A RELATION OF A CONFERENCE Held About RELIGION AT LONDON BY EDW. STILLINGFLEET D. D. c. With some Gentlemen of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed and are to be Sold by Randal Taylor near Stationers-Hall 1687. THE PREFACE THere is nothing that is by a more universal agreement decried than Conferences about Controversies of Religion and no wonder for they have been generally managed with so much heat and passion parties being more concerned for Glory and Victory than Truth and there is such foul dealing in the accounts given of them that it is not strange to see these Prejudices taken up against them And yet it cannot be denied but if Men of Candor and Calmness should discourse about matters of Religion without any other interest than to seek and follow Truth there could not be a more effectual and easie way found for satisfying Scruples More can be said in one hour than read in a day Besides that what is said in a discourse discreetly managed does more appositely meet with the doubtings and difficulties any body is perplexed with than is possibly to be found in a Book and since almost all Books disguise the Opinions of those that differ from them and represent their Arguments as weak and their Opinions as odious Conferences between those of different Perswasions do remedy all these Evils But after all the Advantages of this way it must be confessed that for the greater part Men are so engaged to their Opinions by interest and other ties that in Conferences most Persons are resolved before-hand to yield to no conviction but to defend every thing being only concerned to say so much as may darken weaker Minds that are Witnesses and give them some occasion to triumph at least conceal any foil they may have received by wrapping up some pittiful shift or other in such words and pronouncing them with such accents of assurance and perhaps scorn that they may seem to come off with Victory And it is no less frequent to see Men after they have been so baffled that all discerning Witnesses are ashamed of them yet being resolved to make up with impudence what is wanting in Truth as a Coward is generally known to boast most where he has least cause publish about what feats they have done and tell every body they see how the cause in their Mouth did triumph over their Enemies that so the praise of the defeat given may be divided between the cause and themselves and though in modesty they may pretend to ascribe all to Truth and the Faith they contended for yet in their Hearts they desire the greatest part be offered to themselves All these Considerations with a great many more did appear to us when the Lady T. asked us if we would speak with her Husband and some others of the Church of Rome as well for clearing such Scruples as the perpetual converse with those of that Religion had raised in the Lady as for satisfying her Husband of whose being willing to receive instruction she seemed confident Yet being well assured of the Ladies great candor and worth and being willing to stand up for the Vindication and Honour of our Church whatever might follow on it we promised to be ready to wait on her at her House upon advertisement without any nice treating before-hand what we should confer about Therefore we neither asked who should be there nor what number nor in what Method or on what particulars our discourse should run but went thither carrying only one Friend along with us for a Witness If the Discourse had been left to our managing we resolved to have insisted chiefly on the Corruptions in the worship of the Roman Church to have shewed on several Heads that there was good cause to reform these Abuses and that the Bishops and Pastors of this Church the Civil Authority concurring had sufficient Authority for reforming it These being the material things in Controversie which must satisfie every Person if well made out we intended to have discoursed about them but being put to answer we followed those we had to deal with But that we may not forestall the Reader in any thing that passed in the Ladies Chamber which he will find in the following account we had no sooner left her House but we resumed among our selves all had passed that it might be written down what ever should follow to be published if need were So we agreed to meet again three days after to compare what could be written down with our Memories And having met an account was read which did so exactly contain all that was spoken as far as we could remember that after a few Additions we all Three Signed the Narrative then agreed to Few days had passed when we found we had need of all that care and caution for the matter had got wind and was in every bodies Mouth Many of our best Friends know how far we were from talking of it for till we were asked about it we scarce opened our Mouths of it to any Person But when it was said that we had been baffled and foiled it was necessary for us to give some account of it Not that we were much concerned in what might be thought of us but that the most excellent cause of our Church and Religion might not suffer by the misrepresentations of this Conference And the truth was there was so little said by the Gentlemen we spoke with that was of weight that we had scarce any occasion given us of speaking about things of Importance So that being but faintly assaulted we had no great cause of boasting had we been ever so much inclined to it At length being weary with the Questions put to us about it we shewed some of our Friends the written account of it And that those