1. COR. 8. 2. If any man thinke that he knoweth any thing he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to knowe ¶ THE DEFENSE of the Aunswere to the Admonition against the Replie of T. C. BY IOHN VVHITGIFT Doctor of Diuinitie In the beginning are added these 4. Tables 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the Replie 2 Of Falsifications and Untruthes 3 Of matters handled at large 4 A table generall If any man be contentious we haue no such custome neyther the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. 16. †Printed at London by Henry Binneman for Humfrey Toye Anno. 1574. GAL. 5. 26. Let vs not be desirous of vaineglorie prouoking one another enuying one another ¶ To the godlie Reader IT VVERE BVT A NEEDLESSE labour to make any particular recitall of those pointes of doctrine vvhich this Church of Englande at this day doth holde and maintayne for they be at large set out in sundrie english bookes and especially in the Apologie of the Church of Englande and the Defense of the same summarily also collected together in the boke of Articles agreed vpon in the Conuocation at London Anno 1562. c. this I dare boldely affirme that all pointes of Religion necessarie to saluation and touching eyther the mysterie of our redemption in Chryst or the right vse of the Sacramentes and true manner of vvorshipping God are as purely and perfectely taught and by publike authoritie established in this Church of England at this day as euer they vvere in any church sithence the Apostles time or novv be in any reformed Church in the vvorld the vvhich to be true those that be learned euen among the myslikers of this present state can not nor vvill not denie Likevvise that all Heresies all corrupt doctrines all superstitious and papisticall opinions haue bene and be by the Prince and the Realme banished by the learned Byshops and Preachers in vvorde and in vvriting confuted vvho is so blinded vvith malice that he cannot see or so frovvard and vvilfull that he vvil not confesse VVhat shall vvethen think of those men that are so farre from acknovvledging this singular and vnspeakeable benefite proceeding from the mere mercie of God so farre from being thankfull for the same from desiring the continuance of it vvith heartie prayers that by all meanes possible they seek rather to obscure it and to deface it bicause in certaine accidentall poynts they haue not their fantasies and proper deuises If this be not to set themselues agaynst God and to trouble the peace of the Church for externall things vvhich is schismaticall let the quiet and godlie Christian iudge Hovve much better had it bene for them to haue proceeded in teaching necessarie pointes of doctrine and exhorting to obedience to concorde to godlie lyfe and conuersation than thus vvith no small reioycing of the vvicked great offence of the vveak Gospellers maruellous grief of the Queenes maiestie and other that haue the care of gouernment frovvardly to dysquiet and dysturb the Church trouble the happie peace of the cōmon vveale and hazard the vvhole state of Religion they shall one day if not to late vvell vnderstand Furthermore it behoueth all godlie mindes that vvill not be caried avvay vvith rash and ouerhastie iudgemēt in this cōtrouersie to cōsider not only that that I haue before spoken of the truth of doctrine publikely receyued and cōfirmed but also circumspectly to vveigh the circumstances of time place person and the vvhole state of things novve in this Church and Realme of Englande The regarde vvherof in mine opinion must needes cause in all discrete heades a staye of iudgement in comparison that the things themselues barely considered vvoulde do The state of this Church of Englande at this day God be thanked is not Heathenish Turkish or Papisticall in vvhich conditiō many things might be done that othervvise are not to be attempted but it is the state of a church reformed and by authoritie and consent settled not only in truth of doctrine as before is noted but also in order of thinges externall touching the gouernment of the Church and administration of the Sacramentes VVherefore the controuersie is not vvhether many of the thinges mentioned by the platformers vvere fitlie vsed in the Apostles time or may novv be vvell vsed in some places yea or be cōueniently vsed in sundrye reformed Churches at this day For none of these braunches are denyed neither do vve take vpon vs as vve are sclaundered either to blame or to condemne other Churches for such orders as they haue receiued most fit for their estats But this is the vvhole state of our controuersie vvhen vve of this Church in these perillous dayes do see that vve haue a greate number of hollovve hartes vvithin this Realme that daylie gape for alteratiō of Religiō and many mightie great enimies abroade busilie deuising and vvorking to bring the same to passe and to ouerthrovve the state both of religion and of the Realme vvhether seing vve haue a setled order in doctrine and gouernment receiued and confirmed by lavve it may stand vvith godlie and Christian vvisdome vvith disobedience to the Prince and lavve and vvith the vnquietnes of the Church and offence of many consciences to attempt so greate alteratiō as this platforme must needes bring and that for matters externall onlye and vvith such egernesse and bitternesse that they deface and discredite the vvhole state of this Church vvith al the Preachers and Ecclesiasticall gouernours of the same as remayning in horrible corruptions and Antichristian deformities and thereby fill the mouthes of the aduersaries vvith greater matter of obloquie to deface the gospell than euer of them selues they had bene able to deuise Surely I could neuer reade but that they that should so do vvere rather to be estemed troublesome and schismaticall defacers than zealous and godly reformers I knovve that no Church can be so perfect in all points of externall gouerment and ceremonies but that such as be disposed maye picke some occasion of quarrelling thereat thoughe vniustlie therefore the true members of the Church must not be to light of credit nor to redie to follovve contentious captaines For S. Paule sayeth Si quis sit contenfiosus inter vos c. If any be contentious among you we haue no such custome neyther the Churches of God c. Againe vvhen any thing is amisse it must be considered vvhether the faultes be in the thinges themselues or in the persons for vve may not vvith partiall and corrupt iudgement impute the faultes of the persons to the things vvhether they be offices or ceremonies for then should vve continuallie bee altering the state and neuer stand stedfast in any kynde of gouernment therefore in such cases vve must seke to reforme the abuses in men vve must not pull avvaye the states and offices or the thinges themselues bicause they be abused by some men But to let this passe and come to the purpose this Replie of T. C. vvhich is of some counted
so bounde that by no meanes we may declyne at any tyme from hys preceptes These places therefore may be aptly alleadged agaynste the pride tyrannie and ambition of the Byshop of Rome whiche seeketh tyrannically to rule and not to profyte but it maketh nothing at all agaynste the lawfull authoritie of any other in any state or condition of men T. C. Page 12. Sect. vlt. Concerning the exposition and sense of that place I agree with you and * Bylike it was fondly alleadged when you do but suppose their meaning suppose that it is quoted of the authours of the Admonition rather to note e ambition of certaine whiche gape greedily at these bishoppricks whiche wee haue to the ende they might be saluted by the name of Lords and honours than to proue that one minister should not haue dominion ouer another And therefore although these places be against no lawfull authoritie of any estate or condition of men yet as they are aptly alleadged against the bishop of Rome the one against his estate and authoritie simply the other againste his tyrannie and euill vsage of himselfe in that authoritie so it may be aptly alleadged agaynste any other whyche shall fall into the lyke faulte of the Byshoppe of Rome Io. Whitgifte It is manifest that they quote this same place for the selfe same purpose that they do the other there can be no mist so thicke that may darken the eyes of men from séeing it except they séeing will not sée as you do at this time I am glad that you agree with me in the exposition of this place surely in so doing you must also agrée with me in the exposition of the other For as Christ héere doth not forbid the names but the arrogant and ambitious desire of them so doth he not there forbid authoritie and superioritie but the coueting of it and ambitious and inordinate desire of the same And if you well marke the words Christ doth here much more plainly forbid these names then he doth thare those offices of superioritie If any man doth imitate the Byshop of Romes ambition either in office or in name he hathe me as greate an enimie as he hath you But in that you passe ouer with silence these words of mine these places therefore may be aptly alleadged c. you séeme eyther to allow my expositions of the other places also or else you are ashamed of your owne vnfaithful and subtil dealing which before would haue made your Reader beléeue that I had misliked all those godly learned mens iudgments which vse these places against the Byshop of Rome it had bin plaine dealing to haue set downe my words in order as I haue done yours Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 17. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Howe aptly that place of the. 24. of Mathew But if the euil seruant shall say in his heart c. is alleaged let all men iudge I thinke it forbiddeth not to punish such as breake good lawes But Lorde howe these men are beaten which do as they list say what they list that with reioycing therto that is if they be no otherwise beaten than hitherto they haue bin they will not only with schismes actions teare in sunder this Church of Englande but in time ouerthrow the whole state of the common wealth To proue that either we must haue a right ministerie of God and a right gouernment of his Church according to the Scriptures set vp c. or else there can be no right religion c. is alleaged the ninth of Mathew the fourth to the Ephe. and the eightenth of Mat. In the ninthe of Mathew the place they alleage is this Surely the haruest is great but the labourers be fevve vvherfore c. In the fourthe to the Ephe. He therfore gaue some to be Apostles c. In the eightenth of Mat. If thy brother trespasse agaynst thee c. The first place declareth that ministers of the word are necessarie in Christes Churche The seconde that there is diuers kindes and degrees of them And the thirde sheweth an order of correcting secrete sinnes and priuate offences and medleth not with those that be open and knowne to other Now therfore consider to what purpose those places be noted in the margent and how little they proue that which is concluded As for all the rest of the places of scripture that followeth noted in the margent of this Preface I knowe not to what purpose they be alleaged but only for vayne glory to bleare the eyes of the ignorant Subtilty in quoting places only people and to make them beléeue that al that which is written in this booke is nothing else but scripture it selfe They haue delte very subtilly to quote the places only and not to set them downe in playne wordes for by this meanes they thinke that of the most part it shall neuer be vnderstanded howe vnaptly and to what small purpose they be alleaged Io. Whitgifte All this L. C. passeth ouer in silence thereby as I thinke acknowledging it to be true Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 18. This name Puritane is very aptly giuen to these men not bicause The name of Puri ane they be pure no more than were the Heretikes called Cathari but bicause they thinke them selues to be mundiores caeteris more pure than others as Cathari dyd separate themselues from al other Churches and congregations as spotted and defiled Bicause also they suppose the church which they haue deuised to be without all impuritie T. C Pag. 13. Lin. 1. Sect. 1. The purenesse that we boast of is the innocencie of our fauiour Christ who shal couer al our vnpurenesse and not impute it vnto vs. And for so much as fayth purisieth the heart we doubt not but God of his goodnesse hath begon our sanctificatiō hope that he wil make an end of it euē vntu y e day of our Lorde Iesus Albeit we hold diuers points more purely thā they do which impugne them yet I knowe none that by comparison hathe either sayde or written that all these that thinke as we doe in those poyntes are more holy and more vnblameable in lyfe than any of those that thinke otherwyse If we saye that in those poyntes whiche we holde from them that we thinke soundlyer than they doe we are ready to proue it if we saye also that we lyue not so offensiuely to the worlde commonly by getting (a) And yet some of you haue a competent number without doing any duetie at them so many liuinges into oure handes as woulde finde foure or fyue good learned able Ministers all the world will beare vs witnesse Other purenesse we take not vpon vs. And therefore as the name was first by the Papistes maliciously inuented so is it of you very vnbrotherly confirmed Whereas you saye that they are Puritanes whiche suppose the Churche whiche they haue deuised to be without all impuritie if you meane without sinne
heere you attribute vnto it that euery one hand ouer head preached baptised and expounded the scriptures what a window nay what a gate is opened heere to (a) The Anabaptists glory of the same calling that you c 〈…〉 for Anabaptists to confirme their fantasticall opinion wherein they hold that euery man whome the spirite moueth may come euen from the plough tayle to the pulpit to preach the word of God If you say it is Ambrose saying not yours I answer vnlesse you allow it why bring you it and that to proue the difference betweene the Apostles times and these For if it be false as it is most false then there is no difference heere betweene the Apostles times and ours Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare and hath it not bin proued that there was none that tooke vpon him the ministerie in the church but by lawfull calling what is this but to cast dust and dirt of the fairest and beautifullest image that euer was to make a smokie disfigured euill proportioned image to seeme beautifull to ouerthrow the Apostles buildings of golde and siluer and precious stones to make a cotage of wood strawe and stubble to haue some estimation which could haue none the other standing For in effect so you do when to vphold a corrupt vse that came in by the tyrannie of the Pope you go about to discredite the orders and institutions whiche were vsed in the Apostles times and that with suche manifest vntruthes Io. Whitgifte This is a very slender answer to Ambrose whose authoritie both for his excellent Ambrose vnworthyly r 〈…〉 ted by T. C. learning and vertue and also for his antiquitie is not to be so contemptuously reiected The selfesame word and to the same effect doth Georgius maior in his commentaries vpon the first to the Philip. recite out of one Rabanus Byshop of Moguntia who also borowed them as it should séeme of Ambrose Maior alloweth well of them and maketh no suche exclamations as you do and yet a man knowne to be learned and sound in religion as his works declare Likewise the authors of the Centuries 4. Cent. cap. 7. alledge this same place of Ambrose and allow of it and therefore the matter is not so heynous as you make it Anabaptistes pretende a kind of calling by the â—eople The Anabaptists glory of the same calling that you nowe contend for as it appeareth in the. 3. booke of M. Bullinger aduer Anabap. cap. 4. whose words be these suam verò vocationem c. They affirme that their calling is iust bycause they be called and sent of their 〈◊〉 Churches but our vocation to be vnlawful which is made of the magistrate and therefore that they are sent of God but we of the world and of men You know that this was one of the first things that the rusti all Anabaptists moued sedition for and that they required it of the magistrates as Sleydan declareth li. 5. ex his postulatis saith he primuÌ„ erat vt 〈◊〉 ipsis liceret ecclesiae ministros eligere qui verbum dei purè doceant Of those requests the firste was that they might choose ministers of the Church which might teach the worde of God purely You sée therefore that the Anabaptists many of them require a vocation and one not much vnlike that which you striue for in this place and at this time When Ambrose saith that it was permitted to euery man to preach the Gospell c. he dothe not say that it was permitted vnto them withoute some kinde of calling if you will vewe the place well and consider it at large as it is in Ambrose your heate will be something quenched I doubt not It is no derogation at all from the Apostolicall Church to haue the orders of it in diuers points altered for though suche were most conueniente then for that state time and persons yet are they not so now in respect of this state time and persons so that the forme of the Apostolicall Churches was then perfyte and absolute though now it admitte in the respect of diuers circumstances alteration Chap. 6. the. 15. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 45. Sect. vlt. Musculus also in his common places answering to this question Musculus why that ministers of the word are not chosen now by the ministers and the people as they were in the primitiue Church but appoynted by the Magistrate saith thus talis tum ecclesiarum erat status vt aliter noÌ„ essent eligendi ministri quia Christiano magistratu destituebantur Si reuocas temporum illorum mores primùm conditiones statum quoque illorum reuoca Such vvas then the state of Churches that they coulde choose their ministers no othervvise bycause they had no Christian Magistrates If thou vvouldest haue the manners and customes of those times obserued then must thou call backe their conditions and state T. C. Page 38. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. vlt. Sect 39. Sect. 1 2. The place is to commoÌ„ which you assigne you had I am sure the booke before you you might haue tolde where the place was and in what title But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate is answered by himsel e in the same booke where he entreateth of the election of the ministers For going about as it seemeth to satisfie some of their ministers whiche were brought in do bt of their calling bycause they were not chosen by their Churches speaking of the vse of the Church in choosing their minister he sayth thus First it must be playnly confessed that the ministers were in times past chosen by consente of the people and or eyned and confirmed of the seignioures Secondarily that that forme of election was Apostolicall and lawfull Thirdly that it was conformable to the libertie of the Church and that thrusting the Pastor vpon the Churche not being chosen of it doth agree to a Church that is not free but subiecte to bond ge Fourthly that this forme of choise by the Churche maketh much both to that that the minister may gouern his slocke with a good conscience as also that the people may yeld themselues to be easlier ruled than when one commeth against their willes vnto them And to conclude all these he sayth that they are altogyther certeyne and such as cannot be denyed After he sayth that the corrupt estate of the Church and religion driueth to alter this order and to call the election to certayne learned men which should after be confirmed of the Prince And that it may yet more cleerely appeare that his iudgement is nothing lesse than to confirme this election he setteth downe their election in Bernland whiche he approueth and laboureth to make good as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the primitiue Churche yet commeth very neare vnto it As that not one maÌ„ but al the ministers in the citie of Berue do choose
a Pastor when there is any place void Afterward he is sent to the Senate from the which if he be doubted of he is sent agayne to the ministers to be examined and then if they find him meete he is confirmed of the Senate whiche standeth of some number of the people and by the moste parte of their voyces By these things it appeareth that this election of the Minister by the people is lawfull and Apost like and confe sed also by him that those that are otherwise bring with them subiection vnto the Church and seruitude and carya note and marke of corruption of Religion Laste of all that he go h about to defende the election vsed in the Churches where he was Minister by thys that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche Nowe what cause there may be that we should bring the Churche into bondage or take awaye the order whereby bothe the Minister maye be better assured of hys calling and the people maye the willyngiyer submitte them selues vnto theyr pastors and gouernours or what cause to departe from the Apostolyke forme of the choyse of the Pastor beyng lawfull I confesse I knowe not and woulde be gladde to learne To assigne the cause hereof vnto the Christian Magistrate and to saye that these things can not be hadde vnder hym as you vnder Maister Musculus name doe affyrme is o doe greate iniurie vnto the office of the Magistrate whyche abridgeth not the libertie of the Churche but defendeth it diminisheth not the Pastor his assurance of his calling but rather encreaseth it by establishyng the ordinarie callyngs onely whiche in the time of perse ution some tymes are not so ordinarie withdraweth not the obedience of the people from the Pastor bu vrgeth it where it is not and constrayneth it where it is not voluntarie And seeyng that also (*) Musculu 〈◊〉 ning 〈◊〉 Musculus sayth that these forced elections are remedyes for corruption of Religion and disordered states what greater dishonour can there be done vnto the holy institution of God in the ciuill gouernour than to saye that these forced elections wythout the consent of the people muste be where there is a Christian Magistrate as thoughe there coulde be no pure Religion vnder him when as in deede it maye be easily vnder hym pure whiche can hardly and with greate daunger be pure withoute hym And when as it is sayde that the Churches consente shoulde be hadde in the election of the Minister (a) Here you ar one 〈◊〉 from your Apostolica forme we doe not denie the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill Magistrate and the disanulling of them if the Churche in choosing and the Ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man so that yet he doe not take away the libertie from the Church of choosing a more conuenient man So that you see that by Musculus your witnesse reasons thys enforced election withoute the consente of the people is but corrupte and so oughte not to be in the Churche And that although it hath bene borne withall yet it must be spoken against and the lawfull forme of election laboured for of all those that loue the truth and the sinceritie therof Io. Whitgifte Turpe est doctori c. you haue before tolde vs what Iustinian sayth (a) Pag. 36. Sect. 2. in codice Also T. C. tripped in that wher he findeth fau with other of (b) Page 37. Sect. 3. an Epistle sent from the councell of Nice vnto the Churche of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention of the councell of (c) Page 37. Sect. 5. Carthage of (d) Ibidē sect ▪ 6 Toletane councell and afterwarde you tell vs what (e) Pag. 4 Sect. 2. Augustine (*) Pag. 72. Sect. 3. Gratiā say and wil that (f) Pag. 71. Sect. 6. the centuries should be seene c. yet you neither tell vs in what part of Iustinians Code in what booke of Chap. of Theodoret in what coūcel of Cartharge or of Toledo in what tome of Augustine or part of Gratiā in what centurie or booke of centuries which all require much more tyme to search out than this of Musculus especially your law which for any thing that I can perceiue asketh so long a searche in codice Iustiniani that I thinke it will neuer be founde there But it is no great marueile for you reporte them as the Author doth of whom you borowe them without any further searche or tryall But to put you out of doubt this place of Musculus is titulo de Magistratibus Musculus in déede confesseth that in the Apostles tyme ministers were choosen by the people and ordeyned and confirmed by the elders And after that he hath shewed this manner of election to haue béene vsed t Cyprians tyme he addeth and sayth Ad hunc itaque Tit. de ve b ▪ ministris modum eligebantur c. After thys manner in tymes paste were Ministers Byshoppes and Deacons elected the whyche forme also of electing Churches reteyned vnto the tyme of Christian Princes and Magistrates whose consent was required in the election of Byshoppes and that worthily for it is not meete that those things whiche are to be done publikely and concerne the people whiche be their subiectes and perteine vnto them in respect of Religion except we wil say with the Anabap. that Christians ought not to be Magistrates shoulde be done without their consent After this he declareth how the Bishop of Rome in the end spoyled the Magistrate and the people also of this libertie and when he hath spoken against the abuses of the Romane Church in that matter he maketh an obiection of such Churches as professe the Gospell saying but some peraduenture wi l obiect that those Churches whyche in our time will seme to haue reformed Religion receiue their ministers of the Magistrate not by any election of the people to this obiection he sayth that he is compelled to answere for their sakes who though they faithfully labour in the word of the Lord yet do they doubte whether their vocatiō be lawfull or no bicause they were not elected ordeined according to the Apostolicall forme And hauing confessed those points y t you here set downe he maketh this resolutiō Verū si consideres diuersū ecclesiae statū c. If thou shalt consider the diuers state of the Church thou must confesse that that which in it self is Apostolicall lawful vsuall conuenient for the libertie of the Churches primis quidē ecclesiae tēporibus prodesse potuisse nostris vero non ita might wel profit the Church in the beginning but not so in our time For thē there was not such a multitude of Christiās but that the minister without tumult might by cōmon consent be chosen which thing at this day were very hard to be done Moreouer thē the mindes of the faithfull were not so generally infected with cōmon errors nor so blinded
this doth that we retaine in the Churche of England at this day and a great deale more Chap. 8. the. 3. Diuision The reasons why the people haue bene secluded from such elections and so ought Why the people haue bene nowe ought to be debarred from the election to be are these 1. Fyrst the meruailous contentions that haue bin in suche kinde of elections by the sinister affections of the people béeyng easily moued to diuision and partes taking vpon euery light occasion Examples wherof there be infinite almoste in euerye Contention about the election of ministers election as it may enidently appeare to euery one that hath but lyghtly runne ouer any Ecclesiastical historie When Damasus was chosen Bishop of Rome there was one Vrsicinus a Deacon Plat. in vita Damasi sette vp against him and the contention was so vehement betwixte them and the rage of the people so intemperate that they fell from voyces to blowes in somuch that there was many slaine euen in the place of election What sedition was there moued in the election of Boniface the second when Platina Dioscorus contended with him for the Bishoprike the people were so deuided that the contention could not be ended but with the death of Dioscorus The lyke brawle was in the elections of Conon Sergius Paulus 1. Constantinus Platina and almost in euery election made in that seate as it is euident in suche stories as especially entreate of the liues of the Bishops of Rome The lyke sturre there hath bin in other places also especially after that the churches were deuided with heresies and sects At Constantinople after the death of Alexander their Byshop there was a maruellous vprore for his successor some desiring to haue Paule a Catholike and some Macedonius an Arrian this contention was so vehement that the whole citie was disturbed and many slaine on both parties yea euen the Emperours officer that was sent to appease it Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 4. 7. The strife that was in the same place after the death of Atticus Philip Prochis and Sisinius striuing for the Byshopricke at one time Socrates testifyeth lib. 7. cap. 26. Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 4. 7. Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 26. Lib. 7. cap. 35. Sozom. lib. 4 cap. 28. Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 9. the same doth he write also to haue bin betwixt Philip and Prochis after the depriuation of Nestorius lib. 7. cap. 35. After Endoxius remoued from Antioch to Constantinople there was in Antioch great strife for a successor as the same Sozo sheweth lib. 4. cap. 28. where he addeth these wordes as in such things it commeth to passe that ther are diuers contentions and seditions betwixt the Cleargie and betwixt the people Socrates lib. 5. cap. 9. declareth the like tumultes to haue bin aboute the election of Flauianus and he addeth atque ita Antiochena ecclesia denuò non propter fidem sed propter Episcopos scinditur And so the Church of Antioch is agayne deuided not for matters of faith but for their Byshops I declared before out of Nazianzene in his funerall oration at the buriall of his father Nazianzene what great trouble and daunger was at Cesaria in his time about the election of their Byshops The same also I noted out of Augustine Epist. 110. it was the cause why August in tom 2. epi. 110. both he and his predecessor in their life times did prouide to themselues successors as it is there manifest Socrates lib. 6. cap. 11. declareth what contention there was at Ephesus about the election Socrat. lib. 6. cap. 11. of their Byshop the people being deuided into sundry factions in somuche that Chrysostome was himselfe enforced to appoint vnto them one Heraclis his Deacon The same Authoure lib. 7. cap. 7. testifyeth the like contention to haue bin in Alexandria Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 7. Euagrius li. 2. cap. 5. whilest some desired Timothie an Archdeacon othersome Cyrill Euagrius li. 2. ca. 5. writeth thus Cum antem bic Proterius c. when this Proterius was placed in the Byshops seate of Alexandria there arose a greate and intollerable tumult among the people which were tossed with diuers sentences for as it often falleth out in such cases some would haue Dioscorus agayne others stucke stoutly to Proterius so that many incurable mischieses were committed For Priscus the Rhetorician writeth that the gouernour of Thebes came the same time to Alexandria and saw the people wholly to set them selues agaynste the magistrates and that when the garison of souldiers woulde haue kepte backe the sedition they beate them backe with stones into the temple whiche was in times past called the temple of Serapis then the people comming thither with speede tooke the temple and burned the souldiers quicke But whēthe Emperour vnderstoode herof he sent thither two thousand new souldiers who hauing a prosperous winde passage arriued the sixt day after at the great citie of Alexandria and so raged against the wiues and daughters of the men of Alexandria that much more mischiefe was now wrought than before To what further inconuenience this intollerable contention came afterwards the same Euagrius writeth cap. 8. where he also describeth the manners and conditions of Euagrius li. 2. cap. 8. the people at large and declareth how easely they are moued to contentions and tumultuous dealing how willingly led by any factious person that pretēdeth liberty c. In the end he sheweth how villanously and cruelly they murdered Proterius appointed to be their Byshop What should I speake of that hurlyburly that was in Millains before the election Theod. lib. 4. cap. 6. Chrysost. lib. 3. de sacerdotio of Ambrose whereof Theodo speaketh lib. 4. cap. 6. I shal desire y e learned reader to peruse Chrysostome in the. 3. booke that he writeth de sacerdotio wher he speaketh of this matter plentifully declareth y e maruelous partialitie the vntollerable cōtentiōs that y e people vsed was y e cause of in such electiōs If I were disposed to heape vp examples I could fill a large volume but these being almost in the best time of the Church vnder Christian Princes manifestly declare what intollerable inconuenience ensueth such elections as are committed to the people especially in these matters 2 My seconde reason is that if suche elections shoulde be committed to the people the iuill Magistrate who hath the chéefe gouernment of the Churche and to whome the especiall care of religion doth apperteine should not be able to procure such reformation nor such consent and agreement in matters of religion as he is when he hath himselfe the placing of Bishops and such as be the chiefe of the Cleargie for the people The election of ministers by the people an impedimēt to the ciuill magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters who are commonly be t to nouelties and to factions and most ready to receyue that doctrine that séemeth to be
may lawfully be reteyned and worne whose iudgement and authoritie with learned and wyse men doth farre ouerreach your naked denyall Neyther doth Tertullian speake any thing in his books de corona militis that tendeth to the confutation of anye thing that Master Martyr hath here spoken but to the confirmation of it rather as he maye perceyue that with diligence readeth the booke Eusebius Lib. 4. cap. 11. sayth that Iustinus Martyr preached the Eusebius Gospell of Christ beyng apparelled lyke an heathen Philosopher S. Augustine de ciuit Lib. 19. cap. 19. writeth thus it perteyneth nothing to the Citie of God in what kinde of Augustine apparell or in what order of lyfe so that it be not agaynst God anye man followe this fayth whereby we come vnto God Therfore when Philosophers become Christians the church compelleth them not to chaunge their apparell or manner of lyuing whiche can nothing hinder Religion but onely she compelleth them to chaunge their false opinions Hilarie Hilarie also sayth in Psal. 67. that the spoyles of the heathens taken from the deuill are deuided to the furniture and ornamentes of the Churche of God So that the saying of Master Martyr is very true and confirmed by auncient authoritie and the vse of the Church as the testimonies of these fathers manifestly declare Where as you saye that if I would haue matched the surplice well I should haue sayd sensors tapers c. I tell you againe that it is not I but M. Martyr a famous and notable man that so matched them and at that time when the same matters were in controuersie and his iudgement required of them and therefore coulde not be written of him but with great aduisement Howbeit that you maye know something the more you muste learne to put a difference betwene Adiapbora vera Pseudoadiapbora those things that be indifferent in deede and those that are falsely accompted indifferent Chap. 5. the fifth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 59. Sect. 1. Pag. 60. Sect. 1. Bucer in an Epistle that he writte to Iohn Alasco is of the same Bucer iudgement his wordes are worthie to be noted and be these For if by no meanes it be lavvfull to vse those things vvhiche vvere of Aarons Priesthood or of the Gentiles then is it not lavvfull for vs to haue Churches nor holydayes For there is no expresse commaundement by vvord in the holy Scriptures of these things It is gathered notvvithstanding from the example of the olde people that they are profitable for vs to the encrease of godlynesse vvhich thing also experience proueth For any thing to be a What it is to be a note of Antichrist note of Antichrist is not in the nature of any creature in it selfe for to that ende nothing vvas made of God but it hangeth altogether of consenting to Antichristes Religion and the professing thereof The vvhich consent and The vse or abuse of things indifferent profession beyng chaunged into the consent and profession of Christianitie there can sticke in the things themselues no note or marke of Antichristes Religion The vse of Bels vvas a marke of Antichristianitie in our Churches vvhen the people by them vvere called to Masses and when they vvere roong against tempestes Novve they are a token of Christianitie vvhen the people by them are gathered together to the Gospell of Christ and other holy actions VVhy may it not then be that the selfe same garmentes Bucers opinion may serue godly vvith godly men that vvas of vvicked signification vvith the vngodly Truely I knovve very many Ministers of Christe most godly men vvho haue vsed godly these vestures and at this day doe yet vse them So that I dare not for this cause ascribe vnto them any faulte at all much lesse so heynous a fault of communicating vvith Antichrist for the vvhiche faulte vve may vtterly refuse to communicate vvith them in The distribution of bread wine in the sacrifices of deuils Christ. The Priests of deuils did celebrate in their sacrifices the distribution of bread and the cuppe as Iustinus Martyr and Tertullian make mention VVhat let is there vvhy vve may not vse the same ceremonies also you vvill say vve haue a commaundement of the Lord touching this ceremonie Very vvell And by the selfe same it appeareth that same thing to serue among the children of God to the seruice of Christ vvhich the vvicked abused in the seruice of deuils if the commaundement of Christ be added thereto But it is the commaundement of Christ that in our holy actions vveinstitute and vse all things so as comelinesse and order be obserued that fayth may be edified The same M. Bucer in another Epistle written to M. Cranmer Archbishop of Canterbury saith on this sort All true godly men may ☞ godly vse those rytes vvhiche vvicked men haue abused hovvsoeuer vngodly T. C. Pag. 56. Line 2. Sect. 1. It is true that M. Bucer saith that it is not in the nature of any creature to be a note of Antichrist but yet it followeth not thereof that the creature that hath bene accidentally and throughe abuse applyed to Idolatrie may be forthwith vsed as we shall thinke good For neither the Idols of the gentus nor the corruptions of those which offered had not power to make the beefe or mutton that was offered no good and holesome meate for the sustenaunce of man neyther cause that a Christian man could not eate them as beefe mutton but yet either to eate it at the table of Idols before them or else priuately in his owne house when there was any weake by that thought it an abhominable thing was not lawfull and yet the meate neuerthelesse the good creature of God and which might be receiued with thanksgiuing so the abuse of the surplis and coape c. cannot cause but that they may be vsed as cloth and silke And whereas he saith that they are changed and made of notes of Antichristianitie markes of Christianitie I say that they cannot be changed so by and d cree or commaundement for asmuch as notwithstanding that profession of chaunge the ha t s or men vnto whiche euery man must haue regard vnto are not changed For not so soone as the magistrate will say that these things shall be from hencefoorth vsed as things indifferent foorthwith men do vse them so but those only vse them so which haue knowledge both the ignorant and the weake take them still otherwise Io. Whitgifte Your answer to these learned and famous men is not of any moment at all for The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 answering of T. C. their reasons you answer only with wordes when as indéede their onely wordes for their godlinesse experience and learning sake ought to be of greater credite than your reasons but the aptnesse of your answers I referre to the iudgement of the reader séeing he hath both their words and yours before his eyes This only I note that
which condemned Priuatus Nowe if there were 90. Bishops in one prouince met and yet not all that were in that prouince as may appeare out of the same Epistle all men doe vnderstande that the scope that Cyprians Bishop or Archbishop as you will haue him had was no suche thing as a Dioces or a prouince I could bring infinite testimonies out of Cyprian to proue that the Bishop in his time was nothing else but S. Paules Bishop that is one that had cure and charge of one flocke whiche was so placed as it might be taught of him and ouerseene by him and gouerned by him and of whome in matters perteyning to God it mighte depende Io. Whitgifte Your proofes goe very lowe when you vse suche slender ones the words of Cyprian in that Epistle be these Quod ipsum videmus de diuina authoritate descendere vt 1. Lib. Epi. 4. sacerdos plebe praesente sub omnium oculis delegatur c. The whiche thing we see to discende from the authoritie of God that the Priest be chosen the people beeing present before them all c. What can you else gather of this but that a Priest must be chosen in presence of the people and that then he is sayde to be chosen sub omnium oculis before al their eyes when he is chosen publikely and openly in the sighte of many But what is this to the strayghtning of his charge A man mighte as well reason thus Al the Citizens of Rome were not at Cornelius election therefore he is not Bishop of all the Citie of Rome But to the ende that you maye vnderstande the vanitie of this your assertion and that it may appeare that Cyprian maketh the Bishop in degree to be aboue a Priest also that at the election of the Bishop of Rome moe were present than those of the Citie I will set downe his wordes as they be Lib. 4. Epist. 2. Cypr. lib. 4. Epist. 2. I come nowe vnto the person of our fellowe Cornelius that you may more truely knowe him as well as we not by the lyes of malicious men and backbyters but by the iudgement of God whiche made him Bishop and by the testimonie of his fellow Bishops the whole All the Bishops agreed to Cornelius his election number whereof through all the worlde dyd ioyntly agree For whiche thing did greatly commende our welbeloued Cornelius vnto God and to Christ and his Churche and also to all his fellowe ministers he did not sodenly come to the Bishopricke but beeing promoted by all the ecclesiasticall offyces he ascended to the high dignitie of Priesthoode A Bishop aboue a priest in Cyprians time by all degrees of religion Then afterwarde he neyther desired nor would haue the Bishopricke it selfe neyther as others vse whiche are puffed vp with pride and arrogancie dyd he inuade the See by force but beeing quiet and modest and suche a one as they vse to be whiche are chosen vnto this place by God for the moderation of his chaste conscience and the humblenesse of his naturall and preserued shame fastnesse He dyd not as some men doe vse violence that he might be made Bishop but suffered violence that he mighte by Cornelius chosen by others than y e Romanes compulsion be driuen to receyue the Bishopricke And he was made Bishop of many of our fellowe Bishops whiche were then at Rome and whiche sente very honorable and commendable letters vnto vs of his ordination But Cornelius was made Bishop by the iudgement of God and his Christ by the testimonie almoste of all Clearks by the suffrages of the people whiche was then present and by the Colledge of the auncient Priestes and of good men In these wordes first it is to be noted that he sayth Cornelius was made Bishop Collections out of Cyprian by the testimonie of his fellowe Bishops Quorum numerus vniuersus per totum mundum concordi vnanimitate consensit The whole number whereof through all the worlde did ioyntly agree ▪ Secondly that he was promoted to the highe dignitie of Priesthoode per omnia ecclesiastica officia cunctis religionis gradibus Through all ecclesiasticall offyces ▪ and by all degrees of religion and then afterwarde was made Bishop Thirdly that Cornelius was made Bishop by the iudgement of God and Christ by the testimonie almoste of all Clearkes and by the suffrages of the people whiche was then present and by the Colledge of auncient Priests and good men Howe farre these thinges differ from your collections and howe farre from Cyprians meaning you gather your coniectures let the Reader iudge I haue before sufficiently proued by auncient testimonies that the Bishop of Rome Carthage and other had not one Citie onely to gouerne or one parishe but diuers places whole Prouinces and Countreys as Cyprians owne wordes before rehearsed maketh manifest Wherefore all this you doe but speake of pleasure If you had tolde me in what place Cyprian sayth that out of one Prouince there was 90. Bishops that condemned Priuatus I woulde haue sayde something to it but séeing you haue kepte the place secrete to your selfe you giue your Reader occasion to suspecte eyther that it is forged or else not faythfully alleadged If it be that whiche is lib. 1. epist. 3. then truely antiquum obtines For these be Cyprians words Per Foelicianū Cypr. lib. 1. Epist. 3. autem significaui tibi frater venisse Carthaginem Priuatum veterem baereticum in Pambesitana colonia ante multos ferè annos ob multa grauia delicta 90. episcopora sententiā condemnatū antecessorū etiā nostrorū quod vestrā conscientiam nōlatet Fabiani Donati literis seuerissimè notatum c I haue signified vnto you by Felicianus that Priuatus an olde heretike is come to Carthage beeing condemned in the Citie Pambesia many yeres since for many and greeuous trespasses by the sentence of 90. Bishops and beeing also moste sharply reprehended by the letters of my predecessours Fabianus and Donatus as your conscience knoweth Héere is not one worde of so many Bishops béeing in one Prouince neyther yet any Prouince or Diocesse mentioned wherin they should be Surely this is too much so often to offend in falsifying but be it there were so many Bishops in one prouince what conclude you therof that Bishops then had but one towne or parishe limited vnto them As though there be not Prouinces of that largenesse that they may conteyne so many Bishops yet the seuerall parishes furnished with peculiar pastors Massaeus lib. 16. sayth that there are 160. Bishoprickes subiecte to the Patriarche of Antioche But there can no such thing as you affirme be gathered of Cyprians words neyther shal you euer be able to proue out of Cyprian or any other auncient writer that such Bishops as Cyprian Cornelius were had onely gouernment of one towne or as we call it parishe but the contrarie is most euident as I haue before
that a great parte of the people can not of knowledge tell whether he hath cursed them or blessed them whether he hath read in Latme or in Englishe all the whyche ryseth vpon the word s of ▪ the booke of seruice which are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place for therevpon the minister in saying Morning and Euening prayer sytteth in the Chauncel with hys backe to the people as thoughe he had some secret talke with God whych the people might not heare And herevpon it is likewise that after Morning prayer for saying another nūber of prayers he clymeth vp to the further end of the Chauncel runneth as farre from the people as the wall wyl let hym as though there were some variance betweene the people the minister or as though he were afrayde of some infection of plague in deede it renueth y e memorie of the Leuitical priesthoode which dyd withdrawe him selfe from the people into the place called the holyest place where he talked wyth God and offered for the sinns of the people Io. Whitgifte This nothing toucheth the order or substance of the booke and therefore no sufficient reason agaynst it if it were true But you héerein deale as you haue done in other matters that is corruptly and vntruely For you do not reporte the wordes of Corrupt dealing the booke concerning this matter as they be in déede and it is wonderfull and argueth great impadencie that you are not ashamed to reporte vntruely in so publike a cause The words of the booke be these The Morning and Euening prayer shall be vsed in the accustomed place of the Church Chappell or Chauncell excepte it shall be otherwise determined by the Ordinarie of the place And you leauing out all the rest say that the words of the booke of seruice are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place as though it bounde him of necessitie to the Chauncell which is nothing so But you Errours and isorder maynteyned by falsifying must be borne with your errours and disorders can not otherwise be maynteyned but by falsifying I thinke there are but fewe Churches in Englande where the Bi shops haue not taken a very good order for the place of prayer if any Bishop haue neglected it the fault is in the Bishop not in the booke But still I must desire the Reader to note the weightinesse of the reasons where by you goe about to deface the booke of common prayer Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 2. Likewyse or marriage he commeth backe agayne into the body of the Churche and for baptisme vnto the Churche doore what comelynesse what decencie what edifying is thys Decencie I saye in running and trudging from place to place edifying in standing in that place and a ter that sorte where he can worst be hearde and vnderstanded S. Luke sheweth that in the 〈◊〉 Churche bothe the prayers and preachings and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwyse For he sheweth howe S. Peter sytting amongest the rest to the ende he myghte be the better heard rose and not that onely but that he stoode in the middest of the people that hys voyce mighte as muche as mighte be come indifferently to all theyr ear s and so standing bothe 〈◊〉 and preached Nowe if it be sayde for the Chapters and Letanie there is commaundement giuen th t they should be read in the body of the Church in deede it is true and thereof is easily perceyued thys disorder which is in saying the rest of the prayers partly in the hither end partly in y e urther end of the Chauncel for eeing that those are read in the body of the Church that the people may both heare vnderst nd what is read what should be the cause why the rest should be read further of Unlesse it be that eyther those thyngs are not to be hearde of them or at the least not so necessarie for them to be heard as the other whych are recited in the body or middest of the Churche And if it be further sayde that the booke leaueth that to the discretion of the Ordinarie and that he may reforme it if there be any thyng amisse then it is easily answered agayne that besides that it is agaynst reason that the commoditie and edifying of the Churche should depende vpon the pleasure of one man so that vpon hys eyther good or euill aduyse discretion it should be well or euill with the Church Besydes thys I sa we s e by experience of the disorders which ar in many Churches and Dioceses in thys behalfe howe that if it were lawfull to commit such authoritie vnto one man yet that it is not safe so to doe considering that they haue so euill q tten them selues in their charges and that in a matter the inconuenience whereof is so easily seene and so easily reformed there is notwithstanding so great and so generall an abuse Io. Whitgifte These be passing weyghtie arguments to ouerthrowe the booke and come from a Weighty reasons agaynst the booke déepe and profounde iudgemente If I shoulde vse the lyke you woulde wype them away with scoffing The booke appoynteth that the persons to be married shall come into the body of the Churche with their f iendes and neighbours there to be married and what faulte can you finde in this Is not the middest of the Churche the moste méete place for suche a matter The booke speaketh neyther of the comming backe of the minister nor his going forwarde these be but your iestes and yet muste he goe both backwarde and forwarde if he wil eyther come into the Church or go out of it For baptisme y e booke appoynteth no place but bicause there is no iust cause knowne why the fon e should be remoued therefore the minister dothe stande where that is placed whiche is somewhere in one place somewhere in another for I know diuers plac s where it is in the middest of the Churche some place where it is in the nethermost parte I knowe no place where it standeth at the Churche doore And therfore in saying that for baptisme the minister goeth to the Churche doore you doe but counterfeyte No man denieth but that bothe praying and preaching c. ought to be in that place where it may be best heard of all and therefore the booke dothe prudently leaue it to the discretion of the Bishop But the middest is not the fittest place for that purpose He that standeth in the middest of the Churche hathe some behynde him some before him and some of eche syde of him those whiche be behinde or on the sides can not so well heare as those that be before as experience teacheth in Sermons at the Spittle at the Crosse in Paules and other places Wherefore in my opinion that place in the Churche is moste fittest bothe for praying and preaching where the minister may haue the people before him except the
