themselues with the Ministers answer vpon the similitude word Camell For first they can no wayes proue that that saying of Iesus Christ vpon the end of that speech ought else-where to be applied then to the nearest member of the same where speech is made of the conuâ—sion and sauing of a rich man For the Pronowne demonstratiue Hoc doth clearly shewe it Afterwards although that the generall proposition in the end and conclusion of the said sentence where it is said that all things are possible to God extendeth as the Doctors will haue it to the Camell as well as the rich man yet rightly to apply the two patts of the comparison it behoueth they confesse that as the change is necessary for the rich man to be saued so is it also for the body of the Camel to cause it passe through the eye of a needle Howsoeuer that might in some sort be done the Doctors shal not proue nor euer thence conclude that two bodies can the one pierce the other For as much as the Doctors by their thrisestrong powerfull arguments haue not bene able to conclude any of all their absurdities nor by force of their reasons to constraine the Ministers to confesse the same they do nought else but exclaime Blasphemy Blasphemy which is the last recourse of all persons who despite and gnash the teeth against the truth and them that maintain it when they cannot ouercome them Would the Ministers subscribe to the errors end abuses of the said Doctors they should bee good and Catholike people but because they gainsay and reproue them they be in their opinion heretikes seducers blasphemers and Atheists and in so great horror doo the Doctors hold them that it is maruel they pull not like Caiphas their horned caps and hoods in peeces in detestation of the word of God proposed and defended by the said Ministers and condemned as blasphemy by the Doctors The Doctors haue dissembled the passage of the scripture alledged by the Ministers to proue that faith is a worke of God which he bringeth forth in the heart of the faithfull when he will worke his regeneration and incidently speake of free will and the merit of workes Wherevnto the Ministers are well resolued to answere and by the grace of God to maintaine the truth of these two points against the enemies of his glorie when they shall be proposed to be debated and discussed And for the ioy which they receiue say they that the Ministers haue confessed they haue not read in any auncient Author and expresse termes that God cannot cause one selfe-same body to bee in diuers places at one instant they haue no great cause thereof to reioyce for albeit the said Fathers haue not in expresse termes said it yet in termes equiualent in infinite places haue they said and written the same A short Resolution of all the Answeres and discourse which the Ministers haue made vpon the matter of Gods omnipotencie in the Conference which they haue had with the Doctors THe craft and subtiltie of Sathan from the beginning of the world hath alwayes beene to transforme himfelfe into an Angell of light and to search some faire pretext to shrowd and disguise himselfe and vnder that shadowe to insinuate himselfe into the Church of GOD and there to broach his lyes and trumperies As we all see that vnder pretence to honour God he hath established all the Idolatrie which hath euer beene in the worlde referring the adoration of Images the Inuocation and intercession of Saintes the worshipping of Reliques and other lyke impieties to the honour of God and perswading the ignorant that all that was done to aduance the same Lykewise vnder pretext of his seruice hath he brought in all the traditions and inuentions of men and chaunged with the time the true and lawfull seruice of God which consisteth in the obedience of his holy will declared vnto vs in his lawe and word into the obseruation of theyr commaundements and theyr inuented ceremonies Vnder shadowe and colour of the Sacraments ordained by God for the confirmation exercise and nourishing of the faith of the Church there hath crept in the Masse which is not only the ruine and totall subuersion of the Supper but also an abolishment of all the benefite of Iesus Christ and consequently of the faith and all true Religion Vnder colour and shadowe of holinesse and of chaste shamefaste and honest conuersation which is chiefly required in the Ministers and Pastors of the Church he hath established single life and taken away from them the libertie of marriage which hath bene the occasion of all filthinesse and of infamous stinking and execrable whoredomes and luxuritie which is seene in the Papacie Vnder the shadowe of prayers which men are commaunded to make one for an other and of Charitie whereby we are bound to succour all the needie poore hath hee brought in all the suffrages which men sing for the dead the merites and workes of supererogation and other lyke abhominations Vnder colour of the Saboth which God had chosen and deputed to the sanctification of his holy name to the contemplation of his workes in the remembrance and preaching of his benefites and fauours He hath set forth an infinite number of prophane Feastes in which the name of God is blasphemed his ordinance despised his couenant violated But who can recount the wickednesse and abhominations which are committed in these dayes Vnder pretext of the keyes and discipline of the Church the administration and vse whereof was giuen to the Ministers lawfully called for a meane to conserue the doctrine in it puritie and keepe and entertaine good order in the Church and to hinder the slaunders which by the insolencie of some might happen hath hee established a tyrannie whence is proceeded the whole dissipation of the Church of God the corruption of all estates and the diminishing of the lawfull authoritie which God hath giuen to Kings Princes and Magistrates Some whereof haue bene wholly spoyled as well of theyr goods as dignities by the Pope and the Bishops and others so weakened that they are in many places constrained to bowe the necke and submit themselues to theyr yoake and puissance To be short this may be noted and obserued in all the purposes and actions of the diuell that as he is a Serpent so hath hee alwayes ramped and secretly crept as it were vnder the leaues and appearance of some pietie into the house of God to place therein his pretended disorder confusion and ruine And we see that now continuing and following his wonted practises hee setteth foorth the omnipotencie of God which to all the world is a plausible and fauourable tytle to the ende that vnder the lustre and brightnesse of such an occasion hee might dazell the eyes of the ignorant and hold them still in the opinion and perswasion of theyr errorus which haue no foundation in the word of God The Ministers beseech the Readers and all those that haue
first instructed concerning the Masse The Doctors say that the Ministers by word of mouth haue instructed the said Lady not onely in the error which concerneth their Supper but also in many others as they will make it appeare when they shall handle the articles of the Confession by them exhibited Then willing to instruct the Lady by order in the Catholique Religion they purpose to follow the order held by the Fathers of the Church that is to say to shew vnto her how many errors against the Articles of the faith are contained in the Catechisme of their Ghurch although they shew to them of their religion that they differ in these articles nothing from the Catholiques And because to catechise and instruct one it behooueth to beginne at the foundation and that of certaine articles of the Creed in which the Ministers their like do erre dependeth the beginning of the proofe of the reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar they will holde the order which all good teachers or instructors doo keepe in all discipline and the Ministers themselues do obserue following in their Catechisme this method And rightly were the Doctors to bee mocked whom men doo take for instructors if they should beginne for the Ministers pleasure to instruct one in that point wherein they ought to ende as endeth the same Catechisme of the Ministers vpon the matter of the Supper Moreouer seeing the Ministers are content as they say that all the articles of their confession bee examined no priuiledge haue they but that one begin at the first for as much as all order so requireth and it is alwayes at the choice of the Apponent to propound in such order as seemeth best to him the questions for the Dispute were there any And for as much as they are bound to giue a reason of their faith as often as they be therof required expedient it were for the good of the Lady for the instruction of those that shall read the Conference to follow this method And if they refuse what the Doctors doo offer they cannot auoyd it but all the world will iudge by the eye that distrusting their owne doctrine which they dare not vphold they confound the Conference Whereas they require that the Doctors in the Conference put foorth but one reason at once wherevnto they may answere without confusion or else that in one day the Doctors put forth all their reasons and on an other day the Ministers may come to answere The Doctors do say that the first offer is reasonable and to auoyd length of speech they accept it but