as against any other I could alledge that of those Popes who have gone farthest none has defined any thing concerning these matters in those circumstances which even those Divines who attribute most to them require as necessary to make it believed or ex Cathedra as they call it But I conceive it needless it seeming to me sufficiently evident by what has been alledged already that our Faith and Church are not to suffer by these exorbitancies and commonwealths can secure themselves by their own power But Friend the case is otherwise with you Your men alledge Scripture for these errors and engage your Rule of Faith and how the honest Protestant who in this case undoubtedly has the true sense of Scripture on his side can handsomely disengage his Church from a scandal to which is pretended the authority of her Rule is difficult to apprehend If people come not to their journies end who refuse to take the right road it is no wonder to any nor blame to the Guide whose office it is to shew men the right way but cannot make them follow it But your men pretend they keep the way your Church shews them to Truth and yet arrive at Error And when Error and Truth pretend both to the same Rule and that the Rule of your Church I should think your Church deeply concerned to consider by what means it may be decided which is Heresie and which Faith In short our erring men since they pretend not our Churches Rule can never fix their errors upon the Church nor advance them to Faith nor beyond the degree of opinions Yours since they pretend to the very Rule owned by you must needs till a certain way of proceeding upon that Rule or interpreting Scripture be setled render it doubtful to those who truly desire to be guided by your Rule which of the two is the doctrine of Christ and are therefore wonderfully more dangerous to the Church than ours Farther abstracting from Passion or Interest which may be equal in both ours because they have no firmer ground than their own deductions are more reclaimeable and may at any time relinquish their errors without offering violence to their Faith and Religion Yours because they pretend to your Rule of Faith are apt to mistake their misguided Fancies for Religion as we have seen in the late confusions the title of Saints appropriated to wicked men and so become fixt and unalterable in them for which reason they are also much more dangerous to the State as they were before to the Church In this inequality of cases I do not know the Church of England has proceeded so far as ours in the Council of Constance or condemned these Errors by any Authentic Censure though in my opinion it were proper for her to consider how much her Rule upon which depends her own stability is concerned in them Mean time instead of reproaching our several Churches with the errors of their several Members It were I think more to purpose I am sure more charitable to endeavour that all Errors might be taken away on both sides that by one Faith and one Baptism we may all serve our one Lord and God and reunite into one Holy and Immaculate and Glorious Church free from those spots and wrinkles which our unhappy Divisions have too too much and too long brought upon her This is what the desire to obey your commands has suggested to me in answer to your Letter You will pardon the length of it which as it is beyond my expectation so 't is beyond my power to remedy and give me leave to hope it may prevail with you not to abate either your Charity to my Religion or kindness to Your very humble Servant THE THIRD and FOURTH OF THE CONTROVERSIAL LETTERS OR THE GRAND Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth and the true Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of ENGLAND The other of the Church of ROME LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun and Ship in St. Pauls Church-Yard MDCLXXIII FRIEND FOR all the thanks I owe you and all the Complements 't were fit I made you take this acknowledgment that you have answered beyond my expectation and this assurance that I will consider very seriously what you say and make such use of it that you shall have cause to think your labour not unprofitably spent But yet I cannot but complain of the secresie which you enjoyn me I for my part am so well satisfied of your way of writing that I cannot but think others will be so too and that this shiness of yours is injurious both to your self and the World and because unjust commands are not to be obey'd let me tell you frankly I mean not to confine your Papers to my closet They shall be seen if it please God by more Eyes then mine but yet not to fall absolutely out with you I will divide stakes and so communicate what you write that there shall be no suspition of the Writer This I promise you very faithfully and to do it with more exactness lest your name should be discovered I engage my self to conceal my own Then if John a nokes get all the praise from you the fault be upon your own Head For the rest to deal plainly with you I find my self I know not how Things will not settle with me and though out of the mouth of a good Protestant I believe what you say would have past good reason yet when I reflect you are a Papist that is if you will pardon my Freedom of a crafty insinuating Generation I have still a kind of grumbling This Papist marrs all and though I think my self as free from prejudice as other men I find t' wil not do I can not but fear being trapan'd You have I must confess said many things very well and more then I thought you had been allow'd to say but you are reserv'd still 'T is true you give Reasons for your reservedness which I can not answer but whether it be that my plain nature would have every thing as plain as my self or that curiosity be like Love where too much reason is thought blameable I could wish in this occasion you had us'd less Reason and more Freedom Speak out the whole truth man and be a good Protestant otherwise own the whole Falshood and be a Papist of the first magnitude I fear your half Catholicks are in as bad a Case as Montaltos half Sinners who shall be damn'd for not sinning enough For my part if I would be a Papist I would be a Papist to purpose Hang this motly Religion this half Rome half Geneva Faith which gets a man neither credit nor security I would be as good a Catholick as Bellarmin for his heart if I would be one and if I thought your Catholick Faith would save me I would take order mine
said for them but since they do not their part is to do their Duty in what concerns them to do and rely upon God for the rest Then for the Contradiction between the two Laws The Divine Law saies Bellarmin obliges us to preserve the True Religion Human only to have this or that Man for King Where is the Contradiction say they Cannot I keep this Man for my King and keep my Religion too A body would â—kink that this is very possible to be done The contrary to that Divine Law is You shall not preserve the True Religion and if any Human Law command this Disobey freely in God's name for Aequum est obedire Deo magis quam Hominibus But while you disobey this Law which you cannot without offending God obey do not refuse to acknowledge your Prince and obey him there where you offend God if you do not obey Again the contrary to vvhat he calls the Human Law is You shall not have this or that Man for Prince or which is all one You shall not obey him in just Commands Bellarmin has not yet produc'd any Command of the Divine Law which saies this nor vvill till Rebellion become a part of Gods Law In fine Whoever persists to put a contradiction betwixt Fearing God and Honouring the King will be Confuted by all the Bells in the Parish Lastly Whereas he makes it only by Human Law that this or that Man is King they Reply vvhat you have more at large in a former Letter That He becomes King as the Pope becomes Pope by Human means but when he once is so Obedience to him is by Divine Right and so if there be any contradiction betwixt Preserving our Religion and Obeying our Prince the Divine Law contradicts it self For as Preservation of Religion is Divine Law so Obedience to Princes is Divine Law too If Bellarmin be not pleas'd vvith these Answers they leave him to make better himself retorting as they are very good at Reparty his Argument against a scandalous Pope for he say they exposes Vertue to evident danger For such as the Ruler such will be the Inhabitants And Gods Law is to be observ'd when 't is contrary to Human Law and Gods Law obliges us to preserve Vertue and 't is by Human Law only that this or that Man is Pope c. And so we come to another Argument from the parity betwixt an Infidel Prince and an Infidel Husband whom the Apostle allows the Faithful Wife to leave and therefore Why are not the Faithful People as free in respect of an Infidel Prince In Answer to this they Dispute several things with exactness enough and examining the particular Cases where and how far and why Divorce is lawful find several Disparities and several Reasons why the Argument concludes not But to leave those Considerations which are not without their perplexity this Reply of theirs seems very plain Bring say they a Permission from the Apostle for a Subject to desert his Prince as plain as this is for a Woman to leave her Husband and we vvill acknowledge the case is equal The Apostle plainly derogates from the general Rule and brings an Exception wherein the Law of Marriage binds not He that was so careful of Private concerns cannot be imagined unmindful of Public and greater Had he known any Exception from the general Rule of Obeying Princes it is not to be suspected he would conceal it and testifie more care for Private Families than Commonwealths So that the Argument amounts to this We are free from the Law in cases where the Law is dispenst with therefore we are free likewise where 't is not dispenst with Again say they the Woman is only then free when the Man refuses to live vvith her for if he stay S. Paul wishes her to stay vvith him Now if any Prince refuses to Govern his People unless they vvill become Infidels like himself I think they will allow the People are not obliged to turn Infidels for his sake but may get them another in case he leave them But if the King will stay with his People since the Woman is to stay with her Husband who vvill be with her they think the very parity concludes the People oblig'd to stay vvith their Prince Otherwise the parity stands in this manner Even as the Faithful Woman is not to leave her Unbelieving Husband who vvill continue vvith her even so the Believing People are to leave their Unbelieving King who vvill stay vvith them Or even as the Believing Woman is free from an Unbelieving Husband who casts her off even so the Beleiving People are free from an Unbelieving King vvho does not cast them off Which methinks are something unlike for Parities The next Argument is of great esteem with Bellarmin He made it in his Book De Rom. Pont. and repeats it in Tortus and urges it largely against Barklay This it is Princes are receiv'd into the Church with this either express or tacit bargain to submit their Scepters to Christ and preserve and defend their Religion and this under penalty of forfeiting their Kingdoms if they fail Wherefore if they become Heretics or an obstacle to Religion they may without injury be Judged and Deposed by the Church For he is not fit to receive the Sacrament of Baptism who is not disposed to serve Christ and lose all he has for his sake according to S. Luke 14. If any one comes to me and hates not Father and Mother c. he cannot be my Disciple And the Church would err too grievously if She admitted a King who without Controul would cherish Heresie and overthrow Religion C. 24. Thus Argues Bellarmin in Rom. Pont. But against Barklay more largely Let us imagine saies he an Infidel Prince desirous to be receiv'd into the Church should speak in this manner I desire to become a fellow Citizen with the Saints by Baptism and promiss to submit my Scepter to Christ and defend his Church to my power and never to break my holy purpose Nevertheless If I happen to break my Word and become an Heretic or Apostate or Pagan I will not be punisht with Temporal Punishments either by the Church or its President or any but Christ and if the Chief Governour of the Church separate me from the Communion of the Faithful I will nevertheless that the Faithful Sons of the Church continue Faithful Subjects to me and may not be absolved from the bond of their Obedience by any Such a King saies he if Barklay think fit for Baptism wise men would laugh at him For if a man should desire to be incorporated into any City and should protest that if he had a mind to betray that City he would not be judged by the Magistrates of it but by the King who dwells far off every body would laugh at him And truly He that according to the Gospel ought be prepar'd to lose his life for the Faith of Christ ought more to be
