Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n
Text snippets containing the quad
|
ID |
Title |
Author |
Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) |
STC |
Words |
Pages |
|
B02682
|
A dialogue or discovrse betweene a Parliament-man and a Roman-Catholick, touching the present state of recusants in England. And shewing how from time to time they have alwaies maintained their religion by treason and conspiracies.
|
|
1641
(1641)
|
Wing D1368A; ESTC R175947
|
4,988
|
9
|
be supreame of the Church None of your selves beleive it nor any Christian Religion or sect did ever before Henry 8. Professe such a tenent and Master Calvin in his relation de Valentiniano Theodosio and Saint Ambrosio strongly opposing this fond assection calls them who first gave this title to Henry 8. Homines inconsiderati and concludes erunt enim Blaspemi cùm vocarent ipsum summum Ecctesiae caput sub Christo. Prot. I could wish all the papists of England were of your opinion in the point of disposition it would then perhaps be better for them but the contrary doctrine is more generall amongst you and thence doe follow most dangerous sequels and sometimes most enormous effects your Divines tell you that 't is lawfull for any Catholicks Subject to take armes against his Prince if he be either an Hereticke or an open persecutor of the Roman Church nay that it is no sinne to kill him either by private treachery or publique assaults and of this we have seene in our age divers lamentable examples practised abroad and some most execrable attempts here at home Cath. Truly Sir your Divines as Luther Calvin and others are more foreward in this point then any Catholicke I know and their practises have farre exceeded ours except perhaps the Powder Treason but that was Diabolicall beyond measure Prot. Well you will never wash off the infamy of that powder-plot you know what proofes were brought in against your Iesuites before the Lords Commissioners at that time Cath. Sir you know I am neither Priest nor Iesuite and I thinke there is never a Catholicke Gentleman in England but doth abhorre and detest that wicked conspiracy as much as any Protestant of you all And sure King Iames knew well that this monster was hatched in the breast of some particular Catholickes See his Proclamation November 7. His wordes are these We are by good experience so well perswaded of the loyaltie of divers of our Subjects of the Roman religion that they doe as much abhorre this detestable conspiracy as we our selves Prot. But I could object more disloyalties if the time would permit then you can answere too and the root thereof spring from your seminary Priests who by their power and authority have a maine sway over your consciences and under pretence of Religion can bend your passions to their owne endes and designes Cath. Sir I confesse some thinges may be objected in that kind worthy the reflection of a good common-wealths man but if you be pleased to use your clemency towards your poore Catholicke Subjects and graciosly to conceive at their subsistance you shall finde them ready to conspire with none nor aime at their owne temporall good but by the advancement of your common-wealth whereof if once you vouchsafe to admit them as worthy members the Popes power shall no way hinder their obedience to his Majesty and you Prot. I could wish your Priests would do so too but I see not how we can expect such loyalty at their hands and therefore you see his Majesty hath proclaimed their banishment And surely if we had suffered the Popes agent to continue here he would have had a care of his Masters interests without doubt Cath. Sir how fit it may be to suffer an Agent from the Pope in a State generally Protestant intermixed with some Catholicks I will not dispute but for the banishing of our Priests meerely for exercising their function t is in vaine you may hang them at your pleasure but as long as there remaines a Catholicke in England there will be Priests because we beleeve that we have an essentiall dependance and necessity of Priests And therefore Priests will venture their lives for the salvation of our Soules 'T is and ever hath beene the spirit of our Church and Religion when all comes to all you will finde that a moderate hand over us is more Christian more humaine and more politick Prot. Sir If you could finde a way how wee might bee secured of the fidelity of your Priests and that their dependance of Rome and affection to forraigne states were not obnoctious and liable to our just suspitions I could bee content Recusants lived amonst us in a civill intelligence and ordinary friendship But you see wee are so zealous of them that we have rather permitted strangers forraign Priests to reside in hir Majesties Chappell though with no little danger for 't is a wonder that the more zealous sort of our people have