me in short concerning a Guide in Controversie viz. That a Man after using all Christian means and Pag. 18. the help of all Ministerial Guides possible must at last judge for himself and that this was not to run on his own head As also that their People could know the Voice of their Church it being in their own Language but not so readily the Voice of the Church of Rome it being in an unknown Tongue for the true Interpretation of which the unlearned depend upon the particular Priest that instructed them I say since the Doctor Publishes what he said to me on this subject he ought to have added what I replyed to him tho' likewise it were but very short for the Reasons already given My Talk was to this purpose viz. That if Men after the use of those Christian means and Ministerial Guides he spoke of were by Gods appointment to follow their own Understandings Those Laws must needs be unjust which punished them for doing so And consequently what could the English Penal Laws have to say for themselves which did not enquire whether Men had used Christian Means and Ministerial Guides or not but punished them for following their own Understandings altho' they should have used ever so many Christian means c. before-hand Neither do Men suffer by these Laws only for Doctrins relating to the Civil Government as perhaps the Doctor would insinuate by what * Pag. 24. follows but for Points meerly Religious such as are Transubstantiation Purgatory Invocation of Saints not going to a Protestant Church c. For all which Points they are punished and this to make the case yet harder by such Men as owning themselves Fallible must likewise own that those Opinions for which they punish may be Truths and Those which they would compel us to embrace Errors for ought they know This Subject is so plain and obvious in it's own Nature and there hath been so much said on it already that I shall only add one word by way of of a Recapitulation which is That on the one side we have the Church of England Teaching us to Judge for our selves in Religious Matters and on the other Hanging us for following her Doctrin If we are to be our own Judges why are we Condemn'd for it And if not why are we Taught to be so Most Religions have their Mysteries and therefore this may be allowed to the Protestants But for my part I can sooner admit that God is able to do more than I am able to understand in the Belief of Transubstantiation than that Men can at once have a just ground for the Approbation and Condemnation of the self-same Proceeding It being easier to dis-believe our Senses when our Creator Commands than to forego our Reason when we have no higher Motive for it than the Will of our Fellow-Creatures I must confess that my Discourse on this Subject at the Conference was not so large as it is here by reason of the shortness of those Interlocutory spaces that were allowed us by the Doctor which seemed to be designed by him not so much for our Speaking as for his own Breathing so that I was forced to cramp what I had to say into a few concise and general Propositions and to throw them out before the Doctor was aware of them Viz. That in case we were not bound by Almighty God to submit our Judgment to any others but presupposing the use of the Doctors Christian means were left to the Guidance of our own Understanding in matters of Faith we ought not to be hindred from or which is the same thing punished for Taking it for our Guide in such matters That the Penal Laws Punished us for so doing and therefore were unjust And the like Which Propositions tho' too brief perhaps for their being thoroughly Comprehended by the Rabble of our Hearers were yet sufficient to let the Doctor know what I meant and consequently for a larger Account of them than what we have from him pa. 24. Viz. Mr. M. took leave and just at the Door Muttered something about Penal Laws In which as the Reader will have found there is no Information either of the nature or of the occasion of that Discourse The matter being so obscurely express'd that a Protestant Gentleman of my acquaintance was so far deceived by the Doctors Terms that he imagined that I had risen up in a heat and threatned something as I went away And therefore for the future when Dr. Tenison shall tell us That he thinks it will give the greater satisfaction to tell the whole Truth That Truth is best Painted at full length and that he will let the World know the whole Truth so far as his Memory with all due helps will serve him as he doth pag. 45. 46 and 50. We will be so civil to him as not to understand him in a Literal Sense Dr. T. says in the place above cited that we are to have the help of all Ministerial Guides possible before we must Judge for our selves Now I suppose that by all Ministerial Guides possible the Doctor does not mean all sorts of Guides True or False First Because the Penal Laws hinder us from conversing with those of other Communions And Secondly Because our Saviour himself Commands us to * Matth. c. 7. v. 15. beware of false Prophets Wherefore I would fain know what mark the Doctor hath to distinguish such Ministerial Guides as may be Addressed to from such as may not If he say that we shall know these Guides by the purity of their Doctrin the only Mark commonly assigned by Protestants as was intimated above for That of the True Church Then it must follow that I must first Judge what Doctrin is Pure before I can know what Guides to have recourse to and consequently I must Judge for my self in the particular * Viz. In the Interpretation of the Scripture Doctrins of Christianity before I use the help of these Ministerial Guides Which according to the Doctor is not to be done The Circle in other Terms and more concisely is thus We cannot know what Doctrin is Pure without Guides And we cannot know what Guides to consult without first knowing what Doctrin is Pure If he shall Name Succession Universality or any thing else for the mark of these Guides then we will consider whether That which is assigned belong to the Church of England or not The Doctor seems to say in the close of his * Pag. 18. Answer which as the Reader will perceive was nothing less than one of his usual Digressions from the Point in hand That their People knew the Voice of their Church and needed not to depend upon the Learning of any Particular Priest for it If so How could the Doctor blame this Apprentice as he doth in his 55th Page for not coming to him with his doubts Would he have him repair to a particular Priest for Instruction whilest he Heard
