A CONFERENCE BETWEEN Two Protestants AND A PAPIST Occasion'd by the Late Seasonable Discourse Anno Dom. 1673. To the Reader AS Chance is sometimes more lucky than Design an unexpected Reâ—contre has discovered more to me of the Inside of Papists than I could ever learn by Enquiry I carried a Friend oâ— mine to a Coffee-house with no farther thoughts than to divert my self for half an hour and oblige him by â—n entertainment of little expense In a corner of â—he Room I observ'd a Papist one whom I had long known alone and pensive entertaining himself with his thoughts and pipe and little minding the rest of the Company which was all seated some distance from him The convenience of the place invited us to sit down by him and there happen'd a discourse betwixt us which I here communicate to you as near as I can in the 〈◊〉 words in which it past at least I am confident not differing in substance for as soon as we parted I went immediately home and writ it down and as my memory was then fresh and my attention had been great I believe I have omitted nothing which was material To avoid repetitions I will put an F. for my Friend a P. for the Papist and for my self an N. After the usual passages of civility were ended I began the Discourse in this manner A Conference c. N. I Am sorry to observe your pensiveness Will you permit me to guess at the cause and tell you I suspect the late Seasonable Discourse may have some share in it P. I was indeed thinking of that Book N. Truly I cannot blame your trouble That Gentleman has treated you something severely and if a Book which brings you so much shame bring you some sorrow too you may be pardoned P. I must confess I was very sorry to see that Book though for other reasons it may be than those which you imagine But why do you think it so shameful to us N. Why is it not a great shame to be such stiff Enemies â—s you are to so glorious a Church as the Church of England and such stiff maâ—ntainers of so stupid a Religion as yours is P. For my Religion this is no place to give account of it There are Books enough which treat of that Subject Only since you are acquainted with me I appeal to your self whether you do in earnest believe me so stupid as to be given to Idolatry or Superstiâ—ion or the belief of Stories as impossible as Amadis de Gaul or the Knight of the Sun which that Gentleman charges on us N. I must declare I think better of you But you cannot deny your eâ—â—â—â—ty to the Church of England P. I am â—aâ— from being an Enemie to it F. By your favour Sir your principles are so fitted to the greatness of your great Spiritual Monarch that you cannot be friends to any Church but â—is no not evâ—n of your own communion For you hold that nothing upon the matter can be done in matters oâ— Religion but what is done at Rome A Convocation not call'd by allowance from thence is thought but a Conventicle A Bishop cannot be made a Canonry a Rectory granted no Dispensation given no Ecclesiastical Authority exercâ—z'd but the Pope must be at one end I say nothing of our controversial Differences because I perceive you are not willing to meddle with them But 't is plain that while you hold thus all but Italians and those of the Popes Territories too must needs be back friends to the Churches of their Native Countreys Nay you are within a little of leaving no Churches to which you might be kind For what is a Church without Authority And if all Authority be in the Church of Rome she is the onely Church and all the rest but so many Parishes of her large Diocese so much the worse to be govern'd by how much they are farther distant from the onely true Bishop for the rest will have no more than the name P. How little do you understand how the world goes 'T is â—rue there are of my Religion who are possest with this fancy that unless the Bishop of Rome intervene almost in every thing nothing is well done And this I believe happens in a great measure from a pâ—ece of Policie the greatest that ever has been practised in that Court. At least I have been inform'd so by one who assured me he learn'd so much at Rome it self and that from a Regular too And that is the Exemptions which have been granted to most Regulars and many Chapters which have been exempted to a great degree from the Jurisdiction of their respective Bishops and subjected immediately to the Pope These Communities thus exempted are obliged for their own Interest and to preseâ—ve the â—dvantages which they enjoy by exemption to magnifie the Power which exempted them By which means both they themselves are brought to depend on the Pope alone and Bishops too who all dependance on them being thus taken away are left weak and defenseless and unable to maintain their due Authority I cannot tell whether the Jealousies of Princes peradvâ—nture suspicious of too much Authority in their Subjects have noâ— much contributed to this effâ—ct For I see that in some places they have made particular agreements with the Pope against the inclinations and even Remonstrances of their own people according to which their Bishops are forced to regulate themselves However it be this Paramount Omnipotent if I may so call it Authority of the Bâ—shop of Rome has been cry'd up so much and so long and by so many and those so much concern'd though thought disinteressed by the vulgar that it has now gain'd a great vogue and passes among those who look not into things for unqâ—estionable And yet the vogue is much less now than heretofore before our Countreyman Occam began to write in behalf of Lewis of Bavaria Notwithstanding still there are who think the cry greater than the wool and even complain and wish for remedy That Author and you after him look upon this as part of my Religion when alas how many are there of my Religion who look upon it as a grievance They were of my Religion who made the several Sâ—atures of Provisors and Praemunire which alone would serve for answer to a good parâ— of the Book in question However they declare there very plainly that the interposing of the Court of Rome and this even in presentments to Benefices or at least cognâ—â—â—nce of the Plea translation of Bishopâ— c. which be matters Spiritual enough are clearly against the Kingâ— Crown and his Regality used and approved of the time of all his Progenitors That the Crown of England hath been so free at all times that it hath been in no Earthly Subjection but immediately subject to God in all things touching the regality of the same and to none other And God defend say they it should be submitted to the Pope as by the
