the saluation of the faithfull And in his second booke against Cresconius the Grāmarian he saith That there is an Ecclesiasticall Canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles By which bookes we iudge all other writings both of the faithful of the Infidels Hier. sup Agge cap. 1. Hierom sayth Those things which of their owne heads they deuise as though they came by Apostolike Tradition without the authority and testimony of the holy Scriptures the sword of Gods word striketh Infinite be the Authorities of the Fathers which might be brought to this purpose but I will conclude the point with Vincentius Lirinensis whome D.B.P. in his booke against M. Perkins Vincent aduer Haeres beleeueth not to haue any such wordes who saith The Canon of the Scripture is perfect and sufficient and more then sufficient to al things And again Not that saith he the Canon alone is not sufficient for all things These Fathers I hope knew the Scriptures aswell as D.B.P. or any other Papist and yet notwithstanding al his their obiections the Protestāts Achilles as he tearmeth it stands vnimpeacht by any thing that this or any other cauiller hath said And yet notwithstanding these euident places brought by the general consent of all the Fathers against the fundamētal Ground of Popery Your Rhemists wil tel you Rhem. Test 2. Thes 2. sect 18.19 if you wil beleeue them that they haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures all the fathers most euident reasons that wee must either beleeue Traditions or nothing at all And that S. Augustine often writeth That many of the articles of our Religion and points of highest importance are not so much to be prooued by Scriptures as by Tradition But if we aske them where S. Austine wrote this often and that of many articles of Religion and poynts of highest importance it must be returned with Non est inuentus Not to be found in S. Austin But they perceiuing the whole waight of their cause to lie in this Rhem. Test fol. 559. haue marshalled nine Fathers in a ranke to proue that we must either beleeue Traditions or nothing And yet the very same Fathers haue shewed That no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must bee receiued or beleeued without the Scriptures Cypr. ad Pomp. cont epist Stepha Basil contr Eunomium lib. 3. and the Fathers often times by Traditions vnderstand matters contained proued out of the scriptures that in regard the same was deliuered also by word And many times by Traditiōs they vnderstād ceremonies and customs Now chuse whether you will grant a flat contradiction in the Fathers or reconcile them thus and conclude with vs Ergo the Traditions they meane be no parts or points of the Christian faith For we haue their plain confession That all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures you produce them to witnes That your Traditions be not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your owne deponents wee conclude That your Traditions be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the Catholike faith Looke wel to this Issue They must either dissent frō you or from themselues Now if you will compare the late doctrine of the Romish Church with these Fathers it shal be euident That they haue not only dissented frō them but also vttered open blasphemy against the sacred Scriptures First Cardinal Cusanus intituleth his booke De authoritate ecclesiae Cōcilij supra contra scripturam Of the the authority of the Church Coūcel aboue against the scriptures Syluester Prierias master of the Popes palace Contr. Luther cōclusi de pot Papae saith That indulgences are warranted vnto vs not by the authority of the scripture but by the authority of the Church and Pope of Rome which is greater Boniface the Archbishop of Mentz saith That all men so reuerence the Apostolike See of Rome that they rather desire the ancient institution of Christian Religiō from the Pope than from the holy scripture This saying the Pope hath so approued that he hath caused it to be inserted into the Cannon lawe Dist 40. c. Si Papa Another saith whosoeuer resteth not on the doctrine of the Roman Church and B. of Rome Syluest Prier contr Luther as the infallible rule of God à qua sacra scriptura roburtrahit auctoritatem from which the sacred scripture draweth strength and authority he is an heretike Eckius saith De Ecclesia Scriptura nisi ecclesiae auctoritate non est authētica The scripture is not authētical but by the authority of the church Cardinal Hosius saith De expresso verbo Dei If any man haue the interpretation of the Church of Rome concerning any place of scripture although he neither knowe nor vnderstand whether and how it agreeth with the words of the scripture notwithstanding he hath