substance or that they may be reunited BEfore I am to deliuer my opinion concerning this point I had neede to be enformed what this Author meaneth by these words our Religion For there being great diuersities of pretended Religions currant in the world all contrary to the Church of Rome how can I certainlie know whether of them hâ— professeth Wherefore good Sir may it please you to declare what Religion you vnderstand when you say our Religion Is it that which Martin Luther a licentious Fryer first preached in Germany or rather that which the martiall Minister Zwinglius contended with sword and shield to set vp in Switzerland or perhaps that which John Caluin by sedition wrought into Geneua expelling the lawfull Magistrate thence and by the ayde of Beza a dissolute turnecoate spread into many corners of France Or if by your Religion you meane only to comprehend the Religion now practised in England yet are you farther to shewe whether you vnderstand that established by the State or the other more refined as it is thought by many and embraced by them who are called Puritanes for of their leauen sauoureth that position of yours That the article of Christs descent into bell crept into the Creede by negligence and some other such like in this booke These principall diuisions of the new Gospell to omit sundrie sub-diuisions being famous and receiued of diuers in England according to each mans phantasie it is meete you expresse whether of them you speake of that it may be dulie considered how the Romane Religion and it agree and what vnion may be made betweene them speaker A. W. Is this no superfluitie of words What reasonable man can doubt that Master Perkins by our religion meanes as you say afterward the religion now professed in England For your word practised is too skant for doctrine some points whereof fall not into practise If it be contrarie to the Church of Rome it is easily answered without any such inquirie that contraries cannot be vnited If difference in some points make a diuers religion how many kindes are there amongst you Papists let the Franciscans and Dominicans goe with all the rest of former times what say you to these maine points Iustification in Pighius Predestination in Bellarmine Free will in Bartholomew Camerarius three pillers of your Church The difference betwixt Protestants and Puritanes as you call them is not in any essentiall point of faith but in matters of outward gouernment and ceremonies speaker W. P. And this shall appeare if we doe but a little consider how they of the Romane Church haue rased the foundation For though in words they honour Christ yet in deede they turne him to a Pseudo-Christ and an Idoll of their owne braine speaker D. B. P. Now if you meane the hotchpotâ—h and confusion of all these new Religions together as by the opposition here vnto the Church of Rome and by the artiâ—les following may be gathered then I am cleere for you in this that there can be no more concord betweene these two Religions then there is betweene light and darknes faith and insidelâ—tie Christ and Beliall Notwithstanding I thinke that the reason by you produced to proue the impossibilitie of this vnion is of no value to â—it that they of the Romane Church â—aue razed the foundation for though in vvords they honour Christ yet indeede they turne him into a Pseudochrist and an â—doll of their 〈◊〉 braine A very sufficient cause no doubt of eternall breach and diuision if it could be verisied But how proue you that we Romane Catholikes who beleeue Iesus Christ to be perfect God and perfect Man and the onely Redeemer of Mankinde make him a false Christ and an Idoll or before you goe about to proue it tell me I pray you how this can well stand with your owne definition of a reformed Catholike in your Preface There you affirme him to be a Catholike reformed to your liking that holdeth the same necessarie heads of Religion vvith the Romane Church Now can there be any more necessarie head of Religion than to haue a right faith in Christ can any other foundation be laid besides Iesus Christ If then your reformed Catholike must agree with the Romane Church in neâ—essarie heads of Religion as you hold he must either the Romane Church â—…th not the foundation and maketh not Christ a Pseudochrist as you say here or else you teach your disâ—iples very pernitiously to hold the same necessarie heads of Religion with it speaker A. W. It is no confusion to take from seuerall men seuerall opinions agreeing with the word of God Luther hauing been a long time kept in the darknes of Pâ—…pcrie could not by and by discerne the truth in all points Was not your superstition both for doctrine and ceremonics patcht vp peece by peece as it could procure allowance from time to time Yea was not the truth of Religion made manifest by little and little in the Church as God gaue learned men occasion of studie and a blessing in their studie against the poyson of Heretikes Such hath been and such alwaies will be the course of the Gospell that truth will be more and more knowne as there is more opposition against it and as men bestow more paines in reading praying and studying To denie the reason or argument is to denie the consequence not the antecedent but you grant the consequence viz. That razing the foundation and turning Christ into a Pseudochrist is a sufficient cause of eternall breach onely you denie the antecedent that the Church of Rome doth so At the least as well as you prooue that the Church of England holding the same opinions of Christ haue no faith no religion no Church no Christ c. But let vs see how you disprooue the antecedent If your reformed Catholike say you must agree with the Romane Church in many heads of religion either the Romane Church razeth not the foundation or else you teach your disciples very pernitiously to hold the same necessarie heads of religion with it But he must agree with it in many heads of religion Therfore either the Romane Church razeth not the foundation or you teach your disciples very pernitiously to hold the same necessarie heads of religion with it I denie the consequence of your proposition because by paring of the errors which Master Perkins requires he shall keepe himselfe from razing the foundation though he hold the same necessary heads for example he must holde with you that a true ChristiaÌ„ must haue a right faith in Christ but he must reiect the faith you professe as not right Again he must hold that no other foundation can be laid but Iesus Christ not that you lay him aright for the foundation speaker W. P. They call him our Lord but with this condition that the Seruant of Seruants of this Lord may change and adde to his commaundements hauing so great a power that he
your Maiesties recorded in the aforesaid Conference speaker A. W. I doubt not but if those learned treatises you bragge of be come to his Maiesties hands either they haue had or shal ere long receiue sufficient answere In the meane while let vs consider these your reasons speaker D. B. P. And because that argument is as most sensible so best assured which proceedeth from a principle that is either euident in it selfe or else granted and confessed for true My first proofe shall be grounded vpon that your Maiesties owne resolute and constant opinion as it appeareth in the said Conference to wit That no Church ought further to separate it selfe from the Church of Rome either in doctrine or ceremonie then she hath departed from her selfe vvhen she vvas in her flourishing and best estate From whence I deduce this reason The principall Pillers of the Church of Rome in her most flourishing estate taught in all poynts of Religion the same Doctrine that she now holdeth and teacheth and in expresse tearmes condemneth for error and heresie most of those Articles which the Protestants esteeme to be the principall parts of their reformed Gospell Therefore if your Maiestie will resolutely imbrace and constantly defend that doctrine which the Roman Church maintained in her most flourishing estate you must forsake the Protestant and take the Catholike into your Princely protection speaker A. W. The most flourishing and best estate of the Church of Rome is that out of question of the sinceritie whereof wee haue witnes in the Scripture from which no Church ought or may depart not because they may not dissent from the Church of Rome but because they must hold the true faith for which the Apostle commends the Church of Rome that then was The antecedent of your reason is false The Church of Rome in the Apostles time did not teach many of those points that the Popish Romish Church now holds witnes the Epistle to the Romanes wherein diuers maine matters of her faith are recorded speaker D. B. P. To demonstrate vnto your Maiestie that we now hold in all poynts the very same Doctrine which the most approoued auncient Doctors and holy Fathers held and deliuered Because it is too long for an Epistle I reserue it to the booke it selfe for the poynts it handleth and will here briefly note out of it some such old reprooued errors that the Protestants doe reuiue receiue and auowe as the very sinnewes of their Gospell speaker A. W. The most approued ancient Doctors holy fathers were the Apostles with whom how you shew your agreement in the points this booke handles wee shall see in the particulars All other writers haue those properties in a farre inferiour degree from among whom if I would deale strictly with you I might pick the Fathers of the Greeke Churches and all those of the Latin that were not members of the Romane as it was a distinct Church from all other For so is the Romane Church conceiued and spoken of by his Maiestie But I will not presse you so hard though I may chance to put you in minde of it now and then All points that haue been reprooued by some of the ancient writers are not errors and many times the same words haue not the same meaning speaker D. B. P. Martin Luther the ring-leader of the new pretended reformation layeth for the ground-worke of his Religion That man is iustified by only saith and in this he is applauded and followed of all Protestants and yet as testifieth the most sound witnes of antiquitie S. Austin that only faith is sufficient to Saluation was an error sprung vp in the Apostles dayes against which the Catholike Epistles of S. Peter and S. Iames and S. Iohn were principally directed And the author of that error was that infamous Sorcerer Simon Magus as the blessed Martyr Ireneus hath recorded in his first booke against heresies speaker A. W. For the doctrine of iustification by faith onely I referre the reader to the article of iustification That we are vnlike the heretikes of whom S. Augustine speakes it may thus apâ—… The faith they so magnified was a dead faith The Apostle 〈◊〉 Austin in refutation of them speaks not of euery kind â—… by which we beleeue in God but of that wholesome and truly â—…angelicall faith the workes whereof proceede from loue And againe How long therefore will they be deceiued that promise themselues euerlasting life by a dead faith Besides they despised good workes as needles either before or after iustification They thought saith Augustine that Paul wild vs to doe euill that good might come of it But it was not the Apostles meaning saith he that by the professing and inioyning of faith good workes of righteousnes should be despised But that euery man might know that he may be iustified though he haue not done the workes of the Law before For they follow him that is iustified not goe before him that is to be iustified Yea Simon the Sorcerer doubted not blasphemously to affirme that the commandements of holy life were giuen by the Angels that made the world who thereby brought men into slaâ—â—rie Of whom Theodâ—ret saith that because men are saued by grace and faith therefore he gaue by all meanes 〈◊〉 to commit wickednes speaker A. W. An other principall piller of Fryer Luthers Religion conâ—… niall of free will wherein he iumpeth with the olde rotten 〈…〉 Manes of whom the Maniâ—d cans were named Manes so denied free will that he tooke away all assent of the will in mens daily sinnes making the necessitie of sinning naturall from the creation as proceeding from the euill god or beginning which he blasphemously and absurdly deuised He saith Augustine made two diuers beginnings each contrary to other and both eternall And from these two natures and substances of good and euill so that he ascribed the beginning of sinne not to the freedome of will but to the substance of the aduerse faction Yea so faire proceeded the Manichees that they affirmed saith the same Augustine that euery liuing creature had two soules one from light another from darknes Manes brought in fatall necessitie saith Socrates and tooke away free will We contrariwise acknowledge that there is but one God or author of all things created that he made vs in our kinde perfectly good That sinne came in first by freedome of will both in men and Angels and that by free will without any necessitie of constraint it is daily committed It appeares further to our comfort in that place of S. Hierome that the Catholikes or true Christians in his time were in like sort charged by the Pelagians with the Manichees error in denying free will because they would not confesse that a man may be without sinne if he will which is one point of difference betwixt vs and the Papists speaker D. B. P. One Proâ—lus an erronius
not the Virgin Mary in your seruice called the promise of the Prephets the Queene of the Patriarkes the schoolmistris of the Euangelists the teacher of the Apostles the comforter of the quick and the dead Who thâ—… saios deuoutly this short prayer daily saith the Rubrick shall not depart out of this world without penance and ministration of the holy Sacrament In another prayer in the same booke shee is called the most true schoolmistris of the Euangelists the most wise teacher of the Apostles The booke was printed at Paris by Francis Regnault 1526. What profound piercing into such naturall affection can exccuse these speeches what French phrase can warrant it But what should we striue about the forciblenes of her prayers when it is not nor can be prooued that she prayes at all speaker W. P. Therefore we haue good cause to blesse the name of God that hath freed vs from the yoke of this Roman bondage and hath brought vs to the true light and libertie of the Gospell And it should be a great height of vnthankfulnesse in vs not to stand ouer against the present Church of Rome but to yeelde ourselues to plots of reconciliation To this effect and purpose I haue penned this little Treatise which I present to your worship desiring it might be some token of a thankfull minde for vndeserued loue And I craue withall not onely your Worshipfull which is more common but also your learned protection being well assured that by skill and arte you are able to iustifie whatsoeuer I haue truelie taught Thus wishing to you and yours the continuance and the increase of faith and good conscience I take my leaue Cambridge Iune 28. 