Animas reâ—…runt Pet. Matt. Loc. Com. Class 3. Ca. 15. Nu 4. they utterly deny any Resurrection of the Body after Death So with them that Article of the Creed is gone Now then if any man will guide his Faith by this Rule of A. C. The Consent of dissenting Parties or the Confession of the Adverse Part hee must denie the Resurrection of the Body from the Grave to Glory and believe none but that of the Soule from sinne to Grace which the Adversaries Confesse and in which the Dissenting Parties agree Punct 3. Thirdly in the great Dispute of all others about the Vnity of the Godhead All dissenting parties Iew Turke and Christian Among Christians Orthodoxe and Anti-Trinitarian of old And in these later times Orthodoxe and Socinian that Horrid and mighty monster of all Heresies agree in this That there is but one God And I hope it is as necessary to believe one God our Father as one Church our Mother Now will A. C. say here 't is safest believing as the dissenting Parties agree or as the Adverse Parties Confesse namely That there is but one God and so deny the Trinity and therewith the Sonne of God the Saviour of the world Fourthly in a Point as Fundamentall in the Faith as Punct 4. this Namely whether Christ be true and very God For which very Point most of the a Hebr. 11. 37. Cyrillus Alexandrinut malè audivit quod Ammonium Martyrem appellavit quem constitit temeritatis poenas dedisse non Necessitate negandi Christi in tormentis esse mortuum Socr. Hist. Eccl. L. 7. c. 14. Martyrs in the Primitive Church laid down their lives The dissenting Parties here were the Orthodoxe Believers who affirme Hee is both God and Man for so our Creed teaches us And all those Hereticks which affirme Christ to bee Man but denie him to bee God as the b Optatus L. 4. Cont. Parmen Arrians and c Tertul. L. de Prascrip c. 48. Carpocratians and d Tertul. Ibid. Cerinthus and e Tertul. L. de Carne Christi c. 14. Hebion with others and at this day the f Si ad Iesu Christi respicias Essentiam at que Naturam non nisi Hominem eum fuisse constantèr affirmaâ—…us Volkelius Lib. 3. de Religione Christianâ cap. 1. Socinians These dissenting Parties agree fully and clearely That Christ is Man Well then Dare A. C. sticke to his Rule here and say 't is safest for a Christian in this great Point of Faith to governe his Beliefe by the Consent of these dissenting Parties or the Confession and acknowledgement of the Adverse Partie and so settle his Beliefe that Christ is a meere Man and not God I hope hee dares not So then this Rule To Resolve a mans Faith into that in which the Dissenting Parties agree or which the Adverse Part confesses is as often false as true And false in as Great if not Greater Matters then those in which it is true And where 't is true A. C. and his fellowes dare not governe themselves by it the Church of Rome condemning those things which that Rule proves And yet while they talke of Certainty nay of Infallibility lesse will not serve their turnes they are driven to make use of such poore shifts as these which have no certainty at all of Truth in them but inferre falshood and Truth alike And yet for this also men will be so weake or so wilfull as to be seduced by them I told you * §. 35. Nu. 2. fine before That the force of the preceding Argument lies upon two things The one expressed and that 's past the other upon the Bye which comes now to be handled And that is your continuall poore Out-cry against us That we cannot be saved because we are out of the Church Sure if I thought I were out I would get in as fast as I could For we confesse as well as you That a Extra Ecclesiam veminem Vivificat Spiritus Sanctus S. Aug. Epist. 5 0. ad finem Field L. 1. de Eccles. c. 13. Vna est Fidelium Vniversalis Ecclesia extra quam nullus salvatur Conc Lateran Can. 1. And yet even there there is no mention of the Romane Church Out of the Catholike Church of Christ there is no Salvation But what do you meane by Out of the Church Sure out of the b And so doth A. C. too Out of the Catholiâ—… Romane Church there is no Possibility of Salvaâ—…on A C. p. 65. Romane Church Why but the Romane Church and the Church of England are but two distinct members of that Catholike Church which is spread over the face of the earth Therefore Rome is not the House where the Church dwels but Rome it selfe as well as other Particular Churches dwels in this great Universall House unlesse you will shut up the Church in Rome as the Donatists did in Africke I come a little lower Rome and oâ—…her Nationall Churches are in this Vniversall Catholike House as so many * And Daughter Sion was God's owne phrase of old of the Church Isa. 1. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hyppol Orat. de Consum mundi Et omnis Ecclesia Virgo appellata est S. Aug. Tr. 13. in S. Ioh. Daughters to whom under Christ the care of the Houshold is committed by God the Father and the Catholike Church the Mother of all Christians Rome as an Elder Sister †For Christ was to be preached to all Nations but that Preaching was to begin at Ierusalem S. Luc. 24. 47. according to the Prophesie Mic. 4. 2. And the Disciples were first called Christians at Antioch Act. 11. 26. And therefore there was a Church there before ever S. Peter came thence to settle One at Rome Nor is it an Opinion destitute either of Authority or Probability That the Faith of Christ was preached and the Sacraments administred here in England before any settlement of a Church in Rome For S. Gildas the Ancientest monument we have and whom the Romanists themselves reverence sayes expresly That the Religion of Christ was received in Britannie Tempore ut scimus summo Tiberii Caesaris c. In the later time of Tiberius Caesar Gildas deexcid Brit. whereas S. Peter kept in Iewrie long after Tiberius his death Therefore the first Conversion of this Iland to the Faith was not by S. Peter Nor from Rome which was not then a Church Against this Rich. Broughton in his Ecclesiasticall History of Great Britaine Centur. 1. C. 8. §. 4. sayes expresly That the Protestants do freely acknowledge that this Clause of the time of Tiberius tempore summo Tiberii Caesaris is wanting in other Copies of that holy Writer and namely in that which was set forth by Pol. Virgil and others Whereas first these words are expresse in a most faire and ancient Manuscript of Gildas to be seene in S t. Rob. Cotton's Study if any doubt it Secondly these words are as expresse in
how farre every man must believe as it relates to the possibility or impossibility of his salvation in every particular And that which the Church cannot teach men cannot learne of her She can teach the Foundation and men were happy if they would learne it and the Church more happy would she teach nothing but that as necessary to Salvation for certainly nothing but that is Necessary Now then whereas after all this the Iesuite tels us that F. Upon this and the precedent Conferences the Lady rested in judgement fully satisfied as she told a confident Friend of the Truth of the Romane Churches faith Yet upon frailty and feare to offend the King she yeelded to goe to Church for which she was after very sorry as soâ—… of her friends can testifie B. This is all personall And how that Honourable § 39 Lady was then setled in Conscience how in Iudgement I know not This I think is made cleare enough That that which you said in this and the precedent Conferences could settle neither unlesse in some that were setled or setling before As little do I know what she told any confident friend of her approoving the Roman cause No more whether it were frailty or feare or other Motive that made her yeeld to go to Church nor how sorry shee was for it nor who can testifie that sorrow This I am sure of if shee repent and God forgive her other sinnes she will more easily be able to Answer for her comming to Church then for her leaving of the Church of England and following the superstitions and errours which the Romane Church hath added in Point of Faith and the Worship of God For the Lady was then living when I answered thus Now whereas I said the Lady would farre more easily be able to answer for her comming to Church A. C. p. 73. then for her leaving the Church of England To this A. C. excepts and sayes That I neither prove nor can prove that it is lawfull for one perswaded especially as the Lady was to goe to the Protestant Church There 's a great deale of cunning and as much malice in this passage but I shall easily pluck the sting out of the Tayle of this Waspe And first I have proved it already through this whole Discourse and therefore can prove it That the Church of England is an Orthodoxe Church And therefore with the same labour it is proved that men may lawfully goe unto it and communicate with it for so a man not onely may but ought to doe with an Orthodoxe Church And a Romanist may communicate with the Church of England without any Offence in the Nature of the thing thereby incurred But if his Conscience through mis-information checke at it he should do well in that Case rather to informe his Conscience then for sake any Orthodoxe Church whatsoever Secondly A. C. tels me plainly That I cannot prove that a man so perswaded as the Lady was may goe to the Protestant Church that is That a Romane Catholike may not goe to the Protestant Church Why I never went about to proove that a Romane Catholike beiug and continuing such might against his Conscience goe to the Protestant Church For these words A man perswaded as the Lady is are A. C s. words they are not mine Mine are not simply that the Lady might or that she might not but Comparative they are That she might more easily answer to God for comming to then for going from the Church of England And that is every way most true For in this doubtfull time of hers when upon my Reasons given shee went againe to Church when yet soone after as you say at least shee was sorrie for it I say at this time she was in heart and resolution a Romane Catholike or she was not If she were not as it seemes by her doubting shee was not then fully resolved then my speech is most true that she might more easily answer God for comming to Service in the Church of England then for leaving it For a Protestant shee had beene and for ought I knew at the end of this Conference so she was and then 't was no sin in it selfe to come to an Orthodoxe Church nor no sinne against her Conscience she continuing a Protestant for ought which then appeared to mee But if she then were a Romane Catholike as the Jesuite and A. C. seeme confident she was yet my speech is true too For then she might more easily answer God for comming to the Church of England which is Orthodoxe and leaving the Church of Rome which is superstitious then by leaving the Church of England communicate with all the superstitions of Rome Now the cunning and the malignity of A. C. lies in this he would faine have the world think that I am so Indifferent in Religion as that I did maintaine the Lady being conscientiously perswaded of the Truth of the Romish Doctrine might yet against both her conscience and against open and avowed profession come to the Protestant Church Neverthelesse in hope his cunning malice would not be discovered against this his owne sense that is and not mine he brings diverse Reasons As first 't is not lawfull for one affected as that Lady was that is for one that is resolved of the Truth of the Romane Church to goe to the Church of England there and in that manner to serve and worship God Because saith A. C. that were to halt on both sides to serve two Masters and to dissemble with God and the world Truly I say the A. C. p. 73. same thing with him And that therefore neither may a Protestant that is resolved in Conscience that the profession of the true Faith is in the Church of England goe to the Romish Church there and in that manner to serve and worship God Neither need I give other Answer because A. C. urges this against his owne fiction not my assertion Yet since he will so doe I shall give a particular Answer to each of them And to this first Reason of his I say thus That to Believe Religion after one sort and to practise it after another and that in the maine points of worship the Sacrament and Invocation is to halt on both sides to serve two Masters and to dissemble with God and the world And other then this I never taught nor ever said that which might inferre the Contrary But A. C. give me leave to tell you your fellow Iesuite * Quintò quaeritur An ubi Catholici unà cum Haereticis versantur licitum sit Catholico adiâ—… Templa ad quae Haeretici conveniunt eorum interesse Conventibus c. Respondeo Sirei Naturam spectemus non est per se malum sed suà naturâ indifferens c. Ec postea Si Princeps haeresi laboret jubeat subditos Catholicos sub poena Mortis vel Confiscationis bonorum frequentare templa Haereticoâ—… quid tum faciendum Respondeo si jubeat