not made some tummults and uproares seeing the Chappell so frequented as it was and you know we cannot bee so secured of any strangers fidelity to our Countrey especially if they be Priests and of a different Religion and daily frequent both Court and Towne being imbolâ—ned in that they are not liable to our Lawes for besides their zeale to Religion they are naturally inclined to give notice of what they heare and favour in what they can their owne Countries interests Cath. Truly sir I doubt not but I can clearely show you how you may be secured of the loyally of some of our Englsh Priest and how their dependance of Rome may bee of that nature as shall give you no just occasion of suspition and therefore might bee admitted upon those termes and conditions as would banish all suspition and prevent all dangers Aâ— for her Majesties Chappell trie the Articles of her marriage agreed upon betwixe the two States ratified under the broad Seale of each Kingdome it would be against the law of Nations and unworthy the fidelity of a Christian Prince to infringe and violate such a publique contract alas Sir consider that now whilest you happily are sitting at the sterne of the Common-wealth and piously endeavouring to reforme the corruptions and abuses of our Courts and government as also respectively seeking to vindicate the ancient liberty of our Countrey shall we only your poore Catholicke Subjects be excluded from this generall Iubilee take then some moderate course to secure your selves of our allegiance and let us all conspire to make one Civill Body that joyned and united both in your domesticke interests and in your forraigne leagues and warres we may as your Catholicke Allies doe engage our selves as willingly and as farre as you Did not King Iames say well a too severe persecution makes men desperate Non coercet sed provocat violentia Clemency begets love love breeds loyalty Prot. If these your tenents were common to all Papists I conceive you would finde us more indulgent Therefore me thinkes it were worthy your labour to draw such a Proclamation of your fidelity as you thinke Papists might lawfully take and as would perhaps content our Parliament Cath. Sir I framed the last Winter p ivately to my selfe a short petition in the behalfe of Catholickes and have since added thereunto such a Protestation as you speake of here they are peruse them I pray and if you thinke fit make your mederate friends pertakers of them whom if they satisfie I shall be heartily glad if nothing will serve but our totall ruine Gods will be done at least it will be a comfort to have given this testimony of our allegiance and fidelity so that if we perish it must needs be for our religion since the past crimes of some few and the disputable opinions of others can never be a legall warrant to condemne the innocent the next time we meete you will tell me more in the interim God be with you FINIS
A DIALOGUE OR DISCOVRSE betweene a Parliament-man And a Roman-Catholick Touching The present state of Recusants in ENGLAND And shewing how from time to time they have alwaies Maintained their Religion by Treason and Conspiracies Printed in the yeare 1641. A Dialogue or Discourse betweene a Parliament-man and a Roman Catholick Catholike SIR What are your Senators resolved to ruine all Catholickes Prost We shall proceede against you according to the Lawes Cath. But the Lawes sometimes may be suspended for when the cause and motive of the Law doth universally cease the Law it selfe may be anulled Prot. True but not in our case for the motives which heretofore induced our Parliaments to enact Statutes against Recufants doe still continue neither are they as yet universally ceased Therefore the neglect of putting them in execution is both offencive to God and dangerous to our State Cath. Yet I cannot see why the suspention of a rigorous hand and a charitable moderation of your illimited power over a small number of poore Catholickes can breede a scruple in your Conscience on bee offencive to Almighty God for although in your opinion the Religion of Catholicks be false and consequently that your zeale to the Truth doe urge you to suffer no miscreants among you yet this zeale being onely grounded upon the literall text of the Scripture interpreted by your selves how can you thinke that the explication of this sacred authority is so evident as that hee may justly bee punished who will not adheare to your opinion But however may you not in sure charity without offence to God suffer us to live amongst you with intention to bring us to the knowledge of you deeme to be truth and so with intention to make us of your Religion This you see is the practise of other Nations both Catholickes and Protestants to admitt and to lerate among them such as professe a different beliefe from theirs It is so you know in France