Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	church_n	faith_n	prove_v	3,810	5	6.3590	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A64381	A true account of a conference held about religion at London, Septemb. 29, 1687 between A. Pulton, Jesuit, and Tho. Tenison, D.D. as also of that which led to it, and followed after it / by Tho. Tenison.	Tenison, Thomas, 1636-1715.	1687 (1687)	Wing T723; ESTC R18602	49,387	102

that Dr. T. knows of with relation to the Contents of it But they laid some weight upon one's writing signing and the other 's refusing Dr. T. had no great value for it for he left it on the Table But it may be it became the more famous for having been put by Mr. P. into his Pocket out of which after much shuffling about it not knowing where to find it he was prevailed with to pull it by the importunity of an ingenious Woman Thus far the Account reach'd which was written with Mr. P's own Hand But in other Copies it was added at the End that Mr. P. desired to meet where Books were and to have a Scrivener If he did he was not in danger of losing what he long'd for For it was more than once when Historical Things were talk'd of that Dr. T. desired that Coaches might be call'd for and that they might go where Books might be consulted And when Offers by Dr. T. were made about a Bible about Beda Aeneas Sylvius Hoveden and others they were refused Dr. T. is certain that the Author of the Speculum if he has been by Books has not been in them But to what purpose is it to go into Libraries when they have already furnish'd the World in the Speculum with Authorities enough and it may purchase them for Six-Pence The Copy of a Letter written by a Romanist and conveyed by the Apprentice of in L. A. to J. S. in order to his transcribing it and sending i● to his Father into the Country Most Dear and Honoured Father NOthing could be more sensible to me than your extraordinary Affection you were pleased to shew in your last and was there any thing less than an Eternity at stake and the saving or losing my Immortal Soul I should have all the repentance in the World of disobliging you Dear Father take therefore a sum of those Motives which oblige me in Conscience to betake my self to the Church I am now resolv'd to embrace The Roman-Catholick Church is allow'd to have been once the true Church built upon the Rock against which our Saviour promised Hell should never prevail whence unless we will give our Saviour the Lye she is still so The Church I am inform'd had power during the four first Centuries to summon and precide in General Councils when any Debate arose concerning Religion and they were reputed Hereticks who obeyed not her Decision Now the same Reason and Authority which proves her to have had that power then proves she must retain it still Again I have heard clearly made out that those or that Church are all of one Faith in all Countries Whereas our Reform'd Churches all clash among themselves and divide and subdivide without end and it can't be otherwise they having no assured Guide upon which they can rely It is the Catholick-Church alone which is taught in all Countries and none but the Pastors of that Church have any Zeal to go among Barbarous and Idolatrous People to convert them and if there be any Faith in History God has seconded their Labours with manifest Miracles Power over Devils and the like And I have never heard of any who can assume that to themselves beside them Again I am inform'd that among them abundance of Noble and Rich People follow the Evangelical Counsels and leave all for God's sake and that they built and founded all those Monuments of Devotion and Churches we see now extant Whereas our Reform'd Religions have only serv'd to pull them down And as I have lastly understood was founded on the Leachery of King Harry the 8th the Ambition of the Tutor of King Edward the 6th and Violence of Queen Elizabeth and only preserv'd by the Rigors of Penal Laws and spilling the Blood of those who for a thousand Years had profess'd the Catholick Faith. All these things I have heard proved with so much shew of Truth that I should resist the Holy Ghost if I obey'd not the Inspiration I have to become a Roman Catholick Dr. Tenison has discours'd before me four Hours but I am more confirm'd than I was before Dear Father Let not the force of Education and Prejudice so by as your Judgment as to be angry with me for the best thing I ever have done in my Life and if you had heard as much as I I am sure you would have that Sense of your Soul as to do as I do All the Stories of their Selling Pardons of their Idolatry and bloody Principles are nothing but meer Calumnies I humbly therefore crave that I may notwithstanding my present Resolution still be esteem'd as I am with all Submission Dear Father Your most Obedient and Affectionate Son. Dr. T 's Notes on this Letter THE Original of this Letter was sent to Dr. T. together with this Account of it After