in them of the first 400 years In what Pope his dayes was the true Religion overthrowne in Rome Next I would faine know How can your Religion be true which dissalloweth of many chiefe articles which the Saints and Fathers of that primitive Church of Rome did generally hold to be true For they of your side that have read the Fathers of that unspotted Church can well testifie and if any deny it it shall be presently shewen that the Doctors Pastors and Fathers of that Church doe allow of Traditions that they acknowledge the real presence of the body of Christ in the Sacrament of the Altar that they exhorted the people to confesse their sinnes unto their ghostly Fathers that they affirmed that Priests have power to forgive sinnes that they taught that there is a Purgatory that prayer for the dead is both commendable and godly that there is Limbus Patrum and that our Saviour descended into Hell to deliver the ancient Fathers of the Old Testament because before his Passion none ever entred into Heaven that prayer to Saints and use of holy Images was of great account amongst them that man hath free-will and that for his meritorious works he receiveth through the assistance of Gods grace the blisse of euerlasting happinesse Now would I faine know whether of both haue the true Religion they that hold all these above said points with the Primitive Church or they that doe most vehemently contradict and gaine-say them They that doe not disagree with that holy Church in any point of Religion or they that agree with it but in very few and disagree in almost all VVill you say that these Fathers maintained these opinions contrary to the word of God why you know that they were the pillars of Christianitie the champions of Christ his Church and of the true Catholike Religion which they most learnedly defended against diverse heresies and therefore spent all their time in a most serious studie of the holy Scripture Or will you say that although they knew the Scriptures to repugne yet they brought in the aforesaid opinions by malice and corrupt intentions VVhy your selves cannot deny but that they lived most holy and vertuous lives free from all malitious corrupting or perverting of Gods holy word and by their holy lives are now made worthy to raigne with God in his glory In so much as their admirable learning may sufficiently crosse out all suspition of ignorant error and their innocent sanctitie freeeth us from all mistrust of malitious corruption Now would I willingly see what reasonable answer may be made to this For the Protestants graunt that the Church of Rome for 400 or 500 yeares held the true Religion of Christ yet do they exclaime against the abovesaid Articles which the same Church did maintaine and uphold as may bee shewen by the expresse testimonies of the Fathers of the same Church and shall be largely laid down if any learned Protestant will deny it Yea which is more for the confirmation of all the aboue mentioned points of our Religion wee will produce good and certaine grounds out of the sacred Scriptures if the Fathers authority will not suffice And we do desire any Protestant to alleage any one Text out of the said Scripture which condemneth any of the aboue written points which wee hold for certaine they shall never be able to doe For indeed they are neyther more learned more pious nor more holy then the blessed Doctors and Martyrs of that first Church of Rome which they allow and esteeme of so much and by which we most willingly will be tryed in any point which is in controversie betwixt the Protestants and the Catholicks VVhich wee desire may be done with christian charity and sincerity to the glory of God and instruction of them that are astray W. B. AN ANSVVER TO THE FORMER CHALLENGE TO uphold the Religion which at this day is maintained in the Church of Rome and to discredit the truth which we professe three things are here urged by one who hath vndertaken to make good the Papists cause against all gainesayers The first concerneth the originall of the errors wherwith that part standeth charged the Author and time whereof he requireth us to shew The other two respect the testimonie both of the Primitive Church of the sacred Scriptures which in the points wherein we varie if this man may be believed maketh wholly for them and against us First then would he faine know what Bishop of Rome did first alter that Religion which wee commend in them of the first 400 yeares In what Popes dayes was the true Religion overthrowne in Rome To which I answere First that wee doe not hold that Rome was built in a day or that the great dung-hill of errors which now wee see in it was raised in an age and therefore it is a vaine demand to require from us the name of anie one Bishop of Rome by whom or under whom this Babylonish confusion was brought in Secondly that a great difference is to be put betwixt Heresies which openly oppose the foundations of our Faith and that Apostasie which the Spirit hath evidently foretold should bee brought in by such as speake lyes in hypocrisie 1. Tim. 4.1 2. The impietie of the one is so notorious that at the verie first appearance it is manifestly discerned the other is a mysterie of iniquitie as the Apostle termeth it 2. Thes. 2.7 iniquitas sed mystica id est pietatis nomine palliata so the ordinarie Glosse expoundeth the place an iniquitie indeed but mysticall that is cloked vvith the name of pietie And therefore they who kept continuall watch and ward against the one might sleepe while the seeds of the other were a sowing yea peradventure might at unawares themselves have some hand in bringing in of this Trojan horse commended thus unto them under the name of Religion and semblance of devotion Thirdly that the originall of errors is oftentimes so obscure and their breede so base that howsoever it might be easily observed by such as lived in the same age yet no wise man will mervaile if in tract of time the beginnings of manie of them should be forgotten and no register of the time of their birth found extant Wee reade that the Sadducees taught there were no Angels is any man able to declare unto us under what high Priest they first broached this error The Grecians Circassians Georgians Syrians Egyptians Habassines Muscovites and Russians dissent at this day from the Church of Rome in many particulars will you take upon you to shew in what Bishops dayes these severall differences did first arise When the point hath been well skanned it will be found that many errors have crept into their profession the time of the entrance whereof you are not able to designe and some things also are maintained by you against them which have not been delivered for Catholick doctrine in the primitive times but brought in afterwards your selves
yet is daily offered for the life of the vvorld Contra quem saith he satis argumentatur Rabanus in Epistolâ ad Egilonem Abbatem Ratrannus quidam libro composito ad Karolum regem dicentes aliam esse Against whom both Rabanus in his Epistle to Abbot Egilo and one Ratrannus in a booke which he made to King Charles argue largely saying that it is another kind of flesh Whereby what Rabanus his opinion was of this point in his Epistle to Abbot Egilo or Egilus consequently what that was which the Monkes of Weingart could not indure in his Penitentiall I trust is plaine enough I omit other corruptions of antiquitie in this same question which I have touched elsewhere only that of Bertram I may not passe over wherein the dishonesty of these men in handling the writings of the ancient is laid open even by the confession of their owne mouthes Thus the case standeth That Ratrannus who joined with Rabanus in refuting the error of the carnall presence at the first bringing in thereof by Paschasius Ratbertus is he who commonly is knowen by the name of Bertramus The booke which he wrote of this argument to Carolus Calvus the Emperour was forbidden to be read by order from the Roman Inquisition confirmed afterwards by the Councell of Trent The Divines of Doway perceiving that the forbidding of the booke did not keepe men from reading it but gave them rather occasion to seeke more earnestly after it thought it better policy that Bertram should be permitted to goe abroad but handled in such sort as other ancient writers that made against them were wont to be Seeing therefore