of the Church of Rome might have no pretence to complain of any foul dealing on our part we caused a Copy of it to be writ out and on the 19. of April sent it the Lady T. to be shewed to them And one of us having the honour to meet with her afterwards desired her to let her Husband and the others with him know that as we had set down very faithfully all we could remember that they had said So if they could except at any part of this Narrative or would add any thing that they either did say which we had forgot or should have said which themselves had forgot to say we desired they might add it to the account we sent them For we looked on it as a most unreasonable thing that the Credit of any Cause or Party should depend on their Extemporary Faculty of speaking the quickness of their Invention or the readiness of their memory who discourse about it though it will appear that in this Conference they had all the advantage and we all the disadvantage possible Since they knew and were resolved what they would put us to of which we were utterly ignorant Save that about
the Sons of God have eternal Life or that by Faith only we are the Sons of God M. W. said He would admit of no consequences how clear soever they seemed unless he brought him the express words of Scripture and asked if his consequences were infallible D. S. said If the Consequence was certain it was sufficient and he desired all would take notice that they would not yield to clear Consequences drawn from Scripture which he thought and he believed all impartial People would be of his Mind was as great an advantage to any cause as could be desired So we laid aside that Argument being satisfied that the Article of our Church which they had called in question was clearly proved from Scripture Then N. N. insisted to speak of the corporal presence and desired to know upon what grounds we rejected it M. B. said If we have no better reason to believe Christ was corporally present in the Sacrament than the Jews had to believe that every time they did eat their Pascha the Angel was passing by their Houses and smiting the first born of the AEgyptians then we have no reason at all but so it is that we have no more reason N. N. denied this and said we had more reason M. B. said All the reason we had to believe it was because Christ said This is my body but Moses said of the Paschal festivity This is the Lords Passover which was always repeated by the Jews in that Anniversary Now the Lords Passover was the Lords passing by the Israelites when he slew the first born of AEgypt If then we will understand Christs words in the strictly literal sense we must in the same sense understand the words of Moses But if we understand the words of Moses in any other sense as the commemoration of the Lords Passover then we ought to understand Christs words in the same sense The reason is clear for Christ being to substitute this Holy Sacrament in room of the Jewish Pascha and he using in every thing as much as could agree with his blessed designs forms as near the Jewish Customs as could be there is no reason to think he did use the words this is my body in any other sense than the Jews did this is the Lords Passover N. N. said The disparity was great First Christ had promised before-hand he would give them his body Secondly It was impossible the Lamb could be the Lords Passover in the literal sense because an action that had been past some hundreds of years before could not be performed every time they did eat the Lamb but this is not so Thirdly The Jewish Church never understood these words literally but the Christian Church hath ever understood these words of Christ literally Nor is it to be imagined that a change in such a thing was possible for how could any such Opinion have crept in in any Age if it had not been the Doctrine of the former Age M. B. said Nothing he had alledged was of any force For the first Christ's promise imported no more than what he performed in the Sacramental institution If then it be proved that by saying This is my body he only meant a Commemoration his promise must only relate to his Death commemorated in the Sacrament To the second the literal meaning of Christ's words is as impossible as the literal meaning of Moses's words for besides all the other impossibilities that accompany this corporal Presence it is certain Christ gives us his body in the Sacrament as it was given for us and his Blood as it was shed for us which being done only on the Cross above 1600 years ago it is as impossible that should be literally given at every Consecration as it was that the Angel should be smiting the AEgyptians every Paschal Festivity And here was a great mistake they went on securely in that the body of Christ we receive in the Sacrament is the Body of Christ as he is now glorified in Heaven for by the words of the Institution it is clear that we receive his Body as it was given for us when his Blood was shed on the Cross which being impossible to be reproduced now we only can receive Christ by Faith For his third difference that the Christian Church ever understood Christ's words so we would willingly submit to the decision of the Church in the first six Ages Could any thing be more express than Theodoret who arguing against the Eutychians that the Humanity and Divinity of Christ were not confounded nor did depart from their own substance illustrates it from the Eucharist in which the Elements of Bread and Wine do not depart from their own Substance M. W. said We must examine the Doctrine of the Fathers