Take heed of both Extremes OR Plain and useful Cautions AGAINST POPERY AND PRESBYTERY By way of DIALOGUE In Two Parts By LVKE DE BEAVLIEV LONDON Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun in St. Paul's Church-Yard 1675. TO THE Christian Courteous and Impartial READER I Would fain oblige thee in the beginning of my Book because possibly the rest will not please thee so well Therefore instead of a Preface or a short Advertisement wherewith usually the Reader is put off I give thee an Epistle Dedicatory This I hope will prove acceptable in that it is a new device and also because thou mayst have very cheap the Honour of having had a Book Dedicated to thee But yet besides I assure thee that this Book of itself is worth thy reading for it will make thee see in their natural shape and colours many things which before appeared only under a disguise and if thou art a Lover of Truth as all pretend to be thou canst not but rejoice to see it come out from under the Cloud where before it lay hid And withal thou mayst use it as an Antidote against the Infection of some sugared Poisons which many venture to drink of not knowing their deadly Qualities Therefore I require thee that thou wouldest not fling away the Book as soon as thou findest some things in it against thy former persuasions or thy present liking for oftentimes wholesom Physic is the most unpleasant and if thou readest through and then repentest of thy labour I give it here under my hand that I also will repent of mine but if the Book doth work upon thee the good effect I intended all the Requital I expect is this that as thou art unknown to the Author so thou wouldest not enquire after him because he is unwilling to be known any otherwise than by being Thy Real Friend and Affectionate Well-wisher L. B. P. THE PREFACE MAny Learned Books have been written against the Errors of the Church of Rome by several worthy Champions of the Church of England but usually they read them most that have least need of them while in the mean time they that have but little of knowledge are left unarmed against the Crafts and Subtilties of the Propagators of the Roman Faith I know there is an in-bred Aversion to Popery in the major part of our People but Popery is now a word of a very dubious signification and means rather what every one dislikes than what is so indeed and it is to be seen in the second part of this Book that they that exclaim'd most against what they pleased to call Popery ran themselves into the worst of Popish Errors However 't is not a brutish Hatred or a blind Zeal against unknown Errors can secure us from them A man may easily embrace his mortal Enemy if he knows him not or if he meets him under a disguise Jesuites are Travesty among us and so is their Doctrine they put a strange garb as well upon their Opinions as upon their Persons and I am confident they win more Proselytes by mis-representing the Popish Religion than by proving it to be true Therefore that they might no longer be imposed upon that have not the leisure or the capacity of knowing what the Papists do really believe contrary to that sound and orthodox Doctrine which is profest in the Church of England I have here set down their real Opinions taken out of their most approved Doctors and the Council of Trent itself having transcrib'd their very words without any the least alteration and then Englisht them as faithfully as their sense did require And afterwards I have added some of those places of Scripture which I thought most express against those Errors which our Church hath rejected as being contrary to Gods Word and the Faith of the Primitive Church Now if any man likes those Doctrines of the Church of Rome as they are really in themselves and as they stand in opposition to the Word of God let him embrace them if it so please him but let none flatter himself or be made to believe by others that the Popish Tenets I have mentioned are not so bad as I represent them for I have used the very Words and Expressions of their own Authors which certainly could not be made either better or worse by being transcrib'd by me Perhaps I shall be censur'd for having writ my Book Dialogue-wise and not well manag'd the Intrigue but if they that find fault with this like the matter let them not mind the form if not I had as lieve they should dislike both as but one onely My design was not to make a Dramatic Piece but to make my Actors speak truth This way of writing is easie to the meanest capacities and I am minded to imitate at least in the method that excellent Dialogue called the F.D. However if I can profit those that shall read me I little care whether I please them or not And now if it may be lawful for a Controvertist to moralize a little give me leave to tell thee Dear Reader that what I have written is not to engage thee into Disputes and Religious Quarrels I had rather thou shouldest read The whole Duty of Man and the excellent Discourse which that pious Author hath written against Disputes in his Decay of Christian Piety than this Book of mine By discovering the foul stains of those Religions that make shew of a fair and specious outside my design is not to teach thee how to rail at them or wrangle with their followers But to make thee love and obey that holy Religion which is taught in the Church of England and which promiseth rewards to her followers not for hating those that are of different Persuasions but for obeying the Precepts of Christ If thou art an ill liver no matter what Religion thou art of thy recompence shall be according to thy Works if not thy Creed and a Good Life will do thy soul more good than much Knowledge and Activity in what concerns the Differences among Christians in points of Religion And if thou dost ask me why therefore I should meddle with them and not be wholly employed in the performance of good Works I answer somewhat like as Aphraates did Valens when he came into Antioch to oppose himself to the then prevailing Error of Arius and the Emperor askt him why he had left his Religious Retirement to come into the City Niceph. l. 11. c. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. When the flock of Christ is in danger of being seduced it behoves me also to do my utmost endeavour for its Preservation And when my heavenly Fathers house is set on fire I will by all means endeavour to quench it and fling water upon it though it were but one drop Imprimatur Tho. Tomkyns Ex Aed Lambethanis Decemb. 13. 1675. Popery Manifested AND THE Papist Incognito made known By way of DIALOGUE between a Papist Priest a Protestant Gentleman and a
bonds of Allegiance make Subjects to rebel against their Sovereign and be as active for the Kirk as ever the Pope was for the Church so that in this you wanted nothing of being right Catholicks but that you did not fight to advance the holy See but the holy Classis Pr. 'T is well you can make an end at last I could find in my heart to let you talk alone you are so infinitely tedious especially in your Citations Pa. Sir I know that such grave and serious men as you are are gifted with a great deal of patience but yet let me tell you that I could be a great deal more tedious you have made the subject in hand so copious that one must write Volumes that would treat it in its full Latitude But what have you to say next Pr. I say being we are discoursing of War that you Papists are cruel and merciless to those that differ from you in Religion as appears by your Massacres and Inquisitions abroad and your Persecutions and Plots here at home and you make people believe that in their bloudy cruelties against Protestants they do God great service I am sure we are quite of another temper for we preach meekness and forbearance of one another and are for Liberty of Conscience Pa. Nay I know you shall never lack commendation for want of speaking well of your selves your words then are all honey honey-sweet but the mischief is that your actions are in the other extream as bitter as gall 'T is true you are now for forbearance and Liberty of Conscience but when you had the Power in your hands no men ever more strict and severe You tied your selves by a solemn Oath Faithfully to endeavour the discovery of all Malignants and evil Instruments that should hinder the Reformation of Religion that they might be brought to publick tryal and receive condign punishment in the fourth Article of your Solemn League and Covenant for the Reformation and defence of Religion as you call'd it and so whereas there are but few Inquisitors in the Church of Rome you had thousands of them among you every man that had taken the Covenant was bound to be one bound to accuse his own Brother if he were not of your party And so 't is said of Mr. Case that he performed this part of his Oath very conscientiously as indeed it was his Doctrine in his Sermons on the Covenant Case p. 56 If any one persist to hinder Reformation be it the man of thine own house the husband of thine youth the wife of thy bosom c. thou must with all faithfulness endeavour the discovery thine eye must not pity nor spare Deut. 13.6 7 and 8. But I wonder you would speak of cruelty my last Quotations of your Authors being so full of it It seems you would have me make it out that there is a perfect resemblance betwixt your Church and ours in our Zeal for God and Religion Well you shall be satisfied You know the first thing we do to Hereticks is to Excommunicate them so Mr. Cheynel would have those of the Church of England serv'd in the Epistle Dedicatory of his forementioned Sermon he desires the Parliament That if bloudy Delinquents come to compound their Composition may not authorize them to communicate at the Lords Table And he tells them at the 44 pag. There are some sly Malignants who are too