A SOBER DISCOURSE OF THE Honest Cavalier WITH THE Popish Couranter WHEREIN The Author of the Dialogue between the Pope and Fanatick vindicates himself to be an hearty Lover of his Prince and Countrey TO WHICH Is Annexed a Serious Epistle to HODGE By a Person of Quality Principis Patriae scribere jussit Amor. LONDON Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun in St. Paul's Church-yard at the West-End 1680. A SOBER DISCOURSE OF THE Honest Cavalier c Cavalier HOld Sir so much for Trim-Tram though Papacy and Presbytery should depend upon your Moments you must stop till I have a perfect Account of your Popish Courant nay 't is in vain to dispute my Authority there is Liberty and Property in the case Come What News from Rome Couranter Well then if you must I will give you a faithful Report of the Contents of it The old Popish Dons are become meer Fumblers at Politicks and the Jesuite resolves to try the Juvenile Fry and the Apprentices were to have met together under the plausible Pretence of Rosting the Rump and there should have been provided Irish Sauce and the Lads were to have pulled down the Meeting-Houses â—nd let fly their Teuksbury Mustard-Balls and when Rapine had been rampant there should have been sung Te Papam laudamus at the Devil's Chappel Cav What still the old Cheat Is it impossible there should be a Plot but it must be a Popish one Is there no sort of men that have Art and Wickedness enough to Plot against the Government but only the Pope and the Jesuite And do you really fancy that these Youths at London designed any Service to the Old Gentleman at Rome I perceive you have a tender Veneration for Meeting-Houses Now for my part if I were to enter any of those Houses I would neither put off my Hat nor my Shoes for I believe it is no more holy Ground than that of Tyburn and the Howlings and Harangues of both places are much alike I am afraid this Expression should offend you but I assure you I have good Authority for the Resemblance for Alexander Bishop of Alexandria in his Epistle to Alexander another Catholick Bishop tells him That the Arrians had deserted the Communion of the Catholick Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 erecting to themselves Dens of Thieves and if the Meeting-Houses were to be pulled down I am confident it was no Popish Conspiracy for I have reason to believe that the Conventicles in London do the Jesuites as much Service as the Shrines of Diana did the Silver-Smiths at Ephesus and I am perswaded that the Pope would offer as much Money to prevent the Dilapidation of Meeting-Houses as the devout Members of the Church of England have given to repair the Ruines of St. Paul and if an Indulgence from the Pope would do as much Service in Heaven as an Indulgence to Fanaticks does the Pope on Earth we would send for more Advices from Rome than your Packet-ship brings us I am sure these Youths were never the Catechumeni of the Church of England for Popular and Tumultuary Reformations are not consistent with the quiet and obedient Principles of our Religion therefore I have a vehement suspition That the Juvenile Fry you speak of must be the spawn of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 State or City-Troublers a Phrase that defines a Fanatick exactly only it is too long and too ancient for Philo-Judaeus in Flaccum so styled the Isidori a turbulent Faction in Alexandria and I am afraid that your Teuksbury Mustard-Balls would have flown over the Meeting-Houses and fallen directly upon Whitehall St. James's and some would have dropt upon Lambeth As for your Irish Sauce if there be such a Villany in the world as a Popish Plot in Ireland I have one reason more to believe that there is a Fanatick-Design in England for this was the former Method of Rebellion and you know we live in an Age that loves to act by Precedents and there is such a League and Covenant between the Pope and Fanatick that you never knew one begin a Plot but the other took the Advantage and did proceed by Consequence I cannot but censure your rude Expression of Te Papam landamus for besides your putting the Pope into the place of God it looks like a Fanatick Burlesque of that ancient and excellent Hymn of the Church Te Deum landamus But what other Intelligence does your Courant afford us Cour. O Sir The News of a Dialogue between the Pope and Fanatick such a Piece of Paper-Roguery as Cav Hold Be Civil for I am the man Cour. Then you are a Desperate Impudent Seditious Popish Kindle-Coal Pamphleteer Cav I never yet swallowed a Teuksbury-Mustard-Ball nor am I skilled in that Fanatick-Art of Spitting Fire My Religion hath taught me so much Generosity that I think the best return to Rallery is to make no Reply at all only I would not have you call me Desperate for I am far from Despair I do not think the King hath forgot his vexatious Traverses and hazardous Adventures between Worcester and Liege but thinks himself concerned to be as cautious of a Fanatick as he is of a Jesuite but if it were possible for the King to forget the History of his Father's Death and the Annals of his own Life I would not yet despair I believe there is a God who will not long suffer his Name to be abused by Canting Blasphemies and Fanatick Prostitutions And so much for your Raillery let me have an Account of those Crimes with which you charge me Cour. You would tempt those you