not from some occasional mention they make of the Sacrament but when they treat of it on Design and with Deliberation But to Theodoret he would oppose S. Cyril of Ierusalem who in his fourth Mist. Catechism says expresly Though thou see it to be bread yet believe it is the Flesh and the Blood of the Lord Jesus doubt it not since he had said This is my Body And for a proof instances Christ's changing the Water into Wine D. S. said He had proposed a most excellent Rule for examining the Doctrine of the Fathers in this matter not to canvase what they said in eloquent and pious Treaties or Homilies to work on Peoples Devotion in which case it is natural for all Persons to use high Expressions but we are to seek the real sense of this Mystery when they are dogmatically treating of it and the other Mysteries of Religion where Reason and not Eloquence takes place If then it should appear that at the same time both a Bishop of Rome and Constantinople and one of the greatest Bishops in Africk did in asserting the Mysteries of Religion go downright against Transubstantiation and assert that the substance of the Bread and Wine did remain he hoped all would be satisfied the Fathers did not believe as they did M. W. desired we would then answer the Words of Cyril M. B. said It were a very unreasonable thing to enter into a verbal Dispute about the Passages of the Fathers especially the Books not being before us therefore he promised an Answer in Writing to the Testimony of S. Cyril But now the matter was driven to a point and we willingly undertook to prove that for eight or nine Centuries after Christ the Fathers did not believe Transubstantiation but taught plainly the contrary the Fathers generally call the Elements Bread and Wine after the Consecration they call them Mysteries Types Figures Symbols Commemorations and Signs of the body and blood of Christ They generally deliver that the wicked do not receive Christ in the Sacrament which shews they do not believe Transubstantiation All this we undertook to prove by undeniable Evidences within a very few days or weeks M. W. said He should be glad to see it D. S. said Now
so many degrees that the traces of the change should be lost We find there have been many other changes in Sacred Things which will seem no less strange and incredible but that we are assured whatsoever really has been may be and if things full as unaccountable have been brought about it is absurd to deny that other things might not have run the same fate It is known that all people are more uneasie to changes in things that are visible and known to every body than in things that are speculative and abstracted and known and considered but by a few they are likewise more unwilling to part with things they are in possession of and reckon their Rights than to suffer new Opinions to be brought in among them and let their Religion swell by additions For it is undoubted that it is much more easie to imagine how a new Opinion should be introduced than how an ancient Practice and Right should be taken away If then it be apparent that there have been great changes made in the most visible and sensible parts of Religious Worship by taking away some of the most ancient Customs and Rights of the people over the whole Western Church then it cannot be thought incredible that a new speculative Opinion might have by degrees been brought in This I shall instance in a few particulars The receiving the Chalice in the Sacrament was an ancient constant custom to which all the people had been long used and one may very reasonably on this Hypothesis argue that could not be for would the people especially in dark Ages have suffered the Cup of the Blood of Christ to be taken from them if they had not known that it had been taken from their Fathers Upon which it is easie to conceive how many speculative Impossibilities an ingenious man may devise and yet we know they were got to part with it by degrees first the Bread was given dipt in the Cup for an Age or two and then the people judged they had both together This step being made it was easie afterwards to give them the Bread undipt and so the Chalice was taken away quite from the Laity without any great opposition except what was made in Bohemia Next to this let us consider how naturally all men are apt to be fond of their Children and not to suffer any thing to be denied them by which they conceive they are advantaged Upon which one may reckon once we are sure it was the universally received custom for many Ages over the whole Latine Church that all Children had the Eucharist given them immediately after they were baptized And the Rubrick of the Roman Missal ordered they should not be suffered to suck after they were baptized before they had the Eucharist given them except in in cases of necessity This Order is believed to be a work of the eleventh Century so lately was this thought necessary in the Roman Church All men know how careful most Parents even such as have not much Religion themselves are that nothing be wanting about their Children and it was thought simply necessary to salvation that all persons had the Eucharist How many imaginary difficulties may one imagine might have obstructed the changing this Custom One would expect to hear of tumults and stirs and an universal conspiracy of all men to save this Right of their Children Yet Hugo de Sancto Victore tells us how it was wearing out in his time and we find not the least opposition made to the taking it away A third thing to which it is not easie to apprehend