that erreth Which is nothing els indeede but confusedly in stead of putting difference betwixt error and beresie to note the difference betwixt a man that erreth in simplicitie and an hereticke In deed because S. Paule sayth That an hereticke is peruerted and sinneth condemned of himselfe Tit. 3. And that such cause offences and diuisions contrary to the wholesome doctrine which we haue learned Rom. 16. We hold them not hereticks vnlesse they bee conuinced and obstinatly despise the iudgement of God and the iudgement of the Church conuincing them by the light of the word and seeke to peruert others and to draw them into their faction But will it hereupon followe that no error is of it selfe an heresie vnlesse it light into such a man as obstinatly will holde and teach it Or that euery error euen the least by obstinacie of man ioyned with it becommeth heresie Then you say thus in effect euery error is an heresie no error is an heresie This Master Barrow is your déepe skill which ye boast of that ye haue learned for if the man put the difference by his obstinacie it must needes be so Then let me aske ye where ye haue learned yâ— to deny the vnitie of the Godhead is not an heresie or yâ— trinitie of persons in the same or to deny that Christ is God or that he is man vnlesse the man that erreth in them be conuinced and found obstinate Are not these and such like heresies in themselues although the men that erre in them be not conuinâ—â—â—â—â—t hold them ignorantly Agayne shew vs where ye haue â—â—â—rned that euery error euen to the least being in an hereticke becommeth an heresie Thus may the reader see how confusedly ye haue put that to distinguish errors which doth but distinguish betweene the men that doo erre In the next place where you say that the error must be duely conuinced vnto the conscience of the man that erreth before he can be so wilfully obstinate as doth separate him from the faith and from the communion of Christ ye speake some trueth but ye speake ye knowe not what For it ye could see it is so farre from cléering ye from presumptuous intrusion into Gods office that it vtterly ouerthroweth ye and your former words and somewhat which ye write elsewhere in this booke being laid with it becommeth a very snare for to hold ye Ye haue accused the Church of England condemned and cast her foorth for wilful obstinacie as quite separated from Christ now let vs see how duely ye haue conuinced out whole Church all the assemblies and all the particular members in the same and found them hereticks First remember your owne words in this place that ye doubt not neither euer thought but that the best Church which consisteth of mortall men may fall either of negligence or ignorance into grieuous offences and dangerous errors and that some famous Churches and Christians may fall into such errors as I terme fundamentall c. Touching the faults which you charge the Church of England withall in our worship in our people in our Ministrie and gouernment Ecclesiasticall albeit in the whole course of your writings your speaches be merueilous excessiue yet in the 180 181 182. pages of this your booke agaynst me ye plainly confesse them to bee such as right excellent Christians haue ignorantly erred and dyed in For speaking of those which suffered death for religion in our Church ye call them godly Martyrs saying that ye doubt not of their happie and blessed estate all their sinnes and these false offices and ministrie which they executed in their ignorance among the rest being forgiuen them These be your owne words Master Barrow which I haue set downe You acknowledge them to bee godly blessed Martyrs they erred you say in these things but of simplicitie through ignorance If those principall men were ignorant in these matters then is it no meruaile if all the rest in the land were ignorant in them which imbraced the Gospell Vpon this it followeth that the Church of England was or might bee a true Church vntill such time as she was duely conuinced of â—er errors and found obstinate And if she hath not been duely conuinced and found in such wilfull obstinacie as doth quite separate from the faith and from the communion of Christ then is she still or may bee the true Church hauing it may bee for ought that you knowe and there is no likelihood to the contrarie many thousands in her which are readie to shed their bloud for the holy Gospell of Christ And then how wicked and how accursed is your presumption in condemning her vtterly Nay say you but she is conuinced and all your assemblies and found so wilfully obstinate in maintayning her errors euen against her knowledge that she hath forfaited the couenant and is separated from the communion of Christ This is your bare accusation you may not cary away the matter