Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	church_n	government_n	kingdom_n	3,695	5	5.8013	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A33981	The vindication of liturgies, lately published by Dr. Falkner, proved no vindication of the lawfulness, usefulness, and antiquity of set-forms of publick ministerial prayer to be generally used by, or imposed on all ministers, and consequently an answer to a book, intituled, A reasonable account why some pious nonconformists judge it sinful, for them to perform their ministerial acts in by the prescribed forms of others : wherein with an answer to what Dr. Falkner hath said in the book aforesaid, the original principles are discovered, from whence the different apprehensions of men in this point arise / by the author of the Reasonable account, and Supplement to it.	Collinges, John, 1623-1690.	1681 (1681)	Wing C5345; ESTC R37651	143,061	307

the Will of God that his Ministers or People should be left at liberty And Christians ought not to yield Principles which are improveable against them to carry them on to further sins 7. But in the next place he comes to consider Whether it be not lawful to forbear Prayers conceived Prayers at least before and after Sermons he thinks it is Well then if it be lawful say our Conformable Divines it may be commanded by Superiors and such commands ought to be obeyed by Inferiors Then it is true which I said That Superiors may wholly in Publick Worship suppress the Gift of Prayer 8. But what shall we say for Families p. 200 he thinks a well composed Form may be used in a Family I think so too if he that Ministreth hath not the Gift of Prayer or if it be a form composed by himself But the Question is VVhether Superiors may command the use of such and no other He seemeth to conclude they may for he determineth them lawful and according to the Principle That Superiors may command even in the Worship of God what is lawful not what is necessary only They may also as to Families suppress the use of our Gift of Prayer or Ability to express our selves to God in Prayer So it is granted that by a Superiors command the Exercise of the Ministerial Gift of Prayer may be shut out of all Churches and all Families and indeed it is so as to a great many 9. Well then may we pray otherwise then by Forms in our Closet admitting Superiors did command us also there to pray only by Forms He tells us p. 203. That Forms of Prayer are of excellent and singular use in Families and Closets But p. 202. he tells us as to Closets That if any Superior should forbid all such Confessions and Petitions in Closets this being against the duty of a Creature and a Christian ought not to be submitted to So then the Superior in this case is no Superior But I pray why Where hath God given the Superior a licence to determine the words of Vocal Prayer in one place more then in another I am sure it is not in Scripture and I cannot conceive how it should be in Nature 10. Our Answerer offers but one thing in reason for it Because there are many things concerning the Persons own particular wants which cannot be comprized in a Form are needful matters of his private and retired Devotions p. 201. Will not the same reason hold for leaving Forms of Prayer at liberty to be used or not used in publick Congregations What State what Church almost is there that every Month hath not some new particular wants I will not say which cannot be comprized in a Form but which cannot be comprized in the same Form and if Forms for the Publick must upon this account be renewed every Moon why may they not or should they not for persons be renewed every night that is only matter of trouble 11. Here 's one great evil of standing Forms they cannot provide for the greatest Emergencies Within these Two years last past we have had as great issues of Providence with reference both to our most Sacred Soveraigns Life our Religion and Civil Government as ever any Nation or Church in the World had as great things to give God special thanks and great praise for as great things to begg of God for our Bodies our Souls our Posterity What hath there been in all our publick Forms for it How many Congregations have there been where God hath not had one Thanksgiving for so great Discovery or one Prayer imploring him either to avert the dangers feared or his assistance to our King and Councels for the fuller discovery of the wickedness and perfecting our deliverence I believe since Christ had a Church upon the Earth and an interest in any Kingdom of the Extent of ours an instance cannot be given where the King and Parliament unanimously and without any persons contradiction of it declared That they were fully satisfied by the proofs they had heard that there then was and for divers years last past ●ad been an Horrid and Treasonable Plot and Conspiracy contrived and carried on by those of the Popish Religion for the Murthering of his Majesties Sacred Person and for subverting the Protestant Religion and the Ancient and Established Government of the Kingdom Which was done both in October and November 1678 and again March 25. 