WHIT. pag 272. It the Arrians or any other heretike can proue the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures they may answere the same which we doe for euery Church which holdeth the Apostles doctrine may professe that all cities village◠〈◊〉 which were religous were seasoned with their doctrine for in the Apostles time all Churches all cities all townes euery family embraced the same faith and religion which we now professe After that by little and little the purity of doctrine n DVR Tell me then from whom and in what age any doctrine of our profession was brought into the Church WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sunne is so very swift that we may see it hath moued though we cannot discerne the mouing of it so such is the mystery of your iniquity that I well perceiue by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apostolicall but the time when and the manner how they were brought in is not much to our purpose And it were too long to tell all yet heare some Your Romish Bishop a long time together was but equall to other Bishops thâ—ugh much was giuen to him for the excellency of that Church After the Christian world was diuided into foure Prouinces when he became the chiefe of the Patriarkes after this he began to challenge authority ouer other Churches and for that purpose counterfeited the Councell of Nice but he was repressed by the African Councell Then Gregory the great greatly inueyed against Iohn of Constantinople because he sought the name of vniuersall Bishop and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichrist Lastly Boniface the eight with a great summe obtained that honor of Phocas the Parricide And since that hee grew to that height that hee made not only Churches and Kings but the Christian Emperour himselfe to kisse his feete But see another example Time was when there were no images in Churches As that of Epiphanius proueth who rent a vaile in peeces because there was in it an image of Christ or of some Saint But in time they were receiued into the Church but no honor giuen them yet after that good Bishops brake them and cast them out againe as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Bishop of Massilia did whom he thus checketh for it In that you forbad them to be worshipped wee commend you but that you brake them we reprehend you Gregor regist lib. 7. Epist. 9. Lastly the second Nicene Councell decreed that they were not to be broken yea that they were religiously to be worshipped And thus hath it succeeded in other things as S. Paul did foretellâ—e saying The mysterie of iniquitie doth alreadie worke 2. Thess 2.7 began to be corrupted and diuers superstitions spread far and neare though the holy Fathers did as much as they could resist 2. Thess 2.7 vntill that mystery of iniquitie which tooke rooting in the very Apostles time spread it selfe o DVR VVhat can be spoken or imagined more wicked and impious WHIT. pag. 278. Then prophesied S. Paul impiously when he did so â—â—â—ell of a departing and that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God Is this any other then that the mysterie of iniquitie should spread it selfe ouer the Church by all the parts of the Church and at length possessed it wholy Yet Antichrist that man of sinne could neuer preuaile so farre but a great multitude of the Saints remained and those whose names were written in the booke of life did vtterly abhorre all those filthie and wicked superstitions of Antichrist For in the Church of Rome it selfe euen in the worth times of it yet many were euer found who worshipped the God of their Fathers and kept themselues vnpolluted with that horrible Idolatrie And this can histories of all times witnesse which I could now recite if it were needful and reckon vp to you many houses villages townes cities and countries where Christ had many and populous Churches The p DVR This is very false for in the FloreÌ„tine Councell the Emperour Paleolus together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ and imbraced the Romane faith yea and at this day they dissent from vs in few things as Icremy the Patriarke of Constantinople hath plainly written WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted Schismatickes or vvhy obey they not the Pope why came they not to the Councell of Trent the Pope by al meanes hath sought to haue theÌ„ subiect to him but they stil coÌ„temne him to his no small griefe It is true the Emperour the Patriarke and a multitude of Bishops came to the FloreÌ„tine CouÌ„cel They agreed vvith theÌ„ in many things â—â—â—hers they dissented your TraÌ„substantiation they vtterly renouÌ„ced At that time Iesaphus their Patriarke suddenly died Eugenius the Pope instantly vrged a nevv election They denied to make any till they came to Constantinople See you not hovv vvell they agree I haue a booke of yours not of Ieremies neither vvill a small thing make me beleeue it is his for both the Grecianâ— and particularly he hath giuer great approbation of our Churches as vve find it in his vvorkes published both in Greeke and Latin Greeke Church could neuer yet be brought to ioyne it self to your Church and it is 〈◊〉 opposite to you as euer our Church was And yet you so forge these things as if the Pope of Rome long agoe had had the whole world vnder his subiection Vntill that vnhappy Monke as you say by his incestâ—â—â—â— marriage had defloured a Nunne dedicated to God by 〈◊〉 soleâ—â—â—◠〈◊〉 or vntill that quarrelling Swâ—â—â— had câ—â—spired against his country or that infamous â—â—â—â—gate had vndertaken an vsurped authority in Geâ—â—â—â— So Campian go on to raile and reuile euery good man powre out the gall of your bitternes seeing you haue vndertaken to spend all your venemous darts vpon them Luthers name is written in the book of life and his memory shal euer be sacred among all good men and your reproaches shall not be able to pearce or wound him It is a true saying that a false repreach pierceth not the skinne you call him Monke your selfe is but a Frier now Monkes were euer accounted more honest then Friers But he by incestuous marriage deâ—â—oured 〈◊〉 Nomâ—â—â— dedicated to God by solemne vow q DVR But you goe against S. Paul who directly denounced damnation to those who will marry hauing broken their first saith which is vnderstood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of single life by incestuous marriages WHIT. pag. 281. But how proue you that the Apostle vnderstaÌ„deth by that faith the vow of virginity Nay the scope of the place sheweth vs the contrary for he forbiddeth that younger widdowes whom he perswadeth to marry should be taken into that office only such as were threescore yeares old who may well abstaine from marriages follow this calling Now if they be not of this age he sheweth
names of S. Peter S. Paul and of Apollo Besides the difference is very great not in the name but in things also As thus Let the question be whether the Crosse and Image of Christ bee to bee worshipped with the same kind of worship that Christ is adored withall Doth not this appertaine to faith But error in this will be plaine Idolatrie And yet you know some of the Schoolemen stand for it some against iâ— what of that question which hath exercised al Churches and Schooles so long Whether the Virgin Marie had originall sinne or was euer pure and without spot And infinite such differences I omit being matter of faith Thomist Scotist Dominican Franciscan or Iesuite when you haue answered me touching those I will answere as touching Luther You call the Throne of God to witnes that if there be any heauen at all it is proper to you In any case auouch this boldly and confidently though he that looks into your lines may wel thinke there is no heauen at all For neither will you enter into heauen your selues nor suffer those that would and the liues of those of your side are such as are far fitter for hell then for heauen I know not Campian what heauen you dreame of if you meane the eternall habitation of God and his Saincts I take God to witnes the maker of this palace and all the heauenly citizens that there no place can be for you Papists false Catholicks Iesuites As you haue deuised a new faith whereby you must enter thither so must you seeke a new heauen in this you may not be God graunt you may returne at length into the right way that leadeth into heauen Now being fallen from heauen The damned you looke into hell I wish Campian you could seriously view those infernall regions and places of the damned for though I do willingly thinke nothing but well of the dead yet I feare you should find too too many of theÌ„ that haue flourished in your Church in those places Certainely to say nothing of the rest your later Popes as those which were called by the names of Boniface Innocent Siluester Gregory Calixt Vrbane Alexander Adrian Pius Leo Paul almost all the rest were such as hardly can any man thinke they could enter into heauen And further I call Christ the only teacher of heauenly doctrine to record that such is your faith and religion that who so maintaines it fullie and wholie cannot raigne with Christ nor be partaker of that heauenly life and therefore not Iewes only Pagans Turks and notorious Heretikes are tormented in that fire that neuer goes out but Papists also of all Heretikes the most vile and odious Infinite are the soules of Christian men which haue been throwne headlong into this most wofull destruction these many hundred yeares by that Antichrist of yours who alone hath more inlarged that infernall kingdome then all Iewes Nerves Mahomets Arians Nestorians Macedonians Eutychians and the rest To you Campian I wish that saluation which coÌ„sisteth in the true knowledge of God and whom he hath sent Iesus Christ and desire from my hart that now at length you will renounce that Romane Antichrist with whom you haue conuersed and returne vnto Christ the onely giuer of eternall life from whom too long you haue banished your selfe But let vs consider what these damned ones will further your cause Jewes The Iewes you begin with and heere you reckon Hierusalem holy places our Sauiours Sepulcher the Manger Crosse and other 〈◊〉 from all which you cannot draw one argument for your purpose I denie not but great concourse of people thronged vnto the Citie partly to heare and see the Apostles whiles they liued and also to behold those places where Christ the Sonne of God had conuersed and at Ierusalem were many things which might moue and perswade men to goe thither that were any thing curiously inclined And although the Church then was too much addicted to these obseruations and as a Spouse exceedingly delighted with any remembraÌ„ce of her deceassed husband yet was she then farre from those superstitious p DVR VVee doe but imitate our fore fathers who did such things not of curiosity but religiously Hier. Epist ad Macel Pailon August Epist ad Clerum Pop. Hipp. WHIT. pag. 878. But Christ saith Joh. 4.21.23 If then I may worship God with great fruiâ—e in mine owne countrie I see not why I should go to Hierusalem or any other place on Pilgrimage And if I haue the authoritie of the Scriptures obiect not vnto mee Hierom or Augustine or any other whoÌ„ I cannot allow to speake without Scripture against Scripture And as for Fathers know you not that Gregorie Nyssen hath with pregnant reason confuted all superstitious peregrinations wâ—it not Bernard Monkes must search for the heauenly not earthly Hierusalem vvhich they must goe vnto not by their feete but by affections pilgrimages and dotings on Images which with you Papists is now vsuall Neither was this often recourse of Christians into those places the cause of the Iewes hatred vnto theÌ„ as you vntruly surmise but the Gospell was the true cause of difference betwixt them and vs. Rom. 11.28 They vrge Moses wee teach that Moses must giue place to Christ q DVR They hate vs not so much for our faith and profession as because wee haue spoiled them of their kingdome and Priest-hood and haue cast them out of their countrie WHIT. pag. 877. But what Christian euer spoiled the Iewes of their kingdome or thus expelled them Did Caligula Titus or Adrian destroy the Iewes for the religion of Christ And if they hated you because you haue bereft them of their Priest-hood why not vs for the Gospell which teacheth that the Priesthood is translated from the posterity of Aaron vnto Christ from hence only proceeds their hatred vnto vs but you are odious vnto theÌ„ in many respects r DVR Many Jevves haue become Catholikes but not Caluinists as Jeuer heard of WHIT. pag. 878. We desire they might be made Christians not Caluinists as our Churches hath many of them I will 〈◊〉 you one of whom it were strange you should not haue heard Emanuell Treâ—â—lius a Iew borne being brought to the religion of Christ whom Caluin loued dearely and his Catechisme he translated into the Hebrew tongue your manifold idolatries continually hindering them from receiuing the Gospell of Christ Remoue your idols that we all that are called Christians may worship God in spirit and truth The Iewes then will ioyne themselues vnto vs and will speedily in great multitudes betake themselues to the sheepfold of Christ The Iewes complaine they haue been destroyed by your Auncestors whom meane you the Romanes who raced the Citie vnder the conduct of Titus These were enemies of the faith of Christ will you be their posteritie or what other Auncestors haue you that haue been author of so great calamitie vnto the Iewes They haue I graunt
