In the Presbyterians Address to his Majesty they assert the lawfulness of Episcopacy and of a Liturgy The mention of the names of many Bishops both in the beginning of Reformation and of later times are precious to them like an Oyntment poured forth the memory of them is and shall be in Benedictione And there have been never any so bad since as to make soâ—er persons to condemn all There are still of the Hierarchy men of that piety learning temperance meekness and moderation that we despair not if some Boutefeau's and Incendiaries would cease blowing the coals might be the happy Instruments to quench the Fire and be like the good Shepherds who bring home their Sheep when gone astray in their very bosoms and with their Benedictions There are also amongst Dissenters many sons of peace who love not to fish in troubled waters or to blow the coals great friends to Unity Peace and Order and no enemies to Bishops who either keep no Private-Meetings or therein disswade not the people from frequenting the Publick-Assemblies or hearing their Ministers or Liturgy Quest Have not they that took the Covenant â—bjured all Episcopacy Answ It was declared in the Assembly before the Covenant was taken that the Covenant did not bind against a Primitive-Episcopacy and at the time of taking the Covenant this was frequently declared in private conference and some did it from the Press and Pulpit However the Covenant obliges men to act only in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they may it doth not 〈◊〉 men to be seditious in the State or schismatical in the Church tâ— bring about any alteration or reformation of Government We are far from thinking say the Presbyterians in their Paper of Proposals to his Majesty speaking of the Covenant that it obligeth us to any evil or to go beyond our places and callings to do good much less to resist Authority tâ— which it doth oblige us p. 13. We ought not to use violent tumultuous seditious or any unlawful mean to bring about a Reformation Notwithstanding the Covenant we acknowledge it belongs to his Majesty with the advice of the Parliament to settle and regulate the Church Government And it may be remembred that Presbyterian Parliament voted his Majesties Concessions a ground of Peace although he never consented to the extirpation oâ— Episcopal-Government Quest. Were the Presbyterians bound by the Covenant to divest his Majesty of his supremacâ— in Ecclesiastical Affairs See Debate pag. 168 4. Ed. Answ An Oath for confirmation ought to be an end of all strife They have since generally taken the Oaths of Supremacy and Alleagiance not above six that I hear of refused it in all Scotland And on the other side 't is not unknown to some that a very learned and great Clerk a Dignitary of this Church of no small note was hardly perswaded to take down this bitter Pill according to his gust though it was double gilt with a Prebend of 200 l. per annum His Majesties Commissioner presides to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland They willingly and heartily give unto the Kings Majesty the chief Government of all Estates of this Realm whether they be Ecclesiastical or Civil The Covenant binding men to reform according to the Word of God could not reasonably or charitably be construed ro take away that Prerogative which we see to have been given always to godly Princes in holy Scriptures by God himself i. e That they should rule all Estates and Degrees committed to their charge by God whether they be Ecclesiastical or Temporal and restrain with the Civil Sword the stubborn and evil Doers Yea they are so far from wasting or clipping this his Majesties Royal Prerogative that they would not be offended if the Statute of King Edward the Sixth was again revived whereby all Citations in the Courts Spiritual should issue out in the Kings Name and be sealed with his Seal And if it should once please his Majesty it would not displease them no though they themselves were admitted into the Church to have a Vicar General in Spiritualibus Quest Are the high Sons of the Church advanced so many degrees as is pretended above the poor Nonconformists in their Charity See Debate p. 20. Ed. 1. Answ There is just cause to fear that amongst them some there are who have a greater Charity for the Church of Rome than for the Presbyterians that is for them that differ from the Church of England in Substantials in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government that for them who differ from them onely or chiefly in Circumstantials in lesser and lighter matters not of the Foundation of Religion but belonging onely to the Superstructure or if you please at best to the adorning of it For my own part and for all the Nonconforming-Ministers I may say for ought I know That we would sooner give the Right Hand of Fellowship to the highest and most rigid Father or Son of the Church of England than joyn hands with Rome That some of our Brethren of the other side have not a heart so inlarged with Charity to all men and particularly to Dissenters as is pretended and boasted may be evinced by the Treatise under consideration which may seem to be designed to render their Brethren and Ministers of the Gospel too ridiculous if not odious I heard no mean man say That the design was To put the Beasts Skin upon us and then to cry Ha-loo Ha-loo I must needs confess it appears to me at least very uncivil if not uncharitable also to go about to pluck off the Healing and Soveraign Playster which his Majesties Royal Hands with the Advice of his Parliament a whole Colledge of Physitians in the Act of Indempnity had laid on the bleeding Wounds which the late War had made amongst us I might add also that there are some passages so full of Lightness and Drollery that they might better become some Ecclesiastical Hudibras or a Ben-Johnson a Doctor of the Stage than a Rabbi or a grave Doctor of the Church Quest. Are men of the high Prelacy or high and rigid Sons of the Church men of the highest form in Religion and of a more perfect serious and solid Godliness than the poor silly scrupulous Nonconforming-Turn-ours See Debate p. 155. Answ 'T is very strange if Preferment if great places of Power and Profit should indeed make men more truly and seriously godly and particularly should by an Antiparistasis produce the great work of Self-denyal Mortification c. We will not at present compare Godliness but this I think That 't is no demonstration of a higher degree of Godliness to jeer at Godliness though in a Dissenter and accompanied with some Weaknesses and imperfections to make the door to the Theatre and Stage so wide and to the Church and Pulpit so strait and narrow Cerâ—â—inly the true right perfect godly man is neither your Nonconformist godly man nor Conformist as described in the Debate