1679. And God received so few special Praises for our deliverance or heard so few Special Petitions in reference to it from multitudes of the Ministry of the Nation in their Publick Services nor indeed could it be helped considering they were tyed to Publick Forms composed many years before any such thing appeared 12. Another mischief is this That upon publick Emergencies all Ministers are tyed to such Petitions as those who make the Forms will prepare which very little or nothing at all concern the special providence and where they concern it very little or nothing at all How much is God either mocked or deprived of his Glory We have had so late and famous an Instance as no more plain one can be The King and Parliament in Nov. 1678 had declared their full satisfaction as before and the Parliament applyed themselves to his Majesty for a Solemn Publick Fast His Majesty proclaimed it 13. No. 1678. and in order to it gave Order for Forms of Prayer proper for it to be made One Form was made in which was not any thing new of that nature This was complained of in Parliament They Voted another Address complaining of it and desiring some special Forms might be made taking notice of an Horrid Popish Plot c. His Majesty gave present Order accordingly A Second was made which came out but 4 or 5 days before the Fast day but time enough to be sent into the Country But on the Lords day a Member of the House complained to the House of Commons that in that there was not one word of Popish Plots c. upon this the House Voted a third Address to his Majesty about it his Majesty presently Ordered it then the words Popish Plots came in but it was too late to send it in that Form all over England We trust the King and Parliament of England will from hence conclude how unreasonable a thing it is to tye up all Ministers to Publick Forms Since that time how many occasions have been for special Petitions and Thanksgivings but in very many I will not say most Congregations God hath lost that acknowledgment of his influence upon Humane Affairs because the Ministers have been tyed to their Old Forms And from hence I doubt not to say but in a great measure it is That not a few Ministers and multitudes of People have found no difficulty either to deny there was any such Plot or is any or to lessen it and turn it to a ridicule or to insinuate that honest Protestants were

do but then he did do because he was ascending to his Father John 14.18 with many others of like import proveth this And it is certain that till that time the Apostles had very imperfect Knowledge of the great Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven the Vnion of Christ and his Father John 14.8 9. The Sitting at Christs right hand in his Kingdom c. And in this state and during this state it is not unreasonable to think Christ should give his Disciples a Form of Prayer at their request yea of words to be used in Prayer 9. In the 34 Thesis these Learned Professors determine in the case as to such as are Provectiores better grown for these they judiciously determine and especially for those amongst them that are Pastors of Churches that it was advantageous yea upon the point necessary for them To stir up in themselves the Gift of Praying Publickly without Forms 1. That they might be able to Pray upon all occasions and emergencies 2. That they might be like the Holy Men Prophets and Apostles who so Prayed and tells them this was no hard thing to attain if they observed the due Method of Prayer and frequently exercised themselves in it 10. So that I see no difference betwixt the judgments of Dr. Ames and the Professors of Leyden in the case Those of the Province of the Walachrians tell us They as to this Question agree with these If they afterward say any thing which doth not agree with them we are not concerned to justifie or to follow them For Mr. Calvins opinion in Epist ad Protectorem 87 If our Reader will but consider that it was wrote at a time when Popery was but turning out of England when the Nation h●d but very few Bibles in our own Languages and very few Protestants that could read them he will not wonder at Mr. Calvins ●udgment Those who are most against imposing Forms Vniversally now would have been as much for an Vniversal imposing of them then during such a state and do think it necessary now if Spain or Portugal were Reformed The Priests in corrupt Churches I mean the generality of them seldom complying with a Reformation and the number of others who will humble themselves as they think to the work of the Ministry and have any abilities for it being every where very small Our Vindicator laying no great stress upon this Testimony as he tells p. 111. we see no great reason to contend for the Sense it being but the Sense of a particular Clasis and we being fully of the mind of those great persons with whom they profess to agree it is no great matter whether we agree with them or no because they cannot agree with themselves as our Answerer noteth 11. Our Vindicator goeth on and telleth us he had in his Libertas Ecclesiastica brought three Arguments to prove That forms of Prayer were of no disadvantage to Piety The first was From Gods prescribing a constant form of Prayer for the Jewish offerings and for the Priests blessing our Saviours directing the Lords Prayer but the Holy God our Blessed Saviour would not impose what is of its own nature an hindrance to Godliness Piety and Religion My Answer was to this Sense That it was wild in a matter of Worship especially to conclude mans power from Gods fact That because God might prescribe therefore man might prescribe Our Vindicator here now tells us He is not so void of all Reverence to God as so much as to think so I truely hope so much less so void of all sense and Reason but what then is that which our Answerer would conclude from thence That these things cannot prejudice Religion he saith 12. If we could once agree upon terms I would hope all sober and good men would agree That which makes us differ is we use General terms of Religion Piety The Church Schisme Seperation c. and will never let one another understand what