A DISPVTATION OF THE CHVRCH Wherein the old Religion is maintained V. M. C. F. E. Ierem. 6.16 Aske of the old paths which is the good way and walke in it and you shall find refreshing for your soules LAVDA BILE NOMEN DOMINI AT DOWAY By MARCK WYON at the golden Phaenix 1629. TO MY FRINDS IN ENGLAND DEARE FRINDS I haue vnderstood of your troubles and doe take comfort in your constancie Your cause is cleere your religion that which the sonne of God hath taught In former time no other was in England So much you know by the Histories and Chronicles of the country so you haue ben told by your parents who sawe the profession of it with their owne eies so your ancestors doe testifie by their wills and graues Your Churches there were built for the exercise of it as you can prooue by the generall forme of them by the crosses and pictures by the altars made for Masse Euer since the conuersion of the country from Paganisme by Sainct Augustine and his fellowes monkes it hath beene there till of late and S. Augustine brought it from Rome where it had beene common from the time of S. Peeter and S. Peeter learned it of our Sauiour Iesus Christ Those that are learned if they will looke into the Ecclesiasticall History which diuers and of late the worthy Cardinall Caesar Baronius haue compiled may see there looking vpwards to the Apostles time this Religion descending thorough all ages in sacred esteeme euer the preachers gods trumpets proclaiming it the generall councells making roome the martyrs testifying the truth of it with their blood the light of miracles accompanying it all the way and worlds of people waiting on The Societie of those that professe it is the Church and is diffused ouer the World and Catholique it is that Church which in your Creede you doe beleeue This is the spouse of the sonne of God the woman clad with the sunne manifest vnto all that willfully do not shutte their eies by her antiquitie cleere successioÌ„ vniuersality and the twelue-fold Apostolicall glorie doth crowne her heade or beginning Shee hath beene opposed by diuers Heresies but still gotte the victory bringing foorth Saincts to Iesus Christ in the labour of persecution You know the counsell of the Scripture Sonne comming to the seruice of God prepare thy soule to temptation and the affirmation of the Apostle is generall All those that will liue godly shal suffer persecutâ—on The state of the Church heere is militant and those are to be crowned that ouercome The way to heauen is full of crosses mockeries stripes and the sword helpe vs on This way those are gone of whom the world was not worthy afflicâ—ed needie in distresse This way our blessed Sauâ—our went who was heere contemned scourgel crucified It is the King of Heauens high way Our heade is gone before all blood and so entered into blisse the Apostles the Martyrs the Confessoâ—s old Simeon too and little Agnes are gone after him with their crosses and wee are bid if will liue eternally to take vp each of vs one and followe To take the spoile of your goods with ioy is to enbrace and kisse your crosse There is no deliberation when I must leaue gold or god no comparison betwixt a diamond in a gold ring and the deitie in eternitie O my deare frinds you haue each of you a Iewell within your selues richer then all the eie can see without fairer then the sunne it self and farre aboue all the disposition of the stars The vsurers Idol gold waxeth pale if you compare it to the burning sparkles of the chrysolite In your Iewell you may see heauen and earth in the compasse of the vnderstanding It hath engrauen in it the image of allmighty God and is for nature next an angell by grace companion with him as being to beare a part in the heauenly quire and there without astonishment to sing allelluia with those thousand thousand glorious queristers if the fault be not yours The Soule hauing free will had once lost it self you may by the meanes taken to recouer it know the worth The sonne of God came from heauen downe to looke it and redeemed it with that which is better then the world his life Those infinite wrongs which he suffered from men of all sorts â—hose innumerable stripes which he receaued from the soldiers whose crueltie made him all a wound the bitter passion of the crosse which no words are able to expresse was all for our redemption for the soule If you loose it now againe you wrong his loue you depriue him of his right you moue his father whose angry lookes are burning fire to reueng It is horrible to fall into the hands of the liuing God The pillars of heauen do tremble and dreade at his beck He hath measured the water with his fiste and pondered the heauens with a spanne He looketh on the earth and maketh it to treÌ„ble toucheth the mountaines and they smoke If you keepe it well he will make it a heauen wherein he with the father and the holy Ghost will dwell foreuer And your bodies he wil invest with ornaments of glory aÌ„d immortallity and place each of you in a throne with himself in the court of heauen where all are kings You shall dwell in the celestiall Ierusalem whose streete is all of pure gold and walls pretious stone where God is the Temple and the light These things God hath promised vnto those who serue him wherefore aboue all haue a care of your religion Your soule is your Iewel and Religion is the Iewel of your sowle Keepe these well and you shaâ—l be happie though persecution leaue you nothing els Each of you may haue a common wealth a kingdome within your selues if you please No State more happie no gouerment more sweete then that is where loue commaundeth and vertues do obay Let Charitie be Queene in your soule and the Vertues will all bâ— there Let men see the streingth of your faitâ— in your constancie and the sanctitie of it in tâ—e candor of your conuersation Giue all men theâ—r due to whom tribute tribute to whom Feare Feâ—re to whom honour honour In your actiâ—ns be circumspect as it becommeth Christians who beleeue the eies of God and Angels are oâ— them still and that each action is inrowled exactly to be reade and censured in the day of doome Loâ—ke oft on the liues of Saincts and by their example learne how you are to carrie your selues in yoâ—r difficulties you will do things with more ease wheÌ„ you see them doÌ„ne before you those were menâ—s wee are Be not afraid of persecution The protâ—ction of allmighty God is more then a wall of brâ—sse they who trust in him are safe mountaines in ciâ—cuite of the holy cittie and our Lord round about his people Nothing caÌ„ rob vs of our soules vnles wee will and if that be saued wee shall haue all that God hath for wee shal haue him Our
you knew me by another and whether I had euer vsed that I could not then readily call to mind You will say peraduenture that a circumstance tied your tongue This may be and therefore bearing respect that way too I will discouer you no further but leaue you at your liberty though otherwise being out of the Kingdome I might be more open then I am You haue infinitely wronged your owne soule in offering to drawe men from the communion the Church and to leade them into heresies opposite directly to the word of God and accursed by the holy Ghost Trouble not your self any further to dresse vp ould shifts that haue beene worne out long agoe If you cannot prooue your cause positiuely as none euer yet could or will doe as long as God is truth hold your peace The more you maintaine heresie the deeper a lodging you bespeake your self in hell That you may escape that gulphe I shewe you heere S. Peeters Shippe fairely vnder saile towards eternitie and will reach you my hand if you wil come into it F. E. APPROBATIO EGo infrascriptus S. T. Facultatis Parisiensis Doctor testor me legisse tractatum hunc inscriptum A Disputation of the Church hoc est Disputatio de Ecclesia in libros quatuor partitum Authore F. E. in quo nihil inueni vel contra fidem Catholicam Romanam vel contra bonos more 's sed econtrà eandem fidem Catholicam dilucidè probatam confirmatam propugnatam horum temporum haereses solidè ac clarè confutatas In cuius rei testimonium praesentibus subscripsi 17. Maij An. 1629. ANT. CHAMPNEVS VIsâ hac attestatione Doctoris Sorbonici censeo idem opus vtiliter excudi posse Actum Duaci die 28. Maij. 1629. GEORGIVS COLVENERIVS S. Theologiae Doctor regius ordinariusque Professor Duacensis Academiae Cancellarius in eadem Academia librorum Censor COurteous Reader I haue beene forced to vse a Printer who vnderstood not the language therefore wonder not if thou find heere errous in the print as diuision of syllables transposition of letters ill pointing c. In mending one fault sometimes he made another and I had not leisure to looke nicely to him If any doubt occurre in the reading be pleased to haue recourse to this place where the chiefest errours are amended The lesser committed by mistaking the letters or omitting or adding where the sense is not changed I will not speake of because he who cannot in reading supply such defects is not able by himself to make vse of the discourse Pag. 51. l. 17. cuppe pag. 52. l. 4. cuppe p. 90. l. 19. sight p. 96. l. 28. the kingdome p. 105. l. vlt. the temple p. 121. marg In Oper. S. Leonis p. 127. l. 16. and Eutichians after p. 146. l. 18. wee are p. 151. l. 13. then p. 155. 19. saue p. 185. l. 20. word p. 137. l. 15. neere p. 195. l. 13. sonnes p. 206. l. 6. abettors p. 237. l. 24. proceede p. 235. l. 7. is not p. 239. l. 25 in Israel p. 283. marg fact And. p. 298. l. 10. reprehend and his making others by his example to Iudaize was p. 300. l. 16. in our p. 340. l. 7. of nature p. 344. l. 6. tripping p. 347. marg vnitatis p. 359. l. 16. iudgment The. p. 367. l. 3. therefore p. 376. l. 14. it is a. p. 403. l. 8. of all l. 22. thy p. 405. marg l. 6. 4. p. 410. l. 15. omit verie p. 412. l. 27. and p. 413. l. 1. 2. it wrong charact p. 416. l. 12. is p. 424. l. 4. hold p. 430. l. 7. a liuing victime p. 433. marg omit Origen c. p. 435. l. 32. if you beleeue the. p. 441. l. 4. testimony of S. Cypr. vnperf The leaues at the toppe are ill numbred but I followe them as they are Some of those English authors which I haue cited I had not by me and therefore was forced to cite them out of others and out of latine so that I may haue missed to giue the same words but haue kept the sense p. 129. l. 28. an 680. Fathers 289. THE FIRST BOOKE OF THE WANT OF EVIDENCE for the continuall Visibilitie and Existence of the Protestant Religion and Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Declaring that vnto Catholikes demaūding euidēce of the Protestant succession and visible existence at all tymes in the world since the Apostles no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to the Waldenses and such as they were IT were good in the begining for the greater perspicuitie of my discourse to define the thing Protestant whereof I am to speake in this booke but Martine Luther and Iohn Caluin your Apostles and authors of your sect or religion as you call it so detested each others doctrine whē they were aliue that they cannot yet endure one definition being dead In regard of this I was once about to leaue out the Lutheran partie which in England is of lesse note and to sute our English with a definition for their turne but this was lothsome to the Puritan who by noe meanes can abide to be shut vp with the Parlamentarian within the same termes It seemed therfore not amisse neglecting all priuate differences to content my selfe with that wherein they assented and to make a generall notion of the Protestant in common This I thought was easie and might serue well inough But eieing the substance of Protestancie neerer to take measure of the thing wherby my definition might be fit I found noe constant being but vncertaintie in the essence of it This substance being as you saie pointes fundamentall and these more or lesse as euery Spirit will which Spirit is diuers not in the multitude onlie but in the same man many tymes The Moone was abroade in the could frosty nightes without cloethes and her mother pittying her spake to Mercurie as the tale is tould for a coate Mercurie taking measure when she was full a fortnight after or thereabouts brought the garment but found her changed and the coate a great deale to bigge Home he went againe to cut it and returning then it was to little and with all his skill he could neuer make it fit the Moone being some tymes thicke some tymes slender in the wast sometymes horned sometymes round Wheruppō he despaired of the worke and gaue it ouer A hard taske it were for a painter to represent Proteus in a picture but it is harder far to make a definition of your Church her essence or substance doth euer varie and is sometymes greater sometymes lesse neuer constantlie the same Yet because I am to speake of it and without some kind of notion this cannot well be I take here a Protestant for a man of the religion so you call it now currant in England and the Protestant Church I take for a companie of such men 3. Now that you cannot prooue by good euidence the CONTINVAL SVCCESSION or existence of this companie this religion this Church at all
Pastors in it euer if that were the mysticall body of Christ for Christ appointed such till all meete Edantorigines EcclesiaruÌ„ suaruÌ„ euoluaÌ„t ordinem Episcoporum suorum ita per Successiones ab enitio decurientem vt primus ille Episcopus aâ—qâ—e ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis viris qui tameÌ„ cuÌ„ Apostolis perâ—euerauerint habuerit auctorem antecessoreÌ„ Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae sensus suos deferunt Tert. Praescript c. 32. And you must not aske them for they will shew you none but laie persons Let vs know what Councelles they haue kept and where what Nations they haue conuerted vnto Christ and by whom what Sainctes and Martyrs haue ben among them what Churches they haue erected what Heretickes they haue condemned and where and how and with what Nations and Princes they haue communicated and bring good Euidence to prooue it If this be the true Church conceale her not God is not ashamed of his Church if these people be the companie of holie ones let vs see their actions and good works If there were a continual succession of such men let vs see their monuments otherwise wee haue noe reason to beleeue that there were indeed any such in the tyme betwixt Waldo and our Sauiours ascension which are more then a thousand yeares If you will haue vs beleeue there were such all that tyme bring your proofe Lett vs know I saie and should repeate this question oft least you wittinglie doe forget it where they were from tyme to tyme what they did who were of their communion or tooke notice at least of theÌ„ as frindes or foes what writers they had what Bishops what Councels and this from age to age till you come to the Apostles daies The questioÌ„ is cleere the matter is of fact the thing of moment You haue bene searching these huÌ„dred yeares all papers and libraries and scrowles where is your answeare where is your euidence 6. If this were all donne which will be donne when tyme runnes backward and when euery thing whatsoeuer any minister for a shift can desire or imagine may be fouÌ„d euery where there would remaine yet a further taske and that were to shew that this religion of the Waldenses 2. Book 1. Ch. were vniuersall in regard of place or Nations But I need not vrge further for you are grauelled in the very first If you should offer to name Hus or Wickleffe I would proceed after the same manner with either of them and demaund proofe of their continuall succession euer since our Sauiour Christ did ascend and of their communion with Nations to verifie the Prophecies of the Old Testament and our Sauiours intention in the New and of their agreement with you in all pointes I would demaund euidence of all this of VVickleffe of Hus or of you for theÌ„ and desire to see the face of that Church her Actes and Monumentes her VVriters her Pastors c. And this with great reason before I beleeue it and embrace the communion of it and venture my soule in it because that which I demauÌ„d is hetherto vnknowne not to me onlie but to all the whole world THE SECOND CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to our Church 7. THe nakednes of your cause appearing manifestlie thorough the beggarie of the VValdenses you would hide your selues faine in our Church and therefore flinging of that poore shift as vnsufficient you saie next that your succession hath ben continued by vs. But you may not rest heere The thing which wee demaund is a continuall succession of Protestantes that is of men professing the religion now currant in England Bring your euidence that in euery age there were some of these men VVee are not of your religion wee haue openlie condemned it as hereticall in the Councell of Trent and you doe persecute ours in England condemning many pointes of faith which wee beleeue so that if you take vs to continue you to the primitiue Church and to the Apostles this continuation is not Protestant wheras a Protestant continuation is the thing wee demaund Goe not to fast but consider well what heere wee haue in hand I demaund a continuall succession of men of your Religion not of ours you are to giue accompt of your owne predecessors not of mine of Protestants not of Papists You must shewe your owne Cards and not mine if doe meane to winne the game Wee doe frequent the Masse beleeue vnbloodie Sacrifice adore the sacred Hoste pray to Saincts worship Angells beleeue a Purgatorie pray for the deade honoure Images Wee lay open our consciences to our Priests and acknowledge in them power to Absolue vs and a diuine precept obliging vs to Confesse Wee beleeue that our Sauiour doth impart vnto the reconciled power to redeeme by good and penall works the temporall paine due to sinne and that the Church hath power by way of Indulgence to release it Wee beleeue Traditions Merit Iustification by works Obseruation of the commandements and works of Supererogation Vowes and a fuller Canon of the Scripture then you doe In our Hierarchie wee haue Bishops Priests Deacons Subdeacons and others all which in substance you haue not but an outward appearaÌ„ce onely Wee acknowledge in the Pope a superioritie ouer the other Bishops in the Church in Generall approued Councells an Infallibilitie and in each Member of our Communitie an Obligation of conformitie in iudgment to the iudgment and Decrees of these Councells In these and such other things essentiall to our Religion wee are distinct from you and therefore it is childish to name vs for men of your Religion It is true that you pretend to beleeue some things wich wee doe as the Trinitie and Incarnation and some parts of Scripture Neuerthelesse in other things within the compasse of diuine faith and religion wee are distinct as by the premises it doth appeare All Heretiques that euer were beleeued somethings with the Church but that sufficed not to make them of the same Religion with it or among themselues Iewes beleeue somethings which Christians doe so doe the Turkes and the Naturalists who beleeue a God notwithstanding Catholiques Iewes Heretiques Turkes and Naturalists are not ALL of ONE RELIGION Horses and Asses are liuing Creatures but not of the same species with a man Lutherans and Caluinistes are not Catholiques The Pope is no Protestant the Bishops of our Church are not of your communion our Priests are consecrated to say Masse our People beleeue as their Pastors All abhorre your Heresie and detest your Schisme Your Bookes are against our faith your lawes against the exercise of our Religion You accuse vs of Idolatrie Superstition Errour Heresie Name others name YOVR OWNE and a CONTINVALL SVCCESSION of them name not vs. Your Religion in that it is distinct from ours is made vp partly of newe deuised stuffe partly of old ragges left vnto you from the torne coates of Iouinian Donatus Aerius Vide Coll. R. Chalc. c. 23.
