you complaine I know you may haue more bookes if you would haue such as are best for you to read But you would haue such as might nourish your humor from reading of the which they who restraine you are your friendes If a man do surfet of varietie of dishes the Phisicion doth well to dyet him with one wholsome kinde of meat Perhaps it were better for some of vs who read all sortes that we were tyed to that alone suffred part of your restraint We are troubled about many things but one thing is needfull Many please the fansie better but one doth profit more the minde He was a wise preacher who said The reading of many bookes is a wearinesse vnto the flesh and therefore exhorted men to take instruction by the wordes of trueth the wordes of the wise which are giuen by one pastor euen by Iesus Christ whose spirit did speake in the Prophets and Apostles and taught his Church the trueth by them Howbeit for as much as God hath giuen giftes to men pastours and teachers whose labour might helpe vs to vnderstand the words of that one pastor we do receaue thankfully the monuments of their labour left in wryting to the Church which they were set to builde eyther seuerall as the Doctors or assembled as the Councels we do gladly read them as Pastors of the Church Yet so that we put a difference betwene them and that one Pastor For God did giue him the spirite not by measure the rest had a measure of grace and knowledge through him Wherfore if to supply your whatsoeuer wants you would haue the bookes of Doctors and Councels to vse them as helps for the better vnderstanding of the booke of Christ your wants shal be supplyed you shall not need to feare disaduantage in this respect For M. Secretarie hath taken order that you shall haue what bookes you will vnlesse you will such as cannot be gotten Hart. The bookes that I would haue are principally in déed the Fathers and the Councels which all do make for vs as do the scriptures also But for my direction to finde out their places in all poyntes of controuersie which I can neither remember redily nor dare to trust my selfe in them I would haue our writers which in the seuerall poyntes whereof they treate haue cited them and buyld themselues vpon them In the question of the Church and the supremacie Doctor Stapleton of the Sacraments and sacrifice of the Masse Doctor Allen of the worshipping of Sayntes and Images Doctor Harpsfield whose bookes were set forth by Alan Cope beare his name as certaine letters in them shew Likewise for the rest of the pointes that lie in controuersie them who in particular haue best written of them for them al in generall S. Thomas of Aquine Father Roberts Dictates and chiefly the confession that Torrensis an other father of the societie of Iesus hath gathered out of S. Augustine which booke we set the more by because of al the Fathers S. Augustine is the chéefest as well in our as your iudgement and his doctrine is the common doctrine of the Fathers whose consent is the rule whereby controuersies should be ended Rainoldes These you shall haue God willing and if you will Canisius too because he is so full of textes of Scriptures and Fathers and many doe estéeme him highly But this I must request you to looke on the originalles of Scriptures Councels Fathers which they doe alleadge For they doe perswade you that all doe make for you but they abuse you in it They borrow some gold out of the Lordes treasure house and wine out of the Doctors presses but they are deceitful workmen they do corrupt their golde with drosse their wine with worse then water Hart. You shall finde it harder to conuince them of it then to charge them with it Rainoldes And you shall finde it harder to make proofe of halfe then to make claime of all Yet you shall see both youre claime of all the Scriptures and Fathers to bee more confidente then iust and my reproofe of your wryters for theyr corrupting and forging of them as plainly prooued as vttered if you haue eyes to see God lighten your eyes that you may see open your eares that you may heare and geue you both a softe hart and vnderstanding minde that you may be able wisely to discerne and gladly to embrace the trueth when you shall heare it Hart. I trust I shall be able alwayes both to see and to followe the trueth But I am perswaded you will be neuer able to shew that that is the trueth which your Church professeth As by our conference I hope it shal be manifest Rainoldes UUill you then to lay the ground of our conference let me know the causes why you separate your selfe and refuse to communicate with the Church of England in prayers and religion Hart. The causes are not many They may be al comprysed in one Your Church is no Church You are not members of the Church Rainoldes How proue you that Hart. By this argument The Church is a companie of Christian men professing one faith vnder one head You professe not one faith vnder one head Therefore you are not of the Church Rainoldes What is that one faith Hart. The catholike faith Rainoldes Who is that one head Hart. The Bishop of Rome Rainoldes Then both the propositions of which you frame your argument are in part faultie The first in that you say the church is a companie of Christian men vnder one head The second in that you charge vs of the church of England that wee professe not one faith For we do professe that one faith the catholike faith But we deny that the church is bound to be subiect to that one head the bishop of Rome Hart. I will proue the pointes of both my propositions the which you haue denied First that the church must be subiect to the Bishop of Rome as to her head Next that the faith which you professe in England is not the catholike faith Rainoldes You will say somewhat for them but you will neuer proue them Hart. Let the church iudge For the first thus I proue it S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles Therefore the Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops If of Bishops then by consequent of the dioceses subiect to them If of all their dioceses then of the whole church The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of the whole church of Christ. Rainoldes S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops I had thought that Christ our Sauiour both was and is the head as of the whole church so of Apostles of Bishops of all the members of it For the church is his
God by inspiration and is the word of God Wherefore if you will take the golde of Vincentius you must grant that scripture alone is sufficient to trie the truth from errour and to mainteine the Catholike faith against heresie Hart. You doo not deale well in misreporting so the words of Vincentius For he setteth downe two meanes by the which we must fense our faith against the guiles of heretikes eschue their snares first by the authoritie saith he of the scripture then by the tradition of the catholike Church You leaue out altogither that which he saith of tradition and handle him in such sort as though he had spoken for the scripture onely Rainoldes It is not your purpose I hope to beguile mée by the colour of his wordes It may be that your selfe are beguiled in them For he by the traditiō of the catholike church meant the true and right exposition of the scripture made by faithfull pastors and teachers of the church as his owne words immediately shew And this I made mention of in that I said that scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes if it be taken in the right sense the catholike sense hee calleth it You séeme to imagine that he meant by the worde tradition vnwritten verities as they haue bin termed or as you terme them now traditions which the Trent-Councell dooth account as much of as of scriptures and coupleth them togither to make a sufficient perfit rule of truth as though that onely scriptures were insufficient for it Which errour was so far from the minde of Vincentius that he saith expresly that he dooth not adde the traditiō of the Church to the authoritie of the scriptures as though that the scriptures were not thēselues alone sufficient for all thinges yea more then sufficient but to shew that because heretikes doo wrest and misse-expound the scriptures therefore we must learne their right sense and meaning deliuered to the godly by the ministery of the Church In which consideration as S. Paule writeth that he did deliuer according to the scriptures the things which he taught and therevpon nameth his doctrine traditions as you would say things deliuered so Vincentius mentioneth both the Churches tradition to note the ministerie of the Church deliuering the sense of scriptures and the Churches traditions to signifie the rules of faith according whereunto the scriptures are expounded as I haue shewed by scriptures Wherefore the wordes that your Vincentius speaketh touching the tradition and traditions of the Church do ioine hands with that which I did deliuer of the truth in pointes of faith to be tried by the scripture only Hart. You may not cary so the wordes of Vincentius away in a cloude For though he may séeme to haue meant in generall by the tradition of the Church the expounding of scriptures according to the rule of their right and Catholike sense which the Pastors of the Church deliuer yet comming to particulars he frameth that rule not out of the scriptures but out of the opinions which the Church holdeth in matters of religion For he asketh him selfe when heretikes pretend scriptures what shall the Catholikes doo How shall they discerne the truth from falshood in the scriptures Whereto he maketh answere that they must take the scriptures in the sense of the Church and therein they must folow vniuersalitie antiquitie consent By the which thréefold meanes to trie the truth he instructeth vs that we must hold that which the church of our time doth hold through all the world vniuersally If a part of Christendome diuide and cut it selfe from the faith of the whole then are we bound to folow the whole and not the part If the whole in our time be stained with any error then must we haue respect to the former time and cleaue to antiquitie If all in antiquity agreed not about it then looke too consent as what a generalll Councell did decree therof or if no such decree be what all the Fathers thought or if not all what the most euen they who continued in the faith and felowship of the Catholike Church And whatsoeuer we find that not one or two but all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually let vs be assured that we must hold also that without all doubt Thus Vincentius sheweth how he would haue the truth to be tried by the church if the church be soūd by the vniuersalitie of our own time if that be corrupt by the antiquitie of the former time if that be at variance by the consent of all or most of the Fathers Wherfore if you will stand vnto his iudgement to which you giue countenance as though you liked it you must not call the tryall of truth in religion to the scriptures onely but to the consent of the Fathers rather Rainoldes I liked his iudgement in the generall point touching the sufficiencie and perfitnes of scriptures which I know you like not though you make greater semblaunce of liking him then I. If in the particulars I mislike somewhat let the blame be laid vpon the blame-worthy not me who stand to that which he hath spoken well but him who falleth from it For laying his foundation as it were on a rocke he buildeth vp his house beside it on the sand That scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes so that it be taken in the right sense expounded by the rules of the Catholike faith this hath hée well auouched as on the rocke of Gods word But that the rules of faith and sense of the scripture must be tried and iudged by the consent antiquitie and vniuersalitie of the Church this hath he added not so well as on the sand of mens opinions The difference of the pointes may be perceiued by S. Austin who ioining in the former of them with Vincentius doth leaue him in the later For Austin as he setteth the ground of religion in the right sense and Catholike meaning of the scripture so teacheth he that this must be knowne and tried by the scripture it selfe the infallible rule of truth not by the fickle minds of mē And to haue taught hereof as Austin doth it had agreed best with the foundation of Vincentius which maketh the rule of scriptures alone sufficient for all thinges But because the weaker and ruder sort of Christians haue not skill to know the right exposition of scripture from the wrong therefore he tempering him selfe to their infirmitie doth giue them outward sensible markes to know it by Wherein he dealeth with them as if a Philosopher hauing saide that a man is areasonable creature should because his scholers cannot discerne of reason whereof the shew is such in many brute beastes that some haue thought them reasonable describe him more plainely by outward markes and accidents as namely that he hath two feete and no
say this or that against a man you must proue it Rainoldes So I minde to doo And that by demonstration out of the saâ—e booke of Genebrard himselfe in which he â—indeth this faute with the Centurie-writers For about what yeare of Christ did Isidore dye How doth Genebrard recken Hart. In the yeare six hundred thirtie and seuen as he proueth out of Vasaeus Rainoldes When was the generall Councell of Constantinople vnder Agatho kept What saith he of that Hart. In the yeare six hundred foure score and one or two or there about Rainoldes Then Isidore was dead aboue fourtie yeares before that generall Councell Hart. He was but what of that Rainoldes Of that it doth folow that the preface writen in Isidores name and set before the Councels to purchase credit to those epistles is a counterfeit and not Isidores For in that preface there is mention made of the generall Councell of Constantinople held against Bishop Macarius and Stephanus in the time of Pope Agatho Constantine the Emperour Which séeing it was held aboue fourtie yeares after Isidore was dead by Genebrards owne confession by his owne confession Isidore could not tell the foure score Bishops of it And so the foure score Bishops which Turrian hath found out in one Isidore are dissolued all into one counterfeit abusing both the name of Isidore and foure score Bishops Hart. Igmarus who was Archbishop of Rhemes in the time of Lewes sonne to Charles about seuen hundred yeares since did thinke that worke to be S. Isidores and so he citeth it Rainoldes Why mention you that Are you disposed to proue that some haue béene deceiued and thought him Isidore who was not Hart. No But to proue that the worke is Isidores as Father Turrian doth by the testimonie of Igmarus Rainoldes Ignarus can not proue that He must be content to be deceiued in some what as well as his ancestors For it is too cléere by the Councels them selues that Isidore did dye about the time that we agréed of and therefore no helpe but it must be an other who wrote that preface in his name Which maketh me so much the more to suspect that the epistles are counterfeit sith I finde that a Father was counterfeited to get them credit And sure it is likely that about the time of Charles the great when the westerne Churches did commonly-fetch bookes from the Roman librarie some groome of the Popes that had an eye to the almes-box conueied this pamphlet in amongst them and well meaning men in France and other countryes receyued it as a worthie worke compiled by S. Isidore and coming from the See Apostolike But say what may be saide for the silence of olde witnesses which is vrged and iustly as a probable coniecture that those epistles were not extant in their dayes the matters that are handled and debated in them the scriptures alleaged the stories recorded the ceremonies mentioned the times and dates assigned are not coniectures probable but most certaine proofes that they could not be writen by those ancient Bishops of Rome whose names they beare There is a booke entitled to the Poet Ouid touching an olde woman haue you euer séene it Hart. What is that to the purpose Doth he speake of the Popes epistles Rainoldes No but their epistles are like to that booke in sundrie respectes It is ancient it was printed aboue a hundred yeares ago And he who set it foorth saith that Ouid wrote it in his old age and willed it to be laide vp in his graue with him in the which graue it was found at length by the inhabitants of the countrey who sent it to Constantinople and the Emperour gaue it to Leo his principal notarie who did publish it A smooth tale to make men beleeue that it is Ouids Of whom though it sauour no more then these epistles of the Bishops of Rome yet if your Diuines could finde some antike verse there that were an euidence for the Popes supremacie I sée my former reasons would not disswade you from beléeuing but Ouid wrote the booke For to the barbarousnes and basenes of the Latin and style if I should vrge it you might answere that Ouid wrote so for two causes that he might not séeme to be vaine gloriously giuen and that his repentance might bee knowne euen to the simplest To the silence of witnesses that no man maketh mention of it amongst his workes you might answere that it lay hidden in his graue And this you might answere with greater shew of likelyhood then that the Popes epistles lay hidden in the Popes librarie But vnto the matters of which the booke intreateth and thinges that it discourseth on no shadow of defense can be made with any reason For it speaketh in the praise of the virgin Marie that God shall giue her to be our mediatresse and shall assumpt her into heauen and place her in a throne with him yea the autour prayeth to her Which are pointes of doctrine that were not heard of I trow in Ouids time Neither is it likely that Ouid was so well read in the scriptures that he could cite the law of Moses and speake of Iacob and Esau and allude to Salomon in Ecclesiastes Euen so for those epistles of the Bishops of Rome although you haue gloses to shift of other reasons yet I am perswaded that you can lay no colour on the contents and substance of them For the scriptures are so alleaged and such pointes are taught about the gouernment of the Church about religion about rites about stories ecclesiasticall that it is not possible they should be writen by those Bishops Hart. Why Doo you thinke it as vnlikely a matter that they should alleage the scriptures as that Ouid should Rainoldes Nay I doo thinke it or rather I doo know it to be more vnlikely that they should so alleage the scriptures as they doo then that Ouid should allude to Salomon or cite Moses For the bookes of Moses perhaps of Salomon too were translated into Gréeke by the Seuentie interpreters many a yeare before Ouid and he might haue read them But your common Latin translation of the olde testament made a great part of it by S. Ierom out of the Hebrewe whence it is called S. Ieroms could not be séene by Anacletus and other auncient Bishops of Rome For they were deceased before he was borne And yet all their epistles doo alleage the scriptures after that translation An euident token that the writer of them did liue after S. Ierom yea a great while after him as may bee déemed probably For the common Latin translation which the ancient Latin Fathers vsed was made out of the Gréeke of the Seuentie interpreters Tertullian Cyprian Hilarie Ambrose and other of the same ages shew it in all their writings Nether was that olde translation forsaken straight waies as soone as Ierom had set forth his