so for then indeede ye may easily cleare your selues from wicked intrusion into Gods office but wee must examine 〈◊〉 ye graunt there must be a due conuincing first what it 〈…〉 be duly conuinced then when and by whome she hath been â—â— such sorte or so duly conuinced as ye charge her and yet found obstinate This is the rule that one brother offending is not to loose the dignitie and place of a Christian and to be reputed as an heathen vntill such time as he bee conuinced by the Church and found so obstinate that he doth despise her iudgement and authoritie This is the onely due conuincing and here is the onely power to east foâ—rth as heathen a man in some offence conuinced And shall not a Church haue as great priuiledge as a man Is it not more then absurd to say one man cannot be cast foorth as an heathen for obstinacie in some offence agaynst priuate admonitions but whole Churches may All the true Churches haue conuinced the Church of Rome and condemned her as obstinate not in some light offences in which true Christians may erre but as most blasphemous and Idolatrous against the principles of fayth and grounds of Religion teaching that no Christian man ought to ioyne with her But what Churches are they which haue conuinced the Church of England of such errors and found her so obstinate that they haue condemned her and willed all men to forsake her O M. Barrow you shall finde that all the godly Churches are so farre from this that contrariwise they acknowledge her for a sister Looke then againe vpon your horrible presumption and see who hath giuen you such power aboue and agaynst all Churches If ye minde obstinately to persist in your euill without warrant and euen agaynst this manifest worde of God being much better ye should fall downe and bewayle your vngodly wayes and seeke for pardon ye haue no way to shift or to colour your wickednes but this that men may bee conuinced of error by particular persons and that so
seruants Gods witnesses that the Churches and their ministers did vnchristianly reuile them and their glorious sufferings For I haue giuen yee none other tearmes then the Churches gaue them And if in the chiefe poynts of Donatisme ye be not full Donatists and so holde sundry poyntes of Annabaptisme being fallen into their tents and as outragiously fighting against all Churches and with the same weapons that they did and with as blinde fury condemning them as those other let me be accounted for no better indéede than a lying Prophet Your words are many and great are your outcries but let vs see how well ye defend and cleare your selues by them from this most wicked intrusion into Gods office I set down first against ye that he doth wickedly and proudly thrust himselfe into Gods office which taketh vpon him to iudge and condemne any one man to be no true Christian which holding the place and dignitie of a brother in Gods Church and professing the fayth soundly studieth to please God for the common errors and frailties vnto which euen the most perfect are subiect because the holy scriptures speaking of the regenerate haue these sayings We know but in part 1. Cor. 13. who vnderstandeth his errors Psal 19. And in many things wee sinne all I am 3. Then how much more intollerable is their wicked presumption and intrusion into Gods office which take vpon them vtterly to condemne as quite separate from Christ all the assemblies in a kingdome which professing the Gospell haue many particuler members in them that earnestly indeuour to please God and are not spotted with any grosse errors or notorious offences Then further doe I alleadge that as a brother hath his place and dignitie in a Christian assemblie so our Church of England hath her place and dignitie among all the godly Churches which for the fayth that shee doth together with them publiquely professe and sincerely in all the principles and grounds of the holy Christian religion doe not only allow her the place but also do regarde and loue her giuing vnto her the dignitie of a sister yea euen of a mother in Israel because shee hath not beene barren but hath brought forth many deare children to God and not a few of them crowned with martyrdome Ye haue not Master Barrow answered one worde vnto al this but haue with déepe silence slipt past it But ye say He that is in his conscience conuinced of errors and doth persist in them is wilfully obstinate and so euidently declareth that he hath no faith And in this case yee say is the Church of England it holdeth errors and is conuinced in them and yet persisteth to defend and teach the same and therefore it is quite seperated from Christ Agaynst this I set downe that a brother offending is not to be iudged so wilfully obstinate as that he is to be cast forth and condemned to be but as an heathen