they neuer heard say that the second maner hath bene practised and no need it were to assemble together in one place for that purpose but to send their writings the one to the other Answere Touching the exhibiting of the confession and the offers which the Doctors pretend to haue beene made by the Ministers the Ministers do report themselues to the Registers And do adde moreouer that it appeareth by the Doctors last proposition that it is not vpon the confession which the Doctors say was exhibited vnto them but vpon the Catechisme that they will ground their Dispute For conclusion the Miuisters do eftsoones protest as abouesaid that men may know who they be that doo flye the Lists and require that henceforth the order of arguing and answering may be by course betweene them and the Doctors For as much as it behoueth that things be equall and that it is reasonable that the Doctors as well do render a reason of their faith as the Ministers Reply The Doctors do referre them to what hath bene put in writing in the two first Conferences where speech was alwaies of examining the articles of their confession without making any mention of the Masse And where they say that it seemeth the Doctors would examine the Catechisme and not the articles of the confession the Doctors are content to examine the said articles by conferring them with the Catechisme This considered that these two ought to agree together they make all men iudges that shal read these writings in whom is the let that they begin not the Conference And for the order which the Ministers will now change a new fashion it is and also a new trouble cōsidering that hitherto they haue holden the place of respondent and haue presented to be examined the articles of their confession As for the Doctors they haue bene alwaies arguers and haue not for their part proposed ought to be examined Neuerthelesse they are contented after examination of the said confession that the Ministers doo propound the difficulties they shall haue against the Catholike doctrine wherevnto by the grace of God the Doctors will answere Demaund Whether the Ministers do beleeue the Creed called the Apostles to haue bene made by the Apostles and whether they do beleeue all that is contained therein Answere It is a thing in difference whether the Apostles being together themselues did write it each one of them bringing his sentence as some do hold or whether it hath bene gathered out of diuers places of their writings But so it is that in the reformed Church men beleeue euery point to bee drawne from the pure Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine contained in their writings as if one should say that it is a Summarie of the doctrine which the Apostles haue preached because it beareth and containeth the same Question Leauing to auoyd tediousnesse whether it bee a thing indifferent for a Christian to beleeue that a doctrine hath bene written by the Apostles or no if it be conformable to that which shal be found in holy writ they demaund whether all doctrine conformable to the said Letters may take indifferently the title of the Apostles or other authors of the scripture Answere No man can faile to call it Apostolike doctrine but in naming it Apostolike writing one might giue to vnderstand that it was written by their owne hands or spoken by them But howsoeuer it be where we shall acknowledge any doctrine to sauour of the spirit wherwith the holy men of God haue bin moued that call we Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine Obiection The demaund was not whether the doctrine be Apostolike for any such conformitie but whether for this reason it may be attributed to the Apostles and of like authoritie as the Scriptures vnto which it is conformable forasmuch as it proceedeth from one selfe same spirit as is sayd in the answere Answere The Answere thereto is made to wit that such a writing doth containe Apostolique doctrine and in some sence it may be said to be the Apostles Obiection The Answere vnder correction nought pertaineth to the question For it is not demaunded whether men may esteeme it Apostolique in respect of the conformitie but whether for this conformitie men may attribute it to the Apostles and giue vnto it the tytle and name of the Apostles and whether for the said conformitie
same to my Lord the Admirall by whose aduice and other Lords which hee spake too De Spina was suddenly sent for who beeing come vnto them and hauing vnderstood all that aforesaid said that hee hoped for little fruite of all this Conference considering the qualitie and humour of the man with whom hee was to deale because hee is much more partiall for the Pope and his traditions then zealous for the word of God and truth of Iesus Christ Which thing those that were present did well approoue Neuerthelesse hee was purposed for two considerations to present himselfe at the said Conference the one to support and stablish my said Lady de Buillon against the Sophismes and cauillations of the said Vigor the other to take from him the occasion to boast as his custome is that the Ministers durst not appeare before him And then was the proceeding and order aduised of which they should hold in the said Conference And that the said De Spina should first require that it might be authorized by the Kings permission Afterwards that to auoyd all confusion it should bee made in the presence of a fewe persons Thirdly that there should bee some certaine theame and subiect proposed wherof they should conferre Fourthly that there should be two Moderators of the whole Action and two others deputed faithfully to collect all the reasons and arguments which should bee brought forth by the parties All which things hauing beene proposed to my Lord the Duke of Buillon as well by Monsieur the Admirall as by the said De Spina hee found them very reasonable and promised to giue the best order he could to all the businesse admonishing De Spina to be readie the first day of Iuly 1566. for after dinner hee should make the said Conference By meanes whereof the same De Spina to prepare himselfe went to finde out Monsieur Barbaste Minister to the Queene of Nauarre whom hee prayed to vouchsafe to accompany and second him in the said conference Which he graunting both two together with three other Gentlemen left by my said Lord de Buillon to conduct them went after dinner the day and yeare aboue said to the house of my Lord the Duke de Montpensier where when they were arriued the Duke de Buillon aduertised thereof by one of the said Gentlemen came vnto them in the Hall where they were And speaking to De Spina demaunded of him induced as is likely by the Doctors assembled in the chamber whence hee came if he were purposed and resolued to pray after the custome of the reformed Churches before they began the said conference He answered yea and that neither he nor his companion could not nor ought to attempt a thing of such importance as to handle the Mysteries of Christian Religion without first being prepared therevnto by the inuocation of Gods name That heard hee entred the chamber where the Doctors were assembled and hauing communicated to them the answere of the said Ministers they appointed Doctor Ruze to declare vnto them that they would not be present at their prayers and that no more reasonable it was that they should bee there then they at their Masse The Ministers answered that they could not with good conscience begin the conference before they had prayed vnto God and that it was in the Doctors choise pleasure to be present or absent at their praiers And they for their part would content themselues to pray in the place assembly wherin the conference should be made But neuerthelesse that their prayers which are as they themselues confesse conformable to the pure word of God and their Masse wherin are many things contrary therevnto as they may easily know and iudge that will trie and examine it by the rule of the scripture were not like things And so by meanes of the impietie and Idolatrie which is in their Masse they could not any way communicate thereat without offence to God and making themselues highly culpable before him but that he and the other Doctors his companions could not be letted by any such difficulties to be present at their prayers For as much as there was no article which by their owne confession 〈◊〉 not holy and according to God Herevpon replied Doctor Ruze that the Ministers staied on a thing of small moment And they answered that the principall exercise of Christian Religion was prayer and that it is a necessarie mean to obtaine the fauour and grace of God without which men cannot attaine successe nor any good speed in all their workes and that therfore the omission thereof was verie pernitious And that they for their part were abashed that he which called himselfe a Doctor and Diuine should make so litle account of praier which is the true practise fruite and vse of all the knowledge which can be had of God and his word and that therein one may know what was the iudgement of them which measure diuinitie by Idle and vaine speculations Then said he vn-them that the Duke de Montpensier would neuer suffer he should so be braued in his owne house nor that it should bee said that the Ministers had made their prayers Wherevnto answered the