iudgement what shall become of suche as not onely not preache themselues but deface other men that preache by backbiting and slaundering and spreading abrode false rumours vpon them to discredite both their persons and doctrine and with sectes schismes rent in péeces the Church of Christ and violently plucke downe whatsoeuer other men haue builded O. T. C. these things would be considered in time The seconde Diuision T. C. Pag. 123. Sect. 2. And heere M. Doctor taketh occasion to vtter his stomacke agaynste London ▪ flynging of one syde agaynste the women of the other syde agaynste the Ministers whose diligence bycause it maketh M. Doctors negligence more to appeare as a darke and dus she colour matched with that whiche is cleare and lightsome he doth goe aboute to deface with the vntrue and slaunderous surmyse of loose negligente and vnprofitable preachyng If there be some one such or two in London t is too greate iniurie therefore to charge indefinitely the companye of the ministers of London Besydes that M. Doctor dothe not see howe fyrste he accuseth the ▪ Bishop or euer he beaware bothe in ordeyning suche ministers and not in reforming them beyng so farre out of order and then the Archbishop whiche doth not require this disorder at the Bishops hande 〈◊〉 as he sayeth this is so godlie and heauenly an order to haue one Bishop ouer many ministers and one Archebishop ouer dyuers ▪ Bishops and if we shall esteeme the pythinesse and fastnesse of preachyng ▪ by the frutes as by the knowledge and sear ▪ of God in the people of London and by faythfull and true hearts toward the Prince and the Realme I thynk that that which he termeth 〈◊〉 loose and vnprofitable preachyng wit fal out to be waightyer and to leaue a deeper printe behynde them than those monethly sermons whyche he speaketh of And tte Ministers of London better ministers whiche preache twice a day than those whiche make the words of God nouell and daynties and as M. Latimer pleasantly sayd Strawberies commyng only at certayne tymes of the yeare Io. Whitgifte I speake fyrste of the Authours of the Admonition Then I reporte M. Whithead his saying of dyuers preachers in London whiche if you coulde haue improued I thynke you woulde I knowe there be manye graue learned wyse and go re Preachers in London whyche haue greately profited that place and as instrumentes haue wroughte those good effectes you speake of in the heartes of many But I knowe also there be some others farre vnlyke vnto them in all respects who by their vndiscreate and loose dealyng haue as muche as yeth in them wroughte the contrarie If they haue bene suffered eyther throughe the negligence of Archebishop or Bishop I excuse neyther of them I thinke they haue good cause to take better héed hereafter Touching the women of London I haue not sayde any thyng to their disprayse I knowe a number verie honeste and godlie and I knowe none that is euyll Onely I require that modestie in some of them that beséemeth sober matrones and women pro essyng the Gospell It is not séemely for a woman to speake in the Churche no not that whiche is good muche lesse comely is it for hir to sc lde openly in the streates or to be a common deprauer of others at tables and other meetings There is no cause why I shoulde beare a stomacke 〈◊〉 London whiche place I haue alwayes honoured where I haue many friendes to the whych I haue shewed as many tokens of good will as any one man of my abilitie But if I admonishe some of the Citezens and bidde them take héede that they abuse not the Gospell to serue theyr affections that they make it not a cloke for theyr contentions that they waxe not wearie of it and desire straunge Doctrines that they heape not vp suche Preachers vnto themselues as maye serue theyr humours that they shewe themselues more thankfull for the Gospell the whyche they haue so long receyued that they studye for peace and quietnesse that they grieue not the Prince in séekyng alterations by whome they enioy the pure worde of God true vse of his Sacramentes and syncers woorshyppyng of hym To be shorte if I moue them to brotherly loue true obedience to theyr Superiours and hatred of sectes and schismes whervnto diuers of them be too much drawne by such as you are Do I vtter my stomacke agaynst them If eyther they or you take it so ▪ then I answere that I must obey God rather than man and preferre my Prince before all my friendes But this is a péece of your Rhetorike to drawe into hatred which I doubt not the godlie will easyly espie and iudge of your spirite accordingly The thirde Diuision Admonition Nay some in the fulnesse of their blasphemie haue sayde it that muche preachyng bryngeth the worde of God into contempt and that foure preachers were inough for all London so farre are they from thinking it necessarie seeking that euery congregation should haue a faithfull pastor Answere to the Admonition Pag. 167. Sect. 2. 3. If any haue mislyked often preachyng or hane sayde that muche Uerball preachers preachyng bryngeth the worde of God into contempte or that foure preachers were inough for all London they are to be blamed and that iustely and not the booke for it willeth no man to say so But if any hath sayd that some of those which vse to preach often by their loose negligente verball and vnlearned Sermons haue brought the worde of God into contempte or that foure godlie learned pithy diligent and discreete preachers might do more good in London than fortie contentious vnlearned verball and rashe Preachers they haue sayde truely and their saying myghte well be iustifyed Howbeit take heede that you slaunder no man or vniustly seeke the discredite of any whylest you seeke to vtter youre malice against that godlie booke None that fauoureth Gods word as I thinke denyeth that hearing the worde of God is the vsuall and ordinarie meanes whereby God vseth to woorke faythe in vs And that therfore Preachers be necessarie T. C. Page 124. Lin. 10. Of this thing M. Doctor speaketh agayne in the. 167. page but to this effect altogether and almoste in the same wordes Io. Whitgifte And yet is there somthing there that would haue bin answered but I take that as graunted whiche is not answered The fourth Diuision Admonition The seuententh and eightenth Then nothing taught but Gods word now princes pleasures mēs deuises Popish ceremonies and Antichristian rites in publike pulpits defended Then they sought (p) Phil. 2. 20. 21. them now they seeke theyrs Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 84. Sect. 3. 4. 5. It had bin wel to let vs vnderstand what those Princes pleasures The Churche of Englande slaundered by the Admonitors be what mens deuises what Popish ceremonies what Antichristiā rites for nowe you haue but slandered both the Prince the whole state of religion in this
beware of this doctrine the whiche vnlesse I proue to be the selfe same with the Papistes in substance let me susteine that punishement that is due vnto them whome I burden charge with forgetfulnes of dutie in this poynt Saunders in that trayterous booke of his wryteth thus That hath deceiued many Saunders the Rep er agree bicause they see kings to be Christians and to rule ouer Christians for they knowe not or at the least they will not knowe what difference there is whether thou rule ouer a Christian in that he is a Christian or in that he is a man For a king ruleth ouer Christian men but not Saunders bicause they bee Christians but bicause they bee men and bicause byshoppss be men in that respect he ruleth also ouer them c. And. T. C. in his Reply pag. 35. writeth on this Pag. 5. in the miast manner saying That the godlye Magistrate is the head of the common wealth but not of the churche meaning that particular churche conteyned in the common wealth whereof he is gouernour and in the same page he saith that the Christian Magistrate is but only a member of that particular churche And pag 145. he sayeth That the Prynce may well bee Pag. 〈◊〉 Sed 1. Monarche immediatly betwene God and the common wealth and not betwene God the church in that common wealth or any singular member in the church and in this place he would haue the ciuill Magistrate no more to intermedle with making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders than the ecclesiasticall minister should deale with ciuill diuers such nippes and pinches he hath at the ciuill Magistrate speaking no other wyse of hym than of a Turke or a Iewe and giuing him no more authoritie in the church of Christe and ouer Christians than if hee were the great Turke or wicked Nero. But I answere them bothe with the wordes of M. Musculus in his common places Titu de Magistratu Let Ethnickes and infidels whiche liue not in the vnitie of truthe but in the confusion of errour haue their diuers lawes Musculus and magistrates some prophane and some holy whose whole life is prophane whose religion is but ecclesiasticall superstition and in the temple only Christian people are altogether hely and dedicated to the name of Christe not in temples only and ecclesiasticall rites but in their whole life in euery place at al times in all things in al deedes and studies that according to the admonitiō of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eate or drinke or whatsoeuer he doth all may be done to the glory of God and Col. 3. whatsoeuer he doth in woorde or in deede hee doe it in the name of the Lorde c. VVherefore that distinction of Ecclesiasticall prophane lawes hath no place in it bicause there is nothing in it that is prophane seeing it is a people holy to the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie is holy his lawes are holy his sword is holy a reuenger of the wicked and vngodly whereby he serueth the Lorde being the chiefe lawmaker and iudge our members are the members of Christ and our bodies are the bodies of the holy ghost we are willed to glorifie God not in our spirit onely but in our bodie also 1. Cor. 6. Therefore this be sarre 〈◊〉 authoritie Pap t s giue to the 〈◊〉 in ec 〈◊〉 from the church of Christ that it should be partly holy and partly prophane holy before and prophane behinde lyke vnto an Idoll which sheweth beautifull before and behinde is full of filth and Spyders webbes Againe the Papistes giue to the Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters Potestatem facti and not iuris that is to sée those lawes executed and put in practise that the Pope and his Clergie shall make and to bée as it were their executioner but not to make any lawes or orders in Ecclesiastical matters for so writeth Saunders in his book before named Fol. 64. Although I doe not denye but that the knowledge of a Saunders facte that belongeth to the ecclesiasticall lawe may be committed to kings and Magistrates and before the ecclesiastical cause be determined the king may vse his authoritie to this end that there may be some quiet place prepared where the bishops shall cōsulte and that the bishops be called to the same place at a certein day and that in the meane time while the matter is in determining cōmon peace may be preserued euen among the priests them selues to conclude after the cause be determined and iudged by the priests the king may punishe him with the sworde which he carieth not in vaine or by some other corporall punishmēt which shal refuse to obey the sentence of the priests Therfore we do not deny but that kings haue something to do both before and at and after the iudgements of the bishops but in the office of iudging they haue no more to do than other priuate persons for they may well giue councell and declare what they thinke but they may not determine or define what Gods lawes or the ecclesiastical lawe doth require And doth not T. C. in this place affirme the Potestas facti not iuris ascribed to the magistrates same onely herein he séemeth something to differ y t if the ecclesiastical gouernours shall make any orders vnmeete the magistrate may driue them to better But what if they saye they be méete will stand to it as you do now in this fonde platforme will they not crye out vpon the magistrate saye that he is a persecutour a mainteiner of an vnlawfull authoritie of that which is against the glorie of God if he withstande thē as the authours of the seconde Admonition do in playne termes saying For though the orders be and ought to be drawen out of the booke of God yet it is her Maiestie that by her princely 2. Admonit pag. 60. authoritie should see euery of these thyngs put in practise and punyshe those that neglect them making lawes therefore for the churche may keepe those orders but neuer in peace except the comfortable and blessed assistance of the states and gouernours imcke in to see them in their countreis and vsed for otherwyse the church maye and must keepe Gods orders but alwaies in troubles and persecution which is like to light vpon vs except a reformation of religion or a direct prouiso for vs bee made for surely only this is God his order and ought to be vsed in his churche so that in conscience we are forced to speake for it and to vse it and in conscience and in reuerence of God we are forced to speake as we do of that reformation which we nowe vse not so much for ought else as to set out the deformities thereof that we might thinke vpon the amending of them M. Musculus in the booke and title before recited setteth out this Popish
of Sarisburie his defense of the Apologie agaynst Maister Harding my L. of Winchesters answere to Master Fecknam Master Nowels bookes agaynst Dorman in all which this matter is very learnedly and painefully handled Admonition Is a reformation good for Fraunce and can it be euill for England is discipline meete for Scotlande and is it vnprofitable for this Realme Surely God hath set these examples before your eyes to encourage you to goe forwarde to a thorow and a speedie reformation You may not do as heretofore you haue done patche and peece nay rather goe backwarde and neuer labour to (t) Heb. 6. 1. contende to perfection But altogither remoue whole Antichrist bothe head body braunche and perfectly plant that puritie of the worde that simplicitie of the sacraments and that seueritie of discipl ne which Christ hath commaunded and commended to his church Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 138. Sect. 1. Hathe there beene no reformation in this Church of Englande sithence Unthankfulnesse of the Ad monitors the Queenes Maiesties reygne What say you to the abolishing of the vsurped power of the Bishop of Rome what say you to the banishing of the Masse Nay what say you to the puritie of doctrine in all poynts perteyning to saluation Is this no reformation with you O intollerable vnthankfulnesse T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 1. 2. The other poynt is in the. 138. page where he most vntruly and standerously chargeth the Authors of the Admonition and maketh wonderfull outcries as though they should denie that there had beene any reformation at all sithence the time that the Queenes Maiestie began to reigne manifestly contrarie not only to their meaning but also to their very words which appeareth in that they moue to a through reformation and to contende or to labour to perfection denying onely that the reformation which hath beene made in hir Maiesties dayes is through and perfect We confesse willingly that next vnto the Lorde God that euery one of vs is moste deepely bounde to hir Maiestie whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to deliuer his churche heere out of the spirituall Egypt of Poperie and the common wealth also and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of strangers whervnto it was so neere This I saye we willingly confesse before men and do in our prayers dayly giue most humble thanks to God therfore And by this humble sute and earnest desire which we haue for further reformation we are so farre from vnthankfulnesse vnto hir Maiestie that wee thereby desire the heape of hir felicitie and the establishment of hir Royall throne amongst vs whyche then shall be moste sure and vnremoued when our Sauiour Christ sytteth wholly and fully not onely in his chayre to teache but also in his throne to rule not alone in the heartes of euery one by his spirite but also generally and in the visible gouernment of his churche by those lawes of discipline which he hath prescribed Io. Whitgifte The words of the Admonition page 137. be these Is a reformation good for Fraimce The Admonitors and the Replyer mislike our reformation almost wholly c. and can it be euill for Englande is discipline meete for Scotlande c. and is it vnprofitable for this Realme To this I answering say hathe there beene no reformation in the Church of Englande since the Queenes Maiesties reigne c. what wonderfull outeryes these be or howe vntrue slaunders let the discrete Reader iudge Doth not he that sayth is a reformation good for Fraunce and can it be euill for Englande insinuate that there is no reformation in Englande In the same place they say that hitherto we haue but patched and peeced my rather gone backwarde Moreouer to what ende dothe their booke tende but to the defacing of this reformation What is it that eyther they or you commende or lyke in this Churche nay what is it that you mislike not For to the sinceritie of doctrine as it appeareth you haue little regarde all things else you vtterly cast downe neyther the authoritie of the Prince the ministerie the gouernment of the Churche the administration of the Sacraments the ceremonies the discipline the forme or matter of publike prayers nor The good they acknowledge of the Queene dissembled almoste any thing else can please you and howsoeuer nowe in wordes you confesse that you are most deepely bounde vnto hir Maiestie c. yet bothe in tongue and in deede dyners of you declare that your meaning is nothing lesse For why doe you then so vnorderly so vndoubtedly so spitefully publikely and priuately in worde and in wryting deface hir procéedings slaunder hir gouernment depraue the reformation that she hathe made with sectes and schismes deuide the Realme set dissention among the people make the Papists more stubborne driue those backe that were welnighe persuaded thrust a misliking of the state into the hearts of many Protestantes encourage hir aduersaries separate hir faythfull subiectes one from another and greatly disquiet hir selfe But I will not prosecute this matter onely I desire of God most hartily that it would please him to worke that minde and affection in you in deede that becommeth dutifull subiects and quiet members of the Churche Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 138. Sect. 1. Englande is not bounde to the example eyther of Fraunce or Englande is not bounde to other Churches for examples Scotlande I woulde they bothe were if it pleased God touching Religion in that state and condition that Englande is I woulde Antichriste were as farre from them remoued The Lorde make vs thankfull and continue this reformation we haue and graunt peace to his Church and eyther couuert the hearts of those that be enimies vnto it or remoue them T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 3. Pag. 156. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor would bring vs into a foolish paradise of our selues as thoughe we neede not to learne any thing at the churches of Fraunce and Scotland he should haue vnderstanded that as we haue bin vnto them in example and haue prouoked them to follow vs so the Lord will haue vs also profite and be prouoked by their example and so be mutual helpes one to an other and stirre vp our selues with the admonition that our sauiour Christe stirred vp his Apostles that oftentimes those that are first are not forwardest but are ouerrunne of others that come after And wheras he would (*) A slanderous and malicious vntruthe priuily pinche at the reformation there for so muche as the Lorde hathe Mat. 20. humbled the one and exerciseth the other by ciuill warres and troubles he should haue in steade of rocking vs a sleape in our securitie put vs in remembrance of Gods scourges which hang ouer vs and of Gods great patience that still tarrieth for our repentance and that if he haue punished that people of his which haue suffered so muche for the profession of the gospell and which went with so
all learned men both liuing dead They may well be sayde to haue sealed this booke wyth their bloud How they sea led the booke with their bloud bicause they were martyred for that religion that is conteyned in this booke and according to the which this booke was framed and if they were condemned for improuing the articles drawne out of the Masse booke ▪ as you say why maye it not be likewise affirmed that they receyued the sentence of condemnation for approuing the Articles conteyned in the Communion booke I know the booke they dyed for was the booke of God yet did not the aduersarie pretende that but the articles drawne out of this and suche like bookes grounded vpon the worde and booke of God Name one of them who at the time of his death or in y e time of his imprisonmēt declared openly his misliking of certayne things in this booke I can shew you the contrarie That notable vessell of God for learning zeale and vertue inferiour to none of our M. Ridleys testimonie of the booke of cōmon prayer age Master Ridley Bishop of London in his last farewell as it is called looking dayly and hourely when he should go to the stake giueth this testimonie of this same booke of common prayers the whiche the Churche of Englande nowe vseth and you so contemptuously reiect This Churche sayth he of Englande had of late of the M. Foxe infinite goodnesse and abundant grace of almightie God great substance great riches of heauenly treasure plentie of Gods true and sincere worde the true and vvholsome administration of Christes holy sacraments the whole profession of Christes religion truely and playnely set foorth in baptisme the playne declaration and vnderstanding of the same taught in the holy ▪ Catechisme to haue bin learned of all true Christians This Church had also a true and sincere forme and maner of the Lords supper wherin according to Iesus Christes ordināce holy institution Christes cōmaundements were executed and done For vpon the bread and wine set vpon the Lords table thāks were giuen the commemoration of the Lords death was had the bread in the remembrance of Christes body torne vpon the crosse was broken and the cuppe in remembrance of Christes bloud was distributed and both communicated vnto all that were present and woulde receyue them and also they were exhorted of the minister so to do All was done openly in the vulgare tongue so that euery thing mighte be bothe easily heard and playnely vnderstoode of all the people to Gods high glory and the edification of the whole Church This Church had of late the whole diuine seruice all common and publike prayers ordeyned to be sayde and heard in the common congregarion not onely formed and fashioned to the true vayne of the holy Scripture but also set foorth according to the commaundement of the Lorde and S. Paules doctrine for the peoples edification in their vulgar tongue But I knowe his testimonie shall weigh with you as all other mens doe howbeit I trust it will pearce the hearts of the godly Neyther is this to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of God when the martyrdome of men is brought into beare witnesse vnto the truthe of God Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 149. Sect. vlt. 150. Sect. 1. 2. The vnperfectnesse of this booke and such things in the fame as be culled and picked out of that popishe dunghill the Masse booke with the contents therein that be agaynst the worde of God shall appeare I am sure in your seuerall reasons for it is not sufficient for you barely to saye so without witte learning or reason This you know right wel that in so saying you make the Papists Aduantage gi uen to the papistes by the Admonitours leape for ioye bicause they haue gotten suche companions to assaulte this booke whylest they rest them lye as it were in sleepe O that the wyse men of this realme suche I meane as be in authoritie see not this Popishe practise and seeke not with more earnestnesse to preuent it Will ye suffer the Papists to gather strength and to multiplie by tollerating such Libellers vnder the pretēce of reformatiō to discredite so muche as lyeth in them yea to ouerthrow the whole state and substance of religion in this Churche Bee not secure but watche and remember the beginning and encrease of the Anabaptistes of late in Germanie whiche I haue described in my Preface to this booke You saye that you can not but much maruell at the craftie wilynesse of those men whose partes it had beene first to haue proued eache and euery content therin to be agreable to Gods word c. Nay surely but it were your parts rather to proue The apponēt must proue by rules of Logike that there is something therein contrarie or not agreable to Gods worde For such as be learned and knowe the manner of reasoning say that the Opponent must proue or improue and not the answerer They stande to the defense and mayntenance of the booke you seeke to ouerthrowe it it is your partes therfore to iustifie your assertions by reasons and arguments T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. For the Papistes triumphe I haue answered before and I will not striue about the Goates 〈◊〉 who is the apponent and who the respondent in this difference Io. Whitgifte Thus you passe all this ouer in silence for I doe not remember where you haue answered one worde to it Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition They should first proue by the worde of God that a reading seruice going before and with the administration of the sacraments is according to the worde of God that wafer cakes for theyr bread when they minister it surplesse and cope to doe it in churching of women comming in vayles abuong the Psalme to hir I haue lifted vp mine eyes vnto the hilles c. and suche other Psal. 120. foolishe things are agreable to the written worde of the almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 151. Sect. 2. 152. Sect 1. I doe not well vnderstande your meaning would you haue vs to proue that to reade prayers before and with the administration of The order of prayers in the Communion booke agreable to y e scripture the sacraments is according to the worde of God In deede in the booke of seruice there is first appoynted to be read some one or two profitable sentences mouing eyther to prayer or to repentance after followeth a generall confession then the Lords prayer and certayne Psalmes nexte certayne chapters out of the olde and newe Testamente c. laste of all the administration of the sacramente If you aske me of the sentences they be scripture If of the Lordes prayer Psalmes and chapters they be scripture also If of the sacrament of the Supper it is according to scripture Matth. 26. Marke 14. Luke 22. 1. Cor. 11. If of
made with scraping the sée vpon the ground as it is vsed by them in derision so is it of it selfe ridiculeus and not worthie to be answered besides it is vntrue for it hindereth no more the worde béeing read than hawking and spitting bindereth the same being preached But Lorde how sparing are you of time that will not spare so much as may serue a man to bow his knée in Well it is but a pretence to helpe out with a merie argument for I dare say neyther they nor you are so vndiscrete as to vse it in good sadnesse Their second reason hash some more grauitie in it though not much more weight and your addition that it may breede a daungerous opinion of the inequalitie eyther of the Sanne of God with the other persons or of the Gospell with other Scriptures is but supposed and a man may suppose the Moone to be made of gréene chéese That gesture at the name of Iesus hath hitherto continued in the Church many hundred yeares and yet neuer any was heard tell of that fell into eyther of these opinions by the meanes thereof One reason that moued Christians in the beginning the rather to bow at the Why Christians bowed at the name of Iesus name of Iesus than at any other name of God was bicause this name was most hated and most contemned of the wicked Iewes and other persecutors of such as professed the name of Iesus for the other names of God they had in reuerence but this they could not abide wherefore the Christians to signifie their fayth in Iesus and theyr obedience vnto him and to confute by open gesture the wicked opinion of the Iewes and other infidels vsed to doe bodily reuerence at all tymes when they heard the name of Iesus but especially when the Gospell was read which conteyned that glad tydings of saluation which is procured vnto man by Christ Iesus wherevpon also he is called Iesus that is a Sauior Neyther can it be agaynst christianitie to shewe bodily reuerence when he is named by whom not onely all the spirituall enimies of mankinde are subdued but also the faythfull be made partakers of the kingdome of heauen Wherefore as I binde no man of necessitie to this reuerence at the name of Iesus so do I not iudge any man that hauing knowledge vseth the same for I will not holster and defende superstitious ignorance It must néedes be malicious dealing to charge the common order and booke of publike prayer with particular faults of priuate men and places If you knowe where these abuses be and will complaine of them either to the Archbishop or Bishop I dare say they will reforme them There is better reason why one Pastor may haue two benefices than one Curate serue in two cures for ministring of the Sacraments and reading publike prayers dayly doth require more bodily attendance than the preaching of the worde A man may better in one day preach at two Churches than he can at them both minister the Sacraments and celebrate publike prayers That Pastor that hath two benefices and two good Curates at them both may with much more facilitie do his dutie both towardes his Churches particularly and the whole Church generally Of Cathedrall Churches c. Tract 22. Admonition As for Organs and curi ns singing though they be proper to popish dennes I meane to Cathedrall Churches yet some others also must haue them The Queenes Chappell and these Churches must be paterns and presidents to the people of all superstitions Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 206. Sect. 1. Here it pleaseth you to call Cathedrall Churches Popish dennes As hap is your wordes are no slaunder But this bragge I will make of Cathedrall Churches and such as be nowe in them I will offer vnto you a dozen Cathedrall Churches in England which I my selfe do know the worst whereof in learning shall encounter with al Papistes Puritanes Anabaptists and what other sectes soeuer in Englande for the defense of religion now professed eyther by worde or wryting Without arrogancie be it spoken I thinke there was neuer time wherein these Churches were better furnished with wise learned and godly men than they be at this day I speake not this boastingly but to Gods glorie the honour of the Prince the comfort of the godly and the shame of slaunderous Papistes and disdainfull Schismatikes Your slaunderous speech of the Queenes Maiesties Chappell which you also say to be a patterne and president to the people of all superstitions is rather seuerely to be punished than with words to be confuted T. C. Page 163. tovvardes the ende Pag 164. Sect. 1. As for the speach of the cathedrall Churches either it is nothing or else it is false For if he say that there is eyther in all those cathedrall Churches one or in euerie of those 12. churches one which is able to confute Papists c. What great thing sayth he which sayth no more of all these Churches than is to be founde in one poore house of the vniuersitie whose rentes are scarce 300. pounde by yeare Yea what hath he sayde of them which was not to be founde in them euen in Queene Maries tyme when there was yet some one almost in euery Church which for feare dissembling was able notwithstanding to confute the Papists Anabaptists Puritanes And if he meane that in those twelue houses the worst of the Prebendaries are able to defende the truth agaynst all Papists c. all men do knowe the vntruth of it so that although this sentence be very doubtfully put forth yet howe so euer it be taken it is as M. Doctor hath rightly termed it a meere bragge And yet I doubt not and a well assured that there be diuerse godly learned men which haue liuings in those places but for all that they ceasse not therefore to be dennes of loyterers and idle persons whilst there are nourished there some which serue for no profitable vse in the Church theyr offices being such as bring no commoditie but rather hurt of which number certame are which the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the colour of their Prebendes there absent themselues from them and that which they spoyle and rauen in other places there they spend and make good cheere with and therfore not without good cause called dennes Finally there being nothing there which might not be much better applyed and to the greater commoditie of the Church whilst they might be turned into Colledges where yong men might be brought vp in good learning and made fit for the serutce of the Church and common wealth the vniuersities being not able to receyue that number of schollers wherwith there neede may be supplyed And where M. D. sayth that that which is spoken of the Queenes maiesties chappell is worthie rather to be punished than confuted if so be that these be abuses the example of them in hir matesties
it abroade gather disciples and make a new secte in shorte time we shal haue so many sectes and factions that Christe which scarce with greate payne and labor is brought to vnitie in euery church should be deuided againe into many partes VVherefore as you haue singularelie and vvith greate vvisdome and labour alreadie restored the true religion of Christe and banished all superstition and erroneous doctrine So likewise as the same Zuinglius sayeth in those perillous times wherein Satan seketh so busilie to In his epistle before his book de Baptismo entrap vs so that with newe cōtentions about external thinges he goeth about to trouble those whome the sworde of persecution eyther moued not or terrified not look well about you note the craftes and subtilties of them take hede of the pestilent windes of diuers doctrine let none trouble the gospell amongst you or set you at strife and variaunce And remember that as the streame that commeth dovvne from the highe mountaines being caused by much rayne and snovve taking eueriething that it meteth vvith before it the further it goeth the greater strengthe and the more aboundance of vvater it gathereth and first remoueth out of their places small stones after vvith greater violence casteth dovvne strong bridges yea huge and mightie rockes and encreaseth to that strength that nothing be it of neuer so greate force can resist or vvithstand it and in the end leueth nothing else behinde it quà m inutilem luctum quaerelas inanes miseram vastatorum agrorum segetum formam but vnprofitable mourning vaine complaintes and a miserable forme of the spoiled fieldes euen so contentionum pestis impia haeresis eodem modo progrediens non quicquam aliud quà m turpem calamito sam rerum faciem in florentissimo antè ecclesiae agro post se relinquit The plague of contention and wicked heresie proceding in like manner leaueth nothing after it but a miserable and pitifull face and shew of thinges in that place which was before the flourishing fielde of the church Consider vvhat the vviseman sayeth Prouerb 17. the beginning of stryfe is as one that openeth the waters It had bene vvell if the beginning had bene vvithstanded but seing that vvas neglected and rather by some furthered than stopped Yet novv it is time to make vp the breache This is sufficiēt to you vvhose vvisdome and carefulnesse is vvell knovvne to all those that be not vvith sinister affection blinded Those that be in the Ecclesiasticall state and desirous to kepe the peace of the Churche I haue onlie to admonishe that they be not discouraged from doing their duties bicause of the slaunderous reportes and vnchristian tauntes and contumelies that our vnquiet brethren lade them vvith knovving that it hath bene the vsuall practise of all sectaries and especiallie of Anabaptistes vvho counte them all as vvicked and vngodlie as vvorldlinges and men pleasers as idle and slouthfull that conspire not vvith them in their confused platforme I maye vse the same exhortation to you that M. Zuinglius vsed in the like time Nec quicquam vos moueant atroces illaecalumniae c. Let not those bitter reproches Zuinglius 〈◊〉 Ecclesiast and cauilling speaches wherewith the Anabaptistes and others studious of contention and discorde oppresse you moue you any thing at all bicause you rather followe Christ than them for although they call you wicked and infidels yet your selues best know what your cōfidence in God is and what is your meaning and purpose so that so often as they accuse you of impietie or of infidelitie so ofte do they minister manifest proofes vnto you that their spirite procedeth from the father of lyes And marueile not at those bitter contentions you knovve it to be true that the same Zuinglius also sayeth Nec enim aliud est communis illius hostis nostri ingenium c. This is the subtil e of our common enimie this is his manner herevnto doth he bend him selfe whollie and sleepeth not that as sone as the lord hath reuealed the light of his worde he also by and by soweth darnell this do almost all the epistles of S. Paule teach vs wherein it is manifestlie declared that there hath bene alwayes some men Pietatis simulatores potiùs quà m cultores rather feyners of holynes than embracers of it who for certaine externall and vnprofitable thinges doubt not to laye as it were greuous stumbling blockes to the doctrine of the gospell Onlie let vs be diligent in our vocation earnest against all kinde of enimies feruent in prayers for the preseruation of the Queenes maiestie and for the peace of the Church vvith the good successe of the Gospell and vigilant that errors be not published vvithout controlement and God vvill ere it be long if our sinnes deserue not the contrarie giue peace to this Church as he hath done to other disturbed in like manner To conclude I do charge all men before God and his Angells as they vvil ansvvere at the daye of iudgement that vnder the pretence of zeale they seeke not the spoyle of the Church vnder the colour of perfection they vvorke not confusion vnder the cloake of simplicitie they couer not pride ambition vayneglorie arrogancie vnder the outvvarde shevve of godlinesse they nourish not contempt of magistrates popularitie Anabaptistrie and sundrie others pernicious and pestilent errors The Lord make vs thankful for his infinite mercies and singular goodnesse bestovved vpon vs in thus long continuing his gospell preseruing our most gracious and louing Queene and ouerthrovving all the conspiracies and deuises that the diuell hath hetherto inuented to molest this state and Church ¶ A note of such dangerous pointes of doctrine as are auouched by T. C. in his Replie and quoted as they are to be founde in this Booke HE sayth that Certeine of the things which we stande vpon are suche as if euery heare of out heade were a life we ought to aforde them for the defense of them whereby he woulde insinuate that this Church of England doth mainteine some dānable doctrine pag. 44. 2 He sayth that if the Church be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outwarde pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted whiche smelleth of an Anabaptisticall fansie pag. 50. 3 He affirmeth that many things are both commaunded and forbidden of which there is no expresse mention in the word which are as necessarily to be followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made which soundeth to the confirmation of the very foundation of all Papistrie pag. 77. 4 He holdeth that the doctrine of free will is not repugnant to saluation and yet is it a doctrine cleane contrarie to frée iustification by Christe pag. 82. 5 He saythe that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for our saluation which is a notorious error pag. 103. 6 He vtterly denyeth that any magistrate can faue the life of blasphemers contemptuous and stubborne I dolaters
of so many good kings so many hundreth yeares to haue omitted the feastes of Tabernacles expressely by God commaunded Although I do not denie but suche men also may sometimes be ouerséene in some points but neither can you proue that they were deceiued in any substantiall point of doctrine neither yet if they were is this place aptly or truly alleadged The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 8. The dignitie also and high estate of those which are not so earnest in this cause can not hinder it if we consider the wisedome of God almost from time to time to consist and to shew it selfe most in setting foorth his truth by the simpler and weaker sort by cōtemptible and weake instruments 1. Cor. I. by things of no valew to the end that whē al men see the basenesse and rudenesse of the instrument they might the more wonder at the wisedome and power of the artificer which with so weake and foolish instruments bringeth to passe so wise and mightie things And if mē will with such an eye of fiesh looke vpon matters they shal condemne that excellent reformation made vnder the Godly king * Iosias is here alleadged for Ezechias Iosias which the holy Ghost doth so highly cōmēd In which it is witnessed that the (1) This place is not right interpreted Leuites 2. Chro. which were a degree vnder the priests were more forward and more zelous than the priests 29. Chap. themselues Yea wherein it is witnessed that the people were yet more earnest and more willing 2. Chro. than either the Leuites or the priests which thing if euer is verefyed in our time For whē (2) A manifest flatterie and the scripture abused to coloure it I cōsider the zeale for religion which sheweth it selfe in many as well of the nobilitie 30. Chap. and gentrie of this realme as of the people their care to continue it and aduaunce it their voluntary charges to mainteine it their liberalitie towards them which bend themselues that way as I do thereby conceiue some hope of the fauorable countenaunce and cōtinuaunce of Gods goodnesse towards vs So I cannot be but ashamed of mine owne slackensse and afraid of the displeasure of the Lorde for that those whose proper worke this is especially and which shoulde beare the standard and carrie the torch vnto the rest are so cold and so carelesse in these matters of the Lord. Io. Whitgifte I knowe none among vs which in the respect of his dignitie and high estate séeketh or desireth to be preferred or beleued before you but in the respect of the cause which is the peace of the Church suppression of schismes and the truth it selfe No man denieth but God of his wisedome in the beginning of the Church of Christ poured God vseth not the simple only or alwayes to set foorthe his truth out his gifts more plenteously vpon the simpler contemptible and weaker sorte and that he choosed for his Apostles fishermen tollegatherers and ignorant persons lest that shoulde be ascribed to the wit eloquence and learning of man which commeth only of the goodnesse might and power of God as the Apostle plainly declareth 1. Cor. 1. 2. But will you therefore conclude that truth zeale and godlinesse remayneth either only or especially in the simple rude and ignorant sort and make thys your conclusion the learned the honorable men of great countenance or knowledge be of this or that opinion Ergo it is not true Or the simple rude and ignorant people ar thus and thus perswaded Ergo they must be followed or to the like effect Uerely this were to reason as the Franciscan friers do to excuse their ignorance Apostoli nesciebant literas ergo Franciscanis non est opus literis And like some other phantastical persons also which thinke that no learned rich or honorable man shall be saued but only beggers and such as be ignorant as master Gualter testifyeth in his commentaries vpon 1. Cor. 1. Gual in 1. Cor. I. hom 7. You know as I suppose that this place of the. 1. Cor. 1. quoted in your margent doth not gather any suche conclusion that therefore the doctrine is not true bycause Princes nobles wise and learned men c. do allow of it or therefore it is true bycause it pleaseth the simple rude and ignorant people For Nicodemus Ioseph Lazarus Betha Sergius Paulus Dionisius Areopagita Crispus Gaius Erastus with diuers others were politique wise welthy learned and honorable men and the Prophete Esay saithe That kings and Queenes shall be the nursing fathers and mothers the defenders and mainteiners of the Churche And Bullinger in his cōmentaries vpō Esay 49. this place doth thus expounde it He speaketh of the first calling especially wherein fishermen Bull. in 1. Co. I. and Idiots were especially called to the preaching of the Gospell For no man can denie but that after the Gospell was confirmed in the world the best learned imbraced the truth For first shepherds declared that Christ was borne then the Magi that is the wise men of the East came to salute him with gifts Wherefore I pray you let not the wealthe calling or dignitie which you thinke we haue preiudice our cause The simple and plaine meaning of the place is that God in his electing to eternall life hath neyther respect to nobilitie learning riches or any such thing I might héere againe trippe you for alleadging Iosias in stead of Ezechias and say that you had not read the Scriptures or that you vsed other mens notes and so dallie with you as you vse to do with others But I will leaue such kind of gibes to brabling Sophisters in the schooles thinke that it was some light ouersight which in such a case may sometimes happen to him that is most circumspect Your collection vpon that place 2. Chro. 29. and. 30. I can not as yet allowe vntill I be better instructed therein for wheras you saye that it is there witnessed that the Leuites which were a degree vnder the Priestes were more forward and more zelous than the Priests themselues and the people more earnest and more willing than eyther the Leuites or the Priests I sée not how you can gather any suche thing out of either of these two Chapters for if there be any sentence to gather it of in the. 29. Chap. it is the. 34. verse which although in some translation it séeme to insinuate some such thing yet if credite may be giuen to those that be notable learned men and very wel séene in the Hebrue song the meaning of that place is nothing lesse Pellicane translateth the words thus Leuitae quippe faciliori ritu sanctificantur quam sacerdotes For the Leuites were sooner or easyer sanctifyed than the priests which he expoundeth more plainly in hys Pel. in 2. Chr. 29. commentaries saying Intelligitur sacerdotum numerum imminutum fuisse c. It is to bee vnderstanded that the number of
the state as they do then truly haue they to consider of such disturbers of the peace of the Church and according to their office and duty prouide a conueniente remedy for them knowing that it is the extreame refuge of Satan when by other meanes he cannot then to séeke the ouerthrow of the Gospell thorow contention about externall things The Epist. of T. C. Sect. II. An other exception against the fauorers of this cause is taken for that they propounde it out of time which is that the Jewes said that the time was not yet come to builde the Lords house but it is knowne what the Prophet answered And if no time wer vnseasonable in that kind of material building wherin there be some times as of sommer more opportune and fit than others how can there be any vntimely building in this spiritual house where as long as it is called to day men are commanded to further this worke And as for those which say we come to late that this shoulde haue bin done in the beginning and can not now be done without the ouerthrow of all for mending of a peece they do little consider that S. Paule compareth that which is good in the buylding vnto golde and siluer and precious stones and that whiche is euill layde vpon the foundation vnto stubble and hey and woode Likewise therfore as the stubble the hey the wood be easily by the fyre consumed without any losse vnto the gold or siluer or precious stones so the corrupt thynges in this buylding may be easily taken away without any hurt or hinderaunce vnto that whiche is pure and sounde And if they put such confidence in this similitude as that they will therby without any testimonie of the worde of God stay the further buylding or correcting the faultes of the house of the Lorde which by his manifest commaundement ought to be done with all spede then besides that they be verie vncunning buylders which can not mende the faults without ouerthrowe of al especially when as the fault is not in the foundation they must remember that as the mean which is vsed to gather the children of God is called a building so it is called a planting And therfore as dead twigs riotous or superfluous branches or what soeuer hindereth the growth of the vine tree may be cut of without rooting vp the vine so the vnprofitable things of the Church may be taken away without any ouerthrow of those things which are wel established And seeing that Christ and Beliall can not agree it is strange that the pure doctrine of the one and the corruptions of the other should cleaue so fast together that pure doctrine can not be with hir safetie seuered from the corruptions when as they are rather lyke vnto that parte of Daniels image which was compounded of claye and iron and therfore coulde not cleaue or sticke one with an other Io. Whitgifte They did not only propound it out of time after the Parliament was ended but out of order also that is in the maner of a libell with false allegations and applications of the Scriptures opprobrious speaches and slaunders not to reforme but to deforme the Church and to confound al. The rest in this part is Petitio principij the petition of the principle for you take that as confessed true which will not be graunted vnto you as shall more at large hereafter appeare The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 12. It is further sayd that the setters forward of this cause are contentious and in mouing questions giue occasion to the Papistes of staundering the religion and to the weake of offence But if it be founde to be both true which is propounded and a thing necessarie about whiche we contende then hath this accusation no ground to stand en For peace is commended to vs with these conditions if it be possible if it lye in vs. Now it is not possible it lyeth not in vs to conceale the Rom. 1 ▪ Cor. 10. truth we can doe nothing against it but for it It is a prophane saying of a prophane man that an vniust peace is better than a iust warre It is a diuine saying of an heathen man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is good to contend for good things The Papistes haue no matter of reioycing seyng they haue greater sharper controuersies at home and seing this tendeth both to the further opening of theyr shame and thrustyng out of their remnants whych yet remayne among vs. The weake may not be offended consyderyng that euen in the Church of God and among those of the Churche there hathe bene as greate varieties of iudgementes as these are For what weightier controuersies can there be than whether wee shall ryse agayne or no These were offences but woe to the authors whether circumcision were necessarye to be obserued of those whych beleeued And yet the fyrste was amongest the Churche of the Corinthes the other was fyrst in Hierusalem and Antioche and after in the Churches of Galatia and yet they the Churches and that the true religion whyche was there professed Io. Whitgifte It is very true and sufficiently proued in that Answere to the Admonition that the authours thereof bée contentidus and giue occasion to the Papistes of staundering the religion professed and to the weake of offence For whosoeuer troubleth the peace of the Churche or deuide themselues from the Churche for externall thinges they be contentious but these men doe so therefore they be contentious the maior proposition is grounded vppon the woordes of Saincte Paule 1. Corinth 8. 9. and. 10. but especiallye vppon these woordes of the. 11. Chapter If anye bee contentious we haue no suche custome neyther the Churches of God Whereas he purposely speaketh of such as be contentious for externall matters wherevpon that is grounded that Bullinger saith That those be contentious which trouble and deuide the Bulling church for externall things And that also whiche Zuinglius in his book de baptismo speaking of contentious Anabaptistes writeth They goe about innouations of their owne priuate authoritie in those Churches where the Gospell is truly taught and that in externall Zuinglius de baptis things And in his Ecclesiastes he calleth them authours of contentions and troublers of the church which striue about externall matters And surely this is an euident token that Zuingl in ecclesiast the accusation is true bicause they and their companions for the mosre parte make contention wheresoeuer they come and especially in those places where the Gospell hath with most diligence bin taught as experiēce sufficiently proueth Furthermore the time and maner of publishing their pamphlets argueth y e same most euidently The truth and necessitie of those things for the which they contend rest as yet in triall Surely if they be matters necessarie to saluation then is there some iust cause of breking the peace of the Church for them but if they be matters of
greately suspected the slaunderous reportes of the backbiter and of the vnlearned tongue the one bicause he loueth to speake euill and heare euill of all those that be not in all pointes inclinable to his fansie whereof I haue greate experience being my selfe most vniustly sclaundered by that viperous kind of men the other bicause they be not able to iudge of controuersies according to learning and knowledge and therefore are ruled by affection and carried headlong with blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous opinions Lastly bycause I know sundry in all respects worthy men much more able to deale in such matters than I am But when I considered my duty towards God to his Church and to our most gracious Lady and soueraigne Elizabeth hir Maiestie by whose ministerie God hath giuen his Gospell free passage vnto vs the first stop and hindrance was answered For I thought that that dutie ought not to be omitted for any such cause seeing God and not man shall be my iudge and also that not he which defendeth the truth and confu eth errours but he that impugneth the truth and spreddeth sects is the authoure of contention Likewise when I remembred that it was no newe thing to haue contentions sects and schismes in the Church of Christ especially whē it enioyeth externall peace and that we had manifest examples there of from tyme to tyme fyrste in Peter and Paule ad Gal. 2. Paule and Barnabas Acto 15. then in the Churche of the Corinthians 1. Cor. 1. 3. Afterwardes betwixte the orientall Churche and occidentall Churche touching Easter and suche like matters Betwixte the Bishops of Aphrica and the Byshoppes of Italie for rebaptising of Heretikes and sundry tymes yea vsually in the externall peace of the Churche as may be more at large seene in Eusebius lib. 4. eccl histo cap. 6. libr. 5. cap. 24. 25. 26. li. 8. c. Likewise in Ruffinus lib. 1. ca. 1. In Zozom lib. 6. cap. 4. In Basilius Magnus ep 61. ad fratres episcopos in occidente ep 69. in sundry other auncient and learned histories and writers For the second point I was satisfyed For I thought that that coulde be no slaunder to thys Churche which by the malice of Sathan hath ben practised in all Churches euen since the ascention of Christe Thirdly when I perceiued that these men against whom I now write did agree with the aduersaries in defacing the state of Religion the order of Common prayers the Ministerie the Sacramentes the kinde of Gouernment c. vsed and allowed in this Realme of Englande and that in as opprobrious and spitefull maner as the aduersaries doo lykewise that they seeke to ouerthrowe the selfe same pillers of this Church with the aduersaries although not by the selfe same meanes I thoughte that the confutation and ouerthrowe of the one should be the confutation and ouerthrow of the other and therfore the aduersaries to haue small cause in deede of reioycing Agaynst backbyters slaunderers and vnlearned toungs I shall by Gods grace arme my self with pacience for their talke is no sufficient cause for a man to abstaine from doing his dutie To conclude I although the vnworthyest and vnmeetest of a great number was bold to take vpon me this enterprise partely to shewe that the booke called the Admonition is not such but that it may easily be answered and especially to satisfie myne owne conseience for I considered that if no man had taken vpon him the enuie of the cōmon sort in with standing the enterprises and proceedings of the Anabaptistes when they began in Germanie Anabaptisme had ouerrunne those Churches and vtterly destroyed them These were the reasons that satisfied the former obiections and especially moued me to take vpon me this labour wherwith if I can also satisfie others I haue my desire if not yet haue I done my duetie and satisfied myne owne conscience And forasmuche as the matter toucheth the state of the whole Churche of Englande I thought it moste meete to dedicate this my booke rather vnto the same generally than to any one particular member thereof protesting that if I haue affirmed any thing therein that by learnyng good reasons may be proued erroneous I will reforme the same for I wholly submitte it to the rule of Gods worde and the iudgement of those that be learned discrete and wyse The Lorde blesse thee O deare spouse of Christe with the continuance of his Gospell of the Queenes Maiestie and of godlie peace and quietnesse Amen An answere to the whole Epistle to the Church T. C. WHat causes either pulled you forwarde or thruste you backwarde to write or not to write and how in this dispute with your selfe in the end you were resolued to write in this sorte I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lorde who only knoweth the secrets of the hart and wil in his good time vnseale them But if there be any place of coniecture the hatred of cōtention which you set downe as the first and principal cause that beate you backe from writing might wel haue bin put as the last and least or rather none at all For if peace had bin so precious vnto you as you pretend you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes bitter reproches e mylike speaches as it were sticks and coales to double and treble the heate of contention If the sharpnesse of the Admonition misliked you and you thinke that they outreached in some vehemencie of words how could you more effectually haue confuted that than to haue in a quiet and I de spirit set them in the way which in your opinion had left it Now in words condemning it and approuing it in your deedes I will not say that you do not so muche mislike this sharpnesse as you are A charitable figure sory that you are preuented and are not the first in it But this I may well say vnto you whiche he said Quid verba audiam cum facta videam what should I heare words whē I see the dedes In the fourthe reason whereby you were discouraged to write if by backbiters and vnlearned tonges viperous kind of men not able to iudge of controuersies caried away with affections and blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous ▪ opinions you meane al those that thinke not as you do in these matters I answer for my selfe and for as many as I knowe of them that they are they which first desire so it be truly to heare and speake all good of you But if that bee not through your perseuerance in the maintenance of the corruptions of this Church which you should help to purge then the same are they that desire that both the euill whiche you haue done and that which you haue yet in your hart to do may be knowne to the lesse discredite of the truthe and sinceritie which you with such might and maine do striue against Touching our (a) A manifest