with which if they happen to play they have great luck if they do not burn their wings You are at your ease and may freely talk at pleasure secur'd by the Laws and at defiance with the Pope The case is otherwise with us who believing of the Pope as we do and subject to the Laws as we are can neither be without respect for him nor apprehension of them and though we could speak even clearness it self 't is all to nothing but we fall foul on one of the Rocks Notwithstanding since I ow much to your friendship I would gladly preserve if I can your good opinion both to my self and Religion of which you speak so charitably and nothing like an enemy and besides would not be guilty of her shame by confessing she has nothing to answer nor of my own by continuing in an unjustifiable communion I obey you with this request that you will take care to preserve me from the hazard I run by serving you and let this Paper be seen by none but such as mean as well as you and I. First then I am so far from thinking our friendship shockt by your free proceeding that I take my self and Religion both obliged to your candor and wish from my heart I may as well justifie her as you have your friendship And for my Church there are so few who look upon her with equal eyes that this pity of yours as just and charitable as it is is yet more rare and I cannot see it without as much acknowledgment as satisfaction And yet as strongly as you discourse every where I think you have reason no where more than in this particular For so it is if we say nothing and when we are often and loudly provoked to speak still hold our tongues we have a bad cause and such for which nothing can be said if we speak we are insolent and cannot keep our selves quiet when we are well And after all 't is the Combat betwixt the Knight and the Giant still as you have rightly observed But the world is the world where Reason as much our nature as it is cannot hinder but Chance and Interest and Passion and several humours to which men are subject will have their share in the conduct of things Wherefore without complaining farther of what complaints are not likely to remedy I think it best to address my self to my defence And the first point of it shall be to declare I mean not to defend any of those opinions which you have alledged with so much sharpness for in truth I think them not defensible and that there is not more sharpness than justice in what you say Not but that to own who would take the pains to peruse the Authors you have cited some of those Sayings possibly might not appear so ugly as they do in your Paper For there is a great difference betwixt words taken as they lie in the whole Context and singled out from their fellows who might peradventure to some of them afford some tolerable explication But besides that I conceive that labour not necessary for my purpose I have no kindness at all for the Doctrines and not enough for the Authors to prevail with me to undertake it I have heard from those who meddle with Controversie that their greatest difficulty often is to preserve the credit of private men whom because they are of the same Communion they are so unwilling to affront that they have much ado to preserve the Church from the contagion of their Errors As my nature is a little more blunt I have no such difference for them and think it but just that Qui pergit quae volt dicere ea quae non volt audiat Let them shift for themselves on Gods name or let those defend them who approve their Maximes For my part I hate them heartily and think it but a preposterous Charity to be so tender for the credit of those who betray the credit of the Church Allowing then for reason all you say against those opinions of which I think as ill as you can do I yet conceive your reason fails in the inference you draw from them That true Religion cannot teach Doctrines inconsistent with Government That a Commonwealth is not safe in which such Doctrines are either tolerated or conniv'd at that is when they come to be instilled and get credit with the People otherwise while they remain in the Schools I should think the danger not very great for Kingdoms are not overturn'd by Syllogisms Farther if you please that the Doctrines you have produced are such Doctrines I freely grant you But that our Church does teach such Doctrines I deny and notwithstanding all you have said if you still preserve your unbyass'd candor hope to make the contrary very evident And first because with you I think my authority may signifie something for you know I will not tell you a lye you shall permit me to say something of my own knowledge I was born you know of Catholic Parents bred up in Catholic Religion and have lived some part of my time in Catholic Countries I have been at their Schools heard their Catechisms their Sermons their Discourses and by the care of my Friends and some pains of my own think few of my condition more fully instructed in that Religion I assure you faithfully I was never taught any such Doctrine nor ever heard the Church taught it On the contrary I have been bred up in this belief that obedience to my King is not only truly a duty but a duty truly required by Religion and this perswasion was so well setled in my heart that I yet remember how great and surprizing a horror the late Rebellion caused in me when I was too young to judge otherwise of it or any thing else but as I found it contrary to the sentiments which had been instilled into me I have heard indeed of the opinions you cite but as of extravagancies of bold men and when I came to the age of judging of things my self found that though they were held by men living in Communion with the Church they had yet no warrant from the Church to hold them nor any better ground than their own mistaking reasonings and so continued to detest them by judgment as I did before by Education Now this answer which it seems you foresaw you have endeavoured to prevent making use your self of an Artifice of Rhetoric to bar me the assistance of Logic for you would perswade me that to distinguish the material Church from the formal or the man from the Churchman is an idle airy nicety which is of no use in the World But truly one of us is much mistaken for I think on the contrary that nothing is more obvious nothing more familiar let me add nor more necessary and that even to your material world as you call it which without such distinctions would quickly run into confusion The World is made up of men
thought necessary Learned Men should be constrain'd by Oaths and fear of Penalties terribilibus comminationibus to declare their thoughts of this matter Possibly Interest may have had some share in this backwardness Men of this sort of Learning belong most to the Church and may peradventure consider that If they displease him who carries the Keys he may perhaps make use of them to shut the Gates of Ecclesiastical preferment Besides they have been diligent to discountenance and suppress all Books written against the Popes Power so that a Private man cannot write without the hazard of a Censure on his Book and possibly on his Person These I think are the true Reasons I am sure they are good ones of the backwardness which you phansie proceeds from a prohibition of the Church and with a great deal of injustice and no truth heighten into malice and the execrable hypocrisie of teaching two Religions one to be published the other conceal'd and I know not what when all this while I assure you there is no such thing as a Prohibition of the Church at least that I know of for any man to speak what he thinks what Fisher mentions was a private Order made amongst the Jesuites and concerns only themselves but wise men are not forward to speak what may turn to their prejudice nor quiet men to interpose in the concerns of higher and the Highest Powers as I conceive they are not therefore blameable However it be He who from the Sence of those who have vvrit would infer the Sence of all Learned Men concludes in my opinion very fallaciously Those who Write not and whose Sence we know not being much more Numerous and every jot as Learned as those who Write But to let that pass this Doctrine has found a different reception in the world The French as their natures are frank and open without more adoe plainly deny it and besides a great many reiterated Arrest of Parliament have solemnly condemn'd it in all their Universities In other Countries they are more reserv'd and rather oppose the Execution of the Power than the Power it self They let the Pope and any for him talk as they please but when it comes to Practice it alwaies proves unjust in that particular and I believe alwaies shall do In Brabant the Custom is That all Bulls are understood of course to be Subreptitious till they be approv'd by the Prince In other places they have other expedients but as far as I see by several means they all compass the same end and admit no more than they think stands with their Profit Only the French bluntly tell the Pope You cannot others use softer words but their Actions say You shall not farther than we think fit Now for the Opinion of the Canonists since Divines universally reject it I may without more adoe reject it with them Of the other it may be enquir'd Whether it be of Faith and Whether it be True which are very different Questions And for Faith I positively and freely disclaim it both because the Maintainers of it themselves confess it is not and though some are unwary enough to heighten it to that degree yet they are but few and their rashness is generally condemn'd as ill grounded and carried too far And besides I see the contrary is openly maintain'd by as numerous and considerable a Member as any belongs to the Catholic Church and while at Rome they condemn Withrington and Barklay at Paris they condemn Bellarmin and Suarez The Pope and the rest of the vvorld knows and sees this and yet Communicate freely with them and account them all the while good Catholics Which is plainly to acknowledge it is no point of Faith in which they differ for if it were they could no more Communicate with them than with Arrius or Pelagius neither is any consideration of their Power or concern of Policy able to justifie or dispense with acknowledging him a Catholic who persists to maintain an Heresie All the difficulty is Whether it be true or no. And who am I that I should undertake to dogmatize in an Age so Antidogmatical and where no vanity is thought greater than that of Dogmatizing and this in a Question which has exercised the Wit and Learning of Men esteem'd so great that to oppose them may chance be counted Arrogance The most I can do is to tell you what I think and what I think is even in my own judgment so inconsiderable that I think it a great deal better to play the Historian than the Disputer and hope you will be satisfied if I inform you as much as I know of this Question and relate the Arguments hitherto produc'd on both sides at least as far as I am acquainted with them and leave you to judge as you see cause By this means as you will have all the Information I can give you so none can rationally blame me for barely relating what every body either knows already or may know that will take the pains to look upon what is publickly and every where extant But before I begin the Arguments it will not be amiss to look a little into the Origin of this Dispute and consider when and how it came into the vvorld Gregory the VIIth was the first that brought it on the Stage Till his time the Independent Power of Princes was never questioned They not only quietly dispos'd of Civil matters without controll except where any notorious Injustice happened and then both Popes and other zealous Prelates took the liberty to reprehend and sometimes Excommunicate them but had no small share in Ecclesiastical matters so far as to make Laws concerning them to invest the Persons duly chosen to Benefices and confirm the Election even of Popes themselves which was not held valid without their approbation Take it in the words of Onuphrius no enemy to this Pope Onuph de var. Creat Rom. Pont. L. 4. Though formerly the Bishops of Rome were respected as the Heads of Christian Religion the Vicars of Christ and Successors of Peter yet their Authority extended no farther than either to assert or maintain the Doctrines of Faith For the rest they were subject to the Emperours all things were done by Their appointment Themselves were Created by them neither did the Pope dare to judge or determine any thing concerning them Gregory the VIIth was the First of all the Bishops of Rome who relying on the Arms of the Normans and Wealth of the Countess Mathildis a Woman of great Power in Italy and inflam'd by the discord of the Princes of Germany opprest with Civil Wars contemning contrary to the Custom of his Predecessours the Imperial Power and Authority after he had obtain'd the Pontificate durst not only Excommunicate but deprive the Emperour by whom he had been if not Elected at least Confirm'd of his Kingdom and Empire A thing to that Age unheard of for as for the Fables which go about of Arcadius and Anastius and Leo the