interposing aforesaid they declare it would and the Laws and Statutes of the Realm by him defeated and avoided at his will Besides that they will stand with the King his Crown and Regality in the cases aforesaid and in all other cases attempted against him his Crown and Regality in all points to live and die I know not but methinks 't is very strange that People should be suspected of disaffection to their National Church and this out of too much affection to the Pope who a low not the Pope to meddle so much as with the most inconsiderable Benefice of the Nation I conceive it is the right of every Nâ—tional Church to provide for the particular concerns of that Nation without any necessity of recourse to Forreigners Sure I am that we who live now are as true Englishmen as our Ancestors and love Forreigners no more nor think our selves ty'd to more subjection to them If the State would think fit to allow us Englishmen sâ—ch of whoâ—e fidelity and affâ—ction to their Countrey they were well assured to whom we might have recourse for our spiritâ—al concerns we should quickly remove their jealousies that we are over much affected to Strangers F. If you be so little affected to Strangers why do you not enter into tâ—e communion of the Church of England P. While our controversial differences remain undecided if we come we must come with bad Consciences and I suppose the Church of England would not admit of Hypocrites Neither indeed is it for her safety to receive those who do not believe as she doeâ— F. If we must not expect you till the differences of Religion be determined I expect you not till Doomsday People have writ and writ these hundred years and the more they write the further we are from agreeing The end of Controversie and the end of the World I believe will happen both in one day P. With any other Church of the Reformation perhaps it might be as you say but I do not think the Controversies betwixt the Church of England and us so irreconcileable as you imagine And for this reason understanding Catholicks are more affected to her than any Church of the Reformation She began the Separation in an orderly way and free from those tumultuous violences which happened in other places And as things carried by deliberation are always better done than when they are hurried on by heady raâ—â—ness though we think she has gone tâ—o far yet I believe her moderation has preserved what may one day help much to closing the breach betwixt us when Gods providence shall employ men about it who truly dâ—sire it F. Pray what do you mean by this P. I mean more than I shall perhaps upon the sudden remember You must be contented with what occurs Fâ—rst we oâ—â—â—â—ve that she and peradventure she alone has prâ—serv'd the face of a continued mission and uninterrupted Ordâ—nation Then iâ— Doctrines her moderation is great She professing not posiâ—ively to disbelieve but onely not to believe most iâ— not â—ll points in diâ—ference betwixt us and in thâ—se of greatest concern has exâ—râ—st her self very warily and so that her words may be brought to â—uit with our belief unlâ—â—â— where to gratifie I suppose other dissenters some harsh exprâ—ssion has been inserted beyond the intention of the first compilers of her Doctrines In Discipline she â—reserves the Government by Bishops agreeing in that point which is of great concern so alone with the Church of Rome thâ—t when the Reformation met in the Synod of Dort the Englâ—sh I â—hiâ—k were the onely Bishops there But above all we prâ—ze in hâ—r the aversion she has from Fanâ—tâ—cism and that wild error of the private Spirit with whâ—ch 't is impossible to deal since what they believe to day they may disbelieve tomorrow From this absurdity the Church of England desiâ—es to keep heâ— self free She holds indeed that Scripture is the Rule of Controversie but she holâ—s withall Thaâ— it is not oâ— private interpretation She is for Vinâ—â—ntius Lyrineâ—sis Quod ab omnibus quod semper quod ubique and we are for the same Our Controverâ—ists indâ—â—d generally â—â—y That Tradition is the Rule and when this comes to be scan'd I believe it will be found the true difference is more in words than meaning at least it may soon and easiâ—y be seen which of the two spâ—ak more properly However while we both agree in that meâ—hod of Vincentius which is an open visible way and has nothing of the pâ—ivate â—ancy miscall'd the Spirit methinks ' tweâ—e no â—â—ch impossible thing to take our Controversies one by one and try them by that Test. We shall not insist upon what is not Vincentiâ—â— pâ—oâ—â— and what is shâ— professes to â—mâ—race as well as we N. I mâ—st confâ—ss I did not reflect on â—o much befâ—â—e But methâ—nks so many learned and good men â—aving spent their time in the study of these things they must needs have thought of all which can be thought on And since we see no effect of all their mediâ—ations I cannot but think there must of necessity be more in the case some impossibility or other which has scap'd your observation Otherwise why should the breach last so long if it may so easily be closed up P. I am not so vain to imagin I see all that