Nouatus and such other found in ould nastie monuments If vppon her now for pittie you will pull the Waldesian habitte spokeÌ„ of in the former chapter the beggars coate I meane represeÌ„ting with partie coloured patches the peeces of her coÌ„stitution and lace it with the ragges you find in Illyricus it will be very trimme But how soeuer you may finde some ragges in Antiquitie it is still euident that after a busie search made by all your deuines into libraries and recordes you are not able to prudence a continuall succession of that kinde of men wherof you are or of that whereof VValdo was from waldo vpwardes to the Apostles I doe not saie a Catholique or vniuersall succession of them but a succession onlie though neuer so small you haue not in euery age a Nation nor one Diocese which were verie litle nor so much such is your beggarie as one man Much more vnpossible is it for you to produce a succession Catholique or vniuersall in that sort that in euerie age and euerie yeere since the Apostles it hath ben common to many Nations which is the condition of the true Church of God 9. You answeare againe and learnedlie as you thinke that in Fundamentall pointes the Romans were Protestant and therfore are well alleaged Are the negatiue propositions in the Bible Gods words aÌ„d de fide or wâ—ll you haue them all blotted out to satisfie the demaund though they were otherwise in not-Fundamentall Or as others cut out the distinction in Affirmatiues they were yours in Negatiues they were not VVhich distinction is laid in the way to catch woodcockes but hindereth not the course of our argument For the Roman Catholique holding those pointes which he doth is noe Protestant nor of the religion currant now a dayes among you And the Protestant is no Roman Catholique his Religion is not that which is currant in Italie in Spaine and other places vnited to the See of Rome wherfore in assigning Roman Catholiques you do not assigne a Protestant succession wheras the thing demaunded is a Protestant succession If I had ben to dispute with the VValdenses in Bohemia I would haue exacted the like proofe for the Religion currant among them that is as I haue tould you many tymes a companie of men of the religion currant now in England wherof some haue succeded others and this must haue bene euer since the Apostles daies if the successioÌ„ be continuall since that tyme. Wee doe not Demaund of you whether wee haue à succession in our Church that wee demaund of you is a succession of your owne of Protestantes not of Papistes of men professing the religion which you doe Shewe this succession produce your euidence to prooue that such men haue bene in all ages and then wee will examine your fundamentalles giuing you time till then for to thinke how many and which they be for assure your selues the common people doe perceaue your vnsufficiencie in answering to the demaund which you cannot flie without crossing and contradicting your owne selues For I aske you is a Papist a Protestant in religion you answeare no. I demaund againe giue me the Protestant succession the Church Protestant of former ages You answeare the Papistes succession was the Protestant succession and the Papisticall Church was the Church Protestant By which answeare graunting and affirming the Papisticall succession and Church to be the Protestant succession and Church you doe graunt and affirme a Papist to be a Protestant which before you had denied and still doe They see also that a Pelagian a Luciferian an Arian or any other hereticke may defend himselfe as you doe for each of them held the true religioÌ„ in part each held some affirmatiues and was negatiue as you speake in other thinges and each pretended that he did not mistake in fundamentalles 10. And wheras you say that you erre not in fuÌ„dameÌ„talles I answeare first that you speake at raÌ„dome aÌ„d by coÌ„iecture mearlie for to this daie you know not which all the fundamentalles are and therfore cannot be certaine whether you beleeue euerie one of them or doe not I answeare secondlie that the point of iustification is the ground and the soule of your religion and you mistake in that and contradict the scripture directlie in it and therefore erre fundamentallie You teach also that the Catholique Church may erre in matters of diuine faith which is a grosse fundamentall errour You denie the reall presence and holie sacrifice in the Masse which is likewise a fundamentall errour And by these and such like you are diuided from the Catholique and so fundamentallie different and diuided Neither is it any matter whether these and the like erroures be expressed in propositions affirmatiue or negatiue an Athyest by reason of one negation is of No Religion as they may be either way for by negatiue errours a man may be an Hereticke Turke Iew or Athiest according to the verities which in his errours he doth contradict To conclude it is cleare that these are shiftes to delaie tyme and to deceaue fooles for the thing wee demaund is a Catalogue of Protestant men such as in England you are of men holding those affirmatiues together with those negatiues which you do hould of men consenting with you in your religion and beleefe entirelie The like argument I would make against the Waldenses Hussites or any other for a man may beleeue the Trinity or the Creede with others and yet differ in ReligioÌ„ as we and you do whether the thinges be called fundamentall or be not called so for wee care not how you call theÌ„ of men which without anie tricke distinction paring of or adding to theÌ„ may flatlie be said to be of the religion ow curraÌ„t there in England of such finallie as being looked into thoroughlie and beheld round about are absolutlie Protestantes or men of your religion Produce the Catalogue of these men let your euidence come to light 11. Your men in the begining wanting companie and disliking the religion of the Waldenses and Hussittes would faine haue shaked handes with the Grecians and made an offer but they were instantlie refused and shaken of Censura Orientalis Ecclesiae as the world doth well know by their Censure in print euerie where You haue tould mee since and vnskillfullie that the Ethiopians are of your religion being demauÌ„ded proofe because it is against histories and against their Liturgies which are extant you are able to bring none neither can I imagine to what purpose you should runne thither vnles it were to get an out side which might keepe colour with the inside of your Church I remember your doctrine is that her soule is euer stained with actuall and Originall sinne and that all her actions are fouled in the same puddle to which doctrine of your owne I may adde by experieÌ„ce that she hath a foule mouth if you will needes haue all this walk in a black out side too you may goe
inhabited so mind full of God that she hath his words euer in her mouth and by this she is euer existent euer visible That Church or whore which you hunte after perished longe agoe for many ages she was not seene her faith was extinguished her religion drowned she was no where visible she had no face she vanished presentlie immediatelie after the Apostles dayes Our Religion in the meane tyme hathe bene vniuersall many hundred yeares it hath ouer flowed the Christian world none resisting and raigned vniuersallie without any debateable contradiction these thousand two hundred sixtie yeares And thus much of them both you confesse 18. I come now to speake of the religion of the Church primitiue or first six hundred yeares as you measure it and obiect that you doe not nor euer will be able to conuince by cleare and sufficient euidence that the Christian Church in those tymes was of the religion currant now in England and therfore you doe not conuince our vnderstandings that wee should leaue that religion which a thousand yeeres together was currant here in England being then allso by your owne confession the religion of the Christian world and communicate with your congregation And to shewe you here how hard a taske you haue in hand being to giue euidenee of the consent of those tymes with you in religion I will put three considerations in your way which declare the difficultie and indeede the impossibilitie of the taske The first shall be the iudgmeÌ„t of those who liued since that tyme aÌ„d before vs the second the testimonies of the Fathers theÌ„ selues who liued in that primitiue age the third the confession of your owne prime deuines and these I will runne ouer as brieflie as I can 19 First therfore our Religion or Papistrie as you call it had possession of the Christian Arg. 1 world before Luther nine hundred yeares together You confesse the same as wee haue seene aboue nu 16. as all histories doe prooue cleerlie and these Christians all on their Saluation haue deposed that theirs was the verie same religion with that which was commoÌ„ in the first six huÌ„dred yeares and receaued from the Apostles and from Christ himselfe Among them were greate Schollers graue Prelates and holie meÌ„ in great abundance and greater meanes to knowe which was the religion of their forefathers then are now wherfore the question being of fact onelie it is not possible to resolue it better now then those could resolue it then The question I say is now aÌ„d then was of fact as whether the knowne Church of God spred ouer the world in the sixt age for example did frequeÌ„t masse adore the blessed Sacrament confesse their sinnes to Priests fast lent pray to Sainctes and the like what wee knowe of these things wee haue by the relation or writings of others which were before vs for wee caÌ„not see so far immediately with our owne eies nor immediatelie heare them speaking in that age which is past many hundred yeares agoe Those before vs did learne of others that were elder the fourteenth age learned of the thirteenth the thirteeÌ„th of the twelfth the eight of the seuenth the seuenth was immediate vnto the sixt aÌ„d therefore had best meanes to resolue this point because these meÌ„ had their Being Instruction Baptisme Sacraments Orders Records the Bible and all others things from them we speake of that is from the sixt age aÌ„d being close to them of that age So compare the 6. age to the 5. the 5. to the 4. c. and in part allso liuing with them could see heare obserue remember and tell what they did Since therfore all these did beleeue and professe and teach vnto their successors and to their dearest frinds and children aÌ„d generallie vnto the world that theirs was the religioÌ„ of their forefathers it is too late for you now to endeauour to prooue the contrarie for you haue no kinde of historie no monument no relation no fathers writing no scrowle no obseruation in fine noe euidence touching the foresaid age but from them To this I adde that it is vnpossible for the whole Church in any age to erre which is so cleere that to man leaues any way to himselfe to be assured in any point of faith from Antiquitie or from the scripture or from the spirit who denieth it It is therefore vnpossible that for nine hundred yeeres together it should be mystaken in this great affaire of the religioÌ„ of the whole World before them And if the Spirit forsooke it for so loÌ„ge a tyme together notwithstanding Gods promise you labour in vaine to make men beleeue that he is at leÌ„gth returned in your tyme or another promise more faithfully establisshed now Better were it for you to beleeue with vs that allmightie God hath not violated his couenant wherof I spake before my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed Isay 59.21 and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seede from this present and foreuer And that his eternall ordinance stands in force whereof S. Paul speaketh saying that God gaue Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the saincts Ephes 4. v. 11.12 vnto the worke of the ministerie to the edifieing of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnity of faith 21. The second meanes or demonstration Arg. 2 is deduced larglie through all ages and out of all the Fathers writings by diuers of our men Thesaurus Catholicus Iod. Cocc among the rest you may looke vppon Coccius and Gualterius who haue expressed our consent with the primitiue Church so fullie and brought such euident and so resolute decrees of auncient Fathers against your errours Tabula Chronographica stat Eccl. Cath. â—aâ— Gualt that you haue dispaired longe agoe of euer winning the cause by this kinde of triall The authorities which they alleage are allmost infinite Coccius hath filled with them two great Tomes and my intention is not to make a booke of this matter but a peece of a Chapter onelie Brieflie therefore for exaÌ„ple I will giue aÌ„ instaÌ„ce in two or three such as doe come first into my minde You denie the primacie of the Roman See the beleefe of vnwritten Doctrine or Tradition the reall preseÌ„ce traÌ„substantiatioÌ„ or coÌ„uersioÌ„ of the substaÌ„ce of breade into the flesh of Christ oblatioÌ„ or vnbloody Sacrifice in the Church prayer for the dead inuocatioÌ„ of Sainctes Crossing c. In the Fathers wee reade thus S. Aug. Ep. 162. Iren. l. 3. aduers Haer. c. 3. The principalitie of the Apostolicall chaire hath euer florished in the Roman Church It is necessarie that euery Church that is all faithfull rounde aboute resorte vnto the Roman Church because of her more powerfull Principalitie in which Church the Tradition which is from the Apostles is allwayes kept by the faithfull which are round about Leo Sem 3.
fond persuasion any indifferent man who doth vnderstand Latine may do thus In anie maine controuersie of faith which you question and accuse this great companie I now speake of of innouation do you name the tyme when their doctrine first began and let him who would see the triall take Gualterius Coccius or some other of our Authors who write of that matter and he shall find another in the primitiue Church who did teach it before the tyme or partie you assigned whereby it will be euident vnto him that you were deceaued about the begining of it And if he follow the direction of the booke he shall finde the same in the Fathers I said in any maine controuersie of faith and not in any thinge whatsoeuer because the Church hath power to make lawes and prescribe ceremonies and therefore may introduce or alter such thinges according as the circumstances in her iudgment require For this reason I speake of points of faith or such things whose institution wee hold to be Diuine For example the substance of Baptisme is of diuine institution but Ceremonies haue beene added and the substance of the Masse is by diuine institution but prayers and Ceremonies haue beene and may yet be added by the Church 17. If you be discontented with this manner of proceeding from which without a preiudice you cānot disclaime at all I vrge an other and take learned men to scanne the businesse In the seauenth age when the Christian word was Papisticall and of our Religion as you confesse the Schollers and wisest men had the Fathers writinges and the Memories of the sixt age which you must needes graunt because the precedent age did leaue them to their posteritie the Fathers to their Children the Masters to their Schollers Now those of the seauenth age as I haue noted more fullie in the former booke Bysshops Pastors learned mē and generallie all the Church of that tyme hauing these pregnant and infallible meanes of informatiō by writings and otherwise did iudge and beleeue and therevppon did engage their part in heauen and eternall estate that they receaued their faith and Religion from the former age being the sixt Wherefore since a world of men in matter of Facte as whether their Fathers wēt to Masse praied to Saincts c. could not be deceaued the thing being subiect to the eie and there being infinite eies obseruing religiously what was donne it followes cleerlie since the world generally did then beleeue this to be the Religion professed by their Fathers that so it was 18. My fourth argument shall be this Papistrie as you terme it was the generall Religiō of the Christiā world in the tyme of Boniface the third as you may see in the Ecclesirsticall histories of that tyme whereby appeares that all generally did goe to Masse pray to Saincts confesse their sinnes c. and your men allso Arg. 4 do confesse it Againe the true Religion was once in Rome their communion once was withall the world and this Religion did remaine in the communion of Nations till the tyme of S. Leo and S. Gregory the Great as you may obserue in their bookes wherein their communion with the Christian world is manifest so compare the sixt age to the fift the fift age to the fourth c. as I before did the 7. to the 6. Now Sainct Gregory died in the yeare six hundred and fower and Bonifacius the third who in the tyme of S. Gregory had bene imployed at Constantinople came to be Pope and died also within the space of three yeares after in which space the Religion of the Christian world was not generally changed as wee see manifestly by all histories of that tyme therefore the Religion which was vniuersally in the world in Bonifacius his tyme was the same religion with that which was vniuersally in the world in tyme of S. Gregorye which Religion you confesse to be the right Moreouer that in the foresaid space of three yeares it was not changed besides the Testimony which is taken out of the histories of that tyme where no mention is made of such a change by friend or foe but all things currant as before in matters of faith I cōfirme first by the practise of Sainct Augustine and his companie who being sent by Pope Gregorie brought Papistrie from him into England as is largly obserued in the Protestants Apologie and by your learned men there confessed Prot. Apol tr 1. Sect. ◠I prooue it secondly by the writings of such as liued in the sixt Age wherein are expresly contained all pointes of Papistrie which you may finde in Coccius and Gualterius if you take the paines and I will put downe if it be required Thirdly it is not only incredible to any man of iudgment but also manifestly vnpossible by reason of the diuine ordinance and promise of Iesus Christ that all Christiā people in the space of three yeares without meeting in common Councell without resistance of any zealous men without force of armes or other constraint should generally change the religion of the whole world and conspire all generally for you cannot produce any one man who stood for your Religion in that tyme which you would haue vs beleeue was the Religion of the first six hundred yeares there is not in histories mention of any one Protestant man then resisting therefore I say againe it is vnpossible that they should conspire all all kingdomes all states all Prouinces all Natiōs all vniuersities all Bysshops and generally all men liuing learned and vnlearned good and bad Pastors and people against the Euidence of the former Religion against the Religion of the Christian world which you foolishly suppose to haue bene the Protestant howsoeuer against the Religion of the world before them maintayned to that tyme by Fathers Writings and Authority by the force and power of cleere Successiō in the Chaires of Christs Apostles by the word of God interpreted by the Spirit in knowne Saincts by consent of Nations and generally of the Christian world and finally by the seale of infinite miracles recorded euery where and fresh in memory which Religion they had seene exercised in all the Christian world with their owne eies and had practised their owne selues Yet this you make a companie of sillie people to beleeue on your word Isa 59.21 Io 14.16 Ephes 4.14 against a world of eie witnesses against all rhe men of that age yea against Gods couenant with his Church and against the expresse promise of Iesus Christ THIRD CHAPTER Further confirmation that the Companie of Christians in communion with the Bysshop of Rome is the Church 19. THe former Argument because I know you will striue what you can to cauil at it I will second with another taken out of the confession of your Deuines and though I loathe to rehearce their fowle speaches and errours against the Church and her doctrine yet some of thē here I will set in your way desiring the
England for example but in the world it shall allwayes bee ◠2. c. 1. for so much is euident by the Scripture Neither doth it followe God permittes some tymes one man to fall into Apostasie some tymes another therfore he will at once permitte all he permittes diuers to die before you ād for ought you knowe he may permitte any one man whom soeuer you can name or thinke of yea any one in all the world yet hence it is not cōsequēte that it stands with his generall prouidence to permitt euery one to die before you that so you may be last the onelie man a liue I answeare therfore that As by vertue of Gods generall prouidence in as much as he is author of nature there be still in the world men though some at all tymes dropp away so by vertue of Gods prouidence as he is author of the supernaturall order among men there be euer Catholiques in the world and so will be still as long as the world stands though some men yea some Nations and some perticular Churches do fall of 124 The next which is allso the last I am to speake of here lookes bigge ō all ād thinkes to make an ēd of our cause with one blowe The scope of it is to proue that all may erre and therfore that wee are not to be heard though neuer so many Councells and auncient fathers and worlds of people doe stand for vs and comes on in this manner The whol◠Church militant consisting of mē Wh◠are lyers may erre alltogethe◠as euery part thero◠Fulk ans◠to Count Cat. p. 89. All Christians that are or euer were in the world are men therfore it might happen that all haue erred though they were assēbled together neuer so orderlie because euery man is a lier If this argumēt did prooue any thing it would prooue that all Councells all Apostles all Euangelists all prophets hether to may for any thing you know haue bene in errour for all these were men and euery man is a lier This is the vp shott of your disputation this is the hauen you haue all this while bene sailing vnto this though first but a shifte wherunto you were driuen by the strength of authoritie brought against you is now your doctrine and a Conclusion in your bookes Our answeare is easie that man of himselfe might erre but by diuine assistance might be so guided that he erred not and no man can denie this vnles he denie that God is omnipotent or omniscious which if he doe the light of nature will condemne him Thus generall Councells are assisted thus were the Euangelists allso and thus the Prophetts though nor after the same manner all And the promise of the Assistance did more concerne the Pastors then the people Oecumenicall Councells then each Bisshop single the whole colledge of the Apostles more then one Though each Apostle being to teach the whole Church in the nature of an Apostle had this assistance too and our Sauiour praying for the sanctification of his elected in truth or for their perseuerance included the meanes allso of this perseuerāce of his elect in the truth which is the perpetuitie of his assistance vnto those in whome is the teaching authoritie respectiuelie to the whole in which those elected are though to pastors in particular vnknowne 125. But to looke now a little vppon you who are so resolute in your ignorance as to thinke that all may haue mystaken the truth which you haue foūd and haue bene forsakē by the Spiritte who singularlie fauours you I demaund of you the Spirittes darling and worlds fresh Oracle First how one may knowe that you are exempted frō the world of men which may erre alltogether or what other species or kind you and your witte belonge vnto that men should leaue the whole world though consenting and take your authoritie against them all the same Question would I aske of your fellowe Rainolds ād of Whittaker were they liuing but hauing vndertaken their cause the resolution belongs to you in their absēce Secondlie I desire a sight of your particular letters patents from Iesus Christ wherein the teaching Spiritte is thus singularlie bequeathed and addicted vnto you or to either of the forenamed in particular or Iohn white if you had rather togeather with a clause that though he breake his promise made vnto the Church and hath not as he said he would sente the allteaching Spiritte to the Apostles to their Successors or to the Church Catholique yet that that other promise no where extant for ought wee knowe made particularlie vnto you his deerest he will not breake and how you are sure he will stand to this clause Thirdlie I demaūd why the Catholiques of Englād be there commaunded and vrged allso to conforme their conscience to the doctrine of your Church and to rest in her iudgment and in the parlamentarie decrees for points of Religion though worlds of men as learned euery waie I speake least as your selues doe and haue maintained the contrarie to their dying daie as conformable to the Scripture to reasō ād to the practise of their forefathers time out of mind I demaund I saie why you proceede with thē in this manner before you giue euidēce that you are not in errour since you likewise are mē and all mē may erre as you tell vs. Euidence I say greater thē any these haue on their side I demaund further of your wisdome how you doe know and are certaine that the Euāgelists Apostles ād Prophetts did write those bookes which you take for diuine Scripture and how you doe know your selfe ād cā prooue to me there is no errour or mistaking in the matter if all mē may haue erred And I demaund further how you doe knowe that he which did write the first Gospell suppose he were S. Matthewe did not erre since he was a man and all men you saie may erre I demaund Fiftlie howe men shall come to be sure of the sense of a peece of Scripture and to haue the controuersies in religion determined Must he come to you why rather then to the Church which was before you were borne and had the promise of the Spiritte If to the Spiritte why rather to that in you them to that in the Church If to others why must wee goe to old Heretiques to Iewes to Pagans to Athiests rather then to the Church why should any knowe better then she or abounde more with the Spiritte then she doth I demaund next what an Heretique is and why he which opposeth himselfe in matters of faith to generall Councells to the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and to Gods word proposed by this Church and expounded by this Spiritt is not one And Seuenthlie I demaund whether this sinne be not against the holie Ghost and whether he who dieth in it shall be saued and admitted into the Church triumphant who thus opposed the militant and died a vowed enemy to her and to her