tantum ut omnes Mandato suo obediant licitum est Catholicis facere Quià praestant solum Obedientia officium Sin jubeat ut eo Symbolo fimul Religionem Haereticam profiteantur parere non debent Quares iterum An liceat Catholico obedire modò publicè asseveret se id efficere solùm ut Principi suo obediat non ut sectam hareticam profiteatur I Respondeo Quidam id licere arbitrantur ne bona ejus publicentâ—…r vel Vita eripiatur Quod sanè probabiliter dici videtur Azorius Instit. Moral p. 1. L 8. c. 27 p. 1299. Edit Paris 1616. Azorius affirmes this in expresse termes And what doe you think can he prove it Nay not Azorius onely but other Priests and Iesuites here in England either teach some of their Proselytes or els some of them learn it without teaching That though they be perswaded as this Lady was that is though they be Romane Catholikes yet either to gaine honour or save their purse they may goe to the Protestant Church just as the Iesuite here sayes The Lady did out of frailty and feare to offend the King Therefore I pray A. C. if this be grosse dissimulation both with God and the world speake to your fellowes to leave perswading or practising of it and leave men in the profession of Religion to bee as they seeme or to seeme and appeare as they are Let 's have no Maske worne here A. C s. second Reason why one so perswaded as that Lady was might not goe to the Protestant Church is Because that were outwardly A. C. p. 73. to professe a Religion in Conscience knowne to bee false To this I answer first that if this Reason be true it concernes all men as well as those that be perswaded as the Lady was For no man may outwardly professe a Religion in conscience knowne to bee false For with the bea rt man believeth to righteousnesse and with the mouth hee confesseth to salvation Rom. 10. Rom. 10. 10. Now to his owne salvation no man can confesse a knowne false Religion Secondly if the Religion of the Protestants be in conscience a knowne false Religion then the Romanists Religion is so too for their Religion is the same Nor do the Church of Rome and the Protestants set up a different Religion for the Christian Religion is the same to both but they differ in the same Religion And the difference is in certaine grosse corruptions to the very endangering of salvation which each side sayes the other is guilty of Thirdly the Reason given is most untrue for it may appeare by all the former Discourse to any Indifferent Reader that Religion as it is professed in the Church of England is nearest of any Church now in being to the Primiâ—…ive Church And therefore not a Religion knowne to be false And this I both doe and can prove were not the deafenesse of the Aspe upon the eares of seduced 〈◊〉 58. 4. Christians in all humane and divided parties whatsoever After these Reasons thus given by him A. C. tels me That I neither doe nor can prove any superstition A. C. p. 73. or errour to be in the Romane * I would A. C. would call it the Romane Perswasion as some understanding Romanists do Religion What none at all Now truly I would to God from my heart this were true and that the Church of Rome were so happy and the whole Catholike Church thereby blessed with Truth and Peace For I am confident such Truth as that would soone either Command Peace or †For though I spare their Names yet can I not agree in Iudgement with him that sayes in Print God be praised for the disagreement in Religion Nor in Devotion with him that prayed in the Pulpit That God would teare the Rent of Religion wider But of S. Greg. Naz. Opinion I am 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Non studemus paci in detrimentum verae Doctrinae ut facilitatis Mansuetudinis famam colligamus Et rursum Pacem colimus legitimè pâ—…gnantes c. Orat. 32. confound Peace-Breakers But is there no Superstition in Adoration of Images None in Invocation of Saints None in Adoration of the Sacrament Is there no errour in breaking Christs own Institution of the Sacrament by giving it but in one kinde None about Purgatorie About Common Prayer in an unknowne tongue none These and many more are in the Romane Religion if you will needs call it so And 't is no hard worke to prove every of these to be Errour or Superstition or both But if A. C. think so meanely of me that though this be no hard worke in it selfe yet that I such is my weakenesse cannot prove it I shall leave him to enjoy that opinion of me or what ever else he shall be pleased to entertaine and am farre better content with this his opinion of my weaknesse then with that which followes of my pride for he adds That I cannot A. C. p. 73. prove any Errour or Superstition to be in the Romane Religion but by presuming with intolerable pride to make my selfe or some of my fellowes to be Iudge of Controversies and by taking Authority to censure all to be Superstition and Errour too which sutes not with my fancy although it be generally held or practised by the Vniversall Church Which saith he in S. Augustine's judgement is most 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 What not prove any Superstition any Errâ—…ur at Rome but by Pride and that 〈◊〉 Truly I would to God A. C. saw my heart and all the Pride that lodges therein But wherein doth this Pride appeare that he censures me so deeply Why first in this That I cannot prove any Errour or Superstition to be in the Romane Religion unlesse I make my selfe or 〈◊〉 of my fellowes Iudge of Controversies Indeed if I tooke this upon me I were guilty of great Pride But A C. knowes well that before in this Conference which he undertakes to Answer I am so farre from making my selfe or any of my fellowes Iudge of Controversies that a §. 33. §. 26. Nu. 1. 11. I absolutely make a lawfull and free Generall Councell Iudge of Controversies by and according to the Scriptures And this I learned from b Praeponitur Scripturae c. S. Aug. L. 2. de Bapt. cont Donat c. 3. S. Augustine with this That ever the Scripture is to have the prerogative above the Councell Nay A. C. should remember here that c §. 32. Nu. 5. A. C. p. 63. he himselfe taxes me for giving too much power to a Generall Councell and binding men to a strict Obedience to it even in Case of Errour And therefore sure most innocent I am of the intolerable pride which he is pleased to charge upon me and he of all men most unfit to charge it Secondly A. C. will have my pride appeare in this A. C. p. 73. that I take Authority to censure all for
And this was caused partly by my owne Backwardnesse to deale with these men whom I have ever observed to be great Pretenders for Truth and Unity but yet such as will admit neither unlesse They and their Faction may prevaile in all As if no Reformation had beene necessary And partly because there were about the same time three Conferences held with Fisher. Of these this was the Third And could not therefore conveniently come abroad into the world till the two former were ready to leade the way which till that time they were not And this is in part the Reason also why this Tract crept into the end of a larger Worke. For since that Worke contained in a manner the substance of all that passed in the two former Conferences And that this Third in divers points concurred with them and depended on them I could not thinke it Substantive enough to stand alone But besides this Affinity betweene the Conferences I was willing to have it passe as silently as it might at the end of another Worke and so perhaps little to be looked after because I could not hold it worthy nor can I yet of that Great Duty and Service which I owe to my Deare Mother the Church of England There is a cause also why it lookes now abroad againe with Alteration and Addition And 't is fit I should give your Majesty an Account of that too This Tract was first printed in the yeare 1624. And in the yeare 1626. another Jesuite or the same under the name of A. C. printed a Relation of this Conference and therein tooke Exceptions to some Particulars and endeavoured to Confute some Things deliver'd therein by me Now being in yeares and unwilling to dye in the Jesuites debt I have in this Second Edition done as much for him and somewhat more For he did but skip up and downe and labour to pick a hole here and there where he thought he might fasten and where it was too hard for him let it alone But I have gone thorough with him And I hope given him a full Confutation or at least such a Bone to gnaw as may shake his teeth if he looke not to it And of my Addition to this Discourse this is the Cause But of my Alteration of some things in it this A. C. his Curiosity to winnow me made me in a more curious manner fall to sifting of my selfe and that which had formerly past my Penne. And though I blesse God for it I found no cause to alter anything that belonged either to the Substance or Course of the Conference Yet somewhat I did finde which needed better and cleerer expression And that I have altered well knowing I must expect Curious Observers on all hands Now Why this Additionall Answer to the Relation of A. C. came no sooner forth hath a Cause too and I shall truly represent it A. C. his Relation of the Conference was set out 1626. I knew not of it in some yeares after For it was printed among divers other things of like nature either by M. Fisher himselfe or his friend A. C. When I saw it I read it over carefully and found myselfe not a little wrong'd in it but the Church of England and indeed the Cause of Religion much more I was before this time by Your Majesties Great Grace and undeserved favour made Deane of Your Majesties Chappell Royall and a Counsellor of State and hereby as the Occasions of those times were made too much a Stranger to my Bookes Yet for all my Busie Imployments it was still in my Thoughts to give A. C. an Answer But then I fell into a most dangerous Feaver And though it pleased God beyond all hope to restore mee to health yet long I was before I recover'd such strength as might enable mee to undertake such a Service And since that time how I have beene detained and in a manner forced upon other many various and Great Occasions your Majesty knowes best And how of late I have beene used by the Scandalous and Scurrilous Pennes of some bitter men whom I heartily beseech God to forgive the world knowes Little Leasure and lesse Encouragement given me to Answer a Iesuite or set upon other Services while I am under the Prophets affliction Psal. Psal. 50. 19 20 50. betweene the Mouth that speakes wickednesse and the tongue that sets forth deceite and slander mee as thicke as if I were not their owne Mothers Sonne In the midst of these Libellous out-cries against me some Divines of great Note and Worth in the Church came to mee One by One and no One knowing of the Others Comming as to mee they protested and perswaded with me to Reprint this Conference in my owne Name This they thought would vindicate my Reputation were it generally knowne to be mine I Confesse I looked round about these Men and their Motion And at last my Thoughts working much upon themselves I began to perswade my selfe that I had beene too long diverted from this necessary Worke. And that perhaps there might be In voce hominum Tuba Dei in the still voice of men the Loud Trumpet of God which sounds many wayes sometimes to the eares and sometimes to the hearts of men and by meanes which they thinke not of And as * S. Aug. Serm. 63. De Diversis c. 10. Hee speakes of Christ disputing in the Temple with the Elders of the Iewes And they heard Christ the Essentiall Word of the Father with admiration to astonishment yetbeleeved him not S. Luk. 2. 47. And the Word theâ—… spake to them by a meanes they thought not of namely per Filium Dei in pucro by the Sonne of God himselfe under the Vaile of our humane nature S. Augustine speakes A Word of God there is Quod nunquam tacet sed non semper auditur which though it be never silent yet is not alwayes heard That it is never silent is his great Mercy and that it is not alwayes heard is not the least of our Misery Vpon this Motion I tooke time to deliberate And had scarce time for that much lesse for the Worke. Yet at last to every of these men I gave this Answer That M. Fisher or A. C. for him had beene busie with my former Discourse and that I would never reprint that unlesse I might gaine time enough to Answer that which A. C. had charged a fresh both upon mee and the Cause While my Thoughts were thus at worke Your Majesty fell upon the same Thing and was graciously pleased not to Command but to VVish me to reprint this Conference and in mine own Name And this openly at the Councel-Table in Michaelmas-Terme 1637. I did not hold it fit to deny having in all the Course of my service obayed your Majesties Honourable and Just Motions as Commands But Craved leave to shew what little leasure I had to doe it and what Inconveniences might attend upon it When this did not serve to excuse