1597. Your W. in the Lord VVilliam Perkins Wherefore to conclude this Epistle if there be no waightier cause then this by you here produced vvhy you and your adherent doe not reconcile your selues vnto the Church of Rome you may shortly by Gods grace become nevv men for vve are so farre off from making our Sauiour Christ a Pseudochâ—â—st or from dravving one iote of excellencie from his soueraâ—gne povver merits or dignitie that vve in the very points by you put downe doe much more magnifie him then you doe For in maintaining the authority by him imparted vnto his deputies our spirituall Magistrates and of their merits and satisfaction We first say that these his seruants prerâ—… be his hee gifts of 〈…〉 grace bestovved on vvhom he pleaseth vvhich is no finall praise of his great liberality And vvithall affirme that there is an infinite difference betvveene his ovâ—ne povver merits and satisfaction and ours Wherein his soueraigne honour is preserued entire to himselfe vvithout any comparison Novv you make Christs authoritie so base his merits and satisfaction so meane that if he â—…part any degree of them vnto his seruants he looseth the honour of all from himselfe Whereupon it follow eth inuinciblie if you vnfeignedly seeke Christ Iesus his true honour and vvill esteeme of his diuine giftes vvorthelie you must hold out no longer but vnâ—te your selfe in these necessarie heades of Religion vnto the Catholike Church of Rome which so highly exalted him both in his owne excellencie and in his singular giftes to his subiects speaker A. W. The least of these is cause sufficient to withhold vs from ioyning with the Church of Rome at least in that point The Kings authoritie is not abased because he cannot communicate any of his royalties to his subiects That Christ must needes lose by it I shewed before for it argues an insufficiencie in his satisfaction speaker W. P. THE AVTHOR TO THE CHRISTIAN READER BY a Reformed Catholike I vnderstand any one that holds the same necessarie heades of religion with the Roman Church yet so as he pares off and reiects all errours in doctrine whereby the said religion is corrupted How this may be done I haue begun to make some little declaration in this small Treatise the intent whereof is to shew how neere we may come to the present church of Rome in sundrie points of religion and wherein we must for euer dissent My purpose in penning this small discourse is threefold The first is to confute all such Politikes as hold and maintaine that our religion that of the Roman Church differ not in substance and consequently that they may be reconciled yet my meaning is not here to condemne any Pacification that tends to perswade the Roman Church to our religion The second is that the Papists which thinke so basely of our religion may be won to a better liking of it when they shall see how neere we come vnto them in sundrie points The third that the common Protestant might in some part see conceiue the point of difference betweene vs and the Church of Rome and know in what manner and how farre forth we condemne the opinions of the said Church I craue pardon for the order which I vse in handling the seuer all points For I haue set them downe one by one as they came to minde not respecting the lawes of Method If any Papist shall say that I haue not alleadged their opinions aright I answere that their bookes be at hand and I can iustifie what I haue said Thus crauing thine acceptation for this my paines and wishing vnto thee the increase of knowledge and loue of pure and sound religion I take my leaue and make an ende speaker D. B. P. AN ANSWERE TO THE Preface VPON your preface to the Reader I will not stand because it toucheth no point of controuersie let it be declared in your next what you meane when you desire your reformed Catholike to hold the same necessarie heades of Religion with the Romane Church for if the Romane Church doth erre in the matter of faith and iustification in the number and vertue of the Sacraments in the bookes and interpretation of the word of God if she raze the foundation and make Christ a Pseudochrist and an Idoll to omitte twenty other eâ—rors in substantial points of faith as in this your small discourse you would perswade there will remaine verie few necessarie heades of Religion for them to agree in And be you well assured that you are so wide from winning Catholikes by this your worke to a better liking of your Religion that you haue taken the high way to lead them to a farre greater dislike of it by teaching that in so many materiall points it differeth so farre from theirs For all Catholikes hold for most assured that which the most auncient learned and holie Doctor Athanasius in his creede deliuereth in the 2. vers VVhich Catholike faith vnlesse euery man obserue wholy and inuiolably not omitting or shrinking from any one article of it vvithout doubt he shall perish euerlastingly If S. Basil that reuerent and blessed Father of the Church doth hold it the dutie of euerie good Christian rather to loose his life then to condescend to the alteration
they behaued themselues corruptly in their callings And so this maketh more against you then for you approouing the lavvfull officers of Rome to be Christs Ministers The second plaâ—e is alleadged out of him yet more impertinently your selfe confessing presently that those vvords vvere not spoken of the Pope but of his enemy The reason yet there set dovvne pleaseth you exceedingly vvhich you vouch so clearely that it seemeth to beare flat against you for you inferre that the Pope and all others since that time be vsurpers out of this reason of S. Bâ—â—nard Because forsooth that the Antipope called Innocentius vvas chosen by the King of Almaine France England c and their vvhole Clergie and people For if fnnocentius vvere an Antichrist and vsurper because he vvas elected by so many Kings and people then belike he that had no such election but is chosen by the Cardinals of Rome onely is true Pope This your vvords declare but your meaning as I take it is quite contrary But of this matter and manner of election shall be treated hereafter if need require It sufficieth for this present that you finde no reliefe at all in S. Bernard touching the maine point that either the Pope or Church of Rome is Antichrist And all the world might meruaile if out of so sweet a Doctor and so obedient vnto the Pope any such poison might be sucked specially weighing wel what he hath written vnto one of them to whom he speaketh thus Goe to let vs yet enquire more diligently who thou art and what person thou bearest in the Church of God during the time VVho art thou A great Priest the highest Bishop thou art the Prince of Bishops the heire of the Apostles and in dignitie Aaron in authoritie Moses in povver Peter thou art he to vvhom the Keyes were deliuered to vvhom the sheepe vvere committed There are indeede also other Porters of Heauen and Pastors of flockes but thou art so much the more glorious as thou hast inherited a more excellent name aboue them they haue their flockes allotted to them to each man one but to thee all were committed as one flocke to one man thou art not onely Pastor of the sheepe but of all other Pastors thou alone art the Pastor And much more to this purpose which being his cleere opinion of the Pope how absurd is it out of certaine blind places and broken sentences of his to gather that he thought the Pope of Rome to be neither sheepe nor Pastor of Christs Church but very Antichrist himselfe There is a grosse fault also in the Canon of Pope Nicolas as he citeth it that the Pope was to be created by the Cardinals Bishops of Rome As though there were some 30. or 40. Bishops at once but of the matter of election else where M. Perkins hauing lightly skirmished with a broken sentence or two out of one Catholike Authour flieth to a late hereâ—â—ke called Ioachim and quoteth Iewell for relator of it A worshipfull testimony of one heretike and that vpon the report of an other and he the most lying Authour of these daies As for the late Poet Petrarke his words might easilie be answered but because he quoteth no place I will not stand to answere it But to close vp this first combat a sentence is set downe out of the famous Martyr Ireneus that Antichrist should be Lateinos a Roman Here be as many faults as words That learned auncient Doctor discoursing of Antichrist his proper name out of these words of the Reuel the number of the beast is 666. And obseruing the letters of the Greeke Alphabet by which they doe number as wee doe by ciphers saith that among others the word Lateinos doth containe those letters which amount iust to the number of 666. and consequently that Antichrists proper name perhaps might be Lateinos but more likely it is to be Teitan as he saith there lastly that it is most vncertaine what his name shall be See the place gentle reader and learne to beware of such deceitefull merchants as make no conscience to corrupt the best Authours and being often warned of it will neuer learne to amend Jreneus leaueth it most doubtfull what shall be Antichrists name And among diuers words esteemeth Lateinos to be the vnlikeliest And yet M. Perkins reporteth him to say resolutely that his name shall be Lateinos and then to make vp the matter turneth Lateinos a proper name with S. Ireneus into Romane an appellatiue which noteth onely his country Fie vpon that cause which cannot be vpholden and maintained but by a number of such paltrie shirtes Thus come we at length to the end of M. Perkins proofes and reproofes in his prologue where we finding litle fidelitie in his allegations of the Fathers badde construction and foule ouersight in the text of holy Scripture briefely great malice but slender force against the Church of Rome we are to returne the words of his theame to all good Christians Goe out of her my people Forsake the enemies of the Romane Church And as our Ancestors did the Pagan Emperours who drew out her most pure blood so let vs file in matters of faith and Religion from all heretakes that of late also spared not to shedde abundance of the same most innocent blood vnlesse to your greater condemnation you had leifer be partakers of her sinnes and receiue of her plagues speaker A. W. They were the Ministers of Christ by their profession as the Pope calls himselfe the seruant of seruants though both he is in truth Antichrist and they his ministers M. Perkins reason out of Bernard lyeth thus He that gets into Peters chaire without the consent of the Princes Clergie and people of Christendome is the beast spoken of in the Apocalypse But all the Popes from that schisme hitherto haue so gotten into Peters chaire viz. with consent of the Cardinals onely Therefore all the Popes since that schisme are the beast in the Apocalypse The proposition is Bernards in effect though notin words for he pronounces the Pope to be the Beast in the Reuelation because he was not chosen by consent of the Princes Clergie and people of Almaine France England c. And this Master Perkins sets downe very plaine at these words And thus Bernard c. How wide then are you from his meaning who make the quite contrarie collection in his name For if Innocentius say you were Antichrist and an vsurper because he was chosen by so many Kings and people then belike he that had no such election but is chisen by the Cardinals of Rome onely is true Pope He concludes out of Bernard that he was Antichrist because he was not chosen by the Kings Clergie and people but onely by the Cardinals you that he was true Pope because he was not chosen by the Kings and but onely by the Cardinals The reason out of Bernard you answere not but shift off the matter with alleaging
a sentence of his in commendation of Pope Eugenius which is so full of flatterie that I say not impietie that it can carrie no credit with any modest Christian. It should seeme you saw so much your selfe and therefore craftily left out these absurd and vile speeches viz. Thou art Abel in primacie Noah in gouernment in Patriarkship Abraham in order Melchisedech in authoritie of iudging Samuel in vnction that is either in annoynting or in being annoynted Christ. If this be not a blinde sentence on Bernards part and a broken sentence on yours there is nothing but may abide the light be it neuer so false and be accounted whole be it neuer so mangled It is rather grosse ignorance in you to finde fault with that you vnderstand not Master Perkins neither saith nor meanes that there were many Bishops of Rome at once and yet there haue been three Popes together but according to the Canon cals the Cardinals Bishops of Rome referring this word of Rome not to Bishops simply but to Cardinall Bishops Now all Cardinals were Cardinals of Rome or of the Romish Church The Canon indeede puts not in those words of Rome but the sense is nothing altered by the adding of them For the cleere vnderstanding of the matter we are to know that all Cardinals are either Cardinall Bishops whom the Canon appoints first to consult about electing of the Pope or Cardinall Clerkes that is of some inferiour order of the Clergie the general name wherof is Clerke whether it be Priesthood Deaconship c and these must in the second place be called to the election Now let men iudge whether Master Perkins or you are in fault This Canon is brought to prooue the former proposition that he is no lawfull Pope who is chosen only by the Cardinals and not also by the consent of the rest of the Clergie and people If you had been as carefull to auoide slandering as that reuerend and learned writer was to take heede of vntruths you would neuer haue raised such a suspition of him in this point For the cleering of him let his owne desence against Master Hardings reproches speake For the present Roger Houeden who liued in that time records the historie and sets downe Ioachims words to King Richard That Antichrist was alreadie borne in the citie of Rome and that he should be exalted into the Apostolike seate But you except against Ioachim as an heretike so doth not Bellarmine but onely denies that he writ any such thing It is true that the Councell of Lateran vnder Pope Innocent the third condemned a certaine booke that Abbat Ioachim writ against Peter Lombard Bishop of Paris commonly called the Master of the Sentences concerning the vnitie or essence of the Trinitie but it did not reiect him as an heretike yea the Councell specially addes that they will not by their sentence any way derogate from the Abbey of Florence whereof he was the orderer as well because the orders in it were good as also for that he had submitted all his writings to the Apostolike see Therefore Iodocus Coccius makes him one of his Latin Doctors out of whom he confirmes your Popish doctrine And Trithemius saith that he was a man studious and exercised in the Scriptures and that he writ many things against the Iewes and other aduersaries of the Catholike faith Petrark one of the lights of his age for learning wrote about 250. yeeres since that Rome was become Babylon and not onely Babylon but false and wicked Babylon Further in the same place he calles her The fountaine of griefe the lodge of wrath the schoole of error the temple of heresie a shamelesse strumpet which hauing been founded in chastitie humilitie and pouertie hath lifted vp her hornes against her founders the Emperours In another place he calles her couetous Babylon that hath filled vp the measure of Gods wrath with impious and wicked vices so that it runnes ouer In a third he termes her impious Babylon from whom all shame is fled the lodge of griefe and mother of errors in whom there is no goodnes I set not down all he speakes against her somewhat I haue touched that I might see how easily you will answere his words but I thinke he that hath read Bellarmine of this point may gesse before hand what you can say in the matter Irenaeus as you truly say determines not what shall be Antichrists name and leanes more to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 than to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet neither doth he allow of that because a man as hee saith may with likelihood gather by many things that his name perhaps shall not be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he affirmes that it is very likely and giues his reason of it because the most true kingdome had that name Master Perkins expounded it not as a proper name but as an appellatiue because neither the Euangelist nor Irenaeus doe intend to shew Antichrists proper name but to make knowne the name of the Beast which Antichrist should make all take Now the Beast being the Romane or Latin state the name also must be sutable thereunto as wee see it is our Papists calling themselues Romane that is Latin Catholikes I will not fall into exhortation hereupon only I desire all men that haue care of their saluation to consider without preiudice whether it be not euident that the state of Rome whereof the Pope is head is the whore of Babylon prophecied of by S. Iohn Reuelat 17. speaker W. P. Againe this commandement must not so much be vnderstood of a bodily departure in respect of cohabitation and presence as of a spirituall separation in respect of faith and religion And the meaning of the holy Ghost is that men must depart from the Romish Church in regard of Iudgement and doctrine in regard of their faith and the worship of God Thus then we see that the words containe a commaundement from God inioyning his Church and people to make a separation from Babylon Whence I obserue That all those who will bee saued must depart and separate themselues from the faith and religion of this present church of Rome And whereas they are charged with schisme that separate on this manner the truth is they are not schismatiks that doe so because they haue the commandement of God for their warrant and that partie is the schismatike in whom the cause of this separation lieth and that is in the Church of Rome namely the cup of abomination in the whores hand which is their heretical and schismaticall religion speaker D. B. P. And because I purpose God willing not only to confute what M. Perkins bringeth against the Catholike doctrine but some what also in euerie Chapter to fortifie and confirme it I will here deliuer what some of the most auncient most learned
