two Protestants of one Religion They Tiffâ—â—iâ— so manie points that they daâ—â—â— one the other for 〈◊〉 belieuers Doe but examine whether the positions wherein they disagree amoÌ„gst themselueâ— be not of as maine importance as those wherein we differ from them all and you shall finde manie of theÌ„to be the verie same Naythere be not two Doctors or persons bere in England of one Religion no nor two laye men who giue them selues to expound scriptures and make their priuat spirit iudge of their beliefe and tenets And this not only because so manie variable phaÌ„sies grounded euerie one vpoÌ„ it selfe cannot possibly agree wherevpon you shall hardly see two meete and conferre of ReligioÌ„ but they will disagree if they talke long but also because all knowledge hath it's vnitie from some setled and certaine principles which being not to be found out of the Catholike church in matters of Religion there can be no vnitie or beliefe amongst Protestants For althought our ParlemeÌ„t hath comanded diuers articles to be â—â—ght in the churches of England yet doth not the Protestant Clergie acknowledge that the Parlement who are theâ—â—â—â—â—ke and taught by the 〈…〉 anie power to iudge or determine pointes of doctrine And in deede it were ridiculous for those who thinke that an vniuersall CoÌ„gregation of Bishopps and the bodie of the whole church may erre in beliefe should 〈◊〉 no attribute this vâ—errable power to their owne schollers Nether doe they that I know of but still mantaine constantly their cheefe grounde that all when are fallible and subiect to erre why Protestants ought not force anie man to belieue with them Where by the way you may note how hardly they deale with Catholikes in punishing them for professing a different faith from theirs seeing that if we belieue differently we must needes professe differeÌ„tly and they by their owne confession not hauing anie authoritie whereby they can or ought force anie maÌ„ to belieue as they doe t' is euident that they must per force contradicte their owne principles if they will persecute vs. Now therefore seeing that to be of one faith is to be of one setled opinion and setling cannot be without infalibilitie or necessitie the Protestants hauing no common principles which them selues esteeme infalible euerie maÌ„ expounding scripture their only rule of faith at his pleasure nor anie hauing power or authoritie to controle an others interpretation of anie passage what soeuer t' is impossible anie two ministers should be of one faith and Religion T' is true per chaÌ„ce they may be of one minde to day but eare night if ether of them light of a place of the scripture which after more consideration seemeth to haue an other sense then he thought before they may well be of different opinions And this in what pointe how materiall or essentiall soeuer These men therefore may be said to be some times of one minde or opinion but neuer of one faith and Religion faith being like mariage not to be taken vp for a yeare and a day but for all Eternitie The learned Catholikes be more learned then the learned Protestants And now to returne to the discourse we ayme at As the number of our learned men doth farr exceede the number of learned Prostants so likewise by all likelyhood doth their learning The English Diuinitie generally speaking is nothing but controuersies which are but the fourth or fift part of Catholike Diuinitie For besides controuersies we haue scholasticall Theologie which explicate's the mysteries of our faith and shewe's their conformitie to nature and naturall reason We haue morall Diuinitie which searche's into the practize of the Sacraments aÌ„d Precepts of good life We haue scripture lessons which diue into the deepe sense of the written word of God without farther application We haue misticall Theologie which examine's the extraordinarie waies of conuersation with God And lastly we haue Ecclesiasticall historie which shewe's the progresse increase and practize of Christian faith through all ages and places And of all these we haue I doe not saie bookes or volumes but whole libraries written and extant amongst vs. And for other eruditions as languages Poetrie Rhethoricke Logicke and Philosophie if the Protestants haue anie let them looke into their samples and they shall finde the most eminent and worthie men to haue beene and to be Catholikes so that as of all ReligioÌ„s the Christian so of all Christian's the Catholike is without questioÌ„ the most wise and the most learned profession And what I saye is not to be sought out in old manuscripts or learned papers your eyes and eares will tell it you in Catholike countries and euen in Paule's church yard where you may finde multitudes of volumes of all these sorts of learning written by Catholikes And if their shopps were well shaked vp I doubt not but for bookes of worth except some English pamphletts and a few controuersies one hundreth for one would be found to haue beene written by Catholikes What apparence theÌ„ can there be that the Protestants arguments should be so mightie and so cleerely better then what Catholikes can saie for them selues as to beare downe the right of Antiquitie and possessioÌ„ whereof the Catholikes are the sole Claymers Nephew I cannot denie but that your discourse is sound and grounded vpon common sense and vpon such euidence as when I was in Paris I heard was there to bee seene but my minde was then more fixed vpon the Tennis court then vpon such enquiries But why might not one replye that all this and more is necessarie for the iustifying of so euill a quarell If Catholikes be not honest and vertuous men the more learned they are the more daÌ„gerous and more able to mantaine a false position And t' is like the Protestants would replye in this manner for they tell vs that the Pope hath gotteÌ„ so mightie a power ouer our verie vnderstandings that for manie ages we haue bent all our witts how to mantaine his tiles aÌ„d decrees without anie care of truth or probabilitie wherefore the more wit and learning the more blindnesse of passion and interest As the learned Catholikes are more learned theÌ„ the learned ProtestaÌ„ts so they are more vertuous then they Vncle. I did not thinke that learning had deserued so ill at your hands as to censure it so seuerely No no coseÌ„ one maÌ„ or two or three may be the more daÌ„gerous for their learning but not whole multitudes For of it 's owne nature it is a great instrument of vertue being the CompanioÌ„ of truth so that there can be no greater signe of truth in anie ReligioÌ„ then to see it beare the touch of reason and that the professors of it be addicted to learning Besids I pray remember I speake to one who professeth no schollershippe and therefore doe not inquire what is or is not but what is most likely and apparent It must therefore be knowne that the Religion is false before it can
a perfect beleeuer that is a Catholike Which is as much as to aske §. 13 How scripture doth determine controuersies NPEHEW How should I know that vnlesse I were able to prooue my Religiō out of scripture or at least that I were able to giue a iudgement of all that is in scripture Which is beyond my capacitie Vncle. Then I will tell you cozē there are two meanes to make one a Catholike or a true and perfect belieuer The one by shewing euerie point of our faith in particular And this I dare not saie that our common and ordinarie manner of reading or hearing scripture is able to doe for we see those who write of controuersies doe alledge but few places nor those vnauoidable nether for some pointes of Catholike doctrine Nor is it to be expected Because man's nature being euer to add to what is alreadie learned And seeing likewise that long practise maketh men perfect in all arts There being no prohibitiō to perfect in some sort the instruction of the faithfull the oeconomie of the church and some such other things which the oppressed Primitiue church could not bring to perfectiō no maruelle I saie if these and the like things can not in particular be shewd in the scripture but shall therefore I know not who rise vp and exclame these things be superstitious hurtfull to the faithfull ād make a schisme to destroy them Who doth not see that this were plaine faction and Rebellion The other meanes or waye to make one a Catholike is by some common principle as if by reading of scripture wee finde nothing contrarie to the Catholike tenet or practize which our Aduersarie call's in question or also if wee finde it commēded there in generall or the authours and obseruers of it praised and extolled And in this waye I doubt not but a sensible and discreete reading of scripture at large may and will make anie true student of it a perfect beleeuing Catholike so he proceede with indifferēcie ād with a minde rather to know scripture then to looke for this or that point in it But now can you tell me cozē how it cometh to passe that sithence by an exact and particular examinatiō of the words of scripture these truths cānot be conuinced and beaten out of it how I saie is it possible that by a common and ordinarie reading of it these truths should appeare for that cānot be in the summe which is not in the particulars Nephew I can tell you that there is the same difficultie in the diuers sights of the walle which you made me experiēce but euen now but to yeild you a good reason ether of the one or the other that passeth my vnderstanding Vncle. Haue you not seene an inuētion of the Architects who can so dispose pillars in a gallerie that setting your eye in a certaine position you shall see the figure of a mā or a beast and walking a long the gallerie to goe to it it vanisheth awaie and you shall see nothing but pillars Or haue not seene a silinder or pillar of glasse before which if you laie certaine papers full of scrawolles and scrables and looking into the pillar you shall see the picture of a man or the like As these are dōne so it happeneth in our case both in the eye and in the vnderstanding For the art of these things is that certaine parts may so come together to the eye as that other parts ether by situation or by some other accident remaine hidden and that those parts which appeare being seene without the others will make this or that shape In our case likewise the quantitie of the seene parts exceeding the vnseene keepes the whole possession of the eye in the sight and of the vnderstanding in reading not letting the reste appeare And hence it is also that this common manner of vsing scripture is more secure then the exact ballancing of it For nether the varietie of translations nor the errours of copies nor the difficulties of languages nor the mutabilitie of words nor the multiplicitie of the occasions and intentions of the writers nor the abundance of the things written nor the different framinges of the bookes which be the causes of vncertaintie in a rigorous examinatiō haue anie such power as to breake the common and ordinarie sense or intention of the writer in generall as all bookes testifie vnto vs. And hence it is likewise that the holy fathers pressed scripture against the Heretickes of their times partly forced therevnto because the Heretickes generally will admitte of no proofe but out of the scripture but cheefly by reason their workes are diffuse and oratoricall befitting people vsed to orations and sermons as the Greekes and Romans were diuers of the fathers them selues bredd in that sort of learning Wherefore you shall haue them cite manie places some proper some Allegoricall some common all some times auoidable if they be taken seperatly but the whole discours more or lesse forcible according to the naturall parts or heauenly light more or lesse communicated to one then to an other yet still in the proportion of oratours who speake to the multitude and not to Socrates or Crysippus Wherefore the scripture in this kinde was a fitting weapon for them and the churche's continuing and reremaining in their doctrine sheweth that they vsed it dexterously and as it ougth to be vsed with relation and dependance of tradition Nephew Why then sir must all disputatiō of Religiō out of scripture be abolished For if there can bee no certaintie gathered out of it in a decisiue ād definitiue waie to what pourpose should a man ether alledge it or admitte it in disputes of Religion at least tell me I pray §. 14 What laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture VNCLE I am farr frō disliking disputation out of scripture so it be donne with those conditions which are fitting and which may bring the matter to some vpsh ott The first rule I would haue a Catholike obserue is not to dispute with a Protestāt vnlesse he promise to proue his position euidently and manifestly For since the Catholike knowes there may be certaine wittie probabilities and hard places of scripture brought against him it were madnesse in him to leaue his tenet custome optima legum interpres stāding for him and the practize of the church being on his side which is the greatest argument that can be brought to shew how and in what sēse the scriptures which that church hir self deliuereth are to be vnderstood it were I saie meere follie in a Catholike to leaue his tenent and accept of an other only for a probable and likely interpretation his owne being confirmed by that practize which maketh it more then probable And it is cleere the Protestant must needes pleade against possession for at the first breaking when the Protestants pretended to reforme the church she was surely in possession of those things which they pretended to take awaie and in