peruerting of the words and meaning of the Epistle vnlearned tonges we had rather a great deale they were vnlearned than they should be as theirs * which haue taught their tonges to speake falsly And how vnlearned soeuer Ierem. 9. 5 you would make the world beleeue that we and our tongs be I hope through the goodnesse of God they shall be learned ynough to defend the truth against all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with If those be (b) Slaunderous and cursed speakers be not the generation of Christe the generation of Christe whiche you cal viperouse kinde of men Esay 53. 8. knowe you that you haue not opened your mouth against earth but you haue set it agaynst heauen and for all indifferent iudgement it will easily perceiue that you are as farre from the spirit of * John Baptist as you are neere to his manner of speach which you vse whither it be affection Math. 3. 7 or blind zeale that we follow and are driuen by it will then appeare when the reasons of both sides being laid out shal be wayed indifferently Wheras you say that your dutie towards God the Queene hir Maiesty moued you to take this labour in hād it will fall out vpon the discourse that as you haue not serued the Lord God in this enterprise and work of yours so haue you done nothing lesse than any godly dutie which you owe vnto hir Maiestie so that the best that can be thought of you herein is that where in an euill matter you could yeld no dutie yet now you haue done that which you thoughte a duetie which iudgement we will so long keepe of you vntil you shall by oppugmng of a knowne truth declare the contrary which we hope will not be What truth it is that we impugne and you defēd let it in the name of God appeare by our seueral proofs and answers of both sides And as for the slanderous surmises wherby in your third and last consideration you set the Papists of the one side of vs and the Anabaptists of the other and vs in the middest reaching out our hands as it were to them both first it ought not to be straunge vnto vs myserable sinners seeing that the Lord hunselfe without all sinne was placed in the middest of two greeuous malefactours as though he had bin worse than they both Then for answer of these slanderous speaches I will referre the Reader to those places where these generall charges are giuen out in more particular manner Io. Whitgifte It is well that you are content to rest in his iudgement vntill the time come for so indéed ought we to do as the Apostle admonisheth 1. Cor. 4. Nolite ante tempus quicquam 1. Cor. 4 ▪ iudicare Iudge not before the time vntill the Lord come c. Your coniecture is a méere coniecture in déede for vndoubtedly these so many harde words of mine bitter reproches c. would not haue bin kept so secret of you if you coulde haue had them foorthcomming But be it so as you will néedes haue it yet haue I not in like bitternesse of speach spoken against them as Zuinglius Bucer Caluine Bullinger Gualter c. haue done against the like troublers of the Church who had notwithstanding all these pretences and clokes to shadow their contentions with which either you or the Authours of the Admonition do alleadge for they pretende the Glory of God the Puritie of Religion the safetie of the Church as Master Bucer witnesseth in his Coment ▪ vpon the Ephe. Cap. 4. Master Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabap. Gastius in his booke de exordio erroribus catabaptist Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesi And Bullinger in his booke aduersus Anabaptist as I haue by setting downe their very wordes more at large declared in the second edition of my answere to the Admonition But graunt that for the loue of peace and hatred of contention and earnest zeale that I beare to this Church of Christ in England and dutifull affection to my souerayne I haue sometimes passed the bounds of modestie wherein I wil neyther accuse nor excuse my selfe yet are my speaches in bitternesse farre inferiour to those opprobries slanders and disdainefull words vttered either in the first or second Admonition or in your Replie And where haue you learned to espie a mote in another mans eye and not to sée the beame that is in your owne or what poynte of Rhetoricke do you call it to charge me in the beginning of your booke with that that you yourselfe most outrageously fall into sundry times almost in euery leafe or how vnwise are you to giue vnto me that councell which you yourselfe in no respect obserue But of both our modesties and manners of writing we must be contente that other men iudge which shall reade our bookes and therefore it is but in vaine either for you to accuse or me to excuse God graunt vs both the spirit of modestie and humilitie In my fourth reason by backbiters I meane all such as are ready to heare euill and speake euill of all men that be not of their iudgement and such as cease not continually to depraue those especially that be of any countenance and calling the which vice doth aboundantly reigne I will not say in all but in a great sort of your sect and those learned also I could name some which go from place to place for that purpose especially although vnder other pretences and in this qualitie they agrée with the Anabaptists as may appeare more plainly in the notes of the Anabaptists qualities conteined in the seconde edition of my answere to the Admonition to the which for breuities sake I referre you By vnlerned tongues I meane such of the common people as you haue deluded who in déede are caried away by a blinde and preposterous zeale and therefore the rather to be excused I know there be some both of the learned vnlearned sorte among you that haue milder spirites than the rest such I do not blante in this point I would other would follow their modestie As for the good that you and other woulde so gladly speake of me it euill appeareth in this booke where you do but deuise how possibly you may deface me in déede bothe you and some others if you considered your duties towardes mée and my dealings towardes you whilest you kepte your selues within your bondes haue small occasion to whisper of me in corners as you do or otherwise to deale so vnchristianly with me The euill that you know by me vtter it and spare not I desire no silence so that it be done where I may come to the answering of it And surely he that shall reade this your booke cannot but conceiue that if you knew any euill thing by me it would not be concealed But to all reproches I will answere as they come in order and proclayme defyance againste you for
all in this place what he doth hereafter we shall vnderstand when we come to it Abriefe examination c. Another kind of argument is muche like vnto this and is taken Ab authoritate negatiuè ab authoritate negatiuè which in matters of saluation and damnation holdeth when we reason ab authoritate scripturae from the authoritie of the scripture but not else For this argument it is not commaunded in the scripture to be done nor there expressed Ergo it ought not to be done is so farre out of the way and so erroneous that it is not tollerable for it taketh away the most part of all due circumstances without the which either after one manner or other the very institutiōs of Christ cannot be obserued For how is it possible to receiue the holy communion but either sitting standing kneeling walking or lying eyther at one time or other in the morning or at night before meate or after meate clothed or naked in this place or in that place c. and yet none of these circumstances are in Scripture commaunded or by necessarie collection may thereof be gathered the same is to be saide of the obseruation of times of common prayers and other cōuenient and necessary orders in the Church If this argument were good then all good lawes and ordinances made for the aduancing of true religion and establishing of good orders were to be abolished which wer the very roote and welspring of stubbornesse obstinacie sedition disobedience and confusion T. C. FOr the arguments themselues they shall be seene what they be in their places so shall also that be answered which M. Doctor bringeth heere for the confutation being streight way after and in sundry other places repeated in this booke I will touch that which is not repeated and that is that M. Doctor maketh it a (a) A wrangling cauill indifferent thing for men and women to receiue the supper of the Lord clothed or naked This sauoreth strongly of the secte of the Adamites (b) Superfluous proofes S. Paule which commendeth y e preseruation of godlinesse peace vnto the ciuil magistrate doth also commend vnto him the prouiding that honesty be kept and M. Doctor maketh it an indifferent thing (c) Where found you these words to come either naked or clothed vnto the Lords table verely there is (d) It is lesse honestie in charging M. Doctor falsly small honesty in this And if the heathen which knew not God did account it a filthy thing for a stage plaier to come vpon the stage without a slop how much more filthy is it for a Christian to come naked vnto the Lords table and the contrarie thereof is necessarilie collected of the scripture notwithstanding that M. Doctor saithe otherwise (e) A digression from the matter to the person They whiche haue hearde M. Doctor reade in the scholes can tell that he being there amongst learned men neuer vsed to reduce the contrarie arguments of the aduersaries to the places of the fallacions and yet that was the fittest place for him t haue shewed his knowledge in bycause there they should haue bin best vnderstoode now that hee professeth himselfe to be a Doctor of the people which bycause they haue not learned these things cannot vnderstand them he dasheth out his Logicke what may be probably gathered heereof I leaue to euery mans consideration this is certeine that circumstances of place and persons which he so oftē vrgeth are not well obserued of him when Logicke speaketh in the Church and is mute in the scholes when things are handled more learnedly amongst thepeople and more popularly amongst the learned It is truly said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A good thing is euill when it commeth out of season But to obserue what Arte here is shewed I would gladly know what place of the (f) Where be they called falla cions ▪ you cā not deny them to be false arguments fallacions either an argumēt Ab authoritate negatiue is or of negatiues by comparison Aristotle setting foorthe places wherevnto all fallacions may be called maketh no mētion of these and if these wer fallacions wer such as he imagineth them they shuld be referred vnto the former place Ab eo quod est secundum quid ad id quod est simpliciter for these reasons the Scripture hath it not therefore it ought not to be or the minister was knowne by doctrine therefore by doctrine onely and not by apparell If I say they be fallacions they be referred vnto that place and whether they be or no and also howe corruptly and otherwise than is ment they be gathered it shall afterwarde appeare In the meane season in a small matter heere is a great faulte not onely to muent newe places but of one place to make three and may aswell make a thousande Io. Whitgifte The arguments are lefte vnanswered bicause in déede they can not be answered Wherfore T. C. picketh other quarels and héere beginneth his vayne of gybing and iesting Who would haue made this adoe about clothed or naked but such a one as is delighted in quareling or who can gather that by vsing this example I would haue men to receyue the Communion naked or once surmise that I thinke it lawful for them so to doe and therfore to sauour strongly of the sect of the Adamites but he that is disposed to péece out his replie with suche imagined toyes I pray you where doe I make it an indifferent thing to come either clothed or naked vnto the Lordes table Set downe my wordes but if I say no suche thing if I haue not so muche as once named this worde indifferent in that place then surely haue you dealte with me not onely not indifferently but very dishonestly in laying this thing to my charge The example is apte and proueth that thing manifestly that I alleage it for that is that the moste parte of the due circumstances without the which the very institutions of Christ in his Sacraments can not be obserued be not commaunded particularly nor expressed in the Scriptures but lefte to the Churche to determine I doe not say that it is an indifferente thyng I knowe it dothe necessarily appertayne to comelynesse but I denie it to be particularly expressed in the Scriptures and therefore I say that althoughe all thinges necessary to saluation be in the Scriptures manyfestly conteyned yet all thinges necessary to order and comelynesse are not there expressed muche lesse suche thinges as according to tyme place and persons may be altered If this doctrine be not true why doe you not ouerthrowe the other examples also why can you finde no other faultes in this argument If this example so trouble you I will tell you playnely from whome I had it euen from that famous Martyr and notable learned man D. Ridley sometime Bishop of London who vsed the same example to the same purpose in his conference by writing with M. Hoper exhibited
vnderstanding thereof Your great wordes doe not answere the matter I feare not the insufficiencie of my pen I thanke God neither is there any cause why I should for the truth hath alwayes a plentifull defense whereas error and schisme is compelled to vse arrogant opprobrious and contemptuous speaches to maintaine it selfe Of all other T. C. hath least cause to complaine of such extremitie or to speake in this maner I haue much more cause to accuse his vndutifull and vnthankefull nature If Charitie be not suspitious why do you then thus not suspecte but directly giue sentence that it is not for want of good will that I doe not accuse them of Anabaptisme 〈◊〉 it not lawfull for me to suspect and is it lawfull for you to condemne You tooke vpon you to reproue me before for iudging and can you fall so sone into it your selfe 〈◊〉 déede charitie is not suspicious without iust and lawfull causes but whether the causes be iust or no let those iudge to whom it doth especially appertaine Io. Whitgifte The first article pag 2. Sect. 1. First Anabaptisme tendeth to this ende that in those places where the Gospell hath bin for a time preached and where Churches be reformed the Gospell may be hindered the Churches disquieted the simple brought to doubt of the Religion that hath bene taughte them contentious and vnquiet mindes may haue matter to worke on the preaching of the Gospell become odious finally that Magistrates and such as be in authoritie may be contemned and despised of their subiectes and inferiours T. C. pag. 2. Sect. 2. It is all true you heere alleadge of the Anabaptistes God be praysed there is nothing of it true in vs. If through these questions moued the Churche be disquieted the disquietnesse riseth in that the truth and sinceritie which is offered is not receyued We seeke it in no tumultuous manner but by humble sute vnto them to whom the redresse of things pertayne and by teaching as our callings will suffer If all those are to be counted in the way to Anabaptisme which moue controuersies when the Gospell is preached (*) The ca is 〈◊〉 thing lyke Then those that taught that the Gentiles weare to be preached vnto when as the most of the beleeuing Iewes which likewise preached the Gospell thoughte otherwise are to be counted in the way of Anabaptisme Likewise those that preached that circumcision was not necessarie vnto saluation when as a greate number of Christians at the first thought it necessarie Then Maister Zumglius and Decolampadius smelt of Anabaptisme which went aboute to ouerthrowe diuers things which Maister Luther helde I coulde goe further with this but I content my selfe with these examples If any be brought in doubt or hatred of the truth hereby or any man take occasion to be contentious it is not in the nature of the doctrine which is taught but in the corruption of their mindes nor it is not offence giuen but taken nor this doctrine can be no more charged than the rest of the Gospell which is a * sworde that cutteth a Citie or kingdome in sunder and setteth a * fire where Mat. 10. 34. there was none and putteth contention betwene the father and the sonne But what is to giue an Luc. 12. 49. incurable offence vnto the simple and matter to the enimie to reioyce in to all good Christians of teares and weeping if this be not to make the worlde thinke that numbers of those which professe the Gospell are infected with the poyson of Anabaptisme which can not be touched with the smalest poynt of it As for the Magistrate and authoritie we acknowledge the lawfulnesse necessitie A good 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vnfayne and singular commoditie of it we commende it in our sermons to others we pray for them as for those of whose good or euill estate hangeth the flourishing or decay of the common wealth and Church both We loue them as our Fathers and Mothers we feare them as our Lordes and Maisters and we obey them in the Lord and for the Lorde If there be any thing wherein we do not according to that which is commaunded it is bycause we can not be perswaded in our consciences that we may so doe whereof we are readie to render a reason out of the word of God and if that will not serue forthwith to submitte our selues to that punishment that shall be awarded against vs. And herein we first call the Lorde God to witnesse of our meaning and then we referre our selues to the consciences of all men in the sight of God Io. Whitgifte Nothing is here sayde of you in the defense of the authors of the Admonition but the Anabaptistes will say the same in theirs Let the like effectes procéeding from the like causes and in like manner iudge the likelyhoode betwixte the Anabaptistes and them One of the chiefe notes that are giuen of Anabaptistes by Zuinglius in his Zuinglius booke called Ecclesiastes and in his other bookes where he speaketh of them is that they sowe discorde and contention in those Churches where the Gospell hath bene truely preached and that about externall matters as it may more at large appeare in the seconde edition of my answere to the Admonition And tell me I praye you what Churche hath any of them setled themselues in but in such wherin the Gospell hath bene well The admonitors iustly accused of contention planted before or in what place haue they for any time remayned where they haue not with contention and factions troubled not that place onely but the whole countrey rounde aboute in lyke manner Surely if they preached doctrine necessarie to saluation that is the Gospell and in those places wherein the Gospell is not receyued then if contentions shoulde arise the cause were not to be ascribed vnto them but vnto their hearers onely but seyng they ran not teache the Gospell more sincerely than it is taught and seyng the matters they contend for be not of such necessitie that the Churches should for them be disquieted seyng also that they séeke reformation as they call it neither in due time due place nor before méete persons And finally seyng contentions are raised by them in those places where the Gospell is receiued I sée not howe they can auoyde the iust accusation of contentieus persons and disturbers of the peace of the Church For if you aske of the time the Admonition was published after the Parliament to the which it was dedicated was ended If you Their disorder in publishing the Admonition speake of the place it was not exhibited in Parliament as it ought to haue bene but spred abroade in corners and sent into the Countrey If you inquire of the persons it came first to theyr handes who had least to doe in reforming Likewyse your sermons of these matters when preache you them surely euen in this troublesome Their disorder in preaching and tumultuous tyme when there
authoritie to take héede of them Let men apply them as they sée cause and haue experience there can be no hurte in that it shall make them the more circumspect and arme them agaynst the hypocriste of diuers Howe the authors of both the Admonitions do agree with the Anabaptistes in these forenamed practises I haue declared in my answere to your Reply You falsifie my wordes when you affyrme that I say they agree wyth the Anabaptists in all the forenamed practises and qualities for I haue not this vniuersall signe all if they agrée with them in many they are to be suspected I thinke the Anabaptistes themselues as they haue diuers and seuerall opinions in doctrine so had they also sundrie qualities concerning lyfe and conuersation and yet some there are which be common to them all I know that all the estates and orders of this Realitie hate Anabaptisme I require not your promyse for that matter which you offer vnto me Satis pro imperio I know their detestation of that heresie and therefore I am holde to open these practises qualities vnto them least they may by some mens hypocrisie and close dealing be deceiued My words and writings be publike my speaches plaine and therefore if I sting it is openly inoughe The priuie hissers and stingers he those that secretelye smyte theyr neighbour and hisse at them in their absence at tables and in corners and sting them behinde their backes whē they are not present to answere for themselues Such adders and Scorpions swarme among you Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 6. Moreouer it may please you to consider the conditions practises of the Donatists who deuided them selues frō the congregation Donatistes and had their peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Africa They taughte also that all other Churches were spotted and impure bycause of their Ministers Finally that there ought to be no compulsion vsed in matters of Religion and fayth and that none should be punished for their conscience T. C. Page 7. Sect. 4. Nowe you carie vs from the Anabaptistes in Europe to the Donatistes in Affricke and you will paynte vs wyth their colours but you want the oyle of truth or 〈◊〉 of truth to cause your colours to cleaue and to endure The Lorde be praysed that your breath although it be 〈◊〉 anke yet it is not so strong y t it is able eyther to turne vs or chaunge vs into what formes it pleaseth you I shall desire the reader to loke Theodoret lib. 4. de fabulis Haereticorum Augustin ad quod-uult-Deum and in his firste and second bookes agaynst 〈◊〉 Letters where he shall fynde of these heretikes that by comparing them wyth these to whome M. Doctor lyk eth them the smoke of this accusation mighte the better appeare For these sclaunders are not worthe th answering To this diuision from the Churches and to your supposed conuenticles I haue answered They taught that there were no true Churches but in Affrica we teache nothing lesse than that there is no true Churche but in Englande If the Churches be considered in the partes whether Minister or people there is none pure and vnspotted and this is the faythe of the true Churche and not of the Donatistes if it be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outwarde pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted for any thing I knowe if men would laboure to purge it The Donatists vaunted themselues to be exempted from sinn and what lykelyhoode is there betwene any assertion of the authors of the Admonition and this fansie of the Donatistes To the last poynt of no compulsion to be vsed in matters of Religion denying it to be true I referre the further answere to an other place Io. Whitgifte This that I haue set downe of the Donatistes is all true neyther can you disproue one word of it I write so much of their practises as he correspondent to the doings The admonitors compared with the Donatistes of the Authors of the Admonition The Donatistes deuided th mselues from the co gregation and had peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Affrica These also deuide themselues from the Churche And although they tye not the Churche of Christ to any one corner yet haue they their seuerall Churches and secrete meetings The 〈◊〉 made thys their excuse why they departed from other Churches bycause they were not pure and vnspotted and their ministers of euill life These men for the lyke causes separat themselues from the Churche also The Donatistes woulde haue no 〈◊〉 vsed in 〈◊〉 of Religion and fayth These men in effecte be lykewise mynded for they woulde haue no 〈◊〉 punishement vsed which may appeare y that which is written in the second 〈◊〉 fol. 57. where they saye that it 〈◊〉 not to make any lawes 〈◊〉 m ere 〈◊〉 bycause the gouernment of the Second Admoni fol. 57. Churche is 〈◊〉 per 〈◊〉 the worde and fol. 56. and in 〈◊〉 plates else they speake to the lyke purpose whereof occasion will be g uen hereafter better to consider Augustine in his 〈◊〉 de haeresibus ad quod-vult 〈◊〉 heweth that some of the Donatistes Aug. de baeresib ad quod-vult were also Arians but not all 〈◊〉 some of them were Circumcellions of which secte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the place by you cyted But what is all 〈◊〉 to ▪ Lib. 4 de fab Haeret. the 〈◊〉 speake ot of their opinions nor of all theyr conditions but of such onely wherein these that separate them selues in oure dayes séeme to agrée wyth them Similia as you knowe agrée not in all poyntes it is sufficient if they doe in those things in quibus 〈◊〉 Neyther doe I anye otherwyse reporte of them than M. Caluine him selfe doth in his booke against the Anabaptistes and Augustine with others that write of them Surely neyther in the whole nor in parte can the Churche be vnspotted in this world no not in the outwarde pollicie and gouernment of it neyther doe I thinke that you are able to shewe any examples of suche Puritie we haue to the contrarie euen in the Apostolicall Churches in the Apostles tyme as the Churche of Corinth and of the Galatians Maister Caluine in hys booke aduersus Anabaptistas is directly against you and in déede I thinke that you are not able to shewe one learned writer of your opinion in this poynt Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 7. To conclude these men flatly ioyne with the Papistes and by the selfe same assertions bende their force against this Churche of Englande T C. Pag. 7. Sect. vlt. Salomon sayth that the beginnyng of the ordes of an vnwise man is folyshnesse b t the Ecclef 10. ver 13. latter ende of them is mere madnesse euen so it 〈◊〉 oute by you for whilest you suffer your selfe to be caryed headlong of your affections you hurle you knowe not what nor at whome whatsoeuer commeth firste to
taketh away life nor fire that consumeth the body which I moue vnto but it is the sworde of correction and discipline which may by sundrie other meanes be drawne out than by shedding of bloud That sword of discipline I call for still and say wyth Zuinglius If it be permitted that euery In his Epistle before his booke called Ecclesiastes man may freely defend his errors and spread abrode in the Church false doctrine there wil be more contentions sectes and discorde among Christian Churches than euer there was among Infidels And again If euery man may without controlment preach among the people his own priuate phansie and opinion contrary to the determination and authority of the Church it will shortly come to passe that we shall haue more errors than Christians If I haue accused any man vniustly there is a lawe whervnto I am subiecte but your words are not of that weight neither your defense suche that therefore they please or satisfie wise men bicause you speake them If they can say no more for them selues than you haue sayd for thē then they must remayne still in the same suspicion If there be any iust cause why ye shoulde haue the good abearing agaynst any man if you will come foorthe and orderly require it I am sure you may haue it But oh the mildnesse the patience and the quietnesse of this spirite of yours To the godly Readers grace and peace from God c. TWo treatises ye haue heere ensuing beloued in Christ which ye muste reade without a 1. Thes. 5. 21 Iam. 1. 19. 20 Iam. ▪ 2. 1. parcialitie or blinde affection For otherwyse you shall neither see their meaning nor refrayne your selues from rashly condemning of them without iust cause For certayne men there are of great countenance whiche will not lightly like of them bicause they principally concerne their persons and vniust dealings ▪ whose credite is great and whose friends are many we meane the lordely Lords Archbishops Bishops Suffraganes Deanes Doctors Archdeacons Chauncellours and the rest of that proude generation whose kingdome muste downe holde they neuer so harde b cause their tyrannous Lordship can not stande b Math. 15. 23 Luc. 16. 15. with Christes kingdome And it is the speciall mischiefe of our Englishe Churche and the chiefe cause of backwardnesse and of all breache dissention For they whose authoritie is c Mat 20. 25. 26. Mat. 23. 8. 9 10. Mar. 10. 42. 43. Luc. 22. 15. c. forbidden by Christ wil haue their stroke without their felow seruants yea though vngratiously cruelly and Popelike they take vppon them to d Mat. 24 48 49. beate them and that for their own childish Articles beeing for the most part against the manyfest truthe of God First by experience their rigour hathe too playnely appeared euer since their wicked raigne and specially for the space of these fiue or sixe yeres last past togither Of the enormities whiche with suche rigour they maynteine these treatises do in parte make mention iustly crauing redrèsse thereof But the matters do require a larger discourse Onely the authors of these thoughte it their partes to admonishe you at this time of those inconueniences whiche men seeme not to thinke vpon and whiche without reformation can not but increase further dissention the one parte beeing proude pontificall and tyrannous and the worde of God for the other parte expresse and manifest as if it pleased the state to examine the matters it woulde be euident And woulde to God that free conference in these matters might be had For howsoeuer learned and many they seeme to be they should may in this realme find inowe to match them and shame them too if they holde on as they haue begonne And out of this realme they haue all the best reformed Churches throughout Christendome agaynst them But in a fewe wordes to say what we meane Either muste we haue a right e Math. 9. 37. 38. Ephe. 4. 11. 12. ministerie of God and a right f Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. gouernment of his Churche according to the Scriptures set vp both which we lacke or else there can be no right religion nor yet for contempt thereof can g Pro. 29. 18. Amos. 8. 11. 12. c. Ma. 21. 23. c. 1. Cor. 11. 30 Gods plagues be from vs any while differred And therefore though they linke in togither and sclaunderously charge poore men whome they haue made poore with grieuous faults calling them Puritans worse than the Donatists exasperating setting on such as be inauthoritie agaynst them hauing hitherto miserably handled thē with r uilings ▪ depriuations imprisonments banishments suche like extremities yet is these poore mens cause neuer the h Mat. 10. 16. 26. worse nor these chalengers the better nor God his i Esai 59. 1. hand the further of to linke in with his agaynst them nor you christian brethren must neuer the rather without examination k Exo. 23. 1. 2. Mat. 7. 1. 2. Iam 4. 11. 12 condemne them But thankfully take this taste whiche God by these treatises offereth you and weigh them by the worde of God and do your endeu ur euery man in his l 1. Cor. 5. 20 1. Cor. 7. 27 calling to promote his cause And let vs all with more m Psal. 50. 15. Mat. 7. 7. 1. Tim. 2. 1. 2 earnest prayer than we are wont earnestly commende it to God hys blessing and namely that it will please him by his spirite to lighten the heart of our most gracious Soueraigne and the rest in authoritie to the benefite of his small flocke and the ouerthrowe of their proude enimies that godlinesse may by them proceede in peace and God his glory through Iesus Christ be throughly aduaunced Whiche we call God to witnesse is our onely labour and suite And so presently we leaue you hartily beseeching God to graunt it Amen ¶ An answere to the Preface of the Admonition THese two treatises contayned in this Admonition as they be voyde of sound learning so are they full of blinde affection and stuffed with vncharitable and vnchristian Arrogancie and vnchristian speches of the Libellers termes and phrases Wherfore it is to be feared that they proceede not of loue but of hatred not of zeale but of malice not of humilitie but of arrogancie not of minds desirous to reforme but of stomackes seeking to deforme and confounde that which is in due forme and order by lawfull authoritie established For what charitable zealous and humble spirite would so spitefully and slaunderously speake of their brethren whose doctrine is pure whose zeale is feruent whose suffering for the Gospell hath beene in time of triall comparable with any mans that nowe liueth who haue also paynefully taught the worde of God in this Realme and do at this day and by whose ministerie the Gospell hathe taken roote and is come to that encrease that nowe God be thanked appeareth Surely
vnfashioned matter of building of the Churche were vttered in them and those things were lefte out that should pertaine to the forme and fashion of it or as if there were in the Scriptures (*) T. C. accoun th externall gouemm t more precious thaÌ„ the doctrine of faith only to couer hir nakednesse not also chaines and bracelets and rings and other iewels to adorne hir and set hir out or that to conclude there were sufficient to quench hir thirste and kill hir hunger but not to minister vnto hir a more liberall and as it were a móre delicious and daintie dyet These things you seen e to say when you saye that atters necessarie to saluation and of faith are contayned in the Scripture specially when you oppose these things to ceremonies order discipline and gouernment And if you meane by matters of faith and necessarie to saluation those without whiche a man can not be saued then the (*) Note this ssertion doctrine that teacheth there is no free will or prayer for the dead is not within your compasse For I dou t not but diuers of the fathers of the Greeke Church which were great patrons of free will are saued (a) He that dyeth in the opinion of free will holdeth not this foundation holding the foundation of the faith which is Christ. The like might be sayde of a number of other as necessarie doctrines as that wherein men being misseled haue notwithstaÌ„ding bene saued Therfore seing that the point of the question l eth chiefly in this distinction it had bene good that you had spoken (b) Why then aue not you done it speaking so daungerously more certainely and properly of these things Io. Whitgifte When you say That it i no small in urie that I doe vnto the worde of God to pinne it vp in so narrowe roome c. You doe but enlarge the volume of your booke with bare words that myght well be spared I gy e that perfection to the worde of God which the worde it selfe requireth and all godly learned men consent vnto and muche more doe I attribute vnto it than you do in saying that many things are both commaunded and forbyddeÌ„ of the which there is no expresse mentioÌ„ in the word which are as necessary to be followed Pag. 13. Sect. 2. or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made which I take to derogate much from the perfection of the Scriptures to be méere Papisticall and quite contrarie to that that you doe pretende I also confesse that in all other things we muste so be directed by the Scriptures that we doe nothing contrarie to the true sense and meaning of them no not in externall and in the leaste matters neyther doe I otherwise write teache or speake of the perfec ion and authoritie of the Scriptures than all other leane men and the reformed Churches teache write and beléeue wherefore I passe ouer your words and come to your reasons If I meane say you by matters of fayth and necessarie to saluation those without the which a man can not be saued c. I can not but muse what you meane willingly to pretende ignorance Is this thinke you a sounde argument Diuers of the fathers of the Greeke Churche which were greate patrons of free will are saued holding the foundation of the fayth which is Christ Ergo The doctrine of free will is not a doctrine of saluation or damnation you myght as well say that many in the popishe Church which beléeued that the Pope was supreme head of the Church that the Masse was a sacrifice for the quicke the dead and such like poynts of pâ—pisticall Religion be saued Ergo these are no matters of saluatioÌ„ or damnatioÌ„ Surely by the same reason al other kinde of sinnes almost The mercie of God infinite might be without this compasse But it may please you to vnderstand that the mercie of God in his sonne Iesus Christ is infinite and that he pardoneth at his good will and pleasure not onely misbeliefe procéeding of ignorance but wilfull erreurs and sinnes also thoughe they be of themselues damnable he also altereth the minde of man euen in a moment and therefore as hys mercyes be infinite so be his iudgementes vnsearchable Wherefore this your reason is vttered without due consideration The doctrine of free wyll bycause it is an enimye to the grace of God must néedes be of it selfe a damnable doctrine yet doth it not preiudice the mercie of God nor finally shut oute repentance the gifte of God And full well doe you knowe that he can not hold y e foundation of faith that is Christ perfectly which is a mayntayner of free will But leauiug the weight of such kind of argumentes to the consideration of the Reader I come to the purpose When I saye that an argument holdeth negatiuely from the authoritie of the Scripture in matters of fayth and necessarie to saluation my meaning is manifest which is this that the Scriptures doe containe all things necessarie to be beléeued and to saluation and therfore whatsoeuer is taught vnto vs as an article of fayth and necessarie to saluation not contained in the scriptures that same to be false and vntrue and therefore to be reiected As for example the doctrine of fre wyll of Purgatorie of praying for the dead of praying to Saint of the sacrifice of the Masse c. are not contayned in the Scriptures and therefore they be not doctrines to be beléeued nor necessarie to saluation but damnable d ctrynes of themselues and repugnant to saluation Surely I thinke in this poynte that you neither vnderstande me nor your selfe my meaning is plaine that nothing is necessarie to saluation which is not plainely contained in the Scriptures Chap. 1. the fourth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21. Sect. 4. But that no ceremonie order discipline or kinde of gouernmente What things the Scripture hath not expressed but left to the ordering of the Church may be in the Churche except the same be expressed in the worde of God is a great absurditie and breedeth many inconueniences T. C. Pag. 14. Sect. 3. But to the ende it may appeare that this speach of yours doth some thing take vp and shrinke the armes of the Scripture which otherwise are so long large I say that the word of God containeth the direction of all things pertaining to the Church yea of whatsoeuer things can fall into any part of mans lyfe For so Salomon saith in the seconde chapter of the Prouerbes My sonne if thou receiue my words and hide my preceptes in the. c. then thou shalt vnderstande iustice and The Scripture wrested by T. C. iudgement and equitie and euery good way S. Paule sayth that whither we eate or drinke or 1. Cor. 10. what soeuer we do we must doe it to the glory of God But no man can glorifie God in any thing but by obedience and there is no
whole Church of making of such orders may and ought to be called to a certayne number that confusion may be auoyded and with the consent also of the Churches to auoyde tyrannie it shall appeare in a more proper place where we shall haue occasion to speake of the eldership or gouernment in euery Church and of the communion and societie or participation intercommuning of the Churches togyther by councels and assemblies prouinciall or nationall Io. Whitgifte Diuers of those learned men here named being rightly enformed of the state of The occasion of mens writings must be considered this controuersie with all the circumstances perteyning therevnto haue set downe their opinions in writing and therefore if it should so come to passe which as yet is not proued neyther as I thinke will be that in their publike writings they should séeme to affirme any thing contrary to their priuate letters it is bycause they speaking generally of all and hauing respect to the time and place wherein and when such things were abused haue generally spoken of them otherwise then they do as they be now vsed in this Church of England And surely in my opinion these their epistles wherein of purpose being required they gyue their sentence of suche matters oughte to be more credited than their generall writings wherein they maye séeme otherwise to speake vppon other occasions But I thinke that in the ende it will fall out that they haue written nothyng publikely againste any thing that is written by them priuately and of some of them I am sure that their publike and priuate writings of these matters doe fully agrée But where haue you learned to answere on this sorte to the authoritie of learned men to accuse them of contrarietie before you haue manifestly proued it is to doe vnto them great iniurie The place of M. Bucer maketh directly for my purpose and therefore in giuyng place vnto it you graunte as muche as I hitherto haue required For M. Bucer vsed the example of apparell whiche is one thing in controuersie betwixte vs and sayeth playnly that the Church hath authoritie to appoint such things as haue neyther cōmaundement nor example in the Scripture These Epistles of M. Bucer and of M. Martyr with the Epistles of other learned men be printed and published wholly and fully and it can not bée that the same should be vnknown vnto you the bookes being so cōmon your pleading of ignorance in this thing is but a colour When euery Minister must be chiefe of the seigniorie and haue with some other of the parishe the whole authoritie Ecclesiasticall when they must not bee so First admo ▪ the. 14. reason tyed to any forme of prayers but as the spirite moueth them so to poure out supplications when the Prince is secluded from authoritie in appoynting of ceremonies and orders of discipline that is when in Ecclesiasticall matters you giue to the Ciuill magistrate no more than the Papistes do to wit potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris as will afterwardes more plainly appeare what is it else but for euery minister to be Pope in his owne parishe and to vse suche order discipline and seruice as he himselfe listeth If you had bin disposed to speake the truthe and to report my wordes as they be written you woulde haue eased your booke of these lynes whiche followe For where doe I giue this authoritie to the Bishops or in what words do I restrayne the Churche to them my wordes be these Is it not as lawfull for a godly Prince with the aduise and consente of godlie and learned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church c. You sée that I ioyne the Prince the Bishops and other of the wisest together in making of orders c. and whensoeuer I meane the Churche in suche a case I meane not the confused multitude of the Church but suche as God hath called to gouerne his Church in the externall gouernment whome I take to be in this Churche the Prince the Bishops the Councell and suche other as by the order of this Churche haue to do in suche like matters Your falsifying hurteth not me but discrediteth your selfe and your cause The Bishops haue muche to thanke you that it would please you to admitte them into that consultation of yours if they woulde giue ouer that office and callyng But thanks be vnto God you haue as yet no suche authoritie committed vnto you Wherfore this and suche lyke kynde of speaches doe but declare howe magnifically you thynke of your selfe c. If it pertayne to the whole Churche that is as I thinke you vnderstande it to the whole multitude of the Churche to make suche orders howe can you restraine it to a certaine number or why not as well to some one if the multitude thynke it so conuenient but of this matter when you come to youre seigniorie and kinde of gouernment Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 30. Sect. 1. An examination of the places c. TO proue that nothing in this mortall lyfe is more diligently to be sought for and carefully to be looked vnto than the restitution of true Religion and reformation of Gods Churche there is noted 2. Reg. 23. 2. Chro. 17. 2. Chro. 29. 30. 31. Psalm .. 132 Math 21. Ioh. 2. In the firste place it is declared howe Iosiah after he had founde the booke of the lawe reformed the Churche In the seconde place Iehosaphat tooke away the high places and groues out of Iuda c. In the 29. 30. 31. of the. 2. Chron. is described the doings of Ezechias in repairing the temple and reforming religion c. In the. 132. Psalme it is declared with what care Dauid went about to build the temple of God after that he was once established in his kingdome In the. 12. of Math. Iesus went into the temple and cast out all them that bought and sold in the temple c. The like he did in the seconde of Iohn All this is confessed to be true and no man denieth it And I pray God make vs thankfull for the Queenes maiestie who hathe not bin slacke in this point but hath like a vertuous religious and godly prince in the very entring into hir raigne notwithstanding the multitude of hir aduersaries bothe at home and abrode abolished all superstition and restored the simplicitie of the Gospell But these men alleadge these places to the discredite of this reformation and of the whole gouernmente of this Churche How aptly and how truly let godly wise and learned meniudge Io. Whitgifte All this is passed ouer with silence and nothing said vnto it good or bad The exposition of the places Deu. 4. 12. quoted by the Admonition Cap. 6. The first Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 30. Sect. 2. TO proue that these things only are to be placed in gods Church The places in the. 4. and. 12. o Deutero expounded whiche God himselfe in
that he had conspired with the Babilonians their mortall enimyes and layd to his charge that he was goyng to them when he was going to Beniamin Io. Whitgifte Who is so blynde as he that will not sée Doe they not in plaine wordes saye That the outwarde markes whereby a true Christian Churche is knowen are preaching of the worde purely ministring the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline c Is not their whole drifte in the Admonition to proue That neither the worde is preached purely nor the Sacramentes sincerely ministred c. in this Chnrche of Englande and what doe T. C. willuigly peruerteth the words of y e Answere I otherwyse reporte of them be not my wordes playne where doe I affirme that they shoulde saye that the Churche of Englande is voyde of preaching and ministring the Sacramentes But let the Reader consider my wordes and accordingly iudge of your plaine dealing Where I write y t they in effect say the Church of England is voyde of these I am sure you will referre these to that whiche went before that is preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and ecclesiasticall discipline c. neither can you otherwise doe thoughe you woulde wrest my wordes neuer so violently and therefore that which I reporte of them is that they say this Church of England neither hath the worde purely preached nor the sacramentes sincerely ministred c. I make no greate difference betwixte purely and truely neyther dothe it followe Purely and truely that the worde of God is truely preached alwayes when the truth is preached For as a man maye doe Iusta not Iustè lust thyngs and yet not iustly so maye the truthe be preached and yet not truely A man maye doe that whiche is iuste vnwittingly or for gayne or for pleasure or for malice but then he dothe it not iustly Quid non ex babitu animo Euen so a man maye preache the true worde of God of affection of contention ambition for profite c. but then he dothe not preache it truely So that your distinction betwixt purely and truely is to no purpose Neyther dothe Saint Paule helpe you anye thyng at all but is cleane centrarye 1. Phi. vers 18. vnto you for in the ▪ 18. verse of the firste Chapter to the Philip. these be hys wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ c. whych in the Bible Printed at Geneua is thus translated VVhat then yet Christe is preached all manner wayes whether it be vnder a pretence or sincerely So you sée that there is no difference made betwixte sincerely and truely for the Greeke worde signifyeth truely And Maister Beza in hys notes vpon the same Chapter and. 16. verse expoundyng 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not purely saythe thus Non pu o scilicet animo quùm alio qui pura Beza esset doctrina to weete not wyth a pure mynde seeyng that otherwyse the doctrine is pure so that these aduerbes purely and truely in this place are referred not to the doctrine but to mynde of hym that teacheth ▪ I woulde wyshe that bothe you and others woulde cease from drawyng the Scriptures to youre phantasyes and affections That this is one reason of the Papistes to proue that we are not the Churche bycause we haue no true ministerie I maruell you can be ignorant séeyng there is nothing oft er in their mouthes Whether the authors of the Admonition reason in lyke manner or no tell me when you haue well consydered these wordes of theirs in the Epistle to the Reader Eyther must we haue a right-ministery of God and a ryghte gouernment of hys Churche accordyng to the Scriptures set vp both which we lacke or eise there can be no ryghte Religion Likewise when you haue wythoute parcialitie viewed the reste of their booke Truely I thinke him to be more than blynde that séeth not thys to be theyr kynde of reasoning Their meanyng is playne and the seconde Admonition maketh it plainer howsoeuer you woulde séeme to colour and cloake the matter for what other meanyng can it haue to saye that we haue no ryghte ▪ Religion and to speake so bitterly agaynst the whole forme of the Churche and the moste of suche things as be in the same I doe beléeue certaynely that there is some Papisticall practitioners among you neyther is it straunge for so conspired they wyth the Anabaptistes also as I haue declared and the Anabaptistes hated them as muche as you and pretended the sunplicitie of the worde of God as muche as you and bothe in pretence of zeale of puritie of lyfe and other qualities for the moste parte were equall vnto you And thoughe the Prophete Ieremie were vniustly accused yet doth not that improue any thing that I haue sayde for they are not the Prophete Ieremye neither in person office or cause neither yet haue I accused them vniustly in any thing Of the election of Ministers Tract 3. Of the triall of Ministers both in learnyng and conuersation Chap. 1. the first diuision Admonition The first is this For whereas in the olde Church atrial was had (l) Acts. 1. 11. Acts. 6. 3. 1. Tim. 3. 7. 8. Tit. 1 6. both of their abilitie to enstruct and of their godly conuersation also nowe by the letters commendatorie of some one man noble or other tag and rag learned and vnlearned of the basest (m) 1. Re. 12. 31. sorte of the people to the slaunder of the Gospell in the (n) Rom. 2. 14. mouthes of the aduersaries are freely receiued Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 36. It it true that in the olde Church tryall was had of their abilitie to instruct and of their godly conuersation But the place in the margent alleaged out of the firste Chapter of the Actes of the Apostles maketh nothing for that purpose beyng therein no mention at all of any tryall made eyther of learning or maners but onely of presenting two and of praying and casting of lottes And M. Clauine in his Institutions sayth plainely that out of this place of the Actes and example there can be no certaine rule gathered of electing and chosing Ministers for as that ministerie was extraordinarie so was the calling also Reade M. Caluine and you shall soone see how little this place so ofte in the margent quoted maketh for that purpose for the which it is quoted T. C. Pag. 23. Sect. 4. 5. Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. It maketh for the purpose which is alleaged out of the firste of the Actes to proue that there ought to be tryall of those which are chofen to the ministerie for when S. Peter sayth that such a one must be chosen as hath bene continually conuersant with our sauiour Christ and from the beginning of his preaching vntill the day wherin he ascended into heauen he ment nothing (a) Surelye that was not so much ment as that he might be a fitte witnesse of the doyngs of
