Church is infallible in Fundamentalls signifyes no more but this There shall be a Church in the world for ever Thus you And thus the sons of men and children of darkness take pleasure to seeme witty by jeasting sacrilegiously in things belonging to God The Church cannot erre in Fundamentall Ponts because if she erre in such Points she is no more a Church Why say you not thus All men are infallibly true because if they erre they cease to be true in that wherin they erre Mr. Chillingworth is immortall and cannot dy because if he dy he is no more Mr. Chillingworth and happy had it bene for him and others seduced by his sophistry si non fuisset natus homo ille Thus also you may say That God when he threatned and decreed that Adam should be mortall and dye if he transgressed his command at the same tyme even after his transgression he was immortall and could not dye because if he died he should no more be Adam To be immortall in common sence signifyes a certainty not to dye and not ridiculously that if he dy he doth exist no more and so not to exist implyes the direct contrary of being immortall and supposes one to be mortall and therfore to say The Church is infallible because if she erre she is no more a Church comes to this that she is fallible which is directly contrary to infallible For as we sayd of immortality so in proportion infallibility must signify an assurance not to erre and the Church to be infallible in Fundamentall Points must signify that she cannot erre in them and so not loose her being by such errour which is plainly opposite to your saying that she may erre and therby cease to be You erre therfore in not distinguishing between Actum primum and secundum or Potentiam and Actum as Philosophers speake To say a Church is infallible or cannot erre or be destroyed signifyes some antecedent either extrinsecall or intrinsecall Principle or Power preserving Her in such manner as that such a Principle cannot actually consist with errour And therfor you speake not like a Philosopher in saying The Church is infallible in Fundamentalls that is There shall be some men in the world while the world lasts which erre not in Fundamentalls passing ab actuad potentiam and proving that men are infallible because de facto they erre not wheras men may chance not to erre and yet not be infallible You haue heard Whitaker saying We beleeue to the comfort of our soules that Christs Church hath continued and never shall faile so long as the world indureth and we account it a prophane Heresy to teach otherwise What comfort I pray can it be to soules that the Church may erre in Fundamentall Points yet so as she remaynes no more a Church which Whitaker accounts a prophane Heresy Every one conceaves infallibility to be a favour and Priviledge You tell vs the plaine contrary That infallibility in the Church for the most principall and necessary Points of Faith doth not signify that she may not erre in them but that if she erre she must inevitably perish or dye by such a damnable errour and become as it were the Divells martyr by dying for so bad a cause Which surely is no favour or Priviledge especially if we call to mynd an other Doctrine of yours that Errours not Fundamentall are compatible with the Being of a Church which is a greater favour than to be destroyed And therfore how can infallibility in Fundamentall Points in your way of explication that if she erre in such Points she ceaseth to be a Church be a Priviledg or Favour seing no body will say that fallibility and errour in Points not Fundamentall which yet destroy not the Church are favours Other men conceaue that these Propositions are convertible Whosoever is infallible cannot erre and whosoever cannot erre is infallible But you contrary to all other mens Logick say the Church is infallible because she may erre damnably and desperatly and therby loose her Being 86. When Protestants teach That the Church cannot perish but is infallible in Fundamentall Points they make a difference between Points Fundamentall and not Fundamentall and teach That she may faile and de facto hath fayled in these but cannot faile in those But you in opposition to all others maintayne That the Church may erre both in Fundamentall and not Fundamentall Articles from whence every one would inferr that she is absolutly fallible in both and infallible in neither or if infallible in either in both And yet you haue found a devise that though she erre in both those kinds of Articles she is infallible in one of them only that is in Fundamentall Points And fallible in Points not Fundamentall A rare piece of Philosophy To erre damnably and Fundamentally and yet be infallible Yea which is most admirable to be infallible because she erres most deeply and be fallible because she erres in matters of lesser moment Beside other Protestants put a difference between the vniversall Church is infallible ād cannot erre in
others might yet in himselfe and to himself be infallible but he could not be a Guide to others A man or a church that were invisible so that none could know how to repayre to it for direction could not be an infallible Guide and yet he might be himself infallible This I say is retorted For whosoever is infallible in him selfe is fit to be an infallible Guide to others per se loquendo and in actu primo and needs only that accidētall impediments bee removed as it happeneth in our case the Church being visible and spred over the whole world So that she can be hidden to no body but is furnished with all meanes of communicating her Doctrine to others Yourself and Protestants grant that the Church is a necessary introduction to Faith which she could not be if she were invisible or that none could know how to repayre to her for direction And then Protestants teaching that she is infallible in Fundamentall points it followes that she may be an infallible Guide in such points and in all other according to your owne inference And so I conclude that your difference of the Churches being infallible and an infallible Guide is vanished into nothing But enough of this Let vs now proceed to other Reasons proving the necessity of an infallible Guide 89. I proue the infallibility of the Church by confuting a Reason or similitude much vrged by our Adversaryes That to him who knowes the way a Guide is not necessary And therfore the Scripture being a plaine Rule for all necessary Articles of Faith no living Guide will be necessary 90. But this Argument is many wayes defectiue 1. We retort it Seing it hath bene proved that Scripture alone is not a sufficient Rule a Living Guide must be necessary Certainly if the whole Bible had bene put into severall mens hands without any precedent knowne Tradition Declaration or Ministery of the Church it would haue fallen out that in the most important Mysteryes of Christian Religion which now all are obliged to belieue for example The chiefest Articles of the Creed Sacraments c. scarcely any one would haue agreed with another and much more had it bene impossible for them by the sole evidence of Scripture to joyne in the same Idea or frame of a Church Suppose then the Bible had bene offered to some Vnderstanding Pagan wholy ignorant of Christian Religion and Doctrine do you thinke he would haue bene able to gather from the bare words of Scripture the same meaning or Articles which Christians now belieue by the help of Tradition instruction and preaching I say he would never have fallen vpon the same meaning of the words whether he did belieue them to be true or no as we see Protestants themselves cannot agree Which is a signe that the words only of Scripture do not evidently signify those Mysteryes which Christians belieue them to containe Otherwise every one who vnderstands the words would vnderstand the true sense as ordinarily we vnderstand the meaning of other writings wherin we see men do seldome disagree And the more we consider the force vse and necessity of Tradition the more we shall be constrained to ranke it among those things which are better knowen by wanting than we can apprehend by alwayes enjoying them If men did do things only by the Booke even in mechanicall arts or handy-crafts how different and vnlike works would every one take from the precepts learned only by reading and with how much study and difficulty would that be done and how different would they be both from one another and from those which artificers do now by custome and tradition worke with great ease and vniformity I doubt whether you would trust an apothecary taught only by his booke or pharmacopaeia without any master at all 91. Secondly If one know a way as perfectly as it is capable to be knowen but that indeed it is such as there cannot possibly be given any Rule or Direction how to find or walk in it without danger of errour such a knowledg of such a way would not be sufficient of itself but a guide would be necessary to sind and walke in it without danger Now we haue shewed not only that the Scripture containes not all points necessary to be believed for which therfor we stand in need of a guide but also that there is no certaine infallible Rule how to know certainly the meaning of those truths which it containes which we proved out of Protestants themselves and by the many hard and intricate Rules which they give for that purpose and by their perpetuall and irreconciliable differences which could not happen if they had any such cleare and certaine Rules wherin agreeing they must needs agree among themselves Que sunt eadem vni tertio sunt eadem inter se Therfore beside scripture which you compare to a way there must be a living Judg to guide vs in that way 92. Thirdly You teach That Scripture is a plaine way in this sense that although we cannot either by it or any other Meanes know what points in particulat be Fundamentall yet because all such Truths and many more are evident in Scripture whosoever knowes all that is evident shall besure to know all that is necessary or Fundamentall Now this very Doctrine shewes that Scripture alone cannot be a plaine and sufficient way For to know precisely and certainly all evident places of Scripture is impossible to many and of obligation to none as I declared elswhere and therfore the End which is to know all necessary points and can be attayned by this Meanes alone cannot be of obligation which to affirme is absurd as if one should say points necessary to be knowen are not necessary to be knowen By a Living Guide this difficulty is avoyded we being sure that the Church will not faile to propose in due tyme all that shall be necessary without imposing on mens Consciences heavy and vngrounded burthens 93. Fourthly There is a great and plaine disparity betweene the knowing of a way by our corporall eyes and finding out a Truth by our vnderstanding the eye of our soule Our senses are naturally necessarily and immoveably determined to their objects One who is supposed to know his way perfectly may Voluntarily take an other way but cannot therfore be sayd to mistake his owne It passes not so with our vnderstanding except in some prime principles of Reason evident of themselves In other points which either are elevated above the naturall forces of humane capacity or haue an appearance of being contrary to it or crosse our will or cary with them a repugnance to the naturall dictates and inclinations of flesh and bloud our vnderstanding is apt and ready to mistake or be misled as daily experience teaches and therfore stands in need of some assisting help and Authority believed to be infallible to strengthen and settle it against all encounters and temptations It is your owne Assertion Pag 329. N.
7. that the Points which we belieue should not be so evidently certaine as to necessitate our vnderstanding to an Assent that so there might be some Obedience in Faith which can hardly haue place where there is no possibility of disobedience as there is not when the vnderstanding does all and the will nothing Now the Religion of protestants though it be much more credible than yours yet is not pretended to haue the absolute evidence of sense or demonstration Behold a confessed difference between one who knowes a way by evidence of sense and an other who believes a way or Rule only by Faith The former needs no command of the will nor any guide but the latter needs a guide and you confess he needs the command of the will which were not needfull if the way which is Holy Scripture were so plaine as you pretend and if the vnderstanding must depend on the will for believing Points which seeme evident in Scripture that there might be some place for obedience how shall the weakness and mutability of the will it self be established except by some other infallible Living Authority And therfore your Argument proves nothing because it proves too much that as one who knowes and sees his way neeeds no helpe of his will or of Guide or any other particular assistance so for attaining the true meaning of Scripture we need no interpreter no diligence even such as Protestants prescribe as skill in languages conferring of places c though 2 Pet 1.21 it be saied Not by mans will was prophecie brought at any time But the holy men of God spake inspired with the Holy Ghost Which sequeles being very false you must acknowledg a great disparity between the evident knowing of a way and vnderstanding Scripture To which purpose I may well alledg your owne words Pag 137. N. 19. If we consider the strang power that education and prejudices instilled by it haue over even excellent vnderstandings we may well imagine that many Truths which in themselves are revealed plainly enough are yet to such or such a man prepossest with contrary opinions not revealed plainly I pray you tell vs what education or prejudices could hinder a man from finding that way which he is supposed perfectly to know and which it is not in his power to misse by ignorance though as I fayd he may voluntary goe out of it You must therfore acknowledg that your similitude or parity is nothing but a disparate and disparity 94. Fiftly Let a man be never so perfect in the knowledg of his way he shall never come to his journeyes end if he want strength to walke that way Now Faith being the gift of God and requiring the assistance of Grace exceeds the strength of humane wit or will and this Grace being not given but by the Ministery of the Church as I haue declared and as we haue heard Calvin saying God inspires Faith but by the instrument of the Gospell as Paul teacheth that Faith comes by hearing It followes that none can in the ordinary course receiue strength to vnderstand and know the way which you say is Scripture without the Ministery of the Church or a Living Guide and so it appeares many wayes that your Argument or similitude proves nothing against vs but very much against yourself 95. Tenthly and lastly I proue the vniversall infallibility of the Church by answering an Argument or removing an impediment which Potter objects as if some Catholique Doctours held not the Church to be vniversally infallible This the Doctour Pag 149. pretends to proue out of Dr. Stapleton in particular as if he did deny the Church to be infallible in Poynts not Fundamentall to which purpose he cites him Princip Doctrinal Lib 8. Contr 4. Cap 15. But this is clearly confuted by Charity Maintayned Part 2. Chap 5. Pag 127.128.129.130 shewing that Dr. Stapleton doth not oppose Poynts Fundamentall to other revealed Truths or Points of Faith not Fundamentall as if the infallibility of the Church did extend itself only to Fundamentall Articles but he distinguishes between Points revealed and belonging to Faith and Points not revealed nor belonging to Faith but to Philosophy or curious disputes either not called in Question amongst Catholikes as if they were matters belonging to Religion or if they chance to be such yet are not defined by the Church For if once they be controverted and the Church giue her sentence he expressly teaches in the same place that the infallibility of the Church hath place in those Points which are called in Question or are publikely practised by the Church As also Rel Cont 1. Q. 3. Art 6. He expressly saith that certaine Doctrines are either primary Principles of Faith or els though not primary yet defined by the Church and so as if they were primary Others are Conclusions deduced from those Principles but yet not desined Of the first kind are the Articles of Faith and whatsoever is defined in Councels against Heretiques c Of the second are questions which either belong to the hidden workes of God or to certaine most obscure places of Scripture which are beside the Faith and of which we may be ignorant without losse of Faith yet they may be modestly and fruitfully disputed of And afterward he teaches that whatsoever the Church doth vniversally hold either in doctrnie or manners belongs to the foundation of Faith And proves it out of S. Austine Serm 14. de verb Domini Ep 28.89.96 who calls the custome of the Church Ecclesiae morem fundatissimum Fidem fundatissimam consuetudinem Ecclesiae fundatissimam Authoritatem stabilissimam fundatissimae Ecclesiae The most grounded practise of the Church and most grounded Faith the most grounded custome of the Church the most firme Authority of the most grounded Church Could any thing be more cleere to shew that according to Dr. Stapleton the infallibility of the Church reacheth further then to those Points which you call Fundamentall and that it belongs to the very foundation of Faith that we belieue whatsoever the Church holds And that it is not lawfull for any to dispute against such determinations of the Church Which doth overthrow your distinction of Poynts Fundmentall and not Fundamentall though you alledg the Authority of S. Thomas 2.2 Q. 2. Art 5. and Stapleton in favour therof For S. Thomas in the very place you cited after he had sayd that there are some objects of Faith which we are bound explicitely to belieue addeth that we are bound to belieue all other Poynts when they are sufficiently propounded to vs as belonging to Faith Thus far Charity Maintaynâ—d Wherby it is manifest that according to Stapleton the Church cannot erre in defining any point to be revealed which is not so or that it is not revealed if indeed it be so and consequently that she is vniversally infallible in all points belonging to Faith whether they be of them selves Fundamentall or not Fundamentall I say of themselves for in sensu
Circle into which we are not entered while first we belieue the Church for such Arguments as I haue spoken of and afterward embrace Scripture for the Churches Authority and if we be forced to proue the Church by Scripture it is propter incredulitatem vestram for your incredulity and not because indeed it is needfull of itself Whatsoever you object against vs in this way will be found vpon examination to impugne the infallibility of the Apostles and Primitiue Church and to proue that Insidels converted to Christianity in vertue of such Arguments as I haue touched were rather deluded than converted 3. If any object that although what we haue sayd be true of the true Church yet it remaines to be proved that the Roman Church is the true Church 4. I answer For our present purpose it suffices that the true Church be proved to be infallible without descending to other particular disputes in this place Though somthing I haue touched already This is cleare That neither Protestants nor any of our new Sectaryes can so much as pretend to the true Church if they grant her to be infallible since they belieue their owne Church to be fallible The same I might say of the Gift of working Miracles of which our Saviour saith Marc vlt Vers 17. Them that belieue these signes shall followe They shall cast out Divells c On which place Calvin in Harmonia confesses that the grace of Miracles is promised not to every one but to the whole body of the Church And in the marginall notes of the English Bible printed An 1576. vpon Joan 14. Vers 12. He that believes in me the works that I doe he shall doe and greater our adversaryes confess and say that this is referred to the whole body of the Church in whom this vertue doth shine for ever Luther also To 7. Lib de Judaeis c vrgeth against the Jewes the daily confirmation of our Christian Faith by Miracles in all Ages since Christ saying From God we haue learned and receaved as an everlasting word and verity of God for these thousand fiue hundred yeares confessed and confirmed by Miracles and signes How then can it be sayd that Miracles haue ceased ever since the Apostles tyme Now it is evident that this Gift is lasting in our Church and in our Church only The same appeares in the Motiue of Succession of Bishops Antiquity Unity perpetuall Existence Conversion of Nations which Propertyes we manifestly proue to be wanting in all Sects In England Protestants did once pretend a Succession of Bishops whose institution they pretended to hold as Divine But this pretence is to little purpose for them For 1. It was no vniversall consent but opposed by many even in England by Scotland France Holland Germany and other Protestant Congregations 2. They wanted both true Ordination and Succession and so could not be true Bishops 3. They held it not necessary but that they who reject them may be saved and it is strang that a Church rejecting and impugning a Divine Institution can hope for salvation yea even by this they either acknowledg themselves to haue had no absolute certainty that Episcopacy is de Jure Divino orels they speake very inconsequently and vnchristianly that without them there may be true Churches and salvation Who would not wonder to reade in Dr. Andrewes the pretended Bishop of Winchester and a prime man among Protestants in England these words directed to the French Hugonot Molin Respons ad Epist 2. Petri Molinaei Quia hîc idem nobiseum c I make no doubt but you are of the same opinion with vs in this matter If without offence you can profess so much you shall doe a thing very gratfull to vs if you cannot you shall performe a thing not vngratefull if for tyme to come you meddle not with our affaires For in the condition in which you are it will be hard both to please your owne and not displease ours Neither doth it follow if ours be divini juris of divine right that either silvation cannot be had or the Church cannot stand without it A strang Divinity and fortitude and zeale in a Bishop not to dislike dissembling in a thing believed to be Juris Divini least one offend his parishioners or that it is not damnable to impugne a thing which is Juris Divini But what doth Molin answer to this Divinity Heare him Epist 3. Non potui dicere c I could not say that the primacy of Bishops is Iuris Divini of divine right but that I should haue accused of Heresy our Church which hath shed so much bloud for Christ For to be obstinate against those things which are of divine right and to oppose the Command of God is plainly Heresy whether it be in a thing concerning either Faith or discipline And besides I must haue overthrowne that Principle by which our Religion doth chiefly defend itself against Papistery That all things which are Iuris Divint of Divine Lawe are contayned sufficiently and evidently in Holy Scripture I beseech the Reader to obserue two maine Points 1. That it is an Heresy to deny any thing which is Juris Divini of Divine right though it belong only to the discipline of the Church which is very true because whatsoever is against any thing revealed in Scripture is against Faith and damnable to be defended whether it concerne speculation or practise and to hold that it is not damnable to deny a thing sufficiently proposed as revealed by God is plaine insidelity 2. That to say Episcopacy is Juris Divini is to grant that not all things which are Juris Divini are sufficiently and evidently contained in Scripture alone which is the thing I affirmed in the beginning of my second Chapter And so English Protestants who teach Episcopacy to be Juris Divini must either say that some Pointâ—â—â—ealed by God is not evident in Scripture or els renounce their plea for Episcopacy that it is Juris Divini And indeed as long as they hold it not as a Point of Faith and consequently not necessary to be believed it is all one as if they did not hold it to be Juris Divini because in this case nothing is as good as no certainty For it is certaine and a matter of Faith that the true Church must haue Bishops and to deny it is an Heresy in a matter of greatest moment and which strikes at the very roote of Religion neither can any true Church communicate or dissemble or conniue with those Congregations who deny this truth as our English Protestants doe connive and communicate with them and Dr. Andrews expressly sayes may be done yea or with those who hold it to be only probable and the better doctrine though not certaine nor the contrary to be Heresy wheras to affirme that any Article of Faith is only probable is plaine Heresy And in this Point the Divinity of the French Hugonot Molin is better than that of the English