AN ANSWERE TO THE TEN REASONS OF EDMVND CAMPIAN THE IESVIT IN CONFIDENCE WHEREOF HE offered disputation to the Ministers of the Church of England in the controuersie of faith WHEREVNTO IS ADDED IN BRIEFE MARGINALL NOTES THE summe of the defence of those reasons by IOHN DVRAEVS the Scot being a Priest and a Iesuit with a reply vnto it WRITTEN FIRST IN THE LATINE TONGVE BY THE REVEREND AND faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church WILLIAM WHITAKERS Doctor in Diuinitie and the Kings Professor and publike Reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge AND NOW FAITHFVLLY TRANSLATED FOR the benefit of the vnlearned at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie into the English tongue by RICHARD STOCKE Preacher in London IN THIS TREATISE MOST OF THE Controuersies betwixt vs and the Church of Rome are briefely and plainely handled THE PRINCIPALL THINGS IN EVERY ANSWERE are gathered into a short summe and are set downe after the Epistle to the Reader Imprinted at London by FELIX KYNGSTON for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weauer 1606. TO THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE WILLIAM LORD KNOVVLES BARON OF GREYS TREASVRER OF HIS MAIESTIES Houshold and one of the Lords of his Maiesties most Honorable priuie Councell RIght Honourable the Religion or more truly the superstition of the malignant Church of Rome hath two speciall priuiledges aboue any religion in the world that either hath been or is The one that the professors of it may eate their God in the Sacrament the other that they may kill their King in their discontentment not only when he is an Heretike but as the law saith It is the reason giuen why Pope Zacharie deposed Hilaerike King of France and set vp Pipine in his place in Gratians decree part 2. caus 15. c. 3. Alius when he is Inutilis not for their turne and to their mindes The former hath bin the cause of the spilling of much blood in the daies of Q. Mary the latter of deposing of so many Kings and murthering of them in France and other places of Christendome and of the manifolde treasons in the daies of Queene Elizabeth of blessed and happie memorie And of two attempts against his sacred person and state in these three yeeres space The first was but a smoake the latter should haue been a sire the first was but the lightning the latter should haue been the thunderclap if he that is the God both of lightning and thunder had not gratiously preuented it Now the former of these points they defend euery where but the latter they a little blush to heare of not that it is not in their hearts but because their hands want power to effect it Yet that it is their doctrine and constant opinion hath been prooued in a small treatise which I presented to â—our I honor some few moneths ago And that so apparantly that they are at a default as the Councell was Act. 4.16 What shall we doe to these men for surely a manifest signe is done by them and is openly knowne to all them who dwell in Ierusalem and we cannot denie it So with a little change it may bee said by them What shall we say to these things for surely a manifest truth is told by them and it is openly knowne to all them who dwell in England and wee cannot denie it For though they haue endeuoured to answere it yet they haue not bin able to denie any thing in it Only these Charmers of the spirituall Egypt haue endeuoured to doe in like manner with their inchantments Exod. 7.11 But as all the Sorcerers miracles were not true but onely sleights and trickes by the helpe of Satan so are not these for the most part but only Iaglings and not able to deceiue any but fooles children either the ignorant or the seduced alreadie And in many things in effect they say as Iudah Gen. 44.16 How can wee iustifie our selues God and man hath found out the wickednes of vs all But not to digresse further at the time of my presenting of the foresaid Treatise to your Honour it pleased you to shew me Campians tenne Reasons lately taken in a Papists house translated into English wherewith many were peruâ—â—â—ed and others made to stagger in the way oâ— truth because of the goodly shew of truth that such gilded lies haue put vpon them by such cunning Orators Your Honour was then giuen to vnderstand that they were answered by diuers especially by that worthie and excellent Instrument of Gods glorie and one of the most glorious lights of our English Church Doctor Whitakers The book was shewed you but being written in the Latin tongue you wished for the m re benefit of the generall that it might be turned into English Your will was a commaund vnto me who professe I owe much dutie to your Honour and haue had lesse opportunitie than will to shew it for these few yeeres space I haue been towards you and now as soone as I could for my publike seruice of the Church in my poore ministerie I haue effected it Touching which if I may bee bold to deliuer what I thinke in few words thus much I say for Campians reasons I account him bold in all foolish in many things yet wise in this that in the beginning he tels vs they are his tenne chiefe Reasons Herein he is like to the foolish Painter who when he had made two pictures of two small beasts which after they were made nothing resembled those which he intended writ ouer their heads This is such a beast and this such an one So he hauing composed these tenne Rhetoricall speeches being so without reason which he intended they should haue had he calles them reasons lest the reader in perusing should haue mistaken them as he he had done in writing Doubtlesse at a conclusion Campian is an excellent fellow and if he could haue furnished as good premises as he hath enhaunced and amplified the conclusion he would haue put the answerer to much trouble But now we may say of them as Hierom said of the bookes of Iouinian Hieron aduers Iouinian lib. 1. It is harder to know what he holds Multo difficilius est nosse quam vincere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Portenta verborum descriptionis dedecus Vel per fâ—brem somniare vel a reptum morbo phrenetico Hippocratis vinculis alligandum Hieron cont Heluid cap. 3. Ne respondendo dignus fieret qui vinceretur Quia loquacitatâ—m facundia existimat Quia maledicere omnibus bonae consereatiae signum arbitratur Obscandalum fratrum qui ad cius rabien mouebantur than to confute his opinions not for any deepnes of matter but because he is as Hierome calles Iouinian one that loues to speak darkly For he hath as he speaketh bumbasted words deformed discourses and he that reades him aduisedly would thinke him either dreaming in some distempered fit of an Ague or perhaps rather sick of a frensie so that he had neede
Councell is not only Loâ—hers iudgement but Gersons and Panormitans Page 111 24 The reasons why Protestants went not to the Councell of Trent Page 112 25 Iohn Husse burned at the Councell of Constance contrary to the Emperours warrant Page 112 26 No promise made by the Emperour or any secular Prince may hinder the proceedings of Ecclesinsticall Iudges nota 27 Ecclesiasticall Iudges that is the Councell is abone the Emperour Page 113 28 Luther goes to the Councell vpon the Emperours word Pag. 114 The summe of the fifth answere touching the Fathers 1 It is a foolish brag of Papists to challenge all the Fathers for theirs and to be on their side when there is nothing lesse Page 124 2 The popish Denys was not the Denys Areopagite whom Paul conuerted to the faith and his hierarchie as noueltie Page 124. 125 3 Ignatius they boast so much of was a counterfet Page 125. 126 4 The argument is weake Ireneus is challenged by Protestants to haue written something vnsoundly therefore he is altogether on the Papists side he errect about the time of Christs preaching baptisme and death he was a Millenarie Page 126 5 Clemens taught that Christ did neither hunger nor thirst and that he taught but 〈◊〉 veare And that the Philosophers in hellexpeâ—ted Christs comming and being taught by him beleeued Page 127 6 Tertullian in his booke of prescriptions hath many things against the Romish church Page 127 7 The popish Hippolytus is counterfeit and his booke of Antichrist which gesseth that the Diuell was Antichrist Page 127. nota 8 Caussaeus excused for his censure of Cyprian by Nazianzenes report of him what he was in his youth Page 128 9 Cyprian and other Fathers corrupted the doctrine of repentance making it a kind of satisfaction they detracted from the death of Christ and the power of it Page 129 10 Chrysostome Nazianzene Ambrose and Hierome are not wholy on the Papists side because Luther and others censured them in some things Page 130 11 Papists are not the children of the Fathers but as the Pharisies were of Moses and the Iews of Abraham Protestants reuerence the Fathers but acknowledge but one father which is in heauen nota 12 Beza did Hierome no wrong if Erasmus said true of his censuring of S. Paul for want of moderation in ansâ—ering the high Priest and imputing some wants to Christ Page 131 13 Hierome often much wresteth the scripture Page 132 14 It is lawfull to prefer one man in the truth before all Fathers and Councels in error Page 132 15 Lent fast though auncient yet was it not ordeined by Christ or his Apostles the manner of obscruing it not the same in all Churches Page 133. nota 16 What fasts Protestants allow the same iudgement they haue which Augustine hath who knew not Lentenâ—fast Pag. 134 17 The popish Monks are maruelous voluptuous and liue in sensualitie far vnlike those who haue beene Page 134 18 Reliques of Saincts not burned nor their funerals remoued but their superstitions iniurious to God and his glory Pag. 135 19 Augustine in his booke of freewill doth not establish it but sheweth that sinne commeth from mans freewill not from God and therefore intitled his booke so Page 136 20 The Papists and Pelagians differ not much in freewill Pag. 137. nota 21 Necessitie is not opposite to the freedome of Will but to force and compulsion man lost not his will but the qualitie of it nota 22 Augustine esteemed much of antiquitie vnitie and succession if sincere wisdome and truth went with them else he preferred truth before them so do Protestants Page 138 23 Optatus confuted Donatists by the communion of the Catholique Church so are schismatikes to be delt with but not from the now Romish church which is no true church Pag. 138. 139 24 Anthonie and other Hermites like him haue not successors like themselues He accounted a Monastery for a Monke as water is to fish Page 140. nota 25 Prudentius vsed a poeticall libertie in his deuotions to Saincts Page 140. nota 26 Praying to Saincts had gotten great footing in the Church when Ambrose liued and he and other Fathers were corrupted by it Page 141. nota 27 Gregorie without any warrant called Images lay mens bookes Page 141 28 It is lawfull to breake downâ— Images by warrant of the word and examples in it and in the stories of the primitiue Church nota 29 Not Protestants but Papists reiect oftentimes the testimonie of the Fathers and flye to Councels pag. 142. Then Campians argument is not good Protestants reiect some things in the Fathers therefore they reiect their whole volumes for if it be good it will fall vpon themselues Page 142 30 Protestants haue reason to prohibite popish bookes being full of sedition and horesie specially seeing in Queene Maryes time they executed martiall lawe vpon any that had the bookes of Protestants Page 143 31 Bishop Iewel proued all the auncient Fathers to be against the church of Rome in disputing with Harding as he had assumed at the Crosse Page 144. 145 The summe of the sixt Answere touching the foundation of the Fathers 1. Campians reason is weake The Fathers haue studied the scriptures diligently and preferred them before all other writings therefore their exposition of them is sound and good not to be reiected without sinne Page 150 2 Hierome and Augustine dissent about the exposition of Gal. 2.11 Page 151 3 Not only euery particular Fathermaâ—erre but all of one age haue erred in a particular of setting vp Images in the Church Page 150 nota 4 Augustine Innocent and other Bishops thought it neceâ—sary the Eucharist should be giuen to infants Page 151. nota 5 Papists leaue the scriptures and search out and follow after mens inuention Page 152 6 The Papists allow the learned only to reade them but Christ commandeth all Page 152. nota 7 It is prooued against Duraeus that Christ hath commanded the simple to reade the scriptures and hath left to them the bookes of the scriptures Page 152. nota 8 Protestants will subscribe to the Fathers so far as they keepe them to the scriptures Page 153 9 Denys is against the priuate Masse Page 160 10 Priuate Masses cannot profit the absent Page 160. nota 11 In Iustine Martyrs time they gaue to the people both the bread and wine ibid. 12 Cyprian makes all the Apostles equall with Peter and denies that any appeales should be made to the Bishop of Rome ibid. and pag. 161. nota 13 Lactantius denies that true religion and Images can stand together ibid. 14 The heathen worshipped not their Images but the Gods expressed by them ibid. nota 15 Athanasius maketh the scriptures sufficient ibid. 16 Epiphanius condemneth all worshipping of the virgin Mary ibid. and pag. 162 17 The Papists do worship and offer vp sacrifices to the virgin Mary and other Saints Page 162. nota 18 Basil saith in his time the prayers of the Church were in a knowne tongue ibid.