that point his fault must not be ascribed to the rule appointed neither yet to the whole Church Is the law euill bicause some lawyers Wickednes of men causeth not lawes to be euill in their office swarue frō it This is fallation à nō causa ad causā T. C. Pag. 24 Sect. 6. But in the ende you agree that they should be tryed so that nowe the question standeth only howe and by what meanes wherin you for your part say that the booke of ordering ministers is a sufficient and good rule I haue read it and yet I can not commende it greately But you will say not with indgement or iudifferencie I will promise you with this indifferencie that I wished that all that is there were good and conuenient and such as I might saye vnto so bee it With what iudgement I doe disallowe it I leaue it to all men to esteeme vpon these reasons Io. Whitgifte The question is not whether you allowe or disallowe that booke neither is it materiall whether you doe or not Your reasons vsed against it I will seuerally for memorie sake examine Chap. 1. the fourth Diuision T. C. Pag. 24. Sect. 7. 8. 9. Fyrst that the examination of hys doctrine wholly and partely of hys lyfe is permitted to The reasons of T. C. against the booke of ordering ministers one man For consyderyng of the one parte the greatnesse of the charge that is committed vnto the ministers and the horrible pe ill that commeth vnto the Church by the want of those things that are required in them and of the other parte weighyng the weaknesse of the nature of man whyche although he seeth many things yet is he blynd also in many and that euen in those things whiche he seeth he suffereth himselfe to be caryed away by his affection of loue or of enuie c. I saye consydering these things it is verye daungerous to committe that to the vewe and search of one man whyche maye with lesse danger and more safetie be referred vnto dyuers For herein Manie eye see more 〈◊〉 one the prouerbe is true Plus vident oculi quam oculus And almoste there is no office of charge in this realme whych lyeth in election committed so 〈◊〉 to any as that vpon one mannes reporte of hys habilitie all the rest whych haue interest in the election will giue their voyces so that if we were destitute of authoritie of the scripture the verie lyghte of reason woulde shewe vs a more safe and waryer way But there is greater authoritie for S. Luke in the fyrst of the Actes sheweth that Sainc e Peter woulde not take vpon him to presente two as fitte for the place whiche was voyde but sayth they did present or set vp wherby appeareth that the examinatiō of their abilitie was comitted to many The same apeareth also in the. 6. of the Acts when as the Apostles will y e Church wherin there wer so excellent personages to loke out seuen full of the holy ghost wisedome c. They doe not there permitte the discernyng of theyr wysedome and other gyftes to one but to manye Io. Whitgifte Youre fyrste reason is partely grounded ppon bare coniectures or rather The first 〈◊〉 son of T. C. hath either a weake or a false ground common suppositions that maye be supposed in the moste perfecte gouernment partely vppon the place Acto 1. eyther not vnderstoode or wyllingly miscon rued nothyng perteyning to the purpose But fyrste it is vntrue that the exa ination eyther of doctrine or lyfe is in thys Churche wholly committed to one man For the Booke committeth the examination of suche as are to bée admitted into the ministerie not onely to the Byshop but to the Archedeacon also to the Bishoppe in the begynnyng of the Beoke by playne and expresse woordes to the Arched acon bycause he muste presente them vnto the Bishoppe of hys knowledge whiche he ran not doe truely withoute diligente examination But admitte it bée so that the examination is committed to one man onely what then For soothe consyderyng on the one parte the greatnesse of the charge c. and of the other parte the weakenesse of the nature of man c. it is more daungerous to committe that to the vewe of one man c. If you respecte the greatenesse of the charge that is committed to ministsrs The Byshop most meete to haue the examination c. Who is better able to consyder thereof than the Byshoppe whyche bothe knoweth what suche a charge meaneth and hathe hadde hymselfe long experience thereof To whome also dyuerse seuerall charges doe apperteyn for the whyche it behoueth hym to foresée that there bée méete ministers If you speake of blynde affections as loue enuie c. who maye bée supposed to bée more voyde of them than hée that is called to suche an hyghe office in the Churche that is so well instructed in the Scriptures of so long tyme knowne bothe for hys lyfe learnyng Religion and wysedome méete to haue that credite commytted vnto hym Surely if anye one man or moe bée voyde of suche affections and bée thoughte méete to haue suche matters commytted vnto hym it is the Byshoppe And if hée bée méete and woorthye for that place and offyce then maye he also bée safely credyted wyth all thynges incidente vnto the same But what haue you here sayde agaynste one man in thys case that may not bée lykewyse sayde of an other man in all other lyke cases agaynste one Kyng one Iudge yea agaynste manie euen the whole multitude in whome not onely lacke of knoweledge and discretion in suche matters but greate abundaunce of affections of wrathe of hatred of loue of feare of contention c. for the moste parte reygneth as experience of all tymes and places declareth But of thys matter occasion will be ministred to speake more hereafter The prouerbe Plus vident oculi quam oculus Manie eyes see more than one is not alwayes nor in all cases true one man of wysedome experience learnyng and discretion maye sée more knowe more and iudge better in those thynges that hée can skyll of than ten thousande other that bée ignorant or that in such matters bée farre inferiour vnto him You saye that almoste the is no office of charge in thys Realme c. whyche is not so for the offices of greatest importaunce and charge in the whole Realme both in the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill state are in the onely Election of the Prince and they bée beste bestowed and vppon the méetest and woorthyest persones Those offices that bée commytted to the v yces of manie eyther are bestowed of custome or at the entreatie of some in authoritie or by extreame suite and laboure made by some parties or else is there greate contention stirred vp aboute them by some busie bodies And in déede when are there more vnwoorthye men chosen to offices when is there more stryfe and contention aboute elections
notorious for what do either they or you but deface euen the best learned and wisest of such as withstand you thinking none sufficiently learned but yourselues and your adherents For the number of sufficient ministers in France able to preach in the time of the crosse I will not take vppon me to define any thing yet haue I talked with some wise godly and learned preachers of that countrie such as had good cause to know the state of that Church touching that matter and truly for any thing that I can learne of them you haue ouershot your selfe in reckening at the least 14. hundreth But I am not curious in matters not apperteyning vnto me and I write but of credible reporte God be thanked for the number that they had or haue howe many or howe fewe soeuer they are Touching the number of preachers throughout England I cannot write any certaintie but of this Uniuersitie bycause I haue some experience you shall giue me leaue to speake as earnestly in truly commending of it as you haue done in vntruly and vnkindly defacing and slaundering it The number of knowne preachers which this vniuersitie hath bredde since the beginning of the Quéenes Maiesties reygne to this time of the yeare of our Lord Anno. 1573. are at the least 450. besides those that haue bin called to that office after their departure from hēce and are not yet knowne to me The number of preachers that be now in this Uniuersitie remayning is 102. and no doubt but God will encrease the number of them dayly more and more Although The contentions in the Church is an hindrance to the profession of diumitie in the vniuersities it must be confessed that the factions and tumults which you and some others haue made in the Churche do discourage a great number from the ministerie causeth many to contemne it and thinke the calling to be vnlawfull and therefore to absteyne from it Moreouer I know by experience that some of you deuise and practise by all meanes possible to styrre vp contention in this Uniuersitie to disswade men from the ministerie to bring such as be sober wise learned and godly preachers into contempt and to make a confusion and diuide euery Colledge within itselfe But howsoeuer hitherto you haue preuayled as you haue preuayled to much yet I trust you shall neuer throughly bring to passe that which you desire And I doubt not but that your vnduetifull vnciuill and vncharitable dealing in this your booke your many errours and foule absurdities conteyned in the same hath so detected you that honest discréete quiet and godly learned men will no more be withdrawen by you and such as you are to any such schisme or cōtention in the Church but rather bend them selues against the common aduersarie and séeke with hart and mouth to build vp the walles of Ierusalem whiche you haue broken downe and to fill vp the Mynes that you haue digged by craft and subteltie to ouerthrow the same And howsoeuer some will still be way wardly disposed yet I doubt not but that if such as be in authoritie will do their duties they may by conuenient discipline either be kept within the bonds of modestie or else remoued from this place wherein of all other places they may do most harme For the Innes of Court what they would do I know not howbeit I think very few haue gon from this place thither whiche had euer any purpose in them to enter into the ministerie And surely from that place where I am I haue not knowne any go to the Innes of Court in whome there hathe appeared any kind of inclination to the ministerie What store of fit preachers those Innes would yeld if your Church were framed I know not but I thinke that some of thē would not refuse the spoile of this I doubt not but that there are many in the Innes of Courte well affected in religion God continue them and encrease the number of them and giue them grace to take héede that they be not seduced by ouermuch credulitie in themselues and pretensed zeale in others What Galene and Iustinian would do may be doubted for though both Galene and Iustinian haue forsaken our ministerie yet do they kéepe such liuings as they had in the respect of the same and are so farre from yelding of tenthes that they can be well content to receiue tenthes Chap. 1. the tenth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 37. Sect. 1. Touching letters commendatorie of some one mannoble or other Letters commendatorie of wise and godly men it may be that the parties which giue these letters be of that zeale learning and godlinesse that their particular testimonie ought to be better credited than some other subscribed with an hundred handes And I thinke there is both noble men and other who may better be trusted in that point than a great number of parishes in Englande which consist of rude and ignorant men easily moued to testify any thing And in many places for the most part or altogither drowned in Papistrie I know no reason to the cōtrary and I see no scripture alledged why one learned godly and wise mans testimonie may not be reteiued in such a case and yet the booke expresseth no such thing The b oke quireth due examination of life and learning but requireth due examination of learning and sufficient testimonial of conuersation and giueth libertie to any one particular man to obiect any crime against any suche as are to be ordered willeth that the partie accused be kept from the ministerie vntill he haue cleared himselfe of the crimes obiected If tag and rag be admitted learned and vnlearned it is the fault of some not of all nor of the law And if they were called and elected according to your fantasie there would some creepe in as euill as any be now and woorse too T. C. Page 26. Lin. 8. It is not denyed but the testimonie that a noble man whiche professeth the truth dothe gyue ought to be weighed according to his degree and place which he hath in the common welth but where you thinke that the testimonie of one wise man learned and godly is sufficient warrant to proceede to an election of a Minister you considered not well the circumspection which S. Paule vsed who when he admitted Timothie into his company to be a companion in his iourney to cut off all occasion of euill speach receyued him not*but vpon commendation of the brethren both in Lystra Act. 1 and Iconium Io. Whitgifte I know that the testimonie of many godly and wise men is of more weight than the testimonie of one only but this is no answer to that which I haue said The place of Paule and Timothie Act. 16. declareth how well Timothie was thought of and commended vnto Paule but it followeth not that Paule would not also haue receyued him if he had bin commended vnto him but by some one Howsoeuer it is this your
I were a Lawyer I could tell you that this law admitteth many exceptions What is more expedient for all men than to haue a good Prince good Councellors good Iudges c. and yet I thinke it were moste pernicious to haue those offices committed to the election of the people But what néede I stryue with you in this matter For if those things that be concluded by Parliament be by the consent of the moste parte of the Realme bicause the peoples consent is there in their knightes of their shires and other Burgeses as in déede it is whiche you also confesse then haue you no more to saye in this matter for the booke of ordering Ministers and Deacons c. is allowed and graunted by Parliament and therefore the Bishops and Ministers of this Churche of England are chosen by the consent of the people nay which is more of the whole Realme bicause they are ordeyned and chosen according to that order and rule whiche the whole realme in Parliament hath made and bounde them selues vnto But by the way if this grounde of lawe be good in that sense that you alleage it and be transferred to the ciuill state it will be founde very daungerous and tootoo muche sauouring of popularitie as in déede the whole course of your doctrine is Chapter 5. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. So is it also when the question is to choose the Magistrate Mayre or Bayliffe or Constable of euery towne whiche things if they haue groundes in ciuill affayres they haue muche better in Ecclesiasticall For it is muche more vnreasonable that there shoulde be thrust vpon me a gouernour of whome the euerlasting saluation or damnation bothe of my body and soule dothe depende than him of whome my wealth and commoditie of this lyfe dothe hang. Unlesse those vpon whome he were thrust were fooles or madde men or children without all discretion of ordering themselues whiche as I will shewe can not agree with those that are the Churche of God and are to haue a Pastor For they of the Churche of God althoughe they be called sheepe in respect of their simplicitie and harmlesnesse yet are they also for their circumspection wise as serpentes in the wisedome especially whiche is to saluation and howe (a) No man keth vi e a ouÌ„t of the people of God but you partly of 〈◊〉 partly of popular affection would haue it seeme so thereby to 〈◊〉 hatred agaynst vs. vyle accompte soeuer you will make of them they are the people of God and therefore spirituall and foorthwith those of whome sainct 1. Cor. 2. Paule sayth the spirituall man discerneth all things Io. Whitgifte The disorder of suche popular elections hathe bin suche the contentions moued Elections by the multituâ—e are for y e most parte tumultuous in them so great the ambition of the persons standing in election so notorious the partiall affection of the people inclining to their kinsfolkes friendes or landlords c. so vntollerable to be short the lacke of iudgement discretion in many of them so apparant that that maner of electing vpon great coÌ„siderations hath bin altred in diuers places desired to be altered in others also by al those that are wise discrete that wishe for quietnesse good gouernment Neither is it true that the election of those officers which you name is euery where in the people In the best ordered Cities and townes it is otherwise and experience dothe teache that those offices whiche are in the Princes bestowing and some other to whome she committeth the same are the best bestowed and vpon the moste worthyest persons as Bishoprikes the offices of Iudges Iustices c. In ecclesiasticall affayres it is muche méeter that suche as haue knowledge zeale and care for the people shoulde place ouer them a méete and fitte Pastor than that the choyse of him should be committed to the multitude whiche is not onely for the moste parte ignorant but carelesse in suche matters yea and oftentimes euill disposed and commonly led by affection as friendship hatred feare c. I knowe that Christian men are not called sheepe bycause they be voyde of reason ChristiaÌ„ men eepe For as Chrysostome saythe Oues sunt sed rationales They are sheepe but suche as are indued with reason And god dothe at one tyme or other if they be his open hys truthe vnto them and indueth them with the spirite of discerning betwixte true and false doctrine in those things that doe pertayne to their saluation But bicause God dothe in his good time open his truthe vnto them are they therfore alwayes voyde of affection and errour or bicause some haue this spirite of discretion is it therefore common to all or to the moste parte In déede if you speake of the inuisible Church which is onely of the electe then is it something that you say but if you speake of the visible Churche whiche is a mixture of good and euill and wherein the euill are the greater number then hath your saying no probabilitie in it And why may not the Pope as well reason of this place 1. Cor. 2. that he can not erre in matters of religion Scripture vn aptly alleaged by T. C. as you may that Parishes can not be deceyued in electing their pastors for he dothe alleage this texte for himselfe to the same purpose but the meaning of the Apostle is this that he onely whiche is ruled and gouerned by the spirite of God hath the true knowledge of the mysteries of God and is able to discerne the truthe from falshood You can no more proue therefore by this sentence that the Parishes can not erre in choosing their Pastors than the Pope may doe that himselfe generall Councels and the Churche can not erre and surely the more I consider the matter the more I maruell what your meaning is in alleaging this texts Chapter 5. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 2. Moreouer reason and experience teacheth that it maketh much to the profiting of the Church vnder the hande of the Pastor or Bishop that the Churche loue him and reuerence him For the contempte and hatred of the minister for the moste parte standeth not in his owne person but reacheth euen vnto the doctrine which he teacheth But the Minister that the Churche desireth it commonly best loueth and moste reuerenceth and of the other side hateth and contemneth him that is thrust vpon them therefore it maketh muche to the profiting of the people in the doctrine of the Gospell that the minister come in by their consent Likewise the people muste by S. Paule hys 1. Tim. 4. rule followe the good example of the Minister but men wyll not likely followe their examples whome they loue not nor loue them which are thrust vpon them agaynst their willes Therefore it standeth with the good conuersation and godly following of the steppes of the minister that he be with the consent of the
bycause the Churche was then vnder Persecution doth both diminishe increase y e number of professors the Crosse therefore fewe in comparison embraced the Gospell for sodde I say bycause notwithstanding the number of true professors doe increase rather than diminishe in the time of persecution yet is it not so with hypocrites and dissemblers who would séeme to professe the Gospell and whom also we must count professors bycause we sée not their hartes This is manifest by this example In the time of King Edward when the Gospell was in prosperitie how many was there in London that séemed to be earnest and zealous professors of the same but when the time of persecution came vnder Quéens Marie what became of that number howe fewe was there then in comparison doe you not thinke that if God should send a triall there would be founde in that citie many false brethren Moreouer in the time of prosperitie true Christians may without daunger shew themselues and remaine in their cities though the number be neuer so great but in the time of persecution they are dispersed into sundry places We may learne in the. 8. of the Actes that the Churche wholy remayned at Ierusalem vntill that persecution wherin Paule was a doer and that then they were dispersed shall we not then say that at Ierusalem the number of Christians by reason of persecution were few in comparison True it is that this dispersing was the cause why the Church of Christ was more enlarged yet in the meane time was the number of Christians at Ierusalem meruelously diminished Thus then you maye vnderstande if you please that this is a good reason to say the Church was then in persecution and therefore very few incomparison that embraced the Gospell both in the respect of the visible Church generally and also in respect of the same Churche particularly in euery ceuntrey or citie And yet it is true that Sanguis Martyrum est semen Ecclesiae The bloud of Martyrs is the seede of the Churche but that séede must haue time to grow in and I speake of the externall professors of the Gospell That which you write to ouerthrow my words touching the kéeping together and often méeting of such Churches as be persecuted confirmeth my meaning for I saye they kept together in the time of persecution and you affirme the same wherevpon I also conclude that therfore one of them must of necessitie be well knowne to another And althoughe our assemblies in time of prosperitie be peraduenture as frequent as Conference in the time of per secution is a cause of better knowing one another theirs is or rather more frequent yet haue we not such occasion to conferre one with another or to consider one another or to knowe one another as they haue for they then admitte none into their societie at their méetings but such as are knowen to be brethren and of whose Religion and zeale they haue good tryall And I thinke that those which haue béen exercised eyther in Fraunce or elsewhere in any suche time of persecutiō know this to be true that they know none so throughly or are acquainted with none so intirely as with such who haue béen with them in the time of persecution You would fayne if you coulde confute a knowne truth and a manifest thing for who would denie but that such as kepe together in the time of persecution muste of necessitie be knowne among themselues and beste iudge who is fittest among them for any function Chap. 6. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect. 3. Secondly in the Apostles time all or the most that were Christians The church now full of Hypocrits c. were vertuous and godly and suche as dyd sincerely professe the worde and therfore the election of their pastour might safely be committed to them nowe the Church is ful of Hypocrites dissemblers drunkardes whoremongers c. so that if anye election were committed to them they woulde be sure to take one lyke to themselues T. C. Page 34. Sect. I. To your second difference I answere that in deede there be Hypocrites in our Churches now and so were there then but more nowe than then I graunt you that also but there is no greate daunger in them as touching the election of the minister or Bishop for that in such open and publike actions that come into the eyes of all men there is no good man will doe so sincerely so holily as they will doe although it be fainedly The hurt that they doe is in closer and secreter matters But where you say our Churches are full of drunkards and whoremongers besides that you vtter or euer you be aware how euill successe the preaching of the Gospell hath had here for want of discipline and good Ecclesiasticall gouernmenie you bewraye a greate ignorance For althoughe a A daungerous assertion tending to the doctrine of the Anabaptistes there be Hypocrites which beare the face of godly men in the churche whose wickednesse is onely knowne to God and therefore can not be discouered by men yet in * the churches of Christ there be no drunkardes nor whoremongers at least which are knowne For eyther vpon Admonition of the Churche they repent and so are neyther drunkardes nor whoremongers or else they are cutte off by excommunication if they continue stubberne in their synnes and so are none of the Churche and therefore haue nothing to doe in the election of the Minister of the Churche And me thinketh you shoulde not haue bene ignorant of this that although there be tares in the floure of the Church which are lyke the wheate and therefore being grounde easily meeteth together Mat. 13. in the loafe yet there are no acornes which are bread for swine And although there be goat s amongst the flocke of the Churche bycause they haue some likelyhoode with the sheepe feedyng as Mat. 25. they doe giuing milke as they doe yet in the Churche of Christ there are no swine nor hogges it pertaineth to God onely to seuer the tares from the wheate and the goates from the sheepe but the Churches can discerne betwene wheate and acornes betwene swine and sheepe Io. Whitgifte There be not onely Hypocrites which deale syncerely in nothing no not in publyke actions but there be such also as be corrupt both in Religion and life who woulde no doubte be as corrupt in elections if they might haue to doe therein as they are in other matters In saying that the Church is now ful of Hypocrites drunkards whoremongers Drunkards whoremōgers in the visible churche c. I derogate no more from the good successe that the preaching of the Gospell hath had than the lyke or greater faultes dyd from the same in the Churche of Corinthe and Galatia The Churche is a net that gathereth together of all kinde of fyshe Mat. 13. it is a fielde wherein the deuill soweth tares as fast as the
to him alone who knoweth those that be his If they communicate with vs in hearing the worde and receyuing the Sacramentes thoughe otherwyse they be drunkardes supersticious or infected with errours in doctrine c. yet must we count them in the Church vntil they be cut of from it by excommunication Wherefore whoremōgers Papistes Idolatrous and superstitious persons though they be knowne to be suche if they do cōmunicate with vs in the word and sacraments are to be counted in the Church vntill they be orderly secluded from the same And yet there may be Papistes Atheistes and suche lyke though they be not commonly knowne to be suche And you knowe well inough that they which in déede are Papistes in opinion yet if they be content to conforme them selues to the outwarde orders of the Churche would stande in their owne defense agaynst him that should accuse them They 〈◊〉 are in the Church and not of the Church are not hypocrite onely T. C. eueth place agaynst himselfe Neither is it true that onely hypocrites are suche as be in the Churche and are not of the Churche That chapter which you quote in your margent and almost the whole Epistle doth declare the contrarie For the incestuous Corinthian was in the Church vntill he was excommunicated And the Apostle there speaking of whoremongers Idolaters c ▪ sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur fuerit s ortator c. If any whiche is called Cor. 5. a brother be a fornicatour or couetous or an Idolater or a rayler or a drunkarde or an extortioner with suche one eate not By the name of brethren were those onely then called whiche did professe themselues to be Christians and were so accounted to be And master Caluine speaking agaynst the like errour of the Anabaptistes after that he had spoken of hypocrites in the Churche addeth and sayth Nonnunquà m etiam admixti Caluin aduers. Anabap. contemptores dei vitae dissolutae flagitiosae aut qui sibi cauebunt ne reprehendantur ab hominibus sed interim ostendunt se nullo dei timore nulla reuercntia tangi Oftentimes also there are mingled contemners of God men of dissolute and wicked life or suche as wil be sure to keepe them selues out of daunger of mens reprehension when as notwithstanding they shewe themselues not to be touched with any feare or reuerence of God If you meane that place 1. Cor. 5. where S. Paule sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur c. If any man which is called a brother c. and thinke that thereby they are secluded from the externall societie of the Churche you take the words of S. Paule amisse as the Anabaptistes did to whome obiecting that place M. Caluine answered in his booke written agaynst them in this maner Quòd autem vetat Paulus cum his cibum sumere Ibidem qui sunt vitae dissolutae id ad priuatam consuetudinem pertinet nō ad publicam cōmunionem VVheras Paule forbiddeth that we should eate with them which are of a dissolute life and behauiour that perteyneth onely to priuate familiaritie and not to the publike cōmunion Nowe if we ought to receyue the Communion with them we ought also to accompt them in the externall societie of the Churche But why do you thus séeke to shifte of those matters whiche you can not answere Is it not certayne that there is in the externall societie of the Churche a farre greater number of suche than there was in the Apostles time whiche if it be true as it can not be denied then do I still affirme that the election of the minister can not be safely committed to the people It is wel that you take vpō you to prescribe vnto the Magistrate how to deale with such as be not in the Church I pray you where finde you any such maner of dealing towards them appoynted vnto the ciuill Magistrate if you haue any scripture for it why do you not alleage it if you haue none what presumption is entred into you thus imperiously to prescribe lawes vnto Magistrates But what if there be playne scripture that they ought not to be admitted to the hearing of the worde if they be Math. 7. dogges and swine what say you to this Giue not that which is holy to dogges neither cast ye your pearles to swyne Your distinction betwixte the Churche and the common wealthe if it were in Neroes or Dioclesians time mighte be admitted withoute exception but in my opinion it is not so fytte in thys tyme and especially in this kingdome Maye he be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not in the Church of Christ if you had sayde that he maye be in the power and at the wyll and pleasure of a Christian Magistrate that is not in the Churche of Christe I coulde well haue lyked of it but it can not yet synke into my head that he should be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not also a member of the Churche of Christ concerning the outwarde societie M. Musculus in my iudgement speaketh truely agaynst this distinction of yours betwixte the Church and a Christian common wealth in his com pla it de magistra Let the Ethnikes and Infidels liuing not in the vnitie of truth but in the confusion Musculus of errors haue diuerse Magistrates and lawmakers some prophane and some holy bycause their lyfe is altogether prophane and their Religion nothing else but superstition Christian people are in euery respecte holy and consecrated vnto the name and glory of Christ not in temples onely and ecclesiasticall ceremonies but in all their lyfe in euerye place at all times in all things actions and studyes that according to the Admonition of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eateth or drinketh or whatsoeuer he doth he doth it to the glorie of God c. wherfore that distinction of ecclesiasticall and prophane lawes can haue no place in it bycause there is nothing in it that is prophane seyng that it is a holy people vnto the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie holy hys lawes holy c. be it therefore farre from the Church of Christ that it should be partly holy partly prophane c. But all this from the purpose and you make to many friuolous digressions from the matter which compelleth me also in following you to doe the lyke Chap. 6. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 2. Fiftly in the Apostles time there was no Churche established being In the Apostles time no church established and no christian Magistrate then no Christian Magistrates and therefore the state of the Church was popular nowe there is Christian Magistrates and a Church established and subiect to rulers c. T. C. Pag. 35. Sect. 1. If there be no churches established bycause there were no Christian Magistrates then the churches of the Apostles were not established
with false worshippings but they remained as yet in the doctrine Religion which they had receiued of the Apostles wherfore it might well be that a true minister might be chosen by their cōmon suffrages But after that the number of Christiās was encreased to an infinite multitude first schismes then generall ignorance blindnesse sundry kinds of superstitiō inuaded the Church c. there could no longer any true sincere minister be elected by the generall consent of the people c. wherefore for the conditiō of the time necessitie it self required that Princes Magistrates should commit this matter to certaine wise mē carefull for the Church by whose meanes meete pastors might be placed c. then he addeth that for the circumstāces of time as in all Churches the Apostolicall forme of electing ordeining cannot be restored ▪ so is there no cause why the minister of Christ being called to preach the Gospell by a godly Prince Magistrate shuld doubt of his calling whether it be right Christian or no. But he must remēber that where the state of the Church of Religiō is corrupt another way must be found out to remedie the same than that which was vsed in the Churches when all things was safe and sound In the end he declareth what maner of electing ordeining Ministers is vsed in y e church of Berne Neyther doth he in that place or any other that I knowe goe aboute to defende the election vsed in the Church where he was Minister by this that it approched vnto the election of the Primitiue Church as you report him to do Thus haue I truely reported Musculus his wordes in that place and his order than the whiche what can be more directly spoken to my purpose whiche is to proue that no one certaine maner and forme of electing Ministers is anywhere appointed to be generall and perpetuall but that the same may be altered accordyng to place tyme and persons and that the manner vsed in the Apostles time is not méete and conuenient for this time All this I saye Musculus hath plainely and by good reasons héere proued whyche he doth also as manifestly confirme in the title de Magistratibus For after that he hath declared that it perteineth to the Magistrate to appoint Church Ministers he sayth dices at secùs factum est in primis ecclesijs in quibus à ministris plebe eligebantur ecclesiarum antistites respondeo talis tum ecclesiarum erat status c. as it is in my answere For the subiection and bondage of the Church which you so often talke of this is my answere in few words that subiection to lawful Magistrates in matters lawful is no bondage to any but to such as thinke dutifull obedience to be seruitude bondage as the Anabaptistes do Why the people are debarred from electing which you call the Apostolicall forme of the choise of the Pastor you may learne by that which hath béen hetherto spoken if you be so desirous to learne as you would séeme to be That the minister may be well assured of the lawfulnesse of his calling though The minister may be assured of hys calling though he be not chosen by the people he be not called of the people you haue also hearde of Musculus who of purpose answereth that doubte He that is sure of an inwarde calling néede not to doubt of hys outward calling if it be according to the manner and forme of that Church wherein he is called That the people doe as willingly now submit them selues to their Pastors and gouernours though they haue no interest in electing of them as they did then experience teacheth in all places where there be good and vertuous pastors except onely in such as you and yours haue set on fire with contention and contempte You saye to assigne the cause hereof to the Christian Magistrate c. We giue vnto the Magistrate that which of duetie belongeth vnto him in the respecte that he is a Christian Magistrate and hath the chiefe gouernment of the Church in all causes ouer all persons and you desirous of popularitie withdraw from the Magistrate that which is due vnto him giuing the same to the people and vulgar sort You counte it an abridging of the libertie of the Church a diminishing of the pastors assurance of his calling a withdrawing of the people from the pastor to be shorte a brynging of the people into bondage for the Magistrate to mainteine his right in vsing that kinde of appointing Ministers which he thinketh to be most profitable for the Churche committed vnto him and is not this to doe great iniurie to the office of the Magistrate Why doe you not plainely say that the Quéenes Maiestie abridgeth the libertie of the Church diminisheth the pastors assurance of his calling withdraweth the people from their pastor vrgeth and constraineth them to that which is voluntarie bringeth them into bondage bicause she will not suffer them to haue fredome in the elections of their Bishops and Pastors for this is your plaine meaning But temper your popular and vndutifull speaches the true The true libertie of the Church libertie of the Church which is libertie of conscience and fredome from false doctrine errors and superstitions and not licence for euery man to doe what himselfe liweth was neuer more in any Church pastors neuer had better cause to be assured of their calling the people at no time more bound to cleaue to their pastors neuer lesse cause to complaine of vrging constraint seruitude or bondage than they haue at this daye vnder hir Maiestie but you go about to perswade them to the contrary which where vnto it tendeth would be in time considered Musculus saythe that this manner of ordering Ministers for he doth not call it T. C. transfei reth y t corruptions of mens myndes to the gouernment forced elections is a remedie against corrupted states not in respect of laws gouernment Magistrate or Religion by authoritie established but of menues myndes that are corrupted with errors contentions and sinister affections and this is no dishonor to the ciuill gouernor For if in a kingdome there be many wayward and disordered persons the fault is in themselues and not in the Magistrate nor in the kind of gouernment but a great commendation rather when as by the diligence of the Magistrate and profitable kinde of gouernment such disordered persons be corrected and reformed or at the least kept vnder and restrained Is it a dishonor to the Prince that where as she founde the whole Realme corrupted in doctrine now it is otherwyse though not in the heartes of many yet in externall forme and publike regiment Wherefore you do but subtilly I will not saye contemptuously transfer that to the Magistrate and kynd of gouernment which Musculus meaneth of the corrupt mindes and affections of the common sort of men You adde that when it is sayd that the
contrary to the present state and that enelineth to libertie would vsually elect suche as would féede their humours So that the Prince neyther should haue quiet gouernment neyther could be able to preserue the peace of the Church nor yet to plant that religion that he in conscience is perswaded to be ncere As for the authoritie of isalowing their elections which you giue vnto him it is but an intollerable trouble and besides that he shall not vnderstand their doings or if he doth yet may he not depriue them of their libertie in choosing so that you make his authoritie in effect nothing Moreouer his Churches and whole kingdome shoulde be filled with Anabaptists Libertines Papists Puritanes and an hundreth sects mo or euer he were aware for who will complayne of him whome the people do phansi be he neuer so vnméete a person 3 My thirde reason is taken out of your owne booke Fol. 25. where you say that the If the people should choose the inferioure in gifts shuld be iudge of the superiour Pag. 25. lin 3. Archdeacon may not be iudge of the aptnesse and ablenesse of the Pastor bycause he is inferi re to the Pastor both in calling and gifts which if it be true then surely may not the people haue any thing to do in the election of the Pastor being in all respects much more inferioure vnto him than the Archdeacon is for to haue interest in electing is to be admitted to iudge of his meetenesse and aptnesse that is to be admitted 4 It would be a cause why many Churches shoulde be longer destitute of their Popular elections a cause of long want of pastors c Pastors than is conuenient for if an vnméete man were chosen and an appeale made to the next Pastours and from them to the next Synode prouinciall and then the parishioners that will not yéeld excommunicated and after excōmunication complayned of to the Prince and then driuen to a new election and in the same peraduēture as wayward as they were before whilest I say all this were in doing besides the maruellous schismes contentions brawlings and hatred that must of necessitie in the meane time be among them two or thrée yeares might soone be spent for all these things cannot be in due order well done in lesse time al which time the parishes must be destitute of a pastor burne with those mischiefes that I haue before recited 5 It would make the gouernment of the Church popular which is the worst kind Popular election a cause of a popular gouernment of gouernment that can be For it is true that M. Caluine saith cap. 20. Instit. Procliuis est à regno c. The fall from a kingdome into a tyrannie is very redy and the change from the gouernment of the best into the Factions of a fewe is not much harder but the fall from a popular state into a sedi ion is of all other most easie 6 The people as I haue said before through affection and want of iudgement are The people easily led by affection easily brought by ambitious persons to giue their consent to vnworthy men they are soone moued by the request of their frends and of such as they eyther feare or loue to do anything as may appeare in sundry things cōmitted vnto thē of great importāce yea sometime when by oth they are bound to deale without al affection or parcialitie 7 By this meanes they would thinke to haue their pastor bound vnto them so that A hindrance to the Pastor in doing his duty they would take it disdainefully to be reproued by him according as his duetie would require Againe the pastoure considering their good will in preferring of him woulde not so freely 〈◊〉 them nor willingly displease them 8 To conclude the people are for the most part rude and ignorant carelesse also in The people vnfit to be iudges in such cases Chrys. 2. in 〈◊〉 suche matters and more me te to be ruled than to rule For as Chrysostome de eth Populus est quiddam tumultus c. The people is a certaine thing full of tumult and sturres consisting and rashly compacted for the most part of folly oftentimes tossed with variable and contrary iudgement like to the waues of the sea c. These and a great number mo reasons may be alleadged why the people are to be s uded from the election of their Pastors and yet do I not so vtterly seclude them from such elections but that if they haue any thing to obiect agaynste him that is to be ordeyned they might be heard which order is prescribed in the booke of making ministers and that is asmuche as can be required Althoughe I doe not condemne those Churches wherin this is safely committed vnto them for I only speake of the present estate of this Churche of Englande The reason why I doe thinke the Bishops to be the fittest to haue both the allowing and ordeyning of such as are to be ministers I haue expressed in my answere to the Admonition And they are not as yet by better reasons confuted Of ministers hauing no pastorall charge of ceremonies vsed in ordeining ministers of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes Tract 4. Of ministers admitted a place being not voyd Chap. 1. The first Diuision The Admonition The seuenth Then none admitted to the ministerie but (u) Act. 1. 25. a place was voyd afore hand to which he should be called Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 47. Sect. 1. 2. TO proue this you cite in the margent the first of the Acts wher it is declared howe Mathias was chosen in the place of Iudas to make vp the number of the. xij Apostles Surely this is but a slender reason Mathias was chosen into the place of Iudas Ergo no man must be admitted into the ministerie excepte a place before hande be voyde to the which he should be called Euery meane sophister will laugh at the childishnesse of this argument Mathias was chosen to be an Apostle and not to any certaine cure and therfore this example proueth nothing T. C. Page 42. Sect. 4. The reason is of greater force than you woulde seeme to make it for as the. xij place was to Mathias so is a certain Church vnto a Pastor or Minister as the Apostles ordeined none vnto that place before it was voyd so ought not the Bishop ordeyn any vntil there be a Churche voyde and destitute of a pastor And as the Apostles ordeined not any Apostle further than they had testimonie Act. ▪ of the word of God as it appeareth that S. Peter proceedeth by that rule to the election so ought no Bishop ordeyn any to any function which is not in the scripture appointed But there are by the word of God at this tyme no ordinarie ministers Ecclesiastical which be not local and tyed to one congregation therfore this sending abrode of ministers whiche haue no places is vnlawfull Io. Whitgifte As
neeessarie to sende my brother Epaphroditus to you my companion in laboure and fellovv souldiour euen your messanger and he that ministred vnto me suche thinges as I vvanted Collossians 1. verse 7. As ye also learned of Epaphras our deare fellovve seruant vvhich is for you a faythful minister of Christ. Quorsum haec Howe proue these places that all Ministers then preached That of Luke chapter 9. proueth aswell that they cured diseases as that they preached and therefore out of that place you mighte aswell conclude that all Ministers oughte to be curers of sicknesses aswell as preachers This I wryte onely to let you vnderstande your vanitie and ignoraunce in quoting so many Scriptures to so small purpose Io. Whitgifte Ad haec ne verbum quidem but onely to the place of the nynthe of Luke and that out of place Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 52. Sect. vlt. I wishe that euery minister were a preacher but that beeing vnpossible as the state is now I see not how you can cōdemne reading Fayth commeth by reading ministers seeing reading is necessarie in the Church fayth cōmeth aswel by reading the scriptures in the booke as by rehearsing of thē without booke In the. 31. of Deut. it is thus written Leges verba legis huius coram omni Israel c. Thou shalt reade the vvords of this booke before all Israell c. S. Paule sayth in the. 15. to the Rom. 〈◊〉 scripta sunt c. VVhatsoeuer is vvritten c. But I neuer heard reading of the scriptures The Zuinfildians condemne reading of scripture reading of prayers reading of Homilies taken out of the scripture condemned but onely by the Authors of this booke and by the zuinfildians T. C. Page 50. Sect. vlt. Pag. 51. Sect. 1. If you should beget and be a father of many bookes and all your children like their eldest brother you would without better aduise shake many groundes of our religion For heere agayne you wishe that all pastors were able to teache but that beeing vnpossible as the state is nowe you are content with Pastors or ministers that can doe nothing but reade You throughout your whole booke make this a maruellous good estate and alwayes turne the best side outwarde and when men goe about to vrge the deformities thereof to the ende they mighte be remedied then you lay open the shame and nakednesse of it and make it greater than it is in deede For as I haue shewed before the Church standeth not so muche in neede of your reading ministers as you would make the worlde beleeue And although it be a great deformitie and sore plague of the Churche whiche you here speake of and confesse at vnwares yet you will let no man come neare to heale it There be some make a gayne by sores and sore legges and therefore they haue a medicine to keepe their woundes alwayes greene that they should not heale I hope you do not of purpose keepe the Churche in this estate but this I dare say that the chiefe of your gayne and of your honour consisteth and is grounded in the ruines of the Churche and therefore I desire you to tooke vnto it Io. Whitgifte I omit whatsoeuer you héere speake agaynst my person for I am purposed to absteine The causes of the lacke of able ministers from requiting you in like sorte onely I will answere for my selfe where you labour to slaunder me The cause of lacke of a sufficient number of méete ministers in this Church is neyther the religion professed nor the gouernment that is vsed nor yet the gouernours But partly the crueltie of the times past wherein numbers of méete ministers haue bin consumed partly the vn willingnesse of mē in this present time which haue not that zeale to enter into this calling that is to be wished and partly nay chiefly principally you your schismes which haue caused some to cast off their ministerie wholly some to forsake their pastorall charges and yet to kéepe their Prebendes and other liuings some to depraue the ministerie condemne it and by all meanes possible alienate as many from it as they can And therefore nothing that I confesse of the scarsitie of méete able ministers derogateth any thing eyther from the doctrine professed in this Church or frō the kinde of gouernment or the Magistrates but rather cōmendeth the same bicause notwithstanding al the former impediments yet hath it a number of excellent ministers doth continually bréed mo If any confession tende to the condemnation of any it is of you your adherents who haue more hindred slaundered the Gospel in this realme of England than the Papists eyther haue done or could possibly do And I am fully persuaded that one of the greatest deformities suffered in this Church is lacke of discipline towardes you who be so farre from healing any sore in the Church that the more you be suffered the greater doe you wounde it And in very déede the reformation you pretende is nothing but a méere confusion or rather subuersion bothe of the Churche and common wealthe also My honour and gaine is but verie small yet it is more than I am worthie of but I trust the tyme will come when as such boyling affections vttered in so spitefull a maner will be made manyfest and I pray God it be not imputed vnto you in that day If my houour and gayne be other than may stande with the good and prosperous estate of the churche I am readie to yelde it vp whensoeuer I shall by due authoritie be required In the meane tyme God be iudge betwixt you and me Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 51. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. But what if the estate of the Church be suche as you speake of that it will scarce yeeld three preaching Pastors and Bishops in some Diocesse may you therfore make reading ministers In deed if the Apostle had made this a councell only and no commaundement that Pastors of churches should be able to teache then your saying might haue bene borne But seyng that S. Paule hath commaunded expressedly that he should be able to teache and Tim. 1. 3. to conuince the gaynsayers I would learne of you gladly what necessitie there is whiche can Tit. 1. cause a man to breake the morall law of God to bring in a tradition of man You may as wel break any other commaundement of God for necessities sake as breake this being comprehended in the fyrst table And tosay that these that can only reade must be tolerated in the Church as ministers is to say bycause you can haue no Pastors in the Churches you will haue idolls for so will I not doubt to call them although through ignorance of that whiche they do some may be good men But yet in respect of the place that they occupie they are idolls for they stand for that and make shew of that