wise to be scandalous they do not roar like a Lion but fret like a Moth you will be importun'd that those men may be spar'd because they are not scandalous in their lives have you not read of one Qui sobrius accessit ad perdendam rempublicam Must men be spar'd because they do not fiercely assault Church and State It seems their honesty would signifie nothing to excuse them from your persecution as long as they were not of your party Mr. Coleman had found a way of punishing the Bishops in case they should escape with their lives which I don't remember to have ever been used amongst us T. Coleman 1644. p. 16. Look to all degrees saith he to the Parliament and spare none and amongst the rest the Prelates whose offences in case they should not be found capital that device of sending them to New-England transcends all the inventions I ever met with as good have cast them with Daniel into the Lions Den. Nay it was so much a duty to God to shew no mercy to any of the Kings Party that he had told them before pag. 15. That their ill success in the West was because of their carelesness in keeping and dealing with Delinquents and proves it by this Scripture 1 King 20.42 Thus saith the Lord Because thou hast let go out of thy hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction therefore thy life shall go for his life and thy people for his people So Mr. Case in a Sermon to the Court-Martial at the 13 pag. There is no dealing with God now T. Case 1644. God is angry he seems to ask this once more Will you stick will you execute Judgment or will you not Tell me for if you will not I will I will have the Enemies bloud and yours too if you will not execute Vengeance upon Delinquents At the 16 pag. he tells them That God would have Judges to shew no mercy when the Quarrel is against Religion and the Government of Jesus Christ Those men that would rise up in cursed practices to bring in Idolatry and false Worship to depose Christ from his Throne and set up Antichrist in his place c. such a Generation hath Christ doomed to execution Luk. 19.27 Those mine Enemies that would not have me to reign over them bring hither and slay them before me And at 18 pag. What severity will God expect from you in these cases who are call'd this day to judge for God between the sons of Belial bloudy Rebels and an whole Christian hurch and State now resisting unto Bloud for Reformation Let me say to you as God to Moses concerning the Midianites Vex these Midianites and smite them for they vex you with their wiles Numb 25.17 and 18. Behold how the Godly sanctified their cruelty with pieces of Scriptures and thereby prest it as a most indispensable duty Mr. Joseph Boden also in his forecited Sermon pag. 16. and 18. exhorts the Committee to do the utmost as they could against the Malignants God arms them saith he with strength against his people because heretofore and now also they have and do find too much favour at our hands I am confident the next time the Devil gets into the Pulpit he 'll preach as good Divinity upon this subject as this man and many of his Brethren did It was so essential a part of your Godliness and such an acceptable piece of service to Christ to shew no mercy to the Malignants that it was the praise of a dead Saint S. Midhope p. 22. Colonel Gould That he
Infallibility and a supreme Authority in things of Faith As for the Decisions of your Popes and Councils it hath been observed by learned men of ours that they are also subject to mis-interpretation and that they have not been able so much as to compose any one of those Differences that have been and are still amongst you And indeed why should not God speak as plain as the Pope in what is absolutely necessary to be known Is it because he is not able or because he is not willing we should know the truth But Friend whilst you tax the Scripture with obscurity and make the people think 't is a dangerous Book see whether you do not give the lie to God himself who saith Ps 19.7 â— The Law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul the Testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the simple according to Rome it should have been making the simple to err The Statutes of the Lord are right rejoycing the heart the commandment of the Lord is pure enlightning the eye not blinding or darkning the eye Psal 119 105. In another place Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path Could any thing be more express against the charge of obscurity 2 Cor. 4.3 4. And so S. Paul saith If our Gospel be hid it is hid to them that perish in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them It seems the Gospel hath a light that shines unto men and the devil endeavours to blind them that they may not see it and whether the Pope be not an useful instrument to that effect let them judge that are not yet quite blind Sure if there was so great a danger in reading the Scriptures God would not have commanded his people so absolutely to study his Law Christ would not have preached to the multitudes for his words might be misinterpreted as well spoken as written and the Apostles should not have directed their Epistles to all the people of Corinth Ephesus c. We should rather have been forbidden searching the Scriptures and sent to his Holiness to know what we must believe and do P. Sir you are tedious in your Reasons and Proofs and whereas I cite only one of our approved Doctors at a time and that in few words you bring me I don't know how many places of Scripture I had rather you would tell me what Luther or the Church of Geneva have resolv'd in these Controversies G. 'T would be to no purpose for we regard not their opinions nor those of any private men but as far as they agree with the truth Our Church is founded upon that Catholic and unchangeable truth which God hath revealed in the Sacred Books and which hath been and is still entertain'd by all those that own the Fundamentals of Christianity Therefore as I have told you 't will be the shortest way for me to back those Doctrins of our Church which oppose any of yours by the authority of Gods Revelations his most Holy Word which is a sufficient foundation for us to ground our faith upon P. As far as I can see you are run a great way off from us for we as many as own the Pope to be the Head and Monarch of the Church never mind what the Scripture saith we follow blind-fold the Judgment of our Church as a most infallible guide Bellar. de Rom. Pont. l. 4. c. 4. We believe that neither the Pope nor the particular Church of Rome can err in things of Faith Non solum Pontifex Romanus non potest errare in fide sed neque Romana particularis Ecclesia No Sir take it from Bellarmin Bellar. de Eccles l. â— c. 14. It is absolutely impossible that the Church should err in any thing whether it be necessary or not Nostra est sententia Ecclesiam absolute non posse errare nec in rebus absolute necessariis nec in aliis G. And you Sir take it from experience that the Church of Rome could and hath greatly erred in many things if it be an error to make huge additions to the antient Creeds and to go directly against the Word of God And though it be impossible that ever the Universal Church should forsake and deny the saving truths of Christian Religion because of the Promise of Christ Matth. 16.18 Yet any one particular Church or Society of Christians though never so great may err and that in Fundamentals as we know of some Pseudo-Councils that have broach'd or confirm'd damnable Heresies And accordingly the Scripture saith Rom. 3.4 Let God be true and every man a liar the Bishop of Rome himself is not excepted And doubtless if the Church of Rome was infallible and the only guide that can lead us to heaven God who hath revealed to us the way to happiness would not have omitted so essential a thing But instead of a command wholly to rely on the judgment of the Pope speaking ex Cathedra we are commanded to prove all things 1 Thess 5 2â— 1 Joh. â— 1 and to hold fast that which is good and again to try the spirits whether they be of God because many false Prophets are come out into the world Now how shall we try them but by the Word of God and if we find you do not follow it why should we any longer follow you Find me as many Texts out of Gods Word to prove that your great Bishop is infallible and that we are all bound to believe every thing he saith as I have produc'd already for the Divine Authority of Scripture and its sufficiency to bring us unto Salvation and then we 'll weigh them together and my faith shall follow the heavier Scale But when we prove and demonstrate that you err and go directly against Scripture for you to come and say that it is impossible because you are infallible and free from all error is to my thinking a very odd and unsatisfactory answer P. Well if you talk of Scripture till tomorrow I am sure ours is the Antient Catholic Church without the which there is no salvation But your Religion is a new upstart you cannot shew me where it was and the Professors of it two hundred years ago G. As for the Professors where they were and that there were many even in the highth of Popery is a long Historical labour but ready done to my hand by several learned men the Author of Catalogus testium Verit. Abbot Vsher Fox White c. They were in the Eastern and Greec Churches much larger than that of Rome they were amongst you some declar'd and marty'd for it some for peace sake living in the Communion of your Church and some conceled for fear of your cruelty sighing in secret for Liberty and Reformation But you may satisfie your self fully in their Books As for our Religion It was