the firmenesse of Tradition Nephew You tould me the Tradition of Christian faith was a great while a planting in the harts of men by the force of miracles and that not only in their vnderstandings but also in their wills and affectiōs and so cultiuated vntill the maine of the people were constantly persuaded there was no saluation without it This was done at the same time in manie Countries not knowing one of an other nor being able to correspōde and frame anie draught of beliefe together but euerie one receiuing what was deliuered him from his preacher Vncle. Why now then cosen rerurne to your obiectiōs ād looke how they vrge ād what force they haue against this your declaration of tradition Nephew As for Adam's children I see that one man and one woman were the only witneses of such a thing as the partys to whom they tould it could hardly belieue it was so strange Nay them selues had so litle experience of those strange things which they tould that for anie thing we know they neuer as much as tasted of anie fruit in Paradise but of the forbidden tree And what care they had of anie Religion more thē to recōmēde God's seruice to their children and that only as lōg as they liued with them we know not so that it seeme's what they taught tooke no strong roote nor in manie For Noth the same answere may be giuen two of his sonnes parting shortly from him ether into farr countries or at least into such a distance as that they seldome came to see him Wherefore I perceiue there is a great difference betwixt the deliuerie of Christ's Gospell and of the law of God to those fathers of the old Testament Vncle. Your remarkes are good ones And in deede seeing we haue required that Tradition should haue the continuance of nature We must see that it be plāted accordingly which you haue well noted to haue beene performed in Christ's law but not in the tradition of the ould law the fathers and people of that time being much hindered by the great busines of the world's plantation Euerie mā seeking to plant countries build cities finde out commodities for the cōseruation of man's life Which were occupations farr different from the thoughts of heauen and things of the next world To this you may add that there was not then anie setled orders of Priests and men whose fūctiō should be to inculcate the necessitie of Religion into men's eares and harts which we knowe the Apostles had care to performe euerie where Againe there was no such correspondēce betwixt countrie and countrie in those times as hath euer beene amongst Christians specially by the mediation of a cheefe Bishop which Christ hath set amongst vs. And no doubt but these two last points be two maine and cheefe causes of the propagation and conseruation of Christiā faith You may yet add that euē the points of faith were not then able to worke vpon man's nature so powerfully as since Christ's comming according to our yesternight's discourse So that the roote and strēgth of Tradition being grounded vpon this that such a beliefe is fixed in peoples harts of seuerall natiōs the examples faile in three things First that the multitude was not capable of it it being so spirituall and abstract Secondly that it was not inculcated with that feruour of spirit assistance of the holy Ghost and abundance of continuall miracles as Christ's law was Thirdly that there was not a set forme and institution of Priests and Gouernors to ioyne all nations in communion for the conseruation of their beliefe Wherefore it neuer had the roote and nature of an vniuersall Traditiō And by these examples you may easily answere all other obiections of this nature And now I will leaue you least I should ouer wearie both you and my self Nephew You saie well vncle yet that I may be sure to haue fully cōceiued the maine drift of your instructions I pray let me see if I can make §. 15 The cōclusion of all our discourse IT was first your intention to giue me a rule how to gouerne my self in the choise of Religion Then you concluded that scripture could not be this rule Where vpon you laid me downe two waies how to resolue my self The first was that standing vpon the ground of prepossession there was no likelyhood or probabilitie that the Protestants arguments could be sufficient to ouer ballance the Catholikes because they must be conuincing cleerely or else were to be reiected And that the Protestants should bring anie cōuincing and demōstratiue arguments against the Catholikes there is no apparence Catholikes being more in number in qualitie greater schollers ād in life more vertuous And on the contrarie side Protestants hauing no principles or commāde which may make them agree amongst themselues And you shewd me that though this persuasiō did not euidently conuince the Catholike faith to be true yet did it manifestly proue that the Catholike was to be chosen by an vnlearned man Your second waye was by giuing a direct proofe that the Catholike doctrine is true which you did in threeseuerall manners First by shewing that it was no hard matter for the Catholike church to conserue the truth of hir doctrine if she were carefull which histories plainely shew she was Secondly shewing that nature doth force men to haue care of Religiō and therefore that it was impossible anie error should so creepe into the church as that it should be vniuersally receiued the verie nature of man and human affaires contradicting it's progresse Thirdly shewing how the church now relying vpon Tradition must of necessitie haue euer done so and that if it hath euer done so it could not let anie falsehood creepe in nor suffer anie error to be generally admitted This is all I remember sauing the soluing of some obiections and the discouering of some of my impertinent answeres which I hope you will excuse and forget If I haue missed I pray direct me Vncle. Yo haue taken good notice and I thinke my paines well bestowed only I would intreate you to make a litle reflection and comparison betwixt the knowledge which we haue by these meanes and that which scripture afforde's vs if we handle it in a litigious waye as in cōtrouersies we necessarily must And you shall finde that Tradition is grounded vpon that which all men agree in and vpon that which is common to all ages all nations all conditiōs But the knowledge which we haue by scripture is grounded vpon that which is different in euerie nation Hence spring's an other differēce to wit that the one is planted in nature and in what God created in man the other in what men them selues framed and that not by designe or art but by custome and chance Out of which againe ensueth that the one is capable of necessitie and consequently of a perfect demonstration as all naturall things are the other not The one is fixed vpon vniuersalls the other vagabonde in particulars As for example who is able to demonstrate that a word in controuersie hath no other sense then that which is necessarie for his pourpose Or where the constructiō may be made diuers waies that the true one is that which he pleadeth Who can demonstrate amōgst varieties of texts which was in the Autograph Or that the copies we haue are not defectiue And the like which ordinarily are necessarie if we will euindently conuince our intent out of the place we choose On the other side To shew that whole multitudes of seuerall nations cannot misse in what hath beene a thousand times ouer ād ouer inculcated vnto them That a world cannot conspire to cosen their posteritie That mankinde cannot accepte of a doctrine against an euident principle which they likewise hold and mātaine these being the maximes Tradition depende's on to shew I saie these things there needes no deepe learning being both knowne of them selues and also as necessarily conioint and dependant of man's nature as his other naturall actions be and therefore may beare as good a demonstratiō as they which if we haue not it is not through anie defect or incapacitie of the subiect but through the want of our looking into it and that ether because we doe not take the right waie or that we doe not bestow sufficient paines in the prosecution of it So that in fine although the Roman church had fallen which is impossible into those errors which the Protestants pretēde yet were it better for a man to content him self with the Good that remaines in it then to cast him self into an endlesse and fruitlesse maze of disputations with trouble to all the world ād that to no other effect then to make people vnsetled and by their vnnsetlednesse to neglect Religion But God's wisdome as you see hath prouided an Euidence for those that will take paines to seeke it 1. that the pointes in controuersie are of importance and necessarie to be knowne 2. that they cānot be so knowne by scripture as is requisite for decisions against contentious men and 3. that they may be certainely knowne by resting quiet in the bosome of the Catholike church which God of his mercie giue you and me grace to doe both liuing and dying
take much better I shall profit more and you will be in lesse danger to loosâ— your labour Vncle. Well cozen seing you are vnwilling of that discourse I will not trouble you therewith vpon condition that after twelftide you will not faille to come to me with preparation to receiue that doome which I shall laye vpon you for your christmasse trespasses In the interim I conceiue nothing more fitting then to informe you of the cheefest and most important affaire that you can haue vpon earth You know you haue beene borne and bred a catholike And you know it is their beliefe and tenent that all wee catholikes are obliged to venter life and fortunes for the profession of our faith Is it not then a great 〈◊〉 for a catholike gentleman to know full well how to gouerne his temporall estate till his grounds breede his catell sollicite his suits in law and menage all his terrestriall affaires and not knowe Why in such an occasion he ought to hazard yea and if neede be to loose and cast all awaye in the verie sight of his lamenting friends some vpbraiding and some condemning his action as foolish and indiscreete Nephew I pray vncle doe not laye so hard a censure vpoÌ„ me nor thinke me so ignorant of those things with out the knowledge where of I cannot be a catholike And you know wee cannot be admitted to the Sacraments nor can we be esteemed and reputed catholikes vnlesse we belieue that the reward we expect in heauen is farr beyond the pleasures of this world And truly considering what Christ Iesûs hath done and suffered for vs it were most base and vnworthie of a gratefull soule to feare to yeild vp life and goods when it is for his honnor and glorie Nor doe I thinke that more violent and efficacious reasons and motiues can be giuen to a noble haâ—t then these I coÌ„fesse if you would search into the metaphysicall grounds and principles of these truths I should perhaps light short of giuing a full accounte but my age and naturall vnstedfastnesse pleade my excuse as yet peraduenture when I grow elder I may proue more bookish and then turne the scripture and fathers and so become able to giue a more sollide accompte of our tenents but as yet this is not to be expected at my hands Vncle. Feare not cozen anie hard measure from me Who loue you so tenderly nether is that the point I entended to deliuer vnto you But sithence the greatter part of your kinred are of a different beliefe from you I desire to enable you to giue them satisfaction why you adhere so strongly to the Catholike partie as to hazard your owne and posteritie's wellfare for the maintenaÌ„ce of your faith and profession Nether am I ignoraÌ„t of your youthfull disposition and therefore Will I abstaine from misticall and sublime metaphysikes and only or at least cheefely make vse of what you know alreadie and what common sense and ordinarie naturall reason is able to performe wherefore to make the first breach I praye tell me cozeÌ„ what answere would you giue to a neere friend Whâ— should blame you for ruining your estate in the defence and maintenance of a position which is against the iudgment of your kinred friends countrie and state Nephew I would laye opeÌ„ vnto him how that our church and our doctrine hath beene euer preached and taught from Christ's time in all countries of the world what abuÌ„dance of holy martyres and learned men wee haue had how all christian nations haue beene conuerted by vs and such like motiues which are able to secure anie Wise man from doubting and must needes conuince the truth to be on our side our Aduersaries being but vpstarts of an hundreth yeares old Which if anie should coÌ„test and denye these things to be true I Would offer to produce men Who should proue and iustifie all I said against anie Doctor he should bring Vncle. Verie well bur if your friend reply that they willingly coÌ„fesse these things haue beene done by the common Ancestours of both Catholikes and ProtestaÌ„ts which were the true church but manie errours by litle and litle haue encroached and crept in amongst theÌ„ which wheÌ„ they were discouered those who now adhere to the RomaÌ„ church would not acknowledge but through obstinacie and desire of soueraigntie brake communion And farther that these diuisions are not truly diuisions in Religion but in opinion so that both sides remaine still parts of the true church though so much traÌ„sported by their first heates and passions as that causelesly they denye communion one to the other And saie's he if you looke in to the pointes of these diuisioÌ„s they are but such as be in the Roman church it selfe betwixt Thomists and Scotists Dominicans and Iesuits who proceede so farr as to charge one an other with Pelagianisme and Caluinisme which neuerthelesse doth not make different churches euen by the Catholikes owne confession And why then should the Protestants be of an other church then the Catholikes are of What would you answere to this Nephew I am not so ignoraÌ„t but I see well enough that all manner of differences ought not to make a breach in churches Wâ— diffâ—ces Reliâ— maâ— schâ— and yet that some may For I see men goe to law and haue quarells and both partyes not only tollerated in the in the common wealth but held good meÌ„bers of it And yet others I see punished for their quarells and contentions And if I doe not mistake the reason of this disparitie is that as long as these quarells are betwixt priuate meÌ„ so long they are suffered and borne withall but if once the common wealth take part with one side giuing iudgmeÌ„t in the cause disputed and thereby interesse it self in the busines if then the other side yeild not it is iustly accounted punishable and an euill member of the commonwealth And in deede thus to disagree vnder a head or rule which can bring the disagreers to agreement is rather to agree then disagree becaus they agree in a thing to wit in a mutually acknowledged head and coÌ„mon rule which is stroÌ„ger theÌ„ the causes of their disagreemeÌ„t and therefore their disageement is only for a time vntill that head and rule haue a conuenient and fitt opportunitie to reduce the disagreers to a full and totall agreement This dayly experience teacheth vs in our owne commonwealth which hauing once giuen a finall senteÌ„ce and determinate iudgment betwixt partye and partie the suite is ended and who should disobey would be punished for contempt So likewise in the church which is a spirituall common wealth such differences as be amongst those who referre them selues to hir iudgment and acknowledge hir decisiue authoritie are and may be tollerated to what termes soeuer the partyes growe amongst them selues But such differences as trench vpon hir authoritie and are betwixt those whereof the one partye will not acknowledge hir defining power nor stand to hir
