they were not faithful in Circumstances we had cause to jealous them much more in Substances This passing I publickly declared before all present that I had received from such a Gentle-Man two Challenges One as if I had charged upon Popish Doctors eoncerning Repentance that which they doe not mantaine The Other to debate the Controversies of Religion with this person who appeared as Champion for the Romish interest Which my Reverend Colegue and I were ready to doe not against him only but against the whole Conclave of Rome if there present As to the first I repeated to the Iesuit what I had charged upon many of the chief Doctors of the Present Romish Church concerning the Doctrine of Repentance viz that they mantaine That when a man hath sinned haynously he is not bound to repent presently And required him as one whom I presumed to be acquaint with their writings to declare whether it was so or not And if he would deny it I offered instantly to prove it against him The Iesuit answered he came not either to answere Questions or Objections against the Romish Religion but only to impugne the PROTESTANT Religion It was Replyed to him we were not affrayed of his Impugnations but matters behoved to be managed orderly The Religion which we professe being not only the Truth of GOD but also established by the Law of the Land We could not betray our Trust by suffering it only or in the first place to be impugned But he should have all which in Reason or Iustice could be desired Let him answere us either two or six Arguments against Poperie we should answere as many propounded by him against the Religion of PROTESTANTS And this previous question concerning Repentance being of a matter of fact might soon be at an end So as not to impede the General discuss of the Truth of Religion But the Iesuit peremptorly insisted upon his Declinatur That he would answere nothing neither Question nor Argument but only impugne Here it pleased a Grave Iudicious Person who lately before had born Principal Charge in the Magistracie of this Town G. G. P. whom we found in the Lodging with others at our coming to interpose himself thus I am a PROTESTANT said he nor have I any scruple concerning my Religion yet I could willingly hear the controversies of Religion fairly debated But I cannot be witnesse to have the PROTESTANT Religion only called in question or in the first place But it seemes a most just and reasonable proposal which is made that so many objections be first moved against the Popish Religion and then as many against the Religion of PROTESTANTS This the Iesuit pertinaciously declyned stil affirming that he would only impugne Whereupon our PROTESTANT Friends thought it was fittest for us to be gone And indeed we were once at the door removing untill these of his own Party being ashamed of his tergiversing perswaded him at length by their importunity first to be Respondent We returning and the Iesuit shunning to debate with my Reverend and Learned Colegue Master GEORGE MELDRUM who had offered to impugne him the Iesuit was againe desired First to Answere to the Question of fact concerning the Doctrine of Repentance and then Arguments of more general concernment should be propounded But he refuseing to answere to that question unlesse it were framed into an Argument against their Religion I told that for gaining of time I would frame it into an Argument against their Religion though it would oblige Me to a more general accusation of their Church as to that particular then I had delivered in the Pulpit Yet to extort an Answere from him I would doe it hoping afterwards to have liberty granted to propound other Arguments against their Impious and Idolatrous Religion The Thesis which I undertooke to prove was That the Popish Religion is Impious My first Argument was framed after this manner The Religion which teacheth that when a man hath sinned haynously he is not bound to repent presently is Impious But the Popish Religion teacheth that when a man hath sinned haynously he is not bound to repent presently Ergo the Popish Religion is Impious After that this Argument was several times repeated to the Iesuit he denyed the Major Whereupon I tooke Witnesse of all that were present but especially of the Gentle-Man who had sent the challenge to Me that the Iesuit had admitted the Minor viz. That the Popish Religion teacheth that when a man hath sinned haynously he is not bound to repent presently Which was the only thing which I intended to have cleared by this Argument and was more then I had affirmed in Pulpit of that particular And that he only denyed the Major that it is an Impiety to teach so Then I would have been at the propounding of a new Argument Had not he and that Party as seemes to drive of time and to keep Me from propounding other Arguments against their Religion by their clamorous outcrying cōstrained me to insist on that which I never intended namely The confirmation of the Major which of it self might seem evident enough to any who had any sense of Godlynesse It would be too tedious in this Epistolar discourse to rehearse to your HONOURS all that was said in Confirmation of that Major Only I shall briefly relate to you the Result of it The Iesuit in end was reduced to say That when a mans Soul or Body or his Neighbours Soul are in extreme danger he is not bound presently to take care of any of them Which whether it savour of Atheism intelligent Christians may judge Yea some of the Hearers who were not called by us speaking of that busines could make no better Apology for the Romish interest then to say That the Iesuit behaved himself like one who resolved to betray the Romish Cause Then I propounded another Argument which indeed was the first that I designed against their Religion the former being only occasionally put into a Syllogistick frame to extort an answere from him in reference to the Matter of Fact whereof I had been challenged after this manner The Religion which destroyeth all certainty of Faith is Impious But the Popish Religion destroyeth all certainty of Faith Ergo the Popish Religion is Impious Though the Iesuit would make no Answere at all to this Argument yet I proposed a Confirmation of the Assumption which was the only proposition which he could deny from the Tridentin and Florentin Canons which make the efficacy of all Sacraments to depend upon the intention of the Priests who officiat From which it followeth that seeing they cannot have Certainty of Faith concerning the Priests intention all certainty of Faith must be overturned in their Religion They cannot certainly know who is Pope Bishop or Priest Ordination with them being a Sacrament or who is Baptised and consequently they cannot know who is capable to be a Constituent member of a Council or to celebrat the Eucharist and so they
found in it Yet what scurrilous and dung-hil eloquence the Iesuit useth in his next Paper vvithout any provocatioÌ„ is obvious to any Reader But next I appeale to all rationall Persons vvho shall peruse these Papers vvhether he gives not just cause for smart Language by his nauseating Repetitions shameful Preteritions and impudent Calumnies for vvhat I knovv vvithout a parrallel In so much that sometimes he vvould inscribe his Papers vvith a splendid Calumny affirming that I had disovvned all vvhich I had said before So he did in his sixth Paper When these his Papers were disseminated among the Popish Proselyts without my Answeres who tooke all the Iesuits bold Assertions for Oracles and were ready thereupon to clamour through the Country would not such dealing have moved the Choler of a Person of ordinary Meeknesse It was the saying of a great Iurist Non irasci ob eas causas I ob quas irasci oporteat stultoruâ—â— est Yea Aristotle affirmes it to be an Act of meeknesse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And Plutarch was not afraid to say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Yet if either Master Dempster or any for him will hereafter prosecut this Debate in a Rationall and Civill way they may be assured of as Courteous and Civil Entertainment as they shall give But leaving these things I have made bold to superscribe your HONOURS NAMES to these Papers Your known Affection to the True Reformed RELIGION and your zeale for promoting the wel-fare of this Famoâ—â— CITY the Happynesse whereof is more wrapt up in the Interest of Religion then in any Earthly concerne suffer me not once to doubt of your Willingnesse to undertake the Patrociny of the Truths herein asserted The Obligations are so many and so great which ly upon me from this CITY and from the MAGISTRATS and COUNCIL'L thereof especially these twenty and one yeares last bygone wherein I have been through Mercy officiating though weakly in the publick Ministry of the Gospel among you beside the Personall respects which I owe to your selves who at present doe possess the Chair that you may justly challenge a Proprietie in all my performances It is therefore become a Probleme with me whether this poor Present which I humbly tender to you ought not more properly to be termed the Payment of a just Debt then a SYMBOL of GRATITUD But under whatsoever notion you shall be pleased to accept of it I shall surely be the more deeply addebted to you I adde no more only the GOD of all Grace and Truth rebuke a Spirit of Errour Prophanesse and Idolatry which hath Alas fermented too too many in this Place That this City may become a City of Righteousnes a Faithful City wherein Mercy and Truth may meet together Righteousnes and Peace may kisse each other and the Cognizance thereof may be IEHOVAH SH AMM AH The LORD is there I conclude with that Apostolical supplication in behalf of you our Governours The very GOD of Peace sanctifie you wholly I pray GOD your whole Spirit Soul and Boâ—â—â—e preserved blamelesse unto the comming of our LORD IESVS CHRIST So prayeth he who is YOVR HONOVRS In all humble observance Iohn Menzeis To the Impartial READER BEside the historical account of this affair given in the Dedication I have yet some few things whereof to advertise thee Know therefore that necessity and not choyse did put â—e upon this whole undertaking I was provoked by solemne challenges first to a vocal debate then to exchange of Papers and lastly by insolent clamours to the publishing of all I believe no discreet Person will ascribe this appearance in Print to vanity For I acknowledge the debate is inglorious the Papers which I had to examine being so very insignificant I may indeed be blamed for wasting Oyle and Paines to confute such tristes But Mr. Dempster and what dropped from his mouth or pen how frivolous so ever were so admired I had almost said adored by our Romish Apostats that had I not answered him and published both his Papers and mine I should have been judged by many as wanting in duty to the PROTESTANT Interest Who in such an exigence would not rather submit to have his labour censured as unnecessary then to be deemed unfaithful to the Truth T 's true on whose worke had been only to state Controversies and to argue pro and con might have said more in a very few sheets for the satisfaction of an ingenuous lover of truth then is said in all these Papers But I have been constrained to follow the anomalous motion of a tautologizing Iesuits Who could never be induced to speake to any particular Controversie Sundry times I stated Controversies and hinted at impugnations of Romish Doctrines but could prosecute nothing unlesse I would fight with my own shadow for the Adversary had not the confidence to speake to any particular And besides these Papers were not at first designed for the presse but as privat missives to give a check to a petulant Caviller Many things may passe in privat missives which are hardly tolerable in tractats designed at the first contrivance for publick use So true is that saying Aliud est uni scribere aliud omnibus More of my worke stood in discovering the prevarications of the Iesuit then in canvasing his Arguments This readily will not have so savoury a rellish with thee yet I hope it will be judged excusable in me when the circumstantiated case wherein I stood is considered However to compense this losse I intended by way of an Appendix to have added some Arguments against the Popish Religion As First from its direct Contrariety to cleare Scriptures in many weighty points 2. From its Novelty and Dissonancy from the faith of the Ancient Church notwithstanding the vain and deceitful pretences of Romanists to Antiquity 3. From the manifold and grosse Idolatry established thereby 4. From its Contrariety to Catholick Vnity and the Schismatical constitution of the present Romish Church though Romanists have the confidence to glory as if they were the only Catholicks 5. From the Impious reproaches which Romanists and the Present Romish Religion doe throw upon the Holy Scriptures 6. Because the Popish Religion is greatly injurious to the Satisfaction and Merits of our Blessed REDEEMER the LORD IESVS CHRIST 7. Because Poperie overturnes all certainty of divine faith or rather to use the expression of learned Mr. Pool who hath given a blow at the root of the Romish Church because of the Nullitie of divine faith in the Romish Religion 8. Because many of the Principles of Popery have a manifest tendency to practical ungodlynesse and particularly Iesuits who are as it were the soul of the present Court and Church of Rome and the chief Emissaries for promoting the Romish Interest doe mantain principles opposit to sound Christianity and Mordlity Yea there is scarce one Command in the Decalogue whereof grosse and impious â—olations are not justifyed by these Men I whereof a considerable account is
then apologize for me One Objection must needs be removed It may be asked how I doe charge the Iesuit as declyning to have the truth of Religion either examined by Scripture or Antiquity seeing he profers at lest to have one Controversie examined by Scripture Viz. concerning the number of Sacraments But let any rational person though a Romanist if he can but dispossesse his own mind of prejudice cognosce whether my Charge be just How disingenuous the Iesuit was in that seeming profer concerning the number of Sacraments is sufficiently discovered in my Reply to his tenth paper from page 236. to page 241. Now only let these few particulars be considered And 1. When did the Iesuit make this profer Only in his tenth or last paper imeÌ„diatly before his getting out of the nation Why did he it not sooner especially seeing we had been exchanging papers above a year before and he had been frequently appealed to a discusse of particular Controversies Did he not in former papers positively decline to have the truth of Religion examined either by Scripture or Antiquity By Scripture because as he affirmes paper 4. pag. 37. The letter of Scripture is capable of divers yea contrary senses and there is no Religion so false but pretends that the tenets of it are conforme to the letter of Scripture By Antiquity also because sayeth the Iesuit paper 5. page 61 This with as great reason may be assumed by any Christian false Religion Yea doth he not charge me as hatching a new Religion of my own because I appealed to the Fathers of the three first Centuries in his 9. paper page 178. Now what ingenuity or courage is manifested by such a seeming profer at such a time after so many declinaturs ingenuous Romanists may judge But secondly Had there not been weighty Controversies tabled before viz. Concerning the Infallibility of Popes and Councils the Perspicuity and Perfection of the Scriptures Transubstantiation Adoration of Images Communion under one kinde Papal indulgences Apocrypha bookes the Popes Supremacie over the whole Catholick Church and his Jurisdiction over Princes Yea had it not been shewed as the breviry of missives would permit that the Church of Rome doth grosly erre in all these Yet never did he offer to Reply to any of these Let Romanists therefore againe judge whether he who passes over in silence all Arguments both from Scripture and Antiquity to prove the present Romish Religion erronious in all the foresaid particulars and only starts a new Question about the number of Sacraments doeth shew a through willingnesse to have the Truth of Religion tryed either by Scripture or Antiquity Thirdly If there he any Controversie tossed betwixt Rom mists and us where a cavilling Sophister may wrap himself up under Logomachies is not this it which the Iesuit hath pitched upon coÌ„cerning the number of Sacraments Must it not be acknowledged on all hands that as the word Sacrament is taken in a larger or stricter sense a man may affirme that ther be more or fewer Sacraments But of this you may see more at length in the Aâ—swere to the Jesuits tenth paper page 238. and 239. Let it be then considered how willing the Jesuit was of a Scriptural tryal who dates not adventure on the examination of other Controversies and only betaks himself to this wherein the Adversarie may shut himself up in a thicker of Logomachies But fourthly Doth the Jesuit really profer to have that on Controversie concerning the number of Sacraments betwixt Papists and us decyded by Scripture Or doth he bring Arguments from Scripture to prove a precise Septenary of proper Sacraments neither more nor fewer which is the Doctrine of the Present Romish Church Nor at all What then Only that he might seeme to say something he desires me to prove from Scripture that there be only two Sacraments or that there be no more then two which is in very deed to require me to prove the Negative while he himself declynes to prove the Affirmative viz. That there is not only more then two but compleatly seven Though the Iesuits demand be irrational I hope I have satisfied it in its own proper place But what though I had succumbed in proving that there were no more but two proper Sacraments Yet the question betwixt Romanists and us concerning the number of Sacraments were not decyded except it be proven that there be precisely seven neither more nor fewer If there be not a precise septenary one Article of the Romish faith falls to the ground Consequently the Iesuit never submits the Question concerning the number of Sacraments to a Scriptural tryal untill he offer to prove by Scripture a precise sepetenary of proper Sacraments which as yet he hath not done nor I believe will adventure to doe He will find need of the supplement of his unwriten traditions here But neither I suppose will these serve his turne But Fifthly what are all these ensuing papers but a demonstration of the Iesuits tergiversing humor In his first paper he proposed foure postulata like so many Oracles I discovered an egregious fallacy in one of them But to this day he never once endeavoured to vindicat himself He proposed in that paper an informal Syllogisme but could never thereafter adventure on a second which was retorted in better forme against the Popish Religion more wayes then one but these Retortions to this houre remaine unexamined I denyed the Assumption of that long studied Syllogisme but he could never be induced to undertake the probation thereof In that Assumption the Iesuit had said that the PROTESTANT Religion had no grounds to prove its conformity with the letter of Scripture To repell that bold allegeance I appealed him to produce any solid ground of conformity with Scripture which either the True Christian Religion hath or that the Popish Religion can pretend to which the Religion of PROTESTANTS wants But he could never be moved to produce any Sometimes he hinted at the Infallibility of the Propounders of the Articles of Faith but he durst neither adventure to tell whom he meant by these Infallible Propounders or to prove the Infallibility of Romish Propounders or to answere Arguments against their Infallibility At length being outwearied with his tergiversing I produced positive Grounds for proving the conformity of our Religion to the Scriptures and the disconformity of theirs viz. The Perspicuity of the Scriptures in all things necessarie and Conformitie with the faith of the Ancient Church in the first three Centuries Hereupon he positively declyned both Scriptures and Fathers in these first three Centuries as a test to find out the Truth of Religion Therefore finding that still he shunned to come to particulars I pirched upon that much controverted Scripture which Romanists pretend to be as favourable to them as any viz Hoc est Corpus meum This is my Body and proved the sense which PROTESTANTS give thereof to be True and Genuine and the sense which Romanists impose to
Religion but your Prot estant Religion And then your choier is stirred that you should be remitted to our Authors Morney and Grotius I confesse smyling and silence are your best Topicks But laugh you fret you you must hear truth Are there I beseech you more true Christian Religions then one that you say As if there were no Christian Religion but your Protestant Religion Sayes not the Apostle Ephes 4.5 Una fides unum baptisma One faith one Baptisme We shall not therefore declyne this Iest Prove if you can our Religion not to be the Religion of the purest ancient primitive Church in the first three Centuries or that there is an essential difference betwixt their Religion and ours and I shal yeeld to you the Buckler and grant that our Religion is not the true Religion But you may sooner pull the Sun out of his Orbe then performe this Nay if I were not resolved to keep you at the probation of your Assumption I might argue thus That Religion which in all its essentials agrees with the Religion of the purest and most primitive Antiquitie in the first three Centuries must be the true Religion But the Religion of PROTESTANTS in all the essentials thereof agrees with the Religion of the purest and most primitive Antiquitie in the first three Centuries Ergo the Religion of PROTESTANTS is the true Religion The Major you must admit or else condemne the primitive Church yea and Christianitie it self The Assumption is evident by comparing our Religion with the apologies of Tertullian Iustin Martyr Athenagoras Arnobius c. I appeal you out of all the authentick writings of the Fathers of these three Ages to produce one essential difference betwixt their Religion and ours But on the contrary it were easie from this same Principle to demonstrat that your Romish Religion is not the true Religion Thus If the Romish Religion differs in its essentials from the Ancient Christian Religion in the first three Centuries then the Romish Religion is not the true Religion But the Romish Religion differs in its essentials from the Ancient Christian Religion in the first three Centuries Ergo the Romish Religion is not the true Religion â— The Major is clear the true Christian Religion being but one For proofe of the Assumption I remit you to that Formula fidei or Romish Creed contrived by Pope Pius the fourth which is set down by Onuphrius in the life of the said Pope to which all the Bishops of your Church must solemnly swear In which after the Constantinopolitan Creed there be added many articles which never were either in the Apostolick Creed or in the Nicen. Or in the Athanasian or in the Constantinopolitan or in any other Christian Creed much above the space of three hundred years after Christ Nay in it all the articles defyned in the Councill of Trent are declared to be Fides vera Catholica extra quam neme salvus esse potest the true Catholick faith without which there can be no Salvation Now I appeal you to produce any evidence from the indubitat writings of the first three Centuries that this was the faith of the Catholick Church in these three Ages Which if you doe here under my hand I engage to become a Papist If you cannot as I am perswaded you are not able then confesse that your Religion is not the true Christian Religion Nay learned Divines amongst the rest Crakanthorp in his Defens Ecclesiae Anglicanae contra Spalat cap. 15. num 4. And long before him Bishop Iuell in a Sermon preached at London Anno One thousand five hundreth and sixtie appealed the Doctors of your Church to produce either Church Councills or Fathers for the space of six hundreth years after Christ who mantained all these Articles which now are concluded by the forementioned Formula fidei of Pope Pius the fourth to be necessarie to Salvation And yet to this day none of your men have been able to performe this Was it I pray you a point of faith necessary to Salvation in the first three Centuries I might goe much lower to acknowledge the Church of Rome the Mother and Mistris of all Churches Or the headship of the Bishop of Rome over the whole Catholick Church What meaned then the opposition made to Pope Victor by Polycrates and the Asiaticks or by Cyprian and the Africans to Pope Stephanus not to mention others Or was it a part of the Christian faith necessarie to Salvation in the first three hundreth years that Images were to be adored that there is a Purgatorie after this life That Bread and Wine are transubstantiated into the Body of Christ That the Communion ought to be given under one kynd abstracting the Cup from the people As to this last I shall present to you the testimonie of your own Cassander by which you may judge of the rest In Consult Art 22. Satis compertum est vniversalem Christi ecclesiam in hunc usê™ diem occidentalem vere seu Romanam mille amplius a Christe annis in solenn ordinaria hujus Sacramenti dispensatione utramê™ Panis Vinâ— speciem omnibus ecclesiia Chrsti membris exhibuisse id quod ex innumeris veterum Scriptorum tam Graecorum quam Latinorum testimoniis manifestum est You needed not to have offended that I remitted you to Morney and Grotius especially I having joined with them your own Vives and these Tractats not having been written in opposition to you Papists But against Jews Heathens and Mahumetans And it was but shallownesse in you to desire me to squeeze them for one ground to prove the truth of the PROTESTANT Religion seeing I did appeal to all the solid grounds that ever were made use of either by Ancients or Moderns either by these of the Eastern or Western Church either by PROTESTANTS or Papists to prove the Christian Religion against Heathens that it might be examined whether these did not likewise prove the PROTESTANT Religion to be true Squeeze you them all and if you find it not to be so Herbam dabo Onely I must adde that these last named Authors were Persons of such eminent learning that neither you nor I need to be ashamed to learn a lesson from them This much further I have written then once I intended to have done so long as you hold on in your trifling straine But untill you answere to all the particulars of this Paper and to these you have omitted in my former Papers know that I will looke upon any thing that comes from you as unworthie of a Reply I shall close with that saying of Cyprian Epist. 40. Qui mandatum Dei rejictunt et traditionem suam st atuere conantur Fortiter a vobis nobis et firmiter respuantur Aberdene June 9. 1666. John Menzeis The Jesuits fifth Paper An Answere to a fourth Paper of Mr. IOHN MENZEIS wherein he continues to perswade that the grounds which he produced for the truth of the Protestant Religion were not
