own men § 3. Thus that Church hath grievously erred and in more then one fundamentall And yet the Catholick hath been alwayes visible though oft-times invisible at Rome unlesse errors and heresies prove Catholick because professed at Rome 5. All this your Tutors reply not to nor hardly take notice of but have directed you to fall from your former desires upon new questions tempting me as the Pharisees did our Saviour but resolving to receive no answer Thus you put me to more trouble not with a mind to be satisfied but meerly to cavill and to slide over those arguments and testimonies which they are not able to answer or disprove Is not this to speak nothing lest you should seem to be silent Are these things which I have delivered true or false If true (k) A quâ—cunque verum dicitur illo inspirante dicitur qui ipse veritas est Aug. ep 28. let truth prevaile If false disprove them if impertinent manifest it Otherwise if you thus seek evasions you will enforce me to acquaint the world with your shifts and shufflings by publishing these papers that every eye may discern what is the weaknesse of your cause and what your obstinacy 6. Your intent being to decline what you cannot answer you divert me from the former businesse thus (l) n. 2. My originall doubt was say you that sith the Catholick Church must be alway visible and that I could not by my best inquiry finde that a succession of men professing the doctrine of the Church of England had been alway visible that that Church was not the nor any part of the Catholick Church What have I to doe with your originall doubt Your Letter and the expression of your desire I looked upon I endeavoured to satisfie your request and I presume a satisfactory answer was given to your demands that so I might win a soul not so much to our Church as to the Communion of Saints and to lead you out of error into the way of truth That the Catholick Church is hath been and must be alway visible is agreed on both hands But by your best enquiry you could not finde that a succession of men professing the doctrine of the Church of England had been alway visible No more could the Pharisees see the Prophesies that concerned our Saviour though never so visible Alas poore Gentleman little Learning are you troubled with you are not able to search the Scriptures Councels and Fathers as you ought and your enquiry hath been of such as are either ignorant or wilfully blinde and bent to misguide you 7. The doctrine of the Church of England is cleare in our Book of Common-prayer that is the rule for the Laity and such as the true Catholick Church hath alwayes imbraced and continued All therein is positive The Book of Articles is a rule for the Clergy to preserve them from error and much therein is negative He that means sincerely to instruct you so in the right way that you may be a guide to others must give you directions to avoyd the by-paths The positive doctrine of this Church was ever professed and is visible in all Catholick writers But you insist upon no particulars and guile lurks under generalls But I beseech you before you turned over to the Church of Rome why did not you make the like enquiry to finde out a succession of men professing the doctrine of the Church of Rome in those particulars wherein we dissent from them of that Communion If thus you had done you might easily have discerned that that Church is not the nor any part of the Catholick Church if wee goe by your line For the most skilfull of your party are not able to shew such a succession of men in the first 700 years of Christianity 8. But you are pleased to adde that (m) n. 2. to this doubt at our conference I endeavoured your satisfaction by attempting to prove that though the Church of England had not been alway visible at least not seen yet seeing she is but a member of the Catholick Church of which the Church of Rome is another it was sufficient that the Catholick Church had been alway visible in the Church of Rome and other particular Churches though not in the Church of England Good God what foreheads have men Is this could this possibly be my answer Who alwayes justifie that this Church hath been visible since the first or second Conversion though not alwayes under Reformation And for Rome I have demonstrated that the Catholick Church was not alway visible in that City or Diocese § 22 23 29. As also what kind of Church yee had for 450 yeers together § 33. when hardly the form either of Religion or a Church was there to be seen Yet visible it was here when invisible at Rome For you can never shew that this Church was overrun with Montanism Arianism or Eutychianism Yea this was a learned and pious Church when yours was miserably possest with ignorance and impiety Look upon your owne Mr. Pits his Catalogue of our Writers and this will manifestly appeare 9. However then (n) n. 3. that discourse which I sent unto you gave you no satisfaction yet it abundantly clears the questions proposed in your Letter Neither can I possibly expect to withdraw you from that faction who are resolved to receive no satisfaction unlesse we grant that the Church of Rome and those in communion with her are the onely