time in this world is but short the sunne runnes it ouer with infinite speede and the poste of nature is on the way how neere God only knoweth to giue vs notice of a dissolution wherein each of vs being as it were diuided one half is rendered to the earth to feede wormes the other caried away to the tribunall to heare a sentence of eternitie Happie are those who prizing God solidly aboue all and adhering to him as the fountaine of all good take this iourney with full resignation of their spirit and die in the Churche's armes I send you this booke desiring you to pâ—ruse it I would haue willinglie come my self to haue taken part with you but imployments tieâ— me heere In my youth when I had lost my best frind whose soule rest in peace I lost a greate deale of my time and it seemes almightie God hath so disposed of me that I must now repaire the losse If you find the thing lesse accâ—unte then you might haue expected you knowâ— my excuse When two imployments do meetâ— in a narrow vnderstanding and that but poorely lodged both do suffer Those who laboured in â—epairing the walls of Ierusalem whilst they did worke with one hand were forced in the other to take a sword I fight but with one hand The faults and imperfections heere are mine in the resolution the Catholique world doth agree and you haue the prayers of them all as long as you keepe your selues in their communion You haue also the prayers of all the Saincts in heauen the communion of the Church reaching thither And our Sauiour there doth mediate vnto his Father in your behalf You haue God an aduocate vnto God the Sonne to the Father doe not feare but serue him carefully and he will multiplie his blessings on you and if wee spend the few daies of our peregrination well will bring vs all in the end in to our cuntrey Heauen to the Church of the first borne to the company of many thousands of Angels where there is perpetuall Iubilie where God is all in all Then death shall be no more nor moorning nor sorrow There shall be no more hunger nor thirst neither shall the suâ—ne fall vppon you nor any heate and God vvâ—l wipe away all teares from your eies Fare â—ou well And let vs resigne our selues whollâ— to the blessed will of God and pray each foâ— other that wee may be saued Yours by manifold obligationâ— F. E. THe Quesâ—â—on Where a man is to seeke InstructioÌ„ in matteâ— of Religion The Answere In the Church in Communion with the See of Rome This resoluâ—â—on is heere declared in three Propositions 1. Thâ— Catholique Church is assisted by the Holy Ghost to all â—â—uth the third Booke 2. And is that which is in Commâ—â—ion with the See of Rome the secoÌ„d Booke 3. Not the â—ompany of Protestants the first Booke The Boâ—ke is so little it needeth not an Index in place of oâ—e take this direction God liâ— 2. cap. 4. Incarnation of the second Person Ibid His Church foretould lib. 2. cap. 1. Raised and prâ—pagated lib. 2. cap. 5. Visibile lib. 2. ca. 1. lib 3. ca. 1. 2. 6. Continued till now lib. 2. cap. 2. 3. Thâ— Holy Ghost assisting in it lib. 3. cap. 1. to all Truthe 2. fundamentall and not fundamentall c. 3. The written Doctrine lib. 4. cap. 5. The Vnwritten â—â—b 4. cap. 10. Particular points of her doctrine prâ—ued by text of Scripture lib. 1. cap. 6. Her Iâ—teriour Sanctitie lib. 3. cap. 5. Exteriour acte of diâ—ine worshippe lib. 4. cap. 9. TransubstaÌ„tiation in the Masse cap. 8. Flesh and blood reallie in the Saâ—rament cap. 6. and by Antiquitie so beleeued cap. 7. In the Church Priests and a chiefe Pastour lib. 1. cap. 6. S. Peeter aboue the rest of the Apostles and Pastor of the Church lib. 4. ca. 1. The Pope his Successor and aboue other Bishops cap. 2. President in generall Councells cap. 3. Councells lib. 2. cap. 3. 7. assisted in proposing lib. 3. c. 2. 3 4. lib 4 cap. 10. Who a Catholique lib. 2. c. 6. and lib. 3. cap. 4. Resolution of Faith Ibid. and. li. 3. cap. 4. 5. Answere to Obiections made against Vniuersalitie lib. 2. cap. 7. Sanctitie lib. 3. cap. 5. Visibilitie lib. 3. cap. 6. Succession and Vnitie lib. 2. ca. 7. lib. 3. cap. 4. Infallibilitie lib. 3. cap 5. 7. And against our Doctrine lib. 1. cap. 4. 5. and lib. 4. thoroughout The Protestants are not able to prooue their Religion by Scripture lib. 1. cap. 4. 5. 6. nor by Antiquity cap. 3. They should render account of Predecessors agreeing in all points with them lib. 3. c. 4. but cannot lib. 1. cap. 2. the Waldenses neither were Protestants nor had continuall Succession of their Church from the Apostles lib. 1. cap. 1. The yong Reader may omitte the â— 5. and 6. Chapters of the first Booke To him that hath ministred the occasion of this booke TO one of the two papers which you had from me long agoe you haue shaped as it seemeth a kind of answere yet not an answere neither for you send him that would haue one to looke it in other men that are in print For my part I was not willing at the sight of yours which I espied by meere chaunce and neuer sawe but once to be made an Aprill foole and therefore would not be so farre at your commaund Yet to declare that I was not satisfied Presumed the chiefe question out of which the rest are easilie resolued and disputed it more at large putting downe the conclusions together with their grounds and maintaining them against that which your self or your abettors haue obiected I endeuoured to do this briefly but it so fared with me in this intellectuall businesse as it doth with such as breede the child in the natiuitie is much bigger then at the conception the matter I speake of heere hath an inward inclination to dilate it self and whilst I was writing the discourse prooued a booke VVhere vppon being withall desirous to impart it to my frinds I determined to multiply my coppies by the print when I could spare money to discharge it As I was expecting that opportunitie another occasion arising out of the late persecution solicited me to let it without more delay come abroade and I haue yeelded thereunto though not without diffitcultie I will not addresse the thing particularly against you partly because I dispute also against others with whom I haue exchanged some papers as I did with you and am willing if it may be to be heard where they are partly because your discourse was not a direct answere to that I sent and a posting direction of half a sheete of paper had beene as much as in way of reply it could deserue from me or any other You had handled the matter so that indeede I doubed whether I were the man you meant by the name there put downe
on with your conceipt but wrong not other men The Aethiopians as blacke as they are doe loath and abhorre the communion of your Church and are the more vnwilling to heare of it Luther Respons ad Dialog Syluest Pri. Calu. in Antidot Conc. Tri. sess 6. c. 12. because she is not ashamed to professe that she cānot keepe the cōmaundementes with all the helpe she hath frō God allmightie and cōsequentlie that she cannot for beare blasphemie nor errour nor witchcraft nor adulterie nor murder nor robberie in fine that she cānot possiblie obserue that Minimum legis mandatū onus Aetna grauius Calu. Ibid. which equitie doth require and God commaund And for this among other reasons not Ethiopians onelie but all the rest of the world loathe her and wishe she were retired againe into her hole of inuisibilitie 12. As touching your māner of answearing I wish you to consider that you doe not satisfie our demaund nor euer will by naming such as agree not with vs in some one point or more White Illyricus vnles you prooue likewise that they doe agree with you and be of the religiō which in England you professe For example if you name a mā which denied the Popes primacie Ob. The Papists haue not a Succession of such as they are Answ. l. 2. c. 6. and l. 3. c. 4. as you doe if this man consent not with you in other thinges it is childish to thinke you satisfie our demaund by naming him he may be in other pointes of the same minde with vs or with Arians or with Nestoriās or with Eutichians or Mahometans or Iewes or Athiestes and therfore not a Protestant vnles you admit all kind of men into your communion and will haue the Protestant Church to be the congregation of them all And this too would not serue for the thing wee demaūd is a catalogue or successiō of mē whose religion is the same with yours and currant there in Englād In like mānner if you should name a man which agreed with you in one halfe of your positions and in the other halfe dissented this man were not yours yea lesse then halfe or a quatter or the tenth part is Ynough to diuide a man from communion and from vnitie in beleefe as you may see in S. Epiphanius S. Epiph. op Panar S. Aug. de Haeres tom 6. and S. Augustine That you may the better conceaue me suppose one of your fellowes is become an Arian I aske you whether he be of your religion and whether his religion be currant there in England or not if it be then Arianisme is there currāt though the Roman profession be abhorred if it be not thē a fewe yea one point is ynough to diuide you in religion from that man and him from you Now those men which you bring were each of them contrarie in many pointes as Waldo Berengarius Wickleffe and therefore diuided and distinct in religion frō you Neither will your distinction of points fundamentall and not fundamētall help you here both because those men did differ in your fundamentall ād most essentiall point of Protestancie that is in the matter of Iustification as also because errours in other pointes besides those which you call fundamentall are sufficient to make distinction in religion which is euident and by your selues cānot be denied for you saie that Papistes holde all fūdamētalls and yet their religion is not yours But of this I haue spoked alreadie and neede not repeate it I onelie adde now that a man by your principles may denie euery verse which is in the Bible and obstinatelie too excepting that onelie which is expressed in the three Creedes and Baptisme and the Supper and yet be of the same Church and communion with your selfe And what thinke you of your fellow that saieth further that Arian Churches are allso to be accompted the Churches of God because they hold the foundation of the Gospell If this hold Morton of the Kingd of Isr and the Church p. 94. what makes an heretique what communion doe you refuse what Church among Christians can be false If all the Bible but twelue propositions or there aboutes if the Incarnation if the Trinitie if the Christians God may be denied and the deniers be accompted the Church of God It restes that you saie now that the Turkes are also of the same Church and religion with your selues 13. A like obseruatiō to the former I would haue you to reflect on whē our mē demaūd White what Church wee went out of and what precedent Church did oppose it selfe to our religion and contradict it Wee doe not aske whether any man euer did oppose any part of our beleefe wee know there were such there were some which did oppose the deitie of our Sauiour some the Deitie of the holy Ghost some the real Presence some Images c. this wee know but the demaūd requires proofe of a Protestāt Church or any other if you be wearie of defēding your owne which being before ours did examine iudge and cōdemne our religion If your men will giue satisfaction to the questiō they must answeare this they must assigne a visible Church allwayes extant which did still condemne our religion whensoeuer wee appeared and being one in it selfe was still against vs at all tymes when wee were Your last answere is that the Church of God was all infected with erroures for many hundred yeares which errours were such notwithstanding saie you as destroied not her essence white And this conceipt you declare in the exāple of a leprouse mā For your Church I admit easilie that it is infected with errours The Church of God is not as you shall heare in the third booke where that matter shall be examined in the meane tyme I repeate the former argument and put it thus Either all Christians before Luther did erre in Matters of religiō Arg. or some onelie or none at all If none at all did erre Then why would you mend that which by your cōfession was not before amisse why trouble you the world to bringe in a newe religion without which you confesse it was well before If all of them did erre in matters of religion then your religion did not come downe to you from the Apostles by a succession continuall as you pretend your faith and religion was not alwayes in the world the Gospell was not sincearlie and incorruplie professed at all tymes I adde further if al did erre then you haue vndertaken a taske vnpossible in your owne iudgment in offering to maintaine a perpetuall existence or being of your religion and you quarrell with all that went before And where then was the all teaching spiritte did he mistake the true doctrine or did Christ breake his word If some onelie did erre and not all giue vs a Catalogue of some of thē who did not erre let vs heare their names the place of their aboade the profession they were
of the tyme they liued in produce a Catalogue a Continuall Catalogue of such mē as agreed in doctrine with you such as held the religion now currant in England who were they whence were they where were they hould vp your head man open your eies and looke the question in the face THE THIRD CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen to the demaund by recourse vnto Antiquitie 15. HAd your religion bene such that you could haue giuen accōpt and euidence of her continuall existence in the world there would yet remaine a greater taske behinde which were to prooue the generall communion it had with Nations and that it was and is Catholique in that respect that it did and doth consent with Antiquitie with the Apostles doctrine and with the Scripture for this must be prooued and exactly too before wee receaue it See the Protest Apol. and the Prud. Ballance and leaue that which hath bene generallie professed in England well neare a thousand yeares together and was all that space the knowne religiō of the Christiā world The true religion is such as I haue said and therfore if you will haue vs praie with you first showe that your Church is thus ample thus Catholique thus grounded and ours not for vntill you prooue this which will neuer be you may not hope that wee will come out of our Church into yours To proceed therfore I demaund euidence that your religion that I saie which in England is now currāt hath bene generallie in the cōmunion of the Christian world and I demaund such euidence as may commaund a wise mā to beleeue it Your answeare to this in effect is that in the first six hundred years it was so though you will not be tied to giue accōpt of it afterwardes By which euasion I doe gather that you apprehend the former argumēt as a ghost haunting and affrighting you seeing that for feare of meeting it againe you haue stepped ouer a thousand yeares together to take sanctuarie among the Fathers in their Church I was about to saie you were ill aduised to aduēture yourselfe thether where Iouiniās Nouatiās Donatistes and other your progenitors were cōdemned and accursed but cōsidering your case better I see that feare would not let you aduise at all but cast you no matter whether so it were farre ynough out of my waie 16. Now therfore I follow thether but first obserue how you dare not auouch and in effecte do deny that the religion you maintaine was openlie professed receaued publicklie for nine hundred yeares before Luther which is but could encouragement for men to come to or to staie with you who pretending to giue accompt of a continuall succession and euer visible Catholique Church doe come so short of the thinge expected that you can show none in all the world for nine hūdred yeares together and this which you haue said being wrested out of you vppon the racke ād much against your will because infinitelie preiudiciall to your cause I take for an effect of the former argument which you haue not ben able to answeare yet nor euer will be The like issue it hath oft had before for your writers ād best learned men hauing the space of a hundred yeares together bene vrged and importuned with this question haue laboriouslie searched all recordes turned ouer and ouer all authors examined all writinges with that industrie men are to suppose which a cause required wheruppon eternitie doth depende and yet after infinite inquisition cannot finde such a Church in former tyme as yours is and herevpon haue confessed that the Christian world was of our Religion before Luther not of yours imagining hereby a generall Apostasie frō the faith to haue ouerrunne the whole world Cal. praef Instit Hence Caluin in his Institutions saith that in the ages past there was no face of a true Church and that the true Religiō was drowned ād ouerthrowne for many ages Whittaker saith no religion but the papisticall had place in the Church Whittak cont Dur. p. 274. and wee knowe saith he as plainlie that the Church hath perisshed as thou knowest a man to be dead The Popes tyranny saith Luther hath extinguisshed the faith many ages Luth. Capt Babil c. de Bapt. Perk. Expos Creed p. 400. Simon Voyon Ep ad lect Hutter de sacrif mis p. 377. Before the dayes of Luther saith Perkins for the space of many hūdred yeares an vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the world When Boniface was installed saith an other the whole world was ouerwhelmed in the dregges of Antichristiā filthines with superstitiōs and traditiōs of the Pope another I graunt willinglie that the papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especiallie these last thousād yeares another Hospin Hist Sacram l. 2. p. 157. in the tyme of Gregorie the great all kinde of superstitiō ād Idolatrie hath as a sea ouerflowed all the Christian world no man resisting Another the Papisticall ād Antichristian Raigne began about the yeere 316. after Christ raigning vniuersallie ād without any debateable cōtradiction 1260. yeares Napp on the Reuel p. 68. the Pope and his clergie during all that tyme possessing the outward visible Church of the Christiās another For certaine through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church Seb. Franc. Ep de abrog stat Eccl. together with the faith and sacramēts vanished a way presentlie after the Apostles departure and for these 1400. yeares the Church hath bene no where externall and visible another the true Church decaied immediatelie after ther Apostles tyme. Fulk answer to Counterf Cath. p. 35. I haue a horrour to recite what the bouldnes of your men doth auouch further towching the Christian Church in common and her Apostasie from the faith cōtrarie to the sēse of all Antiquity and to the iudgment of the Christian world yea contrarie to the promises of Iesus Christ and to the couenant of allmightie God as hereafter I will shewe Meane while compare these textes vnto your doctrine of the Church In the later dayes shall be prepared the mountaine Isay 2. the house of our lord in the toppe of mountaines and it shall be raised aboue the litle hilles and all Nations shall flowe vnto it Thou shalt not be called any more forsaken and thy land shall not be any more called desolate Id. c. 62. but thou shalt be called my will in her and thy land inhabited because our lord hath taken complacence in thee and thy land shall be inhabited Id. c. 59. My spirit that is in thee and my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seede saith our lord from hence foorth and for euer 17. The Church in the Scripture is so ample that All nations flowe vnto it so established and so deare vnto Christ that she is no more forsaken but her lād euer
the most part were spotted with doctrines of freewill merits inuocation of Saincts c. Cal. Inst l. 3. c. 5. §. 10. Caluin It was a custome a thousand and three hundred yeares agoe to pray for the deade veteres omnes c. 4. §. 38. but all of that tyme I confesse were caried away into errour Those things which occurre here and there about satisfaction in the writings of those of ould tymes moue me little I see indeede some of them I will speake plainlie allmost all whose books are extant haue either slipt in this point or spoken to rigourouslie and to harshlie Whitt Cōt 2. q. 5. c. 7. Whittaker wee confesse that some Papisticall errours are auncient and are held and defended by the Fathers this wee do freelie and openlie professe It is true which Caluine Ibid. and the Centurists haue written that the Auncient Church did erre in many things as touching Limbus freewill merite of works c. Ex Patrum erroribus vester ille Pontificiae Religionis cento consutus est id l. 6. con Dur. s 7. Mart. de Vot col 1559. Dud. ap Bez. ep 1. Collat. R. Chal. l. 2. c. 22. The Popish Religion is patched out of the Fathers errours Peeter Martyr As longe as wee stand to the Councells and Fathers wee shall remaine allwayes in the same errours Duditius If that be the truth which the Fathers haue professed with mutuall consent it is alltogether on the Papists side Stay here is enough for my purpose if any man will haue more let him goe to the Conference of my L. of Chalcedon and reade it there 24. Before I make my argument I will note here an effect of this guiltie cōscience of Protestancie which effect is to decline the way of tryall by the Fathers to labour to persuade mē their iudgment is vnsecure Iew. Ap. part 4. p. 117. and in fine to cōtemne them Hence Iewell in his Apologie hath said that the way of finding the truth by God speaking in the Church and Councells is very vncertaine dangerous and and in a manner franticke Rainold in his conference would haue you beleeue that if the Fathers not onelie one or two but All Rainold Conf. c. ◠diu 1. held a point now questioned and not held it onelie but wrote it nor onelie wrote it but allso taught it not darklie but plainlie not seldome but commonlie not for a short season but cōtinuallie This consent of theirs if any such be foūd were vnsecure Thus bouldly he prepares himselfe to encoūter thē all this reckoning he makes of their Antiquitie their Sāctitie their Spirit their consent But will you see how Luther in his Cupps tramples on them Lut. Coll. mēsal c. de Pat Eccl. In the writings of Hierome there is not a word of true faith and sound Religion Of Chrysostome I make no accompt Basil is of no worth he is whollie a Monke I way him not of a haire Patrum authoritas susque de que faciēda est de ser arbit c. 2. fol. 433. Cyprian is a weake Deuine c. And in generall The authoritie of the Fathers is not to be cared for Let vs now to the last argument which I make thus 25. If the Fathers of the first six hundred yeares haue deliuered our doctrine and contradicted Arg. 3 yours so cleerly that your best Schollers and our greatest aduersaries in this quarrell of Religion haue though vnwillinglie yet by force of euidēce directlie cōfessed it then haue you not yet made it cleere that the Church in those tymes did beleeue as you doe and was of the Religion now currant amongst you But the Fathers of those tymes haue deliuered our doctrine and contradicted yours so cleerelie that your best Schollers being allso our greatest aduersaries haue directlie confest it as is declared particularlie and vnansweareablie in the Protestants Apologie in the points of the reall Presence Transubstantiation Sacrifice of the Masse Inuocation of Saincts Prot. Ap. tract 1. Sec. 3. prayer for the deade Sainct Peeters Primacie Confession Satisfaction Absolution from sinnes by the Priest Merit Iustification by good works Images Vowes Reliques Ceremonies vnwritten Traditions c. Therefore you haue not yet made it cleere that the auncient Church did beleeue as you doe ād was of the Religion now currant among you * Do not rūne away cowardly from this argument and busie your self heere in expoūding or obiectīg Fathers as your appealants impertinētly haue donne for this is but to daunce on a round as Mr. Brerely in his aduertisments tould Morton But consider attentiuely what is heere obiected and answere it directly thorough out point by point The thing vrged is the confession of your owne Deuines What do you say to this Confession I do not aske in this place how you do Glosse the Fathers or what is your opiniō No. But I demand what you say to the Confessiō of your fellowes ād how you do answere the argumēt heere drawne from the said Confession I sawe Mortōs Booke once and when I lookt next into the Prot. Apol. I found Mr. Brereleys discourse to be so full and so far to ouerreach Mortōs answere that it was argument and replie both in one and still will be So that indeed you are so farre frō hauing the better in that part of the question which your answeare doth suppose that your side is infinitely preiudiced and vnpossible that you should euer come to equall termes much more vnpossible is it that you should euer in the consistorie of Reason and Equitie gaine the cause Why then do you perswade vs to followe you before you make it cleere or credible to learned men that you goe right that you goe the same way which the primitiue Church did goe their Posterity which did immediatly follow them tell vs that they went our way not yours the same all Christian Churches euer since for nine hundred years do witnesse the same your owne doctors do confesse and why then must not wee follow there is no right way but one no faith true but one no Catholique Church but one And now I resume the reason often vrged heretofore which the further it goes the more strength it gettes and thus I argue That Religion which neuer had the communion of the Christian world is not Catholique or vniuersall but the Religion now currant in England neuer had the communion of the Christian world for since Luther it was neuer the Religiō of the Christian world nor in the tyme of the primitiue Church nor in the later nine hundred yeers therefore it is not Catholique THE FOVRTH CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by pretense of Scripture 26. THe last shift wherevnto in fine you betake your selfe is to leaue Antiquitie ād to be tryed by the word or Scripture onely And here too you are so nice that you will admit a part onely of Scripture and scarce knowe what your owne selues But of this hereafter