call Fanaticks to assassinate his Sacred Majesty by remonstrating the Facility and Security of that Villany p. 4. Cav The Life of his Sacred Majesty is of more value to me than all the Fanatick-Blood of Europe and I am so far from suggesting his Assassination that I think since the Days of Daniel no People ever had more reason than we to salute their Prince with that Phrase of ancient Loyalty O King live for ever The Popish Plot being first discovered in a very nice Crisis of State was by some Designing Men inflamed with all the Arts and Aggravations imaginable with a purpose to serve the Fanatick-Interest and this Intrigue was so politickly managed and improved that the Factions grew rampant and the Church of England like the King was brought into the Plot for contriving their own Destruction and none allowed to be Protestants but the Presbyterians and none were thought Enemies to the Pope but his Friends in Conventicles Now I oft thought with horror That in that heat which the Truth of the Plot had occasioned and amidst those Artificial Smokes which cunning Men had raised to attend it a Fanatick had more advantage to destroy the King in that Juncture than a Jesuite and I believe we are more obliged to the Providence of God than the Conscience of those Men that the Mischief was not effected Now can you think that
excellent Credit for the Established Ministry under whose Conduct and Teaching they live Cav I confess if all the Souls in England were under the actual Conduct of the Established Ministry there were some Consequence in your Insinuation but you know very well that there are many Thousands who are bewildred by those Wandring Stars who have no Fixure from Heaven nor Establishment on Earth It was this sort of Seduced People for whom that Reflexion was intended and therefore had you been unpassionate you might have observed That it was the Fanatick's Lot to speak that Passage and as of those of his own Tribe and indeed I do believe That most of those deluded People have no more skill in Primitive Christianity than the Chineses have in Mathematicks And how is it possible they should have a clear Notion of Religion who are led by the Mists of Darkness as St. Jude calls the Schismaticks of old I suppose you have seen the Authentick Speeches of Kid and King the two late Preaching Rebels of Scotland Were not they excellent Professors of Divinity How passionately did they expound some Texts of Moses for the Religious observation of the Scottish Covenant which had no more relation to that Matter than the Chapter of the Cow in the Alcoran of Mahomet And you cannot expect that the People should have more Judgment than their Rabbies And therefore when some of the Captive-Rebels were interrogated for what Reason they took up Arms they Answered for Defence of the Truth And being further examined For what Truth They could give no Account of that And being Catechized they did not know two Articles of the Christian Creed nor one of the Ten Commandments and as for their Duty towards God or their Neighbour I suppose you will easily grant they were never taught such meer Moral Divinity Now pray Sir consider How can such silly Women and uneducated Men who were scarce over taught any other Gospel than that according to the Canticles who never heard any other Divinity besides Fanatick Separations and Enthusiastick Vnions how can these I say he supposed to have any truer Notion of Christianity than the Chineses had in Clock-work But as for that humble and devouter part of the Commonalty who have lived in a constant Communion with the Established Church I believe they have a better Understanding of Christian Religion than most of the Friers of Rome or the People-Drivers of England This Expression may offend you especially when I must tell you I was taught it by Imperial Authority for when the Council of Chalcedon had determined that Controversie for which they were Assembled the Emperors Valent. and Marcian did strictly Command by their Imperial Edicts That all should acquiesce in the Decrees of the Council and did prohibit all Conventicles in this excellent Phrase 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and now proceed Sir Cour. You falsly suggest that there are many unconforming Ministers posted in the Establish'd Church by the Title of Sober and Moderate Men. Cav Sir I heartily wish that Suggestion were false I am infallibly assured That there is a lamentable Corporation in the Cantons of the East-Angles which according to my Map is next door to Roterdam the Living indeed is an Appropriation and managed by Fanatick-Lessees but in this Half-Moon have been posted two or three Non-conforming Ministers who have no more Holy Orders than the Turkish Mufti and here the unfortunate Infants either have no Christendom or else by no better Commission than a Midwife-Authority and the Dead Buried with no more Solemnity than an Ass Whether the Churches Canons have lately forced these uncommissioned Officers to quit the Post I am not yet informed but I am sure That for some years since the King's Restaturation they did desecrate the very Church and had their Pay out of the Parochial Tithes and were adored by the silly Vulgus with the Title of sober and moderate Men But I acknowledg These sort of Men were not principally intended by my Insinuation for I look upon these as Religious Banditi