Ministers that to braue was a thing contrarie to their profession And that so farre off were they from brauing of Princes to whom they owed all honour feare and obedience that they would condemne themselues if so be they had vsed it to a man of the basest qualitie in the world And added moreouer that the Doctors and such others which charged them with such slaunders towards Princes to stirre vp and moue them against them should be assured they should once answere before God for the same Herevpon spake Doctor Ruze and demaunded of the Ministers why they stood so stifly vppon that point of prayer They fâ—â— answere proposed vnto him first that the end of the Conference was to manifest the true meaning of the scripture and make the hearers vnderstand it which thing could not be done without the spirit of God who enlightneth the minde and vnderstanding to comprehend it and openeth the mouthes to expresse the same And therefore it behoueth to implore and obtaine his grace by prayers Afterwards that God commaunded all those that want wisedome to aske it of him and to seeke what they would finde and to knocke if they would haue him to open vnto them All which things cannot otherwise bee obtained then by prayers And therefore concluded that for this cause they were necessary They alledged further that all things ought to be reduced to the glory of God and that inuocation was therefore requisite in the beginning and thankesgiuing at the ending and consummation of all our workes nor more nor lesse then wee beginne and finish our repast in blessing and praising the name of God Then said Doctor Ruze vnto them that they would not hinder them to pray vnto God but that they should do it in their hearts And they answered that it was not
such a case is first to regard the ende wherevnto a doctrine tendeth which shall be declared vnto vs or a booke that shall be presented vnto vs For if it tend to establish and aduance the glory of God it is true as Iesus Christ saieth in S. Iohn That he which seeketh the glory of God is truth and there is no vnrighteousnesse in him Afterwards we must consider whether being reduced to the proportion and the analogie of faith as saith S. Paul it well agreeth and accordeth with the principles and foundations of Religion Obiection All say and may say as much thereof and therefore this reason is no sufficient argument as I conceiue by effect and other proofes how I ought to stay my selfe thereupon Moreouer this answer passeth the limits of the proposition For it presupposeth the Scripture to be the knowne foundation of Religion And the proposition was to know the reason which should assure me that the Scripture was of God and that it behooueth to distinguish betweene the Bookes thereof Answere It is easie to iudge if the end of the doctrine proposed tendeth to establish and aduance the honour and glorie of God As if men were exhorted thereby to withdraw wholly their trust from creatures wholly to settle and repose themselues in God to resort to him in all their necessities and to depend vpon his prouidence in all their affaires to praise and thanke him for all the goodnes they haue This presupposed no man could doubt that the doctrine which tendeth to such an end should not be good and receiuable And to that which hath bene proposed that the former Answere was out of the limits of the first proposition it seemeth not for that the first thing proposed was What is the foundation of our Religion Wherunto it was answered That it is the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Obiection This answer is common to the Lutherans and Anabaptists yea also to the Deistes which say more then all others that they seeke the glorie of God and all that which in the answere is written And generally each man that should vse the like saying should not cease to erre in all the Articles of the Creed the first excepted But to returne to the point without so much wandering it seemeth to vs not lawfull to vse the foundation of the Scripture before it bee notorious and certaine that it is the holy Scripture and that there is difference amongst the bookes thereof And before it bee known that I haue particular inspiration of the holy Ghost and that such a particular inspiration of the holy Ghost be a sufficient foundation of Religion Answere The Deistes and other hereâ—iques cannot bee holpen by the foresayd answere for confirmation of their errors Forasmuch as the Desties denying Jesus Christ cannot glorifie God seeing that to glorifie the Father it behooueth first to know and to glorifie the Sonne no more also other heretiques For that not knowing the trueth nor consequently Iesus Christ which is the way the life and the trueth they cannot know nor glorifie God And touching that obiected that the answere was from the purpose that may be iudged by the conference of the demand and answere And for the latter point of the obiection wherein it is sayde that the reuelation which each particular man sayth hee hath of the Spirite of God is to him the foundation of Religion that was not answered But that the foundation of all true Religion is the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles Of the trueth of which all the Church in generall and the members thereof in particular are assured by the witnesâ—e and inward reuelation of the Spirit of God Obiection Then it behooued to adde whatsoeuer is heere sayde to the other answere before it were good and it seemeth that the answere doeth containe as it were a mockerie For it is certaine that when all trueth is in the doctrine of a man that man is no more euill nor an heretique But wee search out the beginning of trueth what it shou'd bee And touching the reply which denieth that the particular reuelation is the foundation of Religion There is no great difference For if the particular reuelation bee a sufficient foundation for euery one to know what is of the Apostles and Prophets that particular reuelation by consequence is the foundation of Religion For that is the foundation of knowledge whereupon euery particular man knoweth and sayeth his Religion is founded Answere The answeres haue bene made according as the demaundes haue beene propounded and it will not appeare by the reading of them that they are willing to mocke For in such a Conference as this where the matter is to seeke out the honour and glory of God Mockerie should bee ioyned with impietie And as touching reuelation that it is equall to the Scripture which is the foundation of Religon wee denie it and say they bee things different although they be conioyned together and that they doo follow the one the other euen as appeareth by that which is written in Esay Behold my couenant with them sayth the Lord my Spirit that is in thee and my wordes which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede And that which followeth From whence a man may iudge the distinction which the Prophet putteth between the reuelation of the holy Ghost and the word Obiection For conclusion of this Conference I leaue each man to iudge of the agreement of the answerers and obiections And for that which is alledged of the vnion of the word and of the holy Ghost out of the text of Esay they are things from the purpose and new matter And we must not compare the reuelation of euery particular person whereof was the question vnto that of the Prophet Esay who had other proofes that the Spiâ—â—t spake by him and had oft times made demonstration thereof And of all that aboue said I leaue the iudgement to euery Christian Answere We leaue also the iudgement of what hath beene spoken of the one part and the other to the hearers and readers And for the passage of Esay produced the question is not of the reuelation of the Prophet nor of the spirit communicated vnto him but of the spirit and the words which God promised to all his people with whom he made his couenant And as touching the other pretended proofes which the Prophet had of his vocation we make no doubt thereof But we say that the principall and most assured was that which he had by the testimony of God his Spirit as appeareth by the sixt Chapter of his Prophecie Obiection Be it so that by the person of Esay be spake to his people it followeth not that he spake not to Esay first And I allow that he promised indeed his spirit to his people that is to say to his Church vniuersal Not that he wil that euery one yea being in this Church