either to be perplexed and doubtfull of Christian Religion or vtterly to forsake it ād become Jewes or Turks Such were Castalio David Georg Ochinus Neuserus Alemannus and others as may be seene exactly set downe in Brierly Tract 2. Cap. 1. Sect. 5. 12. These things considered we must say that if it be once believed against wicked Atheists that there is a God that he hath Providence over his creatures and is to be worshipped in some Religion it is impossible that he can bestow so great Prerogatives vpon the Roman Church and affoard so many forcible and evident Reasons convincing Her to be the true Church and yet that she should not be so indeed For such an errour could not be ascribed to man following the best guidance of evident Reason but to God alone which cannot be affirmed without blasphemy And how is it possible that Gods will should be that we embrace his true Worship and Religion and yet affoard to the contrary errour so great strength of Reason that in all prudence and reason men should embrace not the true but the false Faith and Religion 13. And this may suffice for the present to demonstrate that we are free enough from walking in a circle and that you speake very vntruly when you say Pag 377. N. 59. and in your Answer to the Direction N. 8. and 14. that we can pretend no proofe for the Church but some Texts wherin you contradict even yourself who Pag 66. N. 35. say that our Faith even of the Fundation of all our Faith our Churches Authority is built lastly and wholly vpon prudentiall Motives If wholly vpon prudentiall Motives how do you so often tell vs that we build it only vpon Scripture And that by so doing we run round in a Circle proving Scripture by the Church and the Church by Scripture 14. But now let vs consider a litle whether your pretended Brethren the Protestants can themselves avoyd that which you and they do so vehemently object to vs. First then They who profess to know the private spirit cannot avoyd a Circle while they proue Scripture by that spirit and that spirit by Scripture by which alone according to their Principles they can try whether or no it proceede from God Wherof Ihaue spoken heretofore 15. Secondly they who pretend to know the Scripture by certaine internall criteria or signes found in Scripture itself as light majesty efficacy or as Potter speakes Pag 141. a glorious beame of divine light which shines in Scripture must fall into the same Circle with those men of the private spirit For seing those criteria which they fancy to themselves are nor evident either to sense or naturall reason they must be knowen by some other meanes which can be none except some internall private spirit or Grace within as Potter expressly speakes Pag 141. and Pag 142. saith There is in the Scripture it self light sufficient which the eye of Reason cleared by Grace may discover to be Divine descended from the Father and fountaine of light If then we aske these men why they belieue Scripture to be indued with such light majesty c. seing these things appeare not evidently to any of our senses nor to our vnderstanding as prima principia of naturall Reason which are manifest of themselves their Answer must be that internall Gracē assures vs therof and so this Grace is necessary not only ex parte subjecti or potentiae to assist our soule aboue our naturall forces in order to supernaturall Objects but it is the reason motiue and medium ex parte objecti for which we belieue for other reason these men can giue none and then enters the Argument which I made even now How can they know that this light or spirit is infused by God and proceeds not from some bad spirit except by Scripture and consequently by first knowing Scripture wherby that light must be examined and yet they cannot know scripture except they be first inspired with this light and know it to be a true light and not an illusion which is a manifest Circle placing this light before Scripture and Scripture before this light and finally they are in effect cast vpon the private spirit Catholikes I grant belieue that the particular assistance of the Holy Ghost is necessarie for exercising an Act of Faith but they require it only ex parte potentiae to enable our vnderstanding to assent to an object represented and proposed by Motives sufficient to oblige vs to an infallible Act having for its principall and formall Object the Divine Revelation which Revelation and Motives are adequately and perfectly distinguished from the sayd Assistance as in proportion we belieue by the vertue and strength of the Habit of Faith ex parte potentiae but we do not belieue for it neither is it apprehended or considered or represented to our vnderstanding when we belieue but that which we apprehend moves the Act of our vnderstanding is the reason and motiue for which we beleeue as also the facultie of our vnderstanding is necessary for vs to belieue and yet we do not belieue for but by it And therfore Protestants avoyd a Circle as we evidently do 16. Thirdly As for you who profess to belieue the Scripture for the Church if you be free from an vnprofitable Circle we also who receyue and belieue the Scripture for the Authority of the Church are secured from it for the same reason and therfore you must either acquit vs or condemne yourself though you will never be able to be proved not guilty of vntruth and injustice in objecting to vs alone that very thing of which yourself are guilty 17. But now because in this Controversy about the Church Protestants seeke to make great vse of a distinction between Fundamentall and not Fundamentall Poynts I must in the next Chapter say somthing therof that is wheras Charity Maintayned hath shewed against Dr. Potter the falshood and impertinency of that distinction as it is applyed by Protestants yea and that they contradict themselves therin I will now endeavour to proue that notwithstanding all that you haue written in defense of the Doctour the Arguments of Charity Maintayned remayne in force as also that you in this matter contradict both Protestants and yourself CHAP. VI. ABOVT FVNDAMENTALL AND NOT FVNDAMENTALL POYNTS OF FAITH 1. THis Question concerning Fundamentall and not Fundamentall Poynts of Faith is stated at large by Charity Maintayned Chap 3. N. 2. The summe is Some Points are called Fundamentall or necessary because every one is obliged to know and belieue them expressly and explicitely and Potter Pag 243. speaking of some Points of Faith sayth These are so absolutely necessary to all Christians for attaining the End of our Faith that is the salvation of our soules that a Christian may loose himself not only by a positive erring in them or denying of them but by a pure ignorance or nescience or not knowing of them Other Points are called not
you take away you destroy the vnity of the Church For a Division of that which is essentiall is a plaine destruction Protestants teach the true preaching of the word and due administration of Sacraments to be so essentiall to the Church that without them a Church ceases to be a Church therfore if there be not agreement or Communion in them they cannot be essentially one Church but essentially different and divided one from another This true Principle being setled 4. The first reason which Charity Maintayned Chap 5. Part 1. N. 12. alledges to proue his Assertion is this Seing Schisme consists essentially in leaving the externall Communion of the Visible Church of Christ and that Luther and his Associars did so as he proves by evidence of fact and by the confessions of Protestants Luther saying in Prà efat Oper suorum in the beginning I was alone And Calvin Ep 141. We were forced to make a separation from the whole world besides the sayings of other Protestants it followes that they cannot be excused from Schisme 5. The Answer which may be gathered out of Dr. Potter to this Reason is That they left not the Church but her Corruptions Which evasion Charity Maintayned confutes by willing him to consider that for the present we speake not of Heresy or departing from the Church but of Schisme of leaving her externall Communion which manifestly they did by separating from all Churches and consequently from the Vniversall Church which is the most formall sinne of Schisme And indeed they ought to inferr that the Vniversall Church is not subject to any errour in Doctrine and not tell the world that they forsooke her Communion for her Errours seing her Communion is never to be forsaken and therfore it is not possible that she can giue any cause of such a separation by falling into errour This we learne of S. Austine Cont Parm Lib 2. Chap 11. There is no just necessity to divide Vnity And Ep 48. It is not possible that any may haue just cause to separate their Communion from the Communion of the whole world and call themselves the Church of Christ as if they had separated themselves from the Communion of all Nations vpon just cause And S. Irenaeus Cont Heres Lib 4. C 62. They can not make any so important reformation as the evill of the Schisme is pernicious 6. Secondly Charity Maintayned proves them to be Schismatikes by this Argument Potter teaches that the Catholique Church cannot erre in points of Faith Necessary to salvation and therfore it cannot be damnable to remayne in her Communion although she were falsly supposed to teach some Errours seing they cannot be damnable and consequently cannot yield any necessary cause to leaue her Communion but it is cleare that Luther and the rest left the whole vniversall Church which was extant before them vnder pretense of Errours which cannot be Fundamentall Therfore it is cleare they left Her without any necessary cause Which I confirme by your owne words Pag 220. N. 52. where you say May it please you now at last to take notice that by Fundamentall we meane all and only that which is necessary and then I hope you will grant that we may safely expect salvation in a Church which hath all things Fundamentall to salvation vnless you will say that more is necessary than that which is necessary And Pag 376 N. 57. he that believes all necessary Truth if his life he answerable to his Faith how is it possible he should faile of salvation Therfore say I seing the Church vniversall cannot erre in necessary Points whosoever embraceth her Faith for as much as belongs to Faith cannot faile of salvation vnless you will say that more is necessary then that which is necessary which are your owne words You say also Pag 33. N. 4. If a particular man or Church may hold some particular Errours and yet be a member of the Church vniversall why may not the Church hold some vniversall Errour and yet be shell the Church This parity is none at all yet seing you must make it good I may say much more with all truth and without any dependence vpon your false parity if the Church vniversall may hold some vniversall Errour as you confess she may which yet indeed is impossible and be still the Church why may not a particular man or Church hold some particular errours and yet be a member of the Church vniversall and consequently capable of salvation for as much as concernes his Faith And therfore none can forsake the Church by leaving her Communion and making himself no member of Her for any such errours as are not opposite to a necessary Truth into which kind of errours it is confessed the Church cannot fall To which I may add what yousay Pag 35. N. 7. if some Controversyes may for many Ages he vndetermined and yet in the meane while men be saved why should or how can the Churches being furnisht with effectuall meanes to determine all Controversyes in Religion be necessary to salvation the end itself to which these meanes are ordayned being as experience shewes not necessary O how truly may we say and happy had your progenitors bene if they had done so If for so many Ages before Luthers pretended Reformation but true Schisme men wrought Miracles converted Nations were eminent for Sanctity attained salvation and are esteemed Saints in Heaven by our Adversaryes and this in the belief and profession of those Points which Catholikes now professe how could any Reformation or separation be necessary since the end itself of salvation to which all meanes are ordained was not necessary but was attained without any such Reformation or separation 7. Like to this Argument of Charity Maintayned is another which N. 22. he tooke from these words of Potter Pag 155. It is comfort enough for the Church that the Lord in mercy will secure her from all capitall dangers and conserue her on earth against all enemyes but she may not hope to triumph over all sin and error tell she be in Heaven If it be comfort enough to be secured from all capitall dangers why were not the first pretended reformers content with enough but rent the Church out of a pernicious greedyness of more then enough or a pretended desire to free men from all errour which cannot be hoped for out of Heaven If even the vniversall Church may not hope to triumph over all Errour till she be in Heaven much less can particular Churches and men conceiue any such hope and so you must either grant that Errours not Fundamentall cannot yield sufficient cause to forsake the Churches Communion or you must affirme that all Churches may and ought to be forsaken and that a man cannot lawfully be of any Church yea and that every one is obliged to forsake himself if it were possible for avoyding errours not Fundamentall Besides as it is not lawfull to leaue the Communion of the Church for abuses in life and manners
may be excused For no body can intend evill but for some motiue of Vertue profit or pleasure And since their pretended reformation did consist as they gaue out in forsaking the corruptions of the Roman Church the Reformation of themselves and their Division from vs fall out to be one and the selfe same thing and so if it was not lawfull to forsake vs it was not lawfull to reforme themselves by forsaking vs. Besides we see the they disagree infinitely in the particulars of their pretended Reformation and therfore the thing vpon which their first thoughts did pitch was not any particular Modell or Idea of Religion but a conceipt that their most necessary and as I may say immediate Reformation did consist in forsaking the Roman Church 12. An other argument Charity Maintayned N. 35. sets downe in these words It is evident that there was a division between Luther and that Church which was visible when he arose but that Church caÌ„not be sayd to haue divided herselfe from him before whose tyme 〈◊〉 was and in comparison of whom she was a whole and he but a Part therfore we must say that he divided himself and went out of her which is to be a Schismatique or Heretique or both By this Argument Optatus Milevitanus proveth that not Caecilianus but Parmenianus was a Schismatique saying Lib 1. cont Parmen For Caecilianus went not out of Majorinus they Grandfather but Majorinus from Caecilianus neither did Caecilianus depart from the Chayre of Peter or Cyprian but Majorinus in whose Chayre thou sittest which had no beginning before Majorinus Since it manyfestly appeareth that these things were acted in this manner it is cleere that you are heyres both of the deliverers vp of the Holy Bible to be burned and also of Schismatiks The whole Argument of this Holy Father makes directly both against Luther and all those who continue the division which he began and proves That going out convinceth those who go out to be Schismatiks but not those from whom they depart That to forsake the Chayre of Peter is Schisme yea that it is Schisme to erect a Chayre which had no origen or as it were predecessour before it selfe That to continue in a division begun by others is to be heyres of Schismatiks and lastly that to depart from the Communion of a particular Church as that of S. Cyprian was is sufficient to make a man incurre the guilt of Schisme and consequently that although the Protestants who deny the Pope to be supreme Head of the Church do thinke by that Heresy to cleere Luther from Schisme in disobeying the Pope Yet that will not serve to free him froÌ„ Schisme as it importeth a division from the obedience or Communion of the particular Bishop Diocesse Church and Countrey where he lived Thus Charity Maintayned And to this purpose Optatus saith excellently Lib 1. The business in hand is concerning separation In Asrica as in all other Provinces likewise there was but one Church before it was divided by those who ordayned Majorinus in the Chaire vpon which by succession thou art sett The matter therfore to be r consider 〈◊〉 which of the two partyes has remayned in the roote with the â—â—â—le world Which of them went out Which of them is sett vpon a new Chayre which hertofore was not in being Which of them has raysed an Altar against an Altar Which of them made an Ordination during the life tyme of him who was before ordained Lastly which of them is obnoxious to the sentence of S. John the Apâ—â—â—e who fortold that many Antichrists would goe out of the Church 13. In confirmation of this Argument we may alledge Dr. Andrewes Respons ad Epist 1. Molinaei Pag 171. commending Molinaeus in condemning Aërius for opposing the consent of the vniversall Church The words of Molinaeus were quod in re pridem vbique recepta ausus sit opponere se consensui Vniversalis Ecclesiae Which the first Protestants did by opposing themselves to the whole Church extant before them and consequently to the consent of the Church vniversall In like manner we haue heard Dr. Taylor Pag. 327. saying That to separate from the Bishops makes a man at least a Sâ—hismatick And Pag 329. that it is also Heresy Now who does not see that the first Protestants did separate themselves from all Bishops and therfore must be both Schismatiks and Heretiks Let men therfore pretend as much as they please to shed teares and be ready even to shedd their bloud for procuring vnity amongst Christians their thoughts and endeavours will be in vaine vnless they resolve to returne to that Body from which they separated themselves and being but parts made a Division from the Whole A truth so cleare that even the wisest of our adversaryes acknowledge it and in particular one of the most erudite eloquent experienced and learned Protestants Hugo Grotius confesses that Vnion cannot be hoped for in the Church except by being conjoyned with those who are Vnited with the Sea of Rome His words are these Rivetiani Apologetici Discuss Pag 255. Restitutionem Christianorum in vnum idemque corpus semper optatam a Grotio sciunt qui eum norunt Existimavit autem aliquando incipi posse a Protestantium inter se conjunctione Postea vidit id plane fieri nequire quia praeterquam quod Calvinistarum ingenia ferme omnium ab omni pace sunt alienissima Protestantes nullo inter se communi Ecclesiastico regimine sociantur quae causae sunt cur factae partes in vnum Prótestantium corpus colligi nequeant imò cur partes aliae atque aliae sint exsurrect urae Quare nunc planè ita sentit Grotius multi cum ipso non posse Protestantes interse jungi nisi simul jungantur cum ijs qui Sedi Romanae cohaerent sine qua nullum sperari potest in Ecclesia commune regimen Ideo optat vt ea divulsio quae even it causae divulsionis tollantur Inter eas causas non est Primatus Episcopi Romani secundum canonas fatente Melanctone qui eum Primatum etiam necessarium putat ad retinendam vnitatem Neque enim hoc est Ecclesiam subijcere Pontificis libidine sed reponere ordinem sapienter institutum 14. And this Argument drawen from the grievous sinne and deformity of a Part in forsaking the whole was of force to moue that bold and obdurate hart of Luther in the middest of his full cups and sensuall pleasures and I beseech all Protestants for the loue they beare to that sacred ransome of their soules the Bloud of our Blessed Saviour attentively to ponder and vnpartially to apply to their owne conscience what this man spoke concerning the feelings and remorse of his How often saith he Tom 2. Germ Jen Fol 9. Tom 2. Witt of Anno 1562. de abrog Miss privat Fol 244. did my trembling heart beate within me and reprehending me object against me that most strong argument Art thou only wise Do
opinions which still makes it more and more evident that with Sectaryes evidence affects rather their will or fancy than their vnderstanding And here you ought in all reason to apply to the Ancient Fathers and learned Protestants agreeing with vs against their Brethren what you say Pag 40. and 41. N. 13. in favour of Protestants in generall to proue that there is no necessity of damning all those that are of contrary beliefe in these words The contrary belief may be about the sense of some place of Scripture which is ambiguous and with probability capable of diuerse senses and in such cases it is no mervaile and sure no sin if seuerall men go seuerall wayes Also the contrary beliefe may be concerning Points wherin Scripture may with so great probability be alledged on both sides which is a sure note of a Point not necessary that men of honest and vpright hearts true louers of God and of truth such as desire aboue all things to know Gods will and to do it may without any fault at all some goe one way and some another and some and those as good men as either of the former suspend their judgments Now whatsoever you judge of vs yet I hope you will not deny the Ancient Fathers and your owne Protestant Brethren to be so qualifyed as you describe men of honest and vpright hearts true lovers of God and the truth c And therfore seing they vnderstood the word of God as we doe you ought to absolue them yea and vs and conceiue that Luther had no necessary cause to forsake the whole Church for Points maintayned by men of so great quality in all kinds whose authority you cannot deny to be sufficient for making a doctrine probable and for devesting the contrary of certainty and therfore according to Hookers rule they ought to haue suspended their perswasion and they offended against God by troubling the whole Church 57. Neither can you object against the Fathers what you say against vs Pag 280. N. 66. that what may be enough for men in ignorance may be to knowing men not enough c For besides that it is I know not whether more ridiculous or impious to say the Fathers were men in ignorance and the whole Church in errour at least you will not deny but those Protestants who agree with vs are knowing men and haue all the meanes of knowing the truth which other Protestants haue and they being supposed by you I hope to be men of honest and vpright hearts may without any fault at all dissent from their Brethren according to your owne rule And since you must excuse them it were manifest injustice to condemne vs who defend the same doctrine with them 58. Fifthly It is a principle of nature that no private person much lesse a Community and least of all the whole Christian world should be deprived of that good name of which they were once in peaoeable and certaine possession without very cleare and convincing evidence Seing then even Protestants grant that for divers Ages the Church and the Roman Church in particular enjoyed the good Name and Thing of being Orthodox and Pure she cannot be deprived of them without evidence neither can probability or vncertainty be sufficient to forsake her Communion as noxious O of how different a mynd are our Novelists from the Ancient Doctours of Gods Church who against all Heretiks opposed the Tradition and Succession of the Bishops of Rome as Tertuilian the SS Irenaeus Epiphanius Optatus and Austine as Calvin confesses L. 4. Instit C. 3. and thinkes to saue himselfe with this Answer Sect. 3. Cum exrra contoversiam esset c. Seing it was vndoubtedly true that nothing was altered in doctrine from the beginning till that Age they did alledg that which was sufficient to overthrow all new errours namely that they were repugnant to the Doctrine which by vnanimous consent was constantly kept from the very tyme of the Apostles themselves But this Answer can serue only to shew that the Argument of the Fathers against Heretiks was plainly of no force at all For if the Tradition and succession of Bishops in the Church of Rome were not assured of the particular assistāce of the holy Ghost no argument could be taken to proue any doctrine true because it had been taught in that Sea in regard that without such assistance Errour might haue crept in and tradition might haue delivered a falshood Therfore the Fathers alledging the Doctrine of the Roman Church for a Rule to all other must suppose such an assistance without which their adversaryes might haue rejected the Tradition of that Sea with as much facility as the Tradition and Authority of any other And to say the Fathers grounded their Argument meerly vpon matter of fact that de facto the Church of Rome had delivered otherwise than those Heretiks held and thence had inferred the falshood of their Heresyes would haue beene directly petitio principij as if they had sayd The Church of Rome de facto without any certaine assistance of the Holy Ghost holds the contrary of that which you Heretiks teach but that which she holds is true therfore your Doctrine is false For this Minor that which she holds is true had been a meere begging of the Question without any proofe at all and had been no more in effect then if the Fathers had sayd The Doctrine of the Roman Church and our Doctrine which is the same with Hers is true because we suppose it to be true and therfore yours is false Wherfore we must giue glory to God and acknowledg that the Fathers believed that the Roman Church was assisted by the Holy Ghost above other Churches not to fall into errour in matters of Faith and Religion Howsoever let vs take what Calvin grants that at least the Church of Rome conserved the Truth and purity of Faith till the tyme of S. Austine that is between the fourth and fift Age after our Saviour Christ and Heretiks commonly grant that the Church of Rome was pure for the first fiue hundred yeares Now let any man of judgment consider whether it was probable or possible that immediatly after so great purity and Sanctity so huge a deluge of superstitions Idolatryes Heresyes and corruptions could haue flowed into the Church of Rome within the space of one hundred yeares that is till the tyme of S. Gregory the Great without being noted or spoken of or contradicted by any one Especially if we consider that other doctrines which both Protestants and Catholiks profess to be Heresyes were instantly observed impugned and condemned and to say that those only of which they hold vs guilty did passe without observation of any can be judged no better than a voluntary affected foolish fancy I beseech the Protestant Reader for the Eternall good of his owne soule to pause here a little and well ponder this Point Besides S. Gregory himselfe was a most holy learned and Zealous Pastour