Therefore you see there is no reason why for this cause Luther should either find fault with or feare the Epistle of S. Iames. And thus Augustine hath reconciled these two Apostles Iames and Paul that you may see that we are not broachers of any Noueltie Wherefore saith m DVR Augustine maketh nothing for you but against you WHIT. pag. 50. Augustinâ— affirmâ—th directly that S. Iames speaketh of a vaine and fayned faith which is as much as we here produce him for Augustine Aug. quaesâ— 85 quaeâ—t 76. the iudgements of the two Apostles S. Paul S. Iames are not contrarie each to other when the one saith a man is iustified by faith without workes and the other saith that it is a vaine faith which is without workes because S. Paul speakâ—th of workes which goe before faith Saint Iames of workes which follow faith at S. Paul himselfe sheweth in many places Therefore the Apostle S. Iames would not neither ought to detract any thing from the doctrine of iustification which Luther learned from S. Paul Yea all Papists and Iesuits shall sooner be torne asunder then this iudgement of Luther touching faith alone shall either quaile or be ouerthrowne From Luther you turne the edge of your speech to the whelpes of Luther for so you as an vncleane dogge terme men famous and flourishing with all good qualities But why you should so call them I well conceiue not vnlesse it be for that they neuer cease barking against your Bishops and Monkes and other Church robbers like your selfe But let vs heare what heynous thing those whelpes haue committed They haue on a suddaine put out of the true Canon of the Scripture Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of the Macchabees and many other bookes Say you of a suddaine Campian Is it true indeed that you are such a stranger in the writings of the auncient Fathers that you know not that long agoe these bookes were raced out of the Canon Looke I pray you into Hierome and out of him call to mind what antiquitie hath done That we may know saith n DVR Hierome saith that the former Churches did not receiue these bookes for Canonicall but denies them not to be Canonicall WHIT. pag. 52. Hicrome affirmeth not only that these bookes were not receiued of the fore-going Churches for Canonical but himself oâ—ten times denies them to be such and plainely cals them Apochâ—ypha bookes which he wâ—uld neuer haue done if the Church then had taken them for Canonicall yea and as Duraeus confesseth they were not so taken vntill â—lmoâ—t 70â— yeâ—res afâ—er Christ Hierome Hieron iâ— Prologo Galiato Whatsoeuer bookes are more then these they are to be accouÌ„ted among the Apochrypha Therefore Wisdome which commonly is called the Wisdome of Salomon and the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach and Iudith and Tobias and Pastor are not in the Canon Will you that are but a Frier put these bookes in the Canon which Hierome following the iudgement of the auncient Church and the truth it selfe denieth to be in the Canon marke well his owne words They are not in the Canon You say that we haue dashed them out and why should we not so doe For saith Hierome they are not in the Canon Desire you any further testimonies Epiphanius saith as much as Hierome who after he had recited diuers bookes which you say we haue put out of the Canon he thus writeth as Cornarius renders his words out of the Greeke These bookes verily are profitable and helpefull Epiphan in lib. de mensur Ponder but they are not reckoned in the number of those which are receiued Therefore they are not to be found in Aaron neither in the arke of the Couenant But see out of Hierome more manifest and pregnant things Hieron praefat in lib. Solomon As therfore the Church readeth the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Macchabees but accounteth them not Canonicall Scripture so also these two bookes he meaneth Wisdome and Ecclesiasticus it reades for edification of the common sort not for confirmation of any doctrine of the Church If Campian you be ignorant of these auncient testimonies you are but a young souldier in that kind of fight where you would be thought a well experienced Captaine but if you know them you are too vniust and iniurious vnto vs to obiect to vs I know not what desporation because wee admit not those bookes in the Canon of the Scripture which Antiquitie tels vs directly were neuer admitted neither are to be admitted Caietan in cap 24. Mattb. And verily Cardinall Caietan feares not to auouch that he that writ the booke of the Macchabees in a certeine prophesie of Daniels was a lyer but the holy Ghost was neuer wont to be deceiued in the interpreting of the Scripture Now wheras you imagine that we are conuinced by those Oracles as often as we dispute against the defence of Angels as often as we dispute against freewill as often as we dispute against praying to Saints You must fiâ—st before you can conuince vs proue that an argument will conclude necessarily out of those bookes to confirme the doctrine of the Church which Hierome demeth and you shall neuer be able to proue though you call all the Iesuits to a consultation And seeing you obiect desperation to vs see hoâ— you bewray your owne miserable â—esperation who cannot establish the Articles of your faith by the Canonicall Scriptures but you she to the Apocâ—ypha whose authority hath bin and for euer shall be doubted of in the Church The Lord hath commited his Will and Woâ—d to writing and commended it to his Church Those writings with all diligence and piety we receiue and reuerence we are content with them and we maintaine theiâ— sufficiency let goe then these questionable obscure and Apochrypha bookes and out of these contend with vs about religion But your religion long agoe hath passed beyond the bounds of the sacred Scripture and hath broken forth into many superstitions And hence it is that you doe the thing than which nothing can be more malapert and intolerable that is make of like authoritie with holy Scripture not only the Apochrypha bookes but euery o DVR Pag. 5â— â—â—e do not affâ—me Traditions to be of the same authority with the holy Scriptures WHIT. pag. 59 Though Duraeus heere denieth it yet the Councell of â—rent doth with the like holy affection and reuerence receiue and honor them as it doth the bookes oâ— the old and new Testamâ—nt See Decâ—et 1. Sess 4. vnwritten Tradition whersoeuer you come by them at the second or third hand But what do I telling you of these things who shamefully haue aduentured long since to violate and infâ—inge all the lawes both of God and man Take this from me if you can demonstrate that we haue condemned or reiected any one booke or any p DVR Pag. 64. You haue raced out these words out of S. Iohn Euery spirit
and that when they were quite depriued of the thing it selfe they would needes though with much adoe keepe still the bare name in possession I solaced my selfe with the hope I conceiued of your ripe iudgements yea and I nothing doubted but that assoone as you should find out euen by their owne confessions these their iugling trickes you would straightwaies like plaine honest and wise men cut off such foolish snares framed of set purpose to worke your ouerthrow WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the third Reason WHat is it Campian you further bring vnto vs you propound vnto vs the nature of the Church wherein you bring nothing besides your accustomed manner of vaine and childish oratorie neither worthy the hearing of our Vniuersitie men or answerable to the opinion that is held of you As touching the Church there are many questions and great controuersies and at this day almost all disputations about religion are reduced to this head For your a DVR Jt is well that once you will acknowledge vs to be Catholiks WHIT. pag. 247. Triumph not much for the name my meaning is to giue it you no otherwise thē vsually the name of man is giuen to a dead and dry corpes where nothing is but skinne and bone He is a Catholike not who followeth the popish Apostasie but that professeth the doctrine of Christ Catholikes being tossed with the boysterous stormes of other disputations haue been willing to take b DVR Is it so great a fault to flie into the hauen of the Church WHIT. pag. That is not the fault we taxe you for but that you couer all your errors by pretending the name of the Church And if we by manifest arguments out of the Scripture reproue and refell your heresies you cry out you are the Church and by that thinks to defend all things though they be neuer so absurde harbor in this hauen of the Church Here they dwell here they place all their hopes of safety and victorie heere they hide themselues whensoeuer they are beaten out of the field Therefore they fortifie this sconce with all the skill they can and strengthen it with munition on all sides for which cause I maruell so much the more to find you from whom so great things are expected in this controuersie to be so sleight and shallow for you neither teach nor conclude nor yet propound any thing for your Church against ours which hath in it either forceable reason or proofe But it may be this is but your first skirmish you will happely afterwards deale with vs hand to hand yet I wil trace you out in your owne steps that I may lay hold of you if happely I may find you any where certeine So soone say you as the aduersarie heard the Church but named he waxed wanne yea Campian it made him blush when he perceiued so chast holy a matron so impiously insolently to be abused by you The Church doth euer expell you and deny al commerce with you Yet you as very audacious importunate wooers giue not ouer your suite to compasse her Sure there was no cause why your aduersary should wax so wanne vnlesse he feared some euill measure from such cutthroats as you are Yet notwithstanding say you he hath deuised one thing which I would wish you to note well You will sure acquaint vs with some great and vnheard of matter verily I much desire to know what is this one thing yet I feare it will proue starke nothing and for all your throes you wil bring forth but a mouse As for the honorable praises of the Church you mention we both acknowledge those and speake far greater things of it but verily they agree not to your Church at all for it is the Babylonish whoore a branch cut off from the true Vine a denne of theeues a broad way leading to destruction the kingdome of hell the body of Antichrist a sinke of errors a great mother of fornications the Church of the wicked out of which euery Christian ought to depart which Christ shal one day fearefully destroy and giue her the iust recompence of all her sinnes In vaine then do you reckon vp the praises of the Church vnlesse you can demonstrate that they are proper to your Church which you shall neuer be able to doe so long as Rome standeth He would not say you seeme to gain-say the Church hee kept craftily still the name of the Church but the thing it selfe by his definition he tooke quite away We verily Campian c DVR Why do you not then defend her authoritie but diminish and lessen it yea and horriblie blaspheme affirming that the spouse of Christ may erre and be deceiued WHIT. pag. 248. It is you that blaspheme making the Church equall to God to whom it is only peculiar not to erre not be deceiued For the Church may erre though she be his Spouse but not persist in any deadly error as the Church of the Apostles did when shee thought her husbands kingdome was of this world yea and after shewed her ignorance of the calling of the Gentiles reuerence and honor the Church as our mother and in our definition wee both retaine the name and cleerely set out the nature of the thing it selfe But you hauing lost the Church long since do yet challenge the name and the vaine title of the church Our definition of the Church doth nothing like you why I pray you because we describe the Church by those properties which doe altogether darken and hide it Wee ascribe those properties to the Church which comprise the true nature of the Church whose presence make a Church and their absence marre or destroy a Church But what are those properties which you affirme to darken and hide the Church we verily iudge this to be proper to the true Church to d DVR The Church is not to be sought for by these as by notes but they are to be learned from the Church WHIT. pag. 252. Will it therefore follow because the word is no where else truly preached but in the Church nor the Sacramēts purely administred that the Church is not to be knowne and found out by then Yea the contrary followeth because they are not elsewhere but in the Church therefore by these notes the true Church is to be knovvne and demonstrated For if only Peripatetians professe the Philosophy of Aristotle then that kind of learning pointeth out the Peripatetians and distinguisheth them frō all other sects of Philosophers DVR Thus to search out the Church is but to secke out one vnknowne thing by another which is more vnknowne WHIT. pag. 254. As if the Scripture vvere more hidden and vnknovvne then the Church and the Scripture could better bee knovvne by the Church then it by the Scripture vndoubtedly no. 1. Because the Scripture begeteth and maketh a Church and then is a ting hknovvne vvhen the cause is knovvne 2. I here are many and diuers Churches