of Papistrie as your manner is and for my part I thinke it to be the part of all dutifull subi cts to kéepe lawes and orders appoynted and to sée other kéepe them also if they be therevnto called Surely he that is a Papist indéede cannot wish well to hir 〈◊〉 but if he communicate with vs in the sacraments heare the word preached and come to our Churches I will thinke and hope the best of him But if he refuse so to do as there be di ers such so long as he so continueth I must count him an enemie to religion to the Churche and to the Prince be he Papist Anabaptist or whatsoeuer For he that in hart and in déede misliketh the religiō cannot like wel of such as mainteine the same Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 53. Sect. 1. There are also numbers of those which haue all Antichristianitie in such detestation that they cannot abide the least scrappe of it and when they see the ministers weare them they are greeued in their harts and they beginne somewhat to feare least this communicating with the Papists in apparell should make some way to those which vse them the easier to admitte other things when they should be likewise commaunded And these brethrens minds are not to be lightly greeued and the ministers if they thinke to profite them must cut away all occasion whereby they may haue an euill opinion of them Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine in his booke against the Anabaptists after he had spoken some thing against The puritie which can abide no imper fection is diuelish the Puritanes and Donatists hath this saying worthy to be noted Here therfore we may be admonished that when as vnder the pretence of the study of perfection we can tolerate no imperfection eyther in the body or in the members of the Church that then the Deuill dothe make vs swell with pride and dothe seduce vs by hypocrisie that he might prouoke vs to forsake the flocke of Christ knowing assuredly that he dothe obteyne the victory when he draweth vs from the same For seeinge yther remission of sinnes or health is in no other place although we outwardly beare the countenance of an Angelicall ☞ conuersation yet if we do with such boldnesse separate ourselues from the Christian felowship we are become Deuils If thys be to be feared in such as shew thys prepostorous zeale agaynste that whiche is blameworthy what shall we thinke of those that vnder the pretence of zeale deface the minister and the word that he preacheth for doing that which is lawfull and the whiche of duetie he ought to do If the minister shoulde applie himselfe to please the people and suche especially of whome you séeme to speake in this place his greatest study had néede to be how to transforme himselfe dayly into a new shape But most certaine it is that you study to much to please the people And that is the occasion of so many nouelties whereby they are most commonly delighted est natura hominis nouitatis auida Chap. 1. the eight Diuision T. C. Page 53. Sect. 2. Seing that therefore this kind of Ceremonies in apparell harden the harts of the Papistes and cause them to be the stiffer in thir poperie hinder the weake from profyting in the knowledge of the Gospell greeue the minds of the godly are occasion of an euill opinion vnto them of their ministers we thinke that these ceremonies are to be remoued as not only not profitable which they ought to be but hurtfull if not to the ministers themselues that vse them yet to their people to whome they are commaunded by God to haue regard vnto in these thinges that are indifferent in their owne natures Now I will come to that which you set downe Io. Whitgifte Seing that not one word of that is true and if it were yet the erroure and false perswasion of the minde rather to be refourmed than relented vnto I sée no cause why thys kind of apparell being commaunded ought not to be vsed except you will leaue to euery man libertie to do what him list or suffer the fansies of some to rule Prince Councell Byshops Church and all That ministers were knowne in times past by distinct apparell ▪ Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision Admonition The eleuenth In those days knowne a 1. Samuel 9 18. Mat. 26. 48 Mat. 26. 7 by voyce learning and doctrine now they must be discerned from other by popish and antichristian apparell as cappe gowne tippet c. Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 53. Sect. vlt. Pag. 54. Sect. 1. 2. To proue that in those days ministers were knowne by voice learning Uayne and childish all gations and doctrine you cite the ninth of the first of Samuell and the 26. of Mathew In all that ninth Chapter of Samuell there is not one word that maketh for this purpose except you meane this that when Saule asked of Samuell where the Seers house was Samuell answered againe that he was the Seer If this be to be knowen by voice learning and doctrine the ignorantest minister that is may soone be knowne by his voyce learning and doctrine for if you aske him where is such a man he can answer you I am he In the. 26. of Mathew the first place vers 48. is this Novv he that betraied him had giuen them a token saying vvhosoeuer I shall kisse that is he lay holde on him The multitude that came with Iudas knew christ by Iudas kissing of him therfore in those days ministers were knowen by voice learning and doctrine The second place in that Chapter alleadged vers 73. is this They that stoode by said vnto Peter surely thou art also one of them for euen thy speach bevvrayeth thee Peter was suspected by his speach to be a Galilean and therefore one of Christes Apostles Ergo a minister was then knowen by voice learning An argument retorted vpon the aduersary and doctrine You may aswell of that place gather thus Peter preached not Christ thē but denied him Ergo a minister must be knowen by denying of christ Lord God what dare not these mē alledge for their purpose I know that the chiefe tokens whereby a minister ought to be knowen is doctrine and learning but you childishly abuse the scripture and play with the same Now you say ministers must be discerned from other by Popish A minister may be knowen by his apparell and Antichristian apparell as cappe gowne tippet c. Do you thinke that bycause a minister oughte to be knowen by his voyce learning and doctrine therefore he may not be also knowen by hys apparell Iohn the Baptist had peculiar apparell and was knowen by it Christ had distinct apparell from other for his coate had neuer a seame T. C. Pag. 53. Sect. 3. 4. The places alledged by the Admonitiō with others which may be cited howsoeuer you deride them are otwithstanding probable coniēctures (*) They were quoted
by an Antichristian Pope it is first to be considered whether that be true or no. Then if it be true whether euery thing so inuented is of necessitie to be abolished T C. Page 55. Sect. 3. The matter lyeth (*) Then the ease is altered of late not in that whether these things were first inuented by Papistes or being deuised of others were after taken by the Papistes but the matter standeth in this that they haue bene vsed of the Papistes as notes and markes and sacraments of their abhominations Io. Whitgifte You alter the case as oft as it pleaseth you and libertie you haue to affirme or denie what you list when you list and where you list without controlement for hitherto I am sure your chiefe groundes against the apparell hath béen that the same was inuented by Popes and vsed by them But take your pleasure That which followeth in my Answere to the Admonition is directly against this your grounde also if you will stande to it and not shrinke Chap. 5. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 56. Sect. vlt. It is certaine that this apparell of ministers which you find your selues so much greeued with was appointed long before the church Stephanus a good Bishop inuented this apparell of Rome declined from the puritie of Christs Religion for Stephanus Bishop of Rome who liued the yeare of our Lord. 256. is sayde to be the first which did appoint this kinde of apparell for ministers neyther are you able to shewe that any Antichristian Pope inuented the same But admit it were so that this apparell was either borowed of the Iewes or taken from the Gentiles or inuented and vsed by Things inuented by euil men may be vsed of Christians some Antichristian Pope yet it followeth not but that the same may be well vsed of Christians in the Churche of Christ. Io. Whitgifte To this T. C. speaketh not one word good or euill Chap. 5. the thirde Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 57. Sect. 1. Page 58. Sect. 1. Augustine in his Epistle ad Publicolam hathe this notable saying Augustinus Et cum templa idola luci si quid buiusmodi data potestate euertuntur quamuis manifestum est cum id agimus non ea nos honorare sed potius detestari ideò tamen in vsus nostros priuatos duntaxat proprios non debemus indè aliquid vsurpare vt appareat nos pietate ista destruere non auaritia Cum verò in vsus communes non proprios ac priuatos vel in honorem dei veri conuertuntur hoc de illis fit quod de ipsis hominibus cum ex sacrilegis impijs in veram religionem mutantur c. VVhen temples Idols groues and such like things by authoritie be ouerthrovvne althoughe it is manifest vvhen vvedoe that vve honour Priuate vse of idolatrous things forbidden them not but detest them yet for all that vve may not therefore conuert thē or vse them to our ovvne priuate vses onely and commoditie that it may appeare that vve destroy them for Religion sake and not for couetousnesse But vvhen they are conuerted not into priuate and our ovvne vse but into common vses or to the honor of the true God that is done and brought to passe in them vvhich is done and brought to passe in men them selues whē of Idolaters and vvicked persons they are chaunged into true Religiō This hath God himselfe taught in those testimonies vvhich thou thy selfe haste vsed vvhen as God himselfe commaunded that of that same groue vvhich vvas dedicated to straunge Gods there shoulde be wood taken for his sacrifices and of Hierico that all the Golde and Siluer and brasse shoulde be brought into the treasurie of the Lorde VVherefore that also vvhich is vvritten in Deutronomie thou shalt not couet their siluer nor their golde neyther shalt thou take any thing therof to thy selfe least thou offende bycause it is abhomination vnto the Lord thy God c. It manifestly appearreth that eyther priuate vses is forbydden in such things or that nothing should so be brought into thy house that it be honored for then it is abhomination c. Hetherto Augustine By these wordes it doth manifestly appeare that euen things altogether Idolatrous things turned to cōmon vse dedicated to Idols and vsed in Idolatrie may be conuerted to common vses and vsed in the seruice of God and to his honor but not to priuate vses nor superstitiously T. C. Pag. 55. Sect. 4. As for Augustine his place it is to be vnderstanded of such things as haue (*) This shift 〈◊〉 answered 〈◊〉 ward a necessarie vse and therefore may not be taken away from vs by the superstition of men For so we might also be depriued of the sunne which is as it were the life of the worlde bycause the sunne hath bene worshipped But that Saint Augustine did not like of this kinde of reteining ceremonies it maye (*) This shift 〈◊〉 answered 〈◊〉 ward appeare Do you aske saith he how the Paganes may be wonne how they may be brought to saluation August om 10. de verbis domini in Mattheum m. 9. forsake their solemnities let go their toyes and then if they agree not vnto our truth let thē be ashamed of their fewnesse whereby he sheweth that the nearest waye to gaine the Papistes is to forsake their ceremonies And yet I woulde be lothe to saye eyther with you or with Augustine that it is not lawfull for a man to make of a Popishe surplisse a shirte for himselfe or to take the golde of a Cope which he hath boughte and conuert it to his priuate vse And herein we do nothing disagree with Saint Augustine whiche graunt that surplesses and copes and tippets and cappes may be applyed to a good vse eyther common or priuate as they will best serue but we denie that that vse is in distinguishing either the ministers from other men or the ministers executing their ecclesiasticall function from themselues when they doe not exercise that office Io. Whitgifte The wordes of Augustine be plaine neyther can they be so shifted of And it maketh euidently against your distinction that he sayth such things may not be conuerted into priuate vses A man may cauill with the most manifest authorities either of scriptures or fathers that can be but euery shifte and cauill is not a sufficient answere This proposition is by these wordes of Augustine directly proued that things altogether dedicated to Idols and vsed in Idolatrie may be afterwarde vsed in the seruice of God and to his honour which is the state of our question And bycause this is a materiall poynt and peraduenture Saint Augustine his authoritie is not much regarded of you I will set downe M. Caluine his opinion also touching the same matter who in hys Harmonie vpon the bookes of Moyses vpon these words in the. 23. of Erodus ver 24. Thou shalt vtterly ouerthrowe and breake in
something you will saye how vnaptly soeuer least you shoulde séeme to giue place to the plaine truth These vestures are neyther vsed at the tables of Idolls nor with the offence of the the weake as I haue she wed before they are knowne of all men to be notes of the ministers of the Gospell aswell as the bell is knowne to be rong to godly prayers and preachings c. and therefore you haue spoken but aunswered nothing Chap. 5. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 60. Sect ▪ 2. Bullinger and Gualter in the epistle before alledged answering thys Bullinger and Gualter question whether we may weare such apparell as the Papistes do say on this sort If vve shoulde haue nothing common vvith them then must vve forsake all our Churches refuseal liuings not minister baptisme not say the Apostles or Nicene creede yea and quite cast avvay the Lordes prayer neyther do you borrovv any ceremonies of them The matter of apparell vvas neuer taken avvay at the beginning of reformation and is yet reteyned not by the Popes lavv but by the kings commaundemente as an indifferēt thing of meere pollicie Yea truly if you vveare a cap or a peculiliar kind of apparell as a ciuill and politique thing it smelleth neyther of Iudaisme nor Monachisme For these vvill seeme to separate themselues from the ciuill and common life and accompt a meritorious deede in the vvearing of a peculiar garment So Eustathius Byshop of Sebastia vvas not Superstition in garments condemned simply condemned for vvearing a peculiar kind of garment but for that he did put religion in his garment The canons of the councell of Gangren Laodicen and of the sixt councell are vvell knovvne If in case any of the people be persvvaded that these things sauoure of Papisme Monachisme or Iudaisme let them be told the contrary and perfectlye instructed therein And if so be through the importunate crying out hereon before the people by some men many be disquieted in their conscience let them bevvare vvhiche so do that they bring not greater yokes on their ovvne necks and prouoke the Queenes maiestie and bring many faithfull ministers in suche danger as they cannot ridde themselues out againe Hitherto Bullinger T. C. Pag. 56. Sect. 1. 2. 3. The rest of those things which M. Bucer and those which M. Bullinger and Gualter bring are all of that sort wherevnto answer is made Only this they adde that if the people do abuse and peruerte those ceremonies they oughte to be better instructed which is a counsell not so conuenient that the ministers and Pastors whiche haue so many necessarie poyntes to bestowe theyr tyme on and to enforme the people of shoulde bee driuen to cut off their tyme appoynted therto to teache them not to abuse these things which if they vse neuer so well they can gayn nothing and to take heed that they hurte not themselues at those things whiche in their best estate doe no good especially when one sermon of the taking of them awaye ioyned wyth authoritie to execute it may doe more good than a thousande sermons without authoritie Besydes that it is absurde that Ceremonies whyche oughte to be helpers to promote the doctrine shoulde become lettes and hinderances whylest the minister is occupyed in teachyng to beware of the abuse of them and of superstition And it is as muche as if one shoulde be sette to watche a chyide all daye long least he hurte himselfe with the knyfe when as by takyng awaye the knyfe quite from him the daunger is auoyded and the seruice of the man better employed And so it followeth that althoughe the Churche maye appoynte Ceremonies and rites yet it can not appoynte these that haue greate incommoditie and no commoditie greate offence and no edifying Io. Whitgifte You haue omitted diuers things in the woordes of these learned menne wherevnto you haue not answered one woorde as the Reader by conference maye perceyue and here you haue also willyngly passed ouer that whiche toucheth you somethyng pinchingly in these woordes of M. Bullinger and M. Gualter scil And if so bee thorough the importunate crying out hereon before the people c. If to preache the truthe of the right vse of these Ceremonies be not so conuenient The reason retourned vp on himselfe bycause the Pastors haue so many necessarie poyntes c. how commeth it to passe that you and your partakers haue so pestered your sermons and bookes therewith and so long tyme taught the people nothyng else but contempte of all good order and obedience in suche matters and haue stirred them vp against the true preachers of the Gospell and agaynst their Magistrates and rulers for the selfe same thyng Is it not as conuenient for vs to roote out of the peoples myndes errours touchyng things indifferent as it is for you to ingrafte them or is not the doctrine of the true and lawfull vse of indifferent things of due obedience towardes lawes and Magistrates a necessarie doctrine Where as you say it is absurde that Ceremonies whiche oughte to be helpers to promote The doctrine of things indifferent necessary Things abused must not by and by be taken away the doctrine shoulde become lettes and hinderances c. I will not saye you speake absurdly but vndoubtedly you speake vnaduisedly For will you haue things indifferent abrogated so soone as they be abused east they should becom lets hinderances whilest the minister is occupied in teaching c. then take awaye tythes landes meates c. The abuse wherof must of necessitie oftentymes be reprehended in sermons and the true vse taughte and make all thinges common that the preachers in their sermons maye be occupied aboute greate matters Doe you not sée that doctrine of thinges indifferente is necessarie vnderstande you not that the taking awaye of the thinges from the eyes dothe not by and by roote the opinion out of the hearte Thynges abused muste not alwayes bée taken away when they are abused but the right vse must be taught and the abuse reproued The chylde when he hath discretion and is able to be instructed though he sometyme hurte hymselfe with the knyfe yet must not the same be altogether taken from him but he muste be rebuked for vsyng it so vndiscretely and taughte to vse it better Shall the ryche and costely apparell be taken from Princes nobles and men women of estate and they brought to a popularitie therin bycause there is great abuse oftentymes in such apparell and many prouocations to euill No truly but suche kyndes of abuses are to bée by the worde of God reproued Neyther dothe suche instructions and doctrine in matters indifferente hynder preachers from weightyer matters Why didde the Apostles make theyr decree of absteyning à suffocato sanguine from that that is strangled and bloud or Sainct Paul of praying bare headed or Act. 15. couered 1. Corinth II. Whych thyngs afterward myght growe to abuse if they had not
so good a grace in them Chap. 5. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 56. Sect. vlt. And if there bee anye other argumentes touchyng anye of these poyntes in other places whiche I haue not gathered together into one the faulte is in thys that I coulde not bestowe so muche tyme in makyng a harmonie of the thynges whiche are at so greate dyscorde and then that whyche is lefte oute shall bee answered in place where I shall fynde it Nowe lette vs see M. Doctors 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and second nauigation touching apparel whether it bee any happier or haue any better successe than the fyrst Io. Whitgifte A proper excuse if any thing fall out in the whole booke whiche you can not answere as there be diuers which you haue not answered Diuers things concerning apparell in other places of the Ansvvere Chap. 6. the fyrst Diuision Admonition Nowe we muste haue Surplisses deuised by Pope Adrian Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 105. Sect. 1. 2. THe impurities you fynde in the administration of Baptisme bee these Surplis c. Touching the Surplis and suche lyke apparell I haue spoken before sufficiently the fyrste inuentor of it whyche you say to be Pope Adrian dot he make it neyther better nor woorse and yet it was vsed long before Adrians tyme neyther can you proue hym to be the fyrst inuentor thereof It is certayne that such kynde of vesture hath bene vsed in the ministration of the Sacramentes long before any corruption of doctrine tooke place in the Churche as it appeareth both by Hierome in his fyrst booke Aduersus Whyte garmente vsed in the ministration Pelagi where he maketh manifeste mention of a whyte garmente vsed in the Administration of Sacrifice by the Byshoppe Prieste and Deacon And also Chrysostome Hom. 6. to the people of Antioche who speaketh of the lyke garmente worne in the Churche Those that answered the examiner do but chyldishly cauill at these two places whyche in deede bee playne of themselues and euident and so is that of Hieromes also vpon the. 44. of Ezechiell The religion of God hath one habite in the ministration and an other in cōmon vse and lyfe Reade the place considerately and it shall easyly appeare that Hierome meaneth as well of Christian Ministers as of Iewishe Priestes But of the vse of this and other apparel prescribed in this Church to be worne by ministers I haue spoken partly before and am ready to speake more as occasion shall be offered In the meane tyme the Surplis is not of the substance of Baptisme neyther required as necessarie to the Administration therof but as comely and decent T. C. Page 57. Sect. 1. In the. 105. page M. Doctour to proue the vse of the Surplice to drawe out his booke into some competent volume borroweth certayne places of the examiner for answere wherevnto I will referre the reader to that whiche is answered vnto the examination as to a full and sufficient answere wherein I will reste and when M. Doctor hathe proued that whiche he sayeth that it is but a chyldish cauill he shall then heare further In the meane season it is but a slender replie to so learned an answere that proueth bothe out of other authours and out of those same whiche the examiner citeth that by a white garmente is mente a comely apparell and not slouenly to saye it is but a chyldish cauill whych a D. of Diumitie and of fortie yeares of age can not answere The place of Hierome vppon the 44. of Ezechiell the more it bee consydered the more shall appeare the truthe of the Answere Io. Whitgifte You haue not answered one worde of this but only shifted it of I purpose not A whyte garmente in the ministration vsed in Hieromes tyme. Hiero. lib. 1. aduers. Pelagi l 44. Ezecb. at this tyme to vnrippe the answere to the Examiner except you had taken the paines to set it downe Both the places of Hierome are to be séene in the one he sheweth that in the administration of the Sacramentes the Bishoppe Prieste and Deacon didde weare a white vesture And in the other he sayeth that the Religion of GOD hathe one habite in the ministration and an other in the common vse and lyfe Ioyne these two places together and sée whether the woords of Hierome be manyfest or no. And that it may euidently appeare that at this tyme wherein Hierome lyued the maner was to weare white garments in the tyme of diuine seruice and Administration of Sacramentes I will recite the wordes of the fourthe Councell of Carthage at the which there were present 214. Bishops among whome was S. Augustine Diaconus tempore oblationis tantùm vellectionis alba induatur Let the Deacon weare a whyte Con. Carth. 4. Can. 41. vesture only in the tyme of the oblation and reading Canone 41. And this may be a sufficient confutation to what soeuer is spoken of these places of Hierome in the answere to the Examiner Chap. 6. the second Diuision Admonition And as for the apparell though we haue ben long borne in hande and yet are that it is for order and decencie commaunded yet we knowe and haue proued that there is neither order nor com ynesse nor obedience in vsyng it There is no order in it but confusion no comlynesse but deformitie no obedience but disobedience both against God and the Prince Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 236. the last lyne but one Pag. 237. Sect. 1. TO all this also I haue answered before I meane to all the reasons here alleadged as for bare wordes they preuayle with none but suche as haue respecte to the persons not to the matter And therfore I omit these wordes of pleasure which you vse when you saye that in this apparell there is no order but confusion no comelynesse but deformitie no obedience but disobedience both against God and the Prince It is not euery priuate mannes parte to define what is order and comlynesse in externall matters being indifferente but is proper to Disobedience to the prince in ciuill matters is disobedience to God them only to whom God hath committed the gouernmente of hys church whose orders and lawes not beeing against the woorde of God whosoeuer doth disobey disobeyeth both God and the Prince as you do in disobeying the Princes lawes in these matters Io. Whitgifte Nothing is sayd to this although some part of it necessarily requireth an answer Chap. 6. the third Diuision Admonition We maruell that they coulde espie in the laste synode that a gray Amyse whiche is but a garment of dignitie should be a garment as they say defyled with superstition and yet that copes caps surplesses tippets and suche lyke baggage the preaching signes of Popishe priesthoode the Popes creatures kepte in the same forme to this ende to bring dignitie and reuerence to the ministers and sacraments should be reteyned still and not abolished Answere to the Admonition Pag. 237. Sect. 2. It
see heere that you haue not losed the knotte but cut it For the authors of the Admonition obiect the place of Esay 30. and you obiect againe the places of Deuteronomy and of the Iudges this is to oppose sword against sword in stead that you shoulde haue first holden out your buckler and latched the blow of your aduersary As for Churches it hath bin answered that they haue a profitable vse and therefore very euill compared with the surplis whiche beside that it bringeth no profyte hurteth also as is before said Io. Whitgifte That wood that golde and that Oxe c. was not so necessary but that bothe God might haue bin serued and the temple builded without them and therefore that is no answere Things dedicated to idolls may be conuerted to gods honour For although gold wood oxen c. be necessary yet the golde and siluer founde in I richo the Oxe reserued by Gedeons father and wood that was consecrated to Baal was not so necessary for there might haue bin other golde siluer wood oxen c. prouided In that God commaunded these things to be done you know that S. Augustine in the epistle ad Publicolam in the words before rehearsed doth conclude a generall doctrine that things dedicated to Idolls may be conuerted to common vses and to the honoure of God For he vseth the selfesame places to proue the same and answereth that which may be alledged to the contrary out of Deuterono So doth it also the place of Esay quoted in the margent of the Admonition which answer if it will not satisfy you then do I further referre you to that which I haue also before alleadged out of M. Caluine writing vpon the. 23. of Exod. verse 24. But thys place of Esay and suche lyke are vnaptly alleadged agaynste the apparell nowe vsed being nothing of that nature that those thinges be whereof the Prophete in that place speaketh You say if our coapes and surplices c. should haue suche a purgation by fyr c. I pray you where reade you of any such purgation by fire of those metalls before they were admitted into the Lords treasure house And what purgation by fire coulde there be of the wood or of the oxe before they were vsed in the sacrifice and s ruice of the Lorde There is no such purging of the things taken in Iericho mentioned in that Chapter but the Iosu. 6. ver 24 contrary for thus it is written After they burnt the citie with fire and all that was therein only the siluer and gold and the vessels of brasse and iron they put into the treasure house of the Lorde and in the place before where Iosua is commaunded to reserue these things there is no commaundement of any such purging As your common answer is this that such things haue profitable vses and therfore may be reteyned though they were consecrated to Idols which is but a shift of your owne without any ground so I say that these vestures haue a decent and comely vse and be referred to order and therefore may be reteyned likewise although they were vsed in Idolatrie And if you shal answer and say that ther may be other things vsed mo t comely and decently then I reply that so there may be places as commodious as these Churches golde siluer wood c. as good and as profitable as that And if you obiect that they be not comely and decent then I say vnto you that it is your part and the part of all those that be obedient to submitte your selues to the iudgement of those that be in authoritie except they commaund such things as be contrary to the commaundement of God Chap. 7. the. 2. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Fol. 238. Sect. 2. 3. No man 〈◊〉 defile the nature form of things To be short no Deuill no Idoll no Pope can so defile the nature or forme not being contrary to the scriptures of any of Gods creatures that the libertie of a Christian man shuld be taken away in vsing and not vsing them Bucer And I say againe with M. Bucer that for any thing to be a note of Antichrist is not in the nature of any creature in itselfe for to that end nothing vvas made of God but it hangeth altogyther of consenting to Antichristes religion and the professing thereof The vvhiche consente and profession being changed into the consente and profession of Christianitie there can sticke in the thinges themselues no note or marke of Antichristes religion The vse of bells vvas a marke of Antichristianitie in our Churches vvhen the people by them vvere called to Masses and vvhen they vvere roong against tempests novv they are a token of Cstristianitie vvhen the people by them are gathered togyther to the Gospell of Christ and other holy actions c. T. C. Page 57. Sect. vlt. To be short saith M. Doctor when he reciteth me almost a whole side word for word as he hath cited before where he hath had his answer Io. Whitgifte Surely this iesting spirite was neuer in any of the Apostles or Martyrs of Christes Church that I can reade but to passe it ouer M. Doctors Short is very shortly answered the cause wherof I referre to the Reader Howsoeuer you iest out the matter you haue neither answered M. Doctors to be short nor that which is translated Chap. 7. the third Diuision Admonition They serue not to edification Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 238. Sect. 3. You say also that they do not edify If you say that they do not edify Ceremonies do not edify of themselues but tend to edification of themselues you say truly for only the holy Ghost on this sort doth edify by the ministerie of the word But if you say they edifye not at all that is that they do not tend to edifying as other ceremonies and things vsed in the Church as Pulpit Church kneeling singing and such like which be appointed for order and decencie do then speake you that whiche you are not able by sound arguments to iustify Io. Whitgifte To this not one word Chap. 7. the fourth Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 238. Sect. vlt. Peter Martyr in his epistle written to M. Hooper thinketh that they do edify after a sort as other ceremonies do And so doth M. Bucer also in his epistle written to M. Alasco T. C. Pag. 57. Sect. vlt. After this he setteth himselfe to proue that they do edify and that firste by M. Bucers and M. Martyrs authoritie and yet in their words before alleadged there is not a word of edifying If he gather it of their words the answer is already made Io. Whitgifte I tell you it is in their epistles not in their words before alleadged M. Bucers worde Bucer be these Now if any Church iudge and haue experience such as I doubt not there are many at these days in Germany that the vse of such vesture bringeth some commendation to the holy
rest to supplie that place and office which now the Archbishop hath Chap. 3. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 2. And if any can shew me one man in these tymes of whom we may be assured that he will pronounce The Archbishop hath 〈◊〉 to thanke you for your gentlenesse the truth of euery question which shall arise he shall make me somwhat more fauorable to the Archbishop than presently I am For although there were found one such as could not erre yet I could not consent that the matter shoulde lie only vpon his hande seeing that the Apostles which could not erre in these matters would not take that vpon them seeing that by that meanes the iudgement of the Church should be contemned and further for that the iudgement of one man in a controuersie is not so strong to pull vp errors that are rooted in mens minds as the iudgement and consent of many For that the iudgement of many is very apt either to confirme a truth or to confute falsehoode it is euident that S. Paule doth holde forth as it were a buckler agaynst the frowardnesse of certaine the authoritie of the Church Io. Whitgifte You take great paynes in fighting without an aduersarie and bicause otherwise as it should séeme you lacke matter to lengthen your booke therfore you deuise matter of your owne to striue agaynst For who hath affirmed that which you so earnestly séeke in this place to ouerthrowe It hath bene tolde twise alreadie that neyther of our Archbishops taketh vpon him to compounde controuersies in doctrine by himselfe alone neyther is it their office so to doe The Archbishops authoritie in this The authoritie of Archbishops in our Church Church is to prouide by lawfull and ordinarie meanes that vnitie be obserued in the Church that contentions and schismes be cut off that the religion and orders of the Church by the whole consent of the Church agréed vpon be mainteyned that euery Bishop in his prouince doe his duetie according to the same this is his principall charge as I take it agaynst the which you haue not as yet spoken any thing but deuise with your selfe to improue that which no man affirmeth this is but verie shifting and dallying Chap. 3. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 3. Furthermore if this distinction came vp in the Apostles tyme and by them how commeth it to passe that they neuer mention it nay how commeth it to passe that euen S. Paule in that very Epistle where these voyces are founde I holde of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas whiche are 1. Cor. 14. sayde to be the cause of the Archbishop ordeyneth a cleane contrarie to this that M. doctor commendeth (a) A place farre se ched to improue the office of the Archbishop For when two or three Prophets haue expounded the scriptures he appoynteth that all the rest that are there should iudge whether they haue done well or no. Io. Whitgifte I contend not that the name of the Archbishop was in the Apostles tyme but you haue not yet proued that the office was not then or that there was then no superioritie among the Cleargie which you notwithstanding denie Your negatiue reason proueth nothing as you haue bene oftentymes tolde The place in the. 1. Cor. 14. is farre fetched it speaketh not of gournment and T. C. faulteth with the Admonition in vnapt allegations of scripture discipline or externall pollicie of the Church but of expounding the Scriptures And what a reason cal you this S. Paule saith 1. Cor. 14. Prophet duo aut tres loquantur caete i dijudicent Let two or three Prophets speake and let the other iudge Ergo he speaketh agaynst an Archbishop Surely if the Authours of the Admonition had not bene detected of their vnskilfull allegations of Scriptures I shoulde haue had as much a doe with you in that poynt for euen of these fewe which you haue vsed there is not almost one rightly and truely applied S. Paule in that place to the Corinthians sheweth that the hearers must iudge of the doctrine of the Prophets whether it be according to the worde of God or no as those did whiche are commended in the. 17. of the Actes but what is this to an Archbishop Chap. 3. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And howe commeth it to passe that S. Paule being at Rome in prison and looking euery day when he shuld giue vp his last breath cōmended vnto the Church a perfect an absolute ministerie Ephe. 4. Howe oft hath this beene repeated standing of fiue partes wherein he maketh mention not one worde of an Archbishop and sayeth further that that ministerie is able to enterteyne the perfect vnitie and knitting togither of the Church Do not all these things speake or rather crie that there was not so much as a step of an Archbishop in the Apostles times Io. Whitgifte How oft haue you alledged this place to y e same purpose If I should do the like you The place Eph. 4. no per ect pater would bestow one whole side in iesting at it But I answere you as I did before In this place the Apostle as you confesse reciteth offices that be but temporall as Apostle Prophet c. he leaueth out those offices which you say are perpetuall as Deacon and Senior Therefore it is no such perfect patterne as you would haue it And if you say that these offices are conteyned vnder the names of Pastors and Doctors then I say that Bishops and Archbishops be so in like maner If you will haue the Apostle to speake of these ministeries onely which are occupied in the worde and sacraments then I say vnto you that an Archbishop is a name of Iurisdiction and gouernment Archbishop a name of iurisdiction not of a new ministerie committed to a Bishop Pastor or Minister of the worde as necessarie for the good gouernment of the Church but not as any new ministerie as you vntruly both now and also before haue surmised But to let all this passe in those offices whiche S. Paule here reciteth is the office of an Archbishop conteyned though it be not named and namely vnder the Apostles and Pastors as I haue before shewed Chap. 3. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And if you will say that the Apostles did ordeyne Archbishops as you haue indeed sayd and do now againe when as there is not one worde in the writings of them I pray you tell vs howe we shall hold out of the Church the vnwritten verities of the Papists For my part if it be true that you say I cannot tell what to answere vnto them For our answere is to them the Apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the Church written and therefore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet bicause they are superfluous and more than need Now this degree of Archbishop being not only
neyther can you declared before out of the Scriptures h we vayne a disrinction it is and it appeareth out of Cyprian that as all the Bishops were equall one to another so he sayth that to euerie one was giuen a portion of the Lords flock not only to feed with the worde and sacraments but to rule and gouerne not as they which shal make any accompt vnto an archbishop or be iudged of him but as they which can not be iudged of any but of God And Ierome vpon Cituz sayth that the elder or minister (c) But you con 〈◊〉 that which foloweth did gouerne and rule in common with the Bishops the Churche wherof he was elder or minister Io. Whitgifte The distinetion quoad ministerium quoad ordinem tustisyed Caluine Beza Lib. con cap. 7 art 12. The distinction is good and true allowed of the best writers though the Papists wrongfully applie it M. Caluin vpon the 2. Cor. 10. hath the same distinction Quamuis sayth he commune sit omnibus verbi ministris idemque officium sunt tamen honoris gradus Although there is one office cōmon to al the ministers of the word yet are there degrees of ho nour M. Beza likewyse lib. conf cap. 7. saith thus that pastors in proces of time wer distinct into Metropolitanes Bishops and those we now call curates it was not in therespect of the ministerie of the worde but rather in respecte of iurisdiction and discipline Therefore concerning the office of preaching the vvorde and administrating the Sacramentes there is no difference betwixt Archbishops Bishops and curates c. The same distinction doth Hemingius vse in his Enchiridion 〈◊〉 the. 72. 〈◊〉 of this chapter as shall be seene hereafter What say you now is this a starting hole or rather a true distinction allowed by such as are far frō Papistrie except you wil accuse M Caluine and Beza for Papists You are not able to improue this distinction with all the learning you boast of and bitternesse of words will not carie away the matter You haue declared nothing tending to the improuing of this distinction the wordes both of Cyprian and of Hicrom do manifestly confirme it for they both would haue one chief among the ministers to gouerne the rest as it is said before You deale corruptly in reciting Hieroms words for you haue left out his purpose and meaning I wil set them down as they be in déed Idē est ergo presbyter c. VVherfore the minister Heir ad Tit. 1. and bishop are al one and before that through the instinct of the deuil there were diuisions in religion and that it was sayd among the people I hold of Paule I of Apollo and I of Cephas the churches were ruled in cōmon by the coūcell of the ministers But after that euery one accompted those whom he baptized to be his and not Christes it was decreed thorowout the whole world that one being chosen from amōg the ministers should be placed ouer the rest to whom the whole care of the church should appertein and the seedes of schismes be taken away Wil you not leaue off to deale thus guilefully with your Reader haue you no care to deale plainly and simply Ierome in that place verifieth this distinctiō and she weth that it was for order policie that among the ministers there was one bishop apointed ad quē omnia ecclesiae cura pertineret schismatū semina tollerētur And what can be spoken more directly to the purpose But one thing here I note that you wold be controlled of none but of God that is you would be exempted from all authoritie of man euen as the Pope himselfe is Chap. 3. the. 43. Diuision Answere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Lin. 4. And therfore wel saith M. Caluin in his Institutions cap 8. that the Caluine alloweth superioritie twelue Apostles had one among them to gouerne the rest it was no maruel sor nature requireth it and the disposition of man wilso haue it that in euery companie although they be al equal in power yet that there be one as gouernour by whom the rest may be directed there is no Courte without a Consul no Senate without a Pretor no Colledge without a Presidente no societie vvithout a maister Haec Caluin T. C. Page 84. Sect. 3. After foloweth M. Caluin a great patron forsoth of the Archbishop or of this kinde of bishop which is vsed amongst vs here in England And here to passe ouer your strange citations quota tions which you make to put your answerer to pain sending him sometimes to Musculus common places for one sentence to Augustins works to Chrysostoms works to Cyril to M. Foxe here sending him to y e. 8. chapter of y e Institutiōs (*) as though you had neuer red Caluins institutions but tooke she sentence of some body else withoute any examination whereby it seemeth that you were loth that euer any man should answer your booke letting I say al this passe what maketh this eyther to prone that there should be one Archbyshop ouer all the ministers in the prouince or one Byshop ouer all in the diocesse that amongst twelue that were gathered togyther into one place there was one which ruled the action for which they mette Io. Whitgifte A practis wor thy the noting This is to be obserned throughout your whole booke as I haue noted in other places that when any authoritie is alleadged that pincheth you then you fall to cauilling by and by I haue no where referred you to Iustinians code to Gratians decrees to Augustines works to diuers councels to Theodorete to the centuries c. Without noting eyther booke Chapter distinction number Canon or such like as you vsually deale with me and yet these be farre more tedious to reade ouer than is the. 8. Chap. of Caluines Institutions I do not remember that I referred you to Augustine Chrysostome or any other writers for any matter in controuersie Cyrill Museulus and M. Foxe onely in one place excepted but I quoted the places as particularly as I coule And why will you then so vntruly report of me vndoubtedly I neuer red a booke for the quantitie of it so pestered with slanderous reportes false accusations and contentious deriding speaches as this your booke is But let it go Diuers editions of Caluines institutions This booke of institutions which is distinguished into Chapters and not into bookes I red and noted thorough before you as it shoulde seeme knew whether there were any such booke or no and bycause I haue laboured in it noted it and am well acquainted with it therefore I vse it and follow it and so will I do still Neyther are you ignorant I am sure that there be sundry editions of those institutions although you séeme to dissemble the matter in this place I mighte say of purpose for you haue answered after your manner places before out of the
as I thinke speaketh But nowe to my Lorde of Sarisburie his argument whiche is this that from The Bishops argument the whiche somewhat muste be taken and vnto the whiche somewhat muste be added is no perfect patterne but Apostles Euangelistes Prophets are taken away from the fourth to the Ephesians and Deacons Elders as you your selfe say must be added Ergo it is no perfect patterne neyther do you neyther can you answere this argument But I will come to your accustomed shiftes Chap. 4. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. Afterwarde he sayth that neyther Bishop nor Elder are reckoned in that place The pastor is there reckoned vp and I haue shewed that the pastor and Bishop are all one and are but dyuers names to signifie one thing And as for those Elders whyche doe onely gouerne they are made mention of in other places and therefore the Bishop and Elder are there conteyned whych thing also M. Doctor graunteth Io. Whitgifte If the Bishop be conteyned vnder the Pastor why may not the Archbishop be so likewise but if the Elders which you say do only gouerne be not there conteyned and yet a necessarie function in the Church as you thinke howe can it then be a perfecte platforme or why may not Archbishops Archdeacons be also necessarie thoughe they be not in that place named but you say that those Elders be in other places mentioned That is no answere to this place but a reason rather to proue it no perfect patterne M. Doctor graunteth a Bishop to be conteyned vnder the name of a pastor But he doth not graunt that your Elder is so or euery Presbyter to whome the ministerie of the worde of God and sacraments is committed to be a Pastor Chap. 4. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Page 91. Sect. 3. After that he sayth there is no Catechista if there be a pastor there is one which bothe can and ought to instruct the youth neyther (*) What say you to the Doctor dothe it perteyne to any other in the church and publikely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion than vnto the pastor howsoeuer in some tymes and places they haue made a seuerall offyce of it Io. Whitgifte If a pastor and a Catechiste maye be in one why may not a Bishop and a gouernour Catechist and pastor distinguished also be one and so your Elders shut out of the doores But you may learne in auncient writers that the office of a Catechiste was necessarie in the Churche and distincte from the Pastor Origene was a Catechist in the Churche of Alexandria as Eusebius in his sixte booke dothe in sundrie places declare and yet he was not then a Pastor Chap. 4. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 1. And where he sayth that there is neyther Deacon nor Reader mentioned for the Deacon I haue answered that S. Paule speaketh there onely of those functions which are occupied both in teaching and gouerning the Churches and therefore there was no place there to speake of a Deacon and as for the Reader it is no suche office in the Churche whiche the minister maye not doe (*) Where haue you scri ture for this geare And if eyther he haue not leasure or hys strength and voyce wyll not serue hym fyrst to reade some long tyme and afterwarde to preache it is an easy matter to appoynt some of the Elders or Deacons or some other graue man in the Church to that purpose as it hath beene practised in the Churches in tymes past is in the Churches reformed in our dayes without making any newe order or offyce of the ministerie Io. Whitgifte This distinction helpeth not héere for if you saye the offices or names of Deacons be lefte out in this place bicause Sainct Paule speaketh not of suche offices as be occupied onely in gouernment first I answere that the same maye be sayde of Archebisho s and Archedeacons who haue those names onely in the respecte of gouernment Secondly I tell you that the office of a Deacon is also to preache as is Tract 14. hereafter proued And last of all that the office of a Deacon especially as you restrayne it is neyther office nor name of gouernment but of simple and absolute ministerie and seruice Your starting holes will not hyde you and this argument of the Bishop will not he answered You haue sayde nothing to proue this place to be a perfecte paterne of all ecclesiasticall functions neyther doe you saye any thing for omitting the names of Bishop Deacon Presbyter c. but we may saye the same for the names of Archebishop Archedeacon c. The Reader hath béene counted a necessarie office in the Churche and is of great antiquitie and I knowe that the Deacon or any other graue person vpon occasion maye be admitted to reade But I pray you where do you finde any such thing in the scripture T. C. taketh greater libertie to himselfe than he will allowe to whole churches especially of those whiche you call Elders which be in no degrée of the ministerie for it is great presumption for you to appoynt any suche office in the Churche not hauing your warrant in Gods worde séeing you finde suche faulte with whole Churches for allowing offices vsed in the best time of the Churche confirmed by the best Councels and approued by all auncient writers bicause their names be not expressed in the scripture and séeing also that you your selfe a little before sayde that onely the pastor ought publikely in the Churche to teache the youth and not a Catechist and I take publyke reading in the Churche to be as solemne a matter as Catechising the youthe But you haue libertie to coyne what order you lyste without eyther Scripture or anye other approued wryter we muste make you another Pythagoras In times past it was a peculiar office and he that had it was called Lector and therefore you can not saye as it hathe beene practised in times past excepte you wyll confesse that name and office of Lector and so also graunte some name and office profitable for the Churche to be omitted in the fourthe Chapter to the Ephesians Chap. 4. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Page 92. Sect. 1. 2. Where he sayth that by this reason we should haue no Churches pulpits scholes nor vniuersities it is first easily answered that S. Paule speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians of all thinges necessarie for the Church but only of all necessarie ecclesiasticall functions which do both teache and gouerne in the Churche and then I haue already shewed that there were both Churches and pulpits As for scholes and Uniuersities it is sufficient (*) I graunt but not out of the. 4. to the Ephe. commaundement of them in that it is commanded that both the Magistrates and pastours should be learned for he that commaundeth that they should be learned commaundeth those things those meanes wherby they
Priests and euites And I maruell that you wil denie this especially seing that you would de vs to the ciu ll law of Moses wherof this is a portion You adde that by all these princes ouer euerye tribe and fainilie as by the prince of the whole land God did as it were c. all this maketh nothing against our 〈◊〉 xcept y u will also take away the Prince of the whole land ▪ As this order among the Iewes was obserued in al tribes so is it now in al Prouinces and Diocesse This is but slender 〈◊〉 ou bring and y t not to the purpose for the A swere speaketh of na es and you driue it to offices Indeede you almost in no place reason ad Idem which is a maniiest argumente that you are but a shiftyng cauiller Chap. 4. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Line 13. Moreouer these orders and pollicies touching the distribution of the offices of the Leuites and priests and touching the appoin ment of their gouernours were done of Dauid by the * aduise 2. Chro. 19. of the Prophets Gad and Nathan which receiued of the Lord by commaundement that whyche they deliuered vnto Dauid And if so be that it can be shewed that Archbishops and Archdeacons came into the church by any commaundement of the Lord then this allegation hath some force but now being not only not 〈◊〉 but also as I haue shewed forbydden euery man doth see that this reason hath no place but serueth to the vtter ouerthrow of the Archbyshop and Archdeacon For if Dauid beyng suche a notable personage and as it were an Angell of God durste not take vpon him to bring into the Church any orders or pollicies not onely not againste the worde of God but not without a precise word and commaundement of God who shal dare be so bold as to take vpon him the institution of the chiefe office of the Church and to alter the pollicie that God hath appointed by his seruantes the Apostles Io. Whitgifte You runne away with the matter as though all were cleare when as it is not so You affirme y t Dauid did apoint these orders pollicies touching y e distribution of the offices of the leuites Priests c. by the eduise of Gad and Nathan the prophets of God And for proof hereof you quote in the margent 2. Chron. 19. where there is not one word for your purpose or signifying any suche thing In déed in the 2. chro 29. there is affirmed the lyke thing But my L. of Sarisburie hath answered you that such negatiue reasons are very weake And if you wil denie it to be a negatiue reason from authoritie yet can you not denie but that it is as féeble an argument as almost can be For what if Dauid did appoynt these orders touching the distribution of the offices of the leuites priests c. doth it therfore follow that the church at no tyme may appointe suche offices as shall be thought méete for the gouernment of it according to the tyme places and persons where haue you learned of a singular example to make a generall rule or to frame an argumente ex solis particularibus In the. 2. Chro. 19. which you haue quoted in the margent there is a not able place Scripture alleaged against himselfe against you for there expresse mention is made that Iehosaphat set in Ierusalem of the Leuites and of the Priests c. for the iudgemente and cause of the Lorde and made Amariah the Priest chiefe ouer them neyther were they Iudges for the citie 2. Chron. 19. of Ierusalem onely but for the whole countrey And yet we reade not of any commaundement vers 8. that Iehosaphat had so to do Chap. 4. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93 Sect. 1. And where the Bishop sayth it is knowne and confessed that ther wanted many things to the persection of the Churche of the Iewes truly I doe not knowe nor can not consesse that that Churche wanted (*) This is directly contrary to your selfe any thing to the perfection of that estate which the Lord would haue them be in vntill the comming of our sauioure Christ. And if there were any thing wanting it was not for wante of good lawes and pollicies whereof the question is but for wante of due execution of them which we speake not of Io. Whitgifte Conueniet nulli c. Nowe can he agrée with anye other man that dothe not agree with him selfe For before after you haue recyted diuers thinges lefte to the T. C. contrarie to himself order of that Churche of the Iewes for the whiche they had no expresse worde You saye that you wyll offer for one that I bring that we haue lefte to the order of the Pag. 22. Sec. 2. Churche to shewe that they had twenty whyche were vndecided by the expresse word of God And heere you saye that it wanted nothing to the perfection of that estate how you wyll reconcile your selfe I knowe not or whether it be your pleasure not to respecte your owne credite so that you may séeme to discredite that whyche that notable Byshop hathe spoken but that whyche I haue alleadged of Iehosaphat 2. Chro. 19. dothe manifestly iustifye my Lord of Sarisburies saying and condemneth youres For there it is to be séene that in matters of gouernment orders were appoynted which neyther were commaunded by any expresse commaundemente of God neyther yet expressed in the worde of God But of thys matter I haue spoken before Chap. 4 the. 14. Diuision The third Reason VVhere the substance of anything is most perfite there the accidents be most perfite but Tertia ratio the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 Religion was most perfit in the primitiue Churche and yet there was then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo. The Ansvvere of the Byshop First this 〈◊〉 is not proued for it may vvell be doubted vvhether the Eius solutio ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 substance hath euermore most porfit accidentes And againe the substance of Religion is the same novve that it vvas then the difference if there be any standeth in accidentes and not in substance Therefore thys 〈◊〉 of substance and accidentes vvas not needefull In the primitiue Church God raised vp Apostles and Prophets and gaue them povver ex as the gifte of tongues the gift of healing the gifte of gouernment c. In place vvher of he hath novv giuen Vniuersities Scholes Byshops 〈◊〉 shops c. But you say there vvas then no Archbyshop So may you say that before king Saul there vvas no king in Israel So may you say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of late times there vvas neither Duke nor Earle in England So may you say 〈◊〉 the primitiue Church there was neither Deane nor person 〈◊〉 prebendarie And yet novv both in Ecclesiasticall and ciuill go 〈◊〉 these are thought necessarie Last of all vvhere you say there was no And by shop in the primitiue Church it is vvritten by many that S. Paul