and under a Covenant to war against the Church but I mean such who by Episcopal Orders and Institution have a fixed Station within the Church and yet by Disobedience and Treachery do undermine that Establishment Sr. My Conscience assures me that the Latin Verse which is the Sign-Post to your Popish Courant is a false position as to me but in respect of these Men it will run true Tuta frequensque via est sub amici fallere nomen Tuta frequensque licet sit via Crimen habet I think it might be demonstrated that he is a Non-conformist who not only crosses the Line but comes short of the direct Canon of Conformity Suppose you should lend upon bond to one of your dear Brethren whom ye will not call Fanaticks the full Sum of an hundred pounds of good and lawful English Money to be paid to the above said Couranter at a determined time and when that Period be expired your friend should honestly come and tender you thirty pieces and tell you that he was able indeed to pay the Sum total but having some in his Family who had a great tenderness for Money and did not love the height of Law-conformity that therefore he was resolved he would never pay more than this thirty pound Would you gravely applaud the Prudentials of the man and style it soberness and moderation or would you according to Law call it non-payment Sir do but consider without prejudice whether the Oaths and Obligations of Canonical Obedience are not more Sacred Ties of Conscience than the hand and seal to a Noverint Vniversi and eke also c. but you are so good at Deductions that I will leave you to make the application The honest Divines of the Church of England who for the◠Conscience and Obedience are Branded for High-flyers look upon the Rubricks of the Common-Prayer-Book as indispensible Directions of the Church and as commanded by Authority of Parliament for the act of Uniformity not only establishes those publick Praiers and Offices but commands That all and singular Ministers in any Cathedral Collegiate or Parish-Church or Chappel or other place of publick Worship within this Realm of England shall be bound to say and use Morning and Evening Prayer Celebration and Administration of both the Sacraments and all other the Publick and Common Prayer in such Order and Form as is mentioned in the said Book Entituled the Book of Common-Prayer c. That is according to the Rubricks for that is the only Order and Form of usage Now one of the first Orders which is to be noted in the Common-Praier-Book is that such Ornaments of the Church and of the Ministers thereof at all times of their Ministration shall be Retained and be in Use as were in the Church of England by the Authority of Parliament in the Second Year of King Edward the sixth But I know some humoursome Ministers in the Establish'd Church that dare
Succession of Bishops and Priests they retain a Liturgy they continue the Sign of the Cross and bow at the Name of Jesus and wear the Surplice and seeing in all these things they agree with the Church of Rome Therefore the Church of England are Papists Now from the same Systeme of Logick I thus argue The Turk agrees with the Protestants in their renouncing the Popes Infallibility Supremacy Indulgence Transubstantiation Adoration of Images c. Ergo the Turk is a Protestant Sir I think it just as far from Constantinople to Geneva as from Geneva to Constantinople and when your Cretain Disputers will quit their Sophistry and grant the Church of England to be no Papists then I will be so honest as to protest That the Turk is no Protestant but till then I will defend that the Argument does bene quadrare or in plain English 't is as long as 't is broad Pray Sir do not mistake me for I assure you I am so far from any Alliance to Popery that I dare adventure to converse with that nice Company of Mr. Oates I am sure he never saw me at a Popish Consult in his Life I have had the good Fortune never to know one Jesuite or Romish Priest in Europe but I confess I have no great Fondness for the Words Protestantâ— though I am resolved to live and die in that Religion as it is wisely established in the Church of England and because I am not of the Fanatick-Temper to cavil for nothing but Obstinacy and Humor I will ingenuously give you my Reasons why I have a singular Disgust against that Word Protestant I doubt not but you are so much Dutchified as to understand the Phrase Hogan-Mogan as well as I and to grant Protestant to be a High and Mighty Word in England but yet for all this I do not like it and for these Reasons First My last Intelligence from Adrianople assured me That the Grand Sultan and all his Musselmen are no way Popishly affected but are ready to take the Test against Popery and to renounce all Popish Doctrines and Superstitions with as much Devotion as any Presbyterian in England Now if the meer Protesting against the Pope must be the Essential Character of Christian Religion I confess I cannot tell how to avoid the Consequence but must conclude the Turk to be a Protestant and I think that Name ought not to be so passionately Courted by a Christian that will not distinguish him from a Turk Secondly The Established Church of England though the best Reformed Church in the World yet in great Wisdom does not assume this particular Characteristick of Protestant in all its Articles Canons and Liturgy and therefore I see no reason why I