but there is but one constant Scripture alvvaies like it selfe 3. If at any time there vvas euer doubt made of the Scripture yet there haue been many moe questions and doubts concerning the Church Lastly the Scripture is called a Canon a rule novv the rule as it is straighter so is it more certeine then the thing that is squared by it DVR The notes of the Church ought to be such as are agreed vpon among all as are proper to it neither can be challengâ—d probablie by any other Church WHIT. pag. 356. I confâ—sse as much and such are our notes in all things vvhereas yours are nothing leste DVR But euery sect layeth claime to your notes WHIT. pag. 256. What then vvhat if you lay claime to the things I possesse are they therfore not mine ovvne Be it that heretikes do lay claime to the Scriptures yet they doe it vvithout all shevv of reason and out of the Scriptures only can they be confuted heare the word of Christ and keepe it to vse wholly and purely those Sacraments which Christ when hee departed from his Church left her as a pledge of his loue to her and as a proofe of her loyalty to him These we maintaine as the most true and substantiall properties of the Church and this definition made of the naturall and inbred principles and grounds of the thing which we define you shall neuer bee able to ouerthrow I pray you what is there heere that hideth the Church doth the word of God do the Sacraments hide the Church yea these are they that make the c DVR Why say you then that your Church lay hid for so many yeares together WHIT. pag. 260. Our Church did neuer lie so hid but it vvas discerned by your Pope vnlesse for so many yeares he persecuted shadovves Church appeare as cleere as any thing at noone day these giue vnto the Church strength health and beauty abolish these there will remaine nothing but the carkase of the Church What drowsie dreame then is this you tell vs of an airy body as if we denied that the Church could be found on the earth wee neuer doubted but the Church euer hath been and euer shal be vpon the earth though we also grant that the sight of it being sometime so cleere that it may be seen of all at another time is so obscured euer shadowed that one can hardly know it But no Church pleaseth you saue that which is continually flourishing and which is visible to all mens eies which hath a continuall succession of Bishops to be fetched from the beginning and which is subiect to the Pope Now Campian as for you you come to late to tell vs of these frantike popish dreames wee haue heard discussed and distolued them aboue a thousand times Doe you thinke you are able to make vs beleeue that the state of the Church is such that it cannot be hid that treachery should preuaile nothing against it an open enemy nothing Antichrist himselfe nothing These can neuer quite ouerthrow the Church they may driue it to straits and thrust it into corners August 4.8 Augustine compareth the Church to the Moone which sometime while it is inlightned by the Sunne-beames shineth out aâ— another time it is depriued of the greatest part of the light and sometime shineth not at all So the Church sometime shineth most brightly sometime is more obscured sometime hardly appeareth and her whole course is continually gayning and losing of light Will you that I manifest it to you by examples while Dauid and Salomon raigned the Church flourished in Israell but when Ahab raigned the face of the Church was so far obscured that the most diuine Prophet f DVR Elias spake not of the whole Church but of the kingdome of Israell wherein he liued WHIT. pag. 261. He liued at that time not in the kingdome of Israell but in the mouÌ„taine of God MouÌ„t Horeb. 1. King 19.8 But graÌ„t he spake of Israell only it is no lesse for our purpose For that which hapned there that no good men appeared though many lay hid so it may fall out in other churches and at other times that none or few of the faithfull appeare yet God may haue a multitude of vnknowne beleeuers Eliah complained that there was not one remaining saue himselfe If there could be such a hauocke made of the Church 1 King 14.10 hhm 10.3 that of all that great number of the godly there was scarce one to be seene though there was a good summe remaining of them it need be no wonder that in the kingdome of Antichrist who surpasseth all Ahabs and Iezabels in all brabarous cruelty that the Church should be so wasted that there should appeare a maruellous scarcity of faithfull men And yet could Antichrist in that great hauocke of religion and the Church neuer so far preuaile but there was a remanant of many thousand thousands of Saints who neuer bowed their knees to the beast neither euer receiued the marke of the beast Let vs passe along to those times when Christ liued vpon the earth and consider the state of the Church of Ierusalem For no Church can be more like to the Church of Rome then that as the state of it was when Christ did performe the worke of our saluation They had the Scripture they were a people zealous of the law they had the Temple they had Leuits Priests yea a high Priest what was wanting here to make a perfect Church Christ at length sheweth himselfe openly and bringeth that happie message of saluation this very Church hated persecuted cursed and in the end killed this Christ the Son of God the lagat of his Father the teacher of celestiall doctrine the author of our saluation This Church then Campian was it a true Church or no what think you If it was then the true Church hated Christ and iudged him worthy of death If it was not then where and what is the true Church for Christ at the first had a very smale number that if you answere g DVR The Church vndoubtenly was in Christ and his Apostes WHIT. pag. 262. See then what followeth for our aduantage it it so fell out that the true Church was not amongst them who had a lawfull succession ordeined of the Lord who also had the place the name the dignity and magnificent ornaments of the Church but it was in a few who after a sort were cut off from the Church it is a thing without question that the Church is not alwaies to bee sought for in a visible multitude and an outward succession of men but often times in obscure places and amongst a very few Christ and his company was the Church then you fall into that crime which you reproue vs for If then this might befall the h DVR That which befell the Synagogue of Hierusalâ—â—â— cannot befall to the Church of Christ whieth the Prophets haue plainly foretold should neuer perish
what may be feared of them namely lest that rather then they should not many they would waâ— waâ—â—on against Christ and breake their first faith which is not their vow but the profession of Christian religion which such light buswiues would easily coâ—â—â—â—â— that they might inioy their pleasures And that this is his meaning the 1â— verse sheweth For certeine are already turned backe after Satan shewing what some had done he admonisheth them to be wary lest others should do the like And as for the Fathers if they did also expound these words as indeed they doe not yet the argument is very weake in diuinity The Fathers haue thus expounded it therefore the exposition is true Luther indeed tooke to wife in holy wedlocke a Virgin that once was intangled by a rash superstitious vow after she had bin more rightly instructed in the truth of religion Exclaime bitterly as you list Call Zuinglius also a swash buckler seeing your self is a player of a Price But tell vs wherein he did euer shew himselfe such a cutter forsooth he boldly ventered his life with his fellow citizens Slerdum lib. 8. Occolam Ephes lib. 4. If Zuinglius at the commaund of the Senate went to warre against the enemies of his couÌ„trie religion where he perished by cruell theeues who lay in waite for him what did he vnbefitting a valiant man a good citizen and a faithfull Pastor to do For whereas you challenge him with conspiracie against his country besides that it is a shamelesse lie I wonder why you should obiect such a crime to him seeing with you it is a thing very commendable for men to conspire against their Prince and country As for Caluin whom you call a seareback runagate the whole Church of Christ knoweth to be an excellent man and a most constant seruant of the Lord who was as farre from lewdnes and dishonastie as you are from shamefastnes and honesty If he was seared S. Paul was so too Gal. 6.17 yea diuers others but indeed he was not And whereas you call him a runagate I pray you tell vs where you haue liued for these diuers yeares and remember what your selfe were Caluin neuer forsooke the Church hee once tooke vpon him to gouerne but there he liued with the speciall loue of all and there he ended his daies but why doe I answere you anything in defence of those excellent and worthy men whom you shal neuer iustly defame though you burst your hart with lying But let vs now heare your communication as you call it And heere you demaund Whether we will subscribe to the Church which flourished these many hundred youres we answere we will subscribe but say you to which Church I answere r DVR He did not demaund whether you would subscribe to that Church which had continued in the precept of the Apostles but vvhether to that Church vvhich hath flourished these many hundred yeares vvhich if you vvould you must needs yeeld as ouercome vvhen none but ours haue flourished thus long WHIT. pag. 285. As if no Church but the Romish Church had flourished these many hundred yeares or for many ages together in the opinion of men it only hâ—â— the name of â—â—e church 〈…〉 will subscribe to all Churches whether they flourished now 〈…〉 they hold the Apostles doctrine but you shall neuer proue 〈◊〉 we must necessarily subscribe to place Sea succession no more then Christ his disciples were bound when there was no true Church flourishing vpon the earth to the Church which is built vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles that is to the Churches of Hierusalem Antioch Ephesus and all those famous and excellent Churches of which wee reade in the Epistles written by the Apostles yea euen to the auncient Church of Rome to which yours is no more like then an apple to an oysteâ— Finally we subscribe to those Churches of whom we reade in histories that they kept the seed of that doctrine which the Apostles taught among them sound vncorrupt These Churches as long as they did continue in the Apostles doctrine were true Churches to those Churches we haue and euer will subscribe And by this I thinke we haue cut off the progresse of your conference for we haue not giuen you such an answere as you fained to your selfe Wherefore that which followeth in you hangeth together like a rope of sand but no answere will please you vnlesse we offer to subscribe to your Romish Church but that we iustly disclaime because it hath fouly corrupted the â—â—â—stles writing You must find you out other subscribers Campian for wee will subscribe to none but the Apostolicall Churches But one thing say you they will still stand vpon in darkenes that where and in what place soeuer the Church is there are conâ—eiued therein only Saints and such as are predestinate to go to heauen We speake not so of the Church as you write for we are taught by the Scriptures thus to distinguish the Church that it is sometimes Å¿ DVR I beleeue only one Catholike Church as the Apostles and Nicene Creed hath taught me which conteineth both the elect and as many as professe true religion Now you teach me to beleeue two Churches WHIT. pag. 286. This distinction taketh not away the vnity of the Church no more then when the Church is said to be mâ—â—â—an and uâ—â—â—phant vniuersall and particular For the visible and â—â—uisible Church make but one called visible for the outward policy or order of it which is seene and discerned inuisâ—ble because Gods election and the electes faith is not to be seene with eies And this distinction we haue Esay 1.9 Matth. 22.14 As for the Creedes you mention we beleeue them in this point aswell as you But tell vs this one Catholike Church what is it If you restraine the name to the visible Church first you exclude both that in heauen of the Saints and that which shall be of these which aâ—e vnborne and yet do belong to the Catholike Church secondly you place faith in the sense which the Apostle saith is of things which are not seene Heb. 11.1 As for that Catholike Church which we beleeue it is the company of all the elect euen as many as haue been from the beginning of the world and shall be to the end therefore it is called the Apostolike and holy Church the communion of Saints And to this communion belong no prophane and wicked men no hypocrites because they haue no fellowship with Christ For the holy Church is the mysticall body of Christ of which body no member can at any time perish visible and sometimes inuisible In a particular visible Church of which they are members who will heare the Word and receiue the Sacraments we confesse there are many fained Christians who had rather haue the visard of faith then true faith indeed An inuisible Church we affirme to containe only the godly who with a
true faith lay hold on the Gospell These though they may bee seene as long as they liue amongst men seeing they are men as others bee yet because neither their faith nor Gods loue which maketh them members of the Church is visible we affirme that this Church consisting of holy and faithfull men is altogether inuisible Christ is the head of this Church to this only the elect caâ— ioyne themselues wee then acknowledge another Church besides that which coÌ„teineth only Saints for so should there be no visible Church at all but what company of men soeuer vpon the earth doth professe the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets we professe that to be the true Church of Christ though many wicked men be found in it Neither are we the first who did inuent and deuise these things as you say of vs but are ready to proue theÌ„ both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity Comfort then your selfe Campian as much as you can with the wits of our Vniuersity men and promise to your selfe great things from vs but see you bring more dexterity of wit or else without doubt you can neuer deceiue vs with this shallow conceit If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our Vniuersity men I perswade my selfe they would not only teare to pieces these your childish shifts but do as much by you too for abusing so shamefully their learned conceites EDMVND CAMPIAN The fourth Reason which is generall Councels AGreat controuersie for the keeping of the ceremonies of the old law which in the Primitiue Church much moued the minds of faithfull people was by a Councell gathered together of the Apostles and some elders decided Children then beleeued their Parents and sheepe their Sheepheards charging them in this sort a Act. 15 It hath pleased the holy Ghost and vs after this there were holden foure generall Councels of auncient Fathers for the rooting out of heresie which budded vp aboundantly in euery age which were of such authoritie aboue b Greg. li. 1. epist. 24. 1000. yeeres agoe that * Gregorie made the foure Councels equall to the Euangelists great honour was attributed vnto them as though it had been vnto the foure Gospels I will seeke no further euen here in our owne Countrey by an c Anno 1. Elizab. acte of Parliament the selfe same Councels doe retaine still their former force and pure authoritie which said acte I will heere alleadge And call thee thy selfe O England my most louing Countrey to witnesse If thou reuerence as thou pretendest those Councels Nic. Can. 6. Chal. act 4. 16. Constan c. 5. Eph. conc in epist. ad Nestorium Nic. con 14 Chal. act 11 Nic. conc apud Soc. lib. 1 cap. 8. Vide Chalc. can 4.15.23 then wilt thou yeeld vp the supremacie to the Bishop of the chiefe sea that is to Saint Peter Then wilt thou acknowledge vpon the altar the vnbloodie sacrifice of the bodie and blood of Christ. Then wilt thou pray the blessed Martyrs and all the Saints in Heauen to make intercession to Christ for thee Then wilt thou restraine these leacherous Apostataes from their filthie carnall copulation and open incest Then wilt thou build vp many things which now thou pullest downe and wish many things vndone which now thou doest Moreouer I promise and vndertake as occasion and time shall serue to proue that the * Campian makes all Synods equall with the Gospell Councels holden at other times and namely the Councell of Trent haue been of equall authoritie and credit with the foure first Councels Wherefore then should I not come to this place of triall securely and couragiously to marke into what corner my enemie will creepe seeing I am * This is false ancient Councels doe not confirme the Romish faith ayded with the valiant and piked garrison of all the Councels For I will alleadge both most manifest matter which he shall not be able to wrest aside and also most substantially prooued which he dare not contemptuously reiect He will perhaps goe about to trifle out the time with multiplying of many words but if you be the men that I haue alwaies taken you for you will take so good heed vnto him that he shall neither rob you of your eares nor eyes If there shall be any at all so mad as to oppose himselfe against the sages of all Christendome and those such men as for holines of life learning and antiquitie are too great to be challenged I would willingly behold that brazen face the which when I shall shâ—w you I will leaue the rest to your imaginations In the meane while I will giue you this caueat that whosoeuer affirmeth that a generall Councell * The Councell of Trent was neither a full Councell nor lawfully held And so both the Emperor and the French King haue iudged Sleidan anno 1551. lib. 33. The assemblie of certaine men duly and orderly kept and finished is of no force or authoritie the same man seemeth to me to be one of no iudgement nor of any wit and not onely an asse in diuinitie but also voide of discretion in worldly policie If euer the spirit of God illuminated the Church surely then that time is most fit to send downe the holy Ghost when the religion perfection knowledge wisdome and honour of all Churches dispersed throughout all Christendome are assembled together into one Citie and vsing all meanes both diuine and humane whereby the truth may be searched out Matth 18. they call vpon the holy Ghost promised e Joh. 14. by God vnto them that by his assistance they may establish godly lawes for the safe and wise gouernement of the Church Now let there some pettie peart hereticall Doctor leape out let him looke vp stately let him scorne and mocke let him lay all shame aside let him saucily giue iudgement of his owne iudges what game what pastime shall he make we haue spied out such a one euen Martin f Lib. de capt Bab. Luther who saith that he more esteemeth of the voices of two honest and learned men ye may well imagine his owne and Philip Melancthons if they come together in Christs name then he did of all generall Councels O worthy companie We haue found out also another of the same crue to wit g Martini Kemnitij examen Conc. Tridentini Kemnitius who hath vndertaken to examine the Councell of Trent by his owne vnreasonable giddie braine what hath he gained an euill name so that he except he preuent it by recanting shall be buried for an heriticke with Arrius whereas the Councell of Trent the elder it waxeth by so much more it shall flourish daily and continually * The famous praises of the Councell of Trent O good Lord with what diuersitie of people out of all countries with what choice of Bishops throughout all Christendome with what excellencie of Kings and Common-weales with what