What Successe this Great Distemper caused by the Collision of two such Factions may have I know not I cannot Prophesie This I know That the use which Wise men should make of other mens falles is not to fall with them And the use which Pious and Religious men should make of these great Flawes in Christianity is not to Joyne with them that make them nor to helpe to dislocate those maine Bones in the Body which being once put out of Ioynt will not easily be set againe And though I cannot Prophesie yet I feare That Atheisme and Irreligion gather strength while the Truth is thus weakned by an Vnworthy way of Contending for it And while they thus Contend neither part Consider that they are in a way to induce upon themselves and others that Contrary Extreame which they seeme most both to feare and oppose Besides This I have ever Observed That many Rigid Professors have turn'd Roman Catholikes and in that Turne have beene more Iesuited then any other And such Romanists as have chang'd from them have for the most part quite leaped over the Meane and beene as Rigid the other way as Extremity it selfe And this if there be not both Grace and VVisdome to governe it is a very Naturall Motion For a Man is apt to thinke he can never runne farre enough from that which he once begins to hate And doth not Consider therewhile That where Religion Corrupted is the thing he hates a Fallacy may easily be put upon him For he ought to hate the Corruption which depraves Religion and to runne from it but from no part of Religion it selfe which he ought to Love and Reverence ought hee to depart And this I have Observed farther That no One thing hath made Conscientious men more wavering in their owne mindes or more apt and easie to be drawne aside from the sincerity of Religion professed in the Church of England then the Want of Uniforme and Decent Order in too many Churches of the Kingdome And the Romanists have beene apt to say The Houses of God could not be suffer'd to lye so Nastily as in some places they have done were the True worship of God observed in them Or did the People thinke that such it were 'T is true the Inward VVorship of the Heart is the Great Service of God and no Service acceptable without it But the Externall worship of God in his Church is the Great VVitnesse to the World that Our heart stands right in that Service of God Take this away or bring it into Contempt and what Light is there left to shine before men that they may see our Devotion and glorifie our Father which is in Heaven And to deale clearely with Your Majesty These Thoughts are they and no other which have made me labour so much as I have done for Decency and an Orderly settlement of the Externall Worship of God in the Church For of that which is Inward there can be no Witnesse among men nor no Example for men Now no Externall Action in the world can be Uniforme without some Ceremonies And these in Religion the Ancienter they bee the better so they may fit Time and Place Too many Over-burden the Service of God And too few leave it naked And scarce any Thing hath hurt Religion more in these broken Times then an Opinion in too many men That because Rome had thrust some Vnnecessary and many Superstitious Ceremonies upon the Church therefore the Reformation must have none at all Not considering therewhile That Ceremonies are the Hedge that fence the Substance of Religion from all the Indignities which Prophanenesse and Sacriledge too Commonly put upon it And a Great Weaknesse it is not to see the strength which Ceremonies Things weake enough in themselves God knowes adde even to Religion it selfe But a farre greater to see it and yet to Cry Them downe all and without Choyce by which their most hated Adversaries climb'd up and could not crie up themselves and their cause as they doe but by them And Divines of all the rest might learne and teach this VVisdome if they would since they see all other Professions which helpe to beare downe their Ceremonies keepe up their owne therewhile and that to the highest I have beene too bold to detaine Your Majesty so long But my Griefe to see Christendome bleeding in Dissention and which is worse triumphing in her owne Blood and most angry with them that would study her Peace hath thus transported me For truely it Cannot but grieve any man that hath Bowells to see All men seeking but as S. Paul foretold Phil. 2. Their owne things and not the things which are Phil. 2. 21. Jesus Christs Sua Their owne surely For the Gospell of Christ hath nothing to doe with them And to see Religion so much so Zealously pretended and called upon made but the Stalking-Horse to shoote at other Fowle upon which their Ayme is set In the meane time as if all were Truth and Holinesse it selfe no Salvation must be possible did it lye at their Mercy but in the Communion of the One and in the Conventicles of the Other As if either of these now were as the Donatists of old reputed themselves the only men in whom Christ at his comming to Judgment should finde Faith No saith * S. Aug. Epist. 48. S. Augustine and so say I with him Da veniam non Credimus Pardon us I pray we cannot beleeve it The Catholike Church of Christ is neither Rome nor a Conventicle Out of that there 's no Salvation I easily Confesse it But out of Rome there is and out of a Conventicle too Salvation is not shut up into such a narrow Conclave In this ensuing Discourse therefore I have endeavour'd to lay open those wider-Gates of the Catholike Church confined to no Age Time or Place Nor knowing any Bounds but That Faith which was once and but once for all deliver'd to the Saints S. Jude 3. And in my pursuite of this way I have searched after and deliver'd S. Iod. 3. with a single heart that Truth which I professe In the publishing whereof I have obeyed Your Majesty discharg'd my Duty to my power to the Church of England * 1 S. Pet. 3. 15. Given account of the Hope that is in me And so testified to the world that Faith in which I have lived and by God's blessing and favour purpose to dye But till Death shall most unfainedly remaine Your Majesties most faithfull SUBJECT and most Humble and Obliged SERVANT W. CANT A RELATION Of the Conference betweene WILLIAM LAWD Then L. Bishop of S. Davids now Lord Arch-Bishop of CANTERBURY AND M. Fisher the Jesuite by the command of KING JAMES Of ever Blessed Memorie With an Answer to such Ecceptions as A. C. takes against it F The Occasion of this Conference was B THe Occasion of this Third § 1 Conference you should know fufficiently You were an Actor in it as well as in two
mee I humbly submitted to that which I hope was Gods Motion in Your Majesties And having thus layd all that Concernes this Discourse before your Gracious and most Sacred Majesty I most humbly present you with the Booke it selfe which as I heartily pray You to protect so doe I wholly submit it to the Church of England with my Prayers for Her Prosperity and my Wishes that I were able to doe Her better Service I have thus acquainted Your Majesty with all Occasions which both formerly and now againe have led this Tract into the light In all which I am a faithfull Relater of all Passages but am not very well satisfied who is now my Adversary M. Fisher was at the Conference Since that I finde A. C. at the print And whether These be two or but One Jesuite I know not since scarce One amongst them goes under One Name But for my owne part and the Error is not great if I mistake I thinke they are One and that One M. Fisher. That which induces me to thinke so is First the Great Inwardnesse of A. C. with M. Fisher which is so great as may well be thought to neighbour upon Identity Secondly the Stile of A. C. is so like M. Fishers that I doubt it was but one and the same hand that moov'd the penne Thirdly A. C. sayes expresly That the Jesuite himselfe made the Relation of the first A. C. p. 67. Conference with D. VVhite And in the Title Page of the Worke That Relation as well as This is said to be made by A. C. and published by VV. I. Therefore A. C. and the Iesuite are one and the same person or els one of these places hath no Truth in it Now if it be M. Fisher himselfe under the Name of A. C. then what needs these * Preface to the Relation of this Conference by A. C. words The Jesuite could be content to let passe the Chaplaines Censure as one of his Ordinary persecutions for the Catholicke Faith but A. C. thought it necessary for the Common Cause to defend the sincerity and Truth of his Relation and the Truth of some of the Chiefe Heads contained in it In which Speech give me leave to observe to your Sacred Majesty how grievously you suffer him and his Fellowes to he persecuted for the Catholicke Faith when your poore Subject and Servant cannot set out a true Copie of a Conference held with the Jesuite jussu Superiorum but by and by the man is persecuted God forbid I should ever offer to perswade a Persecution in any kind or practise it in the least For to my remembrance I have not given him or his so much as course Language But on the other side God forbid too That your Majesty should let both Lawes and Discipline sleepe for feare of the Name of Persecution and in the meane time let M. Fisher and his Fellowes Angle in all parts of your Dominions for your Subjects If in your Grace and Goodnesse you will spare their Persons Yet I humbly beseech You see to it That they be not suffer'd to lay either their Weeles or baite their Hookes or cast their Nets in every streame lest that Tentation grow both too generall and too strong I know they have many Devices to worke their Ends But if they will needs be fishing let them use none but * And S. Aug. is very full against the use of 〈◊〉 retiâ—… unlawfull Nets And saith the Fishermen theselves have greatest cause to take heed of them S. Aug. L. de Fide Oper. c. 17. Lawfull Netts Let 's have no dissolving of Oathes of Allegiance No deposing no killing of Kings No blowing up of States to settle Quod Volumus that which faine they would have in the Church with many other Nets as dangerous as these For if their Profession of Religion weâ—…e as goood as they pretend it is if they cannot Compasse it by Good Meanes I am sure they ought not to atttempt it by Bad. For if they will doe evill that good may come thereof the Apostle tells me Their Damnation's just Rom. 3. Rom. 3. 8. Now as I would humbly Beseech Your Majesty to keepe a serious Watch upon these Fisher-men which pretend S. Peter but fish not with His Net So would I not have You neglect another sort of Anglers in a Shallower Water For they have some ill Nets too And if they may spread them when and where they will God knowes what may become of it These have not so strong a Backe abroad as the Romanists have but that 's no Argument to suffer them to encrease They may grow to equall Strength with Number And Factious People at home of what Sect or fond Opinion soever they be are not to be neglected Partly because they are so Neare And 't is ever a dangerous Fire that begins in the Bed-straw And partly because all those Domesticke Evills which threaten a Rent in Church or State are with far more safety prevented by VVisdome then punished by Justice And would men consider it right they are far more beholding to that man that keepes them from falling then to him that takes them up though it be to set the Arme or the Leg that 's broken in the Fall In this Discourse I have no aime to displease any nor any hope to please all If I can helpe on to Truth in the Church and the Peace of the Church together I shall be glad be it in any measure Nor shall I spare to speake Necessary Truth out of too much Love of Peace Nor thrust on Vnnecessary Truth to the Breach of that Peace which once broken is not so easily soder'd againe And if for Necessary Truths sake onely any man will be offended nay take nay snatch at that offence which is not given I know no fence for that 'T is Truth and I must tell it 'T is the Gospell and I must preach it 1 Cor. 9. And far safer it is in this 1 Cor. 9. 16. Case to beare Anger from men then a VVoe from God And where the Foundations of Faith are shaken be it by Superstition or Prophanenesse he that puts not to his hand as firmely as he Can to support them is too wary and hath more Care of himselfe then of the Cause of Christ. And 't is a VVarinesse that brings more danger in the end then it shunnes For the Angell of the Lord issued out a Curse against the Inhabitants of Meroz because they came not to helpe the Lord to helpe the Lord against the mighty Iudg. 5. I know 't is a Great ease to let every Thing be as it will and every Iudg. 5. 23. man beleeve and doe as he list But whether Governors in State or Church doe their duty therewhile is easily seene since this is an effect of no King in Israel Iudg. 17. Iudg. 17. 6. The Church of Christ upon Earth may bee compared to a Hive of Bees and that can bee