THE SVMME OF THE CONFERENCE BETWENE IOHN RAINOLDES AND IOHN HART TOVCHING THE HEAD AND THE FAITH OF THE CHVRCH Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures the ministerie of the Church the function of Priesthood the sacrifice of the Masse with other controuersies of religion but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouerment opened in the branches of Christes supreme soueraintie of Peters pretended the Popes vsurped the Princes lawfull Supremacie Penned by Iohn Rainoldes according to the notes set downe in writing by them both perused by Iohn Hart and after things supplied altered as he thought good allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them Whereto is annexed a Treatise intitled SIX CONCLVSIONS TOVCHING THE HOLIE SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH writen by Iohn Rainoldes With a defense of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein 1. Ioh. 4.1 Deerely beloued beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they be of God for many false Prophets are gone out into the world Londini impensis Geor. Bishop 1584 TO THE RIGHT Honorable the Lord Robert Dudley Earle of Leicester one of her Maiesties priuie Councell and Chauncellour of the Vniuersitie of Oxford grace and peace be multiplied THe beginning of Schooles and Vniuersities right Honorable in the Church of God doth shew that they were planted to bee nurseries of Prophets who being instructed in the truth of his word might deliuer it to men and lighten as starres the darkenesse of the world with the beames of it But it hath come to passe by deuises of the dragon whose taile drew the third part of the starres of heauen cast them to the earth that they haue bene turned into seminaries of false Prophets to maintaine errours and the power of darkenesse against the light and truth of Christ. The primitiue Church had experience hereof in them of the Synagogue of Libertines and Cyrenians who disputed with Steuen A lesson for the faithfull in the ages to folow that they should not thinke it strange or be dismayed if Schooles Vniuersities of men professing wisedome were possessed of folie and sought to peruert the straight wayes of the Lord. The consideration whereof as it was needefull for our predecessours when Rabbines of the Iewes Philosophers of the HeatheÌ„s Sorbonists amoÌ„g Christians being seduced themselues seduced others so haue the Seminaries of our English students erected by the Pope of late at Rome and Rhemes made it needeful also for vs at this day The more how much the nerer their dealings do come to those of the Synagogue of Libertines Cyrenians For as they defended the Iewish opinions receiued by tradition from their Fathers so do the Seminaries the Popish superstitions As they did pretend the care of religion of Moses and God the law the Temple so do the Seminaries of the Catholike faith the Scriptures and the Church As the meanes they vsed were sclanders of Steuen that he spake blasphemous wordes against the holy place and the law so do the Seminaries charge vs with reuolting from the holy Church and corrupting the Scriptures I am not worthie to be compared with the least of the seruants of God who liued at that time in which he powred the giftes of his holy spirit from heauen so aboundantly Howbeit as it pleased him to rayse Steuen to dispute with some of the Iewish Synagogue so hath he vouchsafed me of this fauour that I should be called to conferre with certaine of the Popish Seminaries Of whom one contented to proceede farther therin then the rest by writing not by word onely hath giuen occasion ofthis which here I publish Wherein how indifferently he hath bene dealt with himselfe hath declared My conscience for mine owne part beareth me witnesse that I haue endeuored to defend the cause of the same truth with the same purpose by the same principles grouÌ„ds that SteueÌ„ did Wishing from my hart if so it please God that it may preuaile more with English Papists then Steuens speech did with the Iewish Priests But ready by his grace to endure their spite ifthey hate me for telling them the truth as the Iewes did him Now sith Luke who penned the story of Steuen sent it to Theophilus most noble Theophilus I haue bene the bolder to present my conference vnto you right Honorable aduanced in state to be of the most noble in minde a Theophilus and louer of the truth Your benefites both publikely to our Vniuersitie in maintenance of our priuileges priuately to me ward a member thereof haue bound me to offer this testificatâ—on of a thankefull minde And sith it hath bene I know a greefe vnto you that the Popish Synagogue hath drawne proselytes thence I thought it most meete that the labours spent with one so withdrawne and printed to reclaime them who are gon if may bee or at least to stay them who are not gon should bring him the salue whom the sore had touched neerest Which moueth me withall to beseech your Honour that as you haue begoon so you will go forward in being carefull for our nurserie that they who haue the charge of husbanding it may fense it and dresse it faithfully and wisely that neither the wild boare of the forest nor other vermin may anoy it that the fruites of the trees therof may serue for meate the leaues for medicine through waters running out of the sanctuarie and the tree of life may grow in the middest of it as in the garden of Eden planted by the Lord. So shall you leaue a most worthie monument of a noble Theophilus the reward whereof shall folow from God who will render to euery man according to his workes the remeÌ„brance shall rest in the Christian Church and common wealth ofEngland to your eternall praise throughout all posteritie The Lord of his mercie blesse you with continuall increase of the graces of his holy spirite specially of that which hath the promise of this life and of the life to come to your endlesse comfort through Iesu Christ the Lord of life At London the eighteenth of Iuly 1584. Your Honours in Christ at commaundement Iohn Rainoldes Iohn Hart to the indifferent Reader BEhold gentle Reader the conference which thou hast so long looked for betweene M. Rainoldes and me at length ended as also it had beene more then twelue monethes since had not my selfe hindred the coÌ„ming of it foorth when it was nigh readie to be deliuered to the Printer For it is now aboue two yeares ago that the right honorable Syr Francis Walsingham as he had shewed me great fauour from the time that I was apprehended in graunting me libertie of conference at home first in mine owne countrie and afterwarde in prison so when the sentence of death was past vpon me hee ceased not still to offer me the
the shew of wordes UUherefore it was néedfull sith we séeke herein to finde out Christes will that first we agreed what way the right sense of the scripture may be knowne UUhich séeing you would haue me to fetch from the Pope and I haue no lust to go vnto Rome nor thinke it lodgeth in the Vatican so that by this way no agréement can be made or ende of controuersie hoped for I will take a shorter and a surer way confessed by vs both to be a good way whereby the right sense of the scripture may be found and so the will of Christ be knowne Hart. UUhat way may that be Rainoldes To learne of Christ him selfe the meaning of his word and let his spirit teach it that is to expound the scripture by the scripture A golden rule to know and try the truth from errour prescribed by the Lord and practised by his seruants for the building of his church from age to age through all posteritie For the holie Ghost exhorting the Iewes to compare the darker light of the Prophetes with the cléerer of the Apostles that the day-brigtnesse of the Sonne of righteousnes may shine in their hartes saith that no prophecy of Scripture is of a mans owne interpretation because in the prophecie that is the scripture of the Prophetes they spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost not as the will of man did fansie UUhich reason sith it implieth as the Prophetes so the Apostles and it is true in them all the holie men of God spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost it followeth that all the scripture ought to be expounded by God because it is inspired of God as natures light hath taught that he who made the law should interpret the law This rule commended to vs by the prescript of God and as it were sanctified by the Leuites practise in the olde Testament and the Apostles in the new the godlie auncient Pastors and Doctors of the church haue followed in their preaching their writing their deciding of controuersies in Councels UUherefore if you desire in déede the churches exposition and would so faine finde it you must go this way this is the churches way that is the churches sense to which this way dooth bring you For S. Austin whose doctrine your selfe doo acknowledge to be grounded on the lawes the maners the iudgementes of all the catholike church whom you call a witnesse of the sincere truth and catholike religion such a witnesse as no exception can be made against who assureth you as you say not onely of his owne but also of the common the constant faith and confession of the ancient Fathers and the Apostolike church this S. Austin hath written foure bookes of Christian doctrine wherein he purposely entreateth how men should vnderstand the Scripture and expound it The summe of all his treatise doth aime at this marke which I haue pointed too that the meaning of the Scripture must be learned out of the Scripture by the consideration of thinges and wordes in it that the ende whereto the matter whereof it is all writen be marked in generall and all be vnderstood according to that end and matter that al be read ouer ouer those things chiefly noted which are set downe plainly both precepts of life and rules of beliefe because that all things which concerne beliefe and life are plainly written in it that obscure darke speeches be lightned and opened by the plaine and manifest that to remoue the doubt of vncertaine sentences the cleere and certaine be followed that recourse be had vnto the Greeke and Hebrue copies to cleare out of the fountaines if the translation be muddie that doubtfull places bee expounded by the rule of faith which we are taught out of the plainer places of the scripture that all the circumstances of the text bee weighed what goeth before what commeth after the maner how the cause why the men to whom the time when euery thing is saide to be short that still wee seeke to know the will and meaning of the Authour by whom the holie Ghost hath spoken if we finde it not yet giue such a sense as agreeth with the right faith approued by some other place of scripture if a sense be giuen the vncertaintie wherof cannot bee discussed by certaine and sure testimonies of scripture it might be proued by reason but this custome is dangerous the safer way far is to walke by the scripture the which being shadowed with darke and borowed words when we mind to search let either that come out of it which hath no doubt and controuersie or if it haue doubt let it be determined by the same scripture through witnesses to be found vsed thence wheresoeuer that so to conclude all places of the scriptures be expounded by the scriptures the which are called Canonical as being the Canon that is to say the rule of godlines and faith Thus you sée the way the way of wisedome and knowledge which Christ hath prescribed the church hath receiued S. Austin hath declared both by his preceptes and his practise both in this treatise and in others agréeably to the iudgement of the auncient Fathers Which way sith it is lyked both by vs and you though not so much followed of you as of vs I wish that the woorthinesse thereof might perswade you to practise it your selfe but it must enforce you at least to allow it Hart. I graunt it neither can nor ought to be denyed that euery one of those things and specially if they be ioined all togither doo helpe very much to vnderstand the scriptures rightly But yet they are not so sure and certaine meanes as some other are which we preferre before them Neither do they helpe alwaies nay sometimes they do hurt rather and deceiue greatlie such as expound the Scripture after them This is not onelye said but also proued at large out of the Doctors and Fathers by that worthie man of great wit and iudgement our countriman M. Stapleton Doctor of Diuinitie the Kinges Professor of controuersies in the vniuersitie of Doway Of whose most wholesome worke entitled A methodicall demonstration of doctrinall principles of the faith one booke is wholly spent to shew the meanes way and order how to make authenticall interpretation of the Scriptures In the which hee layeth this for a ground that the Scripture cannot be rightly vnderstood but by the rule of faith Whereupon he condemneth the Protestantes opinion that the sense of Scriptures must be fetched out of the Scriptures Which errour of yours to ouerthrow the more fully he deliuereth foure meanes of expounding the Scriptures the first very certaine and sure the rule of faith the next no lesse certaine the practise of the church the third at least probable the consent of the Fathers the last most
may séee by Eli. Rainoldes But this was verie rare extraordinarie Now the Law which God prescribed in Deuteronomie by his seruant Moses did touch the common state and ordinarie gouernment of the people of Israel For both it is generall without limitation of persons or times as to be kept still for the ending of their controuersies not onely in the dayes of Eli and it is written that when king Iosaphat restored the state decayed in Ierusalem hee set of the Leuites and the Priestes and of the chiefe of the families of Israell for the iudgements of the Lorde and for controuersies Which to haue béene done in respect of that law it appeareth by the wordes that he spake vnto them Whatsoeuer controuersie shall come vnto you from your brethren who dwell in their cities betweene blood and blood betweene law and precept statutes and iudgements doo ye admonish them that they offend not against the Lord. Wherefore séeing that the law in Deuteronomie was made to establish a highest court of iudgement in which all harder causes ecclesiasticall and ciuil should be determined without appeale farther the reason and the practise of the law do shew that in respect of the two kinds of causes there were ordained two sortes of men to heare them ecclesiasticall and ciuill the ciuill meant by the iudge the ecclesiasticall by the Priest Who because they were distinct as in office so in person too ordinarily it followeth thereof that the Priest was not meant by the iudge Hart. Yet the Glosse expounding that place of Deuteronomie doth say that by the iudge is meant the high Priest euen as I say Rainoldes But Lyra and Caietan as worthie men as they who compiled the Glosse if you will heare men doo say that by the iudge is meant the ciuill magistrate euen as I say Which sense of the place is so plaine certaine that Carolus Sigonius the Popes owne historian in a booke which lately he set foorth at Bononia with approbation of the Bishoppe and holy Inquisition and dedicated to Pope Gregory the thirtéenth affirmeth that the king is meant by the iudge in that place of Deuteronomie It may be M. Hart that sith you were beyond-sea they haue bethought them selues and seeing that your Glosse doth goe against the text they will no longer stand vnto it Indéede if the supremacie belong to the iudge the Prince hath greater right thereto then the Pope For it is certaine as I haue declared by circumstances of the scripture that the Priest was not meant by the iudge Hart. It skilleth not to my purpose whether he were or no. It sufficeth me that he who refuseth to obey the Priest must die by the law Which is enough to proue the soueraintie of one Priest Rainoldes Not so For the name of Priest in this law doth signifie the Priestes Which is cléere by reason that the punishment of the transgressor hath a relation to the law and the law doth will men to go to the Priests the Priestes it saith as of many not as of one the hie Priest Wherefore in giuing sentence of death against him who disobeieth the Priest it meaneth the Priestes according to a kind of spéech wherin the whole is noted by the part As afterward likewise entreating of the duetie and right of the Priestes it noteth them in generall by name of the Priest Hart. But here vpon mention of the Priest it foloweth who doth serue the Lord thy God By the which title the hie Priest may séeme to haue béene namely noted and seuered from the rest Rainoldes He might so were it not that the same title is also giuen afterward to Priestes generally yea where this matter is touched againe of purpose the Lord thy God hath chosen the Priestes the sonnes of Leui to serue him and to blesse in the name of the Lorde and by their word shall euery controuersie and euery plague be tried Hart. Yet you will graunt I trust that amongst the Priestes there was one chiefe yea euen in this matter of highest iudgement in doubtfull causes Which in the same place of Scripture that you brought to expound this is shewed by king Iosaphat saying vnto them to whom that iudgement was committed Amarias the Priest shall be the chiefe ouer you in matters of the Lord. Rainoldes This I will graunt you But you must graunt me also that looke what is giuen to him amongst the Priestes in matters of the Lord that is in ecclesiastical the same amongst the iudges is giuen to Zebadias in matters of the king that is in ciuil causes For Iosaphat doth say as well the one as the other So that to come now to the later point of your lame similitude if Christians must haue a soueraine Bishop ouer all because the Iewes had one chiefe Priest then Christians must haue a soueraine Prince ouer all because the Iewes had one chiefe iudge And as all harder causes at least of religion must be referred to the Pope so all of ciuill matters must be referred to the Emperour And as amongst the Iewes the Priest and iudge were resident in the place which the Lord had chosen so the Pope and the Emperour must both abide in Rome Which Pope Paule the third did feare that Emperour Charles the fifth would haue done But he sent for the French men to kéepe him out If Gregorie that now is Pope be better minded and will resigne his ciuill State vnto the Emperour with the Palace of Vaticane and Castell of Saint Angelo then may the reason which you ground vpon the law in Deuteronomie serue you with greater shew Howbeit euen in that case it would rather further the Emperour then the Pope because it mentioneth the iudge as one the Priestes as many Hart. It is not necessary for the gouernment of the common-wealth among Princes that any one of them be Prince ouer all But as the king of Iuda was in his owne kingdome so euery Prince is highest in his own dominion Rainoldes Neither it is necessarie for the administration of the Church amongst Bishops that any one of them be Bishop ouer all But as the hie Priest was chiefe ouer the Iewes so is euery Bishop ouer his owne charge Hart. Nay the case of the Church and common-wealth herein are vnlike and different Because that common-weales may be vpholden although they be gouerned not onely by diuerse kings and ciuill magistrates but also by diuerse ordinances and lawes But the Church as it hath one faith in all Christians so ought it to haue the same lawes and ordinances of religion in all countries Rainoldes This difference and vnlikenes betwéene the Church and common-wealth is lesser then you imagine if it bee marked well For iustice and right in giuing euery one his due should haue the same place in the common-wealth which faith and religion claimeth in the Church Now as in religion there are some things of substance
and some of ceremonie so there are some pointes essentiall in iustice and some accidentall The essentiall pointes of iustice are the same in lawes of all common-wealthes For what is a law but a diuine ordinance commanding thinges honest and forbidding the contrarie The accidentall pointes doo and may vary according to circumstances of places times and persons So lawes of religion must be the same for substance in all Christian Churches in ceremonies they may differ as in the primitiue Church they did Wherefore the same faith and lawes of religion do no more inforce all churches to obey one Bishop then the same right and ordinances of iustice do require one Prince to rule all common-wealthes But what soeuer your fansie make you thinke of this point the place in Deuteronomie adiudging them to death who disobey the Priest can not helpe your fansie though it had béene meant of no other Priest but of the high Priest onely For Christ wheÌ„ he sent his Apostles to preach the Gospell said vnto them Whosoeuer shall not receaue you nor heare your wordes when yee depart out of that house or that city shake of the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall be easier for them of the land of Sodome and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement then for that citie Which wordes being spoken to all the Apostles not to Peter onely and therefore belonging to all their successors as well as to Peters doo shew that euery Bishop hath as great authoritie giuen him by Christ as the Priest had by that law in Deuteronomie In so much that Cyprian doth alleage it often by a better reason of proportioÌ„ then yours to proue the authoritie of Bishops each in seuerall ouer the flockes committed to them Hart. And what if a matter of religion be harder then Bishops each in seuerall be able to decide it What if they disagree and will not yéeld one to another Doth not wisedome shew that there must be a chiefe iudge to ende the controuersie to keepe the truth of faith and peace of the Church that it be not pestered with heresies and schismes Rainoldes The wisedome of God hath committed that chieftie of iudgement so to call it not to the soueraine power of one but to the common care of many For when there was a controuersie in the Church of Antioche about the obseruation of the law of Moses some Iewes teaching contrarie to that which Paule and Barnabas taught they ordeined that Paule and Barnabas and certaine other of them should go vp to Ierusalem to the Apostles and Elders about that question And so by their common agreement and decrée the controuersie was ended the truth of faith kept and peace maintained in the Church After which example the Bishops that succéeded them made the like assemblies on the like occasions and by common conference tooke order for such matters both of doctrine and discipline as concerned in common the state of their Churches So did the Apostles and Apostolike men prouide against schismes heresies Their wisedome reached not vnto your policie of one chiefe iudge Hart. The profit of Councels and Synods of Bishops is very great we graunt For many eyes see more then one But it wil be greater if they be all counsellors vnto one gouernor then if they gouerne eche his owne and all in common For reason doth teach vs that the regiment of one which wee call a monarchie is better and worthier then the regiment of