period to this controversie I had condescended to mention to you Grounds of the truth of the Religion of PROTESTANTS which are not really competible to any false Religion however they may be pretended too It is hard to me to tell whether in your enumeration of them or in your ludicrous way of confutation you manifest more Childish weaknesse and folly And first in the enumeration of the grounds of Religion you number up five more indeed then ever I gave you For the first two namly the Intrinsick objective evidence of Religion and The conformity thereof to the word of GOD were never mentioned by me as two distinct grounds yea your self in your third Paper reckoned these as Synonima's and therefore you but play the child in reckoning them as distinct Neither is the fifth ground which you mention concerning The perspicuity of the Scriptures to be adequatly distinguished from these But your cheife prevarication is in that which you mention as the Third ground of the truth of our Religion namly that Religion being a complex of many divine truth cannot be all proven at once but by compating each of these truths with the word of GOD. I could not have expected that a man who was not in a perfect Delirinm could have bewrayed such stupidity for this was never laid down by me as a Ground of our Religion Nay a Child might have discerned by the very terms that this was onely brought as a reason why in such a short Paper I could not be tyed to give you the grounds of our Religion For it were to tye me as matters are now stated to writ a whole bodie of controversies What an impudent cheat then is this you would put upon your Reader to substitute that as a Ground of the truth of our Religion assigned by me which in very deed was brought by me as a reason why I was not tyed at this time to give you any grounds Henceforth therefore when you goe to impugne any thing in my Papers propose it in my own terms else I must say to you in the words of the Poet. Quem recitas meus est O Fidentine libellus Sed malè dum recitas incipit esse tuus You discover no lesse weaknesse in your trifling confutation of these grounds of Religion for all ye say to every one of them which five times you doe repeat is that a false Religion may alleage all these grounds But herein you play the silly Sophister Ab ignoratione elenchi for the question is not whether the PROTESTANT or true Religion hath grounds which a false Religion may not alleage or pretend but whether the PROTESTANT Religion hath grounds which cannot be verified of a false Religion I freely grant that a false Religion may lay claime to the grounds of the true Religion as the mad man of Athens laid claime to all the Ships that came into the Harbout as his own though none of them were his But the Grounds of the true Religion can never be verified of a false Religion It was not enough then for you to say that a false Religion may lay claime to those Grounds nay nor was it to the purpose unlesse you could also have shewed that the Ground of the PROTESTANT Religion namely Conformity with the Scripture might be verified of a false Religion This you ought to have showen if you had intended a real confutation of my grounds But this you will find as impossible for you as to remove the Earth from its Axis If you looke againe to my last Paper you will finde that in stead of these Five grounds of your mustering I gave only these Two grounds from which indeed the truth of the Religion of PROTESTANTS and the falshood of the present Romish Religion may be discovered The first was The perspicuity of the Scripture in all things necessarie to Salvation which I did confirme by luculent Authorities which you have not once dared to examine The other was From our Agreement in essentials with the faith of the purest and most Ancient primitive Church in the first three Centuries And with all from this I deduced a demonstration of the falshood of your now Romish Church and Religion from the discrepancy thereof in essentials from the faith of the Catholick Church in the first three Centuries which I confirmed from your Formula Fidei or Popish Creed contrived by Pope Pius the fourth which differs in its essentials from the faith of the Church in the first three Centuries Had you been willing that imparriall search should be made whether the truth stood on your side or on ours Had you not here matter enough to work upon both from Scripture and Antiquity But dissembling all my arguments from these principles you onely give this snifling Answere that they who have a false Religion may also pretend that their Religion is also contained in Scripture and is conforme to the Religion of the primitive Church To which I Reply first that these forementioned grounds doe not cease to be grounds for proving the True Religion because Hereticks pretend an interest in them Nay on the contrary Hereticks laying claime to them is a strong persumption that they are the induitable grounds of the true Religion as a Rogues pretending conformity with the Law is so farr from proving that the Law is no discriminating Test betwixt Honestie and Roguery that it is rather a vehement presumption of the con-ratie Secondly Had you resolved to goe to the borrome of the busines you should have proved that either these grounds assigned by me are not proper grounds for the discerning the True Religion from a false or that these grounds doeth really agree to a false Religion that is That a false Religion is perspicuously contained in Scripture and doth agree in its essentials with the Religion of the primitive Church in the first three Centuries or that these grounds doe not agree to the Religion of PROTESTANTS But none of these doe you once attempt to performe Nay over againe you are put to prove any of these which if you doe Tu Phillida solus habeto But thirdly I demonstrate on the contratie that these are sure grounds by which the truth of Religion may be discerned Thus if Scripture be not a sufficient ground and Test to distinguish a true Religion from a false then it must be either because it doth not containe All things necessary to Salvation or because it doth not hold out Perspicuously all these things for there is no other impediment imaginable unlesse with the Infidell you should question the Authority of Scriptures But when we say that the Scripture is the indubitable Test for discerning the True Religion from a false it is to be understood among Christians who acknowledge the divine Authoritie of Scriptures Consequently if the Scriptures be Perspicuous in all things necessary to Savlation as our Divines have often demonstrated and I cleared in my last by irrefragable testimonies both of Ancients and of
your own Doctors then it must be a sufficient ground and Test to discerne a True Religion from a false Your cavill concerning the ambiguity of Scriptures is frivolous For if Scripture had not sufficient objective grounds means of interpretation being duely used to clear its own genuine sense in all things necessarie to Salvation then were it not Perspicuous which is against the Hyphothesis laid down against which you have not adventured to move one Objection So that still it holds that if Scripture be perspicuous in all things necessarie to Salvation it must be a sufficient ground and test to discerne a True Reilgion from a false What therefore remains but that either you show the Scriptures not to be clear in all things necessary to Salvation or else that both the Religion of PROTESTANTS and Papists be brought to this Test and examined which of them are really conforme thereunto But next as to the other ground I argue thus Either the faith of the Catholick Church in the first Three Centuries was the True Christian Religion or not If not then there was no true Christian Religion at all Absit blasphemia If it was then what accords with it in its essentials must be the True Christian Religion and on the contrary what differs from it in essentials cannot be the true Christian Religion and therefore here againe I appeal you either to show an essential difference betwixt the ancient True Christian Religion in these ages and ours or that there is an agreement in essentials betwixt the ancient Religion in these ages your Romish Religion as it is expressed in that Formula fidei of Pope Pius the fourth or else to acknowledge that the Religion of PROTESTANTS is the True Religion and that your Romish Religion is but a Farrago of falshoods and Innovations 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In your penult section you whisle like a child concerning the Clergies assistance In actu primo to give the true sense of Scripture and you call upon me to prove that our Clergie hath such an assistance As if it were a point of our faith that the knowledge of the Clergies infallible assistance for of that onely you must be understood were a necessary prerequisite before the true sense of Scripture can be known But have I not often told you that this is denyed by us and also often appealed you if you could to prove it else I would hold it for confessed that you could not doe it But to call you to your duety is Surdo canere Yea from this your assertion concerning the knowledge of the Clergies assistance I have showed you to be encircled in an inextricable Contradiction from which you have never attempted to expede your self Onely in your last Paper you flinched from your own principle as if you had onely affirmed that the Actus secundus presupposes Actum primum which none denyes Know therefore againe that a Doctor may give the true sense of Scripture and we may have ground enough To beleeve that it is the true sense which he gives though neither he nor we have an anteceden knowledge of his Infallible assistance in actu primo as a civill Judge may give the true sense of a municipall Law and I may have sufficient ground to beleeve that he hath sensed it aright though neiâ—â—er he nor I have antecedent knowledge that he hath Infallible assistance in act primo Though in all these things you have bewrayed shamefull weakenesse and as a Thersires declyned to examine what was reponed to you in all my Papers yet now like a vaiue glorious Thrasâ— in the conclusion you sing a Triumph but without a Victorie Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici What means this insulting that you cry out of the poor posture out Religion is brought too Have you said ary thing that would have reduced the weakest Tyro in our Schools to a strait Have I slipped one Punctillo in any of your Papers which I have not confuted Hath not all you have writen been sitted Ad furfures Can you say the like of my Papers Yet you are bold to compare the Religion of PROTESTANTS to a Knâ—ve pretending Honestie and not able to prove it but Mutato nomine narratur fabula de iâ— He that would compare your Romish superstition with the Religion of PROTESTANTS might aswell compare Catiline with Cato the Rogue Ziba with Honest Mephibosheth or the strumper Thais with chast Lucretia But I shall propose a true Emblem of the stare of our Religion and yours from the state of the present debate betwixt you and me leaving the application to your own self Suppose that Titius and Sempronius stood at the barre and that Titius acclaimed the monopolie of Honesty to himself And withall accused his Neighbour Sempronius as a verie Knave because as Titius alleaged he could produce no grounds to prove his Harestie On the other hand Sempronius modestly shew how easie it were to recriminat and retote all these accusations upon Titius Yet though he might have desired Titius as the Accuser to prove his indytment or else to suffer Secundum Legem talionis and to be esteemed as an arrand Knave yet he would condescend so far as to give Grounds by which his Honesty might be proven But with this Proviso that both he and his Accuser Titius might be brought to the Test that the World might see who was the Rogue and who the Honest-Man The first Ground to which Sempronius appeales is the Law protesting that both he and his Accuser Titius may be judged by that Rule The other Test to which Sempronius referres himself for tryall Is the practise and example of men of untainted Honestie such as Aristides Fabricius Cato c. Protesting likewise that he be stigmatized as the Rogue whose conversation shall be found discrepant from theirs Tïtius though at first a bold Accuser yet not able to endure so accurate a tryall studies all the subterfuges his poor wit could invent And first he declines the Law alleaging it could not be the Ground of tryall because it is ambiguous and admits of diverse and contrarie senses nor can any give the sense of the Law except he be Iufallible Which gift of Infallibility Titius would have all men to beleeve though he cannot prove it to be peculiar to himself alone so as no sense of the Law may be admitted but that which he homologates And for the example of Aristides Fabricius and Cato c. They are too strict Paterns for Titius yet not dareing openly to condemne them he makes this evasion What Knave sayes he is there that may not pretend conformitie both with these and also with the Law But Sempronius gravely answers that however Knaves might pretend conformity both to the Law and Practises of Good-Men yet they had it not And againe he solemnly protests that the matter might be put to exact tryall whether the Accusers or his conversation were agreeable to the Law and these untainted
at first I resolved But whether you terme it New light or Old yet such a light it seems to be that your eyes could not more looke upon it then if they were of the same constitution with the eyes of an Howl In vocal debates I acknowledge the challenging of many faults at once and putting the Opponent to the probation of more propositions then one might breed confusion but when matters are managed by writ there appears no inconveniencie therein However you should the more easily have obtained pardon for this trespas had you at length proven the Assumption which from the beginning was denyed and which in my last you were pressed to prove by a Dilemma which if you had adventured to examine would have constrained you either to professe your self a down right Atheist and Infidel or else to produce some peculiar ground of the true Religion by which both our Religion and yours might be examined But it appears that your whole designe is to decline a tryall Let the Reader here remarke that the Major Minor and the whole Structure of your Syllogisme hath been questioned and that the probation of both Major and Minor are utterly declined by you and to justifie the Forme you have no other evasion but to affirme Negations to be Affirmations Transmit if you will this your conclusion Ergo the PROTESTANT Religion cannot be the True Religion to your Universities of Doway Lovan Paris and Rome and set them judge whether it be an Affirmative or Negative After you had againe repeated that impudent Calumny that I had Recallid the grounds of Religion which I had formerly given You say that now I produce my Achilles namely the Scriptures as perspicuous in all things necessary to Salvation Where you insinuate two manifest Untruths The first is that Now as if never before I had given the Perspicuity of the Scriptures in all things necessarie as the ground of our Religion The other is that this is given as my Onely ground which are both notorious falshoods in the matter of fact For neither was that the only ground I having also given another Viz. The conformitie of our Religion with the faith of the Christian Church in the first three Centuries from which I did demonstrate the falshood of the now Romish Religion because of its discrepancie from that Ancient Christian faith Neither was my last Paper the first time that I produced these grounds Have you made lies your refuge Had you no way to support your lying cause but by such manifest untruths Doe you not give occasion to your Reader to say Perîsse frontem de rebus As for that which you terme my onely ground namely The Scriptures as perspicuous in all things necessarie which by way of derision you terme my Achilles I have no cause to be ashamed of that ground Scripture hath proven against Atheists Infidels and Hereticks and will prove against you Romanists also to be a brasen wall You make the fashion of moving some Objections against the Perspicuity of the Scriptures in all things necessarie But before you were in Bonâ fide to have objected against it both the termes should have been cleared and you should have examined the Authorities whereby I confirmed it from Chrysostome Austine Jrenaeus yea and from your own Aquinas and Sixtus Senensis But to let this passe Cum caeteris erroribus I proceed to the examination of your Objections which I hop I shall make appear to be nothing else but Jugling shifts to use your own termes to keep off from the examination of the maine controversie Onely that the state of the question betwixt us may be clear Let it be remembred first that we doe not affirme that all Scriptures are Perspicuous and clear as the Rhemists in their 1. Marginall Note on Luke cap. 6. And other Rhomists have traduced us Secondly That we doe not exclude means of interpretation as Bellar lib. 3. De verbo Dei cap. 1. Prateolus in Elench Haereseon lib. 17. cap. 20. And Sixtus Senensis Biblioth lib. 6. Annot. 152. Charge upon us And thirdly that by Perspicuity we doe not means that all things are expresly in so many words in Scripture But that they are either expresly in Scripture or by firme and clear consequence are deduceable from it And what is deduced by firme and clear consequence from Scripture may well be said to be Perspicuously contained in Scripture Even as a Conclusion which is luculently deduced from the Premisses is said to be clearlie contained in the Premisses And this I adde also against Bellarmin who in his fourth booke De verbo Dei cap. 3. States the controversie as if Papists onely mantained against us Totam doctrinam sive de fide sive de moribus non continer◠expresse in Scripturis For if by Expresse he means in so many formall words neither doe we affirme it Fourthly by this Perspicuity we means an externall and objective evidence and therefore this perspicuity is nothing impeached by the misunderstanding of Hereticks or others For their mistakes flow not from the obscurity of the Scripture but from the defect Exparte subjecti or from the indisposition of their understanding◠who hear or read Scripture And fifthly by things necessarie may be meaned either these truths the explicite beleefe whereof is necessarie to Salvation Necessitate medii so as without the beliefe thereof Salvation cannot be had or also these articles the beleefe whereof are onely necessarie Necessitate praecepti Many things may be necessarie this latter way which are not necessary by the first kynd of necessity Therefore you should have cleared what kynd of necessitie you meaned For us we freely acknowledge al things necessary either of the wayes are contained in Scripture though not with equall clearnesse But these things which are of absolute and indispensable necessitie to Salvation are either expresly revealed in Scripture or luculently deduceable by firme consequence from that which is expresly revealed therein And of this last is our present controversie I have told our Iudgement but you like a jugler bring Objections yet doe not tell your judgement nor I beleeve can you tell the judgement of your Church I could here have set down the discrepant opinions of your men in reference to this point for which I shall remit you to Gerard Tom. Vlt. Loc. Com. De Script cap. 20. § 422. 423. Where he showes that some of you mantaine all things in Scripture to be obscure as your Rhemists your Divines of Colen and Canisius but that others grant many things in Scripture especially these that are necessarie to be clear as Hieron ab Oleastro Thomas Costerus Catharinus c. You are therefore required if you can to set down the judgement of your Romish Church in this matter as clearly as I have done ours And you may if you will in the entrie consider this Dilemma Either you have a Definition of that Church which you call infallible against the perspicuity of the
the rest returnes upon your own Pate But Thirdly had PROTESTANTS devysed new Means of interpretation which had not been made use of by the Church in all times you might have had some pretext for this demand But we doe cordially subscrive to that of the Apostle 2. Peter 1.20 No prophesie of Soripture is of any privat interpretation I shall therefor remit you to Whitaker controver de Scriptur Qu. 5. cap. 9.10.11 12. Chamier Tom. 1. Panstratiâ— Lib. 16. A. cap. 4. ad finem Zauchius Tom. 8. tract de script â—u 2. Gerard the Lutheran In Uberiori exegesi loci de scriptura cap. 25. Where you will find the means of interpretation acknowledged by PROTESTANTS and the way how they are to be used luculently set down and vinditated from the cavilâ— of Stapletâ—n and others Or if your prejudice will not permit you to take them from our Authors you may take them from Austin in his Foure bookes de Doct. Christ Where it is verie remarkeable that though he be verie copious in assigning rules for the right understanding of the Scriptures yet he never once makes mention of that Infallible assistance of the Bishop of Roâ—e which is an undoubted evidence that Austin was not of your now Romish faith By this we understand what an impudent calumny that is of Bellarmin lib. 3. De verbo Dei cap. 1. who when he is stateing this question of the perspicuity of the Scriptures charges reformed Divines as mantaining Scripturam esse tam apertam in se ut sine explicatione sufficiat ad controversias sidei terminandas As if we mantained that there were no need of interpretation of Scripture which none of our Divines doe affirme And therefore to cut off that cavill I purpofly added that caution of Using the means of interpretation albeit on the other hand you would abuse this concession to derogat from the Scriptures perspicuty but with equal ingenuity with your Cardinal Fourthly Whereas you ask Whether the people without preaching can duely use the means of interpretation and come to the knowledge of things necessary to Salvation A ludibrious question as proponed by you implying as would seeme a clear Contradiction in it self For preaching is one of these means of interpretation and therefore it is all one as if you had asked whether people may at once use all the means and yet not use some of them Is it not a manifest Contradiction to use them all and not to use them all at once But to take of all mistakes we say that attendance on publick preaching is one meane to which people are tyed Necessitate praecepti when they may have it which is clearly confirmed by these Scriptures 1. Thess 5.20 Despise not Prophesieing Luke 10.16 He that despyseth you despyseth me Rom. 10.17 Faith cometh by hearing Yet doe we not affirme that the Publick preaching of the Word is a meane so indispenlably necessary that the true meaning of the word can in no case be had by the use of Other means such as reading Private instruction c. When the publict preaching is providentially denyed To this purpose you may see Ruffin lib. 1. Hist Eccles cap. 9. 10. But Fifthly there yet temaines one of your judicious queries namely Whether a false Religion may duely use the means of interpretation I think you would have asked whether people professing a false Religion may use duely the means for it is a verie incongruous speach to say That Religion useth means But passing that incongruicy I answere breifly that people professing a false Religion are bound De jure to use the means duely though De facto they doe not use them duely so long as they adheare to A false Religion For as I said from the beginning of this debate there is such an Objective evidence in Scripture truths that if they be not perceived when sufficiently proposed it is still through some defect on the part of the subject As doth luculentlie appeare from 2. Cor. 3.4 If our Gospel be hid it is to them in whome the God of this world hath blinded their minds And Joh. 7.17 If any man doe the will of GOD he shall know the Doctrine whether it be of GOD. This far have I condescended to satisfie your Extravagant Queriet and I hope have sufficiently vindicated from all your cavills this First ground of the true Religion taken from The Perspicuity and Perfection of the Scriptures But doe not expect hereaftere to meet with the like indulgence as if I would take notice of your ' Digressive questions when you neither observe rules of disputing nor keep close to the maine hing of the controversie I cannot here but put you in minde againe of another ground which I proposed in my last two Papers from which the truth of our Religion may be demonstrated namely The conformity thereof in all its essentials with the faith of the most Ancient Church in the first three Centuries This you still dissemble as if you were deafe on that eare Onely in the close of one of your observations concerning the perspicuitie of the Scripture to confuse these two grounds together that so you might escape in the darke and that your tergiversation and not speaking to this ground distinctly might be the lesse observable you doe impertinently throw in this word That the claims to antiquity is common to other sexts I beleeve you would have said Sects But besides what hath been said in my former Papers to redargue such a trifling Reply now I adde that the falshood of the claime of the other Sects may be evicted by holding out the discrepancy betwixt the faith of the ancient Church and false Religions As I proved the falshood of your Romish Religion from the dissonancy betwixt your now Romish faith or Formula fidei of Pope Pius the fourth and the faith of the ancient Church in these ages which as yet you have not once endeavoured to answere though now it be the third time put to you If you had intended to say any thing to purpose against us PROTESTANTS to this particular you should have instanced Some essentials of the Christian ReligioÌ„ wherin the ancient Church did differ from us But I find that the chief facultio of your Romish Champions lyes in braging and false accusing How often have they accused PROTESTANTS as Innovatours And who are such pretenders to antiquity as they But it is a true character which Scaliger gave long agoe of our and your writers Non sumus nos novatores sed vos estis veteratores And therefore to vindicate the truth which we mantaine from all their reproaches I have offered to dispute the cause of Religion betwixt us and you both from Scripture and Antiquity But you doe shift the tryall from both these grounds as much as a Theif would shift to be examined by a Iurie You are therefore againe required to answere my argument From the diserepancy betwixt your now Romish Creed and the faith of the
Ancient Church And to instance if you can One difference in essentialls betwixt the faith of the Ancient Church and our Religion else it must be held for confessed that our Religion which you so much reproach is The truely Ancient Christian Religion and yours but the tares which the envyous one did latly sow in the Lords field and that your pretence to Antiquity is no better then the Gibeonits mouldie bread Ies 9.5.12 Towards the Conelusion you are so discreet as to upbraid me as Altogether ignorant of the nature of supernatural faith Because foresooth I would not acknowledge That the assent of faith which is given to articles of Religion must be founded upon the foreknowledge of the infallible assistance of the propounders thereof I suppose you meane the Clergie of whome you spake in your former Papers But First were you not concemed if you had looked to your reputation before you had taken the boldnesse to reproach me for Ignorance in this matter first to have cleared your self from these Contradictions wherein I have demonstrated you to be involved from your former assertions concerning This infallible assistance of the Clergie Secondly were you so shallow as not to discerne that you intangle your self in a New contradiction by this your present discourse For if everie supernatura assent of faith to a divine truth must be founded upon The foreknowledge of the infallible assistance of the propounder thereof then the first assent to The necessity of the foreknowledge of this assistance in the Propounder must presuppose it as being according to you An Act of supernatural faith And yet it cannot presuppose it because it is the first assent which the person hath concerning that assistance And consequently if it did presuppose a former knowledge of that assistance it should be first and not first Is not this a goodly Religion which you have that you cannot move one step in mantainance thereof without intangling your self still in contradictions But Thirdly either This necessity of the foreknowledge of the infallible assistance of the propounder of divine truths which you make the foundation of all supernatural faith can be proven or not If not then all your faith is founded upon a fancie which cannot be proven If it can be proven why shunne you to doe it I haveing so often required it of you But now I will lay this Dilemma about you If it can be proven either it must be from Scripture or from some Unwriten Word to use your Romanists phrase Not from Scripture for according to you no sense of Scripture can be known unles first the Infallible assistance of the propounder thereof be known and therefore when one doubts of the infallible assistance of the proponer it is impossible according to your principles that this can be proven from Scripture Nor can you prove it by any Unwriten Word For you have asserted in your former Papers that a point of Religion To be true and to be conforme to the Writen Word of GOD are Synenima's and that the one of these cannot be proven before the other Therefore you cannot prove the truth of this point conceming the Clergies assistance meerly by an unwriten Word else it should be known to be true before its conformity to the writen Word were known which is the Contradictorie of your former assertion But besides to know the sense of a Decretal Canon of Councill or Tradition or what ever else you will runne to as distinct from the Scriptures of GOD there is as great necessitie of The foreknowledge of the assistance of the propounder thereof as for the knowing of the true sense of Scripture And therefore before I assent to the true sense of a Decretal Canon of Councill or Tradition by a supernatural Act of faith I must first know that the propounder is guided by an infallible assistance and consequently when one doubts of this infallible assistance of the propounder neither can it be proven by anie Vnwriten word Decretal Canon of Councill or Tradition Expede your self from this Dilemma if you can without destroying your own principles by which you are locked up in Contradictions Nay more I here freely offer will you or any prove to me either From Scripture or Vniversal Tradition That the foreknowledge of such infallible assistance of your Clergie is a necessarie prerequisite before I can give a supernatural assent of faith to an article of Religion and I will turne Romanist Can I make a fairer proffer to you Will you not have so much compassion upon me as to make me your Proselyte But I may divine here and not be a Propher you will as scone remove the Earth out of its place according to Archimedes bold undertakeing as to prove your Hypothesis from either of these forementioned grounds Fourthly when you talke so liberally of this Assistance of the Propounder of articles of faith ought you not to determine whome you meane by This Propounder I hope you extend it not to all the people nay nor to all who have received Orders It was 〈◊〉 pretended that everie one of these was infallible whether therefore is it the Pope or General Council or both that you meane If you cannot agree among your selves who this Infallible Propounder is doe you not reel as to the Foundation of your faith I therefore require you againe to determine to me if you can An Infallible Propounder of articles of faith agreed upon by you Romanists and to produce the evidences for this infallibity from Scripture or Vniversal Tradition or Canon of general Council You would make the world beleeve that you had an infallible Propounder of divine truths and yet you cannot agree who he is Nor have any of the parties into which you are broken in this matter Evidence from your Romish principles for the infallibility of him or them whom they would place in Appâ—llo's chaire Pitch therefore on whome you will as your Iufallible Interpreter and let us see if his Infallibilitie can abyd the Test. Who knowes not how impiouslie your Popes have erred and that both In cathedra and extra cathedram How Pope Liberius subscrived to to the Arrian confession of the Council of Sirmium and to the condemnation of Athanasius How Pope Honorius being consulted by Sergius of Constantinople gave out sentence for the Monethelite Heresie How Pope Iohn the twentysecond denyed the immortalitie of the Soul Yea not to insist further in takeing this Dung-hill your own Platina in the life of Stephanâ—s the sixth records that it is almost the constant custome of the succeeding Popes to infringe Or wholly abrogate the decrees of their Predecessors Are these the infallible propounders of divine truths upon which our faith must be built It were easie also to give an account of the errours and lapses of Councils though I should be loath to derogat in the least from their due esteeme I shall therefore at present but mind you of that luculent testimonie of Austin lib. 2.