suppose that we did euer attribute thus much to these Councels that we iudge all that to be necessarily embraced whatsoeuer they haue decreed heare you now what our Church hath thought and ordained of these generall Councels Councels not only may erre but also sometimes haue erred In the Artic of Religion Artic. 21. and that in these things which belong to the rule of piety and therfore whatsoeuer by them is decreed as necessary to saluation hath no vertus nor authority vnlesse it may be shewed that it is taken ouâ— of the holy Scriptures Cite you now these words and then contest as you call it your sweet couÌ„try And in like maÌ„ner this your most deare countrie in which you were borne brought vp and graced doth contest intreat and beseech you by all those things which are vnto you most sweeâ—e and best esteemed that you desist any more in this bâ—dde cause to be troublesome vnto her that you will noâ— corrupt her children with an impious and strange religion that you will make more preciouâ— account of her dignity then of a forraine enemie and that you would at length returne thither from whence you haue straâ—ed And surely you would not contemne this speech of your country if you could euen for a litle space lay aside that preiudicate opinion which you haue sucked from Rome and brought with you hither into England But let vs heare what is this your contestation If say you you will reâ—erence these fourâ— Councels you will chiefely honâ—r the Bishop of the chiefâ— Sâ—â— that is Peter And so do we ascribe great honour vnto Peter and that worthily neither doe we contend with you about him but this affirme that those things which were proper vnto Peter cannot in any wise appertaine to your Pope who was neuer like either Peter or Paul And in truth what madnes is this so insolently to bragge of Peters great vertues when in the meane time you cannot proue that your Popes are indued with any such Do you suppose that any man that is in his right wits will thinke that Peters faith piety and all the rest of his vertues haue bin deriued to your Pope by a lineall descent from so many other Popes of whom a great number were not men but monsters This doubtlesse is a grosse dotage and fit to be taken away Quouis helleboro dignum with the mad mans purge and as one saith for those diseases reprehension is the best maâ—â—â—r of cure Should I entitle your Gregoriâ— the 13. who now gouerneth at Rome with the name of Peter doth he teach doth he feed Christs sheepe surely he cannot Doth he performe the duty of an Apostle or of a Bishop nothing lesse How therfore doth he demeane himselfe Sitting in the Vatican he prouoketh to warre moueth seditions armeth subiects against their Princes and filleth the whole world with vproâ—â—â—â— Did Peter thus behaue himselfe is this to be Peter can you deny that these things be true and shall I then yeeld vnto him the like honor that is due to Peter being so vnlike him in conditions But let vs further examine your words You will say you chiefely honor the Bishop of the chiefe Sea that is Peter but by what Councell doe you proue that necessary you alleage the Councell of Nice Can. 6. In which there is not so much as any mention of the Bishop of the chiefe Sea or of Peter neither in truth could any thing be produced of greater force against your Bishop then that decree of Nicene Synode for it matcheth all Metropolitanes and Patriarkes in an equall ranke of honor with the Bishop of Rome neither doth it attribute any more to him then vnto the Metropolitanes of Antioch Alexandria and the rest of the other Prouinces If you please you shall heare the words of the Councell Concil Nicen Can. 6. d DVR This cause by you alleadged maketh much for establishing the authority of the Romane Sea ouer all Churches For vvhen as the Fathers to proue the authority of the Bishop of Alexandria alleage the custome of the Church of Rome they shew hereby that Alexandria dependeth vpon Rome as the mother Church froÌ„ which she hath all her authority And that this was their mind appeareth by the words of Paschasmus the Popes Legat in the Councell of Chalcedon is also proued by the 39. Canon translated out of Arabicke into Latin The same Fathers likevvise assembled at Sardis approued the Supremacy of the Romane Sea WHIT. pag. 299. Nothing could be alleadged more direct against the Romish Supremacy then this Canon wherin their own proper limits of iurisdiction are assigned to euery Metropolitane For if the Pope should rule ouer the whole Church it had bin absur'd to limit euery one their owne borders wherein they should haue supreame authority according to the custome of the Church of Rome Neither doth this proue the supremacy of the Romish Church because they alleadge her custome and example as you ignorantly inferre seeing an example may be taken aswell from an equall or inferiour as from a superious It is no maruell if Paschasinus being the Popes Legate spake for the supremacy of the Romane Sea neither is his testimony to be regarded being a party Your Arabicke Canon is meerely Arabicke and not Nicene for of this Councel there were only 20. Canons written in Greek and not in the Arabian tongue The Canon of the Councell of Sardis helpeth you not seeing the Councell of Africke testifieth that iâ— was counterfeite Let the ancient custome be in force which was in Aegypt Libya and Pentapolis that the Bishop of Alexandria haue the chiefe dignity ouer all these things because also this was the custome of the Bishop of Rome and in like manner at Antioch and in the rest of the Prouinces let the Primacy and authority be receiued vnto the Churches You see Campian I suppose that no extraordinary prerogatiue hath been giuen to the Bishop of Rome and that his Prouince and Iurisdiction hath been circumscribed within determined bounds and borders Ruffin lib. Decimâ— And after this same manner doth Ruffinus if you do not credit vs interpret this Canon This Auncient custome is obserued at Alexandria and in the citie of Rome that the Bishop of Alexandria take the charges of Aegypt and the Bishop of Rome of the Churches of the cities neire adioyning And therefore let the Bishop of Rome take care of the bordering Churches of the neighbour cities with which the Nicene Synode hath enioyned him to rest satisfied and hereafter let him not trouble himselfe with the care of our Churches which appertaine not vnto his charge And so you see that if you had been well aduised you would neuer haue mentioned this Councell Act. 4.16 But you adioyne also vnto this the Councell of e DVR The Councell of Chalcedon standeth so directly for the supremacy of the Romane Sea that you ca with no shifts auoid it For therein
would follow that God himselfe the author of nature is culpable And so proceedeth vtterly denying that he had any purpose in those bookes to speake of that will which is made free by Gods grace And whatsoeuer in these books passed his pen which seemed to fauour the Pellegians then Patrons of freewill as you are now all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke and cleareth it from their cauils Haue we any cause to be offended with Augustine which in this question is not against vs And that you may plainly perceiue how indiscreetly you alledged these bookes of free-will marke what hee writeth of the will of man in those same bookes n DVR Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorāce all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man though free is able to do nothing to merit heauen by but by the grace of God And you are ignorant that the freedome of will consisteth in this that by no necessitie it is carried to either part WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace and not made good by grace so you teach that no new will is infused but the natural is helped and as it were vnloosed by grace which is not much from Pelagianisme for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature that it need not be giuen him from aboue but only by the helpe of grace to be drawne out of certeine difficulties in which the corruption of sinne had left it And as for my ignorance I confesse it and thinke it more learned then your knowledge for if those who do things necessarily do them not freely then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely for God worketh well and the diuell euill necessarily So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill for not necessity but force and compulsion taketh away the freedome of the will Hold thou fast saith Augustine this principall of piety Delibere Arbit 61.2 cap. 20. that no good thing happens vnto thee either when thou thinkest or vnderstandest or any way imaginest which is not from God And this was Augustines constant opinion of freewill after that being stirred by the Pellagians he throughly vnderstood the question viz. that he iudged it to be vtterly lost and gone o DVR The meaning of the place is this that man so lost his freewill that be lost himselfe yet so as no man in his right wits will deny but he is a man still WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we desire for as man lost himselfe and yet remained a man but not such as he was good iust holy indued with perfection but cleane changed so the free will of man was lost not that no wil remained but that it was changed from good to euill for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all but no good wil as we affirme not there is no man at all remaining but no good man Man saith he by abusing his free-will lost both it and himselfe Enchir. 3. But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs for say you they that make their captious deuises the rule of their faith must not they bee offended with Augustine which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus An Epistle Campian do you call it it was euer accounted a booke but what is there in that Epistle as you call it against vs in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity vnity perpetuall succession and with that Church which alone amongst so many heresies hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription We also agree with that Church which hath all these And yet to these must be added as Augustine saith in the same place sincere wisdome and truth else all the other bind vs not for they are of no value without that wisdome but this wisdome and truth though without these is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things so saith Augustine Cont. Fundam cap. 4. if the truth appeare manifestly so as it cannot be doubted of it alone is more to be esteemed then p DVR Augustine affirmeth that these cannot be without the truth WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine sheweth the contrarie for if truth cannot be separated from these he had spoken very vnfitly when he said he preferred the truth before all these If you can take or rightly challenge the possessiō of truth in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity Vnity Succession all those reasons that keepe me in the Catholike Church Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it selfe alone and sincere wisdome then all those things you mention Antiquity Vnity Succession and we perceiuing this truth and wisdome so manifestly in our Churches that none that will see the truth can doubt whether we hold the truth or no do willingly giue you free liberty to bragge whilest you list of antiquity vnity succession without the truth There is then as you see no cause why we should be angry with Augustine either now or before But at length you leaue Augustine and call out Optatus Bishop of Miletum of whom you say you desire to know what our opinion is I verily thinke he was a good Father and very like vnto Augustine and I take the things to be true which many worthy men haue said in his commendation But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church Why should he not or what doth that cōcerne vs Augustine also obserued the same course and it was a good motiue that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists which seditiously without cause separated themselues from the Church But wee deny your Church to be Catholike and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists It must first appeare that it is the Church before we can be conuicted of schisme The q DVR So indeed Caluin answereth but it will not serue your turne for Opratus proueth himself to be in the Catholike Church because he ioyned himselfe to Saint Peters chaire WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire the externall seate or the succession of Bishops you shall neuer proue it and the contrary I cen easily obiect out of Optatus himselfe Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholike iudgement With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike because he kept the Catholike confession and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops Finally his argument was good against the Donatists who did separate themselues from the communion of the Catholike Church while they consented not with these Churches where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawfull ordination of Bishops did