many as the Philosophers shew who write of Common-weales Rainoldes Reason is a notable helpe of mans weakenes if it be obedient to faith as a handmaide not rule it as a maistresse And humane artes wherein the Philosophers haue séene many sparkles of the truth of God by the light of reason are profitable instruments to set forth the truth so farre as they haue peace not warre with Gods worde But if the Philosophers haue erred as naturall men who neither doo conceiue the things of the spirit of God nor can know them if reason haue her eyes as it were dazeled because the light shineth in darkenesse and the darkenesse did not comprehend it then is it to be feared least as the Serpent seduced Eue through his suttletie so he beguile you by reason and you forget that lesson of the holy Ghost beware least there be any man that spoyle you through philosophie Which I say not so much in respect of this point of the Church gouernment as of your whole doctrine a mightie ground whereof in your Schoolemen is philosophie and your Iesuites challenge doth offer to proue it by naturall and morall reason For here if I would iustifie the cause by Philosophers it is â—asily shewed that the Churches state is a most perfite monarchie wherein Christ is king his lawes are the scriptures his officers are the Bishops not ordained to bée assistantes vnto one deputie but to be deputies all them selues euen Pastors of his flock guides rulers of his Church Howbeit if it differ from the kingly states of worldly coÌ„mon-weales which philosophie writeth off as it doth in part Philosophers must not maruel sith Christ hath declared his kingdoÌ„e is not of this world Indéede the Apostles thought of such a kingdome but Christ saide it should not be so amongst them as with the Princes of the Gentiles Which sentence of Christ your Popes not vnderstanding and wéening the Apostles to be forbidden nothing but an heathnish tyrannie and liking well a monarchie because Philosophers prayse it they haue raised a visible monarchie of their owne in steede of Christes monarchie and haue chaunged his kingdome which is not of this world into a worldly kingdome the kingdome of the Romanes as a Iesuit calleth it Neither contenting them selues with such a kingdome as Princes of the Gentiles had they make them selues Princes ouer all the kingdomes and nations of the earth Which is a greater monarchie then Philosophers like off as I coulde proue out of them if the Popes cause were to be handled in their schooles But because I list not to trifle out the time with idle discourses about pointes of State as your Rabbines doo to proue that a monarchie is the best regiment therefore against such reasons I laye that exception which Tertullian did of olde against heretikes What hath Athens to do with Ierusalem the schoole of philosophy with the Church of Christ The duetie of Christians is to search and weigh in matters of faith not what reason but what religion not what the Philosophers but what the Prophets Apostles not what mans fansie but what the Spirit of God doth say And so the former parts of your maine argument for the Popes supremacie are too weake to proue it The last is weaker then they both For that there should be one chiefe and highest Pastor of the Church in earth it hath some
famous by sundrie of their liues succeeding one another Formosus Boniface Stephen Romanus Theodore Iohn the ninth and a litle after them Christopher and Sergius Of whom their owne friendes and fauorers doo write that they were gone from Peters steppes that they did get his See by briberie that they were moÌ„strous men or rather beastes and monsters Amongst whom the first was accursed by a Pope and made himselfe Pope by periurie The second would but that he was preuented by death the third did repeale the decrées of the first and condemne his actes the fourth condemned the third and iustified the first the fifth did keepe the same race the sixth confirmed it by a Councell the last for all the Councell and the Popes allowing it restored the third to his credit and againe coÌ„demned the first Thus were Peters successors whirled about with giddinesse as Krantzius speaketh of them and the head of the Church was long without a braine A thing verie straunge and such as I thinke hath scarce béene heard off amongst the Barbarians that one of these successours did take vp the carkasse of his predecessour out of his graue brought it into iudgement before a Councell of Bishops spoyled it of his Papall roabes clad it with a lay-mans garmentes endited it arraigned it condemned it cut off thrée fingers ofit and cast it into the streame of Tiber. Yet this Pope might haue béene a Saint of the Popes in comparison of Iohn the twelfth For he did shew more crueltie vpon the bodies of many liuing then the other of one dead and the other excelled not so much in one vice as Iohn the twelfth in all in vngodlinesse vnrighteousnesse intemperance pride in whooredomes adulteriâ—s incestes murders in periuries simonie sacrileges blasphemies and such abominations as I abhorre to mention Not Catiline not Nero not Heliogabalus not the most monstrous wretches that euer liued in Rome came néere vnto him It were incredible that one caraine should haue so much so horrible filth but that his owne Church and the Italian Bishops in a Councell assembled by the Emperour Otho did charge him with these thinges and with thinges more vilanous and outragious then these And himselfe when the Emperour and Councell wrote vnto him that he should come to make his answere made this answere to them and other he would make none that hee cursed them all to hell if they attempted to depriue him as hée heard say they did Luitprandus a deacon of a Church in Italie a man commended for his holines who liued at the same time doth write this storie of Pope Iohn and that with such credit that beside Martinus Tritemius Platina KraÌ„tzius and others men of your owne religion who write the summe of it after him Sigonius an Italian to whom your Pope giueth almost a thousand crownes yearely to reade in one of his Uniuersities though he dissemble much in his Italian historie the thinges that touch the Popes state yet he acknowledgeth this and writeth it somewhatfully Now I hope you will not say of this Pope Pope Iohn the twelfth that perhaps he shewed his faith by his workes or if you would say that he shewed his faith as it may be he did yet you will not say that it was such a faith as was the faith of Peter for which our Sauiour prayed For if you thinke here that notwithstanding all these crimes he might be good after as Peter repeÌ„ted when he had denyed Christ and so his faith did not faile though it did fainte then I must tell you further that Pope Iohn went forwarde as he had begoon and his death was answerable vnto his life While he was committing adulterie he was slaine whether thrust through by some who tooke him in the act or striken by the diuell historians agrée not But Cardinall Turrecremata doth take that as more likely which is more dreadfull Because the life saith he of Pope Iohn was detestable and marueilous offensiue to the Christian people therefore Christ himselfe gaue out the sentence of condemnation against him For while he was abusing a certaine mans wife the Diuell strooke him sodenly and so he died without repentance Hart. What if Pope Iohn and some others of them offended in their liues Yet their faith failed not that faith which Christ spake off For by the name of faith he meant the doctrine of faith which he prayed for Peter and so for his successours that they might kéepe sound and neuer be seduced from it to any heresie No more was Pope Iohn nor any other of the Popes though in their liues they were not all of the best Rainoldes I thought that Christ had meant by the name of faith a liuely Christian faith which imbraceth the promise of the mercie of God which worketh by loue and bringeth forth the fruites of faith which whosoeuer haue they haue assurance of euerlasting life But you thinke belike that he meant a dead faith a faith which they haue of whom it is writen the Diuels beleeue and tremble a faith which Pope Iohn might haue and be a reprobate and dye without repentance and be the heire of death eternall Hart. I say not that Christ meant a dead faith but the right faith that is as I saide the true and Catholike doctrine of the faith of Christ. As the scripture vseth that worde where it is writen that in the later times some shall depart from the faith and shall giue heede to spirites of errour and doctrines of Diuels The doctrines of Diuels are heresies whatsoeuer The faith is the true doctrine set against heresies S. Peâ—er held this faith when he saide Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God From this faith the diuell would haue remoued him But Christ prayed for him that it should not faile And so I say he prayed for the Bishops of Rome that it should faile in none of them Rainoldes But this faith is also a faith which the Deuils may haue and yet tremble a faith which Pope Iohn might haue and be a reprobate and die without repentance and be the heire of death eternall Hart. What if it be so Rainoldes Then Christ praied for Peter that he should neuer lose that faith which faith he might haue kept and yet be lost himselfe euen lost both bodie and soule to euerlasting death Hart. If I should graunt you so much Rainoldes Nay you must néedes graunt it for it is proued by Pope Iohn But why said Christ to Peter Satan hath desired that he may sift you as wheat What is that to sift the disciples as wheat Hart. To sift them as wheaten meale that is to shake out of them all their truth and faithfulnes as flower out of the sieue and leaue nothing within them but branne as it
of Constantine as you would haue vs to imagin Their meaning was onely to shew that the Canons which are called the Canons of the sixth Councell were made by other Bishops in the time of Iustinian long after that Councell and therefore are falsly fathered vpon that Hart. But is not Honorius condemned by those Canons whosoeuer made them Rainoldes He is not as much as named in any of them saue onely in the first where they who named him haue named him so that both they haue seuered them selues from the sixth Councell by which he was condemned and haue encreased the credit of it For they recken him amongst the heads of the Monotheliâ—es and say of them all that the sixth Councell did condemne them iustly Hart. That Canon sauoureth of corruption which speaketh so of Pope Honorius Rainoldes So. What say you then to the sixth generall Councell it seâ—fe They doo speake of him a great deale more bittâ—rly reprouing his doctâ—ine as the doctrine of heretikes false wicked pestilent Nor thinking it enough to condemne his doctrine they curse his name and person also Hart. I say that the copies of the sixth general councel are corrupted Rainoldes The sixth generall Councell hath handled the cause of the Monothelite heretikes in eightene actions as they are termed In the first action the eight and the eleuenth the heretikes alleage in their owne defense that Pope Honorius taught as they doo In the twelfth and thirtenth his writinges are examined his heresie discouered himselfe condemned and cursed In the sixtenth seuententh and eightenth the sentence which was giuen against him and the curse are repeated often againe and againe with acclamation of the Councel Thinke you that the copies of the actions of the Councell are corrupted in all those places Hart. In all in which Honorius is condemned or cursed Rainoldes What and that those places are corrupted in all copies and that without difference all after one sort al with the same wordes Hart. All why not is that impossible Rainoldes Not impossible yet improbable But the seuenth generall Councell which you esâ—éeme so greatly for their defense of image-worship this seuenth doth make no better account of Honorius Hart. The seuenth generall Councell is corrupted too Rainoldes But in the eight general Councel there is rehersed a spéech of Adrian the Pope which he had vttered in a councell assembled by himselfe In that he affirmeth that the Bishops of the east did condemne Honorius with the consent of the Bishop of Rome Hart. The eight generall Councell is corrupted too Rainoldes But Leo the second who was Pope then when the sixth Councell was ended doth namely confirme this point with these wordes we accurse Honorius who hath not lightned this Apostolike Church with Apostolike doctrine but by wicked treacherie hath labored to subuert the vndefiled faith Hart. That epistle of Leo is corrupted too Rainoldes But many other learned both Gréeke and Latin autors Beda Psellus Vmbertus Balsamon Marianus Scotus Tharasius and the easterne bishops yea your owne Pontificall of the Popes liues make reporte of it Hart. What néedeth this adoo It is all answered by Father Robert in a word For either these autors are corrupted them selues or they were deceiued by the copies of the sixth councell being corrupted Rainoldes The saying of Tully I sée is verie true He that is once gone beyond the boundes of modestie must lustily be impudent Albertus Pighius an Archpapist intending to proue in his bookes of the holy princehood of the Church that in all causes of faith and religion the Pope is the soueraine iudge of all Christians whom they are bound to heare and folow because it was absurd he thought and very daungerous to attribute so great a power to one man vnles the man were such as might not erre in faith therefore he tooke vpon him to bring in this doctrine that the praier of Christ for Peters faith not to faile doth priuilege the Pope from falling into any heresie Whereupon as in generall he denied that the Pope may be an heretike though all Diuines and Canonistes by his confession graunt it so to clense Honorius thereof in particular hée said that the copies of the sixth Councell which made against him were corrupted This dealing of Pighius was greatly misliked by lerned men of his own side in so much that one of them reproued him for it in a publike assembly wisht him to recant it They alleaged against him that Honorius was condemned and pronounced an heretike by two generall Councels the sixth and the seuenth wherofthe authoritie ought to be held as sacred But Pighius was so farre from being moued therewith that he wrote a new treatise against those two Councels affirming them to be corrupted and in heat of zeale for the Popes quarell he called the sixth Councell a most cursed Councell Here the Councels case and perill that was like to fall on all autours if such hot heads might make such desperate answeres did stirre vp the spirite of Franciscus Torrensis to write against Pighius whom he hath confuted and proued that Honorius was in deede an heretike condemned by the Councell iustly Sith the which time though Hosius a Cardinall and Onuphrius a Fryer men of hard foreheads haue taken Pighius part yet neither haue they strengthned the reasons of Pighius shaken in péeces by Torrensis and other of your Doctors more ingenuous and sound namely Iouerius Canus Andradius and Alfonsus a Castro haue shewed their mislike of Pighius and Honorius both Yea â—ur countriman Harding who would not graunt so much of any other Pope yet graunted of Honorius that he may be iustly burdened with heresie and fell in deede into it But now behold a newe gamster a Iesuit Father Robert doth set vpon the matter fresh and teacheth in his solemne lectures at Rome that it is true the Pope may be an heretike marry it is probable and godly to be thought that he cannot be an heretike A straunge resolution and fitte for a Iesuit Yet to shew how probable he can make that seeme which he confesseth to be false by holding the contrarie therof to be true he saith somewhat for euery one of those Popes that are charged with heresie and for Pope Honorius he dealeth more impudently then Pighius himselfe For he toucheth not the credit of the sixth or seuenth Councell onely but all that come in his way Councels Popes Grâ—ekes Latins Historians Diuines either they are corrupted or abused by corruption Well may the opinion which Father Robert saith for be probable false both But this of Honorius by which he would confirme it is out of all doubt though false yet not probable Hart. It is probable enough as Father Robert handleth it For streames may be corrupted as easily as the fountaine
thirtéenth a most louing father of the Churches children Rainoldes Whether that these Popes or other haue béene good and their elections lawfull it is not the question Perhaps you praise them for affection perhaps they haue béene good as Popes For Popes in our daies are praysed for their goodnes when they surpasse not the wickednes of other men as a good historian who knew and loued them well doth note in Clemens the seuenth Marcellus the second dyed the two and twentéeth day of his Popedome not without suspicion of poyson saith your Genebrard because some men thought that he would be to good Pius the fourth Pius the fifth and Gregorie the thirtéenth haue held the Popedome longer If they were good Popes I trust they were not too good As for their electious the daies are yet too young to sée the faithfull stories of them But if they were chosen as their predecessours according to the custome of the Church of Rome then by the elections of Pius the third Iulius the second Leo the tenth Clemens the seuenth and Cardinall Woolseis letters suing to succéede Clemens wise men may coniecture how lawfully they were chosen You say that there were many tumultes and schismes chiefly through the Emperours meanes before the Popes election could bee wrested from them and brought to the Cardinals but after that time thinges began to mende In déede they haue mended as sower ale doth in summer For of thirtie schismes in the Church of Rome so many as no Church can boast of besides the worst and the longest hath béene sith that time euen the nine and twentieth which lasted by the space of fiftie yeares together first with two Popes at once then with three And if the Emperour Sigismund had not béene through whose meanes the Councell of Constance was assembled and the three remoued by this time your Church might haue had as many Popes as in the Reuelation the scarlet coloured beast hath heads But to leaue the Emperours and proue the point in question that since the Popes were chosen onely by the Cardinals there haue béene as monstrous Popes as were before and haue come in as vnlawfully there are so many examples that it is hard to make choise or know where to beginne amongst them Let him be the first who compiled part of the canon law and that lusty decretall of the Popes supremacy euen Boniface the eighth Who being inflamed with desire of the Popedome induced Pope Caelestin a simple man to resigne it whether by perswading him that hee was not able to wéelde a charge so weighty or by procuring some to sound vnto him in the night a voice as it were from heauen that if he would be saued he must resigne the Popedom or by both these practises but he induced him to resigne it and not looking to be called by God as was Aaron he got it to him selfe by vnorderly meanes all that ambition could deuise Neither did he gouerne it better then he got it For being a man of intolerable pride and thirsting after gold vnspeakeably he bore himselfe as Lorde of spirituall thinges and temporall throughout the whole world He tooke vpon him at his lust to giue and take away kingdomes to banish men and to restore them and sought to bréede terrour rather then religion in the mindes of Emperours of Kinges of Princes of peoples and of nations He was the first autour of your yeare of Iubilee proclaiming full remission ofsinnes to all them who came in pilgrimage to Rome a great gaine to him and his and at that Iubilee he shewed himselfe in his solemnities one day attired like a Pope an other like an Emperour and hauing a naked sworde before him he sate and saide with loude voyce Beholde the two swordes here He cast his predecessour Caelestine into prison and brought him there vnto his graue He vexed the countrie of Italie with warres and nourished discords amongst them He saide that both the land and persons of the Scottes belonged to his Chappell that vnder that pretense hée might trouble England and cite king Edward to his iudgement He refused to accept of Albert chosen Emperour by the Princes of Germany because they made choise without his authoritie who had he said him selfe the right ofboth swordes Hee depriued the French king of his kingdome vpon displeasure and moued the king of England to make warre against him and graunted to Albert that he should be Emperour on condition that he would take the realme of Fraunce also and thrust the lawfull king out of it And more he would haue done of such Papall affaires vnlesse the French king to tame his pride had tooke him prisoner whereupon he dyed within a few dayes for griefe This is that Boniface ofwhom the saying goeth He entred like a foxe he raigned like a lyon hee dyed like a dogge An other like to him but in an other kinde is Iohn the three and twentéeth Who got while he was Cardinall a great deale of mony and finding the Cardinals somewhat poore and néedy gaue them gentle rewardes Whereupon they seing him to be a liberall man made him Pope for it But that liberalitie was his chiefest vertue For he was fitter for the campe then for the Church for profane thinges then for the seruice of god as knowing no faith nor religion at all an oppressour of the poore a persecuter of iustice a mainteiner of the wicked a sanctuarie of Simonie an ofscouring of vices giuen wholy to sleepe to fleshly lustes wholy contrarie to the life and maners of Christ a mirror of vnhonest and infamous behauiour a deuiser a profound deuiser of all vilanies in a worde so lewde and wretched a caitife that amongst them who knew his conuersation he was called commonly a diuell incarnate Yet these most holie Lordes Boniface and Iohn are nothing in comparison of Alexander the sixth For although they both did get the triple crowne corruptly yet they conueyed it closely Alexander the sixth did buy the voyces of many Cardinals openly partly with money partly with promises of his offices and liuinges chiefely the voyce of Cardinall Ascanio for which hee did couenant to giue the chiefest office of the Court of Rome and Churches and castles and a palace full of moueable goods of marueilous great value According vnto which beginning he went forwarde and proued as it was thought he would most pernicious to Italie and all Christendome For though hee excelled in sharpenes of wit in iudgement in eloquence and was verie carefull and quicke in matters of importance yet hee passed farre these vertues with his vices maners most beastly not sinceritie not modestie not truth not faith not religion couetousnes vnsatiable vnmeasurable ambition