and naught so do you as naughtily 〈◊〉 it Is there no way for the prodigall man to come to liberalitie but by 〈◊〉 no way for the glutton to come to temperance but by pyning himselfe no way for t e 〈◊〉 person to come to the true feare and loue of God but by des eration 〈◊〉 way to come rom poperie to the Gospell but by confusion and 〈◊〉 of all good ord r and gouernment Is this diuinitie In déede uch 〈◊〉 it is that Aristotle a prophane Philosopher doth teach in his Ethikes but not that Chris and his 〈◊〉 do teach in the Gospell The ordinarie meanes whereby a Christian man must come from vice to vert e The ordinarie meanes to draw men from 〈◊〉 from an e treme to a meane is the diligent reading and hearing o the word of God ioyned with earnest and heartie prayers The best way therefore to bring a dronken man to sobrietie is not to perswade him to a superstitious kind of abstinence or fasting but to lay before him out of the word of God the horriblenes of that sinne and the punishment due vnto the same The similitude of a croked sticke is a t to set foorth so croked a precept but not so apt to make manifest the way vnto vertue But I may not blame you for vsing and allowing those prophane rules whiche you so aptly follow and so commonly practise in all your doings Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 1. 2. This wisedome of not conforming it selfe vnto the ceremonies of the Idolaters in things indifferent hath the Church followed in times passed Tertullian sayth O sayth he better is the religion of the heathen for they vse no solemnitie of the Christians ▪ neyther the Lords day neyther the Pentecost and if they knew them they woulde Lib. de Ido latria haue nothing to do with them for they would be afrayd least they shoulde seeme Christians but we are not afraid to be called heathen Io. Whitgifte Tertullian in that place speaketh against such Christians as celebrated the feasts of the Gentiles togither with them remayning in their wicked abuse as it appeareth in the words that go before which are as followeth Nobis quibus sabbata extranea Lib. de Idolatria sunt neomenia feriae aliquādo a Deo dilectae Saturnalia lanuariae Brumae Matro ales frequentantur munera commeant strenae consonant lusus conuiuia constrepunt O melior fides nationum in suam sectam c. The feasts of Saturne of Ianus of Bacchus and of Iuno are frequented of vs vnto whome the sabbats new mones and holydays sometimes beloued of God are straunge gifts and presents are very ri e sportes and banquets keepe a sturre O better is the faith of the Gentiles in their sect c. Wherefore this saying of Tertullian may aptly be alledged against those that frequent the popish solemnities togither with them come to their Churches communicate with them in worshipping their idols and yet professe the knowledge of the Gospell but it can by no meanes be drawen vnto such as withdrawing themselues from suche kind of communicating with them do in their seuerall Churches vse those good things well which the Papists haue abused as the scripture the sacraments prayers and suche like Wherefore you do not well to alledge Tertullians words omitting the circumstances which declare his meaning A man being pr sent at Idolatrous seruice must néedes giue great suspition that he is an Idolater and therfore no man ought to be present at it which in heart condemneth it But as there is no honest and godly man which can call our seruice Idolatrous or Papisticall so is ther none that can suspect vs to be Idolaters or Papists The whole world knowing that both our practise and profession is to the contrary Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 3. Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 17. Constantine the Emperoure speaking of the keeping of the feast of Easter saythe that it is an vnworthy thing to haue any thing common with that most spitefull companie of the Iewes And a little a ter he saith that it is most absurd and against reason that the Iewes shou de vaunt and glory that the Christians could not keepe those things without their doc rine And in another Socrat. li. cap. 9. place it is sayd after this sort It is conuement so to order the matter that we haue nothing common with that nation Io. Whitgifte Constantine speaketh of the feast of Easter which he would not haue obserued according to the manner of the Iewes and yet you know that the Churches in Asia following the examples of Philip and Iohn the Apostles and of Polycarpus and many other godly men did celebrate that feast togyther with the Iewes as it is to be seene in the fifth booke o Eusebius eccle history Wherfore the matter was not of so great Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 23. 24. 25. 26. importance before it was for quietnesse sake determined by the Churche neyther doth Constantine in eyther of the places meane that we should haue nothing common with the Iewes but only that we should haue no suche thinges common with them as are repugnant to Christian libertie or to the truth of the Gospell or such as may cō rme them in their obstinacie and error For if his meaning had bin generally and simply then mighte he haue vtterly abrogated the feast of Easter being no commaundement sor it in the new testament As therefore Cōstantine thought that the Churche had not the feast of Easter common with the Iewes not bycause the thing it selfe was abrogated but the ay altered Euen so the Churche of Englande cannot be said to haue any thing common with the P pisticall Church though it reteine something vsed in the same bycause the manner is changed and certayne circumstances altered or whereas before it was in a straunge tongue nowe it is in a tongue knowne and whereas it was before abused and mixt with superstition now it is rightly vsed and purged from all corruption And therefore although the thing remaine yet bycause the circumstances be altered it is not the same no more than our Sabbat is the Iewes Sabbat and our Easter the Iewes Easter Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 4. 5. 6. The Councels although they did not obserue themselues always in making of decrees thys rule yet haue kept this consideration continually in making their lawes that they woulde haue the Christians differ from others in their ceremonies The Co ncell of Laodicea which was afterward confirmed by the sixt generall Councell decreed Tom. 1. con Lao. can 38 that the Christians should not take vnleauened bread of the Iewes or communicate with their 〈◊〉 Also it was decreed in another Councell that they shoulde not decke their houses with bay 2. To. Braccar can 7 leaues and greene boughes because the Paganes did vse so
to celebrate the Lordes Supper And if it did the dignitie of the Sacramentes do not depende vpon the man be he minister or not minister be he good or euill Lette euery one take heede that they doe not vsurpe that authoritie wherevnto they be not called T. C. P ag 113. Sect. 1. 2. 3. He hath certayne other (*) Vntruth for I vse no reasons to that end to proue that women may baptize whereof the first is in the. 93. page and that is that Sephora Moses wife circumcised hir child wherevnto I haue answered partly before that particular examples especially contrary to generall rules are not to be followed and will further answer if I first admonish the Reader wherevpon this baptisme of midwiues and in priuate houses rose that when we know of how rotten a stocke it came the frute it selfe may be more lothsome vnto vs. It first therefore rose vpō a false interpretation of the place of S. Iohn V nlesse a man be borne againe of vvater and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdome of heauen 3. Iohn Where certayne do interprete the word water for the materiall and elementall water wherewith men are washed when as our sauioure Christ taketh water there by a translation or borrowed speach for the spirit of God the effect whereof it shadoweth out For euen as in another place by the fire and spirit he meaneth nothing but the spirit of God which purgeth and purifyeth as the 3. Math. fire doth so in this place by the water and the spirit he meaneth nothing else but the spirit of God which clenseth the filth of sinne and cooleth the broyling heate of an vnquiet conscience as water washeth the thing which is foule and quencheth the heate of the fire Secondarily this erroure came by a false and vnnecessary conclusion drawen of that place For although the scripture should say that none can be saued but those which haue the spirit of God and are baptised with materiall and elementall water yet ought it to be vnderstanded of those whiche can conueniently and orderly be brought to baptisme as the Scripture saying that who so doth not beleeue the gospell is Iohn 3. already condemned meaneth this sentence of those which can heare the gospell and haue discretion to vnderstand it when they heare it and cannot here shut vnder this condemnation eyther those that be borne deafe and so remayne or little infants or naturall fooles that haue no witte to conceiue what is preached And herevpon S. Augustine concludeth that all not baptized are condemned which is as absurdly 106. Epist. ad Bonifac. in lib. de meritis remissi pec cat 1. ca. 4 concluded of him as that of our sauioure Christes words excepte one eate the flesh of the sonne of man he hath not life he concludeth that whatsoeuer he be whiche receyueth not the Sacrament of the Supper is damned Upon this false conclusion of S. Augustine hath risen this prophanation of the sacramente of baptisme in being ministred in priuate houses and by women or lay men as also vpon his other absurd conclusion sprong a horrible abuse of the Lords supper whilest they did thrust the bread and wine into yong infantes mouthes for that menne were perswaded that otherwise if their children should die before they were baptised or had receyued the supper that they were damned for euer And what better token can there be that this was the cause of this blind baptisme than that the Papistes from whome this baptisme by women is translated were of the same iudgement and for that cause brought in their baptisme by women Herevnto may be added another cause which is that as when the Churche began not only to decline but to fall away from the sinceritie of religion it borrowed a number of other prophanations of the heathen so also it borrowed this For as the heathen had women priests so it would haue also hir women priests and Li. 3. ca. 9. that this was another occasion of bringing in the baptisme by women it appeareth by your Clement if he can speake any truth Io. Whitgifte It is vntrue that I vse any reasons at all to proue that women may baptise onely I bring this and such like examples to improue this generall assertion of the Admonition that then sacraments were ministrred by ministers only and not by midwiues or deacons For Deacōs then did baptise and Moses wife long before that time did circumcise I know that particular examples make no general rules but you are not ignorant that Particular examples may sometimes be followed particular examples may in the like cases and circumstances be followed when ther is no rule to the contrary The place in the. 3. of Iohn by you alleadged hath diuers interpretations and the most part of the auncient writers do take water in that place for materiall and elementall water as Augustine Chrisostome Ambrose Cyrill and sundry others euen as Chr. in 3. Io. 3. lib. de spirit sanct lib. 2. de Abrabam patriar Cyri. in 3. Io. many of the auncient fathers as I haue red vpon that text But bycause I do mislike as much as you the opinion of those that thinke infants to be condemned which are not baptized therefore I will not contend with you eyther in the interpretation of that place or in anye other thing that you haue spoken touching this erroure onely this I saye that you must take héede least in auoiding an errour you fall into an heresie and giue place to Anabaptistes in not baptising infants And I knowe not what you can saye agaynste priuate baptisme in that case of necessitie whyche they doe not in lyke manner alleadge agaynste the baptising of yong Infantes Master Caluine in his Introduction Aduersus Anabap. though he allowe not this errour which condemneth chyldren not baptized yet doth he approue and allowe the necessitie of baptizing infantes His woordes be these But some man will say that the grace of God towardes vs is not diminished Caluine uers 〈◊〉 if infantes be not admitted to Baptisme so that it be not denied that God is as mercifull vnto them as vnto the children of the Iewes but I will shewe that it is much diminished for we muste esteeme the grace of God especially by the declaration thereof which he maketh both by his worde and Sacramentes Seyng therefore Baptisme is nowe ordeyned that the promise of saluation may be sealed in our bodies as it was in tymes past in the people of the Iewes Christians should be depriued of a singular consolation if theyr children shoulde be secluded from this confirmation which all the faythfull haue at all tymes enioyed that they should haue the visible signe whereby the Lorde doth shewe and witnesse that he receyueth their children into the Communion and fellowship of the Churche If the Authours of the Admonition say truly that Victor who liued Anno. 198. did firste appoynt that women might Baptise
as it hath done from time to time S. August in his epistle Augustine ad Ian. in y e place before of me recited saithe that the passion of Christe his resurrectiō his ascētion the day of the cōming of the holy ghost which we cōmonly call Whitsontide is celebrated not by any cōmaundement written but by the determination of the church And it is the iudgement of al learned writers that the church hath authoritie in these things so that nothing be done against the word of God But of this I haue spoken partly before and intende to speake more largely thereof in the place folowing where you agayn make mention of it Admonition In this booke days are ascribed vnto saincts kept holie with fastes on their euens prescript seruice appointed for them which beside that they are of many superstitiously kepte and obserued and also contrarie to the commaundement (z) Exo. 20. 9. Exo. 3. 12. Deu. 5. 13. Esa. 1. 10. 13 14. Leuit. 23. 3. 2. Esd. 1. 13. Rom. 14. 6 Ga. 4. 10. 11 of God Six days thou shalt labour and therfore we for the superstition that is put in them dare not subscribe to allow them Answer to the Admo pag 173. sect 2. pa. 174. 175. pa. 176. sect 1. 2. Your collection hāgeth not together for how foloweth this these holidays be superstitiously obserued of some therfore you may not allow thē why should other mēs superstition hinder you from lawfully vsing a lawful thing The saboth day is superstitiously vsed of some Abuse of thin ges doth not condemne the things so is y e church so is y e crede the Lords praier many things else and yet I hope you wil subscribe to thē You heap vp a nūber of places in the margent to proue y t which no mā doubteth of y t is this portion of the comandemēt Six days shalt thou labour c. the meaning of which words is this that seing God hath permitted vnto vs six days to do our own works in we ought the seuenth day wholly to serue him Euery mā hath not bodily labour to do but may serue God aswell in these six dayes as in the seuenth And certainly he doth not by any meanes breake this cōmaundement which absteineth in any of these six days from bodily labour to serue god ▪ For this is the cōmandemēt Remember that thou kepe holy the Sabboth day as for this Six days thou shalt work is no cōmandement but tendeth rather to the constitution of the Saboth thā to the prohibiting of rest in any other day appointed to the seruice of God And it is asmuch as if he should say Sixe days thou mayst worke so do some translate the Hebrewe worde The place alleaged out of the first of Esay is far from the purpose ther is not one word there spokē of any holy days dedicate to saints but only the Lord signifieth that their sacrifices feast days wer not acceptable vnto him bicause they were done in hypocrisie without Esay cōdemneth the maner of sacrificing fayth so that he reproueth modum not factum their maner of sacrificing that is their hypocriticall kynde of worshipping him In the seconde of Esdras 1. in the place by you quoted I see not one worde that may serue for your purpose the wordes you quote be these I haue led you through the sea and haue giuen you a sure way Uaine quotation since the beginning I gaue you Moses for a guide and Aaron for a Priest In the. 14. to the Ro. the apostle speaketh nothing of our holydays but of suche as were obserued among the Iewes and abrogated by the commyng of Chryste And yet in that place the Apostle exhorteth that wee whyche bee strong should not despyse them that are weake nor condemne them though they vse not the christian libertie in dayes and meates That in the fourth to the Galat. Ye obserue dayes moneths and tymes and yeares c. Sainct Augustine ad Ianuar. Episto 119. expoundeth Augustine on this sorte Eos inculpat qui dicunt non proficiscar quia posterus dies est aut quia luna sic fertur vel proficiscar vt prospera cedant quia ita se habet positio syderum non agam hoc mense commertium quia illa stella mihi agit mensem vel agam quia suscepit mensem I know there be other that do otherwise expounde that place and that truly euen as they doe also that in the. 14. to the Rom. of certain Iewish feastes as Sabboths newe Moones the feastes of Tabernacles the yeare of Iubilie and such like abrogated by the gospell and yet superstitiously obserued of some But these places cā by no means be vnderstode of the days obserued by vs called ▪ by the names of saintes dayes for they were ordeined since the writing of this epistle And that you may vnderstād the differēce betwixt the festiual days Difference betwixte the Papists holidays ours obserued of the Papists the days allowed now in this Churche it is to be considered First that their Saints days were appointed for the honoring and worshipping of the Saints by whose names they were called oures be ordeined for the honoring of God for publike prayer and edifying the people by readyng the Scriptures and preachyng 2 The Papistes in their Saincts dayes prayed vnto the Sainctes we only pray vnto God in Christes name 3 They had all things done in a strange tong without any edifying at all we haue the prayers and the Scriptures red in a tongue known which can not be without great commoditie to the hearers 4 To be shorte they in obseruing their dayes thinke they merite therby something at Gods handes We in obseruing our days are taught farre otherwyse The Church euen from the beginning hath obserued such feastes as it may appeare in good writers Pag. 179 Sect. 1. Touching fastyng on the euens of suche feastes or rather absteyning from fleshe you know it is not for religion but for policie and as I thinke the same is protested in that Act where suche kynde of absteyning is established And therfore these be but slender quarels picked to disalowe suche a booke Io. Whitgifte All this haue you ouerskipped for what cause you know best your selfe ¶ What kind of preaching is moste effectual Tract 11. The firste Diuision Admonition The fiftenth and sixtenth Then (n) 1. Pet. 5. feeding the flocke diligently nowe teachyng quarterlye then preachyng (o) 1. Tim. 4. 2. in season and out of season nowe once in a moneth is thought sufficient if twice it is iudged a worke of supererogation ▪ Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. vlt. Pag. 83. Pag. 84. Sect. 1. These be but wordes of pleasure God bee thanked there bee ministers and suche as you mislyke of whiche feede their flocks diligently and preache in tyme and out of tyme according bothe to S. Peters and S. Paules
Churche by publike authoritie established wherfore vntil you shew some particulars this shal be my answere that Spiritus Dei neque est mendax neque mordax The spirite of God is neyther a lyer nor a slaunderer It is but your pleasure thus generally to say That then pastors soughte their flocks now they seeke theirs for it is well knowne that there bee Pastours which seeke their flockes and not theirs Hitherto thanks be vnto God in al this discourse ther is not one peece of false doctrine of any substance ascribed to this Churche of England by these libellers therfore it hath as God will the fyrst note of the true church of Christ that is puritie of doctrine T. C. Pag. 124. Lin. 12. To the next section being the rest of the. 84. page I minde to say nothing hauing before spoken of the faults of the ceremonies and rites which are vsed with vs. Io. Whitgifte The Admonition saith that then nothing was taught but Gods word now Princes pleasures mens deuises popishe ceremonies and Antichristian rites in publike pulpits defended and will neyther you nor they tell vs what those Princes pleasures c. be well it is true y t followeth in that part of my Answer for there is nothing said to the cōtrary Admonition These and a greate many other abuses are in the ministerie remayning which vnlesse they be remoued and the truth broughte in not onely Gods iustice shall be poured foorthe but also Gods Church in this realme shal neuer be builded For if they which seeme to be workinē are no workmen indeede but in name or elfe worke not so diligently and in such order as the workmaster commaundeth it is not only vnlikely that the building shall go forward but altogither impossible that euer it shall be perfited The way therefore to auoid these inconueniences and to reforme these deformities is this Your wisedomes haue to remoue Aduousons Patronages Impropriatiōs and Byshops authoritie clayming to themselues thereby right to ordeyne ministers and to bring in that old and true election which was accustomed to be (q) Act. 1. 26. 6. 2. 3. 14. 13. made by the cōgregation You must displace those ignorant and vnable ministers already placed and in their roomes appoynte suche as both can and wil by Gods assistance (r) 1 ▪ Pet. 5. feede the flocke You must plucke downe and vtterly ouerthrow without hope of restitution the Court of Faculties from whence not only licences to enioy many benefices are obteyned as pluralities Trialities Totquots c. but all thinges for the most part as in the Court of Rome are set on sale licences to marrie to eate flesh in times prohibited 1. Pet. 5. 2. to lie from benefices and charges and a great number beside of such like abhominations Appoint to euery congregation a learned and diligēt preacher ▪ Remoue Homilies Articles iniunctions a prescript order of Seruice made out of the Masse booke Take away the lordship the l ytering the pompe the idlenesse liuings of byshops but yet employ them to such endes as they were in the old Church appoynted for Let a lawfull and a godly scigniorie looke that they preache not quarterly or monethly but continuallie not for filthy lucre sake but of a ready mind So God shall be glorifyed your consciences discharged and the flocke of Christe purchased (s) Acts. 20. 28 with his owne bloud edifyed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 86. 87. Sect. 1. 2. What these great abuses by you hitherto alleadged be I trust you Discipline necessary do now fully vnderstand surely except such factious libellers suche stirrers vp of schismes such disturbers of the peace of the church such contemners of those that be in authoritie be not onely remoued but repressed God will not only of his iustice punish the magistrates of this Realme for their carelesnesse in this behalfe but also Gods gospell will therein be as much defaced with factions schismes and heresies as euer it was in the Popes time with superstition and idolatrie For surely these men that would be compted such perfect builders Libellers be vnderminers ▪ not builders be but vnderminers and destroyers and instruments of some greedy guttes and lusty toysters who to maynteyne their pride and ioylitie seeke for the spoyle of the Churche and indeede the vtter ouerthrow both of learning and religion For take from Byshops their lands and their authoritie let euery Confusion parish elect their owne minister remoue Homilies Articles Iniunctions appoynt no prescript order of seruice that is to say let there be no order prescribed to any man no law to direct him or controll him but let euery minister do what he list speake what he list alter what he list and so oft as him list to be short let euery minister be King and Pope in his owne parish and exempted from all controlemente of Byshop Magistrate and Prince and you shall haue as many kinds of Religion as there is Parishes as many sects as ministers and a Church miserably torne in peeces with mutabilitie and diuersitie of opinions Do you not see what they shoote at would they not be free from al Anabaptisme feared Ambition in the Admonitors magistracie do they not most ambitiously desire that themselues whiche they condemne in other that is Lordship and superioritie For who thinke you shoulde be chiefe in euery parish and direct the rest Surely euen the minister The Pope neuer required greater authoritie ouer al Christendom than they seke to haue ouer their parish The Pope and his Clergie did neuer more earnestly seeke and desire to be exempted from the iurisdiction of ciuil magistrates than these men do both from ellesiasticall and ciuill Princes nobles and magistrates were neuer brought into greater seruitude bondage than these men seeke to lay vpon them T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 1. After a number of words without matter sayings without proofes accusations without any grounds or likelihoode of grounds as that they be instruments of greedy gutts nd lusty roysters to maynteyn them in theyr ioylitie whych notwithstanding speake ageynst Patron ges and would haue the liuings of the Church which are idlely and vnprofitably spent for the most p rt applyed to the right vses of the poore and of ministers and schollers and that they would be discharged from ciuill and ecclesiasticall subiection whiche humbly submitting themselues to the Queenes maiestie and all those that are sente of hir would deliuer the Churches and themselues for the Churches sake from the vnla ull dominion of one to the end that they might yeld themselues with their Chruches subiect to the lawfull ecclesiasticall gouernment of those which ▪ God hath appoynted in his word After I ▪ s y a number of such and like accusations mixt with most itter and reprochfull words vnto all which it is sufficient answer that ▪ Quod verbo dictu mest verbo sit negatum ▪ As easily denyed as sayd Io. Whitgifte
For proofe of all that I haue here sayde I referre my selfe to common experience and the like pract ses in other Churches by persons of much like disposition as the notes in the beginning of the second edition of my Answer to the Admonition doth more 〈◊〉 large declare What that lawfull eccles asticall gouernment of those which you say God hath appoynted in his word is ▪ and whether it verifyeth my saying or no shall be séene whē we come to that part of your Replie Certain it is that you would transferre both the authoritie of the Prince Archbyshop and Bishop to your selues and your seniors ▪ for that is the lawfull ecclesiasticall gouernment you meane And those be the persons whome you thinke God to haue appoynted in his word as it will fall out more euidētly hereafter Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 87. Sect. 2. Wherefore you that be in authoritie if you loue the peace and prosperitie An exhortation to those that be in authoritie of the Church of Christ if you desire the good successe of the Gospell if you will preserue the state of this Realme if you thinke it necessary to haue good magistrates to haue good lawes and orders in a common wealth if you esteeme learning and seeke to preferre it if you hate anarchian confusion Anabaptisme if you allowe of your owne condition ▪ and like of a kingdome better than of a popular state Then prouide betime some speedy remedy for these and suche like kind of men and if the religion you haue established be good if the orders and lawes you haue made be conuenient let them not be written against spoken against nay openly contemned and broken withoute sharpe and seuere punishment suffer not suche as execute them to be contemned hated discouraged and oftentimes frumped Lawekeepers contemned by some superiours Either let your lawes be mainteined as lawes or else deliuer vs from our dutie in executing and obeying of them T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. He turneth him self to those that be in authoritie whom he would make beleue that it standeth vpon the ouerthrow of the church of religion of order of the Realme of the state of Princes of Magistrates which are by this meanes established and whose estates are made this way most sure when as the true causes of these clamors and outcries that M. Doctor maketh is nothing else but the feare of the ouerthrow of that honoure which is to the dishonor of God and ignomune of his Church and which maketh to the good dispensing of these goodes for the ayd and helpe of the Church which now serue to oppresse it Io. Whitgifte It shall be sufficient to referre the consideration of this your answer to such as be in authoritie who can best consider of both our meanings Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 88. Sect. 1. Touching the Court of faculties I cannot say muche for I haue no great experience of it and lesse knowledge in the lawe notwithstanding The Court of faculties bycause by lawful authoritie it is allowed in this Realme I cannot but reuerently iudge of it for in such matters I thinke it a poynt of modesty to suppose the best and to absteine from cōdemning of that gouernment whiche is allowed as conuenient If there be faultes in the officers they may be corrected T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. As for the Court of faculties the corruptions thereof being so cleare that all men see them and so grosse that they which cannot see may grope them M. Doctor answereth that he knoweth not what it meaneth and therefore is moued of modesty to thinke the best of it whiche is but a simple shift For besides that that the Admonition speaketh nothing of it but that the streates and high wayes talke of if there had bin any defense for it it is not to be thought that M. Doctor woulde haue bin so negligent an aduocate as to haue omitted it seeing if he were ignorant he mighte haue had so easily and with so little cost the knowledge of it As for his modesty his bolde asseueration of things which are doubtfull which are false which are altogyther vnlikely which are impossible for him to know doth sufficiently bewray and make so well knowne that no such visard or paynting can serue to make men beleeue that meere modesty shut vp his mouth from speaking for the Court of faculties which hath opened his mouth so wide for the defense of those things wherein as it falleth out he hathe declared himselfe to haue lesse skill and vnderstanding than he hathe of that Court. Io. Whitgifte I haue spoken my cōscience of that Court neither did I cōferre with any to giue me any instructions concerning it And surely as I thought then so do I think now I haue affirmed nothing which I will not stand to except you can conuince me by better reasons than I haue heard any as yet That Court hath the original and authoritie from the Prince it is established and confirmed by Parliament it medleth nothing with that that perteyneth to the office eyther of Byshop or Pastor The principall officers be the Lord Chauncellour and the Archbyshop It maynteyneth the Quéenes prerogatiue in causes ecclesiasticall and was erected the. 25. reare of King Henry the eyght by authoritie of Parliāment to the suppressing and vtter abolishing of the Byshop of Romes iurisdiction It medleth not for any thing that I know with matters that by learning can be proued to be against the word of God and in some poynts it cannot without inconuenience be missed But this is a matter of pollicie and therefore I leaue the further consideration of it to suche as God hathe committed the gouernmente of thys realme vnto to whome it dothe especially apperteyne Of preaching before the administration of the Sacramentes Tract 12. The first Diuision Admonition Now to the second point which concerneth ministration of sacraments In the olde time the word was (t) Math. 3. 12. preach d before they were ministred now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 89. Sect. 1. 2. 3. The second external note of the true Church of Christ is ministring The second externall note of the church of the Sacraments sincerely you would proue that this Church of England hath not the Sacraments sincerely ministred first by three generall reasons perteyning to both the sacramēts then by certaine abuses which you find seuerally in either of them The first generall reason is this In olde time the worde was preached before the Sacraments were ministred now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be red To proue that the word was preached before the Sacramentes were ministred you alleadge the third of Matthew vers 12. VVhich hath his fanne in his hand and vvill make cleane his flovver and gather his vvheate into his garner but vvill burne vp the chaffe vvith vnquenchable fire I vnderstand not how you can of this place conclude that there
and the deuill and to continue Christes faythfull Souldiour and seruant vnto his lyues ende And though there be no Turkes among vs or Iewes yet is it lawfull to vse suche Christian ceremonies to put vs in minde of our dutie And notwithstanding the same might be done by other meanes yet it hath pleased the Churche to thinke this meanes also conuenient and therefore hath vsed hir libertie therein As for Papistes Difference betwene crossing in Papistrie and in our church we are farre enough off from them for they pictured the signe of the crosse and did worshippe it so doe not we they vsed it to driue away spirites and diuels so do not we they attributed power and vertue vnto it so doe not we they had it in theyr Churches so haue not we they vsed it dayly and nightly for religion sake we onely in Baptisme for a signe and token as I haue sayde before so that their abusing of it is sufficiently corrected Neyther is there any man that knoweth not to what ende and purpose we vse it Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 136. somevvhat past the middest Concerning the other reason of the profitable signification of the Crosse I haue shewed that that maketh the thing a great deale worse and bringeth in a newe worde into the Churche whereas there ought to be no Doctor heard in the Churche but onely our Sauiour Christ. For 〈◊〉 ese significations be good then the Papistes haue to answere vs that theyr Ceremonyes be ot dumbe whiche haue as likely and as glorious significations as these are and so indeede they ay that theyr ceremonyes are not dumbe ceremonies for so much as they signifie so good things ut although it be the worde of God that we shoulde not be ashamed of the Crosse of Christ t is it not the worde of God that we shoulde be kept in remembrance and obseruation of that two lynes drawne a crosse one ouer another in the childes foreheade but a fonde toy and ydle uise of mans braine Io. Whitgifte The signification of the Papisticall ceremonies was onely knowne to themselues Difference betwix 〈◊〉 sticall 〈◊〉 nies 〈◊〉 being vsed in the Church without any declaration of suche signification and therefore they might worthily be counted dumbe and vnprofitable but it is not so in this for the signification is ioyned with the signe published in a tongue knowne The Papisticall Ceremonies were in number many and they had annexed vnto them an opinion of worship and a necessitie vnto saluation c. whiche made them wicked but all these be farre from this and other Ceremonies vsed by vs and for as much as there is no worde of God agaynst it and it hath a profitable signification the Church may vse it though it be not expressed in the worde as it may doe other rites according to that that I haue proued before intreating of the authoritie of the Tract 〈◊〉 church in such matters Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision Admonition Fourthly they doe superstitiously and wickedly institute a newe Sacrament which is proper to Christ onely marking the childe in the foreheade with a Crosse in token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confesse the fayth of Christ. We haue made mention before of that wicked deuorse of the worde and Sacraments Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 192. Sect. 3. Concerning the fourth toy that is Crossing the childe in the forehead which you call wicked and superstitious I haue before declared Maister Bucers opinion It may be left and it hath beene vsed in the Primitiue Churche and maye bee so still without eyther superstition or wickednesse Neyther doth it any more make a Sacrament bycause Crossing 〈◊〉 Sacra it is in token that hereafter hee shall not bee ashamed to confesse Christ crucifyed than your sitting doth at the communion in token of rest that is a full finishing through Christ of the Ceremoniall lawe c. I thinke you knowe that euerie Ceremonie betokening something is not by and by a Sacrament and therefore here is as yet no wicked diuorse of the worde and Sacraments except it be made by you T. C. Pag. 134. Sect. vlt. In the. 192. page vnto the Admonition obiectiing that by this significafion it is made a Sacramēt M. Doctor answereth that euerte ceremonie which betokeneth something is not a Sacrament I woulde knowe what maketh a Sacrament if a doctrine annexed vnto an outward signe doth not make a Sacrament And I am sure there was no outwarde signe neyther in the olde Testament nor i the newe which hath a doctrine oyned with it which is not a Sacrament For if he will take the nature of the Sacrament so straightly as Augustine doth and that there be no Sacraments but when as to the element there cometh the word (*) A monifest 〈◊〉 the Circūeision can be no sacrament besydes that seeyng that master Doctor hath condemned the allegorie and signifycation of sytting at the Lordes supper saying that it is Papistieall I maruell what priuiledge he hath or speciall licence that he may allow that in him selfe and in his owne assertions which he sayth is vnlawfull and papisticall in others especially seeing the allegorie of the sytting was neuer vsed by the Papists but this of crossing is And if the licence of allegories be allowed I see not why Oyle may not be brought into the Sacrament as well as crossing both bicause it hath beone a Sacrament of God before and for that the signifycation thereof betokening the giftes of the holy Ghost and shadowing out the power and efficacie of those giftes caryeth as great a shewe of wisedome and Christian instruction as doth the crossing Io. Whitgifte You are not ignorant I am sure that to the making of a Sacrament besydes What is required to the making of a sacrament the externall element there is required a commaundement of God in his worde that it should be done and a promise annexed vnto it where of the Sacrament is a seale so it was in circumcision and so it is in the Supper and Baptisme And surely I maruell at this your saying If we will take the nature of the sacrament straightly Circumcision a Sacrament according to Augustines rule as Augustine doth and that there be no sacraments but where as to the element there commeth the worde the Circumcision can be no sacrament I thinke you are not well aduised for what doth Saint Augustine require in a Sacrament Doth he not requir the worde and an externall element And are not both these to bée founde in circumcision The externall element is the foreskinne it is commaunded in Genesis 17. And there is the promise annexed whereof it is a seale and a Sacrament Gen. 17. and what doth Saint Augustine requyre more in a Sacrament But I will impute this saying of yours rather to some ouersight or lacke of due consideration than to ignorance for I thinke it vnpossible that a man
person that is called to a lawful and a publike function as he did vpon Saule yet doth he not alway so God doth not of necessitie tye his graces to God bestoa weth his gifts by meanes offices for as he in the beginning of his churche miraculously bestowed his giftes so doth he now leaue the same by outwarde meanes in parte to be obteyned as by education learning instruction reading studying c. which meanes being neglected God doth of his iustice permitte euill Magistrates and officers which he also sometymes doth for the offences of the people as may be séene in the most parte of the kings of Iuda and of Ierusalem and almost in all christian princes and gouernours vnder the Popes tyrannie For I suppose you meane such giftes as be profitable for the Churche Surely if this were true that you here so boldly withoute proofe affirme then should it not much skill what kind of men wer chosen to be either Pastors or Magistrates for howsoeuer they were before furnished with gifts yet when they be once The absurditie of the R plye called God will miraculously poure vpon them gifts necessary though they be the rudest and ignorantest men in a whole countrey Is not this to boast of the spirit as the Anabaptists do but I thinke the Reader vnderstandeth that God now worketh by ord narie meanes not by miracles And though it be certaine that God dothe endue magistrates such as feare him with singular gifts yet doth he it by meanes as is said and it is not at all times so nor in all persons but whē where and in whome it pleaseth him Therefore to ground any generall doctrine vpon singular examples or to stablish an externall kind of gouernment vpon Gods inward and secret working to bind God vnto that of necessitie that he doth bestow of grace and mercy to make that common to al which he of his infinite wisedome bestoweth vpon some is not the part of a skilfull diuine But to let all this passe you do still petere principium and take that as graunted which you cannot proue that is that the office of Seniors is an office established in the Church by the commaundement of God and not to be altered whiche I for my part can neuer graunt vnto you except you haue more pithie reasons to proue it than any that you haue as yet vttered Chap. 2. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 26. Sect. 1. 2. It is true that we ought to be obedient vnto the ciuill magistrate which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vnto him and according to that callyng But it muste be remembred that 〈◊〉 magistrates must gouerns it according to the rules of God prescribed in his worde and that as they are nourises so they be seruantes vnto the churche and as they rule in the churche so they must remember to subiect themselues vnto the church to submit their scepters to throwe downe their crownes before the churche yea as the prophet speaketh to licke Esay 49. the dust of the feete of the churche Wherin I meane not that the church doth eyther wryng the scepters oute of princes handes or taketh theyr crownes from their heades or that it requyreth princes to licke the dust of her feete as the pope vnder this pretence hath done but I meane as the prophete meaneth that what soeuer magnificence or excellencie or pompe is eyther in them or in their estates and common wealthes whiche dothe not agree with the simplicitie and in the iudgement of the world poore and contemptible estate of the Church that that they will be content to lay downe And here commeth to my minde that wherewith the worlde is nowe dec iued and wherewith M. Doctor goeth about both to deceyue himselfe others too in that he thinketh that the Church must be framed according to the common wealth and the Church gouernment according to the uill gouernment (*) A dangerous doctrine which is as much to say as if a man should fashion his house according to his hangings when as indeede it is cleane contrary that as the hangings are made fit for the house so the common wealth must be made to agree with the Churche and the gouernmente thereof with hir gouernment For as the house is before the hangings and therefore the hangings which come after must be framed to the house which was before so the Churche being before there was y common wealth and the common wealth comming after must be fashioned and made suteable vnto the Church Otherwise God is made to giue place to men heauen to earth and religion is made as it were a rule of Lesbia to be applyed vnto any estate of common wealth whatsoeuer Seing (*) An obscu e and deformed argument that good men that is to say the Church are as it were the foundation of the world it is meete that the common wealth which is builded vpon that foundation should be framed according to the Churche and therefore those voyces ought not to be heard this order will not agree with our common wealth that law of God is not for our state this forme of gouernment wil not match with the pollicie of this realme Io. Whitgifte These words would be well considered for they conteine the ouerthrow of the The ouerthrow of the princes autho ritie conteined in the Reply princes authoritie both in ecclesiasticall and ciuil matters But I will only giue a breefe note of them in this place meaning to set foorth this matter more at large elsewhere When he saith that the ciuill magistrate must gouerne according to his calling and according to the rules of God prescribed in his word c. although the wordes be true et if you marke vpon what occasion they be spoken you shall perceiue the venome that lyeth hid vnder them for he doth thereby insinuate that the ciuill Magistrate may not intermedle with the office of the Senior that is with ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction for he taketh Seniors to be the officers appointed by God for that purpose which is to be reaue the ciuill Magistrate of his authoritie and to giue that to Seniors whiche the Pope vnder the like pretence doth arrogate vnto himselfe And therefore w ll and truly sayth M. Gualter in the place before recited Those men meaning suche as Gualter call for Seniors when they haue a Christian Magistrate do distinguish betweene the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in respect of the punishmente of sinnes and the discipline of manners But this distinction is taken out of the Popes shoppe and in the holy scriptures it is no where to be found For there is the same reason of the magistrate in the new Testament that was in times past in the old for so much as Christ hathe sayde that he came not to breake the law but to fulfill it But in times past the Iudges and kings had power to punish those that
first priuately admonished this maketh nothing for your purpose it taketh away authoritie of iudging and condemning from priuate men and not from publike magistrates In the. 12. of the first to the Corinth verse 28. these be the words of the Apostle And God hath ordeyned some in the Churche as first Apostles secondly Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the gifte of healing helpers gouernours diuersitie of tounges How can you gather of these wordes that all this commeth to passe that is hatred fauour corruption by money and affection in iudgement bycause the regiment lefte of Christe to his Churche is committed to one mans hands In these wordes the Apostle declareth that Christ hath lefte in his Churche gouernours and thereof you may well conclude that in the Churche there muste be some whiche shoulde haue authoritie ouer the reste The Apostle dothe not here An vnperfect reason say that in euery particular congregation Christ hath left many gouernours no more than he sayeth that he hath left many pastors for one flocke but in his Churche he hath ordeyned gouernours The gouernement of the whole vniuersall Churche is not by Christe committed to one Bishop or one Prince nor the gouernment of the whole worlde to one Emperour for no one man can discharge such a cure and therefore he hath appoynted in his Churche diuers Bishops diuers Princes many gouernours But one Prince may suffise to gouerne one kingdome and one Archbishop one Prouince as chiefe and principall ouer the reste one Byshop one Diocesse one Pastor one parishe neyther doth the Apostle speake any thing to the contrarie In the. 12. to the Romaines it is thus written he that ruleth vvith diligence What maketh this for your purpose or how cā you wring it to your assertion In the. 5. of the. 1. to Timothie The Elders that rule vvell are vvorthy of double honour c. Paule sheweth in these wordes that suche are worthy theyr stipende reward which rule well in the Church and do their duties diligently But what is that to your assertion The places alledged out of the fiftenth of the Actes be of the like sorte Wheresoeuer mention is made in the Scriptures of gouernours Lacke of discretion in al ging of scriptures or Elders that you alledge to improue the gouernment of one man wherein you shewe a great wante of iudgement And yet there is no one person in this Realme the Prince only excepted which hath such absolute iurisdiction as you would make your disciples beleue But your meaning is that Christe lefte the whole gouernment of his Churche to the Pastor and to some foure of fiue of the Parish besides which you are not able to proue your places of scripture alleged signifie no such matter In those places y t be gouerned by many do you not see what cōtention there is what enimitie what factiōs what partes taking what cōfusion what little good order obserued what carelesnesse dissolutnesse in al māner of behauiour I could make this manifest by examples if I were disposed In the. 18. of Exodus which place you quote to proue that Seniors ought to be zelous and godly Iethro giueth Moses counsell not to weary himselfe in hearing all matters that be brought vnto him but rather to commit the hearing and determining of smaller matters to others And therefore verse 21. he sayeth Prouide thou among all the people men of courage fearing God men dealyng truly hauing couetousnesse and appoynt suche ouer them to be rulers ouer thousands rulers ouer hundredes rulers ouer fifties and rulers ouer tennes c. This maketh nothing for Seniors Moses here was chiefe these were but his vnder officers placed by himselfe This place serueth well for the gouernment of one Prince ouer one whole realme and giueth him good counsell what vnder officers he ought to choose To the same effect and purpose is that spoken and written whiche you cite out of the first of Deuteron verse 13. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. The rest comprehended in these sections is answered before beyng matter whiche perteyned vnto the Archbishop Io. Whitgifte Uery litle of it perteyneth to the Archbishop The Authors of y ◠Admonitiō bring in all these places of Scripture to proue the gouernment of your Seniors but how aptly it app areth in that you cannot salue their follies in so vnapt allegatiōs There be other thinges that require answere but you haue shifted of all in saying that they perteyne to the Archbishop be answered before when as neyther of both is true for they perteyne to your Seniors and be no where as yet answered But I leaue it to the Reader here to consider why you haue not set downe my booke in your Replie ¶ The inconuenience of the Seigniorie in the tyme of Christian Princes especially in the state of this Church Chap. 3. Nowe that you haue spoken all that you can for your Seniors giue me leaue a litle to declare the absurdities and inconueniences that must of necessitie follow that kinde of gouernment 1. Difference disagrement in orders and religion First euery seuerall parish must be as it were a seuerall Church gouerned by seuerall orders ceremonies yea and peraduenture professe seueral points of doctrine for there muste be equalitie among ministers and one of them muste not haue to do with anothers parishe The whole gouernment of the Parish must remayne in the minister and certayne Seniors who shall haue authoritie to correct vice abolishe ceremonies appoynt orders abregate customes make Ecclesiasticall lawes as they shall thinke good for that congregation So that whatsoeuer the Pastor and his Seniors deuise and agrée vpon be it good or euill common or singular it must be obeyed vnder the payne of Excommunication Secōdly that Seigniorie being choosen by the Pastor the parish if the Prince or 2. Confusion of 〈◊〉 any other noble man be of that congregation choosen to that office by the most parte he must not refuse it but attende vpō it be at M. Pastors calling who is the chiefe of the Seigniorie in that respect aboue Earle Duke Ring or whosoeuer moreouer he must be contented to be lincked ioyned in commission with the basest sort of the people if it please the parish to appoynt to him suche Colleags as it is like they will Yea and if they be in matters of discipline and gouernment by such simple Seniors ouerruled as it is most like they shall they must therewith be contented Thirdly it burdeneth the parish more than they are able to beare for wheras now 3. Burden and charge of parishes they repine at the finding of their Pastors then they muste be enforced besides the Pastor to nourish Deacons and sixe or seuen Seniors with widowes also Fourthly it bringeth in a new Popedome tyrānie into the Church for it giueth 4. Tyranny to the Pastor his fellow Seniors authoritie to exercise discipline by