the purpose yet we may conclude out of the former part of the discourse as before Faith receiues in charitie doth not therefore they are not alwaies together The consequence is naught as if vertues of diuers effects could not be giuen by the spirit at one time and alwaies keepe together in the soule iustified and sanctified speaker D. B. P. Now Sir if they could not applie vnto themselues Christs righteousnes without fulfilling all duties of the first and second table they should neuer applie it to them for they hould it impossible to fulfill all those duties so that this necessarie linking of charity with faith maketh their saluation not only very euill assured but altogither impossible for charitie is the fulnes of the law which they hold impossible and then if the assurance of their saluation must needs be ioyned with such an impossibilitie they may assure themselues that by that faith they can neuer come to saluation speaker A. W. I will do the best I can to vnderstand and examine what you say in this discourse wherein me thinkes you would perswade vs that this linking of faith and charity together makes our saluation altogether impossible because it requires of vs the fulfilling of the law that we may thereby applie Christs righteousnes to our selues which we hold to be impossible Now vpon this impossibilitie it should follow in your opinion that we may assure our selues we can neuer come to saluation by this faith All the matter lies in this proposition that the ioyning of these vertues exacts the fulfilling of the law to applie Christ by which hath no kind of truth in it for first the hauing of charitie doth not bind vs to keepe the law but enables vs in some measure to that dutie which we were bound to before Secondlie it is not the lincking of these two that doth enable vs but the hauing of charitie that is of iustifying grace Lastlie though they come and stay together yet haue they as their seuerall natures and effects so their seuerall ends also faith seruing to obtaine iustification charity to cause a holy conuersation If I haue mistaken you it is against my willâ— if there be any thing else in it that may make for you or against vs let me know it and I will yeeld to it or answere it speaker D. B. P. Let vs annex vnto these plaine authorities of holy Scripture one euident testimonie of Antiquitie That most incorruptiâ—… S. Augustine saith flatly That faith may well be vvithout charitie but it cannot profile vs vvithout charitie And That one God is vvorshipped sometimes out of the Church but that vnskilfully yet is it he Also that one faith is had without charitie and that also out of the Church neither therfore is not faith For there is one God one Faith one Baptisme and one iâ—â—aculate Catholike Church in which God is not serued only but in which only he is truly serued neither in which alone faith is kept â—…n which only faith is kept with charitie So that faith and that only true faith of which the Apostle speaketh One God one faith may be and is an many without charitie speaker A. W. In the former place alleaged Augustine hath no such word and if he had the answere is easie that he speakes not of that faith wherby we trust in God for iustification but of that which is onelie an acknowledgement of the truth of Scripture In the later thus he writes As one God is worshipped ignorantly euen out of the Church neither therefore is not he so one faith is had without charity euen out of the Church neither therefore is not it For there is one God one faith one Baptisme one incorrupt Catholike Church not in which alone God is worshipped but in which alone one God is rightly worshipped nor in which alone one faith is held but in which alone one faith with charity is held nor in which alone one Baptisme is had but in which alone one Baptisme is healthfully had In which discourse any man may see that Austin speakes of such a faith as beleeues the truth of Scripture To which purpose a little before he shewed that the Diuels also had the same faith or at least beleeued the same things of Christ that we doe in the Church And this faith which is indeed the same the Apostle speakes of may be and is often without charitie And yet by your leaue a man may reasonablie doubt whether this assent to the Scripture be wrought by the spirit of God in euery one that professeth religion according to the truth of his perswasion and be not rather in many an opinion receiued from meÌ„ as for the most part amongst you Papists who rest vpon the authoritie of men vnder the name of the Church in this very point speaker D. B. P. The Protestants bold asseuerations that they cannot be parted are great but their proofes very slender and scarce worth the disprouing speaker A. W. It becomes a Christian to be bold in matters of faith especiallie when it is gaine-said What our proofes are it shall better be seene hereafter if it please God In the meane while how strong yours are set euery man iudge with indifferencie THAT FAITH MAY BE WITHOVT good Workes speaker D. B. P. THe first He that hath not care of his ovvne hath denied his faith therfore saith includeth that good vvorke of prouiding for our owne Ans. That faith there seemes to signifie not that faith whereby we beleeue all things reuealed or the Protestants the certainty of their saluation but for fidelity and faithfull performance of that which we haue promised in Baptiâ—me which is to keepe all Gods commandements one of the which is to prouide for our children and for them that we haue charge of so that he who hath no such care ouer his owne charge hath denied his faith that is violated his promise in Baptisme There is also another ordinary answere supposing faith to be taken there for the Christian beleefe to wit that one may deny his faith two waies either in flat denying any article of faith or by doing something that is contrary to the doctrine of our faith Now he that hath no care of his owne doth not deny any article of his faith but committeth a fact contrary to the doctrine of his faith so that not faith but the doctrine of faith or our promise in Baptisme includeth good workes speaker A. W. These reasons are such as to my best remembrance I neuer read in any Protestant to this purpose if you haue you should haue quoted the places But howsoeuer I thinke neither we nor you will be bound to maintaine all the arguments that haue been brought in all questions to proue the doctrines we seuerally hold If it had bin your purpose to deale throughly in this point you might haue found out better reasons then these though not better for your turne If
to the poore they pill them by fines and vnreasonable rents and by vsury and crafty bargaines are not ashamed to cousen their nearest kinne Finally in place of prayer and washing away their owne sins by many bitter teares they sing meerely a Geneua Psalme and raile or heare a railing at our imagined sinnes or pretended errors And so leaue and lay all paine and sorrow vpon Christs shoulders thinking themselues belike to be borne to pleasure and pastime and to make merry in this world speaker A. W. This spitefull and slanderous inuectiue of yours sauouring neither of conscience nor ciuilitie whereby you charge your soueraigne his counsailers nobles gentrie and all that any where in sinceritie professe the Gospell of Iesus Christ with flat Epicurisme I wittingly omit holding it more Christian like to be railed vpon without cause then to raile vpon desert We vse our libertie with moderation how you priests and Iesuits obserue that which feare of damnation hope of reward the lawes of your superiors and your owne vowes bind you to I had rather euery man should iudge according to his knowledge then suspect by my reporting of that which would not seeme very vnlikely The seuenth point Of Traditions speaker W. P. Traditions are doctrines deliuered from hand to hand either by word of mouth or by writing beside the written word of God Our consent Conclus I. Wee hold that the very worde of God hath beene deliuered by tradition For first God reuealed his will to Adam by word of mouth and renewed the same vnto the Patriarkes not by writing but by speech by dreames and other inspirations and thus the worde of God went from man to man for the space of two thousand and foure hundred yeeres vnto the time of Moses who was the first pen-man of holy scripture For as touching the prophesie of Enoch we commonly holde it was not penned by Enoch but by some Iew vnder his name And for the space of this time men worshipped God and helde the articles of their faith by tradition not from men but immediately from God himselfe And the historie of the new testament as some say for eightie yeeres as some others thinke for the space of twenty yeeres and more went from hand to hand by tradition till penned by the Apostles or being penned by others was approoued by them speaker D. B. P. Hitherto we agree but not in this which he interlaceth that in the state of nature euery man was instructed of God immediately in both matters of faith and religion For that God then as euer since vsed the ministerie aswell of good fathers as godly masters as Enoch Noe Abraham and such like to teach their children and seruants the true worship of God and true faith in him otherwise how should the word of God passe by Tradition from Adam to Moses as M. Perkins affirmeth If no child learned any such thing of his Father but was taught immediately from God but M. Perkins seemeth to regard lâ—â—tle such petty contradictions speaker A. W. If you were not more desirous to pick quarrels then to acknowledge truth you would neuer faine such contradictions Master Perkins sayes no such thing as you charge him with but speakes only of the Patriarks by whose ministerie the rest were taught as he shewes otherwhere making it an argument to perswade housholders to the like dutie speaker W. P. Conclus II. We hold that the Prophets our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles spake and did many things good and true which were not written in the Scriptures but either came to vs or to our ancetours onely by tradition As 2. Tim. 3. 20. it is said that Iannes and Iambres were the Magitians that withstood Moses now in the books of the olde testament wee shall not finde them once named and therefore it is like that the Apostle had their names by tradition or by some writings then extant among the Iewes So Hebr. 12. 21. the author of the Epistle recordeth of Moses that when he saw a terrible sight in Mount Sinai he said I tremble and am afraide which words are not to be found in all the bookes of the old testament In the Epistle of Iude mention is made that the Diuell stroue with Michael the Archangell about the bodie of Moses which point as also the former considering it is not to be found in holy writ it seemes the Apostle had it by tradition from the Iewes That the Prophet Esai was killed with a fullers clubbe is receiued for truth but yet not recorded in Scripture and so likewise that the Virgin Mary liued and died a virgin And in Ecclesiasticall writers many worthy sayings of the Apostles and other holy men are recorded and receiued of vs for truth which neuerthelesse are not set downe in the bookes of the olde or new Testament And many things wee holde for truth not written in the worde if they bee not against the word speaker D. B. P. His 2. Conclus We hold that the Prophets our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles spake and did many things good and true which were not written in the Scriptures but came to vs by Tradition but these were not necessary to be beleeued For one example he puts that the blessed Virgin Marie liued and died a Virgin but it is necessary to saluation to beleeue this for Heluidius is esteemed by S. Augustine an Heretike for denying it speaker A. W. Master Perkins saith nothing of the necessitie of beleeuing That point of the virgin Maries perpetuall virginitie we hold to be true but we dare not lay a burthen vpon any mans conscience where the scripture is silent S. Austins iudgement though he were a singular light of the Church is not of waight inough to determine without all warrant of scripture what is heresie and what is not especially since himselfe confesseth that it cannot at all or very hardly be declared by a lawfull definition what makes a man an heretike Besides Austin thus deliuers the matter concerning the Heluidians heresie The Heluidians saith he so gaine said the virginitie of Mary that they confidentlie affirme she had other children after Christ by her husband Ioseph So that it may well be Austin counted them heretikes especially for auouching that peremptorily which they could no way make good by scripture speaker W. P. Conclus III. We hold that the Church of God hath power to prescribe ordinances rules or traditions touching time and place of Gods worship and touching order and comelines to bee vsed in the same and in this regard Paul 1. Cor. 11. 2. commendeth the Church of Corinth for keeping his traditions and Act. 15. the Counceil at lerusalem decreed that the Churches of the Gentiles should abstaine from blood and from things strangled This decree is tearmed a tradition and it was in force among them so long as the offence of the Iewes remained And this kinde of traditions whether made by generall Councels or particular Synods