say they we beare with very many errors in other of the old Catholike vvriters and extenuate them excuse them by inventing some device oftentimes deny them and fayne some commodious sense for them when they are objected in disputations or conflicts with our adversaries wee doe not see why Bertram may not deserve the same equitie and diligent reviseall Least the heretickes cry out that we burne and forbid such antiquity as maketh for them Marke this dealing well The world must be borne in hand that all the Fathers make for the Church of Rome against us in all our controversies When we bring forth expresse testimonies of the Fathers to the contrary what must then be done A good face must be put upō the matter one device or other must be invented to elude the testimonies objected and still it must be denied that the Fathers make against the doctrine of the Papists Bertram for example writeth thus The things which differ one from another are not the same The body of Christ which was dead and rose again and being made immortall now dyeth not death no more having dominion over it is everlasting and now not subject to suffering But this which is celebrated in the Church is temporall not everlasting it is corruptible not free from corruption What device must they finde out here They must say this is meant of the accidents or formes of the Sacrament which are corruptible or of the use of the Sacrament which continueth only in this present world But how will this shift serve the turne when as the whole drift of the discourse tendeth to prove that that which is received by the mouth of the faithfull in the Sacrament is not that very bodie of Christ which dyed upon the Crosse and rose againe from death Non malé aut inconsulté omittantur igitur omnia haec It were not amisse therefore say our Popish Censurers nor unadvisedly done that all these things should be left out If this be your maner of dealing with antiquity let all men judge whether it be not high time for us to listen unto the advice of Vincentius Lirinensis and not be so forward to commit the triall of our controversies to the writings of the Fathers who have had the ill hap to fall into such hucksters handling Yet that you may see how confident we are in the goodnesse of our cause we will not now stand upon our right nor refuse to enter with you into this field but give you leave for this time both to be the Challenger and the appointer of your owne weapons Let us then heare your challenge wherin you would so faine be answered I would faine know say you how can your Religion be true which disalloweth of many chiefe articles which the Saints and Fathers of that primitive Church of Rome did generally hold to be true For they of your side that have read the Fathers of that unspotted Church can well testifie and if any deny it it shall be presently shewen that the Doctors Pastors and Fathers of that Church doe allow of Traditions c. And againe Now would I faine know whether of both have the true Religion they that hold all these abovesaid points with the primitive Church or they that do most vehemently contradict and gainsay them they that doe not disagree with that holy Church in any point of Religion or they that agree with it but in very few and disagree in almost all And the third time too for fayling Now would I willingly see what reasonable answer may be made to this For the Protestants graunt that the Church of Rome for 400 or 500 yeares held the true Religion of Christ yet do they exclaime against the abovesaid articles which the same Church did maintaine and uphold as may be shewen by the expresse testimonies of the Fathers of the same Church and shall be largely layd downe if any learned Protestant will deny it If Albertus Pighius had now beene alive as great a Scholer as he was he might have learned that he never knew before Who did ever yet saith he by the Church of Rome understand the Vniversall Church That doth this man say I who styleth all the ancient Doctors and Martyrs of the Church Vniversall with the name of the Saints and Fathers of the primitive Church of Rome But it seemeth a small matter unto him for the magnifying of that Church to confound Vrbem Orbem unlesse he mingle also Heaven and Earth together by giving the title of that unspotted Church which is the speciall priviledge of the Church triumphant in heaven unto the Church of Rome here militant upon earth S. Augustine surely would not have himselfe otherwise understood whensoever hee speaketh of the unspotted Church and therefore to prevent all mistaking hee thus expoundeth himselfe in his Retractations Wheresoever in these bookes I have made mention of the Church not having spot or wrinkle it is not so to be taken as if she were so now but that she is prepared to bee so when she shall appeare glorious For now by reason of certaine ignorances and infirmities of her members the whole Church hath cause to say every day Forgive us our trespasses Now as long as the Church is subject to these ignorances and infirmities it cannot
for you for the obtaining of which double blessing both of grace and of glory together with all outward prosperitie and happinesse in this life you shall never want the instant praiers of Your Majesties most faithfull subject and humble servant IA. MIDENSIS TO THE READER IT is now about six yeeres as I gather by the reckoning laid downe in the 25 th page of this booke since this following Challenge was brought unto me from a Iesuite and received that generall Answer which now serveth to make up the first chapter only of this present worke The particular points which were by him but barely named I meddled not withall at that time conceiving it to be his part as in the 34 th page is touched who sustained the person of the Assailant to bring forth his armes and give the first onset and mine as the Defendant to repell his encounter afterwards Only I then collected certaine materials out of the Scriptures and writings of the Fathers which I meant to make use of for a second conflict whensoever this Challenger should be pleased to descend to the handling of the particular articles by him proposed the truth of euery of which he had taken upon him to prove by the expresse testimonies of the Fathers of the primitiue Church as also by good and certaine grounds out of the sacred Scriptures if the Fathers authoritie would not suffice Thus this matter lay dead for diuers yeeres together and so would still have done but that some of high place in both Kingdomes having beene pleased to thinke farre better of that little which I had done than the thing deserved advised me to goe forward and to deliver the iudgement of Antiquitie touching those particular points in controversie wherein the Challenger was so confident that the whole current of the Doctors Pastors and Fathers of the Primitiue Church did mainly run on his side Hereupon I gathered my scattered notes together and as the multitude of my imployments would give mee leave now entred into the handling of one point and then of another treating of each either more briefly or more largely as the opportunitie of my present leisure would give me leave And so at last after many interruptions I have made up in such manner as thou seest a kinde of a Doctrinall History of those seuerall points which the Iesuite culled out as speciall instances of the consonancie of the doctrine now maintained in the Church of Rome with the perpetuall and constant iudgement of all Antiquitie The doctrine that here I take upon me to defend what different opinions soever I relate of others is that which by publike authoritie is professed in the Church of England and comprised in the booke of Articles agreed upon in the Synod held at LONDON in the yeere 1562. concerning which I dare be bold to challenge our Challenger and all his complices that they shall never be able to prove that there is either any one article of Religion disallowed therein which the Saints and Fathers of the Primitive Church did generally hold to be true I use the words of my challenging Iesuit or any one point of doctrine allowed which by those Saints and Fathers was generally held to be untrue As for the testimonies of the Authors which I alleage I have beene carefull to set downe in the margent their owne words in their owne language such places of the Greeke Doctors