difference betweene both parties touching the distinction of the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha Obiection Although the Ministers doo affirme that they build their Religion vpon the word of God yet build they Gods word vpon their inward reuelation So that such a reuelation is the foundation of the Word and consequently of their religion For they receiue not for the word of God but that which they thinke to bee particularly reuealed to them Touching the other Article wherein they finde fault that the Doctors haue said that faith is obtained by hearing of the word of God it seemeth they will stay vpon small things because they will not goe to the principall And where they say that faith is the gift of God and therefore is not gotten it is too plaine by manifold texts of Scripture that one selfe-same thing to be giuen and obtained is not repugnant As the kingdome of heauen which is giuen to the blessed and notwithstanding men obtaine it by true faith working by charitie And the scripture it selfe dooth call it a reward and recompence of good workes And Saint Paul saith that by liberalitie and almesdeeds the grace of God is gained Yea that which Saint Paul saith Fides ex auditu Faith commeth by hearing cannot otherwise be vnderstood but that faith commeth by hearing the word of God which is the obtaining thereof by the meane of hearing the word preached although it be a gift of God The like subtiltie they vse willing to reproue that which hath bene spoken that faith is the truth reuealed as putting great difference betweene the truth reuealed and the reuelation of truth Meet it were that the subtiltie were vaileable against S. Paul who saith Panis quem frangimus nonne communicatio corporis Domini est The bread which wee breake is it not the communion of the body of the Lord Which is as much to say as Panis fractio nonne c. The breaking of the bread is it not c. And therefore to speake properly it behoueth that the text of S. Paul bee subiect to such reprehensions And as touching this article that they may not enter thereinto albeit the Ministers do reply the Doctors will say no more of it as beeing a thing too much impertinent For in the end should we speake of Merit and from that matter fall into an other It troubleth them to deale with the vocation of lawfull Ministers of the Church and to eschew that matter would not alledge what they might without straying that first before we receiue their doctrine it was meete to examine whether they were Ministers lawfully sent from the true Church to preach the word of God and in their preachings to be heard of the people according to the text of S. Paul aboue alledged Which thing had they of the new Religion well considered a very sufficient argument should they haue had for not receiuing of their doctrine because it is more cleare then the day that they be not Ministers sent by the Pastors of the Church but thrust in themselues to preach vnable to shewe any signe of their calling from men and much lesse from God And were it lawfull for euery one to preach the word which saith he is sent there would be infinite Sects as we see at this time haue happened And they say no more of this matter for feare to aggrauate these things any further Touching the Article where mention is made how a man may knowe that a reuelation is of Ood where it is said by the Ministers that men should rather know it by the word then by the consent of many that maketh nothing to the purpose of the Doctors For the question is how a man should iudge a booke to containe the word of God and not to iudge of the doctrine by the word alreadie receiued The Doctors would willingly desire and doo pray the Ministers to answere directly to the very point Touching that they haue saide Of the consent of many The Doctors said not so but spake of the consent of the Church which is also as infallible as the word of God For as it is certaine that the holy Ghost is author of the Word so also is it certaine that hee is the soule of the Church by whose conduct she can neuer erre witnesse S. Paul who calleth her Columnam firmamentum veritatis The ground and pillar of truth But they will not enter into this question whether the multitude of the Church may erre or not Neuerthelesse it will not be found â—ithens the Church was planted after the death of Iesus Christ that shee hath bene of lesse number then the Sects of heretikes And that alledged of Constance and of the time of the olde Testament seruâ—th nothing to that purpose for there is great difference betweene the Synagogue of the Iewes and the Church which is the congregation of all Nations beleeuing in Iesus Christ and which cannot be or consist but in a most great multitude otherwise the promises made to the Church of the Gentiles should be vaine for it is said to Abraham that his â—eed this must not bee vnderstood of the carnall should be multiplied as the starres of heauen and the sand of the sea Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching the Prophets c. The Doctors do say that they confesse there is great difference betweene phantasticall imaginations and the reuelation of the holy Ghost but the Ministers doo not answere how they would proue their particular perswasions to be reuelations rather then the vaine and foolish imaginations of the Prophets which Ezechiel spake of The which notwithstanding they called inspirations and what they said and preached they called also the Word of God Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching the Anabaptists c. The Doctors say that to one selfe-same end doo the Ministers and Anabaptists wholly produce the selfe-same places of which mention is made that is to say to stay and assure their doctrine to be of God because therof they haue particular reuelation as God hath promised them by the Prophets And for this selfe-same cause haue the Ministers produced the said testimonies of the scripture to proue that euery faithfull man may indge by his particular inspiration if a booke do containe the word of God and distinguish a booke Canonicall from Apocrypha to iudge and discerne the true doctrine from the false which is the selfe-same foundation of the Anabaptists and other heretikes To that Article which beginneth touching that which is produced of Brentius c. The Doctors say that the Ministers haue not well conceiued their meaning For they bring not the saying of Brentius and Bucer but onely because they say that they know the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scripture by the tradition of the Church and not by particular inspiration as the Ministers Touching the Article following the Doctors say there was a time when some made doubt of certaine bookes of the Scripture as of the Apocalips the Canonicall
scriptures that the people or other particular persons fell into vnbeliefe or distrust of Gods helpe and succor he shall know that the cause hath ordinarily bene for staying vpon the nature and disposition of humane things without sufficient apprehension of the power of God And contrariwise to confirme them that this power was set before their eyes diuers examples therof haue heretofore bene brought out of Esay and Ieremy In the new Testament the Virgin hauing regard to the naturall maner of conceauing seemed to doubt of the mean of her conception And she said How shall this thing be seeing I know not man And the Angell answering sayd vnto her Nothing shall bee impossible with God Drawing her backe from the cogitations of naturall proprieties which is the roote of Infidelitie and exhorting her to thinke vpon the Almightinesse of God which is the chiefe stone and rocke wherevpon true Religion is builded Which thing considered The Doctors for their resolution of this conference with the Ministers do say that with good right hath the omnipotency of God very expresly obtained the first place among the articles of the Apostles Creed as being that by which all the other articles of faith and the workes of God aboue nature are belieued and maintained against all contradiction and repugnancy of nature or reason which may be pretended or alledged And without the which any article of faith or any the workes of God surpassing nature and contained in the scriptures could not be defended and maintained against the assaults of malice and depriuation of humane spirit which alwayes tendeth to infidelitie and disobedience towards his God and from his byrth is prompt and subtil to depraue and slaunder his word and commandement By meanes whereof say the Doctors that so much the more ought euery Christian to inforce himself to hold and keep that article entire without suffring any to make any exceptiō therof or to restrain it at his pleasure vnder any pretexts of I know not what repugnancies of creatures which humane spirit proposeth for want of vnderstanding and comprehending the greatnesse of God For the scriptures do euer present vnto vs this omnipotēcy generally without any restraint in regard of creatures or of the workes of God And teacheth vs that the creatures is in his hands as the clayin the hand of the Potter to receiue such change and forme as shall seeme good vnto him without that they can say Why hast thou made or chaunged mee thus Such similitude and words the Prophet Esay Ieremy and S. Paul do vse Moreouer the Doctors say that men must yet lesse be lycensed to limit and bound the foresayd power according to the contradictions which in theyr writings they imagine of the nature wisedome or eternall will of God Seeing that the scripture saith plainly that God can doo more then wee vnderstand and mocketh at them which will entermeddle with the nature wisedome and eternall will of God as though they had bene of counsell with him to know thereby the decisions and ordinances more then his owne word pronounceth thereof And S. Paule in the end constraineth with himselfe euery spirit created to cry out confessing his ignorance of the power wisedome and workes of God Oh the deepnesse of the riches wisedome and knowledge of God how incomprehensible are his iudgements and his wayes past finding out For who is he that hath knowne the minde of the Lord Or who hath bene his Counsailor And an excellent saying