whol structure of your Syllogisme which is the marrow of al you have hitherto said You have bestowed many years if my information fail not in studying this your rare Syllogisme Could you not in all that space have put it In modo figura But it seemes you will take as many years to prove either the Major or the Minor thereof But so much hath been said to these things before that now I shall adde no more least I should seeme Cum Batto balbutire In my first three Papers I required you to prove the Assumption of your Syllogisme But this like a Thersites you still declined which I could not but looke upon as an evidence that you succumbed in your probation I did likewise appeal you to produce a ground of the true Christian Religion which doth not agree to the Religion of PROTESTANTS But neither durst you adventure upon any Hereupon I might have turned my back upon you as a smattering fellow wholly incapable to mantaine a Theological debate But to render you the more inexcusable and to convince all to whose hands these Papers may come how desirous I was to have the truth examined I condescended Ex superabundanti though not tyed thereto by rules of disputing to produce in my fourth Paper Two irrefragable grounds by which the truth of Religion may be examined Viz The perspicuity of the Scripture in all things necessary to Salvation And Conformity with the faith of the most Ancient Christian Church Hereupon I have urged with all the earnestnesse I could in my Fourth fifth and sixth Papers that both your Religion and ours might be brought to these Tests and examined thereby namely both by Scripture and Antiquity But you like one who is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 self condemned knowing in your conscience that it is a wicked cause which you doe mantaine have still declined And the scop of this your seventh Paper is yet to decline the examination of Religion by either of these grounds But Veritas non quaerit angulos It is he who doth evill that hates the light Joh. 3.21 Yet have you the impudencie in this your Seventh Paper to say that after many toes and froes now I have produced two grounds as if either I had delivered some inconsistencies or had been driven to produce these grounds by force of your arguments or that now only in my last Paper these grounds had been first produced All which are manisest untruths Is this your gratitude to him who had so liberally gratified you with the production of these grounds When you were clearly at a Nonplus The two grounds which I produced I did prove in my Fourth Paper to be solid and sufficiently distinctive of the true Religion from a false and from them I did demonstrate the truth of our Religion and the falshood of yours for Rectum est sui obliqui Index but you have not once dared to examine these arguments While therefore you hold on in this your tergiversing way it might be enough for me to say to you with the Poet Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua Ought you not either to acquiesce to these Grounds produced by me or to produce others more solid especially you being the Opponent But yet once more I offer against you to disput the truth of our Religion both from Scripture and Antiquity and shall withall examine the scurvie pellucid and tergiversing evasions which you have made use of in this your seventh Paper You repeat here againe your three cavils against The Perspicuity of Scripture in all things necessary to Salvation or rather your three cowardly subterfuges to decline a Scriptural tryal but without any confirmation deserving a review I should the more patiently have borne with these taudologies had you been pleased for clearing the state of the controversie betwixt you and us to have delivered the judgement of your Romish Church concerning the Perspicuity of the Scripturs I told you the judgement of PROTESTANTS and shew you how they are injured by your writers I required you with the like plainness to set down the judgement of your Romish Church and the rather because your Authors are found to be inconsistent with one another in this matter And though I have looked upon your ablest Controversists namelie Bellarmin lib. 3. De verbo Dei cap. 1. Gretser In defensione capitis primi libri tertii Bellarmin De verbo Dei and Stapleton lib. 10. De principijs fidei cap. 3. Yet can I not find one Canon of a Council produced by any of them as to this particular Would they not have done it if they had any Doe you not manifest to the World you play the jugler when you dare not adventure to tell the judgement of the Romish Church even in that against which you doe so eagerly cavil You think you have disgraced all that I have writen by calling it A heap of digressions copied out of controversie bookes I find you indeed still better at calumniating then at arguing If my Paper did containe any impertinent Digressions why doe you not particularize them But I have already unfolded the Mysterie That which you cannot answere must be branded as a Digression to palliat your ignorance I acknowledge I have improven against you somewhat of the writings of Ancients of Schoolmen and of modern Coutroversists both of your side and of ours nor am I hereof ashamed This I hope is not the base Plagiarie trade which I leave to your Iesuits as being better acquainted with stealing other mens Papers Have you not heard how your famous Iesuis Antony Possevin did steal from Doctor Iames a learned PROTESTANT his Cyprianus redivivus and put it in his great Apparatus under his own name for which you may find how sharply he is chastised by Doctor Iames in his excellent treatise concerning The corruption of Scriptures Councils and Fathers by the Prelats Pastors and Pillars of the Church of Rome Part. 2. page 9.10 Goe trace backe all the Papers which I have sent to you and see if you can fix any such trespasse upon me As for you I confesse we have no cuase yet to accuse you of ripping up the bowels of many Authors All the Authority wherewith you have hitherto loaded us is Master Dempsters 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 You need not fear that any thing which as yet hath come frō you will be standered as Olens lucernam you onely ramble out any fleeing tergiversing Shifts that come first In buccam as a man who minded not to dive into the controversie However once yet as I have said I will trace your footsteps In your first Cavill you alleadge that The Perspicuity of the Scripturs cannot serve as a distinctive character of the Religion of PROTESTANTS from a false except I first prove that the PROTESTANTS have the true letter and translation and true sense of the letter To which you say I answered nothing but remitted you to our PROTESTANT Authors Here we
collectivly taken or the Catholick Church cannot erre in Essentials if the faith of the Catholick Church in these ages can be found out in the undoubted writings of the Fathers in these times then Conformity with their Religion will irrefragably prove Our Religion to be the True Religion as to all Essentials Yea if from the writings of the Aâ—â—ients in these ages we can find what was the faith of any one true Particular Church we may solidly argue thence as to the Truth of Religion in essentials For though a true particular Church may erre yet so long as it is a True Church it retaines the essentials of faith else it were not a true Church This Distinction which I have proposed is not mine onely but of our PROTESTANT Writers in this question concerning The Churches infallibility As you may see in Whitaker De Ecclesia quaest 3. cap. 1. Doctor Field His way to the Church lib. 4. cap 2. And others So that it is no evasion I propound to you but the received Doctrine of the Reformed Churches and hence the rest of this your cavil on which you foolishly dilate may be cut off If we grant say you Any infallibility to the Church in these three Centuries how did that gift expyre in the fourth and after following ages It is easily Answered This infall blility which we grant to the Collective body of the Church as to the Essentials and Fundamentals of faith agrees to her in every age else the Church in some ages should be utterly lost But though we grant that the whole Catholick Church cannot erre in Fundamentals be not so foolish as to apply this to your Romish Church You might as well say that Italians are the collective body of mankind as that you Romanists are the collective body of the Catholick Church Remember Jeroms smart admonitioÌ„ In Aepistola ad Evagrium Orbis major est urbe Only this I adde that though the Catholick Church be exempted from error in Fundamentals in every age yet the Church in all ages is not blest with Equal purity and splendor For in some ages the Integrals may be much more vitiated then in others Yea some particular Churches may erre in Fundamentals and so cease to be True Churches and many of these who were eminent Lights in the Church may be smitten with these Fundamental errors and the sincere Professors of the truth may be reduced to a great Paucitie and through persecution be scattered into corners as in the dayes of Athanasius Quando totus orbis miratus est se factum Arianum Lest therefore you cavil further at the restricting of my argument to these First three Centuries you may remember the first occasion of it which was this as you will find in my Fourth Paper I was speaking of the Ancient Apologists in the first Three Centuries who pleaded the truth of the Christian Religion against Heathens And I appealed both to Their grounds and their Religion in these dayes that it might be tryed whether our Religion were not agreeable to theirs in all Essentials and whether the solid grounds which they brought for the truth of the Christian Religion did not agree to the Religion of PROTESTANTS This I say was the occasion of limiting the argument to these ages though it might have been extended further Yea and as then we told was extended further by Bishop Juel and Crakanthorp even to the Sixth Centurie so also is it by learned Whitaker Contra rarionem quintam Campiani Nay others have extended it to all ages Nor need you carp at the limiting of the argument to the first Three Centuries For the faith of the Catholick Church in these Three ages was the faith of the Catholick Church in all Ages For there is but one Faith and therefore if it be proven that our Religion was the Religion of these ages it doth consequently follow that it was the faith of the Catholick Church in all ages So that this is the most compendious way to try whether a Religion be the faith of the Church in all ages by ascending to the fountain I mean to these first three centuries concerning which there is least doubt made by any Party and which was lesse viriated by superstition or errors in integrals then was the Church in some after times I come now to your second Evasion wherein you pretend That conformity with the Ancient Church is at least no distinct ground from conformity with the Scriptures seeing the truth of the faith of the Ancient Church can onely be proven by its conformity with the Scripturs But the vanity of this subterfuge doth easily appeare For First whether it be a Distinct ground or not yet if it be a Real ground why decline you to be tryed thereby You must surely have an ill conscience and know your wares to be sophisticat that they cannot abide the light Secondly If these grounds be not distinct how doth your Melehior Canus In his booke of commone places distinguish them giveing the first place to the Seripturs of which he treats Lib. 2. only the Sixth to Ancient fathers of whome he discourseth Lib. 7 Or how doth Bellarmin and other your Controversists ordinarly distinguish their argumeÌ„â—s founded on Scripture from the arguments founded upon Antiquity But Thirdly wholly to remove this cavil I grant that the truth of Religion in any former age may be proven from its conformity with the Scriptures and therefore that conformity with the holy Scriptures is the onely Primarie ground of discerning a True Religion from a false whereupon I did put it in the first place Yet we may abstract Pro hîc nune from this way of procedour and argue from the faith of the Church in some ages without proceeding at the time to examine the truth of every point by the Scripture And the rather seeing in Scripture there are general promises of the perpetuity of the Church and consequently of preserving in her all fundamental truths If therefore we can have evidence that this was the faith of the Catholick Church I meane of the whole collective in any age then I may conclude this is the true faith and the True Religion and consequently what is agreeable thereto must also be the True Religion for nothing can be consonant to truth but truth From this it appeares that sisting in the Religion of the Catholick Church in the Second and Third Centurie as a Principle upon the general promise of the Churches perpetuity without a further progresse for the time to examine the truth of every particular it may become in some manner a Distinct ground of argueing from that according to which every point is severally reduced to Scripture-tryal Even as in Subalternas sciences the Conclusions of the Subalternant science are made use of as Principles without making a further progresse The Astronomer takes the Geometricians Conclusion as a Priuciple not seeking a Demonstration thereof So may the Divine in some cases take the faith of the
Catholick Church in the Second or Third Centurie and argue thence as from a Principle especially when he hath to doe with an Adversarie who may admit the faith of the Ancient Church as a Test and will decline the Scriptures under pretext of obscarity or ambiguity Yea as I have said before A Divine may in such a case argue from the faith of one true Particular Church Suppose that an Original writ were either lost or blotted and blurred from which there hath been several Transumpts taken and that there were two persons pretending to have Transumpts but each of them questioning the fidelity of the others Transumpt This Question could not be decided by the Original it being supposed either to be lost or blotted utterly and blurred and neither of the two Parties willing yeeld to one another But there being found another Transump which both the Parties acknowledge to have been the First Copie that was taken from the Original Could there be any way so good for decyding the Question next to the compareing of both the Transumpts with the Original if it could be had or were clear as to compare the two controverted Copies with this uncontroverted Transumpt In this case would not he who shunned to bring his Copie to the tryall leave a strong presumption that his Paper were but a forged draught Now though all the authority which the unquestioned Transumpt hath was derived from its conformity with the Original yet in these circumstances it may have the place of a Test to distinguish betwixt true and adulterat Copies The application is obvious The Papists like old Hereticks accuse Scriptures as being blotted and blurred yea as in a manner lost The Originals if you may be beleeved being corrupted albeit indeed Scripture is clear and by the good hand of GOD preserved to this day Yet seeing you sometimes seeme to magnify Antiquity as if you did acknowledge the faith of the Ancient Church to be a faithful Transumpt from that authentick Original of the Scriptures what more condescension can we PROTESTANTS in this case show to you Then seeing you will not be judged by the Scriptures which are out Heavenly Fathers authentick Testament then I say to acquiesce that the cause betwixt us be tryed by that Transumpt which you seeme to acknowledge And when you decline this tryal also doth it not speake you out to be real Prevaricators and Cavillers But because some may wonder whence it is that you doe not onely decline a tryall by Scripture but also by Antiquity I will here open the Mysterie that lurkes under it Though you Romanists seeme somtimes to magnify Fathers Councils and Antiquity yet there are none who set them more at nought then you as if you put me to it I will make good by particular instances And therefore laying them aside it is onely your present Romish Church that is your sure Author-hold And by your present Church your Jesuited Partie meanes only the Pope I doe not stander you Hear your great Champion Gretser who comes in to succour Bellarmin at a dead lift Tom. 1. Defens cap. 10. lib. 3. Bellarmin De ver be Dei colum 1450. Quando Ecclesiam dicimus esse omnium controversiarum fidei juaicem intelligimus Pontisicem Romanum qui pre teâ—pore praesens naviculam militantis Ecclesiae moderatur When we affirme sayeth he the Church to be the judge of all controversies of faith by the Church we understand the Bishop of Rome who for the time being Governs the ship of the Militant Church So that there is no security for your unhappie Religion unlesse ye be made Chancelours in your own Assyze If it be asked how shall any know that the Romish Church is the True Church The answere must be because she that is her head the Pope sayes she is the True Church If it be againe asked how shall it be known that the Pope is the Head of the Church The answere must be because he sayes he is it But how shall it be known that he is Infallible in so saying The answere must be because he sayes this is his prerogative And how shall it be known that the Romish Religion is the onely True Religion The onely plaine answere is because the Pope whose grandour is mantained thereby sayes it is the True Religion And how shall it be known that the Religion of PROTESTANTS is a Wrong Religion Because forsooth the Pope whose triple Crown is shaken by the Religion of Protestants sayes that it is an heretical Religion Alace abcel that poore simple people should be so miserably cheaâ—ed and seduced GOD I trust will erre long open their eyes to see these damnable impostures You had asserted in your last That every supernatural act of faith must be founded on the foreknowledge of the infallible assistance of the Popounders of divine truths To which in my last I had Replyed many thing most of which according to your custome you never once touch I must therefore reminde you of the heads of them As First you were demanded who these Infallible Propounders are Whether you Romanists can agree upon them Whether you can produce grounds for their infallibility from Scripture or Universal Tradition I hope you will not pretend every one of your Shavelings to be infallible Yea I brought luculent evidence that both Popes and General Councils may erre and have erred Secondly I asked whereupon the Faith of these pretended Infallible Propounders was builded and wherein they differed from Enthusiasts Thirdly supposing Pope or Council or both had this Infalliblity yet seeing the people receive their sentence from the mouth of such fallible and fallacious persons as you how can they be assured that either you have not taken up the sense of their Decrees wrong or that for base ends you doe not falsifie them And Fourthly how it can be known who are your Clergie men that are gifted with this assistance seeing the efficacie of Sacraments of which Ordination with you is one dependeth on the secret intention of the Priest But none of these doe you once touch Are not you fitter to be a Trencher Chaplaine to a Biggotted and implicit Proselit then a Disputant I Might here also comit you with the late Patrons of your Traditionarie Way particularly with Master Cressy who in his Exomologesis Cap. 51. Sect. 4. Acknowledges That the pastors of the Church proceed not now as the Apostles did with a peculiar infallible direction of the holy Spirit but with prudential collection not alwayes necessarie and that to the Apostles such an infallible certainty of means was necessarie but not so now to the Church And in his chap. 40. Sect. 3. He acknowledges the unfortunatness of that word infallibility And said that he could find no such word in any Council and that there appeared no necessity to him that any PROTESTANT should ever have heard that word named let be pressed with so much earnestness and that Master Chillingworth hath combated that word
approbation of your Authorised Licencers to the eternal ignominy of your Church But Thirdly it appeared say you By the Conference betwixt us that we often propounded in Pulpit problematick points in stead of your Dogm's How so I pray you Was there nothing spoken of in that conference but of School-Problems Did I not conclude the impietie of your Romish Religion because it destroyes all certainty of divine faith from your Florentine and Tridentine Canons which suspend the efficacie of Sacraments from the intention of the Administrator For all certainty of divine faith according to you Is grounded upon the infallible assistance of your clergie But if Ordination which is one of your Romish Sacraments depend upon the intention of the Ordainer you can have no certainty of faith who are your Clergie men or who have this pretended Infallible assistance For how can you be certaine of other mens intētions To this you had not the confidence to make any Reply Can you say that this is a meer Problem Are the Canons of Councils problems with you Is it a Probleme among you whether that be an impious Religion which destroyes all certainty of faith But perhaps you will say There was another question tossed whether a man after he hath sinned be bound presently to repent I confesse and the sober Christian may judge how much that man differs from an Atheist who affirmes this to be a Problematick point Yet to put a stop to your lying misrepresentations concerning this particular I must crave leave to doe these two things I shall first give a true account how that Question concerning Repentance came to be moved at the Conference and in Order to this I must give a touch of the occasion of the Conference sit self Secondly I shall examine a little whether that point may justly be reckoned among Problems and how far it may be charged upon your Church of Rome You may readily exclaime on these discourses as Digressions but I am drawne to them by your Calumnies For the First the real occasion of that Conference and of moving that Question at the Conference was this In April last I received two challenges from a Gentle-Man of your profession The First was that I had wronged your Authors by affirming some dayes before in a Sermon concerning Repentance that many of your Doctors did mantaine That when people sinne they are not bound immediatly to repent Yea the Gentle-Man was so confident as to promise by the Messenger whome he sent to me that he would turne PROTESTANT if I would make good that my Assertion To whome I answered that I was sure of a convert if the Gentle-Man would stand to his promise and if he would come to my Studie his eyes should be judge whether my Assertion were true by reading their own Authors Some dayes after the Gentle-Man came to me not to have the truth of his former challeng examined but with a New provocation to me and to my Colegue Master MELDRVM who then was with me to debate at his Lodging with a Catholick scholer as his phrase was concerning the truth of the Religion of PROTESTANTS We told him we knew how conferences of that nature had been misrepresented by Papists and therefore to obviat such misrepresentations we condescended with him upon some Conditions of the meeting which you know were violated by your Party When we came after we had regrated the violation of promise made to us I told I had received the Two foresaid Challenges and desired you who there appeared as their Champion First to answere whether I had wronged your Authors in the forementioned Assertion concerning Repentance and then we should willingly disput the point of Religion not against you onely but against the whole Conclave of Rome if they had been there present To the First you refused to give an Answere and as to the Second you said You came onely to impugne the Religion of PROTESTANTS but not at all to answere arguments against your Romish Religion But it was Replyed to you that our Religion was not onely the truth of GOD but also was established by the Law of the Land and therefore we could not suffer it onely to be questioned in such a publick way But would you answere us Six arguments against Your Religion we should answere you other Six arguments against Ours Or would you answere us Two we should answere you other Two But you stifly denyed to answere at all till at length by the importunity of your friends you were moved to condescend to answere Yet as to the Matter of fact Concerning the Doctrine of Repentance you utterly refused to answere at al unlesse I would frame it in an Argument against Your Religion Wherefore to gaine time and to satisfie the Gentle-Man who had been my Accuser I framed an argument in more general termes concerning the Doctrine of Repentance then I had spoken thereof in Pulpit hoping to have had liberty thereafter to propound Other arguments of more general concernment against Your Religion The argument touching Repentance ran thus The religion which teacheth that a man when he hath sinned is not bound presently to repent is impious But the Popish religion teacheth that a man when he hath sinned is not bound presently to repent Ergo the Popish religion is impious You admitted the Minor and denyed the Major That it was an impious religion which so taught Whereupon I tooke all the Auditors to witnesse and in special the Gentle-Man who had been my Accuser that you admitted this to be the doctrine of the Romish Church That a man who hath sinned is not bound presently to repent And consequently that I had spoken truth when I affirmed from Pulpit that many of Your Romish Doctors taught this But now you being ashamed that you should have admitted such a Doctrine which all sober Persons are ready to cry down as impious to be the doctrine of the Church of Rome you have devysed this after-evasion to terme it a Problematick point Whether it ought to be looked upon as a probleme I may speake a little anone Now let the Reader observe This question concerning Repentance was onely moved by me to vindicat my self from the accusation of the Gentle-Man who had provoked me to the Disput hoping to have had occasion for Other Arguments afterwards And therefore when you had admitted the Assumption that is was the doctrine of Your Romish Church I would have left that argument as having obtained all by it which I intended Yea I did propound the argument in larger termes then I had spoken of that matter in the Pulpit onely to extort an Answere from you So that whether it be a Problematick point or not you could conclude nothing from it as to the ordinary straine of our preaching seeing you refused to speake to it in these termes wherein we delivered it in Pulpit Nay more whoever will terme this point a Probleme yet you are not In bonâ fide to doe it
our Reformed Divines have often offered to disput against you Romanists the controversies of Religion out of the Fathers Did I not show you this before from Juel Whitaker and Crakanthorp And how often doth learned Calvine in his Institutions confute you Romanists from Antiquity as your transubstantiation Lib. 4. cap. 17. § 14. Your Communion under one kinde Ibid. § 47. 48. 49. 50. The necessity of Auricular confession Lib. 3. cap. 4. § 7. Your Papal Indulgences Lib. 3. cap. 5. § 3. 4. The Popes supreamacie over the whole Catholick Church Lib. 4. cap. 7. § 3. 4. 5. c. Yea and not to insist in reckoning out particulars when he is treating of Councils and their authoritie Lib. 4. cap. 9. § 1. Veneror Councilia sayeth he ex animo suoque in honore apud omnes esse cupio and a little after Sicuti ad plenam doctrinae nostrae approbationem totius Papismi eversionem abunde verbo DEI instructi sumus ut nihil praeterea requirere magnopere opus sit ita si res flagitet magna ex parte quod satis sit ad utrumque vetera Concilia nobis subministrant where Judicious Calvine affirmes that out of Ancient Councils both the Religion of PROTESTANTS may be confirmed the Papal superstition confuted From all this may it not appeare how ludibriously you say that I seeme to be hatching a New Religion of my own Am I not offering to defend the received Religion of PROTESTANTS and to have the truth thereof tryed By its conformity with the faith of the Ancient Primitive Church Is the Ancient Religion a New Religion Is the Religion both of Ancients and PROTESTANTS a Religion peculiar to me Will you not blush that such foolish Non-sense should have droped from you But you have another trifling Shift Before say you That conformity with the faith of the Ancient hurch in the first three Centuries be admitted as a Test by which the truth of Religion may be discerned it ought to be proven that all the necessaries of the Christian Religion are contained in their writings which are now extant But First may it not with better reason be resorted on you that before you had rejected it from being a Test you ought first to have proven that there were some necessaries and essentials of the Christian Religion no where to be found in any of the writings of these three ages If any be wanting produce them and your evidence of their absolute necessity If you can produce no necessarie article that is wanting why decline you the tryal But the truth is you Romanists mantaine such a desperat cause that if either Scripture or Antiquity be Umpyre you must surely be condemned There is no way to get a favourable Interloquitur for you but by setting up your Infallible Propounders that is your own selves to be Supreame judges to the whole World If such a Religion be not to be suspected let the World judge But Secondly doe not you Romanists boast bigly sometimes of Universal traditions And here by the way I tel you I shall never declyne to have all the Essentials of Religion tryed by the famous rule of Vincentius Lyrinensis in Commonitorio primo contra Haereses cap. 3. Quod ubique quod semper quod ab omnibus est creditum But if any of the necessaries or essentials of Christianity are not to be found in the writings of the Three first Centuries how shall we have a Perpetual and universal tradition for these seeing the current is supposed to be broken off at the fountain for three hundred yeares thereafter Must we take the voice of your Present Church as an Oracle to tell us what was beleeved by the Church so many ages agoe though there be no record left that such a thing was ever beleeved We must examine her Credentials before we become so implicite to her in matters of Fact But Thirdly If any of the Necessaries of Christian Religion be altogether wanting in the writings of Ancients of these ages how did your Gualterius the Jesuit undertake to prove the truth of your Religion by the testimonies of the Church in all ages It is true he was most unhappie in his undertaking in so much that Chillingworth in his Defence of Doctor Potter part 1. cap. 2. § 119. affirmes that he heard an able man of your Religion say That Gualterius had not produced one pertinet testimony in the first three Centuries The like may be said of Ioannes Andreas Coppenstenius a Predicant in his Historical supplement to Bellarmine who undertakes the like but with as little successe Yet doe not such undertakings suppose that all necessary and essential truths of Religion may be found in the writings of these times Sed laterem lavo I doe but lose my travell what wonder to see a Thief declyne the Court and jurie He knowes upon tryal he must be condemned I have pressed you to come to be examined either by Scripture or Antiquity or both or to produce any other solid way of discerning a true Religion from a false but you declyne all Have I not just cause therefore to discharge finally with such a babling Lucifuga After I had signed my last Paper that known Distich dropped from my pen in a Postscript Roma diu titubans variis erroribus acta Corruct mundi desinet esse caput At this you behoved to have a fling though you scarce said any thing to the controversall points of the Paper Bot sie say you yat yis your Prophesie be not lyk your Patriarche Lutheris Prophesie who when he lept out of the Churche did brage yat with tue yeiris Preaching he wold abolische and eliminat all Poprie out of the world sa yat ester yir tua yeiris yair wold be no mor in the world nather Pop nor Cardinalis nor Monkis nor Nunnes nor Mase nor Belis c. I have set down your own words with your own spelling that the Reader may discerne what a Famous Clerke you are But here I must Querie you in a few particulars and First how call you this my Prophesie Are they not the lines of a Germane Prince Were they not sent to Pope Gregorie the ninth by Frederick the second the Emperour who felt the heavie hand of your usurping Popes as other Princes have done Secondly how cal you Luther our Patriarch We indeed honor Luther and Calvine as precious servants of GOD. But we make neither of them Pope or Patriarch or Master of Sentences Non sumus jurati in verba Magistri Our faith is pinned to no mans slieve Though you be implicit Slaves to the Pope yet we to no man Thirdly what Church I pray you doe you mean when you say that Luther did leape out of the Church Is it the Catholick or universal Church But when I pray you did the Roman Church become the Catholick a part become the whole Are not the Grecian Russian abyssine c Churches parts of the Catholick