we mean by them Piety and Religion here are these aequivocal Terms that deceive one party We are here arguing about Prayer as it is a part of the Instituted Worship of God and in no other sense Instituted Worship is not what is commanded by the Law of Nature but by the Will of God revealed in his Word We say that it is thus commanded by God not onely that we should pray but that we should pray with the utmost Attention of our thoughts to our work and with the utmost intention of our mind and pious fervour This say we we profess we cannot do by forms Yes saith our Vindicator you may or else God would never have prescribed forms of Prayer and Blessing to the Jewish Priests nor Christ to his Disciples How doth this follow Is God then obliged in a piece of Service which is no service to him but only because he so willed it to will it to all Persons and at all times under the same Circumstances Who will deny a Prince the liberty to direct one Subject to perform his Homage to him one way and another to pay it another way yea though the Act of Homage be specifically the same And shall we deny God that liberty who is the most free of all Agents and the King of Kings 14. So that the Answerer either very weakly or very invidiously saith That the sense of my Answer is That the God of infinite Goodness and Purity may appoint and enjoyn and consequently may be pleased with such things as in their own Nature are hurtful to Piety and oppose Piety and Goodness in the World when as the sense of my Answer as is obvious to every understanding Reader is no more then this That the God of infinite liberty to direct his Homage in what manner he pleaseth may appoint several persons in several ages and under several dispensations yea and several persons in the same age to Worship him in the same specifical Acts of Worship several ways as he pleaseth and each of them because he so appoints them shall be Pious Religious Good and Pure and that as to those Persons whom he so commands most Good Pious and Religious 14. And upon this foundation it was That it was Pious to the Jews to Worship God by the Levitical Offerings c. which to us would be impious not only because he hath expresly forbidden them but because he hath not commanded us any such thing And if God or Christ did prescribe Forms of Prayer or Praise to the Jews or to some particular Christians under some particular Circumstances the use of them as to them or any under the same Circumstances may be Pious and Religious and doubtless is so and yet not so to others who are or may be under other Circumstances and other Precepts relating to them as under such Circumstances and this is our very Case Persons that have not Abilities fitly to express their Minds to God in Prayer are under different Circumstances from those who have such Abilities

joyneth with him who Ministreth in Prayer For the Ministers reading a Form can be no part of External Worship because in it he is neither directed by the Light of Nature nor by the Will of God in Scripture It is only an help to himself or others or both to order himself and people by in their Mentall Prayers 7. Neither can I see how it can properly be called a Mean unless the Form be particularly by God directed of Mental Prayer For in reason the mean of meer internal adorotion must be an Ability so to adore which a man hath partly from Nature whence is his Ability to think and conceive partly from the influence of the Holy Spirit of Prayer and Supplication 8. His next Observation is as idle as his Reflection in that Paragraph founded upon it is impertinent it is this p. 179. That according to this Argument the conceptions and expressions of him who Prayeth without a Form are as much forbidden as the use of Forms is pretended to be because God hath not prescribed these Expressions I had told him that both the Light of Nature and the Will of God declared in his Word 1 Tim. 4.14 1 Pet. 4.10 Rom. 12. have shewed us That an ability fitly to express our minds that is our wants and desires to God in Prayer is the means which God hath prescribed for Vocal Prayer how well he hath disproved what I said let the Reader judge from my reply so that in further answer to this his Observation I shall but oppose another observation and commend it to my Reader viz. That he hath answered my Argument learnedly by begging the Question for this was the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 betwixt us 9. But yet because our Author hath no mind to treat of Means and to grant us that Means as well as Acts and Parts of Divine Worship must have a Divine Institution Let us take him at his own concession That parts of Worship must have such an Institution this he yieldeth in terminis p. 177. I say that words in Vocal Prayer are parts of Worship his friend Capellus he owns hath affirmed it That by keeping to the constant use of a Form men make it a proper part of Worship This he doth not like But why then in the very same case about Forms of Prayer doth he choke us with what Capellus hath said Vindicat. p. 167 173 201. It is a just Rule in Law That he who hath produced a Witness in the same cause for himself hath granted him a sufficient Witness and shall never be allowed to except against him as not such I hope if Capellus his Authority be valuable against us it is so for us 10. But I have another Argument to prove that Forms of Prayer Vniversally imposed are parts of Prayer proper parts of Prayer that is Vocal Prayer which alone is Ministerial Prayer For the parts of that religious Action are Two The one is Internal which lyeth in the Motions of the Heart and Affections