euer flourish But it is nothing to vs and you Church of Rome was then the preseruer of Religion the maintainer of the true faith and shined like a starre in the sight of all other Churches no maruell then though the most holy Fathers esteemed much the reuerence of this Church vrged the heretikes with the example of it Irenaeus August as a great preiudice vnto them Hence it is that sometimes they alledge the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome therby prouing that the heresies by them refuted were not heard of in the most famous and honorable Church But since that time the course of the Church is turned and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith to detestable falshood Restore vs Campian the old Church of Rome and we will neuer separate our selues from her but of that Church you haue nothing left but the walles and old rubbish yet still you bragge of the name of the Catholike Church And whereas you mention Altars on which the members of Christ are carried and Chalices containing his blood I know well many things concerning Altars are to be found in the auncient Fathers which Altars in Africa were not of stone but r DVR VVhat difference is there the Donatists ouerthrew vvoodden Altany and you Altars of stone WHIT pag. 389. They troubled sacred tables by their sacriledge not reprouing the administration of the Sacrament but the ordination of Bishops which yet was lawfull we haue cast downe Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Masse and prophane Idolatry Is there no difference thinke you woodden as you may see in Augustines Epistle to Boniface and I graunt the members of Christ and his Å¿ DVR Optatus writeth that the body of Christ dwelleth vpon the Altar WHIT. pag. 390. I answere that the sacrament of the body of Christ is after a sort Christs body and the name of the thing is giuen to the signe as is vsuall in all Sacraments For the body of Christ is no where properly but in heauen at the right hand of his Father where it shall remaine to the end of the world blood are receiued in the holy mysteries but after a heauenly and spiritual manner Epist 50. appropriate vnto our most holy faith As for your deuouring of flesh Optatus was not acquainted with it and the auncient Church of Christ not so much as euer dreamed of so great a monster They sing say you in their Churches the Creed of Athanasius but they fauour him not and why because he praiseth Antony the Hermit You speake wisely as t DVR But doe you thinke Hermits are worthy of any praise whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony WHIT. pag. 391. Graunt vve vvell approue of the old Hermits yet may we thinke bad enough of your Monkes as vve haue done and professe it for iust causes seeing they differ both so much in manners and iudgements Antonius the Hermits grandfather vvas vvont to say that it was as dangerous for a Monke to go out of his hermitage as for fishes to leaue the water If you praise Antony so much vvhy do you not follovv him vvhy do you svvarme in all cities and famous places and doe not rather liue in some remote wildernesse as fishes swim in the Sea so should you be more like to Antony and free these parts from great damage though we were so enuious that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised nay there is somewhat else Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2. He with his Synode of Alexandria humblie appealed vnto the sentence of the Apostolike Sea this Epistle is all counterfeit compacted of many lies and monstrous flattery Prudentius I grant as a u DVR Because he was a Poet forgate hee to be a Christian or did he any thing in verse which infinit learned â—athers haue not done before in prose WHIT. pag. 392. Who knovveth not that Poets vvere vvont to vveigh vvhat the verse required more then vvhat piety called for and to follovv the elegancy of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault vvith yet see hovv foolish it is to auovv poeticall exornations for reasons in the controuersies of religion And if Prudentius follovved so many Fathers vvhy name you not one of them For 300. yeares after Christ there vvas no such custome in the Church vvhich you affirme so infinite a number of Fathers vsed and it rose vp in the Church but a little before Prudentius daies but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the vvord Poet sometimes called vpon the Martyrs whose acts he describes in verse and the superstitious custome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error As for Vigillantius and Iouinian against whom Hirrâ—â—â—â— writeth most bitterly if they taught those things that are laid to their charge we maintaine them not That * DVR It seemeth you haue nothing to answere to Ambrose at all WHIT. pag. 393. Haue I answered nothing when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church was it not answere enough to shew I allowed not the corrupt iudgement of some Fathers What gaine you by this if we professe freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamentall points whereas notorious corruption hath spread it selfe ouer your whole Church coÌ„sumed it the beginnings of corruptions in them is growne to an height in you without hope of cure Ambrose should be carefull to commend and set sorth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius we willingly permit Neither doe we wholy mislike Gregory with whom surely you haue more cause to be offended then we But wheras he said that Images were lay-mens bookes hee neither learned in x DVR Answere me in vvhat schoole did you learne to breake downe Images not in the schooles of Christians but of Iewes WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the schoole of the holy Ghost Deut 5.8 Iosh 24.23 where wee are taught to worship one God with religious worship and to cast out of the Church to breake and burne the Images of men though neuer so holy Moses beate the Calfe to powder the holy Ghost commended Hezâ—â—â—a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent though it was set vp by Godâ— authority when the Israelits abused it to superâ—â—â—ion how much more ought we to destroy prophane Images monuments of cursed idolatrie Epiphanius being taught in this schoole rent the vaile which was hung vp in the temple hauing painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia who tooke downe broke the Images of his time I haue learned this then not out of the schooles of
and authoritie with him and forbids all appeales to the Bishop of Rome Therefore he must needes deest your Pope who preferreth himselfe both in dignity authority before all other Bishops from all parts drawes vnto his courts all appeales i DVR Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeale WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well you shall find that he inueigheth against certaine false Bishops who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Afrike for iust causes vvould haue the causes pleaded againe at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop And in his discourse 1. He shevved that causes ought to be heard vvhere the crimes are committed And so not things done in Afrike at Rome 2. He affirmeth that euery Bishop hath his portion of the flocke for which he must giue an account Then not the Bishop of Rome the vvhole nor the administration of all causes finally he calleth them desperate and forlorne men vvho thought the authority of the Bishops of Afrike to bee lesse then of the Bishops of other countries and so vvith reproach hee reiecteth the supreame authoritie of the Bishop of Rome Is there heere any thing lesse then vve haue affirmed Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without questioÌ„ Lactan. 2. cap. 19. k DVR Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians but of the Idols of the Heathen vvhich he condemneth because they are made of the earth besides the Ieves had their Cherubins WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols but Images such as your Church is full of and so can there be no religion in it Besides your Images are no more heauenly then theirs but made of the earth as theirs who pretended for themselues as he vvriteth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do that they vvorshipped not the Images but the God expressed by them Further for the Cherubins they were placed in the most holy place into vvhich the people might not enter not yet looke in and shevv vs particular precepts for yours as they had for theirs and vve haue done But he that commanded theirs forbiddeth euery vvhere all others There can be no religion wheresoeuer there is an image If hee now liued and saw your Churches full of images would he acknowledge any signe of true Religion Athanasius affirmeth Athanas conts a Gentas That the holy Scriptures giuen by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all trueth wherein with one word hee hath put to slight the whole armies of your l DVR VVill not all your Vniuersity men account you a cosener vvhen Athanasius ioyneth the bookes of the Fathers with the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius say asmuch as I affirme The Scriptures are sufficient of themselues vvhy do you reptoach me but he addeth the bookes of the Fathers he doth but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures but as Commentaries vpon them For saith he by reading of them a man may in some measure vnderstand the sense of the Scripture These vvords make not for you neither against vs therefore I vsed neither cosening nor disceite traditions Epiphanius sharply reprooueth certaine foolish women Epipham lib. 3. Haeres 79. who worshipped the virgine Mary with a certaine new kind of worship and condemneth all that superstition m DVR Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints but reproueth â—omen for offering vp sacrifices to the Virgin Mary aâ— to a Gâ—â—ldâ—â—â—e WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honoring of Saints and not of sacrificing only his vvords are plaine â—et none of the Saints be adored The vvord he vseth signifieth to bovv and prostrate our selues and to vvorship one vvith Diuine honor vvhich being proper to God you impiously giue to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable Saints Let none saith he worship the Virgine Mary What would he say if hee now saw not onely foolish women but also men and all mortall wights n DVR No Câ—tâ—oâ—ike doth offer vp sacrifice or performe vowes to the Virgin Mary WHIT. Yet you confesse you do such things to the honor of the Virgin and other Saints I pray you what may be the meaning of this you offer vp sacrifices and vowes to God in honor of the Saints let me demaund of you as Epiphanius of these women what Scriputre â—peaketh any thing of this matter Then answere your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary or for her whether soeuer Epiphanius saith It is foolish strange and that vvhich proceeded from the spirit of Diuels Againe who knoweth not that you offer vp prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints And no man is found either so greatly couetous or so little superstâ—tious but he voweth somewhat to some Saint specially to the Virgin Mary offering vp sacrifices and vowes to the Virgine Mary Basil in Epist ad Cleric Neocaesariae Basil is the author that in his dayes there was a o DVR Basil doth not say it was the custome of all Churches WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you haue not read Basil reade the place and you shall find these words there The câ—â—ome we now keepe is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God And he reckoneth the Churches of Aegypt Afrike Thebes Palestine and all who vse singing of Psalmes custome in all Churches that the people repeated the Psalmes in the holy assemblies But in your Churches the people can p DVR As if the publike prayers of the Church did not profit the people vnlesse they vnderstand the 〈◊〉 what a foolish dreame is this WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dreame with the Apostle then watch with you for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6 He that speaketh a strange tongue speaketh not vnto men but vnto God vers 6. If I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues what shall I profit you Strange tongues then profit not vnlesse your tongues haue some more Diuine power then the Apostles tongue had neither heare nor vnderstand those things which are read but are onely deluded with ridiculous gestures and pompous shewes q DVR Gregorie neuer thought so but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent then any humane condition neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians but of that vvhich is spent in the duties of charity WHIT. pag. 444. I proue it easily out of his words Hierome the Philosopher saith he proposed vnto himselfe to know whether of our liues vvas more to be vvished for and more profitable to the end he might make choice of it And when he knew that euery man was not borne for himselfe only but for all others who beare the same nature with him he embraced this common life rather then that solitary life Doth he not now preferre this life and from the praise he giueth the other he hath somewhat detracted when he sheweth that it is only for themselues and so lesse
away Aeneas take Pius What shal I further recite Petrarch Mantuan and other Poets both learned and famous which feared not with Satiricall verses to inueigh against the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergie all things were then so out of order that all sinnes might without controulâ—â—ent both be practised and openly blamed I need not to seeke farre remember what Cornelius Bishop of Bicontine not many yeares agoe at the Councell of Trent spake openly in the presence and audience of the whole Church whose witnes must needs be strong and effectuall against you though of it selfe it bee little worth Thus he saith Cornel. Bicontin in concil Crident Would to God they had not all with one consent turned from religion to superstition from faith to infidelity from Christ to Antichrist from God to Epicurisme Behold the Marks of your Church suâ—â—â—stition infidelity Antichrist Epicure for all this you are not ashamed to affirme that no Historie either yours or ours hath bewrayed or testified any such matter But Campian the more you defend the integrity of your Church the more you cause vs to manifest the corruptions of it Our aduersaries say you doe grant that the Romane Church was once a holy Church This we confesle and that then it was holy when Paul published those her worthie praise which you remember and yet those praises by you mentioned doe not belong to that Church alone but were giuen also to other Churches Rom. 1. â— For what if the faith of the Romanes were published in the whole world this was no proper or peculiar priuiledge of that Church Hath not the Apostle written asmuch of the Church of Thessalonica 1. Thess 1.8 Your faith to wards God is spread in all places What if hee made mention of the Romanes without ceasing Rom. 1.9 so did he also incessantly remember the Thessalonians 1. Thess 1.3 What though he doubted not but hee should come vnto the Romanes in abundance of the blessing of Christ Rom. 15.29 thinke you his comming into other Churches was lesse fruitfull Rom. 16.19 What if all Churches saluted the Romanes and their obedience was euery where spoken of know you not that all the Saints vsed to salute one another or suppose you that other Churches were not as obedient to the Apostles as this But we grant you that at this time it was holy what would you more Act. 28. Then also when Paul preached the Gospell there in his fauourable restraint This also wee grant what more 1. Pet. 5.13 And