prescribeth other set and ordinary festiuall daies to be obserued as straightly and with as much solemnity as the Sabbaoth of the Lord. Answ Doth not the Church of England also prescribe the Natiuity of our Sauiour and of S. Iohn Baptist the feastes of the Apostles and many others to be kept holy and command that no man worke in the affaires of their calling those daies doth their owne Church also erre therein How say you then to the Church of the Israelites which kept the feastes of Easter Whitsontide and of the Tabernacles as straightly and with as much solemnity as they kept the Lordes Sabbaoth was it also mis-led to the breach of Gods Commandements or must we not rather thereby learne that six daies in the weeke were at the first left vs free to labour in but yet so that by the decree and commandement of our spirituall Gouernours any of them might vpon just occasion be made festiuall and thereupon euery good Christian bound to keepe them by their obedience vnto their Gouernours to thinke the contrary is a high point of Puritanisme Fourthly saith M. PER. the fist Commandement enjoyneth children to obey father and mother in all thinges specially in matters of moment as in their Marriages and choice of their calling and that euen to death and yet the Church of Rome against the intent of this Commandement alloweth that clandestine Marriages and the vowe of religion shall be in force though they be without and against the consent of wise and carefull parents Answ It is very false to say that children must obey their parents in all thinges for if parents command them any thing either against Gods lawe or the Princes they must not obey them therein And touching clandestine and priuie Marriages they are of force aswell in the Church of England as in the Church of Rome yea more too For by the Church of Rome alwaies they haue beene forbidden very seuerely and since the Councell of Trent are made void and of no force where the Councell can be published Concerning entring into religion childrens vowes during their minority may be annullated and made of no force by their parents marry when they come to riper daies if their father stand not in necessity of their help they may forsake him to followe Christ in a more perfect kind of life as S. Iames S. Iohn forsoke their father Zebedee followed Christ Math. 4. vers 22. Fiftly The last Commandement saith M. PER. forbiddeth the first motions to sinne that are before consent He proueth it thus Lusting with consent is forbidden in the former Commandements thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not steale therefore if the last forbid no more it is confounded with the former Againe the Philosophers knew that lust with consent was euil euen by the light of nature but Paul a learned Pharisee knewe not lust to be sinne that is forbid in the Commandement Lust therefore that is forbidden here is without consent Rom. 7. Wicked then is the doctrine of Rome that requireth our consent to euery mortall sinne Answ Their doctrine is most reasonable and godly For the first motions to sinne are rather the actions of the euill spirit tempting vs to euill then of a man in whose minde they are before he is aware of them and who assoone as he beginneth to marke them disliketh them and chaseth them thence and howe can he carry a right opinion of the mild goodnes of God that thinketh him so hastie with his fraile creature man as to punish him eternally for such a thought as is thrust into his minde at vnawares and may come vpon him in his sleepe went he neuer so well disposed to bed Se more of this in the question of originall sinne To his reasons to the contrary I answere to the first that lust with consent is not expresly forbid in the former commandements but the act of adultery and stealing yet it might well haue beene reduced vnto them as it is in the other commandements Neuerthelesse because our frailty is more prone to the wicked lust of concupiscence and desire of our neighbours goodes it pleased God for the better bridling of them to giue vs particuler preceptes against them specially considering that it was also very hard by the dimme light of our darkened reason to discerne them to be such capitall sinnes And whereas he saith that the Philosophers knewe the inward consent of our mind without any exteriour actes to be mortall sinne I take him to speake at randome and more then he can proue Sure it is that many learned Iewes who should knowe more then Philosophers knewe not so much Cap. 5.28 29. Rom. ca. 7. vers 7. as may be gathered out of S. Mathewe and out of Iosephus lib. 12. Antiq. cap. 13. and Dauid Kimhy vpon the 66. Psalme vers 17. And S. Paules owne confession rightly vnderstood witnesseth the same For saith he I had not knowne concupiscence to haue beene sinne vnlesse the lawe had taught it to be sinne Wherefore it was very expedient after the inhibition of the actes of adultery and theft to forbid in plaine and expresse tearmes the lustes and desires of them Lastly saith M. PER. the wordes of the second Commandement and shewe mercy vnto thousandes on them that loue me and keepe my Commandements ouerthroweth all humane merits For if the reward be giuen of mercy to them that keepe the lawe it is not giuen for the merit of the worke done Answ Either simple was this mans judgement sometimes or else most peruersly bent to deceiue the simple For God speaketh there neither of the reward that is rendred in heauen for good workes neither of any reward at all that is rendred vnto the person himselfe that keepeth Gods commandements but of a superaboundant fauour that God of his bounty will shewe vnto thousandes of others for one mans sake that loueth him and keepeth his commandements therefore very peuishly doth he drawe hence any thing against merits And to beginne here where M. PER. leaueth to shewe howe their newe doctrine and inuentious doth crosse and make void the commandements of God First in that that he promiseth mercy and fauour vnto thousandes for ones sake that keepeth his Commandements we gather that God in regard of his Saints who so holily obserued his Commandements doth graunt vnto vs many fauours and graces also that the satisfaction of one may serue for another for else God would not punish children vnto the third and fourth generation for the offence of their great grand-father vnlesse their punishment serued to satisfie for their ancestors offence hence also we gather that some men doe keepe Gods Commandements otherwise God did in vaine promise to fauour thousandes for their sakes that kept the Commandements if he knewe well that there should be none such Therefore most vngodly is that position of the Protestantes that it is impossible to keepe the Commandements and which alone ouerthroweth all the tenne
right meaning of all obscure sentences as they most childishly beare their followers in hand Briefly to conclude this point a great number of them hauing Gods word corrupted for the lanterne to their feete and their owne dimme sight for their best guide no maruaile though they stumble at many difficulties in these high misteries and fall into very absurd opinions concerning the principall partes of them Nowe to make vp an euen reckoning with M. PER. Atheisme I must come vnto their diuine seruice and worship of God the third point that I promised to handle because he spared not to speake his pleasure of ours First then whereas a true reall and externall sacrifice is among all externall workes the most excellent seruice that can be done to the diuine Majestie as shall be proued in the question of the sacrifice which also hath euer since the beginning of the world beene by the best men practised to acknowledge and testifie aswell the soueraigne dominion that God hath ouer vs as our dutifull subjection vnto his almighty goodnesse the Protestantes to make knowne vnto the wiser sorte that they are not Gods true loyall people will not vouchsafe to performe to him any such speciall seruice as to sacrifice in his honour nay they are fallen so farre out with this principall part of Gods true worship that they doe in despite of it powre out most vile reproches against the daylie sacrifice of the Catholike Church which contayneth the blessed body and most pretious bloud of our redeemer IESVS Christ. Secondly of seauen Sacraments instituted by our Sauiour both to exhibite honour to God and to sanctifie