out of the Church What sayth the Rej. even Sitting at the Communion and a communion-Table Yea say we even these if they can be prooved to bee Ceremonies of mans invention 3. From the former consideration the Defen was challenged for having gone about to deceive us often times before by confounding all circumstances of order and decency with properly called Ceremonies whereas now in the winding up of all he confesseth that they cannot be properly called Ceremonies except they be significant The Rejoynder his answere is that all such circumstances are some way significant though not symbolically because they signifie some way what is to be done or where or when or why or how Now though every circumstance doeth some way argue that whereof it is a circumstance and so in a large sense may bee called a signe of it yet 1. every circumstance is not a signe of what is to be done because some have no place untill the thing be done 2. Both the Def. and Rej. have hitherto confounded indicant and symbolicall signes except onely one place where for a shift the Rej. sayth Beza differing in phraze from other Divines meaneth by Symbolicall Sacramentall signes pag. 264.265 Heere therefore to distinguish them is to confesse their former dealing not faire 4. If all circumstances belonging to time place person instruments or manner of actions sacred be sacred significant Ceremonies then not the Clocke onely but the leaden weights of it not the ground onely upon which men stand in worship but the Rushes also strowed by occasion upon it or the Besome wherewith it is swept not the Preachers voyce onely but his black Cap his comely heard not the Communion Table-clothe onely but the colour of it not distinct speaking onely but every Preachers proper Tone are sacred significant ceremoniall Weights Rushes Bezomes Caps Beards Colours Tones c. See what an argument the Def. made against us according to the Rej. his explication If Signes Indicant that is such as by the nature of the things themselves without any religious signification put upon them by institution are lawfull then Symbolicall signes that is those which teach a spirituall duty by their mysticall instituted signification cannot be unlawfull In striving to helpe the Def. out of the water hee hath sunke and followed him deeper in then before he seemed to bee plunged 5. Calvin said the Def. and some other doe accuse some Popish Ceremonies because they are dumbe They accuse them also answereth the Repl. for speaking as the Scripture doth condemne images both for being dumbe and also for teaching lies Well said saith the Rej When the Ceremonies are altogether dumbe they condemne them for not speaking when they speake idly or falsely they condemne them for speaking amisse But you condemne them simply for not being dumbe But heer is a great mistaking of the Rejoynders For we condemne humane Ceremonies for speaking idely that which Gods Ordinances doe sufficiently speak and falsely also for their manner of speaking as if they had just commission to speake in Gods name when they have not When an image of the blessed Virgine spake in the Church to Bernard good morrow Bernard good morrow Bernard answered 〈◊〉 Madam you forget your Sexe it is not lawfull for a woman to speake in the Church The Scriptures also condemned the same image for standing at other times dumbe in the Church Even so we condemne humane Ceremonies both for standing in the Church dumbe and unprofitable and also for speaking in such a place idely and above that which beseeme their Sexe or degree I repeat therefore againe not as a meere jest in which name the Rejoynder putteth it off but as a sad and serious trueth that which the Replier concluded this Argument withall Lay all together which our Divines say and you shall finde that in their judgements Humane Ceremonies in Gods worship are like a foole in a place of honor who whether he speaketh or holdeth his peace still sheweth himselfe unworthy of that place CHAP. 4. Concerning Idolatrous Ceremonies SECT 1. About the forming of this argument and the generall answer given thereto IN the former Argument as being most essentiall I suffered my pen to run a larger course then in the beginning I intended Heere I purpose to hold it shorter Passing over therefore by-matters 1. The Argument was thus propounded in the Abridgement It is contrary to Gods word to use much more to command the use of such Ceremonies in the worship of God as man hath devized if they bee notoriously knowne to have beene of olde and still to be abused unto Idolatrie and Superstition by the Papists especially if the same be now of no necessary use in the Church But our Ceremonies are such Ergo. The Def. his answer was so set downe that by the Rej. his owne confession no sense could be discerned in it But the said Rej. after three patchings of the words and the distinctions about abolishing abused and necessary bringeth for account this answer out of all If by abolition be meant Abscission and not Cure the Proposition being meant of things indifferent is false But if in the exception of things necessary be meant not an absolute but a convenient necessitie the Assumption is false which sayth that our Ceremonies are of no necessary use in the Church Heere we have three distinctions betwixt 1. abscission or cutting off and curing 2. things evill in their nature and indifferent 3. necessity absolute and convenient Now 1. see how they agree among themselves In the first the Ceremonies are considered as members of our Religion or worship which must be eyther cut off or cured for so the Def. explaineth it of cutting off the members by the joynts whereas they were never members joynted to our religion or worship but to the Harlot of Rome In the second they are considered as no members but things indifferent and in the third at the best onely convenient 2. For the first it is well knowne that they are cloutes which have lien vpon the plague-soares of Idolaters many hundreds of yeares and what wise Physition or Surgeon was ever knowne to goe about the curing of such clouts 3. For the second it is a meere affectation of casting a myst before the Readers eyes For both the Def. and Rei knew well that the Authors of this Argument holde our Ceremonies not indifferent but unlawfull in their nature and yet upon supposed indifferency undertake to make good their Proposition as having all sense on their side namely that things otherwise meerely indifferent receive some difference by their notorious abuse to Idolatry 4. For the last The Ceremonies are heere onely in a blinde distinction as it were in a parenthesis affirmed to be of convenient use in our Church Now let any man consider of this dealing whether it be not more necessary for the Def. and Rej. then convenient for the Reader In the Abridgement pag. 42. and 43. c. it is largely prooved
of Patronage a civill inheritance Whereas the question is not from whence it ariseth but if it appeared in the face of the Primitive Mother-Church This answer is as much as to say our Church hath a speciall wound or sore in her face which the Primitive Church had not and therefore must have a plaister upon it now in those times unknowne that is our face doth not lively represent that face which is the question Beside if the lawing be necessary about the Patrons civill title what hath the Minister to doe with it except ambition or covetousnesse doth cause him to take other mens businesse upon him for his owne advantage Pluralists Non-residents Dumb-Ministers 7. About these the Rejond confesseth that they are the sore of our Church but not allowed or tolerated furâ—her then Mr. Hooker sheweth Now 1. If they be sores being also in the face that is our chiefe eminent Convocation men bearing them in their â—ore-heads surely they must needs dis figure the Primitive face 2. Though I have no more leisure to seeke and confute M r. Hookâ—rs mitigations then the Rejoynd had to allege them yet I dare say if the Stues be tolerated and allowed at Rome thâ—se sores are tolerated and allowed in England they are as well knowne more publikely professed they are practised in the Bishops Palaces and not onely the Court of Faculties but most Bishops doe gaine by them But saith the Rej. If you can tell us the Certaine and safe remedie of this sore I am perswaded the Church will thanke you But I am neither so perswaded of the Convocation-Church not yet that the Rejoynder himselfe is so perswaded Men doe not usually give thankes for that which formerly they did not desire and if this Church had desired a remedie the Convocation-men would long since have begun according to their skill and power with themselves their Chaplaines the Benifices in their gifts c. They would also have hearkened unto Parliament-remedies of wise and carefull Physitians which have been often prescribed prepared tendered almost applied but by the Convocation-men refused and opposed as the world knoweth and the Rej. is not ignorant of it In the clouse of this question the Rej. insinuateth and as halfe ashamed onely insinuateth a secret distinction betwixt carelesse-Non residents and another kinde of them that are carefull the former of which he affirmeth to have beene often condemned though never remooved Of which distinction as being left obscure I cannot speake so much as I muze Onely this Carefull Non-residents seeme to be such as have great care to get some pretense in Court Vniversity or some great mans house for absenting themselves from their charges which God hath laid upon them if they be lawfully called and some care to provide a tolerable Curate for supplying their places Now these the Rej. seemeth to excuse for which they are more beholding to him then the Churches are upon whose spoyles they live and aspiring by them unto higher places And as for the carelesse Non-residents how commeth it to passe that non conformity can as easily be remooved as condemned and such condemned fellons as these be so long reprived after their condemnation Certainely if they were as great