in blisse S. Th. Aq. in 4. d. 21. q. 1. a. 1. q. 1. ad 1. S. Thomas doth distinguish working in way of merite from suffering in way of purgation and graunts that such as are deade in our lord are in securitie of their saluation and therefore happie and do rest from the laboure of merit that labour is past they did many good works in their lyfe tyme and those follow them they neede no more Ob. Phil. 3. 12. Aus ibi v. 15. But some of them neede purging and therefore they may suffer and be punished The soule departing out of this world and going to the Tribunal of Gods iustice is attended by her works and according to them receaues her sentēce Wee must all be manifested before the iudgment seate of Christ that euery one may receaue the proper things of the body ◠Cor. 5.10 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Cor. 3 v. 13.14.15 The forme of the last iudgment you haue Mat 20. v. 31.32 c. consider the respect it hath there to VVorks Lut. 22.25 according as he hath donne either good or euil The worke of euery one shall be manifest for the day of our lord will declare because it shall be reuealed in Fire and the worke of euery one what kind it is the Fire shall try If any mās worke abide which he built there vppon on the foundation Christ he shall receaue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Reward If any mans worke burne he shall suffer Detriment but himselfe shall be saued yet so as by fire 38. The fourth The kings of the gentiles ouer rule them but you not so cited against our doctrine of the Primacie I Answ First the Primacie was not then instituted Io. 21.18 but afterwards and therefore if our Sauiour had said that none was first at that tyme it were not against vs. Secondly if you presse the words they will make for vs and against you they wil prooue one greater then the rest v 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that is the greater among you let him become as the yonger and he that is leader as the waiter Which precept doth suppose a greater and a leader among them Thirdlie the sense you make would take Bisshops allso from the Church for of them the Scripture saith likewise that they must not ouer rule the Clergie 1. Pet. 5.3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 20.28 and the word in Greeke is the same with that whereby S. Matth. doth expresse the ruling which you do vrge and yet you know that the holie Ghost hath placed Bysshops to rule the Church Fourthlie our Sauiour doth not say that among the Apostles none shall be Superiour but he saith onelie that it must not be so amonge them in matter of gouerment and subiection as it is amonge the heathen Princes and this wee graunt Those Princes ordinarily domineere imperiouslie and regard not so much the good of their subiects as their owne priuate ends This doth not consist with Christian discipline and is here forbidden Lastlie the Greeke text of S. Mathew doth take away all apparence of doubt in this point Mat. 20.25.26 the words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Princes of the Gentiles domineere ouer them and ouerrule them and they that are the greater exercise power against thē It shall not be so among you You know the power of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is here twise vsed turne your lexicon and reade there 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dominium exerceo aduersus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dominantur aduersus eos do beare rule against them put then all together ād you will be ashamed of your owne argument 39. The fift 1. Tim. 3 2◠brought for mariage of Priests It behoueth a Bysshop to be the husband of one wife Answ Is the meaning thinke you a Bysshop of necessitie must haue a wife or he that hath or hath had more then one is not fit to be made Bysshop If you will haue the first to be the sense you are contrarie not onely to the practise of our Church and of the Apostles but allso to your owne fellowes and are a Religion by your selfe If you thinke the second be the sense it makes nothing against vs S. Ierom. Chrysost Oecumen Theoph. wee make none Bisshops that are bigami that haue had more wiues then one such mē are not fit for so sacred an office There is indeed a controuersie betwixt vs and you Vide Cocc t. 2. l. 8. art 6. 7. Whether it be lawfull for a Priest or Bysshop to take a wife You affirme wee denie it And the Apostle doth not contradict vs he doth not say it is lawfull for a Bysshop to take a wife wich was to be showne in Scripture 1. Tim. 4.3 40. The sixt Some in the laste tymes shall come commanding or persuading to abstaine from meates which God created to receaue with thanks giuing Answ There were men to come that would forbid to eate meats esteeming them vncleane Epiphan haeres 66. Aug. haeres 46. and created or made by an ill cause such were the Manichees who did hold there were two prime causes one good the other bad both eternall both Gods And flesh they said the bad God created Aug. l. 30. con Faust c. 5. 6. The Apostle speaketh of these men as S. Augustine and others well obserue and it is manifest by the reason in the text whereby the Apostle doth impugne the foresaid men for saith he euery creature of God is good v. 4. Which proposition is euident in it selfe and opposite directlie to the ground of the foresaid Heretiques But this doth nothīg concerne vs who do abstaine some tymes by the example of our Sauiour and by the command of our Mother the Church Vide Coc◠tom 2. lib. 3. a. 8. 9. 10. not for that reason of the Manichees but for other good ends 41. The seuenth Rom. 1◠◠let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers for there is no power but from God Answ wee teach the same as you see by all our commentaries vppon this place But what your Master Caluin thinks of the busines the world knowes I referre you to the Preface of the Protestants Apologie to Monarchomachia c. 42. Apoc. 17.18 There is an other out of the Apocalyps to prooue the Pope Antichrist The wordes are the woman which thou sawest is the greate cittie which hath king done ouer the kings of the earth Answ The mysterie heere spoken of is so profound and darke that you can finde no bottom to build vppon But to endeuour vppon those Hills whereon the womā sittes be they mysticall v. 9. all one with the Heades and Kings or materiall to raise a Fort to batter the See of Sainct Peeter erected and established by Iesus Christ is Antichristian The Cittie some interprete mystically thinking it to be the confused multitude of the Wicked which is the Cittie
of the Deuil opposed to the Cittie of God or Societie of the Good Others think it to be Rome as it was in S. Iohns time when the Emperours there abiding did persecute the Church of Christ and as it will be about the end of the world Be it this or that or some other nothing is heere auouched against vs. It is not heere said that the Pope is that Woman or that he is the Beast on which the Woman sate or that he is one of the Heades of the Beast or that he is Antichrist No one of all these is heere affirmed why then do you alleage it what is this to the argument wherein I said the Scripture doth no where formallie contradict vs or how doth it iustifie your bragge that you haue Scripture in manifest places free from all ambiguitie on your side 43. And thus farre concerning the texts alleaged by Iohn White which he affirmed to be manifestlie and without ambiguitie for the Protestants where as not any one doth in termes contradict that which our Church doth teach which was the thinge he made his reader to expect But you will bid a man aske the Spirit for the sense of these places And to meet with you at this turning too so will I. You will direct him to the Spirit in your selfe in Iohn white I will direct him to the Spirit in the Church My direction and resolution is well grounded as I will declare here after Yours is not And if by this litle which hath bene said here in this Chapter a man would make a guesse at your Spirit he should quicklie find his nature First he contradicts the Spirit of the Fathers who held Purgatory merit c. SecoÌ„dlie he coÌ„tradicts the Spirit of the Catholike Church which he doth oppose in these things Thirdly he contradicts the Spirit of S. Iohn the Apostle and imputes vnto him a deliberate act of superstitious Idolatrie so you call adoring aÌ„gells together with grosse stupiditie that being tould once and that by an Angell too he would not forbeare but doe it againe But of this I shall speake againe in an other place that which for the present I conclude here is that the Scripture doth not condemne vs in plaine words You haue done all you can to shew it and cannot yet finde one place for this purpose You see allso by the way what I thinke of your consequences though that was not my scope in this discourse as I declared in the begining of the former Chapter THE SIXT CHAPTER That is vnpossible for Protestants to winne the cause by Scripture 44. HEretiques all generallie affect obscuritie they drawe their opponent as much as euer they can into the darke that he may not see there what they doe or their confusion be concealed from the people and so their credit saued I expected cleere places I looked for a coÌ„bate in the light you should haue shewne in plaine words in the Scripture there is no Purgatory Christ is not in the Sacrament reallie Priests and Bysshops may take wiues to worship Angells is Idolatrie These and the rest of your propositions you should haue showne there if you would haue woÌ„ne that way and haue done that which you pretended But you haue not done it you haue cited some places which haue it not in the words and in regard they are obscure to you or to the ignorant you suspect or guesse and preteÌ„d the sense which you would haue may lie secret in the words though you cannot shewe it there and wee knowe it is not there at all Wee haue light enough to see that the Scripture in those places doth not as much as obscurely speake against vs wee haue prayer aÌ„d industry wee haue the Fathers helpe wee haue innumerable eies regardiÌ„g the doctrine of the Church and the Scripture and coÌ„paring them together In a word the assisting Spirit with all his guifâ—s is in our Church 45. Now to shewe further how vnpossible a taske it is for you to declare and make it euident out of Scripture that yours is the true Religion and ours not I will turne the argument which I did vse in the begining of the former Chapter into an other forme aÌ„d make it thus If the scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours Arg. it is vnpossible for you to make it euident by the Scripture that your Religion is true and ours false But the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours and this I will shewe running thorough the points wherein our maine difference doth consist which are the Infallibility of the Church in deliuering Scripture aÌ„d Gods word generallie Traditions reall Presence OblatioÌ„ of Christs body aÌ„d blood in the formes of bread aÌ„d wine for the remissioÌ„ of Sinnes which is the vnbloodie Sacrifice The Primacie of S Peeter and his Pastorall office Absolution from sinnes by Priests Indulgences Iustice before God and intrinsecall in meÌ„ or inherent Iustification by works and Reward of them keeping the Commandements Freewill in works of grace Vowes and workes of Counsell not of command Single life prayer for the dead Intercession of Sainctes and Angells and finallie Worship of some things inanimate or sensles in regard of the reference they haue to things truely capable of honour more then ciuile In these generall heads the rest are included and these you name allwayes and stand most vppon them I am now by my promise to bringe their grounds out of Sripture wherein I will be as briefe as I can and will begin with the neerest which is the last aÌ„d so backwards till I meete the first againe Before I begine the taske two thinges are to be noted The first is that I am not in this Chapter to coÌ„tend about the sense and meaning if you pretend it is not that which the words offer immediately but that my taske is donne if I bringe places of scripture which affirme formally if the words be taken in their proper sense that which wee doe A further Iudgment or determination of the meaning and sense of the words I bringe is to be taken from the testimonie of the Spirit The Spirit I say is to be iudge of the sense and meaning not the spirit of externes or in them but the spirit in Gods Church And this Iudgment is euidently on our side as I will prooue in the third booke Here I am not to meddle with it but only to finde our doctrine in the same or equiualent words and to put it here downe This you must beare in minde likewise for the argumeÌ„t which in the third Chapter I made out of the Fathers It suffised there against you to cite our doctrine out of their mouthes Of their meaning the Spirit must be Iudge And not the Spirit in externes but the Spirit in the Church The second is that since to descend vnto particulars and to inquire each ones opinion in matter of Religion among ProtestaÌ„ts is endles and of infinite regard 3. Book
q. 5. c. 17. The Scripture Isay 59 2â— My words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy Mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer The same place your brother Puritan doth allso contradict in denying a perpetuall visible Church Wee beleeue that the Church is assisted by the holy Ghost to all truth You say No And so do all Hereticks Our Sauiour in the Scripture Io. 14.16 16. v. 13 I will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of Truth he shall teach you all truth 55. Thus I am come in fine to the first againe which doth confirme all the rest RemeÌ„ber what I said in the begining of this Chapter in so much that what I haue here shewed in the last place out of Scripture doth prooue that the Church doctrine deliuered by word of Mouth is all true whether it be written downe in the Bible or be not for these places of Tradition by word the word of God euer in the mouth of the Church and the Spirit suggesting and teaching all truth are not limitted in the Scripture to writing as in the text you see And therefore now I repeate my argument made in the begining of this Chapter If the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine points wherein wee differ Arg. it is euidentlie vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your Religion not of ours or that yours is true ours false But the Scripture doth auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine pointes wherein we differâ— as I haue showne Therefore it is euidently vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your religion not of â—urs or that yours is true ours false 56. Now since your doctrine is thus contrary to Gods word and consequentlie your spirit being rubde vppoÌ„ this tuchstone being found to be counterfait it were not amisse to looke about from whence you had your doctrine and whence your Spirit came Which thing I could finde out without much adoe and would set downe here but that I haue allreadie bene to longe I will therefore onely \ shewe you the way to finde it and so conclude Looke out the place where Gods commandements are neuer kept but esteemed vnpossible where all actions are sinnes and sinnes neuer remitted or wiped cleane away where there is no Indulgence or remissioÌ„ of any paine due to sinne no works of supererogatioÌ„ acknowledged no state of perfectioÌ„ no Merit of works no Libertie to doe well no prayer for the deade no Communion with saincts in heauen nor prayers made vnto them where Priestlie function is abhorred holy Sacrifice blasphemed and the very Images of Christ and his Saincts loathed and detested Where there is no Iustice inherent no constant rectitude or infallibility of iudgment no coÌ„tinual Visibilitie of sacred Profession no Vnitie in Religion but a confused admittance of all that are against the Catholique of Wicklefists and Hussites Luther doth confesse it in his Booke de missa pri tom 7. fol. 228. VVittemb a. 1558. See Luthers life by Mr Brereley câ— 1. â— 2. and Arians and Athiests aÌ„d all people that will obstinatly refuse confession of their Sinnes works of pietie and the common Creede and make theÌ„selues their owne wittes the Iudge of all looke out this place aÌ„d the rest you will finde there I haue heard and reade and doe beleeue that the spirit which instructed Luther your Master came from thence The Conclusion THe protestants are not able to giue satisfactioÌ„ in the Question of the Church whereby as allso by their Opposition to the Scripture and Antiquitie it is manifest that theirs is not the true Religion which or where else soeuer the true Religion be THE SECOND BOOKE WHEREIN IS DECLARED which is the true Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Shewing by authoritie of holy scripture that the true Christian Church is Catholike for tyme and place 1. SINCE your Church cannot be prooued to be Catholicke or vniuersall in regard of a generall communion which the world and perpetuall visibilitie you pretend there is no necessitie of any such latitude of place or tyme and would perswade vs that it is Catholique for doctrine because it holds the three Creeds with Baptisme aÌ„d the Supper and is not tied to one tyme or Nation but such as may be in any which you call negatiue vniuersalitie for tyme and place and for doctrine positiue Thou seemest to speake acutelie said S. Augustine to Vincentius a man of the Rogation Heresie and your Master in the way of defending your Religion as it seemes when thou doest interprete the name Catholique S. Aug. ep 48 by the obseruation of all diuine Precepts and all Sacraments and not of the communion of the whole world c. but indeed the thing which thou doest indeuour to persuade vs is that onelie Rogatians haue remained who are rightlie to be called Catholiques by the obseruation of all the diuine lawes and all Sacraments and that you onelie are the men in whom the sonne of man may finde faith when he comes Pardon vs wee beleeue it not And afterwards in the same Epistle you are with vs in baptisme in the Creede in the rest of our lords Sacraments In the spirit of Vnitie and in the band of peace and finallie in the Catholique church you are not with vs. As that Rogatian so you in your interpretation would seeme acute but vnto such onelie as neither knowe Scripture nor the state of the Question It is true that the doctrine of the true Church is perfect and the Obiect of her faith entire in it selfe but in your books and beleefe it is mangled and diuided so that part onelie is there allowed as hereafter shall appeare The Question is not here about that but about the Church that is about a certaine congregation of men and about the Vniuersalitie of such a Congregation not negatiue as you would haue it but positiue of tyme and place And because you admit not a positiue vniuersalitie that is a being of the Church in all Nations and in all tymes I will demonstrate vnto you by Scripture the Vniuersalitie of the true Church which soeuer it be whether the Roman or any other of which further point I will not dispute in this Chapter And allthough the scripture be full of testimonies for this vniuersalitie I will alleadge a fewe onelie aÌ„d those in order out of Moyses the Psalmes Prophets and Gospell which being well looked into will suffice 2. But first lest you rhinke you are to open your eies to looke on a Church and it inuisible by reason that in the Creede wee beleeue the Church
hunted after in the former booke but could not get tidings of in all the world before Luther I in the meane tyme will on further to looke out this Church of God But first I would haue you to note that as in the naturall bodie there are many superfluous materiall parts of flesh fatte and some other eauen in the hands eares and eies as you see in men that are grosse which parts though they be coherent now are not resumed all in the resurrection because they would extēd and increase the bodie vnto more then the iust bignes of the man and beyond the originall proportion of the soule So in this mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ are many parts which will not rise with it vnto glorie and therfore are multiplied aboue the number which is written in the booke of life yet being called as many are called fewe chosen for a tyme they doe beleeue but they fall againe before they die Another thing you may note if you please that as the naturall bodie receauing the sowle when the principall parts are prepared doth growe and flourish and afterwards looseth againe the exteriour beautie in ould age So the Church receaued the Spirit when by the instruction of the sonne of God the chiefe parts the Apostles were prepared and then did extend it selfe in bignes and flourished but in her ould age in the daies of Antichrist she will loose her exteriour beautie and maiestie and be greeuouslie afflicted and persecuted for a * The Church in the tyme of her extreame persecution will be visible for persecution it selfe is an euident argument of visibility as in England you see At the same tyme she will be allso Catholique and spred ouer the earth as S. Iohn telleth in the twentith Chapter of his reuelation where of the persecutors he saith they ascended vpon the breadth of the earth and compassed the campe of the saincts and the beloued cittie Vpon which words cleere enough in themselues S. Augustine in his bookes De cluitate Dei writeth thus They are not said to come into one place as though the campe of the Saincts or the beloued Cittie should be in some one place since this indeed is nothing but the Church of Christ spred ouer the whole world And therefore wheresoeuer this Church shall be then which shall be in all Nations for so much is insinuated by the latitude of the earth there shall be Gods beloued Cittie there shall she be beseiged by all her enimies for they allso shall be in all Nations with her So he li. 20. c. 11. Moreouer that extreme persecution of Antichrist shall be very short as enduring some three yeeres and a halfe which the Scripture allso hath declared He Antichrist shall thinke that he can change tymes and lawes and they shall be deliuered into his hāds euē to a tyme tymes ād halfe a tyme. Dan 7.25 Power was giuen to it the Beast to worke two ād fortie monethes Ap. 13.5 They shall tread vnder foote the holy Cittie two and fortie monthes Ap. 11.2 From the tyme when the Continuall Sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination shall be set vp 1290. Dayes Dan. 12.11 See allso Ap. 12. v. 6. 14. tyme as S. Iohn doth foretell But now to finde this Church THE SECOND CHAPTER The Catholique Church assigned 11. HAuing seene the picture of the Catholique Church as in Scripture it hath beene drawne by God himselfe it is not hard for him that will cast an eie vpon the world and compare this picture with the communities he finds there to discouer among all Churches and congregations which is the Catholique or to learne it if he will but aske the question of any man For all S. Aug. de vera relig c 7. and euen Heretiques ād Schismatiques as S. Augustine longe agoe did obserue when they talke not with those of their owne sect but with others do whether they will or no call no other Catholique but the Catholicke because they cannot otherwise be vnderstood vnles they designe her by that name which the whole world calles her by Men generally being demaunded which are Catholiques point at vs and being asked which Church is the Catholique do direct vnto that which is in cōmunion with the Roman See This was knowne to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Paul this was acknowledged to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Augugustine and S. Gregory and euer since and is now Aske all Christians such only excepted as your selues condemne for heretiques and they will tell you so Aske Iewes and Pagans and they will tell you this is the Church of Iesus Christ aske your fellowes White Cowell and such others and they will send you to this 12. If a man should haue come to Luther when he did looke round about for companie and found none of his opinion and should haue said vnto him Sir Luther in the Bible there is an ample description of a perperuall Catholique Church I pray you which is it that I may be Christian in communion of that Church Your Doctor for his hart could haue directed to no other then to that Congregation which then was in communion with the Bysshop of Rome For to you he could not haue directed him because poore men you were not in the world as yet with your Religion nor euer deserued the name of Catholique as in the former booke to your confusion hath beene seene To haue said that he a sole man was the Catholique Church which the Scripture speakes of had bene to multiplie himselfe ouer the world into many Nations and into millions of men at once To the Iewes or Pagans he could with no face haue sent him and had he done so they would haue giuen him the lie It rests therefore that Luther and so Caluin so Iewell must haue directed him to vs and haue tould him the Catholique Church is that which hath and still had communion with the Roman See 13. I knowe some of your fellowes would send a man to the Grecians and some further to the Aethiopians but these are not Protestants as the Grecians declare them selues and by the Aethiopians doctrine he may see that is not blind Neither hath the Grecian beleefe in those things wherein they differ from the Church of Rome euer bene in the generall communion of the Christian world and therefore Grecisme is not nor euer was Catholique and the same it is of Aethiopians and all others Another shift you haue and this is to say the Catholique Church is inuisible among the Romans the Grecians Aethiopians Germans and others but lies hid This would trouble the man surely for how should he be instructed by her and imbrace her communion vnles he could find her and how should he finde her if she did not appeare but were inuisible moreouer he would say that the Church which the Scripture hath described is there also declared to be perpetually visible with gates euer open the