by it are founded upon it And yet hence it cannot follow That the thing that is so founded is Fundamentall in the Faith For things may be d Mos fundatissimus S. Aug. Ep. 28. founded upon Humane Authority and be very certaine yet not Fundamentall in the Faith Nor yet can it follow This thing is founded therefore every thing determined by the Church is founded Again that which followes That those things are not to be opposed which are made firme by full Authority of the Church cannot conclude they are therefore Fundamentall in the Faith For full Church Authority alwayes the time that included the Holy Apostles being past by and not comprehended in it is but Church Authority and Church Authority when it is at full sea is not simply e Staple Rebect cont 4. q. 3. A. 1. Divine therefore the Sentence of it not fundamentall in the Faith And yet no erring Disputer may be endured to shake the foundation which the Church in Councell layes But plaine Scripture with evident sense or a full Demonstrative Argument must have Roome where a wrangling and erring Disputer may not be allowed it And ther 's f Quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur ut in dubium venire non possit praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in Catholicâ teneor Ita si aliquid apertissimum in Evangelio S. Aug. contra Fund c. 4. neither of these but may Convince the Definition of the Councell if it be ill founded And the Articles of the faith may easily proove it is not Fundamentall if indeed and verily it be not so And I have read some body that sayes is it not you That things are fundamentall in the Faith two wayes One in their Matter such as are all things which be so in themselves The other in the Manner such as are all things that the Church hath Defined and determined to be of Faith And that so some things that are de modo of the manner of being arc of Faith But in plaine truth this is no more then if you should say some things are Fundamentall in the faith and some are not For wrangle while you will you shall never be able to proove that any thing which is but de modo a consideration of the manner of being only can possibly be Fundamentall in the faith And since you make such a Foundation of this Place I will a little view the Mortar with which it is laid by you It is a venture but I shall finde it a Ezek. 13. 11. untempered Your Assertion is All poynts defined by the Church are Fundamentall Your proofe this Place Because that is not to be shaken which is setled by b Plenâ Ecclesiae Authoritate full Authority of the Church Then it seemes your meaning is that this poynt there spoken of The remission of Originall sinne in Baptisme of Infants was defined when S. Augustine wrote this by a full Sentence of a Generall Councell First if you say it was c 1. 2. de Author Concil c. 5. §. A solis particularibus Bellarmine will tell you it is false and that the Pelagian Heresie was never condemned in an Oecumenicall Councell but only in Nationalls But Bellarmine is deceived For while the Pelagians stood out impudently against Nationall Councels some of them defended Nestorius which gave occasion to the first d Can. 1. 4. Ephesine Councell to Excommunicate and depose them And yet this will not serve your turne for this Place For S. Augustine was then dead and therefore could not meane the Sentence of that Councell in this place Secondly if you say it was not then Defined in an Oecumenicall Synode Plena authoritas Ecclesiae the full Authority of the Church there mentioned doth not stand properly for the Decree of an Oecumenicall Councell but for some Nationall as this was condemned in a * Concil Milevit Can. 2 Nationall Councell And then the full Authority of the Church here is no more then the full Authority of this Church of †Nay if your owne Capellus be true De Appell Eccl Afric c. 2. n. 5. It was â—…ut a Provinciall of Numidia not a Plenary of Africk Africk And I hope that Authority doth not make all Points defined by it to be Fundamentall You will say yes if that Councell be confirmed by the Pope And then I must ever wonder why S. Augustine should say The full Authority of the Church and not bestow one word upon the Pope by whose Authority only that Councell as all other have their fulnesse of Authority in your Iudgement An inexpiable Omission if this Doctrine concerning the Pope were true But here A. C. steps in againe to helpe the Iesuite and he tells us over and over againe That all A. C. p. 45. points made firme by full Authority of the Church are Fundamentall so firme he will have them and therefore fundamentall But I must tell him That first 't is one thing in Nature and Religion too to be firme and another thing to be fundamentall These two are not Convertible T is true that every thing that is fundamentall is firme But it doth not follow that every thing that is firme is fundamentall For many a Superstructure is exceeding firme being fast and close joyned to a sure foundation which yet no man will grant is fundamentall Besides what soever is fundamentall in the faith is fundamentall to the Church which is one by the vnity a Almain in 3. Sent. Dis. 25. q. 2. A Fide enim unà Ecclesia dicitur una of faith Therefore if every thing Defined by the Church be fundamentall in the faith then the Churches Definition is the Churches Foundation And so upon the matter the Church can lay her owne foundation and then the Church must be in absolute and perfect Being before so much as her Foundation is laide Now this is so absurd for any man of learning to say that by and by after A. C. is content to affirm not only that the prima Credibilia the Articles of Faith but all which so pertaines to Supernaturall Divine and Infallible Christian Faith as that thereby Christ doth dwell in our hearts c. is the Foundation of the Church under Christ the Prime Foundation And here he 's out againe For first all which pertaines to Supernaturall Divine and Infallible Christian Faith is not by and by b Aliquid pertinet ad Fidem dupliciter Uno modo directè sicut ea quae nobis sunt principalitèr divinitùs tradita ut Deum esse Trinum c. Et circa haec opinari falsum hoc ipso inducit Haeresin c. Alio modo indirectè Ex quibus consequitur aliquid contrarium Fidei c. Et in his aliquis potest falsum opinari absque periculo Haeresis donec Sequela illa ei innotescat c. Tho. p. 1. q. 32. A. 4. C. There are things Necessary to the Faith and
writ downe my words in fresh memory and upon speciall notice taken of the Passage and that I did say either Iâ—…dem or aequipollentibus verbis either in these or equivalent words That the Protestants did make the Râ—…nt or Division from the Romane Church What did the Iesuite set downe my words in fresh memory and upon speciall notice taken and were they so few as these The Protestants did make the Schisme and yet was his memory so short that he cannot tell whether I uttered this iisdem or aequipollentibus verbis Well I would A. C. and his Fellowes would leave this Art of theirs and in Conferences which * A. C. p. 57. they are so ready to call for impose no more upon other men then they utter And you may observe too that after all this full Assertion that I spake this iisdem or aequipollentibus verbis A. C. concludes thus The Iesuite tooke speciall notice in fresh memory and is sure he related at A. C. p. 55. least in sense just as it was uttâ—…red What 's this At least in sense jâ—…st as it was uttered Do not these two Enterfeire and shew the Iesuite to be upon his shuffling pace For if it were just as it was uttered then it was in the very forme of words too not in sense onely And if it were but At least in sense then when A. C. hath made the most of it it was not just as 't was uttered Besides at least in sense doth not tell us in whose sense it was For if A. C. meane the Iesuite's sense of it he may make what sense he pleases of his owne words but he must impose no sense of his upon my words But as he must leave my words to my selfe so when my words are uttered or written he must leave their sense either to me or to that genuine Construction which an Ingenuous Reader can make of them And what my words of Grant were I have before expressed and their sense too Not with my selfe That 's the next For A. C. sayes 't is truth and that the world knowes it that the A. C. p. 56. Protestants did depart from the Church of Rome and got the name of Protestants by protesting against it No A. C. by your leave this is not truth neither and therefore I had reason to be angry with my selfe had I granted it For first the Protestants did not depart For departure is voluntary so was not theirs I say not theirs taking their whole Body and Cause together For that some among them were peevish and some ignorantly zealous is neither to be doubted nor is there Danger in confessing it Your Body is not so perfect I wot well but that many amongst you are as pettish and as ignorantly zealous as any of Ours You must not suffer for these nor We for those nor should the Church of Christ for either Next the Protestants did not get that Name by Protesting against the Church of Rome but by Protesting and that when nothing else would serve †Conventus suit Ordinum Imperii Spirae Ibi Decretum factum est ut Edictum Wormatiense observaretur contra Novatores sic appellare placuit ut omnia in integrum restituantur sic nulla omnino Reformatio Contra hoc Edictum solennis fuit Protestatio Aprilis 16. An. Ch. 1529. Et hinc ortum pervulgatum illud Protestantium nomen Se. Calvis Chron. ad An. 1529. Thâ—…s Protestation therefore was not simply against the Romane Church but against the Edict which was for the restoring of all things to their former estate without any Râ—…formation against her Errours Superstitions Do you but remove them from the Church of Rome and our Protestation is ended and the Separation too Nor is Protestation it selfe such an unheard of thing in the very heart of Religion For the Sacraments both of the Old and New Testament are called by your owne Schoole Visible Signes protesting the Faith Now if the Sacraments be Protestantia Signes Protesting why may not men also and without all offence be called Protestants since by receiving the true Sacraments and by refusing them which are corrupted they doe but Protest the sincerity of their Faith against that Doctrinall Corruption which hath invaded the great Sacrament of the Eucharist and other Parts of Religion Especially since they are men a Quibus homo fidem suam protestaretur Tho. p. 3. q. 61. A. 3. 4. C. which must protest their Faith by these visible Signes and Sacraments But A. C. goes on and will needs have it that the Protestants were the Cause of the Schisme For A. C. p. 56. saith he though the Church of Rome did thrust them from her by Excommunication yet they had first divided themselves by obstinate holding and teaching opinions contrary to the Romane Faith and Practice of the Church which to do S. Bernard thinks is Pride and S. Augustine Madnesse So then in his Opinion First Excommunication on their Part was not the Prime Cause of this Division but the holding and teaching of contrary Opinions Why but then in my Opinion That holding and teaching was not the Prime Cause neither but the Corruptions and Superstitions of Rome which forced many men to hold and teach the contrary So the Prime Cause was theirs still Secondly A. C s. words are very considerable For he charges the Protestants to be the Authours of the Schisme for obstinate holding and teaching Contrary Opinions To what I pray Why to the b I know Bellarm. quotes S. Ierome Sciro Romanam Fidem c. suprà §. 3. Nu. 9. But there S. Ierome doth not call it Fidem Romanam as if Fides Romana and Fides Catholica were convertible but he speakes of it in the Concrete Romana Fides i. Romanorum Fides qua laudata suit ab Apostolo c. Ro. 1. 8. S. Hieron Apol. 3. cont Ruffin That is that Faith which was then at Rome when S. Paul commended it But the Apostles commending of it in the Romanes at one time passes no deed of Assurance that it shall continue worthy of Commendations among the Romans through all tâ—…mes Romane Faith To the Romane Faith It was wont to be the Christian Faith to which contrary Opinions were so dangerous to the Maintainers But all 's Romane now with A. C. and the Iesuite And then to countenance the Businesse S. Bernard and S. Augustine are brought in whereas neither of them speak of the Romane and S. Bernard perhaps neither of the Catholike nor the Romane but of a Particular Church or Congregation Or if he speake of the Catholike of the Romane certainly he doth not His words are Quae major superbia c. What greater pride then that one man should preferre his judgement before the whole Congregation of all the Christian Churches in the world So A. C. as out of Saint Bernard †Quae major superbia quà m ut unus homo toti Congregationi judicium