only excepted whereof the originall text could not be had as well for the better satisfaction of the Readers who either cannot come by that variety of bookes whereof use is here made or will not take the paines to enter into a curious search of every particular allegation as for the preventing of those trifling quarrels that are commonly made against translations for if it fall out that word be not everie where precisely rendred by word as who would tie himselfe to such a pedanticall observation none but an idle caviller can obiect that this was done with any purpose to corrupt the meaning of the Author whose words he seeth laid downe before his eies to the end he may the better judge of the translation and rectifie it where there is cause Againe because it is a thing very materiall in the historicall handling of controversies both to understand the Times wherein the severall Authors lived and likewise what bookes be truly or falsly ascribed to each of them for some direction of the Reader in the first I have annexed at the end of this booke a Chronologicall Catalogue of the Authors cited therein wherein such as have no number of yeeres affixed unto them are thereby signified to be Incerti temporis their age being not found by me upon this sudden search to be noted by any and for the second I have seldome neglected in the worke it selfe whensoever a doubtfull or supposititious writing was alleaged to give some intimation whereby it might be discerned that it was not esteemed to be the booke of that Author unto whom it was intituled The exact discussion as well of the Authors Times as of the Censures of their workes I refer to my Theological Bibliotheque if God hereafter shall lend me life and leasure to make up that worke for the use of those that meane to give themselves to that Noble study of the doctrine and rites of the ancient Church In the meane time I commit this booke to thy favourable censure and thy selfe to Gods gracious direction earnestly advising thee that whatsoever other studies thou intermittest the carefull and conscionable reading of Gods booke may never be neglected by thee for whatsoever becommeth of our disputes touching other antiquities or novelties thou maiest stand assured that thou shalt there finde so much by Gods blessing as shall be able to make thee wise unto salvation and to build thee up and to give thee an inheritance among all them that are sanctified Which next under Gods glory is the utmost thing I know that thou aimest at and for the attaining whereunto I heartily wish that the word of Christ may dwell in thee richly in all wisedome THE CONTENTS of the BOOKE CHAP. I. A Generall answer to the Iesuites Challenge pag. 1. CHAP. II. Of Traditions pag. 35. CHAP. III. Of the Real presence pag. 44. CHAP. IIII. Of Confession pag. 81. CHAP. V. Of the Priests power to forgive sinnes pag. 109. CHAP. VI. Of Purgatorie pag. 163. CHAP. VII Of Praier for the dead pag. 182. CHAP. VIII Of Limbus Patrum and Christs descent into Hell pag. 252. CHAP. IX Of Praier to Saints pag. 377. CHAP. X. Of Images pag. 447. CHAP. XI Of Free-will pag. 464. CHAP. XII Of Merits pag. 492. THE IESVITES CHALLENGE How shall I answer to a Papist demaunding this Question YOur Doctors and Masters graunt that the Church of Rome for 400 or 500 years after Christ did hold the true Religion First then would I faine knowe what Bishop of Rome did first alter that Religion which you commend
be otherwise but there must be differences betwixt the members thereof one part may understand that whereof an other is ignorant and ignorance being the mother of error one particular Church may wrongly conceive of some points wherein others may be rightly informed Neyther will it follow thereupon that these Churches must be of different Religions because they fully agree not in all things or that therefore the Reformed Churches in our dayes must disclaime all kindred with those in ancient times because they have washed away some spots from themselves which they discerned to have been in them It is not every spot that taketh away the beautie of a Church not every sicknesse that taketh away the life thereof and therefore though wee should admit that the ancient Church of Rome was somewhat impaired both in beautie and in health too wherein we have no reason to be sorie that we are unlike unto her there is no necessitie that hereupon presently she must cease to be our sister S. Cyprian and the rest of the African Bishops that joined with him held that such as were baptized by heretickes should be rebaptized the African Bishops in the time of Aurelius were of another minde Doth the diversitie of their judgements in this point make them to have been of a diverse Religion It was the use of the ancient Church to minister the Communion unto Infants which is yet also practised by the Christians in Egypt and Ethiopia The Church of Rome upon better consideration hath thought fit to doe otherwise and yet for all that will not yeeld that either she her selfe hath forsaken the Religion of her ancestors because she followeth them not in this or that they were of the same religion with the Cophtites and Habassines because they agree together in this particular So put case the Church of Rome now did use prayer for the dead in the same maner that the ancient Church did which we will shew to be otherwise the reformed Churches that upon better advice have altered that usage need not therefore graunt that eyther themselves hold a different Religion from that of the Fathers because they doe not precisely follow them in this nor yet that the Fathers were therefore Papists because in this point they thus concurred For as two may be discerned to be sisters by the likenesse of their faces although the one have some spottes or blemishes which the other hath not so a third may bee brought in which may shew like spots and blemishes and yet have no such likenesse of visage as may bewray her to be the others sister But our Challenger having first conceited in his minde an Idea of an unspotted Church upon earth then being farre in love with the painted face of the present Church of Rome and out of love with us because we like not as he liketh he taketh a view of both our faces in the false glasses of affection and findeth her on whom he doteth to answer his unspotted Church in all points but us to agree with it in almost nothing And thereupon he would faine know whether of both have the true Religion they that doe not disagree with that holy Church in any point of Religion or they that agree with it but in very few and disagree in almost all Indeed if that which he assumeth for granted could as easily bee proved as it is boldly avouched the question would quickly be resolved whether of us both have the true Religion But he is to understand that strong conceits are but weake proofes and that the Iesuites have not been the first from whom such bragges as these have beene heard Dioscorus the hereticke was as peart when hee uttered these speeches in the Councell of Chalcedon I am cast out with the Fathers I defend the doctrines of the Fathers I transgresse them not in any point and I have their testimonies not barely but in their very bookes Neither need we wonder that he should beare us down that the Church of Rome at this day doth not disagree from the primitive Church in any point of Religion who sticketh not so confidently to affirme that we agree with it but in very few and disagree in almost all For those few points wherein hee confesseth wee doe agree with the ancient Church must either be meant of such articles onely wherein wee disagree from the now Church of Rome or else of the whole bodie of that Religion which we professe If in the former he yeeld that wee doe agree with the primitive Church what credite doth he leave unto himselfe who with the same breath hath givē out that the present Church of Rome doth not disagree with that holy Church in any point If he meanethe latter with what face can he say that wee agree with that holy Church but in very few points of religion and disagree in almost all Irenaeus who was the Disciple of those which heard S. Iohn the Apostle layeth downe the articles of that faith in the unitie whereof the Churches that were founded in Germany Spaine France the East Egypt Lybia and all the world did sweetly accord as if