man conclude the point out of them and we will yeeld if wee shew not a reasonable cause to the contrarie Secondly I adde fuâ—thâ—r that if it were granted that there were some such traditiâ—…s â—â—et as Austin saith of the first place who can say these or those be they For the most part of the traditions that are now thrust vpon the Church by you Papists are in comparison but new and very trifles or meere superstitious speaker D. B. P. Our Sauiour said being at the point of his passion That he had manie things to say vnto his Apostles but they could not as then beare them Our Sauiour after his resurrection appeared often vnto his Disciples speaking vvith them of the kingdome of God of vvhich little is vvritten in any of the Euangelists I commend you brethren that you remember me in all things and keepe the Traditions euen as I haue deliuered them to you speaker A. W. Now for the particulars the first is answered alreadie the second makes a bad consequence Christ spake often with his Disciples of the kingdome of God of which little is written in the Euangelists therfore there are some points necessarie to saluation not recorded in Scripture His talke with them might be for exhortation and consolation especially Who can say whatsoeuer it were that it is not written in the Epistles By traditions Ambrose vnderstands in the 2. Thessal nothing but the Gospell in that place to the Corinthians the Apostle seemes in all likelihood to speake of ceremonies or circumstances in their carriage about Gods seruice which neither is matter of saluation nor to be alwaies alike in all places and at al times So doth Ambrose vnderstand him speaker D. B. P. O Timothy keepe the depositum that is that vvhich I deliuered thee to keepe Hold fast by the holy Ghost the good things committed vnto thee to 〈◊〉 vvhich vvas as S. Chrysostom and Thesphilact expound the true doctrine of Christ the true sense of holy Scriptures the right admini words be not set downe in Scripture yet the matter is if not expresly which is not needfull yet by necessarie consequence as it may euidently appeare by the Councill and Fathers wherein and by whom the contrarie to those opinions is condemned and confuted The first point is implied necessarily in all those places by which our Sauiour is prooued to be true God that is the same God with his Father which you shall finde in Athanasius writings and the first Councill of Nice The second of the holy Ghosts proceedings from the Sonne as well as from the Father is prooued by Thomas out of the Scripture and by other against the Greeke Church The third beside that place of Iohn is necessarily concluded since there can be but one God out of the texts that prooue euery one of them seuerally to be God and by that of Matthew The fourth is prooued out of Scripture by the first Councill of Ephesus against Nestorius so that for these points we neede no traditions speaker W. P. Obiect VI. Sundrie places of Scripture be doubtfull and euery religion hath his seuerall exposition of them as the Papists haue theirs and the Protestants theirs Now then seeing there can be but one truth when question is of the interpretation of Scripture recourse must be had to the tradition of the Church that the true sense may be determined and the question ended Ans. It is not so but in doubtfull places Scripture it selfe is sufficient to declare his owne meaning first by the analogie of faith which is the summe of religion gathered out of the clearest places of Scripture secondly by the circumstances of the place and the nature and signification of the wordes thirdly by conference of place with place By these and like helps contained in Scripture wee may iudge which is the truest meaning of any place Scripture it selfe is the text and the best glosse And the Scripture is falsly tearmed the matter of strife it beeing not so of it selfe but by the abuse of man And thus much for our consent concerning Traditions wherein we must not be wauering but steadfast because notwithstanding our renouncing of Poperie yet Popish inclinations and dispositions bee rife among vs. Our common people maruelouslie affect humane traditions yea mans nature is inclined more to bee pleased with them then with the word of God The feast of the natiuitie of our Sauiour Christ is onely a custome and tradition of the Church and yet men are commonly more carefull to keepe it then the Lords day the keeping whereof stands by the morall law Positiue lawes are not sufficient to restraine vs from buying and selling on the Sabbath yet within the twelue daies no man keepes market Againe see the truth of this in our affection to the ministerie of the word let the Preacher alleage Peter and Paul the people count it but common stuffe such as any man can bring but let men come and alleadge Ambrose Austin and the rest of the fathers oh he is the man hee is alone for them Againe let any man bee in danger any way and straight hee sendeth to the wise man or wizzard Gods worde is not sufficient to comfort and direct him All this argues that Poperie denied with the mouth abides still in the heart and therefore wee must learne to reuerence the written word by ascribing vnto it all manner of perfection speaker D. B. P. The sixt and last reason for Traditions Sundry places of holy Scriptures be hard to be vnderstood others doubtfull whether they must be taken literally or figuratiuely If then it be put to euery Christian to take his owne exposition euery seuerall sect will coyne interpretations in fauour of their owne opinions and so shall the word of God ordained only to teach vs the truth be abused and made an Instrument to confirme all errors To auoid which inconuenience considerate men haue recourse vnto the Traditions and auncient Records of the Primitiue Church receiued from the Apostles and deliuered to the posteritie as the true copies of Gods word see the true Exposition and sense of it and thereby consute and reiect all priuate and new glosses which agree not with those ancient and holy Commentaries So that for the vnderstanding of both difficult and doubtfull texts of Scripture Traditions are most necessary M. Perkins his answere is that there is no such need of them but in doubtfull places the Scripture it selfe is the best glosse If these be obserued first the analogie of faith which is the summe of religion gathered out of the cleerest places Secondly the circumstance of the place and the nature and signification of the words Thirdly the conference of place with place and concludeth that the Scripture is falsely tearmed the matter of strife it being not so of it selfe but by the abuse of man speaker A. W. First this reason can conclude nothing against our
corners sett ng vp and firmely â—stabl shing the Roman Thâ—re can bâ—e no cause aleadged why your Maiestie may not doe the like iâ—â—t shall please God effectuallie to stirre vp your gratious miâ—â—e and 〈◊〉 bend your hart to vndertake it for at that time there was more likelyhoode of resistance then now and noâ— much more helpe at hand if any resistance should be offered speaker A. W. If all you haue said were prooued as it is not there are yet many more monstrous abominations in the Romish superstition at no hand to be approoued or tolerated speaker D. B. P. Pardon me deere Soueraigne if before I finish this argument I seeme ouer-bold here to present vnto your memory that all your most gracious and Godly Progenitors and all our holy Predecessors who now assuredly stande before the tribunall of God doe demaund and expect no lesse at your handes For th y founded not Bishopâ—icks Deanerâ—es and other sp rituall â—â—inges thâ—y builded not Colleges and Schooles for Protestants or their â—…s Ponder well therâ—fore I beseech your Maiestie whether they doe not or may not iustly chalenge of you to whom the administration of iustâ—â— belongeth to see and prouiâ—e that such Churches Church-â—â—ingâ— and spirituall rewarde of learning as they erected and bequeathed to Roman Fishops and Priestes be disposed of and bestowed according to their erections and foundations If it shall please the Protestants to erect any new Churches o bestow any other reuenues towardes their ministers mayntenance let them haue them hardly and enioy them quietly onlie let â—hem be content out of their equitie to leaue vs that which was prouided for vs and bequeathed vnto vs by our most Religious Auncestors speaker A. W. Colledges and liuings were giuen and founded for the increase of religion and learning for both which they are still continued If they by iniurie of the time in ignorance mistooke the truth it is no wrong to keepe their generall purpose with amendment of their particular error if there be any merit in these actions as you teach they are much beholden to those Princes who make their deedes truly meritorious by the right vse of them speaker D. B. P. If all these reasons and exceeding manie other which might be mu stered and produced to the same purpose will not suffice to effect in your Maiestie a loue and desire to embrace that auncient Roman fâ—… which all your Renowned Progenitors so highly reuerenced loued and esteemed Yet let me prostrate on my knee most humblie beseech your highnes in the name of thowsandes that so farre forth they may preuaile with you as you will not permitte those rigorous lawes framed against recusant Catholikes to bee put in practize and executed For how can it seeme comfortable to reason in your Maiesties deepe wisedome and iudgement that your louing Subiects should by compulsion and constrainte vnder that intollerable penaltie of losse of all their goodes conforme themselues to such articles of Religion that by the purest antiquitie were censured to be erronious and execrable And what misery and pitty were it to driue them perforce either to swallow downe the deadly poyson of their soules or else to endure besides the disgrace of the state the losse of their worldly wealth and liberty Consider and weigh with your selfe â—y most gratious Liege whether it will not be thought ouer great seuerity to presse men euen against humane nature and condition with patience to heare their owne profession and beleefe both vntruely slaundered and most bitterly reuiled inueighed against as in most Ministers sermons it is commonly Yea to giue patient eare to them that blush not publikely to call our blessed Sauiours body in the holy Sacrament an abhominable Idole his glorious and immortall Saintes senseles dead Men his Vicar and Vicegerent on earth Antichrist and euery Catholike an Idolater With infinit other intollerable reproches Our constant hope euen yet though against hope is that your Maiestie out of your owne sweete naturall disposition and most milde carriage in gouernment hitherto will not onely moderate but suspende all such extreamitie And not suffer it to be extended against them who in former doubtfull times were in manner the only men that defended and made manifest to the world your Title and interest to the Crowne of England and were no lesse willing to receiue you when the time came and as forward to haue assisted you if need had required as any sort of Subiects within the land And neuer since wâ—…ingly offended your sacred Maiestie in any thing It may be obiected that they doe not conforme themselues vnto a statute lawe made against their Religion Be it so Then their Religion toward God not any contempt of their lawfull Superiour doth commaund them from the conformity which is pardonable Considering that they be no inuenters or followeâ—s of nouelties but onely hold on and perseuer in the â—aith of their forefathers And what subiect is there among the most dutifull that doth not often transgresse and giue offence to one statute law or other yet for no other law men are so hardly dealt withall albeit they violate many of them together Onely Caâ—holikes are for the traâ—…ressing of one huâ—peled and handled as though they were some haynous rebbels and trayâ—ors Who be it spoken without disparagement to others are by them that liue neare them esteemed coâ—…monly the most orderly subiects as true of their wordes aâ—â—â—und in their deedes of as great charitie and hospitalitie towardes their neighbours and compassion of the poore briefly of as moderate and câ—…le carriage and behauiour as moâ—… men in their Countrie So that to begger and vndoe them as the execution of that lawe established must needes doe the poorer sort of them would bee little lesse then to vndoe and destroy all good order and Discipline in the common weale speaker A. W. It is required by God at the Princes hands to see that all his subiects performe true worship to the true God how then can his Maiestie suffer thousands as you say to defile the land and dishonour God by such a seruice as he knowes to be idolatrous For the punishment and reason of it I referre all men to Master Powels answere lately published speaker D. B. P. Before I make an end I beseech your Maiestie that the old worthie saying of Cassian may be diligently examined Cuâ— boâ—um For whose commoditie to what end and purpose must such numbers of most ciuill subiects be so grieuously molested What is the cause why your peaceable and ioyfull gouernment should be so mingled with such bitter stormes of persecution Is it to extinguish the Catholike faith It â—…eth not in mans power to suppresse and destroy that which the Almightie supporteth and maintaineth The gates of â—â—ll shall not preuâ—…e against the Catholike Church And let but those graue and wise counsailers who haue managed the state in our late Queenes daies enforme your Maiestie vvhether all those terrible persecutions
that then vvere most vehemently pursued did any vvhit at all diminish the number of Recusants or rather did not greatly multiplie and encrease them from one at the first to an hundred and moe in continuance But it may be they entend by those penall lavves to enrich your Maiestie and to fill your coffers Surely the receits vvill fall our much too short to gâ—ovv to any such reckoning And vvhat delight to enâ—ich your treasurie and stuffe your coffers vvith regrets and outcries of the husband vvife children vvidovves and poore infants vvhen as the best and most assured treasurie of a King is by the prudent esteemed to consist in the loue and heartie affection of his people Or are these penall lavves and forfeitures ordained for revvards vnto such dependents as for these or the like doe follovv you But the reuenues preferments and offices belonging to your Crovvne of England are abundantly able to content and revvard them that shall deserue vvell of the common-vvealâ— vvithout that so heauie agrieâ—ance and heart bleeding of others your Maiesties good subiects And your Maiesties high vvisedome and long experience in gouernment can best remember you that such men are not so mindfull of benefits receiued as the daily vvant and miserie vvill continually renue and reuiue the memorie of the oppressed And vvhen they shall see no hope of remedie the state being novv setled and a continuall posteritie like to ensue of one nature and condition God knovveth vvhat that forcible vveapon of necessirie may constraine and driue men vnto aâ— length speaker A. W. Doe you accuse his Maiestie of desiring to extinguish the Catholike faith or doe you dallie with him by this question The gates of hell are set open to all men by your catholike faith so that the diuell will neuer seeke to preuaile against it Either the generall opinion of all men and the bragges of your owne side are very vaine and false or else for one Papist in her Maiesties daies and gouernment there are three now at the least vpon the very hope of toleration These are matters of estate vndutifully propounding to the Popes vassals occasion of heartburning against their Soueraigne to a worse purpose It is not lawfull for Christians saith your Cardinall Bellarmine to endure a King that is an heretike if he attempt to draw his subiects to his heresie speaker D. B. P. If then there be no greater reason of vveight and moment vvhy such dutifull and vvell deseruing Subiects should be so grieuously afflicted for their conscience let others conceiue as they shall please I vvill neuer suffer my selfe to be persvvaded that your Maiestie vvill euer permit it before I see it done If it be further obiected vvhy should not your Maiestie asvvell punish Catholikes in your Kingdomes as Catholikes doe Protestants in some other Countries I ansvvere that in all Countries vvhere multitudes of both sorts are mixed as it is in England The Protestants are tolerated as in France Polonia Bohemia the Catholike States of Germanie and Caâ—tounes according to that of the Gospell Suffer both the wheate and coâ—kle to grow vntill haruest In Spaine and Italie where sâ—arse any Protestants be the case is otherwise But vvhat is that to England vvhere are very many Catholike Recusants and Catholikely affected in