by him selfe because it is his duetie Rainoldes Nay if he be sicke it is his duetie then not to preach by him selfe God hath layed an other duetie vpon him to looke to his health that he may do his former duetie or if his appointed time be fulfilled to thinke vpon a higher duetie But by this reason no Christian is bound to come to Church by him selfe For he is not bound if he be sicke extremely Neither hath the Pope néede to preach by others For if he be sicke that hee cannot preach he is discharged before God yea although no other doo preach in his stéede Hart. But it is better yet if he supplie his roome by others Rainoldes Be it better What then Hart. If sickenes maye excuse him then imprisonment may Rainoldes And banishment and death and whatsoeuer difficultie whereby God depriueth him of power to preach What then Hart. And why may not then the great affaires of the Churches state excuse him too Rainoldes What els As Pope Iulius that he may lye in campe to beate Mirandula to the ground that he may recouer Rauenna and Ceruia that he may conquer Placentia and Parma that he may raise England and Spaine against Fraunce Fraunce and Germanie against Venice Venice and Rome against Genua them both and others against Ferrara Italie against it selfe the Swizzers against all sauing that the Swizzers plaid the Swizzers with him that is for lacke of pay and foode they forsooke him Hart. You take a delight in discouering still the frailties of the Popes as cursed Cham did the priuities of his father Noe. The great affaires that I meant of the Churches state are the affaires of religion gouernment of the Church throughout all Christendome whereof the charge belongeth vnto them by duetie and doth greatly busie them Rainoldes How farre I am from Cham and your Pope from Noe I could declare easily if it perteined to my purpose But I am the willinger to beare this reproch because when S. Bernard reproued the corruptions of the Court of Rome he did incurre it too and hath defended me against it For that which he said on lesser occasion I may more iustly say on greater I speake thinges naked nakedly neither discouer I priuie shame but open shamelessenes I reproue I would to God that these thinges were done priuately and in chambers I would that we alone had seene them and heard them I would that the Noes of our time had left vs some what whereby we might couer them in part Now when all men see that which is a common talke throughout the world shall we alone holde our peace My head is bruised round about the blood doth gush out on all sides and shall I thinke that I must couer it Whatsoeuer I lay thereon it will bee bloodied and it will turne to greater shame and confusion that I should seeke to couer that which cannot be couered These thinges S. Bernard wrote about the time of Pope Eugenius the third aboue foure hundred yeares agoe when Popes either had or made a semblaunce of more honestie What would he haue writen if he had liued since vnder Boniface the eighth or Vrban the sixth or Boniface the ninth or Iohn the three and twentéeth or Paule the second or Alexander the sixth or Leo the tenth or him of whom I talked last the warriour Iulius Wherefore if I should seeke to couer them now when in Bernards time they could not be couered the shame which he feared might fall vpon me and mine owne conscience would condemne me Looke you to it M. Hart who sooth vp those men of sinne in their iniquities and call their furies fraileties and make a Noe of a Nimrod and bring the fall of Saintes to excuse the wilfull outrages of théeues and robbers You say that you meant by the great affaires of the Churches state the affaires of religion and gouernment of the Church throughout all Christendome Whatsoeuer you meant that is the truth which I shewed by the affaires of Pope Iulius For in the Popes language the name of the Church doth signifie the Papacie that is the dominion and princehood of the Pope in things both temporal and spirituall So that when Iulius warred either to recouer or to enlarge the bounds of his dominion temporal then was he about the affaires of the Church And this is apparant by the Itaâ—ian historie writen of those affaires wherein Faenza and the cities which he requireth the Venetians to restore vnto him are called cities of the Church and when hee seazeth on them by force or composition they returne to the gouernment and obedience of the Church and if his martiall feates doo sticke in some distresse though thinges go hard quoth Iulius yet God will helpe his Church and the meanes by which the endes whereto he fighteth are inuested all with the Churches title the captaines of the Church and armies of the Church against the Churches enimies rebels to the Church the Churches horsemen the Churches footemen the Churches subiectes the Churches vasals in a word the thinges which the Pope possesseth they are the Churches state the Churches state is said to be in perill and daunger when he is like to lose somewhat he bindeth the Spanish king to finde him yearely three hundred men of armes to defend the Churches state hée sendeth word to sundry princes that the French king will bring a mightie host to oppresse the Churches state the French king offreth to the Emperour that he will helpe him by force of armes to get Rome and all the Churches state as belonging by right and reason to the Empire This is the state in deede about the affaires whereof the Popes are busied The affaires of religion and gouernment of the Church throughout all Christendome are but pretenses and pillars to support this state For as Bernard wrote of the Court of Rome that they who went thither to multiply their church-promotions should there finde fauorers of their lustes not that the Romanes care greatly how thinges go but because they greatly loue bribes and folow rewardes so men ofskill and iudgement who knewe the Popes thoroughly and faithfully set foorth their liues haue opened this secret and mysterie of their state as it hath béene menaged since it grewe to maiestie that they minde the propping of their owne kingdome while they pretend the worship of Christ as Herode did Pope Iulilius saith his storie did pretend godlinesse and zeale of religion but it was ambition that moued him to his warlike interprises When I name Pope Iulius I name him for example For he was neither first nor last of those Herodes But you may gesse the rest by one Hart. In déede they haue warred I graunt in time of néede and why should they not Though I will not defend ambition in anie of them But this I will defend that they might
lawfullie prouide for the maintenance of their state temporall For what saith S. Paul If any man haue not care of his owne and specially of his domesticals he hath denyed the faith and is worse then an infidell Wherefore you must consider that the Pope susteineth a double person as it were the one of a Prince the other of a Bishop As a Prince he gouerneth his temporall dominion as a Bishop his spirituall His spirituall charge is all the churche of Christ his temporall a part of it And so though both of them concerne after a sorte the state of the Church yet his affaires spirituall which stretch through all Christendoom doo differ from his temporall which touch the Church of Rome chieflie For example Leo the ninth a verie good Pope aboue fiue hundred yeares since when the Normans spoiled the land of the Church and he had cursed them for it but could not conquer them by curses he got of the Emperor a strong band of soldiours whom he lead in person himselfe against the varletes and met them in the field manfully At the same time Michael the Patriarke of Constantinople denyed the supremacie of the Church of Rome and claimed it to his own Sée Whereof when Pope Leo heard he sent thrée legats to Constantinople to root out that heresie Now the former of these thinges he did as Prince against the Normans who set vpon his temporall dominion with armes the later as Bishop against the Patriarke who taught heresie a point of his spirituall charge Affaires of this later sort let me name for difference sake the Church-affaires the former the affaires of state And so it shall appeere what iniurie you doo them whom spitefully you call Herodes For you say that the affaires which they are busied about are their affaires of state Whereas in verie truth the affaires of the Church doo busie them a great deale more to sée that the Catholike religion be taught that errors be suppressed to prouide dioceses of good and learned Bishops and parishes of able pastors to heare appeales determine causes receiue supplications excommunicate the wicked absolue the repentant to doo the whole function of supreme heades of the Church And may not these affaires so weightie in charge in number so manie bee a iust excuse for them if they preach not Or will you slaunder them that they omit that dutie for their state-affaires when they omit it for the Church Rainoldes I would to God you were able to proue that I slaunder them and speake more spitefullie then trulie ofthem Better had it béene and would be for poore Christians of whom they haue murdered more soules nay more thousands of soules in one countrie with their Herodian practises then Herode murdered bodies through his whole dominion And this haue they doon by that prophane policie wherewith I iustlie charged them euen by pretending the Churches state to plant their owne and vsing the shewes of gouernment spirituall to get them temporall aduancement For vnder the coolour of binding and loosing the credit of forgiuing sinnes the title of S. Peters keyes their ordering of the whole Church and highest power in al Church-causes they haue raised vp the tower of their Papacie with the spoiles of Christendom and haue deuoured men as breade and sold the poore for siluer that they might make themselues strong in power and rich in wealth The first and chiefest meanes whereby they finished this worke and hauing built the walles by climing vp aboue Bishops did lay the roofe of it by climing vp aboue Emperours was excommunication Which they not content to vse against their Souerains as a spirituall ceasure did racke it to a ciuill punishment remouing them not onelie from the communion of the faithfull but also from dominion and rule ouer their subiectes and putting them as from the Church so from the Empire too When Emperour Leo the third desirous to abolish the worship of Images which then was créeping in had caused them to be defaced and thereupon did punish some who withstood it Pope Gregorie the second did excommunicate him in that Papal sorte forbidding the Italians to pay him tribute or obey him Upon this sentence and inhibition of the Pope a great part of Italie rebelled against their Emperour resiant at Constantinople and laid violent handes vpon his Deputies Lieutenants of whom they slew two and put out the eyes of the third By reason of which vprore and tumults ensuing part of the countrie that rebelled was conquered by the king of Lombardie Rome and the dominion of the Roman Dukedome fell vnto the Pope So the Pope who till that time had béene a Bishop onely became a Prince by treason But the Emperour sent another Deputie into Italie to stay those attemptes Who entring into league with the king of Lombards they ioined hostes togither and besieged Rome The Pope perceiuing that the garrisons and munitions wherewith he had fensed and fortified the citie were not strong enough to make his partie good against them trusting on the king of Lombards deuotion he went out with a solemne procession vnto him and with many swéete wordes of Peter and Paul Princes of the Apostles who with their pretious bloud had consecrated the church of Rome and will the godly vertuous catholike king of Lombards hurt the citie of that church and draw on him the vengeance of Peter and Paul he did intreate the king to giue the siege ouer and make the Deputie and him friendes Afterwarde a Duke one of the kinges subiects entending to reuolt from him did ioine in league and fréendship with the Roman Prince Pope Gregory the third and on the affiance thereof he rebelled The king hauing recouered his Dukedom by armes pursued the Duke to Rome The Pope not willing to deliuer the rebell nor able to defend the citie against the king who thereupon besieged it dealt as his predecessour had doon by supplication But finding the matter to be past intreatie and hoping for no aide in Italie hee sent to Charles Martell the king of Frances hye steward desiring him to helpe the church against the Lombard Which Charles by an embassage did raised the siege Now when Charles dyed his sonne named Pipine sucâ—ceded him in office who because Chilperike that was king then did no part of the kingly duty but left the charge and burden thereof vnto him he tooke thereby occasion to make himselfe king Which to bring about with greater credit and autoritie the Popes aduise was asked Pope Zacharie made answere that he who did execute the dutie of the king ought to be king rather then he who did not execute it Whereupon the French men chose Pipine to be king the Pope released them of their oth to Chilperike About a two yeares after the king of Lombardy hauing woon Rauenna which citie was the seate of the Empire in Italy thought it méet that Rome and the Roman Dukedom
Whereupon as the scripture speaketh of S. Paul that he sate at Corinth a yeare sixe monethes teaching the word of of God amongst them meaning that he continued there and preached to them in like sort the Fathers â—o signifie that Peter abode and taught in Rome are accustomed to say that he sate at Rome So doth Austin mention the succession of Bishops from the seat of Peter So doth Ierom honor the Bishop of that See with the nâ—me of Peters chaire But what is this to the supremacie For it is spoken by the Fathers also that Peter did sit and hâ—d hâ—s châ—ire at Antioche yea at Antioche as some say he had in deede a high chaire wherin he was exalted And of his chaire at Antioche you haue an olde holy day of his chaire at Rome a new one trimmed of late Wherefore if the high chaire of Peter at Antioche with an olde feaste could not make the Bishop of Antioche supreme head how can the Bishop of Rome be made supreme head by Peters chaire perhaps a lower chaire at Rome with a newe feast If the new feast be that which maketh vp the matter the Pope was no foole in making that feast He may doo well to make mâ—e Hart. You make your selfe sport with our feastes of S. Peters chaire as though I had said that because the Fathers doo name the Sée of Rome the seat and chaire of Peter therefore the Bishop of Rome must haue the supremacie Whereas I alleaged them to shew that the Bishops and the succession of Bishops in that See is the rocke on which S. Ièrom saith he knoweth the Church to be built against which S. Austin saith that the proud gates of hell preuaile not Rainoldes But you doo conclude the Popes supremacie hereof or els you stray from the question Hart. Why may I not conclude it Rainoldes If you list but the feast of S. Peters chaire would proue it more galantly For if the testimonies which you alleage of Ierom and Austin be examined they say nothing for it S. Ierom abiding in his young yeares among the Arian heretikes in the coastes of Syria was required by their Bishop to allow and approue a profession of faith touching the Trinitie wherein he suspected there lay some priuy poyson hidden Wherefore least he should yéelde thereunto rashly he sought to be directed by the aduise and counsell of Damasus Bishop of Rome as whom both hee acknowledged to bee his owne Biâ—hop and knew to be a Bishop that helde the catholike faith which praise by that title of the rocke he giueth him In Afrike they were troubled with other heretikes named Donatistes a sect which despised the communion of Saintes and rent them selues a sunder from the assemblies of Christians because there were some euil men amongst them as they said whose felowship defiled them S. Austin wrote a Psalme for the Catholiks against these wherein hauing proued first out of the scriptures that we must not leaue the communion of the Church for that there are some euill men in it sith Christ hath declared that there should be so as tares with corne in the field as chaffe with wheate in the floore as badde with good in the nett he confirmeth this doctrine by the consent iudgement of the Church of Rome whose Bishops euen from Peter had imbraced it still and constantly maintained it the gates of hel in vaine assaulting them So the wordes of Austin and Ierom doo import a sinceritie of faith in the Church of Rome the Roman Bishops against the Arians and Donatistes but neither of their wordes import the supremacie which is a soueraintie of power Hart. If they had not meant as well a soueraintie of power as sinceritie of faith why should they mention that Church and not others Were there no Bishops sincere through al the world but the Bishops of Rome onely Rainoldes Yes a great many and they mention them too For Ierom though he asketh the aduise of Damasus a young man of an old a Roman of the Bishop of Rome whose religion was sound whose authoritie was great and the greater with Ierom because he knew him well as hauing lerned him selfe the faith of Christ in Rome where he was baptized yet doth he name S. Ambrose the Bishop then of Milan as sound in faith also and the Bishops of Aegypt yea of the west in generall Now in the west saith he the sunne of righteousnes ariseth and the inheritance of the Fathers is kept vncorrupted amongst you alone In like sort doth Austin note against the Donatistes whose canker had fretted but a péece of Afrike that Bishops of the coastes and countries beyond sea and Churches through the whole world were pure from their heresie Howbeit as Ierom preferred the aduise of Damasus before others to confirme himselfe so did Austin choose the Church of Rome aboue the rest to confirme his brethren For he penned his Psalme wherin this is writen of purpose to the capacitie of the very meanest simplest of the people that they might vnderstaÌ„d and remember the state of the controuersie with the Donatistes Wherefore he commendeth the truth by the authoritie of the Church of Rome which of all the Churches that the Apostles planted was both néerest to them and best estéemed of amongst them But how farre S. Austin was from your fansie of the Popes supremacie when he alleaged the Church of Rome to this intent let that bee a token that writing for the learned who were of greater reach he alleageth the Churches of Ierusalem of Corinth of Antioche Ephesus Smyrna Pergamus of Asia Bithynia Galatia Cappadocia in a worde of all the rest as well as of Rome And this may be semblably noted in S. Ierom. Who when the Arians charged him with heresie did iustifie his faith by his communion with the Churches of the west and of Aegypt of Damasus Bishop of Rome and Peter Bishop of Alexandria According to the law of the Emperour Theodosius wherein it is decréed that all they should be named and esteemed Catholikes who beleeued of the Trinitie as Damasus and Peter did the rest to be accounted and punished as heretikes A great prayse I graunt of the faith of Damasus that so good an Emperour did set him for a sampler whom Christians should folow but a prayse common 〈◊〉 him with Peter Bishop of Alexandria and common to them both with sundrie Bishops of the East Nectarius Pelagius Diodorus Amphilochius Helladius Otreinâ—s Gregorie Nyâ—â—en and mo Of whom the same Emperour did 〈◊〉 make an other law that none should haue the châ—rge of â—ishoprickes committed to them but such as weâ—â— of their faith Whereby you may perceyue that the prayse giuen to Damasus by Ierom proueth a sound faith common to the Bishop of Rome with many other not a soueraine power peculiar to him alone aboue all Hart. Then