they had all dwelt in one house all had but one soule and one heart and one mouth Is he able to shew one point wherein we have broken that harmony which Irenaeus commendeth in the Catholick Church of his time But that Rule of faith so much commended by him and Tertullian and the rest of the Fathers and all the articles of the severall Creedes that were ever received in the ancient Church as badges of the Catholicke profession to which we willingly subscribe is with this man almost nothing none must now be counted a Catholicke but he that can conforme his beliefe unto the Creed of the new fashion compiled by Pope Pius the fourth some foure and fiftie yeares ago As for the particular differences wherein he thinketh he hath the advantage of us when we come unto the sifting of them it shall appeare how farre he was deceived in his imagination In the meane time having as yet not strucken one stroake but threatned only to doe wonders if any would be so hardy to accept his Challenge he might have done very well to have deferred his triumph untill such time as he had obtayned the victory For as if he had borne us downe with the weight of the authority of the Fathers and so astonished us therwith that we could not tell what to say for our selves he thus bestirreth himselfe in a most ridiculous maner fighting with his owne shadow Will you say that these Fathers saith he who hath not hitherto layd downe so much as the name of any one Father maintained these opinions contrary to the vvord of God Why you know that they were the pillers of Christianitie the champions of Christ his Church and of the true Catholick Religion which they most learnedly defended against diverse heresies and therefore spent all their time in a most serious studie
of the holy Scripture Or will you say that although they knew the Scriptures to repugne yet they brought in the aforesaid opinions by malice and corrupt intentions Why your selves cannot deny but that they lived most holy and vertuous lives free from all malitious corrupting or perverting of Gods holy word and by their holy lives are now made worthy to raigne with God in his glory Insomuch as their admirable learning may sufficiently crosse out all suspition of ignorant errour and their innocent sanctity freeth us from all mistrust of malitious corruption But by his leave hee is a little too hastie Hee were best to bethink himselfe more advisedly of that which he hath undertaken to performe and to remember the saying of the King of Israel unto Benhadad Let not him that girdeth on his harnesse boast himselfe as he that putteth it off Hee hath taken upon him to prove that our Religon cannot be true because it disalloweth of many chiefe articles which the Saints and Fathers of that primitive Church of Rome did generally hold to be true For performance hereof it wil not be sufficient for him to shew that some of these Fathers maintained some of these opinions he must prove if hee will be as good as his word and deale any thing to the purpose that they held them generally and held them too not as opinions but tanquam de fide as appertayning to the substance of faith and religion For as Vincentius Lirinensis well observeth the auncient consent of the holy Fathers is with great care to be sought and followed by us not in every petty question belonging to the Law of God but only or at least principally in the Rule of faith But all the points propounded by our Challenger be not chiefe articles and therefore if in some of them the Fathers have held some opinions that will not beare waight in the ballance of the Sanctuary as some conceits they had herein which the Papists themselves must confesse to be erroneous their defects in that kinde doe abate nothing of that reverend estimation which we have them in for their great paines taken in the defence of the true Catholick Religion and the serious studie of the holy Scripture Neither doe I thinke that he who thus commendeth them for the pillers of Christianitie and the champions of Christs Church will therefore hold himselfe tyed to stand unto every thing that they have said sure he will not if he follow the steppes of the great ones of his owne Societie For what doth hee thinke of Iustin Martyr Irenaeus and Epiphanius Doth he not account them among those pillers and champions hee speaketh of Yet saith Cardinall Bellarmine I doe not see how we may defend their opinion from error When others object that they have two or three hundred testimonies of the Doctors to prove that the Virgin Mary was conceived in sinne Salmeron the Iesuite steps forth and answereth them first out of the doctrine of Augustine and Thomas that the argument drawne from authoritie is weake then out of the word of God Exod. 23. In judicio plurimorum non acquiesces sententiae ut á vero devies In judgement thou shalt not be ledde with the sentence of the most to decline from the truth And lastly telleth them that when the Donatists gloried in the multitude of authors S. Augustin did answer them that it was a signe their cause was destitute of the strength of truth which was onely supported by the authority of many who were subject to error And when his Adversaries presse him not onely with the multitude but also with the antiquitie of the Doctors alledged unto which more honour alwayes hath beene given then unto novelties he answereth that indeed every age hath alwayes attributed much unto antiquity and every old man as the Poët saith is a commender of the time past but this saith he vvee averre that the yonger the Doctors are the more sharpe-sighted they be And therefore for his part he yeeldeth rather to the judgement of the yonger Doctors of Paris among whom none is held worthy of the title of a Master in Divinitie who hath not first bound himselfe with a religious oath to defend and maintaine the priviledge of the B. Virgin Only he forgot to tell how they which take that oath might dispense with another oath which the Pope requireth them to take that they will never understand and interprete the holy Scripture but according to the uniforme consent of the Fathers Pererius in his disputations upon the Epistle to the Romans confesseth that the Greeke Fathers and not a few of the Latine Doctors too have delivered in their writings that the cause of the predestination of men unto everlasting life is the foreknowledge which God had from eternitie either of the good workes which they were to doe by cooperating with his grace or of the faith wherby they were to beleeve the word of God to obey his calling And yet he for his part notwithstanding thinketh that this is contrary to the holy Scripture but especially to the doctrine of S. Paul If our Questionist had beene by him hee would have pluckt his fellow by the sleeve and taken him up in this maner Will you say that these Fathers maintained this opinion contrary to the word of God Why you know that they were the pillers of Christianity the Champions of Christ his Church and of the true Catholick religion which they most learnedly defended against diverse heresies and therefore spent all their time in a most serious studie of the holy Scripture He would also perhaps further challenge him as he doth us Will you say that although they knew the Scriptures to repugne yet they brought in the aforesaid opinion by malice corrupt intentions For sure hee might have asked this wise question of any of his owne fellowes as well as of us who doe allow and esteeme so much of these blessed Doctors and Martyrs of the ancient Church as he himselfe in the end of his Challenge doth acknowledge which verily we should have little reason to doe if wee did imagine that they brought in opinions which they knew to be repugnant to the Scriptures for any malice or corrupt intentions Indeed men they were compassed with the common infirmities of our nature and therefore subject unto error but godly men and therefore free from all malicious error Howsoever then we yeeld unto you that their innocent sanctitie freeth us from all mistrust of malitious corruption yet you must pardon us if wee make question whether their admirable learning may sufficiently crosse out all suspicion of error which may arise either of affection or want of due consideration or such ignorance as the very best are subject unto in this life For it is not admirable learning that is sufficient to crosse out that suspicion but such an immediate guidance of the holy Ghost as the Prophets and Apostles were