be Real unless it were grounded on * Without Faith it is impossible to please God Heb. c. 11. v. 6. Orthodox Faith. It seemed to me to be a surer mark of Charity for Men to adventure both Estate and Life for the Conversion of others as formerly the Apostles and now the Catholic Missioners did than to keep at home and in our warm Beds and cry We hope or we declare they may be saved tho' they are in an Error Which if it were a Charity was in my opinion a very Lazy one Moreover if the Protestant Religion were false it was more Charitable in the Catholics to tell them so than by soothing them in their Error to engage them faster to it Wherefore the Protestants ought not to fetch an Argument as some most unreasonably do for the Truth of their Religion from their having as they imagin a greater Charity than Catholics since it must first be proved that their Religion is true before it will appear that the Catholics want Charity in condemning it Lastly If it must pass for a Sign of Charity to think well of more Religions than one the Turkish Tenets will have the advantage of the Nine and Thirty Articles forasmuch as the Mahometans declare that every one will be saved in his own Religion and the Articles on the other side confine Salvation to the * See 18th Article Christians only But both these Charitable Religions must give way to the Origenists who will have neither Men nor Devils to be Eternally Damned Wherefore it is apparent that this plausible pretence of Greater Charity weakens not the force of the forementioned Argument but leaves it Such as that the most cautious Christian may safely repose on it Nay the more cautious a Man is in his everlasting concerns the better and safer this Argument will appear to him For those who have a quicker Sense of their Temporal Interests than their Spiritual will not so much consult what is safe for their Souls as what is secure for their Estates And if both cannot be made sure alike they will trust a scanty probability or rather an Improbability with the former so that they may have Demonstration which yet Gods knows can be but Imaginary for the latter Now what would Dr. Tenison have me do in these circumstances Would he have me Read the Scriptures Iread them Would he have me peruse the Fathers I did it without his advice Would he have me make use of what he calls * Pag. 18. Ministerial Guides I heard the Instructions of the English Clergy for many Years Would he have me pray I looked on Prayer as the chief means of obtaining true Faith and therefore omitted it not Would he have me be humble In this Point I can only say that during this search I had so mean an Opinion of my own understanding that I could not but conclude that Almighty God whose Providential care appeared in all other things had likewise provided some * Such a guide must be one who could not Err himself i. e. Infallible Guide for me that I might not Err in so important a concern as that must needs be without which it was impossible to please him viz. * Ut supra Hebr. 11. 6. Faith. Wherefore having thus far observed as I suppose the Doctors directions what would he have me do after all Doth he require the interior Sense he speaks of pa. 10 That also pleaded for the Roman Catholics And now if this be all he looks after would he have me according to what he says p. 15. at last Judge for my self Why then I do Judge and Pronounce too I mean for my self that Holy Scriptures Antient Fathers and Common Reason are all for the Roman Catholics and against the Protestants And what shall interpose between this Sentence and it's Execution I mean between Concluding that the Roman Catholic Religion is the best and Embracing it as such Doth the Church of England pretend that I ought to submit my private Judgment to her Public Decisions She doth not Nor if she did would Dr. Tenison be her Advocate And therefore to conclude if Dr. T being as I conceive no great friend to Retractations of this kind will still affirm that I departed from the Church of England on false Principles he must at least acknowledge that those principles were such as I had received from her So that in effect I am censured by my Teachers for doing that very thing which they Taught me to do An hard case and that which certainly must prevail with us to observe our Saviours Command in being * Matth. c. 7. v. 15. aware of such Teachers for the future I have said nothing here at least directly of the marks of the True Church viz. Vnity Holiness Universality Perpetuity Conversion of Infidels and the like nor of many other things which concurr'd at that time to convince me of the truth of of the Religion I embraced But thus much I have said that since Dr. Tenison hath been pleased to make the World acquainted with my Conversion it may not be wholly ignorant of those Motives which occasioned it And since we are Commanded * Ready always to satisfie every one that asketh you a Reason of that Hope which is in you 1 Pet. c. 3. v. 15. to give a Reason of the hope which is in us to every one that asks when we are upbraided with our change in this public manner the public seems to demand this Reason and consequently we seem to lie under an obligation of rendring it Which I hope will excuse me with my Readers for so long a Comment on the Doctors Text. And now to return to my Remarks methinks Dr. Tenison conceiving that I had left his Church for want of due Information ought not to have press'd so much for my being excluded from that Conference but rather to have been glad of this opportunity wherein by his great Learning he might have rectified my understanding and been a means of reducing me to one of his two fair Flocks viz. to St. Martins in the Fields or St. James Westminster For tho' those Flocks are so numerous that one stray Sheep can hardly be found missing yet we know it was the property heretofore of a good Shepherd to leave the Ninty Nine that he might seek after the Hundredth this being perhaps in former days a competent number for one Shepherd I say it had been a clearer sign not only of the Doctors Charity but also of his confidence in the goodness of his cause to have admitted me to his Conference than to pretend my turning Roman Catholic through Ignorance as an Argument for the sending me away and consequently depriving me of what he ought to think an opportunity of being better informed But perhaps the Doctor who thought this Conference * Pa. 3. And yet D. T. was displeased with Mr. P for proposing a Rule of Faith for the Subject of that
worse because it wanted his Approbation I question not but he likes the Reformation as well for not sending Missions into China as for not endeavouring to do good in Coffee-houses The Doctor may call to mind what Instructions were given by St. Paul to Timothy viz. That he should be zealous in his Exhortations even to importunity Preaching as well out of season as in it and then perhaps he will not think it such a mortal Offence to endeavour the reclaiming of a Soul from Error or Vice wheresoever a probability of doing it or even a possibility shall appear especially when he considers that some men are such studious shunners of Pious Instructions that unless they meet with them amidst their Pastimes and when they least think of them they will always want them Such is the goodness of our Lord that when the Guests come not where they may be regularly invited he sends his Servants into the High-ways c. to call them But the Keepers of these Houses will be Losers by such Disputes for men do not love to lace their Coffee with Controversies Dr. St. knows how great an Argument Gain is with most men The Author of a Seasonable Discourse against Popery did it before him when he addressed two of his main Dissuasives to the Grasiers and the Lawyers putting them in mind that if Catholic Religion should be restored in England the one would be impoverish'd by Fasting-days and the other by Appeals to Rome and so engaging that Passion viz. the love of Money to be of his side which as a Divine he ought to have preached against But no damage ought to be apprehended from that which is good And forasmuch as concerns Coffee-houses if men love not to lace their Coffee with