of S. Augustine vpō this point is to be noted who in an Epistle Advolusianum saith We confesse that God can doo something the which in searching wee cannot finde As if hee would say to wit if God can doo something albeit in our naturall iudgement wee thinke it impossible wee esteeme it neuerthelesse that it is possible but that the capacitie of our spirit cannot comprehend the same The Doctors say asso that by such libertie and meanes that any will exempt what hee liketh from the power of God vnder colour of some impossibilities of nature or of repugnancie after his owne iudgement to the nature wisedome and will of God each one will studie to faine the like in all matters of faith wherein such causes may bee easily inuented and well disguised And that it is so from the first article of the Creed vnto the last let all the heresies which haue bene there contradicted be from time to time obserued and it will appeare that all haue held this way and method to fight against euery article of faith as impossible to God respecting the impossibilitie of the worke according to nature and some pretended inconueniences against the nature wisedome will and glorie of God The Doctors employ to this effect the two first bookes of Tertullian one whereof is of the incarnation of Iesus Christ and the other against the Marcionists of the resurrection of the flesh In which the Christian reader shall perceiue the like arguments of those Marcionists endeuouring to exempt from the omnipotencie of God the incarnation of our Lord and the resurrectiō of the flesh Then to conclude this point the Doctors do forewarne euery Christian that they adde not ought to the scriptures which speake alwaies without any limitation of the power of GOD towards the creatures and to the ende to praise the infinite power wisedome and eternall will of our Creator and Redeemer and to the end to preserue the closet of Gods secrets from euery shamelesse and impudent person which of his own folly wil make a law not only to mē of heretikes Credendo non credunt To wit that in beleeuing Gods omnipotencie they beleeue it not For after they haue said that no exception is to be put vnto it on the other side they returne to declare that it ought not bee extended to euery thing which humane spi◠t can conceiue And indeed they will not apply vnto it but what seemeth good vnto them and shrowd themselues with the nature wisdome and eternall will of God which to them are vnknowne and incomprehensible as that of the Omnipotencie The Doctors therefore do admonish all men to beware of beeing abused with the words of Caluin and his Ministers but to regard the works which they denie to be in the power of God The Doctors haue proposed to them these foure questions to wit whether God can make one body to be in two places and contrariwise two bodies in one place whether hee can lodge one body in a lesse space then the greatnesse thereof and whether he can make it invisible And such questions haue beene specially chosen because the principall arguments of the pretended reformed Religion against the true presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament are founded vpon the same The Doctors beleeue simply as all other things that the foure questions are possible to God and haue proued the same by the infinitenesse of his power by the scriptures which attribute vnto him
the Supper ouer and besides the assurance which it giueth them of the participation they haue in the flesh of Iesus Christ for their redemption doth worke in them remission of sinnes Lastly they demaund whether one receiueth any thing by the Supper which he could not receiue without the Supper or whether without paine taking to go the Supper or beeing present thereat one may as well receiue the bodie and graces of Iesus Christ as if hee were present at the Supper The Doctors will afterwards debate the other articles contained in the Ministers last writing for as much as the precedent demaunds ought to be first examined as grounds of other articles proposed by the Ministers Moreouer after the confutation of the Supper of the Ministers and the confirmation of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament the Doctors by order and without confusion will clearly teach by the pure and expresse word of God that the Masse was instituted and said by Iesus Christ and that he commaunded his Apostles to say it which thing then following the ordinance of their Maister they afterwards performed That the Masse is a true sacrifice of the lawe Euangelique That they which reiect the Masse and admit in the Church no externall sacrifice nor Priesthood are without the true lawe without true Religion and therein worse then Idolaters themselues That the Masse auaileth to obtaine remission of sinnes fauour and grace of God and that it auaileth both for the quicke and the dead That it is not an abuse in the Church if the Priest in the Masse do communicate alone when they that are present will not communicate That they commit an horrible blasphemie which call the adoration of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament adoration of bread and wine and falsly call such worship of the body of Iesus Christ Idolatrie To be short that there is nothing in the Masse at this day ordained and celebrated which in it selfe is not good and holy and agreeable to the word of God The Doctors do admonish the Ministers to answere to the demaunds here aboue written to purpose plainely and by order Sunday 28. of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid The Ministers answere to the writings of the Doctors sent to thē by my Lord de Niuernois the 28. day of Iuly about seuen of the clocke in the euening in the 1566. yeare THe Doctors reproach the Ministers in the beginning of their writing that in their former complaint against thē they immitate the Donatists wherein they verifie that which the Ministers heretofore haue oftentimes shewed them to wit that the most part of their writings are imployed in repetitions iniuries scoffes and inuectiues rather then in good arguments and reasons And they say that the example of the Donatists is much more proper to bee applyed to them then to the Ministers for as much as the Donatists would restraine the name of the Church which vniuersally comprehendeth all the elect and faithfull that are and euer were and attribute the same to the sole company of them which follow their customes and errors as the Doctors at this day approue not others for the Catholike and vniuersall Church then they which follow the traditions and abuses of the Romane Church Moreouer the Donatists did persecute them which were contrarie to their doctrine and vsed violence and all crueltie against them that they could deuise as Saint Augustine in many places doth recyte Now what in time past hath bene the rage and furie as well of the Doctors as of their complices Priests and hypocriticall Monkes against poore Christians each one knoweth And there is not he which knoweth not now both by their Sermons writings and conferences what is their hate and spight against the children and seruants of God and what pleasure should they haue to roote them out were theyr power answerable to their will whereby one may iudge whether they or the Ministers come nearer to the likenesse and example of the Donatists And whereas the Doctors adde that the Ministers cease not to bee blasphemers because they reiect and detest the name thereof The Ministers answere that the Doctors also leaue not to be false accusers because they disauow and denie the name And that the effects do shewe of the one side and the other to whom such crimes and names may appertaine and be attributed And touching that which the Doctors in the same article say that it is blasphemy against the goodnesse of God to impute vnto him that hee is the author of vice and of sinne The Ministers confesse it and do adde that it is blasphemy also against his truth to say that with him there is yea and nay as doo they which vnder a colour and false pretext to establish the omnipotencie of GGD doo propose that hee can cause one bodie at one selfe-same instant to bee in diuers places to wit that it is and is not Touching that which the Doctors afterwards say that the Ministers erre in the grounds of Gods omnipotencie for as much as they haue said that he was almightie because he doth whatsoeuer hee will and that nothing can hinder or with-hold the execution of his counsailes The Ministers answere that therein they haue followed Saint Augustines definition of the omnipotencie of God in the 96. Chapter of his Enchiridion where word for word hee thus saith For other cause is hee not truly called omnipotent but for as much as hee can do all whatsoeuer hee will and that the effect of the will of the Almightie is not hindered by the will and effect of any creature In that they consequently impute to the Ministers that they haue said the omnipotencie of God ought not to bee generally extended to all things which men may conceiue and imagine in their mindes The Ministers say vnder the Doctors correction that they said not so but that the almightinesse of God ought not to be extended without any discretion or distinction to all things generally which men in their foolish phantasies might forge or imagine Wherein to each one it may eftsoones appeare how they curtall and falsifie the Ministers words and sentences to haue meanes and colour for their slaunder Afterwards where they affirme that it is blasphemy to say that God can doo nothing against order the Ministers on the contrary part maintaine that to thinke and say that hee can doo ought which is not well ordered is to blaspheme the wisedome and eternall prouidence of God The Doctors pretend in the article following that one body to be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant is not a thing derogatorie to the truth of God The Ministers doo maintaine the contrarie that it should be derogate both to his truth for as much as there should be in him as is said yea and nay and to his wisedome for as much as in his words there should be disorder and confusion and by consequence to his almightinesse because