euery degree not onely of the Temporaltie but in the Clergie also hardly of the highest degrees of honour to be excepted therefore for their number and qualitie to be tolerated speaker A. W. There is great reason to beare with Protestants in any countrie because there is no apparant shew of Idolatrie in their seruing of God nor any forraine power vpon whom they must depend but Papists are euen outwardly also Idolaters and vpon paine of damnation must obey the Popes definitiue sentence who cannot erre in seate of iudgment against all the Princes in Christendome speaker D. B. P. Lastly if there were no other cause but the innumerable benefits which euery degree and order of men throughout England haue and do daily receiue from our most Catholike ancestors as the constituting of so many holesome lawes founding of so many honourable and rich rewards of learning as Bishopricks Cathedrall Churches Deaneries Arch-deaconries Residencies Prebends and Benefices the erecting and building of so goodly Schooles Colledges and Hospitals and endowing of them with so ample possessions which all proceeded out of the bowels of the true wisedome pietie and vertue of their Catholike Religion Is not this much more then a sufficient motiue why their heires in faith should be most benignely and louingly dealt with and not for the profession of the same Religion so seuerely afflicted Let the Protestants in those countries where they are most molested appeare and shew that their predecessors in beliefe haue been so beneficiall vnto the publike weale and I dare vndertake that for their Ancestors sake they shall finde much more fauour then we sue for Wherefore they can haue no iust cause to repine at your Maiesties goodnes if vpon men of that Religion which hath been so beneficiall vnto your whole Realme you take extraordinary compassion speaker A. W. This makes against you rather than for you For the strengthening of the Popish Clergie hath alwaies been the weakening of the Prince and the establishing of the Popes absolutenes aboue the authoritie of the Magistrate Therefore that the zeale of our ancestors may not become againe dangerous to our state it is not onely meete but necessarie also to keepe out popish persons and opinions speaker D. B. P. It lying then in your Maiesties free choise and election whether you will enlarge and extend your Royall fauour vnto an infinite number of your most dutifull and affectionate Subiects who are the most vnwilling in the world to transgresse any one of your lawes were they not thereunto compelled by the law of God or else vtterly to begger and to vndoe both them and theirs for their constant profession of the ancient Romane faith My confidence in the sweete prouidence of the Almightie is that he will mercifully incline your Royall heart to chuse rather to pardon then to punish because the way of mercie consorteth better with your kinde and tender nature it is of better assurance to continue your peaceable and prosperous Raigne it will purchase mercie at Gods hands according to his owne promise Blessed be the mercifull for they shall obtaine mercie I neede not adde what a consolation and comfort it will be to many score thousands of your subiects and the greatest obligation that can be deuised to binde them to you and yours for euer Now what applause and congratulation from forraine Catholike countries would follow this your famous fact Vndoubtedly all the glorious companie of Kings and Queenes now in heauen of whom you are lineally descended and among all the rest namely your most sacred and deare Mother that endured so much for her constancie in the same Catholike faith cannot but
take it most kindly if for God and their sakes you take into your Princely protection their followers in the Romane faith and de fend them from oppression Thus most humbly crauing pardon of your Highnes if I haue in any thing exceeded the limits of my bounden dutie I beseech your blessed Sauiour to endue you both with the true knowledge of his diuine veritie and with the spirit of Fortitude to embrace and defend it constantly or at the least gratiously to tolerate and permit it Your most excellent Maiesties most obedient and loyall subiect and seruant W. B. speaker A. W. What course will best please God in this difference of profession not humane policie but diuine truth must determine In which if we sincerely obey God we shall not need to depend vpon the liking or misliking either of forraine countries or Kings and Queenes departed who either are no Saints of God if they loue popish Idolatrie or if they be Saints loue it not speaker D. B. P. THE PREFACE TO THE READER GEntle Reader I meane not here to entertayne thee with many wordes the principall cause that moued me to write was the honour and glorie of God in defence of his sacred verity then the imploying of his talent bestowed vpon me as well to sortifie the weaker sort of Catholikes in their faith as to call backe and leade other who wander vp and downe like to lost sheepe after their owne fancies into the right way The like reasons haue drawne me to this suruey of your reformation with a resolute purpose to acknowledge any truth that you shall shew me though it be against the iudgment of all the Churches in Christendome I tooke in hand particularly the confutation of this booke not onely for that I vvas thereunto requested by a friend of good intelligence and iudgement who thought it very expedient but also because perusing of it I found it penned more Schollerlike then the Protestants vse to doe ordinariely For first the pointes in controuersie are set downe distâ—â—ctly and for the most part truely Afterward in confirmation of their opinion the chiefe arguments are produced from both Scriptures Fathers and reason Which are not vulgar but called out of their Rabbins Luther Peter Maâ—tir Caluin Kemnitius and such like though he name them not Lastly he placeth some obiections made in fauour of the Catholike doctrine and answereth to them as well as he could And which J speake to his commendation doth performe all this very briefely and clearely So that to speake my oâ—iâ—â—on freely I haue not seene any booke of like quantitie published by a Protestant to containe either more matter or deliuered in better method And consequently more apt to deceiue the simple especially considering that he withal counterfeiteth to come as neere vnto the Romane Church as his tender conscience will permitte him whereas indeede he walketh as wide from it as any other noueller of this age speaker A. W. If the writings of Protestants haue bin lesse scholerlike than in the handling of controuersies it were fit they should haue bin whose fault is it but the Papists whom they haue bin forced to answere in their owne kinde It is not vnknowne to any of our English Rhemists or Romanists that Doctor Fulke long since desired to haue the matter brought to an issue and tried by syllogismes the very iudgement seate of true reason If you had knowne Master Perkins life as well as you see his learning you would neuer haue accused him of counterfeiting whereof also me thinkes he may easily be acquited by that cleerenes which you discerne and acknowledge in him speaker D. B. P. Wherefore I esteemed my spare time best imployed about the discouering of it being as it vvere an abridgement of the principall controuersies of these times and doe endeuour after the same Scholasticall manner vvithout all superfluity of vvordes no lesse to maintaine and defend the Catholike party then to confute all such reasons as are by M. Perkins alleadged for the contrarie Reade this short treatise good Christian diligently for thou shalt finde in it the marrovv and pith of many large volumes contracted and drawne into a narrovv revvme And read it ouer as it becommeth a good Christian with a desire to finde out and to follovv the truth because it concerneth thy eternall saluation and then iudge vvithout partiality vvhether Religion hath better groundes in Gods vvord more euident testimonie from the purest antiquitie and is more conformable vnto all Godlines good life and vpright dealing the infallible markes of the best Religion and speedely imbrace that Before I end this short preface I must intreate thy patience to beare vvith the â—aultes in Printing vvhich are too too many but not so much to be blamed if it be courteously considered that it vvas Printed farre from the Authour vvith a Dutch composer and ouerseene by an vnskilfull Corrector the greatest of them shall be amended in the end of the booke speaker A. W. I will endeuour the like or greater shortnes and plainnes if I can desiring nothing more of the Christian reader than to remember that hee is to seeke the truth without partialitie The place to seeke it in is the Scripture the meanes to find it the right vse of true reason He that hunts for it in mens writings either findes it not at all or at the least hath no certaine knowledge that he hath found it He that will trust other mens words rather than his owne eyes deserues in reason to be deceiued speaker D. B. P. Before the Printing of this part was finished I heard that M. Perkins was dead I am sorrie that it commeth forth to late to doe him anie good Yet his worke liuing to poison others a preseruatiue against it is neuerthelesse necessarie speaker A. W. It would haue done Master Perkins good to see by experience how vaine it is for men to striue against God for the Pope but it would haue been little to your aduantage to haue had such an aduersarie speaker W. P. TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFVLL SIR WILLIAM BOWES Knight c. Grace and peace RIght Worshipfull it is a notable policy of the diuell which he hath put into the heads of sundry men in this age to thinke that our religion and the religion of the present Church of Rome are all one for substance and that they may be reunited as in their opinion they were before Writings to this effect are spread abroad in the French tongue and respected of English Protestants more then is meete or ought to be For let men in shew of moderation pretend the peace and good estate of the Catholike Church as long as they will this Vnion of the two religions can neuer be made more then the vnion of light and darkenes speaker D. B. P. MAISTER PERKINS IN THE Epistle Dedicatorie It is a policie of the diuell to thinke that our Religion and the Religion of the present Church of Rome are all one in
we haue care to maintaine and obserue these caueats being remembred first that they prescribe nothing childish or absurd to be done speaker D. B. P. See what a â—…erent opinion this man carrieth of the Church of God gouerned by his holy spirit that it neuerthelesse may prescribe things both childish and absurd But I must pardon him because he speaketh of his owne Synagogue which is no part of the true Church speaker A. W. Hee that obserues what your Romish synagogue hath brought into Gods seruice and remembers that the Church that is men which beare sway in it may fondly erre will acknowledge this caueat most needfull No stage-play is so full of fooleries as your Masse-game speaker W. P. Secondly that they bee not imposed as any parts of Gods worship speaker D. B. P. This is contrary to the conclusion for order and comlinesse to be vsed in Gods worship which the Church can prescribe is some part of the worship speaker A. W. Order and comelinesse are no parts of Gods worship but adiuncts seruing to the better performance thereof as the obseruation of due and fit circumstances giue a grace and furtherance to any action whatsoeuer speaker W. P. Thirdly that they be seuered from superstition or opinion of merit speaker D. B. P. This is needlesse for if it be not absurd which was the first prouiso it is already seneted from superstition speaker A. W. That is absurd which is contrarie to common reason or sense but all things superstitious are not so yea many points of superstition haue so much shew of reason for them that without Gods commandement to the contrarie a wise man might thinke them very fit meanes of Gods worship and meritorious Such was the Gentiles worshipping of Angels supposing they had worshipped none but God such is your worshipping of Angels and he saincts and she saincts now adayes such is your feare of displeasing God if you eate flesh on saincts eauens or in Lent and such like speaker W. P. Lastly that the Church of God be not burdened with the multitude of them And thus much wee hold touching Traditions speaker D. B. P. The fourth touching multitude may passe these be but meere trifles That is of more importance that he tearmeth the decree registred in the 15. of the Actes of the Apostles a Tradition whereas before he defined Traditions to be all doctrine deliuered besides the written word Now the Actes of the Apostles is a parcell of the written word as all the world knovves That then vvhich is of record there cannot be tearmed a Tradition Though the Acts of the Apostles be a part of the written word yet was not the booke written when that decree was first obserued neither doth Master Perkins giue it the name of himselfe but saith it is tearmed a tradition The difference speaker W. P. Papists teach that beside the written worde there be certaine vnwritten traditions which must bee beleeued as profitable and necessarie to saluation And these they say are twofold Apostolicall namely such as were deliuered by the Apostles and not written and Ecclesiasticall which the Church decreeth as occasion is offered Wee hold that the Scriptures are most perfect containing in them all doctrines needfull to saluation whether they concerne faith or manners and therefore we acknowledge no such traditions beside the written worde which shall bee necessarie to saluation so as hee which beleeueth them not cannot be saued speaker D. B. P. Before we come to the Protestants reasons against Traditions obserue that we deuide Traditions into three sorts The first we rearme Diuine because they were deliuered by our blessed Sauiour who is God Thesecond Apostolicall as deliuered by the holy Apostles The third Ecclesiasticall instituted and deliuered by the Gouernors of the Curch after the Apostles daies And of these three kinds of Traditions we make the same account as of the writings of the same Authors to wit we esteeme no lesse of our Sauiours Traditions than of thefoure Gospels or any thing immediatly dictated from the holy Ghost Likewise as much honor and credit doe we giue vnto the Apostles doctrine vnwritten as written For incke and paper brought no new holines nor gaue any force and vertue vnto either Gods or the Apostles words but they were of the same value and credit vttered by word of mouth as if they had been written Here the question is principally of diuine Traditions which we hold to be necessary to saluation to resolue and determine many matters of greater difficulty For we deny not but that some such principall points of our Faith which the simple are bound to beleeue vnder paine of damnation may be gathered out of the holy Scriptures as for example that God is the Creator of the world Christ the Redeemer of the world the Holy Ghost the Sanctifier and other such like Articles of the Creed speaker A. W. Diuine traditions are such as were deliuered by our Sauiour say you and are diuers from those that the Apostles left So that the controuersie is principally of those matters that Christ only spake and neither the Euangelists nor Apostles haue set downe in writing But that we may vnderstand what wee doe it is further to be knowne that the question is not whether if there be any such traditions wee are bound to beleeue them for that is out of all doubt but whether there be any such or no or whether the Scriptures doe not containe sufficient direction for the determining of al matters of importance to saluation and for the substance of religion You that you may discredit the Scriptures to aduance traditions doe not so much as acknowledge that the maine grounds of doctrine are there plainly taught but mince the matter with your some such principall points and may be gathered out of the holy Scripture whereas not onely those two you name but if not all yet many more are manifestly therein declared Our reasons speaker W. P. Testimonie I. Deutr. 4. 2. Thou shalt not adde to the words that I commande thee nor take anything therefrom therefore the written worde is sufficient for all doctrines pertaining to saluation If it bee said that this commandement is spoken as well of the vnwritten as of the written word I answere that Moses speaketh of the written word onely for these very words are a certaine preface which hee set before a long commentarie made of the written lawe for this ende to make the people more attentiue and obedient speaker D. B. P. Let the words be set where you will they must not be wrested beyond their proper signification The words cited signifie no more then that we must not either by addition or subtraction chaunge or peruert Gods commaundements whether they be written or vnwritten speaker A. W. To interpret this place of vnwritten traditions is to strengthen the Iewes error and to voide our Sauiours reproofe And if there were any such though the particulars were