To the Law or to the Gospel to his own Obedience or Good Works or to the Obedience of Christ Answ The ordinary method of Cure is first to search the Wound to the bottom and then to apply healing Remedies first to pour in Wine and then Oyl Our Physitians use first to purge or vomit their Patients and then to give Cordials So spiritual Physitians till the Patient be truly and rightly sensible of his sins they send him to the Law for by the Law comes the knowledge of sin the horrid nature and demerit of it but then for Comfort they send him to the Gospel to this soveraign Balsom yea they pour on them the Oyl of Gladness upon whom they perceive has been the Spirit of Heaviness They say not Physitian heal thy self but rather send them to the Great Physitian by whose stripes we and they are healed We dare not trust in our own Righteousness but in the Lord our Righteousness Quest Do not Nonconformists as they desire liberty from the Impositions of Men in the Worship of God so preach up liberty from the Commandments of God in the Course of their Lives Or at least do they not lift up their Voice like a Trumpet when they publish the Gospel but onely speak in a small and still Voice when they treat of Obedience to the moral Law Answ 'T is an unjust Calumny cast on the Protestants by the Papists That they are Solifidians and against good Works And 't is an uncharitable censure of the Nonconformists by the Author of the Debate that they do not preach obedience to the Moral Law as well as Faith in Christ and the Duties of the second Table of the Law as well as of the first Whoever reads the Assemblies Confession of Faith their Larger and Shorter Catechism M. Dod on the Commandments Mr. Anthâ—â— Burgess his Vindiciae Legis may see clâ—â—â— that the Nonconformists are not Libâ—â—â—â—es â—â—â—â—gh they desire some Liberty and that thou 〈◊〉 pray to be delivered and freed from humane ceremonial Laws as God has freed them from the Ceremonial Law of his own making yet they are not Antinomians they commend and in Gods name require Obedience as well as Faith Doing as well as Believing they commend Moral Honesty but prefer Piety We deny him to be a truly godly man that is not a good honest man we deny him to be righteous before God that endeavours not to approve himself righteous in his dealings with men We would not by any means break the two Tables by dashing them one against the other and yet we prefer the Gospel before the Law Christ to Moses the second Covenant to the first that of Grace to that of Works Quest Is not Obedience then to the Moral Law the Condition of our Justification See Debate p. 13. Answ No 'T is not the Condition and Qualification of the Covenant so properly D. M. as 't is of those Persons that enter into the Covenant Faith justifieth the Person before God and Obedience justifieth the Faith before men Obedience saith a Reverend Author must be in the same Subject with Faith but it hath not a Voice in the same Court We do not cry down mans Obedience when we cry up the Obedience of Christ as the matter of our Justification and the Imputation of it as the form of our Justification We dare not appear before God in our own filthy Garments and menstruous Cloaths We expect a Blessing from our Heavenly Father when we are arrayed with the Robes of our Elder Brother Jesus Christ his Righteousness which sends up a sweet smell in Gods Nostrils Quest Is Faith or believing in Christ a coming to Christ or a relying on Christ for the pardon of our sin See Debate p. 43. Answ Yes John 7.37 38. there coming to Christ and believing are all one And to what end Sinners are called to come to Christ we my learn from our blessed Saviour Mat. 11.28 namely That they may find rest I believe in God saith Bishop Nicholson in his excellent Exposition of the Church-Catechism as if I said I put my whole trust hope and confidence in him I â—ely upon him And so may Faith in Christ I â—hink be very well described to be a relying on Christ for the pardon of our sins and all good â—hings If my memory fail not I have often â—eard that Renowned Professor Dr. Samuel Ward deliver it for good Doctrine in the Chair That Faith was Recumbentia in Christum Mediaâ—re c. a Recumbency on Christ for the pardon of â—ins .. One Mr. Down that wrote too against Separation defineth Faith to be a rest of the Will upâ—n Christ and his merits for Justification and consequently Salvation And the same Author obâ—erves that the Hebrew words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all words equipollent in the old Testament and what is meant by them in the Old Testament is expressed in the New by Believing To instance in one Trust in the Lord with thy whole heart saith the Old Testament Prov. 3.5 If thou believest with thy whole heart or with all thy heart saith the New Act. 8.37 We may define Faith thus It it a gracious habit infused into the Heart by the Spirit of God whereby the Soul rests or rolls it self upon Christ for all things appertaining to Life and Godliness for Gods Glory and its own Salvation Quest. Who are the greatest Enemies to the Church of England and to Religion it self those who bring in new and strange Doctrines or those that dissent onely from her as to the Ceremonies Answ Those that differ in Substantials 〈◊〉 Religion are to be thought more to differ thâ—â— those that differ onely in Circumstantials and those ought to be reputed the greatest Nonconformists who do not conform to the Doctrineâ— the Church of England set forth in her Articles Homilies and Liturgy Quest. Who are they Answ Even many that have been conformable enough as to Ceremonies their Names anâ— Tenets you may find in a Book entitled Laudeâ—sium 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and in another called Laâ—densium 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Who they were thâ— maintained these Doctrines and their Doctrinâ—â— in some measure also you may find in Mr. Rushworth's Collections and others who have written the History of the Times immediately preceding the late Wars I shall refer you to one and that is Dr. Fuller in his Church-History who relates that it was complained of to the Sub-committees for Religion in Parliament of which Sub-committee the Bishop of Lincoln the Bishop of Armagh the Bishop of Durham the Bishop of Exeter Dr. Sam. Ward Dr. Hacket Dr. Holdsworth and others were Members that all the Tenets of the Councel of Trent abating only such points of State-Policy against the King's Supremacy as were made Treason by the Statute Good works Co-causes with Faith in Justification private Coufession by particular ennumeration of sins needful necessitate medii to Salvation that the Oblation