est aut quaelibet alia Ecclesiae communis Generalis Hispaniâ—… Galliciae Synodus celebretur c. Conc. Tolet. 4. Can. 3. They Decree That if there happen a Cause of Faith to be setled a Generall that is a Nationall Synod of all Spaine and Gallicia shall be held thereon And this in the yeare 643. Where you see it was then Catholike Doctrine in all Spaine that a Nationall Synod might be a Competent Iudge in a Cause of Faith And I would faine know what Article of the Faith doth more concerne all Christians in generall then that of Filioque And yet the Church of Rome her selfe made that Addition to the Creed without a Generall Councell as I have shewed e §. 24. Nu. 2. already And if this were practised so often and in so many places why may not a Nationall Councell of the Church of England doe the like as Shee did For Shee cast off the Pope's Vsurpation and as much as in her lay restored the King to his right That appeares by a a The Institution of a Christian man printed An. 1534. Booke subscribed by the Bishops in Henry the eight's time And by the b In Synodo Londinâ—…nsi Sess. 8. Die Veneris 29. Ianuarii An. 1562. Records in the Arch-bishop's Office orderly kept and to be seene In the Reformation which came after our c And so in the Reformation under Hezekiah 2. Chron. 29 under Iosia 4 Reg. 23. And in the time of Reccarcdus King of Spaine the Reformation there proceeded thus Quùm gloriosissimus Princeps omnes Regiminâ—… sui Pontifices in unum convenire mandâ—…sset c. Conâ—…il Tolet. 3. Can. 1. Cùm convemssemus Sacerdotes Domini apud urbem Toletanâ—… ut Râ—…giis imperiis atque jussis commoniti c. Concil Tolet. 4. in princ apud Caraâ—…zam And boâ—…h these Synods did treat of Matters of Faith Princes had their parts and the Clergy theirs And to these Two principally the power and direction for Reformation belongs That our Princes had their parts is manifest by their Calling together of the Bishops and others of the Clergie to consider of that which might seeme worthy Reformation And the Clergie did their part For being thus called together by Regall Power they met in the Nationall Synod of sixty two And the Articles there agreed on were afterwards confirmed by Acts of State and the Royall Assent In this Synod the Positive Truths which are delivered are more then the Polemicks So that a meere Calumnie it is That we professe only a Negative Religion True it is and we must thanke Rome for it our Confession must needs containe some Negatives For we cannot but deny that Images are to be adored Nor can we admit Maimed Sacraments Nor grant Prayers in an unknowne tongue And in a corrupt time or place 't is as necessary in Religion to deny falshood as to assert and vindicate Truth Indeed this latter can hardly be well and sufficiently done but by the former an Affirmative Verity being ever included in the Negative to a Falshood As for any Errour which might fall into this as any other Reformation if any such can be found then I say 't is most true Reformation especially in Cases of Religion is so difficult a worke and subject to so many Pretensions that 't is almost impossible but the Reformers should step too farre or fall too short in some smaller things or other which in regard of the farre greater benefit comming by the Reformation it selfe may well be passed over and borne withall But if there have beene any wilfull and grosse errours not so much in Opinion as in Fact †Quisquis occasione hujus Legis quam Regesterra Christo servientes ad emendandam vestram impietatem promulgaverunt res proprias vestras cupide appetit displicet nobis Quisquis denique ipsas res pauperum vel Baâ—…licas Congregationum c. non per Iustitiam sed per Avaritiamtenet displicet nobis S. Aug. Epist. 48. versus finem Sacriledge too often pretending to reforme Superstition that 's the Crime of the Reformers not of the Reformation and they are long since gone to God to answer it to whom I leave them But now before I go off from this Point I must put you in remembrance too That I spake at that time and so must all that will speak of that Exigent of the Generall Church as it was for the most part forced under the Government of the Romane Sea And this you understand well enough For in your very next words you call it the Romane Church Now I make no doubt but that as the Vniversall Catholike Church would have reform'd her selfe had she beene in all parts freed of the Romane Yoke so while she was for the most in these Westerne parts under that yoke the Church of Rome was if not the Onely yet the Chiefe Hindrance of Reformation And then in this sense it is more then cleare That if the Romane Church will neither Reform nor suffer Reformation it is lawfull for any other Particular Church to Reform it selfe so long as it doth it peaceably and orderly and keeps it selfe to the Foundation and free from * And this a Particular Church may doe but not a Schisme For a Schisme can never be peaceable nor orderly and seldome free from Sacriledge Out of which respects it may be as well as for the grâ—…evousnesse of the Crime S. Aug. cals it Sacrilegium Schismatis L. 1 de Bapt. cont Donat. c. 8. For usually they go together Sacriledge F. I asked Quo Iudice did this appeare to bee so VVhich Question I asked as not thinking it equity that Protestants in their own Cause should be Accusers VVitnesses and Iudges of the Romane Church B You doe well to tell the reason now why you § 25 asked this Question For you did not discover it at the Conference if you had you might then have received your Answer It is most true No man in common equity ought to be suffered to be Accuser Witnesse and Iudge in his owne Cause But is there not as little reason and equity too that any man that is to be accused should be the Accused and yet VVitnesse and Iudge in his owne Cause If the first may hold no man shall be Innocent and if the last none will be Nocent And what doe we here with in their owne Cause against the Romane Church Why Is it not your owne too against the Protestant Church And if it be a Cause common to both as certaine it is then neither Part alone may be Iudge If neither alone may judge then either they must be judged by a * §. 21. Nu. 9. Third which stands indifferent to both and that is the Scripture or if there be a jealousie or Doubt of the sense of the Scripture they must either both repaire to the Exposition of the Primitive Church and submit to that or both call and submit to a Generall
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c S. Auâ—… â—…pist 119 c. 6. S. Augustine tels us That the Militant Church is often in Scripture called the Moone both for the many Changes it hath and for its obscurity in many times of its peregrination And hee tels us too That if we will understand this place of Scripture in a Spirituall Sense a Intelligimus spiritualiter Ecclesiam c. Et hic â—…uis est Sol nisi Sol lustitsâ—… c. S. Aug. in Psal. 103. Our Saviour Christ is the Sun and the Militant Church as being full of changes in her estate the Moone But now it must bee a Triumphant Church here Militant no longer The Pope must be the Sun and the Emperor but the Moone And least Innocents owne power should not be able to make good his Decretall b â—…p â—…op L. dicto E clesiaâ—…us c. 145. Gasper Schioppius doth not onely avow the Allusion or Interpretation but is pleased to expresse many Circumstances in which hee would faine make the world believe the Resemblance holds And lest any man should not know how much the Pope is made greater then the Emperour by this Comparison the c Igitur cùm terra sit septies major Lunâ Sol autem octies major terra restat ergo ut Fontificalis dignitas quadragesies septics sit major Realidignitate Gloss. in Decret praedict Where first the Glosse is out in his Latine Hee might have said Quadragies for Quadragesies is no word next he is out in his Arithmetick For eight times seven makes not forty seven but fifty sixe And then he is much to blame for drawing downe the Pope's power from fifty six to 47. And lastly this Allusion hath no ground of Truth at all For the Emperour being Solo Deo minor Tertul. ad Scap. cannot be a Moone to any other Sun Glosse furnishes us with that too and tels us that by this it appeares that since the Earth is seven times greater then the Moone and the Sun eight times greater then the Earth it must needs follow that the Pope's power is forty seven times greater then the Emperour 's I like him well he will make odds enough But what doth Innocent the third give no Reason of this his Decretall Yes And it is saith he d Sed illa Potestas quae praeest diebus i. e. in spiritualibus major est quae verò Carnaâ—…ibus miâ—…or Inn cent 3. ubi supra because the Sun which rules in the day that is in Spirituall things is greater then the Moone which rules but in the night and in carnall things But is it possible that Innocentius the third being 〈◊〉 wise and so able as e â—…t post ejus mortem nihil eorum quae in hac vita egerit laudaverit aut inprobaverit immâ—…um sit Platina in vita 〈◊〉 that nothing which he did or commended or disproved in all his life should after his death be thought fit to bee changed could thinke that such an Allusion of Spirituall things to the Day which the Sun governes and Worldly Businesse to the Night which the Moone governes should carie waight enough with it to depresse Imperiall power lower then God hath made it Out of doubt he could not For he well knew that Omnis Anima every soule was to be Rom. 13. 1. subject to the Higher Power Rom. 13. And the †Patres veteres praecipâ—… Aug. Epist. 54. Apostolum interpretantur de Potestate seculari tantum loqui quod ipse Textus subindicat c. Salmer on Disput. 4. in Rom. 13. §. Porrò per Potestatem Higher Power there mentioned is the Temporall And the * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Omnibus ista imperantur Sacerdotibus Monachis c. Et postea Etiamsi Apostolus sis fi Evangelista si Propheta sive quisquis tandem fueris S. Chrysost. Hom. 23. in Rom. Sive est Sacerdos sive Antistes c. Theodoret in Rom. 13. Si omnis Anima vestra Quis vos excipit ab Universitate c. Ipsi sunt qui vobis dicere solent servate vestrae Sedis honorem c. Sed Christus aliter Iussâ—… Gâ—…ssit c. S. B. r. Epist. 42. ad Henricum Senonensem Archiepiscopum Et Theophilact in Rom. 13. Where it is very observable that Theophilact lived in the time of Pope Gregory the seventh And S. Bernard after it and yet this Truth obtained then And this was about the yeare 1130. Ancient Fathers come in with a full consent That Omnis Animâ—… every soule comprehends there all without any Exception All Spirituall men even to the Highest Bishop and in spirituall Causes too so the Foundations of Faith and Good Manners bee not shaken And where they are shaken there ought to bee Prayer and Patience there ought not to be Opposition by force Nay hee knew well that a An fortè de Religione fas non est ut dicat Imperator vel quos miserit Imperator cur ergo ad Imperatorem vestri venâ—…re Legati cur enim fecerunt Causae suae Iudicem non secuturi quod ille judicaret c. S. Aug. L. 1. cont Epist. Parmen c. 9. Et quaestio fuit au pertineret ad Imperatorem advâ—… eos aliquid statuere qui prava in Religione sectantur Ibid Nor can this be said to be usurpation in the Emperor Nam S. August alibi sic Ad Imperatoris curâ—…m de quâ rationem Deo redditurus est Res â—…lla maximè pâ—…rtinebat S. Aug. Epist. 162. Epist. 50. Quis mente sobrius Regibus dicat Nolite cuâ—…are in Regno vestro à quo teneatur vet oppugnetur Ecclesia Domini vestri c. Antiqui 〈◊〉 rectè dixit Magistratus est custos legis silicet primae secundae Tabulae quod ad disciplinam attinet Confessio Saxonica §. 23. Gerardus To. 6. Locorum c. 6. § 5. Membro 1. probat ex Deut. 17. 18. Emperors and Kings are Custodes utriusque Tabulae They to whom the custody and preservation of both Tables of the Law for worship to God and duty to man are committed That a Booke of the Law was by Gods owne Command in Moses his time to bee given the King b Deut. 17. 18 Deut. 17. That the Kings under that Law but still according to it did proceed to Necessary Reformations in Church Businesses and therein Commanded the very Priests themselves as appeares in the Acts of * â—…ron 29. 4. Hezechiah and †4. Râ—… 23. 2. Iosiah who yet were never Censured to this day for usurping the High Priests Office Nay hee knew full well That the greatest Emperors for the Churches Honour Theodosius the Elder and Iustinian and Charles the Great and divers other did not only meddle now and then but did inact Lawes to the great Settlement and Increase of Religion in their severall times But then if this could not be the Reason why Innocentius made this strange