Controversie they may lace it with somewhat else or else drink it plain here being variety of Discourses as well as Liquors and a great Liberty of Conscience of calling for what they please Neither is Disputation it self such a Nuisance to this Trade as Dr. St. imagins for let but the Doctor since he thinks it no crime to go to a Coffee-house honor one of them with his Presence tho' with a Disputing design and I will undertake it shall have Custom enough and particularly Mr. G.'s as often as he is in Town This Marginal Note is too long but the matter lay so near my Road that I could not forbear the taking a view of it Discourses were vented in them there being no places so Sacred which such things as these had not access to some time or other no not the Pulpits themselves I consider'd indeed that Misrepresentations of late had been more frequent in Pulpits than formerly wherefore I hinted it was to be feared that e'r long none of them would be left but what would have met with some Misrepresenter or other I will not deny what indeed is evident in it self that I reflected on some Preachers but how this could pass for a Complement on the whole London-Clergy I stand in need of Dr. St.'s Subtilty to make out for as my saying that some Lyes were told in Coffee-houses did not reflect on all those who frequented them nay I was then actually endeavouring to excuse the frequenting them so neither could my intimating that the Pulpits had been liable to some part of that Misfortune concern all those who Preached in them Indeed my Complement as the Doctor calls it was so far from being design'd by me to all the London-Clergy that I directed it not to Dr. St. himself any farther than his own Conscience should look on it as belonging to him However had he taken it to himself I should not have contended so much to have rescu'd it out of his hands I question not but there is a great deal of sincerity amongst the London-Clergy and even so much as to acknowledge that every individual Member of that Body hath it not And after all had it been true as it was not that I had reflected on this whole Clergy what had That been in comparison of Dr. Tenison's If you are a Papist c. which takes in so many Countreys and Ages and even his own Sovereign These are two Instances what Use these Gentlemen can make of their Inferring Faculties when they see it for their purpose Is there any thing here half so plain or so naturally deduced as that which I drew from Dr. Tenison's Proposition Nay rather are not the Inferences of these two Doctors evidently forced whereas mine is genuine and obvious even to the meanest Understanding And yet base and unworthy ways of catching men are laid to my charge and these Gentlemen pass for Plain-dealers But this will not always be so There is a time to come in which there will be nothing of what is now hidden but what shall be revealed And then it will appear how ill a choice those have made who have preferred Fame before Truth and the saving of their Credit before the saving of their Souls The Doctor says farther That for his part he thought his Loyalty at this time to be more valuable than Mr. M. 's because he as a Son of the Church of England professed he would not Rebel against the King notwithstanding he might be of another Religion whereas Mr. M. being of the same Religion could not so well separate Loyalty from Interest Now for my part tho' I hold Works of Supererogation yet I am far from thinking Loyalty at least as it is here * Viz. A not Rebelling against the King. describ'd to be one of those And therefore it is my opinion that we ought as little to value our selves on our not being Rebels as we would do on our not being Thieves or Murderers nay rather less forasmuch as Theft and Murther are certainly less Criminal than Rebellion And therefore a Loyalty to be boasted of if there be any such must be somewhat more than an ordinary Obedience However if the Doctor think his Loyalty at this time more valuable than mine because he demeans himself peaceably under a Prince of a different Religion he ought to remember that for three years which he hath lived so it has fallen to my share to pass over twelve in the same manner only with this difference that He enjoys entire Priviledges of a Free-born Subject sitting under a large Fig-tree and gathering the Fruit of a well-spread Vine and is promis'd the continuance of them having no other * Vnless perhaps a Restraint from vexing others and consequently the want of the old more effectual method of silencing Jesuits be an inconvenience to him cause of disquiet save only what ought to prompt him to nothing but Gratitude the bare Contemplation that were it not for the Goodness of his Sovereign it might have been otherwise These I say are his Enjoyments during this great trial of his Fidelity whereas I on the other side during my Probation was not only debarr'd of those Advantages which my Education
Learned Protestants But on the contrary I have been so far from repenting that I turned so Young that the more I read or discoursed of these matters the more I discerned the Excellence of the Catholic Religion on the one hand and the blindness of so many of my fellow Creatures on the other and consequently I had no other causes for grief than first that my Conversion was no sooner and next that I had not yet been grateful enough that it was so soon The Doctor says that * Pag. 5. no Man who well understands their Church departs from it upon true Principles And I am much mistaken if there be not very many who know well enough what the Church of England Teaches and yet depart from her on no other principles than those which they learnt from her self viz. That the Church is to be followed no farther than she agrees with Scripture and every particular Man is left to judge how far she agrees with it It would be tedious and unnecessary to set down here all those Principles or Motives upon which I departed from the Church of England since I cannot so much pretend to extraordinary things as to deny but that they are the same which have led others from her both before and since and may be seen at large in many Books However if my Readers will give me leave I will lay before them some of those Points which began my doubts and prevail'd more particularly with me * Some Motives of my Conversion to the Catholic Faith. First I had been taught that the Church of Christ continued pure for the first Five Hundred Years after it's Institution and that from thence downwards several gross Errors and Corruptions had crept into it and that it had been infected with these Plagues for about a Thousand Years And that then Almighty â—od out of his Infinite Commiseration enlightned Martin Luther Zuinglius and other as I thought Pious Men so far as that they clearly discern'd these Corruptions Preach'd against them and by that means rescued a great number of Christians from that darkness which the Gates of Hell contrary to our Lords promise or some unaccountable Fatality had engaged them in And Lastly that I my self had been so happy as to be one of this number This was that Idea of Christianity which I then had For as to what they talk'd of a constant Succession of Protestants from the fifth Age down to our times I had never heard it from any Wise Man nor indeed can such an Imposture find place with any one who is so much