because he is conuinced of his sinne and error by priuate admonitions and doth persist but when the admonition and censure of the Church is despised For our Sauiour sayth not If hee will not heare thee count him as an heathen or if thou take one or two with thee and â—e will not heare them But if he will not heare the Church then let him be vnto thee as an heathen Math. 18. This ye haue not answered for ye can shew no place in Gods word where this power is giuen to priuate men but onely to the Church And yet persist in this most horrible intrusion forgetting the precept Judge not that ye be not iudged Math 7. and he that condemneth his brother condemneth the lawe and thou condemnest the law thou art not an obseruer of the law but a Iudge Iam. 4. vers 11. And therefore we must heare enter into a larger discourse about it I will first sâ—t downe that which yee bring to mayntayne your doing We doubt not say you neither euer thought but the best Church that consisteth of mortall men may fall either of negligence or ignorance into grieuous offences and dangerous errors yea wee doubt not but that some famous Churches and Christians may fall into such errors as he teâ—meth fundamentall the holding whereof should vtterly subuert the faith As in the Church of Corinth Galatia and Asia there were c. But this wee holde withall that no true Church or Christian will maintaine any sinne or error when it is euidently shewed and conuinced vnto them by the word of God c. To your second charge we answer that wee haue learned to put difference betwixt error and heresie All good men as is sayd doo and may erre but no good man will defend or persist in his error when it is shewed and conuinced vnto him Obstinacie ioyned vnto error after it is duely conuinced maketh heresie Further we say that any error being obstinatly holden and taught after it is duely reprooued and conuinced vnto him maketh an heretick and heresie in that partie or in that congregation that so holdeth and teacheth it doth separate from the faith and communion of Christ Wherefore we can but wonder at your ignorance who stand for a teacher in your Church and yet hold some errors obstinatly held and taught agaynst the trueth of GOD not to be heresies or at the least not to be fundamentall c. In these words Master Barrow which I doubt not ye will acknowledge lieth the whole defence and cléering of your selues from that wicked and presumptuous intrusion into Gods office which I haue layd to your charge I am sure that in your imagination ye vtter in them most diuine vndoubted principles or els how could yee bring in your conclusion of such wonder at mine ignorance standing for a Teacher in our Church Then must we stand and wonder each at other for I doo indeed greatly wonder to see how strong the illusions of Satan be when he is turned into the likenes of an Angell of light that such men as you taking vpon ye not to stand as teachers in some particular Churches but to controule all Churches and all the learned teachers that haue been since the Apostles as if yee were sent from heauen with speciall knowledge aboue all others should in so fewe words bewray so much confused palpable ignorance and absurd errors In very deede vnder this streame of words lieth one of the chiefe rocks vpon which ye are runne and against which ye cause many a simple soule to dash with great hazard leading them into the same wicked presumption agaynst God which your selues are fallen into The reader shall see plainly that here is no cléering your selues from that foule intrusion into Gods office vnlesse the heaping vp of errors may be déemed cléering I will begin first with the difference which ye say ye haue learned to put betwixt error and heresie The onely difference which ye make is the obstinate persisting in it and teaching it after it is conuinced vnto him
you to disproue it But that then all the world is within the Church holy all being sprong within farre lesse then a thousand generations of many faithfull and lineally come from the Patriarch Noah And that then ought the Israelites vnder the lawe to haue circumcised all their captiue Cananites and heathen that came into their power Then ought the Church now to baptize al the seed euen of the most wicked and vngodly whether Turkes Papists Idolaters c. You are out of the way Master Barrow and the faster you runne the further for you should remember that I spake of the seede of such prophane men as remayne in the Church and professe Christ and are sealed with the seale of the Couenant Will you make no difference betweene those which were or are without the Church â—ncircumcised or vnbaptized not professing the God of Abraham or the faith of Christ and those which were or be in the Church circumcised or baptized professing