be acceptable to God as he clearly sheweth in his fourteenth Chapter to the Romans Yea he carrieth this liberty further even to an instance which I confess I should never have yeelded to had not he determined in it that is the eating in the Idols Temples of their feasts and eating meat offered to Idols Now if St. Paul did this freely both to Jew and Gentile are not you bound to more obedience when not only charity but duty to the Laws exact it This sheweth how far you are both from the free and charitable spirit of St. Paul N. It is true he complied in these things but it was freely and not when it was exacted as you do of us Next he avoided to do these things when they occasioned scandal which is our case C. You in this bewray great simplicity for St. Paul did not refuse compliance because they were commanded by authority which you do but because certain false brethren came to spy out his liberty to whom he gave place by subjection no not for an hour If therefore any require your compliance as if it were necessary of it self you have reason to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made you free But it is unsufferable peevishness to say if the Magistrate enjoyn a thing declaring that it is still free in it self and only necessary because it is commanded upon that score to refuse obedience And may not offenders as well refuse to undergo the Discipline you enjoyn them and say though the thing be lawful yet it is but indifferent and therefore they cannot obey you because you command things indifferent which as you reason makes them necessary As for the point of scandal do not mistake it as if the displeasing your party were a giving of scandal as many of you weakly think to give scandal then is to stretch your liberty when that freedom of yours may draw others to follow your practice though they have not the same clearness in their mind And hence it appears that to avoid scandal is only an abridging your liberty for the good of your brother If therefore you be not at liberty but already restrained in it by the lawful command of authority you ought not in that case to be disobedient upon a pretence of avoiding scandal But I shall yet examine the matter of conformity more closly And first why do not your Ministers join with our Courts for Church-discipline N. They cannot do it because they are no Legal Courts the Law that established them being taken away so that now they are but the Bishops Deputies C. I have before studied to convince you that all that is divine in Discipline is that scandalous persons be noted and separated from worship but how this shall be administered can be no matter of Religion since wherein are souls concerned whether a Court acting in a parity or with one over them do this providing it be done But waving this whether judge you the Presbyters power for Discipline is founded upon a Divine Law or upon the Act of Parliament no doubt you will say the first well then can the abolishing that Act of Parliament take away your power if not you ought to sit in these Courts and still do your duty N. But this is to sit in a Bishops Court which acknowledgeth his authority C. I pray you suppose the case that the King should abrogate all Laws for the worship of God and declare that all that assemble to worship God shall be understood to worship Mahomet and thereupon oblidge all to meet though you meet not upon that command yet I hope you will still meet to worship God let them interpret that as they please So I say since a power of Jurisdiction is that to which Presbyters lay claim by a divine right they ought to meet in these Courts let the Law call it what it will N. But the Bishop is over them and over-ruleth them as he pleaseth C. But suppose this were true and that Episcopacy is a tyranny in the Church Why ought you not to submit to them as well as you did to the late Tyrants in the State And why as your Ministers say they will be content to take Churches and preach but let Discipline alone which is a quiting of some of their Rights that they may retain the greater May they not as well exercise Discipline though they cannot do it with all the liberty they desire Sure there is nothing but peevishness in this N. Do you think our Ministers would quite their Churches and liberty of Preaching the Gospel which is dearer to them than all the world for any thing but Conscience C. I am not so severe as to doubt but in most of them it is Conscience but I must adde it is ill informed Conscience But what can you pretend for your peoples withdrawing from our Churches since our Religion in Doctrine Worship and Discipline is the same only a small alteration in the point of Government is made N. I am not for separating from you as my practice tells but much may be said for it therefore I will judge none that do it C. Truly I desire to be as sparing in passing Judgements on people as any can be but since separation must be either a necessary duty or a very great sin being a forsaking the unity of the Church it can be no light matter to tear the Body of Christ when there is scarce a colour of pretence for it Now the Schismatical humour among you appears palpably in this that you come sometimes to Church but seldom this seems indeed to be time-serving that you may both evite the punishment of the Law and also retain your interest with your party for if you come once in three moneths you may come every Lords day and if you may come you ought to come otherwise you forsake the assemblings of the Saints and contemn what you call the Ordinances Others of you also joyn with some of us but not with others Now as to our publick transgressions if they be such we are all equally guilty why then make you a difference Others of you come to Churches in the Countrey but do not so in the City what doth this look like but that you have freedom for the thing but will not do it for fear of being noticed which is to prefer the pleasing of men to the pleasing of God And finally some of you joyn with us in the ordinary Worship but will not communicat with us which bewrayes great solly for if you may pray and praise with us which is the spiritual communicating why do you not joyn in the Eucharist which is but solemn praise N. How can we acknowledg them our Pastors who are intruders and are in the places of our faithful shepherds whom you have torn from us C. Supposing it were as you assert yet that will never warrand your separating from them since although by the Law of Moses the eldest of the