Pastors alwayes exercising their holy function and Gods word in their mouth euer for this Church he doth inquire shewe him this Church and he will trouble you no longer for the rest he shall haue there A third shift is to send him to the primitiue Church and to tell him that indeede then was this communion with all Nations this ample Church which the Scripture doth commend was then but since it decaied and now you are building it againe This iourney were to longe for him he is not able to reade bookes otherwise he would not trouble you nor your Congregation at all for he should easilie find the thing himselfe wherefore that he may be directed by the iudgment of other men better seene in that busines he desires to know which aÌ„d where is the preseÌ„t Catholique Church and by that Church he will be directed about former tymes he desires therefore D. Luther to tell him where the Catholique Church is now for such a perpetuall one the Bible speakes of This question must be answered the man that doth aske it may be any that is in England for example and it might haue bene answered in Lurhers time who was your Master for which reason I tie the question to that tyme for the more perspicuitie and leaue the man with you to answer for your Master 14. Your fellowes finding here no way to flie the question do confesse that the knowne Church of the world in Luthers tyme that which had communion with the Pope was the Catholique Church and labour to finde her in errour and Apostasie So White Field and other of your companions so Luther so Caluin Of errours I will speake hereafter I looke now for the Church only because this is to be found first before we dispute of further matters And thus I vrge That Church which all the world doth say is the catholique church wee likewise Arg. 1 if wee will not be ridiculouslie sensles must beleeue to be the Catholique church as wee must beleeue that is Rome which the world VVee professe the Church of Rome it selfe in all ages to haue ben the visibâ—e Church of God So white Defence c. 41. in the name of his fellowes wee most firmely beleeue all the Churches in the VVorld wherein our Fathers liued and died to haue ben the true Churches of God in which vndoubtedly saluation was to be found Field Church l. 3. c 8 and c. 47. Wee neuer doubted but that the Churches wherein those holy men S. Bernard S. Dominick c. did liue and die were the true Churches of God and held the sauing profession of heauenly truth See him allso in the sixt Chap. of the same Booke Wee confesse that all Christian good is in the Papacie and that from thence it came downe to vs. Luth. Epist cont Anabapt ibid. I say further that in the Papacie is the true Christianitie yea the true kernell of Christianity and vppon the 28. of Genes Wee Confesse the Church to be among the Papists for they haue Baptisme Absolution the text of the Gospell and there are many godly among them Wee deny not that the Churches remaine vnder the Popes tyraenny but they are such as with sacrilegious impietie he hath profaned c. Caluin 4. Inst c. 3. and vppon 2 Thessall 2. he confesseth the Church coÌ„municating with the Pope to be Temple and Sanctuary of God sayth is Rome and that London which the world sayth is London But the whole world sayth that the company of Christians in communion with the See of Rome is the catholique church for so your fellowes so your Masters so wee so Iewes so Pagans and no other can be found wherefore since Gods word and promise of a perpetuall and vniuersall Church must needs be true wee must beleeue that it is this 15. Moreouer the Religion which you call Papistrie is now spred ouer the face of the earth in allmost all Nations and was confessedly the generall Religion of the christian world before Luther for many hundred Arg. 2 yeares together wherefore this Religion is catholique aÌ„d this companie the catholique church of God You answere first that the GreciaÌ„s agreed not with vs. But this makes not for Protestancie And moerouer in your sense it is false for though they haue not beene coÌ„tinuallie in our communion all this tyme yet in this time they haue beene in our communion And so haue the ArmeniaÌ„s aÌ„d others too which is all that I haue said and sufficient for to demonstrate that our communioÌ„ hath beene catholique in the tyme I haue spokeÌ„ of And if you will pleade for theÌ„ that allso their Schisme hath bene somtymes thus catholique I answere as before that Grecisme was neuer generally the faith of Christendome nor any other faith whatsoeuer but that only which wee professe not the Grecian I say not the Aethiopian not the Armenian not the Berengarian the Waldesian the Lutheran the Caluinian none at all and herein the Histories of all Countries and the memories of all Nations beare me witnesse Secondly you say that Mahomet hath seduced a great part of the world and so restrayned the latitude which wee pretend Whereunto I answere first notwithstanding Mahomete and his coÌ„panie that the communion of the christian world hath beene with vs and with no other which is all I desire I answere secondly that our communitie hath gained more in the meane tyme then euer the PagaÌ„ tooke away by an infinite increase both in this old and allso in the newe world Witnesse all those Nations in Europe which haue beene conuerted since that Impostor came besides the dailie and admirable increase in India Iaponia Brasile China and other places You answere thirdlie that all thosâ— worlds of people haue beene in errour But this is impertinent for here I looke only for the church that wee may finde it and when we haue found it we will inquire then whether it hath erred or no. And that this is the Catholique Church is euident because no other is or hath beene in the generall communion of Nations but only this nor euer any for the latitude of communion equall to it 16. I goe now futther and prescribe against you for our church and Religion thus That Arg. 3 Faith which in the Christian world hath beene generally beleeued to be diuine Quod vniuersa tenet Ecclesia nec Concilijs institutum sed semper retentum est non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur S. Aug. l 4. de Bapt. c. 24. and looking vpwards towardes the Apostles tyme no other origen of it can be found is verilie to be beleeued to be such But such is the faith of this coÌ„munitie for it hath beene the generall beleefe of the Christian World as I haue shewed and that no other origen of it can be found I prooue cleerly because whensoeuer you or any other begin later we shewe easilie that it was before And this because you persist without ground in your
Catholique reader to turne his eie aside a while till they be past I will begin before Luther when our Church generally was acknowledged for true by the ChristiaÌ„ world aÌ„d her doctrine beleeued aÌ„d will goe vpward to see Whether the Confession of your men for the generall acknowledgment of our Church and doctrine by the Christian world will reach to S. Gregories time or no From thence to proceede afterwards to the Apostles with the vniuersality of the same Church and doctrine will be easie First therefore by your learned men it is confessed that Papistrie to vse Arg. 5 your word was the generall Religion of the Christian world before Luther came In so much that a Tota Occidentalis Ecclesia defendit quicquid impietatuÌ„ detestamur Caluin Resp ad Versip p. 354. Caluin affirmes all the Westerne Churches to haue defended it and b. Discessionem à toto mundo facere coacti sumus Id. Ep. 141. that his separatioÌ„ was froÌ„ all the world c. white Defence c. 37. p. 136. The Papacie or articles wherein wee refuse the Church of Rome are a leprosie c. White saith it was a leprosie breeding in the Church so vniuersally that there was no visible company of people appearing in the world free from it d. Benedict Morgestein tract de Eccl. p. 145 and he saith there further that it is ridiculous to thinke that in the tyme before Luther any had the purity of doctrine and that Luther should receaue it from them Morgestern The whole Christian world knowes that before Luther all Churches were ouer whelmed with more then Cymerian darknes e. Bancroft Censure c. 4. BaÌ„croft The Priests and all the people too were drowned in the filth of Poperie from top to toe f. Iewell serm on the 11. c. Luk. Iewell The whole world people Priests and Princes were ouer whelmed with ignorance All Schooles Priests Bysshops and Princes of the world were by oath obliged to the Pope g. Daniel Camierus ep 49. Camierê° Errour possessed not one litle part or other but Apostasie auerted the whole Body from Christ h. Brocard in c. 2. Apoc. fol. 41. cognitio Christi defuit in omnibus singulis suis membris VVhit Cont. 4. q 5. c. 3. p. 684. Brocard When the preaching of the Gospell and the first assault made vppon the Papacie was approued in Luther the knowledge of Christ was wanting in all and euery one of his members i Whittaker In tymes past no Religion but the Papisticall had place in the Churches And. k. Id. Cont. 2. q. 3. p. 467. per omnes visibiles Ecclesias grassata est That Antichristian plague hath gone thorough all partes of the world and all visible Churches Thus in generall To runne thorough the particulars were infinite They say l. Luther serm de simulacr fol 277. Altero abusu imaginum totus orbis oppletus est The whole world was filled with the abuse of images That m Calu 2. Instit c 2. §. 4. Ad vulgus etiam ipsum omnes hoc principio imbuti sunt praeditum esse hominem libero arbitrio All to the very common people were imbued with this principle that maÌ„ hath free will that n Confess Aug. c. 20. Fateri omnes necesse est de fidei iustitia fuisse altissimum silentiuÌ„ Magburg praefat Cenur 13. extincta est doctrina de fide tantùm sine operibus Calu. Resp ad Sadolet p. 125. Dogma istud de iustificatione per solam fidem quod in religione summum erat dicimus fuisse à vobis ex hominum memoria deletum the principall point of Religion iustification by faith only was blotted out of memory that o. Bucerus li dâ— concord p. 660. Hic error de reali praesentia loquitur apud totius orbis Christianos inualuit the errour so they speake of the reall presence preuailed amonge all the Christians of the world that p. Gualt in praefat Com. in ep ad Rom All the world erred in that article of the reall presence that q. Calu. 4. Instit c. 18. §. 18. Missae abominatio in calice aureo propinata omnes Reges terrae populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt proram puppim suae salutis in hac vna statuerint the Masse made drunke all the kinges and people of the earth from the first to the last that r. Luth. Captiuit Babil fol. 68. scarce any thing was more beleeued then that the Masse was a Sacrifice that Å¿ Calu. Respons ad Sadolet p. 130 all endeuoured to merit to satisfie c. And to summe all vp in a word they confesse our Religion to haue preuailed ouer their supposed Church and Religion so farre t. Luth. Capt. Babil fol. 77. Id. in Psalm grad fol. 568 in 2. Gal. fol. 306. that the Protestant faith was abolished and extinguished That u. Magburg praefat Centur. 5. w Calu. 4. Instit c. 2. §. 2. Sub Papismo doctrina citra quam Christianismus non constat tota sepulâ—a explosa vnder the Papacie there was an extreme abolishing of the true Protestant Religion and the diuine word that vnder the Papacie the DOCTRINE without which ProtestaÌ„t Christianitie doth not subsist was ALL reiected aÌ„d buried This was the state of our Church before Luther and not for a small tyme but for nine hundred yeare yeauen from the tyme of Boniface and Gregorie the Great All the knowne Churches in the world all that tyme frequenting and beleeuing Masse confessing to Priests praying to Saincts and for the deade beleeuing iustification by workes doÌ„ne in grace aÌ„d the merit of theÌ„ satisfaction traditions religious vowes c. and the communion of the Pope was with the Christian world generally all that tyme. This you might knowe particularly froÌ„ tyme to tyme out of Ecclesiasticall Histories if you would reade theÌ„ but of histories I am not to speake now let vs goe on with the confessioÌ„ of your men for the generall acknowledgment of our ReligioÌ„ and the generall pouerty or not existencie of your supposed Church Speake Perkins During the space of nine hundred yeeres the Popish heresie hath spred it selfe ouer the whole earth Bale From Phocas who liued a. 602. till the renuing of the Gospell the doctrine of Christ was for that space amonge Idiotes and in lurking holes and after Gregorie the purity of Protestant doctrine perisshed d. Powell Confid Pap. reas p. 105. Powell I graunt that from the yeere of Christ 605. the professant company of Poperie hath bene very visible and conspicuous e. Fulke Ans Countâ— Cath. p 36. Fulke The Religion of the Papists came in and preuailed in the yeare of our lord 607. aÌ„d so vniuersally that the reuelation of Antichrist with the Churches flight into the wildernes was a. 607. f. Hutter de sacrif Missat p 377. Libenter concedo Idolomaniam pontificiam cuius
verum est Sacrificium Missaticum torum penè terrarum orbem inuasisse praesertim superiore proximo millenaâ—io Hutter I graunt willingly that the Papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especially these last thousand yeares g. Simon Voyon Catal. Doct. in ep to the reader Simon Voyon when Boniface was stalled in the Papall throne the whole world was ouer whelmed in the dregges of Antichristian filthines with superstitions and Traditions of the Pope Then was that vniuersall Apostasie from the faith foretould by Paul h. Bibliander orat ad Princip Germ. c. 72. apud Caluinoturc l. 1. c. 4. A morte Gregorij magni ponimus esse per se notum clarissimum extta omnem dubitationem quod Papa Romanus sit Antichristus qui suis abominationibus blaspheâ—iis Idololatriis omnes regesterrae populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt brutis ipsis essent stupidiores Bibliander It is of it selfe knowne most cleere and out of all question that from the death of Gregorie the greate the Pope of Rome is Antichrist who with his abominations blasphemies and idolatries so made drunke all kings and people from the highest to the lowest that they were more stupid then very beasts i. Hospinian Hist Sacram. l. 2 p. 157. Gregorij magni aetate omne superstitionis idololatriae genus c. Hospinian In the age of Gregory the greate all kinde of superstition and Idolatrie hath as a Sea ouerflowed allmost all the Christian world not only none resisting but rather all helping and adding thereunto what force they could Thus I haue by Protestants assigned to me the space wherein Papistrie hath ben generall and the supposed Protestancie supprest I meane from Luther vpwards to Boniface and to the death of Gregory the great 20. Now that the Religion generall in the world then was the same with that which was generall in the world in the tyme of Gregorie the greate who died but three yearet before Boniface is manifest by the testimonie of a world of eie witnesses that is by the testimonie of all kingdomes Nations Schollers Pastors People by the testimonie I say of all ChristiaÌ„ Churches which being in the time of Boniface and of our Religion as you heard your Deuines confesse had most of them seene the exercise of the Religion in all the world in S. Gregories tyme and could not be deceaued in the fact subiect to the eie euery where as going to Masse praying to a. Perkins expos Creede pag. 266. b. Bale Centur. 1.74 Id. p. 65. saints coÌ„fessioÌ„ to Priests adoratioÌ„ of the Blessed sacrament c. They had allso all meanes that meÌ„ could haue to be informed certainly of the Religion of the world in S. Gregories tyme Books Records Relations eies to see the practise immediatly eares to heare what they said Instruction Baptisme Bible Orders all they had from them immediatly and the matter touched theÌ„ all and each in particular more then lands life or whatsoeuer else can be deare to man I might confirme this further out of Gods assistaÌ„ce to the Church out of which it commeth ineuitablie that neither the former Religion could abruptly stop as you imagine and the faith faile the Church fall on the suddaine the Church I say diffused thorough the world nor all knowne ChristiaÌ„ Churches in succeeding tyme or the whole Christian world generally erre in a matter of the greatest moment in the discerning the true Religion and the true Church of former tymes Leauing you therefore to deale with babes whom you may peraduenture make beleeue on your bare word without euideÌ„ce against histories against the promise of almighty God aÌ„d against the testimony of all the Church of that tyme that whilst all were a sleepe it seemes by your dreame the Religion of the world was generally changed in Boniface his tyme after the death of Gregorie I take vpon the testimonie of a world of people vpon the Testimonie of all Nations then Christian that it was not but that the Religion then currant was the Religion currant in the tyme of Gregorie the greate 22. Now that S. Gregorie had communion with all the world euery one knowes by his Epistiles to the Bisshops of Corinth Siracusa Extant inter Op. D Greg. Constantinople Alexandria Carthage Numidia Ierusalem Arabia Antioche Arles Vienna c. You graunt also that he did communicate with the former ages and was of the same Religion with them which is allso cleere by the consent and iudgment of the Christian world in his tyme who beleeued that he and they were of the same Religion with the Church of the precedent age and had best meanes to know it The same Church and Religion in the tyme of Leo the greate was also vniuersall and this likewise out of his writings may be prooued The vniuersalitie I say of Leo his communion is knowne cleerly by his Epistles to the Bisshops of Italie Ie op v. Ie France Thessalonica Vienna Sicilie Campania Tuscia Alexandria Antioch Constantinople Ierusalem c. in a word it is included and to the world made knowne by the Councell of Chalcedon If you will ascend hiegher with this vniuersalitie goe vp to Syluesters tyme and his communion with all the Christian world you haue in the first Nicene Councell and Further I thinke you will not presse me though I could further name S. Paul witnessing of the Roman faith that it was renowned in the whole world 22. Hauing bene loÌ„ge in the former argumeÌ„t and the longer because I would see whether you could make the like in all respects for the vniuersalitie of your Church and doctrine Arg. 6 there curraÌ„t amoÌ„ge you I will now be shorter in the next which I will frame out of the CoÌ„fession of Protestants too not so much for their authoritie which I esteeme not as to stop your mouth and it shall be this Bright-maÌ„ in his Apocalyps saith that the Church Protestant was hidden from the tyme of Constantine to wit 1260. yeeres that then the supposed Protestancie went into the desert Bright in cap. 11. â—2 Apoc. Id. p. 577. Broc on Reuel fol. 110 12â— Nap. Reuel p. 68. See also p. 191. and that euer since Antichrist so he calls the Pope hath raigned Brocard saith also the church supposed ProtestaÌ„t was trodden downe and oppressed by the Papacie euen froÌ„ Syluesters tyme to those tymes viz. 1260. yeeres aÌ„d Napper saith Betwene the yeare of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian and Papisticall raigne began raigning vniuersally and without any debateable coÌ„tradiction 1260 yeeres the Pope and his clergie possessing the outward visible Church of Christians all that tyme. And for the supposed Protestant Church and doctrine he saith Gods true Church most certainely abode so longe latent Ours therefore by the confession of these Protestants was vniuersall longe before the tyme of Gregorie the greate I knowe that you obiect the Primacie to
haue bene confirmed to Bonifacius by Phocas But this will not hinder my argument for it is one thinge to declare and second an other thing to institute the institution of the Primacie you haue in the Gospell Ma◠〈…〉 18. Io. 21.18 S. Hierom. ep ad Dam Theod. ep ad Renat Presb Sand. Visib Mon. l. 7. Touching the existēcie of our Religion in the tyme of Constantine See more in the Protestant Apol tract 2 c. ◠Sect. 3. the acknowledgment you haue in Antiquitie as I will declare hereafter and the exercise before the tyme of Boniface is well knowne On this Rocke will I build my Church said our Sauiour who commended his flocke peculiarly to S. Peeter I quoth S. Ierom to Damasus then Pope Following none formost but Christ doe communicate with thy Holines that is with the chaire of Peeter Vppon that Rocke I knowe the Church was built And Theodoret a Grecian speaking of that See That holy Seate hath the gouerment of all the Churches in the world You heard before what S. Leo said of it and you knowe how he did exercise this power Only because your fellowes are wōt to obiect a speach of S. Cregorie not content to take the interpretation of it from his owne mouth I put you heare in mind that he did exercise this power ouer all the Christian Churches in his tyme and this you haue noted by D. Sanders in his Monarchie Sand. Visib Mon. l. 7. and not answered yet He shewes there I say out of S. Gregories owne writings how he did exercise the foresaid power ouer the Bysshops and Churches of Italie Sicilie Corsica Sardinia Africke Spaine Ireland England France Dalmatia Greece Corcyra and that the Patriarcks haue confessed Subiection to the Church of Rome Lastly wee haue the confession of your men here cited in this an gument for the generall obedience to the Pope euer since Constantine which is sufficient for this purpose howsoeuer the Grecians might some tymes beare themselues in some occasions of which I am to speake in an other place 23. A seuenth Arg. It is manifest by the scriptures aboue cited that the Catholique Church is perpetuall and cannot faile and Arg. 7 this by Scripture is meant of the visible Church whereof I haue giuen ample demōstration in the begining of this second Booke which I desire the reader to peruse and marke Now there is no Christian Church at all that hath bene petpetuall but this which I speake of Therefore this indiuiduall Church is the Catholique Church To See the truth of that I haue assumed let vs looke vpon the rest The Pagans come not in question because their Church is not Christian nor the Iewes for the same reason though they farre exceede you in this point of perpetuitie The Grecians they were in our communion the first thousand yeares and since haue bene neither was Grecisme beleeued allwaies or euer the faith of Nations and communion with you they haue refused Your Church and Religion hath not bene perpetuall as in the former booke wee haue seene to your griefe Another that can callenge there is not not the Aethiopian nor the Maronite nor any whatsoeuer The Roman hath euer beene and her communion euer bene vniuersall therefore this greate and ample Societie is the true Church of God 24. An eigth Argum. That is the Catholique Church whereūto come all Natiōs ād out of which all Heretiques do goe But into the communion of that companie which I haue Arg. 8 named that is into the communion of the See of Rome and the companie of Christians communicating with it all Nations hetherto haue come and out of it all Heretiques haue gone Therefore this is and hath euer bene the Catholique Church The proposition is cleere by the promises related in the beginīg that all Nations should be conuerted to the Church and her gates be euer open day and night to receiue them c. 1. Is 60. S. Aug. de Sym. 6. l. 1. c. 5. and as for Heretiques it is well knowne that they are boughes lopped of the great vine and that that heresie is a corruption of the true faith The assumption you haue at large in Ecclesiasticall Histories and you denie not but in the Primitiue tyme this companie was the Church Baronius Spondan auctar Iarricius Magdeburg Osiander Pappu◠See Prot. Apol. tr 2. c. 1. s 4. that Nations from Infidelitie were conuerted to it and that Heretikes all went out of the same companie Since vnto the same haue bene conuerted the Germanes Vandalls Polonians Danes Hungarians Noruegians Brasilians Indians and diuers others and to your companie or religion immediatelie from infidelitie no Nation at all Out of the same great companie haue gone all Heretickes since that tyme and among them those who in part were your predecessors Iconoclastes Berengarians Waldenses Albigenses Lollardes Hussites 25. Beare with me if I repeate the same againe Arg. 9 for a nienth argument The Romane See and other congregations in that communion were the Church or the Catholicke Congregation in the tyme of Saint Paul And the same congregation 300. yeares after was still the Catholicke Church and had the communion of the Christian world as you know by the Generall Councell of Nice Into it came Schythiās Iberians Armenians Hunnes and others Out went the Marcionites Nouatians Manichees Arianes Betwixt the fourth and fift age was the Coūcell of Calcedō and in that tyme likewise the foresaid cōmuniō was the Church Catholique ād their communion was with the christian world as by that councell of calcedon ād the Epistles of Leo the great who was President of it all men knowe Into this communion came Scottes French and other Nations Out went Pelagians and Nestorians after whose cōmunion in the Aethiopians you seeme to thirst In the next ages followīg which were the sixt ād seauēth were the Generall assemblies at Cōstātinople One in the tyme of Vigilius being the fifte Generall Councell The other in the tyme of Agatho which you haue in the Tōes of Councelles with most ample subscriptiō of the Bysshops which were in thē and by these Generall councelles which did also receaue the former it is euidēt that in those tymes also the cōpanie of Christians in cōmuniō with the See of Rome was the Catholicke Church ād that the communion of those Popes ād those Coūcelles was with the world of Christians Into it came the Pictes Gothes Barbarians and our Countrie Out were cast the Tritheites Monothelites and other such excrementes After those Councelles Followed others One at Nice in the tyme of Adrian the first Another at Constantinople Adrian the second being then Byshop of Rome By which Councelles it is cleere that the communion of the Roman See was then also generall and this companie the Church of God They did also receaue the former Councelles and noe communion was Generall in Christendome or continued by Vniuersall Succession but onelie this Into this companie came the Frisians Hassites Russians Out