Catholick Church And yet I never reade in Fathers or Councels that to communicate with Rome is either a sure or any token of a good Catholick St. Austine assures us that (o) Aug. quaest Evangel secund Mat. c. 12. they are good Catholicks qui fidem integram sequuntur bonos more 's who hold the undefiled Faith full and whole and observe good manners and those that endevour not to doe this are much to blame While then thus we doe we are good Catholicks But that Faith which we have received from the Apostles and Councels and Fathers we keep whole and undefiled without alteration addition or diminution While they are right we are so If they be out of the way we are content to erre with them Catholicks we are true right Catholicks by Lirinensis rule (p) Vincent Lirin c. 25. Gods truth the Church the body of Christ we love We prefer no mans no Churches authority no affection no wit no eloquence no philosophie nothing whatsoever before Divine Religion and the Catholick Faith These things we set light by and being fixed firme in faith we have determined by Gods grace to hold and beleeve that and that onely which we know to have been held by the Catholick Church universally of old from the beginning of Christianity And whatever new or unheard of doctrine we shall perceive to have been induced by any particular man or Church besides or against all the holy men of God this we understand to proceed from
be so in some of them for that time yet it doth not make that whole Church to be Hereticall or Schismaticall Sir though not admitted by you and your Masters yet it is acknowledged by your own learned men Lyra Stella Almain Platina Onuphrius and others that some of your Bishops have been Hereticall and some Schismaticall And that not for a small time as you seem to imply but for many generations (r) Aventin Annal. Boior l. 5. p. 447. for 450 yeers together they were an infamie to their Order as Aventinus testifies God forbid that I should passe sentence upon every particular person but as a City is rebellious when the Governour and the party prevalent withstand and affront the Prince though many loyall subjects be in that City so when the Bishop and the prevailing part with him fall into heresie that Church is adjudged Hereticall and the denomination is taken from the more eminent and potent faction Thus (s) Socrat. l. 3. c. 29. Sozom. l. 4. c. 10. Rome it selfe was accounted Arian while Bishop Felix communicated with Arians and ordained divers of that persuasion Ministers of that Church And yet blessed be God (t) Theodoret. l. 2. c. 17. Rome at that time had many good people that would not communicate with that Bishop 21. But in the words following it is little lesse then confessed that your Bishops were such as I have related (u) n. 6. For as your next words speak I beleeve you will yeeld that the King of England or Archbishop of Canterbury may be an Heretick or Schismatick and yet the Church of England be still part of the Church Catholick Sir we must distinguish between a professed and close Heretick Those that communicate with a professed Heretick are as he is Hence is it that (x) Theodoret. l. 2. c. 17. Sozom l. 4. c. 10. Felix Bishop of Rome though inwardly Orthodox was adjudged Hereticall for holding communion with the Arians But with a close a concealed Heretick we may communicate and be guiltlesse Thus (y) Act. 8.13 St. Philip communicated a while with Simon Magus (z) 1 Tim. 1.20 St. Paul with Hymeneus and the rest of the Apostles with Nicolaus and were blamelesse But this is to perswade us that your Church was Catholick when your Bishop an Heretick Thus the Popes infallibility is shrunk into heresie it is fallen out of the chaire into the body of the Church and the head shall receive health from the members not the members from the head Whereas anciently the Saints of God judged of the Church by the Bishop not of the Bishop by the Church Yea (a) Concil Nic. Can. 5. the communion of the Church is estimated by communicating with the Bishop and (b) Cod. Eccles Univers can 169 if any whether Priest or other shall sever themselves from their Canonicall Bishop and shall call a Congregation against him or without his directions they are censured to be Hereticks The reason is because (c) Concil Nic. Diatyp 2. the Bishop is as it were the head the life of his Church and (d) Concil Nic. Can. 4. ought not to be ordained without the approbation of all the Bishops of that Province And I know Liberius was ordained with this circumspection Thus the Bishop elected is presumed to be of the same Religion with the rest of the Province and the Province with the Metropolitan Provided therefore it is that (e) Cod. Eccles Univers Can. 5.99.104 the Synod of that Province censure him if he faile of their expectation and depart from the Orthodoxe faith And (f) Ib. Can. 171 172. if they do not they are alike guilty and all that adhere to him or them 22. And for the parties instanced the King of England and Archbishop of Canterbury I beleeve that either or both of them may be Hereticks and this Church not so since it is not their being but our complying that makes us hereticall But if all our Bishops be of the same