an Historian as the common Discourse will make him Every body knows that the first Reformers when they left the Roman Church joyned with no other Society or Sect of Christians then in the World either in Communion or Doctrin which must have been done had this pretended Succession continued Their pretence was at that time to Reform the whole Church and not to seek out any True one which then had a Being and stood in no need of Reformation Nay they were so far from thinking it necessary to joyn with any former Church in order to the preserving a Succession that they did not unite with one another But parted their stock and each Adventurer set up for himself This then was the most Rational Account that I could give of my Faith viz. That our Church finding that all Christian Churches had been in Error for a Thousand Years forsook that Error and reformed it self according to the pattern of the first Five Hundred Years after Christ For to be of a Christian Church which never had any being from Christs time till this present I thought a most unreasonable thing Now none can write after a Copy without having that Copy which they pretend to Write by I mean it was impossible for the Church of England to Reform it self according to the first Five Hundred Years of Christianity without knowing what those Christians Taught and Practis'd And how could this possibly be done but by the Holy Fathers and other Writers of those times Wherefore I firmly believed as I am persuaded many Thousands do that these Writers were meer strangers to all those Doctrins which we had forsaken and consequently that no mention was made amongst them of Purgatory Prayer for the Dead Invocation of Saints Veneration of Holy Images and Relics the Sacrifice of the Mass the Reality of Christs Flesh in the Eucharist the Decisive Authority of the Church in Controversial matters the Spiritual Supremacy of St. Peter and his Successors with some other things of this nature I say I took it for granted that nothing of all this was to be found in those Primitive Records of the Christian Religion But when I looked into them I found it quite otherwise and that those things which hitherto I had accounted Novelties were as clearly set down in these Writings as any other Points of Christian Doctrin For instances to avoid length I will refer my Readers to a Book not long since Published Entituled Nubes Testium which hath Collections out of some of those Books which then fell into my hands and must weigh with Men of any tolerable moderation notwithstanding that which is or can be said against it Now what was there for me to be done in this condition I had taken it on trust that I was a Member of a Church which had Copied out the first Five Hundred Years but found my Error It was not unknown to me that several Quotations out of the Fathers were produced in the behalf of Protestant Opinions But-to me they all seemed wrested or at least capable of interpretations which were not repugnant to what the same Fathers more plainly and fully speak in other places for a contrary Doctrin In a word what appeared to me in favor of the Catholic Cause was clear full and incapable of any other meaning But that which offered it self in opposition to it was obscure short and interpretable in another sense and indeed for the most part evidently requiring another when joyned to it's antecedents and consequents Others said That the Fathers were Men and had Errors and that they contradicted one another and themselves to boot But this Plea was as little to my satisfaction as the former For this serves only to weaken the Authority of the Fathers and if good evinces nothing but that They are not to be relyed on And then how can the Church of England make out that she follows the first Five Hundred Years when she hath no other means of knowing what was believed in those times but by such Authors as are not to be trusted For what some People say of our being able to know by Scripture what was the Belief and Practice of these Primitive Christians is wholly absurd For we know not from Scripture at least according to the Principles of the Church of England whether the Christians of the first Five Hundred Years lived according to the Scripture
or not The Scripture does not tell us of a Church which is to continue only to the end of the Fifth Age. It tells us indeed of one which is to continue to the End of the World And this Church I hope may be found as well in the Fourteenth Age as in the Fifth For if all the Christians of the Fourteenth were Erroneous and Corrupted and stood in need of Reformation those of the Fifth might have been so too for any thing which the Scriptures can assure us to the contrary This Rock then of my Protestant Faith being shaken I mean a Belief that the Church of England had Model'd it self according to the Doctrins of the first Five Hundred Years it will not be wonder'd at if at least I gave way to some doubts I found no better footing in that way which was taken by those Church of England-men who conversed more with Roman Catholics than with Protestant Dissenters viz. Scripture as it is understood by every private Man. First Because those who took that way differed from one another in most material things and also Such as were esteemed Heretics by the Church of England followed the same Rule Secondly Because according to my own Judgment who were by this Rule to judge for my self the Church of England was beholding to Tradition for some Parts of her Doctrin and Practice as Infant-Baptism the Observation of the first Day of the Week and the like having no clear Scripture for them and therefore could not hold them and require them to be held by the Rule of Scripture Interpreted without the help of Tradition Thirdly Because it was sincerely my own Judgment that the Scripture was much clearer for the Catholics than for the Protestants particularly in Transubstantiation Sacramental Confession Extreme Vnction Purgatory St. Peters Supremacy and lastly and chiefly being that which includes all other Points the Decisive Authority of the Church wherefore if I must follow Scripture Interpreted by my self I must at the same time necessarily cease to follow the Church of England These certainly were Motives if not for an absolute departure from the Church of England yet still at least as I have already hinted for the doubting of her Truth About this time I remember that I had two notions concerning Faith. First That Faith was not that which must necessarily suit with the Fancies of particular Men since then it ought to be as various as those Fancies were but it was that which God would have us believe whether we fancied it or not viz. That which he would have us * Bringing into Captivity all understanding into the Obedience of Christ 2 Cor. c. 10. v. 5. submit our Fancies and Judgments to meerly because it was revealed by him And in this submission as I thought consisted both the Difficulty and Merit of Faith. And consequently that I ought not so much to consider the nature of the things proposed to be believed as the Authority by which they were proposed Secondly That this Faith was the * Ephes c. 2. v. 8. Gift of God and for that reason that more confidence was to be put in humbe Prayer for the obtaining it than in any Human Skill or Industry Wherefore as far as God Almighties Grace assisted my weakness