our soules they doe flatly reject fiue of them And doe further as much as in them lieth extinguish the vertue and efficacy of the other two For they hold Baptisme not to be the true instrumentall cause of remission of our sinnes and of the infusion of grace into our soules but only to be the signe and seale thereof And in steade of Christes sacred body really giuen to all Catholikes in the Sacrament of the Altar to their exceeding comfort and dignity the Protestantes must be content to take vp with a bitte of bread and with a suppe of wine a most pittifull exchange for so heauenly a banquet They doe daylie feele and I would to God they had grace to vnderstand what a want they haue of the Sacrament of Confession which is the most soueraigne salue of the world to cure all the deadly and dangerous woundes of the soule Ah howe caresty doe they daylie heape sinne vpon sinne and suffer them to lie festring in their breastes euen till death for lacke of launcing them in season by true and due confession Besides at the point of death when the Diuell is most busie to assault vs labouring then to make vs his owne for euer there is amongst them no anointing of the sicke with holy oile in the name of our Lord as S. Iames prescribeth joyned with the Priestes prayer Cap. 5. vers 14. which should saue the sicke and by meanes whereof his sinnes should be forgiuen and he lifted vp by our Lord and inwardly both greatly comforted and strengthned these heauenly helpes I say and many others which our Catholike religion afford vnto all persons by which rightly administred God is highly magnified are quite banished out of the Protestant territories and consequently their religion for want of them is mightily maymed They haue yet remayning some poore short prayers to be said twise a weeke for fearing belike to make their Ministers surfette of ouer much praying they will not tie them to any daylie prayers Mattins Euensong and other set houres they leaue to the Priestes sauing that on the Sabbaoth they solemnely meete together at the Church to say their seruice which is a certayne mingle-mangle translated out of the old portaise and Masse booke patched vp together with some fewe of their owne inuentions And though it be but short yet it is the Lord he knowes performed by most of them so slightly that an indifferent beholder would rather judge them to come thither to gase one vpon another or to common of worldly businesse then reuerently there to serue God Nowe as concerning the place where their diuine seruice is said if goodly stately Churches had not beene by men of our religion built to their handes in what simple cotes trowe you would their key-cold deuotion haue beene content to serue their Lord if one Church or great steeple by any mishap fall into vtter ruine a collection throughout all England for many yeares together will not serue to build it vp againe which maketh men of judgement to perceiue that their religion is exceeding cold in the setting foreward of good workes and that it rather tendeth to destruction then to edification Againe whereas our Churches are furnished with many goodly Altars trimmed vp decently and garnished with sundry faire and religious pictures to strike into the beholders a reuerent respect of that place and to drawe them to heauenly meditations theirs haue ordinarely bare walles hanged with cob-webs except some of the better sort which are daubed like Ale-houses with some broken sentences of Scripture Besides the ancient custome of Christians being to pray with their faces towardes the Sunne rising to shewe the hope they haue of a good resurrection and that by tradition receiued euen from the Apostles as witnesseth Saint Basil their Ministers in their highest misteries De Spiritu sancto 27. looke ouer their communion table into the South to signifie perhaps that their spirituall estate is now at the highest and that in their religion there is no hope of rising towardes heauen but assurance of declining I may not here omitte that of late yeares they haue caused the Kinges armes to be set vp in the place where Christes armes the Crucifix was wont to stand the which I confesse would haue graced their Church better if it had beene else where placed But I hope they will giue me leaue to aske them howe they durst set vp any such Images in their Churches as be in that armes For they haue taught hitherto that it is expresly against the second commandement and a kind of Idolatry not only to worshippe Images but also to set them vp in Churches and yet nowe as it were cleane forgetting themselues they fall into that fault themselues that they haue so much blamed in others Neither will it helpe them to say that they reproued only the setting vp of holy pictures but not of others For the second commandement as they expound it is aswell against the one as the other forbidding generally the making of any kind of Image And is it not a pittifull blindnesse to thinke that the pictures of Lions and Liberts doe better become the house of God then the Image of his owne Sonne and of his faithfull seruants And may not simple people thinke when they see Christes armes cast downe and the Princes set vp in
before I come to the full period of this worke Curteous Reader BEARE WITH THE FAVLTS IN PRINTING WHICH CAN HARDLY BE FEW CONSIDERING THE MANIFOLD DIFFICVLTIES OF THE time And yet besides the ouer-sights in pointing are not very many which be thus corrected IN THE MARGENT THESE Generally a ss is set in the quotation of Caluins Institution for the Section or Number For. Page Reade Beza in Neoph. 9. in Creophag simil ibid. Simler sess 17. 2. 11. number 1. 2. Homil. in praeâ—rat 48. In priorem ad Corint Conc. 56. Canon IN THE TEXT THESE For. Page Line Reade declared 7 15 declare Atheisme 20 9 Atheismes was this 40 35 was it pithagorically 63. 22 pithagoricall I say to solemnely 86 22 to be solemnely Euchirines 135 24 Eucherius established 145 17 establish Cesanis 155 39 Caesarius Pomachius 156 1 Pamachius demised 180 18 deuised proofe 181 16 disproofe The quotation of S. Augustine which is in psalm 33. conc 2. is omitted in the 68. page Hier. cont Lucif cap. 6. wanteth page 209. And in the Aduertisment page the 25. for apud Dionysium 1. Cor. reade apud Ludolphum de vita Christi part 1. cap. 5. pag. 17. AN ANSVVERE VNTO M. PERKINS ADVERTISEMENT M. PERKINS Aduertisement to all fauourers of the Roman religion shewing as he weeneth that the said Religion is against the Catholike principles of the Catechisme that hath beene agreed vpon euer since the dayes of the Apostles by al Churches which principles be fowre The Apostles Creede the tenne Commandements the Lordes prayer the institution of two Sacraments Baptisme and the Lordes supper 1. COR. 11. vers 23. I HAD once determined to haue wholy omitted this goodly post-script because it containeth in manner nothing else but an irkesome repetition of that which hath beene I will not say twise before but more then twenty times handled ouer and ouer in this former small treatise notwithstanding considering both howe ready many are when they see any thing omitted to say that it could not be answered and also for that these pointes here reiterated are the most odious that he could cull out of all the rest to vrge against vs I finally resolued to giue them a short answere And further also by prouing their newe religion to be very opposite vnto those old groundes of the true religion to requite him with the like that I die not in his debt Thus he beginneth The Roman religion established by the Councell of Trent is in the principall pointes thereof against the very groundes of the Catechisme the Creede the tenne Commandements the Lordes prayer the two Sacraments THE Catholike religion embraced and defended by the Church of Rome was planted and established there by the Apostles S. Peter and S. Paul fifteene hundreth yeares before the Councell of Trent and hath beene euer sithence by the Bishops of Rome their lawfull successors constantly reteined and most sincerely obserued and maintayned some articles thereof called into question by the Heretikes of this latter age were in that most learned generall Councell of Trent declared and defined And great meruaile it were if the principall pointes thereof should be against the groundes of the Catechisme which is in euery point most substantially expounded by the decree and order of the