est status necessitatis potest per se immediate procedere dande illius regnum alteri Orthodoxo principi vel primo victori Orthodoxo illud assignando ut Stephanus Papa transtulit imperium à Graecis ad Germanos Innocentius quartus interdixit regni administrationem Regi Portugaliae fratrem ejus substituens c. So likewise Cardinal Bellarmine doth teach That though the Pope as Pope may not usually yet that as Supreme Spiritual Prince he may for the good of souls dispose of Kingdoms as he thinks good take them away from one and give them to another Non potest Papa ut Papa ordinarie c. tamen potest mutare regna uni auferre atque alteri conferre tanquam summus Princeps Spiritualis si id necessarium sit ad animarum salutem For you must know That in the Church the Ecclesiastick and the Civil Power are as in Man the Spirit and the Flesh and that Kingdoms and Governments are not immediately of God but of Men whereas the Power of the Bishop of Rome comes immediately from God Bell. de Rom. Pont. l. 5. c. 6. Vt se habent in bomine spiritus caro sic se habent in Ecclesia potestas politica Ecclesiastica regna non sunt immediate à Deo instituta sed ab hominibus Pontificatus autem à Deo immediate est institutus And so The Pope hath power to dispose of all temporal things belonging to all Christians in general Pontifex Romanus in ordine ad bonum spirituale habet summam potestatem disponendi de temporalibus rebus omnium Christianorum And according to that unlimited Power in the Head the Body of the Clergy enjoys great Priviledges They are above or at least equal to King and Princes and therefore not bound to obey them neither by Divine nor Humane right Ibid. Respectu clericorum non sunt principes superiores potestates ac proinde non tenentur clerici principibus parere neque jure divino neque humano nisi quantum ad leges quasdam directivas i. e. non obligatione eoactiva And so The Goods and Estates of Clergy-men as well Temporal as Ecclesiastick are and ought to be free from Taxes and all duties to Princes and they themselves ought not to be judged by any Civil Magistrate although they do not observe Civil Laws Bell. de Clericis L. 1. c. 28. Non possunt Clerici à judice saeculari judicari etiamsi leges civiles non servent Bona clericorum tam Ecclesiastica quam saecularia libera sunt ac merito esse debent à tributis principum saecularium G. Yes I see your Pope is a petty God upon Earth his Power is not to be controul'd and whatever he doth his Almightiness and Infallibility will bear him out and make the thing good and just though it seem never so much otherwise But sure in this he is none of Christs Vicar the meek and humble JESVS would not so much as divide the Inheritance betwixt two Brethren much less dispose of whole Kingdoms he paid tribute to Caesar and acknowledged his Authority to be from above and we read no where that ever he gave any such power to his Apostles or their Successors as the Pope pretends to He told them indeed that they should be brought and condemned before the Tribunals of Kings and Princes but did no where tell them that ever Kings and Princes should be brought before their Pontifical Chairs to be judged and punished by them We read but of one that ever pretended to have the power of disposing of the Kingdoms of the World he that said All these things will I give thee Mat. 4.9 And except the Head of your Church will acknowledge himself to be his Surrogate he had best shew us how he came by the same Power But this Doctrine is so contrary to the example and Religion of our Lord Jesus Christ that it will be its own antidote you your selves are ashamed to own it openly and when it is known it is confuted P. I see we shall never agree as to particulars as long as you believe to have the Scripture on your side you 'll never yield to the Authority of our Church which you don't think to be infallible But in general by your own Confession ours is the best and the safest Church for you yield that a man may be sav'd in it whereas we utterly deny the same priviledge to yours Stapl. contr 3. quâ—st 9. 10. the Communion of the Church of Rome being absolutely necessary to the Salvation of all men Romanae Ecclesiae Communio omnibus est ad salutem necessaria You also grant that the Bishop of Rome is St. Peters Successor which is a great point And I believe you won't deny but that there is Miracles wrought in our Church which are unanswerable Arguments of the truth of its Doctrine These three are substantial points and will abundantly outweigh all the petty Objections you can bring against some parts of our Religion Pray consider of them at your leisure G. To my thinking they require no great consideration and there is no such weight in them as you fancy though you make great use of such woodden Arguments to seduce the simple yet to those that have but an ordinary competency of knowledge they seem very insignificant The first is comon to you with our Fanaticks they all confine Salvation every one to his own Sect and you and they together take advantage of our charity in that we don't exclude you out of Heaven you believe that you only shall come in it But Mr. Novator don't you trust to our charitable Opinions we may be mistaken for we pretend to no infallibility There was two Barques putting out to Sea both of them bound for Jerusalem one was rotten leaky and much out of order but the Master of it was a bold Man and of an imposing Spirit he would perswade the people that it was St. Peters own Barque that it was imposing Spirit he would perswade the people that it was St. Peters own Barque that it was impossible it should sink and that all as many as would not come into it should certainly be drown'd and never come to the Holy Land The other Barque was sound and strong and well fitted for the Voyage the Passengers therein would tell those in the leaky one of their great danger and exhort them to stop the holes and put things in better order though they did not despair but that some of them might swim to shore upon some pieces of the Barque Now do you think this mans confidence would hold his sinking Ship upon the Water or that the compassionates hopes and wishes of the others would make their own sink Certainly uncharitableness is a very unfit mark to know Christianity and the true Church by But let me tell you that we have no hopes of you as you are Papists Those Articles wherein you differ from us shall
greatly indanger but in no wise advance your Salvation What makes us admit of a possibility of your being sav'd is because you hold still the same Creed with us and because though you have much shaken and weakned yet ye have not quite overthrown the Foundation that is Jesus Christ and his saving merits which we hope will avail to those of your Church that trust in them though they ignorantly believe those things as would make them ineffectual if understood or relied on As for your so much cryed up Succession it signifies no more than this that now the Pope is Bishop of the same Town as St. Peter was or at least a Town of the same name for old Rome hath been destroyed long agone But pray supposing that St. Peters Successors were to be the Heads of the Church who told you that he did not leave that priviledge at Antioch where his Sea was first How many Ruptures and Schisms hath there been in your Succession and how many hath there been of your Popes guilty of the greatest Impieties and worst of Heresies Your own Authors can inform you as also how good and bad Orthodox and Heretick Bishops have succeeded one another in all Seas But make the best of it as you can what is it to the truth or untruth of those points we differ about Because now _____ sits in the same Chair as St. Peter did therefore there is a Purgatory and men ought to Worship Images and the Pope is infallible c. A very Logical Inference as good as that of the man who because he sate in Tullies Pew would needs perswade himself and others that he had Tullies Eloquence But there is Miracles daily wrought in your Church by some Saint or other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This is something indeed but 't is common to all Religions Monsieur Bernier a man of your Church will tell you as an eye-witness of it that the Turks and Gentiles pretend to the same and are more perswaded of the truth of their Miracles than I believe many in your Church are of the truth of yours But let me tell you that Miracles are for Infidels not for Believers St. Paul could not heal Trophimus to him a beloved Christian though among the Unbelievers he could even raise up the dead We believe the Religion Preached by the blessed Apostles upon the account of those Miracles they wrought when they were yet alive without their Reliques and Images work the same wonders now we are perswaded of the truth of what they then delivered And the truth is you are so your selves You don't pretend your new Miracles to confirm those Essential Doctrines of the Christian Religion which you and we are agreed about Your greatest Miracle-mongers have hardly reported any one Miracle wrought these five or six hundred years in these parts of the World to authorize Christian Religion or to prove the Doctrine of the blessed Trinity or of the two Natures united in Christ into one person about which points were most of the ancient Heresies or any one Article of the Creed they are all to confirm your new-found Doctrines The Cures as the Saints work upon those that worship their Images the appearing of dead Folks to beg for Masses and Prayers the return of Souls out of Purgatory to tell how hot the fire is and how well worth ones money Indulgences are the wonders done by your Fryars or the Founders of their Orders or of some one who is to be Canonized and most of them so ridiculous and so absurd that I believe the most serious Bigot amongst you can hardly hold laughing at the reading of your Legends and Books of Miracles And so of those three things