I endeavored to obtain this Gift by that means making it my earnest Prayer to his Divine Goodness that I might know the Truth and firmly purposing to embrace that which I should be convinced of tho' it should be ever so contrary to my Worldly Interest as the Roman Catholic Religion at that time most apparently was To Prayer I judged it necessary to add a serious endeavor of amending my Life lest otherwise I should be found to sue Hypocritically for more light from Almighty God whilst I made no use of that which I had received from him by complying with what I already knew to be his Will. This is a Point which all those who are in search of the True Faith ought to examin their Consciences upon and therefore I would not omit the mention of it in this place Amidst these doubts I confess ingenuously that what our English Doctors have made so light of was of great moment with me viz. That the Church of England-men affirmed that Salvation might be had amongst the Roman Catholics but the Roman Catholics absolutely denyed that the like was to be had amongst them For Salvation in the Roman Communion both Churches concurr'd whereas for the latter we had only the bare word of Protestants in their own behalf Who likewise at the same time told us they were fallible and consequently for ought they knew might be mistaken And if they were actually mistaken I should be undone by rarrying with them whereas on the other side if they were not mistaken I could receive no damage by being amongst the Roman Catholics In a word I considered that if the Protestants were true I should be safe with the Roman Catholics but if the Roman Catholics were right I could not be so with the Protestants This Motive is so strong in it's own Nature that many Protestants confess that it must needs have great Power with those who as they say cannot throughly examin the differences betwixt us and these I take to be the greatest part of Mankind And if so I will venture to add that GOD Almighty having taken as much care of the Ignorant as of the Learned would never permit Falshood to be supported by such Arguments as must in common Prudence oblige all unlearned persons to be engaged in it But above all methinks this Argument should be of force with those Vniversal Gentlemen who pretend that their Religion is the Catholic because they believe nothing but that wherein all agree forgetting that such a Restraint of their Belief is peculiar to themselves and not common whereas here is an Agreement of all Parties at least such as have any Esteem with them on which they may safely rely viz. That Salvation may be had in the Roman Catholic Church which is all we do or at least ought to aim at by our Religion As for those other Points which perhaps they hold viz. A Deity a Saviour and the like tho' they have the universal consent of all Christians for their Truth yet they have it not for their sufficiency to Salvation especially so as to exclude the Necessity of believing other Articles when they are duly proposed and it will be of small Consequence to them that what they hold common with others proves True if their additional Article which holds this Truth to be sufficient should prove False What was urged in derogation of this Argument as if the Protestants shew'd a greater Charity by thinking well of Catholics than Catholics did by thinking ill of them was nothing to my purpose For I was then in search of True Faith and not of Charity and knew withal that how great appearance soever there might be of Charity it could not
Conference because it was not that point which the Boy had mentioned to him viz. of Luther whereas had be designed a more public Good as be seems to pretend Mr. P's Question was the more proper to no purpose as to the Boy for his having been at Mass two Months before concluded that it would be less available with me who had been many years since not only at Mass as many * who else are those who carry intelligence from the Mass-house to Dr. Horneck p. 79. Protestants daily are but also actually reconciled to the Church of Rome And indeed for as much as concerns this Point I am persuaded that the Doctor is not out in his Observations For let but a Man be truly Converted to the Roman Catholic Faith I do not say for two Months but for one single moment and it will be impossible for all the Doctors in England to remove him from it till such time as his own negligence and ingratitude shall oblige Almighty God to withdraw this Marvellous Light from him And it is on this account that I have often said amongst my Protestant acquaintance that I wished they were but Catholics for one half hour Dr. Tenison says that those who forsake the Church of England for the Church of Rome are * Pag. 5. more partial and possessed with a Spirit of fiercer Bigottry than those who are Romanists from the beginning It is indeed usual for Converts to shew somewhat more of warmth in Religion than they had before their Conversion or perhaps than some who owing their Faith to their Birth and Education have not yet sufficiently considered the value of it One of the most essential proprieties of Goodness is to be Communicative and therefore as soon as Men are brought to the true Faith one of the first desires which they perceive in themselves is that of the Conversion of others * When thou art once Converted confirm thy Brethren Luke c. 22. v. 32. Tu aliquando Conversus said our Blessed Saviour to St. Peter confirma fratres tuos The Samaritan Woman as soon as she was Converted left her Employment * The Woman therefore left her Water-pot c. John c. 4. v. 28. and ran to call her Neighbors And it is not without Mystery that the Holy Ghost is careful to Record of several Converts in the Gospel that when they believed * See ibid. v. 53. their whole Houshold believed with them This indeed is a zeal so proper to Converts that where nothing of it appears the Conversion is shrewdly to be suspected Especially when it shall so happen that the causes of Pretence are more apparent than the Symptoms of Reality And it is this zeal as I conjecture which the Doctor calls Bigottry Wherein he imitates the rest of the World who think it sufficient for the discredit of a Vertue to mis-name it Such I mean as give the Title of Niggardliness to Temperance of Sheepishness to Modesty of Folly to Conscientiousness and lastly where the Doctor falls in with them of Bigottry to Christian Zeal And probably it was this Zeal which rendred the Boy so * Pag. 2. uneasie to his fellow Servants those who are looser in their manners being seldom complained of for this kind of troublesomeness For Men are generally so much in love with the enjoyments of this life that whosoever talks to them of the last Reckoning Day and that care wherewith they ought to provide for it is but very ill Company And so often-times we forfeit the love of our friends by shewing them ours And believe me there can never be a greater Deâ—â—nstration of our Affection for them than when we hazard the loss of their kindness to us which is our Good for the sake of their Salvation which setting aside the Merit of a Good Work is purely their own But whereas the Doctor fancies that original Romanists would be more propitious to his Party than Converts If I may guess by my own experience he is much mistaken It has been my observation that some who have been bred Catholics