remember saith the same judicious Author that the ancient and true Bonds of Unity are One Faith one Baptism and not One Ceremony one Policy And endeavour to comprehend that saying Differentia Rituum commendat unitatem Doctrinae Christs Coat was indeed without Seam yet the Churches Garment was of divers Colours The Presbyterian and Congregational Nonconformists do profess to agree in the main Doctrine with the Church of England contained in her Articles of Religion so as fully to embrace and constantly to adhere unto what is purely Doctrinal in them Besides the Presbyterians do not separate from the Church so as to set up Church against Church Altar against Altar but being thrust out of the Church themselves and the number of men and women dissatisfied about either some passages or Ceremonies in the Lyturgy so that they dare not receive the Sacrament in the way required in the publick Assemblies being very great they take occasion to meet for Religious Exercises in private for a time onely till a door be opened for them in the Church by the removal of some supsosed or real Corruptions in the publick Worship And the reason why some whilst they continue in the City do not frequent the Publick Assemblies may be this Because they are here by connivance onely and dare not be seen openly to out-face a Law But when they are in the Countrey they joyn with the Congregation where they reside protempore to shew their Union with the Church and Conformity to the Laws Nor are they therefore to be judged Schismaticks because they still hold internal Communion with all Christians and so with the Church of England with whom in some things they conceive they cannot communicate externally And there is not saith a Learned Bishop so great Conformity to be expected in Ceremonies as in the Essentials of Sacraments The Separation of the N.C. from the Ch. of Engl. is not total nor perpetual and a man may remove from his Fathers House it being infected with a purpose to come thither when all is clear and well again And their desire and prayer is still That they that went forth of their Churches weeping yet bearing good Seed viz. the Doctrine of Faith Repentance and Obedience to God and his Vicegerent may come again rejoycing bringing their Sheaves that is their Congregations with them Quest But is not this partial and occasionaâ— withdrawing of some Non-conforming Ministers and people from the publick Legal Assemblies justly charged with Schism Answ Hear what a Romish Doctor saith which is cited by Bishop Bramhal in his Treatise of Schism pag. 7 8. When there is a mutual division of two parts or Members of the Mystical Body of the Church one from the other yet both retaining Communion with the Universal Church which for the most part springs from some doubtful Opinion or less necessary part of Divine Worship quam cunque partem amplexus fueris Schismaticus non audies quippe quod Universa Ecclesia neutiam damnarit what side soever you take you are not a Schismatick c. Quest. Sith that divers of the Non-conforming Ministers had no Ordination but by theiâ— Brethren the Presbyters Can they be esteemed lawful Ministers Is such Ordination valid without Re-Ordination by the Bishops Answ Ordination by Presbyters without Bishops was adjudged valid by our former Bishops witness the Case of three Scottish Bishops consecrated in England in King James his dayes Take the History of it from Archbishop Spotsâ—ood who relateth the matter and manner of it â—hus A Question saith he was moved by Doctor Andrews Bishop of Ely touching the Consecration â—f the Scottish Bishops who as he said must first be â—rdained Presbyters at having received no Ordinaâ—ion by a Bishop the Archbishop of Canterbury Doctor Bancroft who was by said That thereof â—here was no necessity seeing where Bishops could not â—e had the Ordination of or by Presbyters must be esteemed lawful This applauded to by the other Bishops Ely acquiesc'd and at the day and place appointed the three Bishops were consecrated A. Spots Hist Book 7. p. 514. Dr. Field in his Book of the Church holds the Ministers lawful Ministers in the Transmarine Churches though ordained without Bishops and Dr. Thorndike in his Treatise relating to the Primitive Government of Churches hath so much charity as not to unchurch the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas who have no Bishops pag. 202. The pious learned and famous Mr. Gataker never had any Episcopal Ordination but was ordained by Dr. Stern Suffragan of Colchester The Religious and Renowned Archbishop Usher in his Reduction set forth by Dean Barnard was of the Judgement that the Chor-Episcopi or Rural Deans might lawfully Ordain And this his Judgement was attested by Doctor Holsworth yea and very probably too by Bishop Brownrig and others of the Sub-Committee for Ecclesiastical Affairs in the beginning of the Long Parliament The Attestation is as followeth We are of the Judgment that the form of Government here proposed is not in any point repugnant to the Scripture and that the Suffragans mentioned in the second Proposition may lawfully use both the power of Jurisdiction and Ordination according to the Word of God and the Practice of the Ancient Church Quest But what great matter is it what the Modern Bishops or Doctors do or say in this Affair Is it not sufficiently known that Aerius is reputed an Heretick for this Tenet viz. For denying a superiority of Bishops above Presbyters And was not Ordination by Presbyters condemned by a Councel of the Ancient Church Answ Aerius is counted an Heretick for other Opinions also by Epiphanius for which our Brethren that Conform will acquit him of Heresie And the Reverend Learned and Laborious Dr. Stillingfleet hath given several Reasons why those Ordinations might be lawfully made void by the Councel in case they had been performed by a Bishop as because in another Bishops Diocess because sine Titulo c. Quest If the Presbyterians can be freed from Schism yet what can be said to clear them from the sin of Sacriledge either as Principals or Accessories Did not the Assembly put out Annotations on the Bible in those times and for fear of displeasing their Masters never meddle with condemning of Sacriledge Answ I answer The Notes commonly called the Assemblies Notes came out before the Assembly was convened and was none of their Act And this is taken notice of by some very considerable Persons in their Preface to the Reader before the Morning-Exercises printed 1659. â—n these words We have not without some regret â—bserved that the Large English Annotations in â—hich but some few onely of the late Assembly togeâ—her with some others had an hand are generally scribed unto the whole Assembly and usually carry â—â—e Name of the Assemblies Annotations as if done â—y the joynt Advice of that Grave and Learned Conâ—ention Yet further as to the places mentionâ—d in the Debate they were commented upon by â—e persons here mentioned That