nothing that is sufficient to distinguish your Religion from a false religion it remaines alwise in that state as hath been often told you that a man is in who is affirmed indeed to be an honest man but such an honest man that there is no difference betwixt him and a knave Likewise I omit here that long discourse whereby you disclaime Calvine as the author of your Religion and claimes to Iohn Hus and the Albigenses at last to be upon your side though the world knowes that theyâ— were not of your Religion Likewise I slight your long patrocinie that you make to defend your patriarch Luther that he did not leap out of the Catholick Church but only out of the Romish Church though if you had done compleatly this defence you should have shown what Visible Church was then in the World to the which he did adhâ—â—e and with which he did keep externall communion when he left the Roman Church Good Sir leaving all your Paterga's remember that the occasion of this debate was your continual railing in Pulpit against Catholick Dectrines and being desired to give some good solid ground for the truth of your own religion whereby both your own might be confirmed and others induced to imbrace it You did very stoutly undertake the bussines did bragingly protest that ye would mantaine the truth of the PROTESTANT Religion against whomsoever before whomesoever or in whatsoever place or time but when it came to the purpose and you were desired to produce your grounds and reasons whereby it might be mantained to be a true religion Your first refuge was that you as the Defendant was not obliged to produce any ground but all the burthen incumbed on me as the Opponent to prove that you had no grounds And in this you behaved your self just as if one should come as sent from the Council to impone upon the L. Provest and venerable Councill of Aberdene a charge to apprehend a persone as suspect of Disloyalty to his Prince and the L. Provest desiring to see his Commission he should reply that he was not obliged to show his Commission but that the Provest would prove that he had no Commission and that his Commission was sufficiently proven by this that there could not be produced reasons to show that he had no commission So you have undertaken to mantain the truth of the PROTESTANT Religion and being demanded that you show your grounds whereby the truth of it may be mantained you reply that you are not obliged to produce grounds but that another should prove that you have no grounds not considering that religion is a positive thing and a complex of positive dogm's and so cannot be mantained to be true but by producing of positive grounds and the shifting to produce them will make all to give sentence that it is destitute of solid grounds Your next refuge was that your Religion was proven to be true because it was conforme to Scripture that is to say to the true sense of the letter of Seripture Now this pretended conformity was proven to be meerly imaginary and groundlesse because as it is impossible that a thing can be conforme to a true sense except it be supponed that there is existent a true sense so it is impossible that a thing can be proven to be conforme to a true sense exceept it be proven that there is a true sense Now you were desired to lay aside your diffused Pulpit railing style and by a judicious and school way to produce some soild ground whereby mens understanding might be convinced that PROTESTANT Religion hath the true sense of the letter by the holy Ghost of the letter of Scripture To this you answered first that it makes a Non-sense to say that a Religion cannot be proven to be conforme to the true sense of the letter of scripture except it be proven that there is a true sense Now I ask you where lyes here a nonserse or point me out any thing here that is not most cleare Indeed you in place of this my proposition did substitute one of your own and with your own words and I willingly grant to you that yours makes a Non-sense Next you seeme to chasse because I taxt your discourse to be founded upon grosse ignorance both about the nature of Formall Precisions and about the nature of True Religion and to this you reply first that to speake to you of Formall Precisions is a Pedantick thing But is it possible that you who professeth your self to be a Divine should so slight Precisions since they are the very quintessence of all superiour sciences and Aristotle might teach you that there is no science of particulars but in so far as the are reduced to some commone abstraction or Precision and that every science hath his own particular abstraction whereby it is both constitute and distinguished from all other sciences Next you remit me to your School-Boyes who will teach me the nature of Formall Precisions I am glade that Scholers are so learned but if it be so they out-shut their Master and knowes more nor their Master at least showes to know as appeares in this same answere that you make here For I telling you That the objective grounds of precisions is separability and that this is to be sound betwixt truths revealed in Scripture and True Religion and that on both parts because True Religion is separable from conformity with Scripture Since there was true religion in the World before there was any Scripture writen And on the other part All the truths revealed in Scripture might be though they componed no Religion to wit If GOD had so revealed them that he had not imposed an Obligation upon us to beleeve them as he might have done or wherefore might he not have done it Now to impugne this you bring texts of Scripture to prove that De Facto this obligation to beleeve is not seperat I speake of Separability and what GOD might have done and you argue against Actuall separation as if I had said that De Facto there is no obligation to beleeve things revealed in Scripture Are you not ashamed of such ignorant mistaking Or were not well applyed to you those civill termes that your self use in this Paper to wit that you behoved to be drunke or dreaming when thir things escaped your penne Likewise how grosse mistaking is it to say That I granted that a Religion to be true and to be conforme to Scripture are Synonima's whereas I said only this Ad Hominem and to argue you out of your own principles who admits no rule of divine truth but the writen word And in this you imitat many other of your Champions who as I told you else where did cite for positive doctrine of Fathers and Scholasticks the objections they made against themselves Your second answere is that the sense which you give to the letter of Scripture is proven to be a true sense because it coincids
grounds to prove its conformity with the Scriptures but also to stop the mouth of a Caviller I declared to you what was that ground and I tooke it from Georgius Scholarius his Third Oration in the Councill of Florence and did appeale thereunto for the decision of all controversies betwixt us and you But you never once touched this ground How then could you imagine that you had confuted the conformity of the Religion of PROTESTANTS with Scripture Doeth the Devil abuse the imaginations of Jesuited Hereticks as somesay that he doeth the fancy 's of Witches making them imagine that they doe the thing of which they only dreamed Fourthly did I not give a Direct Answere to your Objection by a formall distinction If any thing should have been taken notice of ought not this Yet ye wholly overleap it A goodly Dispistant indeed Fifthly I refuted some new Cavils which you started to prove That the truth of Religion ought not to be tryed by its conformity with the faith of the Ancient Church in the first three Centuries But you found my Replyes thereto so thornie that you have not dared to meddle with them Only you have an impudent Calumny concerning that matter which I may afterwards touch Sixthly whereas as you had accused Calvine and our Reformers as contemners of Antiquity I shew not only that Calvine had confuted your Religion from Antiquity but also that Antiquity is more contemned by you Romanists then ever it was by the Reformed Churches I brought many Instances hereof from Bellarmine Maldonate Melchior Canus Brisacerius and Cornelius Mussus but all these you smother in silence Thus have I given an overly touch of some few of your Omissions Whoso will be at paines to compare my ninth Paper with your Tenth will find you guilty of many more Only now let me ask are these the Digressions the Parerga's and the Superfluities which you talk of in my Paper Doe not every one of those touch the Cause Have they not a genuine rise from Your Papers Who that regarded either truth or his own reputation would have overleaped all those You have made great haste to transmit your Papers to me but you have still left your worke behinde you I have gotten Ten Papers from you but not One Answere Take a view of your Omissions and you will find all My Papers unanswered Your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your after thoughts have need to be set on worke to supplie your Omissions In the next place I shall gleane up some of your Vnfaithfull misrepresentations in doing whereof I shall not need to stand to the precise Method of your Rapsodick Paper And first you have such a shamelesse fore head as to say That I had recanted the confineing of my discourse concerning the conformitie of our Religion with the faith of the Ancient Church in the first three Centuries This is that Calumnie of yours at wich I was hinting in your Fifth Omission How could you hatch such a manifest unteach Let all the Iesuits in Europe play the Criticks on My Papers and see if I have recanted one Syllable that ever I avouched in any of them I told indeed in my Last that you like aâ— Dreamer â—haâ— substituted that Concerning conformitie with the Fathers of the first three Centuries as a Second Answere which I had given in my Eight Paper to your Cavil concerning the sense of Scripture whereas in all that Eight Paper of mine there was no expresse mention at all of the Fathers of the first three Centuries Is my discoverie of your Mistake a recanting of ought that ever I had said concerning the Fathers of the first three Centuries Doe you not behave your self like a Dreamer when you substitute Quid pro quo Any hint I had in my Eight Paper at that Matter was to challenge you that though in your Eight Paper you had been reduced Ad metam silentii in that point all the Cavils mentioned in your Seventh being so fully confuted that you had nothing to Reply in your Eight yet you durst not adventure to have the truth of Religion examined By its conformtie with the faith of the most Ancient Church In my Ninth I did expresly confute some New Cavils which upon further deliberation you had started in your Ninth against the tryall of Religion By the conformitie thereof with the faith of the Ancient Church in the first three Centuries So farre was I from recanting or refusing to admit that as a discretive Test for trying the truth of Religion Surely the first 300. years were the flower of the Primitive Church Hence is that testimony which Egesippus in Euseb lib. 3. hist Eccles cap. 29. gives to the Church in those dayes Ad ca tempora Virgo pura incorrupta mansit Ecclesia 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Church then had continued a pure and a chast Virgin Shall you never have the ingenuity to Recant such impudent Calumnies But I nothing wonder that you cannot be induced to have the truth of Religion examined By its conformitie with the Church in these Centuries For as a Learned Divine hath observed In these ages most of your present Râ—mish tenets were unknown to the Wold Your Papal Indulgences were then unhatched Purgatorie fire was then unkindled to make your kitchin 's smoake The Masse was then uumoulded Transubstantiation unbaked The Treasurie of Merits was then unmiuted The Popes transcendent power was uncreated Ecclesiasticks were unexempted And deposing of Kings was then undreamed of The Lay People were not cozened then of the Cup Communion under one kinde onlie was not then in kind It was not then known that Liturgies and Prayers were publicklie made in an unknown tongue They did not then worship or adore any wooden or breaden God They worshiped that which they knew and that in Spirit and in truth Thus Simon Birkbeck in his Tractat entituled the Protestants Evidence Sect. 3. pag. 18. Edit 3. By which you may perceive That it is no new sect of my own that I am hatching when I appeale to the Religion of the Church in the Three first Centuries as you foolishly whisper in your Ninth Paper But because you use these invidious words of Confyning my discourse to the three first Centuries You may remember that in my Seventh Paper I cleared that the First Restriction of my Argument to the Three first Centuries for proving the truth of our Religion and the falshood of yours was occasioned by the discourse I was then upon concerning the Ancient Apologists in these Centuries And that my argument might have been extended further as in such like exigences it had been further extended by Juell Whitâ—ker Crakâ—nthorp and other learned PROTESTANTS Now only I tell you that if you have the confidence to try the truth or falshood of Religion By the consonancie thereof with or dissonancie to the faith of the Catholick Chruch in the first three Centuries you shall find that I never intended so to astrict my self
to these ages as not to goe further After we have gotten the verdict of the First three Centuries I shall not then declyne to trace you successively through all succeeding ages to this day And I am confident upon a through discusse it will appeare that Your present Romish Faith as to all its Essentials was never the faith of the Catholick Church in anie age let be in All. And upon the conttarie neither you nor any of your Adherents shall be able to prove that our Religion differs in Its Essentials from the faith of the Catholick Church in anie age Now in such an enquiry can we fall upon a more convenient Method then to beginne at the fountain I meane at the most pure Ancient and according to Egesippus Elogie Virgin Church in the First three Centuries If our ReligioÌ„ be found conforme thereto in all Its Essentials as I am coÌ„fident it shall then sure it is conforme to the True Catholick Religion in all ages If yours be found dissonant thereto as I doubt not but it will then sure it is dissonant to the Christian Religion in all ages For there is but one faith Eph. 4.5 and one True Religion But Secondly you have the boldnesse to upbraid me with Two contradictions Only before I propose them I must minde you that neither of these pretended Contradictions are in my Ninth Paper to which you now answere So glad it seemes you have been of any thing to fill up the roome wherein you should have answered that Ninth Paper If my Former Papers were guilty of these ContrÌ„adictions were you not very obtuse who did not discover them more timely Yet let the unpartiall Reader judge of these Contradictions The first alledged contradiction is That upon the one hand I should have affirmed Religion to be a complex of many truths which are to be severally tryed as the severall pieces of gold in a purse and that I would descend to the severall particulars yea and that all points necessary to salvation were contained perspicuously in Scripture Yet when you called me to give a list of all these particular points then I disclaimed my former example of a purse and alledged that I was not obliged to descend to particulars I see now I was in no mistake when I said that you walked by that Machiavillian principle Calumniare audacter c. Resume all my Papers and see if ever I refused to descend to a tryall of any particular Controversie betwixt you and us Yea have I not all this time been pressing you to this and you dared not to peep out of your lurking holes Have I not passed through many of the Controversies in particular to which you have not adventured to make any Reply Produce the page or leafe in any of my Papers where ever I disclaimed that forementioned example Of trying the severall peices of gold by the touch stone yea or one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that once I gave you under my hand But I shall ingenuoussy tell the truth of that which you so deceitfully misrepresent and when I have done contradict me if you can I said indeed That Religion is a complen of many truths and to prove them all as matters are now stated bemint us and you Remanists were to write a body of controversies But yet that I should never decline to examine any of those with you And I have further said that all the necessarie points af Christian Religion were contained perspicuously in the Scriptures But when you in stead of comeing to a discusse of parâ—â—cular points only started that old threed bare Cavill Concerning a precise catalogue of necessarie points I shew That it was but a meer tergiversing shift in you and demonstrated by many reasons which you was never able to answere That there was no necessitie lying upon me in order to the decision of the maine controversie at present betwixt us to determine a precise Catalogue of necessarie truths You may call in for your assistance the rest of your Society and try if you can find a reall Contradiction in all this Indeed if I had promised to give you a Catalogue of points necessarie to Salvation and hereafter had refused to give it oâ— if since I declared a readiness to debate with you any point in Controversie betwixt the Reformed Churches and the Church of Rome I had declined to performe my promise you might have accused me of Inconsistencie with my self Or if haveing â—ffiâ—med that all things necessarie to Salvation are clearly contained in Scripture I had denyed any article of faith necessarie to Salvation to be contained clearly in Scripture you might have charged me with a Contradiction But you and your Associats may canvase what I have said againe and againe and try if you can find either a Contradiction or that I have declyned any thing that is necessarie for the decision of the present Controve sie Cannot all the points in Controversie betwixt the Reformed Churches and Pomanists be particularly examined without Desyning a precise catalogue of truths simplie necessarie to Salvation Have I ever said that everie one of your Romish errors is Fundamentall Or that no points of truth are clearly revealed in Scripture but only Fundamentals or such the explicite belief whereof is absolutly necessarie to Salvation Nay I tell you that on maine reason why I did and doe forebear for the time to pitch upon such a Catalogue was because I stand now to justify the Religion of PROTESTANTS against your Cavills But the Reformed Churches in their Harmony of Confessions have not so farre as I have observed determined that Precise Catalogue of necessaries So that in pirching upon such a Catalogue at the time I should leave my worke to follow a tergiversing vagrant Yea some of our Divines particularly acuâ—e Chillingworth in his booke entituled The Religion of Protestants a safe way to Salvation part 1. cap 3 § 13. Affirmes that more may be necessarie to the Salration of some then of others And therefore to call for a precise catalogue of points necessarie to the Salvation of every one were as if one should call for a Dyall to serve all Meridians or for a coat to serve the Moon in all her Changes You may likewise remember that I shew in my Sixth and Seventh Papers that Romanists are no lesse concerned to give a Catalogue of necessaries nor exposed to fewer difficulties in doing it then we and that in this matter your Authors have been often Non-plussed by PROTESTANT Divines For you have made points Necessarie which the Ancient and Catholick Church never held as Necessarie And so have separated your selves from the Catholick Church of IESUS CHRIST But to let you see that I am still ready to performe what ever I undertooke pitch you upon any point controverted betwixt the Reformed churches and You whether belonging to the Essentials or Integrals of Religion that is whether simply necessarie to Salvation or not and you shall find that I
on him to none of which you have answered one word But though you snake away in the dâ—â—ke when you are Non-plussed and though your scutvie behaviour merit no Answere yet for the satisfaction of others into whose hands these Papers may fall I Answere there was a Church on Earth with which Luther had visible communion For clearing whereof By having visible communion I understand that there was a visible societie who did professe the same Religion which Luther did as to all the essentials thereof If you ask what that Church was I answere the Catholick visible Church And doe not wonder that I speak of a Catholick Church as distinct from your Roman There was a Catholick Church before there was a Church at Rome and the Church of Rome in her greatest integritie was but a part of the Catholick When therefore Luther departed from the present Apostatick Church of Rome because of her imperious usurpation upon the Catholick Church he retained Communion with the rest of the bodie who did never submit to her usurpations For when Luther did brake off from Rome there remained foure gaeat Christian Patriarchships disunited from Rome viz of Constantinople Antioch Alexandria and Ierusalem Whatsoever Christians therefore under any of these Patriarchships or in other remot Nations have not ruinated any Fundamental Article of the Christian Religion and are united to the True Catholck head of the Church the LORD IESUS CHRIST PROTESTANTS doe professe Communion with all these I doe not deny but there may be some differences betwixt us and other Churches as to some Integrals of Religion But diversitie of Integrals makes no different Religions so long as the Essentials remaine the same You may learne if you know not from Hoornbeck beside others in his Summa controversiarum lib. 11 de Graecis pag. 978. c. Edit 2. how Iosephus Patriarch of Constantinople sent Demetrius a Deacon of that Church to Wittemberg in the year 1559. to enquire into the state of the PROTESTANT Churches and how Demetrius after an half years abode at Wittemberg carried with him to the Patriarch a câ—piâ— of the Augustan Confession translated into Greek by Philip Melanchton under the name of Paulus Dâ—lscins You may also learne from the forecited Author how Hieremiaâ— another Patriarch who afterward sat in the same Chaire kept correspondence by letters with the PROTESTANT Divines at Tubing from the year 1574. for a long time thereafter And though they had there own debates about some particular points which your Stanislaus Socolovius labours invidiously to exaggerat ye both the Patriarch himself doth give GOD solemn thanks That the doctrine of the PROTESTANTS was in so many things consonant to the doctrine of the Greek Church And likewise Johannes Zygowalas a person of great account with the Patriarch in his letter which he wrote to Martine Cruzius in the year 1576. declares that it may be evident that the Greek Church and PROTESTANTS doe agree In continuis causam fides praecipue continentibus articulis or in the most important articles of the Christian faith and that in other things they may easily come to agreement and the rather as Stilling fleet in his Rational account of the PROTESTANT Religion part 2. cap. 8. § 15. relates out of the same letter from David Chytraeus de statu Eccles Orient 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. That is Since neither party doth agree with the Bishop of old Rome or with the church which joines with him but both doe oppose the evill customes brought in by him Have you not heard how Cyrill Patriarch of Alexandria wrote to George Abbat Archbishop of Canterbury in the year 1616. and did commend to him a Student Metrophanes Chrysopulus to be bred in the Vniversities of England and to be farther instructed in our Religion And accordingly the said Metrophanes did avoid Romish Superstition and alwayes joine with the worship of the Church of England as is testified by Doctor Morton in his Grand imposture of the Church of Rome cap. 14. sect 3. The Letters exchanged betwixt the Patriarch and the Arch-Bishop you may find published in Ephraim Pagitts Christianography edit 3. part 3. You may read also in the forecited booke of Hoornbeck of the respect which Meletius Patriach of Contstantinople had for the PROTESTANT Churches and of his aversation of the Bishop of Rom's usurpation But above all memorable is the Confession of saith put forth by Cyrillus Lucaris Patriarch of Constantinople in the year 1631. in the name of the Greek Church exactly conforme to our Reformed Religion for which your bloody Jesuits did persecute that Holy Matyr to the death I know that this his Confession was afterward distallowed by Cyrill Berrhoeus and Parthenius two factious and bloody men who by ill means got into the same Chair whome Hoornbeck spares not to call Pseudo-Patriarchs But besides that they shortly suffered for their villanies being disgracefully as the same Author testifies ejected from their Patriarchships the Lord also stirred up another Parthenius in the same Chair to vindicat the fame and cause of Cyrillus Lucaris The aversation which the Greek Church have of you Romanists is sufficiently known to the World At the time that one Testimonie of your Prateolus in Elench haeres lib. 7. tit de Graecis pag. 202. might suffice Where he sayes of the Grecians Summum Pontificem Christi Vicarium omnesque Latinos pro excommunicatis habent that is They looke upon the Pope of Rome and all these of the Latine Church who adhere to him as persons excommunicated To wich you may joine that of Alphonsus à Castro lib. 6. de Haeres tit de Eucharistia haeres 2. Where he not only testifieth that the Greeks doe anathematize Latinos omnes all who are of your Latin Church but also that they Will not permit your Priests to consecrat on their Altars or if they doe it at any time with out their knowledge or coÌ„sent they wash their Altars before they coÌ„secrat on them as judging them polluted by your Priests Nay further Ephraim Pagit in his Christianography Part. 1. cap. 4. branches forth the agreement of the Greek Church and many other Oriental Churches with the PROTESTANT Churches in the chief heads wherein we differ from the Papists But because some Heresies destroying the Foundations of Christianity are objected to these Churches such as the Denyall of the procession of the holy Ghost from the Son to the Greek Church and Nestorianism to these under the Patriarch of Mosal and Eutychianism to many others I shall remit you to see what is particularly said for the vindication of the Greek Church by Doctor Field in his way to the Church Lib. 3. cap. 1. Where he undertakes to show both from Greek and Romish Doctors of great fame I hat the difference betwixt the Greek and Latine Church touching the procession of the holy Ghost is meerly verbal Yea and he endeavoures to clear many other Oriental and African Churches from Nestorianism