haue some Errours yet seeing they are not soe great as yours he that conceiâ—es it any disparagement to his judgment to change your Communion for theirs though confessed to haue some corruptions it may well be presumed that he hath but little judgment Do not these words declare your opinion that in case of perplexity when of two Evills one must be chosen it is judgment and consequently no sinne to make choise of the less This is the very thing which I haue alledged out of Divines and which obliges you to answer your owne argumeÌ„t against Charity maintayned This your chiefest objection being answered confuted and retorted let vs examine the rest 136. You say Pag 164. N. 57. It is impossible to adhere to the Roman Church mâ—ll things having no other ground for it but because she is infallible in some things that is in Fondamentalls 137. Answer Although indeed if once we suppose that we cannot know what Points are Fundamentall it be an evident consequence that we can never belieue the Church in some things vnless we belieue her in all and so your objection is of no force yet Charity Maintayned never sayd that one may adhere to the Church in all things precisely and formally because she is infallible in some things which in speculation and good Logicke had been like to this Argument Mans vnderstanding is infallible in some things for example in the most vniversall knowne principles as that two contradictoryes cannot be true or that every whole is greater than a part therof and the like Therfore I am to belieue mans vnderstanding to be infallible in all things But he spoke morally and pro subjectâ materia and therfore sayd expressly seing Protestants grant the Church to be infallible in Points necessary to salvation any wise man will inferre that it behooves all who haue care of their soules not to forsake her Where you see he speakes of what were to be done in wisedowne and for the safety of ones soule and considers tkings as in this subject they ought to be considered in a morall not in a Logicall or Metaphisicall way That the Church being confessedly infallible in all necessary Points men must consider well how they leaue her in any point least perhaps either that point wherin they forsake her be a Fundamentall point or els least they may fall into some Fundamentall errour after they haue left her as also that seing they rely on her Authority in Fundamentall Articles it is no wisdome to suspect her credit in matters of less moment especially considering the many examples of those who de facto forsaking the Church haue fallen into damnable and Fundamentall Heresyes and in a word seing there may be great danger in leaving the Church and damnation cannot be feared by adhering to her which I am sure neither doth nor can erre in Points necessary to salvation there may be great harme in leaving but no hurt in fellowing Her in all that she proposes as matter of Faith which is your owne grant as we haue seene aboue in these words Pag 168. N. 63. It is true if we sayd there were no danger in being of the Roman Church and there were danger in leaving it it were madness to perswade any man to leaue it Now that the Roman Church doth not erre in Fundamentall or necessary Points I will proue herafter out of your owne words out of Potter and other Protestants and therfore it was madnesse to perswade men to leaue Her 138. These and the like morall and prudentiall Arguments Charity Maintayned vrged which truly in a matter concerning Eternity ought to mooue every one and more than meere Metaphysicall speculations And that this discourse of Charity Maintayned was very reasonable yourselfe make good in your words which I haue cited that if there were set vp some setled society of Christians for our guide in Fundamentalls then Charity Maintayned might with some colour and shew of reason haue concluded that we could not in wisdome forsake this Church in any Point for feare of forsaking Her in a necessary Point What Mr. Chillingworth For feare of forsaking Her in a necessary Point What colour of reason can there be in this your feare Seing we haue heard you tell vs P. 164. N. 57. It is impossible to adhere to the Roman Church in all things having no other ground for it but because she is infallible in some things And what will become of your vaine Dialogue in this same section wherby with great pompe of words you endeavour to prove that it is impossible to adhere to the Roman Church in all thingr hauing no other ground c Is it not cleare that you contradict yourselfe and are engaged to answer all the Arguments which you object against Charity Maintayned for saying that if the Church be infallible in Fundamentalls it is no wisdome to leaue her in any Point Can one judge that there is reason for that which the same man is confident which is your owne word Pag 165. N. 57. may be demonstrated to be false And by this appeares that your whole discourse N. 63. is against this your owne grant Neither do we say that vniversally one must stick to one side for feare of going too far towards the other but that when there is no harme in embracing one part and evident danger in forsaking it in such a case we cannot forsake one part and goe to the other that is we cannot forsake the Church in Points not necessary for salvation because we may chance to leaue her in some Fundamentall Point which even yourselfe grant to be a rationall deduction if once it be supposed that any particular Church is infallible in Fundamentall Points as Protestants commonly grant the vniversall Church to be infallible in such Articles and therfore as I sayd aboue Luther and his fellowes could not in wisdome forsake the vniversall Church in any one Point Morover remember what you write Pag 277. N. 61. in these words Neither is there any reason why a Church should please herselfe too much for retaining fundamentall truthes while she remaines regardless of others For who is there that can put her in sufficient caution that these errours about profitable matters may not according to the vsuall fecundity of errour bring forth others of a higher quality such as are pernicious and pestilent and vndermine by secret consequences the very foundations of Religion and Piety If this be true of the vniversal Church which is infallible for Fundamentalls much more may we say of any private person who hath no such priviledg of infallibility forsaking the Church in some Point of Faith Who is there can put him in sufficient caution that these Errours about profitable matters may not according to the vsuall fecundity of Errour bring forth others of a higher quality such as are pernicious and pestilent and vndermine by secret consequences the very fundations of Religion and Piety And therfore Charity Maintayned had reason to
say that the Church ought not to be forsaken in any least Point least perhaps that proue to be Fundamentall Neither can you say that Protestants were certaine that the Points wherin they left the Church were errours For to omit the reasons which I haue already giuen here I must put you in mynd that diverse learned chiefe Protestants agree with vs in very many yea I may say in all the maine differences betwixt Protestants and vs And therfore your preence of so great evidence and certainty against the Doctrine of the Roman Church is meerly voluntary and verball And besides I would know how the Church can be supposed to be infallible in fundamentall Points and yet may be in danger to fall into such errours as are pernicious and pestilent and vndermine the very Fundations of Religion and Piety 139. These maine dissicultyes being taken away your other Objections cited aboue are answered by only mentioning them The Question is not whether we should erre with the present Church or hold true with God Almighty as you vainly speak but whether the word and will of God Almighty be better vnderstood and declared to vs by Gods vniversall true Church or by any private person or particulat Sect. 140. If particular Churches haue been liberall of their Anathemas which yet were never conceaved infallible What is that to the Anathemas of the vniversall Church granted to be infallible in fundameÌ„tall points in which whosoever disobeyes her puts himselfe in state of damnation And seing you confess that men cannot know what points be fundamentall it followes that we cannot with safety disobey her in any one point for feare of leaving her in some fundamentall Article 141. That the visible Church of Christ holds itselfe to be infallible cannot be doubted seing even her enemyes belieue she cannot erre in fund mentall Points and she proposes all her definitions of faith to be believed without distinguishing betweene Points fundamentall and not Fundamentall which she could not doe without great temerity and injury to Faithfull people if she did not hold herselfe to be vniversally infallible Of which point Ch Ma P. 2. Ch 5. N. 20. P. 132. spekes at large in answer to a demand or objection of Potter and in vaine you say God in Scripture can better informe vs what are the limits of the Churches Power than the Church herselfe For the Question is only whether God will haue his meaning in Scripture declared by the Church or by every mans private spirit wit or fancy Besides God declares his sacred pleasure not only by the written but also by the vnwritten word 142. That there is no danger in being of the Roman Church Protestants must affirme who hold that she had all things necessary to salvation as shall appeare herafter and whosoever denyes it must grant that Christ had no Church vpon Earth when Luther appeared and that there is danger to leaue her experience makes manifest by the infinite multitude of different Sects and opinions wherof all cannot be true and so must be esteemed a deluge of Heresyes 143. The Heresy of the Donatists did consist formally in this that the Church might erre or be polluted and by that Meanes giue just cause to forsake her communion For if without any such errour in their vnderstanding they did only de facto separate by the obstancy of their will they were indeed Schismatikes but not Heretikes as not dividing themselves from the Church in Matter of Faith And yet Potter saieth they were properly Heretiques Yea if it be not an Heresy to say in generall that the Church may erre and be corrupted or polluted to say that in such a particular case she is corrupted comes to be only a matter of History or fact whether she hath done so or no but it is not a point of Faith and so is not of a nature sufficient to constiute an Heresy supposing as I saied it be once granted that she may erre For example the Donatists gaue out that the Catholique Church was defild by communicating with those who were called traditors The Heresy consists precisely in this Point That the whole Church may be corrupted and so give just cause to be forfaken not in that other Point whether or no the possibility of the thing being supposed de facto Catholikes did communicate with those traditours Since therfore it is supposed by you aÌ„d affirmed by Potter that the Donatists were heretiks their heresy must coÌ„sist in this that the Catholique Church spredd over the whole world might erre and be polluted And is not this the very heresy of Protestants And do they not pretend to leaue the Church vpon this same ground that she erred And this particularly is evident in those Protestants who say the whole visible Church before Luther perished The names of which Protestants may be seene in Charity Maintayned Part 1. N. 9. Pag 161. and more may be read in Brierley Tract 2. Ca 3. Sect 2. And therefore I wonder you would say that Charity Maintayned had not named those Protestants who hold the Church to haue perished for many Ages That it is a fundamentall errour of its owne nature properly hereticall to say The Church Militant may possibly be driven out of the world is the Doctrine of Potter as we haue seene as also that Whitaker calls it a prophane heresy and more Protestants may be seene to that purpose in that place where we cited Whitaker And Dr. Lawd holds it to be against the Article of our Creed I belieue the Holy Catholique Church and that to say that Article is not true is blasphemy 144. That he which is an Hererike in one Article may haue true Faith in other Articles is against the true and common Doctrine of all Catolique Divines and vniversally against all Catholikes to say That such a Faith can be sufficient to salvation because his very heresy is a deadly sin And therfore to say the Church can erre in any one point of Faith is to say the whole Church may be in state of damnation for faith which is an intollerable injury to God and his spouse the Church For if she may be in state of damnation by any culpable errour she must be supposed to want some thing necessary to salvation namely the beliefe of that truth which such culpable errour denyes But more of this herafter 145. By the way How can you say N. 56. to Charity Maintayned That when it was for his purpose to haue it so the greatness or smallness of the matter was not considerable the Evidence of the Revelation was all in all For where doth Charity Maintayned say That evidence of the Revelation is all in all Yea doth he not expressly teach Part 1. Chap. 6. N. 2. that evidence is not compatible with an ordinary Act of Faith and therby proves N. 30. that Protestants want true Faith 146. Object 14. Charity Maâ—ntayned in diverse occasions affirmes or supposes that Dr. Potter and other
Point that I need not say one word to ponder your words or declare the force of them Pag 7. N. 3. You expressly approue the saying of Dr. Potter That both sides by the confession of both sides agree in more Points then are simply and indispensably necessary to salvation and differ only in such as are not precisely necessary Therfore do we inferr Catholikes belieue all that is necessary to salvation and more But we can never yield so much to you Pag. 85. N. 89. You confesse the Roman Church to be a Part of the Catholique Church And we haue heard you say Pag 16. N. 20. If she were a true Part of the Church then she retained those truths which were simply necessary to salvation and beld no errours which were inevitably and vnpardonably destructiue of it For this is precisely necessary to constitute any man or any Church a member of the Church Catholique This you say and make good the like inference which I made by occasion of Dr. Potters words that the Roman Church is a member of the Catholique and other like Assertions of his Pag 163. N. 56. You say From Scripture we collect our hope that the Truths she the Roman Church retaines and the practise of them may proue an Antiaote to her against the errours which she maintaines in such persons as in simplicity of hart follow this Absalon These Points of Christianity which haue in them the nature of Antidots against the poyson of all sins and errors the Church of Rome though otherwise much corrupted still retaines therfore we hope she erreh not Fundamentally but still remaines a Part of the Church But this can be no warrant to vs to thinke with her in all things Seeing the very same Scripture which puts vs in hope she errs not Fundamentally marke how you professe to learne even out of Scripture that we erre not Fundamentally assures vs that in many things and those of great moment she errs very grievously And these errors though to them that belieue them we hope they will not be pernicious yet the professing of them against conscience could not but bring to vs certaine damnation Therefore the Points in which we differ from Protestants being acknowledged not to be Fundamentall and in other Points professing nothing against our conscience we are safe by your owne Confession If we did not belieue as we profess we were no Roman Catholikes In the same place you say expressly De facto we hope the Roman Church does not erre in Fundamentalls yea you say Lin 33. Perhaps she does not erre damnably the contrary wherof you affirme so often You example of Absalon was very ill applyed to the Roman Church which did not rebell from you but you against the whole Church the Mother of all Christians more sacrilegiously than Absalon behaved himselfe wickedly to wards his father Pag 404. N. 29. you approue Dr. Potters saying Pag 79. which I cited aboue that the Roman Religion is safe that is not damnable to some such as beleeue what they professe And in the same place you say we may hope that she retaines those Truths which are simply absolutely and indispensably necessary to salvatioâ— Pag 401. N. 27 We approue those Fundamentall and simply necessary Truths which you retaine by which some good soules among you may be saved but abhorre your many superstitions and heresyes The Truths you retaine are good and as we hope sufficient to bring good ignorant soules among you to salvation yet are not to be sought for in the conventi le of Papists If any soule may be saved in our Religion it is cleare that we hold not any Fundamentall errour with which no soule can be saved Pag 277. N. 61. you say The simple defect of some Truths prositable only and not simply necessary may consist with salvation Seing therfore you haue so often confessed that we erre not in Fundamentall Points our errours in some Truths profitable only and not fundamentall may consist with salvation How then do you say to Catholiks Pag 401. N. 27. As for our freeing you from damnable Herely and yielding you salvation neither He Dr. Potter nor any other Protestant is guilty of it Pag 219. N. 50. speaking of Protestants you say They doe not disser at all â—n Matters of Faith if you take the word in the highest sense and mâ—ane by Matters of Faith such Doctrines as are adsolutely necessary to salvation to be believed or not to be dâ—â—believed Now you know well that in Points of greatest moment which Catholiks belieue against some Protestants other Protestants stand for vs against their pretended Brethren and therfore you must either say that we belieue all such Doctrines as are absolutely necessary to salvation or that many learned Protestants do not belieue all such Doctrines and consequently are not capable of Salvation Pag Pag 269. N. 45. A man may possibly leaue some opinion or practise of a Church formerly common to himselfe and others and continue still a member of that Church Provided that what he forsakes be not one af those things wherin the essence of the Church consists For this cause you say that although Protestants left the externall Communion of the Church yet they left not the Church because they left her not in any thing essentiall to a Church as Fundamentall Points are Therfore you suppose the Church before Luther did not erre in any Fundamentall Article Otherwise you had left her that is you had disagreed from her in a Fundamentall Point Pag 272. N. 52. and Pag 283. N. 73. You deny that Protestants divided themselves from the Church absolutely and simply in all things that is ceased to be a member of it which still supposes that the Church before Luther believed all essentiall and Fundamentall Points which Protestants also pretend to hold and for that cause say they left not the Church Pag 272. N. 52. You say In the reason of our separation from the externall Communion of your Church you are mistaken For it was not so much because she your Church as because your Churches externall Communion was corrupted and needed Reformation But if we erred in Fundamentall Points Protestants must haue forsaken vs chiefly for that reason that our Church was corrupted with Fundamentall errours of Faith Therfore you grant that we erred not in any such necessary Points Pag 401. N. 26. You confess that Dr Potter saith indeed that our not cutting of your Church from the Body of Christ and hope of salvation frees vs from the imputation of Schisme Pag 133. N. 12. You say expressly By Confession of both sides we agree in much more than is simply and indispensably necessary to salvation It is well you make so open a Confession that we belieue much more than is simply necessary to salvation But as I sayd aboue we will not because we cannot yield so much to you And here I must aske againe How you could say Pag 401. N. 27. As for
that is that it is impossible that they can agree in all points Calvin Instit Lib 4. Cap 1. N. 12. speakes plainly Quoniam nemo est qui non c. Because none is free from some cloua of ignorance we must either leaue no Church at all or we must Pardon errours in those things of which men may be ignorant without breach both of the summe or substance of Religion and loss of salvation Marke how this Patriark of Protestants acknowledges that noe Church can be free from errours not Fundamentall Dr. Lawed Sect 38. Pag 360. In things not necessary though they be Divine truths also I confess it were hartily to be wished that men might be all of one minde and one judgment But this can not be hoped for till the Church be Triumphant over all humane frailtyes which here hang thinke and closes about her Whitaker Cont 2. Q. 5. C. 8. It is not needefull that all should thinke the same if such vanity be required there would be noe Church at all Potter Pag 39. It is a great vnity to hope or expect that all learned men in this life should absolutely consent in all the preces and particles of Divine Truth And Pag 69. He expressly confesses that all the weeds are not perfectly taken away in the reformed Church Chilling P. 279. N. 64. the visible Church is free indeed from all errours absolutely destructiue and vnpardonable but not from all errour which in it selfe is damnable Morton Appologie Lib 1.58 only Papists challenge priviledg of not erring And blessed be God who hath placed vs in a Church which vpon evident and necessary Reason challenges that priviledg without which there can be not infallibility in Christian Faith noe vnitie in the Church of which therfore we haue just cause to say with S. Austine Ep 48. wherewith Charity Maintayned ends the second part of his booke Others of the Donatists say we did indeed belieue that it imported nothing in what company we did hold the Faith of Christ But thanks be to our Lord who hath gathered vs from division and hath shewed to vs that it agreeth to one God that he be worshiped in vnity For what a Church is that which is divided even in points of Divine Faith If such errours be sufficient to divide from a Church as Protestants pretend to have parted from vs vpon that ground and without which they must confess themselves to be Schismatikes and that noe Church is free from such errours what followes but that all Churches and all men must be divided from one another and noe one Church be left in the whole world And how can they be excused from Schisme in leaving all Churches for errours which no Church can avoide And who would be a Protestant seing themselves confess that they neither are nor can be free from damnable errours that is errours against Divine Revelation which wil actually bring damnation vpon them that keep themselves in them by their owne voluntary and avoidable fault as you say Pag 279. 64. So as for the Generall effect of damnation they differ not from fundamentall errours which also are pardonable by repentance Beside Pag 220. N. 52. you say by fundamentall we meane all and only that which is necessary and then I hope you will grant that we may safely expect salvation in a Church which hath all things Fundamentall to salvation By which words you must vnderstand all truths necessary because they are revealed by God and commanded and not only things indispensably necessary of themselves because you say one may safely expect salvation if he belieue all things Fundamentall which safety he cannot expect who erres in points revealed though not Fundamentall of themselves seing you teach that all such errours are damnable and in plain termes Pag 133. N. 12. you say their state is dangerous which can not stand with safety therfore by Fundamentall points with the belief of which one may safely expect salvation you must vnderstand all points not only Fundamentall of themselves but such also as are necessary only because revealed And Pag 290. N. 88. you expresly giue those errours of which we speake the name of fundamentall even as one membrum dividens of Fundamentall as the Divisum in these wordes Fundamentall errours may signify either such as are repugnant to Gods command and so in their owne nature damnable though to those which out of invincible ignorance practise them not vnpardonable Or such as are not only meritoriously but remedilessely pernicious and desiructiue of salvation Well now these errours which you acknowledge in the Protestant Church being against Gods Revelation and command must be in their owne nature damnable as you doe not denie but they are so and therfore we say that Luther and his fellows could no more forsake the Roman Church for such errours than they must forsake one an other till they leaue no Church at all and all come to be Independents both in respect of others and even of a mansselfe who must still be forsaking his owne errours against Faith as being damnable in themselves I neede not here repeat what I haue of necessitie often mentioned That scarcely we hold any Article against some Protestants in which we haue not other learned Protestants on our side against their fellows and I hope you will not say that the selfe same errours are even in their owne nature damnable in vs and not in Protestants which were a pretty non-sense and an vnjust partiality therfore I conclude that this Objection is no less against Protestants then vs yea it is vnansweareable by Protestants who confes that really their Church is subject to and actually is stained with such errours which we absolutely denie in respect of the Roman Church and such as agree with her 155. And here you must ponder your wordes Pag 280. N. 95. For Charity Maintayned Part 1. Pag 184. haveing alledged Potters wordes Pag 69. that the weedes are not perfectly taken away among Protestants saith What man of judgement will be a Protestant since that Church is confessedly a corrupted one To this you reply And yet you yourselfe make large discourses in this very Chapter to perswade Protestants to continue in the Church of Rome though supposed to haue some corruptions And why I pray may not a man of judgement continue in the Communion of a Church confessedly corrupted as well as in a Church supposed to be corrupted 156. To this your reply I may answer out of what I sayd aboue How I pray is it all one to make a Supposition acknowledged by him who makes it to be a thing both vntrue and impossible and to speake of a thing so certainly and immoveably true that the contrary is impossible The former case treates of a voluntary supposition which the supposer knowes he may recall or reverse at his pleasure and bring things to the true state in which they really exist and so as I may say all will be mended