enemies to the Bishops kingdome as they are to Christs a quicker dispatch would have beene made of them Simony 8. Of this it was asked if it were so ordinary either in the Primitive Church or almost in the Popish as it is in England Heere the Rejoynd venteth a proverb that almost saveth many a lye adding that the Papists faces are washed with faire water and foule water cast upon us and then telleth of a Canon imposing an oath for prevention of Simony and not onely the guilty man looseth his place but the Patrone his title for that time Now though all this be nothing to the Primitive Churches face yet it is not so to be passed over For to begin with the last 1. The course taken against Simony which he speaketh of is no Canon of the Convocation house but a Parliament-law Canons I hope doe not deprive Patrones of their title which they have by civill inheritance as the Rejoynder told us even now 2. This oath imposed if it bee generally urged doeth make our English Simony worse then that which is found among Papists as adding perjury unto it 3. Because the Rej. will not take the considerate limitation of almost in other sense then as if it were the cover of a lye I am content it be left out and then desire him to proove the assertion a lye If he cannot it had beene sufficient for him who so familiarly accuseth others of scurrility to have denied that which was said putting us to proove it And proove it we can so farre as vices of that nature use to be prooved by the generall voyce even of conformable men Doctor Andrewes long since in a latine Sermon before the Convocation tolde them enough after his playing fashion They give out Non solum nos minoritas vel pecuniâ vel pejori conditione Rectorias nostras paciscimur sed vet Majoritas sic Cathedras vestras vel pacuniarum summis vel Ecclesiarum spolijs foede canponari vulgò dictitant Quo morbo male iamdiu habet andit Ecclesia nostra that not onely we Minorites doe with money or more basely purchase our Parsonages but also you Majorities doe either with great summes of money or with the spoyles of the Churches unworthily hukster your Cathedrall places of which disease our Church hath long beene sick and for which it hath long beene ill spoken of Did his fere or almost all save a ly Ifit did then now it hath not so much to save For many conformable men will almost if I may use that word with good leave sweare that nothing hath hindered them all their dayes from Benefices and kept them in Curateships but onely the generall abuse of Simony Every Page and Lackie at the Court and many Scriviners can tell how much this and that Bishop or Deane gave to such or such a Buckingham and how much the said Bishop received from his under Officers and other by him promoted Neither is all Symony in buying of Benefices and Bishoprickes Selling of Visitations which is an usuall practise of our Prelates and such like trickes are in the same nature in the fourth degree 4. As for washing the Papists faces with faire water the Rejoynder may as well say that hee washed Sodoms face with faire water who said that Israel and Iudah had justified Sodome in her abominations Prophane contemners of Religion members of the Churche 9. The question was if so many such were members of any Primitive Church This the Rejoynder doeth not affirme but denieth any members of our Church to contemne professedly our Religion Which I leave to the judgement of every Reader if he doeth not know some in England who contemne Religion I would to God the Rejoynder were in this point
begun to thinke of this course behold our most illustrious Prince commanded me to doe it which command of his did not onely spurre me on who of mine owne accord was already running but laid a necessity of writing upon me Wherefore this my boldnesse will seeme the lesse strange unto your gracious Majesty seeing my writing proceedeth not so much from mine owne will and counsell of friends as from the commandement of my most Noble Prince who is one of your gracious Majesties speciall friends Now I thought I should doe a matter very worth the paines taking if first I should humbly admonish your most famous Majestie what your dutie is in this cause and secondly if as your humble suppliant I should beseech you for our Lord Iesus Christs sake to performe the same I beseech your gracious Majesty to take this my writing in good part for it proceedeth from a Christian love toward the Church and from an especiall reverend respect that I beare to your most gracious Majesty The Lord knoweth all things Now to the matter in hand Whereas the Apostle writing to Timothie commandeth that prayers be made for Kings and all other that be in authority and saith that the end wherefore they be ordained is that wee may lead a peaceable and quiet life in all that is perfect godlinesse and honestie he teacheth plainly enough what is the dutie of Godly Kings and Princes namely that they take care and bring to passe that first above all things true religion and the true worship of God where it is banished bee restored and being restored bee kept pure all things which smell of impiety being farre removed Secondly that men may live honestly and holily all kinds of uncleannesses beeing abandoned Lastly that publicke peace holy friendship be maintained among the subjects all occasions of contentions being as much as possible may be taken out of the way As the Apostle teacheth manifestly as we have seene so all learned men who bee of sound judgement concerning the Magistrats office doe with one consent affirme that these be the three chiefe parts of the office of the Prince and of every godly Magistrate Which thing being so I see not how your gracious Majestie can with good conscience propound againe the garments in question and other things of that kinde smelling as yet of Popish superstition and once banished out of the Churches to the consciences of the Bishops * Pauls Bishops hee meaneth or else as I sayd before he is misinformed to be taken on againe and so propound them that you should compell them by your commandement to receive them againe For first this is quite contrary to the first and chiefe part of the Princes office For if the Magistrate ought to have a chiefe care that the worship of God be kept pure and without mixture and if for this cause all things are to be abandoned which may any way either by themselves or by accident defile this worship and therefore all things are to be called backe as much as may be to the rule of God and to the former and Apostolicall and so the more pure and simple forme of religion Finally if as the Apostle commandeth we bee to abstaine not onely from all evill but also from all appearance of evill to what end I beseech you most renowned and most godly Queene should those things be brought againe into the Church of God by the Princes commandement which be contrary to the purity of the Apostolicall worship which smell of Popish superstition which bee neither availeable to the aedification of the godly nor to order nor for ornament except that which is whoorish which lastly can bring no profit but on the contrary many evills to the Church It is out of all doubt that by this law concerning apparrell all godly men will bee offended but the wicked will laugh in their sleeve and hereby be putt in hope to get many moe things as for those of the middle sort that is such as be newly converted and turned from ungodlines to godlines and be not as yet well grounded they will be in great danger and if we speake according to mans judgement they will rather looke back to the old superstition to which by nature wee are inclined then fixe and fasten their eyes upon true religion And therfore this is a decree which will bring no avancement at all to godlines but may much further ungodlinesse For though these garments be not evill and uncleane of and by themselves that is of their owne nature yet because of the former and late abuse they are not altogether free from uncleannesse Certainly it cannot be denied but that they will at the least give occasions of many evills and very grievous superstitions Now the very occasions also of evills are to be shunned To what end then should these be thrust upon the Church from whom no profit can be hoped very much evill may come for this is to tempt God Your famous Majesty may well remember that not without cause it was written Hee that toucheth pitch shall be defiled with it that the Apostle had reason to command that we should purge out the old leaven that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lumpe And that Hosea did not foolishly reprove the Iewes because they translated and brought a yong graffe of superstitions out of Israel into their owne garden that is the true Church We ought most religious Queene to have nothing at all to doe with the Papists in matter of religion save in those things which they have common with the Apostles Why I beseech you were some kings otherwise godly reproved and blamed in the Scriptures that they had not taken away Churches or Temples for divine service in the mountaines which were built by holy Fathers ere the building of the Temple in which the Lord was wont to be worshipped Surely because the Temple being now builded and ordained for divine service God would not have any footsteps of any other chappell at all to be extant Therfore also when once the kingdome of Christ was manifested the Ceremonies and garments of Aaron ought not any more to take place For this cause the Apostles were upon good ground carefull that after Christs ascention they should so be taken away that no relickes of them remained And if they tooke them away holily unholily have the Papists called them back againe Now whether is the better to â—ollow the godly simplicity of the Apostles or the ungodly pompe of the Papists who is ignorant This recalling of such Popish garments your gracious Majesty may beleeve me will be a greater evill then peradventure it may be seene even to very wise men at the first blush For me thinkes I see and heare the Monks crying out with very loud voyces in the Pulpits both confirming their followers in their ungodly religion by the example of your gracious Majesty and also saying What doth not even the Queene of England also a most