the the God of Abraham and the faith of Christ The Cananites and other heathen if they forsooke false Gods and imbraced the religion of the true God were circumcised so may the Turks and heathen be baptized at this day But while they are without and blaspheme and renounce Christ what hath the Church to do with their children which are not vnder her gouernment and power to bring vp The Church is to take care that al those children may bee instructed in the faith and guided in the way of godlines which she admitteth vnto baptisme For the places of Scripture where I sayd that the couenant with Abraham was made thus I will bee thy God and the God of thy seede and that to a thousand generations Exod. 20. And that because of this S. Peter calleth all the Iewes in generall the children of the Prophets and of the couenant Act. 3. 25. and Paule Rom. 9. 4 For which respect they are called holy Rom. 11. And the childreÌ„ of Idolaters among them are called Gods children Ezech. 16. The whole nation of the Iewes a very fewe men excepted did at sundrie times very grieuously sinne agaynst the Lord and the greater part of those neuer returned by true repentance but yet remayned in the profession of the God of Abraham and were circumcised If the couenant had been disanulled to their seede how could Saint Peter say they were the children of the Couenant Or how could Saint Paule say that theirs was the adoption and the Couenant If none were outwardly to stand vnder the Couenant but the elect how should this haue been spoken Or if the Couenant had been disanulled by their fathers sinnes Unto this Master Barrow you haue made none answer at all But you take occasion at that which I alleage out of Exod. 20. to make some colour or shewe of matter and say that I wittingly suppresse the next words of the sentence which are these of them that loue me and keepe my commandements which shew to whom this couenant is made and belongeth and the condition on our part And you require that I should â—heâ— one plate through the whole Scripture where the Lords Couenant is made vnto vs without this condition and then you say I may peraduenture cléere my selfe and mine ordinarie for publishing this wicked and diuellish heresie so directly contrary to the whole Scriptures in more then a thousand places Thus it is your pleasure Master Barrow euen in your deepe ignorance and that in the grounds of Religion to impugne the stablenes of Gods couenant made vnto his people It is a thing indeed which any godly mind may with horror tremble at when with such furie you terme it a diuellish heresie which is indeed that doctrine of grace deliuered in the Scriptures whereby the glorie of the Lord is most highly magnified It is certayne that the Couenant or promise of God dooth not profite any vnlesse they receiue it as the holy Ghost speaketh mixed with faith Heb. 4. 2. Then where true faith is there is sanctification there is obedience according to the measure of that faith greater or lesse Hereupon it followeth that as God is become their God so they are become his people and this is required on our part But now to inferre vpon this that the stablenes of Gods couenant dependeth vpon this condition if we keepe his commandements and that a man yea a whole Church doth forfeit the couenant as your phrase is if they shewe rebellion is most wicked For what is more manifest then this that if it had been so the couenant had been forfeited almost vnto all Israel and that very often for they oftentimes rebelled agaynst God most grieuously and brake promise on their part The complaints of the Prophets are many sundrie Psalmes doo set it forth the booke of the Iudges declareth how oft they rebelled and fel vnto foule Idolatrie and how oft he plagued them and humbled them by deliuering them into the hands of heathen Kings You will say they rebelled but repented And in the dayes of euery godly Iudge and godly King were the visible Church But in the times of their defection when they committed Idolatrie you say they were not the visible Church Yea you alleage testimonies of Scripture to prooue that in their defection they were not the Lords people as Deuteronom 32. 19. Micha 2. 7 8 9 Amos. 8. 2. Ezech. 