Religion with them this Church is in an ill case You or I may save our owne soules by not communicating with them by dissenting from them and by protesting against their unsound doctrine But the Church is not to be judged of by you or me but by those that sit in Moses chaire and are (g) 2. Cor. 2.16 either the savour of life unto life or the savour of death unto death For (h) St. Mat. 5.13 if the salt lose its savour wherewith shall it be salted how mended how recovered Surely (i) Ib. it is to be cast forth of the Church out of the dignity it is in and trampled upon as good for nothing This was spoken to the Apostles and with them to their successors But when the King and Priest joyne together it hath a strange influence upon the People for good or bad (k) 4. Reg. 16.10 c. When King Ahaz and Vrijah the Priest professed Idolatry with open face though many good men were resident among them yet was that City and People accounted Hereticall The power of the sword drawes some to sympathize and too many to temporize This is to be seen under the reign of (l) Ista edictorum Imperatoris vi quae in partes Occidentis miserat confecta sunt Socrat. l. 2. c. 29. Constantius Julian Valens and others where we see Religion much depend upon the Imperiall breath But if Prince and Bishop concurre in Religion they hardly meet with opposition Look upon Antioch under Constantius the Emperour and Leontius the Bishop upon Constantinople under Valens and Bishop Eudoxius and you shall see how suddenly they were overrun with heresie Now if it should fall out so unhappily with any or all the Cities of this Kingdome the Diocesan or Nationall Church so infected shall be deemed Hereticall Under K. Edward VI. and Queen Mary the Religion of this Church was judged of by the Governors and thus shall we deal with Rome 23. (n) 6. But if it were granted say you that the Popes of Rome being Schismaticks or Hereticks should annihilate that Church yet that could give me no satisfaction who required not where is not the Catholick Church but where it is that I might communicate with it And I say if the Church of Rome bee annihilated by the Popes Heresie or Apostasie she shall be no Church much lesse the Catholick What then shall become of those Churches in her communion surely they are all in an ill in the same case with her Grant but this and the controversie is at an end You have satisfaction and I ease But this will not serve your turn who now require not where is not but where is the Catholick Church Well if this will give you satisfaction I shall tell you this too The Catholick Church is where ever the Catholick faith is preserved and Apostolick government continued (m) Chrysost in 1. Cor. 12. It hath been dispersed through the whole world though not
presumption thou hast cut off thy self from the body of Christ which is his Church In those days he had no such power How he since came by it is laid open to your and every bodies eyes by Archbishop Lawd § 25. n. 12. 27. But why for the last 1100 years Is it because ye dare not trust to the former ages Wherein we finde (n) Lira in S. Mat. 16. Zepherinus to be a Montanist Marcellinus an Idolater Liberius an Arian and Vigilius an Eutychian All Bishops of Rome but no Catholicks Needs therefore in their times must the Catholick Church be distinct from the Church of Rome Or is it because for tryall of the truth of Religion I appealed to the 500. years next after our Saviour I professe I did and doe so because it is common in these dayes even with those that conscientiously pretend to truth (o) Tanta est quorundam errandi libido ut contenti non sint traditâ semel acceptâ antiquitus credendi regulâ sâ—d nova ac nova in diem quaerant semperque aliquid gestiant religioni addere mutare detrahere Vinc. Lirin c. 26. not to be content with the rule of faith which was once delivered to the Saints and received from them by the Primitive Church and so transmitted to posterity But we have an itching after new inventions and our glory it is either to adde or alter or pare off something from Religion These courses I abhorre with a perfect hatred and am taught to doe so by Tertullian and Vincent Lirinensis Yea some of your owne Bishops have resolved that (p) Ib. c. 9. Religion admits of no other course but this ut omnia qua fide a Patribus suscepta forent eadem fide filiis consignarentur that all things be preserved for the children with the same faith wherewith they were received from the primitive Fathers And (q) Nosque Religionem non quâ vellemus ducere sed potius quâ illa duceret sequi oportere Ib. we must not lead Religion whither we please but rather we must follow whither that leads This was the resolution of Stephen Bishop of Rome an holy and prudent man as Vincentius termes him (r) Ib. c. 43. Xistus likewise and Celestinus are of the same minde they will endure no innovations no additions to Antiquity Oh that Rome had always kept close to this rule then should we have had no such ruptures in the Church as we now complain of and bewaile 28. And reason good we have to appeal to Antiquity which is not partiall towards you or us but indifferent to both (s) Ib. c. 8. She never held it meet to