very same Councell Or is it credible that the Church of Rome with which all other ancient Churches and holy Fathers did desire to agree and which hath beene euer most diligent to obserue all Apostolicall traditions should in the principall points of faith crosse and destroy the very principles of that religion that hath beene agreed vpon by all Churches euer since the Apostles daies as he saith Is it not much more likely and probable that the Protestantes who slaunder all Churches euer since the time of the Apostles with some kind of corruption or other and who hold no kind of Apostolicall tradition to be necessary is it not I say more credible that they should shake those groundes of faith which come by tradition from the Apostles and haue beene euer since by all Churches agreed vpon I suppose that fewe men of any indifferent judgement can thinke the contrarie But let vs descend to the particulers wherein the truth will appeare more plainely Thus beginneth Master PERKINS with the Creede First of all it must be considered that some of the principall doctrines beleeued in the Church of Rome are that the Bishoppe of Rome is the Vicar of Christ and head of the Catholike Church that there is a fire of Purgatory that Images of God and Saintes are to be placed in the Church and worshipped that prayer is to be made to Saintes departed that there is a propitiatory sacrifice daylie offered in the Masse for the sinnes of the quicke and the dead These pointes are of that moment that without them the Roman religion cannot stand c. And yet marke the Apostles Creede which hath beene thought to contayne all necessary pointes of religion to be beleeued and hath therefore beene called the key and rule of faith This Creede I say hath not any of these pointes nor the expositions made thereof by the ancient Fathers nor any other Creede or confession of faith made by any Councell or Church for the space of many hundreth yeares This is a plaine proofe to any indifferent man that these be newe articles of faith neuer knowne in the Apostolike Church and that the Fathers and Councels could not finde any such articles of faith in the bookes of the old and newe Testament Answere is made that all these points of doctrine are beleeued vnder the article I beleeue the Catholike Church the meaning whereof they will haue to be this I beleeue all thinges which the Catholike Church holdeth and teacheth to be beleeued If this be as they say we must beleeue in the Church that is put our confidence in the Church for the manifestation and the certainety of all doctrine necessary to saluation And thus the eternall truth of God the creatour shall depend vpon the determination of the creature And the written word of God in this respect is made insufficient as though it had not plainely reuealed all points of doctrine pertaining to saluation And the ancient Churches haue beene farre ouer-seene that did not propound the former pointes to be beleeued as articles of faith but left them to these later times Thus farre Master PERKINS Wherein are hudled vp many thinges confusedly I will answere briefly and distinctlie to euery point The first is that in the Apostles Creede are contained all pointes of religion necessary to be beleeued which is most apparantly false as the Protestantes themselues must needes confesse or else graunt that it is not necessary to beleeue the King to be Supreame-head of the Church or that the Church is to be gouerned by Bishops or that vve are justified by Christes justice imputed to vs or that there be but two Sacramentes or that the Church seruice must be said in the
harts to them and so representing them to our mindes may reuerence and vvorship them as spiritually present according to that of S. Paul I absent in body but present in spirit otherwise 1. Cor. 5. vers 3. vve Christians should not vvhiles we liued on earth adore the humanity of our Sauiour Christ IESVS because he touching his humanity is absent from vs which were most absurd and so is therefore M. PERKINS reason out of vvhich it would necessarily followe And because M. PER. confoundeth this point of worshipping of Saints with that of inuocation and hudleth them together nowe talking of the one then of the other besides al good methode and order and consequently maketh two Chapters of the same matter I will here in this former Chapter only treate of the worshipping of Saints drawing what M. PERKINS saith of this subject into this Chapter and referre the matter to inuocation vnto the next His second reason then against worshipping of Saints may be that which maketh the third in the 14. Chapter Christ refused so much as to bowe the knee vnto Satan vpon this ground because it is written thou shalt worshippe the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serue To this S. Augustine hath answered 1200. yeares agoe vpon those vvordes of Genesis Abraham adored or worshipped the people of the land Cap. 23. Quaest 61. super Genesiâ— It may be demanded saith he howe it is written thou shalt adore thy Lord God and him only shalt thou serue when as Abraham did so honour that kinde of people that he did adore them but we must obserue that in the same Commandement it is not said thou shalt only adore thy Lord thy God as it is said him only shalt thou serue which in Greeke is Latréysis for such seruice is due to God only So that in briefe this most learned Father answereth our Protestants that the seruice proper to God called Latria is to be giuen to none but to God Marry that vvorship and adoration expressed in the former part of that sentence may be giuen to others and that Abraham gaue it very well vnto the people of Heth. Nowe our Sauiour had great reason not to yeeld so much as one jote of that meaner worship to Satan because he excelled him in nothing but small reason haue our Protestants to reason thus as in effect M. PER. doth Christ would not vvorship the Deuill therefore Christians may not worship Saints as though Saints were no more to be worshipped then the Deuill a holy comparison and vvell worthy a hell-hound But he goeth forward and addeth Act. 10. that Peter would not suffer Cornelius so much as to kneele to him though saith he Cornelius intended not to honour him as God therefore neither Saint nor Angell is to be honoured so much as with the bowing of the knee if it carry but the least signification of diuine honor Answere Doe you marke vvhat vvarre this man is at vvith himselfe first he saith that Cornelius intended not to adore Peter as God after headdeth that kneeling if it carry but the signification of Godly honour is not to be given to Saints which conclusion of his we grant to vvit that no inward or outward vvorship if it proceede from a hart meaning to exhibite diuine honour is to be giuen vnto any other then to God and therefore did I declare before that by the externall kinde of worshipping we cannot discerne whether the party meane to offer diuine religious or ciuill honour to him whome he honoureth but that is to be knowne of the party himselfe or by conjecture to be otherwise collected To the purpose if Cornelius meant to adore S. Peter as some petty God as S. Hierome gathereth out of the text Lib. contra Vigil which hath that he did adore S. Peter falling at his feete and S. Peter lifting him vp said arise my selfe also am a man then is there nothing against vs who doe also forbidde all men to adore and giue Godly honour vnto any Saint or Angell If it were a lesser kinde of religious worship which was due to Saints then we say with S. Chrysostome vpon this place that S. Peter out of his humility and consideration of humane frailty refused that honour albeit it vvere due vnto his excellent piety and singular authority The like answere is to be giuen vnto that place of the Apocalipse Cap. 19. vers 10. vvhere the Angell forbadde S. Iohn to adore him vvhich M. PER. had forgot to alleage For either S. Iohn tooke the Angell to be God as he spake in the person of God and so by mistaking the person offered him diuine honour Quaest 61 â—n Genes Greg. lib. 27. Moral c. 11. Bed Anselm alij in illum locum as S. Augustine supposeth and vvas justly reprehended by the Angell and instructed that he vvas not God but his fellowe seruant or as many others ancient and learned Authours thinke S. Iohn as one that very well knewe what he had to doe did dutifully worship such an heauenly creature as