then also when Peter gathered and gouerned the Church there calling it Babylon We deny not this And though I can be well content that you call Rome Babylon for I doubt not but it is the same of which h DVR Saint Iohn speaketh of Rome vvhen it yet abhorred the saith of Christ aâ—d persecuted Christians WHIT. pag. 512. Nay S. Jâ—â—n described Rome as it was restored and reedified by Antichrist for when â—e wâ—â—teth Apoc 18. â— who seeth not that this cannot be vnderstood of auncient Rome but of Rome when it was the habitation of Saints rather then Diuels and the hold of the Spirit of God rather then foule spirits Iohn writes so much in the Reuelation the mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth yet I cannot be so easily perswaded that i DVR Yet Oecumenius Hierome Eusebius Tertullian to say nothing of others do graunt it And to make question of Peters being at Rome is as if you should doubt whether euer Romulus Iulius Caeser or Pompeie was there For if Cyprian Eusebius Doâ—oâ—heus Epiphanius Optatus Hicrom and many others may not be beleeued vvhat shall euer be certeine in any History WHIT pag. 508. All these testimonies proue nothing that I haue either doubted of or denied for I desire authority of Scriptures not the opinions of men I desire euery man who desireth saluation to weigh this one thing well That whereas the whole gouernment Hierarchy of the Papacie hangeth on this soundation that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome yet they haue no word in the Scriptures to shew that he euer was so and so the whole Papacie is hanged vpon the coniectures of men as vpon a rotten threed for what if many Histories say he was there if the Scripture say no such thing what assurance can be of it for matter of faith the mind must needs bee suspicious and doubtfull it is true that the receiued opinion is that hee was there But who knoweth not that that which one deliuereth at the first may increase by fame and be by many reserued to posterity At the first an auncient writer mentioned S. Peters apposing of Symon Magus and saith it was at Rome and him haue many followed since and hence from the common rumors and suspiâ—ions of men sprung vp the Popes chairâ— And who shall then giue assurance of faith in this thing when there is no place of Scripture for it nay when many places are against it These specially Galat. 2.7.9 Now if S. Peter should be Bishop of Rome for so many yeares it vvas against both his order of life and his faith Act. 28.22.23 Novv they could not be so ignorant if that S. Peter for so many yeares before had gouerned that Church S. Paul abode in Rome tvvo yeares and thence writ many Epâ—stles and in them spake of many of the brethren but neuer once named S. Peter supole you hee vvould bee tvvo yeares from his Church Galat. 2.1.2 But he ought rather to haue been at Rome as a good Bishop ought to be vvith his flocke vnlesse you can proue he might substitute a Vicar Besides the Histories themselues are in such â—ariety of opinions that you can hardly tell vvhom to follovv some say he came â—o Rome in the first yeare of Claudâ—us the Emperour some in the second some in the fouâ—â—â— and some in the tenth yeare and it may be that none of these is true sure it is all cannot be true Peter meanes Rome in this place here Campian you are alwaies at a nonplus could yet neuer proâ—ue that Peter was at Rome But you take this for granted and as alreadie prooued which if any man once deny then like the Mathematicians you haue done and can goe no further But why may I not reasonably think that Peter meaneth that Babylon which once was the chiefe Citie of the Assiâ—ians in which Citie certeinly were many Iewes Galat. 2.9 vnto whom Peter was appointed Apostle peculiarly If I should set downe that which I could alleage in this cause I feare I should trie your patience too much In the meane time I allow well your confession that Rome is Babylon and hereafter at your leisure you may declare vpon what occasion the name of it was altered You may not now bee angrie with vs if following Peters example from hencefoorth wee also call Rome Babylon Now I hope at length you will rest and be
satisfied Nay but you proceed still vnto the ages that succeeded Then when Clemens gouerned the Church then also when the Heathen Emperours massacred the Bishops of Rome Euen then I confesse Rome was an excellent Church of Christ Will this content you Nay further you say Then also when Damasus Siricius Anastasius Innocentius executed the Apostolike function This is not to discend by degrees but to leape for you hasten too fast from the forenamed to these But how will you perswade vs to yeeld you thus much Because Caluin as you say frankly confesseth Iâ—st lib. 4. cap. 2. sâ—ct 3 Epist ad Sadâ—l that as yet they had not digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell Doe not you Campian catch hold of that which no man will giue you nor be too confident of others liberalitie Caluin doth not grant that which you take for granted therefore you must redeliuer it Caluin in that place answereth to your ouerworne argument of succession and she weth that the purpose of the Fathers when they alleaged the succession of Bishops was not to proue those to be true Churches where Bishops succeeded one another but this first they assumed as most certaine that from the beginning of the Church vnto the ages whereof they speake there was no alteration in religion and thus they opposed to the new broched errors that doctrine which from the times of the Apostles was still preserued in the Church Caluin then saith not that they had k DVR Do you acknowledge it to bee the Church of Christ vvhich swarueth and strayeth from the Apostles doctrine vvhat can be spâ—ken more absurdly WHIT. pag. 513. You that obiect absurditie to others are most absurde your selfe for vvâ—â— not the Church of the lewes euen then when it abounded with many errors the Church of God The Corinthians and Galathians when they had many waies declined from the doctrine of the Gospell yet S. Paul saluted them 〈◊〉 Churches 1 Cor. 1.2 Gal. 1.2 which he would not haue done if he had not acknowledged them to be Churches for all their errors altered nothing in any point of faith but that the Fathers vsed this argument of succession onely in those cases wherein it might appeare they had innouated and altered nothing Wherefore as we grant that the Church of Rome in the time of these Bishops was the true Church of Christ but that they in nothing digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell that Caluin neuer confessed and wee constantly denie To say nothing of the rest Thus l DVR This error is common to you and many of your felloâ—es for Syricius vvas not the first vve haâ—e a direct Canon of the Councell of Carthage vvhich numbreth this among the Apostolike trâ—ditions Carthag 1. Can. 2. so hath Clemenâ— it in his Epistle to S. Iames the Lords brother Amongest the Grecians the custome of the Priests waâ— not to keepe their wiues as wiues which they bad before their Priest-bood Epiphan hâ—â—rel 59. And Hierome against Viâ—ilantius vigeth this auncient custome of the Church WHIT. pag. 514. But your Gratian writeth that Syritius was the first maker of this impious law The which many Priests before him of their owne acccrd embraced single life yet none was compelled by law against his will and as for the Councell of Carthage it was held in the time of this Syricius And so not before him for your Clemeâ—s you knovv hee is of no vvorth but a meere counterfeite That you report of the Grecians is incredible vvhen as in the Councell of Nice Paphuntius hindred this lavv neither vvould the Grecians euer endure this snare Hierome indeed produceth an old custome but no Apostolike nor yet perpetuall custome Syricius swarued from the doctrine of the Gospell when he intangled the Ministers of the word with the snares of inforced continencie and this doubtlesse was no small digression but a plaine departing froÌ„ the m DVR VVhat Catholike euer said that marriage was euill S. Paul teacheth vs to take beedo of the Manichies and Gnostikes and other heretikes of that sort WHIT. pag. 516. To your question my ansvvere is easie your Syricius and Innocent vvhen they feared Ministers from marriage vsed those reasons vvhich either condemned marriages simplie or els they conclude nothing For vvhen they thus reason Priests may not marrie because they must be the temple and the vessell of the Lord and the Chappell of the holy Ghost therefore they ought not to giue themselues to chambering and vncleannes because they ought to be holy because they shall bee polluted vvith carnall concupiscence and to the vncleane all things are vncleane because they vvho are in the flesh cannot please God What I pray you is this else but to affirme that marriages are euill impure and vvicked Make these then no Catholikes or else your question is ansvvered To tye S. Paul to those auncient heretikes only is absurde as if he deliuered not a perpetuall doctrine for all times yea and he hath taxed not those only vvho condemne marriage but vvho forbid them vvhich cannot be denied but your Pope and Church doth Apostolike doctrine 1. Tim. 4.3 Heb. 13.4 Now at length you make a stay and pursue the histories of the Church no further only you demaund when Rome ceased to be as formerly it had bin vnto which question we haue sufficiently answered If you make doubt whether it now bee the same it was you may also if you list doubt whether the sunne shine at noone For this is as cleere and without question as that the present citie of Rome is become vnlike the auncient flourishing Romans common wealth And as hee could not find Samnius in Samnius and the other of whom the Epigram speaketh wittily who found nought of Rome in the middest of Rome So if you would now in the present n DVR VVhat impudencie is this there vvas neuer heresie that assaulted this Church of vvhich it caried not the victorie As ouer the Donatists Iouinian Pelagius the Britaine and others WHIT. pag. 521. I contempe your reproches and stand to that I haue saide The Church of Rome vvhich once flourished is novv so oppressed vvith Antichrist that besides the outvvard face image countenance of a Church a vaine pompe there is nothing else left in it There is no vvord but it is corrupted vvith pestiferous leaued no Sacrament but polluted vvith sacriledge and corruption no discipline but Antichristian I passe not for your Popes chaire your Colledge of Cardinals the glorie of your Bishops your Priests Monkes Temples riches nothing moue me I search for a liuing Church not bare walles for a man not a picture for a body not a shadow as for your criumphes you boast of they are no more proper to the true Church then the triumphes of old Rome ouer Pyrrhus Anniball Perses Antiochus are to be esteemed the triumphes of Rome novv being Finally as for Pelagius he triumphed ouer the whole Popish kingdome For
meates and prescribed obseruation of daies Apoc. 5. because the Prophet highly commendeth a spirituall fast Esay 48. I wil speake a few words both of the one and other that I may cleerly quit vs of this crime of Homonymie Saint Iohn alone hath not named all p DVR By this argument you may as well proue the Iewes had no Priests properly so called WHIT. pag. 809. Not so for the Lord ordained such a Priesthood amongst them which he hath not amongst Christians Christians Priests 1. Pet. 2.5.9 but S. Peter also hath tearmed them a holy and a royall Priesthood and this name is in no place of the new Testament q DVR So the name Sacrament is neuer giuen to Baptisme nor to the Eucharist in the New testament WHIT. pag. 810. But the substance of it agreeth to them both and is there whereas the name Sacerdos a Priest is not in the nevv Testament nor doth the thing it selfe properly belong to any but Christ since his death DVR Yea Christ instituted a sacrifice in his Supper and where a sacrifice is there is a Priest also WHIT. pag. 810. Christ ordeined theÌ„ no sacrifice but only a Sacrament of a sacrifice DVR Esay calleth the Mâ—nisters of the Gospell Priests cap. 6â— 6 66.21 WHIT. Esay in the first place speaketh of all Christians and in the second of Ministers in the phrase of that time vvhence also you may as well say Deacons are Leuites vvhich you vvill not say they are propeâ—ly DVR Ministers are needlesse except they be Priects and as mediators betwixt God and men vnto saluation and your Ministers are but Lay-men WHIT. pag. 810. â—15 They must preach the Word and administer the Sacraments but not offer sacrifice of mediation betwixt God and men as you say you do in the Masse to do these we haue a calling ordeined of Christ for your sacrifice you haue none DVR The Apostles name them not Priests because they are not of the order of Aaron but the Fathers call them Priests who knevv the Apostles mâ—aâ—ing and you call them Priests in English WHIT pag. 812. Christ only is a Priest after the order of Melchisedecke Heb. 7.3 so then there be no Priests at all you confesse the Fathers call them so by custome but not properly the Apostles of purpose abstaining froÌ„ the name of Priests might teach vs hereafter better vvisdome to do so also properly applied to the Ministers of the Gospell For Christ being made an high Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedech hath no copartners of this r DVR True for it is Christ that presenteth himselfe in the sacrifiâ—e vve onely are as ministers WHIT. p. 814. If you be Ministers only then are you not properly Priests why then will you be so called DVR Yet vve as truely sacrifice as baptise WHIT. Thus you will be Ministers only and no Priests nor be copaâ—tners in Christs sacrifice yet you will bâ— tearmed Priests and truly sacrifice these be contraries and cannot stand together yea meere madnes and dotages Priesthood therefore Christ hath left vnto his Churches a Ministerie and not a new Priesthood Neither doth there remaine to vs Å¿ DVR Thus you strippe the Gospell of all sacrifice and â—eligion WHIT. pag. 816. 817. All your religion by this your doctrine is in your Masse which we willingly haue not but notwithstanding we haue the sacrifice of Christ which is perpetuall and inchangeable Heb. 7 2â— 28 and 10.14 your inuisible sacrifice the Scripture knoweth not any such sacrifice for the administration whereof some speciall Priests must needs be authorised For that sacrifice of praise and doing good Hebr. 13.15.16 which the Apostle mentioneth and which now remaineth onely that I say appertaineth indifferently to all Christians Notwithstanding we permit none to execute the administration of this ministery which Christ would haue to be perpetuall in his Church but them whom it concerneth and who are by due order t DVR VVho called Luther Caluin Beza c. your Ministers WHIT. pag. 820. Luther Zuinglius Bucer c. were Priests of your owne and so had a calling except your order of Priesthood be no calling and might call others by your law Againe God is not tied so to order but that he may for the good of the Church call Ministers extraordinarily And the Churches haue lavvfull povver to chuse Ministers so that we need not to call any from you that seruice as saith Cyprian Epist. 68. Thus were Caluiâ— and Beza chosen called thereunto Albeit then Christ haue made vs all both Kings that we might be able to subdue our sinnes and Priests that we might offer him spirituall sacrifices notwithstanding as it is not lawfull for euery man to dreame of a kingdome so it is a thing detestable for any man to enter vpon the holy Ministery who hath not that function committed vnto him by diuine authoritie Wherefore I see not at all why you should charge vs with any such Homonymy or falshood from ambiguous signification in this word As for your maner of fasting that indeed is wholly in shew and hath nothing in it of a Christian fast but the very name For to make choyce of meates as a thing more religious and to prescribe certaine and perpetuall set dayes wherein we must necessarily fast the u DVR This sauoureth of Luthers spirit but Pope Leo saith that the holy Ghost taught the Apostles the disciplâ—ne of fasting for one of the chiefe Sacraments of heauenly doctrine WHIT. pag. 8â—1 c. Wee allow Christian fasting but vvhat spirit taught Leo to say so of your solemne superstitious fasts the Scriptures speake no such thing which wee preferie before all mens iudgements one is witlesse the other superstitious For what man which is not depriued of iudgement and all sense will thinke that he fasteth who so that he abstaine x DVR No Catholike euer said that the force of fasting consisteth in only abstinence from flesh WHIT. pag. 822. All men know that you call your abstinence from flesh in Lent in the Ember daies the Saint Eues c. fasting and that he who then eateth â—â—sh and other meate in abundance in not said amongst you to violate his fast but if one doe but tast flesh you esteeme him a grieeuous malefactor DVR But Elisha Daniel Iohn Baptist made religious choise of meates vvhich you thus call madnes yea Daniel absteined from flesh and vvine to apprease Gods anger vvhose example teacheth vs also to absteine from daintier meates in time of fasting as the Church hath long accustomed WHIT. pag. 823. These holy men did not fast as you doe and teach for Elisha fed the Prophets with wild and bitter herbes not for religion sake but in time of fâ—â—mine for want of other victuall 2. King 4.39 and Daniel absteined not from some only but from all desireable meates Dan. 10.3 not to appease Gods anger as you say