Gods Almightinesse came after to maintaine second that which he had of the promise One may see by these examples what daunger there is to depart and draw backe although neuer so litle from the word of God by which we are guided to the knowledge of his will And by the knowledge of his will conducted to the consideration and iudgement which we ought to make and haue of his Almightinesse For want whereof the Doctors are fallen into errors and raylings which they propose to the Ministers by their writing and conclusion of their resolution That is to say that the body of Iesus Christ may be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant which is against the faith we ought to haue and constantly retaine of the wisedome prouidence and euerlasting truth of our God and against that likewise which wee ought to haue and keepe of our Lords true humanitie And that which they first alledge of S. Ierome against Vigilantius nought serueth for the proofe and confirmation of their error Where no other thing he saith but that the soules of the Saints are not inclosed in a certaine prison as dreamed Vigilantius but do follow the Lambe whithersoeuer he goeth Nor that which they alledge of Saint Augustine in the booke which he made of the pure care of the dead For in that booke hee himselfe confesseth that he is incertaine of that which the Doctors doo propose and are assured And nomore doo the three authorities they alledge of Saint Iohn Chrisostome Saint Ambrose and Saint Augustine whose sentences ought to be taken and vnder stood of the Sacrament and not of the thing signified by the Sacrament As in the next conference the Ministers well hope to shew The Ministers do much maruel that the Doctors so draw backe and will not but vnwillingly enter into conference for defence of their Masse and to gainsay the Supper celebrated in the reformed Churches For seeing they hold it for the principall foundation of theyr Religion and propose the same for a meane of saluation to the whole world That they be not seene seducers nor ouer credulous to beleeue or teach an incertaine and vnassured thing they should alwayes be prouided and furnished with reasons to the end they might approue and readily defend that which they beleeue and say and might conuince them also that would deny the same But in this it appeareth to proceed of of an euill conscience which being timerous and fearefull flyeth alwaies the combat and the light It is long time since the Ministers haue importuned them to enter into the deciding and conference of these two points and to bring them thervnto they haue proposed vnto them that it was the end for which the conference was appointed which Madame de Buillon in whose fauour it was made once or twise hath publikely required and that they also had often protested that they were not for other ende assembled with the Doctors then to satisfie therein the said Lady of Buillon and not to be examined by them as they do falsly pretend For the Ministers haue no desire to be examined of such Doctors being Priests Ioyned that to be taught in the points of religion and to know the truth they would not choose such Maisters nor repaire vnto them and frequent theyr schooles for that purpose And yet notwithstanding all the foresayd remonstrances often made and repeated by the Ministers the Doctors haue alwayes vntill now deferred to conferre of the foresaid points awayting as it is likely that some occasion should be offered to breake off and determine the sayd conference before they had begunne to speak thereof Albeit had they any zeale to thâ— honour of God and to the edification of his Church they should by all meanes haue procured that the sayd two points should haue beene fully cleared and resolued be it that they would confirme and strengthen them of their part or withdraw as they pretend those of our side from their errors For it is not much needfull hereafter to dispute of the Saints of Purgatory Pilgrigrimages and other like points In regard of which the most part of the world is at this day cleared By meanes whereof as well the Doctors as the Ministers ought chiefly to insist vpon these two points and to endeuour with them to make them cleare and to be vnderstood of each one and not to vse Sophistries and cauils to make them obscure and retaine thereby the simple in their ignorance as the Doctors endeuour to do Who hauing left of set purpose the Theses Articles proposed to them by the Ministers with order good methode in their last answeres do confusedly propose certaine questions culled out of their schoole diuinitie euer more and more to fold vp this matter And in so doing they withstand as euer hitherto they haue done what so and so often they haue protested to wit that they would examine the confession of the reformed Churches whereof notwithstanding they haue not handled one only point in all the conference Wherein they haue shewed and yet plainly do shewe the distrust they haue to be able to withstand so cleare and apparant trueth as that which is proposed in the saide confession Answeres to the Preface of the Doctors Questions THe Doctors before they propose their Questions in their Preface do call the Supper celebrated in the refor-Churches a prophane and polluted banquet And in so saying they neither shame nor feare first to blaspheme Iesus Christ who instituted the same and is the authour therof and then to condemne the Apostles of Impietie which so haue celebrated and taught it together with all the auncient Churches which followed and obserued whiles it reremained in it puritie the forme and maner which the Euangelists and Apostles had taught and left by their writings But the Ministers would willingly demaund of the Lordes our Maisters that they particularly note vnto them wherein they can violate the institution ordinance of Iesus Christ and leaue his example and that of his Apostles in the celebration of the Supper For when they will celebrate the same they first assemble the whole Church together as Iesus Christ did his Apostles and Disciples where after their publike confession of sinnes and vnderstandingly made in the name of all they make a Sermon to the people wherein according to the grace and power which God hath giuen them they declare the causes and occasions the end the vse the points and effects of the holy Supper to lift vp the hearts of the people to the consideration of the incomprehensible loue which the Father hath shewed towards his Church when in fauour thereof and for the saluation of the same he hath not spared his owne sonne but exposed him to a cruell and cursed death to the end that each one calling to minde so great a grace and mercie be kindled and inflamed in the loue of God and tremble at the ingratitudes and rebellious offences and sinnes which he hath committed
the Doctors wel reason of the rigor of Penetrare as the Ministers did of the rigour of Aperire which more often is found in the scripture without signification of the reall opening of the heauens then Penetrare is found in the scripture to signifie a diuision and actuall cutting of the heauens For Aperire Caelos is often found for imaginary and spirituall opening and hardly is Penetrare Caelos euer found for actuall diuision of the heauens And therefore had the Doctors better reason to conclude by the rigour of the verbe Dierchesthai or Penetrare to pierce without actuall diuision of the heauens then the Ministers had to inferre the opening of them by the verbe Aperire The Ministers in the last article obiect to the Doctors that they haue passed ouer some places of scripture by which it appeareth that faith is the worke of God whervnto say the Doctors that in some one of their writings they haue expresly confessed that faith in as much as it is a gift of God it is a worke of God but in as much as he that beleeueth worketh together with God in beleeuing for Nemo credit nisivolēs no man beleeueth vnlesse he be willing it is a humane work And it is not repugnāt one self-same work for diuers causes to be a worke of God and a worke of man And where they say that the auncient Fathers haue said if not in proper yet in equiualent termes that God could not cause one body to be in diuers places that is false And the Ministers neuer haue nor can shewe the same and contradict their last writing For bringing the reason why the Fathers haue not expresly said it It was said they because they neuer thought that such an absurditie would