Gods Ambassadour to him for otherwise he was not so dull or forgetfull as to haue the * Cap. 22. vers 8. second time fallen into the same fault Neither did the Angell reprehend him but after a most curteous manner willed S. Iohn not to doe him that honour because he knewe well howe dearely beloued S. Iohn was vnto our Sauiour and that perhaps S. Iohn was to haue a higher seate in heauen then he had vvherefore he vvould not take that honour of so great a personage To these reasons of M. PER. vve may adde some fewe scraps of authorities which he hath swept together De vera relig 53. Augustine we honour the Saints with charity and not by seruitude neither doe we erect Churches to them And they are to be honoured for imitation but not to be adored with religion Answere Marke that in both the sentences he teacheth vs plainly to honour and worshippe the Saints as we doe honour the Saints they are to be honoured Marry he addeth as we also teach after him that no diuine and Godly honour be giuen them vvhich he describeth in those wordes with seruitude and with religion The Saints saith he euen here as in many other places of his learned vvorkes are to be vvorshipped but not vvith such worshippe as seruants or creatures owe to their soueraigne Lord or creator they are to be honoured but not with religion being taken precisely for the chiefe act of religion which concerneth only the honor and worshippe of God Churches are not to be builded to Saints nor Altars erected to them nor Sacrifice offered to them All this we graunt in such sort as S. Augustine himselfe doth declare that is these diuine offices are to be performed to no other then to God alone yet all may be done in the memory and to the honour of Saints Let this one place of S. Augustine serue the turne where
he saith Lib. 20. coÌ„t Faust cap. 21. that Christian people doe celebrate the memory of Martirs with religious solemnity both to stirre vp imitation as also tâ—â—â— they may be pertakers of their merits and helped by their prayers notwithsâ—â—â—ding saith he to none of the Martirs doe we erect Altars but to the God of Martirs yet in the remembrance of Martirs For who of the Priests in the places of their holy bodies standing at the Altar hath said at any time we offer vnto thee Peter or Paul or Cyprian But that which is offered is offered to God who crowned the Martirs at the memories of Martirs that by the admonition of the very places a greater deuotion may arise to enflame our charity both towardes them whome we must imitate as also towardes him by whose helpe we may imitate them We therefore worship the Martirs with that worship of loue and society wherewith holy men of God in this life are worshipped c. but them with so much more deuotion as we are more assured that they haue nowe passed all perill of this life Obserue good reader howe many points of the Catholike doctrine are confirmed by this one passage of so worthy a Doctor First Altars are built at the Martirs bodies Secondly Sacrifice is offered to God at the memories of the Martirs to encrease our loue towardes them Thirdly Martirs are to be worshipped of vs more then any holy men liuing Fourthly That with religious honour and celebrity they are to be worshipped yet not with any Godly honour as by Sacrifice erecting of Altars or building of Churches to them vvhich seeme to be the only externall actes of religion proper vnto God alone M. PERKINS second testimony is taken out of Epiphanius who commandeth that none be adored but God alone Let Mary be in honour Haeres 79. but let God only be adored Againe Mary is holy and to be honoured but not to adoration Answere Who seeth not that this holy Father teacheth vs to honour and worshippe that blessed Virgin Mary and the other Saints Marry not with Sacrifice as he there disputeth against them vvho offered Sacrifice to the Virgin Mary or any other such like adoration vvhich is proper to God alone A third testimony M. PER. produceth against himselfe out of S. Cyril when Iulian the Apostata objected against the auncient Catholikes that which Protestants doe against vs nowe a-dayes that they worshipped their Martirs as God Lib. 9. 10. Cyril saith M. PER. answereth then plainely as we Catholikes doe nowe that Christians indeede did honour their Martirs but not with adoration and Godly honour His wordes are We affirme not our Martirs to be made Gods but we vse to bestowe all honour vpon them In primuÌ„ cap. Rom. The fourth and last testimony is borrowed out of S. Ambrose Is any so madde that he will giue to the Earle the honour of a King yet these men doe not thinke themselues guilty who giue the honour of Gods name to a creature and leauing their Lord adore their fellowe seruants as though there were any thing more left for God Answere S. Ambrose there inueigheth as S. Paul doth against Pâ—â—â—â— Idolaters that gaue the glory of God some to men their fellowe seruants some to fowles some to serpents and such like all vvhich is very farre vvide from the marke of the present question For he that condemneth men for giuing Gods honour to foolish or beastly creatures doth not reprehend them which honour and worship Gods seruants with such honour only as is due to them And thus much in confutation of M. PER. reasons against worshipping of Saints nowe to an argument or two in fauour of the Catholike party All men are to be honoured by the lawe of nature with such honour as is correspondent and due vnto their vertue and dignity which the Apostle confirmeth saying Rom. 13. vers 7. render to all men their due c. to whome honour honour c. but a kinde of religious and supernaturall honour and worship is due vnto the Saints in heauen ergo we are bound to render that their due worship vnto them That religious honour is due vnto them is most cleare to all that know vvhy honour is due vnto any man If honour be due vnto Nobility of birth as it is commonly holden the Saints are the Sonnes of God the most honourable Lord of heauen and earth If to be admitted to be one of a Kinges priuy Councell maketh a man honourable then the Saints are honourable 1. Cor. 13. vers 12. Apocal. 2. vers 27. who as S. Paul saith doe see God face to face and knowe him euen as they are knowne If to be aduanced vnto some high gouernement make a man honourable the Martirs whome Christ doth place to rule over Cyties and Nations are honourable Briefly if excellent vvisdome singular valour and such like heroycall vertues make men honourable as all men confesse then are the Saints in heauen most honourable vvho so farre exceeded in all such heroycall vertues of which the Philosophers vvrite all others as farre as heauen surpasseth the earth so that it remaineth most euident that the Saints are to be worshipped And as their excellent vertues doe proceede from a more noble fountayne then the nature of man to wit from the grace of God and doth therefore without comparison furmount all morall and ciuill either vertue or dignity so are they with a more spirituall and religious kinde of worship to be vvorshipped and reuerenced It may be said that albeit the Saints be so very honourable yet because they be of another region they are not to be honoured by vs that be strangers and foraigners to them but this objection S. Paul hath long sithence preuented who saith expresly to Christians Bretheren yee are not guests and strangers but Cytizens of the Saints Ephes 2. and houshold seruants of God If then one Cytizen be to reuerence another his better and one seruant another then are we to worship the Saints in heauen who are our fellowe Cytizens and seruants yea they are members of the same body of Christ of which we are though they be nowe in triumph for their lawfull fighting here and we yet in warrefare to attayne vnto the same triumphant estate Yea for the deare and mutuall affection vvhich is or should be betweene these two partes of the said Church S. Paul calleth that Hierusalem which is aboue our Mother Gal. 4. vers 26. and ought vve not to reuerence honour and vvorship our Mother thus much of our former argument grounded in reason Nowe to another taken from example which alone is more then sufficient to settle any good Christian in the faith of this point thus it may be propounded Both Iewes Pagans and Heretikes that is all sortes of vngodly and misbeleeuing men did finde great fault with the auncient true Christians for worshipping of Saints and their Relikes and called it Idolatry as