you so much relied on the first is against you the second signifies nothing and the last exposeth to contempt those Doctrines it should justifie P. Well I did not think that you could say so much for your selves and I assure you I shall hereafter have a better opinion of you than ever I had thus much at least shall I be profited by our long Discourse and now Sir fare you well I thank G. Nay don't thank me 't is I should thank you for telling me so plainly those Doctrines of your Church we disagree about and which usually you so misrepresent to those of our Religion that they hardly ever know the truth of what your Church believes But pray don't go away yet I 'll help you to that company as you will like much better than mine I 'll tell you whose 't is when first I have desired these two things of you First that you would consider how greatly suspicious it is that your Church maintains those Doctrines we call Errours more for their profitableness to her than for any other reasons because they all tend to the increasing of her Riches or Authority The Popes Infallibility and his Power of disposing of all the World for the good of Souls the exemption of the Clergy from the power of the Civil Magistrate the requisiteness of their intention in the administring of your Sacraments how powerful how honourable and withal how dreadful must the belief of these make your Church and Church-men The Doctrine of Purgatory of Jubilees Pardons Indulgences and worshipping of Saints the best part whereof is the offering to them what Estates what Riches what a world of profit doth it bring to the Head and all the Members of your Clergy In those points of Christian Religion that concern not her Interest your Church is sound and Orthodox those beggerly Heresies of the Arians Eutichian Macedonians c. are condemned and detested by her as much as ever they were by the first Councils yours are Golden Errours if they are gross and palpable yet they are profitable and advantageous The Pope is none of those mean Souls that will hold erroneous Opinions meerly out of perverseness and obstinacy Si Jus violandum c. si Religio adulteranda regnandi causa if he errs at least he shall reign by it And so now reciprocally the Popes Greatness is the best argument to maintain those Errours whereby he got it the splendor of his own and the interest he hath in the Courts of several Princes the dependency all the Clergy hath upon him the numerous Legions of Souldiers he hath quartered in all Abbeys and Monasteries and the influence they have upon the common people his Inquisitions and his Ravilliacks these be the best proofs to evidence the truth of those Doctrines we have rejected as well as to uphold his Pontifical Chair over the Throne of Christian Princes The other is that remaining in the Communion of your Church you would think those the most substantial Articles of your Faith which were delivered by the Apostles confirm'd by the first Councils and now believ'd by you and us together and that upon them you would lay the greatest stress of your future well-being You cannot but see by what I have objected out of
make more Saints Oh it will be a comfortable work to gather and order Saints of our own making Nay though some of the Saints were froward and perchance unruly yet because they helpt to do the work of the Lord they were not to be blotted out of the Calendar for he saith a little before Saints must not be persecuted though they be peevish nay desperate I must not out of a sullen humour deny a peevish Saint the right-hand of fellowship But enough of this you shall find scattered up and down this Book Now as for your keeping of days for the old Saints I confess you are not for that neither do you keep any for Christ that would be you know what But you know also that when the designs of the new Saints were blest with success there was by Authority a day kept in remembrance of it with much solemnity So it seems the destroying of the Kings Forces was a mercy great enough to make a Holy-day of it but it would be Idolatry to do the same in remembrance of those precious mercies the Church receives from what Christ did and suffered for her and his holy Apostles after him As for praying to the ancient and despised Saints it would be to no purpose your new ones having got their place and belike their power too we have seen already that your prayers are effectual beyond what their intercessions could be which is the reason I suppose that when any amongst you is going a Journey or hath some other design in hand or feels the want of any temporal or spiritual thing he desires the prayers of the Saints in your Conventicles So there appears to me no other difference in the case but that our Saints are dead and Canonized by the Pope whereas yours for the most part are alive and of your own making Now I hope I have satisfied you and made it appear that you come much nearer to Popery than the Church of England which by your own confession hath nothing common with us that 's bad but a few Ceremonies and this of order which don't much concern Religion and which according to your Chronology were in the Christian Church long before Popery whereas you own both in belief and practice many of the Popish Doctrines which are counted the worst of our errours only you disguise them a little and put them in a Presbyterian Garb. Pr. Worthy Sir you might have spar'd your great pains for all you have said will not perswade any one man that we have any good will for the Papists 't is too well known that there is an irreconcileable antipathy betwixt them and us No we detest those opinions and practices of yours which you would perswade the world we approve and imitate and we agree with you in nothing that other Protestants disagree in Pa. Yes we do we both hate the Church of England I am sure we are agreed in that except you have gone beyond us as I remember Mr. Love said when there was an overture for peace pag. 42. At Uxbridge Is it likely to have peace with such men as these We can as soon make fire and water to agree I had almost said reconcile Heaven and Earth But there is enough said already to prove that As for your disclaiming friendship with us it only perswades me that you are of those generous Friends who oblige people behind their backs without desiring that any notice should be taken of it for to use Mr. Loves words pag. 22. When â—ou had put down the Pests and Plague-sores of the Kingdom Episcopacy and Common-Prayer Books you thereby advanced our interest greatly and did us a notable piece of service for then you left no visible Church no known Rules of Doctrines no set form of Government and Discipline so that whilst your tedious Rabbies were hammering in their brains the new form of a future Church according to their several fancies or according to the Pattern in the Mount the people were fain to betake themselves some to the Communion of our Church as not a few did and other some to Madness and Enthusiasm as did a great many more And besides the scandal which you brought upon the first Reformation by your fine doings was so great that thanks be to you it hath perswaded a great many that there is no safety but in the Church of Rome where there is a constant union and order So we find a Book printed in 1652. call'd A Beacon set on fire or an Information of the Stationers to the Parliament concerning the great advancement the Papists made and the many Books they printed as also the many blasphemous Books which others put out And in the seasonable Exhortation of the London Ministers 1660. they tell us pag. 10. That all manner of blasphemous and horrid Opinions were openly written and published that there was in many Atheism and contempt of Religion in others Scepticism and Irresolution in many and that some were grown to that heigth of wickedness as to worship the Devil himself And there they complain also That some by their back-sliding and apostacy fell from the truth to Popery as being the only Religion wherein unity and order was retained All which how naturally they issued from your late doings and how much the Pope and Devil were beholding to you for I leave to your own conscienciousness to consider And one thing more that makes me believe that you have more kindness for us than you own by words is that you destroy'd the King and the Church of England by the same means that were appointed by Campanella a cunning Politician and a great Enemy to Protestants pag. 160. The English Bishops it should have been Puritans are to be exasperated and put into fears and jealousies by telling them that the King of Scotland King James turned Protestant out of hope but that he will quickly return to the former Religion when he is establisht in the English Throne The same advice is also lately given by the Marquiss de C. in his Politique de France in that Chapter that treats of England That counsel was followed by you and prov'd successful the outcry whereby you rais'd the people against our late martyr'd Sovereign was Popery Rome Babylon therefore after all this judge you whether we must not be very ungrateful if we did not ingenuously acknowledge that we are highly beholding to you Pr. All that signifies nothing for we differ from the Church of England only in some few Ceremonies being agreed as to the Essentials both of Doctrine and Discipline We honour the first Reformators of this Church and we are perfectly agreed with the reformed Churches beyond Sea which we love and reverence and desire to imitate and when you have said all you can this will be truth still and I am sure will be believ'd so to be by all rational men Pa. I know that one of your Brethren an ancient Sophister in his last scribbling against Doctor