condemne themselues Why Catholikes censure Protestants so hardly But we Catholikes censure Protestants first becaus they refuse that which we hold to be the true rule of faith to witt the churche's authoritie or tradition And sithence the rule of faith runne's through the whole course of our beliefe ād is the tennor and principle vpon which we hold euerie particular article t' is euident that who doth not accepte of this right and true rule of attaining to the knowledge of Christian faith cannot belieue aright nor haue true faith but by chance and therefore will misse it for the most part Secondly this rule of ours tell 's vs that Protestant's negatiue positions are against the generall good of the multitude of Christians that is against charitie and God's law hindering them from diuers important and necessarie meanes conducing to saluation Lastly it were meere folly to leaue possession vpon a slight argument For as in equalitie the better proofe should carrie the cause the equall deuide it so where there is possession on the one side there nothing but such conuiction as the nature of the cause doth beare ought to waine possession otherwise no human possession would be stable and constant Now Catholikes are as certaine of these two pointes as that they liue and breath to witt that they haue possession And that there 's no euident conuiction hitherto passed and shewed against them Wherefore I see not why a Protestant should be offended that the Catholikes censure all their Aduersaries in generall so seuerely sithence t' is manifest that if they should not doe so they would not only betraye their owne principles but also denye their breetheren that fraternall rebuke and admonition which the law of God and good neighbourhood require's at the hands of men so persuaded as these grounds force and oblige vs to be Nephew Surely then this is the reason why the church now and then chasticeth such subiects as rebell in beliefe against hir which the Protestants so exclame at Vncle. T' is so in deede and being no other church can haue this principle against vs if at anie time they persecute vs for our faith and beliefe they must needes doe it more out of passion and reuenge then out of anie rationall loue and knowing zeale to God and Religion And now cozen I hope you conceiue the extreme necessitie and maine importance of these pointes which we haue talked of being such as that the church of God cannot subsiste without them and essentiall to Christ's coming to witt to establish some to haue the charge and care of teaching and gouerning his church And that these teachers and Gouernors haue great credit and authoritie euen supernaturall and more then human And that their iudgment in matters of beliefe and Religion is to stand good nor may be subiected to the weake and wauering iudgmēt of the laietie that is of men ignorant in the principles of their science and discipline And lastly that being thus vnited they haue the true and right rule of knowing Christ's law and those things which are to be belieued and practized All which you see are of that nature that the verie essence of a Christian church and communitie cannot subsiste and continue without anie of them all And without such a church the Generalitie of mankinde cannot be maintained in charitie nor without charitie arriue to eternall Happinesse for which both charitie and all these other pointes are absolutly necessarie This hath beene the chaine of our discourse hitherto if you haue well vnderstood and conceiued my intention Which likewise you see I haue done by the light of common sense and reason according to my promis And sithence you would haue me to goe this waye and nether flye vp to sublime metaphysickes nor drowne your memorie with tedious allegations of authors we will still continue in the same path insisting in the principles of nature and shewing that diuers pointes of our faith and practise which the Protestants deney are euen by their conformitie to naturall reason it self ād by their owne proper force and efficacitie of causing and producing good and vertuous effects in a Christian cōmunitie and thereby contributing to saluation are I saie of no smale consequence and importance First therefore tell me whether you thinke there be anie other necessitie in respect of the pointes controuerted betwixt vs and the Protestants then this absolute and maine one which we haue alreadie talked of I meane whether there be not an other necessitie which though not altogether so great in it self and of it's owne nature yet such an one as is sufficient to make a pointe of importance and of such importance as that to reiecte it would be a lawfull and iust cause to refuse and denye communion to the refractarie and obstinate opposers thereof And lett vs put the question thus §. 8 Whether some pointes may not be of necessitie in a lower degree as in particular the vse of pictures or Images NEphew I told you before how I thought necessitie might be distinguished into an absolute necessitie and into a necessitie of a meanes for abtaining the thing we desire with greater ease and cōueniencie and you liked well of it But me thinke's it were a hard case to depriue anie man of that meanes and qualitie without which he cannot absolutly attaine to his end that others may come to their ends with greater ease and securitie And therefore I should thinke that no other necessitie but an absolute one were sufficient to deserue excommunication which I take to be a depriuing of a partie from that without which he cannot obtaine eternall Blisse Vncle. Why cozen lett vs suppose that in a communitie of one hundreth thousand nyntie thousand would neuer attaine to Blisse though absolutly they could vnlesse the waye were made easie doe you thinke it were fitt or tollerable in anie one or in a douzen to take awaie the meanes whereby the waye were facilitated to the rest Nay suppose ten thousand of the hundreth thousand would arriue to happinesse with great paines and labours were it not better in the Gouernor's eye who ought to be a common father to them all to lett the thenth part perish then all the other nine Nephew I confesse I see myne ouersight for truly the church is bound in such a case to proceede with rigor And the partie which will not condescende to helpe the frailtie of their breetheren doth by this very fact deserue to loose the protection of charitie which it willfully abandon's And in effect such a partie hath alreadie putt it selfe out of the secret communitie of God's church and the Gouernor is only to performe it in externall apparence Vncle. Add to this cozen that such a partie doth willfully stand out in this manner vpon pride and faction to iustifie their opinion And that they trench vpon the Gouermēt ordained by Iesus Christ them selues not being caled therevnto proudly setting themselues in the seate of iudgment to
Reuerencing their reliques and pictures 3. In hoping good of them by praying vnto them For we naturally thinke the greatest goods to be in those who deserue honour and can-doe good to others and therefore we neuer make anie great conceite of those things whence we can nether expect anie good nor wherevnto we thinke no honour due Nephew I cannot but interrupt your discourse with admiration to see how men who suerly had not cast awaie all thoughts of vertue sithence they had so manie followers and were in so great esteeme should vnder slight pretences so weaken the maine strings by which pore men were drawne to heauen and that for a litle vanitie and desire to appeare more learned then others How true is it vncle that man hath no foe but him self For not all the Tortures and Tyranies not all the inundations of waters and rauagings of fires that can be immagined could euer haue donne so much harme to man kinde as the verie taking awaie of the esteeme and conceite which we Catholikes haue of the excellencie and greatnesse of Saincts and of the happy estate which they enioye and which is the end we all ayme at Vncle. Oh! cozen if Alexander Cesar or anie of your great glorie hunters had considered in their life time what now peraduenture to their great greefe they cannot be ignorant of the difference that there is euen in this worldly and vaine glorie betwixt Peeter the fisherman or Paul the tentmaker who neuer aymed at this honour but thought it worse then the dust which they shaked from their shooes and them selues who poursued it so keenely with perpetuall dāger of their liues wasting their estates and Coūtries and ruining their neighbours if this I saie they had then knowne would they not haue changed their mindes and followed other courses And doe they not now mauger them selues and teare their verie soules in pieces to see their owne follie and their no lesse witlesse then gracelesse ambition And doe you not then thinke that the holy church vseth in this a most efficacious meanes to bring men to a vertuous life being she doth by this doctrine of honoring and praying to Saincts so strongly commende vnto vs the glorie and Blisse after which we ought to thirst and hope if we be true Christians Nephew For the two first points I confesse you haue reason but for the third I feare you will not come so well of For the easier it is to obtaine anie good the more wee esteeme it ours and consequently the more hart we haue to goe about it And what waie can be thought more easie then to make a cōceite of Christ's goodnesse and thinke that without anie paines or deserts on our side he will giue vs that great reward according to his owne pleasure more or lesse purely and only out of his mercie and goodnesse whitout anie respect or regarde to our workes or liues in this world Whereas we Catholikes make the gates of heauen so narrow and the paths therevnto so rougged that we seeme rather to deterre then exhorte men to vertuous liues Vncle. If ether we or they could thinke to come to Blisse whithout good life I should not wōder at your propositiō for in that case it were the best and only course to haue a great confidēce in him whose guift it is But if Christ hath nether left anie such waie nor you or anie vnderstanding mā belieue that faith with a wicked and carelesse life will bring a mā to saluatiō Cā you thinke that such an exaggeration of faith and confidence and such a disesteeming of good workes can be a meanes to persuade and incite men to sticke closse and persiste in vertuous actions which by all our confessions are requisite and necessarie to saluation Surely the Catholike church taketh the securer waie And the reason is because workes in the waie of merite that is done for God's sake and with hope of heauen cannot be without faith but how easie it is for a man to persuade him selfe that he hath much faith without working we finde by dayly experience Hence it is that the Catholike church doth moue and persuade vs to labour for our eternall happinesse by proposing vnto v the examples of men The force of examples in man's life as we are who haue made this great conquest in the most exact and solemne act of canonization of Saincts And also of others who by professing of extraordinarie labours make it appeare that the waie is not so hard but that manie dayly treade the paths of it I meane in Religious professions in which all sortes of austerities are dayly practized before our eyes which ought not to be derided and scorned as manie doe For what power the examples and conuersatiō of good men haue euerie wise man know's And for examples we see that all the dangers of the sea and warrs that diuing into the bottome of the Ocean and deluing to the center of the earth hanging on ropes and scaffolds and what soeuer man hath inuented in this kinde doe not deterre men where there is ether profit or Admiration Let but one desperate beginner shew the waie and he will not want multitudes of followers so ether vanitie or gaine second his aduentures And if the force of Example be so great the losse of wanting it must needes be equiualent and consequently the wrong done to Christians by taking it awaie must be no lesse And therefore the question and cōtrouersie whether it should be maintened in the church or no is of no smale importance Nephew I perceiue well that you still continue according to your promis to shew the necessitie and importance of controuerted pointes of Religion by shewing their force and efficacitie of producing profitable and aduantageous effects for mankind's attaining and coming to eternall Blisse and I see that this is a verie connaturall and efficacious proofe But I feare all pointes of controuersies cannot be proued that waie For I pray how should anie man shew me §. 10 That the Sacraments of order and Matrimonie the Generalitie of Ceremonies or the opinion of miracles are necessarie VNcle You remember I proposed vnto you but now a diuision of some things which concerned the breeding others the conseruation of vertue and deuotion For although such things as augment vertue doe likewise of necessitie conserue it yet there may be some things which properly are to conserue it and not to augment it or at least of two things which doe both the one may conserue it because it breed's it the other may augment it because it cōserue's it Now therefore if we finde anie thing whose principall effect is only to hinder such contrarieties as would distroye pietie and deuotion such properly speaking doe not augment it of them selues but yet they may be truly said to conserue it Farther if you considere you shall finde that this hindering of cōtrarieties and opposites to vertue is performed two waies First by remouing all such