how the Vulgar should have consented was the denying them that right of Nature and Nations that every body should worship God in a known Tongue In this Island the Saxons had the Liturgy in their Vulgar Tongue and so it was also over all the world And from this might not one very justly reckon up many high improbabilities to demonstrate the setting up the Worship in an unknown Tongue could never be brought about and yet we know it was done In end I shall name only one other particular which seems very hard to be got changed which yet we are sure was changed This was the popular Elections of the Bishops and Clergy which as is past dispute were once in the hands of the people and yet they were got to part with them and that at a time when Church-Preferments were raised very high in all secular advantages so that it may seem strange they should then have been wrought upon to let go a thing which all men are naturally inclined to desire an interest in and so much the more if the dignity or riches of the function be very considerable and yet though we meet in Church-History many accounts of tumults that were in those Elections while they were in the peoples hands yet I remember of no tumults made to keep them when they were taken out of their hands And now I leave it to every Reader 's Conscience if he is not perswaded by all the conjectures he can make of Mankind that it is more hard to conceive how these things that have been named of which the people had clear possession were struck out than that a speculative Opinion how absurd soever was brought in especially in such Ages as these were in which it was done This leads me to the next thing which is to make some Reflections on those Ages in which this Doctrine crept into the Church As long as the miraculous effusion of the Holy Ghost continued in the Church the simplicity of those that preached the Gospel was no small confirmation of that authority that accompanied them so that it was more for the honour of the Gospel that there were no great Scholars or Disputants to promote it But when that ceased it was necessary the Christian Religion should be advanced by such rational means as are suitable to the Soul of man If it had begun only upon such a foundation men would not have given it a hearing but the Miracles which were at first wrought having sufficiently alarm'd the world so that by them men were inclined to hearken to it Then it was to be tried by those Rules of Truth and Goodness which lie engraven on all mens Souls And therefore it was necessary those who defended it should both understand it well and likewise know all the secrets of Heathenism and of the Greek Philosophy A knowledge in these being thus necessary God raised up among the Philosophers divers great persons such as Iustin Clement Origen and many others whose minds being enlightned with the knowledge of the Gospel as well as endued with all other humane Learning they were great supports to the Christian Religion Afterwards many Heresies being broached about the Mysteries of the Faith chiefly those that relate to the Son of God and his Incarnation upon which followed long contests for managing these a full understanding of Scripture was also necessary and that set
Conversions had nothing like the first Conversion of the World to Christianity in them yet their Barbarity remained with them and the Church-men became so corrupt and vicious that they could not have a face to reprove them for those Vices of which themselves were scandalously guilty From the Sixth Century downward what a race of Men have the Popes been chiefly in the Ninth and Tenth Century And indeed any Religion that remained in the World had so retired into Cloysters and Monasteries that very little of it remained These Houses were Seminaries of some Devotion while they were poor and busied at work according to their first foundation but when they were well endowed and became rich they grew a scandal to all Christendom All the primitive Discipline was laid down Children were put into the highest Preferments of the Church and Simony over-run the Church These are matters of fact that cannot be so much as questioned nor should I if put to prove them seek Authorities for them any where else than in Baronius who for all his design to serve the Interest of that Church yet could not prevaricate so far as to conceal things that are so openly and uncontestedly true Now from the Darkness and Corruption of these Ages I presume to offer some things to the Readers consideration First Ignorance always inclines people to be very easie to trust those in whom they have confidence for being either unwilling to trouble themselves with painful and sollicitous enquiries or unable to make them they take things on trust without any care to search into them But this general Maxim must needs be much more certain when subjection to the Church and the belief of every thing established was made a very substantial part of Religion or rather that alone which might compense all other defects Secondly Ignorance naturally inclines people to Superstition to be soon wrought on and easily amused to be full of fears and easie to submit to any thing that may any way overcome these fears A right sense of God and Divine Matters makes one have such a taste of Religion that he is not at all subject to this distemper or rather Monster begotten by the unnatural commixture of some Fear of God and Love of Sin both being disordered by much ignorance hence sprang most of the Idolatrous Rites of Heathenism and all people so tempered