vnderstanding to an assent in despite of any pious affection of the will and reverence due to Gods Church and Councells and the many and great reasons which make for Her which is vnanswerably confirmed by considering that Protestants disagree amongst themselves and many of them in many things agree with vs which I must often repeate which could not happen if the reasons against vs were demonstratiue or evident and in this occasion your Rule that the property of Charity is to judge the best will haue place at least for as much as concernes those your owne Brethren who agree with vs As also your other saying Pag 41. N. 13. That men honest and vpright hearts true lovers of God and truth may without any fault at all some goe one way some another which shewes that there can be no evidence against the Doctrine of the Church with which even so many Protestants agree but that Catholikes haue at least very probable and prudent reasons not to depart from the Church in any one point and that although we should falsely suppose Her to erre in points not fundamentall the errour could not be culpable nor sinfull but most prudent and laudable And in this our condition is far different and manifestly better than that of Protestants who disagreeing not only both from the Church but amongst themselves also must be certaine that they are in errour which for ought they know may be fundamentall seing they cannot tell what Points in particular are fundamentall wheras we adhering to the Church are sure not to erre against any necessary or fundamentall truth And yourselfe say Pag 376. N. 57. He that believes all necessary Truth if his life be answerable to his Faith how is it possible he should faile of salvation 168. And then further vpon this same ground is deduced another great difference with great advantage on our side that Protestants are obliged vnder paine of damnation to make choyse of the more certaine and secure part and must not be content with a meere probability if they can by any industry care study prayer fasting almes-deeds or any other meanes attaine to a greater degree of certainty For if indeed they erre in any one Article of Faith necessary necessitate medij they cannot be saved even though their errour were supposed to be invincible as hertofore we haue shewed out of Protestants Wheras we being assured that adhering to the Church we cannot erre in any point of it selfe necessary to salvation for the rest we are sure to be saved if we proceed prudently and probably because the truth contrary to our supposed errours cannot be necessary necessitate medij as not being fundamentall Yea since indeed Protestants can haue no other true and solid meanes of assurance that they erre not Fundamentally except the same which we embrace of believing the Church in all her definitions they are obliged vnder deadly sin to belieue all that she proposes for feare of erring in some Fundamentall Article What I haue sayd that we proceede prudently though our Doctrines were supposed to be errours may be confirmed by an Adversary Dr. Jer Taylor who in his Liberty of prophesying § 20. N. 2. saieth that our grounds that truth is more ancient then falshood that God would not for so many Ages forsake his Church and leaue her in errour that whatsoever is new is not only suspitions but false are suppositions pious and plausible enough And then having reckoned many advantages of our Church he concludes These things and divers others may very easily perswade persons of much reason and more piety to retain that which they know to haue been the Religion of their fore-Fathers which had actuall possession and seizure of mens vnderstandings before the opposite professions had a name before Luther appeared And in express tearmes he confesses that these things are instruments of our excuse by making our errours to be invinc1ible which is the thing I would proue But here I must declare that when I say It is sufficient for vs to proceed probably and prudently It is still vpon a false supposition that the Church may erre in some Point not Fundamentall though in reall truth there be no such distinction For we are obliged vnder payne of damnation to belieue the Church equally in all points and vse all not only probable but possible meanes to find the true Church and belieue her with absolute certainty in all matters belonging to Faith and in particular That she cannot erre in any point Fundamentall or not Fundamentall without the beliefe of which truth Christian Faith cannot be certaine and infallible as hath been shewed at large 169. Thirdly I answer to your Objection That we absolutely deny the Catholique Church to be subject to errour either in Fundamentall or not Fundamentall Points or that she can erre either Fundamentally or damnably in what sense soever And therfore wheras you say Pag 280. N. 95. The errours of Protestants are not so great as ours we vtterly deny that our Church can belieue or propose any errour at all And though those Catholique Verityes which we belieue were errours yet they could not be greater than those of Protestants speaking in generall seing in all the chiefest controverted points we haue diverse chiefe learned men on our side who think themselves as good Protestants as those other from whom they disagree Besides in our Question respect must be had to the kind and not to the degree of errours that is nor whether the points be FundameÌ„tall or not FundameÌ„tall nor whether they which be Fundamentall be greater or less in their owne nature nor whether one not Fundamentall be worse than another not Fundamentall because if one errour not Fundamentall yield not sufficient cause to forsake the Communion of the Church another cannot otherwise you will not be able to assigne any Rule when the Church may be forsaken and when she cannor and it is damnable to professe against ones conscience any errour in Faith be it never so small which is the ground for which you say the Communion of the Church may be forsaken And lastly it is more wisdome to hold a greater vnfundamentall errour with the Church which I know by the confession of our Adversaryes cannot erre fundamentally than by holding a less vnfundamentall errour expose my selfe to danger of falling into fundamentall errours as I proved hertofore As it is less evill to commit a veniall sinne that is which abstracting from the case of perplexity would be certainly a veniall sinne than to expose ones selfe to true danger of falling into a mortall offence of God 170. Fourthly I answer that as I haue often noted according to you and Dr. Potter it is Fundamentall to the Faith of a Christian not to deny any point though otherwise of its nature not Fundamentall being proposed and belieued to be revealed by God and so your distinction between Fundamentall and damnable Points as if the eâ—â—ours of Catholiks and Protestants were damnable
other must be true Indeed Sir I know nor how to reconcile those two sayings of Charity Maintayned because I cannot see how possibly they could ever fall out or be at variance For what disagreement can be imagined in these Propositions Some errours are not Fundamentall as not being repugnant to Fundamentall truths and every Fundamentall errours must haue a contrary Fundamentall truth or rather haue they not a most cleare connexion and parity that as an errour not Fundamentall is opposite only to a truht not fundamentall so a fundamentall errour is opposite to a fundamentall Truth And the reason of this is given by Ch Ma in that very place which you cited because according to Philosophy the privation is measured by the forme to which it is repugnant 172. Thus vpon the whole matter it appeares That your affirming our falsely supposed errours to be damnable and so to yield sufficient cause of deserting our Church is turned against all Protestants who confessedly de facto maintayne damnable errours That although our errours were never so damnable in themselves yet they could not be so to vs who are excused by invincible ignorance That Potter and you contradict yourselves in talking of pardon for that which is no sin and That you overthrow your distinction of errours which you say are damnable but not Fundamentall while in the meane tyme you make all damnable errours to be fundamentall and which for that cause if you will speake with consequence must destroy the vnity of Faith and Church and hope of saluation And therfore seing you grant that there was a Church when Luther arose it followes that indeed she was not guilty of any errour even not Fundamentall and that Luther and his followers were formall Schismatiks in leaving her communion vpon a false and impossible supposition or pretence of errours 173. Object 16. Pag 260. N. 22. you speake thus to Charity Maintayned wheras you say That all Divines define Schisme a Division from the true Church and from thence collect that there must be a knowne Church from which it is poâ—sible for men to deparâ— I might very justly question your Antecedent and dâ—sâ—â—e you to consider whether Schisme be not rather or at least be not as well aâ—d vision of the Church as from it A separation not of a Part from the Wâ—ole but of some Parts from the other And if you liked not this Definition I might desire you to informe me in those many Schismes which haue happened in the Church of Rome which of the Parts was the Church and which was divided from it And Pag 271. N. 51. You define Schisme A causeless separation of one Part of the Church from another 174. Answer I haue already sayd enough against this Definition of yours yet because you add an Objection about Schismes in the Church of Rome and because I shall haue also occasion to add somthing to what I sayd aboue I thinke best to answer this Objection here also though by the same occasion it will cost me the labour of repeating some of those things which I haue already delivered If then 175. You haue no certainty in favour of your new Definition but only say why not rather or at least as well c why are you not content with the old one And then why do you object thâ—t which your selfe must answer for the old one But there lyes a snake vnder this smooth grasse and covertly you reach poyson vnder colour of milke Socinians make small account of the Church and Her Authority and would haue such an equality as might giue freedome for every one to follow his one fancy and begin a new Church and when all is done to say They divided not from the Church but one part from another and they themselves being one Part may as well as the other be called the Church and the other be as truly sayd to be divided from them as they from the Church and in a word all must come to be Substantives and independents in matters of Faith and Religion Thus your definition comes to be well connected with your saying That Luther and his fellowes departed not from the Church because still they remained a part of it and they departed not from themselves Thus also you would avoide that vnanswerable Argument of Charity Maint Part 1. Chap 5. N. 35. That seing there was a Division between Luther and that Church which was visible when he arose and that that Church cannot be sayd to haue divided herselfe from him before whose tyme she was and in comparison of whom she was a Whole and he but a part we must say that he divided himselfe and went out of Her Which is to be a Schismatike or Heretique or both Thus you may taxe S. John 2. Jo 19. saying they went out from vs and aske why rather from vs that is from the Church than that they made a Division of the Church dividing one part from another But indeed your glosse cannot agree to S. Johns text For these words They went out of vs do not only signify that there was a Division but that one part went out of a whole and not the contrary And the same Objection you may make against the Text Act 45.24 Some went out from vs. And Act 20.30 Out of you shall arise men speaking perverse things But as I sayd you may easily be confuted by the same reflection which I made vpon S. Johns words These Texts are vrged by Chaâ—ity Maintayned Part 1. Pag 251. to proue that separation from the vniversall Church is a marke of Heresy which he also proves out of Vincentius saying Lib Adversus Haer Cap 34. Who ever began Heresyes who did not first separate himselfe from the vniversality antiquity and consent of the Catholique Church Obserue that he saith from the vniversality of the Church and not a separation or Division of one part of the Church from another The same he proves out of S. Prosper Dimid temp Cap. 5. a Christian communicating with the vniversall Church is a Catholike and he who is divided from Her is an Heretike and Antichrist Behold still a separation from the Church and not a Division of one part of the Church from another And S Ciprian saith Lib de Vâ—â—t Eccles Not we departed from them but they from vs and since Heresyes and Schismes are bredd afterwards while they make to themselves diverse conventicles they haue forsaken the head and origen of truth Doth not this Saint clearly declare that Heretikes and Schismatiks depart from the Church and gives the reason because they haue their beginning after the Church and so the Church departs not from them but they from the Church which is the Argument even now cited out of Charity Maintayned Chap. 5. N. 35. S. Thomas 22. Quest â—9 Ar. Corp defines Schismatiks to be those who willingly and wittingly divide themselves ab vnitate Ecclesiae from the vnity of the Church S Hierome vpon those words Tit
places And therfore Charity Maintayned had reason to say that in this particular he never touched the Point really seing he himselfe destroyes what himselfe might seeme once to haue builded 5. All that you haue N. 10. is answered by saying that it is damnable not to belieue any least Point which the Church proposes to be a Divine trurh that is as revealed by God till which tyme one may erre without Heresy Now to determine what Points in particular be so proposed were to run overall particular Articles of Faith Yet to your instances I answer briefly The Quarta decimani who held that Easter was to be kept according to the Rite of the Jewes were justly condemned of Heresy not precisely for the Circumstance of Tyme but for the ground of that Assertion that it was necessary to doe so which would haue brought with it a necessity of keeping all the Rites of the Jewes And therfore you say vntruly that God had not then declared himselfe about Easter But the keeping of Chrismass day ten dayes sooner or later goes vpon no such ground For I never heard that the Jewes kept our Saviours Nativity either according to the new or old Calendar As for believing that there are Antipodes if you can produce any Text of Scripture or definition of Gods Church I will hold it a matter of Faith Sure I am it is a matter of reason not to produce such impertinent examples as you doe The same I say of Predetermination that what the Church shall determine will become a matter of Faith The example of Millenaryes and necessity of Eucharist for Infants which last you vntruly Father vpon S. Augustine you are still obtruding vpon vs without proving what you say as also that S. Austine did not hold it as a matter of Faith that the Bishops of Rome had Right and Power to judge of all appeales from all parts of the world and it is manifestly false that the Church ever determined the Doctrine of the Millenaryes or that S. Austine did deny the Pope had Right to judge of all appeales though for the Practise therof there might be just cause not to vse it promiscuously in all occasions You say Justine Martyr denyes that some good Christians held the contrary to the Millenaryes But even learned Protestants and more skillfull in the Greeke toung than you are interpret S. Justine Martyr in a direct contrary sense as I shew hereafter And in fine our Question is only concerning matters defined by the Church and not what any particular Doctour might hold It seemes you hold it not to be a matter of Faith that Heretikes may giue true Baptisme but S. Austine held and Gods Church believes it to be such and by this example we proue that some Points are matter of Faith which are not evidently contained in Scripture 6. To your N. 13. I answer Charity Maintayned N. 6. said not that a perswasion that men of different Religions may be saved is Atheisme but a ground of Atheisme yea he sayd not this absolutely but thus there is not a more pernicious Heresy or rather marke this modification a ground of Atheisme than a perswasion that men of different Religions may be saved Where you see such a Doctrine is not absolutely called Atheisme but only that it may be rather called a ground of Atheisme than a pure or ordinary kind of Heresy And I pray is not a perswasion that men of different Religions may be saved without repentance a ground and disposition either to deny the Deity which is to be worshipped ōly by a true Religion or not to care much for God or Religion And who would dislike this saying of Charity Maintayned pronounced in generall except a Socinian or some such creature Yourselfe say N. 8. That to deny a thing sufficiently proposed to be revealed by God is to giue God the lye and to say that men may be saved who giue God the lye is it not a ground and disposition to end in Atheisme Potter saith Pag 212. Whatsoever is revealed in Scripture or propounded by the Church out of Scripture is in some sense fundamentall in regard of the Divine Authority of God and his word by which it is recommended that as such is may not be denyed or contradicted without infidelity Why do you not question the Doctor and aske how he can be an infidell who believes the true God Remember your owne saying that the naturall fecundity of errour is to beget Errour And so what will follow of freedom and indifferency for all beliefes of which one only can be true but a flitting from one Errour to another till they hold no Religion at all But the truth is you could not impugne Charity Maintayned but by changing or rather falsifying the Question which was whether men of different Religions may be saved without repentance and you say they may be saved by repentance wherby it may seeme you do not deny but it were a ground of Atheisme to assirme that men of different Religions may be saved without any repentance though they liue and dy in their errour 7. The rest of your Answer being only an Answer to such Demands as Charity Maintayned proposed which haue been handled at large in other places I will only briefly note First what you say Pag 18. N. 26. in these words why an implicite Faith in Christ and his word should not suffice as well as an implicite Faith in your Church I haue desired to be resolved by many of your side but never could hath been expressly answered Chap 2. where I haue shewed that Scripture alone neither extensiue containes all necessary Points of Faith nor as I may say intensiue seing euen those Articles which it containes for the true and certaine vnderstāding of them require the authority of the church to say nothing that we cannot haue an implicite Faith in the Scripture vnless it be resolved into our beliefe of the Church for whose authority we receaue Scripture it selfe Secondly That N. 19. you answer not directly to the Question of Charity Maintayned Part 1. P. 15. N. 12. What visible Church was there before Luther disagreeing with the pretended Church of Protestants But transferr it from a Church to particular men as if it were necessary for vs to shew that every man agreed with the Roman Church seing we know many particular men haue fallen into errours but we affirme that before Luther there was no visible true Orthodox Church which disagreed from the Roman and particularly in those Points wherin Protestants disagree from vs. Thirdly that Pag 23. N 27. as it should be you accuse vs of want of Charity even while you are in the act of giving the same ill measure to vs saying that for want of Charity to Protesiants we alwayes suspect the worst of them and what greater want of Charity can there be in you than not only to suspect but to pronounce and proclaime in print that we want Charity which is
grace who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledg of truth Where you see Ch Ma saith it is in our power with Gods grace to find that saving Truth which is but one and is to be found only in the true visible Church of Christ and so it must 〈◊〉 our fault if we misse therof and consequently that our errours will be sinfull and that we cannot effectually repent of them without passing to the Truth that is without destroying those culpable sinfull errours which by Gods grace is in our power to destroy by embracing the contrary truths And afterward Ch Ma saith that the search of this truth will not proue so hard and intricate as men imagine because God hath endued his visible Church with so conspicuous markes of vnity and agreement in Doctrine Vniversality for tyme and place a never interrupted Succession of Pastours a perpetuall visibility from the Apostles to vs c. far beyond any probable pretence that can be made by any other congregations that whosoever doth seriously and vnpartially weigh these notes may easily discerne to what Church they belong Thus Ch Ma to shew how culpable and inexcusable they are who do not actually embrace Catholique Religion and forsake all other Congregations and errours And yet to take away all possibility for you to deceiue the world with this vnjust calumnie Ch Ma hath these very words Let not men flatter and deceiue themselves that ignorance will excuse them For there are so many and so easy and yet withall so powerfull meanes to find the true Church that it is a most dangerous ād pernicious errour to rely vpon the excuse of invincible ignorance What could he haue sayd more than to stile the Hope of Salvation by meanes of ignorance a pernicious errour Yet more and more to confute your calumnie and declare his owne sense he adds I wish them to consider that he can least hope for reliefe by ignorance who once confides therin because his very alledging of ignorance shewes that God hath put some thoughts into his mynd of seeking the safest way which if he relying on Gods Grace do carefully and constantly endeavour to examine discusse and perfitt he shall not faile to find what he seekes and to obtaine what he askes Now if Ch Ma teach so effectually that none must hope to be saved by ignorance with what truth or justice can you say that in his opinion Protestants may be saved without actually retracting their sinfull errours Nay I am sure Ch Ma believes that if God will in his Goodness bring a man to Salvation he will be sure by his Wisdome to apply those Meanes which in the ordinary course of his holy providence he hath appointed for that end which is to embrace the true Faith and to be a true member of the true visible Church 3. You pretend to beleeue that de facto God will bring none to heaven without Faith in Christ and beliefe of Christian Religion If then one should aske whether a Pagan or Jew or Turke could be saved with an vniversall sorrow for all his errours and sins knowne and vnknowne what would you answer If you say they might be saved you contradict yourselfe and grant that Salvation may be had without faith in Christ If you say they could not be saved because God de facto hath appointed Faith in Christ as a necessary condition or meanes for Salvation The same I answer in our case that God hath decreed to saue none without true Faith which is only in the true Uisible Church yea to be a true Christian and to be a Catholike is all one there being not any other true Christian Faith than that which is taught by the Catholique Church nor is there any true Church of Christ but One and therfore as you pretend to hold Christian Faith to be necessary for Salvation you should also hold the same of the Catholique Faith and consequently that none can be saved with any sinfull errour contrary to that Faith nor that it can be true Repentance which doth not exclude any such errour And all that you can Object against this truth may be objected in behalfe of Jewes or Turks against your pretended beliefe that Faith in Christ is necessary to Salvation They might I say demand of you why they may not haue true Contrition and pardon of their sins by a generall repentance of all their offences knowne and vnknowne and among the rest of their errours against or ignorance of Christian Religion and what you answer to them will serve for a confutation of your Arguments against vs. For this cause Charity Maintayned Part 1. Pag 28 N. 3. saith that we hope and pray for the conversion of Protestants and surely our meaning is not that they be converted to vs by remaining in their former beliefe contrary to vs. But Ch M. need not wonder that you falsify him seing you are not ashamed to say Pag 34. N. 6. that according to the grounds of our Catholike Religion Protestants may dy in their supposed errours either with excusable ignorance or with contrition and if they do so may be saved But I beseech you out of what Ground or Principle of Catholique Religion can you dreame to collect that Protestants can be saved by ignorance or with Contrition remayning formall Protestants And it is a comfort for Ch Ma to be calumniated by you in that very thing wherin you calumniate the whole Church of God In the meane tyme by what I haue sayd innumerable places I may say the chiefest part of your Booke are answered which goe vpon this false ground that men may be saved without relinquishing their sinfull and damnable errours which you perpetually affirme without any proofe And what reason can be given why a man cannot be saved without relinquishing other deadly sins for example Hatred Perjury Theft c. and yet that it is not necessary to forsake errours confessed to be sinfull and damnable But it is no wonder that Heretikes are willing to sooth their Heresyes with false priviledges denyed to all other deadly sins 4. To your numbers 1.2.3.4.5.6 I haue answered already You say Pag 33. N. 4. the truth is the corruption of the Church and the destruction of it is not all one For if a particular man or Church may as you confesse they may hold some particular errours and yet be a member of the Church vniversall why may not the Church hold some vniversall errour and yet be still the Church Especially seing you say it is nothing but opposing the Doctrine of the Church that makes an errour damnable and it is impossible that the Church should oppose the Church I meane that the present Church should oppose itselfe Why do you stopp here and not goe forward to declare what lyes involued in your discourse thus In the tyme of the Apostles if a particular man or Church might haue held some errour and yet remained a member of the Church