things as put men in feare of yeilding to the contrarie which is a kinde of strengthening of man's weaknesse against these cōtrarieties Secondly by diminishing and aswaging the force and violence of these contrarieties ether in them selues or in their action In the first manner doe contribute all kinde of Ceremonies and particularly those which are vsed in the instalements and Beginnings of offices and charges as the Sacraments of Order and Matrimonie And likewise the opinion of miracles For Ceremonies their nature in generall is to put in men's heads the conceite of a high and sublime thing whereby we proceede with greater caution and warinesse in the busines which we haue in hand And for miracles the beliefe and opinion of them once well grounded as it ought to be make's the people extremely apprehensiue of the presence of Almightie God and of his immediate gouerment of human affaires So that as to be ouer credulous of miracles is the signe of a light and imprudent man for according to reason the stranger the thing is the greater ought to be the proofe which should make vs belieue it so likewise not to thinke that some miracles in common haue beene and are now done in the Catholike church were to contradict the vniuersall and constant opinion of all good Christians and deserue's to be suspected of not belieuing the particular prouidence of Allmightie God which is the maine string where vpon all Christianitie and supernaturall Religion hāgeth and which all Maisters of pietie and deuotion haue euer souht to grounde strōgly in the harts and soules of men Nephew But I pray vncle how will this be true in Matrimonie for that concerne's me he vse whereof consist's in such a materiall and sensuall pleasure I haue often reflected why the Catholike church which make's so great esteeme of virginitie should place mariage amōgst the Sacraments and make such great Ceremonies in the administration of it Vncle. You speake like a youngster And I would to God your conceite and thought were not so deepely rooted in the harts of manie young men like your selfe The Apostle tell 's you that the right and lawfull vse of the bed is honorable Why t' is fitt that Matrimonie should be a Sacramēt Heb 13. 1. Tim. 2. and that woemen are to be saued by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is bringing forth of Children God Almightie hath bestowed this procreation of children vpon his seruants as a cheefe temporall Blessing so we see in Abraham and in the good woman that entertained Elizeus and suerly it was the first Blessing that God bestowed vpon his creatures If you considere for what end God sanctifie's anie action you shall finde t' is only for man's vse And then reflect vpon the goods which follow the lawfull vse of this materiall action betwixt man and wife and you will not wonder that God hath placed a Sacrament in matrimonie I doe not doubt but the light of reason tell 's you that in respect of good oeconomie a man's hauing but one wife and his perpetuall cohabitation with hir is the best manner of secular liuing that can be both for temporalities sake and for hauing a quiet and contented life Which supposed Mariage must needes be a matter of great consideration For ether a man must liue without a woman which kinde of life is but for few or with this womā after he hath once taken hir And therefore t' is of great importance that this manner of life of it's owne nature be conuenient and gratfull Besides you know a man take's a great deale of naturall content in his wife generally speaking which some times drawe's him to strang inconueniences vnlesse his passions and affections be well moderated and setled for you know hee take's hir for his best friend his best seruant and his dearest partner in all his busineses supposing she be wise and prudent and consequently euer complying in reason with hir husband's humour Whereby you see that the making of a Marriage and the vsage of it when t' is made is the pinne whereon doth hang the cheefe content and sweetnesse of a maried man's life the good of his posteritie the maine successe and prosperitie of his temporall estate or fortunes And aboue all the breeding of his children and the instilling of pietie and vertue into their tender harts which may grow with their age and carie them to felicitie Iudge now cosen whether it was not conueniēt and fitting that in the law of grace this Action should be eleuated and rancked in the highest degree and order of those actions which God hath sanctified for the vse of man And ought we not to commende and preferre the wisdomes of our forefathers before all other nations for making so great esteeme of it and celebrating it with such great ceremonies Nephew Truly I am to thanke you for this good lesson because it may be of speciall vse for my selfe And I could wish it were giuen to all men before they marrie For my selfe I thanke God I am so well sped that I neede not wish to haue learned it sooner But I pray vncle lett me know the other part of your diuision that is which be those things you said were necessarie to breake the force of cōtrarieties and temptations against vertue and which might comfort and strengthē men in this distresse I doe imagine that you ayme at some things which you will hardly proue As for Example doe you thinke that for this end §. 11 Praying for the dead Extreme vnction and Confession are necessarie VNCLE Setting a side the temptations of sensuall pleasure which we suppose to be moderated by mariage there remaine's feare and grieefe Feare is cheefely of death and iudgment following Griefe is of losse which to rationall men is aboue all other things of friends of whom the cheefest is Allmightie God who is lost by sinne the next is of temporall friends who are principally lost by their death This last is taken awaie by the beliefe of their suruiuing and that once we shall enioye them againe Whence proceede's the desire of continuing amitie and communication with them HoW prayers for the dead doe appease the griefe of the liuing which being only to be had by the mediation of Almightie God it cannot be performed but by praying for them if we thinke they stand in neede And so a great part of this griefe is taken awaie amongst Catholikes by the diuersion of care to gett prayeres said for them and an other part turned to Almightie God by hoping good for them at his hands Whereas others giue their friends ouer in death with a farewell frost or else are plunged in vncurable sorrow for an vncurable losse for the beliefe of enioying them againe when there is no communication in the interim is but cold comfort and sinke's not deepely as things farre from vs doe generally litle moue vs. The feare of death is much moderated by the Sacrament of Extreme vnction
reason of their immunities That the Clergie's strength is able to baÌ„die now and then against the state Nay that a Religions order especially such an one as hath great power ouer it's subiects is able and not vnpractized to bandie and make good it's part against both church and state with no smale damage and daÌ„ger to theÌ„ both if it they were not preuented These things must needes auerie anie state much more a schismaticall one from out Religion sitheÌ„ce we suppose them to be of necessitie Vncle. As for the Clergie's chastitie euerie one knowes we confesse t' is not a matter of necessitie by the law of Christ HoW the Clergie's chastitie and single life is conuenient Yet that t' is most fitt and conuenient I thinke no wise man can doubt For of all pleasures the carnall doth most affect sensible nature and produceth the greatest extremities of passion in man and consequently is the greatest binder of man to earthly things and the greatest hinderer froÌ„ heauenly and spirituall thoughts that nature hath placed in maÌ„ It were needlesse to tell you how vnfitt this sensuall imployment is for those men whose maine life and action ought to be in preaching and teaching celestiall and supernaturall doctrine and whose ayme euen by their function and profession is to draw people from this clodd of earth and eleuate their mindes to God and spirituall affections From wedlocke followe's the loue of wife and children 1. Cor. 7 and the necessarie cares of household which the Apostle cale's the afflictions or tribulations of the fleth And from them the Euill Gouerment of the church which ether must be hereditary or neglected the decessour euer streeuing to leaue nothing to his successour which him self can make vse of for the better prouiding of his children And lastly the verie conceite of chastitie and the sollitude or lonenesse of an vnmarried man breedeth an apprehension of the person in whom they are whereby the people are much better gouerned by such an one Nor is Celebate the cause of such disorders as truly are found in some places too frequent but the multiplication of Priests Which in deede brings this sacred function into contempt amongst the laietie Why there should be but few Priests in the church whose tutors and teachers Priests are by Christ's institution and maketh them esteemed as seruants And this also make's the Priests them selues to haue a lesse conceite of their owne dignitie and dutie whereby they become carelesse of their honour and cariage And to saie the truth considering the difficultie of chastitie in the frailtie of man's nature t' is not likely that whole multitudes of men liuing in libertie and perpetuall occasions of falling should obserue so hard a rule as is expressed by Qui potest capere capiat Mat. 19 Wherefore not the Ecclesiasticall commaÌ„de of chastitie which you see is good and necessarie for the Gouerment of the church but the multiplicatioÌ„ of Priests especially of yong and vnworthie ones ought to be taken awaie and so the scandal would cease Nephew You saie well but I haue heard that multitudes of Priests are requisite for the magnificence of the church for the conuenient hearing of Masse especially on Holy days and for the better Administration of the Sacraments and helping of both liuing and dead by the inestimable sacrifice of the Altar which causeth manie to take priesthood meerely out of deuotion Vncle. I haue heard manie saie so too but they did not considere that the necessitie of Gouerment and instructioÌ„ is the cheefe necessitie of the church and that the Clergie is made and instituted for this Gouerment hauing the administration of the SacrameÌ„ts pourposly reserued vnto them to procure them veneration and authoritie for the better performance thereof and therefore not anie one ought to be made Priest but for this end to witt for the necessitie of instruction and GouermeÌ„t And this Bishops ought to take care of nor to bestow Priesthood but where the man's creation is necessarie for his flocke and then Priests would liue better and be more honored This was the practize of the primitiue church vntill the Ambition of Deacons who had the temporalities of the church in their hands made them desire honour and so were made Priests And the like ambition I belieue was the inuentor of those faire reasons which you alledge for well may it be magnificence in a Prince to haue manie seruants but to haue manie cheefe heads and Gouernors that must needes lessen their esteeme And for hearing of Masses if the people be well ordered and gouerned few Priests will suffice nor is the inconuenience so great as the multiplicitie of Priests And the like may be said for the administration of the Sacraments and for the helping of both liuing and dead by the holy sacrifice of the Altar As for those who desire to be Priests out of deuotion I thinke their deuotioÌ„ would be more conformable to the pietie of our forefathers if they did rather â—hunne then desire Priesthood especially where there are so manie allreadie And as in my opinion there cannot be an outward worke of greater pietie and charitie then to prouide the people of fitt instructors and Gouernors nor almes better imployed then to procure this effect so contrarie wise I thinke there cannot be an acte of greater sacriledge and impietie then to order and imploye vnworthie subiects in this kinde and who soeuer out of faction friendship or carelessenesse should doe it are worse then Adulteres Murtherers or those whose sinnes crye to heauen for vengeance But this I speake only of my owne opinion Nephew Truly vncle I thinke you are in the right though peradueÌ„ture there be not manie of your minde For I see well enough that as to multiplie vnworthie judges and Gouernors in a common wealth were to ruine it so likewise to multiplie vnworthie Priests is to hazard the spirituall good of Christianitie and to make an vnworthie parish Priest is in a manner to damne the parish Vncle. For your second obiection of the Clergie's riches That the Clergie's riches are no preiudice to the teÌ„porall state though I am none of those that thinke the Clergie or anie other spirituall companie whom they affect cannot be too rich yet I see no such inconuenience in their riches but t' is easily remedied For in all Catholike countries there be meanes found out to diminish their riches and make them contribute to the necessities of the state and common wealth as fully as others in proportion though in an honorable waie as to let them haue their owne Collectors of the monies required at their hands Besides the Clergie not making anie vowe or profession of renouncing ether riches or honor and bearing the greatest charge and office in the common wealth t' is both fitting and necessarie that they haue so much wealth as is requisite for the due performance of their function as first to be out of sollicitude for