your councill of Trent and your Pope Pius the fourth in his formula fidei have declared to be necessary to Salvation If she did then you may be pleased to produce evidences hereof wherein you may perhaps finde more difficulty then you are awarre of If she did not then is your present Romish Church a new upstart and Schismatical Church of a distinct faith from the Catholick Church in all ages You may notice how Doctor Field in the Appendix to his fifth booke part 2. cap. 2. goes about to prove that the Church of Rome is not now the same that it was before Luthers appearance Things being now defined as Articles of faith necessarie to Salvation which were not so before I sincerely professe the Noveltie of your Romish Faith and the Schismaticall constitution of your Church are not the least grounds of my disatisfaction with your Religion You may desire your Masters to calculate to you the Antiquity of the Romish Canons establshing the points following as Articles of faith viz First The equality of unwriten traditions with the holy scriptures of GOD. 2. That concupiscence in the regenerat is not properly sinne 3. The desinit number of seven properly so called Sacraments neither more nor fewer 4. The Popes supreamacie above general Councils 5. Your Indulgences and Purgatorie 6. The abstraction of the Cup from the people 7. Your Transubstantiation 8. The infallibility of the Church of Rome 9. The adoration of Images 10. The Popes jurisdiction over secular Princes Not to mention more at the time I believe you will find some of these latter then Luthers appearance Others but a little before and all of them not only short of Primitive and Aprstolick antiquity but notone of them within the Verge of the Three first Centuries You may if you will take a briefe hint of the novel dates of most of these Romish Canons from Drelincourt in his PROTESTANTS Triumph Discourse 2. from page 39. to page 52. As also of sundry of your ritualls such as the Procession of the Sacrament the feast of the Sacrament your Jubilees the Canonizing of Saints nay of your present Romish Missal and how lately it was received both in the Gallican and Spanish Churches c. Is it safe to venture the eternall Salvation of Soules upon a Religion so Novel both in its Articles of Faith and Rituals You have one Trifle more which I cannot let slip Because I have required you to prove the Assumptiō of that goodly Syllogism which ye proposed in your first Paper wherein you said That the PROTESTANT Religion had no grounds to prove its conformity with the sense of Scripture and to this day you have been able to bring nothing in Confirmation of it Now therefore when Arguments fail you you would try if you could bring your self off or creat Odium to your Adversary with a popular but reallie impertinent Example You say That I have behaved my self as if one should come as sent from the Council to require the Provest of Aberdene to apprehend a person suspect of Disloyaltie but when the Provest did demand his commission he should answere that he was not bound to show his Commission but his Commission was sufficiently proven by this that there could not be produced reasons to show that he had no Commission Is this the Scholastick method which you call for in stead of Arguments to substitute popular declamatorie Scenick examples which by a person of any Acuteness may be transformed into a thousand various shapes But seeing you will have the matter managed by Examples I must Examplisie time-about Suppose therefore First that a man were reallie Commissionated by the Secret Council to require the Magistrats of such a City to apprehend a disloyal person and for this effect did produce his Commission but the Magistrates did cavil at the sense of the Commission how luculent soever in it self alleaging that they could doe nothing upon that Commission untill the sense of it were cleared and that the sense of it could not be cleared without an infallible Expounder Would not the Secret Council have just cause to be moved with indignation against these Magistrates who had so ludified their Order And is not this the very case betwixt us and you Doe not PROTESTANTS still produce the Tables wherein the Ground of our Faith is contained Viz the Holy Scriptures Doe not we tell you if all our Religion be not found luculently there we shall disclaime it Is not this your verie Cavil that the Sense of Scripture is so obscure that without an Infallible Bropounder it cannot be understood Have you not cause then to feare the indignation of the Almighty who doe thus reproach the Scriptures of GOD and goe about to subvert the faith of his people suspending it till they get Propounders of whose Infallibility they must have an Antecedent and previous assurance whereas there are none such now on Earth The Fallibity of your Popes and Councils we did before demonstrat and you like a mute Advocat had not a word to mutter for them But Secondly in the case which you propose of a man pretending a Commission and having none and requiring the Magistrats to prove that he had none therefore the Rogue is justly blameable because he refuseth to prove the Affirmative which was incumbent to him and requires the Magistrats to prove the Negative But betwixt you and us the case is quite contrary For though you framed the Assumption of your first Syllogisme in Negative Termes yet upon the matter you refused to prove the Affirmative and required us to prove the Negative For what is it for us to prove the Truth of our Religion in points controverted betwixt you and us but to prove that there i◠no Purgatorie no Transubstantiation no Proper sacrifice in the Masse that your Pope hath no supreamacie over the Catholick Church that there Are not seven Sacraments that Saincts are not to be invocated nor Images adored c. All which are meet Negatives and so are the most of the points controverted betwixt us and you Now suppose that there were no Revelation from Heaven for Purgatorie Transubstantiation the Sacrifice of the Masse the Popes supreamacie c. Will not you confess in that Case that it were not duety to believe any of them and that then it were a sufficient Argument against them there is no Divine revelation produceable for these things therefore they are not to be believed and if any would obtrude the belief of them upon others that he were bound to produce a Divine revelation for them Now we PROTESTANTS mantaine De facto this to be the Case I would therefore demand of any rational man if there be a possibility to confute us but by produceing a Ground or Divine revelation for these things Are not you then guilty of the same Absurditie with the Knave in your own Example who refuse to prove the Affirmative and require us to prove the Negative But yet further
PAPISMUS LUCIFUGUS OR A faithfull Copie of the Papers exchanged betwixt Mr. IOHN MENZEIS Professor of DIVINITY in the Marischal-Colledge of ABERDENE and Mr. Francis Dempster Iesuit otherwise Sirnamed Rin or Logan WHEREIN The Iesuit declines to have the truth of Religion examined either by Scripture or Antiquity though frequently appealed thereunto AS ALSO Sundry of the chief Points of the Popish Religion are demonstrated to be repugnant both to Scripture and Antiquity yea to the Ancient Romish-Church TO ALL WHICH Is premised in the Dedication a true Narration of a verball Conference with the same Iesuit Tit. 1.10.11 There are many unruly and vain Talkers and Deceivers Whos 's mouths must be stopped who subvert whole houses teaching things which they ought not for filthy Lucres sake Aug. lib. 2. de Bapt. con Don. cap. 6. Non afferamus stateras delosas ubi appendamus quod volumus quomodo volumus pro arbitriâ— nostro dicentes hoc grave hoc leve est Sed afferamus divinaâ—â— stateram de Scripturis sanctis tanquam de the sauris Dominicis in illa quid sit gravius appendamus Immo â—on appendamus sed a Domino appensa recognoscamus ABERDENE Printed by IOHN FORBES Younger Printer to the TOVVN Anno Dom. M.DC.LXVIII BON ACCORD Insignia Vrbis abredoniae Unto the Right Honorable M R. ROBERT PATRIE of PORTLETHEN Lord Provest Bailies ALEXAND R. ALEXANDER IOHN SCOT IOHN DUNCAN IOHN SMITH ANDREW SKENE Dean of Gild GILBERT BLACK Treasurer And to the rest of the honorable COUNCILL of ABERDENE RIGHT HONORABLE It was not any supposed Worth in these Papers which moved me to consent to the publishing of them But because our Romish Adversaries had the confidence openly to triumph in City and Country though I hope without ground as if their Champion Master Dempster had left not me only which had been no great matter but also the Religion of PROTESTANTS at a great losse and disadvantage Who Who am I the meanest of the thousands of ISRAEL that any infirmities of mine whether supposed or reall should be charged on so GLORIOUS a CAUSE which is the invincible Truth of the Most High GOD may bid a defyance to all the Goliahs and Hoasts of Romish Philistins Hath not the Reformed Religion stood as an impregnable Rock against all the assaults both of Speculative and Pragmatick heads and bloody hands which have been kept at worke these many years in opposition thereto by the See of Rome Who then that is but one remove from madnesse can imagine that the insignificant scufle of this Iesuit should endanger it I freely confesse what I have said or can say is infinitly below the dignity of the CAUSE which I mantaine yea and exceedingly short of what eminent Lights in the Reformed Churches have said and can further say in behalfe of our Religion Must it not argue either height of prejudice or pitifull shallowness to impute whatsoever deficiencies of such an one as Me to Religion it self Wherefore Reverend Learned Pious Iudicious Persons with whome I did communicate all these Papers when they were exchanged have judged it sit that all should be faithfully published that the World might have a new demonstration on how small grounds to say no worse our clamorous Romanists can triumph as if they were more then conquerours Well may that saying of Austin in Psalm 32. Be accommodated to them Non remanet iis nisi sola infirmitas animositatis quae tanto est languidior quanto se majores vires habere aestimat There only support is the infirmity of an high or overweening stomach which is so much the more feeble as it overvalueth its own strength It hath been the usuall artifice of Hereticks when they could not conquer Truth by their captious argueings to load the assertors thereof with reproaches Austin complained of such dealing both from Pascentius a champion of the Arrians tom 2. Epist. 174. As also from the Donatists tom 7. in Epist ad Donatist post collat What wonder then though Romanists who are so Hereticall in their Doctrines be Acted by the same Calumniating Genius Learned Doctor Prideaux lect 9. de visib Eccles § 11. Hath been at the paines to present his Reader with a multitude of instances of most impudent Calumnies wherewith Romanists have aspersed faithfull witnesses of truth I will not rake in that dung-hil Only let me remember you that Romish practises of this nature were long agoe so known to the World that learned Doctor Featly before that he and Doctor Francis Whyte engaged in their disput with Fisher and Sweet two Iesuits could easily presage and foretell to the pitcher of the field that whatever were the issue of that combat and at whatever disadvantage the Iesuits should be left yet he and his Colegue Doctor Whyte should be conquered in effigie and led in triumph in many a Pageant at Doway Bruxels Rhemes and Rome as afterwards fell out Yea so impudent were the Romanists that Doctor Weston told at Sainct Omers to a Protestant Lord who had been present at the disput viz. to the Earle of Warwick that the two Iesuits had acquitted themselves so admirably well and with so much advantage to the Romish interest that two Earles and an hundreth Auditors were gained to the Church of Rome and of these Earles this noble Lord to whom the Doctor spake was affirmed to be one who could not but smyle as these ludibrious Legends For the Earle well knew there were not near an hunder persons present at the Conference nor one PROTESTANT staggered thereby Yea the person for whose satisfaction that conference was principally intended though before he had his own doubts yet after the debate professed that he was fully resolved as to the Reformed Religion All this is testified by judicious Doctor Featly in the Relation of that Conference Should it then seem strange to any that the tristing debate wherein I have been lately engaged with this Iesuit hath been so grosly misrepresented by men of these principles Who could have expected any thing else Doe men gather grapes of Thorns or Figs of Thistles Yet as to my own particular interest I could have borne all their reproaches remembring that of the Ancient Quisquis volens detrahit famae meae nolens addit mercedi meae But judicious Lovers of Truth finding Religion it self to be thrust at through my sides laid bonds upon me to give the World a faithfull account of that whole transaction though otherwise I could willingly have destined these poor Papers so farre as they concerned me to perpetuall silence Since therefore Very Honorable this scufle with Mr. Dempster fell out under the intuition of your Authority I judged it incumbent to me to present you with this brief ensuing account thereof As you in your Civil Capacity and we your Ministers in our Ecclesiastick Lyne travelled to suppresse Error and Vngodlynesse in this CITY We had frequent opportunity to deal with Persons of a Popish perswasion When we
is to keep up a stated Schisine in Christendom and to ruin by Fraud or Force all who cannot comply with their mischievous Projects seriously to consider whether there be not many things in the present Popish Religion greatly obstructive to the Peace and Vnity of the Catholick Church I shall but hint at a few things As first the pretended Infallibility of the Romish Church whether Pope or Council or both Will the Church of Rome admit of Reformation so long as she affirmes her self to be beyond possibilitie of erring Secondly The Vniversal Supremacy acclaimed by the Pope over the Catholick Church Doth not this oblige Romanists to keep up a Schisme from all these Churches which cannot enslave themselves to this Vsurped power Thirdly The manifold Idolatry of the Romish Religion Masse-Worship Image-Worship Sainct-Worship Angel-Worship Crosse-Worship Relict-Worship Know not judicious Romanists that their Idolatry is not only offensive to many Christian Churches but also impeditive of the conversion of Iewes and Infidels Fourthly The Injuriousnesse of the Romish Religion to Our LORD JESUS CHRIST the only MEDIATOR betwixt GOD and Man by setting up a daylie propitiatory facrifice for the sins of the Living and Dead in the Masse by asserting that men must satisfie for a lesser kinde of sinnes which they call venial either in this Lyfe or in Purgatorie yea and for the temporal punishment due to mortal sinnes by affirming that men doe merit Heaven ex condigno and that we must be justified by inherent Righteousnesse Doe not Romanists in persuance of these and such like tenets Anathematiz many christian Churches who cannot concurre with them in such like Blasphemyes against our Blessed SAVIOUR Fifthly The going about publick worship in the Latine tongue which is not now the Vulgar language of any Nation of the World Doth not the Apostle condemne the performing of publick worship in an unknown tongue without an interpreter 1. Cor. 14. so clearly that your great Cardinal Cajetan commenting on the place sayeth Ex hac Pauli doctrina habetur quod melius ad aedificationem Ecclesiae est orationes publicas quae audiente populo dicuntur dici lingua communi clericis populo quam dici latine Sixthly Are not the reproaches horrid which Romanists throw upon the Holy Scriptures of GOD in their debates concerning the Authority Perspicuity Perfection Necessity and Interpretation of the Scriptures Nay is not this one of the first Query's wherewith Missionary Iesuits doe assault our people how doe you know the Scriptures to be the Word of GOD As if they would rather have people turne Scepticks or Atheists then remaine PROTESTANTS Have not many Romanists had many convictions in their consciences that there are corruptions in the Church of Rome calling aloud for Reformation in so-much that there have been many meetings at Rome of their Cardinals and Bishops in order to this But well did Luther as Sleidan reports lib. 12. ad Annum 1537. compare these Assemblyes to a company of Foxes comeing to sweep a room full of dust with their tailes And in stead of sweeping out the dust they sweept it all about the house and made a great smoke for a while but when they were gone the dust fell down againe How long shall Romanists through Pride prejudice faction and interest stifle these convictions Yet if any Romanist will needs prosecute this debate I cannot be so base being honoured to stand for so GLORIOUS a CAUSE as to fear what any Mortal can say I know there are Learned Romanists who can say much more for their ill cause then Mr. Dempster hath done They want neither Learning nor Policy to support their Mystery of iniquity So that as Sir Edwin Sands hath judiciously observed in his Speculum Europae page 24. were it not for the Natural weakenes of untruth and Dishonesty which being rotten at the heart doeth abate the force of what ever is founded thereon there outward means were sufficient to subdue a whole World But it concerns Romanists to notice the smart admonition which Austine gave to a Learned Heathen Ornari a te quaerit Diabolus How will these men render an account of their Talents one day who emprove them to promot the Devils interest I should be a very great stranger to my self if I were not conscious to my own weakenesse Yet Truth hath such advantage over Errour that it doth not need Advocats of the greatest Learning or profoundest Judgement Let me only therefore leave these Advertisements to him who will be at the paines to make a Reply whether Mr. Dempster who as I heare is alive againe or any other First that he hath not only the tenth and last paper to answere but also to supply the paralipomena or emissions of all his former papers so in truth he hath the whole Ten to examine 2. It will not be very handsome to catch at broken shreds here or there But if he would doe his worke throughly he must discusse all and chiefly that which is most material Is there any thing of moment in Mr. Dempsters papers which I have not revised 3. I desire that he would not object to me the ordinarie cavils of Romanists unlesse he will be at the paines to examine what is Replyed thereto by our Divines Else he will constraine me either to neglect what he sayes or to remit him to the Authours who have canvased these Objections before or at most to transcribe old Answeres given to these old objections which cannot but be allowable in me who am the Defendant This I the rather have mentioned because it is observed that late Romish Pamphleters doe often resume old Objections without mentioning the Answeres made thereto by our Divines as if they were New Arguments and hitherto unheard of Thus they abuse many of the Vulgar who are not versed in great volumes especially in the Latine tongue where all these Sophisms are solidly confuted 4. He may be pleased to owne what he writes by putting his Name thereto I cannot be obliged to fight any longer cum Larvis with Specters who have not the confidence to owne what they write 5. And lastly I hope it would not be amisse that Personal criminations were laid aside Mr. Dempster extorted more Recriminations from me then I had pleasure in but if I meet with a Civil Adversary I hope he shall have no cause to complaine of Vncivility from me But if he will needs thrust more at me then at the CAVSE I can rejoyce with Hierom to be railed upon by Hereticks and with Job chap. 31. verse 36. Take these invectives on my shoulder and bind them to me as a Crown It was an Heroick word of Luther Indies magis mihi placeo superbus fio quod video nomen pessimū mihi crescere He gloryed in it that he was evil spoken of for a good cause If these rational proposals be neglected I will not contend in that Case for the last word Patience and Silence wil I hope sufficiently
conformitie to the will of GOD revealed in the Scriptures and this conformitie hath a sufficient intrinseck objective evidence in it self to any who have a well disposed understanding to collate and compare these two together to observe the exact correspondence betwixt the one and the other This likewise may be illustrated by your own example of Honestie and Knaverie An Honest-man being one whose actions are squared according to the Law what ever a Knave may pretend yet when both are compared to the Law the honest-Mans conversation is found to be that which the Law enjoineth not so the Knaves So that this honestie which is the conformitie of his actions to the Law hath an intrinseck objective evidence to demonstrat it self to any discerning Person who can compare the mans actions with the Law So it is in the present case Yet besides this intrinseck objective evidence which is in true Religion I doe not deny but there are many externall and accessorie Grounds which stronglie perswade its credibilitie Having thus paved my way I come to examine your Syllogisme which runes thus That Religion cannot be a true Religion which hath no peculiar ground or principle to prove that it is a true Religion and conforme to the true sense of the letter of the word of GOD. But the PROTESTANT Religion hath no peculiar ground or principle to prove that it is a true Religion and conforme to the true sense of the letter of the word of GOD. Ergo it cannot be a true Religion Answere 1. I might here first friendly advise you to take better heed hereafter to the forme of your Syllogismes For both your Premisses are Negative and ye know the Logick rule sayeth ex ntraque premissa negativa nihil sequitur But I shall endeavour to help this by improving your medium in a better forme and I hope also to better purpose against your self and your Romanists thus The true Religion hath a peculiar ground and principle to prove that it is a true Religion and conforme to the true sense of the letter of the word of GOD. But the Popish religion hath no peculiar ground and principle to prove that it is a true religion and conforme to the true sense of the letter of the word of GOD. Ergo the Popish Religion is not the true Religion Hade ye intended to satisfie the conscience of any Persone you would have held forth these peculiar grounds and characters of a true Religion which is conforme to the true sense of the letter of the word of God and ye would at least have endeavoured to demonstrate that thes did exactly quadrat with your Romish Religion and not at all with the Religion of PROTESTANTS But as to this there is nothing but deep silence in your paper Before you make good your retreat from this Argument as thus inverted against your self ye may perhaps find that ye are taken in the ginne which ye designed for others Ans 2 But Secondly I wold try you with another Retersion thus If the true Religion have grounds and principles to prove its conformitie to the true sense of the letter of the Word then no article of Faith and Religion can be founded upon an unwritten Tradition But the first is true Ergo c. The Minor is clear from the Major of your Syllogisme The consequence of my Major is no lesse clear For it is impossible that an article founded meerly upon an unwritten Tradition should prove its conformitie with the letter of the written word of God else it should be written and not written Nor can ye handsomely resile by saying you did thus only argue ad hominem against PROTESTANTS For this your Syllogisme you deduce from your foure premised propositions which ye suppose ought to be agreed to by all Parties Now what thankes you are to expect for this manner of arguing from your late Pamphleters who doe so highly magnifie your unwritten Traditions ye your self may judge Ans 3. But Thirdly leaving Retorsions I Answer directly denying the Assumption viz. that the PROTESTANT Religion hath no peculiar ground or principle to prove that it is a true Religion and conforme to the true sense of the letter of the word of GOD. Nay surely it hath that intrinseck objective evidence in its conformitie with the Scripturs to demonstrate it to be the true Religion of which I was speaking a little before which neither Poperie nor any other false Religion either hath or can have But now it lyes on you as the Opponent to prove your Assumption It seemed strange to me that this Proposition whereon the whole stresse of the Controversie didly was so nakedlie proposed by you without any proofe Onely it would appear because it is a Negative you would lay over upon me to prove the contrarie Are ye so soon wearie of the Opponents office who were so eager to have it Find you the burthen of impugning the Religion of Protestants so heavie that so soone ye shrink under it Are there no Negative Propositions proved in the Schools Doth not Philosophie teach us more Moods and Formes of Negative Syllogismes then of affirmatives Shall there be no way to oppugne an affirmative position but by turning the Respondent to an Opponent Yea let me put you in minde that though your assumption and conclusion be expressed Negativly yet upon the matter we doe rather mantaine the Negative and you the affirmative Which I thus make out If any consider our Religion and yours it will be found that in most of our Positives ye and we are agreed As that there is a GOD three Persons that Christ is both GOD and man c. But the difference is mostly in our Negatives As for instance Ye affirme the necessitie of a visible infallible judge of controversies we deny Ye affirme the necessitie of subjection to the Pope of Rome as head of the Catholick-Church we deny Ye affirme that there is a propper propitiatory sacrifice in the Masse we deny Ye affirme that the Apocrypha books are Canonick Scriptures we deny Ye affirme that Saincts are to be invocated that Crosses Images and your Sacramentall Hosty are to be adored we deny Ye affirme a Purgatorie we deny c. In all these and such as these we mantaine the Negative and ye the Affirmative yea and these are your Superadditions unto Scripture truths And consequently when it is demanded whether that which we or ye mantaine in these particulars be agreeable to the sense of the Scriptures The meaning is whether doth the Scripture hold these things out or not Ye affirme and we deny Therefore according to the saying that Affirmanti incumbit probatio It lyes upon you to find out the exact measures of the true Religion and the peculiar Grounds which doe evidence its conformitie to the true sense of the letter of the word of GOD and also to demonstrate that these Grounds cannot agree to the Religion of PROTESTANTS Bellarmin Gretser Valentia and others of