Presbyterian Divine The First Part. P. SIr your humble servant I come to wait you upon a double account to give you thanks for the Civilities I have heretofore received from you and to spend in the best Company I can that short time I am allow'd to stay in England G. I protest Master it grieves me that contrary to our inclination we should be forc'd to be thus severe against you for to secure the peace of the kingdom And were it not that your Religion stands in opposition to the good and peaceable intentions which I believe some of you may have I do protest that I my self would heartily intercede for your staying and living quietly with us However you are very welcome P. Sir I know you to be of a very sweet nature by a long experience and I will requite your kindness by praying heartily for your conversion to the true Catholic Faith G. Master I thank you for your good will but I believe if your Prayers be heard I shall never be of your Religion for if it hath the truth yet therewith ye have mixt so many false Doctrins particular to your own Church that it can never be justly call'd The true Catholic Faith P. Sir you speak as you have been taught but did you well understand those things as you call false Doctrines I am sure you would be of another mind G. Well we are entred ab abrupto upon a Subject that will help us to pass away the time therefore I desire you my good Friend for our old acquaintance sake to let me know positively the truth of what your Church believes in the chiefest things we differ from you as it is taught and recorded by your most approved Doctors P. I will with all my heart as far as I am able and that you may not think I disguise any thing or speak my private Opinions I will bring the very words of the Council of Trent or Bellarmin or Stapleton as the Authentic Proofs of the truth of what I shall say ask you what you have a mind to know G. First let me enquire of what you believe concerning the Holy Scripture for we make it the Ground and the Rule of our Faith being persuaded that it conteins all things necessary to Salvation P. We are much of another mind for we hold that the Scripture doth not expresly contein all that is necessary to be believed or to be done i.e. Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 4. c. 3. that its Doctrine is defective in what concerns Faith and Morality Nos asserimus in Scripturis non contineri expresse totam doctrinam necessariam sive de fide sive de moribus G. That 's very plain and I believe more than you dare say to those you endeavour to make your Proselytes P. Nay Sir before we proceed I must tell you that I expect you would render me like for like and cite the words of Cranmer or Calvin or whatever Authors they are you have your Doctrine from that it may be seen which of us hath the better Authorities for our several Opinions pray who taught you that all things necessary to salvation are contein'd in Scripture G. Our Blessed Saviour who approved the Jews opinion of believing that by the Scriptures they might have eternal life and therefore commanded them to search them John 5.39 Search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they which testifie of me And more expresly S. Paul who affirms that they are able to make us wise unto salvation 2 Tim. 3.15 c. being inspir'd by God These two Texts are of more weight with me than the contrary affirmations of twenty Cardinals And as for the Authors of our Religion we own none besides Christ and his blessed Apostles Those Doctrines of our Church which are positive are plainly contein'd in Scripture and the best Records of the Primitive Church and are own'd and believ'd by you also and the negatives which are against your Innovations can neither be disprov'd by Scripture nor the Antient Fathers but are generally included in the positive All this is to be seen in the learned labours of many of the Reformed Doctors I will not make our Discourse so tedious as to rehearse what they have said upon that subject therefore I desire you to be contented with a few plain Scriptures which I will bring to authorize our denying those Articles of your Roman Faith we have rejected P. Well do so if you will but let me tell you that Scripture is not to be the judge of Differences in Religion 'T is the Pope and Council must decide all Controversies and declare the true sense of Scripture Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 3. c. 3. Judicem dicimus veri sensus Scripturae omnium Controversiarum esse Ecclesiam id est Pontificem cum Concilio G. I don't believe it for I find that God sends his People to the Law and to the Testimony to examin the Doctrine of the Prophets Isa 8.20 and I hope the Gospel may as well have the Privilege that by it we should examin the Doctrin of the Pope Christ tells the Saducees that they cried because they knew not the Scriptures Mar. 12.24 Luke 16.29 It is said in the Parable of Dives They have Moses and the Prophets let them hear them And it is recorded to the praise of the people of Berea that they searched the Scriptures daily to see whether those things were so Acts 17.11 In all these the Scripture is made Judge of Controversies and by it the Doctrin of S. Paul himself is tried and examined P. But for all that the Scripture is very obscure and harder to be understood than the Notions of Metaphysic Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 3. c. 1. Certe si scientia Metaphysicorum difficilior quomodo non obscurissima erit Scriptura quae de rebus longe altioribus agit And if the People should read it it would do them more harm than good for 't would be an occasion of their falling into error about those Doctrines that concern Faith and a good Life Et ibid. l. 2. c. 15. Populum non solum non eaperet fructum ex Scripturis sed etiam caperet detrimentum acciperet enim facillime occasionem errandi tum in doctrina fidei tum in praeceptis vitae morum Therefore all men ought to follow the Decisions of Popes and Councils that they may be guided in the truth G. Nay I would have the people follow the judgment of the Church they live in but I would have them to make use of their Rationality to chuse the Communion of the purest Church according to the Word of God and if they have learning enough according to the four first General Councils and the Primitive Christians and not deny their Reason and the plain meaning of Scripture and make themselves blind that they may be led by those that pretend to
where it had been above a thousand years in the Holy Scripture And suppose what is utterly false that soon after its being written all Christian Churches had been so corrupted as to own fifteen hundred years together those Errors which now are amongst you yet still the Scripture had been the same as much to be obeyed and followed as if it had always been so 2 King 22. When Josiah had found the Book of the Law he did not fling it by because it had been hid and neglected during the reign of Manasseh and Amon his Fathers but he caused it to be read before all the people Ibid. 23. that they might observe what was conteined in it So now we have the Holy Scriptures read and preached to us we must not reject them to follow the Customs of some of our Fore-Fathers in whose time they were hid and disregarded for they are as much the Rule of Faith as if they had never been disown'd But I say farther that our Religion was in those Churches in the East and South which never own'd Popery and even amongst you our Religion was professed you believed all along those three Creeds which you and we do still retein which contein the Articles of our Faith but not the new additions which are particular to Rome The Popes universal Supremacy and his Infallibility Transubstantiation Worshipping of Images Purgatory Indulgences c. These are neither in Scripture nor in the first Councils nor in the Writings of the Antient Fathers not so much as in your Creeds an evident mark of their novelty but in the late Councils and Constitutions of the Popes We confess indeed that there is an universal Church out of which there is no salvation according to that known saying of S. Cyprian Deum non potest c. He can be none of Gods children who is not a son of the Church But that Church is the Christian not the Roman Church and to know which is the Christian Church or which is the purest of Christian Churches for they are all Christian in some measure that own Christ we must not consult humane Histories for they cannot inform us of that and if they could we must not build our faith upon mens report De Sacâ—a l. 2. c. 21. Bellarmin saith of humane Histories Faciunt tantum humanam fidem cui falsam subesse potest that they only beget a human saith which may be erroneous Wherefore in the Controversie betwixt us which is the purest Church we must not search old Records and Chronicles to see which was the oldest the most visible or the most large and flourishing Church that is not the Question and if it were still human Histories cannot be the ground of a Christian Faith but we must examin which agrees best with Holy Scripture which we all acknowledge to be the Word of God for no doubt the true Church wherein Salvation may be had is that which holds that Doctrin which God himself hath reveled to Mankind whatever her condition may have been in times past P. There may be something considerable in what you say but you Hereties have strange cunnings and subtilties to justifie your Opinions and yet still for all you have said you are no better than Rebels against your spiritual Sovereign you are Schismatics undutiful Children that have forsaken your Mother the Church The true and only Church wherein Salvation is to be obtein'd guided and governed by the Vicar of Christ upon earth our holy Father the Pope Vna est tantum Ecclesia sub regimine unius Christi in terris Vicarii Romani