of Rom. 2.22 â—y Dr. Featly an Episcopal Doctor and a Reveâ—â—nd man a great Sufferer for his Majesty in the â—te times That of Ezek. by Dr. Richardson Biâ—hop of Ardagh in Ireland a person of great Learâ—ing and worth and that in Genesis by Mr. Leigh â—ho was Sub-Dean of Chester As for the Asâ—embly when they sat and acted as an Assembly â—â—en in those days they did dare to condemn â—â—mony and Sacriledge both as Sins against the seâ—ond Commandment as you may read in the â—â—rger Catechism and they cite those two Scriptures for the proof thereof Romans 2.22 Malachy 3.8 And as these were their Principles against the Alienation of Church-Means so they made it their business to preserve the Lands and Revenues of the Church from Spoil and Rapine The Bishops Temporalties were engaged foâ— great Sums of Money before ever the Assembly met and I never heard that the Parliament advised with the Assembly about the sale of them Yet this is certain that the Tythes belonging to the Bishops were kept unsold and reserved foâ— the Churches use and all the Dean and Chapters Lands left untouched even by that Parliament which if over any Was the Presbyterian Parliament until their Members were seized on secluded imprisoned and driven away bâ— the Army They were not Friends to the Hierarchy if we believe Dr. Heylin in his Cyp. Angâ— who designed the buying in of all Impropriations and if we credit Dr. Fuller in fifty year they would have bought them all in And in after times when great Attempts were made tâ— sell the Tythes and Glebe Lands it was withstood zealously and effectually for it was prevented under God chiefly by the means of the Presbyterians and their Friends in the City and Country To conclude will you have Mr. Knoâ— the Fore-man of the Presbyterians his Judgement about Sacriledge For John Knox as saitâ— Archbishop Spotswood 't is clear by his Sermons and Writings still extant that he held it a point of high Sacriledge to rob and spoyl the Church of Tythes Quest Is it not very pride self-conceitedness humour peevishness yea and very obstinacy that occasions their Non-conformity Answ Some of the Nonconformists of old and of late have offered to purge themselves by Oath from so great Crimes in the Case And others have in the Pulpit in their Farewel Sermons protested the contrary and that it was meet Conscience of Duty and fear of Sin which caused their Inconformity Quest Are the Nonconformists justly compared to the Pharises See Cont. p. 138. Answ No The Pharisees in our Saviours time were great Zealots and Sticklers for the Ceremonies of the Jewish Religion and particularly for mens Traditions and Humane Inventions were high Conformists themselves men in Power and Place in the Church and great Haters and Persecutors of the Nonconformists of their times Quest Can any man that is not either very simple or very scrupulous question any thing in the publick Worship in the Liturgy or Ceremonies Is not the Liturgy so perfect that nothing can be added to it or taken from it Answ It was not always so Time was and that but in the year 1644. when learned Mr. Chillingworth preaching before King Charles the First at Reading used these words At what time soever a Sinner doth repent him of his Sins from the bottom of his heart I will put all his wickedness out of my remembrance saith the Lord saith thus The plain truth if you will hear it is The Lord hath not said so these are not the very words of God but the paraphrase of men and by reason of the mistake to which it is subject I fear very often a pernicious paraphrase The Right Reverend the Bishops have done very well to remove this stumbling block at the beginning of the Liturgy O that they would go on to remove out of the way every thing that offends That the Lessons out of the Apocrypha-Books might be either exchanged altogether for the Canonical Scripture or at least reduced to that small number that was appointed in the late Scottish Liturgy where were appointed onely two Chapters out of the Apocrypha one out of Ecclesiasticus the other out of the Book of Wisdom That the new Translation of the Psalms might be read as well as of the Epistles and Gospels That the three Ceremonies the Cross in Baptism the Surplice and Kneeling at the Sacrament whether nocent or innocent night be removed out of this as out of divers other Reformed Churches by means of the Bishops Mediation with his Majesty and the Parliament on that behalf as was thought advisable by the Sub-Committee for Religion whereof the Bishop of Lincoln had the Chair and Bishop Brownrig Dr. Holsworth Bishop Hacket c. were Members Or at least that the use of them might be free according to his Majesties gracious Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs I wish that of my Lord Verulam might be always sounding in the Ears of the Fathers and the Sons and Daughters of the Church till they give ear to it That a contentiâ—us retaining of Custom is a turbulent thing as â—ell as Innovation Methinks 't is as possible for Nonconformists and Conformists to be reconciled â—s for the Church of England to be reconciled with Rome and yet that great learned Bishop Bramhal thought that not altogether impossible â—upposing saith he that something from whence Offences either given or taken which whether right 〈◊〉 wrong do not weigh half so much as the Unity of Christians were put out of Divine Offices which â—ould not be refused if animosities were taken away Bramh. of Sch. p. 280. To this let me add that Golden Saying of Mr. Hales in his little piece â—f Schism Prayer Confession Thanksgiving Reading of Scripture Administration of Sacraments 〈◊〉 the plainest and simplest manner were matter â—ough to furnish out a Liturgy though nothing eiâ—her of private Opinion or of Church Pomp of â—arments or prescribed Gestures of Imagery or Musick of matter concerning the Dead of many superfluities which creep into the Church under the name of Order and Decency did interpose it self Quest Is there any thing that can reasonably or modestly be desired to be amended or bettered in the managery of the Ecclesiastical Government or Discipline Answ The Rubrick before the Commination in the Liturgy supposes it desirable that the Primitive Discipline used in the beginning of Lent might be restored when notorious Sinners were put to open penance Is nothing amiss saith my Lord Bacon Can any man defend the use of Excommunication as a bare process to lacquey up and down for Duties and for Fees it being the greatest Judgement next unto the General at the laâ—â— day Lord Bacon his Discourse about Church-Affairs p. 32. And might we not say That it seems liable to exception that Chancellors and Commissaries and Officials persons not in holy Orders should have power of Excommunication I have read indeed that the French King hath the power of Excommunication but it may be