the scop of your first Paper and Syllogisme was to hold out That the true Religion hath grounds to prove it self to be conformâ— to the true sense of the letter of the word of GOD. But this were impossible if all Religion and consequently what ever is necessarie to Salvation were not contained in the writen Word of God And therefor in my answere to your First Paper I concluded from that Syllogisme that you had overturned your Vnwriten traditions So that now you are not in Bonâ fide to object against the Perfection of Scriptures as containing all things necessary to Salvation without contradicting your self But this hath been a fatalitie which hath attended you throughout all this debate Secondly this your demand Of drawing up a Lift and Catalogue of necessaries is an old cavill of your Romanists which our Divines have often canvased and therefore â—s I told you that you would be served when you renewed old Refuâ—ed Cavills Itemit you to see what hath been said to this purpose By Master Chillingwerth in his Defence of Petter part 1. capp 3.4 And by Stilling-sleet In his Vindication of the Bishop of Canterbury against T. C. part 1. cap. 4. And Crakantliorp in his ' Defens Ecclesia Anglicana cap. 47. Thirdly you falslie affirme that the Scripture doth pur no distinction betwixt divine truthes of absolute necessitie to Salvation and others the beleef whereof is not so indispensably necessarie Sayeth not the Scriptore Heb. 11.6 He that cometh unto GOD must beleeve 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that he is and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him Is the like Character of necessitie put upon everie truth Is there I pray as great necssiâ—tie to beleeve that Paul left a Clok at Treat 2. Tim. 4.13 As to beleeve there is a GOD Know you not that of Austin lib. 1. Contra Iulianum cap. 6. Alia sunt in quibus inter se aliquande etiam doctissimi atê™ optimi regulae Catholicae defensores salva fidei compage non consonant alius alio de una re melius aliquid dicit verius hoc autens unde nunc agimus ad ipsa pertinet sidei fundamenta Where the Father acknowledges there are some Foundation truths in Christianitie absolutly necessarie and others not so You may see this larglie proven by Master Baxter in his Key for Catholiks part 1. cap. 16. And Crakanthorp loco citato no to mention others Fourthly I absolutlie denie that it was incumbent to me at this time to draw up a Lift of truths simply necessarie to Salvation and it was a tergiversing Shift in you to demand it that so you might keep off the eximination of that which is mainlie in controversie betwixt us For though I with reformed Divines doe affirme that all things necessarie to Salvation are contained in Scripture Yet neither they nor I affirme that it is necessary to Salvation to have a precise Catalogue of things necessarie containing neither more not lesse Did I pray you Chryfostome draw up a Catalogue of necessaries when he said Hom. 3. In epist 2. Ad Thess That all things necessarie are clear and manifest in the Scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Augustin when he said Lib. 2. De doct Christ cap. 9. that In â—is quae aperte posita sunt in these things which are plainly laid down in the Scripturs Inveniuntur amnia are found all which belong to faith or maners Or Tertullian when he said Scripturae plenitudinem adero Cannot this generall be proven that all things necessarie are contained in the Scriptures unlesse a precise Catalogue be drawne Is there no way to prove an Universall conclusion but by an induction and enumeration of all particulars Cannot I conclude that all the dead shall rise at the last day unlesse I can draw up a list of all the race of Mankind Or that all the Reprobat shall be eternally shut up in hell unlesse I can give you a catalogue and definit number of that generation of GODS wrath Can I not conclude that all Jesuits are devoted Slaves to the Pope unlesse I can give a catalogue and a definit number of these locusts Is not the generall which we affirme abundantly proven by these Scriptures in which the sufficiencie of the Scripture to bring men to Salvation is held forth As 2. Tim. 3.15.16.17 John 20.31 Gal. 1.8.9 c. In so much that Tertullian was bold to say Contra Hermogenens cap. 22. Doceat Hermogenes Scriptures esse si non est Scriptum timeat illud vae adjicientibus ant detrahentibus destinatum Yea what if it should be added that the explicite beleef of more truths may be necessarie to the Salvation of one then of another Said nor the Lord Christ Luke 12.48 Unto whome much is given much shall be required Whereupon a great Divine spared not to say That to call for a precise catalogue of necessarie truths is as unreasonable as if one should desire us to make a coat to fit the Moon in all her Changes or a garment to fit all statures or a dyall to serve all Meridians or to designe particularly what provision may serve aâ— Army for a year whereas there may be an Arâ—â—ie of a thousand and an Army of an hundreth thousand whose provision therefore cannot be alike But what ever be of this let it suffice to have given you this generall character of necessarie truths that no truth of Religion is further to be accounted necessary then Scripture puts a character of necessity upon it And here by the way I might let you see what a fool you wer in medling with my example Of trying pieces of gold severally by the Tonchstone For in the present case it can import no more but that before any truth be concluded necessarie it must first be found that the Scriptures hath put a character of necessity upon it and consequently all necessarie truths must be contained in Scripture Quod erat demonstrandum You would therefore not medle with my weapons lest they cut your hands But Fifthly and lastly I adde that you Romanists are as much concerned to draw up a list and catalogue of necessaries as we and I am sure in so doing you shall find greater difficulty especially if with your late Champions you say that all that and onely that is necessarie which your Church hath defined For first can ye agree among your selves to tell me what you mean by the Church Or secondly can you enumerat a precise catalogue of all that the Church hath defined Or how can you ascertaine any of the true sense of these Definitions Or Thirdly can you show me who hath impowered the Church since the dayes of the Apostles to put a Character of necessity to Salvation upon a truth which had it not before And Fourthly did not I from this demonstrate your Religion to be a false Religion because it differs in its essentials and in these things which to you are necessary to
is the genuine sense of Scripture but onely the authority of the speaker Surely then nothing spoken by you or your fellow Jesuits and Friers can be received as a Divine truth for you pretend no Infallibility Nay your fallacies are become so notorious to the World that it hath past into a proverb A Fryar a liar But perhaps you meane your Popes or Councils by your Propounders Yet besides that your people doe not hear them immediatly and their sentences may be vitiated in the conveyances by the hands of fallible persons besides this I say must not your Popes and Councils have a reason that moved them to own rather this sense of Scripture then the opposite Or else they must be perfect Enthusiasts If they have a reasone why may not the same reasone that moved them move the people also when it is sufficiently proposed to them Let the indifferent Reader now observe to what fluctuating uncertaintes you expose your hearers wheÌ„ you say that their faith must be resolved upon the authority of the Speaker whether you meane Pope or Council or both for I suppose you cannot determinatly tell which of the three Now how many things are here to be cleared before the faith of the poor people can be at a stand As First that these whome you call Popes are true Popes and successours to Peter and your Councils true and legitimat General Councils Secondly that these Popes and Councils have an Infallible authority Thirdly That this which you give out is the true and genuine sense of the Popes or Councils All which while the World stands you will never be able solidly to prove And I doe appeale you if you can to doe it But I must here reveal another prodigious Mysterie of your Romanists Namely that what ever is proposed not onely by your Popes and Councils but also by your inferiour Clergie-Men though by your own Confession Fallible yet the poor People who cannot examine by themselves the truth or falshood of what is proposed ought not onely to beleeve upon the authority of the said Fallible Clergie-Men but also Doe merit by beleeving though the thing beleeved be Erronious and Heretical Hear this from your Great Casuist Cardinal Talet Lib. 4. De Instruct. Saterd cap. 3. Si rusticus sayeth he circa articulos credat suo Episcopo proponenti aliquod dogma haereticum meretur in credendo lieet sit error quia tenetur credere donce si constet esse contra Ecclesiam I will english it If a country man sayeth he beleeve his Bishop propounding some heretical doctrine about the articles he meriteth by beleeving though it be an error because he is bound to beleeve until it manifestly appeare that it is against the Church What a damnable Religion must this be according to which men merit Heaven by beleeving lies If this doctrine of Cardinal Tolet be true that people are bound to beleeve your Fallible Clergie-Men even speaking lies and may Merit thereby How dare you conclude that our Faith to unquestionable Divine truths is no Supernatural faith because our Preachers doe not arrogat an Infallibility to themselves Is it better for a Romanist to beleeve a lie then for a PROTESTANT to beleeve a Divine truth Think you still to abuse the World with such prodigious impostures As for your ludicrous Example of an Old Wife We bless God there are old Wiwes young Boyes and Girles amongst us who could instruct all old deceiver like you in the true grounds of ReligioÌ„ Did not Priscilla a poor Wife instruct Apolles in the mysteries of Christianity of whose Infallibility Apollos had no previous assurance Yet from the Scripture she convinced him Act. 18.26 So that from this your Example though brought in by you only as a foolish jeer all that you have said may be redargued If there may be a ground to assent to divine truths proposed by a Poor Wife such as Priscilla of whose Infallibility there is no previous assurance then it is a falshood which you affirme that the Faith of divine truths must only be founded upoÌ„ the Authority of the Speaker But the first appears to be true from the Case of Priscilla and Apolles A poor Priscilla may hold forth convincing and luculent grounds of what she asserts from the Scripture when a Priest A Iesuit a Cardinal a Pope an Annas or Cajaphas may obtrude on the consciences of others erronioâ—s and groundles fancyes To this purpose I might produce many testimonies from your own most famous Writers as of Gerson Panermitan c. But I shall at the time content my self with one from Ioannes Picus Mirandulanus De Ordine credendi Theor 16. Which though I have at the second hand the author not being by me yet have I it from so many good Writers that I doubt not of the truth of it Quin imo sayeth he simplici potius rustice infanti anicula quam Pontifiti Maxime mille Episcopis credenduÌ„ si contra Evangetium isti illi pro Erangelio verba facereut I Have been more copious in this Reply then your Scurvy Paper did deserve yet if in this I have superogated it is without the least tincture of Poperie You but play the fool in upbraiding me with boasting or gloriation upon the account of the frequent losses which you are left at For I reckon it no point of honour either to deale with or to vanquish such an insignificant persons as hitherto you have discovered your self by your Papers I have rather so far endeavoured to deny my self as to be at the paines to give a check to an arrogant but an emptie Caviller against the truth But because Cepious Answers doe oppresse your dry and steril braine therefore I have subjoined a Succinct answere confuting all your Seven Papers in two words And if you find not your self comperent to answere this Long Paper in all the particulars thereof without your usual Tergiversations you may deale with this Succinct One. In the meane time let this suffice Aberdene October 31. 1666. Iohn Menzeis POSTSCRIPT A Short Answere in two words to all Master Dempster the Iesuit alias Rind or Logan his seven Papers Nego Minorem Or Nego Conclusionem Aberdene October 31. 1666. Iohn Menzeis The Reason why the returne of this Paper hath been so long delayed it because how soone I read your Seventh Paper I found that it ranne upon the old trifling straine and therefore I threw it by me for sundry weeks For it was likesome to me to be still examining your Titivilitia and scurvie Tautologies Now therefore either come to the point and answere Categeries without your tergiversations or else get you gone for ever The Jesuits eight Paper Reply to a seventh Paper of Mr. IOHN MENZEIS wherein is showen that the pretended conformity of Protestant Religion with Scripture is a meer imaginary and groundles conformitie 6. November 1666. This Paper was not delivered to Master IOHN MENZEIS untill November 9. 1666. YOUR Seventh Paper
that your Romish Church like an old Whoore doth still wax worse and worse How often have our Divines demonstrated that your Romish Church is much more corrupt and grosse in her Tenets since the Council of Trent then before Doe not we know how often you set at nought Old Doctors when they agree not with the principles of your Present Papal faction Hence your Jesuit Escobar Tom. 1. theol moral in praeloq cap. 2. num 8. frequenter accidit sayeth he ut quae opinio paucis ab hinc annis in â—su non erat mode communi consensu recipiatur è contra Yea though you doe vainly brage of your Unity how few points of controversie are there betwixt you and us wherein you are not sub-divyded amongst your selves You may find this learnedly made out by Doctor Morton in his Appeale for PROTESTANTS out of the confession of Roman Doctors I will give you but one Instance at the present Your Papal indulgences are one of your now received Romish articles and yet some of your Ancient Doctors mantained them to be but Pias fraudes meere impostures So our of your Aquinas testifyeth Gregorie de Valentia lib. de indulg cap. 2. It may be Objected secondly That your Jesuit Escobar hath disputed may safely goe away he is not bound to doe it but may without sinne kill the man who intends to strick him though but lightly or if the Priest be consulted by another that over-reaches in his passion he may flatter him declaring with the same Tolet. Lib. 4. cap. â—3 num 4. That if a man be in a great passion so transported that he considers not what he sayes if in that case he doth blaspheme his blasphemie is not mortal sinne So may the Priest sooth them who commit horrid crimes in their drunkenness with the foresaid Cardiual Tolet. lib. 5. cap. 10. num 3. That if a man be beastly drunk and then commit fornieation that formeation is not sinne Yea he may with the same Cardinal lib. 5. cap. 13. num 2. Declare that if a man desires carnal pollution that he may evite carnal temptations or for his health it were no sinne Time would fail me in reckoning out such Probable nay Damnable Doctrines of your Casuists according to which your Confessors can determine exceeding many cases sutable to the inclination of the party with whome they have to doe either according to their own opinion or according to the opinion of some other Grave Doctor And what ever is delivered according to a probable opinion may be warrantably practised though there be another more probable Quaelibet opinio probabilis tutam reddit conseâ—entiam in operando sayeth your Escobar Tom. 1. Theol. Moral lib. 2. Sect. 1 cap. 2. num 22. Now shall your Casuists be permitted to introduce such unheard of impieties into the World by the pretended authoritie of Out grave Doctor without check or controll Shall their Problematick decisions warrand such shavelings as you to encourage lewd persons to murther their Neighbour blaspheme GOD violat womens chastity and cut off Princes for to that purpose also they have many Problematick decisions and when we oppose these impieties shall we be rated as ridiculous Railers Doth your Church of Rome thinke to wash her hands in innocency as if she were not guilty of these impious decisions because they are not ratified by the decree of a General Council What I pray you bath she decreed against them Your Religion at least is such with which all these impieties are wel consistent There is nothing in your Religion repugnant to them But besides are not these Casuistick tractats writen by your gravest Doctors in the face of the Sun under the Popes nose Is not this pernicious doctrine of Probables publickly avouched and known among you Yea are not these bookes approven by your authorised Licencers who are intrusted to looke Ne fides Ecclesiae detrimenti aliquid patiatur Your Church therefore will never be able to vindicat her self either before GOD or rational Men from being an abettor of these impieties Nay this leaves an undenyable conviction upon the consciences of your own authors in so much that Dominicus a Soto cited by Doctor Taylor in his Dissuaesive cap. 2. sect 1. I am so fat from stealing as often times doe your Jesuits that I ingenuously tell you when I have not a booke by me sayeth Non ilico ut â—â—mo se reum sentit culpae paenitentiae lege paenitere constringitur Haec profecto conclusie more usu Ecclesiae satis videtur constabilita Where he charges your Church with this Prophans doctrinâ— which hardens men in impenitencie But of this enough for the time After your impertinent and calumnious Digression concerning the first occasion of our Debate and your Problematick points for my worke in all these eight Papers hath been to follow a roving Vagrant from one impertinencie to another you claver to as little purpose concerning the sense of holy Scripture Before say you that our Religion be proven from Scripture it must be first proven that we PROTESTANTS have the true sense of Scripture But First Ought you not remember that in this writen debate you doe sustaine the part of the Opponent might it not therefore be better retorred upon you thus Before you prove that the PROTESTANTS have not the True Religion you ought first to prove that they have not the true sense of Scripture And may it not be a convinceing argument Ad Hominem against you that PROTESTANTS have the true sense of Scripture and consequently the True Religion seeing in all these Eight Papers you who appeared as the Romish Champion to disprove the Religion of PROTESTANTS have not been able to produce one Medium to prove the falshood of their Religion or of their sense of holy Scripture But it seems that you would willingly forget that you are the Opponent I wonder nothing that you who turne the weighty points of the Law to Problems should make a Probleme of this matter of fact how evident so ever it be So miserably have you discharged the Opponents office that you may truely be ashamed to owne it But SecoÌ„dly Could I make fairer proffers to you then I have done Have I not offered to disput whether PROTESTANTS have the True Religion and the true sense of Scripture both by Intrinsick Arguments from the Series of the context of Scripture from parallel places and the analogie of faith as also by a more Extrinsick test namely the conformity of Religion with the faith of the most Ancient Christian Church But as a perfect Coward who distrusted your cause you durst adventure on neither of these Nay all your cavils which once you started against both these grounds such as a catalogue of necessaries rules of interpretation of Scripture c. I have so convinceingly confuted that you have not dated once to mention them againe in this your last Paper Yea Thirdly Flave I not gone a further length and
though I was onely the Defendant yet being out-wearied by your Cowardlynesse Have I not demonstrated that in sundrie chief points of controversie such as the Perspicuity and perfection of Scripture the fallibility of Popes and Councils and in the matter of transubstantiation that the PROTESTANTS had the right and true sense of Scripture and that you Romanssts were in the trespasse But you as a Catholick Doctor have one Catholicon by which you coufute all that your Adversarie objects namely by calling it a Digression for with that Reply you have satisfied your self throughout all your Papers Onely as to the last Specimen which I gave you concerning Transubstantiation you think you come off with honour by saying That it savours of what I taught my Scholars this last year Are not you a brave Champion indeed who are as afraid of an Argument that hath beene handled in the Schools as you would be of a Crocodile What sport would your men have made had our Whitaker Iunius Chamier and Danaaus declined to examine Bellarmins arguments because he had handled them before in that Colledge where he was Professor But whereas you say That the Argument which I brought against your transubstantiation seems to have beene the summe of all that I taught in the School this last year you shall know that I have not been accustomed to such laziness as to drone whole years like you upon one Syllogisme As in these forementioned particulars I have demonstrated that PROTESTANTS have the true sense of Scripture and not you the same might be showen in all the rest of the points of controversie betwixt you and us and hath beene abundantly done by our Divines But to propose more Arguments to you is but Margaritas porco projicere For it would seeme you dare graple with none of them Fourthly I must advertise you of a Radical error which leades you into many more For you seeme still to suppose that who ever are a true Church must have one general ground from which the truth of all the points of Religion which such a society doe owne may be demonstrated without an examination of particulars And this if I mistake not is your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which leades you into all the rest of your errors And therefore you still wave the examination of particulars and call for such a general ground But in this you show extreame basenesse that you neither prove the necessity of such a Principle nor yet produce that Principle by which your and our Religion is to be examined Only you insist still upon one general false Hypothesis as if it were an undenyable Axiom and a Datum Whereas in very truth a true Church may mantaine the fundamentals of Christianity and yet alas have the Tares of some errors mingled with the Wheat as is largely demonstrated by our Divines in that Question Num Ecclesia possit errare And therfore there is not one General Ground to be expected proving that all the points of Religion mantained by such a society are truth without examining particulars And this may be strongly confirmed Ad Hominem against you For if there were any such Commone Ground it would be the Infallibility of your Propounders but not this as I have proven in my former Papers Nay I have so soundly cudgelled this your Romish principle in my Last that you durst not once mention it in this your Eight Paper How ever if there be any ground which you suppose to prove the truth of Religion as a Test which none can justly decline I appeale you to produce it and I undertake by the helpe of GOD to show that either it is a false ground or else that it agrees to the PROTESTANT Religion Fifthly this Assertion of yours That before we câ—in prove the truth of our Religion from Scripture we ought first to prove that we have the true sense of Scripture had need of a very favourable and benigne interpretation else it is perfect non-sense and a very contradiction For if you meane by our having the true sense of Scripture that our ReligioÌ„ is contained in Scripture as the true sense thereof intended by the holy Ghost then if we must prove that we have the true sense of Scripture before we prove that we have the True Religion we must prove we have the true ReligioÌ„ before we prove that we have the true Religion A noble stick of Romish non-sense Sixthly how easie were it to demonstrate against you Romanists that we PROTESTANTS have the true sense of Scripture seeing in most of all the Positives of our Religion you doe agree with us as that there is a GOD that he is to be adored and that there are three Persons c. Consequently The PROTESTANTS sense of Scripture must be the true sense else your Religion cannot be true You must either acknowledge that vve have the true sense of Scripture or condemne your ovvn Religion The chief controversie that remaines betvvixt you and us is concerning your Supernumerarie Additions as vvhether not onely GOD is to be adored but also Images and Crosses and not onely GOD is to be invocated but also Saincts and Angels c. That is vvhether there be so many more Supernumerarie senses of Scripture besides those vvhich PROTESTANTS mantaine and you Papists dare not deny Whether I say besides these there be other senâ—es of Scripture mantained by you Romanists and denyed by us Ought not you then to prove these your Supernumerarie senses And are not vve sufficiently vvarranted to adhere to the Negative except there be solid grounds for these Superadded sexses vvhich I beleeve neither you nor the vvhole sâ—lb of Jesuits shall be able to shovv though you get a superaddition of all Lucifers Acumen But Seventhly and Lastly Seeing nothing will satisfie you unlesse I though onely the Defendant doe also prove against you the Negative that is that not onely Our sense of Scripture is true but also that these Your superadded and supernumerarie senses are not true therefore to draw you if it be possible our of your lurking holes I will try you by this Argument The sense of Scripture given by your present Romish Church in many things contradicts the sense given by the Ancient Romish Church Ergo the sense put upon Scripture by your Present Romish Church in many things cannot be true The Sequel is cleare because two contradictories cannot be true If therefore you confesse that the Ancient Romish Church had the true sense of Scripture which ye must doe or else destroy the great foundation of your Religion namely the pretended Infallibility of the Church of Rome in all ages then wherein you contradict the Ancient Romish Church therein surely you deviat from the true sense of Scripture It remaines therefore onelie that I confirme the Antecedent which I doe by a few cleare Instances Instance first Your present Romish Church mantains that Images are to be adored Not so the Ancient Romish Church As appeares by the
justifie your proceeding in that Conserence which we had be mouth since you should remit all that thing to the judgement of these illustrious persons that were then present and let them judge whether you did feebly and cowaraly act your part and seeme to compeare there onely to game time Likewise in what school did you learne this civil title wherewith you honor me calling me a Neat-herd rather nor a Disputant that I am a man of â— brâ—sen face and a leaden heart that I am both shamelesse and as â—lesse that I am a Lazie drone c But this proceeds because my Popers which you verballie vilisie calling them Pasquills and not w.r. â—ie to be answered yet you sind they gall you and seeing your self not sâ—â—ffâ—â—ent with reputation to answere to supply this desiciency you seek help from the desusion of Bile that it may subministrat to you such uâ—comely and ume sonable words But let us come to the matter it self In my first Paper and in all others since there was nothing urged upâ—r you but onely that since you 〈◊〉 gerinrailing against Catholick Religion you would produce sâ—â—â—e ground to show the truth of your PROTESTANT Religion and whereby it may be distinguished from a false Religion that be this means you might bath confirme PROTESTANTS in their Religion and â—ime others to embrace the same But hitherto in so many Papers all that can be extorted out of you is that your PROTESTANT Religion is proven to be a true Religion be this Medium because it is grounded upon the word of GOD and conforme to the true serse of the letter of Scripture a reason indeed most solid and convincent if it were true But this pretended conformity of PROTESTANT Religion with Scripture was showen this way to you to be a meer imaginar and groundlesse conformity because as it is impossible a thing to be conforme to a true sense except it be supponed to be a true sense so it is impossible that a thing can be proven to be conforme to a true sense except it be first showen and proven that there is a true sense Ergo you cannot prove your Religion to be true because it is conforme to the true serse of the letter of Scripture except first you bring some pregnant reason whereby the understandings of men may be convinced that you have upon your side the true sense of the letter of Scripture Now since all dependes upon this one point you were desired to apply your self wholly to satisfie this onely and to doe in a substantious and school way laying aside for a whyle your diffuse railing Pulpit way But let us now examine the noble answeres that you give in this your last Paper The first answere is not direct but rather a declining of the difficulty under pretext that it makes a Non-sese to say That before a Religion can be showen or proven to be true it must first be proven that there is the true seate of the letter of Scripture upon their part who professes such a Religion because the true sense of the letter of Scripture and the truth of Religion are one and the self same thing and so â—â— would follow that a thing were proven before it were proven which is a grosse Non-sense But this subtility in the which you seeme to take some complesance and put great force serves onely to discover grosse Ignorance For First he this you show your self altogether ignorant of the nature of Formal Praecisions who have uâ—rtue where they interveen to make asâ—â—fficient distinction betwixt the Medium and the Probleâ—me None you show your self Ignorant of the 〈…〉 be no Objective difference betwixt true Religion and the truths contained under the letter of Scripture But thir two are seperabâ—â— Since all the truths contained under the letter of Scripture may be and yet not componit any Religion at all to wit if there be no obligation imposed upon us to beleeve them or if GOD had not decreed it nor made the faith and beleef of these things necessar to obtaine our Salvation Lastly giving not granting that this your speculation had some soliditie yet it cannot serve to better your cause since all this just as it lyes may be wuh as great reason assumed be a falfe Religion for a scouge and refuge of their ignorance when they are pressed to assigne some ground wherely it may appeare that they have the true sense of the letter of Scripture upon their side or bring some disparity betwixt you and them Your second answere to prove that the true sense of the letter of Scripture is upon your side is Because your sense is conforme to the sense of the Fathers that lived in the first three Centuries But first in this you resile from your foundator Calvin who as you know disclaimes the Fathers in many things taxing them of errors and hitherto your other reformers harped alwayes upon this string that all doctrines even of the Fathers should be examined be the sell Scripture as the onely rule admitting no wise the doctrine of the Fathers themselves but in so far as they did agree with Scripture But now since you invert altogether this order you give occasion to suspect that you are hatching Some new Religion of your own leaving their principles Againe this conformtiy cannot serve your purpose except first you show that the Fathers of the first three Centuries did in the bookes that are now extant teach all points that are necessar to Salvation And this must be proven either be some tectin ony drawne either out of Scripture or out of themselves or else we will have nothing for this but onely your bare saying In the closing of your Paper beside your ordinary braging whereby you doe over value all your own things and undervalue all things brought against you you play the Prophet in Ryme Roma diu titubans variis erroribus acts Corruet mandi desinet esse caput Bo sie yat yis your prophesie be not lyk your Patriarche Lutheris prophesie who when he lept out of the churche did brage that with tuo yeiris Preaching he would abolische and eliminat all Poperie out of the world sa yat efteryir tua yeiris yair wold be no moir in the world nather Pop nor Cardinalis nor Monkis nor Nunnes nor Mase nor Belis c. This Paper was not delivered to Master IOHN MENZEIS many dayes after it was dated but to excuse this the following Postscript was subjoined to the Paper with an other hand POSTSCRIPT Tho this Paper came from the author the day efter it was dated it could not be sent sooner to Master IOHN MENZEIS in regard the Person to whom it was adressed was not in Towne Master IOHN MENZEIS his Answere to the Jesuits ninth Paper Some Reflections upon Master Dempster the Iesuit his ninth Paper wherein he scarce touches what hath been Replyed to him and yet foolishly imagines that he hath confuted the conformity of the Religion