other shall come in his owne name him you receiue that is Antichrist but the Iewes haue not yet receiued the Bishop of Rome for their Messias Nay they take the Pope for the greatest enemy of their religion in the world and like much better of all them vvho vvith-drawe themselues from society in religion with him Vers 9. Finally it is there said that Christ with the spirit of his owne mouth shall kill that man with the manifestation of his aduene or comming whence the learned interpreters gather first that Antichrist shall be punished with a very extraordinary and exemplare death which hath not hapned to any of these Popes Secondly that Antichrist is to tyranize only some fewe yeares before the latter comming of Christ to judgement which cannot stand with the Protestants computation of Antichrists raigne which they drawe nine hundreth yeares in length already and yet are vncertayne howe much remayneth behind By this I hope you see howe well you may trust M. PER. on his word another time who blushed not to affirme all the circumstances of the man of sinne related in that Chapter to agree most fitly vnto the Pope of Rome when as not one sentence there penned by the Apostle doth touch him any whit at all but are only by the wresting of his enemies violently torne and cast vpon him Nowe to M. PERKINS last reason which is taken from the testimony of the auncient Church Cyprian saith De simpl Praelator Doubtlesse the same were the rest of the Apostles that Peter was indued with equall fellowship both of honour and power but a beginning is made of vnity that the Church may appeare to be one Answere Doubtlesse here is a prety peece of cosinage for the words are strooken out vvhich vvould haue made all playne against the Protestants for S. Cyprian there saith that the beginning proceedeth from one and the primacy is giuen to Peter that the Church may appeare to be one So that he allowing all the Apostles to be equall in honour being all of the same calling and power to preach the Gospell to all nations yet affirmeth the Supremacy to haue beene giuen vnto S. Peter that by that vnity of one head the Church might be kept perpetually in vnity of one faith and vniformity of religion Note howe his owne vvitnesse doth giue playne euidence against him Gregory saith If one be called vniuersall Bishop In regist lib. 6. epist 118. the vniuersall Church goeth to decay And cap. 144. I say boldly that whosoeuer calleth or desireth to call himselfe vniuersall Priest in his pride he is a fore-runner of Antichrist And lib. 7. cap. 30. Behold in the preface of your Epistle a proude title calling me vniuersall Pope Answere I could vvish that the cause might be determined by that blessed Bishop S. Gregories sentence it were then already gayned on our side for in those bookes of his Epistles he doth almost nothing else but declare the Popes Supremacy in ordering of all Ecclesiasticall matters and that ouer all Countries but whence the Bee sucketh hony thence also the Spider draweth some poyson They regard not what or how much he vvriteth there in fauour of the Supremacy but they thinke to haue some aduantage for their cause out of that vvhich he writeth against the name of vniuersall Bishop or Priest but they are miserably deceiued for one may very well be supreme head of the Church and yet not vniuersall Bishop as S. Gregory there taketh that word For he is only an vniuersall Bishop after S. Gregory who is Bishop in euery Diocesse of the vniuersall Church other Bishops being but his Suffraganes or Deputies such an vniuersall Bishop is not the Pope for excepting the speciall points of his prerogatiues he is not to intermedle with the particular businesse of my other Bishop within his Diocesse no more then the Archbishop of Canterbury is to deale with the gouernement of any other Bishop vnder him sauing in cases of his prerogatiue But euen as it appertayneth vnto the Metropolitane to compose the controuersies that may arise betweene the Bishops of his Prouince and to determine all such causes as by appeale or otherwise belong vnto his court to call a Prouinciall Councell and to confirme the decrees of it and to make Ecclesiasticall Canons and constitutions for his Prouince in like manner doth it appertayne vnto the supreme Pastor of the Church to appease and end all debates that shal happen betweene the Metropolitanes or Priuates to judge of some such matters of great moment that may by appeale be very worthylie referred to his court to call generall Councels and to be President in them to make Ecclesiasticall lawes for the vvhole Church in vvhich and such like matters the point of his Supremacy principally consisteth And these vvere all most carefully vndertaken and practised by S. Gregory though he misliked the name of vniuersal Bishop because that did seeme vnto him to exclude all other Bishops from their proper dignities and callings Lib. 7. epist 69. as he expoundeth himselfe saying If there be one vniuersall Bishop it remayneth that you be no Bishops And if you make one vniuersall Patriarke you depriue all the other Patriarkes of their title and dignity l. 4. ep 36. In this sence tooke S. Gregory the name of vniuersal and therefore did justly refuse it himselfe and very sharply reprehended the Patriarke of Constantinople for vsurping of it for although in a good sence it might haue beene attributed vnto the Sea of Rome who is supreme Pastor of the vniuersall Church yet it could not without apparant pride and arrogancy be vsed of the Patriarke of Constantinople who had nothing to doe vvithout the compasse and limits of his owne Patriarkeship The testimony of S. Bernard is easie to be answered for he saith only that Eugenius is not Lord of Bishops but one of them and that he is not to drawe all power to himselfe but to leaue to euery Bishop and Archbishop his bretheren in gouernement their proper causes all vvhich vve say with him But he returneth to Pope Gregory who saith That he was subject to the Emperours commandement and had euery way dischardged that which was due in that be had performed his allegeance vnto the Emperour and yet did not conceale what he thought in Gods behalfe Answere VVhy did he not cite the place where S. Gregory hath these wordes there lurketh some padde vnder that strawe but he might very well vse such wordes excepting the word allegeance which sauoureth of a false translation Per Ioh. Diaconū l. 4. c. 58. For S. Gregory as it is to be seene in his life was of so profound humility that he called all Priestes his Brothers al Clarkes his Sonnes and all lay-men his Lordes or Masters and so might well vvrite vnto the Emperour that he was subject to his commandements for it is an vsuall phrase both in Italy and France to call all their friendes requests
commandements Besides S. Gregory did dispatch much businesse in and about Rome for the Emperour in his absence and so might vvrite that he had faithfully discharged the trust that the Emperour reposed in him yet in the very Epistle whence Caluin piketh some like wordes Lib. 4. epist 31. He doth admonish the Emperour that he ought to doe reuerence to Priests and putteth him in minde of Constantine the great who would not presume to judge of Bishops causes albeit the Bishops themselues requested and desired him so to doe And thus much in answere to that which is objected out of S. Gregory nowe if you desire to see vvhat this holy Bishops opinion vvas concerning the Supremacy of the Sea of Rome reade the 72. Epistle of his first booke vvhere he commandeth That if any out of Numidia the remotest part of Afrike desired to come vnto the Apostolike Sea of Rome that they should be permitted And in the 37. of his second booke doth signifie That all the foure Patriarkes might appeale vnto his court of Rome and could not afterward remoue the case from thence without great scandall and contumacy And in the 7. booke epist 63. doth in most expresse tearmes declare That without all doubt the Patriarke of Constantinople was subject vnto the Sea Apostolike And in the 64. addeth That all Bishops are subject vnto it saying For in that he saith himselfe to be subject to this Sea if any fault be found in Bishops I knowe not what Bishop is not subject to it And further l. 4. epist 52. It is euident vnto all that know the Gospel that by our Lordes voyce the chardge of the whole Church