but made up of both put together whose Character we have in a great measure in the 165th page of the Treatise in my opinion the best page in the Book Where the Power of Godliness is set forth after this manner A truly godly man who hath not only a name to live c is dead who is a Jew not only outwardly in the flesh but inwardly in the Spirit who hath not only the Form but the Power of Godliness in him is such a one as denies himself for God and his neighbour that sets not his heart upon getting Riches and is humble and modest that reverencetâ— his Governours and studies in word and deed to preserve their Authority that humours his Parent though not of their Opinion or perhaps ungodly that is sensible of Benefits and grateful to Bent factors that studies Purity and Chastity that 〈◊〉 kind and tenderly affected to his Relations thâ— keeps his Faith and performs his Promises thougâ— to his own damage that is easily reconciled if 〈◊〉 have been grosly injured that speaks well if he can of his Neighbour and is not ready to believe ever Story of them that endeavours to preserve an evâ—â— temper that commands his Passions that is steaâ— and uniform in his Actions that is meek and suâ—â— missive peaceable and humble that loves Vertâ— whore-ever he sees it and doth not despise or reproad it under the name of meer Morality that is faithful to his trust sober advised and considerate in his undertakings that hath no opinion of himself at loves God above all things that chusâ—th ratherâ— keep at home and mind his own Concernments than to be prying into the secrets of his Neighbours house that has no other design upon any either man or waman than to make them good and further their increase in true Wisdom Quest. Are not the Presbyterians Changelings men of very limber Consciences who instead of being call'd Turn-outs may better be call'd Turn-coats See Cont. p. 29. Answ One would think in reason that those that are charged to be so rigid scrupulous superâ—titious tenacious of their own Opinions obstiâ—ate in their own way should not easily turn with every wind Amongst the Ministers 't is true there have been Willows as well as Oaks amongst our Parsons we have had some Vicars of Brailas who have turned in their Pulpits as well as the Weathercock on their Steeples Some Ministers indeed would not turn and for that treason are turn'd out Confident I am that the greatest number of them that were Sufferers for refusing the Engagement and non-complyâ—â—nce in the late times were of those that are or have been Sufferers since for Non-conformity Quest Are not the Nonconformists men of narrow Souls and of a narrow Charity confined to a Party within a few private Walls or Conventicles whereas the high Sons of the Church their Charity is as large as their Churches even as their CATHEDRALS Answ Sure I am their Charity is not so large as St. Paul's Rom. 14. There was before thâ— Wars a Lady as I have heard from Persons 〈◊〉 Quality not very many years since wrote tâ— the Bishop of Lincoln on the behalf of a Nonconformist that was in trouble for some small Omission or Inconformity To whom the Bishop replied If the Person your Ladiship wrot for had been a Drunkard or a Whoremonger I could have shewed him favour but in this case noâ— at all It is marvellous to think but so it is that Church-Charity should not be so large as Civil The Members of the Long Parliament who tooâ— the Covenant and impos'd it upon others sit quietly in This without having that imposed on them the refusal whereof might occasion their Ejectment out of the House The Nobles and others about the Court that were divided in the the late Wars are sodered again love one another and which is a good and pleasant thing dwâ—l together in Unity The Lawyers in the Inns 〈◊〉 Court unite cement and plead together do not for the old Quarrel turn one another over the Bar or out of Doors The Knights and Gentlemen in the Countrey that fought on seyerul sides are reconciled and act together as one man for the good of his Majesty and his Kingdom notwithstanding what passed in the late differences Onely the Ministers and Ambassadors of the Gospel of Peace who say and do not will as yet have no peace clapping their Wings to stir and beat up their Mettal and crowing to sound an Alarm to a Paper Combate This is a Lamentation and ought to be for a Lamentation Pudet hoc opprobria nobis c. Quest It the Nonconformists are so charitable so willing to forgive what is past and to receive Dissenters into their own Bosoms or to come themselves into the Bosom of their Mother again though she may possibly be charged to have thrust them out of doors because they have narrow Throats and could not swallow a Pompion instead of a Mastick Pill or a Hedghog in stead of an Oyster what 's the Reason then that of old in their publick Churches and now-a-days in their private Conventicles they use not the Lords Prayer Was it not because of that Petition Forgive us our Trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us Debate p. 95. 1 Ed. Answ There were those who are now Nonconformists that in former times used it constantly and some who wrot Apologies for it And divers Ministers now-a-days who do keep private Meetings do still use the Lords Prayer in their private Congregations Quest Can they be thought charitable especially to Dissenters that cry out of the Pope as Antichrist and the Popish Religion as Antichristian Answ King James called the Pope Antichrist in his Writings The Homilies call him so Hom. Tom. 1. p. 17. Edit .. and again p. 38. p. 70. Yea the publick Prayers for the 5th of Novemb. before Archbishop Laud's time said of the Ramanists that their Faith was Faction and their Religion Rebellion Quest Have the Nonconformists nothing momentous against the Common-Prayer and Ceremonies but only to cry out that it was taken oâ—â— of the Mass-Book and that they are Reliques of Rome and Popish Superstitions Deb. p. 97. ed. 1. Answ I do know scarce one intelligent Nonconformist who refuses to use the Liturgy upon this account only or chiefly because taken out of the Mass-Book My Gold is not therefore straight become dross because stolen out of my Chest and found in the house of a Thief when 't is legally restored to me again what is it the worse The Common-Prayer is older than the Mass as we usually take the word Mass now adayes but the Mass by the corruption of the Times getting by degrees insensibly by little and little into the Liturgy the Reformers finding things so owned and adhered to the Liturgy as good Gold but rejected the Mass as very Dross and Tin Yet forasmuch as we cannot win the Papists to joyn with us in our Liturgy as they did