of PROTESTANTS with the holy Scripture DID ever Nature produce such a ludibrious trifling tergiversing Caviller Is not the great controversie betwixt you and me whether the Religion of PROTESTANTS or your Popish Religion be the Christian ReligioÌ„ How then were you not ashamed when I had demonstrated the falshood of many of the chief articles of your Religion such as the Adoration of Images Transubstantiation Communion under one kind The Popes supremacâ—e the holding of Apâ—criphal books for canonical Scriptrue the Jurisdiction of Popes over Princes your Papal Indulgences as extended to Purgatorie and consequently that PROTESTANTS who contradict you in all these particulars have the truth on their side how then I say were you not ashamed to make no other Reply to all these things But onely to say What make these things to the purpose Is it nothing to the purpose to prove the Fundamentals of your Religion to be falshoods and that the truth of GOD is mantained by the PROTESTANTS against your Popish Church Is not your Religion so unhappie that if it be convicted of one Falshood the whole fabrick and systeme thereof is overturned The Infallibility of your Church being a Fundamental point with you and yet when the falshood of so many points of your Religion is demonstrated What is that to the purpose say you Doe not such Papers deserve as Hierome said Alversus Vigilantium Indignationem scribentis rather to be answered with contempt and disdaine then with any serious confutation Are you not as ludibrious in your next Period Did not I in my last expostulat sharpely with you that in stead of making a polemick Reply to my Seventh Paper to which you answered not one word you did substitut a Railing Digression concerning the occasion of this Debate and of our verball conterence and so did put upon me a necessity of confuting your Calumnies concerning that Matter of Fact How then have you a face to charge me as if I had of my own accord and free choise fallen upon that Digression But though conscience move you not to answere to the arguments proving the falshood of your Religion for perhaps an ill cause and your Ignorance stand as invincible impediments in your way yet ought you not in commone honestie to have vindicated your self from the Falshoods charged upon you in that Matter of Fact Is it enough for you to say To what purpose are these discourses and ought not the matter of that conference be left to the judgement of the Auditors Who if you may be credited did see my feeblenes Am I from the purpose when I confute the lies of your Paper If you judge it not to the purpose to vindicat your self from so many Falshoods let you be stigmatized for the man you are If you would have had the matter of that conference remirted onely to the judgement of the Auditors among whom you had a company of judicious proselyts of the female sex why did you fall upon a Calumnious representation of it in your Last Why were Diffamatorie pasquils stuffed with reproaches long agoe disseminated through the Countrey May it not seeme strange that a person who hath given such shamefull demonstrations of His feeblenesse in nyne Papers should have the confidence to reproach another with Feeblenesse Loripedem derideat rectus But what occasion gave you in that conference to try either the feeblenesse or gallantrie of any Was any thing heard from you And if it should have been heard what noble stuffe it should have contained these your Nine Papers may testifie We should have had an Informal Syllogisme repeated Ad nauseam without probation of Major or Minor or rectifying the Forme thereof Would such a formidable Achilles have affrighted a poor School Boy Was there not an Argument propounded to you concluding the impiety of your Religion because it destroyed all Certainty of faith which you dared not once to examine And when you declined to answere thereto was there not cause Ex justa indignatione which you may reproach as Feeblenesse to refuse to hear you And in that which you were drawne with much importunity to answere with what credit came you off either of your self or your Church I am content that such of the hearers as had capacity may judge How comoe it that you touch not at all the foule staine which I shaw your Doctors leave upon your Romish Church by their Impious Doctrine of Probables How is it that you doe not at least turne thiâ— off as you have done the rest with your usual tergiversing Querie To what purpose is all this discourse Are you utterly silent as to this matter because you had occasioned this discourse by challenging us for proposing before our Auditors your Problematick Doctrines But then you should have keeped silence concerning the former particulars also for to them likewise were we led by your impertinencies Or doth your silence proceed from the conviction of conscience that you know not how these impieties could be justifyed like a School Boy who skips over the word in his lesson which he cannot read If this be the account of your silence I should not blame you so much onely I could wish that in your old dayes you might learne the ingenuity of acknowledging error to be error when it is convi cingly demonstrated to you Yet notwithstading all these tergiversing shifts and silent transitions you have the confidence to avouch Your readines to answere whole Tomes It is not a strange thing to see a Thraso and a Thersites joyned in one persone Who will beleeve that you who have sucoumbed these Eight or Nine times in answering a poor sheet or two for in all of them you have tergiversed and to some not answered one word at all that you are in such a Capacity to deale with Volumes Looke backe on the Papers which you have received and take a view of the Fallacies charged upon you as also how many Chiefe articles of your Religion I have impugned and all to his houre unanswered When you have discharged your self of that worke which already lyes upon you you may purchase some more credit to your emptie brags But I must correct my self I confesse you have invented a compendious Method of confuting both sheets and volumes by your usuall Querie To what purpose are these discourses If you please you may cause adde this your invention to the next addition of Pancirolli nova reperta Yet whether that compendious confutation looke like the Reply of a Disputant or of that which you are not willing to hear your self may judge Your Last apologie for not examining my Papers taken from the Prolixity of them seemes now too slender and pellucid to your own self therfore you are pleased to strengthen it by accusing my Papers of Barrennesse and Superfluity how well these your Rhetorications cohere together others may judge if my Papers be guilty of Barrennesse then have they too little matter in them if of Superfluity
true Ergo c. The Sequel of the Major you dare not but admit unlesse you mine Insidell and deny that the true Christian Religion hath solid grounds to prove its conformity with the Scripture And for the probation of the Assumption you cannot but allow me that measure against you which you allow your self against me and therefore I appeale you to produce any solid ground which the True Christian Religion hath which the Religion of PROTESTANTS wanteth Yea or any solid ground which you Râ—â—anists can pretend to for confirmation of your Religion which we want You have never adventured to name any but the pretended Infallibility of your Propounders But this we have so battered to you that now you have stolen fom it not daring to mention it againe in any of these your Two last Papers Nay Fourthly I must remember you of a Dilemma ad Hominem against you Romanists which you might have gathered from my last If we deviat from the sense of holy Scripture then it must be either in our Affirmatives or in our Negatives Not in our Affirmatives you and we agreeing in most of these Therefore either in these we have the true sense else you have it not Nor in our Negatives else your contradictorie Affirmatives should be true But I proved in my Last that in many of these you doe manifestly erre as contradicting the Ancient Romish Church particularly in your Adoration of Twages Transubstansiation Communion under one kind The Poper suprexmatie the Canonicall authority of Apocry ha bookes The jurisdiction of the Pope over secular Printes your papall Indulginces at extended to Purgarotse And I am readie to prove the falshood of the rest of your Super-induced articles when ever you have the confidence to come to a particular tryall But I am utterly discouraged from multiplying more instances against a tergiversing fellow who is neither moved by credit nor conscience to examine what is replyed to him Fifthly seeing you shun to tell a ground by which the truth of Religion is to be tryed lest the Balfardie of your Religion should be proven I will give you a solid ground from a person of great fame in your Romish Gourcâ—â— though a Grecian by extract This is Goorgius Scholarius who pleaded for the interest of the Latine Church in the matter of the ProcessioÌ„ of the holy Ghost from the Father and the Son at the Councell of Florence Now this Scholarius tom 4. Conciliorum in Orat. 3. ad Concil Florent proposes these rules for determining controversies in Religion Et primo quidem sayeth he non decet velle omnia disertis verbis è scriptura desumere cum multos haereticos scimus pratextu hoc usos Sed si quid verbis it a prolatis sit consequens adaeque erit honorandum similiter quod veris confessis fuerit repugnans contrarium nullo modo est admittendum deinde eorum quae obscurius dicta sunt sumendae sunt è scriptura ipsa veluti magistra explicationes per ea quae uspians clarius illa disserit Where this learned Author holds these foure choise Positions for discerning betwixt truth and error in Religion to all which we PROTESTANTS doe cordially agree The First is That all divine truth are not revealed in so many words in Scripture Secondly that some divine truths are plainly set downe Diserris verbis and what by firme consequence is deduced from these ought to be beleeved and received with the same respect as these which are delivered In terminis Thirdly whatsoever is repugnant to these truths which are plainly Diserris verbis set downe or confessed upon all hands ought to be rejected as erroneous Fourthly that these things which are more obscurely treated of in Scripture are to receive their explications from other cleare Scripture as the Mistres of our faith These grounds so laid downe he afterwards accon modaâ—s to his present Hypothesis for decyding the controversie betwixt the Latine and Greek Church concerning the procession of the holy Ghost and may by the same measure be applyed to the controversies betwixt us PROTESTANTS and You Romanists If therefore you will dire to adventure upon the tryal of particular controversies betwixt you and us according to this standard I trust you shall see if prejudice doe not blind you that all the points of the Religion of PROTESTANTS are either revealed in Scripture plainly and In terminis or the by solid consequence are deduceable from these which are revealed In terminis And on the contrary that your Supe irauce Romish article wherein we differ from you are neither In terminis in Scripture nor yet by solid consequence deduceable from these things which are clearly revealed in Scripture but on the contrarie are repugnant thereunto I hope therefore the intelligen Reader wil observe that if you descend not to a particular tryal it is not because a ground was not assigned to you from discerning truth in Religion from error but from diffidence of your desperat cause Onely that you doe not returne to your usual trifling Cavill that Hereticks and those of a false Religion may pretend the same grounds for justifying their Heresies let me tell you that Hereticks may indeed pretend a patrocinie from these grounds which upon examination will overturne their cause And therefore what I say to you I say the same of all other Hereticks Socinians Pelagians Nestorians Aâ—â—baptists Antinomians c. That if they will come to a particular discusse according to these premised rules what ever their pretences be it shall appeare that their Heresies are neither In terminis contained in Scripture nor yet are deduceable by solid reason from these things which are clearly revealed but are repugnant thereunto Sixthly I answere Directly to this your Cavill by this Distinction If you meane that PROTESTANTS or whatsoever society acclaiming the True Religion before they prove the truth of their Religion or the conformity thereof to the true sense of Scripture must first produce one ground proving all the senses which they give in Scripture In cumulo to be true without a particular examination of the several senses and points of Religion mantained by them that I say is a grosse falshood and mistake For a Society may professe the true Religion and mantaine all the essentialls the cof and yet as I told n my last have some errors mingled in with these 〈◊〉 as our Dâ—vines have demonstrated in the Question Nom Ecclesiâ— possit errare Therefore if this be your mâ—â—ning it concernes you to have proven it for I doe and in my Last I imply did deny it But if you onely meane that PROTESTANTS or others acclaiming the truth of Religion must either have the essentials and all truths in their Religion plainly and In terminis revealed in Scripture or else solidly deduceable upon a particular discusse from these things that are so plainly revealed I grant it freely that it ought and must be so And therefore it you will
Yea have not you of the Papal faction rent your selves from the Catholick Church Have not you revived the Schisme of the Donatists As they limited the Catholick Church to Africk doe not you limit it to the See of Rome Is not subjection to the Pope as universal Bishop an Essential of your Religion Was ever that an Essential of Religion in the Ancient Church Yea or in the Roman till of late especially in your Iesuit-sense as if the Pope had supreame jurisdiction on Earth even above Generall Councils Surely your Councils of Constance and Basile were of another opinion who not onely determined the Council to have jurisdiction over the Pope but also the Council of Basile Sess 45. in decreto 5. conclusionum is bold thus to affirm Nec unquam aliquis peritorum dubitavit Summum Pontificem in his quae fidem concernunt judicio ConcilioruÌ„ universalium esse subjectum And yet contrary to the judgement Peritorum omnium of all understanding Christians for the space of a thousand and foure hundred yeares after CHRIST if your Fathers of Basile be to be trusted your late Laterane Conventicle under Pope Leo the tenth Sess 11. hath defyned on the contrary the Pope to have jurisdiction above Generall Councils Doe you not by this your Schisme cut off your selves from the Body of the Catholick Church both of the Present and Former ages Doe you not oblige other Christian Churches to refuse Communion with you lest they should be involved in your Schisme and rent themselves with you from the Communion of all Christian Churches who acknowledge not the usurped supreamacie of your Pope If therefore you say that by the Church you meane onely the Particular Roman Church then why call you the Roman Church the Church as if there were no Church in the World but she Why doe you say that Luther did leap out of her Was he not driven out by Excommunication as learned Doctor Morton in his grand Imposture of the church of Rome cap. 15. Sect. 13. 14. 15. 16. hath copiously demonstrated in so much that your own Thuan as cited by the same Doctor Morton spares not to say Non defuerunt qui jam tum culpam in Leonem Papam rejicerent That there wanted not among your selves who laid the blame on Pope Leo the tenth But may not a man be a member of the Catholick Church though not of your Roman How often have PROTESTANTS declared that they onely refuse communion with you in so far as you reject the truth Imbrace the truth and lay by your supercilious Schisme and we are readie to joyne in communion with you But Fourthly why doe you not cite some Author for this Apocryphal prophesie which you impose on Luther That he would root out Poperie out of the World in two yeares Is it not observable that in all these your Nine Papers these two citations of Luther and Calvine are the first citations of any Authors that we have met with from you and you cite them at large without mentioning Booke Chapter or Page And I verily looke upon this which you alleage of Luther as an egregious calumny For I have some of Luthers workes by me and many grave Authors writing of him But that I neither find in his own Workes nor yet that is affirmed of him by any Credible Historian It is true your Bellarmine from whome it seemes you have borrowed this fiction In lib. 4. De Ecclesia Militante cap. 15. affirmes that your Lying Cochlaeus reported such a false prophesie of Luther But who knowes not that Bell â—rmine and other your Controversists are ready to scratch up the dirt which lying calumniating adversaries have thrown upon our Reformed Divines and that Cochlaeus in particular hath laboured to traduce Luther most calumniously even as that Runnagad Bolsecus hath most impudently reproached Master Calvine Who but an Ignorant or one possessed with Malice will give credit to Cochlaeus in this marter who is knowne to have been a most viruleut Adversarie of Luthers Am I the first who have given such a character of your Cochlaeus Hear what learned and modest Whitaker said of him when he is pondering the same allegeance of Bellarmine out of Cochlaeus Controvers de Ecclesia quaest 5. cap. 13. Respondeo sayeth he nullam fidem adhibendam esse Cochlaeo homini mendacissimo nec ullam habendam esse illius rationem fuit enim homo nullius fidei That is in English I answere that no faith is to be given to Cochlaeus a person exceedingly addicted to lying neither is any account to be made of his testimony for he was a man of no faith But I shall now onely remit you to a Lutheran Gerard in loc com loc de Eccles cap. 11. sect 12. § 290. where you will find both this Objection of Bellarmine and that Cochlaeanum mendacium as Gerard termes it that Lie of Cochlaeus concerning Luther copiously confuted But though it pleaseth GOD in the depth of his Judgements to permit your Papal usurpation to continue for a time as he hath permitted the Delusions and Usorpations of the Mahumetane faction Yet your Bellarmine acknowledges that Luther gave a blow to the Papacie which it never recovered Lib 3. De Romano Pontif. cap. 21. Ab eo tempore sayeth he quo per vos Papa Antichristus esse caepit non modo non crevit sed semper decrevit ejus imperium Hence this Distich was writen of him And againe Vir sine vi ferri vi verbi inermibus armis Vir sine re sine spe contudit orbis opes Lutherus decimum confecit strage Leonem De clava noli quaerere penna fuit And yet further Roma Orbem domuit Romam sibi Papa subegit Viribus illa suis fraudibus iste suis Quantum isto major Lutherus major illa Orbem urbemque uno qui domuit calamo As for predictions of Rom's overthrow I may remit you to more Canonick Prophesies thereof then that of Frederick You may if you will take one from Revel 14.8 Babylon is fallen is fallen that great citie because she made all Nations drinke of the wine of the wrath of her fornication You may take another from Revel 17.16 The ten hornes which thou saw upon the beast shall hate the whore and make her desolat and naked and eat her flâ—sh and burne her with fire You may adde a third from Revel 18.2 And the Angel cryed mighty lie with a strong voice Babylon the great is fallen is fallen and is become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every uncleane and hatefull bird Goe not to say that these are but our Lutheran comments to expound Babylon by Rome Did not Hierome so expound it Epist. ad Algasiam quaest 11. epist ad Asellam And Austine lib. 18. de civit DEI cap. 22. and Tertull. lib. contra Indaeos cap. 9. and Eusebius lib. 2. hist eccles cap. 14 Yea there is such
with the sense that the fathers gives And you are to be praised for the recanting of your former confining of this to the Fathers of the first three Centuries but withall you should have showne how farre and to how many more ages you doe now extend your former confining And who would not smyle to hear you recur to the Fathers who takes all authority from them holding them for men as obnoxious to errors as your selves are And when you are pressed with their authorities against you you run back to Scripture alone saying that you will admit them only in so farre as they agree to scripture that is to say to the arbitrarie glosses that you give to the letter of Scripture At length you have taken a compendious way to end all Controversie and to take away all doubt concerning the truth of your Religion makeing this offer that you will be content to disclaime PROTESTANT Religion if there can be brought any one article of it which you will not show to be contained either clearlie and in termes in some place of Scripture or else by a solid consequence that it is deduceable out of verities clearlie in termes revealed in Scripture This is your offer and I hope you meane that faling you will make this recantation publicklie and with some solemnitie Now I out of the love I carrie to this your conversion accepts your offer and not to burthen you with manie things I propone for the present this one article whereby you hold that there are onely Two Sacraments desiring you to assigne either a place of Scripture where this is clearly and in termes revealed or assigne some verity clearly and in termes revealed out of the which this article by a solid consequence may be deduced But remember that the question is not Whether there be two Sacraments but all the question is about this exclusive particle only two Sacraments Likwise be pleased to remember that the deductioÌ„ must besolid according to your own word that you use and it is not sufficiently proven to be solid because you call it solid or because you say it will appeare solid to all those Whose eyes the God of this World hath not blinded which is your ordinar expression in such like matters Master IOHN MENZEIS Answere to the Iesuits tenth Paper Some Observes upon Master Dempster the Jesuit his tenth Paper wherein he vainly imagines that he hath confuted the conformity of the Religion of PROTESTANTS with the Scriptures and yet hath said nothing either to weaken the Religion of PROTESTANTS or to establish the ruining Religion of Papists I Know not if ye doe blush but I am truly ashamed in your behalf that so much of my worke should have stood rather in discovering and confuting your Calumnies and Prevarications in matter of Fact then in examining your Arguments This your Tenth Paper comes short of none of the former as to this kind of stâ—ffe For in it I desiderat nothing of a Iesuit but the Acumen whereof these Children of Pride doe arrogantly boast though often times on very slender grounds whereof your Emptie Papers may be a luculent demonstration Towards the close of your Tenth Paper you at length seeme to agree but with how little ingennity may hereafter appear to have one Particular controversie betwixt us and you examined namely concerning the Number of Sacraments I have such an appetite once to try your behaviour on a Particular Controversie that I shall not insist in ripping up all the Trespasses of your Tenth Paper Yet some Specimen of them I must give least you should say that I doe charge you unjustly or least the credulity of a simple Reader should be abused by your bold Asseverations Should I but give a complete Index of your shamelesse Omissions it might satisfie the Reader that your Pasquil deserves nor the name of an Answere to my ninth Paper I shall hint only at a few whereof I doubt if a Person of ingenuity would have been guilty As First I shew from Chrysostome that your Objection concerning the sense of holy Scripture which hath been the substance of your two former Papers was an old rotten Cavil of Heathens against the Christian Religion and that Chrysostome of old did answere thereunto as we PROTESTANTS doe now a dayes to you Jesuits But this you say You purposlie omit as a Digression making nothing to our present purpose Is it nothing to our present purpose that you have nothing to object against our Religion but Heathnish cavils against the Christian Religion Is it nothing to the purpose that Chrysostome answered these Cavils as we PROTESTANTS doe you Jesuits Doeth not this demonstrat a consonancy betwixt Our Religion and the Old Christian Religion betwixt our principles and the principles of Chrysostome and consequently of other Ancient Fathers But to salve this your absurd omission you exercise your calumniating veine saying That I misapply Chrsostome and what I cite from him may be assumed by any Sectarie Is it enough for you to say that I misapplyed him Ought you not to have discovered my Trespasse Did I not give you the Formalia verba of the Father Should I regard your revileings who spare not to say that Chrysoslomes answere to the Paganes Objection may be assumed by any Sectarie Is not this an evidence that Chrysostome were he alive to day should be a Sectarie with you and of the Religion of PROTESTANTS But Secondly because you still clamoured though without cause That there is no assignable ground of the conformity of the Religio◠〈◊〉 PROTESTANTS had solid grounds to prove its conformity 〈◊〉 the Scripture One argument was proposed in a Syllogisticke frame the Medium whereof was that the Religion of PROTESTANTS had all the solid grounds which the True Christian Religion hath The other Argument was drawn up by way of Dâ—lemma because if our Religion deviat from the sense of Scripture then must it either be in our Positives or in our Negatives but in neither as I did demonstrate Yet neither of these Arguments doe you once touch Had you intended a Paper correspondent to your Inscription To prove the conformity of our Religion with scripture to be imaginary groundles ought you not to have examined and discussed these Arguments How would your men laugh at one who would set down a magnificke title promising a confutation of all Bellarmins arguments and yet in the body of the discourse touch none of them Is the strength of imagination so strong with you as to imagine that you have proven the conformity of the Protestant Religion with Scripture to be imaginarie and groundlesse when you dare not once touch the Arguments which are brought to prove the conformity of the PROTESTANT Religion with the Scriptures to be reall Have you not need to be sent to Pythagoras School to be taught to be mute untill you learne to speake to purpose But Thirdly I did not only prove that the Religion of PROTESTANTS had