was committed vnto the most blessed and Prince of all the Apostles S. Peter And in his exposition of the fourth penitentiall Psalme affirmeth The Church of Rome to be head of all Churches And l. 14. Moral c 19. teacheth That Priests not Princes are the chiefe members of the Church And lib. 5. epist 25. speaking of the Emperour Maurice saith I knowe the most pious Princes to line discipline to keepe order to reuerence the Canons of the Church and not to intrude themselues into the businesse of Priests This may suffice to assure him that cannot reade S. Gregories vvorkes of his opinion in this matter and a hundreth times more may he finde that wil take the paines to peruse that his worke of Epistles called registrum By this may be answered that vvhich M. PER. citeth out of Pope Leo 4. that liued as he saith two hundreth yeares after Gregory That he professed obedience vnto his imperiall commandements to be but an vsuall Italian phrase And vvith what congruity he citeth one of them to professe obedience of curtefie to the Emperour whome they account to haue beene no better then Antichrist in his full pride and to haue acknowledged no other man for his head yea to haue extolled himselfe aboue God as they blaspheme I leaue it to the consideration of the wise Hitherto in answere of M. PERKINS objection against the Popes supremacy It followed in due order that hauing disputed against that he should haue confirmed his owne opinion for the supremacy of Kings Princes for it doth not followe necessarily that if the Pope be not head of the Church that then the King is for Patriarkes or Primates may be in the seuerall Prouinces or else the graue learned Senate of consistoriall Ministers and rude artificers called forsooth Elders of the congregation But M. PER. towardes the end of his booke waxeth slouthfull and hath omitted also to propose any arguments in our behalf yea he doth not propose one reason in proofe of his owne position Nay vvhich is most reproueable he doth in his owne arguments made against the Popes supremacy vtterly subuert the Kinges supremacy as you haue heard already in his first and fourth reasons To vvhich I will adde a third gathered out of him in an hundred places Nothing is to be beleeued as necessary to saluation that is not written in the word of God but it is not written any where in the new Testament that our Sauiour Christ committed the gouernement of his Church vnto Kings or temporal Princes therefore no such thing is to be beleeued or taught by any Christian There is so little said in fauour of their Supremacies in holy Scripture that M. PER. held it good policy not to goe about the probation of it Some are so simple as to alleage that of the Apostle S. Paul in proofe of it Rom. 13. Let euery soule he subject to higher powers but it falleth many feadomes to short of it for that sentence may be as wel applied to spirituall as to temporall gouernours Againe if he speake of temporall Magistrates most assured it is that he meant nothing lesse then to counsaile the Christians Romans to obey their Emperors who were then Pagans and persecutors in matter of religion The same answere will serue for their other text out of S. Peter 1. Pet. c. 2. vers 14. vvho biddeth Christians obey the King as the more excellent More excellent then whome vvhat then Priests and Bishops nothing lesse but more excellent then their Dukes Captaines and such like officers vnder them as it followeth in the text of which sort very fewe in S. Peters dayes were members of the Church and much lesse supreme heades in cases Ecclesiasticall so that there is no vvarrant in all the newe Testament for Kinges supremacy in matters of religion and as little is there in the old as shall be examined in due place vvherefore not to be beleeued of any Protestant And in very equity and true naturall light how is it likely that temporall Princes both slenderly studyed in matter of Diuinity and nothing practised in the manner of Ecclesiastical gouernement should be chosen as fittest persons to decide all doubtes in Diuinity and to order and determine all controuersie in Church gouernement or shall we thinke that our Sauiour had such a simple fore-sight or slender care of his Church as to commit it specially to their chardge vvho vvere both least able and most vnlikely to looke well vnto it Women also and children may be lawfull Kinges but to make them supreme Gouernours of causes Ecclesiasticall vvherein children cannot and vvomen may not speake is most ridiculous And if all other proofes fayled the very experience of our age were sufficient to perswade any reasonable man that it is most absurd to be ruled by temporall Princes in matters of religion for it would followe of it necessarily that a Christian were bound to conforme his conscience to the Kinges lawes and to embrace that religion which the King commandeth him because he is bound to obey his superior appointed by God And consequently my father for example who liued in King Henryes the eight King Edwardes Queene Maryes and Queene Elizabeths daies should haue changed his religion foure times in his life and that vvith a very good conscience because he
vvas so commanded to doe by the formall lawes of those foure his temporall Soueraignes and so might without any offence to God haue beene nowe of the old religion then of the newe and againe of neither old nor newe but of a hotch-potch and mingle-mangle of some of the one and some of the other vvhich is most absurd euen so is that of which it followeth And to confirme this with some testimony of antiquity S. Ambrose a most firme pillar of the West Church spake resolutely vnto the Emperour Valentinian saying Epist 35. Trouble not your selfe ô Emperour with thinking that you haue any imperial jurisdiction ouer those thinges that be Diuine and Holy for the right of Ciuill causes was committed vnto you but not the chardge of Holy thinges And another his auncient S. Athanasius Epist ad solita vitaÌ„ ageÌ„tes the first of the foure Doctors of the Greeke Church doth reprehend the Emperour Constantius for intermedling vvith Ecclesiasticall causes and recordeth an notable saying of that venerable Bishop Hosius vvho vvas present at the first generall Councell of Nyce vnto the same Constantius to vvit Command vs not ô Emperour in this kinde of affaires rather learne these thinges of vs for God hath committed the Empire to your chardge but hath bequeathed vnto vs and put vs in trust with the affaires that appertayne vnto his Church And therefore vvould not that most renowmed Emperour Constantine the great judge of Bishops causes although the Bishops themselues referred theiâ— matter to him and requested him to compose them but said That it did not belong vnto him to judge them but to be judged by them vvhose blessed steps the most learned and juditious Emperours that followed him chose rather to followe then the euill example of his Arrian Sonne Constantius For Iustinianus the elder that famous lawe-maker faith vnto Iohn the second Pope of that name In Codice tit primo We doe not suffer any thing to passe that belongeth vnto the state of the Church but that we make it knowne vnto your Holynesse who are the head of all the holy Church And Valentinian the Emperour in an Epistle vnto Theodosius vvriteth We must in our times mainetaine the dignity of â—uâ— reuerence vnto the most blessed Apostle S. Peter Extat inter praeambulas ad Concil Chalced. so farre-forth as the most happy Bishop of Rome vnto whome antiquity hath yeelded the principality of Priestly office aboue all others may haue place and power to judge of matters of faith and of Priests And thus much by the way against the Supremacy of Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall It remayneth nowe that I briefly proue S. Peter to haue had this Supremacy in his time and that therein the Bishops of Rome doe succeede him And for a foundation of this Question I take that for an assured truth vvhich the best Philosophers doe grant and the practise of the best and greatest Kingdome hath confirmed to wit That in one Kingdome it is best to haue one King and supreme gouernour assisted with the counsell of his wisest subjects which is so well knowne and confessed generally that he must needes betaken for a vvrangler that will denie it nowe then to our purpose Christes Church is but one state or spirituall Kingdome vvhich hath but