16. Alas Master Barrow would any man looke for such matter at their hands that had but euen read ouer the Byble It is declared by Moses that God chose them to be his people not for their owne righteousnes but of free mercie and made his couenant with them Likewise it is most certayne that hee continued his faith towards them not for that they kept couenant with him for they often rebelled but for his own names sake To say that they forfeited the Couenant by transgressing his commandements and recouered it agayne by repentance and so to be now out now in is that I may say no worse most foolishly spoken For they did not enter agayne into a couenant which was lost because they repented but contrariwise they repented because they were in the couenant That is because he had sworne vnto them to bee their God hee not onely brought them downe by afflictions chastising them as a father but gaue them the graces of repentance This is shewed Psalm 106. where the Prophet hauing set foorth their manifold rebellions and the plagues wherewith he plagued them he sayth When they were brought downe by affliction he looked to their distresse and heard their cry And remembred for them his couenant and repented for the multitude of his mercies The Lord sayth also He foreknewe them to be an hard people that their necke was as a barre of yron and their forehead of brasse and that they would deale vnfaithfully Esay 48. vers 4. 8. Yet he sayth I will be long suffering for my names sake and for my praise I will refraine mine anger towards
in England and planted a true Church And therefore if you deale rightly you must proue against vs. I haue shewed that popery did not vtterly destroy the visible Church And there be at this day multitudes that so walke in the holy fayth that no man is able to accuse them And therefore if either all or the most part of Schismatikes were not obstinate cauillers their mouthes might be stopped for euer Thus much might fuffice agaynst that you affirme our people neuer had any entrance to be vnder the couenant and so to stand the visible Church but to be as heapes of prophane heathen but that your matter reacheth further then against the assemblies in England condemning other Churches which professe the holy Gospel And least some may think that in this poynt I charge ye but by some hard collection in so horrible presumption as to condemne all Christian Churches I will recite the wordes which you haue set downe in your other booke pag. 33. where after long discourse agaynst the reasons which Master Caluine vseth both out of the olde and new Testament to proue that neither the worship it selfe nor the faythfull are defiled by the company of the open wicked you speake thus This and such like detestable stuffe hath Master Caluine in his ignorance partly to confute that damnable sect of Annabaptists which fantastically dreame vnto theÌ„selues a Church without spot in this life and for euery transgression that ariseth are ready to leaue forsake the felowship of the Church without due and orderly reproofe Partly also is this stuffe brought to defend his owne rash and disorderly proceedings at Geneua whilest hee at the first dash made no scruple to receiue all the whole state euen all the prophane ignorant people into the bosome of the Church to administer the Sacraments vnto them which confuse route could not fit with Christs heauenly gouernement neither could it by any meanes agree vnto them in this estate But that monstrous disorders and haynous enormityes dayly ensued thereof whereby this their Church became a iust reproch vnto all men euen to those wicked Heretikes yea that which is worse and more to be lamented it became a miserable president and pernitious example euen vnto all Europe to fall into the like transgression as the confused estate of all those regions where the Gospell is thus disorderly taught declareth Let the Reader here consider Master Barrow what a worthie Champion you â—re become for the Papists for Heretickes and Schismaticks agaynst all the Churches which professe the Gospell and agaynst all their teachers What was Master Caluine to bee regarded if he were so ignorant so rash and so disorderly in his doings How miserable was his case that he must be so pernitious an example to the ruine of many What is or what hath the Church of Geneua been and together with the assemblies of England all Churches in Europe but heapes of prophane multitudes no better then heathen or dogs if your words be true True Christ they haue none for they fit not his gouernment nor his gouernment them as you say But Master Barrow as the Churches and their ministers haue been able haue iustly defended themselues though not from all faults because there is no Church so pure agaynst the wisest and learnedst reuiling Rabsakaes the Hereticks and Schisinaticks so must you thinke that they shall be able to withstand two or thrée which are so ignorant in some grounds of religion as that their bookes are a bundle or rather a dunghill of absurdities Whom shal you euer perswade that hath any true light that your knowledge so farre passeth the learned of all Churches Were it not honour enough for ye to triumph ouer the ministers of the Church of England whom so often in disdayne you terme learned Priests but ye must be generall conquetors like Alexander the great Faine