The other is External which are Our words And these are the two Essential parts of Worship in that Prayer take away either of them and it is no Prayer that is no Ministerial Vocal Prayer And these or those words are essential parts of this or that Ministerial Vocal Prayer Now if Men without express direction from God may prescribe us words they may prescribe an Essential part of VVorship which our Vindicator justly denieth they may 11. His third Observation p. 182. is That in his Libertas Ecclesiastica 2. Sect. Chap. 1. He hath largely proved That it is a false and dangerous Position to say that nothing may be used or appointed in Gods Worship besides necessary Circumstances of humane Actions but what is appointed by God himself He addeth here That it is destructive to Publick VVorship and Religion For since God hath commanded us to pray but hath not in all Acts of Worship enjoyned our words or the performance of this duty with or without a Form it must needs according to this Position be done neither by a Form nor without because both by consequence are forbidden being not prescribed Then he telleth us That God hath not prescribed what sort of bread or wine should be used in the Supper of the Lord nor what Psalms should be sang To which I reply 12. I am not at leisure to reply to all he hath said in 72 pages of his Libertas Ecclesiast but I do not remember that he hath there said That Men may appoint Essential or integral parts of VVorship if he hath I am sure he hath denyed it here p. 177. Now I have both said and proved that words are an Essential part of Ministerial Vocal Prayer If there be no words used there can be no such thing therefore by our Answerers own concession words in this Prayer must be directed by the Light of Nature or by the VVill of God VVriten in his Word I have shewed that Gods VVill is revealed in the cause both in the Light of Nature which directeth us to express our own thoughts in our own words and by his VVill revealed commanding us to Minister our Gifts and according as we have received the G●ft or Grace Neither do I remember that our Vindicator hath asserted That Men not divinely authorized and inspired for that end may appoint Means of VVorship I am sure in this Book he is very shy of it if he hath said any such thing elsewhere it is false and contrary to the Second Commandment For any appointments of other things in about or relating to the Worship of God we are not here disputing nor was the Question stated with reference to them 13. It is rashly if no worse said That there can be no Publick Worship or Religion according to that Position For it plainly inferreth That in the Churches of God in Scotland Holland France New England c. there is no Publick Religion or VVorship for it is certain that in all or most of them there are no Forms of Prayer Vniversally used or imposed tho there be in some of them some made and left at liberty to be used or not used 14. Whereas he saith That according to this Position there can be no Administration of the Sacraments because according to this Principle all Bread and VVine is forbidden to be used in that Ordinance because the particular kind of Bread and Wine is not prescribed It proceedeth upon this Hypothesis which is false That we say That nothing is left to our liberty in about or relating to the Worship of God because we say no Acts Parts or Means of VVorship are left to liberty We say that particular Phrases in Prayer and Preaching so the particular kinds of Bread and VVine to be used in the Lords Supper are left to liberty but yet words are not left to liberty Nor whether any Bread or Wine should be used are not left to liberty and where God hath left any thing to

I could believe that I ought to do or believe what the Church or my Superiors believe because they so believe or do or command me to do so tho I veril● believe it sinful I should think it most eligible to be of that Church which pretends to an Infallible head 7. And I humbly offer it to the Consideration of those who are or who are like to be our Legislators whether it be possible that that Religion can long be kept out if men may thus teach Blind Obedience the very mother of it and as others have done confidently assert not only a Real but a Corporeal presence of Christ in the Sacrament so ascribing such a body to Christ as is no true body invisible illocal multi present c. yea and Purgatory too leaving order for Prayers to be made for their Souls departed as others have done to instance in no more particulars of very many and when they have defended themselves with the most nice unintelligible distinctions they can the best of this is but to teach people Quam prope ad peccatum sine peccato licet accede re which it is a thousand to one if people the generality at least can understand 8. To take off my Answer to the 10th Argument for the 8th and 9th he will not own he refers to what he said before concerning the necessity of Vniformity which I denyed I shall also refer my Reader to what I have before said I do presume my instance from the Decree of Darius was good enough to prove that all Superiors Precepts for Vniformity in Worship are not lawful 9. What he saith p. 253 upon my quotation of Heb. 5.1 to prove the due notion of a publick Minister in the Worship of God He is a person taken from amongst men and ordained in things pertaining to God to offer up such services as God had instituted which as to the Jews were Gifts and Sacrifices as to us are Prayer Praise Preaching Administring the Sacraments He had no mind to understand I designed from thence to conclude that we having twice ten