J. S. had copied it and it was seen where he had laid it and was taken from thence Mr. V. asked J. S. whether he had finished his Letter and from what Copy he had taken it He answered from no Copy he urg'd him thrice and he still denied it At last Mr. V. brought forth the Original and shew'd it to him c. then he was silent instead of begging Pardon of God and his Master The Author of the Letter fail'd in his own Art of Cunning for he endeavoured to write an accurate Letter for a Boy who is not able to write one correct Line as is plain by that which may be seen in his former Letter to his Father He should not have perfumed his Paper if he would not have had the Protestants to smell him out 1. He begins the first Motive by saying and by taking that for granted which no Protestant will yield to him that the Roman Catholick Church is allowed to have been once THE True Church This first Motive is a Fallacy of The Church for A Church The Roman was once A true Church but never The Church and a true Church may fail in Process of Time as some of the seven Churches of the Lesser Asia did and St. Paul caution'd the Romans themselves against immoderate Confidence lest They as well as the obstinate Israclites should be cut off 2. The second Motive is taken from the Power of the Church to summon Councils and to preside in them This is the same Fallacy again of the Power of The Church in General and of the particular Church of Rome whose Popes were sometimes condemned by Councils which the Emperors summon'd It is absurd to say that the Church presides over the Council and they who presided had Priority by it for that season but not further Power Mr. Pulton's or Mr. Ward 's Speculum shews Sylvester as presiding at the first Council of Nice but when he recollects himself and finds he should have represented Hosius instead of Sylvester for he was not as is pretended his Legat he will I suppose not be so liberal of Power to the President of a Council

to assign the Holy Scriptures To which A. P. reply'd that there were c two things incumbent on the Doctor to prove 1. That the Books which he called the Scripture were truly such 2. That when so prov'd they were of themselves a sufficient Rule But to the second Point nothing was said To the first the Doctor replied that their Bible had been handed down from the Apostles A. P. desired to know by what Hands The Doctor answered by the Testimony of d all the World Turks Jews Gentiles and Christians But A. P. urging to know from what immediate Hands the Church of England had received them when she began to reform The Doctor answered From the Universal Church and that he meant by Universal Church all those e different Bodies who make up the whole Number of Christians Then A. P. demanded Whether those different Bodies of Christians made one true Church or no Or whether some one Part of them were so The Doctor tho much press'd would specify no Part which he acknowledged free from Corruption Upon that A. P. desired to know how the Doctor could make out that his Bible was the pure and uncorrupt Word of God if all those from whose Testimony he took it were corrupted and consequently false Witnesses and what Assurance he had f the sense of Holy Scripture being as he said depraved the Letter remained pure Here g a pleasant School-Master diverted the Auditory with a Picture as he said of the Blessed Trinity and offer'd it A. P. with wry Mouths and Antick Gestures But A. P. saying he saw no Reason why God appearing to Daniel under the Figure of an old Man might not be so painted provided one meant not to delineate him specie propriâ He return'd to the Doctor and press'd his forementioned Argument but the Schoolmaster continuing to give Diversion to the People and throw in impertinent Questions A. P. desired him to be silent saying he came not to dispute with a Buffoon but a Doctor which was ill taken Dr. T. read a Lesson of Charity upon that occasion endeavouring to prove that A. P. had violated the Holy-day And when Mr. M. said in A. P's Defence that h S. Paul had used as sharp Language in a like occasion The Doctor replied that if A. P. was St. Paul he might so do When the Doctor had done his i Harangue A. P. returned to his Argument and much importun'd the Doctor to make out how he was assured his Bible was the pure Word of God and not as full of Corruption and Falshood as he believed those to be from whom he received it Here the Doctor call'd k Mr. M. from the Window whither A. P. had desired him to retire that no Body might argue against the Doctor but himself and instead of answering the Difficulty began a private Parly with Mr. M. And l A. P. could never obtain any thing like a Satisfactory Answer to his Difficulty propos'd In the end he answer'd the calling the Authority of Scripture in question disposed to Atheism A. P. reply'd he believed it might in their Principle who having taken all Infallibility from the Church could assert none for the