proued And wee can forbidde no man from the communion although thys prohibition be not mortall but medicinable excepte he eyther willingly confesse it or be accused and conuicted eyther in some secular or ecclesiasticall courte for who dare take vnto hymselfe to be both accuser and iudge And this is my iudgement of the authoritie of Bishops in excommunicating The abuses crept into this Church in the executing of it I doe not defende as it is manyfeste in my Answere but wishe them by due order and authoritie with spéede reformed Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Lin. 7. And it is to bee obserued here that bothe in this parte of the discipline and also in all other partes of it as I haue shewed as in harder and difficulter causes things were referred vnto the Synodes prouinciall nationall or general as the case required so if the elders of any Church shall determine any thing contrary to the word of God or inconueniently in any matter that falleth into their determination the parties which are greeued may haue recourse for remedie vnto the elders and Pastors of diuers Churches that is to say vnto Synods of Shires or dioceses or prouinces or nations of as great or of as small compasse as shall be thought conuentent by the Church according to the difficultie or waight of the matters which are in controuersie whyche meetings ought to be as often as can be conueniently not only for the decision of such difficulties which the seuerall presoyteries cannot so well iudge of but also to the end that common counsell might be taken for the best remedie of the vices or incommodities which eyther the Churches be in or in daunger to be in And as those things whiche cannot be decided by the eldership of the Churches are to be reserued vnto the knowledge of some Synode of a shire or diocese so those which for their hardnes cānot be there decided must be brought into the Synods of larger compasse as I haue shewed to haue bin done in the Apostles times and in the Churches which followed them long after Io. Whitgifte So shall there be turbarum contentionum satis much vnquietnesse for one or two busy Pastors suche as your schole can yelde good store of woulde inuent matter ynough The tumultuous and dis orderly order propounded by y e Replyer to trouble the whole Church and Pastors should then be compelled to be as much absent from their benefyces by reason of those Synods as they be now vpon other occasions Lord what a tumultuous Church would this be if this plat for me might take place In the meane while the Prince shoulde be a cyphar and onely wayte to vnderstand what kynde of Religion ceremonies and gouernment these Seigniories and their Synodes would prescribe vnto hir to mainteyne and defende for the must haue potestatem facti onely not Iuris she must take lawes she must giue none she must execute whatsoeuer it pleaseth master Pastors and their Seniors to commaund hir else wil they stirre vp the whole countrey against hir at the least she must be excommunicated me thinketh I see the very beginning of a newe Popedome Haue you shewed this cōfused order to haue bin in y e Apostles time or in y e primitiue Church T. C. ascribeth his owne deuise to the Apostles Where haue you shewed it or when will you proue it Synodes there were indéede and necessary it is that when occasion serueth they should be but your Seigniorie in euery Towne or parish vnder a Christian Prince neuer was neyther is it possible that without confusion it should be as I haue before declared But what audacitie is this to ascribe an order inuented by your selfe vpon the whiche scarse thrée of you do agrée if you were well examined and in the which your selfe or euer it were long would espie some thing to be altered vnto the Apostles Of Byshops Courts and their officers Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 1. These things standing in this sort al those courts of Byshops and Archbyshops must needes fall which were by Antichrist erected against this lawfull iurisdiction of eldership as the court of faculties and those which are holden by Chauncellours commissaries officialls and such like the describing of the corruptions whereof would require a whole booke of whiche I will note the principall heads and summes Io. Whitgifte And not these courts only but all the courts in England would be deuoured vp of your Seigniorie yea each the Princes regall authoritie as may appeare partly by that which is said before and partly by that which shall follow hereafter For what iurisdiction will not your Seigniorie vsurp what matters would it not presume to determine what degrée of person would it not tread vnder foote but let vs heare what you say of these courts Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 2. First for that they enter into an office which perteyneth not vnto them but to euery particular Church and especially to the eldership and gouernours of the Church and therfore although they should do nothing but that which were good lawfull and godly yet can they not approue their labours vnto men much lesse to God putting their sickle in another mans haruest For neyther by the truth of the word of God doth that apperteyne vnto them neyther by M. Doctors own iudgment if his yea were yea and his nay nay considering that he sayd before that this iurisdiction belongeth to the ministers And although it should perteyne vnto the Byshop as he is called to whome notwithstanding it doth not apperteyne yet were it not lawfull for him to translate thys office vnto another and to appoynt one to do it when he listeth no more than he can appoynt them to do his other offices of ministring as preaching the word and ministring the sacraments Io. Whitgifte Your seuerall gouernment by eldership in euery parish I vtterly reiect as neyther iustifiable by Gods worde nor any example of any churche at any tyme vnder a Christian prince in that maner and forme by you prescribed The courte of faculties medleth not with excommunications The courtes of Chauncellours c. haue many moe matters to deale withall than excommunication for that is but one parte of discipline that they vse or ought to vse only vpon an extremitie concerning the whiche discipline and the ministers therof I am of the selfe same same iudgement that I was before and my yea is yea Gualter in .1 ▪ Cor. 5. and my nay is naye And yet it I will tell you what I haue read since in M Gualters commentaries vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. If any would appoynt some kynde of separation or shuttyng out which should be executed by a lawfull magistrate and should rather be ciuill A kynde of ciuill excommunication than ecclesiasticall we will not be against them For the lawes of our cities also doo punish them with excommunication
his appoyntment himselfe sitting as moderator and this was in a matter of fayth But be it as you say though I can finde no suche thing in the firste Action of that Councell dothe it followe that bycause Emperours cōfirmed ordinaunces that were made in Synodes and Councelles therefore they haue no authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall lawes surely I vnderstande not howe you can make any suche conclusion for as I sayde before it is a poynt of greate wisedome and singular care to prouide that weightie matters in controuersie be determined with great deliberation and aduise of suche as be most skilfull in them But this can be no argument to proue that Ciuill Magistrates may make no orders in the Churche or Ecclesiasticall Lawes for euen those orders and lawes whiche were made in suche Councels were made by the authoritie of the Emperour as dothe very well appeare in the same Councels for when the matters were concluded in the Councell of Chalcedon the Bishops brust out into these voyces It is a true and a right iudgement long lyfe to the Senate many Conc. Chalced ▪ Euagr lib. 2. cap. 4. yeares to the Emperour Whereby it appeareth that the chiefe authoritie in suche Councels was giuen to the Emperour and that he was esteemed as the chiefe iudge which appeareth also at large in the seconde booke of Euagrius The. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. The practise of this he mighte haue also moste playnely seene in Ambrose who woulde by 5. Lib. epist. 2. no meanes suffer that the causes of the Churches should be debated in the Princes consistorie or Another reason of the Papists agaynst the authoritie of the ciuil magistrate courte but would haue them handled in the Churche by those that had the gouernment of the Churche and therefore excuseth himselfe to the Emperour Ualentiman for that beyng conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill courte he came not Io. Whitgifte This is an other of M. Hardinges reasons agaynst the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters and he vsed it against the Apologie but the answere made to the same in the defense of the Apologie by that reuerende Father 6. Parte 14. Chap. 5. Diuision the Bishop of Sarisburie is learned and true the summe whereof is this The Emperour Ualentinian at that tyme when Ambrose wrote this Epistle vnto him was very yong he was not yet baptized he knewe not the principles of Christes Why Ambrose refused to come at the Emperours commaundement Religion he was an Arian Heretike he woulde haue thruste out the Christians and placed Heretikes in their Churches he thought it was lawfull for him to do what him listed c. For this cause Ambrose refused him to be his iudge so that he did not mislike his authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall but onely his wilfull ignorance and his tyrannie for that he knewe his iudgement was corrupted and not indifferent And if you had marked the beginning of his Epistle you might haue perceyued that he alleageth for his chiefe defense and excuse for not appearing the decrée of Theodosius the Father of Ualentinian so that in not comming or appearing at the Emperours summon he did but challenge the priuiledge graunted before of godly Emperours vnto the Cleargie And it is euident that the learned and auncient Fathers haue committed the The auncient Fathers haue committed the deciding of controuersies to Emperours deciding of matters of controuersie to Emperours as it appeareth in Athanasius his seconde Apologie where he committing himselfe and his cause to the Emperour sayeth thus VVe require that the Emperours moste godly and most religious Maiestie may haue the hearyng of the same matter before whome we may open both our churches right and also our owne for we hope that his godlinesse vnderstanding our reasons will Athanasius Apol. 2. neuer condemne vs. Likewise S. Augustine Contra Epist Parme. Lib. 1. speakyng to the Donatistes August contra epist. Parmen lib. 1. sayeth Is it not lawfull for the Emperour or his deputie to giue sentence in a matter of religion wherefore then went your Ambassadoures to the Emperour why made they him iudge of their cause Sozomene Lib. 4. Cap. 16. sayeth that the Emperour commaunded that tenne Bishops Sozom. lib. 4. 16. of the East and ten of the VVeste chosen by the Councell shoulde repayre to his courte and open to him the decrees of the Councell that he might not only consider whether they were agreed according to the Scriptures but that he might further determine and conclude what were best to be done Socrates Lib. 5. Cap. 10. sayeth that Theodosius the Emperour for the appeasing Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 10. of contention cōmaunded an assemblie of Bishops best learned to appeare before him and eche parte to write a confession of their faith and religion the which being done at a day appointed they came to the Courte and deliuered vp their writinges to the Emperour who after earnest praiers made perusing the writings that were deliuered rent in pieces the confessions made by the Arians and Eunomians and allowed onely and receyued the confession of the Catholikes The practise therefore of the authoritie of Princes in Ecclesiasticall matters euen in determining and iudging controuersies in Religion you might haue learned by these examples in Ambrose tyme. The. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. vlt. And by whome can the matters and orders of the Churche be better ordeyned than by the ministers of the Churche And if that be a good reason of M. Doctor in the fortie and seuenth Page that the Bishops ought therefore to ordeyne ministers bycause they are best able to iudge An other argu ment of the Papistes to the same purpose of the learning and abilitie of those which are the fittest it is also as good reason that therefore the ministers and gouernours of the Churche should appoynt and decree of suche ceremonies and orders as perteyne to the churche for bycause it is to be supposed that they can beste iudge of those matters bestowing their studies that wayes and further best vnderstanding the state of the church aboute the which they are wholly occupied Io. Whitgifte This also is a reason of M. Hardinges in the same cause but it onely preueth that it is moste conuenient and necessarie that Bishops and ministers of the Church The debating and deciding of matters in religion by bishops doth not derogate from the princes authoritie whyle they he learned and godly may haue the debating and deciding of matters in religion neyther dothe this derogate any thing from the authoritie of the Prince in the same causes we sée that matters in lawe are determined by iudges lawyers so be other ciuill matters by wise and prudent officers in like manner and yet is not the authoritie of the Prince thereby abridged but what if all the ministers of the Churche or moste of them be corrupt and vngodly
as it was in the beginning of the reygnes of Ezechias and Iosias and as ▪ it hath oftentimes bene must all be committed to them then also No godly Princes hauing godly Bishops and ministers of the Churche will alter or chaunge determine or appoynt any thing in matters of religion without their aduise and counsayle But how if there be dissention among them shall not the Prince determine the controuersies as Constantinus Theodosius and other godly Emperours did wherefore the méetnesse of the Priests and Bishops doth not take away any authoritie from godly Princes in matters of the Church The. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 155. Lin. 5. And this is not M. Doctor (*) It is nothing els as will appeare to shake hands with the Papistes For the Papistes would exempt their Priestes from the subiection and from the punishment of the ciuill magistrate which we do not And y e Papists would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determine that that sorthwith shoulde be holden for good and the Prince shoulde be foorthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that be it good or euill without further inquitie but we saye (a) Why then more than at eiher timess or hawe proue you this ▪ that if there be no lawfull ministerie to set good orders as in ruinous decayes and ouerthrowes of religion that then the Prince ought to do it and if when there is a lawfull ministerie it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order that the Prince ought to stay that order and not to suffer it but to driue them to that whiche is lawfull and meete and if this be to shake handes with the papistes then M. Doctor is to blame whiche hath taught vs once or twise before that the appoynting of ceremonies of the churche belongeth vnto the churche And yet I knowe that there is one or two of the later writers that thinke otherwise but as I take no aduantage of their authoritie which thinke as I do so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise But for so muche as we haue M. Doctor yet of this iudgement that the churche ceremonies shoulde be ordeyned by the church I will trauayle no further in this matter considering that the practise of this churche commonly is to referre these matters vnto the Ecclesiasticall persons onely this is the difference that where it is done now of one or a fewe wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe Io. Whitgifte The papistes confese that the prince may punish priest 5 Harding Yes in good sooth is it for M. Harding agaynst the Apologie confesseth that the Ciuill Magistrate may punishe with corporall punishment any estate or degrée of persons offending eyther agaynst the first or second table And Saunders sayeth lib. 2. That Bishops in that they be men be subiect to ciuill Magistrates and therefore in that Saunders li 2. poynt the Papistes graunt as much as you Concerning the determination of matters in religion I know not wherein you differ from them for though the Prince mislike your determination yet can he not him selfe conclude any thing onely he may compell you to go to it agayne and The Replier giueth to the Prince no more than potestatem facti take better holde but if it shall please you to go forewarde in your determination or if you cannot agrée among your selues I see not what authoritie you haue giuen to the Ciuill Magistrate to determine the matter but for ought that I can espie if you and your Seniors be disposed to be peeuishe eyther muste the Prince haue no Religion or els that which you shall appoynt vnto him for potestatem facti you giue him that is you make him your executioner but potestatem iuris you do as fully remoue from him as the papists do for he hath not as you say any authoritie to make orders or lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters Saunders sayeth and so say all the Papistes that he hath authoritatem promouendi Saunders religionem authoritie to promote religion but not constituendi to appoynte and therefore vndoubtedly I perceyue not wherein you differ in this Article from the Papistes In the chiefe poynt I am sure that you agree fully and flatly with them and vse their argumentes and none other that is in this that you take from the eiuill Magistrate omnem potestatem iuris in matters and causes Ecclesiasticall And what Scripture haue you to proue that the ciuill Magistrates authoritie The Replier vttreth strāge doctrine with out proofe yet woulde haue all proued by scripture is not as ample and as large in matters of religion when there is a lawfull ministerie as when there is an vnlawfull ministerie In deede when he hath the one he may the more safely vse their aduise and followe theyr counsell which he neyther may nor ought to do when he hath the other but his authoritie is all one ouer them bothe and surely I marueyle that you will vtter suche straunge assertions so peremptorily without any kinde of proofe For you that woulde haue all thinges proued by the Scriptures haue not in this wayghtie cause vsed one texte of Scripture but onely one borrowed of the Papistes and making directly agaynst you When I say that the Churche hath authoritie to appoynt Ceremonies I speake generally of all states of the Churche as well vnder persecution as vnder a Christian Magistrate not secluding but including the Christian Magistrate as the chiefe and principall gouernour of the Churche committed to him nexte vnder God for I do not speake of a Christian Magistrate as you and the Papistes woulde haue me to witte as of Iulius Cesar Alexander or Nero but I speake of him as one appoynted by God to gouerne not only in the common wealth but in the Churche also Yea I will go further with you I make no difference betwixte No suche difference betweene a christian common wealth the Church as is pretended a Christian common wealth and the Churche of Christe wonder you as muche at it as you will I haue shewed my reasons before and you haue not as yet vsed any to the contrarie wherefore if you thinke no otherwise of this cause than I haue in these woordes taught you the ciuill Magistrate shall be much more beholden vnto you than he is Certaynely I knowe not of any of the late wryters one or two excepted that are of your iudgement in this cause and were it not that the same is learnedly and fully handled almoste of all the late wryters and namely of suche as haue in our tongue notably and learnedly defended this truth of the Princes authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters agaynst the English Louanistes who haue especially sought to impeach the same I woulde in more ample manner haue prosecuted this cause But for as much as their bookes are in euery mans handes it shall be sufficient to referre the Reader to my Lorde
149. Sect. 1. And what reason can you giue why you should not aswell all owe Scilicet the Communion booke of it by subscription as you say that you haue hitherto done by vsing of it in your ministerie Will you speake one thing and doe an other Will you not subscribe to that whiche you publikely vse and giue your consent vnto T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. The Admonition hath no such thing as M. Doctor chargeth the authors therof with that they dyd euer allow of the booke of seruice It sayth they bare with it and vsed it so farre as they might and therfore nowe when it came to the approuing of it by subscription they refused and there is no man which can not vnderstande that it is one thing to beate with a thing and an other to approue it and therfore to beare and to vse it so farre as might be may well agree with their refusall of subscription so that M. Doctors note is not worth the noting The Apostles did beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall lawe yet they neuer allowed that infirmitie and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing that they wrote agaynst it Io. Whitgifte They say they haue not only borne with it but vsed it also in their ministerie c. he that vseth a thing doth as much allowe of it by vsing as he could doe by subscribing But I will not contende with you about a matter of so small weight for neyther is their learning discretion or iudgement suche that the booke is better or worse for their allowing or disallowing of it They shew their natures bent to contention and vnreuerent estimation of the scriptures by abusing of them and that is all that can be gathered out of their booke The Apostles refused not to subscribe vnto such things as they permitted vnto the Iewes for a time neyther did they beare with any thing for their infirmitie agaynst the which they wrote If they haue done any such thing note the place Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 149. Sect. 1. If those persons by whome this booke was first authorised were studious of peace and of buylding vp of Christes Church as you say they were then you that seeke to deface it are disturbers of peace and destroyers of the Churche of Christ. They were singular learned men zelous in Gods religion blamelesse in life and Martyrs at their end for eyther al or the most part of them haue sealed this booke with their bloud But by the A note by the waye way this is to be noted that you confesse your selues to haue allowed that by vsing of it which you say is agaynst the worde of God T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. Those sayth M. Doctor which authorised this booke were studious of peace and of buylding of Christes Church therfore they that speake agaynst it which he calleth defacing are disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the Church So I will reason (*) Vnequal com parisons For in these poyntes they were not buylders vp of Christes church Gedeon was studious of peace and of building of the Church therefore they whyche spake agaynst the Ephod whyche he made were disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church We speake agaynst Images in churches and consubstantiation in the sacraments such lyke which Luther beeing studious of peace and of the building of the church did holde and yet we are not therfore disturbers of peace or destroyers of the church Although they were excellent personages yet their knowledge was in part and although they brought many things to our light yet they beeing sent out in y e morning or euer the sunne of the Gospell was risen so hygh might ouersee many things which those that are not so sharpe of sight as they were may see for bicause that which they want in the sharpnesse of sight they haue by the benefite and clearnesse of the sunne and of the light They sealed not the booke of seruice with their bloud as M. Doctor sayth for some that suffered for the truth declared openly their misliking of certayne things in it and as for the other they could neuer dye for that booke more than for the Lyturgie vsed in the French church or at Geneua For they receyued not the sentence of condemnation bicause they approued that booke but bicause they improued the articles drawne out of the Masse booke And if they had dyed for that booke as in deede they dyed for the booke of God yet the authoritie of their martyrdome coulde not take away from vs this libertie that we haue to enquire of the cause of their death Iustine and Cyprian were godly Martyrs and yet a man may not say that they sealed their errours whiche they wrote wyth their bloud or wyth this glory of their martyrdome preiudice those which speake or write agaynst their errours for this is to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of God Io. Whitgifte These be the words of the Admonition they saye that the Authors of that booke were studious of peace and of the building vp of Christes Churche and therefore vpon their owne words and confession I grounde mine argument This peace that they were studious of and sought to maynteyne by collecting and authorising this booke was a godly peace sought to be maynteyned by godly meanes and therefore suche as shall deface that godly meanes wherby they procured peace can not de iudged otherwyse than disturbers of the same peace Gedeon by making the Ephod did not séeke peace but rather glory for he erected Gedeons Ephod it to be a monument of his victorie Gedeon erected the Ephod for an other ende and purpose than God did appoynt it the Ephod that Gedeon made was the cause of idolatrie Likewise Images are expresly forbidden in the word of God there is a direct cōmaundement agaynst them so is consubstātiation also But the booke of common prayer is framed according to the scriptures appoynted to the true worshipping of God most repugnant to all Idolatrie Idolatrous worshipping and therfore these similitudes exāples that you vse be nothing like it is neither like to Gedeons Ephod ▪ nor maynteineth Luthers Images or consubstantiation but ouerthroweth them all Their knowledge was in parte in that sense that the Apostle speaketh Ex parte The prayse of the makers of the booke enim cognoscimus ex parte prophetamus VVe knowe in part and we prophecie in part c. But if they be compared vnto men I thinke for learning zeale godlynesse sounde 1. Cor. 1 iudgemēt most of thē haue not bin ouermatched by any that hath folowed And surely their learning iudgement was singular But no maruell it is though you make so small account of me poore wretch when you so basely speake of them Undoubtedly in cōparison of your selues I thinke you contēne
the other prayers annexed they be lykewise according to the scripture for they be made to God in Christes name for suche thinges as we neede or as we desire according to that saying of Christ Quicquid petieritis c. VVhatsoeuer you aske my father in my name c. And agayne Petite dabitur vobis Aske and it shall be giuen vnto you Mat. 7. Iacob 1. If any of you lacke wisdome let him aske it c. And. 1. Timoth. 2. with other infinite places besides If you would haue vs to proue that to reade prayers or scripture Only Zuinfildians misliked reading of scriptures in the Church is according to the word of God which you seeme to denie then we say vnto you ▪ that if there were any pietie in you any religion any learning you would make no such vayne and godlesse doubts was there euer any from the beginning of the world to this day the Zuinfildians onely excepted that misliked reading of prayers and scriptures in the Church but you Of wafer cakes ministring in surplesse or cope churching of women I haue spoken Pag. 154. Sect. 3. before wafer cakes be bread surplesse cope by those that haue authoritie in the church are thought to perteyne to comelynesse and decencie Churching of women is to giue thāks for their deliuerāce Bread to be vsed in the Cōmunion comelynesse and decencie giuing of thanks for deliuerance out of peril daunger be agreable to Gods word therfore al these things be agreable to gods word The forme of bread whether it ought to be cake bread or loafe bread euery particular Determination of the Churche in things indifferent thing that perteyneth to decencie or comelynesse at what time in what place with what words we ought to giue thanks is not particularly written in scripture no more than it is that you were baptized And therfore as I haue proued before in such cases the Church hath to determine and appoynt an order Admonition But their craft is playne wherin they deceyue them selues standing so much vpon this word repugnant as though nothing were repugnant or agaynst the worde of God but that whiche is expressely forbidden by playne commaundement they know well inough and would confesse if eyther they were not blinded or else their hearts hardned that in the circumstances eache content 〈◊〉 iudgement wherwith we iustly finde fault and they too contentiously for the loue of their liuings maynteyne smelling of their olde Popish priesthoode is agaynst the worde of God Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 156. 157. Sect. 1. If they were disposed to be craftie I thinke they might soone deceyue you for any great circumspection or discretion that appeareth to be in you by this booke You finde great fault that we stande so muche vpō this word repugnant as though nothing were repugnant or agaynst the word of God but that which is expressely forbidden by playne cōmaundement and herein you saye we deceyue our selues But you do not tell vs howe we are deceyued neither do you let vs vnderstande what you thinke this worde repugnant doth signifie This is but slender dealing to finde a fault and not to correct it you should yet haue tolde vs your opiniō of the signification of this worde seeing so great a matter doth depende vpon it True it is that this worde repugnant or agaynst the worde of God is to The worde repugnant expounded be contrarie to that which in the worde is comaunded or forbidden not onely in manifest words but also in sense and vnderstanding except you vnderstande this worde repugnant on this sorte you wyll bring in many poynts of daungerous doctrine for we reade in the Acts. 2. 4. that the Apostles had all things common and yet Christians haue not al things common Those that were then conuerted to the Gospell solde all they had and layde it at the Apostles feete Act 4. Now it is farre otherwise Then Christ ministred his supper at night after supper we in the morning before dinner he in a priuate house we in the publike Churche he to men onely we to women also with a great many of such apparant contrarieties which be none in deede bicause they be not agaynst any thing cōmaunded or forbidden to be done or not to be done eyther in expresse words or in true sense And therfore you are greatly deceyued when you think that we are persuaded that those things which you find fault with be agaynst the worde of God As for this your saying If eyther they were not blinded or else their harts hardened I pray God it be not most aptly spoken of your selues but I will not take vpon me to iudge those secrets that be onely knowne to God and your selues Admonition By the worde of God it is an office of preaching they make it an office of reading Christe sayde (a) Mat. 26. 19 Mar. 16. 15 go preache Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 158. Sect. vlt. You say by the worde of God the ministerie is an office of preaching and we make it an office of reading To proue it to be an office of preaching you note in your margent Matth. 26. But I thinke your meaning is the. 28. and Mark 16. where Christ sayth to his Disciples Go therfore and teach all nations c. What if a man should say vnto you that this commission was giuen onely to the Apostles for he sayth Go into the whole worlde where as you teach now that no man may come into the ministerie except he first haue a stocke then must he keepe him with his flocke and go no further If this doctrine be true then can not this place serue your turne for as the office of Apostle is ceased by your doctrine so is this commission also except you will haue the one part to stande that is Goe and preach and this to be abrogated In vniuersum mundum into the vvhole vvorlde Io. Whitgifte You haue not any where answered directly to any of this and to the most of it and diuers other things included betwixt the. 151. Page and the. 171. You haue not answered one woorde which the Reader by conference may vnderstand and I for breuities sake haue omitted to set downe ¶ Of reading of Homilies and the Apocrypha in the Churche Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision Admonition The second reason In this booke also it is appoynted that after the Creede if there be no sermon an homily must follow eyther already set out or hereafter to be set out This is scarce playne dealyng that they would haue vs to consent vnto that which we neuer saw and whiche is to be set out hereafter we hauing had such cause already to distrust them by that whiche is already set out beyng corrupt and straunge to maynteyne an vnlearned and reading ministerie And sith it is playne that mens workes ought to be kepte in and nothing else but the voyce of God and holy Scriptures
it be written redde or preached by man for the spirite of God is the Author of it man is but the instrument The rest of your proofes taken frō the vse of the Church as you say be all ab authoritate negatiuè and most of them ab authoritate hominum whiche kinde of argument your self haue before vtterly condēned I haue oftentimes could you that an argument à non facto ad non ius it is M. Zuinglius and other mens iudgement as well as mine is good neyther in diuine nor yet in humane thinges So far as I can learne Ionathan the Calday Paraphrast florished not in Christes Ionathan the Cald y paraphrast before christes time time as you say but. 42. yeares before Christ was borne and I thinke there is none of these Paraphrastes so faithfull in interpreting but that they misse in some places you can not but acknowledge that one good Sermon or Homilie of some learned mans well plainely redde to the people may edifie them more than the reading of these Paraphrastes And yet I suppose you knowe that the Iewes haue those Paraphrastes as yet redde in their Churches wherefore hitherto if you haue spoken any thing it is against your selfe But you say that this practise continued still in the Churches of god c. and you proue it by Iustine Martyr bycause he mentioneth nothing read in the churche but Monuments of the Prophetes and Ipostles Concerning your proofe I haue declared already of what force it is being drawne ab authoritate humana negatiuè Now that this practise continued not still in the Church you shall easily perceyue if you peruse that which Eusebius writeth The epistle of Ciement reade in the churche out of an Epistle of Dionysius Corinthius to Soter Byshop of Rome where he writeth after this sorte And in this epistle there is mention of an Epistle of Clemēt written to the Corinthians declaring that according to the olde custome it was read in the Euseb. lib. 4 ▪ Cap. 2 Church For thus he sayth we haue this day celebrated the holy day of the Lorde wherein we read your Epistle whiche we will alwayes read for admonition sake in like sorte as Dionysius liued about the yeare 147. the former epistle written to vs from Clement The Authors of the Centuries writing of this Dionysius thinke it not vnlike that his Epistles were also read in the Churche bicause Eusebius calleth them Catholicas Catholike Their woordes be these Non videtur prae ereundum quòd Eusebius basce epistolas Catholicas vocet fortè quia in Ecc esijs Cent. 2. cap. 10. piorum solitae sunt legi sicut Clementis This thing woulde not be omitted that Eusebius calleth these epistles Catholike peraduenture bicause they were wonte to be read in the Churches of the faythfull as the Epistle of Clement was And this may testifie of the practise of the Churche in Iustinus Martyrs time better than your negatiue Concil vas La. 4. argument And of the practise since the. 4. Can. Concil Vasens will giue sufficient testimonie where it is decreed that if the ministers be let by infirmitie or sickenesse the Homilies Homilies of fathers read in the church of the fathers should be read of the Deacons Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 172. Sect. 3. But of readyng Homilyes in the Churche I haue some thing Bucers opinion of ho lies in the churche spoken before nowe it shall be sufficient onely to set downe Master Bucers iudgement of this matter in his notes vpon the Communion booke whiche is this It is better that vvhere there lackes to expounde the Scriptures vnto the people there shoulde be Godly and learned Homilyes redde vnto them rather than they shoulde haue no exhortation at all in the administration of the Supper And a litle after There be too fevve Homilies and to fevve poyntes of Religion taught in them vvhen therefore the Lorde shall blesse this kingdome vvith some excellent Preachers lette them be commaunded to make mo Homilyes of the principall poynts of Religion vvhich may be redde to the people by those Pastors that can not make better themselues T. C. Pag. 158. Tovvardes the ende And as for Master Bucers authoritie I haue shewed before how it ought to be weyghed and here also it is suspitious for that it is sayde that his aduise was that when the Lord should blesse the realme with mo learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilies which should be redde in y e church vnto the people As if M. Bucer did not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme which were able to make Homilies so many as the volume of thē might easily haue exceeded the volume of the Bible if the multitude of Homilies would haue done so much good And if the authoritie of Master Bucer beare so great a swaye with Master Doctor that vpon his credite onely without eyther Scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those which are nowe he dare thrust into the churche Homilies then the authorities of the most auncient and best councels ought to haue bene considered which haue giuen charge that nothing should be redde in the church but onely the Canonicall Scriptures Io. Whitgifte They are M. Bucers woordes in déede neyther is there any cause why you should suspect them so to be And it is not his iudgemēt only but other learned mens Ridleys iudgement of homilies in the churche also and namely that famous man D. Ridlies Bishop of London in the treatise before rehearsed Wherein thus he speaketh of the Churche of Englande that was in King Edwards time It had also holy and wholesome Homilies in commendation of the M. Foxe to 2. Pag. 1940. principall vertues which are commended in Scripture and likewise other Homilies agaynst the most pernicious and capitall vices that vseth alas to reygne in this Church of England And truly these authorities if I had no other reason preuaile more with me than all that you or any of your parte had sayd or is able to say to the contrarie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Lin. 4. For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea that nothing should be redde in the churche but the Canonicall bookes of the olde and newe Testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterwarde 59. Can. conc Laodi rom 1. concil as corruptions grewe in the church ▪ it was permitted that homilies might be redde by the Deacon when the minister was sicke and could not preach and it was also in an other Councell of Carthage permitted that the martyres lyues might be redde in the church but besides the euill successe that those decrecs had vnder preteuce whereof the Popish Legende and Gregories Concil vasense 1. to 4. tom cōcil 6. c concil Colon. parte 2. homilies c. creptin that vse and custome was controlled
chappell cannot be but most daungerous which with all humble submission and reuerence I beseech hir Maiestie duly to consider Io. Whitgifte My speach is verie plaine and without all ambiguitie I say there is a dozen Cathedrall Churches in England the worst of the which Churches in learning shal incounter with all papists c. My meaning can not be so darke as you would séeme to make it but bicause your vnderstanding is so dull when any thing is spoken to the commendation of any other than of your selfe I will more plainly declare my meaning whiche is this that there is not one of these dozen Churches but hathe a sufficiente number of learned menne to perfourme what so euer I haue promysed howe so euer boastinglye which I acknowledge to be my infirmitie but yet there vnto constreyned by the arrogancie of such qui cupiunt soli videri aliquid esse Your opprobrious speaches spoken of those Churches as mere slaunders and procéeding from a minde ouercome with enuie and contempt of other I passe ouer affirming still the same that is conteyned in mine Answere to the Admonition the which you may wel snap and bite at in words but in déede you shall neuer be able to steyne those places and whatsoeuer you pretende to the vniuersities yet your good will is as much towardes the one as it is towardes the other they both depending vpon one thréede But if there be abuses in hir Maiesties Chappell as you suppose why haue you not sought the reformation thereof orderly Why haue you sought it tumultuously why haue you libelled agaynst it why haue you sought it with spitefull wordes with disquieting the Church without all dutie and order The. 2. Diuision Admonition The seuentéenth We should be to long to tell your honours of Cathedrall Churches the dennes aforesayde of all loytering lubbers where maister Deane ▪ maistr Uicedeane maister Canons or maister Prebendaries the greater maister pecie Canons or Canons the lesser maister Chauncelor of the Church master Treasurer or otherwise called Iudas the purse bearer the chief Chauncer Singing men speciall fauourers of religion squeaking Queristers Organ players Gospellers Pistellers ▪ Pentioners Readers Uergers c. liue in great idlenesse and haue theyr abyding If you woulde knowe whence all these came we can easily answere you that they came from the Pope as out of the Troian horses bellie to the destruction of Gods kingdome The Church of God neuer knew them neither doth any reformed Church in the world know them Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 224. Sect. vlt. pag. 225. Sect. 1. Here you speake both without the booke of common prayer and Scriptures also for neyther are Cathedrall Churches conteyned in that booke neither haue you any Scripture to proue that which you so impudently affirme God be thanked it is well knowne to those that be not with malice blinded that Cathedrall Churches be furnished with godly zealous Learned men in cathedrall Churches and learned men And that they be the chiefe and principall ornaments of this Realme and next to the Uniuersities chiefest mainteyners of godlynesse religion and learning there be some desire the spoyle of them whose instruments you be But I hope both theyr mouthes and yours also shall be first stopped with earth Maister Deane maister Uicedeane maister Canons c. as much as they loyter may thinke themselues fit to be compared with such as you are in any respectes T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. And as for the reasons which M. Doctor bringeth to establish them in the. 225. page as that they are necessarie which he doth barely say and that S. Augustine alloweth of a Deane and that the Authours of the Admonition are instruments of those which desire the spoyle of them and that a man may as well speake agaynst Uniuersities and Colleges as ag ynst them I haue answered before sauing that it is to be feared that Colleges in Uniuersities if M. Doctor may worke that which he goeth about will shortly be in little better case than those cathedrall Churches which not only by his owne example but with might maine and all indeuour possible goeth about to fill and fraught with non residencies and such as haue charges of Churches in other places (*) What will this slaundrous tongue spare which do no good in the vniuersitie and partly are such as can do none onely are pernicious examples of riotous feasting and making great cheere with the prayes and spoyles whiche they bring out of the countrey to the great hurt of the vniuersitie presently and vtter ruine of it hereafter vnlesse speedie remedie be therefore prouided Io. Whitgifte If I may work that which you say I go about I trust it shall be nothing that derogateth either frō the glory of God the honor of the Prince the peace of the church the cōmendation of the vniuersitie or the encrease of godlinesse learning I thank god I neither haue gone about any thing nor intende to do whereof I am either ashamed The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 hotte and ter 〈◊〉 or afrayde to make mine accompt But who séeth not your greefe In déede I may not suffer those with whom I haue to do to disquiet y e Uniuersitie or Colledge with false doctrine and schismaticall opinions I may not suffer them openly to breake contemne those lawes statutes which they are sworne to obserue and I to execute I may not suffer any man against the expresse woordes of his othe against all honestie and conscience to liue vnder me least I be partaker of his periurie these be the things that I haue done and these be the thinges that I intende to do whereby as hitherto I haue kepte the place where I am in some quiet and good order so do I trust to continue it both to the glorie of God the honour of the Prince the great encrease of learning the edifying of Christes Churche and the commendation both of the Colledge and the whole Uniuersitie And howsoeuer you haue by woorde and writing sought to deface both me and The colledge deliuered from the slanderous Replie the Colledge yea the whole vniuersitie for my sake cōtrary to the expresse woordes of your othe as I sayde in the beginning yet are you in act and déede confuted though I should not speake one woorde for contrary to your expectatiō and practise of your instruments and earnest desire of al that be factious the Colledge was neuer in better quietnesse neuer replenished with more towarde scholers neuer fuller of students of all degrées I speake it to Gods glory to deliuer it frō your slaunders than it is at this presente A great occasion of all these blissinges of God as instruments and meanes is the grauitie the honestie the wisedome the learning the discrete gouernment of those whom you call non residentes whom not I but the noble founders statutes ratified by the Quéenes Maiesties authoritie and allowed of by the wysest of the
many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the Admonition and fauourers thereof onely but euen of all whiche are not willingly blinde I say if he do not amende these speaches the crime of false prophecie will sitte closer vnto him than he shall be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the Lorde Io. Whitgifte There muste be as well rewardes for those that haue spent much time in getting There muste be rewardes for learning already atteyned learning and be learned as there muste be meanes to maynteyne men whiles they be in learning Grammer schooles and the Uniuersities serue for the one and Cathedrall churches with such other preferments serue for the other spoyle the one and the other can not possibly stande Your immodest and vncharitable speaches worke most discredite to your selfe That which I speake of other Churches by way of comparison I speake for the truth of the doctrine sincere administration of the Sacramentes and all other poynts of Religion by publike authoritie established in this Realme wherein I say agayne that there is no cause why it should giue place to any Churche that n we is And yet I do not defende the faultes of men or other corruptions from the which no Church is frée But for the cryme of false prophecie wherewith you charge me I truste it be farre from me I woulde pronenesse to contention and vncharitable iudging ▪ were as farre from you Howbeit we both must stand or fall to our owne Lord and therefore it is no good iudging before the time ¶ Of ciuill Officies in Ecclesiasticall persons Tract 23. A triall of the places alleaged by the Admonition agaynst such ciuill offices as are exercised by Ecclesiasticall persons in this realme Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 3. The places alleaged by the Admonition to prone that ministers of the church may not intermeddle with ciuill functions one onely excepted are well and fitly alleaged and most of them vsed to that ende of writers which if I should name (*) Lorde howe lowe would you throwe him downe all would confesse that they are such as with whom M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day Io. Whitgifte ▪ This is more than modestie would suffer and tootoo outrageous for whatsoeuer the worthinesse of these men is otherwise yet am Ia minister of the woorde as well as they I am a member of the Church of Christ as well as they I am bought with his bloud as well as they therfore to say that I am not worthie to be so much as spokē of the same day wherein they are named is but extréeme immodestie passing contempt There is not so much attributed to Iesus Christ nor the Popes flatterers did neuer so excessiuely extoll him Are they so woorthie that a man may not be spoken of the same day that they are named who be they trowe we or what is their names But belike you are afrayde to name them least by speaking of me the same day you shoulde do vnto them some great dishonour in your iudgement they are better than God himselfe for the simplest that is may be named the same day that God is In déede a pretie cloake to couer your vayne bragging for I thinke you woulde haue named them if you had knowne them But to the matter Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Admonition Moreouer in that they haue s Luc. 9. 60. 61. Luc. 12. 14. Rom. 12. 7. 1. Tim. 6. 11 2. Tim. 2. 3. 4. Bishops pri sōs popishe Eugenius the firste bringer of them in ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall it is agaynst the worde of God As for an Archbishop to be a Lorde president a Lord Bishop to be a Countie Palatine a prelate of the Garter who hath much to do at S ▪ Georges feast when the Bible is caried before the Procession in the crosses place a Iustice of peace or Iustice of Quorum an high Commissioner c. And therfore they haue their prysons as Clinkes G t houses Colehouses towres and astles which is also agaynst the Scriptures This is not to haue keyes but swordes and playne tokens they are that they exercise that which they would so fayne seeme to wante I meane dominion ouer theyr brethren Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 214. Sect. 2. To proue that ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall is against the worde of God first you note Luke 9. verse 60. 61. where it is thus writtē And Iesus sayd vnto him let the dead burie the dead but go thou and preach the kingdome of God Then an other sayd I wil follow thee Lord but let me first go bid them farevvell vvhich are at my house How conclude you any thing of these places against ciuill offices in Ecclesiastical persons Christs meaning in this place is to teache vs I meane all Christians that when he calleth vs we ought not to be hindred from following and that forthwith by any excuse of doing dutie towards our friends or respect of worldly commoditie or for feare of any payne or trouble and this is spoken generally to all Christians and not alone to any one kinde of men T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 4. For the first place if so be that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying 9. Lu his father and saluting his friendes vndone than that he shoulde not accomplishe his ministerie to the full much more he ought not to take vpon him those things which are not onely not necessarie dueties but as it shall appeare do in no case belong vnto him And although it may be applied to all Christians yet it doth most properly belong vnto the ministers Io. Whitgifte This is no answere to that which I haue sayde for I say that the meaning of Christ in this place is that when we are called to eternall life by him we ought not to protracte the time nor to séeke any delayes but leaue all and follow him this is the meaning of Christ this is the summe of my Answere and to this you say nothing but make a new collection that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying his father c. which though it be not the direct sense of this place yet I graunt it to be true for such ciuill offices as I allow in Ecclesiasticall persons are helpes for them to do their duties Wherefore as this place is vnaptly applied by the Admonition so is it vnanswered by you it may as well be vsed to debarre anyother Christians from ciuill functions as ministers of the woorde Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 215. Sect. 1. Secondly for the same purpose you vse Luke 12. verse 14. where Christ speaking to him that sayde vnto him Master bid my brother deuide the inheritance vvith me answereth on this sorte Man vvho made me a iudge or a deuider ouer you Christ came in
An other reason you frame on this sorte If the mynister haue both ciuill and Ecclesiasticall power ▪ men should not be able to iudge in their consciences of the mightie operation of the worde of God in them for they might doubt whether the feare of the outward shewe of the minister carried The Repliers argument siniteth as well at the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 magistrate as at the Ecclesiasticall some stroke with them c. This is as vayne an imagination as is the other and they both may as aptly be applied agaynst the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate as agaynst the ciuill iurisdiction of the minister yea in déede they serue to the ouerthrow of all kinde of ciuill punishment For if the Magistrate make sharpe lawes for comming to the Churche hearing the woorde of God contemning religion and such like men that by such meanes are driuen to heare the woorde of God c. so at the length conuerted may doubt whether the woorde hath wrought this in them or the feare of outwarde punishment Do you not marke how he still smiteth at the Magistrate Percey te you not how neare he approcheth to the opinion of the Anabaptistes who would haue no kinde of discipline in the Church but only excommunication God vseth corporall punishment as a meanes to saluation But to Answere you briefly God vseth corporall punishments as a meanes to driue ▪ euen the elect to the hearing of the worde of God to honestie of lyfe He vseth it also to brydle the wicked that by their exāples other men might learne to beware and that they themselues also may be kepte in order And no man that is truly conuerted by the preaching of the woorde can doubt but that God by the working of his spirite thorough the ministerie of his woorde hath wrought that good in him though by externall meanes as feare of punishment and such lyke he was first as it were enforced to heare the woorde and to kéepe himselfe in order In deede if these reasons of yours were of any force the Magistrate might put vp his sworde especially in Ecclesiasticall matters and so might the minister lay aside his authoritie also least any thing be ascribed there vnto Your glaunce that this was also the pollicy of the Idolaters though you haue no where proued it yet haue I answered it before Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor sayth that ciuill offices are not to be counted worldly affayres but heauenly and spirituall ▪ it is so and yet when they are compared with the Ecclesiasticall offices they may be called secular offices for so much as they to gether with the care of religion procure and prouide for the things whereby we may quietly and commodiously liue here where the Ecclesiasticall offices are immediatly and onely bente to procure the glory of God and the saluation of men and in that signification of heauenly and spirituall which you take marchandise husbandry and the handycrafte be heauenly and spirituall although not in the same degree All lawfull callinges came from God and returne to him agayne that is he is both author of them and they ought to be referred to his glory so that if the mynister may exercise all things which be heauenly and spirituall you may as well bryng him downe to the plough as promote him to the court Io. Whitgifte I call them Ecclesiasticall bycause they perteyne to the inwarde man to the The cluill iurisdiction now vsed is in some respect ecclesiasticall reformation of manners to the punishment of sinne to the mayntenance of Religion to the quietnesse of the Churche and good order in the same so do not all cyuill offices much lesse husbandry marchandise handycraftes goyng to the plough and suche lyke whiche onely perteyne to the body and to this lyfe not beyng referred to the endes that I haue before named Wherefore here your wittes fayled you and I looke for a better Answere Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Lin. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 M. Doctor sayth that the office of a commissioner is Ecclesiasticall bycause it handleth Ecclesiasticall causes I maruell that he is so ignorant that he can not put a difference betwene giuing iudiciail sentences and appoynting bodely punishments whiche are meere ciuill and betweene the vnderstanding the truth of euery such cause according as the worde of God defineth of it which is a thing common as well vnto the magistrate as vnto the mynister wherein the mynister bycause he ought to be most ready ought if neede be consulted with Io. Whitgifte Surely I thinke you scarse vnderstande your selfe for if the causes be Ecclesiasticall why may not the punishment by the Magistrate appoynted vnto them be executed by Ecclesiasticall persons hauing authoritie from the Prince by commission so to do and if the Ecclesiasticall person may giue sentence and iudgement in these Ecclesiastical causes why may he not consent also to the punishments appointed for the same I do not meane he should be the Iaylor or tormentor himselfe but to iudge the person offending worthy of this or that kinde of punishment and to giue sentence of the crime that he hath committed to determine of the cause that is called into iudgement Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. An other of M. Doctors reasons is that as kinges do serue Christe by makyng lawes for him so Bishops do serue Christe by executyng lawes for him as though it perteyned not vnto the Magistrates to execute lawes as well as to make them and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking lawe bycause by executing them he dothe cause the lawes after a fashion to speake This is to deuide the stake of the magistrate betweene him and the Bishop yea to gyue the Byshop the best parte of it For we know that with vs the people be at making of the lawes which may not meddle with the execution of them And if M. Doctor say that he meaneth not hereby to shut the Prince from executing the lawes then as his similitude when it is at the best proueth nothing so by this meanes it halts downe right and is no similitude Io. Whitgifte The Prince executeth his lawes by himselfe he also executeth them by other to whome he hath giuen that authoritie for the fuller and better execution of them in this number are the Bishops for the authoritie they haue in suche matters they haue from the Prince and therefore their executing of it is not to deuide stake with the Cyuill Magistrate but to do good seruice both to God and the Magistrate Chap. 3. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 217. Sect 1. 2. What say you to Elye and Samuell were they not both Priests Samuell priest iudge and iudges what office did the Prophete Elias execute when he killed the false prophets of Baal 1. Reg. 18. or Christ when he whipt the