togeather from all places to discusse and to determine Is he moued with Antiquity the Reuerence of elder times is all with vs heere are Gregories and ChrysostoÌ„s and Augustines and Basils and Ephrems and Cyrills and Cyprians and Iustines and others innumerable Is he moued by Gods word it is flatly and vnansweareably on our side Atheists children can answere they erre so grosly against the light of nature The Iewes are forced to see with their owne eies the Prophecies of the Messias and his Kingdome fullfilled in Iesus Christ and his Church And this Church to be the Catholique yeauen that which is now and hath ben euer in the Communion of the Roman See is so cleere that denying of it all Histories all Bookes all Monuments all Memorie must be denied and nothing be confessed for true which euer yet hath beene on earth Denying of it you may allso denie that there was euer Iewish Nation or Roman Emperour or Heathen Idol you may as well deny that Rome Constantinople London are or euer were THE SIXT CHAPTER What meant by a Catholique 52. BEfore I goe on to your Obiections because the place is verie fitte and the thing necessarie to be obserued and borne in minde I will tell you what I meane by a Catholicke which question is here answeared without difficultie You haue seene the Catholique Church that is the congregation of Christians in communion at all tymes with the See of Rome by a Catholique man I meane one who beleeues the Creede of this Church one of this comunion aÌ„d euerie one which did heretofore embrace this communion was a Catholique so long as he did embrace it and died a Catholique if he died in it In the communion with this Church is included a Vnion with it which vnion is founded in a conformitie or vniformitie of faith and iudgment in diuine matters And this was in all those who did resolue their beleefe into the proposition or iudgment of this Church For he who submittes his iudgment whollie to the Church and beleeues as she telles him readie to beleeue more if she declare her selfe more fullie and to condemne all doctrine which she coÌ„demnes is vndiuided from the Church in iudgment and therefore vniforme 53. Hence it comes also that not onelie those who liued at one tyme were of our communion but such also as liued in diuers ages because the following age did receaue the doctrine and generall decrees of the precedeÌ„t beleeuing all which was then by the Church beleeued and condemning such opinions as they condemned By this meanes wee doe also communicate with them all as perfectlie in the disposition of our soule and redines of our vnderstanding as if wee had liued with them HeÌ„ce it is that wee admitte all the Councelles that were generallie receaued by the Church in their tyme and are sufficientlie moued therunto by the iudgmeÌ„t of the Church which then receaued them For wee resolue our iudgment into the iudgment of the Church and that is our rule vnder God who is the prime rule and highest Obiect of our faith You will be readie to make an other vse of some part of this discourse but you cannot for you make your owne choise of that which you beleeue and doe not submitte your iudgment to the iudgment of Gods Church Wee acknowledge diuine assistance in Church-proposition as I haue said before and this doth euery Catholique which is the reason why wee are all of one religion though wee liue at seuerall tymes Out of this comes the Catholique Vnion or vnitie which is most ample reaching into all Nations and through all tymes which kind of vnitie depending on the Churches mouth as on a subordinate cause and rule but principallie on the all-teaching Spiritte directing to reuealed veâ—ities as on an infinite and immoueable principle as hereafter I will shew is peculiar to the Church of God Aske any man of our religion on whose iudgment he relies in matters of faith and he will answeare that he relies on the iudgment of the Church and if you aske further on whom the whole Church of this age hath dependence for exterior proposition of matters of faith I answeare that this whole age resolues it selfe into the precedent age and that into the precedent and so vpwardes to the first which age did resolue it selfe into the Apostle proposition and they resolued their faith into the proposition of our Sauiour who came into the world to this purpose and he Cour Sauiour being the naturall sonne of God did cleerlie behould all truth with an infinite vnderstanding And there staies the resolution hauing made a full compasse and returned thether where this veritie first was For all truth is first in the diuine vnderstanding and thence reuealed manie wayes as it hath pleased that originall goodnes the eternall Father as by prophettes in ould tyme and after by his Sonne Iesus Christ who did instruct his Church and bequeathed an euerlasting assistance to beare in minde and to deliuer truelie this lesson to future ages Hence it came that this instruction or word which he put into her mouth hath not yet gotte out of it nor will to the worldes end 54 I had made a full point and was going on to the next Chapter but I remembred with whom I am now againe dealing and that I am to repeate the same things ouer more then once hauing for the same reason also contented my selfe with verie few things among infinite which might be said for our cause My chiefe intention therefore in this second booke was onelie to declare which companie of people in all the world is the Church Catholique or the Church answearing to Gods eternall decree declared by the Prophets And I haue prooued it to be that companie which is and hath bene euer in the coÌ„munion of the See of Rome This coÌ„panie of Beleeuers is the Church described in Gods word and no other companie distinct from this whatsoeuer it be is the Church there described In the proofe of this I haue taken such grouÌ„ds as are vndeniable as the knowne coÌ„munion of Nations the like being no where found the Testimonie of worlds of people the Confession of the most learned Aduersaries that wee haue or euer had since Luther came The Euidence of generall Councelles and the knowne Opposition of all confessed Heretiques in all tymes to this Church and to no other These grounds or arguments I take so farre only as they are manifestlie vndeniable and no further and to prooue that which your owne fellowes and your Masters doe yeeld vnto aÌ„d though most vnwillinglie haue confessed in their books That is I take them to declare that the Church in communion with the See of Rome is and hath bene euer the Church described by the Prophets and that no other answearable to that description is any where els to be found VVhen you answeare this Booke I will haue no other thing answeared in this place but this Keepe the question all
a part and distinct that such as reade our papers may knowe when one matter is ended or agreed vppon and doe not thrust other things in heere If you graunt it Saie so If you doe not speake directlie to this point in this place and of no other I will not heare of erring or not erring in fundamentalls or not fundamentalls I haue nothing to doe with that It shall haue a place a part I looke onelie which is the Church answearing to the description whether it be subiect to errour in any thing or be not whether it doth erre actuallie or euer hath actuallie bene in errour I meddle not here with that The thing described in Prophecie the substance of the thing the Church I looke for and haue found her by her proportion by her face it is not yours it is ours THE SEVENTH CHAPTER Wherin answeare is giuen to some exceptions made against the Vniuersalitie of the Church THe Arguments which you and your abotters make against the foresaid vniuersality of the Church S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 12. are answeared easily And whereas first as Donatists heretofore did allso you plead for your pouertie ād paucitie of adherentes that there are fewe chozen and the world full of fooles I confesse there are to many fooles indeede and haue bene euer if you consider the whole collection of all kinde of Heretickes together with Paganes and Atheistes the number whereof being infinite the world may be said to be full But what is this to the purpose since the Catholique Church notwithstanding spreds it selfe into all Natiōs ād makes some of euery nation and those verie many also wise many being called by the Pastors by the Apostles by God to Christianitie frō all natiōs amōg which many though they receaue the word and for a tyme doe well doe flinch in tyme of temptation and fall of before the end and so they be fooles too and with the foolish virgines be shut out of heauē But yet notwithstanding all this there are in the Catholique Church some wise of all nations tongues and people more then can be numbred which infalliblie will gaine the crowne of glorie 56. An other exception you make against our Church because it doth not cōmunicate with all Christians as with your cōgregation for exāple Whereunto I answeare that to the Churches vniuersalitie communion with Heretickes ād Schismatiques is not necessarie but cōmunion with or in all Natiōs and this communion the Romā Church with the rest adherent hath With Heretiques wee will not communicate and doe herein follow the instruction of our Sauiour and Sainct Paule And accordīglie the Church in former tymes would not communicate with Arians Eunomians Nestorians or with Armenians Greciās Aethiopiās or others at such tyme as they were in errour Neither was this communion necessarie to the vniuersalitie of the Church as I said before because it is not necessarie that it communicate with all persones in the world but with all Nations Nor it is necessarie that the Churches communion be at once in all nations and so continue but that in the compasse of her tyme it be in all And thus is our Religion Catholique which hath bene in all Nations one tyme or other that hetherto haue bene Christian which can be truelie said of noe other and by her great power of conuerting Nations is going on to possesse the rest of the Nations that are on earth 56. Thirdly you except against the generalitie of some Councelles wherūto the Greeke Church then deuided would not come But this is noe hindrance to the cause for to the generalitie of a Councell noe more can be required possiblie for persones them the presence and consent of the Bysshopes in communion with the Catholique Church since Catholique Pastors not heretiques are to be heard followed and obaied in matters of faith and religion These doe succeed in the promise made to the Apostles and their successors to the worldes end and in them is the whole teaching authoritie of the Church-present vnto the tyme wherin they are whether they be more or not so many as were some age before In particular to that of the Grecians I answeare that their cōsent was not necessarie to the generalitie of the Coūcelles held in the tyme they liued in Schisme and Heresie and therefore without them the Councell was Oecumenicall for that Councell is Oecumenicall which doth include the authoritie of the presēt Catholique Church It is not requisite that all Bisshops which euer were should be raised againe to life to sitt in Councell nor that such as in after ages are to come should be borne afore their tyme to make a Councell generall neither is it necessarie to call in Heretiques of all sortes It is sufficiēt to call the Bysshopes of the Catholique communion then liuinge when the Councell is to be held The Grecians in the tyme of their Schisme were not of your religion as you haue heard from their owne mouthes when you offered vnion and in your owne iudgment they held heresie as that is of the procession of the holie Ghost from the Father onelie They returned also to the communion of the Catholique Church as you may see in the Councell of Lions and Florence where East and west agreed in doctrine against your heresie and before their Schisme they had bene in the communion of the Church a thousand yeares wel neere Of Indians and Armenians you know by this what I will saie and it is not necessarie to runne ouer the same againe 57. A fourth exception is that all nations be not at one time in the Church because some are Pagā some Hereticke And hence would you make a mā haue a scruple in reciting that part of his Creed wherin he doth professe to beleeue the Catholique Church then existent when he saies his Creede Notwithstanding this obiectiō the Creed was said in the Apostles tyme by such as were in their visible cōmunion and must and will be said as long as the world endures and he that saieth it if he beleeues Gods word and promise may securely ād must beleeue that still there is a Catholique Church which Church hath communion with all Natiōs though this communion in all the latitude be not existent at that tyme but some was before some is to follow after as the Church it selfe taken whollie is not existent all at one tyme but successiuelie to the worldes end it being the collectiō of all Catholiques which euer were are ād will be Orbis miratus est se fact◠esse Arianum Dial. con Lucif 58. A fift is made out of an exaggeration of Sainct Ieromes To the ground and occasion of the speach which was the act of the Bishops in the Councell I might āswer as S. Au. doth to the like ob made out of some words of S. Hilarius Quis nescit ilio tempore obscuris verbis multos parui sensus fuisse delusos vt putarent hoc credi ab Arianis
quod etiam ipsi credebant alios autem timore cessissè simulatè consensisse Aug. Ep. 48. See Baronius as the yeare 359. about the Councell of Ariminium which approued the Nicene faith and cōdemned Vrsatius Valens c. Afterwardes happened that which S. Ierom speaketh of when the Councell was neither f◠nor approued and all Catholikes in the world admit that such a Councell might 〈◊〉 of Ariminium neuer approued by the See Apostolike nor euer acknowledged for lawfull by the Church and by your selues also reiected I answeare that there was noe cause of feare that the Church should by that acte be all deceaued and erre in faith for the Church hath alwayes the assistance of the holie Ghost to preserue her from errour in faith by couenant of God the Father and promise of God the sonne as in the next booke you shall heare at large Neither wanted there at any tyme learned men who knew that a Councell wanting the consent of the See Apostolique was not Oecumenical properlie nor an infallible rule of faith 58. If you plead against the visibilitie of our Church with this obiectiō it is weake for the Arians euer found opponēts and those visible such as at last wonne the field If you plead with it against the vniuersalitie of the Church it is also weake and impertinent it is impertinent as it comes from you because those Arians were not Protestantes and therfore their number makes nothing for the vniuersalitie of your cause And it is also weake because their communion was neuer with all Nations nor did euer equall the vniuersalitie of the Church Which is euident because the Catholique communion was elder by three hunderd yeares and was in that tyme spred ouer all Christendome and hath continued after Arianisme is gone these many hundred yeeres in the communion of the Christian world and more Natiōs haue bene since conuerted to it and are dailie and so will be till she hath bene in the communion of them all If therfore you will measure both take each communion in her greatest latitude of tyme and place or Nations and you will presentlie see Arianisme to be too narrowe and too short as not hauing possessed so many Nations nor dured so longe a tyme. Much lesse will you find that begining the same tyme it ranne side by side in an equall or a fuller streame through all ages to this daie and were so to continue if you intended this I should suspect your braine 59. Touching the comparison of it to that part of the Church at least which was at that tyme you thinke it so filled all places of the Christian world that Catholiques had noe roome This errour is of ignorance you may amend it if you inquire of some who did liue then If I should bring many testimonies you would saie I were tedious in matter of historie and therfore will content my selfe and you also if you be reasonable with one from many Authors S. Athanasius a man beyond exception together with diuers Bysshopes of Aegypt Thebais and Libia wrote to Iouiā the Emperour of the Nicene faith thus Know certainely ap Theodoret l. 4. c. 3. most holie Emperour that this same faith hath bene published from all memorie of ages this the holie fathers assembled at Nice haue confirmed to this haue assented all Churches euerie where as of Spaine of Britanie of France of all Italie of Dalmatia of Mysia of Macedonia and all Greece and all the Churches of Africke Sardinia Cyprus Creete Pāphilia Lycia Isauria and the Churches of Aegypt Lybia Pontus Cappadocia and the Churches of the bordering countryes and finallie the Churches of the east some fewe excepted which doe fauour the Arian sect for wee doe certainelie know the sentence of them all and haue receaued letters from them and doe know certainlie most holie Emperour that although a fewe doe contradict this faith the whole world cannot suffer preiudice therby 60. Sixtly you oppose vnto vs want of vnitie I answeare that all Catholiques doe submit their vnderstandings to the iugment of the Church and to the generall decrees of their Pastores and masters readie to beleeue whatsoeuer they generallie in Councells doe define and to reiect whatsoeuer they condemne and by these meanes are vnited perfectlie vnto those Councelles and to the whole Church in faith and iudgment about religion each man in the Church hauing his vnderstanding vndeuided in beleefe from the Church and so being one with it Vnitie consisting in Indiuision as you haue learned of the philosopher lōge agoe Our Councelles likewise are one in doctrine as the partes of Scriptures are though they be not Scripture but declarations of Gods word that is they are vndiuided there being amōgst thē all noe opposition or dissent in decrees and definitiōs ād the later receauing what hath bene formerlie defined wherof hereafter I will discourse a part because as Iulian Porphyrie and others thought they sawe cōtradictions in the Scripture so you haue imagined the like of Coūcelles though nothing so many nor haueing that shew as those had which by the foresaid infidelles were obiected and if you know not so much you are not of that reading your frindes haue taken you to be To your argumente I saie therfore that this companie hath vnitie in beleefe noe man at all in the companie being diuided from the rest in beleefe howsoeuer about thinges vndefinied and vndetermined by the Church in their tyme there might be diuersitie of opinions ād may be now in the like as he knowes that hath bene a weeke in the Schooles of deuinitie The same companie hath originallie likewise vnitie in religion and faith each vnderstanding in the whole mysticall bodie being submitted to the same iudge of cōtrouersies that is to Gods Spiritte in the Church Catholique and acknowledging this one Spiritte and this one Church and this one Spiritte in this one Church iudging defininge determining ruling all VVhich common vnion and consent in one makes their communion so generall so firme and so conspicuous as you are faine to see with your eies against your will 61. A seuenth argument is made against succession and it is obiected that wee haue noe succession of Catholiques or of such as wee are I answeare that the Catholique religion and Church is that whose communion is with all Nations as you haue heard and a Catholicke is a man who doth resolue his faith into this Church and into the Spiritte which doth assist and teach it such were all who did receaue the Generall Councelles before spoken of and the doctrine of the Church present to the tymes wherein they liued which were infinite and such will be to the worldes end If you will haue some assigned more particularly that you may dispute against them I name whole assemblies of pastors in Generall Councell I name the Generall Councells mentioned heretofore In them was our Succession and the Catholique Church in them was conspicuous and worlds of people did communicate with
them This is a succession because they were not all at one tyme and a Catholique succession because the communion of Nations was with them and with their faith and their Decrees 61. Other obiections you haue against the truth of the doctrine which this Church doth maintaine But the chiefest of them are allready answeared in another place And hereafter I will proue at large that the Catholique Church onelie hath the assistance of the all teaching Spiritte and therfore cannot be condemned of errour by any meanes extant in the world whatsoeuer noe iudgment being of greater or of equall authoritie with hers by reason of the Spiritte which doth teach her all truth The second Conclusion The Christians in Communion with Vrbanus VIII are the Church of God THE THIRD BOOKE OF DIVINE ASSISTANCE THE FIRST CHAPTER Proouing diuine Assistance in the Catholike Church 1. HAVING declared sufficientlie which is the Church it followes next that wee speake of the diuine assistance in beleeuing and teaching which assistance the sonne of God hath promised vnto it Catholiques as I haue said before doe resolue their iudgment into the iudgment of the Church and the iudgment of the Church doth relie vppon the assistance of the holie Ghost by whose prouidence it is preserued from erring in the pâ—oposition of diuine faith This assistance in Church-proposition wee beleeue and that you must also grant and beleeue it I am now to prooue You will not denie that men are to be instructed trulie in faith an diuine matters for how shall they liue as Christians ought vnles they beleeue rightlie and how shall they beleeue rightlie if they be not well taught and instructed how shall they inuocate saith the Apostle in whome they haue not beleeued Rom. 10.14 and how shall they beleeue in whoÌ„ they haue not heard or how shall they heare without a preacher it cannot be For no man of himselfe is able to finde out or to discouer the mysteries of our faith the Trinitie the Incarnation of the Sonne of God the Scriptures and their meaning It is therefore necessarie that men be instructed in matters of faith 2. And since instruction is necessarie as wee also by experience know this instruction must be looked for in some Schoole and from some masters or instructors The question therefore comes presentlie about this teaching Schoole which and where it is that a man there may be instructed To this question the answeare is easie first it is not the companie of Athiests or Pagans for their doctrine and instruction is not holie and diuine Secondlie it is not the companie of Iewes for their doctrine is not Christian Thirdlie it is not the companie of confessed Heretiques therefore it is the Church for the Church is the Schoole of Iesus Christ and which this is I haue declared in the former booke This supposed I reason thus for diuine assistance 3. It belongs to the prouidence of allmightie God to assist that Schoole in which by his will and ordinance the whole world is to be instructed in diuine matters and Religion Therefore it belongs to Gods prouidence to Arg. 1 assist the Church for the Church is the said Schoole as I declared before The argument is cleere and needs no further confirmation but least you seeke to escape it if it be vrged by one that is no Scholler with some fonde distinction I note here that the Spirit doth assist to beleeue and to teach The first of these acts is in the vnderstanding and interior the second is publique or exterior and in the mouth The Spirit doth assist the Church both wayes that is to beleeue and to teach but the argument doth proceede here of assistance to the later to teach because faith according to S. Paul doth suppose instruction or teaching aÌ„d euery one should haue faith for without faith it is impossible to please God and he that beleeueth not shall be condemned Hebr. 11. Mar. 16. Moreouer you knowe that for resolution in diuine matters it is necessarie that a man knowe where to seeke instruction whom he may securelie followe in whose iudgment he may rest in whome and where the Spirit of God doth speake This is the thinge wee looke for and this thing is in noe other companie but the Schoole of Iesus Christe the Church 4. It may be you will say that a man desirous of instruction should come to you But this will not satisfie for what should a man haue done before Luther when Protestants were not nor your Religion thought vppon as I haue seene allreadie in the first booke He might haue gone ouer all the world to looke for your Church and lost his labour But deale plainlie with vs and declare your minde is there any congregation in the world whose instruction one may securelie fellowe or no if there be not what course should vnlearned men take to learne the truth shall they beleeue without preachers If there be which is it and whence hath it that it may be followed of it selfe or from the Spirit you can answeare nothinge but the Spirit and this Spirit not in Athiests nor in Iewes nor in confessed Heretiques but in the Church And thus much for those who seeke instruction 5. I prooue secondlie this assistance by the necessitie of a Iudge to determine controuersies Arg. 2 in matter of Religion Since the Scripture is obscure in many places and since Heresies do and must arise in the world it is necessarie that there be some Visible meanes able and sufficient to determine controuersies which meanes can be no other but the proposition and iudgmeÌ„t of the Church For being visible and intelligent able to heare examine and define the controuersies it must needs consist of men not of meere Spirits or of insensible creatures and if it consist of men these men must not be Athiests or enemies to the Christian doctrine such as are Pagans Iewes and confessed Heretiques and therefore they must be the Church or that part of it which is to teach The iudge of controuersies therefore is the Church Whence it followes that the holie Spirit doth assist her in this act of determining controuersies in matter of faith directing her vnderstaÌ„ding to coÌ„ceaue the meaning of Gods word and preseruing her from errour in the proposition of it This discourse you cannot denie with any shewe of probabilitie for there is no meanes to make an end of controuersies among men if the iudgment of the Church be neglected or be not certaine aÌ„d infallible if the Spirit of truth be not in the Church it is in none at all if it doth not teach the Church it doth teach none if it doth not direct the Church to vnderstand Gods word it directeth none if it doth not assist the Church when she for the generall good of the Christian world doth determine a controuersie of faith it doth assist none at all for all the promise made by our Sauiour Iesus Christ of assistaÌ„ce is made vnto