the WORD of God that is to say the Sonne whom he coupled with the Father and prayed unto and for further confirmation hereof he alledgeth among other things that neyther Iacob nor David did pray unto any other but God himselfe for their deliverance The place wherein we first finde the spirits of the deceased to be called unto rather then called upon is that in the beginning of the former of the Invectives which Gregory Nazianzen wrote against the Emperour Iulian about the CCCLXIV year of our Lord. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heare ô thou soule of great Constantius if thou hast any understanding of these things and as many soules of the Kings before him as loved Christ. where the Greek Scholiast upon that parenthesis putteth this note 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He speaketh according to the maner of Isocrates meaning If thou hast any power to heare the things that are here and therein he sayeth rightly for Isocrates useth the same forme of speech boâ—h in his Euagoras and in his Aegineticus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If they which be dead have any sense of the things that are done here The like limitation is used by the same Nazianzen toward the end of the funerall oration which he made upon his sister Gorgonia where he speaketh thus unto her If thou hast any care of the things done by us and holy soules receive this honour from God that they have any feeling of such things as these receive this Oration of ours in stead of many and before many funerall obsequies So doubtfull the beginnings were of that which our Challenger is pleased to reckon among the chiefe articles not of his owne religion onely but also of the Saints and Fathers of the primitive Church who if his word may be taken for the matter did generally hold the same touching this point that the Church of Rome doth now But if he had eyther himselfe read the writings of those Saints and Fathers with whose mindes he beareth us in hand he is so well acquainted or but taken so much information in this case as the bookes of his owne new Masters were able to afford him he would not so peremptorily have avouched that prayer to Saints was generally embraced by the Doctors of the primitive Church as one of the chiefe articles of their Religion His owne Bellarmine he might remember in handling this very question of the Invocation of Saints had wished him to note that because the Saints which died before the comming of Christ did not enter into heaven neyther did see God nor could ordinarily take knowledge of the prayers of such as should petition unto them therefore it was not the use in the old Testament to say Saint Abraham pray for me c. For at that time saith Suarez we reade no where that any man did directly pray unto the Saints departed that they should helpe him or pray for him for this maner of praying is proper to the law of Grace wherein the Saints beholding God are able also to see in him the prayers that are powred out unto them So doth Salmeron also teach that therefore it was not the maner in the old Testament to resort unto the Saints as intercessors because they were not as yet blessed and glorified as now they be and therefore so great an honour as this is was not due unto them And in vaine saith Pighius should their suffrages have beene implored as being not yet joyned with God in glory but untill the reconciliation and the opening of the kingdome by the blood of Christ the redeemer wayting as yet in a certaine place appointed by God and therefore not understanding the prayers and desires of the living which the blessed doe behold and heare not by the efficacie of any proper reason reaching from them unto us but in the glasse of the divine Word which it was not as yet granted unto them to behold But after the price of our redemption was payd the Saints now raigning with Christ in heavenly glory do heare our prayers and desires forasmuch as they behold them all most clearely in the Word as in a certaine glasse Now that diverse of the chiefe Doctors of the Church were of opinion that the Saints in the New Testament are in the same place state that the Saints of the Old Testament were in and that before the day of the last judgement they are not admitted into Heaven and the cleare sâ—ght of God wherein this metaphysicall speculation of the Saints seeing of our praiers is founded hath beene before declared out of their owne writings where that speech of S. Augustin Nondum ibi eris quis nescit Thou shalt not as yet be there who knoweth it not sheweth that the opinion was somewhat generall and apprehended generally too as more then an opinion By the Romanists own grounds then the more generally this point was held by the ancient Fathers and the more resolvedly the lesse generally of force and the more doubtfully must the Popish doctrine of praying to Saints have beene intertayned by them And if our Challenger desire to be informed of this doubt that was among the ancient Divines touching the estate of the Saints now in the time of the New Testament by the report of the Doctors of his owne religion rather than by our allegations let him heare from Franciscus Pegna what they have found herein It was a matter in controversie saith he of old whether the soules of the Saints before the day of judgement did see God and enjoy the divine vision seeing many worthy men and famous both for leaâ—ning and holinesse did seeme to hold that they doe not see nor enjoy it before the day of judgement untill receiving their bodies together with them they should enjoy divine blessednesse For Irenaeus Iustin Martyr Tertullian Clemens Romanus Origen Ambrose Chrysostom Augustin Lactantius Victorinus Prudentius Theodoret Aretas Oecumenius Theophylact and Euthymius are said to have beene of this opinion as Castrus and Medina and Sotus dorelate To whom we may adjoyne one more of no lesse credit among our Romanists then any of the others even Thomas Stapleton himselfe who taketh it for granted that these so many famous ancient Fathers Tertullian Irenaeus Origen Chrysostom Theodoret Oecumenius Theophylact Ambrose Clâ—mens Romanus sss and Bernard did not assent unto this sentence which now saith he in the Councell of Florence was at length after much disputing defined as a doctrine of faith that the soules of the righteous enjoy the sight of God before the day of judgement but did deliver the contrary sentence thereunto We would intreat our Challenger then to spell these things and put them together and afterward to tell us whether such a conclusion as this may not be deduced from thence Such as held that the Saints were not yet admitmitted to the sight of God could not well hold that men should pray
AN ANSWER TO A CHALLENGE MADE BY A IESUITE in JRELAND WHEREIN THE IVDGEMENT OF ANTIQUITY in the points questioned is truely delivered and the Noveltie of the now ROMISH doctrine plainly discovered By IAMES VSSHER Bishop of Meath MATTH 19.8 From the beginning it was not so DUBLIN Printed by the Societie of Stationers 1624. TO HIS MOST SACRED MAIESTIE IAMES BY THE GRACE OF God King of great BRITAINE FRANCE and IRELAND Defender of the Faith c. Most Gratious and Dread Soveraigne WEe finde it recorded for the everlasting honour of Theodosius the yonger that it was his use to reason with his Bishops of the things contained in the holy Scriptures as if he himselfe had beene one of their order and of the Emperour Alexius in latter dayes that whatsoever time hee could spare from the publike cares of the Common-wealth hee did wholly employ in the diligent reading of Gods booke and in conferring thereof with worthy men of whom his Court was never empty How little inferiour or how much superiour rather your Majestie is to either of these in this kind of praise I neede not speake it is acknowledged even by such as differ from you in the point of Religion as a matter that hath added more than ordinary lustre of ornament to your Royall estate that you doe not forbeare so much as at the time of your bodily repast to have for the then like feeding of your intellectuall part your Highnesse table surrounded with the attendance and conference of your grave and learned Divines VVhat inward joy my heart