ouerthrowne all Europe and would haue occupied himselfe as busily in pulling downe of Altars and signes of Christs Crosse as euer Caluin was himselfe Wherefore they are our peculiar enemies Seeing that by our mens industrie hitherto they haue been kept backe from off Christian mens throates Let vs take a view of heretikes Haretici Clem. lib. 1. recog Iren. lib. 1. cap. 2. Cyp. Epist ad Iubatam l. 4. Epist 2. Theodoâ—o de fab haeret Aug. her 46. Epiph. haere 75. Socrat. lib. 2. c. 35. Hier. in Iou. Vigil Aug. her 82. which are the verie dregges and bellowes and fit food for hell fire The first that commeth into my mind is Symon Magus what did he * This is false reade the answere he tooke from man freewill he was still prating of faith only The next that I remember was Nouatian What of him he opposed himselfe to Cornelius the Pope of Rome He was an enemy to the Sacramets of Perance and holy Vnction Thirdly I thinke of Manes the Persian who taught that * He taught that Baptisme did auaile nothing at all Baptisme was not a sufficient meane to worke our saluation After him there started vp Aerius and Arian who condemned prayers for the only and was therefore forenamed the * This was Aetius not Aetius Atheist as well as Lucian was Then followed Vigilantius which would not permit men to pray vnto Saints and Iouinian who maintained marriage to be as excellent as virginitie Finally there came after all the whole rable of heretikes as Macedonius Pelagius Nestorius Eutyches Monothelites Image breakers and others to which number our posteritie will adde also Luther and Caluin what of all these Euery one of them like carion Crowes hatched al of one kind of egge rebelled against the chiefe rulers of our Church and by them were confounded and brought to naught Let vs now leaue speaking of hell to returne to the earth againe Terrae Sedes Apostolica Ep. 162. Whither soeuer I shall cast mine eies and incline my cogitation whether I behold the Patriarkes and Seas Apostolike or the Bishops of other countries or renowmed Princes and Emperours or the first entrance of Christian religion into euery nation or any monuments of antiquitie or the light of reason or the comely sight of honestie Vide Tert. de praesâ— Aug. lib. 2. de Doct. Christ cap. 8. I find that all of them doe dutiful seruice and speake fauourably for our religion witnes hereof the Romane succession In whose Church that I may say as doth S. Augustine * While Augustine liued the principaline of the Apostles chaire flourished in that Church But that apostolike chaire is long agoe ouerthrowne the principality of the Apostolike chaire hath euer been in force witnesses also hereunto are the seas of the rest of the Apostles to whom the name Apostolike most excellently agreeth Because they were first erected by the Apostles themselues or by those that heard them preach Witnesses also are the Pastors of euery Church throughout the wide world who Terra disiunctissima Hieron in cat scrip eccl alij though their abode was in diuers places yet our religion was common to them also As S. Ignatius and S. Chrysostome liued at Antioch S. Peter Alexander Athanasius and Theophilus at Alexandria Macarius and Cyril at Hierusalem Proculus at Constantinople Gregorie Basil at Capadocia Gregorie sirnamed Thaâ—maturgus in Pontus Polycarpus at Smyrna Iustinus at Athens Dionysius at Corinth Another Gregorie at Nissa Methodius at Tyrus Ephreenus in Syria Cyprian Optatus Augustine in Africke Epiphanius in Cyprus Andrew in Creet Ambrose Paulinus Gaudentius Prosper Faustus Vigilius in Italie Iâ—encus Martyrus Hilarius Eucherius Gregorie of Toures and Siluianus in France Vincentius Orosins Heldefonsus Leander and Isidorus in Spaine Fugatius Damanus Iustus Mellitus and Bede in England Finallie lest I should seeme ambitious in reckoning so many names what treatises or fragments of treatises so euer be extant of those as in the Primitiue Church preached the Gospell though in countries farre asunder yet all of them doe deliuer vnto vs one and the selfe-same faith * This is most false which we Catholikes doe at this present professe what cause good Christ could I alleadge before thee for my example but that thou mightest iustly exclude me altogether froÌ„ thy blessed company if I should prefer a number of hedge-creepers both few in account and also vnlearned diuided amongst themselues in opinions of a â—â—so loâ—â— beforâ— sâ—â—â—â—y * You ought not to hang your soule vpon men light â—â—â—â—pes of the Church Witnesses also are all Priâ—â—â—s Principes Kings Emperours and all their Câ—â—â—â—-weales the godlinesse of which Princes themselues Vide Câ—p. To◠〈◊〉 de sâ—â—ctis and also the people vnder their iurisdiction and their good gouernment both in times of peace and of marres haue at the first grounded themselues vpon this sound rocke of our Catholik doctrine What famous men out of the East might I heere recite vnto you that beare the name of Theodosius what worthy men out of the West of the name of Charles what Edwards out of England what Lewesses out of France what Hermingildes out of Spaine what Henries out of Saxony what Winceslaes out of Bohemia what Leopaldes out of Austria What Steuens out of Hungarie what Iosephats out of Indie And finally what noble gouernours of many Empires and Rulers of particular Countries throughout the whole world who by their good example by their force by their lawes by their continuall care by their charges haue maintained our Church For so hath Esay prophesied Esay 48. Kings shall be thy foster Fathers and Queenes shall be thy nurses Giue eare O Queene Elizabeth most mightie Princes to your Maiestie this great Prophet telleth this tale he teacheth you precisely what you haue to doe And I tell you plaine that one heauen cannot containe * You tell vs this thing most foolishly Caluine and these Peeres Let your Maiestie therefore take part with these honorable Princes that you may shew your selfe a condigne heire vnto your noble auncesters answerable vnto your excellent wit correspoÌ„dent to your profound knowledge worthie of high commendations and finallie fit for your royall dignitie Onely this I indeuour as touching your Maiestie and will indeuour whatsoeuer become of me against whom as though I were your deadly enemie these fellowes do so often threaten hanging on the gallowes ô welcome sweet crosse to me ô welcome I say ten thousand times sweet crosse of mine the day will come most soueraigne Lady and Queene Elizabeth euen that day I say will come which shall â—â—â—dently sâ—t before your Maiesties eyes whether of the two haue more sincerely loued you the * Shee hath long agoe and very sufficiently perceiued that how greatly your society hath loued her Fie away varlates societie of Iesuites or Luthers progenie Nationes ad Chriâ—â—â—â— traâ—â—â—â— I go forward there will
a witles kinde of reasoning is this first to recken vp the Saints in Heauen and say these are ours Then to number vp the damned Iewes Gentiles Turkes Heretikes and affirme those are the enemies of our Church To rehearse those Countries that haue been conuerted to the faith of Christ and conclude by and by these are of our Religion would you take this man to bee well in his wits compassing Heauen Earth and Hell so childishly a DVR Jf heere he any thing ridiculous then may you laugh at the Prophet vvho aâ— speedily runnes ouer the whole world And S. Paul tooke a testimony for a truth out of the beathen Poet Act. 17 2â— WHIT. pag. 856. Who knoweth not that God may be knowne by his creatures religion illustrated by nature vncorrupt but what nature I pray you hath taught CamptaÌ„ thus to iudge of the heauenly spirits and the damned soules and of the whole frâ—me of things can he learne by nature that those who haue professed the Popish religion doe novv enioy heauenly happines and that they who dislike it are tormented in hell These weapons of Campian were those that impure Symmachus opposed Christian religion withall Ambros Epist 30. Prudent contra Symmachum ridiculouslie and impertinently taking vnto himselfe what he liketh and reiecting the rest A worthie cauil fit for none but Iesuites which when a man hath by one negatiue discharged can neuer be proued by their peruerse sect and whole societie These dreames of yours Campian are vnworthie any answere one word of denial confutes this whole Chapter I will not bestow much time in answering this Sophisme so vnhansomely framed and patched together it shall suffice lightly to passe and only touch euery thing in a word First therefore you alledge the prophecie of Esay of a straight way wherein the simple should not erre b DVR You shew your ignorance in the Prophet for he speaketh not of the way to the Church but of the Church it selfe vvhich is the high way to heauen WHIT. pag. 857. Howsoeuer you interpret the way it maketh neither much for me nor for you The question is who shall find out that way and walke in it for it is not discerned of all because it is a plaine way nor held of all because it is a right way but he that hath learned Christ is he that walketh in this way without any error though he be but sillie and vnskilfull DVR Jf this be so then can it not be the true Church which conteineth sinners and men polluted And the Fathers by this place exclude only those who are not clensed by Baptisme WHIT. pag. 858. The Prophet speaketh of the Church of the elect and Saints because he saith vers 8. The polluted shall not passe by it and vers 20. the redeemed only whose ioy shall be euerlasting but the visible Church conteineth those which are impure whom Christ hath not redeemed and whose ioy shall perish As for Baptisme it purgeth none but such as lay hold of the promise of free iustification by Christ as Tit. 3.5 Heere the Prophet describes the entrance into Christs Church viz. that it should be ready plaine and easie But this way brings vs not to your Church c for of this way the Prophet reports that no prophane man no Lion or cruell beast shall be found in it whereas all your waies are compassed with polluted men raging beasts Lions Beares Leopards Dragons Diuels and in conclusion they leade miserably bewitched men vnto wofull destruction As for vs we treade that way which Christ and his Apostles haue traced out before vs wee auoyde your erroneous and strange waies because it is the way of sinners that you sâ—â—â—d in which way whosoeuer treadâ— Psal 1.1 Rom. 3.17 the way of peâ—ce they haue not knowne First vnderstand the path well your selues and then direct the way vnto vs. Let vs say you asâ—â—â—d into heauen I feare you Iesuites haue no place there Heauen is for Christians not Iesuites But suppose your selues for the time to be in heauen what followeth Let vs behold say you the Martyrs 33. Bishops of Rome slaine together the Vniuersall Pastors companies of the faithfull all holie Saints Well suruey Campian heauen it selfe and all the heauenly host looke well in all the parts and coasts of it whiles you list you shall not find there vpon my word one Iesuit not one Papist for none shall stand in Mount Zion with the Lamb Apoc. 14.1 that haue receiued the marke of the beast or belong vnto Antichrist But in heauen are 33. Bishops of Rome and many more I doubt not but of all these name me one if you can of your religion whom you may iustly claime as yours Those were holy and faithfull Bishops which shed their bloud for the name of Christ But your Popes for these many hundred yeares what else haue they done but persecuted Christ and murthered his true seruants If those 33. Bishops be in heauen as doubtlesse they are how many late Popes could I recken vp which possibly cannot be where they are in all things they are so vnlike them You pick out a few let vs see who these are Ignatius say you was ours why I pray you He thought no man equall to the Bishop in causes ecclesiasticall not the King himselfe and left in writing certaine Apostolike traditions neither say we that any man is to be compared with the Bishop in such things as belong to his office d DVR If these be so proper to Bishops that they cannot belong to Kings then you being iudge the Queene cannot be the head of the English Church WHIT. pag. 160. We acknowledge no other head of the Church saue Christ And Prince though they may not do any of thâ—se 〈◊〉 yet they rule ouerthem who doe and ought to command them diligently to execute their offices which if they neglect they ought to reproue compell and punish them as we reade the good Kings of the Church Iewish and Christian haue euer done and the reason hath no force Princes haue no authoritie to preach therefore they haue no authority to punish those who teach false doctrine to their people He only ought to ouersee holy things viz. instruction of the people administration of the Sacraments vse of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen These are matters of great weight and exceed the kingly authority yet are Kings aboue Bishops in wealth honor gouernment maiestie and they may lawfully both admonish them of their dutie and restraine them when they offend If Bishops herein would equall themselues with Kings it were too intolerable As for the Apostles traditions which Ignatius hath left in writing we receiue them so farre as they agree with the Apostolicall Scripture if they dissent from those we refuse them The Epistles of Ignatius were most of them counterfet as euery man may see heere you rehearse many and still the vndersong is these are ours Telesphorus say