allmightie God But it is true that all the people in the world are thus obliged as I prooue by the words of our Sauiour in sainct Marke Going into the world preach the Gospell to all creatures Mar. 16. v. 15.16 he that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued but he that beleeueth not shall be condemned Out of this argument followeth yet further that the Church cannot erre in any thing of faith whether it be fundamentall or not fundamentall incurable or curable great or little for the people are to beleeue that which the Church doth teach and thus God doth warrant in the place here alleaged and therfore it appertaines vnto his prouidēce to assist and protect the Church so that it neuer teach errour in steede of Gods word 14. The seauenth argument I make out of the iudgment of all Christiās before Luther touching the foresaid obligation to beleeue the Church and the diuine spirit in it And here I except onelie such as your selfe shall confesse to haue bene Heretiques and proceede thus Generall Councells did allwayes Arg. 7 beleeue that the Church was to be beleeued and that it had diuine assistance and therfore did accurse all those who beleeued the contrarie to the Church This you know by their acts and canons The people in communion with these Councells did beleeue the same which the Councells did and receaued that which they defined The fathers Saint Augustine Saint Hierome and the rest did the same And the same did all the predestinate who liued in the communion of the Church takinge their instruction from the mouth of the Church and beleeuing as the Church did which is further manifest because those are damned who beleeued not the Church as hath bene prooued in the former argument out of Sauiours words since therfore the predestinate are saued it remaines vndeniable that they did beleeue the Church 15. And here because you some tymes when you haue dronke to much of the cuppe of selfe loue do thinke that you entertaine the holie Ghost better then any of our religion haue done especiallie since you last were in heauen and read your name there in the booke of life I oppose spiritte vnto spiritte I oppose vnto you the knowne Saints of our Religion both late and ancient and obiect vnto you the Spiritte which was in them You haue there Saint Thomas of Aquine Sainct Bonauenture Saint Francis Sainct Dominicke Sainct Charles Boromeus Sainct Xauerius and others whose sanctitie God by miraculous workes and signes hath diuulged Among the auncient you haue the holie fathers and Martyres it were longe to repeate their names here You haue the martyrologe of Baronius there are thousands of them and the places where they liued consult his notes thereunto if you doubt of any And now I argue thus All true Christians in all ages euen from the Apostles tyme did euer rest in the iudgmēt of the Church as infallible beleeuīg what was in the Church before them vniuersallie beleeued ād condemning for Heretiques all those which before were vniuersallie condemned for such And this commō principle descēded through all ages so that whatsoeuer was vniuersallie taught by the pastors as matter of faith was receaued vniuersallie by the people and was approued by the generall iudgment of the Church of God and of her spiritte This I would haue you to consider well and marke againe that the communion of Gods elect was in this multitude which is further manifest first because this onelie is the true Church of God and they were all of the true Church Secondlie by those infinite miracles whereby God hath as it were with a seale confirmed their course of life and blessed end ād thirdlie because the communion of all holie fathers whose sanctitie you acknowledge and of infinite Martyrs putte to death for profession of Christianitie hath bene openlie with and in this Church 16. I prooue the same assistance eightlie by the testimonie of Sainct Paul Apostle and Master of the Gētiles a rule you knowe must Arg. 8 be right and a rule of faith free from errour This you are readie to admitte and to interprete of the Scripture the word of God I graunt is right but there are difficulties which it is which is all what is the sense of diuers places as all knowe by the controuersies now adaies Wee looke therfore for a liuing rule or iudge and certaine proponent of Gods word and meaning Such a rule the Apostle directeth vs vnto ā exteriour visible perpetuall rule to be followed by Christian people and this if it be proposed by God to be followed is infallible by his protection and assistance will you heare the Apostles words He Christ gaue some Apostles and some Prophets and other some Euangelists and other some pastors Ephes 4.11 12.13.14 and Doctors to the consummation of the Saincts to the worck of ministerie vnto the edifying of the body of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God into a perfect mā into the measure of the age of the fullnes of Christ that now wee be not children wauering and caried aboute with euerie winde of doctrine in the wickednes of men to the circumuention of errour Marke in this chapter of S. Paule how many things are defined against you and your fellowes First the perpetuitie of the Church in that he saith God gaue some pastors and Doctors vntill wee all meete in the vnitie of faith Secondlie the perpetuall visibilitie of it in that these pastors are building all the tyme and that they are Apostles Pastors Doctors whose office is visible and doth manifest their persōs to the flocke thirdlie the infallibilitie of the Church is explicated by the end of the foresaid perpetuall ministerie which is that wee be not wauering Among those the Apostle speakes of you I hope include the predestinate who therfore you see depend vppon exteriour certain cōmon ād in a word Catholique propositiō of the faith a litle before you haue the vnitie of this bodie and of the Spiritte of it and after followes the varietie of functions in this one visible bodie of Iesus Christ including the elect as I haue noted before The words are Doing the truth in Charitie let vs in all things grow in him which is the head Christ 〈◊〉 15.16 of whome the whole bodie being compact and knit togeather by all iuncture of subministration according to the operation in the measure of euery member maketh the increase of the bodie vnto the edifying of it selfe in Charitie Reflect or all this and tell me whether in this Bodie be Gods elect or no whether it be visible or inuisible whether it be many bodies or one bodie and whether this body be the true Church of Christ wherof he is the head 17. But now let vs to our argument againe Sainct Paule teacheth in this Chapter that God hath prouided continuall visible meanes to keepe men from errour therfore these meanes
is your ignorance in the manner 67. Knowe therefore secondlie that two waies a mā may beleeue all which the Church teacheth to be true One waie is by acknowledging each point of her doctrine in particular because the Spirit of God in and by her doth auouch it and this faith is vnfoulded An other is by acknowledging in generall and as it were in grosse all to be true which the Church doth teach not descending into the particular consideration of each and this is implicite or infolded faith because in it are infolded all the particulars which the Church doth teach 68. By this distinction of vnfoulded and infoulded faith you now know my meaning and it is this That the faith of all Catholikes both learned ād vnlerned late ād aūciēt is not equallie vnfoulded but yet is all one because that is infolded in ones faith which is vnfoulded with an other And thus a man who reades the Scripture and still doth increase in diuine knowledge learning dailie more and more is of the same religion and the same faith all the while Thus are the people ād their pastors of the same religion though the pastors knowe and beleeue more in particular then the clownes euer heard of Thus was S. Augustine and his mother Monica of one religion though she knewe not all the deuinitie or poīts of faith or Scripture in particular which he knewe Thus were the Corinthians and S. Paul thus are wee and the old Fathers the Fathers and the Apostles of the same religiō and thus is the later Church and the primitiue vnited in faith Because nothing is generallie beleeued now which was not then generallie beleeued though now something be more vnfolded in the generall beleefe of the communitie I saie nothing of some eminent men of those tymes then was by the multitude beleeued in particular or vnfolded then and something might haue bene then vnfolded which is not so commonlie knowne at this tyme. And no doubt but the Apostles knewe more in particular then mē doe nowe 69. By the same doctrine you may vnderstād howe the Catholiques in the whole body frō the Apostles to this daie though infinite haue bene all of one religion and the same with vs notwithstāding that each clowne knewe not all in particular which the learned did yea notwithstāding many learned knewe not all in particular And the reason is because in this principle I beleeue as the Church and followe her iudgment in matter of faith each had ALL whether he were learned or vnlearned and euerie Catholique did this and he who did it not was no Catholique 70. You thinke peraduenture that no two are exactlie of the same religiō vnles their faith be equallie distinct in obiect and vnfolded equallie which conceipt if it were true none were of the same religion with the Apostles in their tyme nor with the holie Fathers in theirs who beleeued not distinctlie and in particular as many points as they did which is a grosse errour in Christianitie and makes as many religions allmost as men Are you in your parish all of one religion or not if you are then by your rule who cannot abide implicite faith each old wife and yonge girle knowes as much in particular in the Bible and Deuinitie as your selfe or if they doe not I praie you tell me how they be exactlie of the same religion with you I knowe you will runne to fundamentalls but the shift will not serue because agreement in fundamentalls in your sense doth not suffize to the exact agreement in religion for wee and you be not of one religiō as all the world knowes and yet you saie that wee disagree not in fundamētalls and indeede there are infinite waies to erre against Faith otherwise he that did obstinatelie denie all the Bible and euerie verse of it excepting those onelie wherin is one of your fundamentalls which fundamētalls as you recon them are verie fewe and contained in the Creede with baptisme and the supper he I saie who did obstinatelie this were no Heretique but a man of your religion exactlie howsoeuer he be detested by the Christian world 71. Hauing declared the reason whie Catholiques are all of one religion by reason of their common vnion in one vniuersall principle containing their particular consent in the rest as occasion doth require to which generall principle they are all moued by the words and promise of Iesus Christ it is not amisse now to looke about for the originall cause why Heretiques are not all of one religion since they resolue all or pretend to resolue their faith into the Scripture or the Spirit I neede not goe farre to finde it out for it is knowne by the definition of an Heretique He is a man who makes his owne election by his priuate iudgment in matter of religion And thence it is that hauing cast of Church authoritie ād putt his owne witt in place to iudge each takes where and what he likes and their iudgments being diuers they take diuers things and expound diuerslie 74. Neither doth the scripture serue the turne in this case first because there is disagreement which is Scripture which cause must be first determined by some iudge and this iudge to each Heretick is his owne witt Secōdlie it is obscure ād therefore there is infinite varietie in guessing at the meaning of it as wee see by the experience of many hundred yeares and in this case likewise each Heretique doth adore his owne iudgment As for the spirit that of God is not among Heretiques but in the Church as I haue prooued since therfore they are not the Church and their Spirit opposite it followes that it is another and that erroneous And by the mulplicitie of iudgments and contradictions among them selues it appeares euidentlie that they are many and no meruaile since each crowcheth vnto his owne since each hath his Maozim within himselfe This therfore is the reason whie Arians Nestorians Lutherans c. though they be all against the Catholique be not of one religion among them selues 73. Neither would the consequence be good if you should argue thus Luther receaues the letter of Scripture and Caluin receaues the letter of Scripture therefore Luther and Caluin are of one Religion it doth not hold I say since they receaue not the same sense nor are vnited in any one common meane to receaue it And were the argument good it would prooue Caluinists and Arians to be of the same Religion since each receaue the letter 74. Hence it comes allso that all Heretiques cannot haue one definition but that euery one is to be defined according to the points he doth hold in particular because of his difference from others in the sense though perhaps he admitte the letter with others And in taking this sense he is not bounded by any authoritie common to him and to other Heretiques but onelie by his owne will and conceit Since therefore there is difference amonge Heretiques and that this
founde to hold with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple aÌ„d doubt must be the true and Catholique doctrine of the Church Whosoeuer beleeue that Christ came in our flesh and that he arose from death to life in the same flesh in which he was borne and suffered S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 4. and that he is the sonne of God God with God and one with the Father and the one vnchangeable word of the Father by which all things are made but do so disagree with his body which is the Church that they hold not communion with the whole as farre as euer it is spred about the world but are found separate in some part or corner it is manifest that they are not in the Catholique Church Prosp de promiss praedic Dei par 4. c. 5. The Apostles Peeter and Paul deliuering in the cittie of Rome to posterity the doctrine of our Lord peaceable and one haue consecrated the Church of the Gentiles with their blood and memories according to the passioÌ„ of our Lord. A ChristiaÌ„ coÌ„municating with this generall Church is a Catholique S. Cypri de Vnit. Eccl. He that is separated froÌ„ it is an Heretique There is one heade aÌ„d one origeÌ„ aÌ„d one mother by the issue of her fecuÌ„ditie copious by her increase wee are borne wee are nourished with her milke with her spirit wee are animated The Spouse of Christ cannot be defiled with adultery shee is pure and honest She knoweth one house and with chast bashfullnes keepeth the sanctity of one bed This Church preserueth vs in God this aduanceth to the kingdome the children she hath brought foorth VVhosoeuer deuided from this Church cleaueth to the adultresse he is separated from the promises of the Church He cannot haue God his Father who hath not the Church to his mother In the Church S. Iren. l. 9 adu Haereâ— c. 40. God hath constituted Apostles Prophets Doctors and all the rest of the operation of the Spirit of which those are not partakers who repaire not vnto the Church VVhere the Church is THERE IS THE SPIRIT of God and where the Spirit of God is there is the Church and all grace Idem l. â— c. 4â— VVee must obay those Priests that are in the Church those that haue Succession from the Apostles who tegeather with Episcopall power haue according to the good pleasure of the Father receaued the certaine guift of truth And all the rest who depart from the originall Succession wheresoeuer they be assembled to haue suspected either as Heretiques or Schismatiques or Hypocrites â—actant â— 4. 〈◊〉 â—nstitut c. â—lt and all these doe fall from the truth It is onely the Catholique Church that hath the true worship and seruice of God This is the wellspring of truth the dwelling place of faith the temple of God into which whosoeuer entreth not and from which whosoeuer departeth is without all hope of life 〈◊〉 Aug. de â—de ad â—et c. 39. and eternall Saluation Hold for most certaine and vndoubted that no Heretique nor Schismatique though baptized in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy Ghost though he giue almes neuer so largely yea though he shed his blood for the name of Christ can possiblie be saued vnles he be reconciled vnto the Catholique Church 70. I omit many other graue speaches of holie Fathers to this effect of consenting with the Church in faith and submitting our iudgment thereunto And of S. Augustine particularlie whom I do alleage more willinglie because you preteÌ„d to honour him as where he saith for his part he would not beleeue the Gospell 〈◊〉 Aug. coÌ„t Ep. fund c. â— vnles the authoritie of the Church moued him That he was held in the Church by the consent of people â— c. 4. and Nations by an authoritie begotten with miracles nourished with hope increased by antiquitie And that it is a point of most insolent madnes to dispute whether that be to be obserued which is frequented by the whole Church through the world Ep. 118. c. â— Moreouer what S. Augustine said of S. Cyprian he might haue said of any other father to wit that he would haue yelded to the authority of the Church Neither would the Fathers hold communion with any who did oppose themselues to the definitions of generall Councells or to the doctrine of the Church but held them for Heretiques 81. And thus much for this point wherein I haue not alleaged the foresaid authorities to moue you for I knowe that in your * Vide I. Rain Concl. 2. fine conscience you will not yeeld to the Fathers neither a part nor all together in Generall Councell nor stoope to their Spirit nor beleeue their Creede But I haue done it to shewe you that I haue learned of them the doctrine which I tould you and that by their exaÌ„ple I do submit my vnderstaÌ„ding to the Church in all coÌ„trouersies and securelie rest in her iudgmeÌ„t For she with infinite eies doth allwayes diligentlie looke on Gods word aÌ„d with infinite care aÌ„d industrie attends vnto the truth Good wits though learned may mistake each scholler is not a SaiÌ„t the guifts of the Spirit are deuided amoÌ„g meÌ„ But all the treasure of the spirit all the Saints aÌ„d Predestinate the highest Authoritie aÌ„d all meanes possible for mortall men to learne the truth are in the Church There the Angells of the Gospell deliuer the will of the diuine Maiestie there the Secretaries of heauen do register Gods words and there Iesus Christ our Master doth teach and bringe vp his Elect and prepare them for his high Schoole of deuinitie wherein the Cherubins and Seraphins haue their order From * You say that wee obtrude vnto you doctrine for diuine which is not such For the nouice in Controuersie at some parts of the Bible Inuocation of Saincts Purgatorie wee denie that wee propose any thing for diuine and reuealed which is not indeede diuine and reuealed This is therefore a Controuersie betwixt vs. What way is there to know the truth in this controuersie The Spirit where In the Church Againe you say wee interprete the Scriptures wrong wee denie it what Iudge The spiritte of truth where In the Schoole of Iesus Christ VVhich is this Schoole The Church VVhich is the Church That which is in communion with Vrbanus 8. Reflect well on this discourse and make the like on all occasioÌ„s in any CoÌ„trouersie of faith whatsoeuer Is it a controuersie you speake of or is it agreed on both sides If a Controuersie and in Religion the truth may be knowne The question then comes Who it to Iudge And the Answer is The spirit In Whom in The Church But you will aske why must wee stand to the Iudgment of the Spirit in the Church rather then to the iudgment of the Spirit in N. N. as in Iohn Caluin for example I answere because wee knowe
of their visibilitie But God as I said hath not yet permitted the booke of life to be coppied out and diuulged Iohn 4.23 1. Io. 2.27 109. You obiect first that true worshippers adore in Spirit and truth and vnction teacheth all This is true But those worshippers those ānointed are in the Church they are a part ād the chiefest part of the visible communitie whereof I haue spoken in the second booke they are in the visible fold of Christ Were the Apostles and the rest of their Religion the true Church or no were they was that Bodie that communitie visible or inuisible their sermons were not they heard were not their writings seene went not their sound ouer all the world why then they were visible As for the vnctiō it teacheth the Catholique Church it teacheth men to giue assent to such things as the Apostles then did and their Successors now doe propose They may preach and be heard allso but without vnction the people will not beleeue 1. Cor. 3. Paul planteth and Apollo watereth but God giueth the increase In the same Catholique Church are those adorers in Spirit and in the middest of it the sanctification of God is foreuer The Apostles did they adore in Spirit or no if they did whie may not a visible Church do so if they did not who will beleeue that you do 110. Secondlie you obiect that there are none in the Church but predestinate If you speake of the Church triumphant you say true if you speake of the militant Church it is not so for all those that for a tyme adhere vnto this bodie and are parts of it do not finallie perseuere some are multiplied aboue number and beleeue a while but reuolt and fall of before they die The Church militant is the companie of beleeuers in communion with S. Peeter and his See It is the companie of Catholiques And Catholiques some are in charitie and in the grace of God and are saued some die in mortall sinne some loose their faith at last 1. Tim 1. In the primitiue Church some made shipwracke of their faith as Hymeneus and Alexander saith the Apostle Some do beleeue for a tyme said our B. Sauiour Luk. 8.1 and in tyme of tēptation do reuolt And the Spirit manifestlie saith that in the last tymes certaine shall depart from the faith attending to the Spiritts of errour 1. Tim. 4 Matth. 2 14. Many are called but fewe chosen There are some with wedding garments and some without some wise virgins some foolish some corne some chaffe some vessells of honour some of dishonour some good some bad some predestinate some reprobate in the Church The predestinate will perseuer the rest will not 111. I come now to the second part of this Chapter wherein I am to loosesome tyme in asking a question or two about your dombe-preaching Church about the Saincts of your election about those people which were in all tymes but neuer before Luther and in all Nations before his tyme but no wherein the world And I demand first whether all the rest were like you or no if they were why then were they inuisible You say you are predestinate and yet you are visible notwithstanding your predestination and a member of that Church whie then might not the other men be visible allso euerie one of thē and the whole visible 112. I demaund secondlie whether you do knowe the rest of your Church the rest of your predestinate breethren or whether you knowe none of that Church but your selfe onely ād whether euery one in that Church knowe himselfe onelie and no more If you do not knowe any of them what Societie cā you haue among you what gouerment what forme of a Church If you do knowe any I desire to heare how wee finde not your names in the Scripture the booke of life is not printed with the Gospell 2. Tim. 2.19 Iohn 10.14 wee reade there that our Lord knowes who be his that our greate Pastor knowes his sheepe That you can do it that you can number all his sheepe that you can point them out wee reade not I pray you howe come you to knowe the secret is it by exterior profession that serues not they may dissemble and which is worse for you none professed your religion for 900 yeeres togeather and therefore by profession you knowe none in all that tyme. Neither would an vnfained profession haue serued the turne for euerie one that persuades himselfe that he beleeues is not constant in the faith nor predestinate What then be the certaine markes whereby you knowe your inuisible brethrē that wee may knowe them too or do you not indeed knowe them Remember what hath ben said in the first booke if you knowe them let vs heare the markes the markes of a predestinated Protestant and bringe vs one example any tyme for 900. yeeres before Luther of such a man an example out of questiō a manifest example If you do not knowe them you cannot conferre with them in your difficulties you cannot helpe them in their necessities you cannot meete in Councell as the Apostles and Pastors did in the primitiue Church you cannot haue the face nor the gouerment of a Church 133. I must examine further by your leaue In your Catholique Church of predestinate is there order or confusion are there Pastors ād Doctors and Bysshops or no Bysshops no Pastors no Doctors is there a Hierarchie or not are the preachers and Superintendents seene and heard or how are the things dōne The reason of my demand or doubt is because this Catholique Church of yours is inuisible and therefore it seemes that no man can see the Preacher otherwise many in the companie might see him if not all and so he were visible He allso might see them he preached vnto and so they were visible too and consequentlie the whole companie and the whole Church were visible not inuisible 114. It might seeme by your talke that this holie Congregation of yours hath greate eares and no eies for if they had eies they might then see the Ministers that instructe them they might see their Superintendents Or if they can heare and not see these Ministers their eares reach a greate deale further then their eies But this will not content me neither if yo graunt it for that which may be heard makes a noise and by the noise discouers it selfe if therefore your predestinated Preachers haue made a noise in the world the Christians or Papists liuing with them should haue heard it though they could not see those inuisible men and this at least would be found on record as other wonders are to wit That in all Christian countries there was a Protestant noise ād sermons euerie where in euerie Nation but no preacher seene this would haue bene found in the Chronicles of all countries and some would haue bene so curiouse as to haue noted the points of the Sermons and set downe the doctrine But