euer fall into the braine of man Which reason ought to haue place for the saying in termes equiualent as in expresse termes sith one selfe-same thing is signified as well by the one as by the other As touching the rest the Ministers neuer answer to the principall point whereof they haue bene so often admonished and they efsoones admonish them should they a thousand times call this saying a repetition to wit that they are required to bring scripture to proue that it repugneth the order established in the world the truth the wisedome omnipotencie and vnchangeable will of God that one body may be in two places which thing they cannot do but they will answere as they are accustomed that is to say nothing Wherein appeareth that their doctrine is not founded vpon Gods word but vpon their owne opinion or particular inspiration which cannot be but of Sathan For it cannot be of the holy Ghost which is against the common consent of the Church vniuersall And vpon the same are also founded the other articles of their religion albeit they disguise them and promise Gods word to euery purpose A short Aduertisement of the Doctors vpon the Ministers Resolution touching the omnipotencie of God THe Doctors are astonied at the fashiō of the Ministers in their words and writings For they themselues from the beginning of the Conference haue neuer had patience to prosecute conclude one onely point without mingling other things therewithall impertinent to the matter in question as shal appeare by the reading of the acts And before their resolution made of the omnipotencie of God they haue heaped vp all the articles which they could remember and throwne one vpon an other without cause or reason Although the Doctors at their request had proposed the Articles of the Supper And after dispute of the omnipotencie of God to make present the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament to come orderly to shewe and proue that the will of God hath bene such and that there it is But the Doctors well vnderstand the good custome of all them of the pretended reformed religion which is to spet in the eyes of Christians all the articles of the Religion and theyr inuented filthinesse all on one threed to the end that nought bee determined that all abide in confusion and that the Serpent glide awaye hauing cast his venome Moreouer by obseruation of the Ministers answeres it shall bee seene and knowne that they neuer stay vpon any certaine and the same answere but rather of an act alledged out of the scripture where of euery question they haue giuen therevnto diuers impertinent and sometimes vnsufferable answeres Of which the Doctors do admonish them that can read these Conferences and pray them to haue regard to the same and thereof referre them to their iudgement Furthermore the Doctors admonish the Ministers that they may or ought to knowe that all Sects of our times doo cast before the eyes of those whom they will abuse the same beadroll of Articles which the Ministers in theyr Resolution haue gathered together to get audience against the Church Catholique and to bring in theyr heresies and errors vnder the name of the glorie of GOD. Whereof they boaste to bee defenders as well as the Ministers And therefore are they not so acceptable in theyr opinions and conclusions that the Ministers can pretend any right to exalt the power and glorie of God by such mingling and confounding of all matters together Moreouer the Doctors shewe that they may with better reason retort against the Ministers the conclusiō which they pretend to inferre of the subtiltie and craft of Sathan which is as they write that Sathan vnder faire shewe of pietie glideth like a Serpent into the Church of GOD to put therein disorder and confusion and in the end to assaile God himselfe The Doctors do pray each one to consider in himselfe whether the Ministers purpose be not such by their deductions and generally by the principall points of theyr doctrine For vnder faire pretext to roote out some abuses and errors against the word of the Lord which they falsly studie to perswade the world to bee in the Church Catholique And vnder the shadow to preach that they seeke the aduancement of the name of the same Lord they goe about to spoile God of all his proprieties and perfection albeit they no more declare it then Sathan told his meaning to the first man Furthermore the Ministers abase the merit and efficacie of the bloud of Iesus Christ and open a doore by their doctrine to all vices and sinnes Be it so the Doctors will not repeate what the Ministers haue held concerning the omnipotencie of God because they shall fill their writings therewithall But so it is that in their goodly resolution although they suite it with seemely words that God cannot after them but so much as they please to receiue of his wisdome and will which they disguise after their owne sence when it is found declared in the scripture Against the goodnesse of God they hold that he is the author and worker of euill and of sinne Against his mercie they teach that he neuer pardoneth nor will pardon a man which shall
the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament And shall moreouer be verified in that the Doctors haue obiected to the Ministers some arguments against their Supper to make them enter into the same Vnto which they haue nothing answered or so impertinently at the least as one may iudge by the reading of their answere that they fled the Lists as yet also they do by their last writing hiding as much as they possibly can what they thinke of the Supper albeit they haue bene admonished to answere therevnto plainely and to purpose Whether the Doctors or the Ministers retyre shall bee seene by effect For albeit the Ministers will not answer the Doctors will not leaue to aduise them thereof and to manifest to all the world the intollerable errors which bee in the Supper and in all the doctrine of the Ministers Who beeing demaunded dare not confesse and auouch by writing what hath beene written by the inuenters of theyr Supper Now to begin to speake thereof the Ministrrs do maintaine it to be celebrated according to the ordinances of Iesus Christ and after the fashion which the Apostles vsed and all the Primitiue Church whiles it flourished and abode in it puritie Wherevpon the Doctors demaund how long the Ministers esteeme the doctrine of the Supper to abide in it puritie And whether the Church were not then as pure in the doctrine of all the other articles as of this Furthermore whether since that time there is not some place in the world where the true doctrine of the Supper and of other Articles haue beene retained and conserued and whether such doctrine hath euer continued without interruption and in what place and by whom hath it bene preached and set forth and from age to age The Doctors desire the Ministers to make declaration thereof for that it much importeth For as much as before Caluin put forth his Catechisme there was no memorie that such doctrine as he taught had bene held in any Region and the Supper was not celebrated after the fashion and maner as it is celebrated in the Church called Reformed The Doctors would willingly cheare vp the Ministers who are much disquieted in their writing because the Doctors haue said that their Supper differeth not from a common banquet except in that it is worse as being prophane and polluted To meete wherwithall the Ministers haue made a great narration of the whole action of their Supper and by faire shewes which haue a forme of all godlinesse they endeuour to make it very commendable and to couer a new nothing betweene two platters And contrariwise that they may tread vnder foote and abase the thrise precious sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the Masse by renting in peeces some shewe of him as if they were vsed without reason or signification which the Ministers vnderstand not or make semblance not to vnderstand But things ought not to be prised and esteemed by their shewes but according to their value nature and truth Moreouer the Ministers should foresee that all the Sects which bee now in the world against the Church Catholique for the act of the holy Sacrament doo vse at the least as faire shewe as they And were they thereof asked there is not any which would not enforce himselfe to proue that it approacheth nearer to Iesus Christ and his Apostles and the Primitiue Church then the pretended reformed Religion dooth Concerning all which the Doctors referre them to the writings of the Lutherans Zuinglianists Anabaptists Trinitaries Maister Alasco and such like For vnreasonable it is by such faire deceits to preferre the Supper of the Ministers to other Sects to iudge it good holy vnpolluted and according to the word of God but to repute it rather polluted and defiled with impietie for as much as it cloaketh a lye in stead of truth and giueth the shewe of pietie to impietie and falshood Also the Doctors haue not dispraised the Supper of the Ministers for the praises therein giuen to God or for the confession they there make of their sinnes or the preaching if it contained the truth or for other preparation But therefore did they say it was detestable because against the ordinance of Iesus Christ it contained not but common bread and wine and yet that they attributed