ipsissimū verbū Dei the very word of God Cardinal Cusanus saith Nicol. Cusan ad Bohem epi. 7. It is no maruel though the practise of the Church expound the scriptures at one time one way and at an other time another way for the vnderstanding or sense of the scripture runneth with the practise And that sense agreeing with the practise is the quickening spirit Henric. doctor Magister sacripalatij Romae ad Legatos Bohemicos sub Felice Papa 1447. Ad Bohem. ep 2. and therefore the scriptures follow the Church but contrariwise the Church followeth not the scriptures Another saith The Pope may change the holy Gospel and may giue to the Gospel according to place and time another sense To conclude therfore with Cardinal Cusanus This is the iudgement saith he of all them that thinke rightly that foūd the authority vnderstanding of the Scriptures in the allowance of the Church and not contrariwise lay the foundation of the Church in the authority of the scriptures I will not mention others that haue blasphemously said Vid. Chemnit exa par 1. pag. 47. That the scriptures without the authority of the Church are no better than Aesops Fables Thus you see how the Grounds of our Religiō are iustified by the Fathers against these blasphemies of the Romish Church And for that I knowe it commonly obiected that we refuse in disputation conference to handle the groūds of Religion I haue thought good in this smal Tract to examin though briefly the Grounds of your Romish Religion dialogue-wise to the end the truth may be the more liuely discerned by the obiections and answers Wherein if I haue not truely laid downe the Groūds of your Religion for the substance therof Or that they haue either bin mistaken by me or that vsing that breuity I haue done they might be more strongly or effectually vrged on your side or that the reasons vrged on our behalfe be either falsly alleaged or not truly handled I shall take it as a speciall grace done vnto me an argumēt of
which be Canonicall and which be Apocrypha Protestant 8 How do you know which is the Church And by what meanes may it be knowen that the Church hath authoritie to determine which be Scriptures and which of them be Canonicall and which be Apocrypha Papist There be many notes and markes reckoned vp by the learned of our side by which the Church may be knowen But we insist chiefly vpon these Antiquitie Vnitie Vniuersality Succession and the power of Miracles And for the authority of the Church it is prooued by the Scriptures Protestant 9 This answere is common to all Heretikes for they alleage somtimes the a Author ope Imper. in Mat. Ho. 48. Church sometime b Iren. adu Haere lib. 3. cap. 2. Traditions sometime c Aug. coÌ„tr Maxim Ariâ— episc li. 1. Councels sometime d De Bapt. c. 6. li. 3. Fathers sometime e In Ioh. ca 2. tract 13 Miracles sometime f De vnit eccle c. 16. Visions sometime g Epist 65. ad gener Succession of Bishops yea h Act. 19.27 Demetrius pretended Vniuersalitie And the i Act. 17 18 19. Philosophers Epicures and Stoickes Antiquity And k Vinc. Lir. ca. 6 ca. 4. Vincentius Lirinensis disproueth Vniuersalitie by the example of the Arrians and Antiquity by the example of the Donatists And for their l In Chron. Suput Rom. prat Sigon de Regn. Ital li. â— Vnitie let that appeare in the seuerall oppositions of their Popes one condemning the decrées of another and decréeing one contrary to another And therefore this is no sufficieÌ„t reason for a man to ground his faith and Religion if we beléeue the m StapletoÌ„ Fortresse Hart. ag Ra. pag. 118. Papists in the like cause for it is a common obiection by them that because Heretikes alleage the Scripture therefore they are no suffieient rule Moreouer this answere passeth the limits of the proposition for it presupposeth the authoritie of the Church to be prooued by the Scriptures and the Scriptures to be prooued by the authority of the Church which is Ignotum per ignotius Idem per idem A proofe of a thing vnknowen by a thing lesse knowen and so no proofe at all Therefore to procéede to the next part of the diuision what doe you vnderstand by Traditions Papist I vnderstand Apostilicall doctrine commonly called vnwritten verities and as D.B. P. in his booke against M. Perkins diuides them Some are Diuine some Apostolicall and some Ecclesiasticall all which according to the Councel of Trent are to be receiued with equall reuerence Conc. Trid. Sess 4. and religious affection as we do the Scriptures Protestant 10 How doe you proue Traditions or vnwritten verities to bee Apostolicall doctrine and that they be Diuine Apostolicall and Ecclesiasticall and that they are to bee receiued with equall reuerence and religious affection as we doe the Scriptures Papist 2. Thess 2 15. I proue