learned and a most prudent Princesse beginne by little and little to come back to the religion of the holy church of Rome the most holy and sacred vestments of the Clergie men being taken on againe we are to be in good hope that the day will come wherein she will at length though now they be thought to be dead recall also all the other Rites and Sacraments of the holy Church of Rome These and such like words no doubt most prudent Queen the Monkes and Iesuites will use in the Pulpits For they take all occasions to confirme their superstitions Therefore to recall these stinking garments and other rubbish of the Popish Church into the Church of Christ at this time what is it but to give the Papists an occasion and the best that may be to confirme and harden themselves and theirs in their superstitions and also to helpe them in this businesse But let us heare what the Prophet said to Iehosaphat King of Iuda when he helped Ahab Darest thou helpe the wicked and love those who hate the Lord For this thing the wrath of the Lord is upon thee And what other thing will this be then even to call backe the weake from the studie of pure Religion and to give them a privy warning to looke backe and returne into Aegipt It is an easy matter for us weak men who of our owne nature are prone to superstition to slide backe to impiety Therefore occasions of sliding backe to ungodlinesse ought to be taken away and at no hand to be given And what else I pray you meant God in forbidding to plpw with an Oxe and an Asse to sow the same field with diverse kinds of seeds and to weare a garment woven of linnen and wollen together It is an odious detestable thing with God that the same field of the Lord should be tilled by ungodly godly Bishops together If in the same Church Popish Doctrine be taught with the Doctrine of the Gospell Finally if Sacraments Ceremonies and Rites partly Apostolicke and partly Popish be used and the Church be cloathed with them as with a garment of linsey-wolsey For what agreement hath light with darknesse And therfore those things which be not of God but fâ—om them who have defiled Gods worship are utterly to be cast away which the Lord himselfe commanded to be done when hee charged utterly to destroy all things which appertained to those who should give us counsell to follow strange Gods and to burne their garments and all their stuffe with fire in the middest of the street to shew our detestatioÌ„ of such Seducers that they might be an execrable thing to the Lord. And who knoweth not that these garments are a part of the houshould stuffe of that Romish Seducer There shall cleave nothing of the execrable thing sayth hee to thy hand that the Lord may turne from the fiercenesse of his wrath and multiplie thee as he hath sworne to thy Fathers c. Wherefore to bring these garments seeing they be houshold stuffe of Antichrist into the Church of Christ what is it else then to provoke God to anger and to kindle his fury against us Certaine it is that he who is a true friend of Christ will never seeke to have the ornaments of Antichrist in his owne house and much lesse will he suffer them in the Temple of Christ. For who can indure the armes of his enemy in his owne house and specially in the chiefest roome of the same And if God will haue a thing destroyed and abolished who are we that we dare build it up againe But it is Gods will that after the death of Christ all garments of Aaron and Levi should be abolished and he hath plainly enough manifested every where that in these our dayes he would have all ungodly and vaine cerem pompes deceits and paintings of the Papists driven away by the shining brightnesse of the Gospell because these things have no power in them to kindle and increase godlines but greatly availe to the quenching of the same Neither verily can I see to what other end these garments tend then in very deed that I may now come unto the second head to defile and disgrace the faire face nay the whole body of the Church of England reformed according to the †Vntrue oâ— misinformed Gospell as if the chaste and honest daughter of a King should be attired with those very garments wherewith some famous and notable whoore used to be adorned and when she were so clothed were commanded to goe abroad in the streets Now who can allow or judge this to be tolerable Wherfore though for no other yet for this very cause such garments ought not to be thrust upon the Church of Christ because that harlot of Rome hath abused and doth still at this day abuse them though in their owne nature they be not evill to evill and to cover her fornications or rather to entice men to commit fornication For all these pompes and Popish ceremonies are nothing else but whoorish paintings invented and devised for this end that men might thereby be allured to spirituall fornication Is it not therefore a filthy and dishonest thing to have these in the Church of Christ If the brasen serpent which had beene ordained of God and that for the wholesome use of the Israelites was taken away by godly King Ezekias because the Israelites had abused it contrary to the word of God and if Ezekias be highly commended for this so doing because hee had turned that Serpent into ashes and commanded them to be cast into the running water that there might never be any print or signe of it extant any more how much more then are these uncleane garments to be banished out of the Church of God seeing the Apostles never used them but the whoore of Rome hath used them in her Idolatrous worship and to seduce men For it is a very dishonest thing that such things as are of themselves indifferent and have beene long used to the dispight and dishonour of God should be retained in the Church of God to the hazard of the salvation of godly men And much lesse that kinde of garments which is nothing but an invention of men or rather of the Divell himselfe devised to seduce the simple ones Wee all know what praise those common-wealthes deserve which make good lawes that the subjects shall not weare out-landish and strange apparrell nor bring it into the Common-wealthes because it is a corruption of good and honest manners and of the Common-wealthes themselves How then can that counsell which is given to your Majesty be commended to witt that garments unknowne to the Christian world in that time of the Apostles and Apostolicall men should be brought into the Church of Christ. And if an out-landish kinde of attire be not tolerated in well-governed Common-wealthes how much lesse are Idolatrous and heathenish garments to be borne with in the Church where God is
discretion reteined nothing but the name of auncient Professors like boxes in Apothecaryes shops vvhich cary fayre titles on the outsyde fill up roome but have not one healing or usefull drugge in them A third sort ther be 3 Sort. vvho at the first appearing of the gospel in a place are taken up vvith the strangnes and novelty eyther of the Doctryne or the manner of delivery ansvverablely vvith some affection make inquiry after it This vvas their practise vvhen Iohn Baptist came preaching in the vvildernes 3. Math. 5. Then vvent out to him Hierusalem all Iudea all the Region about Iordan This also our Saviour acknovvledged as ther indeavor Ihon. 5.35 Ihon vvas a burning a shining light you vvould have recoyced in him for a season It befalls the Gospell in this case as it doth vvith some strange commodity vvhen it first comes to vievv many see cheapen until the price proves too heavy then they depart vvill not buy So here vvhen our Saviour sets open the sale of the gospel in som obscure place many vvil be comers hearers Cheapners until they finde that the vvord grovves somvvhat high rated the conditions of the Gospel seeme too hard then they for sake it Herod vvelcomes Ihon Baptist observes him but at last murthers him 4. Fort of declyners Others lastly after some sad conviction of the truth revealed as also of the necessity and excellency therof hold it a poynt of honor to persevere in the defense maintenance of it and hence for their ovvne prayse may doe Suffer heavy persecutions as poverty Exile in the profession of the truth the povver vvher of they never approved in the exactnes of it Thus many in Queene Maryes dayes vvere exiled for the Gospel vvho aftervvard returned into England 13. Math. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 opposed yea persecuted the povver accuratnes practise of it For ther is a nick of temptation vvhich stuttes the humor of these temporizing hypocrites discovers them in their colours hence it is that these of Diotrephes his generation could endure banishment because that hyndred not but promoted their honor in that kynd of suffering yet vvhen they came into place of supremacy fell to beating of their fellovv brethren as conceaving the strictnes of their course caryed a condemnation of their carelesse and pompous sensuality VVe have seen the causes consider vve novv the excuses they vvould pretend for themselves Statist his pâ—aetense And heer as mens corruptions are diverse act more or lesse strongly their shifts cary more or lesse apperance vrith them Here first your statist is most grosse to vvhom his Religion is as his coyne Al that goes for currant gospel vvith him that is stamped vvith the authority allovvance of the State He is hovering betvvixt several Religions that he may take any for his turne vvaits eys to see vvhich syde is like to prosper that so he may be of the safest syde And he â—esseth him self vvith the name of a Christian Churche the substance of Religion And vvhat ever things are like to prove trouble some these he vvil make indifferent that he may take them or leave them as he likes best for his ease Discretion is they staâ—ists God Gospel He complaynes much of the restlesse strictnesse of mens Spirits vvho cannot see vvhen they are vvell put too great vveight upon things that are of no vvorth stand upon trifles He crieth out for Discretion as that vvhich vvould umpire determyne all doubts And therfor he can run vvith the hare hould vvith the houud Pranks plâ—yd under colour of discretion by discretion He vvill doe any thing rather then suffer any thing by discretion He can soder vvith the tymes vvinke at the synmes of men yea svvallovv them dovvne though vvith reluctance of conscience that he termes tolerating all by discretion Authority is in stead of all arguments to this man he enquires after no other ground or vvarrant The Temporary Gospeller having had some touch of Religion Temporary Professors pretence light of truth in his mynde can fynd no rest unto his conscience vnlesse he have some shevv of reason to allege for he remembers the charge of the Apostle ye are redeemed vvith a price be not the servants of men he recalls the limitation of Gods command 1. Cor. 7.23 1. Pâ—t 2.13 1. Cor. 11. obey in the Lord that vve ought to be follovvers of the Apostles no farther then they vver follovvers of Christ. That the utmost extent of our Saviours commission to teach for men to obey vvas That men should be taught 28. Math. to observe all that he commanded not that men commanded Resolving therfor to decline they seek to catch at any appearance vvhich they may plead for their declining A declining heart catchâ—th at any thing thâ—t it may plead for declining And because they are most led by example and sense these are the vveapons vvith vvhich they use to vvard them selves maintain their course Common example carries a persvvading povver vvith them it s a sufficient reason for their doing because they see it is don Here they take up their stand All men for the most part do so vvhy may not they Non quo eundum sed quo itur Thus like sheep they follovv the drove though it be to the shambles Especialy if they heare of any noted famous for piety godlines to goe in such a vvay they conclude forthvvith it is the right vvay reasoning thus They are vvise and godly think you they durst do it they vvould do it unlesse it vver good and pious vvhen the truth hath told us that all mâ—n are lyers 3. Rom. 4. eyther doe or may deceive or be deceyâ—â—d even the courses of the strictest saynts have ther crackings 2. Gall. 12.13 Peter vvas a good man yet dissembled and Barnabas vvas a good man Acts. 11.24 2. Gall. 13. yet vvas snatched avvay by example into the same dissimulation Vvhat madnes is it because a vvise man happily falls into the mire that vve should foule our selves vvallovv vvith him But the mayne bulvvark vvherby they beat back all assaults is if they can hould out some Ecclesiastical Canon The Church enjoynes it The authority of the Church theCanons of it like wind tyde cary the Temporizer to any coast are you vviser then The Church This stricks it dead no man must dare to dispute any further nay they count it unreasonale once to demurr or doubt any more but expect that al men should captivale their conceits presently put off reason plucke out their eys to see by other mens spectacles vvhich is intruth not only to cease to be Christians but to be men Not that I detract any due respect esteeme vvhich each man should
terme of scurrilous that is as I take it ful of jesting without respect of the persons he hath to deale with My answ is That if the Rep had written to the convocation house an Epistle with this Inscription To the superstitious fathers of the Church of England as the Def entituleth his epistle to us to his superstitions Brethren and yet this Rej is not ashamed to adopt this scurrility and make it his owne childe by maintaining of it even against the very nature of D. Burgesse there had beene more occasion of such a censure then now is found in all the Replye as after shall appeare The Repl doth not any where to my remembrance vilifie the person of his adversary but only his arguments and answeres together with the vyle courses of our Hierarchy in which kynd of jesting the Rej his scurrility is far greater then the Repl saving the difference which ariseth out of the outward greatnes of Prelats and the poore condition of them which are oppressed by them Now the Repl is no admirer of B s. persons nether are disputations acquainted with such court laÌ„guage as they are used unto If it please your Lordship c. but such is the condition of those that have to doe with Prelats that they are usually censured either for scurrility or flattery and there is no doubt but some will accuse the Rej as much of flattery in blazing his Diocesans Admirable wisdome as he doth the Repl of scurrility though I will not Those who write against Prelats are wont to expect such a censure from them theirs Sic Zwinglâ—us de seditionum authoribus in Epist. non dubito fore complures qui lectis vel auditis his omnibus tandem ecquid hiâ— scurra vult dicturi sunt So Zwinglius in his Epistle touching the authors of sedition I doubt not saith he but ther will be many who having heard or read all these things at length will be ready to say what meant this scoffer Calvin among others was often accused of the same fault not onely by those whom he calls usually cornutos Episcopos horned Bishops but even by their diminutive aemulators among the Lutherans his answere therefore unto Westphalus about this imputation may serve the Replyer It is easy for Ioachymus to obiect against me the odious tarturs of unseemely scurrility Facile est Ioachimâ— nigrum insalsae scurrilitatis sycophanticae mordaci â—is falem mâ—hi objicere sed aeque mihi próptum est uno verbo diluere ejâ—s calumnians si aspiara reperui â—egé quid tam odiose traducit c. Qâ—â—d enim facerem quia vel silentio prodenda fuisset alioqui veritas vel placida mollique actione dandoâ—â— timiditatis ac diffidentiae signum ult admo ad Westph in princip and slanderous bitternes of language but it is as easy for me to wipe away that calumny of his with one word c. For what course should I take since either the truth should have beene betrayed in silence or otherwise by an easy and toothlesse expression the suspition of fearfulnes and distrust would have beene discovered And in very deed let any indifferent man judge of this imputation by any place of the Reply where the Rej. noteth scurrility and he shall fynd the Rej. him â—elf far more guilty As for example pag. 63. in few lynes he may fynde these five termes packed together It is a manifest untruth and calumny It is a ridiculous supposition It is a malitious surmise It is a scurrilous bundle It is to ingraft himself into affections which he calls consciences These are baser termes then are to be found in any one place or I think in all the course of the Rep And what is the occasion of them forsooth the Repl. sayd the Prelats have power to suspend deprive excommunicate nonconformists at their pleasure that the Defend called for further help from Buckingham that the Defend may be acquired at a better Bishoprick In the former whereof ther is nothing sayd which the Rej. could with colour denye before he himself had added for matter of accusation interpretations of his own imagining And in the last there is nothing so much suspected of the defendant D. B. himself knoweth that it is scandalously true almost of all Bishops viz that they ayme at greater Bishopricks But on the other syde what honesty is there in adding unto the replyers words Further then the Lawe of the State and Church require And yet that also is true de facto though not de jure that the Prelats take power to themselves more then the lawes require What charity or religion is ther in slighting the consciences of all that hold with the Repl as if they pretended conscience upon perverse affections What wisdome is ther in talking of the Repl. ambition â—o ingraft him self into the affection of a few poore people from whom he cannot expect either gayne or worldly credit This I am sure of that the Repl. being twice putt out of all meanes of living for that cause never in those extremities gayned from that party the Rej. speaketh of so much as the Emoluments of a tenn pound Prebendary which the Rej. so much slighteth Pag. 15. As for his credit untill he either putt his name to his book or seek by other meanes to have â—it knowne it cannot without injury be objected that he sought it The other thing to be noted in Rej. title is that in opposition to a namelesse Author he nameth himself with such a name or title as neither by our Prelates rules nor by the Scriptures doth admitt a good construction Pastor of Sutton Coldfeild in Warwickshire Our booke of ordination acknowledgeth no such pastors from whencealso it is that in our convocation-church-language we never heare of a Pastor of one Parish alone None of our divines in the Synod of Dort would take to themselves that tittle though most others did in their subscription D. Andrewes an Arch-Bishop in esteeme censureth this title for a Novelty The names of Pastor and in this sense also of calling Nâ—vitia sunâ— Pastorâ— hoc quidem sensu vocationâ—s nomina veteres niquam leg 59. indigitasâ—e voce hac quicurabant parochias distinc tas Resp. ad Epist. 1. Moâ—â— are mere noveltyes nor shall you read that the Auncients ever stiled in these termes any who take the charge of distinct parishes The Scripture indeed doth warrant this title even to D. Burgesse and I do not detract it from him but not in such a manner as he taketh it For wher he writeth in defence of a Lord Bishop over that Diocesse where Sutton Coldfeild is contained as a part and every Ecclesiasticall Bishop is a Pastor he seemeth in one breath to take and resigne his pastorall office If he say that this varietie is by humaine institution D. Andrewes resp ad Ep. 3. Ergo in regiminis forma divinum jus noÌ„ est ac tum Amstelodamo beâ—e