transcribed The authors who plead for this are only Courtiers Cannonists and Iesuits Now how are you not ashamed in a matter of such importance to symbolize with the worst gang of the Roman Church for the soberer of them condemn it yet fill heaven and earth with your clamours if in some innocenter things the Church of England seem to symbolize with them N. No you still retain the Papacy you only change the person from the Pope to the King whom you make head of the Church and swear to him in these termes C. This is so impudent a calumny that none but such as have a minde to reproach would use it which I shall clear by giving an account of the whole matter In England you know the Pope beside his general tyranny exercised a particular authority after King Iohn had basely resigned the Crown to him vide Matth. Paris ad An. 1213. When therefore the Reformation was introduced in England and the Papal yoke shaken off the oath of Supremacy was brought in to exclude all forreign jurisdiction and to reinstate the King in his civil authority over all persons and in all causes as well ecclesiastical as civil I confesse Henry the eight did directly set up a civil Papacy but you know the Reformation of England was never dated from his breach with the Bishop of Rome But the oath of Supremacy was never designed to take away the Churches intrinsick power Or to make that the power of Ordination giving Sacraments or Discipline flowed from the King to which he only gives his civil sanction and confirmation However because the words being general might suggest some scrouples they are clearly explained in an Act of Parliament of Queen Elizabeth and in one of the 39 Articles and more fully by the incomparable and blessed Bishop Vsher to whom for his pains King Iames gave thanks in a letter Now this Oath being brought from England to Scotland none ought to pretend scrouples since both the words in themselves are sufficiently plain and the meaning affixed to them in England is yet plainer And we having it from them must be understood to have it in their sense N. But this clearly makes way for Erastianism C. This is one of your mutinous Arts to find out long and hard names and affix them to any thing that displeaseth you In the Old Testament you find the Kings of Iudah frequently medling in Divine matters and the Sannedrim which was a civil court determined in all matters of Religion And you are very ignorant in History if you know not that the Christian Emperours still medled in matters of Religion The first general Councils were called by them as appears by their Synodical Acts and Epistles And by the accounts all the Historians give they also preceeded in the Councils so Constantine at Nice Theodose at Constantinople Earl Candidianus in name of Theodose the second at Ephesus and Martian at Chalcedon It s true in preceeding they only ordered matters but did not decide in them as particularly appears from the Commission given to Earle Candidianus inserted in the Acts of the Ephesin Council They also judged in matters of schisme so Constantine in the Donatist bussinesse even after it had been judged both by Miltiades and Marcus Bishops of Rome and Millan by the Synod of Arles and by the Council of Nice Yea the Code and Basilicks and the Capitolers of Charles the great shew they never thought it without their sphere to make lawes in Ecclesiastick matters The Bishops also were named by them or at least their elections were to be approven by them not excepting the Roman Bishop though he was the proudest pretender of all who after the overthrow of the Western Empire was to send to Constantinople or Ravenna to get his Election ratified and when the Western Empire was reasumed by Charles the great at Rome it was expresly provided that the Emperour should choose the Roman Bishop So Kings medling in Ecclesiastical affaires was never contraverted till the Roman Church swelled to the height of Tyranny and since the Reformation it hath been still stated as one of the differences betwixt us and them N. Well then I hope you who are so much for the Kings Supremacy will not quarrel at this indulgence which is now granted to us C. We are better subjects then to criticize upon much lesse condemn our Soveraigns pleasure in such things neither do we as you did carry all these matters to the Pulpit But I pray how would you Anno 1641. have received such a proposition from the King in favours of the Doctors of Aberdeen or other worthy persons whom you drove away by tumults not by lawes I doubt all your Pulpits should have rung with it And we may guesse at this by the opposition many of you made to the receiving of suspected persons into the Army for the necessary defence of the Countrey then almost overrun by the enemy so that you have now got a favour which you were never in a capacity to have granted to us when you governed and yet you see with what cheerfull obedience we receive his Majesties pleasure even in an instance which may seem most contrary to all our interests Or if any have their jealousies they stiffle them so within their breast that none whisper against authority N. This sayes it is against