conceived as oft as I have had the happinesse to be present at such seasons I forbeare to utter onely I will say with Job that the eare which heard you blessed you and the eye which saw you gave witnesse to you But of all other things which I observed your singular dexteritie in detecting the frauds of the Romish Church and untying the most knotty arguments of the Sophisters of that side was it I confesse that I admired most especially where occasion was offred you to utter your skill not in the word of God alone but also in the Antiquities of the Church wherein you have attained such a measure of knowledge as with honour to God I trust I may speake it without flatterie to you in a well studied Divine we would account verie commendable but in such a Monarch as your selfe almost incredible And this is one cause most Gratious Soveraigne beside my generall duty and the many speciall obligations wherby I am otherwise bound unto your Majestie which hath emboldned me to intreat your patience at this time in vouchsafing to be a spectator of this combate which I am now entred into with a Iesuite who chargeth us to disallow many chiefe articles which the Saints and Fathers of the Primitive Church did generally hold to be true and undertaketh to make good that they of his side doe not disagree from that holy Church either in these or in any other point of Religion Now true it is if a man doe only attend unto the bare sound of the word as in the question of Merit for example or to the thing in generall without descending into the particular consideration of the true ground thereof as in the matter of Praying for the dead he may easily be induced to beleeve that in divers of these controversies the Fathers speake cleerely for them and against us neither is there any one thing that hath wonne more credit to that religion or more advanced it in the consciences of simple men than the conformitie that it retaineth in some words and outward observances with the ancient Church o◠Christ. Whereas if the thing it selfe were narrowly looked into it would be found that they have onely the shell without the kernell and we the kernell without the shell they having retained certaine words and rites of the ancient Church but applied them to a new invented doctrine and we on the other side having relinquished these words and observances but retained neverthelesse the same primitive doctrine unto which by their first institution they had relation The more cause have I to count my selfe happy that am to answer of these matters before a King that is able to discerne betwixt things that differ and hath knowledge of all these questions before whom therefore I may speake boldly because I am perswaded that none of these things are hid from him For it is not of late daies that your Majestie hath begun to take these things into your consideration from a childe have you beene trained up to this warfare yea before you were twenty yeeres of age the Lord had taught your hands to fight against the man of sinne and your fingers to make battell against his Babel Whereof your Paraphrase upon the Revelation of S. John is a memorable monument left to all posterity which I can never looke upon but those verses of the Pöet runne alwaies in my minde Caesaribus virtus contigit ante diem Jngenium coeleste suis velocius annis Surgit ignavae fert mala damna morae How constant you have beene ever since in the profession and maintenance of the truth your late protestation made vnto both the houses of your Parlament giveth sufficient evidence So much whereof as may serve for a present antidote against that false and scandalous Oration spread amongst forrainers under your Majesties sacred name I humbly make bold to insert in this place as a perpetuall testimony of your integrity in this behalfe WHAT my religion is my bookes doe declare my profession and my behaviour doe shew and J hope in God J shall never live to be thought otherwise sure I am J shall never deserve it And for my part I wish that it might be written in Marble and remaine to posteritie as a marke upon me when I shall swerve from my Religion for he that doth dissemble with God is not to be trusted by man My Lords I protest before God my heart hath bled when I have heard of the increase of Popery and God is my Judge it hath beene so great a griefe unto me that it hath beene like thornes in mine eies and prickes in my sides so farre have I beene and ever shall be from turning any other way And my Lords and Gentlemen you all shall bee my Confessors if J knew any way better than other to hinder the growth of Poperie I would take it and he cannot be an honest man who knowing as J doe and being perswaded as I am would doe otherwise As you have so long since begun and happily continued so goe on most renowned King and still shew your selfe to be a Defender of the faith fight the Lords battells couragiously honour him evermore and advance his truth that when you have fought this good fight and finished your course and kept the faith you may receive the Crowne of righteousnesse reserved in heaven
his Commentaries upon Moses adviseth his Reader not to loath the new sense of the holy Scripture for this that it dissenteth from the ancient Doctors but to search more exactly the text and context of the Scripture and if he find it agree to praise God that hath not tyed the exposition of the Scriptures to the senses of the ancient Doctors But leaving comparisons which you know are odious the envie whereof notwithstanding your owne Doctors and Masters you see helpe us to beare off and teach us how to decline I now come to the examination of the particular points by you propounded It should indeed be your part by right to be the Assailant who first did make the Challenge and I who sustaine the person of the Defendant might here wel stay accepting only your challenge expecting your encounter Yet do not I meane at this time to answer your Bill of Challenge as Bills are usually answered in the Chancerie with saving all advantages to the Defendant I am content in this also to abbridge my selfe of the libertie w ch I might lawfully take make a further demōstration of my forwardnes in undertaking the maintenāce of so good a cause by giving the first onset my selfe OF TRADITIONS TO begin therefore with Traditions which is your forlorne Hope that in the first place we are to set upon this must I needes tell you before we begin that you much mistake the matter if you thinke that Traditions of all sorts promiscuously are struck at by our Religion We willingly acknowledge that the word of God which by some of the Apostles was set downe in writing was both by themselves and others of their fellow-labourers delivered by word of mouth and that the Church in succeeding ages was bound not only to preserve those sacred writings committed to her trust but also to deliver unto her children vivâ voce the forme of wholsome words contayned therein Traditions therefore of this nature come not within the compasse of our controversie the question being betwixt us de ipsâ doctrinâ traditâ not de tradendi modo touching the substance of the doctrine delivered not of the maner of delivering it Againe it must be remembred that here wee speake of doctrine delivered as the word of God that is of points of religion revealed unto the Prophets and Apostles for the perpetuall information of Gods people not of rites and ceremonies and other ordinances which are left to the disposition of the Church and consequently be not of divine but of positive and humane right Traditions therefore of this kinde likewise are not properly brought within the circuit of this question But that Traditions of men should be obtruded unto us for articles of Religion and admitted for parts of Gods worship or that any Traditions should be accepted for parcels of Gods word beside the holy Scriptures and such doctrines as are either expressely therein contayned or by sound inference may be deduced from thence I thinke wee have reason to gainsay As long as for the first wee have this direct sentence from God himselfe Matth. 