had allwayes Gods Spirit in her hart and Gods word in her mouth which hath conuerted Nations condemned Heresies assembled Councelles maintained order administred Sacraments and bred Saincts To the Church described in the Scripture To the visible To the Catholique Church 119. It may be that your selfe by this tyme are wearie of your owne inuention to the end therefore I may giue you scope to interprete your selfe better then you haue done hetherto I will aske a question or two more and make and end Either it is sufficient to saluation to followe the instruction of the visible Church or no if it be not sufficient then God hath not prouided sufficient meanes for instruction for without a preacher men cannot beleeue as I haue tould you oft from S. Paul If it be sufficient then leaue vs to followe this instruction to be directed by this Church wee haue that wee looke for I haue prooued heretofore that the Church hath Gods words euer in her mouth and that she deliuereth true doctrine without errour fundamentall or other I demaund now whether the predestinate do beleeue this doctrine this religiō thus perpetuallie taught or not if they doe not they be not of the true Religion they be not the sheepe of Christ for his sheepe doe heare his voice Io. 10. they may be your predecessors they are not ours they are Saincts of your making but not Gods elect If they doe then this visible Church ād Gods predestinate are all of one Religiō one faith one body mysticall they all make one Church Speake plainlie man the Religion which God maketh the Church to professe allwaies is it true or false if false how is it Gods instruction You haue profited sure exceedinglie by your Spirit if now you taxe God with false doctrine if it be true wee may followe it wee must followe it The predestinated people are they of this Religion thus professed or are they of an other if of an other Gal. 1. ◠Cor. 16. I haue nothing to doe with them anathema anathema if they be of this Religion all is well 120. To conclud that the Church of God is one and visible and that the predestinate are in it hath bene the sense and faith of all the Catholique world who haue all hoped to be saued in this Church in the visible Church of God it hath bene the faith of all the auncient Fathers and Doctors of the Church who acknowledged themselues children of it and were directed by it it hath bene the faith of the Saincts and predestinate themselues who did here beleeue as wee doe and God hath by miracles and other wayes manifested their sanctitie vnto the world And finallie it is the sense of the Spirit of the Catholique Church which cannot erre in such a point as I haue prooued larglie and you in your grounds should confesse because the thing is fundamentall and therefore it is a signe of extraordinarie stupiditie or malice or both to stagger in it THE SEVENTH CHAPTER Two other arguments are answered 121. IF any of your arguments should escape vntouched you would bragge of their streingth and therefore I am glad I haue ouertaken other two before they gette out of my memorie The first is Whittak Rainolds That which may happē to any one may happē to all or to euerie one But to erre may happē to any Church adde for ought you know for thus it did happē to the Churches of Thiatira Corinth c. therefore it may happē to euery one or to all ād so all at ōce may erre Thus you I haue some cause to thinke you haue a wide mouth suppose you cā thrust ā egge into it A clowne there might dispute in your forme ād moode thus That which may happē to any one of the egges in your parish may happen to all or to euerie one but to be thrust into your mouth at once may happen to any one of those egges therefore it may happen to them all and then your mouth will be stopt Now if one mouthfull be not inough for your dinner you may fall next to the meate and eate it all euery bit for that which may happen to any bit may happē to euery bit the clowne your Scholler would say and ofterwards at the same meale you might drinke all the drinke euery cupfull euery drop 122. Suppose all the men in England should cast the dice for a thousand pound with these conditiōs that the first which threwe twelue with two dice should haue it and if none threwe twelue the monie should be yours To see faire play ād to doe you all the fauour wee can wee will suppose the dice to be iust ād no tricke vsed at all The first may throwe ames ace I suppose the least for your good but it is fiue to one he will not Yet admitt he doth It is fiue to one the second doth not yet admitt his cast be ames ace too for what chāce might happen to the other might happen to him Thus I will run on till I come to twentie and surelie it is much that twentie one after another should haue the same cast and the dice exactlie iust It is not probable that it would hould on so to a hundred yet what might happen to any one might happen say you to euery one It is incredible it should goe on in the same chāce to a thousand yet in your logicke this guggion must be swallowed after his fellowes But that it should run thorough them all it is not possible for then fortune would be constant and cōtingencie would prooue to be a neeessity which no man will say who knowes what he saith yet this must downe your throate too for what may happen to any one may happen to euerie one that so in the end you may get to your selfe the thousand pound The like might happen if all the men that are in the world should cast the dice and should haue done so euer since dice were first inuented because what might happen to any one might as you say happen to euery one And when each had throwne he might die before you and cōsequentlie all might doe so in your principles so you should be the onelie man a liue ād haue all their money too And thus much to let you see the weake forme of your argumēt which nothwithstādīg is one of the maine foundatiōs where on your mē do build their doctrine of the fallibility of Gods Church 123. Now to the matter of the argument I answeare that allmighiie God is infinite and therfore none can hinder his designe or make frustrate his intention Wherfore since he hath decreed to keepe allwayes to the worlds end a Church on earth infallible in doctrine as I haue declared by the testimony of holy Scripture his prouidence will effect it and make it perseuere in what persons and what places he please Wee haue no reuelation thath the true faith shall perseuere allwayes in France or in
doctrine and her Spiritte 126. Awake man for shame awake and looke aboute consider what you doe here is a faire waie before you and you like a bedlome runne out of it ouer shoes ouer bootes ouer head and eares imagining notwithstanding that you walke aboue heauen and that euerie steppe is on a starre The Church the Councells the Fathers Apostles Euangelists all are in errour all vnder your feete whilst your chariot is rowld vniformelie aboue the Sunne and heauen takes newe lawes from your allmightie witte I will ascend into heauen Isay 14. v. 13.14 aboue the starres of God I will exalt my throne I will sit in the mount of the Testament in the sides of the North. I will ascend aboue the height of the clowdes I will be like the highest So he that wēt before you if you prick on apace you will ouertake him for he is yet at his Inne ād there to stay an eternall night That past you may iogge on together I loue your person I wish your saluatiō but hate your heresie and make no greate account of that which you most adore your learnīg In the Schoole of errour be manie good witts There the Manichees and Ariās ād Caluinists haue their order if there be any order where no man will be second Aristotles Logicke and Tullies Rhetoricke could not make of superstition true Religion I am not in loue with Hell though in it be greate Schollers the Foulest there was once the Fairest amōge creatures for endowments or nature and strength of vnderstanding I knowe that such as did applaud his cōceipt were partners in his fall I knowe too that all the knowledge of all Pagans of all Heretiques of all aduersaries put together doth not equall the knowledge of the Church It is the Schoole of Iesus Christ who taught a thing worthie of eternall admiration a poore fisherman and on the suddaine too to speake all tongues I speake it to the confusion of such aduersaries of our Sauiour as glory in their skill in others language and do repeate againe to the Rhetoricians he suddainlie made the same man so good an Oratour that he conuerted vnto his Masters doctrine in the face of his aduersaries Act. 2 three thousand with one Sermon he so instructed his disciples in deuinitie that they conuinced Greece the worlds Academie for wit and learning persuaded Rome in the flourishing tyme of her power though she imploied all her force to frustrate their proceeding and in fine to relate many wonders in a word conuerted all the world to beleeue a man God to beleeue a most obscure and witt-transcending Creede In this Schoole wee doe learne here wee are assured of the truth The manifestation of the Spirit is giuen here To one the word of wisdome 1. Cor. 12. v. 8.9.10 To another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit To another faith in the same Spirit To another the grace of doing cures in one Spirit To another the working of miracles To another prophecie To another discerning of Spiritts To another kinds of tongues To another interpretations of languages Can you giue these things can you teach this Schoole in this sort as the Spirit doth or if you cannot as without infinite blasphemie you may not presume you can why do you endeuour to thrust out the holie Ghost and intrude your selfe into the place whie do you thus oppose the diuine ordinance and openlie wronge the sonne of God Auant Heretiques Iude v. 2. clouds without water borne about with winde raging waues of the Sea foming out your owne confusions enemies to the Church to the Scripture and to God auant Wee need not your instruction wee haue better Masters Without you the Church was planted the world conuerted the truth maintained without you the Schooles are full of Schollers the world of Martyrs heauen of Saincts without you the Church hath stoode and doth stand and so will do still The third Conclusion All Controuersies in matters of Religion are to be decided by the Spirit in the Church THE FOVRTH BOOKE WHEREIN SOME PARTIticular Controuersies are briefly discussed THE FIRST CHAPTER Of the Primacie 1. YOVR generall arguments being dispatched in the former booke I shall finde little danger or difficultie in the encounter of the rest of the disordered route and may iustlie in your owne principles contemne them all as I said before in the like occasion and must repeate it oft For whence is their strength from witte or from authoritie If from witt you must not thinke amisse of me if I preferre the witt and iudgment of many worlds of learned mē before yours which hath declared it selfe vnreasonable hetherto especiallie since all men be lyars to turne the point of your owne weapon vppon your selfe and you no God nor Angell but a man If your argumēts haue their streingth from authoritie either this authoritie is of men and this you haue refused as vncertaine because all mē are lyars and you haue laboured not onelie to disgrace the Church of later tymes and the Fathers in their age but allso to take the Apostles triping and therefore their authoritie moues not you Or this authoritie is of God in holie Scripture where he deliuers according to your distinction two sorts of points the one is of fundamentall points and in these you confesse that the Church neither doth nor can erre and therfore the ensuing controuersie is not about them as for example the Incarnation the passion and the rest which you call fundamentall The other sort of points or textes in the Bible are as you call them not-fundamentall and these you do not hold for certaine which howsoeuer you dissemble the matter is cleere for in your principles there are no meanes from God or man to knowe certainlie that they are indeede parts of Gods word or to knowe which is their true meaning Not the witte of man alone for that may erre especiallie in such an obscure point as whether this text this verse be Gods word and not the word of a man Not the Spirit for that doth assist onelie to fundamentalls you saie and these you say are not of them you must answer this heere before you goe further and knowe that of the certainty of consequences it is the same Moreouer since diuine assistance to the vnderstanding of the Scripture depends vppon Gods promise and since this promise is made vnto the Church to the Apostles and their successors you are first to prooue that you are the Church before any man is to beleeue you haue the assistance ād interprete right for arguments out of Scripture prooue nothing if they misse the sense of God and be grounded in a wronge sense For these and the like reasons I might haue forborne to make further answeare to your exceptions Notwithstanding to giue you content I will descende vnto the particular consideration of the chiefest 2. First therefore to make your waie into the Church there to spoile and aulter
the stile and phrase of speach giues them no satisfaction at all For they so disesteeme it in this respect peculiarlie that in regard of the stile and matter they professe themselues moued to beleeue the contrarie and to put it out of the number of Canonicall bookes If you answere that by the helpe of the Spiritte you discerne it you moue them not for they claime as great an interest as full a participation of the Spirit as your selues aÌ„d therefore you moue not theÌ„ to beleeue as you do But suppose if you will that all Antiquitie stoode on your side what could this preuaile to moue a Lutheran to beleeue the matter or to coÌ„firme your disciples who stagger at your want of proofe what could this auaile I say seeing that it is agreed amoÌ„gst you that the Church that all the Fathers that all men since the Apostles might haue aggreed in an errour 27. According to the grounds of our Religion euerie Catholique can answere easilie that whatsoeuer by the Church of God is receaued for diuine Scripture is infalliblie such because the Church is directed by Gods All-seeing Spirit which can discerne it well And suppose the Catholique were vnlearned aÌ„d that all of you together both LutheraÌ„s and Caluinists should preteÌ„d that in the Bookes there wanted the Spirit of truth aÌ„d seeke to maintaine this with a shewe of oppositioÌ„ either within it selfe or to some other part of Scripture or to reason which thing you doe manie times pretend as Iulian and Porphyrie and others haue done before he would answere you all without difficultie by recourse to the diuine Assistance in the Church which he takes for a principle of Christian Religion beleeued heretofore by the whole Christian world and warranted by God himselfe in cleere termes and would say that the knowledge of the Church thus assisted is more certaine then the contrarie pretense of any aduerse part whatsoeuer and she more able to espie contradiction errour or opposition theÌ„ any other is in regard of the holie Spirit who directeth her and with an infinite vnderstanding lookes earnestlie vppon All. In vertue of which assistance she hath maintained scripture against Heathens and Apostataes and misbeleeuing Iewes aÌ„d Heretiques hetherto and still doth and will doe Further more a Catholike doth not thinke it necessarie that the booke which he beleeueth to be Scripture hath beene euer vniuersallie by the Church esteemed so He knowes it is sufficient if the Catholicke Church hath at any time beleeued it For one of the Principles of our ReligioÌ„ is that the Catholike Church cannot erre at all in matter of faith it cannot erre in any age in any tyme. And this principle hath euer bene beleeued by Catholiks Moreouer that which at any tyme she beleeueth hath beÌ„ infolded in her faith at other times and so virtuallie beleeued euer and by all 29. Now to your opposition Whereas you say that of late onelie some Books haue beene taken into the canon I answere first that such Bookes as your selues doe receaue for canonicall were not all at once vniuersallie receaued in the Church but were acknowledged by degrees S. Hieron de viris illustribus in Paulo Iacobo Petro IoaÌ„ne in Ep. ad Dardan itemque in Prolog So much you knowe by those I haue allreadie named and S. Hierom can tell you more Yet are these allso by your owne confession the word of God and were such in themselues before it was generallie knowne vnto the world As our Sauiour was the naturall Sonne of God and his increated Word before the world did knowe or beleeue him so to be The reason is because mans knowledge is later then the veritie and the more obscure the thing is the longer he is ordinarilie before he can find it out Secondlie it is not so late as you thinke since these Bookes were in the Church esteemed Cit. Bellarm de Verbo Dei l. 1. Vide Baron an 415 August Ep 235. de doct Chr. l. 2. c. 8. Innocent Ep. 3. ad Exuper c. 7. Can. SaÌ„cta Rom d. 15. Ierem. 36. canonicall and diuine though not so generallie as I noted before for you finde them cited for such in the Fathers writings verie oft and in the councell of carthage held in the tyme of Boniface twelue hundred yeares agoe you haue a Catalogue of them all the verie same which you finde now deliuered by the couÌ„cell of Trent sauing onlie that Baruch which the auncient Fathers did acknowledge allso for diuine is after the manner of those tymes comprized with Ieremie whose Secretarie you know he was I adde thirdlie that whereas S. Augustine who subscribed to the foresaid councell doth prescribe a rule for yonge Deuines to finde which Scripture is of greatest authoritie bidding them preferre that which all Churches doe receaue before that which is receaued onlie by some Churches or some part wee now seeing the foresaid canon receaued at length by the whole Church of God and this declared in a Generall Councell must and doe yeauen by S. Augustines rule receaue it all as the word of God and consequentlie of one and the same Authoritie all there being no surer ground of mans faith in such a case then is the Spirit of God in the Church The like I answere them allso who runne to the Iewes canon for the Spirit of the christian Church is no lesse able to discerne a veritie then they were and therefore if the christian Church at anie tyme declare a Booke to be diuine though the Iewes knewe it not wee beleeue it and must For the holie Ghost cannot erre The Iewes knewe not all that God hath taught his Church 30. The second exception is vnreasonable if you consider well what is done and the reason of it All Schollers as you knowe doe noe not addict their studies to the toÌ„gues the Hebrewe is so obscure that fewe doe attaine vnto anie reasonable knowledge of it and none at all in these later times especiallie to the comprehension of the tongue but by helpe of Dictionaries compiled by such as come short of the thing it selfe Of the 〈…〉 or of moderne Iewes not equall to the learned of the tyme wherein the Bookes were first written do endeuour what they can This experience hath taught vs Elias 〈…〉 in Habâ—â—â— Vide Genebrard in Psal 104. Serrar Prol. Bibl. c. 19. q. 6. Aliquoties dixi plurima vocabula esse quorum significatio ipsis etiam Hebraeis ignota est Luth. in Gen. c. 34 it is euident also in the continuation and transfusion of all languages to posteritie and Rabbines themselues doe confesse it In regard therefore that Schollers commonlie vnderstand not Hebrewe it hath euer beene thought conuenieÌ„t the Scripture should be translated into such a language as generallie they doe knowe which is Latine In the primitiue Church this was practised and among you it is allowed allso in so much that your predecessors Luther Caluin Beza Iunius and others
of it which he declares largelie in old Heretiques and the same wee see in the moderne by experience and then concludes that it is therefore verie necessarie in regard of so many windings of errour to direct the line of propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation according to the rule of the ecclesiasticall and Catholique sense 83. This is heere sufficient for Traditions diuine and Apostolicall which the Spiritte of the Church being to leade vnto all truth doth distinguish from such as are false and superstitious and doth easilie defend against all you can say The Scripture hath not one word against them as anie man will easilie see who doth but marke what he doth reade and will not take speaking for writing which the most ignorant with attention can distinguish in them selues being able to doe the one and not the other And the Fathers are cleere as you haue seene requiring euer tradition as indeed it is required for the Scripture and for the sense though the written word be perfect within its owne bouÌ„ds You allso though you loath it neuer so much must needs admitte of it for the Scripture for the number of Canonicall bookes for the pars of them for the sense and for other things you being not able anie other way in the world to answeare anie man who would denie them or to persuade him to beleeue that you haue the word of God or anie part of it Moreouer this doctrine is by generall consent of the Church defined in the Councells of Nice and Trent and hath beene the meanes whereby the Catholique Church hath conserued vntill now the word of God and therefore the contrarie open Heresie being opposite vnto Gods expresse words which I haue put downe in the begining of this chapter and to the beleefe of the old Fathers of generall Councells and of the Church 84 The text all scripture is profitable c. is answeared in the first booke c. 4. It is profitable true but it is not all sufficient It is sufficient too in one kinde for the written word but nor in all kinds not all-sufficient Tradition and diuine Assistance are necessarie too each in their kinde doth concurre Tradition is more generall then writing it deliuers the scripture and the sense of it and can teach also without writing and did before the Scripture was extant This Tradition relieth vppon the diuine Assistance whereof I haue discoursed largelie the third booke and neede not repeate it heere Particular causes in this lower world are sufficient in their kinde a horse to generate a horse a man to generate a man but the effect is not produced without the concurrence of higher causes The Sunne and a man saith the Philosopher produce a man The inferiour and superiour causes are sufficient in their kinds and yet vnles the prime and most vniuersall cause doth concurre nothing is produced You are to prooue that the Scriture is sufficient in all kinds if you will exclude tradition To all your peaching your mouth is profitable and sufficient too in that kinde you need not two mouthes but wthout a tongue you cannot doe it Mouth and tongue are profitable and sufficient in their kindes but you cannot doe it without braines braines and witte are profitable and sufficient in their kinds but all will not serue without learning So that you see the argument is not good it is profitable and to all therefore all-sufficient 85. And thus I am come at last to the end of this part also hauing answeared the chiefest things which you oppose in the decrees of the Church and shewed how the Church representatiue is vniustlie accused of errour The Decrees of generall Councells were beleeued before Caluin had any Schoole and will be when he hath neuer a Scholler In them is the highest TEACHING AVTHORITIE in the world and therefore the Schollers of Iesus Christ must beleeue what they define The sheepe are not to choose their pasture ould wiues and plowmen are not to decide Controuersies in Religion they are not to asceÌ„d the Chaire and expound Scripture to the world No the Pastors must doe this Mat. 28. Act. 20.10.21 Ephes 4. The Apostles aÌ„d their successors were sent to teach God put Bisshops to rule the Church he charged Peeter to feede his flocke The pastors are to teach The sheepe to learne 86. In generall Councells the Pastors are are assembled their Authoritie is vnited there to moue the Whole to teach the Church The Church is to followe their common direction and therefore it belonges to Gods prouidence to assist them defining And the whole Church vniuersallie doth beleeue that such Councells are assisted and cannot erre learned vnlearned people and Pastors all beleeue it and all the Church as I shewed you before cannot erre The Apostles did beleeue it allso and so vnderstood the promise of Iesus Christ Act. 15. Io. 16. when he said that the holie Ghost should teach them all truth God rules and moues the lower world by the higher The heauens vertue doth begette and conserue things heere on earth To the heauens for the regularitie of their Motion he hath addicted an Intelligence Our Sauiour hath so disposed his Church that the Laitie are mooued and gouerned in matters of Religion by the Clergie Rom. 20. Rom. 10. The Pastors begette and conserue in the people faith by preaching the the word of God And to the Pastors for the Regularitie of their Motion he hath left an Assisting Spirit Io. 16. the Holie Ghost the Spirit of Truth The Christian truth is to be learned in the Schoole of Iesê° Christ this Schoole is the the Catholique Church The highest CHAIER in it is a Perfect Oecumenicall COVNCELL No man hath or can with any apparence pretend as will appeare in the examination a fuller participation of the TEACHING POWER then such a Councell 87. To make an end therefore coÌ„sider well what I do saie That definitioÌ„ which the Catholique Church vniuersallie Of Church proposition there is more in the third booke where I haue allso told you how the diuine authoritie aÌ„d the Church authoritie doe moue both in seuerall kinds to the same acte doth take for a sufficâ—eÌ„â— direction of her faith by way of Proposition IS FREE froÌ„ errour Otherwise the Catholique Church vniuersallie might erre which is vnpossible as I haue declared in the third booke Now the Catholique Church vniuersallie doth take the definition of the Councell which SHEE ESTEEMETH Oecumenicall to be a sufficient direction of her faith by waye of Proposition as I haue declared there also And hence it comes that the definition of a Councell ESTEEMED by the Catholique Church Oecumenicall is free froÌ„ errour Will you haue another way without recourse to such a Councell Take this What the Bisshops diffused those I meane who are in the Catholique communioÌ„ do vniformelie teach is true If you should oppose that they are many and that you cannot know the doctrine of them all being diffused I would answere that by their communion with the See Apostolique their doctrine is knowne sufficiently for this purpose aÌ„d their communion is very manifest vnto all Where you must note that it is the exteriour professioÌ„ which I atteÌ„d vnto PropositioÌ„ this is easilie knowne and this as farre as it is vniforme in ALL Bishops in the Catholique communioÌ„ be they many or few so they be all is WARRANTED by the Holie Ghost and by this exteriour proposition or commoÌ„ doctrine whatsoeuer els any of them thinke secretly in their mindes I am to be directed Ephes 4. Mat. 28.10.16 He Christ gaue Pastors that wee be not wauering Teach all Nations and behold I am with you The spirit of truth shall teach you all truth If you dispute againe meddle not with points not yet agreed vppon among vs. Talke not of things controuerted in our Schooles at this daie The proposition which you oppose if you will oppose me must be a Catholique proposition agreed on generally by the Church Other things I can dispute in our owne Schooles and with such as know them better then you doe