from the beginning having never been without that clearness wherewith the Truth of our Holy Faith is represented to them are very hardly to be persuaded but that such Protestants as Dr. Tenison viz. Men of some Learning must needs know that they are in the wrong and consequently persisting in it be Hypocrites And indeed the Motives for the Catholic Faith are so palpably evident throughout all the Writings of the Antient Fathers and Ecclesiastical Historians which ought to come into the hands of those who pretend to the Study of Divinity that I believe I should have been very apt to have Joyned with them in this censure had I been unacquainted with the prejudices of Inclination Education and Interest or with those obscurities which they never fail of bringing upon the mind Whereunto may be added that blindness which God Almighty often * Spargit Deus paenales caecitates super illicitas cupiditates Aug Confess inflicts on us for the punishment of our other Sins But as it is and in regard that I have been under the same circumstances tho' not with so much Learning haud ignarus mali miseris succurrere disco I have spoiled the Verse that I might not Err in the * Pag. 10. Gender the Doctor being as I see curious in thâ—se matters I have now learnt to have compassion for Those as persons deceiv'd whom otherwise I might have abhorred as Dissemblers And when the Doctor shall have considered these things well I believe that if the Sincerity of his Profession should come to be tryed by a Jury of Catholics he would not prefer Original ones before Converts No Gentlemen Converts are not fiercer towards you than other Catholics but you deal less fiercely with others than with them the Yellowness which appears to a Jaundic'd person is not in the Object but in his Eye The fierceness is in your brest towards the Converts and not in theirs towards you And this the Doctor knows well enough and therefore hath recommended me under so advantagious a Character to the acquaintance of his Parishioners Which as he thinks will stand me in some stead another day Now it is not hard to guess at the Reason why Converts are more severely handled by their Protestant Neighbors than other Catholics and the nearer for the most part the Neighbr-hood or Relation is the rougher the usage It is because when a Protestant is Converted we are more sensibly put in mind of what we ought to do than by those who have never been otherwise than Catholics And by a Neighbor or Kins-man still more sensibly than by a stranger or one at a distance We are disturbed by such an Example in that drousie Principle that every one ought to continue in that Church wherein he was * Some go farther and say that Men ought to continue in that Religion wherein they were Educated
our Saviour had said If he will not hear the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen and a Publican which is the subject of our present Controversie He adds in the very next Verse speaking to his Church Verily I say unto you whatsoever you shall Bind on Earth shall be Bound in Heaven c. * The Doctor ought to have considered what came after his Text as well as what went before the one having as manifest a regard to it as the other This Term WHATSOEVER whether it regard the Persons or the Things which fall under the Ecclesiastical Censure or else Both is of a most general Signification So that it is evident that the Power given in this place hath no other Restriction or Limit but the Will and Determination of those to whom it is given there being nothing more required for the Binding or Loosing a Thing in Heaven than that the Church should determin to Bind or Loose it on Earth Which proves what I asserted above viz. That the Church hath Power to Judge in all those things wherein she Declares Her self to have it It is true however that being always Guided by the same Holy Spirit which invests her with this Authority she can never Declare Her self to be our Judge but where she ought and where it is highly for our Advantage that she should be so My Discourse on this occasion was to this effect but as I have said of those on other subjects much shorter tho' this was the fairest opportunity of speaking that Dr. Tenison allowed me during the whole Conference In Conclusion I assured the Doctor that I was wholly convinced that the abovementioned Text as I declared before had quite another meaning than what he gave of it And therefore I ask'd him whether being so convinced as I was I ought to follow his Interpretation or my own He Answered that he would appeal to the Company whether the Sence which he gave of the place were not * Had it been plain it would not have stood in need of his explanation plainly so I told him that this would not serve my turn for tho' that Company should happen to be all of his Mind as they were not there being some amongst them of my own Judgment yet so long as my opinion continued as it was I should be still at the same loss unless the Doctor could inform me whose Judgment I was to trust my Own or Theirs The Doctor said that for the right Interpretation of Scripture I ought to examin the Originals consult Learned Men * Why so much ado for what be said was plain Had the Company he appealed to done all this c. Whereas said he this Boy did none of these things he came not to Me nor to his Master c. and so striking out of the Road with a Cavil about the Boy I could never get him into it again Had I been able to have held him to the Point a little longer he must have granted me according to his own principle of Every ones Power of Judging for himself That seeing I Judged the Sense of Holy Scripture to be Different from what he thought I was as much bound to dis-believe his Doctrin as he was to believe it Which would have been an excellent instance how much Dr. Tenison's Rule of Faith tended to the Vnity of it And undoubtedly must have sounded very strangely in the Ears of his Parishioners notwithstanding their great esteem and affection for him Which I question not but the Doctor was well aware of and therefore thought it more to his purpose to chide the Boy for not having wash'd his Face as the Story goes of such another Answerer than to suffer the Disputation to proceed And yet this is the Doctor who in this very place desires that his Adversary would * Pag. 21. stick to something But non videmus id Manticae quod à tergo est I have already taken notice of a Sentence or two which the Doctor sets to my account more than I can remember my self to have been guilty of There is another of them pa. 21. viz. Mr. M. asked Dr. T. if he could tell Chapter and Verse throughout the Bible And I think there are one or two more of the like nature But they are of so little importance one way or other that tho' I believe they were never spoken by me yet they shall be said or not said as the Doctor pleases But touching what he says pa. 18. Of something spoken to me about the Conference betwixt some Gentlemen of the Church of Rome and Dr. Stillingfleet and Dr. Burnet I remember nothing of it Neither had I any concern in that Conference or in any thing relating to it In the Doctors 22d and 23d Pages the Reader will find the following Lines After this Dr. T. said to Mr. P. there was one thing remaining and fit to be said to him He had in a Printed Paper promised not to tamper about Religion with the Protestant Boys