Pontific is Bellar. de Eccl. l 3. c. 2. But pray do not make such a tedious Discourse as you have just now G. Good Sir sometimes short Questions cannot be answered in few words I could propose one to you much like that as you put to me which I believe would take a great deal of your time to answer that is Where your particular Religion your sacrificing of the real and corporal body and bloud of Christ for the sins of the living and the dead your Worshipping Images and Saints and making them your Intercessors your Purgatory Indulgences c. Where was all that in the time of Christ and his Apostles Whereabout can it be found in Scripture or in the antient Creeds or in the four first General Councils or in the three or four first Centuries But I will not put you to so long and impossible a Task As for our forsaking the Communion of the Church of Rome we were absolutely bound and in a manner forc'd to do it because of the many errors which had crept and been brought into it by the Ignorance Pride Avarice and Ambition of the late Popes of Rome and their Partizans and which were confirm'd by your Church and defended with that violence that it was death to any man to speak in the least against them Now you know 't is a Rule agreed on of all sides that he is not guilty of Schism that separates but he that gives a just cause of Separation wherfore I retort the charge upon you of being Schismatics except you can prove by the Word of God those Doctrins of yours we have rejected to be Divine and Orthodox for we have left your Church upon this account that you had perverted the truth of God and added many false opinions to it which ye impos'd upon the people as if they had been Articles of Faith And we find it in Scripture Ro. 16.17 Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the Doctrin which ye have learned and avoid them 't is not said except it be the Church of Rome And in another place Gal. 1.8 Though we or an angel from heaven preach unto you beyond or over and above in the Greec 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the vulgar praeterquam quod what we have preached let him be accursed the Pope himself you see is not excepted Again we have left the Communion of your Church because it was Schismatic itself in that it had forsaken the Doctrin taught and believed in the Primitive Church We have come out of Rome to return into the more antient and universal Church We have left the Pope to follow Christ and his Apostles and we have forsaken you no farther than you had forsaken the truth The antient Creeds the first Councils many good and Fundamental Doctrins we hold together in these we hold Communion with you We reject your Communion only in those new Doctrins which ye have superadded to the antient and divine Faith of Christians And so likewise we rebel not against the Pope only we set God above him I 'll still acknowledge him to be a Bishop and the Patriarch of the West and perhaps I had been civil enough never to have disputed his Infallibility and spiritual Sovereignty though I find nothing for it in Scripture had I not found that he hath really erred and that very
grosly whence I infer that therefore his Infallibility and supreme Authority are Chimeras mere devices of his own brain the which I am in no wise bound to obey being they pervert and oppose the plainest truths in the New Testament As that Christ is now in heaven by his bodily presence and not on the Altars as it is in the Creed he is ascended into heaven from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead and in Acts 3.20 Whom the heavens must contain until the restitution of all things That we are forgiven and cleansed by the death and merits of Christ not by Purgatory and Indulgences 1 Joh. 1.7 And the bloud of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins ibid. 2.2 He is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world That the offering of himself on the Cross hath fully satisfied for sin and that his sacrifice needs not be renewed daily and be offered corporally in the Mass for the sins of the living and the dead as you teach and do Heb. 9.26 But now once in the end of the world he hath appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself c. In those things that are evidently against the Word of God we are resolv'd to follow Scripture rather than the head of your Church and we 'll rather for ever break with him than to suffer him to put out our eyes that so he may guide us at his own pleasure P. Yea those be the fruits of translating the Bible and performing Divine Service in the vulgar Tongues every one of you can find fault with the Doctrins and Constitutions of the Church and talk Scripture from morning to night we see among your selves what Disorders it hath caused If your Clergy had been wise enough to have still retein'd the Latin Tongue in all their Ministrations the people could have dislik'd and censur'd nothing 't was sufficient for them to have light enough to follow their guides more submission and obedience with less knowledge had done better Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 2. c. 15. That hath been the wisdom of our Church to keep the Scripture and the publick prayers of our Church out of the peoples reach by forbidding them to be read in any vulgar tongue Catholica Ecclesia prohibet ne in publico communi usu Ecclesiae Scripturae legantur vel canentur vulgaribus linguis ut in Concilio Tridentino SS 22. Can. 9. Sed contenti sumus tribus illis linguis quas Dominus titulo crucis suae honoravit G. Because some men stumble and fall at noon-day must the Sun be charged with a fault that proceeds from their heedlesness and would it become one to say that therefore 't is safer to grope in the dark because then people tread more warily Or must therefore mens eyes be put out because then they shall be willing to be led and to follow their guides S. Peter saith that the unstable and unlearned in his time wrested some difficult things written by Saint Paul and other Scriptures to their own destruction Yet he doth not say therefore let not the common people read them but rather dedicates his Epistle to all those that were partakers of the Christian Faith and exhorts them to grow in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ ibid. v. 18. S. Paul reckons Idolatry Heresies and Schisms among the fruits of the flesh Gal. 5.20 but doth not any where impute them to the reading of Holy Scripture and it hath been observ'd that the perversness of men of great Learning hath been the cause of Heresies and not the mistakes or ignorance of ordinary people in reading the Bible However we have a whole Chapter in the New Testament against the speaking in an unknown tongue as you do in all your Churches 1 Cor. 15.11 If I know not the meaning of the voice I shall be unto him that speaketh a Barbarian and he that speaketh shall be a Barbarian unto me that 's the relation betwixt your Priests and your people they are Barbarians one to another the whole Chapter is to that purpose and would be too long to be transcrib'd But if Scripture had been silent in this one would think that common Reason would have kept men from a practice so absurd and ridiculous that a man should present a petition and know not what he asks and be taught his duty by words he doth not understand is a strange and incredible thing which Reason alone confutes most strongly And yet for all this I do hugely commend the wisdom of your Church in this particular for that hath maintain'd the Popes Religion and Credit for some hundreds of years the understanding of Mass and Scripture hath already prov'd fatal to his authority and should once the rest of his flock be able to compare both together 't is to be fear'd he that hath rewarded many of his friends with the gift of titular Bishopricks might come to be himself a titular Bishop P. I see you value an universal Council as little as you do Bellarmin alone and have as many things to object against it I wonder how you dare in any wise oppose the authority of such an Assembly and think your Judgment is to be prefer'd to theirs G. And I wonder how you can call the Council of Trent universal when there was none in it of the Clergy of the Reformed Churches which are almost as large and populous here in the West as those of the Roman Religion But especially because none of the Christians of Aethiopia nor of those that are subject to the Patriarchs of Antioch and Constantinople whose Jurisdiction is of a far larger extent than that of the Bishop of Rome were present at it Pray did you never hear that a great Company of Arrians met once together and confirmed their Errors and cursed all those that would not embrace it and call'd themselves an Universal Council just so did that Company of Papists that met at Trent But had they been twice as many more you should not wonder how I dare oppose them but rather consider whether what I say be rational or no and whether what you call my private judgment be not rather the express words of Scripture But pray proceed and tell me what your Church thinks of Images and Saints for we are told that you worship them P. Yes Bellar. de San. beat l. 1. c. 19. and that very devoutly and to our great advantage by making religious Invocations to them whether they be men or angels Sancti sive angeli sive homines pie atque utiliter invocantur G. Now I wonder too how you dare do that for I find that when Cornelius would have worshipped S. Peter the holy Apostle took him up saying Acts 10.26 Rev. 19.10 that he himself was a man also And that when S. John fell at the Angels feet to worship him the Angel hindred him saying