15. In vaine doe they worship me teaching for doctrines the Commandements of men And for the second the expresse warrant of the Apostle 2. Tim. 3. testifying of the holy Scriptures not onely that they are able to make us wise unto salvation which they should not be able to doe if they did not containe all things necessary to salvation but also that by them the man of God that is the minister of Gods word unto whom it appertaineth to declare all the counsell of God may be perfectly instructed to every good worke which could not be if the Scriptures did not containe all the counsell of God which was fit for him to learne or if there were any other word of God which he were bound to teach that should not be contained within the limits of the Booke of God Now whether herein we disagree from the doctrine generally received by the Fathers we referre our selves to their owne sayings For Rituall Traditions unwritten and for doctrinall Traditions written indeed but preserved also by the continual preaching of the Pastors of the Church successively wee find no man a more earnest advocate then Tertullian Yet hee having to deale with Hermogenes the hereticke in a question concerning the faith whether all things at the beginning were made of nothing presseth him in this manner with the argument ab authoritate negativé for avoyding whereof the Papists are driven to flie for succour to their unwritten verities Whether all things vvere made of any subject matter I have as yet read no where Let those of Hermogenes his shop shew that it is written If it be not written let them feare that Woe which is allotted to such as adde or take away In the two Testaments saith Origen every word that appertayneth to God may be required and discussed and all knowledge of things out of them may be understood But if any thing doe remaine which the holy Scripture doth not determine no other third Scripture ought to be received for to authorize any knowledge but that which remaineth we must commit to the fire that is we must reserve it to God For in this present world God would not have us to know all things Hippolytus the Martyr in his Homily against the Heresie of Noëtus There is one God whom wee doe not otherwise acknowledge brethren but out of the holy Scriptures For as he that would professe the wisedome of this world cannot otherwise attaine hereunto unlesse hee reade the doctrine of the Philosophers so whosoever of us will exercise pietie toward God cannot learne this elsewhere but out of the holy Scriptures Whatsoever therefore the holy Scriptures doe preach that let us know and whatsoever they teach that let us understand Athanasius in his Oration against the Gentiles toward the beginning The holy Scriptures given by inspiration of God are of themselves sufficient to the discoverie of truth S. Ambrose The things which vve finde not in the Scriptures how can vve use them And againe I reade that he is the first I reade that hee is not the second they who say he is the second let them shew it by reading It is well saith S. Hilary that thou art content vvith those things vvhich be written And in another place he commendeth Constantius the Emperour for desiring the faith to be ordered onely according to those things that be vvritten S. Basil Beleeve those things vvhich are written the things which are not written seeke not It is a manifest falling from the faith and an argument of arrogancy either to reject any point of those things that are written or to bring in any of those things that are not written He teacheth further that every word and action ought to be confirmed by the testimony of the holy Scripture for confirmation of the faith of the
hath done marveilous things O give thankes unto the Lord for he is good give thankes unto his mother for her mercie endureth for ever Lady despise not my prayse and vouchsafe to accept this Psalter vvhich is dedicated unto thee The Lord sayd unto our Lady sit thou my mother at my right hand They that trust in thee O mother of God shall not feare from the face of the enemie Except our Lady build the house of our heart the building thereof will not continue Blessed are all they who feare our Ladie and blessed are all they who know to doe thy will and thy good pleasure Out of the deepe have I cried unto thee O Ladie Ladie heare my voice Ladie remember David and all that call upon thy name O give thankes unto the Lord because he is good because by his most sweete mother the virgin Mary is his mercie given Blessed be thou O Ladie which teachest thy servants to warre and strengthenest them against the enemie and so the last Psalme is begun with Prayse our Ladie in her Saints prayse her in her vertues and miracles and ended accordingly with Omnis spiritus laudet Dominam nostram Let everie spirit or everie thing that hath breath prayse our Ladie To this we may adioyne the Psalter of the salutations of the Virgin framed by Iohn Peckham archbishop of Canterburie which is not yet printed His preface he beginneth thus Mente concipio laudes perscribere Sanctae Virginis quae nos à carcere Solvit per filium genus in genere Miri vivificans effectus opere and endeth with a prayer to the blessed Virgin that shee would release the sinnes of all those for whom hee prayed and cause both his owne name and theirs to be written in the booke of life Nec non omnibus relaxes crimina Pro quibus supplicans fundo precamina Nostrumque pariter horum nomina Conscribi facias in vitae paginâ Then followeth his first Psalme wherein he prayeth that she would make us to meditate often Gods Law and afterwards to be made blessed in the glorie of Gods kingdome Ave Virgo virginum parens absque pari Sine viri semine digna foecundari Fac nos legem Domini crebró meditari Et in regni gloriâ beatificari His other 149. Psalmes which are fraught with the same kinde of stuffe I passe over But Bernardinus de Senis his boldnesse may not be forgotten who thinketh that God will give him leave to maintaine that the Virgin Marie did more unto him or at least as much as he himselfe did unto all mankinde and that wee may say for our comfort forsooth that in respect of the blessed Virgin whom God himselfe did make notwithstanding God after a sort is more bound unto us than wee are unto him With which absurd and wretched speculation Bernardinus de Busti after him was so well pleased that hee dareth to revive againe this most odious comparison and propose it a fresh in this saucy maner But O most gratefull Virgin didst not thou something to God Didst not thou make him any recompence Truely if it be Lawfull to speake it thou in some respect didst greater things to God than God himselfe did to thee and to all mankinde I will therefore speake that which thou out of thy humilitie hast past in silence For thou onely didst sing He that is mightie hath done to me great things but I doe sing and say that thou hast done greater things to him that is mightie Neyther is that vision much better which the same author reciteth as shewed to S. Francis or as others would have it to his companion Fryar Lion touching the two ladders that reached from earth unto heaven the one redd upon which Christ leaned from whence many fell backward could not ascend the other white upon which the holy Virgin leaned the helpe whereof such as used were by her received with a cheerefull countenance and so with facilitie ascended into heaven Neyther yet that sentence which came first from Anselme and was after him used by Ludolphus Saxo the Carthusian and Chrysostomus à Visitatione the Cistercian Monke that more present reliefe is sometimes found by commemorating the name of Mary then by calling upon the name of our Lord Iesus her onely Sonne which one of our Iesuites is so farre from being ashamed to defend that he dareth to extend it further to the mediation of other Saints also telling us very peremptorily that as our Lord Iesus worketh greater miracles by his Saints then by himself Iohn 14.12 so often he sheweth the force of their intercession more then of his owne All which I doe lay downe thus largely not because I take any delight in rehearsing those things which deserve rather to be buried in everlasting oblivion but first that the world may take notice what kinde of monster is nourished in the Papacie under that strange name of Hyperdulia the bare discoverie whereof I am perswaded will prevaile as much with a minde that is touched with anie zeale of Gods honour as all other arguments and authorities whatsoever secondly that such unstable soules as looke backe unto Sodome and have a lust to returne unto Egypt againe