it by the Scriptures interpreted by the Church Saint Paul saith Hold the Trations which yee haue learned whether it bee by word Conc. Trid. â—ess 4. or by Epistle which by the Churches exposition proueth vnwritten verities to be receiued with equall authoritie to the Scriptures and to explane the same D.B.P. aforesayd affirmeth that Diuine Traditions come from our Sauiour Christ Apostolicall Traditions from the Apostles And the Decrees of the Church hee tearmeth Ecclesiasticall Traditions which are likewise of equall authoritie with the Scriptures Protestant 11 This is a common fault with you to vse this point of Sophistrie called by the Logicians Petitio principij for you wil stil take it for graunted that you are the Church though you neuer prooue it And this is a necessary consequence That if the trueth be doubted of the church must néedes bee much more doubted of because the Church is the number of men professing the trueth And how can the professors of the trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question Therefore the supposing your selues to be the church when your faith Religion should be tried is fond vain But if S. Paul in that place by Deliuered Tradition meane nothing but the doctrine deliuered to them by word of mouth yet comprised in Scripture too then must you graunt that you are deceiued to thinke that vnwritten Traditions are approued by S. Pauls Traditions Now what the things were which S. Paul deliuered by word to the Thessalonians is shewed in the 17 of the Acts saying Now as they passed thorow Amphipolis and Apolonia they came to Thessalonica where was a Synagogue of the Iewes and Paul as his maner was entred in vnto them and thrée Sabbath dayes hee discoursed vnto them out of the Scriptures opening and alleaging That Christ must haue suffered and risen againe c. In which wordes it is opened both what Paul deliuered to the Thessalonians by word and from whence From whence Out of the Scriptures What That it behooued Christ to suffer and rise againe Besides Saint Paul witnesseth both to small and great that hee said no other thing than that which the Prophets and Moyses did say should come Act. 26 22 The Traditions therefore that Paul doth exhort the Thessalonians to hold is the Tradition of the Gospel as Saint Ambrose writing vpon the same place calleth it very well which the reason also doth prooue that Saint Ambrose noteth that Paul doth there gather saying God hath raised you to saluation by our Gospel therefore stand ye fast and holde the Traditions which ye haue learned whether it be by word or by Epistle Now I hope there is none so impudent to denie that the Gospel is written But here another difficultie incounters vs If it were granted by the Churches interpretation that there were doctrines or Traditions Diuine Apostolicall or Ecclesiasticall deliuered by word of mouth vpon what sure grounds might wee be assured which be the Traditions that were so deliuered by Christ his Apostles or the Church Papist The ancient Fathers chiefe Papists doe plainely teach that many points of doctrine wherein you varie from vs as halowing the Font the blessing of the oyle the anointing the Baptized Exorcismes Fastes Festiuities prayer for the dead prayer to Saints worshipping of Images the oblation of the Sacrifice their Annealing their Primacie of Rome their fiue pretended Sacraments the merit of workes their satisfactions the numbring their sinnes to the Priest their Real presence their halfe CommunioÌ„ c. See the preface for Priests and See Master Middletons booke called Papisto-Mastix Sect. 5. almost all these things which you defend against vs are proued by the Fathers to be deliuered by Tradition Protestant 12 This sheweth euidently that you are guilty of the same fault that the Pharises were Mark 7.9 by Christs owne reproofe saying You cast aside the commaundements of God to maintaine your owne Traditions Mat 15.9 teaching for doctrine
sée it the Sepulchâ—e opened for his sake and the body assumpteâ— into heauen he saith not one word of these conceits Nay he rather saith against them for he noteth namely That Iames was also present the brother of the Lord and Peter the chiefest and ancientest top of the Apostles And it is not likely he would haue noted two if they had beene all present here is no lesse than seuen lies in lesse than sixe liues Now let vs sée how Damascen your Portesse agréeth For DamasceÌ„ saith The Angels sung almost thrée dayes The Portesse thrée whole dayes Damascen saith The rest of the Apostles would shew to one of them who was absent the bodie The Portesse saith Thomas who was absent would worship the bodie Now what thée Damascen was let your owne doctors tell you who except against him for his tale