who should come to the Savoy-School it had appeared that he tampered with Boys out of his care and would do so much more with those under it he said it did not follow because of his word which he would not break and that for this Boy he had done it in order to his everlasting Salvation Dr. T. answered that being your Principle that all out of your Communion are Damned you being a Jesuit and a Papist must break your word in that Paper for the necessary good as you think of the Souls of the Boys especially you having hope of turning Boys under your care Mr. M. said to Dr. T. This reflects upon the King. Another more loud this reflects upon the King and suggests that he will break his word And Mr. P. joyned in the Accusation but many of the Hearers cryed out against them and said it was a Knavish trick Mr. M. was going away Dr. T. called to him and desired him not to run away with a false Tale. Mr. M. denyed he said such words Dr. T. told him he did and that for his part he thought his Loyalty at this time to be more valuable than Mr. M's Because he as a Son of the Church of England professed he would not Rebell against the King notwithstanding he might be of another Religion whereas Mr. M. being of the same Religion could not so well separate Loyalty from Interest Dr. T. being concerned at this false and unworthy way of catching Men did say to Mr. M. at the Door of the first Room that if he had persisted in this Trick he could not have forborn to have given him the Name of Evidence Meredith Here it is that the Doctor Storms indeed Here it is that his Rage breaks forth Hunc tu Romane Caveto Here it is that he manifests the Truth of what he tells us in his Epistle to his Parishioners and convinces us at length that amidst so many things there
wished Rest to none but those who as they thought already enjoy'd it And even this Wish of theirs if it had Charity it had also in my Opinion Weakness in it And truly it had so in my Opinion too for I must not always differ with the Doctor if they wished Rest to none but those whom they supposed to enjoy it already For would it not be a Weakness in Me or in any one else whom the Doctor should take for a better Friend to wish that Dr. Tenison were possess'd of the two Parishes of St. Martin's and St. James's And if a man should wish tho' ever so heartily that the Doctor had a great deal of Sincerity I am afraid that he would take it for somewhat worse than a Weakness tho' at the same time the Party should tell him that he imitated some Christians about the Fourth Age in wishing to Folks no more than what they believed they had already But why should the Doctor fancy thà t those Holy and Learned Men I mean the Ancient Fathers those Pillars of Christianity during the first and purest Ages of the Church and those whom not only Mr. Thorndyke but the whole English Reformation pretends to imitate why I say should he imagin that these Great Men were guilty of so much Weakness Certainly if Christian Religion be a * Rom. 12. 1. Reasonable Service we cannot think that the Best Christians were the most Vnreasonable Men. These Fathers pray'd for the Dead in most express Terms they offer'd Sacrifices for them they begg'd of Almighty God to forgive them their sins they exhorted the Faithful to do the like they declared that such Prayers and Sacrifices were beneficial to the Souls of the Deceased St. Augustin hath a whole * Viz. De curâ pro Mortuis Book on this Subject and there is scarce any one of the Fathers who hath not somewhat to the same purpose And were all these Doings for nothing Did they think that their Prayers would help none but those who stood in no need of their help which is as much as to say that they would help none at all Certainly the Doctor cannot think this But all Truths are not to be spoken at all times It is better that the Fathers should pass for Weak Men in * Would not such Praying also be a Mocking of God the Taking his Name in vain and the Being guilty of Idle words even at our Devotions Praying where they knew it was to no purpose than that the Papists should have so strong a proof of Purgatory from the Consent of the Ancient Church that the Dead in some cases might be helped by the Prayers of the Living And their praying for none but whom they * If by thought he means absolutely supposed thought to be already in Happiness is so far from being true that they prayed not for the * Ideoque habet Ecclesiastica disciplina quod Fideles noverunt cùm Martyres recitantur ad Altare Dei ubi non pro ipsis oretur pro caeteris vero commemoratis Defunctis oratur Injuria est enim pro Martyre orare cujus nos debemus orationibus commendari St. Aug. Serm. 17. de verb. Ap. cap. 1. Martyrs meerly because they concluded them to be Happy and consequently not to stand in need of their Prayers It is worth observing after what fashion this matter is spoken of by the Doctor He imitated says he some Christians about the Fourth Age. By some Christians I suppose he means all the Holy Fathers of that Time and indeed he might have taken in the whole Catholic Church in which as * In Machabaeorum libris legimus oblatum pro mortuis Sacrificium Sed etsi musquam in Scriptur is veteribus omninò legeretur non parva tamen est Universae Ecclesiae quae in hac Consuetudine claret Authoritas ubi in precibus Sacerdotis quae Domino Deo ad ejus Altare sunduntur locum suum habet etiam commendatio mortuorum St. Aug. lib. de Curâ pro mortuis c. 1. St. Augustin assures us this Practice of Praying for the Dead was Universal By about the Fourth Age I suppose he means the said Fourth and the two next to it both before and after viz. the Fifth and the Third and to these he might if he had so pleased have added the Two First So that we have the settled Custom of all Antiquity deliver'd to us as the peculiar or private Practice of some Christians about the Fourth Age. Neither is this without Mystery For having said in his first Book p. 16. that he would not part with the Fathers and having now an occasion of dismissing them as weak men he signs their Discharge in other Names that he may not seem to be worse than his word When he can discover any thing in their Writings which may be wrested for his purpose they shall be as much Fathers as you please but when he catches them holding a Popish Doctrin they are out of Favor and must be turn'd into some Christians about the Fourth Age. But if the Doctor means by what he says in this place that there were some Christians about the time he mentions who imagined that Souls could not be help'd by Prayers or Wishes and therefore wish'd Rest to none but whom they supposed to enjoy what they wish'd them and so dissented from the Universal Church which as hath been shewn pray'd for the Dead out of another Principle There might for ought I know have been some such Christians but as yet I never heard of them Lastly if by some Christians wishing Rest to such as they thought to have it he means that they had so good an Opinion of those they pray'd for as to think they were already received into Bliss he need not play the Antiquary so much as to go to the Fourth Age for such Christians as these They may be found in the Seventeenth We our selves the Catholics of these times are not so uncharitable but that we think that many of our Deceased Brethren whom we recommend to Almighty God in our daily Prayers are already in the fruition of that Glory which we so earnestly sollicite for them but because we do but think so and are not certain of it we still continue our usual Intercessions left possibly it may not be so well with them as we imagin And so our Charity is exercised both ways as well by offereing this Relief to our Friends as by having so good an Opinion of them at the same time as to think they need it not And in this manner St. Augustin pray'd for his Mother For tho' as he says himself she lived so vertuously that he had reason to hope she contracted nothing since her Baptism which might retard her admission to Eternal Happiness yet because for ought he knew it might be otherwise he thanks * Ego itaque Deus cordis mei sepositis paulisper bonis ejus actibus pro quibus tibi gaudens