should be so privately enamoured of that Name which the Church never thought fit Publickly to espouse Thirdly The Word Protestant is above four and fifty Degrees of Northern Latitude and hath so large an Arch that it comprehends Quakerism Anabaptism Catabaptism Familism and all the Fanatick Colonies and New-found-Lands of Enthusiasm And though Sir such a Paper-Roguery as the Dialogue may call these men Fanaticks yet you know all sober and moderate men call them Protestants and I acknowledge I have no great kindness for that Word which does level a Cathedral to a Conventicle and makes no distinction betwixt an Archbishop and a Lay-Elder If I were cast upon Japan and some Commanding Japonese would have an Account of my Religion I suppose you would give me leave to answer I am a Christian which is a Sound intelligible to all Nations If I should tell him I was a Protestant he would Fancy that Name to be some particular Sect of Northern Paganism But suppose in my Return I should Land at Thoulon and there some Brisk Monsieurs should demand my Religion now if I should answer I was a Protestant they would run me through all the Compass of Protestant Religion ask me Whether I were a Protestant according to the North or according to the Points of the North and by East or the North North-East or the North-East and by North and so whirl me through more than two and thirty Points before I could come to State my true Position And since our Circumstances require that we must have some other Denomination besides that of Christian I confess I have most Veneration for the Title of Catholick which was of much Elder Date than the Papacy and hath been Confirmed and Conseerated by Three Creeds and Four General Councils and the constant Vsage of the Eastern and Western Churches and though the Ancient Church did in Councils and Publick Confessions protest against the Heresies of Arrius Novatus Eutyches Donatus c with as much Solemnity as ever any did against Popish Doctrines yet they thought it not Wisdom from this Accident to call themselves Protestants but did sacredly retain the old Title of Catholick and notwithstanding the general Signification of the Word Catholick yet I observe that particular Patriarchates and Provinces of the Christian Church did claim a share in this Title for I have seen Imperial and Conciliary Epistles to the Bishops of the Catholick Church of Alexandria Constantinople c. And this Sir before the first Date of your History of Popery I love no Stylo novo in Religion and therefore according to the Old Style I call my self a Member of the Reformed Catholick Church of England Now this Character will distinguish me from the Pope the Fanatick and the Turk that Fiery Triplicity of the World Fourthly I have a Perswasion That if the several Churches which reformed themselves from the Errors and Superstitions of Rome had continued a Succession of Bishops and Priests and had retained the Title of Catholick with some decent Reverence in publick Solemnities all modest Papists would have embraced the Communion of the Reformed Churches and the Pope would soon have been confined to St. Peter's Patrimony But leaving the Pope in possession of that Ancient Title of Catholick and assuming to our selves a New Style which the Church never knew for 1500 years was as mighty an advantage to Rome and as great a mischief to the Reformation as our Enemies themselves could have designed for this gave occasion for many to conclude That our Church had no Elder Epocha than the Augustan Confession and that our Religion was as new as the Title of it How many Proselytes this great Scandal though little Argument hath gained the Church of Rome I leave to unpassionate men to consider and whether the Jesuite have not used all his Arts to render this Word Protestant as Sacred and Venerable as he can is not unworthy of Suspition or Enquiry I know there are many good Men who never well thought of this Matter who with great Innocence glory as much in the Title of Protestant as the Ancient Martyrs in that of Christian and I openly declare without any Masquerade That I do as sincerely abhor all Papal Usurpations Innovations and Superstitions as
if I had intended to have acquainted the Fanaticks as I call them with this Advantage and security of Assassination that I would have Published the Mystery No sure I should have gone to * An House of Vanity or a Conventicle Bethaven and whispered the Matter to some of the Secret Ones but I thought to publish the Danger was a very honest Method to prevent it But I observe you are very Civil to the King and call him Sacred Majesty and so indeed he is by the Style of Religion and Law but I am afraid that men of your Temper do never complement Princes but when they are above your affronts and you will allow the King to be Sacred so long as he can assert his Majesty but if ye can devest him of his Sovereignty and reduce him into condition to be affronted then he shall be Charles Stuart again and his Family no more jure divino than that of the late Vsurper There are a sort of men in England who treat their Princes as the Pagans did their Deities call them Sacred and pay them adoration and Sacrifice as long as their humours are served and their Interest indulged or under some present air but like them they must have their Gods inclosed in narrow shrines and in a Storm if the wind do