it but by the scripture which we doe not hold to be sufficient to determrne controuersies without tradition So that I haue no more to saye to you but wish you may begine this new yeare with a good night's rest which God send vs both Whether scripture alone is fit and able to decide controuersies in Religion THis Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. The Preface or introduction 2. That tradition for scripture is not of as great force as for pointes of Doctrine 3. That tradition for scripture is not more vniuersall then tradition for doctrine 4. That it is impossible the text of scripture should haue remained incorrupted 5. What vncertaintie the errors of writers and copists hath bredd in scriptures 6. What vncertaintie the multiplicitie of translations hath bredd in scripture 7. That the verie repeating and reciting of an others words breedeth a varietie and vncertaintie 8. The vncertaintie of EquiuocatioÌ„ which of necessitie is incident in all writings 9. That there riseth an vncertaintie out of this that the scripture was written in languages now ceased 10. The vncertaintie which followeth the particular languages of Hebrew and Greeke wherein the scripture was vritten 11. That the nature of the bookes of scripture is not fitting for deciding of controuersies 12. Two manners of iudging of Religion out of scripture 13. How scripture doth determine controuersies 14. what laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture 15. Of an other manner of disputing out of scripture §. 1 The Introduction VNCLE How now cozen what make's you so early this morning could you not sleepe this last night Nephew Yes indifferent well I thanke God but t' is not verie early Howsoeuer if I be trublesome I will expect your better leasure for I am come only to tell you a scrupule that I had yesternight which hath tormeÌ„ted me euer since And it is that we Catholikes who beare so great reuerence and veneration to the holy scripture receiue more of it then others write infinite volumes of commentaries vpon it as Paul's church yard can witnesse and are so exact to improue our selues I meane our learned men in the knowledge of it should neuerthelesse when wee come to ioyne in the maine point that is to the decision of controuersies in Religion seeme to fly of and recurre to other iudges though we acknowledge it to be Christ owne word and law And now I haue tould you my difficultie I will leaue you to your better imployments knowing how much you esteeme and how precious you accompt your mornings and therefore I will make bould to call for your answere an other time Vncle. Nay stay cozen God forbid I should thinke I could better imploy my time then in giuing you satisfaction in question of such importance or that you should be importune vnto me by desiring the knowledge of a thing so necessarie and so be seeming you I were to blame if I would not leaue euen my prayers to assist you in this point and perhaps an other time you will not be so earnest on it Although I must coÌ„fesse I am some what vnwilling to diue into this questioÌ„ for I see by experieÌ„ce that the one part seeketh by all meanes to destroy the authoritie of God's church and the other seemeth to lessen the power of scripture for the deciding of controuersies so that indifferent men and as yet vnsetled be left as it were without all meanes of coming to the truth How soeuer necessitie excuseth vs for were our Aduersaries able to performe what they promise that is to resolue pointes of controuersies by scripture we were worse theÌ„ beasts if we should refuse to be iudged thereby But if to stand to scripture only as they doe be but a plausible way to Atheisme and so the question will only be whether we must rely vpon a church or be Athiests for we thinke by scripture alone lefâ—t without the guard of the church nothing or at least not enough for the saluation of mankinde can be sufficiently prouued then euerie man wil see that we are forced by reasoÌ„ and Religion to make euident and knowne as farr as we caÌ„ the necessitie of relying vpon a church and to vse all our power to persuade men therevnto And if you remember we said yesternight that Christian Religion or the law of Iesus Christ cannot be learned by witt and studie but by authoritie and by receiuing it from Iesus Christ And that wee said likewise that he is no true Christian nor truly of the communitie of Christians what so euer be his materiall beliefe who doth not accept of that rule and meanes which Iesus Christ hath left and ordained for the receipt of his law and the like of him who should follow anie other rule which must needes be ether scripture or tradition or both it will therefore euiâ—â—ntly follow that ether we must be no Christians or accept and acknowledge tradition to be this rule if wee can shew that the scripture is not fitt nor hath the conditions requisite for the deciding of controuersies nor was made or left to the church for this end Nephew The greater is the necessitie of this question the more gladd am I that I haue moued it though me thinke's I my self might well see it is not fitt to make the scripture iudge of coÌ„trouersies because we finde by experience that after so manie disputations and so manie bookes written on ether side there is nothing resolued nor are we the nearer an end and therefore t' is euident that scripture alone will neuer decide and determine our quarells and disputes Vncle. Well cozen since you will haue it so our first question shall bee §. 2 Whether tradition for scripture be of as great force as it is for pointes of doctrine ANd first I pray you tell mee doe you thinke that the Apostles when they weÌ„t about the world to preach Christ Iesus carried with theÌ„ all the bookes of the ould and new Testament ether readie translated into the languages of the people whom they preached vnto or else caused them to be translated by the first Christians Nephew I neuer thought of this question before but I see well enough that they could not carie all with them for some parts certainely were not made before they went to to preach nay I a'm not assured whether anie part of the new testament was made before their dispersion from Hierusalem so that well may they haue caried the ould Testament with theÌ„ if they thought it sitting but for the new they could not if I be not mistakeÌ„ Vncle. It is verie true I will tell you therefore cozen how the authoritie of the scripture that is Now the neW Testament Was pro aga ted of the new Testament came into the church An Apostle or Disciple writing a booke or Epistle coÌ„municated it to that church or Countrie wherein he preached or to which he writte it that church coÌ„municated it to their neighbours as the worke
of such an Apostle so by litle and litle it grew froÌ„ one countrie to an other vntill it was spredd ouer the whole Christian world So that some countries had not the new Testament complete that is all the bookes of it for a long time Wherefore no wonder that some haue doubted of seuerall parts thereof being not able to auerre as not assured by reason of some accident that such bookes were truly the workes of such an Apostle or Disciple which not withstaÌ„ding Why the canon of scripture is cheefely to be had from Rome better intelligeÌ„ce being gotten might be afterwards receiued for scripture And here you may note by the way that the Roman church is that church to which in reason wee ought to giue most credit touching the canon of the scripture For Rome being at that time â—that is at least for the first 300 yeares to the Christian world or rather to all the Christians dispersed in diuers parts of the world as London is to England And that wee see the collection of things estimable dispersed in seuerall Prouinces of our Kingdome is sooner and better made in London then in anie other part of our Countrie it must needes follow that the collection of the Holy scripture or new Testament was more exactly faisable at Rome then at anie other place But this by the way For my ayme is to make you iudge whether anie one substantiall point The state of the questioÌ„ which the Apostles whith common conseÌ„t preached through the whole world compared to anie one booke of the new Testament which soeuer you thinke first or best receiued whether I say of these two haue descended vnto vs with more certaintie the one to be the Apostles doctrine the other to be such an Apostle's booke Nephew I should distinguish your question for ether it may be compared to that particular Prouince or church where the Apostle him selfe deliuered it both in word and writing or to the whole church And I confesse that in respect of the whole church that point of doctrine which is euerie where preached must needes haue more certaintie but where both are equaly deliuered by the same Apostle to the same church I should thinke the worke should haue more authoritie theÌ„ the word For t' is an easie matter to let slipp a word some times Whereas writing requireth a more setled consideration Vncle. If the question be but of a particular church or Prouince I doubt it will not be sufficient to giue vs a firme authoritie for ether one or the other vnlesse we add more circumstances then we haue declared And the reason is because one Prouince maye haue had Religion so ruinated in it by the incursion of infidells that recouering theÌ„ selues after a long time they may as well mistake one booke for an other as one doctrine for an other and so this point is not much to our pourpose Although euen in this case the doctrine taught by word of mouth hath these aduantages That it is deliuered to manie the booke to few or in some one place The doctrine heard and vnderstood by manie the booke only to such as can reade nor to all them nether but to such as are carefull The booke belonge's not much to the practize of the multitude the doctrine gouernes their whole liues The booke brought often times by some one maÌ„ as some messeÌ„ger if it be an Epistl or other wise sent from some other place or froÌ„ some one person as from Titus of Timotheus to whom it was first written and vpon whose authoritie only the whole veritie must originally rely But to returne to our case Doe you not see that the whole church trusteth some one particular man at the first vpon whom she buildeth hir beliefe tht this is such an Apostles worke that is scripture But for anie materiall point of doctrine she relyeth vpoÌ„ the vniuersall knowledge of theÌ„ who heard it preached in diuers parts of the world So that as I doe not intende to say the one is certaine the other not for a particular churche's authoritie may be certaine in some circonstances yet I must needes say that betwixt these two certainties there is such a differeÌ„ce that if the one were to bring in verdict vpon the other it would be much more forcible and euident to conclude that this booke is scripture because it is according and conformable to the doctrine taught and preached then that this doctrine is the Apostle's because it is conformable to this booke For if it be true that the whole church once relyed vpon some one particular church for this veritie it can neuer come to passe that the certaintie of this booke proue greater then was the authoritie of that particular church at that time And consequently the same comparison which is to be made betwixt the authoritie of this particular church and of the vniuersall church the same I say is to be made betwixt the certaintie of this booke 's being scripture and of this point of doctrine's being catholike and Apostolike And for the inconuenience you were jealous of it falleth out quitt contrarie For whether we considere the inspiration and assistance of the holy ghost or the industrie aed carefullnesse of man you shall euer finde that the end is more principally aymed at then the meanes to compasse the end and likewise amongst diuers meanes the most immediate to the end is still most aymed at wherefore in our case the end both of writing and speaking being the deliuerie of this doctrine for the good of the people no doubt I say but that both the AssistaÌ„ce of the holy ghost and the care of man tendeth more principally to the deliuerie of this doctrine then to other things that came in by chance in which only there might be a slipp as you immagine Wherefore sithence tradition containeth not all the words the Apostles spoke but meerely what belong's to ChristiaÌ„ doctrine which was principally deliuered and the cheefe errand of the Apostles and that in the scriptute manie things are written vpon occasion and as it were by the bye no doubt but in both these respects to wit of the assistance of the holy ghost and of the care of man the certaintie will be greater of the doctrine deliuered by word of mouth theÌ„ of the holy writt Besides the slipps you speake of are when things are only once deliuered or spoken without great premeditation whereas this doctrine was a thing perpetually beaten on so as there can be no feare of such slipping HoW the old Testament came to Christians hands For the ould TestameÌ„t as I confesse t' is possible that the Apostles might haue deliuered it in all Countries where they preached so likewise I thinke t' is euident that they neuer did it being that the church hath no such memorie And that the Canon hath beene doubted of by some and the Iewish Canon alleadged whereof there had beene no vse nor neede if the
or authoritie vpon earth to take vp these quarells and decide these controuersies shall matters of such maine importance and great consequēce euer remaine a perpetuall subiect of endlesse dissention and diuision shall the Catholike church and Christian Religion bee torne and rente in peeces euē in what is most substātiall and essentiall in hir for still I saie the like may be said of what pointe soeuer at the will and pleasure of some priuate mē's phansies and no power ordained to preuent such essentiall and eternall disorders If this be not to ruine ād ouerthrow all gouerment and Religion and to introduce confusion both common sense and reasō faileth Put this libertie of beleeuing only what he thinkes he find's in the scripture but in to one man's hands to wit the first beginner and brocher of a new dogme and let him be a man to whom the sharpenesse of wit and some times a seeming good life hath giuen authoritie though truly his spirit is gouerned ether by a secret pride or by some other interest or indignation and see if such an one be not able to draw a great multitude euen the third part of the starrs after him especially if he preach libertie ether of minde or bodie and haue with all the hand of some Prince full of rewards and punishments to second his intētions Calculate what the industrie of such a formed party hartily cleauing together is not able to invente Some haue beene able to cast mistes euen vpon mathematikes and vpō the most certaine principles of nature and laying then those qualities of scripture which I haue tould you of to the disposition of those factious persons what euidence thinke you can be expected from the conflicts of such mē disputing vpon such groundes Nephew Truble yourself no farther in this pointe for I cannot but confesse that the euidence you haue brought is greater then I could expect or desire Wherefore I pray hold me no longer in suspence but tell mee §. 