Church is Infallible I say it is contrary to our supposition not deny'd by him and to her own Profession and if he understands less than that the Query remains viz. How that which is less than Infallible can be that which cannot fail And yet how frivolous and unsatisfactory soever these last Positions are I cannot but applaud the Contrivance of them For could any thing be better calculated for a Vulgar Capacity How says a Long-Acre-Artisan am I as sure that the Protestant Religion is true as I am that I have cast up a Sum right Why then I am safe enough I have cast up many a Bill and have never been mistaken yet especially when I have taken care And it seems this is done without that supernatural Infallibility which the Papists talk of And therefore what need is there of it This is a very pleasing Delusion with People who care for no more Security in Religion than what will barely suffice for the keeping their Consciences in some tolerable Quiet and the more it pleases them the greater hazzard I shall run of their ill will by endeavouring to lay it open However because I am more intent on doing Benefits to them than desirous of receiving any from them I will state the matter aright and by that means shew them truly how the Case stands They suppose already with the Doctor that the finding out of true Religion is like the casting up of a Sum and that Seekers in Faith are of the same quality with Accomptants in Arithmetic And now let them suppose with me that twenty several Accomptants were employ'd about casting up of the same Sum and that the Life of each of these in particular depended on his right Computation that these Accomptants were of equal capacity and that in outward appearance they all used the same diligence and application and lastly when their respective Computations were finished that their Totals were wholly different one from the other We will now suppose that the honest Artisan whom I mention above is one of these Accomptants What do you think would he hold his Life secure whil'st he differed in his Computation from Nineteen others who had every way as sufficient means of being in the right as himself The Application is easie There are Twenty several Computers in Religion I might say many Twenties of equal Skill and * I say of equal Industry that I may suppose most advantageously for the Protestants For in truth it cannot be allowed that their Industry in Religion is equal to ours Witness our Laborious and Dangerous Missions Penitential Retirements the general obligation of Confession and doing Penance with much more which the Protestants have discarded Industry Salvation depends on their being in the right They all differ in their Computations The Church of England is one of these Computers and it is Nineteen to One that she is in the wrong and this is all her Security Let the L. A. Trades-men consider whether they would trust Five Pounds on the like And yet what is That or indeed their whole Worldly Interest compared to HEAVEN And now what is become of this Famous Answer which wanted a Reply Was it not truly Froth which looks like something but vanishes whil'st it is look'd on These Gentlemen deal with their Clients as Nurses do with little Children bid them hold fast when they put nothing into their hands and the poor Infants are so long deceived 'till their Curiosity or some other Appetite prevails with them to pry into their Treasure This was just such another * Dr. St. 's second Letter to Mr. G. p. 17. Purse as Dr. St. put into Mr. T.'s hand Mr. T. desired to know Whether the Protestants were absolutely certain that they held all the same Doctrin that was taught by Christ and his Apostles Dr. St. undertook to shew that they were and for proof says that there was an absolute Certainty for the New Testament from the concurrent Testimony of all Christian Churches as well Heretical as Orthodox which is all he either said at the Conference or published since in his Letters to Mr. G. to prove that Protestants held all the same Doctrin that was taught by Christ and his Apostles and consequently the Absolute Certainty which he delivered to Mr. T. was no more than what at the same time he bestow'd on the * Note that the Arians other Heretics take the Scripture for their Rule of Faith as well as Protestants Arians who deny the Godhead of our Savior and all other Heretics both Ancient and Modern Of the Arians you may say That they are Absolutely Certain they hold the same Doctrin that was taught by Christ and his Apostles because there is an Absolute Certainty for the New Testament and so of the rest Wherefore had Dr. St. when he made a Present of this Absolute Certainty to Mr. T. been so ingenuous as to confess that what he then gave him was no more than what Heretics possessed as well as he viz. a Certainty of the New Testament I suppose he would not have been so well pleased with it as he seem'd to be And therefore I would advise him to open his * Mr. T. hath the Paper he took at the Conference and may peruse it at leisure Purse once more and try what he can discern in it And if upon a second Computation he finds himself no richer than an Arian or any other Heretic I suppose he will return back to the Doctor for a better Legacy For if we are not as careful in laying up Spiritual Treasures as we are in gathering Temporal Ones we may be Rich for a Moment but we shall be Poor for a whole Eternity And here tho' Mr. T. hath great Reason to look about him from what hath been said viz. that for any thing he learnt at the forementioned Conference he is no surer that he is in the right than an Arian yet I must tell him That this is not the worst of his Case because whil'st Dr. St. gives him an Absolute Certainty for a part of Scripture from the Universal Testimony or Tradition of Christians with one Hand he takes it away with the Other by telling him that Tradition is no Infallible Conveyance of Matters of Faith. For tho' the Doctor endeavors to reconcile this Contradiction in his Second Letter to * Page 33. Where the Dr. raises a Mist by telling us what his Adversaries hold that he may keep his own Contradiction out of sight In his next let him speak plainly and tell us how he himself comes to hold That Tradition is a Ground of Absolute Ceâ—â—ainty for the Scripture and yet no Infallible Conveyance in Matters of Faith or let him deny that he holds these two Propositions or either of them Mr. G. yet I will leave it to Mr. T. to consider provided he promise me to take time for it how well he hath succeeded in his Undertaking THE CLOSE I Have now