men may be saved why should or how can the Churches being furnished with effectuall meanes to determine all Controversyes in Religion be necessary to salvation the end itselfe to which these meanes are ordained being as experience shewes not necessary But the Answer to this objection hath been given already For some thing may be necessary for some persons at some tyme in some Circumstances which are not necessary vniversally for all Persons Tymes and Circumstances as I specifyed in the Councell of the Apostles in Canonicall writings which written vpon some particular occasion yet require an vniversall beliefe and in generall Councells which you and Potter affirme to oblige as we haue seene aboue Indeed your peremtory wild demand Why should or how can the Churches being furnished with effectuall Meanes to determine all Controversyes be necessary c might well by your leaue beseeme some Jew asking why should or how can Christian Religion be necessary to salvation if for many Ages it was not in Being and yet in the meane tyme men were saved Or why should or how can the believing and obeying the Definition of the Apostles in their Councell or the beliefe of the Gospells and other Canonicall writings be necessary to salvation if for many ages such beliefe was not required and in the meane tyme men were saued Or why should or how can infallibility be necessary to write the Scripture if the writing of Scripture was not necessary but that men were sayed without it You say in the same N. 7. I grant that the meanes to decide Controversyes of Faith and Religion must be indued with an vniversall infallibility in whatsoever it propoundeth for a Divine Truth For if it may be false in any one thing of this nature we can yield vnto it but a wavering and fearfull assent in any thing Which words seeme not to agree with what you add against Charity Maintayned in his N. 7. 8. that an vniversall infallibility must be granted to that meanes wherby controversyes in Faith are to be determined vnless men haue a mynd to reduce Faith to opinion of which words you say you do not perceyue how from the denyall of any of the grounds which Charity Maintayned layd it would follow that Faith is Opinion or from the granting them that it is not so For my part I do not perceyue how it was possible for you not to perceyue it since you confess that without an vniversall infallibility we could yield vnto such a meanes but wavering and fearfull assent a and what is this but opinion or a meere humane Faith As contrarily if the Meanes or Motiue for which I assent be infallible and I belieue it to be so and assent with an act proportionable to that motiue my assent must needs be certaine and infallible and not a wavering and fearfull assent If this be not so why do you require infallibility in the said meanes Certainly infallibility is not necessary to beget a wavering and fearfull assent 13. You would gladly free yourselfe of that just imputation that you confound Divine Faith with opinion But your tergiversation argues you guilty You bring I know not what parityes betwen Faith and Opinion but decline the maine difference That Divine Faith is absolutely certaine and infallible Opinion not You being conscious of your Antichristian Doctrine That Christian Faith exceeds not probability dissemble the chiefe difference which I haue declared and you will never be able to acquit yourselfe of that griēvous but just accusation that you change Divine Faith into opinion Wheras you say that as opinion so Faith admitts degrees and that as there maybe a strong and weake opinion so there may be a strong and weake Faith and add that Ch Ma if he be in his right mynd will not deny it I answer that still you sticke to your false ground that Christian Faith is not infallible Otherwise you would not make this comparison between the weakness and strength of Opinion and Faith which in its essence excludes all falshood As contrarily Opinion is not free from all feare least it be false 14. The confutation of your N. 8. about the infallibility of Christian Faith is the subject of my first Chapter and therfore I need say no more here except only to aske what you can vnderstand by these words of yours But though the essence of Faith exclude not all weakness and imperfection yet may it be enquired whether any certainty of Faith vnder the highest degree may be sufficient to please God and attaine salvation Can the very essence of Faith be weake and imperfect and yet the degrees therof be certaine in the highest degree and exclude that weakness and imperfection which the essence doth not exclude is not the whole essence of Faith in every degree or graduall perfection therof But as I sayd directly contrary to that which your words seeme to sound the very essence of Faith excludes all weaknesse that is all falshood and doubtfulnesse and every graduall entity therof includes such a certainty though one mans Faith within the compasse of the same essence may exceed the Faith of another in graduall perfections as contrarily though Opinion may haue many graduall entityes yet none of them can exclude formidinem oppositi a feare that the contrary may proue true which if any particular degree of intension did exclude it were not Opinion but a certaine knowledge and so could not be a degree of intension vnder the species or essence of Opinion but an assent essentially distinct from all Opinion 15. In your N. 9. I obserue that you do not only grant the possibility of a certainty of adherence in the will beyond the certainty of evidence in the vnderstanding but also a certainty of knowledge in the vnderstanding aboue the strength of probable Motives or Arguments of Credibility For you say they know marke this word know what they did but belieue and are as fully and resolutely assured of the Gospell of Christ as those which heard it from Christ himselfe with their eares which saw it with their eyes which looked vpon it and whose hands handled the word of life If God can do this with his Grace seing Christian Faith requires the Grace of God why do you deny that by it we are no less assured that the Objects of Faith are true than if we had seene them with our eyes c The rest of this number is answered Chap 1. 16. You are pleased N. 10. to delight yourselfe and deceiue others with a wild collection as you stile it fathered on Ch Ma being only a brood of your owne braine The case stands thus Ch Ma N. 8. hath these words Out of the Principles which I haue layd That there must be in Gods Church some meanes for deciding Controversyes in Faith and that it must be indued with an vniversall infallibility in whatsoever it propounds as spoken by God it vndeniably followes that of two men dissenting in matters of Faith the
knowledge of Scripture Do not these words speake of the first Principle among Christians who alone receiue Scripture and not of Principles in Metaphysicke Mathematicke c which were nothing to the purpose Or who ever dreamed that Scripture could be the most knowne in all sciences seing it is not knowne by any naturall science but depends on Divine Revelation Yea doth not Ch Ma expressly say That if Potter meane Scripture to be one of those Principles which being the first and most knowne in all sciences cannot be Demonstrated by other Principles He supposes that which is in question Which words declare That Scripture is none of those Principles which are most knowne either in all naturall sciences or in Christianity 16. Out of what hath beene sayd very often it is easy to answer and retort all that you haue in all your sections till the N. 62. For to vs who belieue the Church of God to be infallible diversity of Tranlations or corruptions can bring no harme seeing we are sure that the Church can neverapproue any false Translation or corruption nor ground vpon them any Point of Faith But for you who deny the infallibility of the Church and rely vpon Scripture alone false Translations or corruptions may import no less than the losse of your soules by being led into some damnable errour or left in ignorance of some Point necessary to salvation For to rely vpon Scripture alone and yet not to know with certainty what Scripture in particular is Canonicall and incorrupted is to take away all certainty from it and from the Faith of Protestants grounded on it alone The Church did exist before any Scripture was written and must last although we should imagine that all Scripture were lost as some say it happened to the Old Testament at least it lay hid Only I must note for answer to your N. 58. and 59. that Catholikes object to Protestants not only difference of Translations of which you speake N. 59. but that one of them most deeply condemnes the Translation of the other as Ch Ma Pag 52. N. 16. sets downe at large As for the vulgate Translation approved by the sacred Councell of Trent we are sure that it can containe no errour against Faith and for diverse Readings we are certaine that the Church can never approue any one that is false or settle any doctrine vppon it as I sayd even now But to treate at large of this Translation would require a Uolume and is not for this tyme for my or even your purpose In your N. 61 you pretend to make good or excuse Luther who in the Text where it is said Rom 3.28 We account a man to be justifyed by Faith translates justifyed by Faith Alone and in stead of proving you only ask What such great difference is there between Faith without the works of the Law and Faith alone without the works of the Law Or why does not without Alone signifie all one with Alone Without Answer there is as great difference between those two Propositions as betwene Truth and Falshood That a man is justifyed by Faith without the works of the Law is a truth believed both by Catholiques and Protestants for both of vs belieue that Faith concurres to justification But that other Proposition A man is justifyed by Faith alone without the works of the Law signifyes that we are not justifyed by the works of the Law but by Faith alone that is by nothing but by Faith which is false and excludes justification by Hope Charity and works of Christian piety and accordingly Luther being admonished of this shamefull falsification answered poenitet me quod non addiderim illas duas voces omnibus omnium vz. sine omnibus operibus omnium legum Besides it is strang you will defend this falsification of Alone seing Pag 406. N. 32. you wish that those Chapters of S. Paul which intreat of justification by Faith without the works of the Law were never read in the Church but wheÌ„ the 13. Chap of the 1. Epist to the Corinth Concerning the absolute necessity of Charity should be to prevent misprision read togeather with theÌ„ But then good Sr. what danger of misprision must it needs be when people shall think S. Paul spoke of Faith Alone as Luther makes him speak To this may be added what you haue Pag 218. N. 49. of the danger of justification by Faith alone Neither I nor others with whom I haue confered can make any sense of your other workes Or why does not Without c. The translation of Zuinglius This signifyes my Body in stead of This is my Body is rejected by Protestants themselves where of see Brereley Tract 2. Cap 3. Sect. 9. Subd 3. 17. In your N 62. till the 80 inclusiue you vainly triumph as if you did invincibly proue that according to our Groundes mens salvation depends vpon vncertaintyes All which I haue answered at large hertofore 18. Concerning your N. 83 I desire the Reader to consider what Charity Maintayned recites out of Dr Couell about our vulgate Tanslation of Scripture and he will find that your Answer to that particular is but a vaine speculation and that he supposes the Translation which is called the Bishops Bible and is approved in England to be the best as coming neerest to the vulgate which had been no proofe at all vnless he had also supposed the Vulgate to be the best all things considered and so made it a Rule to Judge of the goodness and quality of that English Translation 19. To your N. 86. I answer that if Dr Field when he saith in his Treatise of the Church in his Epistle Dedicatory to the L. Archbishop Seeing the Controversyes of Religion in our tymes are growne in number so many and in nature so intricate that few haue tyme and leasure fewer strength of vnderstanding to examine them what remayneth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to search out which among all the societyes in the world is that blessed Company of holy Ones that how should of Faith that Spouse of Christ and Church of the living God which is the Pillar and Ground of Truth that so they may imbraâ—e her Communion follow her directions and rest in her judgment If I say Dr. Field did not thinke of any company of Christians invested with such Authority from God that all men were bound to receiue their decrees as you say he did not I can only say that when he spoke of searching out that Blessed Company of holy Ones c he spoke of a Chimera or of a thing impossible and yet he saith that there remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence only this that they search out which among all the societyes in the world is that Blessed Company of holy Ones c which had bene nothing els but to bring men to desperation by prescribing one only meanes for salvation and that an
impossible one And that he and other Protestants do but cosin the world and speake contradictions or non-sense when they talke of a perpetuall visible Church which cannot erre in Fundamentall Points and whose Communion we are to embrace and yet tell vs that such a visible Church cannot be designed in particular where and which she is For this is all one as to make her invisible and vncognoscible and of no vse at all and therfore they being forced by manifest Scripture to assert and belieue a perpetuall visible Church we must without asking them leaue necessarily inferr that this Church by their owne necessary confession must be designable and cognoscible in particular You say By all societyes of the world it is not impossible nor very improbable he might meane all that are or haue beene in the world and so include even the Primitiue Church But this is no better then ridiculous For he saith What remaineth but diligently to search out which among all societyes in the world is that Church of the liuing God which is the Pillar and Ground of Truth that so they may imbrace her Communion c You see he speakes of that society of men which is the Church and which is the Pillar of Truth and would haue men search it out wheras the Primitiue Church neither is but hath beene nor was it for but directly against the Doctours purpose to advise men to search out the Primitiue Church and her Doctrine which had required tyme and leasure and strength of vnderstanding which he saith few men haue and therfore he must vnderstand a Church to be found in these tymes whose Directions they should follow and rest in her judgment To say as you doe that we embrace her Communion if we belieue the Scripture endeavour to find the true sense of it and liue according to it is very fond as if the Doctour spoke of Scripture when he named the Church and in saying we are to embrace the Communion of the Church he meant we should embrace the Communion of Scripture which had beene a strang kind of phrase and in advising vs to seeke out that society of men and that Company of Holy Ones he vnderstood not men but the writings of men Do not your selfe say that the subject he wrote of was the Church and that if he strayned too high in commendation of it what is that to vs Therfore it is cleare he spoke not of the Scripture in commendation wherof you will not say he strayned too high but of the Church and of the Church of our tymes and so saith the Controversyes of Religion in our tymes are growne c But why do I loose tyme in confuting such toyes as these It being sufficient to say in a word that Protestants in this capitall Article of the invisibility and infallibility of the Church are forced to vtter some mayne Truthes in favour of Catholikes though with contradiction to themselves 20. In your N. 87. You do but trifle Charity Maintayned N. 18. said That the true interpretation of Scripture ought to be receâ—ved from the Church is proved c To this you answer That the true interpretation of the Scripture ought to be reveaved from the Church you need not proue for it is very easily granted by them who professe themselves ready to receaue all Truthes much more the true sense of Scripture not only from the Church but any society of men nay from any man whatsoever But who sees not that this is but a cavill and that Charity Maintayned to the Question which was in hand from whence the interpretation of Scripture was to be received answered it is to be received from the Church And I pray if one should say the knowledge or truth of Philosophy is to be received from Philosophers would you say this need not be proved nor even affirmed to them who profess themselves ready to receiue all Truths not only from Philosophers but from any man whatsoever 21. You labour N. 90.91.92 to proue that Protestants receiue not the Scripture vpon the Authority of our Church but in vaine For what true Church of Christ was there when Luther appeared except the Roman and such as agreed with her even in those Points wherin Protestants disagree from vs and for which they pretend to haue forsaken our Communion Doth not Luther in his Booke against Anabaptists confess that you haue the Scripture from vs And Doue in his persw sion to English Recusants c Pag 13. sayth Wee hold the Creed of the Apostles of Athanasius of Nyce of Ephesus of Constantinople and the same Byble which we receyved from them And Whitaker Lib de Eccles c Pag 369. confesseth that Papists hâ—ue Scripture and Baptisme c and that they came from them to Protestants That you receiue some Bookes and reject others which the vniversall Church before Luther received argues only that you are formall Heretikes that is voluntary choosers and that not believing the infallibility of the Church you haue no certainty of any Booke or parcell or period of Scripture And wheras you say N. 90. that we hold now those Bookes to be Canonicall which formerly we rejected from the Canon and instance in the Booke of Machabees and the Epistle to the Hebrewes and add that the first of these we held not to be Canonicall in S. Gregoryes tyme or els he was no member of our Church for it is apparent He held otherwise and that the second we rejected from the Canon in S. Hieromes tyme as it is evâ—dent out of many places in his workes I answer that it is impossible the Church should now hold those Bookes to be Canonicall which formerly she rejected from the Canon and if there were any doubt concerning these Bookes of Scripture they were not doubted of by any Definition of the Church but by some particular persons which doubt the Church did cleare in due tyme as I haue declared heretofore and answered your Objection out of S. Gregory about the Machabees as also Charity Maintayned Part 2. Pag 195. which you ought not to haue dissembled did answer the same Objection made by Potter Concerning the Epistle to the Hebrewes I beseech the Reader to see what Baronius anno Christi 60. N. 42. seqq writes excellently of this matter and demonstrates that the Latine Church never rejected that Epistle as he proves out of Authors who wrote both before and after S. Hierome and that S. Hierome relyed vpon Eusebius and therfore your absolute Assertion that this Epistle was rejected in tyme of S. Hierome is no lesse vntrue than bold Neither ought you to haue concealed the answer of Char Maintayn Part 2. Chap 7. Pag 197. where he saith thus Wonder not if S. Hierome speake not always in the same manner of the Canon of the Old Testament since vpon experience examination and knowledge of the sense of the Church he might alter his opinion as once he sayd ad Paulinum of the
say that in S. Irenaeus his tyme all the Churches were at an agreement about the Fundamentalls of Faith which vnity was a good assurance that what they so agreed in came from some one common fountaine and they had no other than Apostolique Preaching How I say could you speake thus your doctrine considered that we cannot know what Points are Fundamentall and so we cannot know whether Churches be at an agreement in them and consequently cannot from such an agreement in Fundamentalls haue a good assurance that what they so agreed in came from the fountaine of Apostolique Preaching Every where you are found clearly to contradict yourselfe 59. In answer to your N. 149.150.151.152.153 I will first set downe the words of Charity Maintayned and then answer what you object Thus saith Charity Maintayned Part 1. Pag 71. N. 25. The doctrine of Protestants is destructiue of itselfe For either they haue certaine and infallible meanes not to erre in interpreting Scripture or they haue not If not then the Scripture to them cannot be a sufficiēt ground for infallible Faith nor a meete Judge of Controversyes If they haue certaine infallible meanes and so cannot erre in their interterpretations of Scripture then they are able with infallibility to heare examine and determine all Controversyes of Faith and so they may be and are Judges of Controversyes although they vse the Scripture as a Rule And thus against their owne doctrine they constitute another Judge of Controversyes beside Scripture alone 60. Against this discourse you object with great pompe of words If we Catholiks haue certaine and infallible meanes for the choyse of the Church then we are able with infallibility to determine all Controversyes of Faith although we pretend to make the Church our Guide And then say you N. 149. We constitute another Iudge of Controversyes besides the Church alone nay every one of vs makes himselfe a chooser of his owne Religion and of his owne sense of the Churches decrees which very thing we so highly condemne in Protestants 61. Answer we haue certaine meanes to belieue with an infallible Faith that the Catholique Church is an infallible Judge of controversyes as we haue proved hertofore at large in diverse Occasions But then to say that by this meanes i.e. by believing the Church to be the Judge of controversyes we are able of our selves with infallibility to determine all controversyes and do constitute another Iudge of controversyes besides the Church alone I am so farr from vnderstanding it that to me it seemes no better than non-sense as a man who in some cause makes choyse of a Iudge whom he believes to be just wise and in every respect fit for such an office cannot be sayd to constitute another judge beside him of whom he makes choise nor to make himselfe Iudge Do you not teach that the Church proposes to vs Canonicall Scripture and that Scripture is the sole Rule of Faith wherby all controversyes are determined and yet you will not inferr from thence that the Church is a Rule of Faith wherby all controversyes are determined and not Scripture alone It is you who here N. 153 say for the latter part of this inference that every one makes himselfe judg of controversyes we acknowledge and embrace it We do make ourselves Iudges of controuersyes And this you must grant not only for the choyse of your Religion but for the sense of Scripture and consequently for determining all controversyes of Faith and so you are Iudges of controversyes as Ch Ma inferred wheras Catholikes in all controversyes hold themselves obliged to follow the determination of the Church and not of their owne vnderstanding as you doe How farr we may and do make vse of Reason in matters of Religion we haue declared aboue And even yourselfe Pag 376. N. 56. speaking of Scripture say Propose me any thing out of this Booke and require whether I belieue it or not and seeme it never so incomprehensible to humane reason I will subscribe with hand and hart as knowing no demonstration can be stronger than this God hath sayd so therfore it is true Which words though they cannot be spoken sincerely and with consequence by you who resolue Faith into humane probable Arguments of reason yet they shew that even in reason Reason ought to submitt to Authority We haue also shewed the difference between the Scripture which is always the same and the Decrees of the Church which in all occasions can clearly declare Her meaning if any difficulty occurre about her former Decrees or Definitions 62. But I pray where did Charity Maintayned frame this Argument which you N. 150. terme a transparent fallacy Protestants haue no meanes to interpret without errour obscure and ambiguons places of Scripture therfore plaine places of Scripture cannot be to them a sufficient ground of Faith You know there neither is nor can be any Question at all whether plaine places be not plaine to those to whom they are plaine nor whether such plaine places may not be a sufficient ground of Faith in respect of persons to whom and Matters wherin they are plaine The Point is and you know it to be so whether scripture be plaine in all Points necessary to be believed which we deny and you often affirme but can never be able to proue and I haue demonstrated that even those Texts which you pretend to be most plaine and expresly alledge for instances of such plainesse are not such but containe difficulty if we respect the sense and not the bare words which may be plaine to Pagans Jewes Turkes and to all who vnderstand the language in which Scripture was written And therfore you do not satisfy your owne Demand wherin you speake thus to Charity maintayned If you aske me how I can be sure that I know the true meaning of these plaine places I aske you againe can you be sure that you vnderstand what I or any man else sayes They that heard our Saviour and the Apostles preach could they haue sufficient assurance that they vnderstood at any tyme what they would haue them doe If not to what end did they heare them If they could why may not we be as well assured that we vnderstand sufficiently what we conceiue plaine in their writings 63. Answer If he who speakes be not sufficiently vnderstood he may be asked and he who askes may be satisfyed by a further declaration of the speaker which holds not in Scripture as I am forced often to repeate Besides when things are spoken the present Tyme Place Argument and other circumstances may giue much more light than when they are barely written devested of such helpes In which case if a word can be found but once in the whole Bible to signify such or such a thing perhaps it may breede a doubt whether in other places it be not so taken of which no doubt would haue beene made in case that in all places it had the same signification Yea we see
