way it is too common for men to broach their owne pleasures for their Religion is made of mens inventions Thus much for your 10th Reason YEt furthermore for addition to these ten Reasons you adde a Question * your Qeustion is what these men would have in this Toleration Whether the number of five or sixe Congregations onely and no more Or whether the number shall be left undetermined and be free to multiply c. For answer to this I doe affirme that the number ought not to be limitted for the Churches of the New Testament were free to multiply not onely in greatnesse but also in number I say they were left free by God for the Apostles were not limitted from constituting Churches wheresoever men were brought to beleeve in Christ But say you it is their principles to breake one Church in two or three I answer I know no man that holdeth any such principle But say you it hath beene so at Amsterdam Roterdam and London To this I answer I deny not but that there may be offences taken and sometimes given which may cause men to depart one from another as Paul and Barnabas did sometimes about persons and sometimes about things and wofull experience teacheth all men that brethren are apt to fall out by the way and that Ioseph knew very well when he admonished his brethren to the contrary * But though some should be offended and could not be reconciled as the Scripture saith a brother offended is harder to be wonne than a strong citie * yet the departing of such a brother or brethâ—en cannot make that Church two Churches yet notwithstanding this may sometimes tend to the further spreading of the Gospell even as the departing of Paul and Barnabas did Not that I justifie the practise of any that are not apt to beare but that God doth sometimes bring good out of evill as it was in the selling of Ioseph * by turning it to his owne glory and the good and comfort of his people Therefore you neede not to marvell which shall be the state approved by the Magistrate because that properly there remaineth but one intire state in such cases of division as you have before mentioned By all this it appeares that it is none of our principles to breake one Church into two or three But you say if the number be left undetermined there may be many Churches in a Towne For answer whereof I must tell you that I reade in the Scriptures of no more Churches in a towne but one as in Ierusalem where there were many Converts yet I reade but of one Church Now this was in the first plantation of the Gospell but what they might increase to afterward the Scripture is silent in for any thing I know But that there may be two or three in one place as you say that seemeth unto me to be confusion except they should meete in one place for consultation which may very well be for God is the God of Order and not of confusion And I never reade in the Scripture that two Churches met together in one place for the practise of publike worship But say you we may have every where three or foure men of an opinion differing from others to goe to make a Church To this I answer If you meane by every where in every Towne of the Land I say although it should be so and though there be sixe townes in a Parish yet it will be no no confusion for the fewer they are together the lesse ground will there be of fearing them But touching divisions and subdivisions If any such thing happen it is but that which we have bin told on before The Apostles words are these They went out from us because they were not of us c. * and if evill minded men that crept in departed from Christ * we neede not to thinke much that such creepers in should depard from us also yet the disorderly going away of any as I have said before doth not make them a Church which goe away disorderly And thus I have given you an answer to your second tenth Reason * for in your Booke you have by your stile made it a Reason though you seemed at the first entrance into it to make it but a question But before you conclude the whole you subjoyne to these the Answer to five or sixe things which you would make to be their reasons and you say that they are continually alleadged by them for their toleration in this Kingdome THe first Reason you say they bring is that toleration is no more then the French and Dutch enjoy who live among us Indeede that is a very good reason for methinkes it stands with equitie that Natives borne should have as much priviledge as Strangers But you would seeme to alter the state of the case in sixe respects First That the French and Dutch Protestants have nothing nor desire nothing as contra distinct to the Protestants of France and Holland I answer if the Protestants of France and Holland have liberty of their conscience and be not at all burdened with Iewish Popish or Heathenish Observations but may be free there to worship God according to his Will revealed in his Word then they that are here amongst us neede not to seeke more liberty and I am sure the Independant men will aske no more Secondly you say that this liberty was granted by our Pioâ—s Princes in the times of persecution to the Protestants Here you crosse your first respect for if these Protestants were persecuted in France then it is certaine their Religion was different from the state of their owne Nation for you say they could not enjoy their Religion at home Furthermore you adde that it hath beene kept ever since for a refuge to the persecuted Protestants To which I answer The very like may be said of the libertie granted to the English Church in Amsterdame which hath beene a refuge for the Protestants which have beene persecuted out of England ever since But you say we may enjoy our Religion in this Land and that by the authority of the King and Parliament If it be so I pray you what is the meaning of the bleating of such cattell as your selfe which cry out dayly to the King and Parliament for the suppression of the Lords people and for the hindring of their meetings Thirdly you say The French and Dutch Churches will willingly be joyned in Government and in one way of discipline with the Kingdome if there be a Reformation Indeede if you had not added a great If here you had told a loud untruth but if this were performed that there were a Reformation according to Gods Will I doubt not but the Independant men would doe the like Fourthly you say these Churches doe not hold our principles but doe admit of appeales in great businesses I answer I have told you already and I now tell you againe that I admit of