Spaine Germany Swevia Polonia Muscovia Turkey Persia c. will you onely be more scrupulous then all the Christians of Europe and more severe to your own Country men then Turkes and other Heathen Princes Prot Could I bee perswaded that such a connivence at Recusants were not hurtfull to our present governement and that the Roman Catholik could be true and loyall subjects to a Protestant King or Common wealth I would never give my voyce to have them used with rigour and severtity but you Papists are much pemitious to our State Therefore it is not your Religion but Treason that we punish Cath I confesse this severity sprung not onely from the motives of State and Policie but was much exasperated by the rigorus proceedings of the Court of Rome and by the factious combinations and seditious plots of some few busie bout feux of the Roman faith Yet I am confident that our Religion doth not teach us any thing contrary to the fidelity we owe to our King and Country though Protestants yea even though they persecute us Ptot But I can tell you that the vast ambition of the Court of Rome their continuall practises endeavours to conserve augment their greatnesse and the Popes primacy pretended authority to create and depose Kings and Emperours were able to make us Iealous of you but I will onely speake of the speciall power which you generally give him over Hereticall and Schismaticall States and Princes as our State and King is in your opinion Cath. In this many wise and experienced Catholickes doe blame the ambition of the Court of Rome as well as you And as for the Popes power of creating Kings there is now no Prince will either expect or desire creation from him Prot. How ever you see that our case is different from the case of Catholicke Princes for you say that the Pope can depose Kings for Heresie or Schisme and this is a generall tenent amongst you or for joyning in league and alliance with Protestant States nay for notorious vices and some of you adde even for insufficiency and in all these cases the Pope himselfe must be judge And what Protestant Prince can be secure supposing this doctrine be true and that the Popes party either forraigne or domesticall be stronger then such a Princes Do you not hold that the Pope can absolve the subjects of such a King from their allegiance and hath he not done it here in England Did not his Nuncio in Spaine solicite for many yeares together to have an Armado sent against this Kingdome And was not this effected at the instance and pursuit of your English Iesuites did not Cardinall Allen write and print a seditious letter by the Popes command to stirre up the Papists of England to rebellion Was not Queene Elizabeth excommunicated and deposed by the Pope Did not Dolman write a Book by the Popes order to disprove Queen Elizab. Title to the crown and to transferre it upon Portugall These are your tenents and your practises must needs follow upon all occasions which if sometimes they do not it is not for want of Principles to make them good in your conceit but for want of power to put them in execution and therefore we conclude that both the Pope and you do but expect a fit oppertunity to blow up both our King and Parliament and set up your Religion Cath. Those authors which you seeme most to point at too too much favouring the Popes authority in temporall affaires have beene deservedly condemned by our Catholicke Vniversities and their bookes publiquely burned by the order of Catholicke Magistrates And for my part I shall not thinke him innocent or a worthy member of this Common-wealth that will not acknowledge his faithfull loyalty and constant allegiance to our King and countrey though Protestants independent of all forraigne or papall authority Prot. Why doe you not then at the least take the Oath of allegiance Though perhaps for the oath of supremacy there may be some more difficultie in it Cath. Sir if you onely intend to be secured of our allegiance we shall easily agree but to make us decide a question disputable in Schooles by swearing an universall negative to what effect I pray For although in my opinion the Pope cannot depose any absolute Prince though an Hereticke no not in any case of his owne power or by any authority inherent in his person or dignity nor doe I thinke that any indifferent man will say that the Pope can depose King Charles that now raigneth much lesse that he can absolve his Catholike Subjects from their allegiance due unto him Wherefore as wise States-men you ought not to make us sweare to this or that universall tenent in points proble matically disputed by Divines but to secure your selves of our particular allegiances and fidelity to our King and Countrey which you may justly exact of us and we as justly performe And for the Oath of Supremacy 't is a meere folly to imagine that any secular or Lay-men can