in this is persumption For although it were granted which yet is very false that they differ only in Points not Fundamentall yet I haue reason to find fault with the answer because they giue it to shew that notwitstanding their disagreement in Points not Fundamentall yet they are Brethren and may all be in state of salvation which to affirme is both very false and very pernicious seing that errour in any Point revealed by God and sufficiently proposed for such is damnable and excludes salvation even according to your owne doctrine and therfore this Answer doth not free them from what Charity maintayned objected that they abuse this distinction and to this you should haue answered without declining it by impertinent diversions and demands The other part of your Dilemma is this If you say they do not so that is differ not only in not Fundamentalls but in Points Fundamentall also then they are not members of the same Church one with another no more than with you And therfore why should you object to any of them their differences from each other any more then to yourselves their more and greater differences from you Thus you still flying a direct answerto Ch. Ma. and yet granting perforce all that he desires If say you Protestants differ in Points Fundamentall then they are not members of the same Church one with another And then say I they perniciously abuse people with this distinction to perswade them the direct contrary of that which even yourselfe here inferr to perswade men I say that they are members of the same Church and capable of salvation and Brethren though according to your supposition in this part of your Dilemma they differ in Points Fundamentall And this is that to which you should haue answered whether they do not abuse this distinction and either haue acquitted them or done Ch. Ma. Right by an open confession of his saying truly They abuse this distinction You say If Protestants differ in Fundamentalls they are not members of the same Church one with another no more than with vs Catholikes If this beso the more vnreasonable inconsequent and vnjust are they in pretending to be Brethren one to another and yet enemyes to vs wherby you do still more and more make good that they abuse this distinction in pretending to be Brethren one to another and not to vs especially if we call to mynd that many of their chiefest learned men in diverse most important matters agree with vs against other Protestants and yet they must be Brethren and we enemyes even in those very Points in which they agree with vs against other Protestants which is very prodigious 5. Your last words either passe my vnderstanding or else are no better than ridiculous You say to vs Why should you object to any of them their differences from each other any more than to yourselves their more and greater differences from you For my part I can draw no better Argument from these words than this we object to Protestants who pretend to be Brethren of the same Church substance of Faith and hope of salvation that they differ in Fundamentall Points of Faith for as I sayd you speake expressly of such Points in this second Part of your Dilemma therfore we may as well object to ourselves their more and greater differences frō vs frō vs I say who daily proclaime to the world that neither they nor any other Heretikes are our Brethren or of the same Faith Church and hope of salvation How can we object to ourselves a thing wherin we proceede with most evident consequence and Truth If indeed we did pretend to be their Brethren then we might and ought to object against ourselves the great differences between them and vs as now with reason we make such an objection against them But our case being directly contrary to theirs we are obliged to proceed in a contrary way and to professe that there can be no communication of light with darkeness of falshood with truth of Heresy with Catholique doctrine 6. You say in your N. 10. What els do we vnderstand by an vnfundamentall errour but such a one with which a man may possibly be saved I aske whether he may be saved with Repentance or without it If only with Repentance you make no difference between Fundamentall and vnfundamentall Points because with repentance any errour may be forgiven be it never so Fundamentall If you meane a man may be saved with such an errour even without repentance you contradict yourselfe who perpetually affirme that errours not Fundamentall are damnable in themselves and cannot be pardoned without repentance And I haue proved it to be impossible that any culpable errour can be forgiven without relinquishing it 7. To yuur N. 11.12 13.14 I haue answered in severall occasions Only for your N. 11. it must be remembred that I haue proved Communion in Liturgie Sacraments c to be essentiall to the Visible Church which makes your similitude of renouncing the vices of a friend and yet not renouncing a friend to be impertinent because vices are not essentiall to a friend as externall Communion is essentiall to the Church which therfore must needs be forsaken when one departs from that which is essentiall to her 8. Your N. 15.16.17 containe no other difficulty except that which yourselfe create out of nothing while you faine this roving argument and then impute it to Cha Ma Whosoever disbelieues any thing knowen by himselfe to be revealed by God imputes falshood to God and therfore errs Fundamentally But some Protestants disbelieue things which other belieue to be testifyed by God therfore they impute falshood to God and erre Fundamentally But why do you seeke to deceiue the ignorant with such Sophismes as these Doth not Charity Maintayned speake expressly of the case wherin there is Question between two contradicting one another cōcerning some Point which God hath revealed And therfore one of the litigants must really erre against Divine Revelation on and be a formall Heretike if ignorance chance not to excuse him which though perhaps some will conceiue may happen in one or two or a few yet to belieue that whole congregations and Churches should be excused by invincible ignorance notwithstanding all meanes of knowledg that God failes not to affoard can be neither discreete Charity nor charitable discretion but a dangerous and pernicious occasion and incitement to sloath and neglect of seeking the true religion vpon confidence of finding a lawfull excuse by ignorance You say Pag 21. If any Protestant or Papist be betrayed into or kept in any Errour by any sin of his will as it is to be feared many millions are such Errour is as the cause of it sinfull and damnable And Pag 19. and 20. you deny not but that the far greater part of Protestants faile in vsing sufficient diligence to find the truth and that their errours are damnable therfore Ch Ma might well say not only that per
common Doctrine of Protestants and the supposition If you answer that though there were not the selfe same reason or necessity for the Churches infallibility as for the Apostles which is all that that reason proves and so is a Sophisme a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter as if you should say This Truth is not proved by this particular reason therefore there can be no reason for it yet we cannot doubt but that there is some reason and cause whatsoever it be and therfore you must be content that Scripture declare God Almightyes Will that the Gates of Hell shall not prevaile against the Church in which Promise seing there is no restraint to Fundamentall Points it becomes not you to divide the same sentence into different meanings as they are applyed to the Apostles and as they haue reference to the Church Beside if one would imitate you in determining concerning divine matters according to humane apprehension and discourse he might in your owne Grounds quickly dispatch all and say that seing the errours of the vniversall Church can be only not Fundamentall there is no necessity of having recourse to any for the discovering and correcting them and so you cannot inferr that the Apostles for reforming errours in the Church need be infallible in Points not Fundamentall no more than you say the Church herselfe is Thus Pag 35. N. 7 You say Christians haue and shall haue meanes sufficient to determine not all Controversyes but all necessary to be determined And what Rule will you in your Groundes giue to determine what Points are necessary to be determined except by saying that eo ipso that they are not Fundamentall or not necessary to salvation to be believed they are not necessary to be determined as you say in the same place If some Controversyes may for many Ages be vndetermined and yet in the meane while men may be saved why should or how can the Churches being furnished with effectuall meanes to determine all Controversyes in Religion be necessary to salvation the end itselfe to which these meanes are ordained being as Experience shewes not necessary If then may we say the beliefe of vnfundamentall Points be not necessary to salvation which is the end of our Faith the meanes to beget such a Faith in the Church which you say must be the vniversall infallibility of the Apostles cannot be necessary Which is confirmed by what you say in your Answer to the Direction N. 32. It is not absolutely necessary that God should assist his Church any farther than to bring her to salvation How then can it be necessary in your ground that the Church be assisted for Points not Fundamentall Thus while by your humane discourses you will establish the vniversall infallibility of the Apostles you destroy it as not being necessary for discovering or correcting either Fundamentall errours from which the Church is free or vnfundamentall which are not necessary to be corrected or discovered Morover this very reason of yours proves a necessity of the Churches being vniversally infallible supposing the truth which we proved Chap 2. that Scripture alone containes not evidently and particularly all Points necessary to be believed and that even for those which it containes a Living Judge and Interpreter is necessary For this truth supposed I apply your Argument thus If any fall into errour by a false interpretation of Scripture it may be discovered and corrected by the Church But if the Church may erre to whom shall we haue recourse for correcting her errour And heere incidently I put you in minde of the Argument which you prize so much as to glory that you never could finde any Catholik who was able to answer it that if a particular man or Church may fall into errour and yet remaine a member of the Church vniversall why may not the Church vniversall erre and yet remaine a true Church The Answer I say is easy almost out of your owne words that there is not the same reason for every particular mans or Churches infallibility or security from error as for that of the Catholik Church For if private persons or Churches fall into errour it may be reformed by comparing it with the Decrees and Definitions of the vniversall Church But if the Church may erre to whom shall we haue recourse to correct her error As S. Hierom saieth Lib 1. Comment in Cap 5. Matth Si doctor erraverit à quo alio doctore emendabitur But of this I haue saied enough heretofore Lastly giue me leaue to tell you that in this and other Reasons which we shall examine you do extremely forget yourself and the state of our present Question which is not now whether there be the same reason or necessity for the Churches absolute infallibility as for the Apostles and Scriptures But whether we can proue the vniversall infallibility of the Apostles and not of the Church by the same Text of Scripture which speakes of both in the same manner But let vs heare your other reasons of disparity betweene the Apostles and the Church in Point of infallibility 34. You say in the same N. 30. There is not so much strength required in the Edifice as in the Foundation And if but wise men haue the ordering of the building they will make it much a surer thing that the Foundation shall not faile the building then that the building shall not fall from the Foundation Now the Apostles and Prophets and Canonicall Writers are the Foundation of the Church according to that of S. Paul built vpon the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets therfore their stability in reason ought to be greater than the Churches which is built vpon them 35. Answer Your conclusion therfore their stability in reason ought c shewes that you ground yourselfe on reason not on revelation and on a reason which is not so much as probable For you will not deny but that God might haue communicated absolute infallibility both to the Apostles and to the Church yet to the Church dependently of the preaching of the Apostles and then what would you haue sayd to your owne ground In reason more strength is required in the Foundation than in the Edifice seing in that case both the Foundation and Edifice should haue had an immoveable and firme strength and stability Your reason if you will haue it proue any thing against vs must goe vpon this principle that nothing which depends or which is builded vpon another for its certainty can be absolutely certaine which is a ground evidently false The Conclusion in a demonstratiue Argument is abfolutly certaine and yet depends on Premises The Church is infallible in Fundamentalls and yet in that infallibility is builded vpon the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets The absolute infallibility of the Apostles was builded vpon our B. Saviours Words and even his infallibility as man was builded vpon the infallibility of his God head and yet I hope you will not say that
Potter to proue that the Church cannot erre against any Fundamentall Truth Which limitation I haue confuted already and joyntly your first Answer Your Second and Third are directly against the Doctor who Pag 151. teaches that the Promises which our Lord hath made vnto his Church for his assistance are intended to the Church Catholique and they are to be extended only to Points Fundamentall And then he alledges the saied text Joan 16.13 And Chap 41.61 adding that Though that Promise was direstly and primarily made to the Apostles yet it was made to them for the behoof of the Church and is verifyed in the Church vniversall Now if the Church cannot erre fundamentally she is taught by the holy Ghost not only sufficiently but effectually And if those Promises were made to the Apostles not only primarily as Potter affirmes but to them only as you say how could the Doctor proue by them the Infallibility of the Church for all Fundamentalls Can a Text of Scripture proue that to which it nothing belongs As well by this Text interpreted as you doe he might haue proved you or himself or any other infallible in Fundamentall Points So that now I must defend the Doctor against Mr. Chill who among all English Protestants was picked out as a fit champion to maintayne the cause of Protestants and defend Potters Booke You are greatly mistaken and offend against the knowen Rule which Logicians give for Division while you say one may be taught only sufficiently and not irresistibly as if these were adequately the membra dividentia of being taught whereas one may be taught effectually and neither sufficiently only nor yet irresistibly as hath bene declared more than once Do not yourself tell vs heere that the saied Promises were made to the Apostles only Who I hope you will say were taught effectually and not sufficiently only Otherwise we cannot be sure but that de facto they deviated from the direction of the Holy Ghost and so we can haue no certainty that their writings are infallible Or if the doctrine of freewill which you Socinians also defend can consist with the infallibility of the Apostles how can it be inconsistent with freewill in the Church You say The word in the Originall is hodegesei which signifyes to be a guide and director only not to compell or necessitate But what is this to any purpose against vs who teach nothing against Freewill by our Doctrine of the infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost And yet I must say that you vse fraude by writing so as if the word did signify a guide or director only with exclusion of being necessitated whereas the Greeke word is verified whether one be a guide or director resistibly or irresistibly For in both cases he is a guide and so Cornelius à Lapide interprets it ducet rectâ viâ ad virtutem quasi dux viae which one may doe either by leading and leaving one to his liberty to follow or by forcing him to followe his guidance and so the places which you alledg out of Scripture of men that had eyes to see and would not see are to no purpose except to ingage you to answer them in case of the Apostles whom I suppose you will not deny to haue bene secured from errour both sufficiently and effectually Yea you take much vnprofitable paines to proue that the saied Texts were by our Saviour meant only of the Apostles by reason of circumstances which appropriate them to his Disciples 80. But Dr. Potter hath told you that Though that promise directly and primarily was made to the Apostles yet it was made to them in behoof of the Church and is verified in the Church vniversall For we may consider in the Apostles a double capacity either as they are private and particular Persons or as they respect and represent or beare the place of the Church and for her good receiue some Power or priviledg and not meerely with relation to their owne persons And therefore although some words in the places which you alledge be referred to the Apostles only yet it does not follow that all must be restrained to them Otherwise you will destroy the whole Church of Christ and all Christianity Nothing is more necessary in Christian Religion than Preaching to all Nations and Baptizing which our Saviour injoyned Matth. 28. Mark 16. Luke 24. yet by your manner of arguing it may be proved that they concerned the Apostles only For it is saied Mark 16.14 Last he appeared to those Eleven as they sate at the table and he exprobrated their incrudelity and hardness of hart because they did not belieue them that had seene him risen againe And N. 15.16 he saied to them Going into the world preach the Ghospell to all Creatures He that believes and is baptized shall be saved Heere you see that although some circumstances be proper to the Apostles as sitting at table and incrudelity yet it does not follow that all must concerne them only as that preaching and baptizing belongs to the whole Church I imagine you will not deny In the same manner Matth. 28. N. 16.17.18.19.20 divers things are specified which belong to the Apostles only as going into Galilee adoring doubting and our Saviours speaking to them and yet his command Going teach ye all Nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the Holy Ghost belongs to the whole Church The like Argument may be taken out of S. Luke Cap. 24. N. 44.45.46.47.48.49 where some thing is personall to the Apostles and we must not say that pennance to be preached in his name and remission of sinnes vnto all Nations as is sayd N. 47. belonged to the Apostles only though it be expresly saied beginning from Hierusalem which seemes proper to the Persons of the Apostles and yet Preaching Pennance a thing common to the whole Church is set downe in the same verse with beginning from Hierusalem which was personall to the Apostles Thus Joan. 20. Some particulars are spoken and done to the Apostles only as N. 21. He saied to them againe Peace be to you and N. 22. He breathed vpon them and yet N. 23. he gives them Power to forgiue sinnes which Power did not cease with the Death of the Apostles These instances shew that you must answer your owne Objections and will force you to confess that it is no good way of arguing that all things in the Texts which Ch. Ma and Dr. Potter alledg out of S. John for the infallibility of the Church must be appropriated to the Apostles for the substance because some circumstances concerne them alone and that we must prudently distinguish betwene those two kinds of things as certainly not to be led into any errour against Faith is most necessary for the Church which God hath appointed for Teacher of all Christians and Judge of controversies And that the Apostles may be and are sometyme considered as publike persons and with relation to the Church
to bring one to open contradictions which you confess is very difficult and vnreasonable you should say impossible for a man in his right wits to belieue and so you forsake your two Dr. Vsher and Potter in this Assertion which you say N. 47. the one preached and printed the other reprinted Your second answer is that the latter part of Dr. Vshers words is but a repetition of the former But this answer destroyes the former which yet you do not deny to be good and agreeable to the meaning of the Doctor For if the Second part be a contradiction of the former as according to your first answer it is how can it be only a repetition therof And you tooke not a fitt example out of S. Athanasius his Creed to proue a meere repetition you I say who wickedly hold that Creed which indeed is a Catholique profession of the chiefest Articles of Christian Religion to be but an aggregate of Contradictions And yet that explication of S. Athanasius Neither confounding the Persons c was necessary against some Heresies that grāted a distinction of Persons only quoad nomina ād not in reality For your other vulgar examples to proue that those latter words may be only a repetition of the former you must remember that in matters of Faith all shew or shadow of contradictions or falshood must be carefully avoided as certainly it is a pernicious thing to giue occasion of believing that a damnable Heresie may stand with the belief of all necessary Articles of Faith and so a formall Heretique may be saved and nevertheless you do not deny but that Dr. Vshers words may suppose this Yet Charity Maintayned out of this poyson gathered this wholsome doctrine in the same N. 17. that if one believing all Fundamentall Articles in the Creed may superinduce damnable heresies it followes that the fundamentall truths contrary to those damnable heresies are not contained in the Creed And so the Creed cannot be saied to containe all Points necessary to be believed which is the maine Point in hand You wonder that Ch. Ma. did nor espie an other contradiction in D. Vshers words like to that which He noted but if that other be a contradiction you say it is of the same nature with that which was observed and so it had bene to multiply things without necessity But enough of this which Ch. Ma. N. 17. professed to note only by the way which yet did either trouble you very much for the difficulty of his argument or else you are willing to take anie occasion of making a vaine shew of your skill in Logick and Metaphysick but with how many contradictions and little credit to yourselfe I hope the Reader hath seene by the confutation of all your Reasons 35. In your number 48.49 you are highly offended with Ch. Ma. as if he had said N. 18. that Dr. Potter patches vp a Religion of men agreeing in some few or one Article of beliefe that Christ is our Saviour but for the rest hold conceipts plainly contradictory which you say is a shamelesse calumny not only because D. Potter in this point delivers not his owne judgment but relates the opinion of others M. Hocker and M. Morton but especially even these men as they are related by Dr. Potter to the constitution of the very essence of a Church in the lowest degree require not only Faith in Christ Iesus the Sonne of God and Saviour of the world but also submission to his Doctrine in minde and will Now I beseech you Syr tell me ingenuously whether the Doctrine of Christ may be called without blasphemy scarcely one point of Faith Is it not manifest to all the world that Christians of all Professions agree with one consent in the beliefe of all those Bookes of Scripture which were not doubted of in the ancient Church without danger of damnation And so the truths wherin they agree amount to many millions c. 36. Answer First Ch Ma in the said N. 18. doth not ground his Assertion vpon the Doctrine of Hooker and Morton but vpon the principles of Potter and Protestants who hold that men may be members of the same Church if they agree in fundamentall Articles though they should differ in never so many other points and you cannot deny this not only to be true but the very ground for which they hold themselves to be brethren and capable of salvation notwithstanding their differences in matters not fundamentall From whence it followes that although it were granted that Protestants agree in many Points not fundamentall yet this is meerely accidentall and nothing against the Assertion of Ch Ma because if once you suppose them to agree in all fundamentalls and disagree in all other Points they must still be members of one Church For in this mattet more or fewer cannot alter their case so they keepe with in the compass of non-fundamentalls as contrarily though they were supposed to agree in those many millions which you mention and in as many millions more as you may please to imagine of points not fundamentall yet if they differ but in one fundamentall they cannot be members of the same Church and so your millions of such points can availe nothing either to constitute men members of the same Church or to hinder them from being so and therfor if you agree in never so many such points it helps you no more then if you agreed in none at all according to the ground and Doctrine of Potter and Model of his Church and therfor the saying of Ch Ma is very true who speaks reservedly in this manner According to this Model of Dr. Potters foundation consisting in the agreement of scarcely one Point of Faith what a strange Church would he make of men concurring in some one or few Articles of beliefe who yet for the rest should be holding conceipts plainly contradictory so patching vp a Religion of men who agree only in the Article that Christ is our Saviour but for the rest are like to the parts of a Chimera having the head of a man the neck of a horse c. For there is greater repugnancy betwene assent and dissent then betwene integrall parts as head neck c. These words if you read them with attention doe not affirme what is de facto but only goe vpon a supposition that is what a Church he would make if men agreed only in fundamētall points and for the rest should hold conceipts plainly contradictorie and therfor he vseth the word Model which signifies not necessarily what is but what would be if Potter proceeded according to his owne grounds taking them for a Model of his building Thus Ch Ma doth not wrong Dr. Potter in imputing to him the opinions of others but you misalledge Ch Ma that you may accuse him of calumny created by yourselfe 37. Secondly I answer if Ch Ma had spoken not vpon meere supposition but by way of affirmation as he did not if he committed any