that lookes into your Commentaries and bookes of controuersies shall finde very diuers and sometimes contrarie expositions Our Sauiour Christ hath prouided sufficientlie for his Church by deliuering in scripture the grounds of religion so plainely some here some there that any reasonable man may with small labour vnderstand them from which they that haue knowledge of the tongues and arts especiallie of Logick and Rhetorick may come to vnderstand the harder places though perhaps not euery one yet at the least so many and such as shall serue to instruct the people of God in the knowledge of his will for the obtaining of euerlasting life speaker D. B. P. To auoid then such garboyles and intestine contention there vvas neuer yet any Law-maker so simple but appointed some gouernour and Iudge who should see the due obseruation of his Lawes and determine all boubts that might arise about the letter and exposition of the Law who is therefore called the quicke and liuely law and shall we Christians thinke that our diuine Lavv-maker who in vvisdome care and prouidence surmounted all others more than the heauens doe the earth hath left his golden Lawes at randome to be interpreted as it should seeme best vnto euery one pretending some hidden knovvledge from we knovv not vvhat spirit no no It cannot be once imagined vvithout too too great derogation vnto the soueraigne prudence of the Son of God speaker A. W. For the auoiding of outward garboiles by force or preaching false doctrine our Sauiour hath appointed principallie the ciuill magistrate secondarily the gouernors of the Churches For the keeping of his children from perishing by error he hath ordeined beside the outward helps of Pastors and Doctors the most certaine direction of his vicegerent the holy spirit who preserues all that are Christs from falling away from the substance and foundation of truth to damnation Not that euery man may take vpon him to interpret scripture vpon pretence of I know not what spirit but that he may assure himselfe of being kept from all error that may ouerthrow his saluation by the direction of Gods spirit vpon whom he calls by prayer and rests by faith to this purpose as I said before sure and who therefore were appointed to be heard without exception This befals not any men nowadayes and therefore none can iustly claime any such credit The auncients that so wrot in this point of S. Pauls going to see Peter haue wholie mistaken the Apostle who denies that of himselfe which they affirme of him For he saith First that he was not an Apostle of men nor by man Secondly that he went vp to Ierusalem not to haue confirmation of his doctrine from them who were no way superior to him but that the Gentiles might know he taught the same things that the other Apostles did If he had done it for his owne assurance he had not beleeued the vision and discredited our Sauiours extraordinarie teaching of him and had taught for a time such things as he was not sure to be the truth of God But if this should be his case he had sinned grieuously in his former preaching and he had wholie ouerthrowne the authoritie of his ministrie which in these two Chapters he labors especially to vphold auouching that he neither learned any doctrine nor receiued any allowance of his authoritie from Iames Cephas and Iohn which were esteemed to be pillers yea he did openly reprooue Peter if not of error in doctrine yet of misbehauiour in his conuersation As for the controuersie of abrogating Moses law it was a case determined by scripture and no man might refuse to obey any one of the Apostles charge coÌ„cerning that point But that the Brethren might haue the better satisfaction it pleased the holy ghost that the Apostles should in a Councell decide the question by ioynt consent of themselues and the brethren there assembled which any one of them might of himselfe haue ended But because diuers parts of the Church were conuerted by diuers Apostles and each Church made most account of their owne Apostle the readiest and safest way was to conclude of the matter by common consultation so afterward in all lawfull Councels the written word was held sufficient for the consutation of the heresies that arose from time to time but for the better stopping of the heretikes mouths and satisfying of all men sometimes the consent of former Diuines Churches and Councels was added in good discretion for mens sake not for the matter which might be and was abundantlie prooued or discouered as occasion serued by the scriptures speaker D. B. P. See Cardinall Bellarmine I vvill only record tvvo noble examples of this recourse vnto Antiquity for the true sense of Gods vvord The first out of the Ecclesiastical History whereof Saint Gregorie Nazianzen and Saint Basil tvvo principall lights of the Greeke Church this is recorded They were both noble men brought vp together at Athens And aftervvard for thirteene yeares space laying aside all profane bookes imployed their studie vvholie in the holy Scriptures The sense and true meaning vvhereof they sought not out of their owne iudgement and presumption as the Protestants both do and teach others to do but out of their Predecessors writings and authoritie namely of such as vvere knovvne to haue receiued the rule of vnderstanding from the Tradition of the Apostles These be the very words speaker A. W. The examples you bring are nothing against vs in this question Nazianzen and Basil sought the true sense of the Scripture not out of their owne iudgement but out of their predecessors writings and authoritie What then Therefore the Scripture containes not all doctrine necessarie to saluation This consequence hath often been disprooued Neither is the Antecedent true if it be generally taken For their owne writings shew euery where that they vsed the help of learning and discourse to finde out the sense of scripture in many places and set downe that in their Commentaries which by study they came to vnderstand If any thing were doubtfull we presume they did as we are sure the Protestants now doe where they had not apparant reason to the contrarie rest vpon the authoritie of their predecessors rather than vpon their owne This reuerence wee giue to the Fathers writings and reade them with as great diligâ—… as they that make more bragges of thâ—ir knowledge in â—heâ— And if that rule which the storie 〈◊〉 and or you name not but it is Austin speakes of 〈◊〉 one of them which we follw in searching out thâ—… 〈◊〉 of the Scripture â—…treate â—ou to make 〈◊〉 to vs and you shall finde that we will take it 〈◊〉 and vse it diligently if we cannot shew you certaine reasons to the contrarie If the rule be to take for truth whatsoeuer the ancients haue deliuered how many things yea contrarie expositions shal we hold for true If you say the rule is to beleeue the ancientest what
the fasting and praying of the holiest Couent Abbey or Nunnerie in the countrie As for their satisfactions they are like a broken reede which will not onely faile him that trusts to it but hurt him also I haue shewed that we neede no other satisfaction being deliuered by our Sauiour Christs sufferings and there are few or none except perhaps the begging Friers that had not more neede to satisfie for their owne idlenesse and gluttonie than ordinarily any other kinde of men whatsoeuer if wee may beleeue either the reports of trauellers or the records of your owne histories Can they be said to be obedient to their Superiours that in the very making of their vow oftentimes wilfully disobey their fathers and mothers Or may they be thought to hurt none who liue idle vpon the sweate of other mens browes and are onely a charge to the state whereof they are vnprofitable members But not to hurt is a kindnes perhaps to be commended in theeues what due praise it can haue in a state of perfection for my part I cannot see Which I speake vpon supposition that they are not so hurtfull to men and women as it is commonly thought speaker W. P. And though we mislike this vow also yet we doe it holding these conclusions First that a man may forsake all his goodes vpon speciall calling as the Apostles did when they were sent to preach the Gospell through the whole world Secondly goodes may bee forsaken yea wife children parents brethren and all in the case of confession that is when a man for the religion of Christ is persecuted and constrained to forsake all he hath For then the second table giues place to the duties of the first Mark 10. 29. II. That for the time of persecution men may withdraw themselues iust occasion offered and goe apart to wildernesses or like places Hebr. 11. 37. yet for the time of peace I see no cause of solitarie life If it bee alleadged that men goe apart for contemplation and spirituall exercises I say againe that Gods grace may as wel be exercised in the familie as in the cloister The familie is indeede as it were a schoole of God in which they that haue but a sparke of grace may learne and exercise many vertues the acknowledgement of God inuocation the feare of God loue bountifulnes patience meekenesse faithfulnes c. Nay here bee more occasions of doing or taking good then be or can be in a cloister III. That wee condemne not the old and ancient Monks though we like not euery thing in them For they liued not like idle bellies but in the sweate of their owne browes as they ought to doe and many of them were married and in their meat drinke apparrell rule vow and whole course of life differed from the Monks of this time euen as heauen from earth speaker D. B. P. After all this wast-wind M. Perkins confesseth that a man may vpon a speciall calling sâ—ll all his goods as the Apostles did What then good Sir shal become of your former arguments May one then Vow a curse of the Law and leaue off prayer for neither pouertie nor riches and say that it is not a blesseder thing to giue then to receiue All these arguments which were whilom of great force must now be nothing worth because it pleaseth M. Perkins the wind now sits in an other corner such weather-cockes surely are to be much respected speaker A. W. Master Perkins speakes not a word of selling all a man hath but of forsaking it when hee hath some calling from God which requireth such a course for the following of it as will not affoord a man leisure to looke to his worldly affaires But this is no wilfull casting away the care of our estate but preferring the duties especially laid on vs by God before our owne businesse Neither is it any vowing of pouertie with a fond conceit of perfection but a faithfull labouring in our necessarie calling with neglect of the world in comparison of our dutie In such a case a man must relie on Gods prouidence and vse the best meanes he can to prouide for himselfe that he may not be chargeable to other but helpfull rather not renouncing all propriety in worldly things but carefully sauing and thriftily spending that which it pleaseth God to send by any good meanes whatsoeuer This ouerthrowes no peece of any argument Master Perkins brought before speaker D. B. P. He faith further in time of persecution a man may also leaue all he should rather haue said he must leaue all or else loose all for the persecutor will not spare him Lastly he doth not condemne old auncient Monks who liued by the sweat of their browes and were married many of them as he saith but his authors cited saith not so neither shall he be able to cite one auncient allowed and approued writer who saith that the auncient Monkes liued with their wiues if perhaps they had been married before But no maruaile if fleshly Ministers thinke it no life without their fleshly mates As for labouring at vacant times it was alwaies and is to this day in practise among many religions If other do in good studies writing or teaching imploy that time of labour no doubt but they do farre better speaker A. W. He may and must leaue all if need be It was sufficient for Master Perkins purpose to shew that our goods in some cases might bee forsaken though pouertie might not bee drawne vpon vs by any proud vow of supposed perfection He doth not condemne those Monkes though he thinks many things they vsed not warrantable The report was as Zozomen saith that Ammon the Monk of Egypt by the importunitie of his friends married a wife though hee neuer companied with her Which how he might with good conscience refuse being married let them iudge that reade what the Apostle writes of this matter yet as they say he liued with her eighteene yeeres in that course before she was brought into the liking of a Monkish life But belike it was lawfull then for them to marrie and no man can excuse this Ammon of great sinne that would aduenture to marrie one of whose continencie and willingnes to conteine hee could haue no knowledge before marriage Other Monkes that were married ere they became Monkes could not vow without consent of their wiues If labouring at vacant times be in practise among many religions as indeed there is a multitude of religions among you Papists it is but a worke of supererogation aboue their calling for their profession is idlenesse But that this will not serue the turne Austin sheweth directly enioyning it as a matter of necessitie speaker D. B. P. In defence of the Catholike party M. Perkins hath not a word wherfore I will briefly supplie his want and proue it to be very gratefull to God to sell all and giue it to the poore I omit the example of our blessed Sauiour who would