vnto it some spirituall effect and other faire pretext of godlinesse The which is an abhominable thing and inuentiō of Sathan who endeuoureth by such maner of Supper to abolish and extinguish the true Supper according to the institution of Iesus Christ and to depriue the faithfull of the fruite and veritie of the same Supper in causing them to giue common bread onely instead of the body and blood of our sauiour Iesus Christ The Doctors could as well recyte the euill shewes as the Ministers do recyte the good which be in their Supper as the secrets the new enterprises practised vnder colour and shadow of assemblies made in their said Supper But to the ende the Ministers reproach not the Doctors that Priests spake of armes of contributions c. they passe it ouer with silence and referre them to the thing it self and wil content themselues to declare some causes whereby they maintaine that there is no truth in the same Supper according to the institution of Iesus Christ which are such as follow That in the Supper of the Ministers and theyr like no consecration can be made of the matter of bread wine which are there proposed And that for this cause there is not in the same matter any change made be it before or in or after the vse And by consequence that the bread and wine in such a Supper cannot be but common That no consideratiō is made in their Supper hereby appeareth first that it belongeth not to all persons to consecrate bread and wine in the Supper but onely to those that by imposition of the Pastors and Bishops hands are lawfully ordained according to the succession from the Apostles time euen vnto vs. Now certaine it is that the most part of the Ministers of the Church called Reformed be not ordained by the laying on of the Pastors hands who haue the power by succession frō one to an other since the Apostles Whereof we must conclude that such Ministers vsurping the office which pertaineth not to them cannot make any consecration and giue not by consequence but common bread and wine Which article shall be spoken of when we shall entreat of the sacrifice and Priesthood Secondly to make consecration of the bread and wine it sufficeth not that the person be fit to consecrate the matter but also it is necessary that the lawfull Minister by a certaine meane do make the consecration to wit by blessing and pronouncing of certaine words ouer the matter proposed euen as Iesus Christ hath first obserued it And because the Ministers albeit they were lawfully ordained and that they had authoritie and power to
in the assembly one selfe-same bread to the end that all the partakers thereof should bee by that meane conioyned and more straightly closed in one body each one hath his owne particular the Priest one more great and the people one lesse Seeing also that the Cup is not any way distributed to them Furthermore what dutie do the Priests to inuite and exhort the people to communicate with them yea the Bishops themselues who would at this day repute it great shame to communicate with crafts-men and other inferior people To conclude had the Doctors well noted the custome of the Fathers which caused the Cathecumenians others there not prepared to communicate to depart the place where the Communion was celebrated and that likewise which S. Iohn Chrisostome saith thereof they would shame to defend such an abuse impietie as is that of their Masse And that the people may not bee ignorant of that which these holy Doctors therof saith we will translate the same word for word It is in vaine that the daily sacrifice is made It is in vaine that we abide at the Aultar there is no person which there communicateth I say not this to the end that yee communicate in any sort soeuer but that ye yeeld your selues worthy thereof Art thou not worthy to communicate so art thou not worthy to pray Also a litle after If some one were called to a banquet should wash his hands and sitting at the table should not eate nor taste ought of the meates which should there be serued should he not dishonour and wrong him that inuited him had it not bin better he had not come there Euen so it is with thee Thou art come thou hast sung the Psalme with the rest of the people thou hast confessed that thou wast of the number of the worthy in not departing with them which are vnworthy How then abidest thou and doost not perticipate of the table of the Lord Thou sayest I am vnworthy I answere thee that thou art so whereby also vnworthy of the Communion of prayers Thirdly the gobbets and offalls of Gospels and Epistles the Symbole praier other peeces of the scripture brought all confused and not hanging together said and proposed to the people in an vnknowne language against the expresse commaundement of God and without any edification of the congregation is no other thing then a vaine vsurpation of the name of God against the expresse prohibition which he hath made thereof And such robes are too straight and short to couer the shame and filthinesse of the Masse Fourthly what an execrable abuse is it to say that the Masse serueth to obtaine remission of sinnes not onely for the quicke but also for the dead And that the Priests passing yet further not to forget or leaue any blasphemy behind do diuide their hoste into three parts faigning one part to be for them in heauen an other for them which are on earth and the third for them in Purgatorie For the Sacrament which is not ordained but for confirmation of the faith of the word extendeth not further then the Ministerie nor the Ministerie further then this life As then it is so that they which are in heauen and they likewise whom they faine to be in Purgatorie are dead and departed from this world we must necessarily conclude that as the word cannot be preached to them so also the Sacraments cannot be administred to them And if they be not administred to them that they can profit them nothing The end of the Resolution Answeres to the last obiections proposed by the Doctors touching the Supper THe Ministers say that many things there are in the said obiections impertinent to the matter in question as that they demaund how long the doctrine abode in it puritie touching the Supper and the other articles of Religion Wherevnto they answere that from the time of the Apostles themsemselues there were heretikes and Antichrists as Ebion Cerinthus Simon Magus the Samaritanes and others who by their errors and heresies went then about to peruert the Aposto lique Churches and corrupt the pure doctrine which was therein Wherevntothe Apostles by all possible wayes did manfully oppose themselues reuoking and euer reducing all things to their first institution and foundation of the pure word of God as we see did S. Paul towards the Câ—rinthians and Galathians whose Churches although he had well planted and watered were neuerthelesse corrupred in his life time as well in manners as in doctrine And to that which the Doctors demaund how long after the decease of the Apostles continued the puritie of the doctrine and Religion in the Church of God as well in the Article of the Supper as in others the Ministers answere that so long time it there continued as the word of God was followed and preached To that which the Doctors say afterwards traducing the Supper celebrated in the reformed Church that the Ministers abuse those that are there present nought else giuing them but nothing betweene two dishes the Ministers answere that this blason much better fitteth the Doctors then them because they present not to them whom they haue summoned to their Masses but accideÌ„ts of indiuisible waues and the sight onely of the formes of bread and wine to feed them withall A litle after do they call their sacrifice of the Masse most precious whervpon the Ministers grant that they haue reason so to exault it to attribute thervnto so precious and magnificall a tytle for the great reuenewes and riches which this precious sacrifice hath brought vnto them wherof may well be said that it hath bene vnto them a fleece and golden Myne more abundant then euer was that of Iason or all the Mynes of the East In as much as they haue made the world beleeue and chiefly the founders of Abbayes Priories and other benifices that their sacrifices were vaileable to them for the redemption remedie and health of theyr soules Afterwards without all shame do the Doctors call the Supper of the Lord detestable because there is nought therein offred say they but common bread wine Whervnto the Ministers answere that in their Supper is truly presented bread and wine to the people which after consecration abide in their substance as before but they denie that therfore the said bread and wine be common by reason as heretofore hath bene amply declared to the Doctors that by the preaching of the Gospell and recytall of the ordinance of God both the one and the other is changed as is said touching the vse but not touching the nature To that wherein the Doctors do charge the Ministers to make insurrections conuenticles coniurations conspiracies and secret practises against the state of their Prince vnder colour pretext of their Supper the Ministers answer that the same was not to impugne their doctrine but rather shamelesly to despight and slaunder them And that the fidelitie of those of the reformed religion hath bene knowne