12 Which be the wayes or manners of iudging pointes of Religiō out of the scripture VNcle Why cozen tell me first doe you see the walle before you some fouer or fiue yards frō you and how much of if doe you see Nephew I see it perfectly well God be thanked and it is white there is fower pictures hangs on it and half a douzen chaires stand against it To tell you precisely how much of it I see together that I perhapps cannot but in a short turning of myne eye I can see it all or verie neare if I will Vncle. I pray goe within a spanne of it and then tell mee what difference you finde in the sight of the walle Nephew Marry I finde now that I see much lesse of it but that which I doe see and which lyeth directly before me I see farr better and can distinguish euerie litle part in it and of what collour it is Vncle. Did you not tell mee cozen the walle was white how cometh it to passe that you tell me now you see what collour euerie part of it is Nephew It seemed all white before whilest I was a good wale from it but when I came neere it I could perceiue some litle parts dunne others browne and the like but sure the white parts were much more Vncle. Why then cozen you may thinke that you did not perfectly see the collour of the walle before for the collour of the walle must needes be the collour of the parts and you saie the collour of the parts is not one but manie and therefore you only saw the collour of those parts which did exceede the rest And if you tooke anie of those litle parts and put it in a multiplying glasse you would see as great difference of parts and peraduenture of collours to in it as you saw in the walle when you were within a spanne of it so that if one should aske you what you haue seene you would hardly quit your self handsomly of the question Notwithstanding you perceiue well enough that the first sight of the walle serueth you for all the vses of your life as not to runne against it and generally to know how to comporte your self or vse anie thing else which were requisite to be set towards the walle or in anie manner to be donne about it The second sight serueth you only to know the nature of the walle and to distinguish what is mixed in it or of what ingredients it is composed or the like So that you see the easier and more common knowledge of anie thing serueth for the direction of our liues the more particular and exact knowledge is only required ether for the content of the knower or for some speciall practize vpon the thing knowne Nephew I belieue I vnderstand alreadie which waie you intende to carrie me for you will tell me that there are two manners of vnderstāding scripture the one a Kinde of large manner taking it in grosse and a great deale together as we take a discourse or playe which pleasingly passeth away without anie great demurr or particular weighing of euerie word The other more curious and exact looknig into euerie litle proprietie which may breede anie diuersitie And I suppose you would tell me that this second belōgeth only to schollers but that the former guideth our life and gouerneth our actions And t' is true I see the people is ordinarily caried a waye by their preachers Antient common wealths by their Oratours and in what matter soeuer an eloquent and elaborate discours which passeth sweetly in this sort gaine 's presently the suffrages of the Auditorie Wherefore I must needes confesse that what good effect soeuer is the end for which the scripture was ordained if it be anie thing belonging to man's life and conuersation it must be compassed by this grosse cōmon and ordinarie course of reading and vnderstanding it Where as if a man should ouer examine euerie word he would not finde grounde to fixe him self with aduantage and vtilitie Is not this your meaning Vncle. You are verie right And surely if we looke into what is in the scripture necessarie for our good life and vertuous conuersation we shall finde plainely that t' is to be had this waie As the direction of our liues and actions to God acknowledging all things from him Comfort in aduersitie moderation in prosperitie compassion of the afflicted helping of the needie Rewards of vertue punishments of vice examples of both and in a word the motiues of the loue of God and our neighbour and of the cōtempt of the world Who therefore is so blinde as not to see that these things are to be found in the scripture by a sensible common and discreet reading of it though perhapps by a rigorous ād exact ballancing of euerie particular word and syllable anie of these things would vanish awaie we know not how but to come yet closser to our pourpose doe you thinke this manner of reading scripture would make a man
possession of that sense of the scripture which they pretēded to be false and wrōg And surely no man of common sense who is in possessiō and hath the law in his owne hands will yeild it vp without euidence on the cōtrarie part The second rule I desire a Catholike should obserue is not to thinke his cause lost because him self cannot answere the argumēts proposed against him nor to venter his cause and his possession vpon his owne wit For the disputation being in a matter wherein according to the Protestants groundes there is no certaintie it followeth that who hath the better wit or is more practized in this matter may bring an argumēt a good scholler cannot solue at the first sight though afterwards ether he or some other may And what a follie were it for a man to venture his soule and conscience vpon a subtilitie or present flash of wit whereof peraduenture within an hower hee him selfe will see the falsitie and condemne his owne errour Wherefore a Catholike is not to venter the cause vpon his owne head nor to confesse it weake because he cannot defende it for both may he improue him selfe and some others perhapps may goe farr beyōd him The third rule is that the Catholike should neuer vndertake to conuince his Aduersarie out of scripture but content him self that these words may well beare this sense which is in fauour of the Catholike church And this is both more easie to performe and sufficient for his pourpose For the Catholike hath an assured grounde of his faith besides scripture and which relyeth not vpon it nay he holdeth that his Religion cannot be wholy conuinced out of scripture to what end therefore vnlesse he would show his wit should he vndertake to proue his tenents by scripture For this were to strenghen his opponent in his owne grounde and principle to wit that all is to be proued out of scripture Nephew You would binde Protestants to verie vnequall conditions if you will oblige them to conuince and the Catholike not nay that it shal be sufficient for the Catholike to shew this may be the meaning of this or that place of scripture whereas the Protestant shal be forced to proue cleerely and euidently that this is the verie sense of the text Vncle. Not I cozen but the Protestants them selues oblige thē selues to this hard measure for if a man should strongly mātaine that a Beetle were the best instrument to cut withall and you saie no were no he bound to cut with a Beetle and it were no sense to saie that you should be forced to doe it since you mantaine it to be impossible So they who hold that the scripture is the true iudge of controuersies and fit and able to decide all quarells and dissensions about the Christian faith and law binde them selues by holding this to conuince their positions by scripture which cānot be exacted at his hands Who saith scripture was not made for this end nor is sufficient for it And looke vpon Luther and the Heretikes of his timē nay vpon the Puritants of our days and see if they doe not all mātaine that they can conuince their tenēts by scripture and saie that our forefathers were wholy ignorant of scripture and that wee now liuing knowe nothing of it But to goe on with our rules of disputing out of scripture The fourth condition shall bee that the Catholike doe not admitte anie negatiue proofes as to saie this is an errour because you can shew no scripture for it For this is no proofe vnlesse they will suppose that nothing is true but scripture or that there is nothing to bee donne but what is ordained by scripture which were absurd for nether Catholike nor I thinke anie good Protestant will admitte of that supposition being it were not only to take away the power of the church but euen nature from nature for nature teacheth vs to helpe our selues where scripture doth not contradict and as a Puritant seeketh a pulpit or high place to preach in without looking whether he haue a warrant for it in the scripture to command him so rationall and sensible men doe seeke a particular habit for a preacher or Clergie man whereby he may be more decent and comely and his words and exhortations be receiued with more respect and authoritie and this without anie cōmande of the scripture which where it commandeth it maketh the thing cōmanded to be necessarie where it is silent there it maketh nothing vnlawfull Nephew If the Protestants were to disput vpon these conditions they would keepe of I warrant you Yet this I must tell you that it were a great satisfaction for indifferent men that haue beene brought vp in this verball and apparent respect of the scripture to see that the positions you would induce them vnto can bee and are maintened by scripture and that they are grounded therein This perhapps you can doe by shewing mee some other waie of dealing with thē and whether there be not §. 15 An other manner of disputing out of scripture VNcle For their sakes cozen I will tell you of an other sort of disputation wherein the Protestant shall haue no other disaduantage but of his cause For I thinke that the Catholike cause may not only be maintened by scripture but also that it hath the better stāding precisely to scripture alone I confesse this kinde of disputation is not fit for manie Auditors but only for moderate and vnderstanding men And it is to make this the question Whether partie is more probable if only scripture were to bee alleadged This Question requireth diuers suppositions where vpon both sides are to be agreed which I feare will bee some what hard As what texts are to preuaille what cōmentaries or explicatiōs shall be allowed of what is a proper and an improper speeche amongst improper speeches which must be preferred what copies of euerie text shal be held for good what coniectures shall be accounted null against the naturall sense And manie other such positions which would not be easily resolued This donne let both sides bring their places for the pointe in question and so the disputatiō will only be of the qualificatiō of the places that is to shew whether are more apparēt and likely of the two And for this I see lekewise that so manie logicall principles are first to bee resolued which partly are found as yet amongst the critickes disputations as that all the Logickes hitherto inuented would not afford sufficiēt light and instruction to make an euident conclusion whether side were more apparent in words and Tetxs And therefore you may ghesse how farr these disputations out of scripture are frō clearing doubts what litle good cometh of them vnlesse they bee well gouerned And how for the most part the best credit or the best tongue carrieth awaie the day by the Auditor's preiudicat opinion or weaknesse In a word the scripture being not written for this end to wit for the
whether you doe not thinke that this church Whereof the particular church of Rome was a part and peraduenture the principall Was not to bee obeyed by euerie particular man and euerie particular church she being the whole they but meÌ„bers or parts Shee hauing receiued Christs doctrine and therefore able to teach it she hauing receiued the Keyes of heauen and therefore who refused to heare hir should be esteemed as a heathen or Publican And in a word she being the spouse of Iesus Christ and the mother of this faithfull children Nephew All this is so euideÌ„t that I thinke nether Protestant nor Puritant will deny it But what doe you drawe out of this Vncle. Nay softly cozen I must aske you one question more before I conclude anie thing and it is What became of this church when it fell froÌ„ Christ I meane were the men and their gouernors sodainly extinct and others raised in their places or did there still continue a publicke face and successiue gouerment of the same church euen in their errors and so the externall church remained and descended to our days though with corrupt faith and doctrine Nephew This I doubt not likewise but euerie one will grant you for all the Protestants that euer I heard doe acknowledge it nor doe I imagine that anie will deny it Vncle. Why then cozen wee will draw this conclusion that That church which is now in communion with the particular church of Rome was once the true church or if you please to saie she was but a part of the true church so let it bee at least she had the true faith and doctrine and euerie particular man or church with in hir owne compasse was obliged to obey hir as hauing those worthie titles which you acknowledge euen now to bee then due vnto hir But now if a Protestant telleth you shee hath since fallen and lost those goodly titles How would you conuince him or at least can you tell me §. 2 What force the arguments of Protestants against Catholikes in this question ought to haue NEphew To conuince a Protestant in this point I would haue recourse to bookes and learned men who should mantaine and shew that his position were false for I am not so well learned as to bee able to proue it of my selfe Vncle. I hold you not for a warie gamester at this play for why would you leaue your best waâ—d and put your self vpon the disaduantage I meane why will you put your self to proue the negatiue your aduersarie being obliged to conuince the positiue for if he coÌ„fesse as he doth our church was once the true church we haue the presumption on our side vntill he proue the contrarie Besides our church was once the spouse of Christ by their owne verdict though now the stile hir the whore of Babilon Erroneous and Adulteresse And how I pray you cozen would your self take it if one should laye the like imputation vpon your bedfellow without sufficient proofe to make it good And imagine Christ Iesus will be no lesse offended to see his deare spouse whoÌ„ he bought and washed with his owne harts blood so shamefully traduced without a legitimate cause and iust occasion Doe you thinke hee will not brand such accusors for infamous and sacrilegious calumniators Or if such an accusor should faille of his proofe doth he not conuict him self of the most heynous crime that can be imagined And likewise if this same church was erected and instituted by God him self for our lawfull Ladie and true Gouernesse can you thinke that who reuolteth from the loyaltie and obedience due vnto hir without euident proofe of hir escheate from that throne and dignitie doth not declare him self a traytor and rebell to God and her And in a word if shee once were that church to whom Christ gaue the rodd of iustice and sent all professours of his name to heare hir voice and sentence vnder penaltie of being reputed heathens and publicans doth not hee incurre those curses and deserue those ignominious titles who doth leaue hir and deuide him self from hir without legall warrant of his separatioÌ„ Doth not therefore common sense conclude that who soeuer confesseth the Roman Catholike church to haue beene the true aÌ„d lawfull church of Christ is by this verie deede obliged to proue cleerely and euidently hir fall from that maiestie or els in his owne conscience and iudgment must needes bee lyable to those faule and vnworthie taintes of trayson and rebellion against God and his church Nephew I confesse you speake no parables nor is there anie deepe learning