of Gregory the Pope â—anus locoâ—m Theol 〈◊〉 11. â— Hessels â—nsure de â—stor sanct â— 3. â—erm de funct in 〈◊〉 and Traiane the Emperour Thus Damascen reporteth That Gregorie while he went ouer the market place of Traian did pray for Traians soule to God and behold a voice from heauen I haue heard thy prayer and I pardon Traian but see thou pray no more to me for the wicked These be good places to prooue prayer for the dead and yet it is against popish doctrine that prayer can deliuer any out of hell And if he had béen in Purgatory the Pope could haue dispatched that of himselfe without praying The next is Athan in Euang. de deipara who speaks not one word of your miraculous fault And yet is the same Athanasius reiected for a bastard in your owne edition In edit Petr. Nannij Louan praefat ad episcop Atiebat The last is fiue sermons of S. Barnards in all which likewise there is not one worde of that miracle So that vnlesse they were disposed to lie for the whetstone it is to be wondred how they dare thus abuse their Readers both with the names of counterfeit Fathers and false forgeries If I should collect all such like stuffe it would growe greater than this smal Tract But let the Christian Reader iudge of the rest as hee prooues these to be truly brought against them And if any desire further proofe of the Rhemists sincerity in alleaging Fathers let him obserue these places viz. The constitutions of Clement Luk. 4. Sect. 1. Ignatius Matt. 4. Sect. 2. 1. Peter 2. Sect. 6 Dionysius Areopag Act. 8. Sect. 6. Hypolitus Mat. 24. Sect. 5. Policarpus Act. 6. Sect. 1. Miltiadi Fabian Act. 8. Sect. 6. S. Andrew S. Martiall Hebr. 10. Sect. 11. The Masses of S. Iames Basil and Chrysostome 1. Cor. 11. Sect. 10. Clicton for Ciuil Ioh. 11. Sect. 1. and Paulinus Ioh. 9. Sect. 2. All these are counterfeit Fathers and vrged by the Papists vnder the names of true Fathers to countenance their corrupt doctrine And therefore no maruell if popish leaders instruct their followers to get vs into the plaine field of their Motiues out of our weake and false castell of onely Scripture as Bristowe the Licentiate tearmeth it Brist Motiu 48. And it is no maruell that they haue such store of the Fathers and that our new masters as they tearme vs cannot compare with these Fathers in the doctrines they deliuer when they bring vs onely the names of fathers I could giue instance likewise how the Fathers are often contrary one to another yea contrary to themselues Thus I hope it is plainly prooued by these foure iust exceptions that the Fathers iudgements are no infallible rule for a man to build his faith on though it be imbellisht with the churches exposition And yet wee reuerence and honor them as men that haue brought great light to the vnderstanding of the Scriptures But what doâ— you vnderstand by intituling the ancient Fathers with the name of the church Papist I meane Harâ—â—g Rai that the ioint consent of the Fathers in all doctrines deliuered by them is the doctrine of the Church Protestant 15 What doe you meane by the ioint consent of the Fathers Papist I mean by the ioint consent of the Fathers that which all or the most part of them doe deliuer for trueth wherin if there be any difference the greater number is to be followed for a fewe may bee deceiued more easily than many Protestant 16 This rule séemes to be very vncertaine for you knowe that king Ahab was deceiued by the consent of false prophets 2. Chron. 1â— 5 11. euen 400. against Micaiah yea when the Fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decrée that Bishops Priests DeacoÌ„s should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone Sozom. li. 1. cap. 2â— rose vp in the midst of their Councell and fréely contradicted it and preuailed Besides in the third Exception before it is plainely shewed that the greater number of Fathers are by your selues reiected in the diuision of the coÌ„mandements and in the controuersie betwéene S. Austine and Hierom touching Peters reproofe par 1. wherein your selues grant Torrensis confes Aug. lib. 2. cap. 1. tim â— that Austin iudged more soundly What is therefore then to be done that a certaine and sure ground may bee found out Papist Then a better and more sure way is that which by the faithfull Pastors of the Church is decreed in a generall Councell which cannot erre Protestant 17 Indéed I must confesse it is a sure way to build our faith vpon those Councels which cannot erre But how shal we be assured that they cannot erre Papist We are assured by the Scriptures That the Church cannot erre as is euident by these places following Mat. 18.20 Our Sauiour Christ saith That when two or three are gathered together in his name that he will be in the midst And Ioh. 16 13. he