maintain the faction or conspiracy of any one Province but (t) Apud ipsam Ecclesiae vetustatem non partis alicujus sed universitatis ab iis suscepta est defensio Ib. she stood up in defence of the whole Church and not for any part thereof And he can be no good Christian that does otherwise St. Cyprian is altogether for this course (u) Cypr. Pomp. if any thing be amisse he sends us to the spring head to finde out the fault The like counsell is given by Ireneus (x) Iren. l. 5. c. 4. If difference arise about any small question nonne oporteret in antiquissimus recurrere Ecclesias in quibus Apostoli conversati sunt ab iis de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum quod liquidum est ought we not to have recourse to the most ancient Churches not to that in being wherein the Apostles themselves conversed and from those to take that which is certain and clear about the present question Observe from thence we shall have that which is certain Why then shall we content our selves with uncertainties That therefore the third Generall Councell might deal clearly and upon sure grounds with Nestorius (y) Vincent Ligrin c. 42. it took this very course holding it to be Catholicissimum foelicissimum atque optimum factu most Catholick most happy and meetest to be done to take into consideration the sentences of those holy Fathers that were before them Those they took to be their Masters their Counsellors Witnesses and Judges Their doctrine they held close to their counsel they followed to their testimony they gave credit to their judgment they submitted and answerably thereto passed sentence upon the difference then in agitation Blame not us then if we appeal to the Fathers and (z) Vt rite atque solenniter ex eorum consensu atque docreto antiqui dogmatis Religio confirmaretur prophanae novitatis blasphemia condemnaretur Ib. by their unanimous writings judge of Religion that so we may keep to the old Rules and avoyd the blasphemies of profane novelty This was the proper the onely way then known and is now readily to discern without prejudice presumption or partiality whether ye or we be in the right what is Orthodox and what not At this tribunall let us stand or fall 29. All this will hardly prevail with you For say you if this cannot be shewn it will necessarily follow those were the Catholick Church or else the Catholick Church was not alway visible Sir if you can distinguish between man in specie and Socrâ—â—â—s you may quickly distinguish between the Catholick Church and Church of Rome For as man is substantially predicated of many differing in number so is the Church Though St. Peter be a man yet is he not the onely man Judas is a man as much as he they both communicate in the same essence in the same definition the one is as much a reasonable creature as the other And it will not excuse the Church of Rome from being erronious because it is called a Church and hath the same definition with other Churches Good and bad Orthodox and Erronious come not into the definition The onely definition or description of the Catholick Church that I find in Scripture is this (a) 1 Tim. 3.15 The Church is the pillar and ground of truth From whence I argue thus That Church which hath erred is not the pillar and ground of truth But the Church of Rome hath erred Ergo The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth The Major is undenyable the Minor I prove thus That Church which hath professed Montanisme Arianisme Eutychianisme hath erred But the Church of Rome hath professed all these Ergo The Church of Rome hath erred The Major is clear and the Minor is sufficiently proved § 18.27 It follows therefore necessarily that the Church of Rome neither was nor is the Catholick Church And yet the Catholick Church was then visible when the Church of Rome fell from the Catholick faith and ceased to be a Church (b) Euseb hist l. 5. c. 15. Montanus and his Enthusiasmes were censured and condemned by the Bishops of Asia in divers Synods In those dayes when Arianisme prevailed at Rome the Catholick Church was visible (c) Theodoret
Temptation not from Religion 10. Thus we are Catholicks and our Church will prove so too We beleeve the holy Catholick Church we professe it is but one (q) Cypr. l. 4. ep 2. A Christo una as St. Cyprian speaks but one of Christs making though divided through all Nations into many members per totum mundum in multa membra divisa (r) Item Episcopatus unus Episcoporum multorum concordi numerositare diffusus Ib. So the Episcopacy is but one under that great (s) 1. S. Pet. 2.25 Bishop of our soules but it is diffused by the numerous consent of many Bishops One Church and one Bishoâ—rick and yet many Bishopricks which are called Churches and (t) Concil Nic. Diatyp 2. every Bishop is head as it were of that Communion or Church which is committed to his charge (u) Tertull. de Praescrip c. 20. These many Churches small or great una est illa ab Apostolis prima ex qua omnes are that one first Apostolicall Church of whom come all (x) Sic omnes primae omnes Apostolicae dum omnes unam probant unitatem Ib. Thus they are all prime all Apostolick while they all approve one unity (y) Ib. c. 32. This