you would seeme to bee farre from the Annabaptists but how néere you are vnto them euen in their tents all that haue skill doo see Well then to conclude this poynt he that will finde a true Church with which he may ioyne himselfe he must not seeke it in the publike assemblies either in England Scotland Geneua or any region of Europe for by your iudgement they be all prophane heapes but he must seeke the fellowship and ioyne with the Donatists of England Now to the second part of the assumption where you say that the Church of England hath power to cast foorth none by excommunication I am of the minde that Christ hath giuen such a power to his Church and also doo take it that the Church of England is not boyd thereof But you condemne all excommunication which is not executed by an Eldership and the people of euery particular assemblie If excommunication be onely to bee so executed then how could Esra with the Elders and Princes of Israel publish an excommunication generall against euery one that should not within three dayes come vp to Ierusalem Esra 10. vers 8. And where doo you proue that excommunication is to be executed vpon any but for contumacie and contempt of the Church Doo you hold that a man which doth repent him for his adulterie these heresie or such like and is cast downe in sorrowe is yet to be deliuered vp to Satan If not why doo you vpbrayd that there is none cast foorth among vs but for contumacie In the next place you take vpon you to confute and cut downe foure false expositions as you say of Math. 18. vers 17. Tell the Church The first sort take the word Church for the Pope the second for the Archbishops and Bishops which exercise this power for the whole Church the third for the companie of the Elders apart from the people which they call the Consistorie the fourth are they which would haue the people excommunicate without the Elders The two first sorts that is the Pope and the Bishops doo depend you say vppon one line and build their preheminence vpon the promise made to the Apostle Peter Math. 16. vers 18. 19. where the keyes of the kindome of heauen are giuen him And vpon the Apostle Paul his example who deliuered Hymeneus and Alexander vnto Satan Timoth. 5. 10. You are so learned and skilfull Master Barrow yea so trustie and true that wee must holde them for Oracles that doo proceede out of your mouth although indeed they be neuer so false as shall appeare Touching the place in Mat. 16. for the keyes giuen vnto Peter it is agreed vpon by all parts that there is a power giuen to be exercised in the Church The disagréement is chiefly about this to whom it is giuen The Pope with his adherents sayth it was giuen onely vnto Peter and his successors He sayth further that Peter was Bishop of Rome that there is his chaire and that this power is annexed to that chaire and so the Pope alone is to haue it and from him all other are to participate which
which would not yeeld to receiue any fruite or comfort by their prayers I take it Master Barrow you haue the letter If you haue it shew it vnto some honest man that may speake for you and defend ye not to be past shame in forging such a sense If ye haue it not I can let ye haue the perfect copie of it and will let any friend ye haue see it They are so far off in the letter from giuing the least suspition that they doubt of our Church and ministrie as that they pronounce it your heathenish opinion whereby ye denie vs to be Christians What preachers sent vnto ye I know not but that they refrayned to haue conference with ye perceiuing vpon the sight of your little paper as yee say that they could not defend their estate doe yee indeede think still that they tooke it to be the roaring of a Lyon could they not discerne thinke ye betwéene rudere and rugire Your multitudes and armies of wordes being but vayne â—anglings I will passe by and come directly to the substance of the matter And because our ministrie is ordayned by Bishops which is by one part of their gouernement your third and fourth accusation shall bee handled ioyntly as it were vnder one In page 104. Ye wonder as ye say that in this florishing estate of our Church which ouerfloweth with so great learning aboundeth with so many writers that not one of them should vndertake to proue the ministry of their Church directly by the rules of Gods word in their office entrance administration and maintenance These may very well be some of those swelling words of banitie which Saint Peter speaketh of for who if he know not before the vaine insolencie of Master Barrow and his fellow reading this wonder would not iudge them to bee men very deepely read Haue they not read ouer thinke ye all the learned writers of this age wondring that there is not one among them all that hath vndertaken to