of the Canonists opinion which made you disclaim it but because that wickedness came clad in sence and people could understand it But the same wickedness disguis'd in non-sence is a Darling So that your Pique was not to the wicked but the sence make it but non-sensical enough and let it be never so wicked you are for it I bar Sophistry too and unintelligible Subtleties Let your Schollers keep their riddle me riddle me to themselves I shall understand the Talmud as soon as what you call Terms of Art meaning I suppose the Art of keeping things from being understood The Art of talking so that no body shall know whether you say I or No. But I understand what 't is to Command and Obey And to bring the whole to a short plain Issue I ask If it should happen the Pope should command you to disobey your King and the King command you to disobey the Pope by whom will you stand And I expect an Answer as plain as my Question I declare too because I will not turn our dispute into a controversie of Religion nor meddle with the Popes Spiritual power that I mean only of Temporal commands of such commands wherein you have no reason nor doubt but you ought obey the King but only because the Pope commands the contrary Give me a direct Answer to this for I tell you I bar Indirects and the business is done If you will obey your King you are an honest man and have disclaim'd Bellarmin as well as the Canonists If the Pope you must make out if you can how he is a good Subject who refuses to obey his Prince The business being now in a very narrow compass and perceptible by every body there I leave it with this Advertisement that upon your Answer depend the thoughts I shall have of your Church or if you will men of your Church According as you Answer I or No I shall believe you consistent or not consistent with Government There I began and there I end I hope you will give me no occasion to chang my thoughts of you for truly 't would grieve me if I could not with as much satisfaction to my Judgment as Inclination own the title of Your c. FRIEND ME thinks you deal roughly for a Friend If I were as brisk as you here would be brave doings What a bustle do you keep with me with Bellarmine and the Church and all because I desir'd to keep my thoughts to my self Truly I thought silence no such hainous crime I have known many repent of speaking but few of holding their tongues But for my self you may deal as you please twenty to one but I may at some time or other find occasion to cry quittance with you and then I expect you should allow me the liberty you take But Bellarmine what harm his he done you to incur your indignation so highly Is he the only man who maintains the Indirect Power And if he were can you not disprove him fairly and let your bitterness alone The Church too Pray what is she concern'd whether I do as you would have me or no Can no Member of her Communion displease you but she presently must be brought in She is this and she is that if I do not what I have no mind and for all your earnestness I fear no reason to do But you have got an eye of me and you follow it You know I value the Church above my self and that I will never agree she should be ill thought of if I can help it Indeed I was in hope to have cut the Thread and answered so as might please you and displease no body else But since 't will not be and that there is no way to clear her from those blemishes which your capricious Jealousie has cast upon her but by forcing my own inclinations I think my self oblig'd rather to expose my self to other mens censures then leave her expos'd to yours If any man dislike my resolution I entreat him for one moment to make my case his own and consider what he would do so loudly and so smartly challenged and what duty requires he should do when on the one side the Churches reputation is at stake on the other the quiet it may be credit of particulars If he doubt which side to take I must needs think he has less respect for his mother then becomes a good child For my part I am perswaded otherwise Well! But you will not be satisfi'd unless I speak plainly Would I knew whether you will be satisfi'd if I do For I tell you truly I begin to be as jealous of your earnestness as you of my reservedness If reason would have satisfi'd you I think you might have been satisfi'd before this time However I will venture to make one experiment more and try what I can do with you by and by If you be in earnest and that plain dealing will do it I shall prevail at last For I will tell you and that very plainly more then you ask You shall know not only what I think but why I have been thus backward to tell you what I think I will frankly discover all my policy which makes you so merry peradventure to be as much laught at for my simplicity but however you shall have no cause of jealousie of what I harbour in my breast when you know all I harbour there But do not think I mean to be so merry as you are I am in no such pleasant humour and think the matter a little too serious If you had spared some of your mirth I believe 't would have been ne'r a whit the worse The meat might have been altogether as good if the sauce had been less tart But to our business You are still harping upon the Church A worm of Jealousie is crept in and will not out You are still suspicious she forbids people from dealing freely in these matters I told you there was no such thing and I tell you so again at least that I know and I tell you besides That had there been such a thing and I known it I would have dealt as sincerely with you as Fisher with King James told you so at first and never medled so much as I have done But if you will know the true cause of my reservedness know that you your self have a great share in it You are all on fire because I say not presently what pleases you I suppose you do not imagine but there are men of tempers as hot as you whom that will displease which pleases you Besides the Question is of a particular nature It has been can vast heretofore with much animosity The fire is not yet dead It flames not indeed at present because the fuel of occasion is taken away but the heat lyes rak't up in mens hearts and would easily break out again I would not for all the world be he who should blow this heat into a new flame But for
be at and shall never be so senceless to be diverted by vvhat he saies from considering vvhat he vvould do I tell you once for all we would fight as freely against the Pope as the Turk if he come like a Turk in Arms and you may easily believe me for all Nations do it vvithout difficulty when there is occasion French Spaniards Italians themselves have all had their turns Marry if he come like a Pope to direct our feet in the ways of that peace which Christ bequeath'd as a legacy to his Church I for my part vvill fall down at his feet and kiss them too laugh you as much as you vvill In the mean time I vvould advise you as you do me to let Politics alone and not go about to perswade the vvorld Heresie was the cause of all the danger of 88 vvhen if there had been no such thing there had not been one Ship or one Souldier the less Had Queen Elizabeth been Inquisition-proof as much as King Philip he vvould have done just as he did For 't was the enemy of Spain and friend to Holland not the enemy to the Pope vvith vvhom he had the quarrel Had the Pope himself been in her place the Pope had been invaded as she vvas And this I say not altogether by guess for both he and his Father actually did invade the Pope and his Father take him prisoner too But so much for your Politics and my reservedness of which I have now given you the very reason and told you the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth As for Bellarmin I wish you had spared some of your smartness He was a great man and if you would undertake to answer all that he has writ peradventure you would go neer to find him so Nay do but write on any chuse what you think the easiest Subject as much as he has done of intricate matters and if you do not somewhere or other give occasion of as much sport as you have made with him I shall much marvel A great piece of Mastery it is out of so many Volumes where 't is impossible the Author should alwaies be equally attentive to pick out a few lines and turn them to Burlesque If I had a mind to take his part against you perhaps I could make it appear He is not altogether such an Ass as you would make him even in this question For example You quarrel with him because as you say he forgets to explain what he means by Indirect where he first uses the word As if those against whom he then writ did not understand it well enough and need no explication His notion pleases not you and you say it is not the Notion of the world Suppose it be not He writ to that part of the World which understood it in his Notion If they understand one another what is' t to you and me what words they use Again you say He makes no use of that word in the whole course of his Arguments What is it to purpose whether he did or no It may be he had no occasion But if you consider his Arguments you will find they proceed all upon what he understands by Indirect Power and that they are all along opposite to the Canonists who maintain in the Pope a power properly Temporal whereas he places in him only a Spiritual Power and then endeavours by those Arguments to prove that supream Spiritual Power may in vertue of its being so extend also in some cases to Temporals which is in his language to be Indirect and was so understood by those against whom he intended his Arguments So that he is so far from forgetting as you imagine his Indirect that he makes use of it and nothing else More I could say in his behalf if I had a mind But I mean not to engage for him He has friends a great deal more learned then I who can speak for him when they think convenient As you have ordered the matter I have enough to do to quit my self However I mean now to endeavour it and quit my self so if I can that I may hear no more of you For I am very weary of being baited thus long at one stake and will come no more there if I can help it I tell you then I will stand by your Parliament-Doctrine as much as you or any of his Majesties Subjects and take it unkindly at your hands you should surmise I would do otherwise That Parliament was a Catholick-Parliament if you remember and might have put you in mind that Catholicks may be both good Catholicks and good Englishmen 'T is true there may be Traytors of them and those Traytors may disguise their Treason with the pretence of Religion as who would not get as hand some a vizard as he could for so ugly a face But 't is plain that their Religion has no inconsistency with their duty to their King and Countrey when we see their Religion was no hindrance to them for providing for the liberties of their Countrey against the encroachments of pretended Religior On the contrary I conceive it more shameful and more wicked for us who persevere in the same Faith to degenerate from the same Loyalty then for men of other perswasions But to go on I disavow and detest the wicked and pernicious Doctrine which teaches the deposition of Kings whom I acknowledge to hold independently of God and will be ready on all occasions to lay down my life in confirmation of this Truth and when you please will give under my hand that 't is new false erroneous contrary to the Word of God and several ways mischievous besides and will never maintain any opinion to the contrary I know not how you will relish this way of speaking but I can assure you 't is a way in which wiser men then I have walk't before me But to give a direct Answer to the Question to which you have reduc't the whole and which by the way I am very glad you have confin'd to Temporals for I do not mean to be perswaded out of my Religion by your earnestness I answer thus That I will at all times and in all occasions stand by my King against whatsoever Power and under whatsoever pretences And because you are particularly jealous of the Pope I declare I will stand by my Soveraign and believe it my duty so to do against the Pope as firmly as against any other as being fully perswaded he has no Power Direct or Indirect Virtual or Formal or by whatever names it has or may be call'd to depose or dispossess him of all or any part of his Dominions or authorise his Subjects not to perform faithful obedience to him And I absolutely disclaim all Doctrine to the contrary by whomsoever maintained and under whatsoever disguises And if you distrust my word I will pawn you my hopes of salvation and swear all this in as ample manner as you can devise
and men of several qualities The same person is both a man and a Rich and Proud man a Powerful and an Angry man and we see Wit and Ambition Goodness and Ignorance Learning and Fantasticalness often coupled together and a hundred several mixtures of several qualities united all in one material Man Now consider what fine work there would quickly be if every one of these useless formalities as you call them must be chargeable with all actions if Riches must be taken away because the Rich Proud man has scorn'd and Power because the Powerful Angry man has wronged his Neighbour if Wit must bear the blame of Ambition and Goodnesâ— the miscarriages of Ignorance and Learning the Errors of Fantasticalness Reason is our very Nature and yet I think there are few to whom Nature has not given Logick enough to see that we do not always act as reasonable and who are not learned enough to separate the Animal from the Man To speak yet plainer a severe Father a harsh Master do they not sometimes use their Children and Scholars unreasonably and so as utterly to spoil them A corrupt Judge does he not pervert Justice and render those Tribunals from whence men expect the relief of Injuries the seats of Oppression What then Must the Father and the Master and the Judge be condemned for the faults of the Man and none of these powers left in the world because they have been and daily are abused I think you and every body will confess that this were unreasonable and yet your Argument spares none of them For 't is all one to Children and Pleaders if they be materially opprest and misus'd whether this be done by the fault of the Office or the Officer and small comfort it is to tell them that their Judges and Masters acted in their case as passionate men not as Judges and Masters for they remain opprest still and the formality relieves them not Kings themselves are men too and not exempt from the failings of Mortality Our Country indeed has this amongst other things to thank God for that she has been extraordinarily blest with good Kings but History affords examples of such elsewhere as have been unjust and cruel and tyrannical And if you will not allow the King and his sacred Function to be free from the aspersions to which the Man is sometimes liable let me tell you Friend your Doctrine will be more dangerous and