Instruments of Cruelty are in their Habitations Cursed be their Anger for it was fierce and their Wrath for it wat cruel And we each one say O my Soul come not thou into their Secrets unto their Assemblies mine Honour be not thou united But let God divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel Mr. Bridge was not in Town then which may be supposed the Reason we find not his Name amongst the Subscribers As for W. B. whether his Writings be so faulty as they are charged to be in the Debates I cannot tell having not read them but a Conformable Doctor told me that he had searched them and that the Author of the Debate had dealt disingeniously in his quotations of him c. Quest. May not every whit as much be said for the Papists why they should be tolerated as to the publick exercise of their Religion as for Nonconformists Do not they profess all Loyalty to his Majesty and declare against all Rebellion Answ The Papists depend upon a forraign Power in Ecclesiastical Affairs superiour as they think to his Majesty And it was subscribed by twelve Bishops in Ireland as follows Their Religion is superstitious and idolatrous their Faith and Doctrine erronious and heretical their Church in respect of both Apostatical Whereas the Nonconformists whether Presbyters or Congregationists agree with the Church of England in the Doctrine of Faith and Sacraments differ not in any substantial part of Religion from her What the Papists practice hath been how dangerous to the Civil Peace the History of England in Q. Elizabeth's days can tell us That 't is impossible for any Nation to be free from Troubles or Treason so long as they suffer Jesuites amongst them saith Watson in his Quodlibets And that he and his Order were not so good and loyal as they pretended may be guessed from hence that he himself was afrerwards executed for Treason Moreover Papists cannot when they have power long live without persecuting Protestants saith a Reverend Doctor Hence may appear that we see K. H. III. of France stabb'd and lamn'd because he would not persecute them enough So the Answer to the Papists Apology p. 21. As for Quakers they may seem to be the very Spawn of the Romish Emissaries proselyted by them but made more dangerous to Magistrates and all Civil Society by this one Principle that they hold viz. That they ought to be guided and to act not by the Scripture nor according to the command of the Civil Magistrate or Spiritual Guides and Pastors but by and sudden Flash or Light within them I am not satisfied to have a hand in the Execution of the Sanguinary Laws against Papists yet should be loth to try how Sanguine or good natur'd they would be if they had power in their hands to execute the Writ De Haeretico comburendo If we may say of them as they use to say of Fire and Water They are good Servants I am sure 't is as true That they are but bad Masters Quest How can we agree to live quietly with these Nonconformists Are they not so much divided from us in their Judgement that they divide from us in their Language also and in fine would bring all things into a Babel of Confusion Cont. p. 1. Answ The greater number of them I presume speak as others do and conform to that ordinary phrase Well I thank God If any when enquired of about their Health say I am well through Mercy they do but as the French Protestants do they are surely few in comparison that say so commonly and I do not remember one Minister that useth to say so they that do possibly have recovered from some sickness or escaped some danger which occasions them to use this expression But if you will be critical some think it a sign of a greater humility to say I am well through mercy than the other I am well I thank God However it is not so liable to exception as to say I am well y' faith as I have heard that some Conformists do although Bishop Saunderson doth not approve of that language in common discourse We do not hold it unlawful to use the name of God in our Salutations as Boaz did and can say and pray God save the King as heartily as your selves I know â—o Nonconforming-Ministers that hold it unlawful to teach Children their Catechism Prayers lest they should take God's Name in vain And yet I must have leave to say that a reverend Bishop doth reckon that we sin against the third Commandment by an irreverend and customary mention of God's great and glorious Name upon trivial occasions and a learned Doctor in his Exposition of the third Commandment makes it a duty not to use the Name of God but with great reverence See Dr. Pat. Catech. Quest Are Nonconformists most guilty of breaking the third Commandment in the main sense See Cont p. 4. Answ Mr. Case Mr. Edwards and the London Ministers cited by the Author of the Debate in his Continuation all prove they were very tender of the breach of an Oath desirous to keep far from it themselves and to save others with fear plucking them out of the fire and the present ejected and dejected estate of the Nonconformists may testifie that they are such as fear an Oath The Presbyterians are bold to say in one of their Papers to his Majesty That the Obligation of the Covenant upon the Consciences of the Nation was not the weakest Instrument of his Return As to your citations out of Mr. John Goodwyn and Mr. John Lilborne I say there lyeth an Exception against the Witnesses in the Case as I suppose you might say if their Testimonies were produced against the Hierarchy Liturgy and Ceremonies Quest What may be the cause the Author of the Debate is so fierce against the Protestation taken by the Parliament before the War and which his late Majesty excepted not against when taken although he was then at Whitehall Answ The true Reason may be this because the House of Commons put out an Interpretation that by the Doctrine of the Church of England which they promised to maintain they meant onely the Doctrine in opposition to Popery and Popish Innovations and did not thereby oblige themselves or others to the maintenance of the Discipline and Government If that had been in 't is to be thought it would have gone down as easily with men of his way as the Et-caetera Oath did concerning which the Historian gives us this account That some Bishops pressed it on Ministers before the day required to take it by the Canon and enjoyned them to take it kneeling a Ceremony not exacted or observed in taking the Oath of Alleagiance and Supremacy Full. Hist 6.11 p. 17. Quest What is to be thought of the Continuation of the Friendly Debate Answ It seems to be an unfriendly Continuation of Debate and Strife contrary to the Act of Indempnity and to be a continued breach of