your will and therefore your compliance to it is forced not voluntary C. So much the greater is our vertue when we obey and submit to things against our inclinations which you never dream of but we are so inclined to peace that if you abuse not this liberty you have got we shall never complain of it nay if it produce the effects which we desire and for which we are assured it is designed we shall rejoyce for it which are to bring you to a more peaceable temper to make you value and love more one of the Noblest and most generous Princes that ever ruled and to dispose you to a brotherly accommodation with us which the Fathers of the Church are ready to offer to you on as fair terms as could be demanded by any rational person whereby if you listen not to them it will appear to the world that you are truly Schismatical And to encline you more to union I intend at our next meeting to give you a full prospect of the state of the antient Church both in their Government Worship and Discipline whereby I doubt not to convince you that their frame was far better suited for promoting all the ends of Religion then ever Presbytery could be But though I have made considerable observations in this besides what is in various Collectors yet I cannot at present give you so particular a plann as I design but shall reserve it till another meeting Mean-while do not abuse our Soveraigns royal goodness nor the tenderness of these he sets over you But let us all jointly pray that God in whose hands all our hearts are
reverent thoughts of one who died so piously and devoutly yet you ceased not to persecute and tear his memorie which in spite of your malice will be glorious to all posterity and that with the height of insolence and barbarity in the very hearing and presence of his Son who now reigneth This was your bold reproving of faults But how little were you in secret reproving faults When you got to the Pulpit there indeed you triumphed because you knew none were to oppose you Now it is certain reproofs should be begun in private and not brought to publick but upon the obstinate rejecting of private admonitions And for what end were you often so bitter to absents This and such other things could be upon no other design but either maliciously to disgrace them or to get a following among your party and the name of faithfull free and zealous preachers N. You speak with very great heat and passion against better men then your self and better preachers than ever any of your way will be C. May be so I wish both they and their Gifts had been seven-fold better than they were but if I shall judge of them either by their printed Sermons or those I have heard they are no extraordinary things And first The half of their Sermons were upon publick matters and what did these concern the Souls of the poor people Was not this for bread to give them a stone Next for the solid practises of a Christian life I scarce ever heard them named except overly Whom heard you preach against the love of the world seeking of esteem quarrelling seeking of revenge anxiety and passion Vertue was little preached and far lesse practised N. I am sure we heard much spiritual Doctrine from them for these are common matters C. Read our Saviours Sermons particularly his longest upon the mount and you shall finde these to be the great subjects of his discourse I confesse they are common but remember the commonest things are often most usefull As for your spiritual Doctrine the true heights of spirituality were as little preached as the living much in abstraction silence and solitude the being often in the still contemplations of God and Christ the becoming dead to all things else spending dayes and nights in secret fastings and prayers how seldom were these things spoken of N. What then make you of them since you dâ— not allow them to be spiritual doctrine C. I shall not deny but they were spiritual buâ— I add they were of a very low size and degree anâ— such as could never carry on the Auditors to anâ— great perfection and most of them were practiseâ— by the Pharisees You know they read the Scripâ— ture and knew it so exactly as no Christians do their Bibles they observed the Sabbath severly they prayed many and long prayers So that these external things are but the fringes of true Religion N. We heard Christ and him crucified preached much C. It was well if ye did but let me tell you iâ— Christ was so preached as to cry up a bare relying on him without obedience to his Gospel as I fear too many did this was a very antichristianâ— way of preaching Christ. Next you got amongst you a world of nice subtilties which you called Cases of Conscience and these were handled with so metaphysical curiosities that I know not whatâ— to make of them And the people that should have been driven out of these into the great practices of a Christian life were too much flattered and humoured in them I am sure our Saviour and the Penmen of Scripture had no such stuff N. This still discovers your carnal heart God help you who understand not the wayes of the Spirit C. Never tell me of other wayes of the Spirit but holinesse charity and humility c. I do not deny but some devout people will be under doubtings and fears but this is a weaknesse which ought not to be fed and humoured in them and such scruples are to be satisfied in private But to hear people who lead but common lives talk of such things is unsufferable I shall not here take notice of their strange methods which they so much admired in preaching though I could tell you how our Saviour and the Apostles used none of these but I shall be sparing in this it not being of so great or necessary concernment N. O but what powerfull Sermons were theirs they made my very heart shake C. I am glad it was so but see that by power you do not mean a tone