Scripture This Debate lasted upwards of 2 Hours when the Doctor threw in several By-questions about St. Peter's being at Rome m which when A. P. was ready to prove n the Doctor passed to the Real Presence and Transubstantion A. P. demanded of the Doctor whom he would be judg'd by not being able at this time to obtain any Answer to the first and chief Query The Doctor replied by the Universal Church A. P. demanded whether by the Universal Church now in being or by that which had been in the four first Centuries The Doctor said that of the four first Centuries A. P. asking how we should know the Judgment of those Times The Doctor answered by the Testimony of the Fathers then living Then A. P. naming several and proffering to begin with which the Doctor pleased o he desired to hear St. Ambrose A. P. thereupon read one out of his 4th Book de Sacramentis which the Doctor noted down and required A. P. to put his Hand to it which he refus'd for the present but said as soon as he had produced his whole Evidence he would then sign it But the Doctor plainly refused to hear any more saying that the rest would prove like that which he believed to be of a Spurious Author To which A. P. replied that if he doubted of that Work he would cite another of the same Author 's to the very same Intent of an unquestionable Work. But the Doctor refused absolutely to hear it And continued to press A. P. to subscribe He answered that he would when all his Witnesses were heard and with much ado after about 3 quarters of an hour after twenty endeavours he obliged the Doctor to hear of Justinus his Apology to Antoninus Pius p but that the Doctor would not note down or hear one word more which seeming unreasonable to Mr. M. he asked the Doctor using his own Instance whether or no if one should come to pay him a q a Sum of Mony and the first piece might appear somewhat dubious he would refuse the rest upon that account especially if the Party was content to change it in the very place Now this Paper it is which has made all the great Noise as though the Doctor having summ'd up the whole Discourse A. P. should refuse to sign what he had asserted In this Debate the Parties rising up the Doctor was pleased to say that r the Papists were by their Principles Breakers of their Word and proved against A. P. thus You believe yours to be the only saving Church but you are bound to save all you can therefore you are bound to break your Word given in your Paper of Rules of your Schools of not tampering with your Scholars in Matters of Religion A. P. replied that it was a very injurious Assertion and prov'd no more against him than his Majesty which he thus proved His Majesty believes his to be the only Saving Church but his Majesty being Head of his People is bound to endeavour to save them as much as A. P. to save his Scholars therefore according to the Doctor 's Argument his Majesty is bound to break his Word given to his People of not forcing their Consciences This Reflection was ill taken and A. P. said he was willing to believe the Doctor spake it not with any such Intention but added that it was ill done to vent such Propositions whence naturally and unavoidably ensued so bad Illations Then A. P. answered directly that no body was bound always to do all the good possible And that to teach gratis Learning with the Fear of God was very well done although one medled not with Religion and defied the Doctor to bring the Scholar where note that the Boy on whose account the Dispute was held was no Scholar that ever heard him touch a

a place of Scripture who should be judge D. T. answered there was no need here the case was plain especially if this Text was further compar'd with one in Deuteronomy and that if the Roman Church should make an Interpretation the sense of the words of that Interpretation would as much need a Key as the easie Text it self D. T. added that Christ's Church was not then throughly formed and that the Rule had some respect to the extraordinary state of those times in which it was not so proper to go to the ordinary Courts the Judges being unbelievers A Romanist not so well known by D. T. offered something in confutation of this but D. T. told him that if he would bring an Authentick interpretation out of some of his Church Books he would hear it But if not and at that he did not offer then he as a Romanist would say nothing to the purpose but argue as he says the Protestants do out of their own head At last Mr. P. and D. T. came to the Quotations again and then it was resolved that D. T. should write of this matter and of S. Ambrose S. Cyril and Justine Martyr c. to M. P. and receive his Answer and reply as often as there was just occasion given After this D. T. said to Mr. P. there was one thing remaining and fit to be said to him he had in a printed Paper promised not to tamper about Religion with the Protestant Boys who should come to the Savoy-School it had appeared that he tampered with