up to heaven to lift up our hands and to bow our knees when we pray unto God Note also the varying of the phrase In civill cerem he requireth an immediate civill object end but in sacred he will have it enough that the immediate object and end be matter pertaining to religion There may be some purpose in this to excluâ—e all civill Cerem and so civility out of matters pertaining to religion that all things being counted religious humaine misticall Ceremo in religion may not be discerned from common observations which are equally and often used to the same immediate end both in civill and in religious matters These things reserved the substance of this partition may passe together with the illustrations of it Only one illustration I would have remembred for future use An action saith the Rej. imperated of religion or springing out of the feare of God may be civill and belong to the second table This is that which some of our Divines meane when they speake of mediate worship that is there be duties belonging to the second table imperated or governed by religion but not immediatly flowing from it This the Rej. taketh hould of in many places and maketh thus actions religious which here he calleth civill The conclusion drawen out of this partition is that they have the spirit of contradiction which say that the church may not ordaine Cer. meerely ecclesiasticall but only common because all Cer. in religious affaires are mâ—erely ecclesiastical And besyde the crosse surplice have ther civill use as a crosse for a shop signe c. But if one spirit crosse another Contradiction those spirits must be tryed saith the Apost and where ther is want of reason and good ground there is that spirit which the Rej. blameth and objecteth to others Now upon a short triall it may appeare where it waketh The Rej. tould us before that some ceremonies are mixt partly civill and â—artly sacred now he telleth us with the same breath that any ceremony in religious affayres is meerely sacred and ecclesiasticall And by proportion any Cerem in civill affaires must needs be meerely civill what then is become of the mixt or common sort here sure is a contradiction from what spirit soever it come 2. What â—n assertion is this any ceremony used in religious affayâ—es is meerely sacred If men and women come purposely in their best apparell to church if they compose themselves to a grave posture give the upper place to â—he cheifest persons and take such to themselves as they may heare the preacher in and yet have no exception taken against them for it if all the places and seats be made cleanly and fitt for a meeting to be held in a comely fashion all these are ceremo according to the Rej. his definition yet no man but out of contention â—ill affirme they are meerely religious or ecclesiasticall For all these in the same manner to the same immediate end the same persons would doe if the meeting were to heare the magistrate propound unto them a grave civill busines concerning the common wealth affaires And surely that which remaining the same may be civill Many Ceremonies are of common use in things civill ecclesiastick is not meerely and properly ecclesiasticall but common to both uses and rather meerely civill then meerely ecclesiasticall because civility is supposed and included in ecclesiasticall affaires but ecclesiasticall proceedings are supposed and included in civill D r. Iackson in his originall of unbeleef pag. 337. doth wel observe That decent behaviour doth change the subject only not alter its owne nature and forme whilest it s used in matters sacred Nor is the habit of civill complement or good manners such an unhallowed weed as must be layd asyde when we come into the sanctuary And indeed there is no more reason to shutt civility out of the church or sacred busines then to shutt religion out of the towne-house or civill affaires 3. That which is added of a civill use of the Ceremon in quaestion doeth nothing agree If a porter or baker weare a lynnen garment in the Church upon occasion as at other tymes no man will except against it or account it a ceremony ecclesiasticall or religious A crosse that is used for a shopp signe hath no ecclesiasticall or civill use in religion except ther be so many temples in one place that they must be distinguished by signes as shopps are As for the examples mentioned before of the Bishops in their formalities and the Clerks in their surplices at a funerall for civill use I answer the immediat end of such formalities is religious even in that they are characters of ecclesiasticall persons and their religious office Are not Rochetts and such like formalities ecclesiasticall ceremonies being signes of cheif ecclesiasticall officers as such The furnerall at which they are present doth no more make them civill then among the Papists it maketh all their superstition to become a civill order Nay by this it appeareth that both civill ceremonies may be used in ecclesiasticall affaires and ecclesiasticall cerem in civill affaires because both may be used in the same affaires To traverse these notioÌ„s more full I add these considerations These words matter pertaining to religion added in the explication of sacred cerem may cary a double sense Pag. 35. The definition of sacred ceremon discussed 1. That it is enough to make ceremonies sacred if this be their end to be serviciceable to some thing which is an ordinance or to some person in a holy function or performance of an ordinance and this seemes to be the Rej. meaning for his examples cary this meaning when wearing of blackes rending of garments in dayes of humiliation are made by him sacred cer as also by those words wherein he is so peremptory and expresseth his lordly censuring even of mens hearts in lusting after contradiction if they deny ceremonies used in religious affaires to be meerely ecclesiasticall but this we conceave to be false hope it hath in part and shall appeare to be more plainly in the following discourse Secondly it may cary this sense that is truely sacred when the object is God and his honour aymed at immediatly as when we kneele to God in prayer we do not kneele to the scripture or man praying but God directly or when the next object is a holy thing but so attended as by that or in the use of that we tender up honor to God and attaine that end As the minister preacheth the word to the people and they heare it preached but by both and in the virtue of both according to Gods appointment the heart is caried in holy affections and apprehensions to him and so both hould out Gods honor So Sacraments given and receaved excommunicatioÌ„ dispensed they hould out the spirituall government of God and his honor unto us bring our hearts under his hand to give that honour which is due to
our Prelates suche good manners as to put fescues of their owne making into his hand and so appoint him after what manner and by what meanes he shall teache us P. Mart. in Reg. 8. thus disputeth For as much as God is most wise he needs not our devise for instrumeÌ„ts to stirre up faith in us which also no tradesman in his kind would indure Cum Deus sit sapientissimus non opus babet ut nostro cogitatu illi parâ—mus instrumenta ad fidem in nobis excitandam quod etiam quisquam Artifex in sua facultate minime serret se dipsomat velles suâ— arbitratu sibi deligere but would chuse to himselfe at his owne plâ—asure what he should think most fitt Nay I would be resolved of this doubt whether this be not a doctrine religious in England The signe of the crosse doeth signifie unto us that we should not be ashamed of Christ crucified etc. If it be as no Conformist can denie then I would know whether and where Christ our onely Authentique teacher doeth teache this doctrine or if our Prelates may bringe in a new doctrine into the Churche and cause Ministers to preache it He leaveth out of our proof that Christ is the onely appointer of meanes as also that those meanes are limited to admonition of a holy dutie and in stead of our conclusion he bringeth in another of ordeyning as necessarie The support also of our collection he omitteth to acknowlege any other meanes of teaching and admonishing us of our dutie then suche as Christ hath appointed is to receyve another teacher into the Churche beside him and to confesse some imperfection in the meanes by him ordeyned Yet in the middest of this shufling and cutting he telleth us that our collection is absurd His reason is not by manifesting the fault of our consequence but onely by objecting some instances and those also nothing to purpose Then sayth he it should not be lawfull to use any helpe of Art Memorative nor to set up a gybbett or a traytors head on a pole to give men warning against murder or treason Had he so soon forgotten that the question is of Ceremonies appropriated to Gods service teaching by ordination or Ãnstitution If he had not what did he mean to instance in thinges that were never called Ceremonies before this Rejoynder made all things in the world in some respect Ceremonies by his wilde definition of a Ceremonie thinges that have no use in Gods service muche lesse appropriated therto thinges not teaching by vertue of any ordination or institution but onely by their naturall relation nay things not teaching at all any spirituall dutie directly and immediatly Characters and suche like helps of memorie doe no otherwise teache trueh then error and haeresies no more spirituall duties then carnall lusts as experice doeth teache One of the ancientes and learnedest SchoolmeÌ„ of our Countrie Alex. AleÌ„sis p. 4. q. 1. m. 1. teacheth us Literae significantes sacras sententias non significant eas in quantum sacra sunt sed in quantum suâ— tres that Letters that signifie sacred sentences do not signifie them as they are sacred but as they are things And if it be lawfull to institute significant Ceremonies for all things that we may note in characters for memorie sake theÌ„ certainly our Convocation may instituteCeremonies properly Sacramentall even suche as doe signifie and seale the Covenant of grace For ther is no doubt but that we may note in characters or writing all that belonge to that Covenant Gibbets traytors heads besides the former exception out of Alex. Hales are remembrances of death inflicted upon suche malefactors but neyther to be appointed by any without that authoritie by which death is inflicted nor in their use imposed upon any nor determined by institution to the teaching of any thing which they would not otherwise teache not yet suche remembrances as may be brought into Gods worship Nay from them some good Divines doe reason against images in Churches and suche like significant Ceremonies D. Fulke against Sanders of images hath these words Images sayth Sanders are profitable because they bring us in remembrance of good thinges I denie this argument because nothing is profitable in religion but that whâ—ch is instituted by God For otherwise wee might bringe the gallows into the Churche which bringeth us in remembrance of Gods justice 4. To passe by those exceptions of the Repl. against the Def. which the Rej. calleth wranglinges though they be defensible enough The first proof of our proposition is taken from Mar. 7. and Matth. 