more inconsistent with Government than the Papal pretensions Now as in all these cases and a hundred more which happen every day and every where Nature teaches us to examine the formality from whence the mischief proceeds and endeavour to provide against that and let the rest alone so I think it ought to be in the case of the Church We condemn not Learning because some learned men are fantastical nor Riches for the pride of rich men why must the Church be condemned for the fault of Church-men Authority and Goodness and Wit are not blemisht by the errors of those who have them the Power of Fathers and Masters and Judges is and must be preserved in the world however Severity and Covetise daily abuse it and if this be so in all the rest of the world can you think it reasonable the Church alone should be exempted from the general rule and be more answerable for the faults of those who live in her communion than Authority for the faults of bad men in Authority The faults indeed should be taken away but the Church let alone And truly had your Reformation as you call it gone no farther than to retrench abuses such as these you mention and who knows but there may be other I might peradventure have call'd it so too But instead of abuses to take away Office and all and defie the supreme Pastor of the Church and alter the whole face of Religion there by your favour you reformed a little too far For the same Logic which makes the Church responsible for the errors of Church-men makes the Office responsible for the faults of the Officer and that is to take all Offices out of the world where men will be men and liable to be reduced from the path of vertue in spight of all preventions possible in such a nature as ours I hope by this time that distinction does not appear so airy and useless as you imagined you shall permit me to add that possibly you are no less concern'd in it than We. For we are not the only men amongst whom Principles inconsistent with Government may be found Remember who they were that ruin'd England by the late War and were guilty of things which to dilate were as unsavoury as needless They were so far from Popery these men that fear of Popery was a chief Engine employed in the mischief Sad fate by the way and preposterous wisdom to destroy our selves for fear of being destroyed and run into Fire and the Sword for fear of Ink and Paper Neither is England the only example Scotland and the Netherlands and Germany and France have felt lamentable effects from the Doctrines of men who would take it for an imputation to have learnt any thing of the Pope So that it is very plain that the Papal is neither the only nor the only dangerous King-deposing power in the world 'T is as plain that these men are neither Infidels nor of our Church so that you must even exercise your Pity too and take them into yours Or if pity will not prevail I hope at least you will take care so to defend your Allegiance a not to overthrow your Church And unless you make your Creed consist but of Eleven Articles I see not how you can disown the Communion of these men for 't will be a strange Catholic Church which communicates neither with the Church of Rome nor her Adversaries Wherefore if your Argument be good and Religion must answer for the faults of those who profess it there is no remedy but Princes to be secure must banish all Religion and People turn Atheists to be honest men and good Subjects Now whatever answer you would give to one who should charge such wicked principles upon your Church because they are maintained by numerous and learned and famous men amongst you the same I give for mine I believe for all your Pique to formalities you would go near to distinguish your Church or Believing men from the Erring men and say you communicate with the Men but not with the Errors So you shall permit me to say for mine and this farther that whatever you say you must of necessity either condemn your selves or absolve us 'T is not that the force of your Argument drives me to that way of answer which I have chosen it being easie to shew the Churches innocence even in your own way and without the help of your disliked formalities Your Argument in short is this Learned men in the Church hold wicked Doctrines therefore the Church
to satifie them all And as the Schools go now it is not hard to say almost any thing As men are of several tempers I will not deny but some may be truly perswaded of your Doctrines and defend them with an upright conscience thinking that to exalt the Pope is truly advantageous to Religion and beneficial to the World But I believe you will not find many so qualified Those you have named are some the Popes own Subjects most Italians or Spaniards upon whom He is known to have particular influence and if we judge that in this exalting the Pope they might have an eye to the preferment of themselves I think it will be no rash judgment Of latter times those have appeared the chief sticklers in this quarrel who are thought to have the greatest dependance upon Rome So that of all produced and produceable in behalf of those opinions I deceive my self if the number be not shamefully inconsiderable against whom there lies not a just suspicion of interest and of whom it may not reasonably be judged that Hopes or Fears or something besides pure Conscience swayed their judgments And Interest you know is a just exception against a Witness in all Courts As for private men what would you have them do Consider that all Catholics look upon the Pope as the chief Bishop in God's Church and supreme Pastor of the whole Flock If they hear any thing said over-lashingly of him can it be expected they should be forward to speak what they think til a due occasion urges them Or have less respect for him than common civilitie uses to every body For when any thing is said advantageous to a person with whom we converse if we believe it not we keep our thoughts to our selves and think it rudeness to oppose it to their faces Besides as I said at first this medling of private men with the concern of Princes is the Flies playing with the Candle Withrington quite burnt his wings Walsh has fairly sing'd them and if people learn wariness by the harms of other men I conceive they are not blameable As frightful and threatning as the Idea is which you have made of this danger no Prince that I know thinks it great enough to deserve that they should interpose and I think the man very foolishly wise who will pretend to understand their concerns better than themselves or better know what is fit to be done People of our private Sphere see but one thing Princes see that one thing in likelihood better than we and a hundred more of which we never dream and till they stir themselves for private men to obtrude their politic Ignorance upon them is so far from laudable that it is well if it be pardonable neither will their forwardness signifie more than an over busie diligence and peradventure saucy unquietness The old Monks wise counsel Sinere res vadere ut vadunt is as necesiary in the world as a Cloyster Besides for English Catholics in particular they have somewhat more reason to keep silence while their speaking is sure to be discountenanced on the one side and not sure to be protected on the other You may perceive by Caron's Collection that Catholicks are so much mealy mouthed men towards the Pope when there is fit occasion to speak what they think and God forbid that Forreiners should be better Subjects than English men I am sure they were Catholics who declared in Parliament that the imperial Crown of England is and at all times has been free from all subjection to the Pope And provided the Statute of Praemunire against such abuses as were then found inconvenient And they were Catholicks who refused to repeal this Statute in the days of Queen Mary when other Laws made against the Popes Authority were taken away But if you will have a touchstone of the fidelity of English Catholics look a little upon the year 88. The Pope had stretched his Authority as far as it would go and proceeded to Excommunication Deposition and Absolution of his Subjects from Obedience to her down right Commands to assist her Enemies and this Authority was backt by the Power of a great Prince in their thought and language invincible Besides the Title of the Queen born in time of a Marriage declared lawfull by the Pope was not free from dispute which carried the inclination of Catholics to the Title of Scotland since happily introduced and which I hope will long happily continue and this was if I mistake not the true reason of the jealousie and severity of those times against them Notwithstanding the unusual concurrence of so many and so great temptations They stood firm in their Allegeance and both our own and forrein Writers testifie that neither the subtil Arts of the Politic Spaniard or the enforcement of the Popes Authority could prevail to make any Party here but that the most learned and esteemed of the Priests by a solemn and authentic Writing acknowledged the Queen notwithstanding she was excommunicated and deposed by name to have still the same Authority and power as before and as much as any of her Predecessors and the Layty chearfully and universally offered to hazard their lives in defence of their Prince and Country and that as private Souldiers ther being too much suspicion in the jealousie of those times to pretend to commands In fine the Spaniards were so ill satisfied with them that the Duke of Medina Admiral in that expedition at his return plainly told the Dutchess of Feria an English Woman of the Family of the Dormirs that had he prevailed no difference had been made betwixt Catholics and others more than what the Sword could have found Of later times the whole Nation is obliged to bless God for the happy fidelity of some of them and we had still been groaning under our late miseries if this traiterous Religion had not principled even poor men into a fidelity stronger than the temptation of Gold And 't is not like the men who act thus would refuse to speak in fit occasion Things have been written even since the return of his Sacred Majesty which have been peradventure more zealous than seasonable but however which sufficiently discover the inclination of Catholics to say all that can be expected with reason from them when the conjuncture is proper In the mean time to consider the Dilemma you so earnestly recommend to me I must tell you it concludes not We are inexcusable say you if we renounce not those Positions when without injury to the Churches Authority or our own conscience we may Why so F A is there no excuse for an action but this that 't is unlawful People before they do any thing use to consider the Why as well as the What and examine not only whether the action be allowable but whether it be convenient But not to insist on this I will offer you a fair bargain Do you your part and I will do mine make it reasonable make
it fitting to do what you desire and I will do it And that you may be satisfied I am in earnest I promise you faithfully to renounce these Positions as fully and solemnly as you can desire whenever you shall make it come to pass that so to do is my duty and not onely a bare gratification of your curiosity and in the mean time assure you I heartily abhor them and alwayes did The Child lyes now at your door F. A If you truly desire the thing should be done provide a good Why we should do it For my own part I tell you truly I shall take it very unkindly if after this I pasâ— still undistinguisht among those whom you think deserve suspicion and distrust and since you have urged me to this Declaration conceiving you are obliged to take care that it be not wholly useless Pray let me put another Dilemma to you Either your credit is great enough to preserve us from the inconvenience of speaking plainly or it is not If not we are blameless who are not forward to run into inconveniences to no purpose if it be 't is you are blameable who urge us to an inconvenience which you can but will not remedy Mean while to be ill lookt upon and ill treated if we make our selves appear honest Catholics and not so much as have protection for being Catholics is to be acquitted of Burglary and found guilty of Felony Methinks it is something unreasonoble to make the maintenance of pernicious Doctrines the ground why we should be liable to punishment and keep us every jot as liable if we disclaim them Not but that we are very sensible of our present quiet and bless and pray for the merciful Authors of it But yet the Law is the Law still And it is very uneasie to have no better security either of Estate or Life than a bare stop to the course of the Law which may be removed at pleasure For my own part as I am but John Porter so I hope 't is a modest and pardonable ambition if I wish to continue so with security And since an extravagance in others which I cannot help may make you jealous even of my Frock and Cords I shall gladly Endeavour to cure that jealousie by any remedies which Reason can prescribe or Honesty take But till you can procure thus much favour to urge a testimony of honesty so ungrateful to him to whom we owe and must pay a fitting respect and when we have given it to continue us still in the condition of Knaves is hard in it self and harder from you who have profest so often that you punish not for Religion but Treason Religion indeed is the most comfortable cause of suffering and that which if I must suffer I would chuse But yet suffering is suffering still let the cause be what it will And though I esteem Patience very much and desire the Vertue with all my heart I know not why I should