appeales also such as the Scripture warrants and I have declared at large what appeales they be * Fifthly you say they be strangers different in Language and have little acquaintance with you keeping themselves for the most part among themselves and therefore say you there will be the lesse danger of drawing away the people I answer if they differ so little from you as you would make the world beleeve there were small cause of danger or Schisme if they will willingly be joyned as you said before in Government and in one way of discipline with the Kingdome Further you adde that they vent no principles against your Church and Government I answer Indeede if they should never open a mouth to speake yet their practise makes them different from you both in worship and government and yet it may be upon better considerations they may draw neerer to the rule hereafterâ— but for my part I leave them as being partly ignorant of their practise But you say they will not admit your people to be members of their Congregations Answer Indeede I doe not know that ever they have refused any but this much I know that some English people that have the French and Dutch tongue have and doe goe thither to heare but that any should desire to goe thither to heare that have not the language were very absurd Sixthly There is say you a great reason and necessity of allowing them Churches and places to preach and be by themâ—â—lves and the reasons you yeeld are 1 because many of them understand not English at all and 2 for the benefit of strangers of their owne Religion To which I answer The very same may be said concerning the English Churches in Holland But further you adde that they may well be allowed some Discipline among themselves in respect they maintaine all their owne poore Methinks Mr. Edwards there should be much more reason that the English Protestants or Separates should be tolerated for the same cause for they maintaine all their owne poore also And furthermore they maintaine the poore of the Church of England yea in every parish where their dwelling houses stand they pay to the poore weekely as well as any other man They also pay their money for the maintenance of the Visited Houses in the Parishes where they dwell Nay furthermore they pay also their mony for the maintenance of the Priests of England the more is the pitty and so I feare the Dutch and French doe also yea though the Priests are as Popish as they were in Qâ—eene Maries time And this is well knowne to all Landlords that doe let them houses for if they know them to be Separates and that they will not have to doe with the Priests in the pay ment of that they call dues they make their Tenant pay the more rent for if the Tenant will not the Landlord must And by this you may see their burthens are double to other mens in that they must maintaine their owne poore and their owne Ministers and the Church of Englands also And by this you may see that you have not in the least altered the state of the case betweene the Dutch and French and us in the causes before mentioned Therefore this their first reason for toleration lies yet unanswered by you FOr answer to their second Reason which you say is that they seeke no more then is granted them in Holland your answer to it is this That if that be a good ground then Jewes and Anabaptists may have a toleration also To this I answer For my part I speake for my selfe and I suppose that they may say as much for themselves in these late respects which you have mentioned as the Separates doe for they maintaine their poore and their Ministers and the poore and the Priests of the Church of England as well as we And I thinke they are persecuted and hunted also but I will leave them to pleade for themselves Further you adde That such a Toleration is not fit neither in Divinity nor in policie I answer I know no true Divinitie that teacheth men to be Lords over the conscience and I thinke it is no part of Godly policie to drive the Kings subjects out of the land because they desire free liberty to worship God in the Land according to his will the States of Holland are counted politicke and yet they esteeme it the Strength of their Kingdome to grant free libertie of conscience Secondly you say there may be a toleration for us in Holland with much more safety to the government established then can be here because the people understand not our language and also have little or no relation to us of kindred and friendship c. I answer I must say to you as I have said already that there was never any danger to a Kingdome to suffer the Lords people to live quietly and enjoy their liberty Thirdly you say The people of the Holenders are generally industrious and mind their businesse and keeping to what is established by their Lawes not troubling their heads so much with other points of Religion By this one may easily perceive your minde Mr. Edwards with the rest of your fellowes and also know that you are naturally derived from Rome in that you would have all men to content themselves with an implicit faith and to take for granted what government your Lawes alloweth and what worship your inventions have hatcht and not to search the the Scripture at all Further you add here that the people in England are not so especially in this city of London and great Townes you say many of the professors are more idle and busie bodies tatlers also as it is said 1 Tim. 5. 13. very wanton also in their wits affecting novelties in Religion c. Now truly Mr. Edwards if you were of my mind and were a member of such a Church that had such members in it you woulde be so farre from fearing of being beguilded of them that you would be very glad to have such birds taken out of your nest But you are so farre from observing the rule of Christ Matth. 18. 15. that is to tell your brother of his fault betweene him and you that you rather walke with slanders and elamours vilifying your owne mothers sonnes so that every good man may be ashamed of you Fourthly you say that Holland tolerates us and many others but it is more upon grounds and necessitie of worldly respects because of the benifite of exsise towards the maintenance of warre Now Mr. Edwards you have utterly overthrowne your owne Argument laid downe in the beginning of your answer to this their second Reason for then you said it was against the rule of policie but now you say it is their policie And whereas you would make the case different betweene England and Holland I answer It is not different at all for England hath the Subjects purses to maintaine warres as well as Holland