15. where as we allege our Saviour by this argumeÌ„t among others condemneth the Iewish purifijnges and justifieth himself and his Disciples in refusing that Ceremonie because being the praecept of men it was taught and used as a doctrine by way of significatioÌ„ to teache what inward puritie should be in them and how they ought to be clensed from heathen pollutions To this the Rej. supplying againe that which the Def. had forgotten answereth that this reason among others of signification is our fiction Now though these places of Scripture have formerly been handled in the second chapiter let any man considerthis observation wee finde in our Saviours answer three reasons of reprehending the Pharisies 1. That their washing was praeferred before the Commandements of God 2. That it was hypocriticall 3. That it was a vaine worship therefore sinne If any say it was not vayne as significant wee replie it could be no outward worship but as religiously significant For washing without signification had been meer civill And Marc. 7.4 The Pharisies are reproved for meer undertaking to observe washinges no mention being made of any other reason but onely that observance which must needes be understood of all observance which was not civill but by institution intention religious 5. For this interpretation and collation many good Divines were cited as fathering the same They are all abused sayth the Rej. Now of Chrysostome enough hath been sayd in the former chapter D. Whitakers his approbation of the same sentence is shifted of with binding of conscience and holinesse placed in them But these shiftes are sufficiently discussed in the former part of this book To the Confession of Witenberge it is answered 1 That it doeth not so muche as give anie glance at Marc. 7. Which how true it is may appear by these their wordes Non liceâ— vel vetâ—res legis vitus restaurare vel novâ—s comminisci ad adumbrandam veritatem Euangelicam jam patefactum quales sunt Uti vexillis crucibus ad significandam victoriam Christs per crucem quod genus est universa panopliae vestium missalium quam aiunt adumbrare totum passionem Christi multa id genus alia Da hoc â—enere Ceremoniarum sacrorâ—m Christus ex Isaia concionatur fâ—ustra inquiens colunt me docâ—ntes doctrinas praecepta hominum Nor is it lawfull to restore either
way of authority and if he can doe this he may also perswade us that we are for refusing them excluded suspended deprived excommunicated fined imprisoned without any way lawfull or vnlawfull of authority Concerning necessity in conscience see the first part chap. 6. Another answere of the Rejoynders is notorious Bellarmine saith he allegeth this feast of Dedication to proove the Dedication or Consecration of Churches which is nothing to our question of significant Rites Now surely if Dedication and Consecration of Churches bee nothing to our question of significant Rites the Def. and Rej. say nothing to the purpose when they prove this question of signifying Rites by the Maccabees Feast of Dedication And if that Feast of Dedication doeth not proove humane Dedications lawfull much lesse doeth it prove the lawfulnesse of other significant Ceremonies such as ours are 3. The Defendant for backing of this instance added that our Saviour seemeth to approve that humane Feast by his presence Ioh. 10. To which it was replied that he seemeth onely because we onely read that he walked in Solomons Perch at that Feast which he might doe without observing or approoving of it This is Iunius his answer to Bellarmine alleging that Christ by his presence honoured that Feast Non sestum proprie honorawit Christus sed coetum piorum convenientium festo nam omnes ejusmodi occasiones seminandi Evangelij sut observabat capiebaâ— Christus Con. 3. l. 4.6.17 an 6. So Peliâ—anus in Mac. 1. cap. 4. Nec aliud in his Encoenijs Christus egisse legitur quam praedicasse in Templo Christ did not properly honour the Feast but the Congregation of the faithfull at the Feast For Christ tooke all such occasions then to wit before those solemnities were abolished of sowing the seed of his Gospel Nor did Christ ought that wee read at those times but preach in the Temple And sure I am that neither walking in the Porch nor declaring that he was that Christ belonged properly vnto the solemnity of that Feast If hee had preached of Dedications and Consecrations with allowance that had beene something The Rej. objecteth 1. That we plead Christs approbation of marriage by his presence This indeed added vnto evident grounds addeth some honour unto that state especially in that a miracle was wrought to the furtherance of a marriage feast if wee had no other plea for lawfulnesse of marriage but that meere presence I for my part would as soone separate from my wife as the rejoynder saith he would from the Church of England if he were of our minde about Ceremonies that is to day before to morrow His 2. objection is that Christ whipped the buyers and sellers out of the Temple Ioh. 2. Ergo. Which maketh directly to the clearing of this cause For there were two whippings of these Merchants out of the Temple the first whereof was this Ioh. 2. in the begining of his preaching the other toward the end of it a little before his passion so that it appeareth plainely they were not so driven out but they came in againe and continued their merchandise there and yet in the meane space our Saviour was often present in the Temple without allowance of that their practise So had he often condemned the traditions of men in Gods worship and yet was present some time where they were observed Beside because the Def. and Rej. are wonte to accuse the Iewes for placing holinesse necessity efficacy and proper essentiall worship in humane traditions whereby they would avoid the dint of that generall censure which our Saviour giveth of them Mat. 15. Mar. 7. c. I would faine learne of them how it appeareth or may be conjectured that they placed not as much holinesse necessity efficacy c. in this and such like humane Feasts as in washing of hands before meat If they did as any man will thinke then how can they say that our Saviour condemned the one and allowed the other The following 13. and 14. Sections are spent about some objections taken out of M r. Cartwrite But because the slitenesse of this Instance is already sufficiently discovered I will not cloy nor deteyne the Reader about them at this time but passe on to the next Instance SECT 15. and 16. Concerning the Altar of Iordan Iosh. 22. 1. IT is the Def. and Rej. their fashion to produce Instances without proof of their fitnesse and so exspect from us that they should be disproved whiche is all one as if Iohn a Stiles should in a great traverse bringe forth against Iohn a Nokes some instrumens for evidence of his cause which few or none beside himself can read at least so as to discerne any thing in it making for him and plead that in them was evidence enough except Iohn a Nokes could prove the contrarie So it is heer about the Altar of Iordan no demonstration is first made how it agreeth to the purpose but we are chalenged to shew how it disagreeth Yet yeelding them this libertie we have enough to oppose 2. And first of all we answer that this Altar of the two Tribes was not in the state or use religious as the Crosse is by the confession of an English Bishop Babington on the 2. Commandement The Rejoynder 1. opposeth out of M r. Parker par 1. sect 34. and 36. that religious in use is that which hath a religious ende and religious in state which is Ecclesiasticall belonging to Gods service Ergo. But M r. Parker in those sect tould him that religious in a sense common or mixâ—ly all thinges are that are doen to an holy ende and religious in sense speciall or in state all those thinges are that have Order Obligation and a kinde of Immobilitie in Gods service Now the quaestion is not of the former common mixt sense but of the later speciall state according to which no man can say the Altar of Iordan to have been religious upon ground of Scripture or reason Let any man judge then whether partialitie did put out M r. Parkers eyes as the Rej. speaketh or blear theirs that see not the vanitie of this allegation 3. B. Babingtons words on the 2. Commandement are these They erected that Altar not for religion but in deed for a civil use as you may see Iosh. 22. The Rejoynd answereth that he calleth the Altar civill Analogically because it was ordeyned by consent of fellow-Citizens which is as meer a shift as any yet invented by the Rejoynder For 1. he calleth not the Altar but the use civill 2. He opposeth this civilitie not unto Divine Institution as the Rejoynder would have him but unto the same fellow-Citizens erecting of an Altar for Religion 3. What he meaneth appeareth plainly by his third Proposition there set downe in these termes It is lawfull to make pictures of thinges which we have seen to a civill use but not to use them in the Churche and for Religion 4. To passe over circumstantiall passages the Def.