breath doo say that the same thing is both writen and vnwriten Yet Father Robert dealeth wiselyer and like a Iesuite who séeing the danger of naming speciall men and places doth shrowd himselfe in the generall of Councels Popes and Fathers As if an horse-stealer being to giue account of whom and where he got his horses should say that he bought them of incorporations horse-coursers and honest men within Christendom Hart. Will you leaue your roauing and come vnto the marke now Rainoldes It is a roauing marke we shote at and I am come néerer it then you would haue me But what shall be your next baâ—â— Hart. I told you that I would proue it next by the Fathers It agreeth very well with your spirit that you should call this a bolt Rainoldes Well enough as you shoote it For although the Lord hath planted the writings of the Fathers as trees in his Church as in a Paradise whereof there may be made good shaftes blessed is the man that hath his quiuer full of them they shall not be confounded but they shall destroy their enimies in the gate yet not all the shaftes which you do vse of theirs are good your fletchers at whose handes you take them vpon trust doo marre them in the making that I may iustly call them rather bolts of Papistes then shafts of the Fathers Who if they were aliue might say to you in like sorte as did a Poet to Fidentinus This booke Sir Fidentinus which thou doost reade is mine But thou by reading it amisse beginst to make it thine Hart. Will you promise then to yelde vnto the Popes supremacie if I proue it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers alleaged and applyed rightly Rainoldes I truly But I must doo it with a protestation for my defense against such quarrelers as Bishop Iewell fell vpon Hart. With what protestation Rainoldes With this that I promise to yéelde vnto the Popes supremacie if you can proue it by the Fathers not becaâ—â—e I thinke that proofe to be sufficient of doubtfull matters in religion but because I know you are not able so to proue it Hart. Whether I be able or no so to proue it the thing it selfe will shew But if you thinke not that a sufficient proofe why saide you that the writinges of Fathers are as trees whereof there may be made good shaftes such as shall destroy their enimies in the gate yea that the man is blessed who hath his quiuer full of them Rainoldes It is writen in the Psalmes Except the Lord keepe the citie the keeper watcheth in vaine By the which wordes the Prophet séemeth to haue thought that the warde and watch of men is not sufficient for the defense of cities vnlesse the Lord assist them with his watch and ward How say is not this true Hart. So. What of that Rainoldes That is an answere to your question For the Prophet adding how God doth blesse men in giuing them children saith they are as arrowes in the hand of a strong man blessed is the man that hath his quiuer full of them they shall not be confounded but they shall destroy their enimies in the gate If this be truly spoken of children well nurtured who yet are not sufficient to defend a citie without the Lordes assistance why might it not be spoken of Fathers well vsed and yet they not suffice to decide a controuersie without the worde of God For though I acknowledge there is good wood in them to make shaftes for the Lordes warres yet is not all their wood such some of it is knottie some lithy â—ome crooked And the best arrowes which are made thereof vnlesse they haue heades of stronger mettall then them selues out of the Lords armorie they are not sharpe enough to pearce into the harte of the kinges enimies as are the arrowes of our Salomon Wherefore as of your part if you hearken not to Moses and the Prophetes I haue no greate hope that Fathers will perswade you though they should rise from the dead so for my selfe I will assure you that neither dead nor quicke Fathers nor children shall perswade me any thing in matters of religion which they can not proue by Moses and the Prophetes For the Apostles preached not any thing but that which the Prophetes and Moses saide should come to passe And if a Father if a Saint if an Angell from heauen preach beside that which the Apostles preached let him be accursed This lesson I haue learned of Paul the Apostle and I subscribe vnto it If you can like it better out of a Fathers mouth learne it of S. Austin Who writing against the Donatists which could not proue by scripture their erroneous doctrine doth presse them with the same sentence and teach al Christians the same lesson whether it be of Christ or of his Church or of any thing els whatsoeuer pertaining to our faith and life I will not say if we but if an Angel from heauen shall preach to you besides that which you haue receyued in the scriptures of the law and the Gospel that is to say the olde and new testament let him be accursed Hart. You mistake the meaning of S. Austins wordes For they are thus in Latin Proinde siue de Christo siue de eius ecclesia siue dâ— quacunque alia re quae pertinet ad fidem vitamque nostram Rainoldes I haue the right meaning of these wordes I trow for they are plaine of all thinges that doo concerne our faith and life Hart. I but heare the rest Non dicam si nos nequaquam comparandi ei qui dixit licet nos sed â—mnino quod sequutus adiecit si angelus Rainoldes Neither doo I mistake these For he alludeth to the wordes of Paul to the Galatians Hart. But you mistake the meaning of that which doth follow Si angelus de coelo vobis annuntiauerit praeterqà um quod in scripturis legalibus euangelicis accepistis anathema sit Rainoldes Why doth he not meane the old new testameÌ„t as we call them by the scripâ—ures of the law and the gospell Hart. Yes but your errour is in the worde praeterquà m by which he meaneth contra quà m not beside that but against that For there are sundrie thinges of faith and life to be preached beside them in the scriptures of the law and the gospell but not against them Wherefore if it were so that the Popes supremacie could not be proued by scriptures yet the proofe of it by the Fathers might be good For it were not against the scriptures although it were beside the scriptures Rainoldes Praeterquà m id est contra quà m beside that which you haue receyued in the scriptures that is against that This is your Louanists glose Hart. Nay it is S. Austins as you may perceiue by his own wordes in an other place touching the same matter where he saith thus The Apostle did not say
name that is solitarie and not collegiate moonkes But the beléeuers at Ierusalem were at Ierusalem in a citie and liued in fellowship together Doo you not sée that the Apostles and Apostolike men were not such as afterwarde the moonkes whom Ierom meaneth and therefore Ierom was deceiued Hart. I will not beléeue on your worde that so worthie a Father was deceiued Rainoldes If you will not on my worde I will bring his owne worde to make you beléeue it For writing to Paulinus touching the training vp of moonkes he saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are not paterns for them to folow but S. Antonie and others who dwelt in fieldes and deserts Hart. He saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are set for an example to Priestes and Bishops not to moonkes True in some respectes And yet me thinkes too But what if the Fathers perhaps might be deceiued so through ouersight Rainoldes If they might be deceiued so through ouersight they might be deceiued through affection also For they were men and subiect to it As Cyprian through too much hatred of heretikes condemned the baptisme of heretikes as vnlawfull wherein a Councell erred with him As Origen through too much compassion of the wicked thought that the diuels them â—elues should be saued at length As Tertullian through spite of the Roman clergie reuolted to the Montanists and called the Catholikes carnall men because they were not so precise as the Montanists in pointes of mariage and fasting Hart. We condemne these errours in them as well as you and doo therein except against them Rainoldes You doo except also I trow I am sure your Doctors doo against Damascene for his tale of Gregorie the Pope and Traian the Emperour that Gregorie while he went ouer the market place of Traian did pray for Traians soule to God and behold a voyce from heauen I haue heard thy prayer and I pardon Traian but see that thou pray no more to me for the wicked A verie great affection to prayers for the dead that moued Damascene to write this For it is against the doctrine of the Schoolemen that prayers may helpe out the soules that are in hell In Purgatorie they say they may Hart. S. Thomas doth confirme the same Yet he beléeueth that of Damascene But he saith that Gregorie did it by speciall priuilege which doth not breake the common law Rainoldes But your Canus saith that Thomas was a young man then beside that he was greatly affected to Damascen And Damascen might easily perswade a well willer he doth affirme so lustily that all the east and west is witnesse that the thing is true Which report of his yet Canus doth maruell at sith it is vnknowne in all the Latin story But Canus as a man of better minde and sounder iudgement then your Popish Doctors are the most of them did wisely sée noteth fréely that not onely later and lesse discreete autours as he who made the golden legend but also graue ancient learned holy Fathers haue ouershot them selues in writing miracles of Saintes partly while they fetched the truth where it is seldom from common rumors and reportes partly while they sought to please the peoples humor and thought it lawfull for historians to write thinges as true which coÌ„monly are counted true Of this sorte he nameth Gregorie and Bede the one for his Dialogues the other for his English story He might haue named Damascene with them Unlesse hee meant him rather perhaps to be of that sorte which did not onely take by heare-say of others but coyned lyes themselues too wrote those thinges of Saintes which their fansie liked though neither true nor likely As that S. Frauncis was wont to take lise that were shaken off and put them on himselfe it was a lowsie tricke and S. Frauncis did it not but the writer thought it an argument of his holinesse Likewise that when the diuel troubled S. Dominike S. Dominike constrained him to hold a candle in his handes till the candle being spent did put him to great grief in burning his fingers Such examples there are innumerable but these two may giue a taste of their affection who haue defiled the stories of Saintes with filthie fables Yet out of such stories many thinges are read in your Church-seruice And Canus although he confesse it as euident notwithstanding which is straunge he thinketh them vnwise Bishops who seeke to reforme it For while they cure the nailesore saith he they hurt the head that is in steede of counterfeites they bring in graue stories but they chaunge the seruice of the Church so farre that scarce any shew of the olde religion is remaining in it A thing well considered of them by whom your Roman Portesse was reformed For though they haue remoued some of those stories which Canus saith are vncertaine forged friuolous and false yet haue they doon it sparingly If they should haue left out all those legend-toyes their Portesse had beene like our booke of common prayer which heretikes would haue laught at and there had remained no shew in a maner of the olde religion saue that their seruice is in Latin Hart. These thinges are impertinent but that it pleaseth you to play the Hicke-scorner with the holy Portesse For what need you mention the writer of S. Francis life or S. Dominikes or the golden legend that old moth-eaten booke as D. Harding calleth it of the liues of Saintes I mind not to presse you with thinges of later writers but of olde and ancient whom Canus iudgeth better of then of the younger For he saith of Vincentius Beluacensis and Antoninus that they cared not so much to write thinges true and certaine as to let go nothing that they found writeÌ„ in any papers whatsoeuer But of Bede and Gregorie he iudgeth more softly and rather excuseth them then reproueth them Though iudge he how he listed he was but one Doctour and other learned men perhaps mislike his iudgement both for younger and elder writers Rainoldes They who deale with taming of lyons I haue read are wont when they finde them somewhat out of order to beate dogges before them that in a dogge the lyon may see his owne desert Euen so when I rebuke the writer of S. Francis life or of S. Dominikes or of the moth-eaten booke as you call it though he who wrote it was an Archbishop in his time a man of name and his booke a legend read publikely in Churches and called golden for the excellencie but when I rebuke that moth-eaten writer or Antoninus if you will and Vincentius Beluacensis who are as good as he welnigh you must not thinke I doo it for the dogges sake but for the lions rather I meane the ancient writers who deserue rebuke too For as not Rupertus
alleaging as I ghesse this text on Rufus credit though he name him not did mistake the matter the rather through a preiudice conceiued of the later times For that Metropolitans should professe Christ it was a thing required then But that they should be sworne to maintaine the Papacy it is a wéede that grew â—â—â—e or six hundred yeares after Hart. That they should be sworne to maintaine the Papacy it is though a newer yet a néedfull order least men should fall away from vnitie and obedience of the Sée of Rome But thus much yet Pelagius decréed as you graunt that they should al make profession of their faith to him be allowed by his consent Rainoldes All within his diocese not all throughout the world Hart. Nay he saith if any if any Metropolitan send not vnto the See of Rome to shew his faith and receiue the pall let him be depriued Behold he speaketh generally Rainoldes So the States of England make their actes of Parlament if any man doo this or that Which yet they meane not of men in Rome and Turkie but of all men within the Quéenes dominion Hart But the whole world is the Popes diocese And that he meant of al Metropolitans therein it is the more likely because that all Bishops were then confirmed by the Pope and it was thought necessarie that they should be so Whereof there are euident and notable examples as D Stapleton sheweth in Leo the great about the election of Anatolius the Patriarke of Constantinople and Proterius the Patriarke of Alexandria in Sozomen and Theodoret about Nectarius also elected by the whole Councell and yet to be confirmed by Damasus in Gregorie the great about the Bishop of Salonae who was confirmed by the Emperours he being not made priuie to it a thing that neuer happened vnder any Christian Prince before saith Gregorie Yea Bishops newly chosen were wont to send letters called synodicall to the Pope in which they made profession of the faith they held and so declared their agreement with the Church of Rome Such letters Proterius the Patriarke afore named of Alexandria sent to Leo Sophronius the Patriarke of Ierusalem to Pope Honorius Nicephorus the Patriarke of Constantinople to Leo the third and Peter after him to Leo the ninth Rainoldes But as other Patriarkes did send vnto the Popes such letters of conference whereby they made profession of their faith to him and shewed their agreement with the Church of Rome in like sort the Pope was wont to make profession of his faith to them and shew his consent in religion with their Churches For Gregorie the great wrote so to Iohn the Patriarke of Constantinople to Eulogius the Patriarke of Alexandria to Gregorie and Anastasius the Patriarkes of Antioche to Iohn the Patriarke of Ierusalem and this he did according to the ancient custome of his predecessours amongst whom was Leo. Wherefore the preeminence of Leo was no greater in confirming Patriarkes of Constantinople and Alexandria then was their preeminence in confirming him For as he allowed not them for lawfull Bishops vntill by their letters of conference he knew them to be sound in faith so neither were they wont to allow of any of whose faith they were not enformed in the same maner As for the example in Sozomen Theodoret that Nectarius elected by the whole Councell was yet to be confirmed by Damasus therein your Doctour playeth with Sozomen and Theodoret. For Sozomen neither saith it nor maketh any shew of saying it not as much as by naming Damasus Theodoret setteth downe the letters writen by the Councell to Damasus Ambrose Britto and other Bishops of the west but they disproue that priuilege of the Popes prerogatiue which Stapleton would proue by them For he alleageth them to shew that the Pope had at length at that time a necessarie consent in the confirming of all Bishops more then other Bishops yea then him selfe before had Whereas the letters mention the consent of Ambrose Britto and the rest no lesse then the consent of Damasus and they craue their common consent in like sort to the confirming of Nectarius as in former time all Bishops were confirmed yea the Pope too by the consent ech of others for better keeping of the faith and fostering of loue amongst them So the rest of your proofes import an equalitie betweene all Bishops at the first and afterwarde betweene all Patriarkes The onely example that hath any kinne with the decrée of Pope Pelagius for his superioritie euer Metropolitans is that out of Gregorie touching the Bishop of Salonae a Metropolitan citie in the countrie of Dalmatia For he was accustomed in déede to be confirmed by the consent of the Pope as of his Archbishop to receyue a pall from him But thereof to conclude that all Metropolitans throughout the whole world were likewise subiect to the Pope it hath as much reason as if you should conclude that the Quéene of England appointeth Lieutenants throughout all Christendome because she appointeth a Lord Deputie in Ireland You are deceiued M. Hart if you thinke the Pope was swolne so bigge in the time of Pelagius His dropsy had made him to drinke vp much but not all He was become Archbishop of a Princely diocese but he was yet but an Archbishop He was not vniuersal Pope Patriarke of the whole world Hart. Your speech is absurd and doth confute it selfe in séeking to confute the Pope For if he had but a diocese how was he an Archbishop Sith a diocese is the charge committed to a Bishop an Archbishop hath a prouince And if he were but an Archbishop how had he Metropolitans vnder him Whereas a Metropolitan and an Archbishop is all one Beside that you graunted him to be a Patriarke for els the other Patriarkes must be his superiours to whom you made him equall So while you striue against him and go about to bring him vnder to bereue him of the supremacie you speak as though you were bereft of sense and reason and knew not what to say of him Rainoldes In déed as the names of Archbishop and diocese are vsed in our dayes and haue beene of some writers in ancient times also my spéech may séeme absurd who say that the Pope was but Archbishop of a diocese when he was Patriarke as I graunt But after the language that was then receiued when the second sort of Popes were at the best I speake the wordes of sense and reason For Iustinian the Emperour who as it is requisite in penning of lawes is wont to keepe the proper and vsuall spéech of his time and his raigne did fall into the time we treate off ordeined that if an Elder or Deacon were accused his Bishop should haue the hearing of the matter if a Bishop his Metropolitan if a Metropolitan his Archbishop And againe he prouided for