plus satis indultum esse it à ut ad summam ador ationem qua vel à Paganis suis simulacris exhiberi consuevit c. Cassand Consult Art 21. C. De Imaginibus Where he names diverse of your owne as namely Durantus Mimatensis Episcopus Iohn Billet Gerson Durand Holkot and Biel rejecting the Opinion of Thomas and other superstitions concerning Images Ibid. Cassander who lived and died in your Communion sayes it expresly That in this present Case of the Adoration of Images you came full home to the Superstition of the Heathen And secondly for Reason I have I think too much to give that the Moderne Church of Rome is growne too like to Paganisme in this Point For the e Non quod Credatur inesse aliqua in iis Divinitas veluti olim fiebat à Gentibuâ—… Conc. Trid. Sess. 25. Decret de Invocat Councell of Trent it selfe confesses That to believe there 's any Divinity in Images is to do as the Gentiles did by their Idols And though in some words afterthe Fathers of that Councell seeme very religiously carefull that all f Et rudibus periculosi Erroris Occasionem c. Ibid. Occasion of dangerous Errour be prevented yet the Doctrine it selfe is so full of danger that it workes strongly both upon the Learned and Unlearned to the scandall of Religion and the perverting of Truth For the Unlearned first how it workes upon them by whole Countries together you may see by what happened in Asturia Cantabria Galetia no small parts of Spaine For there the People so * Et adeâ—… Gens affeâ—…a est truncis corrosis deformibus Imaginibus ut me teste quotres Episcopi decentiores ponere jubent veteres suas petant plorantes c Hieton 〈◊〉 summa p. 3. c. 3. He tels me that was an Eye witnesse and that since the Councell of Trent are so addicted to their worme eaten and deformed Images that when the Bishops commanded new and handsommer Images to be set up in their roomes the poore people cried for their old would not looke up to their new as if they did not represent the same thing And though he say this is by little and little amended yet I believe there 's very little Amendment And it workes upon the Learned too more then it should For it wrought so farre upon Lamas himselfe who bemoaned the former Passage as that he delivers this Doctrine †Imagines Christi S Matris ejus Sanctorum non sunt venerandae acsi in ipsis Imaginibus esset Divinitas secundùm quod sunt Materia Arte essigiata non secundùm quod repraesentant Christum Sanctos c. Sic enim adorare vel petere aliquid ab iis esset Idololaâ—… tria Lamas Ibid. That the Images of Christ the Blessed Virgin and the Saints are not to be worshipped as if there were any Divinity in the Images as they are materiall things made by Art but only as they represent Christ and the Saints For els it were Idolatry So then belike according to the Divinity of this Casuist a man may worship Images and aske of them and put his trust in them as they Represent Christ and the Saints For so there is Divinity in them though not as Things yet as Representers And what I pray did or could any Pagan Priest say more then this For the Proposition resolved is this The Images of Christ and the Saints as they represent their Exemplars have Deity or Divinity in them And now I pray A. C. doe you be Iudge whether this Proposition do not teach Idolatry And whether the Moderne Church of Rome be not growne too like to Paganisme in this Point For my owne part I heartily wish it were not And that men of Learning would not straine their wits to spoile the Truth and rent the Peace of the Church of Christ by such dangerous such superstitious vanities For better they are not but they may be worse Nay these and their like have given so great a Scandall among us to some ignorant though I presume well meaning men that they are afraid to testifie their Duty to God even in Quis ferat populum in Templum irruentem câ—…ù in haraÌ„ Sues Certe non obsunt populo Ceremoniae sed prosunt si modus in câ—… servetur Cavcaâ—… nè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 loco habeantur hoc est ne praecipuam pictatem in illis collocemus Rhen. annot in Tertul. de Cor. Mil. his owne House by any Outward Gesture at all In so much that those very Ceremonies which by the Iudgement of Godly and Learned men have now long continued in the practice of this Church suffer hard measure for the Romish Superstitions sake But I will conclude this Point with the saying of B. Rhenanus Who could indure the people sayes hee rushing into the Church like Swine into a Stye Doubtlesse Ceremonies doe not hurt the people but profit them so there be a meane kept and the By be not put for the Maine that is so we place not the principall part of our Piety in them The Conference growes to an end and I must meet it againe ere we part For you say F. After this we all rising the Lady asked the B. whether she might be saved in the Romane Faith He answered She might B. What Not one †Cave nè dum vis alium not are Culpae ipse noteris Calumniae S. Hâ—…er L. 3. advers Pelagianos Answer perfectly related § 34 My Answer to this was Generall for the ignorant that could not discerne the Errours of that Church so they held the Foundation and conformed themselves to a Religious life But why do you not speake out what I added in this Particular That it must needs go harder with the Lady even in Point of Salvation because she had beene brought to understand very much for one of her Condition in these Controverted Causes of Religion And a Person that comes to know much had need carefully bethinke himselfe that he oppose not knowne Truth against the Church that made him a Christian. For Salvation may be in the Church of Rome and yet they not finde it that make surest of it Here A. C. is as confident as A. C. p. 64. the Iesuite himselfe That I said expresly That the Lady might be saved in the Romane Faith Truly 't is too long since now for me to speake any more then I have already upon my memory But this I am sure of That whatsoever I said of her were it never so particular yet was it under the Conditions before expressed F. I bad her marke that B. This Answer I am sure troubles not § 35 you But it seemes you would faine have it lay a load of envie upon mee that you professe you bad the Lady so carefully marke that Well you bad her Marke that For what For some great matter or for some new Not for some New sure For the
Protestants have ever beene ready for Truth and in Charity to grant as much as might be And therefore from the beginning many †Nos fatemur sub Papaetu plurimum esse boni imò omne bonum Christianum at que etiam illinc ad nos devenisse c. Luther contra Anabaptist citante Bellarmine L. 4. de Notis Eccles. c. 16. §. penult Et Field appendice par 3. c. 2. Et Ios. Hall Bishop of Exeter L. Of the Old Religion c. t. Many holding Christ the Foundation aright and groaning under the burden of Popish trash c. by a generall repentance and assured Faith in their Saviour did finde favour with the Lord. D. Geo. Abbot late Archbishop of Cant. Answer to Hill ad Ration 1. §. 30. For my part I dare not deny the possibility of their Salvation who have beene the chiefest Instruments of ours c. Hooker in his Discourse of Iustificat §. 17. In former times a man might hold the generall Doctrine of those Churches wherein our Fathers lived and be saved And yet since the Councell of Trent some are found in it in such degree of Orthodoxy as we may well hope of their Salvation Field L. 3. Eccl. c. 47. The Latine or Westerne Church subject to the Romish Tyranny was a true Church in which a saving profession of the Truth of Christ was found Ios. Hall B. of Exeter L. Of the old Religion fine in his Advertisement to the Reader p. 202. Non panci retinuerunt Christum Fundamentum c. Mornaeus Tract de Ecclesia c. 9. fine Inter sordes istas ista quae summe cum periculo expectetur salus non ipsorum Additamentis sed iis quae nobiscum habent communia Fundamentis est attribuenda Io. Prideaux Lectione 9. fine Papa aliquam adhuc Religionis formam relinquit spem vitae aternae non tollit c. Calv. Instruct. advers Libertinos c. 4. Leà rned men granted this So that you needed not have put such a serious Mark that upon my speech as if none before had or none but I would speake it And if your Marke that were not for some New matter was it for some Great Yes sure it was For what greater then Salvation But then I pray marke this too That might be saved grants but a a Here A. C. gets another snatch and tels us That to grant a Possibility of Salvation in the Romane Church is the free Confession of an Adversary and therfore is of force against us and extorted by Truth But to say that salvation is more securely and easily to be had in the Protestant Faith that 's but their partiall Opinion in their own behalfe and of no force especially with Romane Catholikes I easily believe this latter part That this as A. C. and the rest use the matter with their Proselytes shall be of little or no force with Romane Catholikes But it will behoove them that it bee of force For let any indifferent man weigh the Necessary Requisites to Salvation and he shall finde this no partiall Opinion but very plaine and reall Verity That the Protestant living according to his belief is upon the safer way to Heaven And as for my Confession let them enforce it as farre as they can against me so they observe my Limitations which if they do A. C. and his fellowes will of all the rest have but little comfort in such a limited Possibility Possibility no sure or safe way to Salvation The Possibility I think cannot be denied the Ignorants especially because they hold the Foundation and cannot survey the Building And the Foundation can deceive no man that rests upon it But a secure way they cannot goe that hold with such corruptions when they know them Now whether it be wisdome in such a Point as Salvation is to forsake a Church in the which the Ground of Salvation is firme to follow a Church in which it is but possible one may be saved but very probable he may do worse if he look not well to the Foundation judge ye I am sure b L. 1. De Bapt. cont Don. c. 3. Gravitèr peccarent in rebus ad salutem animae pertinentibus c. â—…o solo quod certis incerta praeponerent S. Augustine thought it was not and judged it a great sinne in Point of Salvation for a man to preferre incerta certis uncertainties and naked possibilities before an evident and certaine Course And c Propter incertitudinem propriae Iustitiae periculuminanis gloriâ—… tutissimuÌ„ est fiduciam totam in solá Dei misericordiâ benignitate reponere Bellar. L. 5. ae Iustif. c. 7. §. Sit tertia Propositio Bellarmine is of Opinion and that in the Point of Iustification That in regard of the uncertainty of our own Righteousnesse and of the danger of vaine glory tutissimum est 't is safest to repose our whole trust in the Mercy and Goodnesse of God And surely if there be One safer way then another as he Confesses there is he is no wise man that in a matter of so great moment will not betake himselfe to the safest way And therefore even you your selves in the Point of Condignity of Merit though you write it and preach it boysterously to the People yet you are content to dye renouncing the condignity of all your owne Merits and trust to Christs Now surely if you will not venture to dye as you live live and beleeve in time as you meane to die And one thing more because you bid Marke this let me remember to tell you for the benefit of others Vpon this very Point That we acknowledge an honest ignorant Papist may be saved you and your like worke upon the advantage of our Charity and your owne want of it to abuse the weake For thus I am told you worke upon them You see the Protestants at least many of them confesse there may be salvation in our Church We absolutely deny there is salvation in theirs Therefore it is safer to come to Ours then to stay in theirs to be where almost all grant Salvation then where the greater part of the world deny it This Argument is very prevailing with men that cannot weigh it and with women especially that are put in feare by * And this peece of Cunning to affright the weake was in use in Iustin Martyrs time Quosdam scimus c. ad Iracundiam suam Evangelium pâ—…ntes c. quibus si potestas ea obtigisset ut â—…los Gehenna traderent Orbem quoque Vniversum consumpsissent Iust. Martyr Epist. ad Zenam Serinam And here 't is ad Iracundiam suam Ecclesiam pertrahentes c. violent though causelesse denying Heaven unto them And some of your party since this have set out a Booke called Charity mistaken But beside the Answer fully given to it this alone is sufficient to Confute it First that in this our Charity what ever yours be is not mistaken unlesse the