had been impartially active in punishing Malignants against the cause of Christ and therein another Moses And indeed who would have shewed any love to those ugly Cavaliers who were Gods Enemies Remember saith Mr. Leech before he exhorted those that were on Gods side to throw down Jezabel that we cannot be rightly for God Jer. Leech p. 21. if we be not against those that are against God Gods Friends must be our Friends and Gods Enemies must be our Enemies Therefore it was I suppose that your minds were so imbittered against the Malignants that you breathed cruelty against them in your very Prayers Mr. Tesdale one of your holy Synod exhorting the House of Commons to pray for the peace of Jerusalem which was the words of his Text out of Psal 122.6 Israel saith he and Amalek join Battel daily should not therefore Moses hands be lift up in prayer and Aaron and Hur help to sustain them until the Lord hath avenged us of our Enemies of pray for the peace of Jerusalem But for a conclusion hear what Mr. J. W. Batchelor in Divinity preacht upon a Thanksgiving-day for your Victory at Hessammoor p. 10. Most of them Cavaliers are desperately wicked whom Satan hath principled to make haste for Hell there is no design so desperate as some of them will not attempt though usually they be bulletted and sent out of this life for it and sent to meet with such Matches as will keep fire for ever It seems their souls found no more mercy at your hands than their bodies did you sent them straight to Hell Whence by the way it is observable that your Power reacheth downward further than the Popes for his as yet goeth that way no further than Purgatory But what a pity 't is that you were not of the Church of Rome VVhat brave Champions should we have had And what a loss is it that such fervent Zeal was spent upon a wrong Cause But however right or wrong it appears that you made the people believe that cruelty to your Enemies was an excellent piece of Religion and most acceptable to God and so dear Sir in this we may also shake hands Pr. You are a lying Calumniator and it is your custom to load with reproaches and the blackest of crimes those whom you are not able to encounter with Reason and Arguments whoever will not dote upon your follies you 'll be sure to defame and slander with your virulent tongues and you make the vulgar abhor your adversaries by representing them as monsters Pa. Well I assure you for all your anger I had the very same thing to say to you and if you speak truth in this we are really Brothers in iniquity for you also clapt a most ugly Vizard on your Enemies face and then brought them out to be worried by the people Wicked Accursed Popish Babylonish Antichristian these were the colours you drew them in as you may see in what follows There was a Book printed 1643. by Thomas Watson call'd The Cavaliers Catechism so foul that I should be asham'd to mention it but that you was not asham'd to print it or at least to suffer it to be made publick It was thus What is your Name Cavalier Who gave you that Name My Seducers and Deceivers in mine Innocency wherein I was made a Member of the Church of Rome and consequently a Limb of Antichrist an Enemy to all Godliness the Child of the Devil and an Inheritor of the Kingdom of Darkness c. What Commandments have you learned and will you keep These following To observe the Will of his Holiness of Rome To commit Treason against Kings that oppose him and To commit Adultery Rapine c. But there was as bad as this spoken out of the Pulpit Steph. Marshal in a Sermon to the Mayor and Aldermen S. Maâ—shal 1644. These are miserable and accursed men these men are Factors for Hell Satans Boutefeus and as the true Zealots are set on fire from Heaven so these mens fire is kindled from Hell whither also it carries them So Mr. J. Vicars p. 6. Vicars in his Jehovah-Jireh I mean to make the godly Reader to see the distress and danger we were plunged in by the nefarious Plots of Jesuitical Priests and perfidious Prelates for I may most justly link them together like Simeon and Levi brothers in iniquity combining and complotting to reduce us to the accursed Romish Religion the whole Book is full of the same stuff And there were Centuries of scandal us Malignant Priests printed by the order of the Committee of the House of Commons wherein the Episcopal Clergy was charged with the most detestable crimes and abominations that could be invented And Mr. White saith of them in the Preface That they were dumb Dogs Jo White 1643. against whom God had protested for their ignorance men swallowed up with Wine and strong Drink whose Tables were full of vomit and filthiness Whoremongers and Adulterers who as fed Horses neigh'd after their Neighbours Wives Buggerers that changed the natural use in that which is against Nature men unfit to live or to preach among Christians Priests of Baal of Bacchus of Priapus Pray what could you have said worse not only of us but even of the lewdest Turks and Heathen So Mr. Gill. at Edinburgh in his Sermon to the House of Commons on Ezek. 43.11 And if they be ashamed of what they have done c. saith at the 13 pag. Gillesâ— 164â— The first Application shall be to the Malignants enemies of the Cause and people of God at this time who deserve to have Jeremies blaâ—k mark to be put upon them Jer. 6.15 Were they ashamed when they committed abomination Mr. Tesdale likewise in his fore-mentioned Sermon Tesd p. 8. Balaam may engross the Promotions of Moab as the temporizing Clergy of late the Dignities of our Church but upon sawey terms they must come then and curse Israel And before at the 6 pag. he had joined together the Atheists Papist Priests the Prelates Irish Rebels and the English Traitors as Sampsons Foxes to destroy the Church and Commonwealth Mr. Calamy himself that man of moderation told the Commons E Calamy 1645. p. 26. If there be any amongst you that favour Malignants because they are your Friends though Enemies to God and his cause this is a great sin to be repented on greatly I say to such as the Prophet to Jehoshaphat 2 Chr. 19.2 Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord Any body whom you knew to be a Friend or an Helper to the King was sure to be a wicked man for his pains and to have fine Epithets bestowed upon him as these Beech 1645. p. 10. Have not our new Midianites Assyrians taking to their assistance the French Philistines Welsh Egyptians Cornish Hungarians the degenerate Ishmaelites and the Renegado English have not these wrested our lives c. Nay the Magistrates themselves were
have respect to the Saints the whole lump of them if you will maintain your interest whole and intire have regard to the Saints small and great More could not have been said to perswade the people to do you good and in this you are in no wise inferiour to the most self-preaching Monks Pr. I scorn your words we are in nothing like your foolish Fryars Presbyterians are a serious and considering people who serve God according to his VVord in spirit and in truth whereas they mind nothing but their fopperies their superstitions and biggotteries whereby they have made Religion ridiculous Pa. Yes you would fain make the world believe that your new-devised Church-Government and every thing you speak and do is Scripture and according to the Spirit and truth and to hear you cry up your Orders and outward circumstances of divine Service one would think you had found Scriptural or spiritual Ceremonies But when all comes to all it is only this that you make Religion and Godliness to consist in rejecting that decent and instructing Order in Divine VVorship which the Primitive Church used and transmitted to us for to follow your irreverent and unseemly manner of worshipping God according to your own minds But that you also have done enough to make Religion ridiculous and fabulous too is easie to be seen by what I have said and shall say further the many intolerabiles ineptias you preached in your best-studied Sermons before your Parliament and printed afterwards as being excellent Discourses are sufficient proofs that your grave out-sides are inwardly full of emptiness or something else and I protest nothing can fully represent how ridiculous you have made the Publick Offices of Religion as being an eye-witness of it in your Private Meetings And had you not besotted your people by making them believe that what others do is all Popish and Antichristian but what you do your selves is Scripture and Gods Ordinance in purity they would hiss you out of your Desks or at least leave you there alone to enjoy your extravagant humours I leave it as a conclusion to be drawn from our whole Discourse when it is ended that you have made Religion ridiculous or rather that yours is a mock-Religion consisting altogether as to the exterior of it in new-made Prayers and Sermons spoken with a certain piteous tone and some affected faces and paroxisms of Zeal such as Mr. Cheynel was in when he told the Parliament 1646. p. 4. I arrest you this day at the Suit of the great Jehovah for a Debt of ten thousand talents nay millions of millions and over and above of High Treason against the three Persons of the ever-blessed Trinity and then he was in a Trance pag. 24. Oh saith he I feel I bless God I feel my self transported even beyond my self with raptures and extasies of love I could tell you of Christ-concerning-points and Soul-concerning-points of Parliament-repentance and Sacrament-repentance and Bed-repentance and Shop-repentance and many such new-coined phrases which are none of the least part of the powerfulness of preaching And I could tell you of a receipt which is as the extract of a Book called Parliament-Physick for a sick Nation Licensed by Mr. J. Cranford which makes a mock-Physick or Divinity of all Evangelick and moral Vertues 1644. p. 112. A great deal of fopperies and futilities as you charge us with might be pickt out of the Sermons as you then printed and I doubt not but the Prayers were much after the same sort had they come out in print and if my Notes deceive me not what you preach now is not much better but I will not say any thing except what I have under your hands But this needs not be prosecuted directly any further Pr. What of all this These be personal failings I don't know how we are come insensibly to talk of things that are meerly practical whereas we was to speak of Doctrinal points I 'll give you but two or three instances more of the wide difference that is betwixt us and then let all the world be judge how impertinent you have been in charging Popery upon us And first you make outward splendor and prosperity to be a mark of the true Church whereas we teach according to Divine and Humane Histories that the Church hath her wanes as well as her fulness that sometimes she is fain to flee into the wilderness and that her Glory may be eclipsed without she doth cease to be the true and only Spouse of Christ Pa. Well I hope you love us never the worse for that agreement as you see is betwixt us in practical points for those be the most important But as for what you mentioned last I must confess that after the Kings and the Churches return to their right you taught E. Calamy 1662. p. 10. 