saith and he saith truly for sundry pointes of that he learned as namely that the people did and must receiue the sacrament with the Priest and that vnder both kindes Which sheweth by the way that your priuate Masse and Communion vnder one kinde was against the tradition and order of the Apostles by the iudgement of the Church of Rome and Popes them selues aboue a thousand yeares after Christ. But the making of crosses on the sacrament still in an odde number was so farre from being a thing deliuered by the Apostles that the Church of Rome had then begoon it lately if yet the Church began it and not Pope Hildebrand were rather the father first inuentour of that mysterie For Bishop Amalarius who liued two hundred yeares or thereabout before Hildebrand and did both know and reuerence the order of the Church of Rome hauing said that it sufficeth to make a crosse once vpon the bread and wine because Christ was once crucified addeth that it is not amisse to make it twise because he was crucified for two kindes of people that is the Iewes and the Gentiles Whereto he noteth farther that the Priest made two crosses with the host neere vnto the chalice to signifie that Christ was taken down from the crosse being crucified for two peoples And this which he reporteth of two was the order of the Church of Rome before Hildebrand came who controlled it as appéereth by his scholer vpon this reason that Christ had no wound in his side but one and therefore but one crosse must be made beside the chalice Which reason is so good that it may séeme straunge why the reformers of your Masse-booke haue kept the former order against the rule of Pope Hildebrand vnlesse perhaps they thought that Hildebrand misliked it not so much for that reason as for the number of two which number the sooth-sayers and sorcerers holâ— to be naught But hereby them selues haue opened their iudgement that not all which Hildebrand is said to haue learned vnder ten of his predecessours was the tradition of the Apostles And it is worth the noting how these mysticall blessings which at Trent were fathered on the Apostolike tradition haue lately got that parentage by the helpe of such as was Hildebrands scholer wheÌ„ before they séeme not to haue béene accounted so For Amalarius whom I named a man that was likely for zeale to speake the best for skill to know the most that might be said of the seruice and ceremonies of the Church he had read so much and trauailed so farre euen to Rome and that in embassage from the Emperour to conferre with the Pope about them yet this Amalarius speaking of the signe of the crosse which they vsed to make in consecratioÌ„ leaueth it in dout whether Christ made any when he did blesse the bread or rather thinketh he made none because the crosse at that time was not yet set vp but now saith he wee know that it must be made for S. Austin saith so Where it is not probable that he would haue grounded it on mans autoritie if he could haue said that either Christ had vsed it or though Christ vsed it not yet the Apostles had ordeined it No more then that after the testimonie of S. Austin he would haue iudged it sufficient to crosse the bread and wine once if he had thought that so many crosses as you make were to be required by S. Austins iudgement Hart. Thus you reproue vs as varying from S. Austin because we make so many What may we say of you who make none at all Who nether vse it in consecration of the holy sacraments nor signe your forheads with it nor set it in your Churches nor allow it in the sanctifying of meates and other creatures Though all these things were doon by the ancient Fathers in remembrance of him who dyed for vs on the crosse yea though Christ himselfe haue commended to vs the signe thereof by miracles as the storie of Constantine the Emperour doth witnesse who saw it in the element with these wordes writen by it In this signe ouercome and was charged in a dream to make the forme and likenes of that which he had séene and vse it as a defense against his enimies assaultes which he did accordingly and mightily subdued them by it But nether the vision of Christ vnto Constantine nor that and other miracles which haue béene wrought by it nor the practise of the primitiue Church and ancient Fathers can preuaile with your men but that they must séeke to raze out from among Christians so worthy and notable a monument of Christes passion And yet you will beare the simple people in hand that you are of the same religion that they were when you plucke down that which they did set vp and do cleane contrarie vnto them Rainoldes The signe that appeered to Constantine in the element was a signe of the name of Christ not of his crosse howsoeuer the coiners and crosse-maintainers of your Church do falsly paint it out For as Eusebius writeth vnto whom Constantine did report the thing and shewed him that ensigne which he had caused to be made in the likenesse thereof it was the forme of a speare standing straight vpright with a crowne at the toppe of it as it were a horne which did crosse the middest of the speare a slope So that it represented two of the Greeke letters 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which being the first letters of the name of Christ the name of Christ was signified by that signe to Constantine Thus he describeth it who saw it Hart. But out of dout he calleth it the signe or the monument of the crosse q also Rainoldes But him selfe sheweth that he called it so because it resembled some what the signe of a crosse For nether was it like the crosse of Christ fully which had an other figure and where he describeth it he saith in plaine termes that it was a signe of the name of Christ. Nether were those words that you rehearsed writen by it In this signe ouercome as your Doctor saith belike because he read it coyned in the cruseado so or in the porâ—igue but By this ouercome as if God shewing him the name of Christ should haue said vnto him that there is giuen no other name vnder heauen wherby he must be saued In the which meaning it seemeth that Constantine did vnderstand it also because he vsed afterward to cary in his helmet not the signe of the crosse but those two letters by which the name of Christ was represented to him Howbeit if it were so that not the name onely of Christ but his crosse too were meant by that signe as the Bishops tooke it who therupon taught Constantine the mysterie of Christ crucified yet nether that vision nor
Constantines victories nor other miracles wrought thereby nor practise of the faithfull in the primitiue Church doth proue that we haue doon amisse in plucking downe the signe of the crosse wherewith you enâ—â—ite vs or that we are not of the same religion that they were who did set it vp For tell me what thinke you of the brasen serpent which God commanded Moses to set vp in the wildernes Was it not a figure of the passion of Christ Hart. Yes But what of that Rainoldes And there were many miracles also wrought by it For when the Iewes were stoong by the fyerie serpents they looked on the serpent of brasse and were healed Hart. If they were what then Rainoldes Yet king Ezekias a man of the same religion that Moses was did breake it in peeces and he did well in it Hart. He brake the brasen serpent in péeces I graunt but that was because the children of Israel did burne incense to it Rainoldes So haue we pluckt downe the signe of the crosse because you burne incense to it M. Hart. Hart. Nay that we do not Rainoldes It is writen in your Masse-booke that in solemne Masses the Priest hauing made obeysance to the crosse doth incense it thrise Hart. But that is not to burne incense as the Iewes did For they had a superstitions estimation of the serpent putting trust and affiance in it Rainoldes So haue you a superstitious estimation of the crosse For you thinke it a speciall defense against the diuell and by your common phrase they do blesse them selues who signe their brestes with it and you carry about you crosses made of mettall with an opinion that you are the safer thereby as superstitious women in S. Ieroms time did the wood of the crosse Hart. If any doo it of superstition as those women did we reproue them with S. Ierom. But the Iewes did worship the brasent serpent as God and we doo not the crosse so Rainoldes If any do it as those women which your crossecariers doo they doo it of superstition But how did the Iewes worship the serpent as God Hart. S. Austin saith that they did worship it as an idole which is to make a God of it And Ezekias shewed the same in effect by that he called it nechushtan that is brasen-stuffe as if he should haue saide that it had no diuine power which they by errour thought it had Rainoldes The Iewes gaue the honour of God to a creature in that they burned incense to it And therefore Ezekias did call it brasen-stuffe as if we should call your roodes wooden-stuffe your Agnus-deis waxen stuffe your crucifixes and crosses made of copper copper-stuffe because you impart the honour of God to them by putting trust and hope in them And if the couetous man be called an idolater because he maketh mony his God not as though he thought the coyne to be God but because he trusteth to liue and prosper by it which confidence and hope he should repose in God onely then worship you the signe of the crosse as an idole because you trust to bee saued by it as in your Church-seruice you professe notoriously and so your selues confesse you worship it as God Wherefore if Ezekias be praised by God for breaking in peeces the serpent of brasse because the children of Israel did burne incense to it we who haue remoued the signe of the crosse because you put the hope of saluation in it may content our selues to bee dispraysed by men But if you say therefore that we be against the ancient Fathers in religion because we plucke downe that which they did set vp take héede least your speech doo touch the holy Ghost who saith that Ezekias did keepe Gods commandements which he commanded Moses and yet withall saith that he brake in peeces the serpent of brasse which Moses had made And if you will not learne this lesson of me yet learne it of the Canon law that if our predecessours haue done some thinges which at that time might bee without faute and afterwarde be turned to errour superstition we are taught by Ezekias breaking the brasen serpent that the posteritie may destroy them without any delay and with great autoritie Hart. The diuine worship with the which we honour the image of the crosse is proued by S. Thomas to be due thereto For the honour of an image is referred to that which the image resembleth and the motion of our minde is the same to the image of a thing as an image and to the thing it selfe Wherefore sith the crosse doth represent Christ who died vpon a crosse and Christ is to bee worshipped with diuine honour it foloweth that the crosse is to bee worshipped so too Yet you and your men are still obiecting to vs our honouring of the crosse as though we committed idolatry therein In good sooth Maisters ye are too young to controll the Church of Rome in her dooings Rainoldes So M. Harding telleth vs of the citie of Rome when we controll her stewes And in deede you haue almost as much reason to speake for the maintenance of this spirituall whooredome which you commit with the crosse as he for the carnal which they commit with Courtisans Now wel had it fared with the brasen serpent if Thomas had béene schoolemaister to king Ezekias For he would haue taught him that sith the brasen serpent did represent Christ and Christ was to be worshipped with diuine honour therefore the brasen serpent was to bee worshipped so too You are angrie when wee say that you worship the Pope as God Me thinkes you should graunt it Sure you might defend it by this Schoole-diuinitie For though he beare one way the image of the beast yet in that he is a man hee is an image of God whom he resembleth more liuely then any crosse or crucifix doth represent Christ. But to returne to the mysticall blessings of the Masse which you went about to fetch by S. Austin from the Apostolike tradition you sée that neither they nor incense nor lightes nor vestiments nor the rest of that suite of ceremonies are mentioned at all much lesse auouched to be Apostolike in that of S. Austin which your Iesuite groundeth on Hart. I know that S. Austin doth intreate rather of the substance of the Masse then of the ceremonies in that place But in the other which I cited he doth intreate of customes and so that he proueth the ceremonies of the Masse to haue come from the Apostles For of the thinges saith he which we keepe by tradition it is to bee thought that such as are obserued through the whole world were either ordeined by the Apostles them selues or by generall Councels Wherefore sith the ceremonies of incense lightes vestiments and other of the like sorte were not ordeined by generall Councels it followeth by S. Austin
point proueth the Papacy And what his iudgement was thereof I haue declared Now for them first who asked the aduise and counsell of the Pope I will tell you a storie which I pray consider of Theodosius the Emperour desirous to procure the peace of the Church consulted with Nectarius the Patriarke of Constantinople what way might best be taken for ending controuersies of religion The Patriarke imparted the matter to Agelius a Nouatian Bishop The Bishop to Sisinius a reader in his church The reader gaue aduise and counsel to the Patriarke Which the Patriarke liked of and shewed it to the Emperour the Emperour embraced it and dealt according thereunto Hart. You would inferre hereof that the auncient Fathers might aske the Popes counsell and yet not acknowledge him to be their supreme head Rainoldes True as the Emperour might of the Patriarke the Patriarke of the Bishop the Bishop of the reader Hart. The case is not like For it was the personal wisdome vertue lerning or faith of these men which made them to be sought to But that which made the Fathers séeke to the Popes was the prerogatiue of their office Rainoldes Wherein they could not erre as you heard say at Rhemes But you who distinguish the office of the Popes from their personall faith and giftes in this sorte must be put in mind that by the same reason Sergius the Patriarke of Constantinople sought to Pope Honorius in respect not of his personall wisedome vertue learning or faith but of his office too And so shall your selfe be forced to confesse that eyther the Pope may erre in consultations which he dealeth with by reason of his office as Pope Honorius did or the Fathers séeking to the Popes for counsell did séeke in respect of their personall giftes that they were learned and godly Pastours as many sought to Austin then to Caluin lately though neither of them were Pope Hart. Nay it is certaine that S. Ierom sought to Damasus for his office sake For he speaketh namely of the chaire of Peter that is the Sée Apostolike committed to Damasus Rainoldes But withall he speaketh of the inheritance of the Fathers that is the Christian faith which Damasus kept vncorrupted And therfore he sought to him as a godly lerned not as a Pastour only not for his office sake alone but for his person succéeding as in place so in doctrine to Peter Though in whatsoeuer respect and consideration Ierom sought to Damasus his séeking to be resolued in a point of faith doth not import soueraintie of power as I haue shewed Much les doth the counsell that Basill asked import it about asswaging of their troubles Least of all that Austin and the Bishop of Afrike who vnder shew of asking counsell of Innocentius in trueth gaue him counsell for feare least the Pelagians should haue seduced him to their errour Wherefore the auncient Fathers who sought aduise of Popes proue not the Popes supremacie No more doe they in déede who sought to further others or reléeue themselues by the Popes autoritie For autoritie power differ that such as are their brethrens superiours in the one may be their inferiours or equals in the other As wée agréed if you remember Hart. It may be so I graunt But they whom I named sought to Innocentius the first and other Popes as to supreme heads of all the Church in power not as to their superiours in autoritie only Rainoldes Their own wordes and déedes argue the contrarie For Chrysostome 14. being called into iudgement by his enemies namely by the Bishop of Alexandria others assembled in a Councell did appeale from them to a generall Councell and as himselfe speaketh thereof to iust iudgement Whereby hee declareth that the lawfull power of iudging his cause belonged to the Councell and not to the Pope Hart. But when he was depriued and cast out of his Bishoprike notwithstanding his appealing to the generall Councell he requested the Pope to write that those things being wrongfully done were of no force as in deed they were not and that they who did him such wrong might bee punished Rainoldes But in this request hée dealt with the Pope as with a member only of the generall Councell to which hée had appealed a member in power a principall member in autoritie For in praying him aboue the rest to write he shewed that he thought him to be of greater credit then other of his brethren But in appealing to them all ioyntly not to him alone hée shewed that the right of iudging the matter belonged not to him but to them in common Which is playner yet by that he saith farther of Bishops in seuerall that they are forbidden by lawes of the Fathers to take on thē the iudging of such as are without the limites of their diocese Wherefore the preeminence which Chrysostome gaue the Pope was of autoritie not of power The same I say of Basil or rather himselfe saith it desiring that the Pope would vse his own autoritie in sending men to succour them Hart. You doe vs great iniurie by this newe distinction of autoritie and power For Basil meant power when he named autoritie Rainoldes You will not say so if you weigh the grounde and circumstances of his spéech For the Easterne Churches being pestered with the Arian heresie by meanes of the Emperour Valens an Arian who persecuted the Catholikes the Churches of the West vnder Valentinian a Catholike Emperour did flourish with sinceritie of faith and faithfull Bishops Whereupon S. Basil conferring with Athanasius both Bishops of the East about their Churches state saith that the consent of the Westerne Bishops is the onely way meanes to helpe it in his iudgement For if they would shewe that zeale for our Churches which they did for one or two being taken among them selues in errour it is likely saith he that they should do vs good by reasō that the rulers would regard and reuerence the credit of their multitude the people euery where would folow them without gainsaying Now this whereto he wished a multitude of Bishops first is the same that afterward he sought to the Pope for Whom he prayed to deale himselfe in the matter vse his own autoritie in choosing and sending fit men to that purpose because the Westerne Bishops could not doe it easily by a cōmon conference and decree of Councell So that he desired a Councels aide chiefly because their consent multitude had greater credit as in his epistle to the Westerne Bishops themselues he saith againe It was not power therefore but credit and reputation that S. Basil meant in suing to be succoured by the autoritie of the Pope Which you must néedes graunt vnlesse you wil say that he thought the Councell to bée aboue the Pope in power against your Trent-doctrine of the Popes supreme power ouer the whole Church As
as our ancestours vnder the Pope as Ionathan Nor was it such turpitude for the nation of the Iewes to haue had religion reformed by two Kings though in a few yeares it caused sundrie alterations as for the nation of the Romans to haue kept idolatrie without alteration vnder high Priests for a thousand yeares together Hart. Well Whatsoeuer opinion you haue of the Princes supremacie your own Centurie-writers coÌ„trol it in generall Caluin in particular the grant thereof to King Harrie For they both reproue the title of head And it is al one to be head of the Church to be chiefe gouernour of causes ecclesiasticall Rainoldes Caluin reproueth not the title of head as the Protestants graunted it but that sense thereof which Popish Prelates gaue namely Steuen Gardiner who did vrge it so as if they had meant thereby that the king might do thinges in religion according to his owne will and not â—ée theÌ„ dâ—on according to Gods wil. In like sort is the headship of the Church controlled by the Centurie-writers For they say that Princes ought not to be heads to coine formes of religioÌ„ frame new points of faith as Ieroboam did his calues So what they mislike yâ— we grant not to Princes What we grant to Princes that they mislike not Nay the Centurie-writers do giue the same supremacie to our Prince that we do nor only to ours but to al in general Which Caluin also doth Nor only hée or they but the reformed Churches whole with one consent I might say euen your owne men too Yea euen your selfe too M. Hart. For when vpon occasion of spéech that I had with you touching this poynt before we did enter into conference by writing I brought you M. Nowels answere to Dorman wherin he hath confuted pithily and plainly the cauils which your Maister blancheth out of Caluin and the ancient Fathers against the Quéenes supremacie requesting you to reade it ouer you told me hauing read it that you had mistaken our doctrinâ— of that point and that if we gaue the Prince no greater soueraintie then M. Nowell doth you did agrée with vs. Hart. Indéed I had thought so do many take it that you meant to giue as much to the Prince by the title of the supremacie as we do to the Pope Where you giue no more me thinkes by M. Nowel theÌ„ S. Austin doth who saith that Kings do serue God in this as Kings if in their own realme they coÌ„mauÌ„nd good things forbid euil not only coÌ„cerniÌ„g the ciuil state of meÌ„ but the religion of God also And thus much I subscribe too Rainoldes Wil you procéede then to the later point wherein you would proue you sayd that the faith which we proâ—esse in England is not the Catholike faith Hart. I haue proued it alredy in part For the Catholike faith is the which we professe in the Church of Rome You professe not ye. As the points that you haue touched by the way of scriptures of traditioÌ„s of merits of sacrameÌ„ts of Priesthoode of the Masse the real preseÌ„ce the worship of Saints suÌ„dry others shew But I wil coÌ„fer no farder herof vnles I haue greter assuraÌ„ce of my life Rainoldes Assurance of your life to procéede in coÌ„fereÌ„ce by Gods grace you haue At least as great assurance as hetherto you haue had But you should rather say you wil conferre no farder vnlesse you had better assurance of your cause For that is the catholike faith which the Apostles did preach to al nations The Apostles preached that which is writen in the holy scriptures Therefore that which is writen is the catholike faith But the faith which we professe is all writen The faith which we professe then is the Catholike faith And this should appéerâ— as well in other pointes as in those alreadie touched if you would sift them The Lord grant you grace to consider of it that whatsoeuer become of your life temporall you may haue assurance of eternall life through knowledge of his holy truth SIX CONCLVSIONS touching THE HOLY SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH Proposed expounded and defended in publike disputations at Oxford by Iohn Rainoldes 1 The holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation 2 The militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine 3 The authoritie of the holy scripture is greater then the authoritie of the Church 4 The holy Catholike Church which wee beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen 5 The Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike Church 6 The reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes and common-weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome Ierem. 51.9 We would haue healed Babylon but she is not healed forsake her ô children of God and let vs goe euerie one into his owne countrey TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFVLL and reuerend in Christ the heads of Colleges and companie of students of the Vniuersitie of Oxford Iohn Rainoldes wisheth grace and peace from God the father and from our Lord Iesus Christ. WHen Anna the mother of Samuel had brought vp her child whom she had obtained of God with earnest prayers to put from her selfe the reproch of barennesse she consecrated him to God before Eli the Priest that he might liue and serue in the temple of the Lord. In like maner I desiring to consecrate to the temple of the Lord my Samuel as it were the first child of trauaile that God hath geuen to my barrennes haue thought good to present him to God before you fathers and brethren welbeloued in Christ who either are already or shall be put in trust with the charge of the temple to serue if it may any way the temple of the liuing God Perhaps a rash enterprise vndertaken somewhat more boldly then aduisedly chiefly séeing that it is so far inferior to the ripenes of Samuel And truely I haue hetherto béene stil of the minde that I had leiffer the things which I had brought foorth rather as vntimely fruites then perfit children should be kept within then come abroad into the light stay in the court of the temple then presse into the temple For I haue béen dealt with both oft and earnestly by my very frends that I would suffer to be printed and published as other sclender exercises made rather for the fence-schoole as you would say then for the field so chiefly my Orations which when I read the Gréeke lecture in our College I made to mine audience coÌ„cerning the studies of humanitie and philosophie Which yet I haue refrained to doo not of enuie for I haue addicted my selfe to wish well vnto the Church common wealth neither of vnkindnes as though I were not willing to gratifâ—e them whom I was greatly bound too but partly