damus c. S Cypr. L. 2. Epist. 1. Concordia quae est Charitatis effectus est â—…nio Voluntatum non Opinionum Tho. 2. 2 9. 37. Ar. 1. c. Dissensio de Minimis de Opinionibus repugnat quidem paci perfectae in quá plenè veritaes cognoscetur omnis appetitus complebitur Non tamen repugnat paci imperfectae qualis habetur in via Tho. 2. 2a q. 29. A. 3. ad 2. Charity too entire if they be so well minded I confesse it were heartily to be wished that in these things also men might be all of one mind and one judgement to which the Apostle exhorts †1 Cor. 1. 10 Phil 2 2. 1. Cor. 1. But this cannot be hoped for till the Church be Triumphant over all humane frailties which here hang thick and close about her The want both of Vnity and Peace proceeding too often even where Religion is pretended from Men and their Humours rather then from Things and Errours to be found in them And so A. C. tels me That it is not therfore as I would perswade the fault of Councels Definitions but the pride of A. C. p. 72. such as will preferre and not submit their private Iudgements that lost and continues the losse of peace and unity of the Church and the want of certainty in that one afore-said soule-saving Faith Once againe I am bold to tell A. C. that there is no want of certainty most infallible certainty of That one soule-saving Faith And if for other opinions which flutter about it there be a difference a dangerous difference as at this day there is yet necessary it is not that therfore or for prevention thereof there should be such a Certainty an Infallible Certainty in these things For he understood himselfe well that said Oportet esse Haereses 1. Cor. 11. There must there will be Heresies And wheresoever that Necessity lies 't is out of doubt 1. Cor. 11. 19. enough to prove That Christ never left such an Infallible Assurance as is able to prevent them Or such a Mastering Power in his Church as is able to over-awe them but they come with their Oportet about them and they rise and spring in all Ages very strangely But in particular for that which first caused and now continues the losse of Vnity in the Church of Christ as I make no doubt but that the Pride of men is one Cause so yet can I not think that Pride is the adaequate and sole Cause thereof But in part Pride caused it and Pride on all sides Pride in some that would not at first nor will not since submit their private judgements where with good Conscience they may and ought And Pride in others that would not first nor will not yet mend manifest great and dangerous errours which with all good Conscience they ought to do But 't is not Pride not to submit to known and grosse Errours And the Definitions of some Councels perhaps the Lateran Constance and Trent have beene greater and more urgent Causes of breach of Unity then the Pride of men hath been which yet I shall never excuse where'ere it is How farre this one soule-saving Faith extends A. C. tels me I have confessed it not a worke for my pen But A. C. p. 72. he sayes it is to be learned from that One Holy Catholike Apostolike alwayes Visible and Infallible Roman Church of which the Lady once doubting is now fully satisfied c. Indeed though A. C. sets this down with some scorn which I can easily passe over 't is true that thus I a §. 38. Nu. 1. said There is a Latitude in Faith especially in reference to different mens salvation But to set a Bound to this and strictly to define it Iust thus farre you must Believe in every particular or incurre damnation is no work for my pen. Thus I said and thus I say still For though the Foundation be one and the same in all yet a b §. 38. Nu. 8. Latitude there is and a large one too when you come to Consider not the Foundation common to all but things necessary to many particular mens Salvation For to whom soever God hath given more of him shall more be required c S. Luc. 12. 48. 〈◊〉 secundùm proportionem suam secundùm differentiam Scientiae vel Ignorantiae c. Et postea Extenditur doctrina hac non solum ad Donum Scientia c. Cajetan in S. Luc. 12. Ecce quomodo Scientia aggravat Culpam Unde Gregorius c. Gorran in S. Luc. 12. Therefore many things may be necessary for a Knowing mans Salvation which are not so for a poore Ignorant soule Si quis de Antecossoribus nostris vel ignorantèr vel simplicitèr non hoc observavit tenuit quod nos Dominus facere exemplo magisterio suo docuit potest simplicitati ejus de Indulgentiá Domini Venia concedi Nobis verò non poterit ignosci qui nunc à Domino admoniti instructi sumus S. Cyprian L. 2. Epist. 3. S. Luc. 12. as well in Beliefe as in Obedience and Performance And the gifts of God both ordinary and extraordinary to particular men are so various as that for my part I hold it impossible for the ablest pen that is to expresse it And in this respect I d § 38. Nu. 1. said it with humility and Reason That to set these bounds was no worke for my pen. Nor will I ever take upon me to expresse that Tenet or Opinion the deniall of the Foundation onely excepted which may shut any Christian the meanest out of heaven And A. C. I believe you know very well to what a narrow scantling some a Articuli Fidei sunt sicut Principia per se nota Et sicut quadam corum in aliis implicitè continentur ita omnes Articuli implicitè continentur in aliquibus primis Credibilibus c. secundùm illud ad Heb. 11. Tho. 2 2a q. 1. A. 10. c. In absoluto nobis facili est aternitas Iesum suscitatum à mortuis per Deum credere ipsum esse Dominum consiteri c. S. Hilar. L. 10. de Trin. ad finem Learned of your owne side bring the very Foundation it selfe rather then they will loose any that lay hold on Christ the Sonne of God and Redeemer of the world And as Christ Epitomizes the whole Law of Obedience into these two great Commandements The Love of God and our Neighbour S. Mat. 22. So the Apostle epitomizes the whole S. Matth. 22. 37. Law of Beliefe into these two great Assents That God is And that He is a Rewarder of them that seeke hun Heb. 11. That seeke him in Christ. And S. Peter Heb. 11. 6. was full of the Holy Ghost when he exprest it That there is no salvation to them that seeke it in or by another Name Act. 4. Act. 4. 12. But since this is no
Errour and Superstition which sutes not with my own fancy But how can this possibly be since I submit my judgement in all humility to the Scripture interpreted by the Primitive Church and upon new and necessary doubts to the judgement of a lawfull and free Generall Councell And this I do from my very heart and do abhorre in matters of Religion that my own or any private mans fancy should take any place and least of all against things generally held or practised by the Vniversall Church which to oppose in such things is certainly as d S. Aug. Epist. â—…8 〈◊〉 5. S. Augustine cals it Insolentissimae insaniae an Attempt of most insolent madnesse But those things which the Church of England charges upon the Romane Party to be superstitious and erroneous are not held or practised in or by the universall Church generally either for time or place And now I would have A. C. consider how justly all this may be turned upon himselfe For he hath nothing to pretend that there are not grosse Superstitions and Errours in the Romane Perswasion unlesse by intolerable pride he will make himselfe and his Party Iudge of Controversies as in effect he doth for he will be judged by none but the Pope and a Councell of his ordering or unlesse he will take Authority to free from Superstition and Errour whatsoever sutes with his fancy though it be even Superstition it selfe and run crosse to what hath been generally held in the Catholike Church of Christ Yea though to do so be in S. Augustine's judgement most insolent madnesse And A. C. spake in this most properly when he called it taking of Authority For the Bishop and Church of Rome have in this particular of judging Controversies indeed taken that Authority to themselves which neither Christ nor his Church Catholike did ever give them Here the Conference ended with this Conclusion And as I hope God hath given that Lady mercy so I heartily pray that he will be pleased to give all of you a Light of his Truth and a Love to it that you may no longer be made Instruments of the Pope's boundlesse Ambition and this most unchristian * §. 33. Nu 6. braine-sick device That in all Controversies of the Faith he is Infallible and that by way of Inspiration and Prophecie in the Conclusion which he gives To the due Consideration of which and God's mercy in Christ I leave you To this Conclusion of the Conference between me and the Iesuite A. C. sayes not much But that which he doth say is either the selfe same which he hath said already or els is quite mistaken in the businesse That which he hath said already is this That in matters A. C. p. 73. of Faith we are to submit our judgements to such Doctors and Pastors as by Visible Continuall Succession without change brought the Faith downe from Christ and his Apostles to these our dayes and shall so carrie it to the end of the world And that this Succession is not found in any other Church differing in Doctrine from the Romane Church Now to this I have given a full Answer a §. 57. Nu. 3 4. already and therefore will not trouble the Reader with needlesse and troublesome repetition Then he brings certaine places of Scripture to prove the Pope's Infallibility But to all these places I have likewise answered b §. 25. Nu. 5. before And therefore A. C. needed not to repeat them againe as if they had been unanswerable One Place of Scripture onely A. C. had not urged before either for proofe of this Continued Visible Succession or for the Pope's Infallibility Nor doth A. C. distinctly A. C. p. 73. set down by which of the two hee will prove it The Place is c Epheâ—… 4. 11. Ephes. 4. Christ ascending gave some to be Apostles some Prophets some Euangelists some Pastors and Teachers c. for the edification of the Church Now if he do mean to prove the Pope's Infallibility by this place in his Pastorall Iudgement Truly I doe not see how this can possibly be Collected thence d Pontificatus Summus disertè positus est ab Apostolo in illis verbis Eph. 4. 11. in illis clarioribus 1. Cor. 12. 28. Ipse posuit in Ecclesia primùm Apostolos c. Bellar. L. 1. de Ro. Pont. c. 1. §. Respondeo Pontificatum And he gives an excellent reason for it Siquidem summa potestas Ecclesiastica non solùm data est Petro sedetiam aliis Apostolis Ibid. So belike by this Reason the Apostle doth clearely expresse the Popedome because all the rest of the Apostles had as much Ecclesiasticall Power as S. Peter had But then Bellarmine would salve it up with this That this Power is given Petro ut Ordinarie Pastori cui succederetur aliis verò tanquam Delegatis quibus non succederetur Ibid. but this is meere Begging of the Question and will never be granted unto him And in the meane time we have his absolute Confession for the other That the Supreme Ecclesiasticall Power was not in S. Peter alone but in all the Apostles Christ gave some to be Apostles for the Edification of his Church Therefore S. Peter and all his Successours are infallible in their Pastorall Iudgment And if he meane to prove the Continued Visible Succession which he saith is to he found in no Church but the Romane there 's a little more shew but to no more purpose A little more shew Because it is added †Eph. 4. 13. verse 13. That the Apostles and Prophets c. shall continue at their worke and that must needs be by succession till we all meet in Vnity and perfection of Christ. But to no more purpose For t is not said that they or their Successors should Continue at this their worke in a Personall uninterrupted Succession in any one Particular Church Romane or other Nor ever will A. C. bee able to proove that such a Succession is necessary in any one particular place And if he could yet his owne words tell us the Personall Succession is nothing if the Faith be not brought downe without change from Christ and his Apostles to this day and so to the end of the world Now here 's a peece of cunning too The Faith A. C. p. 73. brought down unchanged For if A. C. meane by the Faith the Creed and that in Letter 't is true the Church of Rome hath received and brought downe the Faith unchanged from Christ and his Apostles to these our dayes But then t is apparently false That no Church differing from the Romane in Doctrine hath kept that Faith unchanged and that by a visible and continued Succession For the Greek Church differs from the Romane in Doctrine and yet hath so kept that Faith unchanged But if he meane by the Faith unchanged and yet brought down in a continuall visible Succession not only the Creed in Letter but in Sense