promiseth to send vnto his Church the holy Ghost which shall leade them into all trueth 1. Tim. 3. And S. Paul calles it the Pillar and ground of trueth Vpon which places and many other which for breuity I omit wee conclude that the Church cannot erre which to speake as the Schoolemen doe we call the Church representatiue because the whole Church is there represented in a gerall Councell Protestant 18 Take héede what you doe Will you bring the Church contrary to the iudgement of many learned Papists mentioned in the preface of this booke to take her authority from the Scriptures and to be tried by them whether it may erre If you doe it will be the vtter ruine and destruction of your Religion for the Scriptures will conuince the Councel of Constance of error in taking away the cup from the Laitie contrary to S. Pauls expresse commandement saying 1. Cor. 11. Let a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this bread and drinke of this cup. And contrary to the Institution and commaundement of Christ himselfe saying Drinke you all of this Mat. 26.27
Constant Sess 37 and an Heretike swaruing from the faith and a wilfull notorious manifest subuerter of the Article of our faith One holy Catholike Church Nowe can there bee any doubt that these Popes were neuer comprised in that prayer which Christ made for Peter Or that hel gates haue not preuailed against them When Pope Marcellinus did offer sacrifice to idols as appeares in the Synuessan Councel Pope Liberius subscribed to the Arrians as is testified by S. Hier. confessed by Nicholaus Cusanus and Alfons de Castro both Papists great schoolmen Pope Syluester the 2. was a Necromancer a CoÌ„iurer as Stella Platina Petrus PraemoÌ„strateÌ„sis Nauclerus Antonius do witnes And Pope Anastatius was a NestoriaÌ„ Heretike Li 1. de Haerca 4 as is witnessed by Alfons de Castro And many such instances might be prooued out of their owne stories Thus you sée in what sense soeuer the Papists vnderstand the Church it is proued That it may erre Wherefore are you not singular men to abuse both the scriptures Councels Fathers yea your silly seduced followers with such coÌ„clusions Are these good consequents at Rhemes Peter was set ouer the Church or made Pastor of the Lords flocke Ergo none but Peter Euen so may you reason with much more warrant from the scriptures to proue the supremacie to be in Paul For he saith 1 Tim 1. â—â— The glorious Gospel of the blessed God which is committed to me Ergo to none but Paul Yea he saith 2 Cor 11 26 The care of all Churches were coÌ„mitted to him Ergo to none but him This had béen a pregnaÌ„t place for the Papists if it had béen spoken of Peter according to such inferences as they make And to vrge you a little further It is your maner in the Rhemes Test to say often All the Fathers say this and this and I knowe you bragge much of them That you can prooue all the doctrine you hold by them I pray produce their ioint consent to prooue That all controuersies are to be determined by the Pope Or that he cannot erre Or that he must summon Councels Or that they are of no authority vnles they be confirmed by the Pope All this is Catholike doctrine with the Papists and yet I thinke they cannot name any one Father that is ancient and not counterfeit to confirme thus much or to auowe any of these points Is it not strange therefore that you should reiect the Scripture which is the onely rule of faith to build your Religion on such vncertainties as in this small Tract hath béen declared and shewed This Gerson a learned Papist sawe and therefore hée sayth Gers primâ—l part de exa doctrin considerat 5. That there is more credit to be giuen to one man learned in the Scriptures and hauing them of his side than either to the Popes sentence or to the decrees of a generall Councel This made Cardinal Caietane say In praef coÌ„ment in libr. Moyse That God hath not tied the exposition of the Scriptures vnto the senses of the Fathers And that if he fall vpon a newe sense agreeable to the Texte though it goe against the streame of the Fathers he doth aduise the reader not to mislike it Andrad defensi fidei Trid. li. 2. This made Andradius the defender of the Tridentine Councel to defend Caietan against Canus saying That experience forceth vs to confesse vnlesse we will bee vnthankfull to most excellent wits that very many things in Moyses and the Prophets are in this our age expounded more exactly through the diligence of learned men than euer they were before And concludeth that the holy Ghost the onely and faithfull interpreter of the Scriptures would haue many things to be knowen to vs which our ancestors knew not And hath wrought by meanes vnknowen to vs knowen to him that the Fathers noted good and godly