thousand Christians that wanted not the Gift of Prayer blessed be God our Church could not want sufficient Ministers for that work seeing she had such Men and it was her own fault if she did not call them to it 10. Our Vindicator comes in the last place to reinforce his own 5 Reasons against the Batteries I had given them His first was p. 253. That a true right and well ordered way of Worship in address to God might be best secured to the Church in the publick Service of God To this I replyed 1. That is onely a right way of Worship which God hath instituted He saith God hath not instituted the very words we are to use but he hath instituted That we should use words in Vocal Prayer and left the particular words to his Ministers liberty Words are an essential part of his Worship man cannot institute them nor determine what of that Nature God hath left to liberty I mean no other men besides he that Ministreth in Prayer which appeareth to be a part of his Institution because he hath directed no other way 2. I had told him that the security he talked of was not possible nor attainable by Forms He tells me it must be secured as much as may be that is his sense but I hope not by depriving Ministers of the just liberty and rights which Christ hath left them not by making Ministers the Ministers of Men to read what they have prescribed instead of the Ministers of Christ doing his work by the means he hath in Nature and by Scripture directed 3. I told him that in Hundreds of Congregations for twenty years together the Worship of God was in England well and orderly performed without Forms I here add and hath been and is in Scotland New England Holland so as admit what he saith were true in the late times of all the Congregations in England which it is very far from yet there is proof enough ro overthrow his Reason 11. His second reason was That needful and comprehensive Petitions for all Spiritual and outward wants with fit Thanksgivings may not in the publick Supplications of the Church be Omited when as the tying of all men to the Forms is the ready way to have them Omitted as we have had now the experience of two years last past for a sufficient proof nor are the ordinary and common wants of Christians proportionable to the particular renewing wants of States and Churches Congregations and Persons 12. His Third Reason was That the hearts of Pious Men might be more devout and better united in the Service of God by considering before-hand what Prayers and Thanksgivings they are to offer up and come the more ready to joyn and prepared to joyn in them And when they come not hear one word about the particular Sins they have been thinking to confess but onely sins in general nor of their present and renewing wants nor of their lately received mercies how great soever they be nor how Universal soever for which God certainly expects a particular Recognition and Thanksgiving but onely words of General Thanksgiving for all Mercies and general Confessions of all Sins and general Petitions for all good things 13. He seems displeased that I should tell him Forms may be read falsly This he saith is very unlike but I my self with a hundred more have heard it more then once I could name him the particular persons times and things but then I should be exclaimed against again for reflecting yet it is not yet 14 days since I heard it from one who as one would have thought read the Forms with great Zeal But then he saith the people may help themselves having often heard and joyned in the Form that is provided they have the most by heart which not one hath of Ten thousand and 2. then not without great distraction for they have great reason to believe their Leader can Read more perfectly then they can remember 12. His fourth Reason was That such difficult parts of Church Offices as Baptism and the Supper of the Lord the matter of which requires great consideration may in composing a Form be so framed that men of greatest understandings may with readiest assent entertain them and that they might be sufficiently Vindicated from the Calumny I suppose he means of the boldest Opposers My Answer was to that sense That these were the easiest parts of a Ministers Office as to External work for besides the use of his Natural Motions of his his hands he had nothing to do but to repeat the words of our Saviour which are very short Forms of Divine Institution and to apply the general acts of his Office Prayer and Exhortation to that Work This now our Vindicator denieth not but he would have security that men should not Vary Let him have a Law with all our hearts But he rhinks that according to mens

He drew the Imperial Law into three Books called after Justinians Code to which were added the Digesta and last of all the Novellae constitut the former contained the Laws of all former Emperors the last such as he himself and some few Emperors next before him made Justinian confirmed these Books so they became the Imperial Law from the year 542. By the way tho this Justinian did many good things yet he was an Heretick and had many great Vices It was he who put out the eyes of Belisarius that great Commander by whom he indeed did whatsoever he did worthily in his Wars c. so as he was inforced to begg his bread before he died 13. Out of the Preface to these Novellae our Vindicator hath taken something he thinks for his purpose If he had given us the words of the Prefacer for I cannot find them in Gothofred I could have spoken distinctly to it but I suppose he hath given all that were for his turn Speaking of his Monks and Clergy he saith they would have done otherwise