desire the occasions to exercise it and believe it is better not to need live Pigeons than to have them Coming to review what I have writ I find the hasty course of my pen intent upon the main body of the discourse has past over several branches which deserve to be particularly taken notice of As when you say that so the mischievous Doctrines be allowed it is all one whether they be allowed by the material Church or the formal To which I reply the difference is very great For were the Church truly engaged for them there were no remedy but either to own the Doctrines or disown rhe Church But if she be not engaged for them as she is not one may detest the Doctrines as I do and yet remain in the Church Again when you make Church and State equivalent I conceive the difference appears sufficiently in what has been said State signifies a body of men united under such a Government and such Laws and what the Governours do the State is said to do for to the Governour it belongs to command in public concerns to the rest to obey Church signifies a body of men living according to Doctrines and Laws establisht by Christ and because as men they cannot but have an act upon other Principles too those actions only and Principles which are derived from Christ can properly belong to the Church in the rest they are to be lookt upon as men not as faithful Besides you have produced some few who have the boldness to entitle those Errors as gross as they are to Faith and make the contrary Heresie To which I answer There are a great many strange things in the world and peradventure few stranger than that men should get the reputation of learning and yet not know so much as what Faith is or at least the means by which it has come to us The Regia Via as Councils call it of Faith is both plain in it self and plainly recorded in the Monuments of the Church and that people should think to come to it by their own little by-ways and make Faith of that which is publicly and unreprovably contradicted by the far greatest part of the present Church and has no footsteps at all in Antiquity and yet pass for learned men is a thing I have more disposition to admire than unriddle farther then in the short hint I gave of the abuse of that term by a wrong application If ought else have scap'd my observation by what I have said I presume you will easily guess what I would say to it Give me Leave to end with reflecting a little upon the difference there is betwixt these opinions maintained by the Adversarys of the Church of Rome and maintained by her Members For to flatter neither side Iliacos intra muros peccatur extra You communicate with deposing-principled men as well as we though thanks be to God neither true Protestant nor understanding Catholic communicate with the Principles Now for our Church I have shewn why this extravagance of some of her members is not imputable to her and hope you perceive how unreasonable it is that she would answer for the deviations of those who will not walk in her way nor make use of her Rule Some Popes indeed have behaved themselves otherwise than I wish they had But since they are Princes as well as Bishops I conceive it will not be thought strange if all great men are not Saints and if Humane Policy and a desire to encrease their greatness sway with them as with other Princes If they attempt upon the rights of others Kings I hope know well enough that they bear not the Sword in vain and can as well tell how to defend themselves and their Subjects from wrongs incident from them as from other men and sure I am that Catholics are so far from being restrained by their Religion that it obliges them to stand by their respective Sovereings in defence of his just Rights against the Pope as effectually
I believe those who are of a contrary judgment will be convinc'd by what I have said neither did I go about to convince them My business was to satisfie you not to dogmatize And I hope you will perceive your Argument so answer'd that if those unquiet Spirits of fear and diffidence continue still to hant you the blame is not to be imputed to me Of two propositions which you assum'd to fix a power Paramount in the Pope upon our Faith I have shew'd a Catholick may safely deny either of both 'T is at his choice to take either way and any one does his business If he will deny a temporal Regality in Christ the difficulty is cut up by the root since a Vicar can not with any shadow of pretence challenge more then was in the Principal himself If not willing to meddle with that question he will take the other way and affirm that whatever power Chrit had he left only Spiritual to Peter and his Successors the difficulty is as fully cleared A Catholick take my word may unreprovably hold either or both and that you may have better security against your fears then my word can give you I have shewed you both maintain'd by those whom Catholicks are not permitted to reprove If all this be not enough to quiet your suspicious let me add that if you consider well you will find that of all men the Principles of Catholciks can least endure the contrary Doctrine Ask of your Fore-fathers walk in the antient Paths avoid novelties and the like are Maximes so known and universally receieved amongst them that who is known to contradict them is known so far to swerve from the acknowledged grounds of Catholick Religion Now when the authority of unquestionable antiquity is of the one side and on the other that of Authors both late and few and of no extraordinary credit a Catholick who knows what he does can so little doubt which part to take that I think he is not excusable if he so much as doubt or at least not otherwise then as zeal is excused by blindness None have that veneration for antiquity and Fathers which Catholicks pretend for they look upon them as the men who have begot them in the Gospel from whence they give them the name of Fathers as the most considerable Pillars of the Church as the principal Persons on whose attestation the Rule of Faith and Stability of Religion depends After the sacred Books of Scripture written by Divine Inspiration to which no writing of Man can be equall'd nor so much as compar'd we Reverence in the next place the Writings of the Fathers which we think useful too and the most useful of any to the understanding of the Scripture of which we hold them the best Interpreters We universally blame those of other Communions for preferring the obscurity of private interpretations before the clear light of Tradition And all these things are known and acknowledg'd by every body Wherefore since the great Lights of the Church St. Agustin and St. Hierom and St. Cyril and St John Chrysostom and St. Bernard and the rest shine clearly out and with a joint consent unanimously conspire into the same Doctrine none are so blamable as Catholicks if they oppose it And such men as Comitolus and Sermarinus and the like put into the contrary ballance weigh so little that t is shameful even that they should enter in The truth is the world goes otherwise then sharp-sighted men would think it should or could else t is not easie to conceive how it should be possible there should be found amongst those of our principles who should stand in opposition to the Fathers All that can be said is that worldly policy sometimes makes a little too bold with Christian simplicity and that preposterous zeal is very blind and therefore a very dangerous Guide And I shall take the liberty to tell you that understanding Catholicks who consider the way they take see if it were followed in other things it would mine Catholick Religion and that the men indeed perhaps by the priviledge of well meaning ignorance are Catholicks but the way is not a Catholick way Thanks be to God there are not many who walk in it and those who do I believe consider not what they do For sure I am that knowingly to sleight the Reverence due to Sacred Antiquity and set up new Masters in opposition to the Fathers of Christianity and Doctors of the Church agrees very ill with a Catholiek Spirit In fine as men will be men and God must make the World another thing then it is if we expect that all should do as they ought you will find among Catholicks some who hold the contrary Opinion but none who hold this reprovable And this I say the more confidently because I mistake very much if it be reprovable even amongst the Jesuits themselves who yet are thought the greatest Favourers of the Papal power At least I know they cannot reprove it without reproving their own best and most famous Authors Read Bellarmin de Rom. Pontif. the fourth Chapter of the fifth Book and Maldonat upon 27 Mat. and see if they do not both expresly hold and strongly prove the Doctrine of the Fathers and so far that the latter says people would make Christ a temporal King whether he will or no c. against his express declaration and that before a Court of Justice They are too long to be transcribed But if you take the pains to read them since that is safe enough from being reproved which there is no body to reprove I hope your suspicions will be at quiet However I think it but seasonable that I should and be permitted after so long a journey to rest Yours c. FINIS ERRATA PAge 3. line 13. read particular l. 36. r. were p. 7. l. 5. r. you cite p. 8. l. 1. for he r. his l. 5. r. enterfere l. 32. may r. my p. 10. l. 37. r. no extraordinary p. 17. l. 29. r. the Servants ear p. 18. l. 26. r. because he defiled l. 33. r. yet he gave l. 35. r. Rabanus p. 21. l. 6. r. dogmatically l. 9. r. any principle l. 11. r. his side p. 22. l. 8. r. suppose l. 28. r. branches p. 23. l. 22. r. Kings p. 24. l. 16. r. penetrat p. 27. l. 22. dele to l. 28. r. were disposed p. 30. l. 18. r. his answer signify'd l. ult r. resolvedness p. 31. l. 28. r. Creation By. The Fifth and Sixth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR THE Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun and at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1673. FRIEND I Must confess I am something better at ease at least I
know not where to fix my jealousie I cannot say but the cause you assign may have had some influence upon me for to hear men spoken against perpetually and universally and not to think there is some fire to all that smoke is hardly possible Yet let me tell you I think you have no great reason to complain for if I mistake not you owe a good number of your Proselites to this very cause and believe that of those who come over to you far the greatest part have been wrought upon by this perswasion That you are ill represented When you truly are so as I cannot deny but sometimes you are 't is no hard matter for you to shew it to candid people whom nature has so disposed to favour persons wrongfully traduc'd that this bad Idea where of you complain makes you at last sufficient amends There is such a charm in injur'd Innocence that I am very confident it brings you in more Converts than all your Arguments If some be hardned others are gain'd and peradventure fair play were more for the Interest of both sides However it be I acknowledge I was my self something mistaken in you and not so well acquainted as I thought with your Religion where things I perceive go otherwise than I apprehended I thought there had been an Oraculous kind of lustre in this power of the Popes which had either dazled you into a blindness of not seeing ought against it or aw'd you into a fear of saying what you saw if you saw any thing and for ought I perceive you are as cleer sighted as other men and speak bold truths as freely I must confess we are a little out when we impute blindness to you at least I 'm sure you saw more in this particular than I. But hark you Friend while you discourse of one thing my thoughts insensibly carry me to another I begin to conceit this Tradition of yours which makes such a noise and passes for such a bugbear may prove less frightful than our apprehensions make it And I cannot tell whether the Pope has not as much reason to be jealous of it as Protestants For methinks if that be made the Test of Doctrines and nothing impos'd upon our belief but upon the warrant of the constantly conspiring attestation of all Ages This deposing power of the Popes which from its inconsistency with Civil government I so much abhorr'd must needs be excluded from the Articles of belief and Protestans eas'd of a great deal of pains in pulling down that which your own beloved Principle pulls down to their hands For ought I know it may do as good service upon other occasions however I avow to you I am more friends with it than ever I was and think Protestants have no reason to look unkindly upon a Principle which takes their part so much in a question of such importance I wish with all my heart it were lookt into more throughly for I mistake extreamly if it would not cut off a number of those things of which we complain and though peradventure it be no discretion to speak so freely to you reduce things to that pass that while you labour to bring us over to you That very instrument which you use to that purpose may force you over to us But rather than such a thing should happen I presume the Pope would disown it and after he has us'd it as long as it would serve his turn turn enemy to It as soon as he finds It turn enemy to him But to tell you truly I am something in a better humour for Tradition because you speak of Scripture with that reverence which is fit and which pleases me so much the more by how much the less I expected it from you For you know how ill you hear pardon the pedantry of the phrase for failing in the respect due to that sacred pledge of the Divine Love which the fear or rather