Gods elect and chosen He answereth that the militant Church which is mentioned in the scriptures too containeth neither all the elect nor them onely And by this answere he saith he hath confuted the errour and heresie of the Hussites But therein he dealeth like them of whom the prouerbe is I asked for hookes they say they haue no mattokes But to returne to my purpose I haue thought good to publish my Conclusions euen in the same sort as they were set downe in verses and opened with suppositions according to the order of publike disputations of our Uniuersitie the rather for this cause that straungers might perceiue the kinde of our disputations which and all things els of our Uniuersitie are so debased by Bristow as if wisedom had béene borne with them alone and should dye with them Now these six Conclusions containe the chiefe fountaines and as it were the very foundations of the controuersies which we haue with the Church of Rome That the light thereof will be some helpe I trust to such as are not wilfully blinde to scatter Bristowes mistes and all the mistie cauils of Bristowes mates and complices For where it is certaine by manifest proofe as the Church of Rome it selfe doth acknowledge that the whole doctrine of religion and faith which leadeth the faithfull to saluation and life by the true and right worship of God is contained in Gods word the Papists to establish their superstitions and errours that are against the scripture diuide the worde of God into scripture and traditions that what they can not finde in Gods writen worde they may cauill that is was ordered by Gods traditionarie word so to terme it An old sleight and policie of the ympes of Satan wherewith first the Scribes and Pharises of the Iewes did craftily assay to beguyle our Sauiour Christ as the Euangelistes haue writen afterwarde the heretikes Tatian Valentinus Marcion and their felowes assayed in like sort to beguyle Christians as Ierom and Irenaeus shew And these are the parents of that corrupt opinion concerning traditions which are called Apostolike as by olde heretikes so by new The Roman Church embraceth the opinion as her owne childe litle considering that it is a bastard not conceyued by Christ but got by theft from old heretikes Unlesse perhaps she had it rather by adoption from Marcus Antonius who when the Senate had ratified the actes of Caesar he added to Caesars acts what he listed and would haue it to stand as sure as if Caesar him selfe had enacted it But that the opinion it selfe is a bastard whosoeuer begot it an heretike or an Heathen and therefore to be shut out of the Lordes assemblie which bastardes are forbidden to enter into my first Conclusion sheweth wherein I haue declared that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all thinges necessarie to saluation Now the Papists being cast downe from this bulwarke retyre vnto the Church and say thereof it can not erre that although their traditions that is their errours did not spring from Christ yet can they haue no faute because the Church doth hold them Herodotus reporteth that Cambyses king of Persia burning with wicked loue of his owne sister asked the Persian iudges whether hee might mary her by the law of the realme Whereto they made answere after consultation that they found no law which permitteth a brother to mary his sister but an other law they had found yet which permitteth the king of Persians to do what he list The Persian iudges offended if they fained this law the Persians if they made it But vpon that answere Cambyses did ioyne him self incesâ—uously in mariage with his sister The Heathens haue reproued this fact of his as wicked and is not the Papists â—act most like vnto it The Roman Church the Quéene of Baâ—ylon hath burned with a cursed desire not of her brother as Cambyses of his sister but of idols superstitions The aduise of Bishops the Roman iudges hath béene asked whether she might mary superstitions and idols by the law of Christ. The Bishops haue caused the scriptures to be serched and they finde no law whereby the worship of idols and superstitions is permitted but an other law they haue found yet which prouideth that the Church can not erre in decreeing any thing The Roman iudges offended who fained this law the Romanists who allow it But vpon this sentence their Church pretendeth mariage committeth adulterie with superstitions and idols in most abominable sort Yet Bristow layeth it in the foundation of his house and maketh mention of it as if it were the law of Austin yea of Christ but impudently and fasly that it may well appéere he neither knew what Christ said nor what Austin meant Wherefore to ouerthrow the ruinous walles both of the house and the foundation I haue set the second Conclusion against it which proueth manifestly that the militant Church may erre not in maners only but in doctrine too And that being settled doth séeme withall to settle strengthen the third wherein it is auouched that the holy scripture is of greater credit and autoritie then the Church Truly I should maruaile that it could euer come into the minde of any man to thinke otherwise had not S. Paul foretold that the man of sinne the sonne of perdition should sit in the temple of God exalt him self aboue God Which prophecie hath béene fulfilled in their eyes who haue séene Antichrist preferred before Christ they haue séene Antichrist preferred before Christ who haue séene the Church aduanced aboue the scripture For what is detracted from the scripture the worde of Christ that is in déede detracted from Christ the autour of the word And that which in shew is yéelded to the Church is attributed in truth to the Pope of Rome Both these thinges are euident by Albertus Pighius whose sayinges concerning the scripture and the Church although they bee very insolent and vngodly yet there were amongst them who liued before Pighius euen of the chiefetaines of the Romish Church as namely the Fathers of the Councell of Constance and Cardinall Cusanus who spake more insolently They who liued since haue kept the sense and substance of Cusanus and Pighius in that they geue a Princely or rather a tyrannicall autoritie to the Church for expounding the scripture as Cardinall Hosius dooth But they haue put fresh colours on it and qualified as it were the rigour of the spéeches in so much that Bristow treading the steppes of Hosius requyreth not greater autoritie for the Church but séemeth wel content to make it equall with the scripture Howbeit hee speaketh so I know not how that I dare not auouch he is of that mind For though he doo chalenge like obedience to them both like truth like priuilege to be frée from errour yet in that hée addeth
is it fully written by S. Iohn Let vs heare him selfe speake These things saith he are writen that ye may beleeue that Iesus is the Christ the sonne of God and that in beleeuing yee may haue life through his name In which wordes the summe and end of the gospell is set downe by Iohn the summe that we may beleeue that Iesus is the Christ the Christ that is the soueraine Priest Prophet and King the Sauiour of men the end that we beleeuing in Christ the sonne of God may through him haue life euen that which alone is called life rightly to wit eternall life Which things being so as the Euangelist him selfe teacheth it must néedes be granted that those things which are writen in the gospell are sufficient for vs both to the way of life and to life As much then as sufficeth to faith and saluation so much is writen in the gospell For if the things which are writen had not béene sufficient to faith and saluation there were mo thing◠which might haue bene writen so many as the world could not haue conteined But these were omitted by the spirit of God because the other were enough for his purpose For he giueth this reason why mo were not writen these things are writen that yee may beleeue and in beleeuing may haue life There is contained therefore in S. Iohns gospell so much as is sufficient to faith and saluation Then if S. Iohns gospell alone haue sufficient how plentifully hath Christ prouided for his Church as a most bountifull Lord for his houshold to which he hath giuen so many Apostles and Euangelists witnesses and expounders of the same doctrine Wherefore the scripture doth not onely teach the Church but also amply and plentifully teach it all things behoofull to saluation For although the substance of the Christian faith be single and the same wherewith as with meate the seruants of God are fedde to life eternall yet as the ages of the seruants differ and in ages different their cases differ too so was it méete there should be sundry sortes and waies to diuide that meate and as it were to season it for ech one his part as it might best agrée with him Whereof that we might haue a true liuely paterne set foorth by Christs owne spirit in the word of life for the féeding of the faithfull therefore hée gaue sundry woorkemen so to terme them and writers of his faith that although they deliuered all the same foode yet they did not dresse it all in one sort And so it cometh to passe that in those writers of the faith of Christ both the vnitie of doctrine in the diuersitie of deliuering yeldeth a swéete tast in the spirituall mouth of the godly minde and the manifold vse ministreth holesome nourishment to euery mans stomake the euident plainnesse in the groundes of faith maketh that euen they who are of deintiest mouthes can not refuse it for the toughnes and the hidden wisedome in the secretes of scripture both trieth the strongest and satisfieth them who are sharpest set and to say that in a word which no wordes can expresse enough the infinite treasures bring infinite fruits to the faithfull to procure them a blessednes that is exceeding great and infinite Wherefore it is a thing so cléere and so sure that those secretaries of the holy Ghost ioyned togither doo open to the Church in the holy scriptures all things behoofefull to saluation that he who knoweth it not may be iustly counted ignorant hée who acknowledgeth it not lewde hée who dissembleth it vnthankfull hée who denieth it more then wicked For what can there be in cléerenesse more euident or in peise more weightie or in strength more sound or in truth more certaine then that generall principle which S. Paul deliuereth not as Moses of the law not as Iohn of the gospell but of the whole scripture and holy writt to Timothee The whole scripture is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teach to improue to correct to instruct in righteousnes that the man of God may bee furnished throughly furnished to euery good worke Thus if you demaund of what autoritie scripture is it came from God by inspiration if you regard what vse it hath it teacheth improueth correcteth instructeth if you would sée to what end it is that the man of God may be furnished Our dutie in Christ Iesus is faith woorking by loue Faith embraceth sound doctrine loue requireth a godly life Soundnes of doctrine is held if true things be taught and false refuted Godlines of life is kept if we fly from euill and folow good But the holy scripture teacheth the truth improueth errour correcteth iniquitie instructeth to righteousnes as it appéereth by the Apostles wordes Therefore it setteth foorth a mans whole dutie in Christ Iesus that is as I suppose so much as sufficeth to saluation For it is not onely profitable to these things as some doo mince the matter but sufficient too in so much that it is able to make a man wise to saluation through faith and to furnish him Yea to furnish what maner of man the man of God that is the Lordes interpreter the Minister of the worde the teacher of the Church the Pastour of the flocke euen Timothee himselfe much more the flock of the faithfull in whom so great furniture of wisdome is not necessary Howbeit the Apostle neither so contented with saying that the man of God may be furnished addeth to beat the absolute perfection of the scripture into our mindes and memories with as many reasons as he vseth wordes that the man of God may be furnished throughly furnished to euerie good worke Whereupon it foloweth that there is nothing at all that can be wished for either to soundnes and sinceritie of faith or to integritie and godlines of life that is to mans perfection and the way of saluation which the scripture geuen by inspiration of God doth not teach the faithfull seruantes of Christ. It is the iudgement therefore of the holy Ghost whose sentence I defend as I am bound by duetie that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation Here if some perhaps desire the testimonies of the Fathers though to what purpose sith ye haue heard the Father of Fathers notwithstanding if any would heare the scholers iudgement when he hath heard the masters he shall heare the iudgement not of this or that man of whom he might dout but of the whole Church and of all the Saints For they with one agréement and generall consent haue termed the bookes of scripture Canonicall of the word Canon which signifieth a rule because they containe a worthy rule and squire of religion faith and godlines according whereunto the building of the house of God must be fitted Which opinion touching the Canon of the scripture allowed by Andradius himselfe the chiefest patrone of the Popish faith hath béene
and our Church doth hold The third Councell of Carthage which therein the Councel of Trent subscribeth to did adde the bookes of Maccabes the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon The Councel of Nice appointed boundes and limits as wel for the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction as for other Bishops The Councell of Lateran gaue the soueraintie of ordinarie power to the Church of Rome ouer al other Churches The Councell of Constance decréed that the Councell is aboue the Pope and made the Papall power subiect to generall Councels Which thing did so highly displease the Councell of Florence that it vndermined the Councell of Basill and guilefully surprised it for putting that in â—re against Pope Eugenius Upon the which pointes it must needes be graunted that one side of these generall Councels did erre vnlesse we will say that thinges which are contrarie may be true both Wherefore to make an end sith it is apparant by most cléere proofes that both the chosen and the called both the flockes and the Pastours both in seuerall by them selues and assembled together in generall Councels may erre I am to conclude with the good liking I hope of such as loue the truth that the militant Church may erre in maners and doctrine In the one point whereof concerning maners I defend our selues against the malicious sclanders of the Papists who charge the Church of England with the heresie of Puritans impudently and falsly In the other concerning doctrine I doo not touch the walles of Babilon with a light finger but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue Whose intolerable presumption is reproued by the third Conclusion too wherein it resteth to be shewed that the holy scripture is of greater credit autoritie then the Church And although this be so manifestly true that to haue proposed it onely is to haue proued it yet giue me leaue I pray to proue it briefly with one reason I will not trouble you with many All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth some wordes of the Church be the words of errour But he that telleth the truth alwayes is more to be credited then he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more then is the Church That all the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth it is out of controuersie For the whole scripture is inspired of God and God can neither deceiue nor be deceiued That some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour if any be not perswaded perhaps by the reasons which I haue brought already let him heare the sharpese and most earnest Patrone of the Church confessing it Andradâ—us Payua a Doctor of Portugall the best learned man in my opinion of all the papists reherseth certaine pointes wherein Councels also may erre euen generall Councels in so much that he saith that the very generall Councel of Chalcedon one of those four first which Gregorie professeth him selfe to receiue as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell yet Andradius saith that this Councell erred in that it did rashly and without reason these are his own wordes ordeine that the Church of Constantinople should be aboue the Churches of Alexandria and Antiâ—â—he Neither doth he onely say that the Councell of Chalcedon erred and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell but he addeth also a reason why Councels may erre in such cases to weete because they folow not the secret motion of the holy ghost but idle Blastes of vaine reportes and mens opinions which deceiue oft A Councell then may folow some times the deceitfull opinions of men and not the secret motion of the holy ghost Let the Councels then giue place to the holy scriptures whereof no part is vttered by the spirit of man but all by the spirit of God For if some cauiller to shift of this reason shall say that we must not account of that errour as though it were the iudgement of the generall Councell because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approue it I would request him first of all to weigh that a generall Councell and assemblie of Bishops must néedes be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop so that what the greater part of them ordeineth that is ordeined by the Councell next to consider that the name of Church may be giuen to an assemblis of Bishops and a Councell but it can not be giuen to the Bishop of Rome lastly to remember that the Bishop of Rome Honorius the first was condemned of heresie by the generall Councell of Constantinople allowed and approued by Agatho Bishop of Rome Wherefore take the name of Church in what sense soeuer you list be it for the company either of Gods chosen or of the called too or of the guides and Pastours or be it for the Bishop of Rome his owne person though to take it so it seemeth very absurd the Bishop of Rome him selfe if he were to be my iudge shall not be able to deny vnlesse his forhead be of adamant but that some of the Churches words are wordes of errour Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanistes them selues be forced to confesse both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous and that the scripture saith nothing but cleere truth shall there yet be found any man either so blockishly vnskilfull or so frowardly past shame as that he dare affirme that the Church is of greater credit and autoritie then the holy scripture Pighius hath doon it in his treatise of the holy gouernment of the church Where though he in 〈◊〉 â—â—llify with gallant salues his cursed spéech yet to build the tower of his Church and Antichrist with the ruines of Christ and of the holy scripture first he saith touching the writings of the Apostles that they were giuen to the church not that they should rule our faith and religion but that they should bee ruled rather and then he concludeth that the autoritie of the church is not onely not inferiour not onely equall nay it is superiour also after a sort to the autoritie of the scriptures Plinie reporteth that there was at Rome a certaine diall set in the field of Flora to note the shadowes of the sunne the notes and markes of which diall had not agreed with the sunne for the space of thirty yeares And the cause thereof was this as Plinie saith that either the course of the sunne was disordered and changed by some meanes of heauen or els the whole earth was slipt away from her centre The Church of Rome séemeth to be very like this diall in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territorie to shew the shadowes of the sunne euen of the sunne of righteousnes that is of Christ but her notes and markes haue not agreed with Christ these many yeares togither Not that