if they had acquainted themselves 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to learn the way of the Holy Ministrations as to what he saith cap. 2 and cap. 6 having not the Book I can say nothing unless he had given us the Greek words I suspect them to be but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which prove nothing But it is not worth the while for admit these proofs prove the thing it proveth no Sanction of Forms of Prayer before 542 So I lose but 59 years Nor do I understand what need Pope Adrian had 259 years after this to get a Civil Sanction from Charles the Great if one were 259 year old made by Justinian and made a part of the Imperial Law 14. But I cannot but observe by the way how our Author fetching his Ecclesiastical Sanction but from the Council of Chalcedon 451 and Justinians Novellae 541 hath quite destroyed his instance out of Eusebius de Vita Constantini c. 17 19 20 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for if the English of that be Prayers by Authority appointed we must find an higher Authority constituting their use then that of Justinian who did what he did 542 and Constantine had been dead 200 years before Nor was the Council of Chalcedon of 130 years after Constantines death so that it should seem only the Prayers were constituted of which he speaks cap. 17 not the Forms also but I shall meet with that anon besides this Civil Sanction of Justinian being in his Novellae which contained only his own Laws and some Emperors that went immediately before him it is a certain proof there was no Ancienter Civil Sanction by Constantine and Theodosius c. we should then have found it in Justinians Code not in his Novellae for any Ecclesiastical Sanction there is no pretence to any until the Councel of Chalcedon and I have shewed there is no proof to be fetched from thence besides the Canon of the Councel of Milevis being not brought into the Code of the Vniversal Church is a sufficient Argument there was no such thing confirmed by the Councel of Chalcedon for that Canon is the only plain Canon in the case 15. But Dato non concesso as we say admit That from the year 541 they had been so imposed by Justinian and made a part of the Imperial Law what then I had been mistaken 59 years which I am far from believing or seeing the least ground for Will any one say that the practice of a Romane Emperor in that age or indeed the Church under his Government was a Copy for any Protestant Church in all things to write after I refer my Reader to the sad account given by the Centuriators who were all Learned Protestants of the most corrupt state of the Church in this Age see Magdeburg Centur Centur. 6. ap 137 impr Basil I think any one who is a Protestant will be of another mind The Pope indeed at that time was not well set in his Saddle it was 6 or 7 years after that age before he got the Title of Vniversal Bishop but his foot at this time was in the Stirrop and the Bridle in his hand 16. But our Vindicator will go higher with us he will prove them from the year 400 to the year 500. I hope he means generally used in publick Devotion or imposed for such use or he proveth just nothing To prove this he again brings in the Canon of the Council of Chalcedon I have already said enough to that Next he brings in Proclus Bishop of Constantinople and he finds his Writings in Bibliotheca Patrum he tells us he declares Forms of Divine Service what is the Greek word To have been delivered from St. James and St. Clement and to have been ordered by St. Basil and St. Chrysostome That there was one Proclus Bishop of Constantinople soon after Chrysostome Eusebius tells us But that he left us any Writings must be proved from better Auhority then that of Bibliotheca Patrum However he saith as much for St. James and Clements Forms of Prayer as he doth for Basils or Chrysostomes and as to them our Author declares his not giving credit to him nor is it reasonable he should for it is not probable that had there been any Apostolical Liturgies Chrysostome and Basil would have made any Nor was Proclus a likely man to impose any for Eusebius l. 7. c. 4. gives us this Character of him He vexed no Sect but preserved and restored to the Church the great Jewel of Meekness which is best for the Church wherein he imitated the Emperor Theodosius for as he would not exert his Imperial Power against any accused for Religion so neither did Proclus concern himself as to those who held a diverse Doctrine 17 Our Vindicator riseth higher and will prove something from the year 300 to the year 400 but I observe he never tells us what will he prove the Lords Prayer was used Or that some Forms were made by others Or that some men used some Forms None denieth all this But that which he is to prove is That such Forms were generally used by or imposed upon all Ministers in any considerable part of the Church All his proof is from the Liturgies of Chrysostome and Basil Julians speaking of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an Order amongst Christians in Worship which Sozomen calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Nazianzene Orat. 3. p. 101 102 calls them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 considering what himself had quoted out of Eusebius and from the Council of Laodicea n. 5 6 7 8. 18. What he hath said out of the Council of Laodicea hath had its full answer what he hath said from Eusebius hath had an Answer in part and anon shall have a fuller reply to it at present I will onely concern my self in the other For the Liturgies of Basil and Chrysostome admit they did make any I would fain