Unity than the Romanists and yet in several Countries they have several Rites Customs and Priviledges and in England before the happy Reformation the Service was ad modum Sarum and ad modum Bangor different in divers Churches Quest Is it not necessary to appoint the same Vestures and Gestures for the Worship of God to avoid difference and confusion Answ There is no Gesture or Ceremony prescribed in the singing of Psalms and yet People generally are bare and reverend in that exercise The late Canons in 1640. leave Bowing towards the East of Altar indifferent and would not have those that do it to judge those that do it not nor those that do it not to judge those that do it Now what greater inconvenience would follow if the same moderation and liberty to practise differently were used as to the Cross Surplice and Kneeling at the Sacrament of the Lords Supper If there must be absolute and universal Uniformity in the Worship of God amonst the Worshippers then all must alike have their Faces one way must wear all Garments of the same fashion and colour In the late Times when the Liturgy and Ceremonies were disused there were not a quarter of those private Meetings that have been since The number of them that separated from the Publick Worship were very small in comparison I suppose not ten to an hundred The Author of the Debate I guess and hundreds if not thousands of Conformists did not hold themselves bound notwithstanding the Laws for Liturgy and Ceremonies to absent themselves from the then Publick Worship and assemble privately that they might uphold Uniformity in Forms of Prayer Rites and Ceremonies Whence we may reasonably conclude That they thought Gods Publick Worship might be carried on without Uniformity in these things And again That the omission of things required by Law is not judged so great a sin as is by them pretended Quest Did not Presbyterians decry all Separaration and refuse to tolerate Independents See Cont. p. 224. Answ The Presbyterians both old and modern are against Separation They deny that they separate from you for upon occasion they joyn with you in Ordinances and if you remove some things wherewith your Worship is clogg'd they would joyfully communicate constantly with you The present partial and temporary withdrawing as to some Acts of Worship is not to be charged with Schism If you hold forth communion with your Church as in the Apostles days with a Liturgy sufficiently corrected without Symbolical Ceremonies without such Oaths Declarations and Subscriptions they will come into your Bosom though you not onely cast them out of your Lap but thrust them out of your House and shut the Doors upon them As we justifie the Church of England from Schism notwithstanding our Separation from Rome so the Nonconformists will endeavour to justifie their withdrawings in some Acts and for a time only by reason of the terms of Communion imposed on them That they are for Reformation not Separation may be hence concluded That in a late project for Peace and Agreement this was one Proposition given in by the Presbyterians themselves That whosoever should be capable of any Employment should profess to hold Communion with the Church of England and to the uttermost of his power to promote the Peace and Happiness thereof And when there was a difference betwixt Presbyterians and their Brethren commonly called Independents formerly there was a Conference before a Committee of Parliament betwixt them in which the Presbyterians as I am credibly informed offered either to give or take that is to say They would take the Establishment and allow their Brethren of the Congregational-way a well-regulated Toleration or let their Brethren take the Establishment and allow the Presbyterians such a Toleration And one of the chief of them when the London-Ministers waited on his Majesty at the Hague when discourse was about Ecclesiastical Affairs earnestly moved his Majesty that he would please to think of a way to indulge them a Liberty though they should not be comprehended in the Publick Establishment as it was then hoped the Presbyterian would have been In brief the Presbyterians disclaim Separation they are willing to have Union and Communion with the Church of England upon Christian and friendly Terms And they desire the like Liberty and Toleration from the Bishops that they were willing and ready to have shewed to their Brethren of the Congregational Way Yea they would bless God and our Governours if they might have the like Favours and Liberties that Dr. Gunning Dr. Wild Dr. Hide and others the Now-Conformists had in former times Quest If the Presbyterians are willing to conform to a Liturgy and to this Liturgy when sufficiently corrected yet what hopes is there that ever there should be any Alteration or Reformation of it which will satisfie or please them so as to use it Answ Yes there is such a draught already made to the great content of the chief of the Presbyterians and this done by three Reverend persons all Conformists And which I hope may be produced when ever Authority shall please to command it Quest. Would it not be accounted a weak thing to yeild or condescend though never so little if this might be a means to cement and soder us together again Answ It was the prudence of the ancient Church to satisfie the Joannites who had kept Conventicles apart from the Church for thirty years being disgusted at the dishonour done to John Chrysostom their Bishop or Pastor and this the Church did by restoring his honour after he was dead Socrat. Eccles Hist. Quest Why should the Church of England remove the Ceremonies which she hath retained since the Reformation May she not thereby disgust and offend the Romanists to please the Nonconformists which they call Puritans rather than Protestants Answ These Ceremonies were at first retained and continued when others were cast out of the Church in hopes to bring the Papists to a compliance with our Church But Archbishop Usher as he that writes his Life informs us upon occasion declared his Judgement concerning them That experience of many years hath shewed that this condescention hath rather hardned them in their Error than brought them to a liking of our Religion this being their usual saying If our Flesh be not good why do you drink of our Broth If the Church stick close to the Ceremonies she is not like to gain our Adversaries the Romanists to our Communion if she lay aside the Ceremonies she may gain thousands and ten thousands of our Brethren to our Church again That they may do thus God grant that the same mind might be in all our Bishops that was in Christ Jesus the chief Shepherd and Bishop of our Souls that they may love and feed their Sheep and be ready to lay down their lives for their Sheep and then their Yoak will be easie and their Burden light Or that was in the blessed Apostle Paul on whom was the