mysteries out of very many places of the Scripture whereof the right and naturall sense hath beene found out by the posteritie Thus you sée that if wee bee deceiued Scriptures Popes Councels Fathers and learned and chiefe Papists haue deceiued vs who haue taught the same trueth that wee defend Papist Well What colours soeuer you bring of Scriptures Fathers Councels Popes and learned men of our owne side yet this is an vndoubted position that vnlesse you maintaine that the Church cannot erre and that thereby you vnderstand the definitiue sentence of the Pope you bereaue your selues of all meanes to settle your selues in the vnity of faith neither haue you any meanes to end controuersies For leauing euery man to his owne priuate exposition whiles one expoundeth the Scriptures one way and another another way This sense is plaine in the exposition of the one That sense is contradicted by the opinion of the other there can neuer be end of these differences And therefore there must bee some Tribunall on earth where trueth may bee found at all times and of all men that be willing to seeke for it Otherwise there should bee no stay for Religion nor end of contention euery man pretending his faith to bee trueth and no man hauing authoritie to decide which is truth which were most absurd And therfore since you must of necessitie yeeld to haue a Iudge for auoiding so great inconueniences who can bee fitter than the Pope and the Church Protestant This is Redire ad vomitum and for the auoiding of a lesse fault to fall into a greater Since it is prooued in euery sense where you haue taken the Church That it may erre And therefore how much better were it that there should be continuall disagréement about matters of Religion than to maintaine false doctrine Saint Iude saith It was needefull for me to write vnto you Iude ver 3. to exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once giuen vnto the Saints 1. Cor. 11.19 And Saint Paul saith There must bee Sectes amongst you that they that bee perfect may bee knowen For as wee must respect Vnitie so wee must take héede that it bee Secundum Iesum Christum According to Iesus Christ An vnitie in veritie For better a diuersitie in vnitie than an vnitie in Poperie And therefore wee are commaunded 1 Ioh. 4. 1 Thess 5. to trie the spirits whether they be of God Trie all things and holde fast that which is good Ephes 5. Bee not vnwise but vnderstand what the will of the Lord is Bee renewed in your minde Rom. 12. that you may discerne what the good and acceptable and perfect will of GOD is Phi. 1.9 This I pray that your loue may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all iudgement that you may discerne the things that are best 1. Cor. 2. Hee that is Spirituall discerneth all things These exhortations were not giuen by the Spirit of God in vaine which of necessitie must follow if you debarre all Christians other
Christ hauing neuer béene prohibited as vnlawfull vntill the Councell of Constance which was 1400. yéeres after Christ But Controuersies may be ended and heresies abolished either by conuincing those out of the Scriptures that maintaine them as diuers heretikes were before either Pope or Councell were thought of Or by the authoritie of the Magistrate commanding for trueth and inioining their silence and obedience â— Chro. 14. â— 3 4 5. according to the examples of Asa the King of Iudah who commanded his people to doe according to the Law â— Chro. 29. c. And Ezechiah who restored the worship of God and diuers other Kings in the old Testament 2. Chro. 17 ver 3 4 5 8. ca. 19 ver 4 8 9 10 11 c 33. v. 11 12 13 15. câ— 34. v. 3 4 7 29.30 3â— 32 33. câ— 35. v. 1 2 3 4.5 6. as Iehoshaphat Manasses Iosiah and others yea Salomon did dedicate the Temple in his owne person and * 1. King 8. ca. 2. v. 3 cast out Abiathar from being Priest vnto the Lord and placed Zadok in his roume And Saint Austine in many places sheweth Kings are charged with Gods Law in respect of commanding it to others In the times of the Prophets saith he All the Kings which in the people of God did not forbid and ouerthrowe those things Aug. Epi. 5 which were brought in against the commandements of God are blamed and they that did prohibit and subuert such things are praised aboue the rest And for that part of the obiection that wee leaue euery man to his priuate exposition which though therein wee are wrongfully charged by our aduersaries yet the trueth is we challenge not to our selues as the Papists do the true interpretation of the Scriptures as if they were appropriated vnto vs But we submit our selues and our interpretations whatsoeuer according to the Generall and receiued doctrine of the Fathers in that point to be compared and tried by