are fit for the like humour to work upon Thirdly The Interests of Churchmen led them mightily to study the setting this Opinion on foot This alone set them as high as mortal Men could be and made them appear a most sacred sort of a Creature All the wonders of the Prophets and Apostles were but sorry matters to it What was Moses calling foâ— Manna from Heaven and Water fromm the Rock Elijah's bringing sometimes Fire and sometimes Rain from Heaven what â—â—re the Apostles raising the dead giving sight to the blind and feet to the lanie To the annihilating the substance of Bread and Wine and bringing in their stead not some other common matter but the Flesh and Blood of the Ever-Blessed Jesus He who could do this no wonder he were reverenced enriched secure from all danger exempt from all Civil Jurisdiction and cherished with all imaginable respect and kindness So that it is no strange thing that Churchmen were much inclined to favour an Opinion that favoured their Interests so much Fourthly The Churchmen of these Ages were very likely to be easily drawn to anything which might so much advance their designs that were grown very high especially from the days of Pope Gregory the Great They were struggling with the Civil Powers for dominion and pursued that for many years and spared neither labour nor the lives of Men to attain it And it is not to be thought but Men who did prodigally throw away many thousands in a quarrel would without very nice disputing cherish any opinion that might contribute toward that end And as this was of great use to them so they very much needed both it and all such like shifts for they had none of that sublime Sanctity nor high Learning or lofty Eloquence which former Churchmen had and by which they had acquired great esteem in the World Now the Churchmen in these days having a great mind to preserve or rather to encrease that esteem but wanting those qualities which on a reasonable account might have acquired it or preserved it must needs think of somewhat else to do it by and so found out many Arts for it such as the Belief of Purgatory the Priestly Absolution upon Confession together with the reserved Cases Indulgences and the Pope's Power of taking Souls out of Purgatory And if it be not full as unreasonable to think the Pope should be believed vested with a power of pardoning Sin and redeeming from Purgatory as that Transubstantiation should have been received let any Man judge Fifthly There was such a vast number of Agents and Emissaries sent from Rome to all the Parts of Europe to carry on their designs that we can hardly think it possible any thing could have withstood them In such Ages by giving some terrible name to any thing it was presently disgraced with the Vulgar a clear instance of this was the Fate of the Married Clergy Gregory the Seventh who as Cardinal Benno who knew him represents him was one of the worst Men that ever was born and first set on foot the Pope's Pretensions to the Civil Authority and the Power of deposing Princes and putting others in their places did prosecute the Married Clergy with great vehemency This he could not do on any pious or chaste account being so vile a Man as he was But being resolved to bring all Princes to depend on him there was no way so like to attain that as to have all the Clergy absolutely subject to him This could not be hoped for while they were married and that the Princes and several States of Europe had such a pawn of their fidelity as their Wives and Children therefore because the persons of the Clergy were accounted sacred and liable to no punishment that there might be nothing so nearly related to them wherein they might be punished as their Wives and Children he drave this furiously on and to give them some ill-favoured Name called them Nicolaitans which are represented in the Revelation so vile and odious This was the most unjust thing in the World They might have called them Pharisees or Sadducees as well for all the ancient Writers tell us that Nicolas having a beautiful Wife was jealous and the Apostles challenging him of it he said he was so far from it that he was willing to make her common and thence some set up the community of Wives and were from him called the Nicolaitans But because Women and Marriage were in the case and it was a hateful word this was the Name by which the married Clergy were every where made so odious and though it was much the
persons well affected to the Reformation It is not material what their true motives were for Iehu did a good work when he destroyed the Idolatry of Baal though neither his motives nor method of doing it are justifiable nor is it to the purpose to examine how those Bishops that reformed could have complied before with the corruptions of the Roman Church and received orders from them Meletius and Felix were placed by the Arrians the one at Antioch in the room of Eustatbius the other at Rome in Liberius his room who were both banished for the Faith and yet both these were afterwards great Defenders of the truth and Felix was a Martyr for it against these very Hereticks with whom they complied in the beginning So whatever mixture of carnal ends might be in any of the Secular men or what allay of humane infirmity and fear might have been in any of the Ecclesiasticks that can be no prejudice to the cause for men are always men and the power of God does often appear most eminently when there is least cause to admire the instruments he makes use of But in that juncture of affairs the Bishops and Clergy of this Church