in the voice a grimace in the face or a gesture and action or some strange phrases these indeed affect the vulgar much but considering people see through them and value them little The voice of God was a still voice and Christ was not heard in the streets N. But there were many converted by the preachings and then there was a great love to the word people running far to hear it C. Truly I am so far from envy that I wish from my Soul where one was converted by you a thousand had been But see that by conversion you do not mean only a change in opinion or outward behaviour which might be done upon interest and remember that there was a kind of Proselytes even to the service of God who thereby became more the children of the devil than they were And see that you do not mistake every heaâ— in the fancie for a conversion one thing I muâ— challenge you of that you call alwayes youâ— preachings the word of God for to term them so and yet to confesse you may be mistaken in them is a contradiction since Gods word is infallible Your texts indeed are the word of God but youâ— glosses on them are but the words of falliblâ— men Now this was a great Art to conciliat â— hudge veneration and authority to your preachings for you called them the words of the Lord and applied all the places of Scripture that belonged to the inspired and infallible preachers unto your selves that so you might be Rabbies in deed N. I but their lives was preaching and theâ— looked like the Gospel indeed C. I am far from denying that there were verâ— good men among you and there are some of theâ— whom I know to have the fear of God before theiâ— eyes but I must say they seem to be little advanced above babes in Christ. For your greaâ— men how strangely did they involve themselveâ— in all businesses and truly a medling temper look not like a devout one but what great spirituality appeared amongst most of them Leaders oâ— Churches and parties should be alwayes commending God and Religion to people and truly hear there is little of this in their mouthes shrewd presumption that there is not too much oâ— it in their hearts N. Alas you know us not we seldom meet but we expound Scripture and have spiritual exercise amongst us C. I confesse you have enough that way but that looks more
as the 〈◊〉 incompâ—rable King in his divine work callâ— them But the Skiâ—â— and Suburbs of Religion And as all the thoughts of that divine Book bewâ—ay an augustnesse which speâ—ks the Author a King indeed so his modeâ—aâ—ion in these matters looks like the paternal clemency which becomes the Father of a Countrey he then adviseth his Son our Gracious Sovereign thus Beware of exasperating any Factioâ—s by the crossnesse and asperity of some menâ— passions humours or private opinions imployed by you grounded only upon the differences in lesseâ— matters which are but the Skiâ—s and Suburbâ— of Religion wherein a charitable connivanceâ— and Christian-â—ollerâ—tion often dissipaâ—â— their strength whâ—â—â—ougher opposition fortifies and puts the despised and oppressed party into such combinations as may most enable them to get a full revenge on those they count their persecutors who are commonly assisted by that Vulgar commiseration which attends all that are said to suffer under the notion of Religion And a little after Take heed that outward circumstances and formalities of Religion devour not all or the best incouragements of Learning Industry and Piety Thus that Great and glorious Prince N. By this it seems you are a Latitudinarian and I have heard much ill of these new sort of people C. Truly I own no name but that of Jesus Christ in which I was baptized and these are invidious Arts to coyn names of parties and to affix them on such as disown them I am and desire to be a sincere Christian but of no party nor Sect. But if by latitude you mean charity truly I must tell you I glory in it which is no newer way than the new commandment which our Saviour gave to his Disciples to love one another as he loved them N. I confesse they say you live very good lives but you have dangerous and loose principles C. Are you not strange people who fasten such Characters on men whose conversations you cannot disprove for what can you call an Atheist but a man of dangerous and loose principles these are uncharitable aspersions as if not to be so hidebound and starcht on every trifle as you are were to be loose and dangerous men N. Some say you are strong witted people and so they suspect you of Atheism C. It seems they are weak witted people who talk so since though some foolish pretenders to wit are Atheists yet no sort of men discover their folly as well as wickednesse so much as these do And that cursed Pest is hated by none more than us who perhaps can give better and more convincing accounts of these principles of Religion that there is a God a life to come and that the Scriptures are the word of God than these who so charge us But what unchristian work is it thus to disgrace us N. Many of you are suspect of Socinianism for you all magnifie reason and are often telling how rational a thing Christian Religion is which they also do C. Indeed if to call Religion a rational worship or reasonable service make a Socinian wâ— are such and so was St. Paul but as for the horrid errours of Socinus his School touching thâ— Trinity Christs satisfaction Gods prescience â— these we condemn and Anathematize and wâ— judge it most suitable to reason that in these sublime Mysteries Divine Revelations should bâ— our rule But notwithstanding of this we wiâ—â— be very loath to deny that Christian Religioâ— both in its Articles of Belief and Precepts â— Practice is highly congruous to the dictates â— right reason And we judge to propose them sâ— shall be a convincing way to commend them all clear-witted men And certainly