them he must needs be furiously transported with blind zeale that makes warre against Crosses and burnes holy Pictures as of late the Superintendent of Hereford did in the market place openly Here is not one sufficient testimonie as I haue shewed to prooue that euer there were any such Images as you speake of then what miracles could be wrought for the countenancing of our Sauiour by them It is an honour indeed to haue Images erected in memorie of the deceased but not for him that is God neither is it a religious honour but a ciuill proceeding not from our deuotion but from our loue whatsoeuer the ground of our loue be in respect of them whom we so honour How slight and vaine a motion to the imitation of any mans vertues the sight of his Image is let all experience testifie which indeed can bring no more but the remembrance of it at the most But suppose there were some more force in it all the helps that can be imagined likely to come by it will not counteruaile the danger of Idolatrie and so the breach of Gods commandement in erecting them for any vse of Religion whereupon Idolatrie will most certainly ensue That fable of I cannot tell what woman moued to some ciuill outward carriage by the beholding of Polemons Image seemes to haue been deuised out of the Heathen historie of another Polemon who was brought to the like ciuill vertue by hearing the Philosopher Xenocrates discourse of continencie and temperancie a farre more likely matter whether it be true or false But what haue we to doe with that lying Conuenticle which tels vs of such a thing out of Athanasius as was written if they say true some foure hundred yeeres before and neuer heard of vntill that time when there was such speciall need of it No no that dealing of that Councill is too well knowne to purchase any credit with mē that will not wilfully be blinded In the like sort they deale with Basil Cyril Ambrose Chrysostome Gregorie and the Apostles themselues whose decrees they fetch out of a counterfeit Synod at Antioch The difference speaker W. P. Our dissent from them touching images stands in three points I. The Church of Rome holds it lawfull for them to make images to resemble God though not in respect of his diuine nature yet in respect of some properties and actions Wee on the contrarie hold it vnlawfull for vs to make any image any way to represent the true God or to make an image of any thing in way of religion to worship God much lesse the creature thereby For the second commandement saith plainely Exod. 20. 4. Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen image or the likenesse of any thing in heauen c. The Papists say the commaundement is meant of the images of false gods But will they nill they it must be vnderstood of the images of the true Iehouah and it forbids vs to resemble God either in his nature properties or works or to vse any resemblance of him for any sacred vse as to help the memorie when we are about to worship God Thus much the holy Ghost who is the best expoūder of himself teacheth most plainly Deut. 4. 15. 16. Thou sawest no image at al either of false or true god and therefore thou shalt not make any likenes of anything And againe the Prophet Esay c. 40. 18. reprouing idolaters asketh to whom they will liken God or what similitude will they set vp to him And vers 21. Know ye nothing haue ye not heard hath it not bin told you from the beginning as if he should say haue yee forgotten the second commaundement that God gaue vnto your fathers And thus he flatly reprooues all them that resemble the true God in images speaker D. B. P. This passeth all kind of impudencie to quote the Roman Catechisme in defence of that opinion which it doth of set purpose disproue It teacheth indeed that the very nature and substance of God which is wholy spirituall cannot be expressed and figured by corporall lineaments and colours and all edgeth the places produced by M. Perkins to proue that vnlawfull yet by and by annexeth these words Let no man therefore thinke it to be against religion and the Law of God vvhen any person of the most holy Trinities is pourtraied in such sort as they haue appeared either in the Old or Nevv Testament c. But let the Pastor teach that not the nature of God but certaine properties and actions appertaining to God are represented in such Pictures If the man be not past grace he wil surely blush at such a foule error His textes of Scripture are taken out of the same place of the Catechisme and do proue only that Gods proper nature cannot nor may not be resembled in any corporall shape or liknes speaker A. W. If you would haue dealt as kindly with Master Perkins in this quotation as I haue dealt with you in many you might haue applied it to the former part that the commandement is meant of the Images of the true Iehouah which your Catechisme grants though onely so farre as concernes the expressing of his forme by an Image as your selfe also confesse And the Councill of Trent affirmes that to be vn being al one in the coueting of wife and coueting of house seruant maide oxe asse and whatsoeuer els as the Apostle expresseth it without mētioning any particular But the two first differ almost as much as may be The first forbidding the worship of any other God but the true the second prohibiting the worshipping of him by an Image or Idoll The last reason which only your Catechisme brings beside Austins authoritie and custome of your Church is insufficient also For it was very fit that God should adde that reason of promise and threatning to that rather than any of the rest because hee had speciall care of that and knew that the Iewes and all men generally were likely to worship him after their owne deuices and namely by Images Beside is not the reason annexed to the third Commandement as generall that God will not hold him guiltlesse which breakes any of his lawes why then doe you not make that also a part of the first Commandement speaker W. P. And the distinction they make that an Image is the representation of true things an Idol of things supposed is false speaker D. B. P. But Master Perkins goeth on and saith that our distinction betweene Image and Idoll that an Image representeth a thing that is but Idoll a thing supposed to be but is not is false and against the auncient writers vvho make it all one We proue the contrary First by the authority of the auncient Doctors Origen and Theodoret vvho in expresse vvords deliuer the same difference of Image and Idoll vvhich is taken out of S. Paul laying that an Idoll is nothing in the vvorld that is such Idols as the Heathen take for
of an Idoll And afterward For this cause namely to roote out the matter of Idolatrie the law of God proclaimes Make no Idoll and adding nor likenes of any thing in heauen in earth or in the Sea forbids the seruants of God all ouer the world to vse that Craft In another place Iohn saith Babes keepe your selues from Idols he saith not now from Idolatrie as from the seruice of them but from Idols that is from the shape of them For it is an vnworthie thing that the image of an Idoll and dead thing should bee made the image of the liuing God That I will not let passe saith Lilius Giraldus that we Christians as sometimes also the Romanes had no Images in the Primitiue Church Optatus an ancient Bishop of Africa counted it a defiling of the Altar to haue an Image set vpon it and saith that when it was reported that Paul and Macarius would come and place an Image on the Altar they that heard it were astonied at it and accounted it as execrable to partake with it Images saith Austin are of more force to corrupt the miserable soule because they haue a mouth eyes eares nosthrils hands and feete than to instruct it because they speake not heare not smell not handle not walke not out of which place of Austin Cassander concludes that there was no vse of Images in Churches in Austins time The reason is alike wheresoeuer they be vsed to religion Arguments of the Papists speaker W. P. The reasons which they vse to defend their opinions are these I. In Salomons temple were erected Cherubines which were images of angels on the Mercieseat where God was worshipped and thereby was resembled the Maiestie of God therefore it is lawful to make images to resemble God Answ. They were erected by special commandement from God who prescribed the verie forme of them and the place where they must be set and thereby Moses had a warrant to make them otherwise hee had sinned let them shew the like warrant for their images if they can Secondly the Cherubins were placed in the holie of holies in the most inwarde place of the Temple and consequently were remoued from the sight of the people who onely hearde of them and none but the high Priest saw them and that but once a yeere And the Cherubins without the vaile though they were to be seen yet were they not to be worshipped Exod. 20. 4. Therefore they serue nothing at all to iustifie the images of the Church of Rome Obiect II. God appeared in the forme of a man to Abraham Gen. 18. 1. 13. and to Daniel who sawe the ancient of daies sitting on a throne Dan. 9. Now as God appeared so may he be resembled therefore say they it is lawfull to resemble God in the forme of a man or any like image in which he shewed himselfe to men Answ. In this reason the proposition is false for God may appeare in whatsoeuer forme it pleaseth his maiestie yet doth it not follow that man should therefore resemble God in those formes man hauing no libertie to resemble him in any forme at all vnlesse he bee commaunded so to doe Againe when God appeared in the forme of a man that forme was a signe of Gods presence onely for the time when God appeared and no longer as the bread and wine in the sacrament are signes of Christs bodie and blood not for euer but for the time of administration for afterward they become againe as common bread and wine And when the holy Ghost appeared in the likenesse of a doue that likenesse was a signe of his presence no longer then the holy Ghost so appeared And therefore hee that would in these formes represent the Trinitie doth greately dishonour God and doe that for which hee hath no warrant speaker D. B. P. Hauing confuted the Protestants arguments against the making of Images to represent some property or action of God I now come vnto the Catholike proofe of them The first reason set dovvne by M. Perkins I reserue to the next point the second is God appeared in the forme of a man to Abraham and to Daniel VVho savv the auncient of daies sitting on a throne Now as God hath appeared so may he bee purtraied and dravvne M. Perkins his ansvvere is not so vnlesse it be expresselâ—â— commanded by God Reply This first is flat against his ovvne second conclusion where he holdeth it lawfull to present to the eye in Pictures any histories of the Bible in priuate plaâ—es both the foresaid apparitions be in the Old Testament and therefore may be painted in priuate places which cannot be truly done without you do represent God in the same liknes as there he appeared And what reason leadeth in words to represent those actions of God the same serueth to expresse them in liuely colours Not so saith M. Perkins because when God appeared in the forme of man it was a signe of Gods presence for that time only and for no longer be it so it might notwithstanding be recorded in writing that the memory of such maiestie ioyned with louing kindnesse might endure longer And if it pleased God that this short presence of his should be written to be perpetually remembred euen so the same might be ingrauen in brasle to recommend it to vs so much the more effectually For as the famous Poet doth by the light of nature sing Segnius irritant animos demissa per aures Quam quae sunt oculis subiecta fidelibus speaker A. W. It is your aduantage that Master Perkins is not aliue to answere you who was better able to expresse his own meaning than any otherman can be But in my opinion it was his purpose in that second conclusion to graunt the pourtraying of those histories onely which had nothing to bee painted that was forbidden as he alwaies tooke the resembling of God to be That was generall as rules of Grammar are exceptions are not contradictions but rather parts of those rules If you speake of that reason which moued God to inspire Moses for the writing of that storie we grant that hee might to the same end haue also enioyned the painting or engrauing of it But since it pleased him not so to doe wee answere that your argument prooues nothing There is the same reason say you for painting that and such stories therefore they may as well be painted as written The consequence is false For the one was inspired as I said and the other not Vpon the writing because it is Gods word wee may looke for a blessing from him Not so vpon our owne deuices accompanied with danger of Idolatrie For my part sauing other mens better iudgement I perswade my selfe that God who commanded the Israelites to write the words of the law about their houses and in other places for instruction and remembrance would haue enioyned the painting of his especiall miracles and workes in their fauour
note that in your cōsequent or conclusion you call Images holy as if by I know not what holynes they had some right to be placed in Churches as also you speake afterward where should holy pictures of holy men be more properly bestowed then in holy places Nothing is to be counted holy but that which either hath a qualitie of holines in it as all that are sanctified haue or else is belonging to the seruice of God And whatsoeuer is of this later kind is rather hallowed then holy and hath no holines in it but by being consecrated to such a vse Neither is this consecration as that of the Ceremoniall lawe was whereby a thing was made indeed holy ceremonially as nothing with vs can be the ceremonies being abrogated So that such things are no longer nor farther holy then they are employed in that seruice and therefore the water with which we baptise and the bread and wine with which we celebrate the Supper of the Lord after those actions are past are no more holy then any other matter bread or wine Images therefore can no way be holy more then any other worke in Churches therfore setting apart this bare title of holines I denie the consequence of your Enthymem Salomon adorned the inner parts of the Temple where the people came not with pictures of Cherubins Therefore it is lawfull to set vp images in Churches where the people ordinarily come Who seeth not great difference betweene the Antecedent and the Consequent To omit that which I answered before on Master Perkins behalfe concerning Salomons warrant for his so doing his father and himselfe being Prophets speaker D. B. P. Which is fortified by the testimony of Tertullian in the place cited before where he saith that our Sauiour was Pictured vpon holy Chalices which were vsed at the Altars and of Sozomenus vvho vvitnesseth that our Sauiours Picture vvas taken into the Church speaker A. W. The authoritie of other mens doings is of lesse waight Tertullian saith Christ was pictured like a Shepheard vpon the chalices Nazianzen trimmed vp Images Basil allowed of the Martyr Barlaams picture in the Churches Damasus saith Constantine set vp a siluer image of our Sauiour Chrysostome and Austin say that the Crosse was on the holy tables Therefore it is lawfull to set vp Images in Churches Of the Antecedent by and by in the meane while I deny the consequence They allow of Images therefore they are lawfull If your Church thinke it possible for these men to erre as I am sure it doth then may it not be takē for lawfull because they approue it But to the Antecedent what doth Tertullian but tell vs what the Chalice-maker had done in likelyhood for the setting forth of his worke both this and that of Sozomens report is answered before it is not proued there euer was any such Image of our Sauiour speaker A. W. S. Gregorie Nazianzen maketh mention of Images in the Church of Neocaesarea trimmed vp by himselfe Saint Basil pointeth to that holy mans Picture standing in the Church Nazianzen and Basil speake not of images to any vse of Religion whereof only our question is but either for ornament as the former saith All our labour and care in the beautifying of it or for honor to the martyr which was ciuill not religious and yet scarce iustifiable Damasus shevveth hovv Constantine in the Church of S. Iohn Lateran erected a siluer Image vnto our Sauiour speaker A. W. S. Chrysostome 〈◊〉 demonst quod Christ. sit Deus And S. Augustine do teach that the Crosse was on the holy Tables and vsed at all holy functions This report of Constantines erecting a siluer image seemeth to depend vpon the tale of his being baptised at Rome by Syluester whereas it is apparant by Eusebius and Theodoret that he was not baptised till the very end of his life and in Asia many hundred miles from that Church of Saint Iohn Lateran in Rome in Nicomedia now called by the Turke who possesseth it Nichor a towne of Bythinia Chrysostome speaketh of the generall vse of