should have stayed in Egypt and made him bricke but he would not suffer them to goe into the wildernesse to offer sacrifice But if Pharoah had beene willing to have succoured the children of Israel he would have commanded his taskemasters not to lay burthens upon them that they could not beare but he did not doe so and therefore their bricke-making turned to persecution even as your injunctions and penall Lawes doe here in England and you binde them up with a pretence of his Majesties command which makes the burthen very mighty By this it is plaine that no good man can live in England without persecution even at this day But you would have them to have a third way for you say persons may live in the Land and injoy their Lands and liberties and not be compelled to professe and practise things against their conscience I pray you Mr. Edwards bethinke yourselfe now how untruly you speake and whether you doe not looke one day to give an account for your words for you know that no man can live in this land and enioy his lands and liberty but he shall be forced to worship according to the custome of the Nation Nay children that be but sixteene yeares of age though ignorant and scandalous in their lives are forced to receive the Sacrament of the Lords Supper though it be to their utter condemnation Further you adde that if upon petition to the Parliament the Papists should have the Statutes repealed which injoyne them to come to your Church yet say you the granting the Papists a publike toleration for their Religion would be quite another thing in as much as you say though the Papists were the first in pâ—tâ—tioning for the former yet they move not for the latter For answer to this I tell you First That for granting the Papists publike exercises will not much crosse your principles for they and you are naturall brethren Secondly for that they move not for the latter as you say They neede not for they injoy it without moving and till this Parliament none hath disturbed them for many yeares But further you adde that so you judge that the Independant men may live in the land freely and injoy their liberties and estates but you have your clause whereby you still crosse all your own tale your clause is that it must be by comming to your Churches and enjoying the Ordinances Whereas you say so you judge it presupposeth that the Papists doe come to your Churches by what comes after that it must be by comming to your Churches and enjoying the Ordinances Indeede the Papists may come to your Churches and injoy your Ordinances for first they were their Ordinances for when you apostated from Rome you carried the Romish traditions with you even as your forefathers in their apostacie from Christ Iesus carried some of his Ordinances with them so you retaine something of Gods to make your owne ware passe in sale and have patched you up a bundle of worship borrowing â—lso some Iewish and Heâ—â—henish Ceremonies to make up your paâ—ke and will you be so kinde to suffer men to live in the land if they will but submit to this worship and promise them they shall never be compelled to professe or practise any more Indeede you are very liberall but it hath beene often said already and you have said it yourselfe that the Independant men cannot of conscience communicate with you before a Reformation Therefore if this be the medium you have betweene leaving the Land and toleration even that they must submit to your worship you might have bequeathed this Legacie to some that would accept of it and give you thankes for the Lord hath bequeathed liberty to his Sâ—â—â—ts and Servants and hath purchased it at a deare price even that they should be freed from all Egyptian bondage and hath commanded them to stand fast in that liberty wherein he hath made them free and whether they must obey Gods commands or your counsell be judge your selfe Sixâ—â—y you say If the former answers will not satisfie but that they must needs be in a Church fellowship as now they are then you say you you will shew them away according to their owne principles of a visible Church For answer whereof I must tell you that fallacies and false conclusions upon mens words without bringing their conditions can satisfie no man concerning the matter in hand but it may satisfie all men of your evill minde that you still labour to turne away the truth as it may appeare by the way you here have chalked them out to walke in which is That because it is their principle say you that a few Saints joyned together in a Covenant have power therefore you imply that there should never neede a greater addition to them * This you may know crosseth the whole Scripture as the very prophesies of the Church under the New Testament that is to say that a little one shall become a thousand and a great one a strong Nation Esay 60. 22. and that they should grow up as the Calves of the stall Mal. 4. 2. not onely in greatnesse but also in number and especially when the Lambe overcommeth that is even when the Saints overcome by the blood of the Lambe and the word of their testimony not esteeming their lives to the death Therefore you might have saved your schollership when you went about to teach them to make Churches in houses and also to come to your Church to the Word Prayer and Sacraments for they have not so learned Christ to come one part of the day to worship before the Idols and to stand another part before God for if they should doe so the Lord saith Ezek. 44. 13. they should not come neere him neither to doe the office of the Priest nor to come neare the holy things but that they should beare their shame and their abomination Further you might have saved your labour in teaching them to make family Church es for God hath directed them what to doe in their Families And it is not the practise of Gods people to shut out from their prayers and holy duties them that are of their Family for God gave his Law to Abraham for another end namely that he should teach it his Family and by so doing traine up members in his family for Christs Family Further you might have spared your care taken to shew a way for maintenance for those men among us that are schollers bred for if you can find no better maintenance for them then to come and be Lecturers amongst you as you would have them and to live in hope of the gifts of the dead that is no good provision for for want of those shooes men may goe long barefooted seeing they cannot by your owne confession doe that of conscience till there be a Reformation But you might rather have perswaded your Parish Priests to have bequeathed some of their large revenewes unto them