one faith one baptisme and forme of Sacraments one true religion and solemne manner of diuine seruice Nowe seing vve are not to doubt but that he who purchased himselfe this one Church with the shedding of his owne most pretious bloud would haue it gouerned in the best sort therefore we must confesse that he hath ordayned one supreme Gouernour of it They say that this supreme Pastor is Christ himselfe and that he is alwayes present with it in spirit and by his word vvherefore there needeth no deputy or other in his roome This I haue once before confuted graunting that Christ is present to his Church in spirit and that he doth inwardly quicken and gouerne it but that is not sufficient for vnlesse we haue one certayne person visibly present to assure vs vvhich is the vvord of God and what is the true sence of all doubtfull places of it we shall neuer haue vnity of faith for if they who mistake the true sence must be left to their owne judgement and the direction of their owne spirit which they beleeue to be guided with the holy Ghost then shall vve haue so many heresies currant in the Church as there be Archeretikes to coyne and stampe them The like may be said for Sacraments and sacred rites of religion the which without one Supreme Moderatour cannot be kept vniforme so that it resteth most cleare that our Sauiour Christ being to leaue this world and to returne vnto his heauenly Father he was to commit the high charge of his only Spouse and Doue vnto the custody and fidelity of one supreme Pastor This is confirmed by the example of the old Testament vvhich vvas a figure of the newe Deut. 17. ab 8. ad 13. vvhere the soueraigne and supreme authority of deciding all doubtfull questions that should arise about the lawe was by Gods expresse order giuen vnto the high Priests and euery Israelite bound vnder payne of death to obey him and stand to his sentence And that this Supremacy continued all along the state of the old Testament euen vntill Christes dayes both the Magdeburgenses and Caluin doe testifie Centur. 1. lib. 1. c. 7. Lib. 4. Instit ca. 6. But the Protestants object that some Iudges and Kinges of Iuda did take vpon them to deale in matters appertayning to religion I graunt that good Kinges as principall members of the temporalty ought to haue a speciall regard to the preseruation of the seruice of God and to see that matters of religion be duly ordered because the peaceable gouernement of their temporall affaires dependeth much vpon the concord piety and vertue of Ecclesiasticall persons and therefore they are to admonish and call vpon the Bishops and Gouernours of the Clergy to redresse all disorders among them but not to meddle by themselues as their superiours in spiritual causes so did those good Kinges of Israell as it is recorded of one of the best of their King Iosaphat who sought for reformation of Church matters 2. Paralip 19. But reserued the Presidency of those thinges which appertayne vnto God vnto Amarias the high Priest And nowe a-dayes we giue many priuiledges to Princes as the denomination of most Bishops and higher Magistrates of the Church that the two states spirituall and temporal may the better agree and liue more peaceably together S. Augustine also doth declare it to be the duty of Kings to defend the Church and her decrees and to punish with seuere lawes all Heretikes and other condemned by the Church But directly to the former objection let the places of the old Testament be perused where the authority and right of Kinges be specified and you shall not finde
doe not wholy and inuiolably hold all the points of faith that she professeth but renounceth them and declareth them to be accursed wherefore no Protestant can be in the Church of Rome But they say That their Church lay hidde in the Roman as corne in chaffe Did it in deede lie in such obscurity that none of them were to be seene or heard off therefore it was no Church at all for the most proper markes of the Church according to their owne principles are The true preaching of Gods word and the sincere administration of the Sacraments Nowe preachers of the vvord must be both seene and heard also and they walked not inuisible I hope vvho ministred and receiued their Sacraments wherefore they must either graunt that their Church in that generall Apostacy was visible or that it was no Church at all as not hauing the inseparable markes of their Church which are The true preaching of the word and due administration of the Sacraments Againe if they had beene liuely members of the true Church how could they liue vnknowne in that great Apostacy were they not bound in conscience to haue made profession of their faith publikely Rom. 10. vers 10. Math. 10. vers 33. S. Paul saith yea With the hart we beleeue vnto justice but with the mouth confession is made to saluation And our Sauiour saith He that shall deny me before men I also will deny him before my father which is in heauen If they were such crauens as made more account of their owne ease and safety then of the truth of their religion and glory of God they were rather cockle ouer-sowed by the enemy among the good-seede Math. 13. vers 25. then like vnto corne hidden in chaffe In vaine for them also vvas that voyce sent from heauen and recorded by S. Iohn which M. PER. taketh for his text Goe out of her my people for these dastardly faint-harted fellowes would giue no eare to it but loued better to hide their heades in some musty corner then vvith danger of their liues to separate themselues from those abhominations If then there vvere any such false harted dumbe and deafe reprobates hidden among others let the Protestants take them if they please for their worthy ancestors But no reason in the world to cal them the true Church of God that had neither true loue of Gods honour nor of their neighbours good and conuersion otherwise they would not haue holden their peace seing Gods holy name so miserably prophaned as they thought Thus much of M. PER. position nowe to his proofe If any man aske them where their Church was before Luthers dayes he answereth out of this text Goe out of her my people that it was euer since the Apostles dayes Let vs drawe this to some forme of argument that it may appeare how it hangeth togither A voice from heauen cryed in S. Iohns dayes to the Church of Rome Goe out of Babilon that is depart from the congregation of the wicked Heathens and Pagans therefore the Protestants religion hath beene euer since the Apostles dayes Apply Iohn Barber and thou shalt haue a newe paire of sizors for thy labour Should not a man leese his labour to confute particularly such a sencelesse discourse But yet a word to his next annotation vpon the text Demanding whether the Church of Rome he a Church or no he answereth That if it be so taken as in truth it is it is no Church at all His proofes are That it is Babilon that it peruerteth the true sence of the Scripture and ouerturneth the inward baptisme all which I haue heretofore confuted Here I will but demand whether this assertion of his doth not vndermine and blowe vp his former for if their hidden Church were no where but in the Roman for nine hundred yeares together and that Roman were no Church at all then surely their Church was not at all which had no being and existence but in the other which vvas not at all I may not here omit to note by the vvay vnto the gentle reader out of S. Augustine In illa verba ps 85. TV SOLVS DeVS MAGNVS Pag. 338. Howe they robbe Christ of his glory and inheritance bought with his pretious bloud who hold that his Church failed and was fled into corners Yea S. Hierome further affirmeth That they make God subject to the Deuill and a poore miserable Christ who hold that his body the Church may perish or be so bidden that it cannot be heard off Wherefore omitting such impertinent stuffe let vs come vnto those horrible crimes that he chargeth the Church of Rome withall The first is no lesse then Atheisme to vvhich I haue fully answered in the preface of this booke wherefore I doe omit it here doe come to the second crime of Idolatry Which saith he is as grosse among vs as euer it was among the Heathens See the foule mouth of a preacher howe proueth he this Marry it is to be seene in two things first they worship the Saints with religious worship which is proper to God O most impudent doe we make Saints creators of heauen and earth