Christ most holy Finally sith God hath called the holy church not out of this or that countrey not out of this or that people but out of all nations spred through the whole world for that cause the church is intitled Catholike that is vniuersall not Iewish not Roman not English not of one people or prouince but vniuersall and Catholike coÌ„pacted as it were into one body out of all sorts of estates sexes ages nations Iewes Heathens Greeks Barbarians bond and free men and wemen old and young rich and poore For both the old Church before the birth of Christ which saw the day of Christ to come and was saued did gather children of God vnto her selfe at first out of any people afterward when the grace of God shined chiefly among the people of Israel she did ioyne conuertes to Israel out of the rest and much more the new Church called since Christ was borne hath enlarged her tabernacle as Esay the Prophet speaketh to all nations beginning at Ierusalem Iudaea Samaria and going forward thence euen to the vttermost endes of the earth For God hath not called the circumcised Iewes alone to be his Church as the time was when the Apostles thought through a litle ouersight the Iewes in our dayes haue too presumptuously wéened but Christ being crucified hath broken the stoppe of the partition-wall and is become the chiefe stone of the corner on which a dooble wall ariseth and as Dauid prophecied the Egyptian the Babylonian the Tyrian the Aethiopian the Philistine are borne in Sion and as the Elders in whom is represented the company of the faithfull doo sing vnto Christ Thou hast redeemed vs to God by thy blood out of euery kinred and tounge and people and nation and hast made vs kings and priests to our God we shall raigne vpon the earth Wherefore sith the church which the holy scriptures doo commend vnto vs betokeneth the company and assembly of the faithfull whom God hath chosen Christ hath sanctified and called out of all nations to the inheritance of his owne kingdome the holy Ghost who spake by the Prophets and Apostles doth warrantise me to resolue on my Conclusion that the holy catholike church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods electâ—and chosen You maruell perhaps why I propose this article of the ChristiaÌ„ faith to be discussed by disputation as though either any man stood in dout of it or things not douted of were to be handled as doutfull But if you consider that the true meaning therof which I haue opened most agréeable to the scripture most comfortable to the faithfull is condemned and accursed by the standerd-bearers of the church of Rome you will cease to maruell For in the Councell of Constance in which they condemned Iohn Husse for an heretike they condemned these two sayings as hereticall to be burned with him that there is one holy vniuersall Church which is the whole company of them that are predestinate and that the Church as it is takeÌ„ in this sense for the company of them that are predestinate is the article of our faith Which sayings of his to be counted vngodly it séemed strange to me and so much the more because I perceiued that the Fathers whose words the Papistes will séeme to make great account of when they serue their purpose did vse the same squire to measure out the Catholike church by For Clemens Alexandrinus dooth expresly call it the company of the elect into which are gathered the faithfull and iust whom God did predestinate before the creation of the world Likewise Ambrose hauing said that the honour of God the father is in Christ and in the church defineth the church to be a people which God hath vouchsafed to adopt to him selfe Furthermore Gregorie the Bishop of Rome affirmeth that all the elect are contained within the compasse and circuite of the church all the reprobate are without it And Bernard declaring the church to be the company of all the elect which company was predestinate before the world began doth touch it as a mysterie which he had learned of Paul and saith that he will boldly vtter it As for Austin a man of sharpest iudgement of them all he neither acknowledgeth any city of God but this elect church in his most lerned worke touching the citie of God and in another touching the catechizing of the vnskilfull he saith that all the holy and sanctified men which are which haue been which shal be are citizens of this heauenly Ierusalem and in another touching baptisme against the Donatists against whom he vrgeth the Catholike church most he confesseth that those things in the song of songs the garden inclosed the fountaine sealed vp the lilie the sister the spouse of Iesus Christ are meant of the holy and righteous alone who are Iewes inwardly by circumcision of the hart of which holy men the number is certaine praedestinate before the foundation of the world Wherefore if the Prelates of the Romish Church had had any reuerence I say not of the scriptuâ—es ouer which they play the Lordes as they list but of the Fathers of whom as of orphans they beare men in hand that they haue vndertooke the wardship they would neuer haue wounded or rather burnt in Husses person Clemens Alexandrinus Ambrose Gregorie Bernard and Austin who taught the same point that is condemned in Husse namely that the holy vniuersall Church is the whole company of the elect of God But it is I sée an vndouted truth which a learned man liking the Popes religion but not the Popes presumption hath set downe in writing that amongst the Popes and men like to Popes it is a sure principle If wrong he to be doon it is to be doon when thou maist get a kingdome by it For they wrest the holy catholike Church taught vs in the Creede from the right meaning to the intent they may be kings hoyse vp the sayles of their owne ambition in as much as they apply it like vnskilfull men if they doo it ignorantly impious if wittingly they apply it I say not to the Catholike Church but to the militant nor to that as it is choseÌ„ but as it is visible mingled with hypocrites and vngodly persons The cause why they do so is that all Christians by reason they beleeue the holy Catholike Church may be induced to thinke that the visible Church must be held for Catholike and a visible monarchie must be in the visible Church and the Pope is Prince of the visible monarchie and all Christians must be subiect to him as Prince For this to be the marke whereat the Popes shoote it is as cléere as the light by the verie Extrauagants as they are termed of the Canon law in that royall decrée of Boniface the eighth beginning with these wordes One holy Catholike Church Where from one
or the hauing of it corrupted In the which respect Christ who giueth charge that his sheepe be fedde chargeth that they be taught to obserue those thinges which he commanded his Apostles And Peter hauing shewed that the faithfull are begotten a new by Gods word exhorteth them to desire the milke of the word the sincere milke not corrupt with any trumperie that they may grow thereby And they who are warned to heare the Pharises sitting in the chaire of Moses are warned to beware of the leauen of the Pharises Wherefore a church that will be whole and sound must neither be famished with want of Gods worde nor haue it corrupted But the church of Rome doth bring in both corruption and want of the worde nor onely bring them in but also maintaine them obstinatly as wholesome The church of Rome therefore is not whole and sound nay she séemeth rather to be madde frantike For she bringeth in corruption of the worde to beginne with that by mingling and adulterating the word of God with mans word not one way but sundrie First in that she giueth autoritie canonicall that is diuine autoritie to the bookes called apocrypha which are humane Against the truth of the holy scripture which is gainsaid flatly by certaine pointes in the apocrypha against the cléere euidence of thinges therein recorded which by their repugnancie one vnto another doo shew that men were autours of them against the consent iudgement of the church of the old church wholy and of the best part of the new Secondly in that she receyueth traditions of men with equall reuerence and religious affection as she doth the scripture As though the holy scripture the most exact perfect squire of Gods will and rule of righteousnesse and wisedome sufficed not for faith and maners or the spirit of God could gainsay him selfe which must be imported by this of traditions some whereof do fight one against another some against the scripture In sooth this point is handled with a dutifull care and regarde of scripture which hath no greater reuerence at Rome then traditions and that all traditions are not obserued there it is playne by the Fathers whom them selues alleage Thirdly in that she willeth the Latin translation of the Bible commonly called S. Ieroms to be receiued throughout as sacred and canonicall and not to be refused on any pretense Whereas yet to let go the iudgement of S. Ierom other ancient Fathers the Papists them selues such as are most expert in the toungs amongst them acknowledge that translation to haue missed sometimes the meaning of the holy Ghost and not the words onely Euen Pagninus namely in the old testament Budaeus in the new Andradius and Arias Montanus in them both Fourthly in that about expounding of the scripture she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof which are against the sense that her selfe holdeth or against the Fathers consenting all in one Whereby it falleth out that the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost shall be refused often but meanings and senses deuised by men though crossing one an other yet if they be currant for the time and practised as a Cardinall saith shall go for authenticall the baggage which the Schoole men haue sâ—iled Diuinitie with out of the Philosophers puddles and their owne shall be accounted holy the things which some Fathers haue handled more soundly shal be set aside as humane inuentions though they agrée with Gods word but other in the which they were ouerséene through weaknes of naturall affection or reason shall be approued as Gods worde though they procéede from mans fansie Fifthly in that she coopleth with the commandements of God the commandements of the church that is to say of men and that is more she coopleth therewith these commandements not as things indifferent but as necessarie to saluation So what soeuer filth deuotion as it is named indéede superstition hath brought or shall bring in that must be déemed to be pure religion and in vaine shall the Lord be worshipped of vs as of the Iewes in olde time with the commandements of men and good intentes as they call them which are abominable to God shall be preferred before obedience voluntarie religion condemned by the scriptures shall be taken vp as a most holy seruice of the Lord. Last of all in that she appointeth images to be had in churches for the instruction of the people as bookes so one supposeth which idiotes may reade in O miserable idiotes the instructing of whom is committed to a stocke which instructeth to vanities whose teacher is an image that is a teacher of lyes if we beléeue the Prophets And is it any maruell if they be naughtie scholers whose masters are dumbe idols the doctours of errours The church of Rome therefore hath brought in such corruption of the word of God what by the apocrypha what by traditions what by faultes of the translation what by the sense of her holding what by commandements of the church what by the teachers of idiotes that she séemeth to haue mingled the sustenance of life not with filth but with poyson and the wine of God not with water but with venoome and the bread of Christ not with leauen but with rats-bane or rather if I might speake so mens-bane As for want of Gods word which is the other cause of sicknesse how wretchedly she hath pined her children therewith our auncestours felt by long experience and aged men may remember and histories of the church doo witnesse and they who are vnder the Popish yoke know For though she permitted sometimes in some places perhaps a small parcell of the word of God if I may call that Gods word which sauoured more of mens deuises then of God to be touched in the presence and assembly of the people by common cryers preachers such as they were yet she hath not onely not permitted to Christians but also hath hindered with no lesse impietie then inhumanitie yea and hindereth still that abundance and plentie which they ought to haue as it is writen Let the worde of Christ dwell in you plenteously with all wisedome For whereas this plenty is gotten obteined by two speciall meanes to weete by hearing by reading the one commanded all in Church-assemblies publikely the other allowed priuatly to euery man at home both vsed and approued by the rules of the holy Ghost and the practise of holy companies and the iudgement of holy churches our Romanists pretending that horrible confusion will ensue thereof and the church of Christ shall be like to Babylon not to Ierusalem as Cardinall Hosius saith if the holy scriptures be read in mother toongs doo kéepe them sealed vp in a straunge toong and sound them out so in their Church-assemblies that
fitter to subuert then to finde the trueth in the pleas of lawiers who bring in sleights of falshode and fraud against innocencie stop vp the waies of iudgement beate down the simplicitie of trueth in dilatory shifts and other such instruments of making gaine by suites which came from the lawes but from the lawes of Iustinian as Bernard saith not of the Lord. These are the lawes then which the Pope vseth and vseth to what end which is the last point He vseth them not to furder the saluation of Gods people but to satisfie if yet a horseleach might be satisfyed his owne and his Courtiers vnsatiable couetousnesse ambition and lust For what hath the outragious tyranny of the beast respected els but that in the Church-offices Church-censures and Church-causes Why hath he withdrawen suites from other places to the Court of Rome Why hath he reserued cases to him selfe Why hath he dispensed with lawes at his pleasure why hath he made and vnmade them He hath taken into his own hands the elections of Bishops from them whom they belonged to The Christian ministers magistrates and people he hath robbed and spoyled of their due and right He hath committed the féeding and guiding of the flock of Christ to brute and beastly creatures He hath let and set the charge or the commoditie rather of churches as he would himselfe and to whom he would by presentations preuentions prouisions reseruations translatiōs permutations aduousons commendaes He hath ordeined Pastors without a roome of Pastorship Ministers without a functiō benefices without cure sacrileges without punishment The goods of the church that is the liuing of the Pastors and maintenance of the poore he hath impaired with pensions embesilled with first fruites made away with appropriations seazed on with sundry wrongs and spent them wastfully with lustes to the common out-cries of men reprouing him for pride for riot for extortion and for simony He hath not permitted the causes of the church to be debated and decided there where they arose as equitie as reason as peace as the iudgement of Councels and Fathers would he should haue doon but he hath remoued them thence to be heard and determined at Rome what by reseruing of cases to him selfe what by fetching matters with the fishers signet what by exempting men from their Ordinaries what by allowing appeales from all coastes to the Lord Apostolike The censures of the church in excommunication ordeined to cut the wicked off as rotten members from the company of Christians he hath vsed and exercised not against the wicked of whom a sinke hath flowed of old time to Rome and ouerfloweth it still not against theeues of whom a Pope witnesseth Rome is made a denne not against murderers for whom there is a sanctuary in the very houses of Cardinals at Rome not against adulterers whose offense was punished with death by the old Romans now they are toyed with not against whoores which set themselues to open sale vnder the Pope who playeth the baude and gaineth by it not against whooremongers whom he preferreth somewhere before maried persons and leacherie before chastitie which the Canonist noteth as a woonderfull case but he hath exercised it against Emperours Princes States and nations that would not serue him at a beck against any magistrate that did but lay hands vpon a clergy-man against any Christian that denied his parish-priest a little tithe against whole assemblies and companies of the faithfull who worshipped as Paul the God of their fathers after that way which Papistes call heresie beleuing all things which are writen in the law and the Prophets Whom he with most vilanous cruelty and treachery as if they had béen shéepe appointed to the slaughter hath ridde away by torments by fire by sword not himselfe for he came not into the iudgement hall least he should be defiled but he hath deliuered them to Pilate to be crucified and when the streames of water did flow with blood at Paris old men and maidens and babes being murdered without all respect of sex or age or state he sang a song of ioy for the French mariage and celebrated with bonfyres and processions at Rome a most outragious act of more then Scythian barbarousnes What should I recken vp his tyrannical lawes wherewith he hath oppressed the Church intolerably Of single life imposed on ministers of the word of auricular confession of the choise of meates apparell and daies of the new and strange canonizing of Saints of pilgrimages to holy land of the vowes of Moonkes and Nunnes of the state and rites of mariage of innumerable ceremonies partly vnfruitfull partly foolish partly impious whereof some sprang from heathens some from the Iewes and some from heretikes What should I say of his wicked dispensations if yet they deserue the name of dispensations and not as Bernard rather doth call them dissipations wherwith there is nothing so holy and religious which he hath not polluted nothing so profane which he hath not permitted that a brother may mary his own brothers wife an vncle his sisters daughter that Church-offices and liuings may be geuen to boyes to Simoniacall marchantes to vnlerned persons and such as are vnfitte for them that one man may haue a pluralitie of benefices that he who hath the benefice néede not attend the office the steward not prouide meate for Gods houshold the seruant and minister not doo the worke of God the angel and messenger not shew the wil of God the shepheard and pastour not féede the flock committed to him that subiects may be discharged of their oth and fealtie licensed to withdraw allegiance from their Prince yea take armes against him yea lay violent hands on the anointed of the Lord that promise may be broken with God and with men that abominations most horrible may be committed that all things diuine and humane may be peruerted right and wrong heauen and earth lawfull and vnlawfull may be confounded together And can it be douted but that this so monstrous so pestilent so misshapen foulnesse and corruption of lawes and of discipline was instituted and inducted by this king of Rome not to set forward the saluation of the Church but to fill his gréedy appetite of gold and lust of dominion Doo not his own Fryers witnesse that all things Priestes Churches altars sacraments crownes in Peters fold Fire incense praiers heauen and God are set out to be sold Doo not his Courtiers allow of their iudgement who say that the pompe of the church would be abated which he sought to increase with anoyance of religion Doo not q Cardinals acknowledge that Christians are wyped of their goods and substance by first