God having created man rational the highest accomplishment of his nature which is Religion must not be contrary but suitable to his supreme faculty N. It seems you are sound here but I fear you Latitudinarians are Papists at least Cassandrians C. You are resolved to charge us with one heinous thing or another and when one fails you you catch hold on another We are far from that height of uncharitablenesse which some of you own of damning all Papists since they hold the foundation Jesus Christ though they build upon it wood hay and stubble neither will we stifly say that all things controverted betwixt the reformed Churches and them are matters of Salvation yet in the greater controversies with them we condemn them such as are the Popes supremacy the Churches infallibility the Corporal presence the worshipping Images Saints Angels Purgatory prayer for the Dead withholding the Chalice worshipping in an unknown tongue these with many moe we disprove and dislike as much and perhaps on clearer grounds than you do Yet we are such lovers of the unity of the Catholick Church that we much honour and esteem all who have studied to bring things to a temper though they have not come up to the desired length N. But how comes it that amongst all the Articles of Popery you never reckon the merits of good works nor Justification by them since these are their chiefest errours C. I have not given a full enumeration of all that is wrong in that Church but for good works though many of them particularly the Jâ—suits have written very harshly in that matters and before the Reformation generally all the Preachers did intollerably extol not so much morally good works as the superstitious and tyrannical injunctions of the Stepdame of Rome yet now it is clear the more sober of them expound Merits in a sense which no Protestant can disown to wit that they are actions so acceptable to God that he who is faithfull in his promises will certainly reward them Though I have no fondnesse on the term Merit which way soever expounded it still sounds somewhat too high for a creature in reference to his Creator much more heartily do I reject the term Condign N. What â—ay you of Justification by faith only sure this is a fundamental matter C. There is nothing in Scripture more clearly set down than the Doctrine of Justification but as it is generally explained there is nothing more nice or subtill Justification and condemnation are two opposite legal terms relating to the Judgment shall be given out at the last day for though we are said to be now justified as the unbelieving are said to be condemned already this is only that we are now in the state of such as shall be solemnly justified or condemned Now at â—he great Day we must give 〈◊〉 â—â—ount of our actions and we must be judged accordingly but since all must be condemned if God enter in Judgement with them therefore God gave his Son to the death for us that thereby we might obtain Salvation and all Iudgement is by the â—â—ther committed to the Son And Jesus Christ hath proposed â—ife through his death to as many 〈◊〉 receive his Gospel and live according â—o it And as that which gives us â—â—title to the â—â—vour of God is the blood of
Metamorphose St. James counts lust the source of Warre But now Religion proves the cause of jarre Inverted Chymistry Which turns the Gold to base allay Must Rome be damn'd as Antichrist Because it to unerring Chair pretends And forth as Oracles its dictates sends While each 'mong us to that height raise their creast And do expect that all to them submit Conceiting that to errour proof's their wit But once a Woman did usurp that Chair That stain wipe off could never any care Yet now 'gainst us that Sex conspires And to our Crown with insolence aspires Each Dame a Sybill grows and doth refuse To stoop to wisest sort and our just yoke abuse The names of factions are infus'd In harmless infancy which early thus abus'd Retains the venome it from breast derives All roads are block't by which the truth arrives Fond prejudice doth so bemist Trepaning custome doth so twist Their minds to errour that it vain And bootless labour proves them to regain IV. Disputing is as Oyl to raging flame They glory in their sufferings pompous name And by resisting do increase their fame All gentleness they think a cheat And dread the enemy most when he doth treat God bless me what disease is this Whose cure all Medicines do miss They 'r wanton if we cordials use Sure goodness they abuse Or if to abate the feverish heat Some noisome blood we would let out Then grows the madness of the frantick rout If fines as Medicines their bowels drain Then they aloud of grinding do complain This strange distemper doth all skill defy Physicians hopes still falsify But as a joynt which Gangrene doth corrupt Must be cut off from the sound lumpâ— Better the body grow a stump Than by such members bankerrupt Yet often doth this Hydra multiply When cropt one head to seven will fructify Or as a tree which with new force doth spring When lopt by pruner is its over spreading wing So doth this poysonous Weed still further spread And as the Camomine grow the more it's tread The Cockle still with Wheat will blend Till winnowing flames to mixture put an end Good Grains with Tares may chance to be pull'd up Delay their doom till brimfull be their cup. Then chaffed justice shall the chaff devour And Angel-reapers bring the just to Heavens floor FINIS A continuation of the former Conference DIALOGUE VII C. I Am heartily glad of this opportunity of meeting with you again and will be more glad to find our last Conference producing the effect design'd by it which was to beget in you a true sense of Religion that you may walk worthy of your high and holy calling for I can have no greater joy than to see you walking in the truth