Wolphius Lavater Sadeel Iewel Bilson Fulke Rainolds Andrues and Perkins To all these it was unseasonable sayth the Rejoynder to answer at full in this place We must therfor wayt though in vayne for a place which will seeme seasonable 6. The Defender in fine noted two disparities betwixt the brasen Serpent and our Ceremonies 1. That the Idolatrie of the Iews about that was publicke generall and in the same Churche which is not so with our Ceremonies 2. That ther was no other meanes to cure the Idolatrie of those times as now ther is To the former it was answered 1. that these circumstances are not rendred as reasons of abolishing the brazen serpent in the Text but invented by the Def. True saith the Rej. yet any man may conceive that they might be reasons But for generality I cannot conceive how it can be prooved and the publike abuse though it might be a reason yet not such a one as that with it abolishing should be used or suspended But our Ceremonies addeth the Rej. must in comparison be likened to the brazen Serpent used well at Ierusalem which ought not to have beene abolished for such another in relation to that set up at Bethel and made an Idol Wherein he mistaketh much For first our Ceremonies were never good or well used Calvin is allowed of by the Def. and Rej. for his moderation about them Let him therefore speake I answer the turne-coate What is there in the Papacy unlike the brazen Serpent except onely the originall Epist. 265. The Popish Ceremonies are naught from the beginning Resp. ad Versipellem Quid in Papatu non simile serpenti aneo prater originem Epist. 265. Ceremoniae Papales à suo principio vitiosa sunt 2. The Papists did not take these Ceremonies from us but we from them 3. It may be very well questioned whether the serpent at Ierusalem considered as no way commanded of God should not have beene abolished if the ten Tribes should have taken occasion by it of Idolatry It was answered 2. that private idolatry is also to be remooved as well as publike That cannot be de facto saith the Rejoynder Yet thus farre it may be very well de facto that nothing be used in publike which is knowne to nourish idolatry in private It was answered 3. That all these circumstances did more then agree to our Ceremonies in the beginning of our reformation To this it is rejoyned 1. that our Ceremonies were never the object of grosse idolatry which he would not have said if he had thought of the Crosse or that the proper meanes of idolatry are as well to be abolished as the objects The 2. rejoynder is that though they ought to have beene remooved in the beginning of reformation yet now not which is as if a debter should pleade that he owed indeed so much money to his creditour long agoe but now though it hath beene every yeare called for he is quit by deferring the payment Sure sayth the Repl. our Ceremonies are not growne better since the reformation by any good they have done That is not heere considered answereth the Rejoynder but if they bee not growne to lesse abuse As if lesse superstition with much mischiefe were not enough to cashiere such Ceremonies as doe no good To the second disparitie it was replied that this is the very quaestion whether any other meanes be sufficient to cure the disease of human Ceremonies idolatrously abused beside abolishing This sayth the Rej. you make a quaestion of And was not the Defend disputing against us what reason then had he to make ouâ— quaestion an argument or answer against us It was replied also that experience haâ—h shewed the disease of our Ceremonies is not cured in the Dominions of our Hezekia Yet sayth the Rej. the meanes without abolishing may be sufficient if they were well applied that is given and receyved As if the same meanes would not have been in like manner sufficient in Hezekias time against the Idolatrie of the Serpent if they had been well applied i. e. given and receyved Heerin certainly is no disparitie A peice of a Comparison betwixt the Primitive the praesent English Churche 1. Because the Def. 3. or 4. times repeated and urged as much making for his cause that our Churche is so truely reformed that it doeth most lively expresse the face full body of her Primitive Mother-Churche the Repl. therfor at last was forced to say somthing to this especially in this place where it is quaestioned if we will allow it to be called a reformed Churche He answered therfor in generall that in the maine pointes of doctrine and the grossest superstitions our Churche is reformed but in regard of Ecclesiastical government and some Ceremonies it is not To this it is rejoyned 1. That by face and body was meant onely doctrine and religion not governement or Ceremonies The Defend therfor understood this terme as Cardinall Perone and the Replier as D. Andrues whoe in the beginning of his answer hath these wordes Points of faith seeme rather to pertayne to the inward parts then to the face It is the Agend of the Churche â—e should have held him to In that is the face of the Churche c. After this the Rejoynder making all the Primiâ—ive Church that was within divers hundreds of years afâ—er the Apostles age out of the Centurie-writers and others gathereth a catalogue of errors and defects in doctrine and observances which by little and little began in those times and thence concludeth that our doctrine is purer then it was in the Primitive Church and also some observances Now 1. this extention of the Primitive Church is taken without leave 2. Those errors of doctrine may no more be attributed to the Primitive Church then the errors of M r. Mountague and others like him who are neither few in number nor meane for power as things goe may be to the English Church 3. In the other matters of Ecclesiasticall Policy and Ceremonies we hold that for which the Rejoynder formerly objected unto us as a spirit of singular singularity pag. 384. and now confesseth to be true namely that the Apostolicall purity began presently after to be corrupted and so proceeded in defection more and more Yet all this doth not hinder but divers corruptions may be found among us which were not knowne in the first primitive ages Nay let it be marked well how strange an assertion is made up by this reckoning of the Rejoynders In Hezekias time saith the Defendant the idolatry about the Serpent could not be cured but by abolishing the Serpent but in our most truely reformed Church which doth most lively expresse the face and full body of her Primitive Mother-Church this disease would be found curable without any such extremity The meaning is according to the Rejoynder his interpretation the disease of idolatry is more easily cured in that Church which doeth lively expresse the face and full body of those
argument is the cheife foundation of Illyriâ—us Calvin Chemnitius and â—thers Of Bellarmines answer the Rejoynder makâ—th an Argument against our Divines whoe have confuted that answer and so sufficiently answered his Argument long before he framed it which yet he taketh no knowledge of but nakedly propoundeth it as if this were the first time of beating it off the stage It is sayth he onely sayd of the Apostles not of the Churches that they did ordâ—yn Elders Act. 14.23 So say I it is onely sayd of the Apostles and not of the Churches in the very same verse that they did pray and fâ—st doeth it follow from hence that the Churches had no hand part or consent in prayer and fasting If not then neyther doeth the onely mentioning of the Apostles in creating Presbyters exclude the peoples formal choise much lesse their consent If any man desires large and full clearing of the place he may find it in Iâ—nius his Notes on Bellarmine Contr. 5. lib. 1. cap. 7. annot 59.63.64 where the Conclusion is that Bellarmine doeth in this argument nugari nothing but trifle disioyning thinges that ought to be conjoined as if ther were a contradiction betwixt these two Propositions The Apostles ordeyned the Churches ordeyned If the Rejoynder would have brought a fitting example he should have shewed us that Paul or Barnabas being at Ierusalem ordeyned a Minister and sent him to Antioche Iconium or Lystra signifying by letters that such a man was appointed their Pastor though they never knew or heard of him before For that had been something like unto the practise of a Bishop whoe upon the Patrons praesentation whersoever he be sendeth his Minister from the place or Palace of his residence unto a Congregation 20.30 or 40. miles of which poor despized People must be content with towling of a Bell as sufficient notice given of their Ministers fitnesse and their necessitie to â—cknowledge the same 3. In the second place Tit. 1.5 wheras our translation hath that Titus was to ordeyne Ministers the Rejoynder turneth ordeyning into apâ—ointing and I may better turne it into setting or placing Now which soever translation be admitted the Rejoy â—is argument is lighter then a feather except it be supâ—osed that Titus could not effect that Ministers should be in every Church of Creete neither by nor with the Churches consent which is too absurd a proposition for â—ny resonable man to father Take the Rej his translation in ordinary rigour Our King doeth appoint Bishops and yet they are not placed in their Seats without some kinde of consent and election of others And yet I hope the Rej. himselfe will not say that Titus tooke so much upon him as this commeth to 4. As for choosing Ministers by Prophesie that was very extraordinary and therefore hath no place in the question of ordinarie calling Yet 1. Prophesie did no lesse require the concurrence of the Churches consent in an ordinary Minister then it did the Presbyteries ordination in Timothies person 1. Tim. 4.14 It was onely an extraordinary cause of that consent which otherwise should have beene grounded on the persons qualification Prophesie also or Vision did sometime follow the Churches election as in Celerinus of whom Cyprian Epist. 