the crosse in all places not for any holines of the signe but as a marke of profession The crosse saith he is in the purple robes in the Crownes the crosse is at our prayers the crosse is in our armor the crosse is vpon the holy table the crosse is ouer all the world yea the crosse glisters aboue the sunne If this crosse were an Image Optatus as we heard before counts the presence of it a defiling of the Altar That place of Austin intreates of the crosse both for the signe and image of it most superstitiously ascribing strange effects to it which no moderate or reasonable man can defend except he will expound it as I shewed before of an outward ceremonie vsed in prayer to which purpose wee may applie that speech of his in the end of that discourse Looke what the presence of Christs body did vpon the earth that doth the famous memory of the victorious crosse with a faithfull calling vpon the name of Christ. Otherwise it is wonderfull strange that Austin should so highly esteeme of the crosse whereas Optatus a worthie Bishop of the same countrey in the beginning of Austins time accounts so meanely of it speaker D. B. P. And the reason why Images should principally be set in Churches is very pregnant For where should holy Pictures of holy men be more properly bestovved than in holy places And the Church being a resemblance of heauen as S. Paul teacheth is most conueniently decked vp vvith Images the representations of heauenly creatures that men entring into that holy place may by the vievv and consideration of such a heauenly shew retire their minds from worldly busines and lift them vp vnto the soueraigne Monarch of both heauen and earth speaker A. W. The Apostle saith no such thing of any Church now but affirmes that the Tabernacle of the Iewes was ceremonially a shadow of heauenly things And yet it would be remembred that the Tabernacle and Temple had no Images but in the holie places where the people came not We hold it very conuenient to haue our Churches modestly adorned rather than sumptuously and with such kinde of ornaments as may not carrie away the minde by the outward sense either to a vaine imagination or to some superstitious conceit speaker D. B. P. Now let vs come to those tvvo obiectione of M. Perkins vvhich see me to be against the erection of Images in Churches The first is out of the Councell of Eliberis cap. 36. which commandeth that nothing should be painted on the walles of the Church that was adored of the people Ans. That if the Councell speake of the Image of God in vvhich sense M. Perkins citeth it and the word adored doth insinuate then it may be said that the Councill inhibiteth that sort of Gods Images vvhich are made
in Epiphanius other counterfeit testimony That Images must not be suffered in the common house because vve must carry God in our minds To vvhich vve ansvvere that Images must be suffred in all places that vve may the better carry-God in our harts being by the sight of them both often put in mind of him and much moued to honor and loue him speaker A. W. In steed of answering the other testimonie out of Epiphanius you go about vnder hand to strike at him thorough Master Perkins sides but there is no great force in your blow For as I said erewhile there is more daunger of Idolatrie in the suffering of Images especially in any place where God is to bee worshipped than hope of instruction or deuotion by the sight of them And as Epiphanius saith in this place It is not meete that a Christian should be exercised by the eyes but by the meditation of the minde For such sight as Clement taught vs before abaseth the Maiestie of God and begets in vs erroneous opinions speaker W. P. Obiect III. Man is the image of God but it is lawfull to paint a man and therefore to make the image of God Ans. A very cauill for first a man cannot be painted as he is the image of God which stands in the spiritual gifts of righteousnesse and true holinesse Againe the image of a man may be painted for ciuill or historicall vse but to paint any man for this ende to represent God or in the way of religion that wee may the better remember and worship God it is vnlawfull Other reasons which they vse are of small moment and therefore I omit them Differ II. They teach and maintaine that images of God and of Saints my be worshipped with religious worship specially the crucifixe For Thomas of Watering saith Seeing the crosse doth represent Christ who died vpon a crosse and is to bee worshipped with diuine honour it followeth that the crosse is to be worshipped so too We on the contrary hold they may not Our principall ground is the second commaundement which containeth two partes the first forbiddeth the making of Images to resemble the true God the second forbids the worshipping of them or God in them in these wordes Thou shalt not bow downe to them Now there can be no worship done to any thing lesse then the bending of the knee speaker D. B. P. Novv I come vnto a third point which M. Perkins maketh the second of our difference That Images may be not only made and set in Churches but also vvorshipped M. Perkins holds the contrarie and his principall ground is the second commandement vvhich containes saith he tvvo parts The first forbids the making of Images to resemble God the second the vvorshipping of them or God in them in these vvords Thou shalt not bovv dovvne to them Ans. If it be only forbidden to make the Image of God and to adore it then the making and worshipping of the Image of Christ or of any other creature is not there prohibited And so this second commandement more than thrise alleadged vvill not serue the turne against any other Image but God only And in plaine reason according also to Master Perkins his ovvne confession the Commandements of the first Table touch only our duty tovvards God that vve giue him all his due honor and do not giue any part therof vnto any thing else whatsoeuer Wherfore diuine and godly worship is only there spoken of and not such worship as we giue vnto any creature or to the picture of it and consequently there is nothing there against the vvorshipping of our holy Images speaker A. W. It is not onely forbidden to make the Image of God and to worship it but as Master Perkins said before to make an Image of any thing in the way of Religion to worship God much more to worship the creature thereby Therefore the Assumption that should be added to that proposition of yours if it be only forbidden c. namely but it is only forbidden to make the image of God and to adore it is false and so the second Commandement is against all Images for Gods seruice The Commandements of the first table touch onely our dutie to God True and it is an especial part of our dutie to him that we giue no religious honour to any thing whatsoeuer but to him onely For as Religion is a dutie of the creature to the Creator and not any bond betwixt creature and creature so is religious honour due onely to him to whom religion is appropriated Therefore the Heathen were neuer so sottish as to worship any man or thing with religious worship whereto they did not first ascribe some kinde of diuinitie according to which they proportioned their worship thereto speaker D. B. P. Obserue that there is a soueraigne vvorshippe due to God as to the Creator and gouernour of all the vvorld and to giue this to any creature is Idolatrie Another honor by infinit degrees inferiour yet absolute in itself is ascribed vnto Angels and men as creatures endued with reason and made after the likenesse of God and to exhibitth is to whom it is due is ciuilitie and not Idolatrie This honor may be diuided into two parts because these creatures are like to God asvvell in their naturall povvers and qualities as in their supernaturall And that honour vvhich is giuen to man or Angell in respect of any naturall quality may be called morall or ciuil But that vvhich is attributed vnto them in regard of their supernaturall gifts may vvell be called religious and spirituall because it is due vnto them only for their spirituall and religious qualities There is a third kind of worship yet meaner then the other which is a kind of dependant and respectiue worship as vvhen a seruant is honoured or cherished not for his ovvne but for his masters sake And this is that worship which vve allovv vnto Images vvhich for the Saints sake whom it doth represent vve do either reuerently regard or take off our hat or bovv our knee vnto it This third kind of worship being all we allow vnto Pictures were he not that vnderstands it more than half franticke that should thinke it a great disparagement vnto the incomprehensible vvorship of God that to one of his seruants Pictures I should yeeld some such pettie reuerence or that God should forbid this in the fore-front of his ten Commaundements nothing lesse speaker A. W. This discourse to colour your Idolattie by a distinction of worship hath more craft than truth For first if you meane plainly why doe you not tell vs what that soueraigne worship is which you acknowledge due to the Creator onely that we may consider whether you giue it to any creature or no Secondly what is the meaning of those words that the honor ascribed to men and Angels is absolute in it selfe and to what purpose is it here alleaged Thirdly the chiefe reason of
at variance for euer with the Church of Rome For they erre in the foundation of religion making indeede an Idoll of the true God and worshipping an other Christ then we doe vnder new termes maintayning the idolatry of the heathen And therefore haue wee departed from them and so must wee still doe because they are idolaters as I haue proued speaker D. B. P. But this poynt of difference is made to bring in a common arâ—ument of theirs to wit that the worshipping of the golden Calfe is condemned as flat Idolatrie and yet the Israelits worshipped not the Calfe but God in the Calfe to which we say they did not worship the true God in the Calfe but the God of the Egyptians which was taken by them to haue the shape of a blacke Calfe with white spots See S. Augustine And therefore making the golden calfe to represent this false god and attâ—ibuting their deliuerance vnto that supposed god and not vnto the God of Israel committed idolatry which the text prooueth most manifest these be thy gods that brought thee out of Egypt M. Perkins answereth that the meaning is nothing else but that the golden Calfe was a signe of the presence of the true God such glosses without any authority of the auncient fathers is â—idiculous being against the plaine text but sayth he we must not thinkâ— them so â—adde as to take a Calfe made with their care-rings to be their God no but we may well thinke them so vngratefull vnto the true God their deliuerer that they did ascribe their deliuâ—rance not to him but vnto that God which the Aegyptians serued whose purtraiture was that Calfe speaker A. W. This point of difference is brought in not to auow any argument of ours but to answere a distinction of yours who being driâ—â—n to shifts thinke to help the matter by telling vs that the Iewes worshipped the golden Calfe and therefore were condemned To which we replie that the Iewes did worship Iehouah in or by the Calfe which we prooue by the text it selfe s These be thy Gods that brought thee out of the laÌ„d of Egypt But it was the true God that brought them out of Egypt euen t Iehouah You answere that they attributed their deliuerance to that false God of the Egyptians Then did they thinke the Egyptian God to be Iehouah for to Iehouah do they consecrate the day of dedicating the Calfe u Tomorrow shall be the holy day to Iehouah But how ridiculous a conceipt is this to faine that the Iewes should imagin that the Egyptians God was their deliuerer whereas they knew that the great wise men of Egypt the chiefe worshippers of that God had striuen against Moses and their deliuerance by all meanes possible till at last they and the power of their God were ouercome So that indeede it was impossible they should be so sottish as to dreame that the Egyptian God had deliuered them And if this had bin their fault being a thing so monstrous and sensles God would certainely haue charged it vpon them when he laid out their sinne to Moses But he rather accuseth them for breaking his commaundement by making a molten Calfe affirming to it and proclaiming These are thy Gods that brought thee out of Egypt This is farther confirmed by those two calues which in imitation of this Ieroboam set vp to worship the true God by and so continued euen by Iehu who destroyed the heathen Idols The text prooues nothing for you These be thy Gods that brought thee out of Egypt For the Egyptians had no such Calfe to their God though the Oxe or Calfe called Apis as Austinâ—aith â—aith in the place alleaged was consecrated to their chiefe God Serapis If we brought nothing for our exposition but authoritie you might stop our months with the contrary iudgement of the auncient writers but against reason authoritie is of small force and yet you bring none for your selfe nor answere Master Perkins shewing that Images are called by the names of the things they reâ—… 〈◊〉 and so that calfe made to be a token of Iehouahs presence that brought them out of Egypt is said to be the God that brought them out of the land of Egypt speaker D. B. P. But now before we end this question I must let you â—â—â—erstand what worthy men they were that fiâ—st began to wage batteâ—◠〈◊〉 â—…ages they were the â—evves in their â—almâ—â— Ord. 2. traâ—… 〈◊〉 aâ—… 〈◊〉 â—…od 〈◊〉 Act. 5. A baâ—baâ—ous Persian Xenias as 〈◊〉 Nâ—… 〈◊〉 16 cap. 27. Then Maâ—â—met the great god of the Turkes Alâ—… 〈◊〉 15. 17. vvith such like infidels â—oâ—â—â—ers and the skumme of the earth See Cardinall Bellaâ—mme de Jmag. lib. 2. cap. 6. speaker A. W. If these be the auncientest Authors you can bring that haue waged against Images I can goe beyond you many hundred yeeres What say you to Iacob who made all his houshold giue him their Images which he buried vnder an Oake that was by Shechim about the yeere of the world 2270 The commandement of God giuen on Mount Synah the preaching of the Prophets the zeale of many worthy Kings of Iuda were long before the Iewes Talmud which was begunne to be gathered and written more then 300. yeeres after Christ and was not finished till about the yeere 506. long before which time as I haue shewed Origen and Clement did not only speake against the Heathen Idols but defend the Christians for refusing to haue any Images and proue that the vse of them was vnlawfull and vnfit I shewed before about this matter of Xenaias who at soonest was aboue 400. yeeres after Christ that Images were withstood as vnlawfull euen in the beginning of preaching the Gospel This Nicephorus wrot not much more then 300. yeeres since As for Blasphemous Mahomet who patched vp his abhominable Alcoran with peeces of all kinds of professions though his intent was damnable and his writing most sottish yet hath he many things agreeable to the truth taken out of the bookes of Moses and in this point of Images his acknowledging of the truth shall make the more to your condemnation What should we do looking in Bellarmine if there were any thing for your aduantage more then that which you haue alleadged you might and would haue made bould with it as you do generally in all your answeres Bellarmine there tels vs a storie of the mislikers of Images but he neither begins where â—e should and dissents without any sufficient reason from Alphonsus a Castro and maketh that seauenth Councell his chiefest bulwarke speaker D. B. P. I vvill vvith one or tvvo testimonies of the auncientest Fatherâ— finish this controuersie I â—ctant Iâ— car de pass Christ. Kneâ—le downe and adore the venerable wâ—od of thâ— Crosse. Hâ—â—rome 〈◊〉 vita Paulae She adored prostrate before the Crosse as if shee had seâ—â—e Christ hanging on it Basil agaiâ—st Jâ—lian cited Act.