N. I thank you for being so concerned in the welfare of my Soul and by the grace of God I shall make it my daily work to be perfecting holinesse in his fear But I must be on my guard when I converse with you since you publish our private discourses which I do not take kindly for you take advantage from my weakness and by running me down make the whole party suffer C. The true reason why I consented to the publishing of our Conference for I candidly assure you I did no more but give my consent to him who being pleased with the written account of it desired to make it publick was since I thought I had allayed a great deal of the heat I met with in you upon these matters I presumed it might produce the like good effect in others If in any thing I seem to take too great advantage against you it is with reason neither is it an humour of drolling or insulting that makes me sometimes a little pleasant since in all Dialogues you will find the transitions sweetned with somewhat of that even when the gravest matters are treated of N. Some charge you with Socinianism others with Popery others with Arminianism and others with Quakerism I confesse their grounds seem'd to me very slender but they say it is very clear and tell their followers to shun you as a pest C. God forgive their malice I pray God it be not laid to their charge at the last day that they so falsly and injuriously reproach me I know the Arts of some well they will tell their people that we are unsound and Heterodox and back their hard words with grave nods and wry faces and the poor people too inured to implicit faith give an undoubted credit to what they say But do they understand things who charge a man with Socinianism who believeth that Christ is the eternal Son of God and hopes for salvation only through his blood and they are as well versed in Popery who charge me with it for can he be heretical in Justification who ascribes all we receive in this life and in that to come to the love and grace of God through Jesus Christ And you know all that Calvin and his followers aim at in the matter of Arminius his points is that all ouâ— good be ascribed to God how then can he be erroneous in this matter who asserts that But as for Quakerism the grounds on which they tax me of that are so ridiculous that I am ashamed to name them and I assure you I am so far from inclining to Quakers that I look on that Sect as one of the subtillest devices yet broached for the overthrow of Christian Religion But if that spirit be not the womb from whence all these Sects and errours have sprung amongst us let all that look on judge none falling to them in this Country but such as were formerly most violent in their way And though I am sure they are far enough from being Quakers yet their principles have a natural tendency that way whence think you have they suckt their rejecting of all forms and order under â— pretence that the Spirit is not to be prelimited but from your notions against Liturgies and for extemporany heats Next the liberty you take to medle in matters too high for you and judge of every thing without thinking you are bound to reverence either the present or antient Church I plead not for implicit faith opens a wide door for their pretensions to a liberty of the Spirit which at once renounceth all modesty and humility Next your humour of separation begets that giddiness in people that no wonder they being shaken from the unity of the Church also stagger through unbeleef As also many of you cherish in your followers a dejection of mind too much as if Religion which gives a man a right to the purest joyes should become a life of doubting and this introduceth a spirit of Melancholy which clearly makes way to that pretended Enthusiasm And thus you may see who are to be blamed for the progresse that way makes amongst us you having prepared the people so to it But still I assure you though I cannot but see the faults too many amongst you
Episcopacy but for your unruly humours and practices make such complaints to God as if heaven and earth were mixed and adapt all the Lamentations of Ieremiah to your sorrie matters as if the overthrow of Presbytery were to be compared to the Babylonish captivity And see if the conclusion of the Apology and all your other writtings run not in this stile Now were your way what you imagine it to be you should rejoyce that you are called to suffer for it and not to make such tragical complaints And I am sure your bitterness against those whom you call your enemies looks nothing like the mildnesse of Christ or the primitive Sufferers who carried with all gentlenesse towards their persecutors in meeknesse instructing those that opposed them And this doth too palpably declare you are strangers to the serene and dove-like spirit of the Gospel N. You alwayes run to the primitive Christians but far fowles have fair feathers and if you examine the practice of the Reformers they universally resisted the Magistrate and carried on the Reformation by Arms and how then dare you charge the Doctrine of resistance with Rebellion since you thereby stain that glorious Work C. I assure you I have a great veneration for the Reformers and look on them as persons sent of God to rescue his Church from the grosse superstition and Idolatry had overspred it but for all that you must pardon me still to prefer the primitive Christians to them As for casting reproaches on them it shall quickly appear whither of us be the more guilty in it I will therefore from undeniable evidence of History convince you of the falshood of that vulgar errour that the Reformation was carried on by restistance and shall begin with the Waldenses who resisted not the King of France as is clear in the History notwithstanding of their unparallelled persecutions when they were destroyed by thousands