34. ed. Goulart recordeth Cum consentire dubitaret Ecclesiae in visione per noctem compulsus est no negaret When hee wavered about consenting to the Church by a vision of the night he was forced to assent 5. As for election by lot I do not thinke any example can be given of it wherein the Churches election of divers persons betwixt whom the lot should designe with their consent did not concurre 6. As for the Primitive Churches tenet of Divine authority nothing can be prooved out of the Councell of Laodicea which was after Iulians time The Synod of Africa Epist. 68. Cypr. ed. Goul. doeth informe us thus The people it selfe hath power both to chuse worthy Priests and to refuse unworthy ones The which also we see to come from Divine authority Plebs ipsâ— maxime habet potestatem vel aligendi dignos sacerdotes vel indignos recusandi Quod ipsum videmus de Divina autheritate descendere c. Yet Calvin answereth that even that Laodicean Councell did not restraine from election but onely from disorderly electing by themselves And is therin learnedly seconded against Bellarmines rejoynder by Iunius in Bell. Cont. 5. lib. 1. cap. 7. 7. As for implicit consent in Parliament it maketh nothing to the question And yet it cannot be prooved that every thing decreed by Parliaments have the Churches implicit consent For then the Church did implicitly consent unto all the alterations of religion in King Henries King Edwards Q. Maries and Q. Elizabeths dayes how opposite soever they were one to another neither can it be shewed lawfull for the Churches of Christ to leave their priviledges which Christ hath given them to the pleasure of any Parliament 8. To say that the Patrons and Bishops sending without the Churches consent is as good or better then the Churches free consent well ordered and directed is all one as to say it is as good or better that Women should be married without their consent then with it 9. As for the finall answer I referre the Reader partly to that already sayd and partly to D. Ames his answer unto Bellarmine tom 2. lib. 3. cap. 3. Ministers going to law for their places 6. The question is if this was knowne in the Primitive Church It is rejoyned 1. that Bishops were often inquestion at Synods about their title to their places which was as much But 1. This was not in the Apostles time 2. Questioning before Synods about Ecclesiasticall affaires is of Ecclesiasticall nature going to law not so In Synods all things ought to be determined by Gods Word at the Kings Bench and Assizes the Iudges pronounce sentence by mans law Yet the good ancient Bishops were so farre from seeking a title to their places by Synodicall judgement that they withdrew themselves as being afraid to have such a title put vpon them either by Churches or Synods examples of which modesty we have even in declining times Basil Gregorie c. A law we finde also Cod. de Epist. Cler. mentioning the same disposition Tantum ab ambitu debet esse sepositus Antistes ut quaeratur congedus rogatus recedat invitatus effugiat sola illis suffragetur necesittas excusandi Profecto enim indignus est sacerdotio nisi ordinatus fuerit invitus The Prelate ought to be so farre from ambition that nothing but compulsion should draw him though he be desired let him give backe and when invited let him shift c. For certainely he is unworthy the office of Priesthood unlesse he be ordained unwillingly Certainely these men would never have sought those places by course of law which they hardly accepted being obtruded upon them 2. The Rejoynder sayth Lawing about places ariseth upon the title
to be worshipped in spirit and truth and where he would have few and very simple Ceremonies Also if God established by his Law that a woman may not putt on a mans apparrell nor a man a womans the one beeing so well of it selfe dishonest and contrary to nature as the other Why then should godly Bishops †Still misinformed and the servants of Christ be clothed or rather shamed and deformed with the garments of godlesse Priests and slaves of Antichrist Why should wee not rather as wee be of a divers religion from them so also be discerned from them at least in the performance of such duties as belong unto Gods worship by outward signes such as garments be Verily this was Gods will and he required of his people that it should be discerned from the prophane Gentiles as by other things so also by a divers sort of apparell and so should professe by this publicke signe that it would have nothing to doe with the Gentiles And why should not wee doe the same Are wee not the people of God abides not the equity of the same commandement And if the word honest be derived of honour what honour will it be for the church of Christ to have Bishops attired and disguised with Popish visors in the administration of the Gospell and Sacraments so as they shall rather be derided then be reverenced any whit by the people And what commendation shall it be for your gracious Majesty in true Churches and among true beleevers that you permit such trifles to be called back into your Church Therfore it standeth not with honesty that holy †Still misinformed Bishops be compelled to receive such visors neither is it indeed a matter worthy of honour and praise neither deserveth it the name of vertue For if your Majesty should command that all English men leaving that ancient and very grave and comely attire should weare Turkie coats or a souldiers weed as it is called who would ever approve this decree as honest And it is much lesse praise-worthy if godly Bishops be enjoyned laying aside or at least changing the honest and ancient apparell which the Apostles wore to wit that common and grave habit to put on the ridiculous execrable or accursed garment of godlesse Mass-priests Now concerning the third part of the Princes dutie there is nothing fitter to trouble the publicke peace of the Church then this counsell For every novelty especially in religion either by it selfe if it be evill disturbs and troubles a good peace or if it be good gives occasion of trouble by accident by causing contention betweene evill and good men But as in things which be good of themselves of which nature the reformation of the Churches according to the will of God is we are not to care for the troubling of that ungodly peace thâ—t is of the world for Christ came not by his Gospell to keep such a peace but rather to take it away to send a sword so assuredly by the urging of things indifferent to trouble the peace of Churches and to cause strife betweene good men and bad yea betweene godly men themselves is so wicked that it can by no meanes be defended so that Ireneus had just cause to reprove Victor Bishop of Rome for this cause as hath beene said afore For it must needs be that at such times the Churches be rent in peeces then which thing what is more hurtfull Many exemples in the histories of the Church prove this which I say How many and how great troubles arose in the Primitive Church betweene those who beside the Gospell urged also circumcision and the law and betweene those who upon good ground rejected them And how great evills would this dissention have brought to the Church of Christ had not the Apostles betime withstood them by that councell gathered together at Ierusalem by a lawfull examination and discussing of the cause by manifest testimonies of the Scriptures and by sound reasons If your gracious Majesty as you ought desire both to be and to seeme Apostolicke then imitate the Apostles in this matter Neither lay and impose this yoke upon the neckes of Christs Disciples your selfe nor suffer it to be imposed by others But if you see that the Bishops disagree about this matter among themselves assemble a Synod and cause this controversie to be examined by the Scriptures And then looke what shall be proved by plaine testimonies and strong reasons propound that to be observed by all and command by your decree that that be observed and so take disagreement out of the Church For your gracious Majesty ought to be very carefull that there be no innovation in religion but according to the word of God By this means shall a true peace concord unity of the Churches be preserved But if the proceeding be otherwise what other thing will it be then to take away unity and to trouble the Christian peace And this I may not passe over with silence that by this novelty of the busines not onely the publick peace shall be troubled in that kingdome but also many else-where out of that kingdome will have occasion given them to raise new contentions in Churches and that to the great hinderance of godlines and the more slow proceeding of the Gospell For all men know that the most part of all the Churches who have fallen from the Bishop of Rome for the Gospels sake doe not only want but also abhorre those garmeÌ„ts and that there be some Churches though few in comparison of the former which doe as yet retaine those garments invented in Poperie as they very stifly retaine some other things also because the reformers of those Churches otherwise worthy men and very faithfull servants of Christ durst not at the first neither judged they it expedient utterly abolish all Popish things But as the common manner is every man likes his owne best Now I call those things a mans owne not so much which every man hath invâ—nted as those beside which every man chooseth to himselfe receiveth retaineth and pursueth though they be invented to his hand by others But if there be also annexed the examples of other men they be more and more hardened in them and are not onely hardened but also doe their uttermost endeavour by word and writing to draw all the rest to be of their minde Therfore wee easily see what the issue will be if your gracious Majesty admit of that counsell which some doe give you to take on apparell and other more Popish things besides For some men who be not well occupied being stirred up by the example of your Majesty will write bookes and disperse them throughout all Germany of these things which they call indifferent to witt that it is lawfull to admit of them nay that they be altogether to be retained that Papists may be the lesse estranged and alienated from us and so we may come the neerer to concord and agreement