can be seen I tell you wâ—at appears to me It may be there may be something which appears not But I wish it were put to tryal and learned and unpassionate men employ'd to consider what might be done Men oâ— animosity and stiffness do more harm with their bitterness than theâ— can do good with their learning But if people would once lâ—y aside their passions and not look upon one another as enemies they might peradventure quickly cease to be so You must needs perceive that the weak and the fierce are a great deal more numerous than the Judicious and the calm When any thing is said or written on either side which by good handling might be improv'd to some degree of reconcilement generally there steps in som or other of the former sort as the more ignorant and passionate a man is the more rash and busie he is too and by his fiery zeal not onely choaks the seed of any good overture but for the most part makes things worse than they were before 'T is possible there may be some who do not desire Contentions should be ended whether it be from a perverseness of nature or the consideration of some particular Interest But I see with grief that moderate counsels have been discountenanc'd on both sides Even this Author himself has a fling at Pacific writâ—rs F. And has he not reason when those peaceful pretences are but baits to catch the unwary Proselyte who when he is once hung there is no getting loose again but concessions are retracted the painted shews washt off and he has nothing left but a fruitless repentance P. As if we
make England depend on the Pope and fift Monarchyst's to ruine the English Monarchy and Agitator and I know not what I suppose to shew he can quibble otherwise every body leâ—s if we could so easily and undiscoverably disguise our selves we were mad if we took not all the shape of Protestants and so avoided the danger of the Law without more ado For who should find us out if we could make all the woâ—ld believe we were Protestants Alas â— you know and we know too weâ—l that a Papist cannot long conceal his Religion If these be your shrewd stories your hate to us will let any thing pâ—ss I have not seen any thing that pretends to serious less significant and a body would have thought a Church-man should better know what belong to defaming our Neigebour thaâ— to expose the credit of a great many innocent men to scandal upon such no-grounds as he mentions F Nay Sir I declared before it was only out of curiosity I spoke of this matter For I ever thought it very od you should be lookt upon as friends to the King during all the times of confusion and for that reason be out of favour with all the several changes of Government and of a sudden be charged with Annuity to the King when he came in But I thank you for the information you have given us and avow frâ—ely to you I shall carry away apprehensions of you very different from what I brought in For indeed I thought the blind implicite obedience had involv'd you all into stupid and unsufferable errors and rendred you unfit not only for protection but even harbor amongst honest men But I perceive 't is with you as with the rest of the world where there are good and bad of all sorts And though I have no kindness for your Religion yet I will confess I begin to wish as well as you that the book which has occasioned all our discourse had not been written for methinks 't is hard to charge the follies of some without distinction upon aâ—â— P. I cannot tell what the design of the Author was 'T is in the number of unknowable secrets and we ought still to judge favourably of things we know not But his Book seems apt to stir animosities which if he judge seasonable I should think not so charitable Neither can I understand why the moderate share we had in the late Indulgence should occasion so much Zeal against us and none against others who were more largly indulged and are otherwise much and many ways more considerable Especially when I consider the Topies he uses your Religion says he is an excellent Religion and ours full of stupidity Be it so may we not therefore be Permitted to say our prayers in private Which is all the Indulgence allow'd us Sure t is no part of the goodness of your Church to hinder others from being as good as they can and the worse our Religion is the more need we have of praying to make us better Again let the Pope claim what power he pleases and that power be as inconvenient as that Gentleman pleases private prayer will not therefore be inconvenient or you receive any harm from what passes in private Against seditious Doctrines such as those are declared by Catholicks to be I hope the Laws takes Order and they are excepthd by the very declaration 'T is the name of Abby Lands and Vbby-Lubbers and the rest of the inconveniences he mentions private prayer certainly will never pray them in and were there any danger of them we should help you to our powers to keep them out His Topic of Auricular confession in my opinion might have been spared in respect to the Church of England which is far from disaproving such Confession And however every body must needs see that there are Nations who use it as careful of the honours of their Families every jot as the English and something more jealous An abuse may sometimes happen from which there is nothing so sacred that can always be free but good things are not to be taken away because t is possible they may be abused At worst I do not see that you are concern'd If we have a mind to prostitute our Wives and Daughters how are youthâ— less safe or which way endanger'd if we be all Whâ—res and Cuckolds We fell a laughing at that expression and that laughter broke of our discourse and soon after our company I parted as soon as I had payd our Coffee and I wish you may think your few pence as well bestow d on the Relation as I did mine to hear it FINIS