Belle forrest tells that 60000 were killed in one town of Beziers Spond ad an 1209. tells of seven thousand being murdered at once in one Church It is true there were Wars betwixt the Count of Monfort and the Count of Tholouse but the Count of Tholouse was a Peer of France And the Peers by the Constitution of Hugo Capit were rather vassals then subjects to the King besides he only sought against Monfort So Petrus Vallisarnensis Hist. Albig And in the Counc of Monpellier the Dominions of Tholouse were given to Simon Monfort but not by the King neither was the Legate well pleased that the Kings Son came and took the crosse lest he might thereby pretend some right in these Dominions which the Pope pretended were his Simon Monfort therefore was a bloody Emissary of the Popes and not authorized by Philip August then King of France who gave no other concurrence to the War save that he permitted his Subjects to Arm in it so here was no resistance of Subjects against their Soveraign N. But did not the Bohemians under Zisca fight and resist when the Challice was denied them C. In the general consider that the Crown of Bohem is elective in which case certainly the States of a Kingdom share more largely of the Soveraign power Besides he from whom we have the best account of the Bohemian Churches Comenius in ordine unitatis Bohemicae gives but a slender character of Zisca and his bussinesse extolling him chiefly as a good souldier Besides the justifiers of the late Bohemian Wars never run upon this strain of subjects resisting their Soveraign upon the account of Religion but upon the lawes and liberties of that elective Kingdome Neither were the Protestants too well satisfied with the last Bohemian-bussinesse yea King Iames notwithstanding of his interest in the elected King was no way cordial for it these two I have joined together because the Scene was the same though the interval was great N. But you know there was fighting in Germany upon the account of Religion C. This showes how overly you read History when you bring this as a president When Luther rose the Duke of Saxe being moved of God did receive the Reformation peaceably into his principalities without any force and his example was followed by other Princes and free cities but in the year 1524. and 1525. there arose a War in Germany fomented by some troublesome Preachers as saith the Historian who pretended the liberty of the Gospel for their chief quarrell and this was called the War of the Rusticks And they appealing to Luther's judgement he wrote again and again to them condemning what they did as an execrable and cursed Rebellion He saith indeed it was a great wickednesse in their Princes to force their consciences but that did not at all excuse them and tells how far he himself had been ever from such courses and he calles those that somented the Rebellion vilains and not content with this he stirred up the protestant Princes against them who fought them and broke them And in this I desire you will not consider the tatles of some ignorant persons but read the History it self and those excellent papers of Luther for which I refer you to Sleidan Lib. 5. And he will give you full satisfaction Afterwards the Duke of Brunsuick and some other Princes of Germany did invade their neighbour protestant Princes and combined in a league for the destruction of Lutheranisme whereupon the Duke of Saxe the Langrave of Hessen and other Princes and free cities met at Smalcald to unite among themselves but Luther was dissatisfied with this till their Lawyers shewed him how by the bulla aurea and other constitutions of the German Empire it was lawfull for them to defend themselves whereupon he consenting they entered into that famous League And every one who knowes any thing of that Empire knowes well that the Princes are Soveraigns within themselves and that the Emperour is only the head of the union As for the War that afterwards followed betwixt Charles the 5th and the Duke of Saxe besides that the Duke of Saxe was free to defend himself as I have told Charles the 5th declared it was not for Religion he fought whatever his design was neither did all the Princes of the Religion join against him The Electors of Cullen and Pallatine both Protestants lay neuters and the Elector of Brandenburg and Maurice afterwards Elector of Saxe armed for the Emperour So you may see what pitifull Historians they are who alledge the precedent of Germany In Sweden King Gustavus Anno 1524. with the States of that Kingdom peaceably received the Reformation neither were their any broils about it till about seventy years after that Sigismond King of Polland whom notwithstanding of his being Papist they received for their King he being the son of the former King of Sweden and peaceably obeyed him was by force entring the Kingdom resolving to root out the Protestant Religion Whereupon Vide Decret in comitiis Lincop Anno 1660. they deposed him and choosed his Uncle