consciousness how cleerly those undimmable lights would discover the abundance of tares you have sown amongst the wheat of the Gospel makes you shut up from the Vulgar and exclude from the Test and Judge of Controversies And after this to profess they are divinely inspir'd and that no other writings can be compar'd to them is a thing which pleases indeed but surprizes me too Do you forget or have you a mind to condemn your self For the Spirit of God must certainly be Gods best Interpreter and where that is to be had as in books divinely inspir'd the Divine Spirit must certaiâ—ly be to seek another Judge is to refuse him now by whom we must one day be judg'd whether we will or no and should do well not to provoke in the mean time by contempt To tell you my thoughts freely If you would give a little more to Scripture than you do and we to Tradition I think things might be better betwixt us For you pretend to hate Novelties as I am sure we do All our whole Reformation being nothing else but the rejecting what you have introduc'd Let us have but Gods Law pure as he gave it and free from the mixture of erroneous additions or diminutions and we have no more to desire And if I understand Tradition rightly and that it signifie what Vincentius Lirinensis has long since delivered for the test of Sound doctrine viz. what has been held ever and every where and by all methinks you should like Novelties no more than We for novelty and this cannot consist together and there needs no farther confutation of novelty but only to shew that 't is a Novelty Which if it be so in the name of God how fell we out We all know that Christ was our only Lawgiver and that upon the observation of the Law he gave us all our hopes of Salvation depend that since him there has been no new Law-maker and whoever teaches any doctrine contrary to what was taught by him is long since declar'd Anathema by the Apostle that profane Novelties are to be avoided and those who broach or abett them are in the words of the Psalmist wicked men who tell us stories but not as thy Law O God And while we both agree in this how is it possible we should disagree in ought and what magick is it which thus sets up Altar against Altar and divides the seamless coat of Christ In the darkness of Barbarism and Ignorance things might more easily be obtruded upon us but in an age shining with so much wit and learning and so cleer sighted in Antiquity methinks it is no such hard matter to find out at least which is the Novelty and then if Vincentius say true we know without more ado which is the Truth Seriously Friend I am at a strange loss and cannot possibly unriddle this Mystery But my zeal transports me and I have almost forgot what we were talking of To return to your Letter It is I must confess long enough yet I wish it had been
especially since many Doctors thought so as well as he For 't is one thing saies he in Tortus to bring Examples of Kings saies he of Popes say they and another to prove their Power and Authority Secondly They Answer that if it be a good Proof that a thing may lawfully be done which has been done before the Wickedest things in the world may be prov'd Lawful People may lawfully Rebel Public and Private Faith may be broken Commonwealths may be overturn'd c. for all these things have been done And without more adoe Popes may be Depos'd by Emperours as well as they by Popes for that has been done too Lastly and with a little more smartness They say this way of Proof plainly begs the Question and assumes the very Point in Dispute Bellarmin affirms and his Adversaries deny the Pope may justly Depose Princes now to Argue He has Depos'd them therefore He justly may assumes That what he has done is Just which is the very Point they Contest with him and therefore think it had been something shorter and altogether as much to purpose to have said 'T is Just because 't is Just. Every body knows Popes have both challenged and used a Deposing Power but every body is not satisfied that this Power is justly due to him Bellarmin undertakes to prove it is and brings for an Argument That he has us'd it which no body denies and would have that conclude That therefore he justly may which if his Adversaries had thought a good consequence they had not put him to the trouble of making it For they knew and acknowledged the Antecedent enough before But they think the Popes did amiss who did so and if barely saying that they did the thing be proving they had right to do it they confess they are in the wrong but if it be not Bellarmin is so and should have considered that barely to say his Tenet over is a kind of Proof which takes with none but very good natur'd People and as far as I see his Adversaries are a little more stubborn I am so weary with long Writing that I must intreat your permission to refer what remains to another opportunity I will hope I have said enough to quiet your suspicions and am sure I have said so much that I need some quiet my self and must take leave after so long a Journey to rest a while Your c. The Ninth and Tenth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1674. FRIEND I Expect that which you say remains with much impatience and t is only to tell you so that I now write for I do not intend to give you my thoughts of your last till I receive your next Only let me tell you it wambles in my stomack I know not how and works not kindly but because your next possibly may fully settle me I will not yet complain But methinks this next opportunity of yours is long a coming Have you been sick or diverted with business of greater consequence then clearing your self and your Church from an aspersion of which I take no joy to tell you the suspicions are more pregnant than I wish they were For 't is undeniable that Tenets inconsistent with Government are maintained among you You say they belong not to Religion and that indeed is something but not enough This may serve in some measure to justify your Religion but nothing at all to clear your selves For what matter is it whether your Religion be innocent if all that profess it are guilty though upon another account If you think these Tenets true you will be apt to practise them at one time or other although they do not belong to Religion Religion indeed is the strongest Principle of action but not the only one It is no part of Religion that two and three make five but yet if you do think to pay a debt of five pounds with twice forty shillings no body will deal with you And if all the Papists in England adhere to these Doctrines whether this adhesion of theirs proceed from Religion or any other motion the men will be unsafe and irreconcileable to the security of their Country let the Religion be what it will But if there be any who think them false it were convenient both for the satisfaction of their Prince and Fellow subjects and the interest of the thinkers People should know who those any are We cannot know your thoughts unless you acquaint us with them And because we have reason to believe that some do hold them and no reason to believe of any particular man but he is of the number till he disclaim them what can we do but involve you all guilty and innocent if there be any such in the same condemnation of diffidence You tell me the French plainly and openly condemn them The honester men they and the more shame for some body that there should be more honesty found in France then England You should do as they do though t' were but to be in the mode In all their airy toys their Feathers their Perukes their Pantaloons you can follow them fast enough But when they play the men and set you examples of prais-worthy actions there you are content to be out of fashion as if it were an honor to be as light as they and a shame to be as wise But pray what security is it to England that they are good subjects in France If they were knaves all over the rest of the world and we all honest at home it were a great deal better for us than that they should be honest abroad and we knaves at home I perceive indeed by what they do that you tell me true when you say these Tenets are no points of your Faith But then methinks you should have the less difficulty to disclaim them Unless perhaps you think them true which if you do either make them out to be consistent with goverment or you will not be consistent your self I tell you plainly I shall think ill of you if you think well of these Doctrâ—nes unless you can shew them innocent and safe which as far as I perceive you do not go about to do and when you offer at it may I believe with as much hope of success offer at the Philosophers stone In other Countrys you tell me They are more reserved and will not say you can not but you shall not And I believe you have liv'd in those other Countrys and suck't their Polities with their Air. But for my part I must confess I am for the mode once in my life and would be of the French fashion in this
case in any Age nor ever thought of by any of his Councils save only that of Lateran To fancy them all into one Council is well enough but to fancy them doing there what when they are assembled in reality they dreamt not of has something too much of fancy Then this favouring of Hereticks is a term so general that I know not how far it extends but I think Princes make alliances as they are guided by interest of State and amuse not themselves with these speculations of Schoolmen The French never bogled to make leagues with Princes of different Religions which though it has been sometimes cast in their dish they left not for all that to do what they thought fitting 'T is now come about and the House of Austria does what heretofore they blam'd in the French and the Pope is much bely'd if he quarrel with them for it It is not much more boldness and rashness to stand upon our terms with his Councils being such as they are then to condemn to excommunication and deposition such as are capable of it all this part of the world For sure Representatives are not so much more considerable than the Bodies themselves But I rove as well as Bellarmin Before I speak to the to the Council it will not be amiss to observe that the case of the German Emperors has something not common with other absolute Princes and the cases of Frederic 2 and Henry 4 something not common with other Emperors For 't is well observ'd by John Barclay that since the translation of the Empire to the West at least since the devolution from the posterity of Charles the Great to the Germans Popes have pretended a particular superiority over those Emperors Clem. 5. Clementina Vinc. de Jurejur Adrian Ep. ad Fred. 7. One of them in a certain Canon will needs have the Oath which Emperors take at their Coronation to be properly an Oath of Fidelity Another taxes the Emperor of insolence and arrogance for setting his name before the Popes as being contrary to the fidelity promist and sworn to S. Peter himself In consequence whereof there are who maintain the Pope may depose the Emperor for this reason because he acknowledges his Temporalties from the Pope and in plain terms that the Empire and Emperor are subject to the Pope I have nothing to do with the justice of this pretence let the Germans look to that who I suppose are not all of the same opinion but 't is manifest Popes have made this claim and if they act in consequence of what they publickly maintain and treat as subjects those whom they took to be so and deal with them as supream Lords with their Inferiors and Vassals as it is not to be wondred at so the case is quite different from that of absolute Princes over whom there is no pretence of superiority Again this Frederick had positively sworn by Embassadors particularly authoriz'd to stand to the Judgment of the Pope and Church Henry 4. had done as much in person at Canossa upon the recalling of his first sentence How far this submission of theirs subjected those two Emperors to the censures of the Church at least how far it might be thought to subject them I cannot say But certainly such an obligation makes their condition different from those who never entred into such bonds It will not be amiss likewise to reflect a little upon the temper of those times As far as I can get a Prospect of them they were less critical then ours and more led by nature than speculation When a mischief hapned they thought 't was fit there should be a remedy and as drowning men think not of the trespass and whether the twig they catch at grow on their neighbours ground if the temporal Power wrong'd them had recourse to the spiritual and if the spiritual to the temporal So the Emperor Otho was sollicited to relieve them against John 12 and did so causing him to be depos'd and a better chosen in his room And every body thought he did well even Bellarmin himself though withal he thinks the action not so regular because that Pope was a very wicked man Besides the Pope was believ'd the Father and Head of all Christians and upon that account obedience due to him from all How far and to what kind of actions this obedience extended they seem to have so little considered that Greg. 7. himself answers those who were not satisfi'd with his hasty sentence Plat. in Greg. 7. as if it were all one to have power over all and to have all Power It was this Council of Lyons which made men begin to look about them and consider the matter more deeply For then says M. Paris both Princes and prelates foreseeing the consequences were exceedingly troubled For though Frederick himself did many ways deserve to be lessened and depriv'd of all honor yet to be depos'd by Papal authority would raise the Church of Rome to that height and pride that abusing the Grace of God they might fall to deposing even innocent and good Princes and sooner Prelates and this for slight causes or at least threaten to depose them c. But whatever they thought afterwards when they reflected the Pope was a man as well as his Neighbours and might abuse an unlimited power at the Council of Lyons I conceive they were more intent to consider who had right of his side then with what kind of penalty they were impour'd to chastise the wrong The Emperors Agents were heard and notwithstanding all they could say in his behalf and they spoke freely enough He was in the opinion of the whole Council manifestly guilty Even those who favour'd him at first confest he deserv'd to be depos'd And if the rest thought no injustice done him who had but what he deserved I think the wonder is not great However it be to answer more directly divers things they say They question the concurrence of the Council and think Bellarmin a little more confident then became him to talk of the approbation and consent and praise of the whole Council when the Decree is so far from authorizing his confidence that on the contrary it affords just suspicion of the contrary For whereas the usual stile of conciliar Acts and elsewhere us'd even in this very Council runs in this manner sacro approbante Concilio 't is changed here into this sacro praesente Concilio which they think not done without a particular reason Again Historians mention the horror and astonishment of the by-standers at the pronouncing the sentence effects not likely to proceed from an Act of their own In fine several exceptions they take But the best answer in my opinion is afforded by Bellarmin himself He teaches elsewhere that in Councils the greatest part of the Acts belong not to Faith Lib. 2. de Concil c. 12. neither Disputations nor Reasons nor Explications but the bare Decrees themselves and those not all but