a better man than ever he thought him to be there were so many good things charged upon him And another Presbyterian now a Nonconformist preaching to the same Auditors preached that Antichristian and Babylonian were terms sooner imputed or charged than proved But if the Nonconforming-Ministers or People were yet ignorant and to seek for scoffing and reviling language they might have a Dictionary of such hard words out of the Friendly Debate If there be in Private-meetings that use railing and reviling speeches as too many too often have is publick Congregations I would rather advise people to sit quietly at home if they will not go to Church than to go or step out of doors to learn their language I do not love a biting tongue and I take a black mouth to be as venemous in a man as 't is accounted wholsom in a dog And if there be any printed Book wiâ—h such railing speeches or phrases in them I will promise you it shall never have my Imprimatur without an Index expurgatorius in the next Edition Quest Is the Divinity of the Nonconformists a Phrase-Divinity and in case their Books and Sermons are not fill'd with foul language is there any thing besides fine words and new phrases in them Answ There was something besides words in the Old Nonconformists witness the writings of Mr. Dod Mr. Ball Mr. Hildersham Mr. Bradshaw c. And doubtless there is matter and that good matter and sound speech that need not to be ashamed in the Writings of Nonconformists of this Generation witness the Books written by Mr. Baxter Dr. Manton Mr. Caryll Mr. Allen Dr. Owen Mr. Pool c. they hold to Scripture-expressions and to the terms of sound words which they have received from the most serious solid pious Bishops and Doctors of the Chair Professors at home and abroad in former times yea the Nonconforming-Presbyterians and Congregational Ministers profess to agree with our Articles of Religion of the Church of England in all things concerning the Doctrine of Faith and Ceremonies And is all this but Phrase-Divinity The Author of the Debate and divers other of the present Conformists may as justly be charged for new Divinity new minted words in Divinity new phrases and modes of expressing themselves in Sermons and Writings and these too less conform to the language of the holy Scripture our own Articles and Homilies the Harmony of Confessions of the Reformed Churches and our ancient Bishops and Doctors The Author of the Debate though he seems to be the Bishops Advocate yet his Writings shew him more an Episcopian than an Episcopalian and 't is easie to see from what forge they have their new Divinity and new Theological Dictionary Quest. Were not the Nonconformists the cause of the strange and new Doctrines and Opinions and of phantastical words and phrases in preaching and writing Ans I grant the taking down the old Mound or Hedge and not setting a new one in the room was an occasion that many erronious persons like wild beasts did get into the Vineyard and that some strange Doctrines Phancies Phrases and Whimses were vented in the Times of War and late Confusions but I say that these things are not to be charged upon the Presbyterians for if they had had power to their principles and purposes they would doubtless have raised up a Mound or Fence against such Errors Fancies and Follies as strong as that the Parliament removed I have heard it observed that of all Churches no Church hath had fewer Heresies and Heterodoxies spring up or at least prosper in it than the Church of Scotland and that this was acknowledged by King James Quest Were all that took the Covenant bound thereby to endeavour to introduce the Government of the Church of Scotland into England because they obliged themselves to maintain and defend Religion in the Church of Scotland and to reform Religion in the Church of England Vid. Contin p. 168. Answ No. They engaged only in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might to preserve Religion in the Church of Scotland against the Common Enemy notwithstanding which the Scots might reform ought that was amiss or defective with his Majesties leave and consent in a legal manner And the English Covenanters were not bound to model the Church-Government in England according to the pattern of the Kirk of Scotland but according to the Word of God and the best Reformed Churches Whether Scotland or Holland or Geneva c. was the best Reformed Church was not determined And the English were not engaged in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might by the Covenant to follow the Model of any one of these or all the Reformed Churches in any thing disagreeing from the Word of God and in case a primitive Episcopacy that is Church-Government by a Bishop with a Presbytery as his Counsellors and Assistants prove most agreeable to the Word of God they were bound to set up onely in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might that Government in the Church of England Notwithstanding what the Earl of Bristol when Lord Digby hath written in his Letters to Sir Kenelm Digby viz. He that would reduce the Church now to the Form of Government in the most primitive times should not take in my Opinion the best nor the wisest course I am sure not the safest for he would be found pecking towards the Presbytery of Scotland which for my part I believe in point of Government hath a greater resemblance than yours or ours to the first Age of Christs Church But whatever was the meaning of the Imposers or Takers of the Covenant in those days I have heard an eminent Person a Doctor that had taken it though a Nonconformist declare That he was not bound by it to endeavour any other Reformation than what he had been obliged unto if he never had taken the Covenant that he is not bound to use any unlawful or seditious means or endeavours to bring about a Reformation That the Law of the Land is the Rule to judge by what means or endeavours are unlawful and seditious Quest Do not the Presbyterians play fast and loose and turn with the wind Was not the time once when they held Ruling Elders to be Jure Divino but now they hold no such matter Answ I believe the Scottish Presbyterians were and still are of that Judgement that Ruling Elders are Jure Divino but I knew few English if any that held that Office so save onely in a large sence as many Episcopalians now hold Bishops to be Jure Divino that is a lawful Government not repugnant to the Word of God However 't is said and that by no mean Scholar That Geneva did not first institute those Officers but only restored them And I have read that it was acknowledged by a great Prelate That the Church had in every Church certain Seniors to whom the Government of the Church was