Charles King no strange thing in the Swedenish History that being an Elective Crown before the Year 1644. that the States received Gustavus then reigning for their Hereditary King but still the States retained the supream Authority as may appear by all their writs Nor was it any wonder if they who had but a while before crept out of an Elective Kingdom into an Hereditary could not brook Sigismond his tyrannical invasion And if this serve not to vindicat the Swedes at least the Reformation was not introduced by Wars among them neither were ever the actions of that State lookt upon as a precedent to others In Denmark Frederick the first with the States of that Kingdom received the Reformation peaceably nor was there any violence used N. But you cannot deny there was force used in Helvetia and Geneve C. This shews what a superficial Reader of History you are In Switzerland the Reformation was peaceablie received by Zurich the first and chief Canton of that State and other Towns But other Cantons maligning them for this at the instigation of the Pope and his instruments injured them so that at length it broke out into a civil War wherein they of Zurich as they were surprized by them so continued to be purely defenders vide Sleid. lib. 8. But you know Helvetia ill if you know not that the Cantons are no way subject to one another and are free States only united in a League as are the seven Provinces So that in their Treaties with France and other Princes they often Treat sever'dly Vide Siml de Rep. Helv. As for Geneve the Bishop fled from it out of a pannick fear when the Reformation was received but no force was used to drive him out Sleid. lib. 6. And beside Geneve was a free Town neither subject to the Bishop nor the Duke of Savoy Vide Siml de Rep. Helv. lib. 10. de Geneve N. What say you to the War in the Netherlands C. I say still it was not for Religion they sought Papists and Protestants jointly concurring And C. Egmond and C. Horn who were beheaded by the Duke of Alve as the chief instruments in it died both Papists yea the State by a placart declared it scandalous to say they fought for Religion the true ground of the quarrel as you may read in all the Histories was that their Prince was not an absolute Soveraign but limited in his power and that by expresse compact they might use force if he transgressed his limits which he did most notoriously and tirandically and for all this I refer you to Grotius de Antiquitate Bataviae in lib. Ann. who yet is one of the strongest pleaders for subjection to Magistracy N. But nothing of this can be alledged to palliat the French civil Wars C. The first civil Wars were mannaged by the Princes of the blood who by the Laws of that Crown are not ordinarie subjects Besides the Wars were begun in the minority of the King in which case the powers of the Princes is greater I do not for all this deny their following Wars were direct rebellion but consider the fierce spirit of that Nation ready to fight for any thing and you must confesse it was not Religion but their temper that was to be blamed but now many of the eminent men of that Church are fully convinced of the evil of these courses and do ingenuouslie condemn them Yea in the Wars of the last King one of the glories of our Nation Cameron at Mountowban directly preached against their courses and taxed them of Rebellion N. But if that was Rebellion how did the late King of Britain give assistance to the Rochellers in the last Wars C. There was a particular reason in that as appears from the account the illustrious Duke of Rohan gives of it for the King of Britain had interposed in the former pacification and had given surety to the Protestants that the French King should religiously observe the agreement But the King of France violating this the King of Britain thereby receiving so publick an injurie and affront was oblidged in honour to assist them which for his part was most just whatever the Subjects of France their part in it might be And thus I have cleared the Churches abroad of that injurious stain you brand them with And by this let all men judge whether you or I do them the best office But to come to our own Britain you know it is the glory of the English Reformation that it was stained with no blood save that of Martyrs which was its chief ornament Yea though a Popish and persecuting Queen interveened betwixt the first Reformation of King Edward and the second of Queen Elizabeth yet none rebelled For that of Wyat was not upon the account of Religion but in opposition to the matching with King Philip of Spain It is true Scotland hath not that glory but as we were long allyed to France so we have too much of their temper so that it passeth as a common saying of Scots-men praefervida Scotorum ingenia And all that travelled the world can witnesse that we were not approven in our late rebellion abroad I shall not instance what Diodati Spanhem Rivet Salmasius Blondel Amerald de Moulin and many of the greatest and most famed Forreign Divines have publickly expressed against it Some in Print others in publick discourses and Sermons One thing I will not passe by that in the consistory of Charrenton they made an Act that no man should be barred the Communion for the Scots excommunication except it were for a crime and so told the late Bishop of Orkney then of Galloway that the pretended excommunication of Scotland should no way hinder their receiving him to their Communion and this was a loud declaration of their disowning and condemning the Scots practices N. But tell me ingenuously Are there no precedents in History for Subjects fighting upon the account of Religion and have none of the Writters of the Church asserted it C. Yes there have and I will deal ingenously with you upon this head The first I know is Pope Gregory the seventh who armed the subjects of Germany against Henry the fourth Emperour upon the account of Religion because the Emperour laid claime to the investitures of Bishops they being then secular Princes And this prospering so well in the hands of Hildebrand other Popes made no bones upon any displeasure they conceived either against King or Emperour to take his Kingdom from him and free his subjects from their obedience to him alwayes pretending some matter of Religion as you may read particularly in the History of Frederick the first Frederick the second Lewis of Baviere Emperours Philip Le bell and Lewis the 12th of France Henry the second and Iohn of England Conradine of Naples and Charles of Navarre These are the eldest precedents I meet with in History for your bussinesse and the latest is the holy League of France from which our whole matter seems