that Protestants are fâ—rre more bold to disagree even in matters of Faith than Catholique Divines in Questions meerely Philosophicall or not determined by the Church But Charity Maintayned had good reason For wheras Catholiques haue an infallible meanes to know what Points belong to Faith they are Religiously carefull and circumspect not to broach any thing which may in any remote way cross any least Article of Christian Religion as contrarily Protestants having no certaine Rule for interpreting Scripture must needs be subject to innumerable and endless diversityes of opinions which therfore they will esteeme to be no more than indifferent matters and so you say in your answer to the Direction N. 30. that the disputes of Protestants are touching such controverted Questions of Religion as may with probability be disputed on both sides And what is this except to dispute of probabilityes as men do in Philosophy For this cause I haue shewed heretofore that learned Protestants speaking of the points wherin they differ call them small matters Things indifferent Matters of no great moment No great matters Matters of nothing Matters not to be much respected No parte of Faith but curious nicities Which shewes that Protestants speak and proceede with greater liberty in matters concerning Faith than Catholiques doe in Philosophy call Questions which they would never handle if they esteemed them to be things so contemptible as Protestants declare the matters in which they differ to be Besides this Catholiques in Questions of Philosophy bejond the Direction of Faith to which all Philosophy ought to submitt haue also the light of Reason and evident Principles of demonstrations for their guide whereas the Mysteryes of Faith being sublime and obscure and Protestants having no infallible meanes not to erre in the interpretation of Scripture they are left to their owne freedom or rather fancy incomparably more than Catholiques are left to themselves in Philosophicall disputes wherin they are restrayned and kept within compass both by Divine Faith and Human Reason subjected to Faith It is true when they will defend their defection and Schisme from all Churches extant when Luther appeared they will seeme to make great account of all points though they be not Fundamentall but this very thing doth indeed giue them greater freedom to multiply opinyons and increase dissentions not only with vs but amongst themselves vpon pretence of piety and necessity to forsake all errours either of Catholiques or Protestants I know not to what purpose you say Is there not as great repugnancy betweene your assent and dissent your affirmation and negation your Est Est Non Non as there is betweene theyrs For this is not the Question but whether we doe or haue the freedom to dissent as much as Protestants doe and haue liberty to disagree both from vs and amongst themselves and I haue proved that we haue not and then I hope there is not as great repugnancy betwene our Est Est as betwene the Est and Non Est of Protestants The rest of this Number makes nothing against what I haue saied and therfore I Let it pass though there want not some points which you could not easily defend 42. To your N. 51.52 I answer Ch. Ma. saied truly that while Protestants stand only vpon Fundamentall Articles they do by their owne confession destroy the Church which is the House of God For the fundation alone of a house is not a house nor can they in such an imaginary Church any more expect salvation than the Fundation alone of a house is sitt to affoard a man habitation To this you say to Charity Maintayned I hope you will not be difficult in granting that that is a house which hath all the necessary parts belonging to a house Now by Fundamentall Articles we meane all those which are necessary Vnless you will say that more is necessary than that which is necessary 43. Answer It is impossible that yourself can be satisfied with this your answer seing you know Charity Maintayned disputes in that place expressly against Protestants who pretend to Brotherhood Vnity of Faith and Hope of salvation in vertue of their agreement in Fundamentall Articles though they differ in many other Points of Faith This state of the Question being supposed and evidently true 〈◊〉 you meane for you speak very confusedly in saying only By Fundamentall Artitles we meane all those which are necessary If I say you meane that Fundamentall and necessary points are the same and that all points sufficiently proposed as revealed by God are necessary to be believed and consequently Fundamentall you fight for Charity Maintayned and grant that Protestants disagreeing in points revealed differ in necessary and Fundamentall points and cannot be of the same Church nor hope for salvation For you must giue me leaue to say I hope you will not be difficult in granting that it is not a house or a Church which hath not all the necessary things belonging to a house or church If you say that no Points are necessary but such as are Fundamentall of their owne nature and are to be believed explicitely then also you grant that which Charity Maintayned affirmed that the Church or house of Protestants consists only in the foundation seing they may differ in other Points not fundamentall and yet remaine a Church But then how can this agree with your Doctrine that every errour against any revealed Truth is of itself damnable Can it be a house of God which opposes Gods Testimony and is not capable of salvation without repentance of its damnable errours Haue we not often cited Dr. Potter teaching Pag 212. that whatsoever is revealed in Scripture is in some sense Fundamentall that is such as may not be denied without infidelity And Pag 250. he saies plainly It is Fundamentall to a Christians Faith and necessary for his salvation that he belieue all revealed Truths of God wherof he may be convinced that they are from God Do not these words declare that though Protestants were supposed to belieue all Points fundamentall of their owne nature yet they are guilty of infidelity according to Dr. Potter and want something Fundamentall to a Christians Faith and necessary for salvation as long as they differ in any point sufficiently propounded as revealed by God Finally what will you resolue If errours in points not fundamentall may stand with the substance of the same Faith Church and hope of salvation in those who agree in Fundamentall Articles then you must yeald to Charity Maintayned saying that the Church of protestants is a House builded by the foundation only and yet you pretend to take in ill parte this saying of his If you affirme that for constituting the Church or house of God there is also required agreement in points not Fundamentall you overthrow the maine tenet of Protestants that they are Brethren and haue the same substance of Faith though they differ in such vn-fundamentall points and if you turne about to agree with them
answer with Ch. Ma. that the Apostles set downe those Points Fundamentall and not Fundamentall which the Holy Ghost inspired them to deliver as you say they were inspired to set downe Credenda and not Agenda though these be of no lesse importance and necessity then those and you still begg the Question N. 75. that the end which the Apostles proposed was to set downe all necessary points of Faith The reasons which you giue N. 76. why some mysteries were omitted and others set downe can only be congruences of that which is done de facto and not arguments convincing that they could not haue done otherwise thē they did ād if they had set downe others and not these there could not haue wanted reasons for their so doing That the three Sages who came to adore our Saviour were also Kings is no new invention of Ch. Ma. but the judgment of the Ancient as may be seene in Cornelius a Lapide in Matth. Chap. 2. citing by name the Saints Ciprian Basil Chrisostom Hierom Hilary and Tertullian Isidore Beda Idacius The words which you cited out of Gordonius Huntlaeus Contr 2. Cap. 10. N. 10. that the Apostles were not so forgetfull after the receiving of the holy Ghost as to leaue out any prime ād Principall Foundation of Faith make nothing for your purpos seing we dispute not whether any prime or principall foundation of Faith be left out for we acknowledge that the Creed expresses the Creator of all things and Redeemer of mankinde as also the Blessed Trinity Resurrection Catholique Church Remission of sinnes and life everlasting which of themselves are prime and principall foundations of our Faith if they be vnderstood according to the interpretation and tradition of the Church but whether any necessary though not prime and principall be left out and that may well be necessary which is not prime and principall as many parts are necessary to make a house which are not the prime and principall parts therof Yet indeed Gordonius in that 10. Chapter assignes the properties of the foundation of Faith that is of that Authority vpon which our Faith relies which he proves Chap. 11. not to be Scripture alone and C. 12. not to be the private spirit but Chap 13. to be the Church and he saieth the Apostles could not leaue out of their Creed in quo continentur omnia prima fundamenta Fidei this primum praencipuum Fidei fundamentum Where you see he speakes of the First foundations of Faith and more things may be necessary than the First foundations Besides we deny not but all necessary points are contained in the Creed in some of those senses which I haue declared hertofore which being well cōsidered particularly that Article of the Catholick Church will demonstrate that the Creed togeather with those means which are affoarded vs by tradition c for the true vnderstanding therof and vndoubted supplying of what is not contained in it is of no lesse vse and profit then if all points had been exprest which indeed had been to little purpos yea would haue proved noxious by the malice of men without the declaration of the Church for the Orthodox sense and meaning of them 62. You doe not well in saying that Charity Maintayned denyes this consequence of Dr. Potter That as well nay better they might haue given no Article but that of the Church and sent vs to the Church for all the rest For in setting downe others besides that and not all they make vs belieue we haue all when we haue not all and neither gives reason against it nor satisfies his reason for it For Charity Maintayned performes both those things neither of which you say he performes as every one may see who reads his N. 29. to say nothing that in good Logick the defendent is not obliged to giue a reason why he denyes a consequence it being reason sufficiēt that the opponent or disputant proves it not though yet indeed Charity Maintayned doth shew the insufficiency of the Doctors inference by giving the like consequences which confessedly cannot be good and yourselfe endeavour to answer the reasons of Charity Maintayned which he brought against the sayd inference of Potter You say If our doctrine were true this short Creed I belieue the Roman Church to be infallible would haue been better that is more effectuall to keepe the believers of it from heresie and in the true Faith then this Creed which now we haue a proposition so evident that I cannot see how either you or any of your religion or indeed any sensible man can from his hart deny it Yet because you make shew of doing so or else which I rather hope doe not rightly aprehende the force of the Reason I will endeavour briefly to add some light and strength to it by comparing the effects of those sever all supposed Creeds 63. Answer perhaps I shall say in the beginning that which will make your endeavour proue vaine You say If our doctrine were true this short Creed I belieue the Roman Church to be infallible would haue been botter that is more effectuall to keepe the believes of it from heresie and in the true Faith then this Creed which now we haue But this ground of yours is evidently false For the effect or Fruit or Goodnesse or Betternesse so to speake of the Creed is not sufficiently explicated by being more effectuall to keepe men from heresy and in the true Faith but it implies also som particular articles which are to be believed in the beliefe of which that we may not erre the infallibility of the Church directs ād secures vs which office she might and would haue performed although this Article I belieue the Catholick Church directs ād secures vs had not beene exprest in the Creed yea that article ād the whole Creed supposes the infallibility of the Church to haue been proved ād believed antecedēter to thē that so we may be assured all the contēts therof to be infallibly true Now by the precise beliefe of that Creed which you propose taken alone we could not belieue any particular article of Faith because this precise act I belieue the Church to be infallible terminates in that one object of the infallibility of the Church from which I grant the beliefe of other particular objects may be derived when the Church shall propose thē but thē ipso facto we should begin to beleeue other particular objects and so haue an other Creed and not that little one of which you speake and besides which we are obliged to belieue other particular revealed Truths and therfor we must still haue some other Creed or Catechisme or what you would haue it called besides that one article of the Catholick Church as Charity Maintayned observes Pag 144. and consequently though that article of the Church haue that great and necessary effect of keeping vs from heresy and in the true Faith yet it wants that other property of a Creed
vertue rather to endure all torments and death itselfe then consent to it Who can deny but that in common speach to say we ought rather to dy then doe such a thing signifies the absolute vnlawfulnes therof Which in our case appeares more by his comparing the dividing of the Church to the offering sacrifice to Idolls Those Martyrs saith he being no lesse glorious that expose themselves to hinder the dismembring of the Church then those that suffer rather then they will offer Sacrifice to Idolls In your N. 13. you vainly distinguish betweene the deficiency of the visible Church and of the Churches visibility seing visibility is essentiall to the Church and I hope you will grant that nothing can exist without that which is essentiall to it 4. Your N. 15.16.17.18.19 make no lesse against S Austin D. Potter and the most learned Protestants then against Ch Ma. All your objections are answered by considering that we doe not affirme the Church to be at all tymes a like conspicuous glorious and as I may say prosperous but only That she shall be alwayes so knowne that men desirous of their salvation may be able to distinguish her from all other congregations and haue recourse to her for matters belonging to Religion seing in the ordinary course for we speake not of extraordiry cases or Miracles we must learne of her Fides ex auditu And your selfe Pag. 149. N. 38. say I must learne of the Church or some part of the Church or I cannot know that there was such a man as Christ that he taught such Doctrine that he and his Apostles did such miracles in confirmation of it that the Scripture is Gods word vnles I be taught it So then the Church is though not a certain Foundation and proofe of my Faith yet a necessary introduction to it How then doe you N. 17. aske this Question If some one Christian lived alone among Pagans in some country remote from Christendom shall we conceaue it impossible for this man to be saved because he cannot haue recourse to any cong regation for the affaires of his soule Seing yourselfe tell vs that you must learne of the Church or some part of it or you cannot know that there was such a man as Christ and consequently you suppose a Christian living among Pagans to haue learned of the Church the Christian Religion wherein being once instructed he may afterward be saved by an act of contrition when he cannot actually receaue any Sacramēt and so he is not saved without dependance on the Church of which he first learned the Doctrine of Christ Neither doe I say that every part of the vniversall Church must alwayes be visible to the whole but that every part must be visible to some and so the whole collection of Churches will come to be visible in all places and knowne to the whole world Yea every particular Church is of it selfe visible to the whole that is from all parts of the Church it may receaue writings letters messages and messengers though it be not needfull that actually it doe so ād so be actually visible to the whole as I sayd That the true Church cannot be without the preaching of the word and right administration of Sacraments is the common Doctrine of Protestants who say they are essentiall notes of the Church as hath been declared hertofore And though it were granted that per accidens these things could not be actually performed in some particular case which yet indeed cannot happen because even the profession of Faith is a reall preaching that makes nothing to proue that the vniversall true Church can be invisible which in the greatest persecutions was visible both to friends and foes and became more conspicuous even by persecution it selfe Glorious S. Austin brings so many and so cleare texts of Scripture for the Amplitude and Perpetuity of the Church against the Donatists that you may blush to speake so contemptibly of his Doctrine in this behalfe as you doe N. 16. or to say as you doe N. 20. that it appeares not by his words that he denyed not only the actuall perishing of the Church but the possibility of it seing he vrges the promises of God and predictions of the Prophets for the stability and perpetuity of Gods Church 5. You say N. 20. All that S. Austine saies is not true and that you belieue heate of disputation against the Donatists transported him so farr as to vrge against them more than was necessary and perhaps more than was true As concerning the last speach of S. Austine I cannot but wonder very much why he should think it absurd for any man to say There are sheepe which he knowes not but God knowes and no less at you for obtruding this sentence vpon vs as pertinent proofe of the Churches visibility Answer The words cited by Ch. Ma. out of S. Augustine De ovibus Cap. 1. are these Peradventure some one may saie there are other sheepe I know not where with which I am not acquainted yet God hath care of them But he is too absurd in humane sense that can imagine such things Which words of S. Austine are evidently true For is he not too absurd in humane sense that can imagine one to be a member of the Church to which visibility is essentiall and yet not be visible to men but knowen to God alone 6. Ch. Ma. Pag 165. N. 11. sayth These men doe not consider that while they deny the perpetuity of a visible Church they destroy their owne present Church according to the Argument which S. Austin Lib. 3. de Baptismo cont Donat. cap. 2. vrged against the Donatists in these words If the Church were lost in Cyprians we may say Gregories time from whence did Donatus Luther appeare From what earth did he spring From what sea is he come From what heaven did he drop And in another place How can they vaunt to haue any Church if she haue ceased ever since those times Lib. 3. cont Parm. 7. To this authority of S. Austin you answer N. 21. Neither doe I see how the trath of any present Church depends vpon the perpetuall visioility nay nor vpon the perpetuity of that which is past or future For what sense is there that it should not be in the power of God Almighty to restore to a flourishing estate a Church which oppression hath made in visible To repaire that which is ruined to reforme that which was corrupted or to reviue that which was dead Nay what reason is there but that by ordiuary meanes this may be done so long as the Scriptures by Divine providence are preserved in their integrity and Authority as the commonwealth though never so farr collapsed and overrunne with disorders is yet in possibility of being reduced vnto its Originall state so long as the Ancient Laws and Fundamentall Constitutions are extant and remaine inviolate from whence men may be directed how to make such a reformation 8. Answer The
with in and without If she be with Novatianus she was not with Cornelius But if she were with Cornelius who succeedes Fabianus by Lawfull ordination Novatianus is not in the Church If then the milder Protestants will pretend to be in the true Church they cannot be with those other who by teaching an heresy against the Article of the Church in our Creed put themselves out of the Church otherwise those milder Protestants should come to be both within and without the Church You tell vs that the saying of S. Cypriā hath no more to doe with our present businesse of proving it vnlawfull to communicate with these men who hold the Church was not alwayes visible then In nova fert animus But I am sure In nova fert animus agrees as fitly to your frequent changes of Religion as it is impertinently applyed against Ch Ma. Your last words That S. Cyprians words are by neither of the parts litigants esteemed any rule of Faith and therfor the vrging of them and such like authorityes serves only to make bookes great and Controversies endles shew what esteeme you haue of Antiquity and the holy Fathers how diffident you are of your cause if their authority might prevaile and how vnjustly you proceed in alledging against vs the authority of Fathers of whom you make so small and so ill account as to say the vrging of them serves only to make bookes great and which is worse controversies endles 13. For answer to your N. 45. I must still entreate the Reader to peruse N. 17. of Ch. Ma. and withall to remember what I haue proved heretofore that it is impossible to leaue the externall communion of the Church and not to leaue the Church externall communion being of the essence of the Church And therfor your example that a man may leaue any fashion or custome of a Colledge and yet still remaine a member of the College is not to the purpose seing a fashion or custome of the Colledge may be meerely accidentall to the constituting one a member therof or if you suppose any custome to be of the essence and a Signum distinctivum of that Colledge from all other communities then the example makes against you for in that case to leaue that fashion or custome were to leaue the Colledge 14. Vpon this errour that externall communion in profession of Faith Liturgie Sacraments c is not essentiall to the Church is grounded all that you haue N. 47. Neither is C. Ma. deceaved in not distinguishing betweene a local ād morall forsaking any thing But he sayth and hath proved that externall communion being essentiall to the Church it is impossible that they can be of one Church who are divided in that communion but doe forsake one another morally and locally also refusing to be present at their publik worship of God nor doth he C. Ma. vse any pretty Sophisme and very fit to perswade men that it is impossible for them to forsake any errour they hold or any vice they are subject to Because forsooth they cannot forfake themselves and vices and errours are things inherent in themselves For to turne your owne Instance against your selfe if vices and errours were essentiall to a man it were impossible to forsake them and not forsake ones selfe so vnion in externall communion being essentiall to the true Church which is one it is impossible to forsake her externall communion and not forsake her as it is impossible to forsake the company of Dr. Potter and keepe company with the Provost of Queens colledge which is the example of Ch. Ma. otherwise he should be with and not be with himselfe according to the forsayd words of S. Ciprian the Church being one cannot be within and without It is not therfor Charity Maintayned who distinguishes not between a locall and morall forsaking any thing but it is you who doe not distinguish between a reall physicall and a morall forsaking of a mans selfe as if one could not cease to be a member of the Church by heresy or Schisme because he cannot cease to be physically himselfe Thus your N. 48. is answered and as you are pleased to repeate here againe In nova fert animus so I not to be too bold with the Reader by a vaine repeating of the selfe same words may well add as fitly agreeing to you the witty saying of Tertullian adver valent Cap 12. Ovidivs metamorphoseis suas delevisset si hodie majorem cognovisset Certaine it is that your changes of religion ought in reason to be esteemed more strange and I am sure more vnreasonable then all the metamorphosies in Ovid. 15. Your N. 49.50.51.52.53.54.55.56 giue no occasion of matter to be particularly confuted Only to say to your N. 50. that it is certainly true that no two men or Churches divided in externall communion can be both true parts of the Catholik Church if indeed their division be culpable and Schismaticall For in that case the innocent part only remaines a true member of the Catholick Church because if both remained vnited to the Catholike Church they should also be vnited among themselves Quae sunt vnita vni tertio sunt vnita interse And Potter Pag 76. saith Whosoever professeth himselfe to forsake the communion of any one member of the Body of Christ must confesse himselfe consequētly to forsake the whole How then doe you say it is certainly false that no two men or Churches divided in externall communion can be both true parts of the Catholick Church Seing to be divided Schismatically from any one member of the Church induces necessarily a division from the whole as the Doctour confesses As for your N. 55. wherin you say to Charity Maintayned the reason of this consequence which you say is so cleare truly I cannot possibly discerne But the consequence which Ch. Ma. makes N. 17. Pag 172. of which you speake seemes so cleare that I belieue every Body will see it if his words be set downe as they are delivered by him and not abbreviated and obscured by you Thus he sayth I obserue that according to Dr. Potter the selfe same Church which is the vniversall Church remaining the vniversall true Church of Christ may fall into errours and corruptions from whence it clearly followes that it is impossible to leaue the externall communion of the Church so corrupted and retaine externall communion with the Catholick Church since the Church Catholick and the Church so corrupted is the selfe same one Church What consequence can ther be more clear The Church Catholick and the Church corrupted is the same Church therfor it is impossible to forsake the externall communion of the Church corrupted and not forsake but retaine externall communion with the Church Catholick 16. To your N. 56 I will only say That you conceale the words of Ch. Ma. so to impugne them more freely His words are When Luther appeared ther were not two distinct visible true Catholick Churches holding contrary Doctrine and