not favour their course they will affront their Numen which before they adored and having him upon the chain will whip him into compliance But these men I speak of under the rose to use your own Parenthesis have out-done those Pagan Insolencies and in a Tempest of their own raising cast their Deity overboard because he would not answer their unreasonable Addresses And here Sir in plain dealing which you call Impudence I will give you my Sence of Popish Plots I am so far in this matter from being an Infidel that I believe the Popish Plot is as old as the Reformation and that there have been no times since the happy Inauguration of Queen Elizabeth without some Trains and Jesuitical Consults to subvert the establisht Government of Church and State except the times of our late confusions for then there was no need of Plotting when the Jesuite by his Fanatick Engines had effected the ruine of Church and Monarchy and so sate down in ease and triumph and founded Colleges in those days which made such a noise in these No sooner had God by a Miracle restored the King to his Crown and the Church to its orderly Establishment but the Popish Mines were framed anew and the Jesuite proceeds in course to consult our ruine and as for those men that opened the Vault and discovered the Mine in our late Critical Juncture may they find that reward which their truth justice and honest intentions deserve Now that which gives the Pope such a peculiar Envy to the Church of England is this By our Episcopacy and Priesthood by our publick Confession of the Ancient Creeds by our well-composed Liturgy and by solemn Decency and Order in publick Devotions We retain the Face of an Ancient Catholick and Apostolick Church and if we should continue undisturbed for some Ages the Beauty and Eminency of our Primitive Christianity might have such an Influence upon most part of Christendom That they would discover the Cheat of Popish Supremacy and Innovations and reform according to our most excellent Model of the first 400 years but I am confident if this Monarchy and Hierarchy were destroyed and Fanaticism had the Regency of England that the Pope would be at no farther charges for the carrying on of Plots for such a Chaos of Fanaticism would serve as an excellent Foil to commend the Beauty of the Romish Church and might add many Proselytes to that Religion but for want of Foundation and Argument they would be so unable to contend with the Papacy that the Pope would not think them worthy of his Designs If there be not some Truth in this pray give me a Reason Why since the Reformation we never heard of so many Popish Plots against Holland and Geneva as against the established Government and Religion of England Cour. You have impudent Reflections upon the King and Parliament c. Cav I confess the Reflections you point to were very impudent but in that consists their Propriety The Pamphlet was a Dialogue between the two immortal Enemies of the King and Church and I thought that wise and honest men would not mistake those rude Expressions for the Sentiments of the Author for if I had made the Pope and Fanatick to have spoken Civilly of Princes and talked like honest men and good Subjects I had misrepresented the Scene and perverted the Nature of the Beast for had you been with me at Leicester-Election and heard those rude Fanatick Clamors against his most Sacred Majesty and seen their Affronts to the Loyal Gentry and Clergy you would have thought that I had managed the Fanatick with great Prudence and taught him to speak with more Modesty and Manners than he would have been guilty of had he been left to his natural Idiom But if you will have my own Sence I look upon the King to be as God's immediate Delegate in the Government of these Nations and therefore reckon a Libel against my Prince to be but one Remove from Blasphemy I have a very great Honour and Veneration for his Grace the Duke of Lauderdale and I do not question but that Noble Lord whose Wisdom hath contributed very much to the Safety of Three Kingdoms will easily discern That the Author intended no Dishonour to his Name by that honest Rudeness of Lucifer or Lauderdale Cour. You have an impudent Reflexion too upon those of the Long Robe p. 4. Cav I believe there never was more worthy and Loyal Men under the Long Robe than there is in this Age but you know there was once a Society less Numerous and more Sacred that yet had one Traitor that wore the Pallium and among so many Thousands that are used to carry the Bag it would be little less than Miracle if there should not be found two or three who would betray their Lord to an High Court of Justice if there were a Jewish Sanhedrim to tempt them with the Silver pieces Cour. You ridicule Sir E. B. G's Murder and scornfully call him that meer Shadow of a Knight Cav I had as great a value for Sir E. B. G. and as serious a Sense of his Murder as you but you know from his thin Body he was usually called The Ghost and being to speak the Sense of his Enemy I thought the Shadow of a Knight might have been a pardonable Phrase for my part I am so far from making a Ridicule as you call it of that Worthy Person that I look upon the Blood of Sir E. B. G. as the most substantial Evidence of the Popish Plot. Cour. You affirm The Common People of England have no more Judgment in Theology than the Chineses had in Mathematicks an