might have been revealed and no obligation laid upon us to believe them And in this you blame me That I only proved by the Scripture-instances which I brought that there is no actuall separation betwixt all the truths contained in Scripture and the true Religion but did not prove them insenarable But if you looke againe to my Paper you will find that your inadvertencie is onely to be blamed For I did prove the absolute inseparabilitie betwixt all the truths contained in Scripture and the true Religion Which againe I thus demonstrate according to the grounds laid downe in my Last If all the truths in Scripture cannot be without an obligation to believe them in order to the obtaining of Salvation then All the truths of Scripture cannot be except they compound a Religion But the first is true therefore also the last The Sequel of the Major is clear because this is the only pretence upon which you suppose that all Scripture Truths may be and yet compound no Religion because they may be and yet no obligation be laid upon us to believe them If therefore they cannot be except an obligation be laid on us to believe them then surely they cannot be except they compound a Religion It remaines therefore only that we prove the Assumption that they all cannot be revealed without an obligation to believe them and this is cleare from the Scriptures cited in my Last Paper because this is one of the Truths in those Scriptures that we are obliged to believe these Truths And I cited purposlie these Scripturs to prove this And therfore it is impossible that all Scripture truths can be and we not be obliged to believe them For this is one Scripture truth that we are obliged to believe the Truths revealed in Holy Scripture What now I have demonstrated more prolixlie I set downe clearly enough though more succinctly in my Last Albeit it seemes you have been so taken up with your Precifive airie Notions that you have not understood the Paper which was sent to you But to prevent your further mistake in this I thinke it fit to let you know that I distinguish betwixt these two I doe indeed confesse that a Religion may be though nothing be coÌ„mitted to Writing And this was the case of the Ancient Church before Moses But this concernes not our present debate But the thing I deny is That all the truths contained in Scripture way be and yet make no Religion at all And this I hope now I have demonstrated against you both in this and in the former Paper Though your Notional precisions have made either your sight or your judgement Preseind from the Paper which you should have examined and consequently from the purpose By these hints you may consider whether you have added any strength to your insignificant Objection Concerning the sense of Scripture But because you are still harping upon this Cavil About the sense of the Scriptures It would appear that you Looke upon Scripture as so obscure as not able to be a ground for decision of controversies in Religion unless there be some infallible visible-judge I shall desire you to consider how different you are in your apprehersions as to this matter from the Ancient Church in which the decision of Controversies in Religion was committed sometime to Secular persons yea sometime to Heathens which your self will confesse not to be Infallible Have you not read that writing which passeth under the name of Vigilius Bishop of Trent in which there is a dispute betwixt Sabellius Photinus and Arius upon the one side and Athanasius on the other concerning the Trinitie and Deitie of the Lord Jesus Christ and Probus a Heathen is constituted judge to determine betwixt them not according to his own fancy but according to the proofes which they should produce from the Scriptures and after hearing of both he gives sentence for the Truth This dispute you will find set forth among Cassanders works from Page 460. and the sentence of Probus the Judge page 506. c. I doe not say that this Conference was real for the Collocutors were not contemporarie Yet the Learned and Ancient Author of this Dialogue who by some is supposed to be Pope Galosius doth clearly insinuate that the most sublime Mysteries of Christianity are so luculently revealed in Scripture that a meer Pagane may finde out the true sense of Scripture concerning them Have you nor tâ—ad in Epiphanius haeres 66. how that Archelaus an Orthodox Bishop had a dispute against the pernicious Heretick Manet in Caschara a City of Mesopotamia and how by commone consent they â—â—bâ—â—icâ—ed unto Foure Heathen Judges to Marcipus a Phil sâ—ph to Claudius a Physitian to Aegialous a Gramariare and to Clerbâ—lus a Sophister who after hearing adjudged the Victorie to Archelaus And this was no fiction but a reall deed What should I tell you how Laurentius a secular person was Arbiter in a dispute betwixt Augustine and Pascortius an Arian as appeares by Austineâ— Aepist 178 Or how Marcellinus a Tribune did preside by the appointment of Honorius the Emperour at a conference betwixt the Orthodox and the Donatists as Augustine holds forth Tom. 7. in Brevic. Collat Doe not all these make it evident that the Ancient Church did not apprehend such impossibility of finding out the true sense of Scripture without the previous decision of an Infallible visible judge How did Christ command us to Search the Scriptures John 5.39 if their sense be unsearchable Is not this on controversie in Religion whether there be a necessity of an Infallible visible judge and Propounder and who he is And who I pray you shall determine this if not the Scriptures If you have an Infallible Propounder without whose decision the sense of Scripture cannot be attained how injurious is he to the Christian World who will not put forth a clear Comment upon the Whole Scriptures for the finall decision of all Controversies Why doth he not at least give a Decision concerning these inrestine debates among your selves as betwixt your Dominicans and Jesuits c. Are you so farre deluded as not to know that this Fable of Infallibility is the cunning imposture whereby men of your imployment have laboured of a long time to cheat the World But now these of the Traditionarie way among you beginne to perceive that the World is too wise to be still cheared by that one Trick therefore they are betaking themselves to another Method but as fallacious as the former You have a Querie which you expect that I should notice You desire to know When Luther leapt out of the Church of Rome as you phrase is if there was any Church on earth with whome he had visible Communion May ye not be ashamed to move such a Question to me I having convicted you of so many Falshoods and Foolries concerning your last discourse of Luthers separation from Rome and of a Lying Prophesie which you following Bellarmine and Cachlaeus imposed
and Eutychianism The same also is confirmed by Ephraim Pagit in his Christianography part 1. cap. 10. where he likwise undertakes to prove that these Churches are not Heretical but Orthodox in the maine But concerning the vindication of the Greek Church in particular at least from a Fundamental error touching The procession of the holy Ghost I shall referre you to learned Stilling fleet in his Rational account of the PROTESTANT Religion part 1. cap. 1. I know your Cardinal Barronius in the end of the Sixth tom of his Annals labours to perswade the World that an Embassy was sent to Pope Clement the eight from Gabriel Patriarch of Alexandria submitting himself and all the Churches under his jurisdiction both in Egypt and Abassia to the Pope But as learned Breerwood observes in his Inquirie about the diversitie of Languages Religiones Cap. 22. this upon examination was found to be a meer Trick of imposture Yea this cheat is acknowledged not only by your Historian Thuan lib. 114. ad annum 1595. but also by Thomas a Jesu the Carmelit De conversione omnium gentium lib. 7. cap. 6. pag. 364. Have you no way to perswade the World of the Catholicisme of your Church but by such Impostures I might besides remember you of the Waldenses and Albigenses a people nearer hand who professed as to Substantials the same Religion with PROTESTANTS long before Luther Yet we never looked on them or Luther or Calvine as the Authors of our Religion as you doe rantingly talk For it derives its Original from Christ alone and his Apostles Prove it to be of meaner or latter extract and I will disowne it I know the Waldenses were loaded with grievous aspersions by the Zealots of the Romish faction as if they had been Arrians Manichees Necromancers and what not But they are abundantly vindicated from these Calamnies by learned Divines out of the writings of Authors who cannot be suspected to have been too favourable to them I shall only at the time remember you of that known testimonie of the Inquisitor Reyner concerning them Quod coram hominibus juste vivant bene omnia de Deo credant omnes articulos qui in symbolo continentur Solum Romanam Ecclesiam blasphemant oderunt That is They live justly before men they believe all things well concerning GOD and all the Articles of the Creed Onely they hate and blaspeme the Church of Rome You may judge of the rest of the Calumnies thrown upon thâ—m by these two chief ones whereof learned Prideaux lect 9. De visibilitate Ecclesiae § 11. gives this account They were sayeth he charged as mantaining with the Manichees Due Principia Two beginnings of things GOD and the Devil because forsooth they mantained that the Emperour was independent from the Pope They were likewise sayeth he charged with Arriantsme because they denyed Crustam in Christum esse transubstantiatam That a crust of bread was transubstantiated into Christ in the Sacrament You may see a large vindication of them in Vsser De successione Ecclesiarum in Occidente ab Apostolâ—rum temperibus ad nostram aetatem capp 6 8.10 Let it suffice at the time to remember you that he cites cap. 10. pag. 373. edit 2. luculent testimonies out of Paradius Annals of Burgundy and Girardus French Historie that because of their freedome in reproving the dissolute life and debauched manners of the Romish Clergie Plures nefariae eis assingebantur opiniones à quibus fuerunt omnino alâ—eni That is Many impious opinions were atributed to the Waldenses which they altogether abhorred I might also make mention of these in Bohem who were termed the Hussits to whome Hoornbeck in the forcited place testifies that the Church of CoÌ„stantinople wrot a letter in the year 1451. exhorting theÌ„ to CoÌ„munion with the Greek Church in oppositioÌ„ to the Bishop of Rome Yea your own Cochlaeus other Popish writers are quoted by Prideaux Lect. 9. § 11. acknowledging that the Lutherans derived their doctrine from the Hussits the Hussits from the Wicklevists the Wicklevists from the Waldenses When therfore ye are better instructed you will acknowledge that there Religion ours as to Substantials are the same But I may come yet nearer and tell you that Luther had Communion with many thousands who before his appearance were groaning under the corruptions of the Church of Rome and breathed after the shaking off the yoke of the Papal faction As beside others Doctor Field hath demonstrated in Lib. 3. of his way to the Church cap. 12. and more largely in his Appendix to that Third booke Thinke you the World to be strangers to the piteous complaints of Nicolaus Clemanges Alvarez Pelagius Theodoricus à Niem Gulielmus à Saucto Amore c. Concerning the Corruptions of the church of Rome Yea did not Pope Adrian the sixth acknowledge the necessitie of a reformation and that the World was hungrily expecting it I know your late Papal parasites would perswade us That it was only a reformation of manners and not of Doctrine which was groaned after in the church of Rome But the contrarie is luculently demonstrated by our Authors I shall at the time only remit you to Sir Humphry Lynd's defence of Via tuta against I. R. entiuled a case for the spectacles cap. 4. pag. 165. c. Where he bringes testimonies not onely from the Cardinal de Alâ—aco Gerson Grostead Occam and from the Council of Pisa but also from the Council of Trent it self to prove that before and about the first sitting down of that Council Romanists themselves were sensible that There was a necessity of reformation of doctrine as well as of manners Hence was it that so many thousands in most of the nations of Europe did joine with Luther at his appearance who did not only oppose The corrupt manners but also the Corrupt Doctrines of the Church of Rome Hence is that of your Alphonsus à Castro adversus haeres in Aepist nuneupat ad Pacâ—ec Cardinal Nec solus Lutherus hoc saculo prodâ—it sed multorum Hareticorum agmine ceu quodam satellitio stipatus processit qui illum tanquam ducem primo egredientem spectasse videntur Where he acknowledgeth that Luther came forth accompanied as with an Armâ—â— who but waited for his appearance as their Captaine and Leader But that I may shut up this Section had you considered how this Queriâ— is retorted by our Divines upon you I believe you would have spared it They ask where your Present Romish Religion as now it stands was before the council of Trent which was confirmed by Pope Pius the fourth Anno 1564. long after Luthers death Our Divines know that there were many corruptions in the Church of Rome before the Council of Trent against which the Waldenses the Wicklevists the Hussits Luther and others did witnes But the question now is Whether the then Church of Rome mantained all the points of Religion as necessary to Salvation which
Thirdly Is not he at least bound to prove a Negative who undertakes the Probation thereof Should one undertake to prove that such an one had no Commission from the Secret Council would not his undertaking of this oblige him to prove it Seeing therefore by the Proposal of your Negative Syllogisme you undertake to prove the Premisses thereof how can you deny that you are bound to prove them But Lastly though I have keeped you to your duety that it might appeare that you have undertaken an impossible task yet I was so farre from shunning to give a Ground of our Religion that I have often produced to you the Grounds thereof as my Papers will witness and have cut off your Cavills against them Whether therefore I who have given Grounds on which we walk and appealed you to try accordingly the particular points of our Religion Whether then I say I or you who shunne to give the Grounds of your Religion yea or Any ground whereby the truth of Religion may be examined be like to the Knave in your Example let these who are not Knaves themselves judge You have frequently clamoured That those of a false Religion may assume the grounds which we have given with as much reason as we and so you repeat your old Knavish example comparing our Religion to an Honest-man betwixt whome and a Knave there is no difference How often hath this been confuted before But you have the impudencie to repeat Ad nauseam often confuted Calumnies not once concerning your self to examine what was replyed to them I confess an Heretick could soon give all the Grounds to prove his Religion and a Knave to prove his Honesty which you have brought to prove your Religion For though you have been often required to condescend upon the Groundâ— of your Religion you have been able to produce none only some hints you had at the Infallibility of your propounders but were soon beaten off from that pretence How often hath it been told you that these of a False Religion may pretend though falsly to the same Grounds with those of a True Religion as a Knave may pretend to the same Arguments to prove his Honestie which a truely Honest-Man doth Doe not Quakers pretend to Infallibility as well as your Popes Did nor Appallonius Thyanaeus boast of Miracles as well as your Romish Synagogue Did not the old Arians and Donatists claime the title of the Catholicks as well as you Doe not the Patriarchs of Alexandria whome you hold for Schismaticks alleage a Personal and Locall succession as well as your Popes Will you for this disclaime your Popes infallibility the Miracles of your Church the Title of Catholicks and Your succession But whereas you say That these of a false Religion may assume the same grounds which we have proposed with as good reason as we Is I pray you a False Religion plainly laid down in Scripture or deduceable by firme consequence from Scripture Is not this the Test by which you have been required to try all points of Controversie betwixt you and us But you have judged it your interest to hold rather on general Calumnies then to come to a particular discusse I come now to your last Paragraph wherein you make a Bravade of condescending to have one point of controversie betwixt us and you examined but with your usuall candor Have I not been obtesting you all this time that you would leave your trifling Generals and come to a discusse of Particulars Did I not assure you in my Last that if upon a particular examination it should not appear that all the points of our Religion are either plainly in Scripture or solidly deduceable from that which is plainly there I would renounce it and onely required the like ingenuity in you that if it be found that your Popish Religion is neither plainly in Scripture not by solide consequence deduceable from that which is clearly there that you would be as can did in disowning your Papal Superstition To this you say You imbrace the offer and onely desire that I would prove this one point of Religion viz. That there be onely two Sacraments Where I desire First it may be observed that in professing your acceptation of my Offer you dissemble the one half of it You make mention of my undertaking for the PROTESTANT Religion but you altogether wave the provision on your part for the Popish Religion and therefore you require me to prove that there be only two Sacraments yet you doe not once offer to prove that there are seven which is the Popish assertion What unfaithfulnesse and cowardlinesse is bewrayed by this mutilation of my Proffer the unpartial Reader may judge Were I to be blamed though I declyned to prosecut my Offer you not accepting it Intirely But I am not so base nor distrustful of our cause You say That love to my conversion moved you to accept the offer If your love to me were sincere you would not tergiverse as you doe for you ought to prove Positively that there be Seven Sacraments neither more nor fewer Though I could not prove that there be only two yet I could be no Papist in that point except I be convinced that there be only seven As your Cursing I had almost said Cursed Council of Trent hath defyned Sess 7. Can. 1. Si quis diâ—â—erit Sacramenta novae legis aut esse plura vel pauciora quam septem viz. Baptismum Confirmationem Eucharistiam Paenitentiam Extremam Unctionem Ordinem Matrimonium anathema sit That is If any shall say that the Sacraments of the new law are more or fewer then seven â—â—â—ly Baptisme Confirmation the Euch â—rist Pennance Extreame unction Order and Matrimonie let him be accursed If therefore one should 〈◊〉 antaine that there were three or foure or five or six or eight or nyne or twenty c. Sacraments he should indeed differ from us in this particular but yet be no Papist Your tergiveâ—fing assures me you have no strength of reason with you to perswade me to become your Proselyt And if you had such a zeal for my Conversion why did you not imbrace this Offer sooner I having often made such like appeals to you in divers of the foregoeing Papers But Secondly if there be any point of Controversie betwixt PROTESTANTS and Papists where a cavilling Sophister may lurke under ambiguity of words and darken the Debate with Logomachies this is the point which you have chosen concerning the number of Sacraments For the word Sacrament in the strict notion wherein it 's taken either by our or your Divines in this controversie is not used in Scripture no not in your Vulgar latine unlesse you will be pleased to acknowledge that the Whoore of Babylon is one of your Sacraments For Revel 17.7 your Vulgar latine reads thus Dicam tibi Sacramentum mather is I will tell thee the Sacrament of the woman but your Rhemists are there ashâ—â—â—ed to use the word Sacrament Nor is
delyvered without the holy scriptures But secondly I might argue thus ad Hominem against you were it not that I feared too great Prolixity if there be any more then these two it would be some or al of your five pretended Sacraments Confirmation Pēnance Marriage Extrem Vnction or Ordination But none of these farre lesse all of them therefore there are no proper Sacraments at all besides these two which we acknowledge The sequel is clear for there are none else besides these which you can allege Yea if I prove that any one of these is not a proper Sacrament the Infallibility of your Church and consequently the whole structure of your Religion is gone To insist upon the probation of this last Assumption at large would engage me upon too voluminous a discourse You may see it largely done by Chamier tom 4. lib. 4. à cap. 7. ad 32. treating severally of each of these pretended Sacraments and more succinctly by Maresius tom 2. contra Tirinum controv 20.23.25.26 and 27. no to remit you to many Authors Now only to give you a short hint I say that none of these your five pretended Sacraments have all the forementioned conditions of a Sacrament and consequently none of them are properly so called Sacraments of the New Testament First then to beginne with Confirmation The Matter thereof which we call the Visible signe or Element sayes your Pope Eugenius the fourth and your Council of Florence in Decrete ad instructionem Armenorum and your Roman Catechisme part 2. cap. 3. quaest 6. Is oyle mixed with balsome consecrated by a Bishop The Forme of it or words to be pronunced at the celebration thereof As the same Eugenius Catechism ibid quaest 10. do declare is Sigte signo crucis confirmo te chrismate salutis in nomine Patris Filis spiritus sancti But there is no divine institution either of that matter or forme recorded in all the New Testament as your own Authors are constrained to acknowledge particularly Suarez in 3. part tom 3. quaest 72. disp 33. sect 1. 5. If the signe you use in Confirmation be not of divine institution then it cannot seale to the Soul the promises of Salvation nor is it of necessity perpetually to endure in the Church If you say that you have a Divine institution for it though not in the Scriptures yet attested by unwriten tradition You must first prove the Canon of the Scriptures to be imperfect and then demonstrate by universal tradition in all ages that there was a divine institution of Chrisme mixed with balsome as the matter of a distinct and peculiar ordinance together with these words which you now use in the Romish Church which you may finde a difficult task Nay your famous Jesuit Escobar confesses that these words which you call the forme of this Sacrament were not instituted by CHRIST Hear himself lib. 12. Theol. Moral Sect. 2. cap. 14. probl 15. num 116. Christus sayeth he verba illius formae non determinavit sed Ecclesiae determinanda reliquit That is Christ determined not the words of this forme but left them to be determined by the Church As much is confessed by Alexander of Hales and Bonaventure As Suarez testifies tom 3. in 3. part quaest 72. disp 32. sect 2. concerning your visible matter of this Sacrament viz Oyle Olive mixed with balsom that neither were these instuted by Christ So that now it is tossed among your selves as a Probleme whether Oyle mixed with Balsom be the necessarie matter of this Sacrament And many Authors of great fame among you mantaine the negative as you may find in Escobar lib. 12. Theel. Moral Sect. 2. cap. 12. probl 3. num 78. And in Suarez tom cit disp 33. sect 1. If therefore you say that imposition of hands is the visible signe in Confirmation as Bellarmine seemes to doe lib. de confirm cap. 2. § Jam vero medium albeit afterwards he likewise capp 8. and 9. pleads for the necessity of the Unction also you may see this copiously confuted by Chamier tom 4. lib. 4. de sacram novi Testamenti cap. 10. Take now but these passing hints And first imposition of hands may be a Rite but who can say that it is a substantial signe or such a signe as may congruously be termed an Element Secondly how can that be the Visible signe of this pretended Sacrament which neither belonges to the matter nor forme thereof if Pope Eugenius and your Roman Catechisme have rightly designed them Thirdly how can that be the peculiar signe of Confirmation which is commone to other Sacraments according to your Romish compuration particularly to Ordination and Extreame Unction Well did Austine speake concerning this Rite of imposition of hands lib. 3. de Baptismo contra Donatistas cap. 16. Quid est aliud manus impositio nisi oratio super hominē Fourthly either by this imposition of hands is meaned the Unction with Chrisme or some distinct Imposition If the first no institution thereof is mentioned in Scripture If the second though imposition of hands some times was practised by the Apostles for conferring the gifts of the holy Ghost yet there is no command for the perpetuity of it Hence Suarez loco citato sect 4. determines that no Imposition of hands distinct from the Unction is of the Essence of this pretended Sacrament of Confirmation But your Cassander in Consultatione art 13. brings in Hoscot a learned Doctor in the Roman Church as questioning whether Confirmation be a proper Sacrament What respect judicious Calvine had for Confirmation in a sound sense himself declares lib. 4. institut cap. 19. § 4. But how much and justely he dislykes your Romish pretended Sacrament of Confirmation and the superstitious Rites thereof may be seene ibid. from § 5. to the 13. But though you Romanists pretend a kind of zeal for Confirmation as a proper Sacrament yet have not many of your late Casuists Jesuits disputed it almost into contempt Is it not a Probleme among you whether there be any command of God or of the Church to receive Confirmation Or whether it be so much as a venial sinne to omit it when a person hath convenient opportunity for it Hath not your Jesuit Escobar diverse problemes to this purpose lib cit cap. 16. problem 31.32.33 c Yea doth not Escobar positively mantaine that there is no command either divine or ecclesiastick for it Hear himself problem 31. num 181. Existime sayeth he nullum dari nec divinum nec ecclesiasticum praeceptum confirmationts recipiendae That is I judge that there is no command either of GOD or of the Church to receive confirmation A noble Sacarment forsooth which persons are not bound to receive even when they have convenient opportunity for it yet lest he should seeme to be alone of this judgement he cites for the same in his next probleme num 183. Henriquez Coninck Lessius Tolet Reginaldus Ledesma Vivaldus Sayrus Valentia Bonacina
praesenti that the object thereof doe exist in that article of time wherein the Copula of the proposition is pronounced But according to you Christ Body is not under the accidents of bread when the Copula of the proposition is pronounced for according to you Christs Body is not in the Sacrament till all the Words be ended Therefore the proposition according to your Glosse cannot be true And yet it must be true as being the word of him who is truth it self And consequently it must be Ture and Not True Your Schoolmen have perplexed themselves with these Aenigma's but could never extricat themselves out of this labyrinth in so much that what one of them affirmes the other confutes As these hints prove the falshood of your Romish glosse so the truth of the sense given by PROTESTANTS is manifest from the Series of the context For if by the pronowne Hoc or This Christ meaned the bread then the sense of the proposition must be figurative But by the pronowne This he surely understood the bread Ergo c. The Major is clear because disparats cannot be predicated of one another but Figuratively The Minor is easily proven Because what he tooke blessed and did breake of that he said This is my Body as is clear from the Series of the context But undoubtedly he tooke blessed and brake the bread therefore it was the bread which he did demonstrate by the pronowne This. And consequently the sense must be Figurative Neither is this a late invention of PROTESTANTS Said not Austin Contra Adimantum cap. 12. The Lord doubted not to say This is my Body Cum daret signum Corporis sui That is when he gave the signe and figura of his Body And long before him Tertullian Lib. 4. Adversus Martionem cap. 40. Acceptum panem distributum Corpus suum fecit hoc est Corpus meum dicendo ad est figura Corporis mei Could Calvin or Beza have more luculently affirmed the meaning of Christs proposition to be Figurative I know your two Cardinals Bellarmin and Perron have scrued up a multitude of wrested testimonies of Antiquity as if the Ancient Church had favoured your monstrous sigment of Transubstantiation But Spalatensis Lib. 5. De Rep. Eccles cap. 6. à num 22. Ad numerum 164. not to mention other Authors hath copiously examined and fully vindicated all these testimonies and clearly demonstrated that the Church in the first Eight Centuries was in the same judgement as to the Sacrament of the Eucharist with the Reformed Churches By this touch the judicious Reader may discerne whether our exposition of that rext be not built upon solid grounds The like might be shewed if our expositions and yours were compared of other much tossed Scripturs such as Luke 22.32 I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not Matth. 16.18 Upon this rock I will build my Church 1. Tim. 3.15 The pillar and ground of truth Iob. 21.16 Feed my sheep c. And this were the most compendions way to try whether your expositioÌ„ or ours were the more genuine This also was the advice of Augustine of old Lib. 3. Contra Maximin Arianum cap. 14. Nec ego Nicaenum nec tu debes Arâ—minense tanquam prajudisaturus proferre Concilium Nec ego hujus authoritate nec tu illus detineris Seripturarum authoritatibus non quorumcunque proprys sed utrisque communâ—bus testibus res cum re causa cum causa ratic cum ratione concertes It is true throogh prejudice interest or blindnes men may oppose the most luculent truth after all these meanes But then the whole defect is as we have often advertised you Ex parts subjecti on the part of the subject And so much of your three frivolous cavils against the Scripturs perspicuity in al things necessarie to Salvation In your next section as you declined a tryal by Scripture so likewise you shun to have your Religion tryed by Antiquity and you pretend two noble shifts The first is that according to us al these in the first three Centuries were fallible and therefore though our Religion were conforme to theirs it will not follow that it is the True Religion I doubt if ever any had to doe with such a shamelesse tergiversing fellow For First suppose it were true that our Divines did say that all these of the three first Centuries were Fallible yet if you grant their Religion to be the True Religion and I admit their Religion as to all essentials to be a Test whether ours be true or not with what face can you decline it Know you not that Maxim of Law Testem quem quis inducit pre se tenetur recipere contrase Secondly how could you say That we affirme that all these of the first three Centuries were fallible seeing in these centuries were the Apostles whome we acknowledge to have been Infallible in their Doctrine But Thirdly by saying That we mantains that all in these ages even excepting the Apostles and pen-men of holy writ were fallible and subject to errors you discover your self to be either grosly ignorant of the judgement of PROTESTANTS or to be a base scurvie sophister which will appeare by distinguishing two words in your assertion For First the particle All may be taken either Collectively or Distributively And Secondly Errors of Religion are of two sorts Some in points fundamental and essential some in points which are not of such indispensable necessity This being premised I propose this Distinction If you meane that we mantaine that All in these ages Collectively taken that is the whole Catholick Church may erre in Fundamentals and Essentials it is a most absurd falshood for PROTESTANTS mantaine no such thing We acknowledge the promises for the perpetuity of the Church Isa 59. ver 21. Matth. 28 ver 20. c. But if the whole Catholick Church collectively taken did err in Fundamentals in any age then the Church for that time should utterly cease to be upon earth It is True sundrie of your Writers either through Ignorance or through their calumniating Genius have charged this on PROTESTANTS that they mantaine that the Church may utterly fail But this is so impudent a slander that Bellarmin himself is ashamed of it Lib. 3. De Ecclesia Militants cap. 13. Notandum sayeth he Multos ex nostris tempus terere dum probant absolute Ecclesiam non posse desicere nam Calvinus cateri Heretici id concedunt If therefore this be your meaning you charge PROTESTANTS falsly But if you onely meane that All in these ages taken Distributively remember that now we speake not of Apostles or of pen-meÌ„ of holy writ or of these who had an extraordinatie Prophetick spirit might erre in things not Fundamental this is granted Yet this hinders not but that the truth of our Religion may be proven by its conformity with the faith of the Ancient Church For though every one Distributively taken may erre in Integrals yet seeing Al