unity is by Tertullian placed in Faith and Episcopall succession Hitherto then we are right for those Churches that have this faith and this successive government (z) Ib. non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae are equally Apostolick with those very Churches which were planted by the Apostles And in the Councel of Ephesus the appeal is not to the Bishop or Church of Rome for tryall of doctrine but to the (a) Vincent Lirin c. 42. consent of the most famous Catholick Bishops that were before them If Rome be judge the work is short we shall quickly have one Religion setled good or bad But the old rule is this (b) Ib. c. 3. Quod ubique quod semper quod ab omnibus that which hath been beleived in all places at all times by all the Fathers that is truly Catholick and nothing else for ought I know 11. This fully manifests that this Nationall Church is as much Catholick and Apostolick as can be desired And yet I cannot expect that this should work upon you who are obstinately prepossessed against all satisfaction I remember A.C. was not ashamed to publish in print (c) A.C. p. 54. that the Lady whom the two Bishops conferred with did not aske the Question as if she meant to be satisfied with hearing what either of them said And was it not is it not so with you Simon Magus will be the old man say St. Peter what he may And (d) 2. Tim. 3.8 as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses so will your corrupt faction resist the truth come what can 12. But you have reason for what you say and this it is (e) n. 3. Because although I said the Church of Rome was a member of the Catholick yet the 19. Article of our Church sayes that the visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithfull men in the which the pure Word of God is preached and the Sacraments be duly administred according to Christs Ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same What is here to displease you Is not all true Refute it if you can deny it if you have the face (f) Ib. But in divers other Articles our Church condemnes the Church of Rome for not preaching the pure Word of God And that 's it that offends you Sir we undertake not to judge your Church but her doctrine we condemne her errors and yet acknowledge her to be a Church (g) Apoc. 2.13 God blames the Church of Pergamos for enduring the seat of Satan within her Diocese as also (h) Ib. v. 15. for holding that odious doctrine of the Nicolaitans and yet grants her to be a Church such a one as it was St. Paul calls the Corinthians (i) 1 Cor. 1.2 a Church but (k) Ib. v. 11. c. 3. he blames their schismes (l) Ib. c. 5. their carnality (m) Ib. c. 11. their disorders in the Church (n) Ib v. 20 c. their prophaning of the Lords Supper and (o) Ib. c. 15.12 charges them with the heresie of the Sadduces Your errors were crept in among us and shall not we dare to call them errors and to teach our Country-men to avoyd them Foure of these that B. Martyr hath charged you with and proves them to be blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits as I acquainted you § 24. You read and turn over and take no notice of what you read This 't is to be led by other mens eyes and to see no further then your new Masters will give you leave 13. Justly we taxe you Art 30. for maiming the blessed Eucharist and for denying the Cup or Blood of the Lord to Lay men As if our Saviour had not shed it for them as much as for us and had not given it to them as well as to us What is the meaning then of these words (p) St. Mat. 26.27 Drink ye all of this or did not the Church of Christ understand what they did when they gave it to Priest and People And how can I communicate with them that will not suffer me to communicate with Christ according to his own Ordinance who deny me that which Christ hath commanded me to take In denying me the Cup ye admit me by halves in truth ye forbid me the Lords Table I withdraw not my selfe I have proved § 11. that in the judgement of the Catholick Church this Sacrament is to be administred to the Laity in both kinds I shall adde therefore with you that (q) n. 4. the Church of Rome doth neither preach the pure Word of God nor duly administer the Sacraments in those things that are of necessity requisite for the same This appears by our departure or as you name it our separation not from you but from your errors As you are a Church we communicate with you wherein ye are erronious we depart from you And in this we relie not upon our owne judgement but (r) In ipsa vetustate omnium vel certè penè omnium Sacerdotum pariâ—er Magistrorum definitiones sententiasque sectamur Vincent Lirin c. 3. submit to the generall resolution of the ancient Fathers The Jews at Gods command (s) Lev. 13.46 separated the leprous from the sound the clean from the unclean and so doe we Though (t) Num. 12.14 Miriam were Moses owne Sister yet did he withdraw himselfe and the whole Congregation from her while leprous But when she was healed of her foule disease both he and the rest communicated with her Cast off your leprous errors and we are for your communion 14. And whereas you adde that (u) n. 4. Archbishop Lawd says it is not lawfull to make