proue our ministrie directly by the rules of Gods word Is it not pitty that there be no moe learned writers that these men might search them also to haue this poynt handled If you haue now done wondring Master Barrow giue vs leaue a little to wonder The Papists denying that the churches which haue reiected popery haue any ministry and requiring proofe thereof many learned writers both of other Churches and of our owne nation haue vndertaken this matter and haue so directly proued our ministry by the rules of Gods word as that the Papists haue no cause to glorie Now there be two things here which we may wonder at the one how it should be possible that such swelling insolency could be found in the hearts of men grosely ignorant as that hauing read almost nothing and vnderstanding lesse by sundry degrees yet openly vaunt as if they had read all and could finde no such matter The other how men of so contrarie disposition should vse the very same weapon against the Church for this is one weapon of the Papists and now in your hands Ye haue no ministrie of Christ If the reader shal here thinke that I grate too hard vpon Master Barrow who directeth his spéech but against the ministry of our Church the matter is farre otherwise as I will make it appeare for first he denieth the ministry of all Churches in expresse words affirming that there is no ministry in all Europe nor in all these knowne parts of the world Secondly we are to note that although the reformed Churches doo differ sundry of them each from others in the manner of the calling and ordination of ministers yet the defence which the learned writers doo make is generally for the ministry of all those Churches as well for the ministry of the Church of England as of others which haue forsaken Antichrist and preach the Gospell Therefore Master Barrow read all the learned writers which haue stood to maintaine against the Papists that Master Luther Master Caluine Master Bucer Martyre the rest were ministers of Christ and seeing ye will needs fight against God and his truth try your strength and see how ye can gratefie the Church of Rome in ouerthrowing that which all her learnedest patrons are not able to shake more then they be able to shake or remoue a mountaine The ministry of our Church is not you say the ministry of the Gospell or the ministry of Christ but the ministry of Antichrist comming in the life and power of the beast Your reason is that we are the children of the Bishops the Bishops are the creatures of the Pope Against this I did alleage that the popish Bishops haue their consecration and power from the Pope they sweare obedience vnto him to maintaine his dignity religion lawes and ceremonies And also with him doo exercise a power ouer the faith and conscience of men But the Bishops of the Church of England haue not their ordination consecration or power from the Pope but from our Church which hath renounced Antichrist The Bishops of England acknowledge no subiection to the Pope but by anoath haue renounced his vsurped power and tyranny The Bishops of England are not ordayned to vphold and maintaine the religion or lawes of Antichrist but quite contrary they promise and professe to aduaunce the Gospell of Iesus Christ c. They vsurpe not a Lordship ouer the faith and conscience of men Let vs see now what ye bring against this It helpeth not our Bishops ye say any thing that they haue broken their faith and Schismed from the Pope renounced his yoake euen his vsurped power and tyrannie seeing they vsurpe and retaine if not the same yet as Antichristian and enormous a power as the Pope exercising their authoritie and commaundements contrary vnto and aboue all lawes both of God and of their prince page 113. If it be thus our case is hard but Master Barrow remember the old Prouerb a lier needeth to haue a good memorie for in page 181. and 182 you haue quite forgotten what ye had set downe here for there yee doo affirme that the Bishops which died for the Gospell were godly blessed Martyres of whose happie and blessed estate ye doo not doubt Your reason is for that they were not conuinced but did exercise that power ignorantly I pray ye tell me Master Barrowe could they bee godly and had but broken their faith and Schismed from the Pope Could they be godly men exercising as Antichristian and enormous a power as the Pope Yea could they bee true thristians exercising their commaundementes and power contrary vnto and aboue all lawes both of God and man Or could ignorance excuse them in these matters Then tell vs why the Pope might not be a good Christian also before he was conuinced Which way dooth the whéele turne now Master Barrow Ye can neuer be able to bring both ends together in these yee must either condemne those Martyrs or else make the