the Scriptures Or to auoide your cauelling if you will to the Church which are men speaking by the Scriptures Neither is this part of the obiection of so great weight or consequence as it may séeme at the first blush For most of the differences betwéene vs and the Papists are not touching the sense of the Scripture séeing it is confessed by learned Papists as I haue prooued in the preface of this booke that most of the doctrines wherein they vary from vs are grounded on Tradition And all men of reason know that where ther is no Text there néedes no Interpreter All the danger therefore lieth in the last part of the obiection when mens corrupt affections may take those things for trueth which are not and reiect those which are a thing impossible to bee preuented since euery man vnderstands according to the capacitie and conceite whereof himselfe is And herein likewise is the doctrine of Christ verefied as Saint Paul sayth 2. Cor. 4.3 If our Gospell bee hidde it is hidde to them that are lost For no man can come vnto mee sayth Christ except the Father which haue sent me drawe him Iohn 6.44 1. Cor. 3.4 6 Yea Paul may plant and Apollo may water but God must giue the increase For though the Sunne bée of most excellent brightnesse yet none can sée it but those which haue eyes euen so is it of the Scriptures which as Saint Peter sayth They that are vnlearned and vnstable 2. Pet. 3.16 doe peruert to their own damnation But shal we leaue the Triall of the Scriptures to which all the Fathers referre vs either because many peruert them or for that the diuel alleaged them or for that it is common to all Heretikes to make challenge and boast of them No for all Heretikes haue béen by the Scriptures rightly vnderstood confuted and confounded yea euen the deuill himselfe Mat. 3.7 as Christs owne example teacheth vs was conuicted by the same weapon wherewith hee thought to haue vanquished our Sauiour But to make this plaine by example what Lawyer will offer to defend a badde cause but hee will bring Lawe for his purpose and shall this debarre or preiudice the other that pleades against him That hée shall not by Lawe conuince the Errours and Sophistries or Quirkes and Quiddities which are brought against him Nay rather anie man of iudgement hauing heard both parties will readily distinguish and say The one makes a a shewe of Lawe but the other hath Lawe indeede And euen thus it rests in those controuersies that are betweene vs and the Papists touching the Sense of the Scripture onely and not for those differences which the maintaine by Tradition Petr. â— Soto adu Brent Canisi in catechi ca. 5. Lindan in pan li. 4. ca. 100. Peresius par 3. Rhe. Test Gal. 2. sect 4 which by the iudgement of their owne men as I haue already shewed are the greater number And albeit the Rhemists would insinuate That the controuersies betweene vs are whether the Iudge or the Euidence bee of greater authority yet that shift will not serue them for all men of iudgement knowe that that is not the question betwéene vs. But the difference is whether the Iudge or the Law bee of greater authoritie where euery wise man will graunt the Lawe to be supreame whereunto the Iudge is to obey and according to which to giue his sentence or else by the Lawe his erronious iudgement is to be reuersed Neither is there other Iudiciall authority in the Church than in the common wealth which is to determine controuersies according to the Lawe and the true meaning thereof And if there be question of the Sense of the Law The Lawmakers minde is to be discussed by his wordes and the circumstances and occasions of making the Lawe And euen so the meaning of the Scripture is to be taken onely out of the Scripture as Clemens saith â—iâ— 37. ca. â—elatum You ought not to seeke a strange and forraine sense without the Scriptures that you may confirme it by any means by the Scriptures But sense of trueth you must take out of the Scriptures themselues Saint Augustine * Confess Aug. praef ad lecto whose doctrine your selues doe acknowledge to be grounded on the lawes the maners the iudgements of all the Catholike Church whom you call a witnesse of the sincere trueth and Catholike Religion such a witnesse as no exception can be made against who assureth you as you say not onely of his owne but also of the common the constant faith and confession of the ancient Fathers and the Apostolike Church This Augustine hath written foure bookes of Christian doctrine wherein he purposely intreateth howe men should vnderstand the Scripture and expound it The summe of all his Treatise doeth aime at this marke That a Aug. de doct Christ li. 1. ca. 2. the meaning of the Scripture must bee learned out of the Scripture by the consideration of things