that I conceive my breath too faint and inconsiderable However as I love not to meddle with hot men at all so I would gladly be guilty of so much policy as not to provoke hot men upon a hot subject Whether I say I or No one hot side will be apt to take offence Wherefore I thought it the best way to hold my tongue Now your fantastical curiosity is not satisfi'd with this but is as hot upon my silence as others may be upon my speaking And would perswade me you play the Friend all the while I hope you will send me the next time to stir a nest of Wasps and make me believe it a point of Friendship However I assure you the Church has nothing to do with my silence neither do I or ever did apprehend any thing from her The Church has other imployment then to look so low as I am and besides God forbid that Innocence should not be safety enough for any of her Communion All that I apprehend is the heat of private men of those with whom I am like to meet and converse and from whom I may chance hear twenty cross Questions 'T would vex me to have a man come to me and say You Sir Pray how long have you taught Divinity or in what Vniversity taken degrees who presume to handle so freely men in reverence for their learning with all Divines and all Vniversities The world is at a fine pass when a little pert confidence shall set up every pidler in learning against those who have spent their lives in nothing else Again You pass for a Catholick and acknowledge at least in words That the Pope is supream Pastor 'T is done like a dutiful Child to go about to lessen your Father The next time you write I hope you will leave him no power at all I fore see the next piece will be of Antichrist and then there is hopes you may in time proceed to the three Impostors 'T is an Heretical spirit this and beware of it I may be in a froward humor when I hear this and it may be return a froward answer and then we fall out and he tells every body he meets I am in a dangerous condition tottering upon the very brink of perdition and 't is great luck if I scape the precipice Every body who hears this said and that confidently and gravely will not hear what I can say for my self or if they did they are but few with whom the solemn outside will not carry it against a better reason then I shall be able to produce And then I pass for dangerous or busie or foolish as they please to frame my character My Friends begin to look askew at me and all the sweetness of conversation and innocent pleasure of hearty Friendship is lost This would be wonderful uneasie to me and if it should happen as 't is like enough I should whatever you do think it a great inconvenience In fine every man has his humor and mine is not to make an enemy of so much as a Cobler if I could keep him my Friend This is the reason why I so readily diclaim'd the Canonists because I meet with none who are like to give me any trouble about them And this is the reason why I was more reserv'd in the other opinion because I may meet with this trouble I hope you will not think this a reflexion upon my communion as if they were more troublesom to their Neighbours then other folks Men are men of all communions and hot men are hot men and such are impatient that any perswasion they have wedded should be contradicted This is all the disquiet I foresaw and apprehended and the great Policy with which you keep so much ado And if it be Policy to think my thought quietly to my self as I elsewhere told you and not fall out with every man who thinks otherwise nor give any man occasion to fall out with me to think I have no commission to Reform every thing I dislike but that there may and will be errours in the world let me do what I can I avow to you I would have been a Politician if you would have let me and am very sorry you did not But now we are upon Politics let me tell you one thing by the way You are a meer Mortal at Politics as well as your Neighbours What work do you make with the business of 88 and how slily do you make it pass for an effect only of Heresie If you do in earnest believe so I can tell who 's the Sir Pol. But sure you understand things better then not to know Pretence is one thing and Cause another 'T is true Heresie was pretended and it may be was a partial cause too of as much as the Pope did But do you think the King of Spain was at all that charge purely upon the account of Zeal Sure you do not think him so great a Saint Or if you do all the world knows 't was Interest of State not Religion which rais'd that Army and set out that Armada The Queen stood in the way of his great thoughts and so crost his designs upon other mens dominions that she made him unable to recover his own This obstacle to his ambition he had a mind to remove and Religion was no bad pretence among his own Subjects vvho vvere and still are exceeding Zealous but he so little valued it himself that he would not so much as own it And this a better Politician then you or I Grotius in his History of the Low Countries has observed Some saies he would have had the war proclaimed by a Herald but others thought the right of claim from the Popes sentence would make out but a lame Title And these it seems were the wiser and carried it See now what conceit the Spaniards themselves had of your Politic Cause and no better had we in England For though Mendoza had vainly boasted of I know not what affection of some principal men here towards the Spaniard in all likelyhood to ingratiate his own diligence yet whatever his thoughts were saies Grotius again it appeared true afterwards that however English Catholics might differ in Religion there was none of them so imprudent as to trust their Lives and Fortunes to the undistinguishing sword of a Forreign Conquerour And yet they were at that time as much affected to the Pope as any people in the world and thought as highly of his power And for all that they did not think he had power to dispossess their Soveraign and distinguisht rightly betwixt Pretence of Religion and Reason of Interest I can assure you we are of the same mind still and know an Invader let him be never so much a Catholic is an Invader and let him pretend vvhat he vvill means to enslave those he Invades and alwaies will He that comes vvith a Cross in his mouth and a Sword in his hand vve know vvhat he vvould
a condemnation without more ado Neither did they well know at first on what bottom to fix This Indirect came in afterwards As far as can be guest they thought because the Pope was Superiour over all Christians he might therefore come and all Christians any thine Since the business coming to be debated they cast about for waies to maintain it and the Indirect way pleases most though it be not yet well setled some thinking it as much too little for the Pope as others too much But whatever they think I fear both the one and the other is ruinous to the Church For neither can pretend to be believed but for some reason and this reason since it cannot be the same for which we believe other points of Faith there being manifestly no such thing as uninterrupted delivery in the case must be something else which as well as It must pretend a vertue of inducing belief And that being a Rule of Faith which has power to settle Faith here is a new Rule of Faith brought into the Church and with it all the Incertainâ—y and all the confusion blamed in the most extravagant Sect and this even by her own confession who thinks her Rule is the only means to avoid that incâ—rtainly and that confusion This Rule is manifestly discarded by a new one For she cannot with any face pretend all she teaches was delivered to her if it be pin'd upon her that she teaches what was not dâ—livered and if She lose the pretence to all she will keep it to none since it cannot appear but if she have once deserted her Rule she has don 't oftner And then farewel Church Once take away the Rule and the Church must of necessity go after She has no solid ground of Authority but the stediness of her Faith no stediness of Faith but the stediness of her Rule break that once and there is neither Authority nor Faith nor will within a while be Church left So that in good earnest I do not think the malice of all her profest enemies could â—ver do the Church so much harm as the zeal of her unwary Friends At least for my part break but the Chain once and I know no more any certain way to Heaven than the veryest Enthusiast among all those Sectaries who rove blindly for want of a sure Guide and should find my self as much at a loss That any thing must be believ'd but what was taught by Christ or that any thing can be known to be taught by him but by the constant belief and practise of intermediate ages is what a Catholic should neither say nor endure to hear for it manifestly takes away Divine from Faith and all the advantage we profess in our method above others to come to Faith leaving us as much benighted and as much to seek and as small hopes of success as we object to those whom we think stray most and are most in the dark Wherefore salvo meliori as far as my short prospect reaches To bring Deposing Faith into the Church is a ready way to depose the Church I cannot tell whether I should more wonder or grieve but I am sure I do both to see men so intent upon the maintenance of an Opinion which they have espoused that they forget the honour and safety of the Church and to observe a certain supercilious gravity with which they labour to discourse these things into Faith and Religion should so far impose upon the world that they do not discover thâ—y are quite contrary and destructive to both But no doubt there are enough who see all that is to be seen but if they be no more forward then I to say all they think they are in my conceit the wiser By the favour of your earnestness it is no commendable disposition in private men to turn Reformers on every occasion and when they see any thing amiss step presently in and make a bustle in what concerns them not Let those who Govern the world and shall severely answer for those miscarriages of which They are the cause look to their duty Ours is to live quietly and unoffensively and trust God 's Providence Your importunity has carryed me farther than I intended But you have now your will of me and know I for my part think the not-deposing doctrine is the truly Catholic doctrinâ— Did I think otherwise all your importunities and all considerations in the world besides should not perswade me to it I hope you now find I said true when I told you my thoughts of this matter were such as bâ—came a good Christian and a good Subject and afford you no occasion to change yours if you had any good of Your c. FINIS The Thirteenth and Fourteenth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin tooke at the Gun and at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1675. FRIEND YOU had sav'd your self and me some trouble if your last had been your first I almost despair'd of doing any good upon you and perceive that exsculpere verum out of one of your humour is one of the hardest tasks in the world But since 't is come at last I regret not my own pains and for yours it was in your power to have spar'd them But yet I have not done with you The Pope is a crafty Gentleman and has more strings to his Bow then one Shut the door never so fast it is hard to keep him out If St. Peters Keys will not open the lock He has St. Pauls sword to cut it off Not that I apprehend any great danger from downright fighting 'T is a Trick he shews as seldom as he can And he has reason for Kings overmatch him at that weapon But Justice has a sword too and that so sharp that I should be very sorry to see it in his hands Now that there may be justice without deriving it from Pasce Oves or Dabo Claves and that it may belong to him as well as others and by the same means And that he actually has heretofore and may when he please again set on foot pretensions upon this Title to part perhaps all his Majesties Dominions is something too evident to be deny'd and of too great importance to be neglected It is a thing which has long disquieted me with uneasy thoughts but I must freely avow to you I was never so sensible of the danger as since I read the Considerations of present Concernment You are so much concerned in that Book that I must needs suppose you have seen it and observ'd how much may be replyed to what you have said to me But I am for the present so intent upon what 's before that I cannot reflect