schisme is a division fro that church with which one agrees in matters of faith they doe not distinguish betweene points fundamētall ād not fūdamēntall in order to the negatiue precept of not disbelieving any point sufficiētly proposed as revealed by God ād so in fact all points being fūdamētall in this sense as both you and Potter are forced to confesse more then once though in other occasions you contradict it as even in this place you make such a distinction and vpon it ground your objection whosoever agree truly in all Fundamentall points in this sense agree in all points of truths revealed by God and sufficiently proposed for such If Protestants will faine to themselves another kinde of points not fundamentall in order to the Negatiue precept of Faith Charity Maintayned is not obliged to side with them but may and ought to say that if Protestants pretend to agree with vs in fundamentall Points they must a parte rei agree with vs in all Points sufficiently proposed as divine Truths and that agreement supposed while they depart from our Communion they becocome most formall Schismatiks as Schisme is distinguished from heresy Thus your Sillogisme which you pretend to resemble the argument of Ch Ma is answered For when you say He that obeyes God in all things is innocent Titus obeys God in somethings Therefore he is innocent Your Minor should be Titus obeys God in all things as they who agree in fundamentall points of Faith must agree in all things that is they must not disagree in any revealed truth for to agree in that sense is fundamentall to the Faith of a Christian as Potter confesses By this also your N. 79. is answered Neither doe your N. 80. and 81. containe any difficulty which is not answered by a meere denyall I wish the Reader for his owne good to reade what you omitt in the N. 29. of C Ma where he shewes that Luther was farr enough from intending any reformation with some other points which you omitt or involue in darkness and which being read in him answer all your Objections 23. Your N. 82. gives as great a deadly blow to Protestant Religion as no adversary could haue givē a greater C Ma sayd that Luther ād his Associates did wholy disagree in the particulars of their reformatiō which was a signe that the thing vpon which theyr thoughts first pitched was not any particular Modell or Idea of Relig ō but a settled resolution to forsake the Church of Rome This you not only grant but proue that it could not be otherwise saying to Ch Ma. Certainly it is no great marveile that ther was as you say disagreement between them in the particulars of their Reformation Nay morally speaking it was impossible it should be otherwise And why You giue the reason in these remarkable words the Declination from which originall purity of religiō some conceaving to haue begunne though secretly in the Apostles times the mystery of iniquity being then in worke and after their departure to haue shewed itselfe more openly others againe believing that the Church continued pure for some ages after the Apostles and then declined And consequently some ayming at an exact conformity with the Apostolique times others thinking they should doe God and men good service could they reduce the Church to the condition of the fourth and fift ages some taking their direction in this worke of Reformation only from Scripture others from the writings of Fathers and the decrees of Councells of the first fiue Ages certainly it is no great mervaile that ther was as you say disagreement between them in the particulars of their Reformation nay morally speaking it was impossible it should be otherwise Yet let me tell you the difference between them especially in comparison of your Church and Religion is not the difference between good and bad but between good and better And they did best that followed Scripture interpreted by Catholick written Tradition which Rule the reformers of the Church of England proposed to themselves to follow I know not whether the vncertainty or misery of Protestant religion could haue been described in more lively colours then you haue set it out For if they be vncertaine from whence to beginne their Reformation and for that cause you confesse it was impossible for them not to disagree in the particulars therof it followes that now they haue no certainty what Reformation is true or whether a Reformation ād not rather a Deformation or falshood And indeed the different heades even as you propose them are so confused that it is not easy to vnderstand what they meane and then how hard must it be to take them for a distinct rule how to proceed in the Reformation of the whole world If the principles be doubtfull the conclusion can not be certain You make your Progenitours to resemble perfectly the Genethliaci and judicarij Astrologers who not agreeing in their Principles proue vaine and ridiculous in their predictions You are like to a certaine man who not long a goe in a citty which I could name apprehending himselfe in his climactericall yeare could not be induced to eate as despayring to passe that Criticall time till he was told by a witty Physition that he must count his age from the time of his conception not of his nativity as he had done according to which rate finding as he thought his fatall yeare to be past was presently cured Truly whosoever advisedly and seriously considers this Number of yours can not but forsake Protestantisme if he meane not to forsake his owne soule You endeavoured to perswademen that by the ordinary meanes which are left vs a Church collapsed may be restored to purity which certainly you make impossible to be done by the Doctrine you deliver here Seing confessedly ther is no certainty vpon what Grounds or by what settled directions such a Reformation should proceed nor from whence it should beginne It is also strange to heare you say They did best that followed Scripture interpreted by Catholick written Tradition Which Rule the Reformers of the Church of England proposed to themselves to follow What doe you now tell vs that there be traditiue interpretations of Scripture A thing disclaymed by you through your whole booke denying all other Traditions except that wherby we accept Scripture as the word of God but not the interpretation of it it being as you saie evident of itselfe and ther being no infallible Judge to declare it or any points of Faith which are not contained in it Moreover by what commission or coherence to yourself say you Pag 375. N. 56. That the Bible I say the Bible only is the Religion of Protestants Seing you tell vs here that some of them tooke their direction in this work of Reformation only from Scripture others from the Writings of the Fathers and the Decrees of the Councells for the first fiue Ages and that they did best that followed Scripture interpreted by Catholick written
private persons and as representing the Church musâ— be differently vnderstood c. 12. n. 80. p. 767. and seq Their authority must be believed before we can belieue what they spake or wrote c. 3. n. 22. p. 294. n. 31. p. 300. passim Apostles for the essentiall are and alwayes must be in the Church c. 12. n. 99. p. 782. All the Apostles commanded to preach none to write c. 2. n. 25. p. 131. The Apostles being the salt of the earth atheistically explicated by I hil c. 12. n. 91. p. 777. Apprehension taken for the first operation of the vnderstanding agrees not to Faith which is an assent or judgment taken in generall as knowledge often is it agrees to Faith as knowledge doth c. 15. n. 4. p. 886 887. How argumeÌ„ts of credibility may be elevated to produce certainty and in what sense they are the word aÌ„d voyce of God c. 1. n. 79.80 p. 95.96 Attrition without absolution insufficient for salvation VVhat conditions it must haue to obtaine absolution c. 8. n. 3. p. 597. seq S. Austin rejected and alleadged by I hil for the selfe same poynt and shewed to be adversary to I hil c. 2. n. 193. p. 265. and seq His advise for the vnderstanding of Scripture n. 201. p. 269. his sense of Tradition and of the practice of the Church n. 209. p. 274. c. 11. n. 26. p. 667. and seq VVhy he is an eyesoare to the Socinians c. 7. n. 123. p. 544. He is defended against I hil his forgery c. 12. n. 57. p. 749. and seq c. 2. n. 207. p. 273. alibi saepius B. Baptisme acknowledged by Protestants neâ—essary and as required by Scripture and Antiquity c. 4. n. 60. p. 389. and seq It is to be given to children by the authority and practice of the Church ibidem p. 389. and seq The difference and absurdityes amongst Protestants concerning Baptisme c. 2. n. 39. p. 146. seq It is validly administred by Iewe or Gentill if they intend to doe what Christians doe c. 4. n. 42. p. 377. 378. Baptisme in tho Doctrine of divers Protestants pardons all sinnes past present and to come c. 2. n. 85. p. 187. Beatificall vision if Faith be naturall and only probable is also naturall and may be a meere fiction c. 1. n. 113. p. 118. 119. To belieue only that Iesus is the sonne of God is acknowledged even by heretiques insufficient for salvation c. 2. n. 169. p. 245. 246. VVho believes not one poynt sufficiently propounded can haue no supernaturall Faith about any other c. 11. n. 13. p. 658. c. 15. n. 43. p. 922. and seq This proved by Heretiques and Catholiques ibidem Not to belieue any revealed truth sufficiently propounded is a mortall sinne n. 49. p. 927. I believe not the speaker wheÌ„ I only asseÌ„t for the reason he gives or for some other authority cited by him c. 12. n. 49. p. 744. alibi Bellarmine viudicated from I hil his cavills c. 2. n. 98. p. 201. and seq VVhat Byshop or Episcopus signifyes cannot evidently be knowne by Scripture alone c. 2. n. 11. p. 126. That Byshops in the Church are not juris divini is an heresy c. 5. n. 4. p. 429. seq Doctor Andreweâ— his contradictioÌ„ in this poynt ibidem Bishops haue no succession in England ibidem Bookes published to forwarne I hil to cleare himselfe of his vnchristiaÌ„ doctrines which he would never be induced to doe pr. n. 4. p. 2. C Caiphas in Chillingworthes doctrine spoke truth when he wickedly sayd that our Saviour blasphemed c. 11. n. 38. p. 675. Canon of Scripture cleered from Chill his malicious imputation c. 11. n. 22. it should be 21. p. 663. seq The Canonicalness of the bookes of Scripture is to be taken from the declaration of the Church c. 11. n. 6. 7 p. 653. falsly put 953 passim alibi every Canonicall writer wrote all that was necessary for the end inspired him by the holy Ghost not all that was necessary for salvation or for the Church to belieue c. 2. n. 136 p. 223 seq ac alibi Causabons miserable end c. 6 n. 9 p. 444 Catholiques by the confession of Protestants may be saved c. 2 n. 83 p. 185 c. 7 n. 145 p. 563 seq ac alibi No visible Church but the Catholique Romane out of which Luther departed c. 7 n. â—1 p. 522 Reasons why the Catholique Church is not to be forsaken n. 124 p. 545. 546 If she could erre her errours were rather to be professed then her Communion forsaken n. 132 p. 551 deinceps Catholiques judge charitably that Protestancy vnrepented destroyes salvation aÌ„d PiotestaÌ„ts if they hold their Religion true should judge the like of Catholiques c. 9 n. 2 p 624 Catholiques guided by the infallibility of the Church cannot be prejudiced by translations of Scripture nor feare corruptions c. 11 n. 16 p. 659 The Catholique Church an easy way to find Christs doctrine c. 3 n. 89 p. 348 She is infallible or all Christianity a fiction c. 4 n. 1 p. 352 Not Catholiques but LutheraÌ„s exposed to idolatry c. 4 n. 65 p. 393. Catholiques freed by Protestants from that imputation Ib. p 395 Catholiques prooue their Faith without a circle Toto c. 5 but Sectaryes cannot Ibid And particularly n. 14 15 p. 437 438 Also c. 2 n. 55 p. 158 Catholiques falsly charged by Chill that they hold Faith to haue no degrees of perfection c. 1 n. 43 44 p. 68 69 Catholique writers falsly cited by Potter as holding that Catholiques and Protestants doe not differ in the essence of Religion c. 7 n. 148 p. 567 Catholiques though falsly suposed to err their errour must be invincible c. 7 n. 158 p. 578 seq Causes by divine power may be elevated to produce effects nobler then themselves as also by concauses c. 1 n. 79 p. 94 Certainty in the vnderâ—â—anding forces not the will c. 1 n. 62 p. 80 seq Ceremonies vide Rites Charity Maintayned alledged and impugned by I hil either with falsification or ommitting his arguments or with some other fraud is often shewed through this whole Booke His Booke is not answeared by I hil but new heresies broached and old fetched from Hell to overthrow all Christianity Pr n. 3 p. 1. 2 Charity highly broaken by Protestants in judginge Catholiques vncharitable c. 9 n. 7 p. 628 It is ordered either according to the Phisic all perfection of the things loved or the morall obligation of loving imposed by God c. 16 n. 6 p. 935 936 Chillingworths Tenets and consequences He holds that Faith is only a probable rationall assent I. n. 16 p. 11 seq and c. 10 n. 13 p. 640 641 That to hold Christian faith infallible is presumptuous vncharitable erroneous doctrine of dangerous and pernicious consequence c. 1 n. 1 p. 37 And that it excludes all progress in charity n. 71 p. 86 That Faith may stand with Heresie I. n. 51 p. 35 He rejects grace
with Pelagius and free-will with Calvin c. 1 n. 65 p. 82 seq Many hideous Tenets of his concerninge Faith discovered in all the first Chap He holds that Charity may stand with deadly sinne I. n. â—1 p. 35 c 15 n. 45 p. 925 That the contents of Scripture are not more certaine then humane Histories I. n. 18 p. 13 14 That we are not bound to belieue Scripture to be of Divine authority c. 2 n. 58 p. 159 alibi And it is evident in his grounds that God is no more to be believed then man if God give no better reason for what he sayes then man doth c. 1 n. 101 p. 108 That it is no matter if controversies concerning truths only profitable be continued and increased c. 2 n. 78 p. 182 That Scripture is no materiall object of Taith and that there is no obligation to beleeue it c. 3 n. 4 p. 281 and in other numb before and after Also c. 13 n. 39 p 818 That the Apostles after the cominge of the Holy Ghost erred in a point clearly revealed c. 7 n. 24 p. 472. 473 c. 3 n. 28 p. 298 He brings all Christian Faith to a humane invention c. 3 n. 83 p. 344 seq He puts such a contrition for salvation which a sinner cannot possbly haue at the hower of death c. 4 n. 50 p. 384 That all Scripture is not divinely inspired c. 12 n. 38 p. 735 That our Saviours promise that the Holy Ghost should remaine with the Apostles was not for their successoâ—s but only for the terme of their lives nor that but conditionally c. 12 n. 83 p. 771 He revives VViclifs Heresie n. 85 p. 774. That contradictoryes may both be true with many horrid impietyes which strike at the roote of Christian Religion c. 13 n. 20 p. 802 seq His insolent treatie of S. Tho of Aqui c. 15 n. 45 46 47 p. 925 926 His little considence in his owne Religion c. 16 n. 11 p. 939 His absurdity in contending that it is all one to say Though such a thing be so and though it were so n. 21 p. 945 946 His impudent callinge God to witnesse of his sincerity in writing his Booke to confirme the infallible Religion of our Saviour which he strives in his whole Booke to prooue fallible c. 16 n. 23 p. 948 Many other of his pernitious Tenets appeare in this whole Booke and his errours against Scripture toto c. 3. His contradictions are so frequently shewed that no particular place needs be cited The like is of his continuall begging the question or asking impertinently in place of proofe why may not such athing be with out any proofe Church To follow the Church is to follow Scripture which recommends the Church vnto vs c. 2 n. 201 p. 270 To her recourse must be had not to be deceaved in interpreting Scripture Ibid Her vniversall practice is to be held an Apostolicall Tradition Ibid Many things are to be done for her authority without expresse Scripture n. 209 p. 274 She ceases not to be a Church for sinnes of Manners but of Faith c. 7 n. 85 p. 517 seq Vnity necessary to be members of one Church must be in all points sufficieÌ„tly proposed sundamentall or not fundamentall n. 74 p. 505 seq And in externall Communion Ibid which in divine service is vnlawfull with those of a different Faith n. 82 p. 511 It is all one to leaue the Church and to Ieaue her externall Communion nor can any separate from her and remaine a part of her n. 73 p. 503 sequen He not only separates from the Church who separates from her externall Communion but alsomorally from himselfe n. 110 p. 532 seq No Church no Schisme n. 93.94 p. 523 If the Church be infallible in fundamentalls she must also be so in vnfundamentalls n. 126 p. 547 548 He can be no member of the Church who disbeleeves any poynt sufficiently proposed as revealed by God c. 10 n. 5 p. 635 Nor can the Church remaine a Church with any such errour n. 6 p. 635 seq She beinge infallible it is damnable to oppose her n. 9 p. 637 638 She determines controversies as emergent occasions require and is for them eudued with infallibility n. 11 p. 639 640 Her fallibility for one age discredits her for all c. 11 n. 26 p. 667 The true Church easy to be found by her notes in every age n. 31 p. 670 seq Many disparityes between the Church and the Synagogue n. 38 p. 674 The Church having approved Scripture for Canonicall proves out of it particular truths concerning her selfe n. 67 p. 697 In what sense she is an infallible keeper of Scripture c. 3 n. 52 p. 320 seq She never questioned or rejected any thing of Scripture which the had once defined for Canonicall n. 54 p. 322 The true Church wanted not evident notes and proofes before Scripture was c. 4 n. 24 p. 365 toto c. 5 She is viâ ordinariâ the meanes for matter of Religion c. 4 n. 67 p. 396 seq The Church was before Scripture Ibid passim alibi She was never devested of infallibility c. 4 n. 72 p. 399 sequen She cannot perish nor be invisible nor deceaved in points belonging to Salvation She is the ordinary meanes to teach and therefore to be sought n. 79. p. 403 sequen Infallibility granted her for all points belonging to Religion but nor for curiosityes n. 95 p. 418 sequen She vsed disputations and discourse for her definitions n. 99 p. 424 42â— She essentially requires vnity in Faith and in in the externall worship of God Divivision from her in Faith is heresie in externall communion is Schisme c. 7 n. 2. 3 p. 458 459 460 If she be not infallible but falls into errour all must shun her communion n. 22 p. 471 472 She is indued by Christ with all requisits for the whole mysticall body for every degree for every particular person c. 2 n. 2 p. 122 seq She is recommended by him for the interpretation of Scripture and who refuses it resists him n. 28 p. 124 She must haue infallible meanes to declare with certainty things though only profitable n. 73 p. 176 seq It would be damnable in her to neglect truths only profitable n. 77 p. 181 If she should out of negligence mistake or be ignorant her errour would be damnable c. 14 n. 17 p. 724 seq She is extensiuè of equall infallibility with the Apostles but not intensiuè i.e. in the manner num 35 p. 731 seq If her authority be câ—â—taine for Scripture it must be the like for whatsoevet she proposes n. 52 p. 746 She being once prooved to be infallible may giue irrefragable testimony of her owne infallibility n. 107 p. 787 How the Church is alwayes visible c. 14 n. 4 p. 848. 849 VVhat right and power she had and for many ages had bene peaceable possessed of at Luthers cominge n.
c. 15 n. 24 p. 903 Luthers Tenet that to hold an obligation of keeping the commandements is to deny Christ and abolim Faith J. n. 25 p. 19 That lawes and good workes are more to be shunned then sinnes Jbid His desperate remorse for leaving the church c. 7. n. 14. p. 468. and c. 14. n. 50. p. 882. His division from the whose church proved out of Protestants c. 7. n. 116. p. 537. His shamless falsification of Rom 3.28 and I hill conscienceless endeavour to make it good c. 11. n. 16. p. 6â—9 M Maximinianus Patriarche of Constantinople his testimony for the Principality of the Romane Church c. 15. n. 33. p. 914. 915. Merit by good workes excludes not grace c. 15. n 17. p. 800. Milenaryes Doctrine never decreed nor delivered by the church c. 9. n. 5. p. 626. and c. 15. n 31. p. 911. c. I hill imposture vpon S. Justine Martyr concerning it confuted by testimonyes of Protestants Ibi. Miracles perpetually wrought by the church doe not only confirme some particular point but all her Doctrine and to say the contrary is injurious â—s God and makes the Doctrine of the Apostles and of all the church vnfitt to convert people c. 5. n. 7. p. 433. 434. Shewed by Scripture to be proofes of true Faith n. 9. p. 435. To deny theÌ„ is to oppose our Saviour and his Apostles and to vndermine all Christianity n. 8. p. 434. VVrought before Protestants were dreamt of in confirmation of particular points in which they disagree from Catholiques Ibid Yet they are not necessary for every point of christian doctrine c. 3. n. 33. p. 301. Acknowledged by Luther to haue been in the church through all ages for these 1500. yeares c 5. n. 4. p. 429. By them haue been converted Jewes and Gentles yet cannot move Protestants c. 3. n. 76. p. 338. Chill holds that true Miracles may be wrought to delude men n 76. p. 337 and c. 2 n. 186 p. 261. N Nature to conserue itselfe embraceth by instinct great naturall difficultyes as less evills then its owne destruction c. 1 n. 114. p. 119. To affirme that it is as easy to obey the Ghospell as to performe what the common instinct of nature commands is iniurious to our Saviours merits Ibid. As natuâ—â—â— instinct for its naturall conservatioÌ„ is cerâ—â—â—â—â— aÌ„d invariable so must the light of Faith be for supernaturall conservation Ibid. Divers vnderstandings of things Necessary to salvation c. 2. n. 1. p. 122. seq Notes of credibility authorize the writers before their writings c. 5. n. 1. p. 426. seq and n. 5. p. 431. 432. They authorize the church independently of Scripture and fall primarily vpon her not vpon Scripture Jbid. VVhat church they authorize is to be infallibly beleeved in all points n. 6. p. 433. God of his goodness could not permitt them be found as they are in the catholique Romane church if her Faith could be false n. 7. p. 433. and n. 10. 11. 12. p. 436. 437. These notes cannot be pretended by Protestantâ— and other Sectaryes n. 4. p. 429. 430. O Objects are not obsure evident certainâ— probable c. in theÌ„selves but only so denominated extrinsecally by the acts to which those affections are proper c. 15. n. 6. p. 888. 889. Observations to aÌ„swear many of Chil. objections about the creed c. 13. n. 8 p. 793. 794. Aprobable Opinion may be safely followed in things necessary for salvation only necessitate Praecepti but not in such as are necessitane Medij c. 16. n. 1. p. 933. and n. 16. p. 941. P In case of perplexity what is to be done c. 7. n. 132. p. 551 seq and c. 12. n 57. p. 751. and n 59. p 753. A speculatiue Perswasion differs much from a practicall c. 14. n. 46. p. 879. S. Peter and the Apostles vindicated from the errour imputed to them by Chill c. 3. n. 34. 35. p. 303. 304. S Peters Primacie over all the Apostles c. 14. n. 35 p. 871. seq He was not preseÌ„t wheÌ„ the Apostles contended who was the greater n. 36. p. 873. His name Peter is a title of great honour n. 39. p. 874. his power over all the church descended to his successors n. 41. p 875. seq Points necessary and principall rightly declared c. 2. n. 128 p. 218. 219. the most points of catholique Religion held by some Protestants or other n. 91. 92. p. 193 194. 195. alibi Those by which catholiques are made most odious to the vulgar held by chiefest Protestant Doctours n. 92. p. 195. The Pope held infallible by Potter if he hath but the assistance which the high Priest of the Jewes had c. 11. n. 36. p. 673. This saying of Potter falsly and foolishly interpred by Chill n. 39. 40. p. 675. many disparities betwixt the Church and the Synagogue n. 38. p. 674. seq The Primacie of the Church of Rome is de Jure Divino c. 14. n. 31. p. 868. It is acknowledged by Protestants to be accordinge to order wisely appointed and necessary to be retained yea that no common government can be hoped for without it c. 7. n. 13. p. 467. falsly put 167. aÌ„d n. 60. p. 496. Profession of an errour if it it be meerly exexternall is a less sinne then internall Heresie n. 133. falsly put 123. p. 554. By Prophesye is not only vnderstood the fortellinge of things but also the interpretation of Scripture and in both senses is found in the Church c. 12. n. 81. p. 769. 770. which hath alwayes had such Prophets n. 100. p. 783 An indefinite Proposition in matters of Faith is equivalent to an vniversall c. 12. n. 57. p. 749. Protestants were not first forced by excomunication to separate from the Church but their precedeÌ„t obstinat separation forced the Church to excommunicate them c. 7 n. 62. p. 497. seq For this separation they could haue no grownd n. 169. p. 584. the learned of them taxing of ignoâ—ance and absurdity those that deny salvation to Romane Catholiques n. 151. p. 573. Nor can they haue any evidence against Catholique Doctrine n. 52. p. 490. seq Whose objections were answeared longe before Protestants appeared in the world n. 59. p. 495. Their arguments to proue that by Scripture alone the Articles of Faith are to be knowne fully answeared c. 2. n. 57. p. 159. seq alibi Learned Protestants confesse that the Fathers agree with vs against them c. 2. n. 90. p. 192. They make their owne reason not Scripture as they pretend the Rule of Faith and judge of controversies c. 11. n. 61. p. 692. Whence they must needs haue a Chimericall Church patched vp of as many members repugnant in Faith as are their fancies concerning all sorts of Articles c. 13. n. 35. p. 815. seq Hence Grotius one of the learnedest of them despaired of their vnion except vnder the Pope c. 7. n. 13. p. 467. For once devided from the Roman Church they must