14 That the Ark of God was in great danger and very near to be lost gray hairs saith Mr. Calamy are upon the Gospel I say not that the Gospel is dying but that it hath gray hairs I dare challenge any Scholar to shew me an example of any Nation that hath enjoyed the Gospel for an hundred years together now that gray hairs is to an hundred years is no wonder Well gray hairs are here and there and yet no man lays it to heart But then 't is to be observed that your Principles and Doctrines do change according to your condition Th. Good Ph. Nye Sy. Symp. Jer. Bur. W. Bridge p. 10. according as five of your Brethren told us in their Apology to the Parliament This principle we carried along with us not to make our present judgment and practice a binding Law to our selves for the future For in the days of your Power you then followed God and Providence every prosperous success of yours was a mark that yours was Gods Cause and you his beloved ones Behold God in the Mount cries Mr. Vicars at every advantage you had over the Kings party in his Jehovah-Jireh yea and your prosperity was a mark that you were destroying Antichrist Tho. Palmer in that Sermon 1644. dedicated to the Earl of Essex Epist Dedicat hath these brave expressions God hath put you in his own place God hath grac'd you with his own Name Lord of Hosts General of Armies God hath committed to your care what is most precious to himself precious Gospel precious Ordinances a precious Parliament a precious people God hath called forth your Excellency as a choice Worthy to be his General and the Champion of Jesus Christ to fight the great and last battel with Antichrist in this your native Kingdom So Mr. Caryl in a Thanksgiving Sermon for a Victory of yours Jos Caryl 1644. Divine Providence is a leading Cloud to this day it is ill to out-run Providence and it is as bad not to follow it Many things that I have said before will clear it enough that you made your good success and prosperity an argument
of your being Gods Church and people and I shall say more to it anon I only add now that as it is observ'd that where Religion hath been loosest there Fortune hath been most worshipped so when you had broken all natural and religious bonds you made use of the prosperous events of your enterprizes to justifie the lawfulness of them Pr. Well I see you 'll make hard shift but you 'll have something to say But can you find that we attribute to the Sacraments the vertue of working by their own efficacy the grace they signifie which you call opus operatum don 't we rather teach that nothing but Gods Grace can work any good in us and that outward means are useless without it Pa. Yes I do suppose the Sacraments are of no great account amongst you whatever is not of your own appointment is of little use or profitableness though ordained by the first Rulers of the Christian Church or by Christ himself But I could tell you of two or three things of your own devising of as great force and efficacy as any of our Sacraments that is your Covenant your powerful Preaching and your extemporary Prayers of the first I have spoken enough already how you made it a most precious and soul-saving Ordinance and equalled it at least to the Covenants God hath been pleased to make with Mankind wherefore it was to be taken standing uncovered and one hand bare and lifted up which is more of honour and reverence than you afford to the blessed Sacrament of the Body and Bloud of Christ which you receive fitting upon your tails or to any other part of Divine Worship If any one will see more of it let him read Thomas Mokett's Sermons on that subject printed 1642. That your Preaching is likewise very powerful I have evinc'd before in that you call it the Gospel the Word of God and make it in a manner equal to Scripture as proceeding from the same Spirit as Mr. Marshal told the Parliament at a Thanksgiving-Sermon for some good success of yours S. Marshal 1643. p. 3. I should send you home presently and command all of you not to weep to day but to eat the fat and drink the sweet but that I have first some banquetting stuff for your souls such as God hath brought to my hand sure they might make a very soul-refreshing meal on what God himself had prepared Mr. Palmer also pag. 27. How few come prepared to the Ordinances your preaching and Praying Who is it that considers the weightiness of the business he is about that he is now about a soul-saving or a soul-destroying work And accordingly in your Catechising your Converts if they be aged the grand question is When and at what time they were converted for your Preaching works Conversion even as Strong-drink works Madness When you have taught malicious or ignorant people to rail at the Church and to hate it and those that side with it then the powerful Ordinance of Preaching hath done the feat and the man is converted even as the weak-brain fellow that hath lost his reason by too much drinking As for your Praying being it is by the Spirit no wonder if it works strangely Mr. Vavasor Powel a holy man The History of his Life 1671. p. 16. and well worth to be credited though somewhat more Fanatick than you for having a most authentick Testimony and Approbation of fourteen of the chiefest Divines in the Assembly did by his Prayers cure one Mrs. p 18. Watkins of the Parish of Laningg in the County of Brecknock who for two years together had kept her bed and one Elizabeth Morris of New Radnorth who was troubled with the Falling-sickness and Convulsion-Fits and did once in a wet Harvest stop a most fierce rain p. 19. in seeking the Lord and begging for fair weather This will not seem strange if we consider what one of you said That God had kindled the fervent fire of Supplication in your hearts Jehovah-Jireh p. 31. Oh how did the Lord-before and ever since this Parliament began stir up and inflame the fire of supplicating faith or faithful supplication and fervent zeal in private humiliation to seek the Lord in the face of Christ for mercy and reconcilement to our poor Land And then how could that fire that came from the Lord do less than consume and devour every thing that stood in its way As Dr. Owen said to the House of Commons Joh. Owen 1659. p. 14. The Adversaries openly confest That there was nothing left for them to overcome or to overcome them but the Prayers of the Fanatick Crew And as Mr. Coleman said to the same Auditory We prayed at Nazeby 1645. p. â—â— 17 they plotted see what end the Lord hath made come and behold the works of the Lord. And at Langport and Bridgewater they could not stand for God was against them We prayed we fought Th. Good 1â—â—â— p. â—â— we conquered certainly the power of Prayers is destructive And Mr. Goodwin God hath given to those his Saints the Rebels a Commission to set up and pull down by their Prayers and Intercessions Whence by the way might be gathered that you have some kindness for us being you pull'd none down but the Church of England But possibly the efficacy of your Prayers did not so much as the reach of your Piques and Muskets However you see here is opus operatum with a vengeance all the difference is that our Sacraments are of Christs Institution and work Grace only whereas your powerful Ordinances are of your own devising and besides Grace can work destruction Pr. And can you find this one thing more about the Sacraments that we take the Cup away from the people as is the order of your Church positively against an express Command of Christ who said Drink ye all of this Sure you won't say we are guilty of dispensing with such an express Injunction of Christ as you do in this case Pa. No you never took the blessed Cup from the people but you went very near to take away from them the sacred Bread and all You know how seldom and in how few places that holy Sacrament was administred in your reforming times and you know how little regarded still by many of your party since you could preach and pray by the Spirit And yet we are in good hopes that you 'll comply with us in this too for that in another case you can dispense with as absolute a command of Christ that is concerning the Lords Prayer of which he commanded When you pray say Our Father c. Luk. 11.2 But your wisdom hath found it out that 't was enough to say the sense of that Prayer without repeating the very words and then if you should use it the people might be brought to believe that a set Form of Prayers is lawful according to so great an example which might be a great prejudice to your