case For if the pretences be good Protestants cannot avoid them if bad Papists will not admit them Right is Right to Protestants as well as Papists and no Right has the same no force on us as you Popery would not hinder us from pleading Prescription nor Prescription from having its efficacy It sounds just as if he should say Let us keep the Pope out right or wrong for if he should come in it may chance be sound he has a Right which we are resolved not to acknowledge whether he have it or no. Such a discourse I take to be dishonourable to his own Religion as if they car'd not to do unjustly and hinder other folks of their due dangerous to the Commonwealth and supposing a falsity too palpable to admit of supposition namely that the Pope may have a Right to England But this by the by and for an exception to the fitness not substance of his discourse For though I think it not proper to his purpose and every jot as strong against themselves as us yet the difficulty as he has manag'd it truly with more strength then I have seen it urg'd elsewhere both deserves and requires an answer I hope we shall no longer pass for men blindly addicted to the Pope and his Interest when the world sees a Protestant take the Popes part and a Papist the Kings against him As tenacious as we are of what we believe his due I trust it will be acknowledged we believe nothing due which may keep us from being true to the Interest of our Country when all the discouragements we receive from our Country hinder us not from standing faithfully by it in opposition to his undue pretences whensoever and by whomsoever and howsoever urg'd And these are so urg'd that no Arguments with which I have had occasion to meddle of his profest Champions have given me so much to do But respiting this matter a little while I will take the liberty to alter your order and begin at the latter end of your letter because what you say there is of another nature from what goes before and things of a kind do best together You object that I am a single and which is more a conceal'd man and all I say or do inconsiderable And 't is true that I am inconsiderable enough all wayes whether in learning or credit Notwithstanding I thought my self able to answer your Objections If you thought it not considerable whether they were answered or no you did ill to put me to so much fruitless pains I thought you had sufficiently considered why you engaged me to write and lookt no farther then to answer as truly and plainly as I could To tell me at last that all my pains are to no purpose is a very unexpected objection and to which all I can answer is to complain of you for putting an inconsiderable employment upon me who could have spent that inconsiderably taken up time with some more satisfaction and it may be advantage to my self As for being single if it were so I should hope there is no such urgent necessity that a man should be punisht because he has no company To say as you do that the Eye of the Law cannot look on particulars is something surprizing when we see them found out and brought to punishment every day and why particulars may not with as much ease be indemnifi'd as punisht I cannot comprehend 'T is a plain case that the care of the Law does extend to particulars and in other cases provides for the security of every single man whose guilt excludes him not from their protection Me thinks 't is very hard that Peter must suffer because he is not Paul too or because Paul will not think as Peter does therefore Peter too must go to pot and two be punisht because one offends But to give you satisfaction in this point according to your own fancy consider that Merit and Demerit are general things and proper objects of the care of Laws Encouragement of the one and Discouragement of the other are the hinges on which Government turns Law-makers without numbring heads and counting how many come under one or the other branch frame their Laws in general and proposing Hopes and Fears to make them chuse right leave Particulars to the choice of their own wayes Let the same Providence be extended to this case which if it were not to others Commonwealths would hardly subsist and I have no more to desire of you I hope 't were no disgrace to the Law if I were the only man who reap't benefit by it But indeed I am not single I have heretofore told you there are more of my mind and I tell you again you shall find it so if people once may freely say what they think But while you involve us all guilty or not guilty in the same mass of perdition while we are sure to be no jot better for speaking and not sure but we may be much worse by adding dissatisfactions among our selves to the severities we fear from you me thinks you should not complain of our silence This is to tye up a mans tongue and then blame him for saying nothing Pray let us see some good likely to come of speaking either to you or our selves or some body before you oblige us to expose our selves to more harm then we are subject to already No Friend 'T is not Fear of being disown'd by my fellows which conceals me but Fear I shall be no better Fear I may be worse lookt on by you and if you will permit me to say it Grief for having that cause of Fear Not but that I know well enough that every one of my Communion is not of my perswasion in this point of the Popes power But you know I have often declared I desire favour only for those who are How many there be truly I know not nor will use any endeavours to know For I fear you would not take it well if any of us should go about to make an estimate of the strength of a party There may be more there may be fewer But the fewer there be the less reason I should think to exclude them from your protection since evidently there can be no danger from a few How I fear if we should prove more then you imagin you would then object number to us with a little mroe speciousness and a great deal more concern Since every body desires to have as few Enemies as they can while you will not let us be friends I cannot believe you much in earnest when you object fewness to us You say this because it came in your way but otherwise would be better pleas'd if I mistake not if we were fewer then we are Indeed you urge not this fewness as dangerous but as inconsiderable But why should Innocence be thought so inconsiderable a thing Innocence is Innocence in one man as well as a thousand and should not be cast carelesly away
Interest of every Commonwealth that all the members be heartily concern'd for the maintenance of Law because it is the main security of Liberty and Property and all worldly goods But in our case the Law instead of securing threatens our Liberties and Properties and Lives nor can we be concerned in the preservation of it without being unconcerned in the preservation of our selves For my life I cannot imagin by what Policy you are guided to lay upon never so inconsiderable a party a necessity so strong as that of self-preservation to wish an alteration of Law The sword of Justice should be the Protection and comfort of Good men and a terrour only to the bad and certainly you do not think us all such I believe our greatest fault is that you apprehend us desirous of innovation But pray can you with reason blame us if we desire to live less uneasily I am very certain there are none in the Nation more heartily affected to the liberty and all advantages of it than we are by inclination and should more appear by all justifiable actions if you would let us live with any comfort in it Again can it be for your interest to force part of the Subjects of England alwayes to depend on Forreigners by their interposition to seek relief from their pressures and in return be affected to them and inclined by way of gratitude to promote their desires Can it be your interest to oblige us to send our Children beyond Sea to be bred up to forreign customs and inclinations and suck in principles which you dislike To have so much money as they and so many religious of both sexes require carried out of the Land and spent in other Countreys To complain of Seminaries and increase their number For if we cannot maintain our Children at home we must send them abroad and they are not now to begin to live on Alms if we cannot send money with them and that more plentifully than we perhaps should allow them But to let these things alone do you think it for your credit not to do as you would be done by to gain the imputation of persecuters persecuters of a Religion profest by most of your neighbours and of a Church from which you derive your selves For I hope you do not think to avoid that imputation because what you do you do by Law The primitive Christians suffered all by Law and by Authority and yet are thought persecuted and Martyrs even by your selves Nor were Q. Mary's proceedings without Law and Law not made by her for the present occasion but in force before she came to the Crown You have reason to reproach her times but then sure you have the same reason not to bring the same reproach on your own for burning is not much worse than hanging and quartering If you are perswaded Persecution or if that word dislike you Punishment for Religion advisable at least consider that our case is different from that of other dissenters We changed not from the Law but the Law from us We are to the Reformation as Judaism and Paganism to the Gospel before it The Primitive Christians when Authority came to be on their side never made use of it to work upon the conscience of those whose perswasions in Religion were more antient than their own They imploy'd instruction and example and added the allurement of worldly preferment disposing of places of Trust and Profit only to Christians But they came not to force Me thinks you should not condemn the practice of the Primitive times and use us worse than they thought fit and I think lawful to use Pagans and Jews You might too in my opinion consider whether it be for your advantage to let fall the plea you have so long and so universally maintained that you punish not for Religion but Treason When we ask where this Treason lies the answer alwaies is that it lies in our perswasions concerning the Pope in whom we believe a power inconsistent with the safety of Princes or fidelity of Subjects This the person of Honour against S. C. makes the only cause of jealousy or suspition of our Fidelity which may prove dangerous to the Kingdom and against which the laws are provided This the Execution of Justice This every body assigns for the Treason laid to our charge When this is taken away there remains nothing that I know but Religion for which we are to be punish't I hope I have declared my mind sufficiently in this point and cleared my self and those of the same judgment with me from all guilt of this Treason If you will notwithstanding punish us you may if you please but I am sure you cannot say you punish us for Treason The laws being as they are it may shew very strange to pretend favour from them but yet confiding in the authority of this Honourable Person who says they were provided against Opinions which I have disclaimed and considering the laws themselves mention withdrawing Subjects from their natural Obedience 23. Eliz. 3. Jac. as the ground of their severity I hope it will not misbecome me to wish you would be more guided by their intention than Letter The intention of laws I think is acknowledged their best Interpreter were the judgment of this Person of Honour of value with you I should not doubt you would allow some equity in my wishes for I am sure I am not within the compass of that intention But I am not so vain as to appeal to any thing but mercy As nothing more becomes me to ask so nothing more becomes you to shew though truly I think it not more for your Honour than interest in this case Certainly you would not have these Principles gain strength against which you testify so much aversion Why then do you do all you can to make them pass for Principles of Religion For while you treat equally those who disclaim and those who hold them and put no difference betwixt them and points of Faith you bid fairly to perswade people that there is none and that they ought to suffer as much for the one as the other Methinks your own experience should instruct you that 't is no easy thing to pluck up any perswasions which are thought to spring from the root of Religion let them be never so false or wicked and that it concerns you sufficiently not to let more than are be thought incorporated with it If this import you not can it at least be for your advantage that those who would comply with you should be in a much worse condition than those who will not and this purely for their compliance The equality which you shew hinders not the cases of the one and the other from being very unequal and the disadvantage of the inequality lies on that side which is inclin'd to you These are in the worst case of any of our communion For the rest suffer only from you these from you and us too Pray reflect