salued their vnapt and vnfitte alleadging of M. Caluine who is farre from prouing their purpose in those places which they haue noted In deede the true spirituall gouernment of the church is the ruling of Christ by his spirite in the heartes of the elect neither do I denie but that admonition exhortation and excommunication The whole externall gouernment of the churche is not spirituall perteine also to the spirituall gouernment of the church bicause they perteyne to the inward man and vse no corporall force or punishment but I d nye the whole gouernment of the church to consiste herein for I haue proued before and it cannot bee denied but that God hath chiefly and principally committed the gouernmente of his churche to the Christian magistrate by the sworde also and by conuenient lawes and orders to gouerne the same with an externall kinde of gouernment and therfore that which I denye neither you nor they haue as yet proued or can proue that is that the gouernment of the church is only spiritual But styll the Reader may note howe you labour cleane to shut out the ciuill magistrate from the gouernment of the church The ciuil magistrate excluded from gouernment of y e church For if the gouernment of it be only spirituall which you laboure to pro e then what hath the ciuill magistrate to do therewith Admonishe and exhort he may not excōmunicate he cannot and therefore hath he by your doctrine no more to doe in the gouernment of the church which consisteth in these and such like spirituall actions than the poorest subiecte in this lande For when you saye that the Admonition is farre from shutting out either ciuill gouernment or externall gouernment in the churche you speake Subtil sp ch of y e Replier Gouernour in the church not of the church subtilly in saying in the church not of the church for you confesse that the ciuil magistrate is a gouernour in the church but not of the church that is he gouerneth the common wealth which is conteyned in the church but he doth not gouerne the church O howe simply and playnely you deale Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 8. In the margent ouer against the. 21. reason there is this note It conteyneth manifest blasphemie as may appeare Ephes. 1. 17. meanyng this saying of the Bishop to those that are admitted mynisters Receyue the holy Ghost The place in that chapter of the Epistle to the Ephesians proueth no such thing these be the wordes I cease not to giue thankes for you making mention of you in my prayers that the God of our Lorde Iesus Christe the father of glory might giue vnto you the spirite of vvisedome and reuelation thorough the knovvledge of him What sequele is there in this argument S. Paule prayed that God would giue to the Ephesians the spirite of wisedome and reuelation through the knowledge of him Ergo this saying of the Bishop Receyue the holy Ghost to those that are admitted into the mynisterie conteyneth manifest blasphemie Such is your vsuall manner of reasoning T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 1. Upon the. 8. leafe M. Doctor sayth he seeth nothing how the place of the Ephes. maketh any thing agaynst this manner of speach of the Bishop Receyue the holy Ghost and yet it maketh thus much that for as much as the Apostles did vse to pray that the grace of God might be giuen vnto men the Bishops should not vse this manner of speache whiche conteyneth the forme of a commaundement Io. Whitgifte This is farre from prouing the woordes to conteyne a manifest blasphemie Of Tract 4. Cap. 2. the. 4. Diuis the manner of speaking these wordes vpon what consideration the Bishops vse the same forme and that they may do it I haue shewed before Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 9. All this is added Neyther is the cōtrouersie betwixt them and vs as they would beare the world in hand as for a cap a tippet or a surplesse but for greater matters concerning a true ministerie and regiment of the Church according to the worde VVhich things once established the other melt away of themselues and yet consider I pray you whether their owne argument doth not choake themselues for euen the very name of trifles doth playnly declare that they ought not to be maynteyned in Christes churche and what shall our Bishops winne by it forsoth that they be maynteyners of trifles and trifling Bishops consuming the greatest part of their time in those trifles whereas they should be better occupied VVe striue for true religiō and gouernment of the Church and shew you the right way to throw out Antichrist both head and tayle and that we will not so much as communicate with the tayle of the beast But they after they haue thrust out Antichriste by the head go aboute to pull him in agayne by the tayle cunningly colouring it least any man should espie his foote steps as Cacus did when he stole the oxen What other men haue done I know not but for my parte I alwayes suspected partly knewe that some of you had greater matters Great matters pretēded not yet vttered in hand and of more importance than cap tippet and surplisse which surely was one of the firste causes that moued me to be more earnest against you than I was accustomed for I did vnderstād that you were hatching opinions tending not only to Anabaptisme but to the ouerthrow of the Gospell disturbing the quiet state of this church and yet who knoweth not that you haue made the cappe and surplisse your pretence hetherto vntill nowe of late when you see almost all men condemne your folly You say we choake our selues with our owne argumēt for euen the very name of trifles doth playnely declare that they ought not to be maynteyned in Christes churche Surely of themselues they be but trifles as all other externall Ceremonies and indifferent thinges be it is the circumstances that maketh them no tryfles but matters of weight For thinges indifferent beyng commaunded thus or so to be vsed by the Magistrate not as necessarie to saluation and iussification but as conuenient and necessarie for order̄ and decencie be not now trifles And whosoeuer without a lawfull vrgent cause or in a case of necessitie dothe breake the lawe made of them sheweth himself a disordered person disobedient a contemner of lawfull authoritie and a wounder of his weake brothers conscience And if any man shall say that this is to bring vs agayne in bondage of the lawe and to depriue vs of our libertie I answere no for it is not a matter of iustification but of order and to be vnder a lawe is no taking away of Christian libertie Christian libertie what it is For the Christian libertie is not a licence to do what thou list but to serue God in newnesse of minde that for loue not for seruile feare Of themselues therefore they be but trifles but
the selfe same had not the correction of the booke which were the first penners of it and therefore how they will like of this correction it may be doubted But although the wordes in the texte be altered yet the quotations in the margent remayne still Belike they are to be applied as it pleaseth the platformers All this is added in the seuenth reason But some will say that the baptisme of Fol. 4. women is not cōmaunded by law if it be not why do you suffer it wherfore are the childrē so baptized accordingly cōmon experience teacheth that it is vsed almost in all places fewe speake against it this I am sure of that when it was put in the booke that was the meaning of the most part that were thē present and so it was to be vnderstāded as cōmon practise without cōtrolement doth plainely declare All these be but cōiectures Diuers things be suffered in many places vsed without cōtrolment which notwithstanding by no lawe be cōmaunded What the meaning was of those that penned the booke I know not neither as I thinke do you And surely for cōmon practise I can say litle but for mine own experiēce this I dare affirme that I haue not knowne one childe so baptised in places where I haue had to do no not since the beginning of the Q. Maiesties reigne I speake not of the thing it self but only of your coniectures I Baptizing by women not collected out of the booke thinke if the circūstances of the booke be well considered it will appeare that the meaning is that priuate baptisme is rather to be ministred by some minister which in y e time of necessity may soonest be come by thā by any womā But in this poynt I submit my iudgemēt to such as better know the meaning of y e bok being pēners therof thā I do In the same leafe ninth reason speaking of certeyne things vsed about mariage they adde these words VVith diuers other heathenishe toyes in sundry coūtries Toyes about mariage as carying of wheat sheafs on their heads casting of corne with a nūber of such like wherby they make rather a maygame of mariage thā a holy institutiō of God These be but toyes in deede vsed I know not where not conteyned in any part of the boke of cōmon prayers therfore without my cōpasse of defense They lacke matter whē they stuffe theyr booke with such vaine friuolous trifles In the. 10. reason to these wordes as for confirmation is added which the Fol. 5. Papists and our men say was in times past Apostolicall grounding their opinion perhaps vpon some dreame of Hierome And in the same place these wordes be left out VVe speake not of other toyes vsed in it how far it differeth is degenerated from the first institution they thēselues that are learned can witnesse And in the place hereof this is inserted as though baptisme were not already perfect but needed cōfirmation or as though the Bishop could giue the holy Ghost You your selfe in effect haue confessed in your first edition that confirmation of children is very auncient that it hath bene wel instituted for there you say that now it differeth is degenerate Confirmation of children allowed at the last frō the first institution But vpon better aduisemēt you haue left out these wordes in your second Edition as you haue also left out these with other toyes vsed in it wherby you confesse contrary to your former sentence that the confirmation of Children now vsed is without any toyes Howsosoeuer it pleaseth you to accompt Hieromes iudgemēt touching the antiquitie of confirmation a dreame yet his dreame may be of as much credite with wise men as your bare deniall of the same The wordes The ende of confirmation that you haue added in the second place might wel haue bene spared for you know that confirmation now vsed in this Churche is not to make baptisme perfect but partly to trie how the godfathers Godmothers haue performed y t which was enioyned thē whē the children were baptised partly that the childrē thēselues now being at the yeares of discretiō hauing learned what their Godfathers Godmothers promised for thē in baptisme may with their owne mouth with their owne consent openly before the church ratifie confirme the same also promise that by the grace of God they will euermore endeuour themselues faithfully to obserue keepe such things as they by their own mouth confessiō haue assented vnto And this reason is alledged among other euē in the booke of cōmon prayers And that it is not to make baptisme perfect y e boke of cōmon prayers it self declareth in these words And that no mā shal think any detrimēt shal come to Childrē by deferring of their cōfirmatiō he shal know for truth that it is certaine by Gods word that childrē being baptised haue all things necessary for their saluatiō be vndoubtedly saued You adde as though the Bishop could giue the holy Ghost the Bishop may vse the ceremonie vsed by the Apostles that is imposition of handes may safely say this godly prayer conteyned in the booke Defend O Lorde this childe with the heauenly grace that he may continue thine for euer and dayly encrease in thy holy spirit more and more vntill he come vnto thy euerlasting kingdome Amē And other such godly prayers there cōteiued Of any other kind of giuing y e holy ghost there is no mētion in that boke therfore these additions might very well haue bene leftout of your libel To the end of the eleuenth reason these wordes be added and open our eyes that we may see what that good and acceptable will of God is and be more earnest to prouoke his glory to the which I onely answere Amen In the ende of the. 12. there is something left out which they haue placed in the. 13. reason but it is answered before There is nothing added or altered worth the noting onely in the Fol. 6. fiftenth reason where they sayd before that we honored Bishops by the titles of kings nowe they haue recanted that and condemned themselues of an vntruth for they haue left out that title Fol. 7. In the seuenth leaf and 19. reason these words be left out banners and belles which argueth that they were before vntruly sayd to be vsed in gang weeke But to lye is a small matter with these men For Lordes grace of Yorke there is the Archbishop of Yorke The cause of Fol. 8. this alteration I know not When you say that you striue for true Religiō gouernment of the Church c. Fol. 9. You say that you do that which is to be wished you should do But your doings tēde to y e defacing of true Religion ouerthrow of the right gouernment of the Church although you be not the head of Antichrist yet are you his
condemning of all degrées of Schole properly perteyning to Diuinitie A vievve of the seconde Admonition In the fourth parte the Author taketh vpon him to set downe A newe plat forme a platforme of a Churche to prescribe the maner of electing ministers of their exercises of their equalitie of the gouernment of the Churche c. Whiche surely beeing well considered 〈◊〉 appeare not onely a confused platforme without any sounde warraute of God worde but also a fantasticall deuise tending to the ouerthrowe of learning religion yea the whole state and gouernment of the common wealth But bicause I haue before in the confutation of the first Admonition spoken sufficiently of all these matters therfore I wyll onely note one or two thinges in this parte to lette you vnderstande that these platformers buylde not vpon that foundation that they would haue others so strictly bound vnto for let them tell me vpon One minister not to meddle in another mans charge what Scripture this is grounded Let no one minister medle in any cure saue his owne but as he is appoynted by common consent of the nexte conference or Councels Prouinciall or Nationall or further if it may fall out so generall of all Churches reformed ▪ Or this That the ministers must be equall and that some must be gouerned by all and not all by some Or that The Pastor or teacher in euery congregation ought to be the Principall of the consistorie of their congregation Or that Many parishes may be ioyned in one and haue one Pastor and yet that it is vnlawful for one Pastor to haue many Parishes Or that In the meane whyle tyll preachers encrease to furnish the places vnfurnished vpon conference among the learned some discrete man be appoynted to make some entyer prayer c. Io. Whitgifte Passed ouer in silence A vievve of the seconde Admonition Or that it is euill so ofte to repeate Glory be to the father c. Lorde haue mercy vpon Repetition of prayer is not euill vs. c. Or the Lords prayer for the text whiche they alleage for the same Math. 6. is wickedly wrested and corruptly alleaged for the wordes of Christ be not as they translate them when you pray ▪ vse not vayne repetitions but vvhen you pray vse not muche babling whereby not the ofte repetition of good prayers but vayne babling in prayers that is many wordes without fayth and the inwarde affection of the mynde is forbidden Paule 1. Thes. 5. sayth Pray continually And Christ Matth. 6. sayth Pray on this maner Our father c. So that of necessitie we must oftentimes repeate the Lords prayer if we wyll beleeue Christ and his Apostle Paule But Lorde what straunge doctrine is this to call Glory be to the father c. Lorde haue mercy vpon vs. c. Our father c. Popishe Surely these men as I suppose be not well in their wits T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 3. For the repetition of Gloria patri c. I haue spoken sufficiently before but what spirite is it that calleth this translation of the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vse not vayne repetitions a wycked wresting of S. Mathewes place in his sixt chapter what rasor is this that cueteth so sharpe Knoweth he agaynst whome and agaynst the excellent learning and singular pietie of howe many he eaketh For this is the translation of those learned and godly men which translated the Byble which is commonly called the Geneua Byble and is this a wicked wresting Admitte it were not translated exactly to the worde of the Euangelist is it therefore a wresting and a wicked wresting 〈◊〉 hat I will not say wicked but false conclusion or doctrine can be grounded of this tr nslation And they that translate it thus haue not onely the authoritie of the Lexicons to confirme their translation w ch shewe that this worde was taken vp in reproche of a foolishe Poet called Battus which vsed to repeate one thing many times but they haue also the circumstance of the place to warrant it For the reason which our auiour Christ vseth to draw men from this faul leadeth to this translation and can not stande with that sense which M. Doctor setteth downe For howe hang these togither you shall not bable many words without fayth c. bicause your heauenly father knoweth what you haue neede of before you aske It is vnlike first that our sauiour Christ would speake thus bable not many wordes without ayth c. when as rather he would haue forbidden them to speake any one worde without fayth c. For if he shoulde speake thus he should seeme to haue allowed a prayer without fayth so that it were not conceyued in many words And agayne if as M. Doctor sayth this had beene the proposition which our sauiour Christ diswaded from that they should not bable many words without fayth c. he woulde neuer h ue added this reason for your heauēly father knoweth c. for neyther is he father vnto any such And he would rather haue sayde as S. James in the first chap. sayth that they shoulde be sure to receyue nothing bicause they aske not in fayth Nowe as this reason can not stande with M. Doctors interpretation so doth it well ag ee with the translation of the Geneua Byble For what could be more fitly sayde to driue the disciples from this vayne repetition than to say that the heauenly father knoweth c. and that it is not with the Lorde as it is with men that muste haue a thing oftentimes spoken or euer they can vnderstande it Furthermore what a reason is his we must repeate y e Lords prayer oftentimes therfore we must repeate it oftentimes in hal e an houre and one in the necke of an other And if S. Paules place to the Thes. pray continually bee referred vnto the saying of the Lords prayer as M. Doctor woulde beare vs in hande then it is not lawfull for vs to vse any other words than those which our sauiour Christ vsed But I could neuer yet learne that those words binde vs of necessit e any more vnto the repe tion of the Lordes prayer worde for worde than vnto the repetition of any other godly prayer in the scripture And I would be lothe to saye that it were simply necessarie to vse that iust number of wordes and neyther more nor lesse any time muche lesse oftentimes in so smal a space For our sauiour Christ doth not there giue a pre cript forme of rayer whervnto he vindeth vs but giueth vs a rule and squire to frame all our prayers by as I haue before declared I know it is necessarie to pray and to pray often I kn we lso that in so fewe words it is impossible for any man to frame so pithy a prayer And I confesse that the Church doth well in concluding their prayers with the Lords prayer but I stand vpon this that there is no necessitie layde vpon
phansies they haue in this booke which they can not grounde vpon any scriptures but by wringing and wresting of them and in deede their seeking is to haue all things framed according to their fansies that they may be accompted planters and platformers of churches I omitte this that the author boasteth that he and many others will set thē selues against vs as the professed enimies of the churche of Christ For the matter is not great neither shall they in that point dea e an otherwyse with vs than the Anabaptistes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ther H e likes haue dealte with other Churches This shal be sufficiēt for an answere to y ◠booke bicause all other matters of substance are by me answered before in the former cōfutatiō Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered neither is this proclamation of defense solued A briefe ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets spread abroad of late I haue of late receiued three litle Pamphlets the first as it were a preface to the other two the second entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren The thirde An exhortation to the Bishops and their clergie to answere a litle booke that came foorth the last Parliament and to other brethren to iudge of it by Gods worde vntil they see it answered and not be carried away with any respect of men The preface cōsisteth of these pointes especially first by diuers exāples it is there declared that the wicked and vngodly of this world could neuer away with suche as would reproue them for their manifest sinnes and vngodlines Secondly that this is the cause why these twoo treatises whiche were lately written and imprinted in the laste Parliament time c. wer of so many misliked and the authors therof so cruelly entreated and streightly imprisoned c. Thirdly it raileth on the bishops and such as be in authoritie comparing them to false prophets and to Phariseis c. Last of all it cōcindeth with threatening that if they go forwarde in their synnes their doings shal be with more bitternes of wordes and plainenesse of speache throwen into their faces The first is nedelesse for who knoweth not that from time to time it hath bin the manner of such as were desperatly wicked not to suffer their sinnes openly to be reproued The second is false vncharitable slaunderous for the cause why the bookes be not estemed especially of the wise learned is the vntrue doctrine conteined in them mainteined with vntrue and v apt allegations of the scriptures and enterlaced with opprobrious termes and railing speaches tending to the disquietnes of the church and ouerthrow of true religiō The authors therof to be imprisoned not for telling any mā of his sinnes but for writing libels against this whole church of England against the booke of common praer against the ministery against y e sacraments finally against the whole forme and gouernmēt of the church by the whole consent of this Realme established and according to the rule of Gods word And with what face can you say that they be imprisoned for telling men of their sinnes where euer reade you or heard you that any of the Prophets or Apostles tolde men of their sinnes by libels Surely Libelling is no true way of reforming that kinde of dealing is not for the Apostles of Christe but for the ministers of Sathan T C. Pag. 177. Sect. 1. here he saith the authors of the Admomtion are not punished or their booke misliked for that it telleth of the faults in the church or of the sinnes of men but for y t it mainteineth false doctrine for that they preferred a libel for the doctrine it appeareth by that which is said what it is And if he would define what a libel were ▪ it were easy to answere vnto the other point If he meane bicause it was preferred without any name vnto it how will he answere (*) Forsoo h 〈◊〉 you make wicked comparison to the example of S. Iohn in y e Apocalips who reprehend ng the ministers o diuers churches ▪ did not (a) A manifest vntruth put to his name vnto his book And to the writer of the Epistle vnto the Hebrewes ▪ which was a singular instrument and did not subscribe his epistle wherin notwithstāding he sharply rebuketh diuers faults amongst thē And yet S. Iohn nor the writer to the Hebrues were not the ministers of Satan And if he call it a libell bycause it vseth some sharper speaches surely all men see that his booke deserueth then to be called a Satyr hauing for tart words bitter and for one twenty But in what respect soeuer he calleth it a libell he accuseth not so much the authours of the Admonition for preferring of it as diuers of the honorable house of Parliament which did allow it Io. Whitgifte The comparison is very vnequall and odious that you make betwixte the holy bookes of the Scripture indited by the spirit of God and reputed and taken as portions of the canonicall scriptures wherein only we haue to séeke the doctrine of saluation and these rayling rude vncharitable and vnlearned Admonitions And yet in the one of them that is in the Reuelation you are fouly ouershot for the name of Iohn setteth his name to the Apocalips both in the beginning end the author of that booke is expressed thrée times in the firste chapter and that with such circumstances that it cannot well be doubted who the author was though you would cauill about the multiplicitie of the name Likewise his name is expressed in the latter chapter of the booke wherefore you were not well aduised when you set it downe that S. Iohn in the Apocalips did not put his name to his booke He saithe in the. 1. cap. in the first verse Seruo suo Iohanni and in the. 4. verse Ioannes 7. ecclesijs quae sunt in Asia and a little after Ego Ioannes frater vester c. and in the last chap. Ego Ioannes qui audiui vidi haec The epistle to the Hebrues hath no opprobrious and slanderous words in it neither doth the author thereof séeke to defame or deface any body as the authors of the Admonition do If my booke be comparable to eyther of the Admonitions in sharpe and vncharitable speaches proue it vnto me by comparing them togither and surely I will like the worse both of my boke and of my self and confesse that I haue offended Although I might excuse my selfe in saying that I haue done it in the defense of the truth and vendicating this Church of England from such vntollerable slanders as they burthen it with If any of the honorable house of Parliament did consent to the publishing of it in that manner and forme that it was published which I am sure they did not as you vndutifully and vntruly charge them I will not excuse them and yet they cannot be said to be either the authors or the publishers of it neither can their allowing of
zeale is euen that that Zuinglius doth charge the Anabaptists with when he sayth Ira est non spiritus quo se venditant The ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets c. In this portion entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren ther is no great matter conteined worthie of answering only the author doth excuse himselfe for taking vpon him that exhortation moueth the Bishops to deale brotherly with the authors of the Admonition First bicause they be their rethren secondly bicause they ought first to haue discouered vnto the world by the word of God howe truely or falsely they haue written Thyrdely bycause they do but disclose the disorders of our Churche of England and humbly desyre a reformation of the same according to the rule of Gods worde c. Fourthly that Papists lye abroade in their dioces vntouched c. Fiftly that many lewde light bookes and balades flye abroade printed not onely withoute reprehension but Cum priuilegio Likewise in y e same booke the author seemeth to iustifie the Admonitiō to condemne the lordship and authoritie of Bishops ascribing thervnto the stay hinderance of their pretenced reformation charging them after a sorte with mangling the Scriptures of God and with snaring the godly with such lawes as were purposely made for the wicked These be the principall contentes of that booke The first reason that is That they be their brethren might as wel be alleaged Bretheren may be punished for the impunitie of Anabaptists Arrians and such like who pretend the sinceritie of gods word and would be counted brethren yea it might as well be alleaged for many other malefactours who be also brethren and yet must not therfore escape vnpunished for their offences Shall not the Prince and the magistrate execute lawes vpon suche as breake them bicause they be their brethren in Chryst Beware of such doctrine and let not affection in priuate mens causes carie you headlong into publike errors But I thinke you are in this pointe deceiued for howsoeuer we accompte them our brethren yet they accompt not vs their brethren neyther will they acknowledge vs so to be as some of them both in open speache and manifest signes haue declared And therfore when the Bishops deale with them they deale with suche as disdayn to be called their brethren T. C. Page 177. Sect. 3. After M. Doctor confuteth his owne shadow for the exhortatiō doth not require that the name of a brother should deliuer the authors of the Admonition from punishment if they deserued it but desi eth that it might worke some moderation of the rigoure of it and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison He sayeth that the authors of the Admonition take not them for theyr brethren yes verily although vnbrotherly handled and for fathers too and so both loue them and reuerence them vntill which we hope will not be they shall manyfestly for the vpholdi g of their owne kingdome and profite refuse to haue Christe to reigne ouer vs in whome this fatherhoode and brotherhoode doth consist Io. Whitgifte Let the readers iudge whether it be one of their reasons or no let them also consider that which I haue before alledged out of the second Admonition pag. 35. then tell me whether they take vs for brethren or no. Can you so well please your selues in your own platforme y t except we admit it we refuse Christ to reigne ouer vs I trust he hath reigned ouer vs hitherto and shall doo to the end though your platforme be sunke to the bottome of the sea An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets To their second reason I answer that I thinke they haue bin talked with and heard what they haue to say for them selues but their hautie mindes and good opinion conceyued of themselues will not suffer them to see their errours In this reason you alledge nothyng for them but that which may also be alledged for the Papists or any other sect of heretikes But it is an old saying Turpe est doctori c. How hapneth it that they themselues haue first defamed not the Bishops only but also this whole Church of England with publike libells before they haue vsed brotherly and priuate conference This is to espie a moate in an other mannes eye c. How true the thirde reason is may appeare in my answere to their Admonition but how true soeuer it were yet their disordered disclosyng by vnlawful meanes that is by libelling deserueth as much punishment as hitherto they haue had for the truth nedeth no such vngodlie meanes of disclosyng If Papists goe abroade vnpunished when by lawe they maye be touched surely it is a greate faulte and can not bee excused and I praye God it maye bee better looked to But thys is no good and sufficient reason for the impunitie of other Bicause some Papistes be not punished shal therfore no disordered persons be punished Or bicause some in authoritie winke at some Papists shall therfore no lawes be executed towardes any offenders Surely touchyng malice agaynst the forme and state of this oure Churche I see no greate difference betwixt them and the Papists and I think verily they both conspire together The same answere I make to youre first reason shall no booke be suppressed bicause some be not It is a faulte I confesse to suffer lewde Ballades and Bookes touchyng Ballets manners But it were a greater faulte to suffer bookes and Libells disturbing the peace of the Churche and defacing true religion Concerning the titles and offices of Bishops I haue spoken sufficiently before In manglyng and wrestyng of the Scriptures none offende so muche as doe the authors of the Admonition who in that point are comparable to the Papistes as may be seene by the learned and diligent Reader If they whom they terme godly do willingly offende against such lawes as were made for the wicked they are to be punished according to the lawes neyther are they to be spared bicause they pretende Godlinesse bre keth no lawe godlynesse for there is no godlinesse in breaking of lawes The thirde scroule called An Exhortation to the Bishoppes and to theyr Cleargie to answere a little booke c. is satisfyed I trus e for I haue as it is there required answered the short and peeuishe Pamphlet as they tearme it I haue disclosed their double and corrupt dealing theyr wringing of the Scriptures to serue their turne and haue declared the true sense meaning of thē I haue not bumbast d it with rethorike but in plain simple maner vttered my iudgement according to uncient fathers contemned o ned men the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures notwithstanding I haue in sundrie pointes declared the vse of the Church of Christ in tymes past and do vse the testimonie of auncient Councels and learned fathers whiche these vnlearned men vnlearnedly contemne a thing not heard of in any age or Churche nor allowed of
it be vpon occasion of sicknesse c as I haue before declared he woulde haue all or the moste parte that be present to communicate and who defendeth the contrarie and yet if they will not the rest may not be secluded his whole drift is to reproue such as will not communicate and not to prohibite the distribution of the Supper to those that be willing be they moe or be they fewer so that there be a competent number that it may be a Communion T. C. M. Beza against VVestphalus sheweth that it is not decent that baptisme be ministred but in the Church and that at standing houres and by the ministers and further that vpō no necessitie as it is called it ought to be ministred in priuate houses And that if it might be ministred in priuate houses yet not otherwise than by Ministers Io. Whitgifte You vntruely report M. Beza his wordes he onely sheweth in that place what the order of the Church is where he remaineth he doth not prescribe any certaine rule for all Churches neyther is it méete that he shoulde in such cases He so speaketh of baptizing in priuate houses that he doth not simplie condemne it But what soeuer his iudgement is in that poynt his mynd is not I am sure to bynde all other Churches to the same which thinke and teach as soundly of this Sacrament as he doth or can do though they agrée not with him in all circumstances T. C. M. Caluin in his Institutions 4. booke chapter 15. sect 20. 21. proueth that baptisme ought not to be ministred by priuate men or by any women Io. Whitgifte Only ministers of the Church are y e ordinarie ministers of baptisme neither may any other chalenge that function vnto thēselues ordinarily but yet if vpon occasion a priuate person do baptise the baptisme is good and lawfull euen as the circumcision was true circumcision that was ministred by Sephora As I haue proued Tract 9. cap. 5. T. C. ◠The iudgement of those late writers touching ceremonies and apparell whose secrete Epistles M. Doctor alledgeth appeareth by these places following cited out of their works printed and published by themselues Wherof also some are alledged by the answerer to the examiner where are diuers other places to this purpose wherevnto I referre the Reader M. Bucer vpon the. 18. of Mathewe saith that they say nothing which do alwayes obiect that greater things must be vrged than the reformation of ceremonies thereby defending the reliques of Antichrist for as much as ceremonies are testimonies of Religion And that as there is no agreement betweene Christe and Belial so those whiche are sincere Christians can abide nothing of Antichrist Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer sayth truely for the reformation of ceremonies is to be sought and not to be neglected neyther can sincere Christians abyde any thing of Antichriste as it is Antichristes but what is all this to the purpose is there no reformation of ceremonies in this Church of Englande from the whiche all Antichristian ceremonies are abandoned and those that remaine purged from al opinion of Antichristianitie And that M. Bucer ment nothing lesse than the ceremonies nowe reteined in this Church of Englande as we vse them it maye euidently appeare by that whiche I haue alledged out of him Tract 7. cap. 5. the. 5. diuision and chap. 7. diuision 4. T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 10. chap. of the second boke of the Kings saith that the Lutherans must take heede least whilest they cutte off many Popishe errors they followe Iehu by reteining also many Popish things For they defende still the reall presence in the bread of the Supper and Images and Vestiments c. and saith that religion must be wholly reformed to the quick Io. Whitgifte M. Martyr nameth the Popishe things which the Lutherans obserue to be the reall presence images all the Popish apparell which they vsed in their Masse for so doth he meane which this Church hath refused What his opinion is of this apparell that we reteine I haue declared tract 7. chap. 5. the. 4. diuision where he of purpose speaketh concerning the same God be thanked Religion is wholly reformed euen to the quicke in this Churche T. C. Bullinger in his Decades 5. Booke and ninth Sermon saythe that our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles vsed their accustomed apparell in the Supper and that although in tymes paste the Ministers put on a kynde of cloake vpon their common apparell yet that was done neyther by the example of Chryste nor of his Apostles but by the tradition of man and that in the ende after the example of the Priestes apparell in the olde lawe it was caste vpon the Ministers at the ministration of the Supper But sayth hee we haue learned long agoe not onely that all Leuiticall ceremonies are abrogated but also that they ought to be brought agayne into the Churche of no man And therfore seeing we are in the light of the Gospell and not vnder the shadowe of the lawe we do worthily reiecte that Massing Leuiticall apparell Io. Whitgifte Neyther do we reteine the massing Leuiticall apparell but that apparell onely which Bullinger himselfe alloweth of in diuers Epistles written of purpose touching these matters as I haue expressed Tract 7. Chapter 5. the. 6. Diuision c. T. C. Gualter vpon the. 21. of the Actes among others bringeth this for one reason to improue Paules shauing of his head for that the Gospel had beene preached twentie yeares and that therefore the infirmitie of the Iewes ought not to haue bene borne with And after he saith that that teacheth howe muche the superstitious Maisters of ceremonies hurte the Gospell which nourishe the weaknesse of fayth by the long keping of ceremonies and by their long bearing hinder the doings of those ministers which are more feruent Io. Whitgifte M. Gualter in these wordes sayth nothing against any poynt of this Churche he speaketh truely and nothing to your purpose M. Gualter hath sufficiently shewed his opinion in these matters not onely in written Epistles but in printed bookes as in his Epistle before his commentaries vpō the first to the Corinthians Surely there is no suche weight in these authorities for your purpose that you can take any great aduauntage of them indéede your cause in my opinion hath won small credite by alledging of them ¶ Imprinted at London by Henry Bynneman for Humfrey Toy dvvelling in Paules Churchyard at the signe of the Helmet ANNO. 1574.
as for abuses in it as it is nowe vsed you haue hitherto shewed none if it were abused yet doth it not follow that therefore it is to be remoued except the abuse coulde not be taken away without the abolishing of the thing as it was in the brasen serpent which serpent though it was by God commaūded to be set vp yet was it as M. Martyr saith but for that time wherin power was giuen vnto it to heale and cure those that were bitten of the serpents Num. 21. and therfore being but temporal and thus abused Num. 〈◊〉 was lawfully takē away neither would the Idolatrie committed vnto it otherwise haue ceased But do you thinke that any man doth worship the apparell as the Israelites did worship the serpent S. Paul in that Chapter of the. 1. Cor. reproueth 1. Cor. 11. them for certaine abuses about the Lords Supper whereof this was one of the chiefe that they made it an occasion of feasting and banquetting which maner of feasting in the Church was not onely borowed of the gentils as M. Bullinger sayth but occasion also of much contention and very vnséemely for that time and place And as Master Caluine sayth vpon that place The Corinthians are reproued bycause they had mingled Caluine prophane banquettes and that also with the contumely of the poore with that holy and spirituall feast and therefore expedient it was that they shoulde betaken awaye and if you can shewe the like vncurable abuse in the apparell I will crye away with it as fast as you do Chap. 7. the. 11. Diuision Admonition They keepe the memorie of Egypt still amongst vs and put vs in minde of that abhomination wherevnto they in times past haue serued they bring the ministerie into contempt they offende the weake they encorage the obstinate Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 241. Sect. 3. 4. 5. You saye they keepe the memorie of Egypt still amongst vs. c. No truely no more than dothe the Churche the Pulpit the Bells c. but they teache vs the true vse of Christian libertie and that all things be cleane to those that be cleane Finally that godly men may well vse that which wicked haue abused howsoeuer vngodly They bring the ministerie into contempte Onely with you and suche as you by your continuall crying out agaynst them haue deluded contemners of good orders lawes and statutes are to be seuerely punished for their contempt Good lawes orders and statutes are not to be altered or dissolued bicause by suche as forget their dueties they are contemned They offende the weake and encourage the obstinate Those that be offended with them thinke themselues moste strong and glorie therin with condemning of others The obstinate be encouraged throughe the schismes contentions that you trouble the Church and slaunder the Gospell with which one day you will vnderstande if in tyme you doe not repent T. C. Page 60. Sect. 2. The rest of that whiche followeth in this matter is nothing else but eyther that whiche hath bin oftenti es repeated or else reprochefull words or vniust accusations of contempt of Magistrates withou any proofe at all and therefore are suche as eyther are answered or which I will not voutchs e to answere especially seeing I meane not to (*) T ue for 〈◊〉 aue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for one giue reproche and reuiling for reuiling and seeing that I haue before protested of our humble submission and louing feare or reuerence whiche we beare to the Prince and those whiche are appoynted Magistrates vnderneathe hir Io. Whitgifte This is a shorte answere to say you will not voutchsafe to answere What reprochfull wordes or vniust accusations are héere vttered by me excepte this offende you that I saye contemners of good orders lawes and statutes are to be seuerely punished for their contempt Good lawes orders and statutes are not to be altered and dissolued bicause by suche as forget their dueties they be contemned If this cast you into that choler I can not mende it you must beare with me when I speake the truthe Whether of vs two haue more offended in reprochings and reuilings bicause we are both partiall in our owne causes let vs referre it to the indifferent Readers How farre you are from performing that in déede to the Magistrates that you protest in worde is in another place declared Chap. 7. the twelfth Diuision T. C. Pag. 60. Sect. 3. And therefore I will conclude that forsomuche as the ceremonies of Antichristianitie are not nor can not be the fittest to set foorthe the Gospell and for that they are occasions of fall to some of hinderaunce to other some of griefe and alienation of mindes vnto others the contrarie of all which ought to be considered in establishing of things indifferent in the Churche therefore neyther is this apparell fittest for the minister of the Gospell and if it were yet considering the incommodities that come of the vse of it it should be remoued Io. Whitgifte This conclusion consisteth wholly vpon false principles whereof though some of them haue bin before spoken yet not one of them proued for tryall wherof I referr the Reader to that which we haue bothe written of this matter The Admonition The twelfth Then as God gaue vtterance (b) Iohn 6. 38. Ioh. 12. 49. 1. Co. 11. 23 they preached the worde onely Now they reade Homelyes Articles Iniunctions c. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 62. Sect. 3. Heere you quote in the margente the sixte of Iohn verse 38. where Christ sayth that he came dovvne from heauen not to doe his ovvne vvill but the vvill of his father that sente him Likewyse the twelfth of Iohn verse 49. where also he saythe that he hathe not spoken of him selfe but the father that sent him gaue him commaundement vvhat he shoulde say and what he shoulde speake And the first to the Corinthians 11. Chapter verse 23. where S. Paule sayth that he receyued of the Lorde that vvhiche he deliuered vnto them No man denieth but that the worde of God onely ought to be preached and that as God giueth vtterance But doe you meane that we may not studie for our sermons or that we may speake nothing but the very Scriptures may be amplified texte of Scripture without amplifying or expounding the same when I knowe your meaning heerein you shall vnderstande more of my minde In the meane tyme this I am sure of that the Homilies appoynted to be read in the Churche are learned godly agreable to Gods worde and more effectuall to edification than a number of your Sermons whiche consiste in wordes onely and entreate of little else but of cappe surplesse c. Archbishop Lorde Bishop c. the ende whereof is not edification but contention Homilies read in the Churche haue alwayes beene commendable Homilies red in the Church are commendable and vsuall euen from the beginning looke Augustine Chrysostome and others and why maye not Articles and Iniunctions
beeing collected to the setting foorthe of true Religion and good orders in the Churche be read there also as in a moste meete place But I perceyue you are enimies to reading bicause you loue so wel to heare your selues talking I will say no worse T. C. Pag. 60. Sect. 4. You know they allowe studying for sermons and amplifying expounding of the scriptures and why then doe you aske But by this question you would haue your Reader thinke or at the least haue the Authors of the Admonition in suspicion that they lyked not of studie for sermons God make vs more careful of the good name of our brethren than by suche light and vngrounded suspicions nay without any suspicion nay contrarie to that which is dayly seene hard to rayse vp suche slanderous reportes of them But Homilies are smally beholding vnto you which to proue that they may be read in the Churche alleage that Augustine and Chrysostome made sermons in their Churches for that which we call a sermon they called of the Greeke worde an Homilie so that the argument is that Augustine and Chrysostome preached sermons or homilies in their Churches therefore we may reade Homilies in ours But peraduenture you haue some better thing to say for them afterwarde Io. Whitgifte I haue heard some fautors of theirs earnestly reason agaynst studying for sermons and it is not long since it was almoste in playne termes in the Pulpit preached I thinke they studie for their sermons but howe diligently they studie or whether they would séeme to studie or no I knowe not the wordes of the Admonition are very suspicious That whiche I speake of Augustine and Chrysostome aptly serueth for my purpose for althoughe they were Augustines and Chrysostomes sermons yet in that they haue bothe committed them to writing and lefte them to their posteritie it argueth that they thought them to be very profitable for the Church Neyther do I sée any cause why they should rather nowe be thought vnlawfull to be read than they were then to be preached but yet one thing we may note that bothe Augustine and Chrysostome writte their Homilies or sermons and therefore it may be that they did also sometime reade them in the Churche Of Archebishops Metropolitanes Bishops Archedeacons c. Tract 8. The reasons of T. C. answered whereby he goeth about to take away the superfluous loppe as he termeth it of these offyces Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition The thirtenth and fourtenth Then (c) 1. Tim. 3. 1. it was paynefull nowe gaynefull (d) Phil. 4. 11. 2. Cor. 6. 4. 8. 10. Then poore and ignominious nowe riche and glorious Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 63. Sect. vlt. It was then as it vseth to be vnder the crosse And it is now as it Scil the ministerie vseth to be when God doth blesse it with peace quietnesse and godly Magistrates And yet surely euen now it is more paynefull than gaynefull more ignomious than riche and glorious and that doe those knowe that beare the heate of the daye But it is the more The ministerie is nowe more payneful than gaineful ▪ paynfull and ignominious for you who ceasse not with rayling and spitefull words in Pulpits and at tables to depraue and backebite your brethren to trouble the whole state with your factions and dayly inuented newe opinions the persecution of the sworde ceasseth but the persecution of the tongue is extreme hotte and we who gayne so muche and be so glorious are molested aswell by you as by the Papist and Atheist and therfore not very glorious T. C. Pag. 61. Sect. 1. A hundreth poundes by yere is taken of some benefice for whiche foure sermons onely are preached and those sometimes by an other If this be more paynefull than gaynefull it is bicause the horseleeche hath two daughters giue giue c. And I can not seehowe they can be more glorious Pro. 30. vnlesse the Palace were turned into a Court and their chayre into a throne There are diuers The twelfth of Mat. straungely applyed places that God hathe blessed with peace where the ministers take more payne and haue Math. 12. lesse gayne and whiche make * lesse noyses when they goe in the streates We haue (a) A vayne bragge thoug it were true amongst vs which haue had Bishoprickes offered and as things vnmeete for a minister of the Gospell haue refuse them ▪ God be praysed the sunne shineth not so hotte in this countrey nowe that you neede to complayne of any great heate and if you feele any heate you haue better shade than Ionas had by his gourde ▪ Io. Whitgifte It may be that he which hath an hundreth poundes by the yere for whiche foure sermons onely are preached c. if there be any suche taketh more paynes for the Churche is more carefull for the state of it suffereth more opprobrious wordes and false slaunders whiche is not the least kinde of persecution for dooing his duetie and kéeping him selfe within the listes of obedience towardes God and his Prince than those doe that glorie moste of persecution and lacke of liuing He that hathe muche is also occasioned to spende muche neyther is his paynes the lesse but more if he be once desirous to doe his duetie And the higher he is in degrée the more subiecte to the enuious backbiter and to the slaunderous tongue Those that haue suche Palaces and make suche noyse when they goe in the streates c. I thinke verily take more paynes and care in and for the Churche of God profite their Countrey more in one moneth than you and all your company do in a whole yere Nay I woulde to God it might be sayde you profited Their pompe and their Palaces are by lawfull authoritie committed vnto them and the true Martyrs of God haue occupied the same or the like before them and yet Martyrs too Who amongst you they be that haue had Bishoprickes offered vnto them I knowe not but if they boast of their deniall and haue suborned you to make it knowne they haue their rewarde It maye be the Bishopricke was to little for them and they looked for some greater and so missed bothe but I will not iudge surely this bragge commeth héere out of place The heate of the tongue and backbiter bothe I and other may greatly complayne of and I hope we get not our liuing by going vp and downe the streates and feasting dayly at other mens tables or as Diogenes did by disdayning and contemning all others Melius est vinum bibere cum ratione quà m aquam cum fastu superbia It is better to drinke wyne with discretion than water with haughtinesse and pride It is also more acceptable to God to dwell in a Palace and liue in abundance with dooing a mans duetie towarde God and his Churche than to lye in prison for disdayne and contempte Godly men may enioy preferment and suche as be arrogant and wilfull