required to conceiue the euidence of your discourse Yet this I must tell you that I feare you might haue spared your labour for there 's no protestant but will easily vndertake to proue that the RomaÌ„ church is gone astraie for if they cannot doe this they can doe nothing their whole Religion being but as they them selues confesse a taking awaye of abuses crept in and their Diuinitie no other then to shew this And if you would shew their proofes to be insufficient I feare you would require a greater scholler then my self to comprehende your reasons Vncle. Bee not discouraged nephew but looke into the case and tell mee what Kind of proofes you thinke the Protestants are bound to bring to 〈◊〉 them selues from those heauie censures I tould you of Doe you thinke it were sufficient to bring such arguments as some philosophers brought to proue snow to be blacke Or such as by man's wit and the art of topickes a good logician may frame vpoÌ„ a subiect giuen him in which kinde some great men haue taken pleasure to commende baldnesse blindnesse and the like imperfections others to contradicte manifest truths as that there neuer was anie warre of Troy Nay doe you thinke cozen t' is sufficieÌ„t that their arguments bee only as good as those which the Catholikes bring against them Or in a word ought not their arguments to bee euident and vnanswerable in euerie indifferent and vnderstanding man's iudgmeÌ„t That is should they not be such as that a man expert in controuersies and of a sound and vnpassionate iudgment hauing seene what the most learned Catholikes can saie against the protestants proofes must neuerthelesse thinke in his hart that they nether haue giueÌ„ nor can giue anie contenting and satisfactorie answere therevnto Nephew The plaine truth is if it were my case betwixt my wife and my self I should not thinke to haue corresponded with my loyaltie towards hir nor with that care of hir honnour which I ought to haue vntill I had ventured my life to haue his harts blood who should haue sought to wrong hir reputatioÌ„ so highly without such proofe as you require Nether doe I beleeue that anie Prince or state would thinke him a loyall subiect who should conceale and foster that man that should disperse and so we in the harts of their subiects the like suspicions against their gouermeÌ„t T' is true I
should be willing to heare of my wiue's misdemainours before they come to that height and euidence for mine owne caueat if which God forbid she should proue vntrue But there is a great difference betwixt giuing warning of likelyhoods and apparences of a mischeefe whereby it may be preuented and blemishing or staining my wiue's and myne owne honnour with the deepest disgrace that can fall vpon such an indiuiduall couple Besides I know the bond of loue and dutie betwixt man and wife to be so great as that ordinarie suspicious ought not to persuade 〈◊〉 â—reaâ—â— in so strong a knot the greater and harder effect must haue a more powerfull cause and it were a folly to thinke all proofes sufficient and befitting all cases And in my minde the reason is because no amitie nor fidelitie can subsists if such principles were suffered to be taught and mantained For how is it possible human accidents of them selues being intricate and variable and men now adays so wittie to doe harme and mischeefe but that euerie false tongue shall set dissention betwixt the neerest and dearest couples And mutinie and stir vp to sedition the most faithfull subiects against their Prince if lesse then morall euidence be sufficient to proue matters of this nature and qualitie Wherefore I doe not thinke his Maiestie would suffer his preachers to drawe their PediGree from Rome if he did not perswade him selfe they were able to bring satisfactorie proofes of their relinquishing that authoritie for this were to authorize a Rebellion against the court and state of conscieÌ„ce Which hath a greater force and power then pure temporall Allegiance this being grounded vpon oath and dutie both which receiue their strength and vertue from conscience If therefore you inteÌ„de to giue me full satisfaction in this pointe you must cleerely shewe vnto me that the Protestants proofes are insufficient Which though I doubt not of it seeing our men haue euer beene so readie to buckle with the Protestants euen vpoÌ„ most disaduantagious conditions yet I conceiue that this cannot be otherwise effected then by experience bringing them to dispute together Vncle Deare cozen I am hartily glad to heare you discourse so strongly and solidly it giue 's me great hopes of your future abilities But if you will haue patience your self shall be iudge of my question nor doe I thinke it needefull to haue recours to anie farther learning then common sense and naturall reasoÌ„ first therefore let vs see whether §. 3 Standing in likelyhood the 〈…〉 partie be greater more learned and more vertuous SVppose then you had a case in law of great difficultie and that you should consult in Councell a douzen or twentie lawyers reputed the best of the Preaâ—â—â—e or at least the worst of them farr beyond your skil to iudge whether he were not as able as the best And of these twenty seuenteene or eighteene of them should saie you would infalibly loose your cause if you tooke such or such a course in it the other 2. or 3. should as constantly affirme you would winne it in so much that the question would be brought to this contestation whether lawyers were more learned and skillfull To which side would you cleaue in this case Nephew If you suppose me vnable to iudge of their skill and learning and that they be all equaly reputed hoÌ„nest men though in deede I cannot well see how they can come to such an obstinate coÌ„testation if they be all as they are reputed I must needes choose the multitude aÌ„d ether take with the seuenteene or playe the foole notoriously I see well inough what you ayme at to wit that because Catholike countries are greater then Protestants iudgment therefore is to be giuen on the Catholikes side But I praye how shall I know that there be more learned men amongst Catholikes theÌ„ amongst Protestants Or that the Catholike Doctours be more learned them ours at home Ti 's true I know our learned men saie that they Protestants of other countries are not of the same Religion with ours heare in EnglaÌ„d yet I see they agree all together against vs what discordes soeuer they haue amongst them selues Vncle. Your fresh witts runne to fast Remember you were supposed to be ignorant of the proportion of their learning in your lawyers case and therefore choosed the multitude Wherefore as long as it is constantly confessed that there be farr more learned men Catholikes then there be learned Protestants so long the laye people ignorant and vnable to iudge of learnings must stand conuinced by the multitude of which this vulgar knowe's no more but that they are accounted learned by those amoÌ„gst whom they liue as ours are heare with vs. And to giue you farther satisfaction in this pointe There be more learned Catholikes then Protestants you know that maÌ„ for man by all likelyhood Readers of Diuinitie are the greatest schollers their exercise and profession specially if they be of manie yeares enabling and improuing them more then others who haue not the like occasion Of these compare the number which England afforde's to the multitudes which Catholike countries yeildes You haue beene in Paris where you might haue seene in some one howse or College more then be in all England whereof some haue taught Diuinitie a douzen or twentie yeares fiue or six actually reeding and as manie perhaps who hauing spent a great part of their age in that profession haue now giuen ouer I speake no secrets the most ignorant man that is may see and proue what I saie with his owne eyes ether in Italie spaine Germanie France or Low countries And I may adde that the time which one of theÌ„ spende's in studie is double to what one in our Vniuersities heare in England doth imploye These being married men hauing care of their wiues and Children and are saith S. Paul deuided 1. Cor. 7. one halfe to their bookes the other to their househould And you know wiues are no friends of bookes learning and children spring both from the braine and both require abundance of spirits and therefore not wel mached together And sure amongst Catholikes a learned resolution is rather to be looked for at a Priest's hands ordinarily speaking then from a maried man by reason his time breeding and imployment are more proportioned therevnto To these learned meÌ„ now liuing you may adde all that liued for manie ages not so vnlearned as the Protestants perswade themselues sithence the verie first beginners of Protestancie mett with their matches such as they ether did not dare to meete face to face or if they did they still came of with dishonor Wherefore euerie man that vnderstande's anie thing more then his owne home must needes grant that if number or likelyhood of persons may carie the cause the question in ended Wherevnto I could adde that reason which you mentioned how the Protestants in diuers countries are not of our Religion nether in respect of beliefe or Gouerment No
euen now before it passe without controule Nephew Truly sir me thinke's you speake with reason and common sense Yet this authoritie being so great I see not Why it may not of it selfe and by it's instruments worke such an effect as that learned men vpon whose number I am to rely may not become partially affected in the iudgment of Religion and consequently the greater number be more corrupted then the lesser and so the opinion of three were to be preferred before the opinion of the seuēteene Nay in my iudgment experience tell 's vs that not euerie tenth person amongst learned Catholikes doe know the true value and force of our Aduersaries arguments but with a preoccupated dispositiō vndervalue them when perhapps they cannot giue a full and satisfactorie answere vnto them And how should it be otherwise sithence from our childhood we are taught to rely vpon the church for matters of Religion and to reiect and hate anie mā who should seeke to make a contrarie impression in vs. This being plāted in vs in our tender age and growing with nature cannot choose but make a vehement preoccupation in vs whē we come to be able to iudge of controuersies in Religion Nor is it to the pourpose whether it be fit that we haue such an impression or no for I oppose not the thing but the argument which vrge's for the greater number of learned men Vncle. And haue you not marked the like amongst Protestāts ād much more amōgst Puritants And doe you not finde that those who slight Catholike arguments are no lesse preoccupated then the Catholikes you speake of Nay if you marke it they greatest contemners of their Aduersarie's argumēts be they Catholikes or Protestants are commonly the most zealous or rather the most ignorant of the zealous So that in deede the true cause of this partialitie is ignorance and not anie prohibition which contrariwise is a great prouoker to make men doubt of their Religion For euer since our Grand mother Eue harkened to the first why did God all precepts whose reason we vnderstand not haue beene suspicious vnto vs. Tell me then I pray if you were in a shipp where there were a Pilote and his mate and some Captane who had neuer beene at sea before and in a controuersie about their iournay they fall to variance The Pilote and his Mate saying this is the waie the Captane by reports or guesses of his owne saie's that 's not the waie And therevpon the Cōpanie in the shipp take's parts whether side in this case would you iudge to be partiall Nephew T' is cleere that those who ioyne with the Captane are partiall for where the one side hath skill the other none t' is euident that if the question be of skill we ought adhere to the skilfull This I saie is euidēt if there be no particular circumstāce or speciall reason to the contrarie As in our case if the Pilote had some interest to carrie his shipp out of the waie then it were an other matter but stāding precisely in the termes of your case t' is cleere ō which side the partialitie is for the Pilote hauing skill the captaine none the Pilot's aduise were to be preferred in common sense and to side with him were wisdome Vncle. Why then who adhere's to vnskillfull iudgers in matters of Religion are partiall and who adhere's to experts in those matters are wise and rationall Wherefore if the seuenteene adhere to the Mistrisse and teacher of Religiō and the three fly from hir doth not these by this verie act make them selues partiall and those impartiall You must first know whether side goes the right waie before you can suppose ether side to be partiall and consequently the number will still preuaille as long as t' is in doubt whether side is partiall And if one side adhere to that part which was in prepossession the other plead against possession you are bound by the law of nature by the institution of all cōmunities and by commō sense to iudge the pleaders against possession to be partiall vntill they haue proued their motiō so reasonable as wil ouer balāce the great authoritie of possession which is against them Farther if you considere that Christian Religion is supernaturall that is such an one as cannot be learned but frō Almightie God to wit from the Apostles or from them whō the Apostles or their Disciples haue taught you will see that there is no disputing about Religion but only to aske what hath beene taught vs which none can tell vs but those whose life and professiō it is to teach vs that doctrine which them selues first learned to wit the Bishopps and Pastors of the church So that who doubt's of what these mē haue taught and doe teach vs must needes be ignorant of the meanes and waie of knowing Christian doctrine and passionately refuse the true ād certaine rule thereof Nephew I see myne errour and it was the same as if one should condemne a man of partialitie who keepe 's possession of his owne because he yeild's not vp the state whereof he is possessed before iudgmēt be giuē against him whereas contrariwise in the Ciuill law which I once studied a litle if one be put out of quiet possession his Aduersarie may not pleade vntill he be put in againe And sure of all cases the fowlest is to doubt in matters of Religion before one hath reason for where authoritie is plainely on the one side there none cā doubt without wronging that Authoritie vnlesse he haue a reason which doth ouer ballance it And so I am satisfied in this pointe Vncle. Take this with you nephew that generally no cōtrouersies of Religion fall out without some motiues of interest on both sides and so both sides may be suspected of partialitie but cheefely that which beginne's the change Wherefore suppose men were forbiddē to doubt that would be of litle force if once they sawe their commanders were interessed vnlesse they sawe withall that they could not mende them selues Besides in our schooles all things are caled in question which would not be suffered if it endāgered the churche's beliefe Lastly being t' is great schollers that gouerne men's iudgments if they did finde by their learning anie other sure ground of Religion then standing to the churche's authoritie and iudgment they would esteeme as much of hir Commandes and Sampson did of the Philistins shutting their gates vpon him And so wee see by experience that all truly learned ād vnpassionat mē on our side besides the motife of the churche's authoritie adhere vpon pure reason to the Catholike tenets and will protest vpon all that 's holy that they would be of the same Religiō though there were no commande finding it most conformable to reason and to the grounds of Christianitie Nephew The truth is I know not how to answere your discourse yet perhapps a Protestant would saie that all 's but probabilitie and likelihood and therefore to hazard a