may be advised to looke a little into this sinke and consider with themselves whether the steame that ariseth from thence be not so noysome that it is not to be indured by one that hath any sense left in him of pierie and thirdly that such as be established in the present truth may be thankefull to God for this great mercie vouchsafed unto them and mak◠this still one part of their prayers From all Romish Dulîa and Hyperdulîa good Lord deliver us OF IMAGES WIth prayer to Saints our Challenger joyneth the use of holy Images which what it hath beene and still is in the Church of Rome seeing hee hath not beene pleased to declare unto us in particular I hope he will give us leave to learne from others It is the doctrine then of the Romane Church that the Images of Christ and the Saints should with pious Religion be worshipped by Christians saith Zacharias Boverius the Spanish fryar in his late Consultation directed to our most noble Prince Charles the Hope of the Church of England and the future felicitie of the World as even this Balaam himself doth style him The representations of God and of Christ and of Angels and of Saints are not onely painted that they may be shewed as the Cherubims were of old in the Temple but that they may be adored as the frequent use of the Church doth testifie saith Cardinall Cajetan So Thomas Arundell archbishop of Canterbury in his Provinciall Councell helde at Oxford in the yeare 1408. established this Constitution following * From henceforth let it be taught commonly and preached by all that the Crosse and the Image of the Crucifixe and
care to figure by colours the bodily visages of the Saints in tables because we have no need of such things but by virtue to imitate their conversation but the fact of Epiphanius rending the vayle that hung in the Church of Anablatha is much more memorable which he himselfe in his epistle to Iohn Bishop of Ierusalem translated by S. Hierome out of Greeke into Latin doth thus recount I found there a vayle hanging at the doore of the Church dyed and painted and having the image as it were of Christ or some Saint for I doe not well remember whose image it was When therefore I saw this that contrarie to the authoritie of the Scriptures the image of a man was hanged up in the Church of Christ I cut it and gave counsell to the keepers of the place that they should rather wrappe and burie some poore dead man in it and afterwards he intreateth the Bishop of Ierusalem under whose government this Church was to give charge hereafter that such vayles as these which are repugnant to our religion should not be hanged up in the Church of Christ. Which agreeth verie well with the sentence attributed to the same Father in the Councell of Constantinople Have this in minde beloved sonnes not to bring Images into the Church nor into the Coemiteries of the Saints no not into an ordinarie house but alwayes carie about the remembrance of God in your hearts For it is not lawfull for a Christian man to be caried in suspense by his eyes and the wandrings of his minde and with his discourse against the heresie of the Collyridians which made an Idol of the Virgin Mary as in the former question hath more largely beene declared to which he opposeth himselfe in this maner How is not this course Idolatrous and a Divelish practise For the Divell stealing alwayes into the minde of men under pretence of righteousnesse deifying the mortall nature in the eyes of men by varietie of artes framed Images like unto men And they truely who are worshipped are dead but their Images that never yet were alive for they cannot be sayd to be dead that never were alive they bring in to be worshipped by a minde going awhoring from the one and onely God as a common harlot stirred with a wicked desire of promiscuous mixture and rejecting the sobrietie of the lawfull marriage of one man If it be inquired who they were that first brought in this use of Images into the Church it may well be answered that they were partly lewd Heretickes partly simple Christians newly converted from Paganisme the customes whereof they had not as yet so fully unlearned Of the former kinde the Gnostique heretickes were the principall who had Images some painted in colours others framed of gold and silver and other matter which they sayd were the representations of Christ made under Pontius Pilate when he was conversant here among men Whence Carpocrates and Marcellina his disciple who brought this Idolatrous heresie first to Rome in the dayes of Pope Anicetus having privily made Images of Iesus and Paul and Homer and Pythagoras did cense them and worship them as Epiphanius and Augustine doe report To the latter that observation of Eusebius may be referred concerning the Image of Christ thought to be erected by the woman that was cured of the bloudy issue It is no marvell saith he that those of the Heathen who of old were cured by our Saviour should doe such things seeing we have seene the Images of his Apostles Paul and Peter yea and of Christ himselfe kept painted with colours in tables for that of old they have beene wont by a Heathenish custome thus to honour them whom they counted to be their Benefactors or Saviours But by whomsoever they were first brought in certaine it is that they proved a dangerous snare unto the simple people who quickely went a whooring after them contrarie to the doctrine which the Fathers Doctors of the Church did deliver unto them And therefore S. Augustine writing of the maners of the Catholicke Church against the Manichees directly severeth the case of such men from the common cause and approved practise of the Catholicke Church Doe not collect unto me saith he such professors of the name of Christ as eyther know not or keepe not the force of their profession Doe not bring in the companies of rude men which eyther in the true religiō it selfe are superstitious or so given unto their lusts that they have forgottē what they did promise unto God Then for an instance of the first he alledgeth that he himselfe did know many which were worshippers of graves and Pictures and at last concludeth Now this I advise you that you cease to speake evill of the Catholicke Church by upbrayding it with the maners of those men whom shee her selfe condemneth and seeketh everie day to correct as naughtie children This also gave occasion to Serenus Bishop of Marsiles 200. yeares after to breake downe the Images in his Church when hee found them to be thus abused which fact of his though Pope Gregory disliked because he thought that Images might profitably be retayned as lay-mens bookes yet in this he commended his zeale that he would by no meanes suffer them to be worshipped I certifie you saith he that it came of late to our hearing that your brotherhood seeing certaine worshippers of Images did breake the said Church-images and threw them away And surely we commended you that you had that zeale that nothing made with hands should be worshipped but yet we judge that you should not have broken those images For painting is therefore used in Churches that they which are unlearned may yet by sight read those things upon the walles which they cannot reade in bookes Therefore your brotherhood ought both to preserve the images and to restraine the people from worshipping of them that both the ignorant might have had whence to gather the knowledge of the historie and the people might not sinne in worshipping the picture There would be no end if we should lay downe at large the fierce contentions that afterwards arose in the Church touching this matter of Images the Greeke Emperours Leo Isaurus Constantinus Caballinus Nicephorus Stauratius Leo Armenus Michael Balbus Theophilus and others opposing them in the East and on the other side Gregory the second third Paul the first Stephen the fourth Adrian the first and second Leo the third Nicholas the first other Popes of Rome as stiffely upholding them in the West In a Councell of CCCXXXVIII Bishops helde at Constantinople in the yeare of our Lord 754. they were solemnely condemned in another Councell of CCCL Bishops helde at Nice in the yeare 787. they were advanced againe and the veneration of them as much commended This base decree of the second Nicene Councell touching the adoration of Images although it were not by the hundreth part so grosse as that which was