this Pope which now sits or any other that hath beene or shall be is Infallible For he is not Infallible unlesse he be Pope and he is not Pope unlesse he be in Holy Orders And he cannot be so unlesse he have received those Holy Orders and that from one that had Power to Ordaine And those Holy Orders in your Doctrine are a Sacrament And a Sacrament is not perfectly given if he that Administers it have not intentionem faciendi quod facit Ecclesia an intention to doe that which the Church doth by Sacraments Now who can possibly tell that the Bishop which gave the Pope Orders was first a man qualified to give them and secondly so devoutly set upon his Worke that he had at the Instant of giving them an Intention and purpose to doe therein as the Church doth Surely none but that Bishop himselfe And his testimony of himselfe and his owne Act such especially as if faulty he would be loth to Confesse can neither give Knowledge nor Beliefe sufficient that the Pope according to this Canon is in Holy Orders So upon the Whole matter let the Romanists take which they will I give them free choyce either this Canon of the Councell of Trent is false Divinity and there is no such Intention necessary to the Essence and Being of a Sacrament Or if it be true it is impossible for any man to know and for any advised man to Believe That the Pope is Infallible in â—…is Iudiciall Sentences in things belonging to the Faith And so here againe a Generall Councell at least such an One as that of Trent is can Erre or the Pope is not Infallible But this is an Argument ad Hominem good against your Partie onely which maintaine this Councâ—…ll But the plaine Truth is Both are Errours For neither is the Bishop of Rome Infallible in his Iudicialls about the Faith Nor is this Intention of either Bishop or Priest of Absolute Necessity to the Essence of a Sacrament so as to make void the gracious Institution of Christ in case by any Tentation the Priests Thoughts should wander from his Worke at the Instant of using the Essentials of a Sacrament or have in him an Actuall Intention to scorne the Church And you may remember if you please that a Neopolitan †Minorensis Episcopus suit Bishop then present at Trent disputed this Case very learnedly and made it most evident that this Opinion cannot be defended but that it must open a way for any unworthy Priest to make infinite Nullities in Administration of the Sacraments And his Arguments were of such strength * L 2. Hist. Trident p 276. 277. Lâ—…idae An. 1622 ut caeteros Theologos dederint in stuporem as amazed the other Divines which were present And concluded That no Internall Intention was required in the Minister of a Sacrament but that Intention which did appeare Opere externo in the VVorke it selfe performed by him And that if hee had unworthily any wandring thoughts nay more any contrary Intention within him yet it neither did nor could hinder the blessed effect of any Sacrament And most certaine it is if this be not true besides all other Inconveniences which are many no man can secure himselfe upon any Doubt or trouble in his Conscience that he hath truly and really beene made partaker of any Sacrament whatsoever No not of Baptisme and so by Consequence be left in Doubt whether he be a Christian or no even after he is Baptised Wheras 't is most impossible That Christ should so order his Sacraments and so leave them to his Church as that poore Believers in his Name by any unworthinesse of any of his Priests should not be able to know whether they have received His Sacraments or not even while they have received them And yet for all this such great lovers of Truth and such Carefull Pastors over the Flock of Christ were these Trent Fathers that they regarded none of this but went on in the usuall track and made their Decree for the Internall Intention and purpose of the Priest and that the Sarcament was invalid without it Nay one Argument more there is and from your owne Grounds too that makes it more then manifest That the Pope can erre not Personally only but Iudicially also and so teach false Doctrine to the Church which a Summus Pontifâ—… quum 〈◊〉 Ecclesiam â—…ct in his quae al Fidem pertinent nullo casu â—…rrare potest Bel. l. 4. De Ro. Pâ—…t c. 3. §. 1. Bellarmine tels us No Pope hath done or can doe And a Maxime it is with you That a Generall Councell can erre if it be not confirmed by the Pope b Concilia Genâ—…ralia à Pontifiâ—… Consirmata 〈◊〉 non possunt 〈◊〉 L. 2. de Con. c. 2. §. 1. But if it be confirmed then it cannot erre Where first this is very improper Language For I hope no Councell is Confirmed till it be finished And when 't is finished even before the Popes Confirmation be put to it either it hath Erred or not erred If it have Erred the Pope ought not to Confirme it and if he do t is a void Act. For no power can make falshood Truth If it have not Erred then it was True before the Pope Confirmed it So his Confirmation addes nothing but his owne Assent Therefore his Confirmation of a Generall Councell as you will needs call it is at the most Signum non Causa A Signe and that such as may faile but no Cause of the Councels not Erring But then secondly if a Generall Councell Confirmed as you would have it by the Pope have Erred and so can Erre then certainly the Pope can Erre Iudicially For he never gives a more solemne Sentence for Truth then when he Decrees any thing in a Generall Councell Therefore if he have Erred and can Erre there then certainly he can Erre in his Definitive Sentence about the Faith and is not Infallible Now that he hath Erred and therefore can Erre in a Generall Councell Confirmed in which he takes upon him to teach all Christendome is most cleere and evident For the Pope teaches in and by the a Conc. Lateran Can. 1. Councell of Lateran Confirmed by Innocent the third Christ is present in the Sacrament by way of Transubstantiation And in and by the b Concil Constan Sess. 13. Councell of Constance the Administration of the Blessed Sacrament to the Laity in one kinde notwithstanding Christs Institution of it in both kindes for all And in and by the c Concil Trid. Sess. 25. Decret de Invotatione Councell of Trent Invocation of Saints and Adoration of Images to the great Scandall of Christianity and as great hazard of the Weake Now that these Particulars among Many are Errours in Divinity and about the Faith is manifest both by Scripture and the Iudgement of the Primitive Church For Transubstantiation first That was never heard of in the Primitive Church nor
till the Councell of Lateran nor can it bee prooved out of Scripture And taken properly cannot stand with the Grounds of Christ an Religion As for Communion in one kinde Christs Institution is cleere against that And not onely the Primitive Church but the VVhole Church of Christ kept it so till within lesse then foure hundred yeares For a Provide in quibusdam Ecclâ—…siis obserâ—…tur ut Populo Sanguis non detur Tâ—…om p. 3. q. So. A. 12. c. So it was 〈◊〉 in some Churches in his time Negare non possumus etiam in Ecclesiâ Latiná suisse usum utriusque speciâ—…i usque ad tempora S. Thomae durasse Uasqu in 3. Disput. 216. c. 3. n. 38. Aquinas confesses it was so in use even to his times And he was both borne and dead during the Raigne of Henry the third of England Nay it stands yet as a Monument in the very b Refecti cibo potuque coelesti Deus noster Te supplices exoramus c. In Proprio Missarum de Sanctis Ianua 15. Orat post Communionem Et Ianua 21. Missall against the present Practice of the Church of Rome That then it was usually Given and received in both kindes And for Invocation of Saints though some of the Ancient Fathers have some Rhetoricall flourishes about it for the stirring up of Devotion as they thought yet the Church then admitted not of the Invocation of them but only of the Commemoration of the Martyrs as appeares cleerely in c Ad quod Sacrificium suo loco Ordine Homines Dei nominantur non tamen à Sacerdote qui Sacrificat Invocantur S. Aug. L. 22. Civ Dei c. 10. S. Augustine And when the Church prayed to God for any thing she desired to be heard for the Mercies and the Merits of Christ not for the Merits of any Saints whatsoever For I much doubt this were to make the Saints more then Mediators of Intercession which is all that d Bellarm. L. 1. De Sanâ—…r Beatitud c. 20. §. Ad primum ergo locum c. you will acknowledge you allow the Saints For I pray is not by the Merits more then by the Intercession Did not Christ redeeme us by his Merits And if God must heare our Prayers for the Merits of the Saints how much fall they short of sharers in the e Sunt Redemptores nostri aliquo modo secundùm aliquid Bellar. L 1. De Indulgen c. 4. Et Sanctos appellat Numina L. 2. de Imagin Sanctorum c. 20. § 3. Now if this word Numen signifie any thing else besides God himselfe or the power of God or the Oracle of God let Bellarmine shew it or A. C. for him Mediation of Redemption You may thinke of this For such Prayers as these the Church of Rome makes at this day and they stand not without great scandall to Christ and Christianity used and authorized to be used in the Missall For instance f Ut ejus Meritis Precibus a Gehennae Incendiiâ—… liberemur In proprio Missarum de Sanctis Decemb. 6 Vpon the Feast of S. Nicolas you pray That God by the Merits and Prayers of S. Nicolas would deliver you from the fire of Hell And upon the Octaves of S. Peter and S. Paul a Ut Amborum Meritis aternitatis Glâ—…riam consequamur Iâ—…id Julii 6. you desire God That you may Obtaine the Glory of Eternity by their Merits And on the b Ejus intercedentibus Meritis ab Omnibus nos absolve peccatis Ibid. Julii 14 Feast of S. Bonaventure you pray that God would absolve you from all your sinnes by the Interceding Merits of Bonaventure And for Adoration of Images the c In Optatus his time the Christians were much troubled upon but a false report That an Image was to be placed upon the Altar What would they have done if Adoration had been Commanded c. Et rectè dictum or at fi talem samam similis veritas sequeretur Optatus L. 3. ad finem Ancient Church knew it not And the Moderne Church of Rome is too like to Paganisme in the Practice of it and driven to scarce Intelligible Subtilties in her Servants Writings that defend it And this without any Care had of Millions of Soules unable to understand her Subtilties or shun her Practice Did I say the Moderne Church of Rome is grown too like Paganisme in this Point And may this Speech seeme too hard Well if it doe I 'll give a double Account of it The One is 'T is no harsher Expression then They of Rome use of the Protestants and in Cases in which there is no shew or Resemblance For d Sicut non licet cum Ethnitis Idela colere Becan L. de fide Haret ferâ—…anda c. 8. Becanus tels us 'T is no more lawfull to receive the Sacrament as the Calvinists receive it then 't is to worship Idols with the Ethnicks And Gregory de Valentia inlarges it to more Points then one but with no more truth The Sectaries of our times e Contingit aliquando Hareticos circa plura errare quam Gentiles ut Manichaos inquit Thomas Quòd nos possumus verâ—… dicere de nostri temporis Sectariis qui culpabiliter in pluribus videntur errare Valentia in 2. 2 ae Disp. 1. Q. 10. Puncto 3. saith he seeme to Erre culpably in more things then the Gentiles This is easily said but here 's no Proofe Nor shall I hold it a sufficient warrant for me to sower my Language because these men have dipped their Pens in Gall. The other Account therefore which I shall give of this speech shall come vouched both by Authority and Reason And first for Authority I could set Luâ—…o vicus Vives against Becanus if I would who layes expresly That the making of Feasts at the Oratories of the Martyrs which a Quod quidem à Christianis melioribus non sit S. Aug. L. 8. de Civ Dei c. 27. S. Augustine tels us The best Christians practised not are a kinde of b Illae quasi Parentalia superstitioni Gentilium simillima Lud Vives Ibid. Parentalia Funerall Feasts too much resembling the superstition of the Gentiles Nay Vives need not say resembling that superstition since c Quod ergo mortuis litabatur utique parentationi deput abatur quae species proinde Idololatriâ—… est quoniam Idololatria Parentationis est species Tertull. L. de Spectaculis c. 12. Tertullian tels us plainely that Idolatry it selfe is but a kinde of Parentation And Vives dying in the Communion of the Church of Rome is a better testimony against you then Becanus or Valentia being bitter enemies to our Communion can be against us But I 'le come nearer home to you and prove it by more of your owne For d Manifestius est quà m ut multis verbis explicari debeat Imaginum simulachrorum Cultum nimiùm invaluisse affectioni seu potiùs superstitioni populi