most easie and most naturall conceite that man can haue to conceiue that some thing is the cause of these goods and hurtes Now man's conuersation being cheefely with one an other men naturally apprehende all things to be donne by some vnderstanding thing as they see their owne actions are So that if there were a cōpagnie of men sprung out of the earth like Cadmus his people or raised out of emitts like the Myrmidons yet would they if they were truly men within a litle while frame them selues some Religion according as by chance or some one's apprehēsion or phāsie they should conceite their goods and euills to proceede from some visible or inuisible thing Wherefore I admire not that some people adored the sunne some the starrs others some rare men from whom they had receiued in their life time great benefits imagining that euen after death they were power full and beneficiall And surely it is much more impossible that a people which once hath had some Religion should quitte forget it and come to haue none at all for these causes will be euer knocking at their harts putting them in minde and driuing them into the cōceite of some God or Gouernor if therefore the effects of perpetuall causes must be euerlasting these causes of Religion to wit effects whose causes are hidden and the good and euill which come vnto vs by them being neuer awanting t' is impossible that Religion should euer cease Vncle. And thinke you not cosen that these same causes doe as well moue those who are setled in a faith or Religion to continue without changing their once receiued beliefe as well I saie as they doe keepe them from forgetting that Religion which they are once possessed of Nephew I confesse it seeme's euident to me that the change of Religion can not come by pure negligence and sleepinesse no more then the losse of it being these warnings of nature which force vs to Religion doe also continually call vpon vs to keepe our once practized faith and credulitie vnlesse there be greater causes to countermande it which I doe not see but may be easily found some times Vncle. Peraduenture not so easily as you imagine for an Errour is a persuasion of the minde And nothing can worke vpon our vnderstanding but it self and our will who soeuer therefore will make such a persuasiō must worke vpon one of these two The will you know is moued and weilded by hopes and feares the vnderstanding by reason and authoritie How error in bred in man Whence arise three waies by which such an opinion may creepe into mē's mindes 1. by bringing more reason for it thē cā be brougth on the contrarie side 2. by the authoritie of some so great as that their verdicts are held beyond examining and 3. by the power of some whose hands are full of paines and pleasures and who can thereby moue the will which being moued can make the vnderstanding belieue what she desire's Doe you know anie other meanes Nephew Not I vncle for I see that if I should bring anie other you would reduce it to some of these three But me thinke's such an opiniō might steale vpon the church at vnawares some obscure man broaching it at the first and others accepting of it by a kinde of negligēce and indifferencie to anie opinion or by too much credulitie not distinguishing right from wrōg though I see this touche's some what vpon authoritie and so will be reduced to that mēber of your diuision Vncle. It importe's not to what member it be reduced so there be no fourth waie But I though you had learned sufficiently alreadie to exclude this for what make's more notice to be taken of anie thing then that which changeth some publicke and vniuersall practize Looke but if anie one goe through the streete's in some strang and new fashioned apparell how all staire and gaze vpon him the verie boys leaue their playe to follow him and looke at him And therefore to saie such an Innouation can be brought in without being taken notice of is as much as to saie the cause of admiration or taking notice can be set before our eyes without working it's effect Which is to saie that fire and tow should lye together without burning or a stone hang at libertie in the aire without falling downe these be impossibilities in nature and are in the racke of those things against which nature folliciteth by hi◠continuall causes of hopes and feares which made you confesse but now that negligence was not a sufficient cause to produce the change of Religion Wherefore let vs see if by anie of these three waies which I haue proposed the change of Religion can happen Nephew Nay sir I will doe you the fauour to exclude one of them to wit the waie of persuasion or by alledging more reason against the true Religion then can be brought for it for seing truths beare witnesse to one another and that the Religion we speake of is supposed to be true t' is impossible that more reason should be brought against it then for it Nor is the greatnesse of anie man's wit who should stand to maintaine the error to be feared for this error being to passe through a great part of the world t' is not credible that one man should so farr surpasse in wit the rest of the world as to put them all from their stāding without contradictiō Or that in so much time as is necessarie for the spreading of such an error into the maine of the church no man should haue wit enough if not to bring more potent argumēts for the truth atleast to finde out the weakenesse and fallacie of those which are brought against it which would be sufficient to hinder the progresse of such an error for who is in possession of an opinion must haue an insoluable reasō to put him out of it if he be wise and constant Much more those who ground their tenets vpon receiuing them from their forefathers and hould all reason insufficiēt to proue their faith because of it's supernaturalitie and therefore ought more to harken to what was deliuered thē to anie reason which may seeme to vrge the change of what is knowne to be deliuered Thus much I confesse is cleere but why the authoritie of some one or more whose words are aboue examine or the power of some who hould's the balance of good and badd of paines and pleasures may not worke an error into the church that I doe not vnderstand Vncle. You haue drawne the question from an vniuersall to a particular for we spoke of a change betwixt two Religions in common and you speake of a change from a true one to a false one Yet this being sufficient for our intent I will add that if you had that conceite of the true Religion which much thought hath bredd in me to wit that t' is the most high wise rationnall conformable to man's nature to gouerment to all
that how soeuer the common people doe not distinguish what is of Tradition and what is but of some learned men's opinioÌ„s neuerthelesse those whom we call Deuines if truly they be such as the name require's may aÌ„d doe distinguish positions of such different natures For Christian doctrine is not a bundle of loose positions as those who negligently looke on it may thinke but a true discipline hanging together by consequences and order tending to one end And of this doctrine and discipline some parts be such as cannot be knowne but by immediate reuelation others such as no sensible man can doubt of if he beleeue the former And learned meÌ„ know that of both these two the one is expresly deliuered by tradition the other is as firme as if it were so deliuered For as it was reueiled that our sauiour is truly God and man so euerie man of coÌ„mon sense knowes that he had two wills Deuine and human against the Monothelites Other points there may be which neede art and studie to deduce and fetch them out of the two former And of these likewise a true Deuine cannot be ignoraÌ„t being they are be fruits of learning and studie and consequently haue euer beene in the soules and writings of learned Masters And these points euerie one knowes who is conuersant in Logike and in iudging the qualities of such propositions as belong to scieÌ„ce And your self I am sure by the litle skill you haue therein and by the smale light of this discourse will eastly iudge that this is reasonable Nephew I conceiue your meaning but whereas you saie that the points of the second order are as firme as those which are deliuered by Tradition me thinke's that 's not reasonable sithence Tradition relye's wholy on God and his word but the other only vpoÌ„ man's discourse which is falible and easily mistaken and therefore must of necessitie be much inferior Vncle. I would not haue you take my words so precisely not in so rigorous a degree of comparison for so euen of demonstrations the precedent will be esteemed more certaine then that which is deduced out of it though in a morall eâ—tiâ—ation the certainties be equall And so it is in those two degrees for truly that litle discourse which is required for the second degree is infalible certaine and euident and therefore the knowledge proceeding froÌ„ it may well be rancked with the former degree But I suppose you expect to heare why it doth not follow that if a truth not deliuered by Tradition may neuerthelesse passe for such why I saie an errour may not haue the same progresse and surprise the church that is §. 11 Why no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God ANd this I will shew you in a word because it falleth into the repetitioÌ„ of what we haue alreadie discoursed on The impossibilities are three First it trencheth vpon the resolution wee formerly made that one man's authoritie could not preuaile against and ouer the whole church for this is the difference betwixt a truth and a false hood that a truth though it beginne from one yet may it be accepted of by all by reason of it's euidence Which when one hath laid opeÌ„ others may follow not for the man's authoritie but for the loue of the seene truth Whereas falsehood which cannot bring euidence with it must be bolstered vp by the man's credit aÌ„d reputation which you know is insufficient Secondly it is impossible an errour should generally preuaille by reason of the immutabilitie which is in the vniuersalitie of contingent causes whose particulars may be defectiue but the vniuersalls cannot So that as it is impossible in nature that all children should be borne with one eye all coltes with three leggs or the like so were it a monstrous accident and that in a higher and more immutable nature if an errour should generally preuaile and passe through all mankinde or through so great a part of it as we make accounte the Catholike church is and will euer be The third impossibilitie is because it trencheth vpon the stabilitie of Religion for sithence we agreed that t' is impossible for anie nation to haue no Religion and as impossible to change a true into a false And likewise that Christian doctrine hath the nature of science so farre as that no errour can fall into it but must bring contradiction and opposition against the principles and receiued practize of the church and so make a breach against the antient possession it doth therefore plainely appeare that as it is impossible for such a breach to become vniuersall in time and place so likewise must it needes be impossible that an vntruth should be vniuersally receiued for tradition hauing not beene deliuered as such Nephew I must confesse your reasons seeme good yet might one saie all your reasoÌ„s are but morall persuasions which may faile as if one should saie it is reasonable to thinke an honest man will not lye yet I doubt not but some times the coÌ„trarie happene's Wherefore I pray you tell me §. 12 Of what qualitie you thinke these your reasons and discourses be and whether you conceiue them to beare an absolute certaintie VNcle I feare it will be to farr on the night before I can satisfie your difficultie yet I will shew you breefly and familiarly what may suffice Tell me then doe you thinke there is such a towne as Rome or Constantinople Nephew That I doe I would I knew what I aske as well Vncle. Why who tould you there were anie such townes Nephew Truly I doe not remember who tould me so in particular but I haue heard so manie talke of them without doubting that it were follie to doubt of it Vncle. But if I or some other of whose honestie you doe not doubt should tell you we haue beene there and haue seene those townes with our owne eyes would you belieue it more certainely then you doe Nephew No in deede vncle for although I should in that case make no doubt of it yet their authorities vpon which I doe alreadie belieue it are no lesse nay farr greater seeing that if it were not fo manie more of no lesse credit and reputation must be lyars whoÌ„ though I cannot name yet nature tell 's me that if thousands had not reported it of their owne knowledge it could not passe so constaÌ„tly and vncontrowlably as is doth Vncle. But if a man should come with manie great reasoÌ„s and motiues to persuade you that there is not euer was anie such cities a we speake of Nay let vs suppose that if you liued but 20 myles from London where euerie day you fawe hundreth's come from theÌ„ce and your self had neuer beene there And there should come vnto you a man who should labour to shew by reason that it were a follie to thinke there were anie such towne as LondoÌ„ Or to make our supposition more strong suppose you had liued diuers yeares in London and had neuer seene