Boys out of his care and would do so much more with those under it He said it did not follow because of his word which he would not break and that for this Boy he had done it in order to his everlasting Salvation D. T. answered that being your Principle that all out of your Communion are damned you being a Jesuite and a Papist must break your word in tha● Paper for the necessary good as you think of the Souls of the Boys especially you having hope of turning Boys under your Care. Mr. M. said to D. T. This reflects upon the King. Another more aloud this reflects upon the King and suggests that he will break his word and Mr. P. joyned in the Accusation but many of the Hearers cryed out against them and said it was a knavish trick Mr. M. was going away D. T. called to him and desired him not to run away with a false Tale. Mr. M. denied he said such words D. T. told him he did and that for his part he thought his Loyalty at this time to be more valuable than Mr. M's because he as a Son of the Church of England professed he would not rebel against the King notwithstanding he might be of another Religion whereas Mr. M. being of the same Religion could not so well separate Loyalty from Interest D. T. being concerned at this false and unworthy way of catching men did say to Mr. M. at the Door of the first Room that if he had persisted in this Trick he could not have forborn to have given him the name of Evidence Meredith Then D. T. desired Mr. P. and Mr. M. to go from the throng into the back Room and to talk a little where there was less heat and noise But Company follow'd thither too and there some things were repeated and some new things started about a Judge in Controversie about the Head of the Church about Berengarius but nothing was pursu'd Mr. M. took leave and just at the Door muttered something about Penal Laws Mr. P. was following and D. T. said to him that it was always his way to pity the people of differing Assemblies but that for such as his Order who had taught excluding and deposing Doctrines and brought in a foreign Jurisdiction it seemed fit to keep up some Laws against them Mr. P. deny'd that his Order taught any such Doctrines Mr. D. A. C. asked him what he thought of Suarez and Mariana M. P. asserted that the Pope had had a right of Jurisdiction here a thousand years and that D. T. ought not therefore to call it foreign D. T. said those were dangerous words soon after this Mr. P. took leave it being now late in the Evening D. T. staid a while and there was brought up to him out of the Shop the aforesaid Question of Mr. Meredith left with the Boy and written in the same hand with the few words which Mr. Meriton had begun to write upon the back of D. T 's Paper It was said to the Boy that he should have an Answer to that Paper if he came in the Morning to D. T. 'T was not thought fit by Mr. U. and his Wife that the Boy should come lest having been found to be so great and malicious a Lyar he should invent and spread some new Tale or other But Mrs. U. came her self and carried back a little Book in which an Answer to that Question was contain'd During the Conference the Son of Mr. J. a Roman came to a Constable and desir'd him to go to Mr. U's where the Father Mr. P. was in danger of being kill'd The Constable saw how little need there was for the Exercise of his Authority Next Morning came to Mr. U's the Roman who said if he was not in Orders he hoped to be so his pretended Errand was good Counsel to the Boy in Relation to his Master and Mistress who had complain'd that since he had been in this new way he had troubled the House mis-spent his time and become an intollerable Lyar and he pointed the Boy to a place or two of Scripture about Obedience but by and by the great design of his coming appeared for he ask'd the Boy if he was now satisfied in his Religion Both they and the Protestants knew that he was gone before and they had been told how much worse he was in his Morals since he had been tamper'd with and the Boy had owned to D. T. in his Closet that he had been often at Mass. And D. H. before this Conference had concluded him gone over and the Boy was already taught how to fence in this matter as may appear by his Letter to his Father September 20th upon his hearing the Contents of the Letter his Father had sent to Mrs. U. on September 17th she having given notice of the strange Alteration made in his Son. There came also a Woman to Mr. U's to be satisfi'd in these Questions whether there had not been a Conference there Whether there had not been five Ministers of the Church of England there against one Jesuite who put them all to silence whether Mr. U. and Mrs. U. were not stagger'd in their Religion upon this Conference Whether a Gentlewoman of the Church of England was not after the Conference fallen distracted And when she heard that there was but one Minister there and no putting of him to silence and no distraction and further Confirmation of Mr.