seeing great and manifest corruptions in it and it being apparent that the Church of Rome would consent to no reformation to any good purpose were obliged to reform and having the Authority of King and Parliament concurring they had betrayed their Consciences and the charge of Souls for which they stood engaged and were to answer at the great day if they had dallied longer and not warned the people of their danger and made use of the inclinations of the Civil Powers for carrying on so good at work And it is the lasting glory of the Reformation that when they saw the Heir of the Crown was inflexibly united to the Church of Rome they proceeded not to extream courses against her for what a few wrought on by the ambition of the Duke of Northumberland were got to do was neither the deed of the Nation nor of the Church since the Representatives of neither concurred in it But the Nation did receive the righteous Heir and then was our Church crowned with the highest glory it could have desired many of the Bishops who had been most active in the Reformation sealing it with their Blood and in death giving such evident proofs of holy and Christian constancy that they may be justly matched with the most Glorious Martyrs of the Primitive Church Then did both these Churches appear in their true colours That of Rome weltring in the Blood of the Saints and insatiately drinking it up and our Church bearing the Cross of Christ and following his example But when we were for some years thus tried in the fire then did God again bless us with the protection of the rightful and lawful Magistrate Then did our Church do as the Primitive Church had done under Theodosius when she got out from a long and cruel persecution of the Arrians under those enraged Emperours Constantius and Valens They reformed the Church from the Arrian Doctrine but would not imitate them in their persecuting spirit And when others had too deep resentments of the ill usage they had met with under the Arrian Tyranny Nazianzen and the other holy Bishops of that time did mitigate their Animosities So that the Churches were only taken from the Arrians but no storms were raised against them So in the beginning of Queen Elizabeth's Reign it cannot be denied that those of that Church were long suffered to live at quiet among us with little or no disturbance save that the Churches were taken out of their hands Nor were even those who had bathed themselves in so much blood made examples so entirely did they retain the meekness and lenity of the Christian spirit And if after many years quiet those of that Religion when they met with no trouble from the government did notwithstanding enter into so many plots and conspiracies against the Queen's person and the established government was it any wonder that severe Laws were made against them and those Emissaries who under a pretence of coming in a mission were sent as spies and agents among us to fill all with blood and confusion Whom had they blame for all this but themselves or was this any thing but what would have been certainly done in the gentlest and mildest government upon earth For the Law of self-preservation is engraven on all mens natures and so no wonder every State and Government sees to its own security against those who seek its ruine and destruction and it had been no wonder if upon such provocations there had been some severities used which in themselves were uniustifiable for few take reparation in an exact equality to the damage and injury they have received But since that time they have had very little cause to complain of any hard treatment and if they have met with any they may still thank the officious insolent deportment of some of their own Church that have given just cause of jealousie and fear But I shall pursue this discourse no further hoping enough is already said upon the head that engaged me to it to make it appear that it was possible the Doctrine of the Church should be changed in this matter and that it was truly changed From which I may be well allowed to subsume that our Church discovering that this change was made had very good reason and a sufficient authority to reform this corruption and restore the Primitive Doctrine again And now being to leave my Reader I shall only desire him to consider a little of how great importance his eternal concerns are and that he has no reason to look for endless happiness if he does not serve God in a way suitable to his will For what hopes soever there may be for one who lives and dies in some unknown error yet there are no hopes for those that either neglect or despise the truth and that out of humour or any other carnal account give themselves up to errours and willingly embrace them Certainly God sent not his Son in the world nor gave him to so cruel a death for nothing If he hath revealed his Counsels with so much solemnity his designs in that must be great and worthy of God The true ends of Religion must be the purifying our Souls the conforming us to the Divine Nature the uniting us to one another in the most tender bonds of Love Truth Justice and Goodness the raising our minds to a heavenly and contemplative temper and our living â—s Pilgrims and Strangers on this Earth ever waiting and longing for our change Now we dare appeal all men to shew any thing in our Religion or Worship that obstructs any of these ends on the contrary the sum and total of our Doctrine is the conforming our selves to Christ and his Apostles both in faith and life So that it can scarce be devised what should make any