omnipotent infinitely wise and good or giue them any kinde of honour due vnto God only see that question and detest the sonnes of the Deuill that blush not to auouch such monstrous lies But we make the blessed Virgin Mary a Mediator of redemption Fie vpon such an impudent face but we call her a Lady a Queene be it so For so did Athanasius in Euang. de sanctiss Deipar apply those wordes of the 44. Psalme The Queene standeth on thy right hand in a golden vestement c. So did Gregory Nazianzene in his Verses of her For thou saith he ô Queene by the diuine fauour camest to me So did holy Effrem in his Oration to her all which liued within foure hundreth yeares off Christ To omit S. Chrysostomes Lyturgy because they like it not But what of this shee is a redeemer O sencelesse that shee is called a Goddesse as they did call the Queene Elizabeth then liuing I reade not in any of the bookes quoted by him Missal Breuiar A mediatresse of intercession our hope our life and the like shee may be called in a good sence because we hope through the helpe of her most gratious prayers to obtayne the life of our soules and so may it be said to her Prepare thou glory for vs defend vs from our enemies and such like to wit by the meanes of her prayers Againe saith he their Idolatry is manifest in that they worship God in at or before Images Then are the Protestants also Idolaters because they vvorship God in or at the Churches at or before their communion table Whether we haue commandement or not for Images maketh nothing to Idolatry but whether we giue to Images the honour only due to God which we doe not Nowe to compare Images to adulterers is to dote and deserueth no
vulgar tongue or that all thinges necessary to be beleeued to saluation are contained in the Scriptures To be short not one article of their religion which is contrary to ours is contained in this Creede of the Apostles therefore to affirme as de doth all necessarie pointes of religion to be contained in this Creede is to cast their owne religion flat to the ground and to teach that not one point of it is to be beleeued this Creede may neuerthelesse be called the key and rule of faith because it containeth the principall pointes of the Christian religion and doth open as it were the doore vnto all the rest and guide a man certainely vnto the knowledge of them by teaching vs to beleeue the Catholike Church 1. Tim. 3. vers 15. Ioh. 16. vers 13. which being the piller and ground of truth directed and guided by the spirit of truth will alwaies instruct her obedient children in all truth necessary to saluation Then saith Master PERKINS The eternal truth of God the creatour shal depend on the determination of the creature Nothing lesse for Gods truth is most sincere and certaine in it selfe before anie declaration of the Church but vve poore creatures that are subject to mistaking and errour should not so certaynelie vnderstand and knowe that truth of God vnlesse he had ordained and appointed such a skilfull and faithfull Mistris and interpreter to assure vs both what is his word and what is the true meaning of it Like as pure gold is not made perfect in it selfe by the Gold-smithes touch-stone but other men are thereby assured that it is true and pure gold euen so the word of God doth not borrowe his truth from the Church but the true children of God are by the holie Church assured which is the same his word If we did hold as we doe not that the written vvord contayneth all pointes of doctrine necessarie to saluation yet vvere it most necessarie to relie vpon the Catholike Churches declaration both to be assured which bookes of Scriptures be Canonicall which not whereupon S. Augustine a man of farre better judgement then any of these daies said Con. Epist Iud. cap. 5. that he would not beleeue the Gospell vnlesse the authority of the Church moued him thereunto as also to vnderstand them truly because the wordes of holy Scripture without the true meaning and sence of them doe but deceiue men and leade them into errour and to that end haue alwaies beene and yet are by Heretikes abused to drawe others after them into destruction The like may be said of other ancient Creedes and confessions of faith which holding the Apostles Creede did adde some fewe pointes vnto it namely such as were in those daies called into question by Heretikes of greater fame and who were followed of many not touching in particuler diuers other articles generally beleeued of all true Christians or else by some fewe and obscure men only questioned Wherefore to argue that no other pointes of faith are to be beleeued but such as are expressed in ancient Creedes is to cut of a great part of our faith Lastly it is most vntrue to say that those ancient Fathers and Councels knewe not of these articles of faith by him mentioned for they haue most plainely taught them in their writinges yea and expresly condemned of heresie most of the contrary positions nowe againe reuiued and holden by the Protestantes as in those seuerall questions I haue before proued Touching beleeuing in the Church which he thrusteth in by the way we vse not that phrase as the very Creede sheweth following therein S. Augustine with others who hold that to beleeue in a thing is to make it our creatour by giuing our whole hart vnto it in which sence we beleeue not in Saintes nor in the Church albeit some other ancient Doctors take the wordes to beleeue in not so precisely but say that me may beleeue in the Church in Saintes that is beleeue certainely that the Catholike Church is the only true company of Christians and that to the lawfull gouernours thereof it appertaineth to declare both which bookes be Canonicall and what is the true meaning of all doubtfull places in them so we beleeue the Saintes in heauen to heare our prayers to be carefull to pray for vs to be able to obtaine by intreaty much at Gods handes in whose high fauour they liue Thus much in answere vnto that which M. PER. objecteth in generall nowe to that he saith in particuler He chargeth vs first with the breach of the third article Conceiued by the holy Ghost Which saith he is ouerturned by the transubstantiation of bread and wine in the Masse into the body and bloud of Christ for here we are taught to confesse the true and perpetuall incarnation of Christ beginning in his conception and neuer ending afterward Answ Here is a strange exposition of the Creede Is Christes incarnation perpetuall and not yet ended then it is true to say that Christ is not yet incarnate as we may say truly that a man is not borne vntill his birth be accomplished and ended But to the present purpose because Christes incarnation beganne at his conception cannot bread be turned afterward into his body how hangeth this together Belike he meanes that Christes body was but once conceiued and that was by the holy Ghost in his mothers wombe therefore it cannot afterward be made of any other thing This to be his meaning he declares in the question of the Sacrament but it is too too simple and childish For we hold him not to be so conceiued by bread as he was by the holy Ghost who was the efficient cause of his conception but that the same body that was cōceiued by the holy Ghost is made really present in the Sacrament by transubstantiation of bread into it which hath no opposition at al with this article as I haue more largely proued in the foresaid question And whereas he saith further cleane besides the purpose of this article that Christes body hath the essentiall properties of a true body standing of flesh and bone we grant the same but when he addeth that local circumscription cannot be seuered from a body he is deceiued for the greatest body of all others which is the highest heauen is not circumscribed by any place because there is no other body without it whose extreamities might compasse in and circumscribe that body of the highest heauen And when he saith that to be circumscribed in place is an essentiall property of euery quantity and that quantity is the common essence of euery body he makes himselfe but a common mocking-stocke vnto euery simple Logitian who knoweth that no accident such as euery quantity is can be of the essence and nature of a substance such as Christes body is Neither would any man say that cared what he said that to be circumscribed in a place is essentiall to euery quantity when all numbers that be quantities