Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	church_n	discipline_n	government_n	3,314	5	6.9877	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91879	The falsehood of Mr. VVilliam Pryn's Truth triumphing, in the antiquity of popish princes and Parliaments. To which, he attributes a sole, sovereigne, legislative, coercive power in all matters of religion; discovered to be full of absurdities, contradictions, sacriledge, and to make more in favour of Rome and Antichrist, than all the bookes and pamphlets which were ever published, whether by papall or episcopall prelates, or parisites, since the reformation. With twelve queries, eight whereof visit Mr. Pryn the second time, because they could not be satisfied at the first.	Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?	1645 (1645)	Wing R1672; Thomason E273_16; Thomason E282_11; ESTC R200048	28,156	36

of Scotland Discipl pag. 89. THe Nationall Assemblies ought alwayes to be received in their owne liberty and have their owne place And all men as well Magistrates as inferiours to be subject to the judgement of the same in Ecclesiasticall causes without any reclamation or appellation to any judge Civill or Ecclesiasticall within the Realme Doctor Adam Stuart's second part of his Duply to the two Brethren p. 30. The Civill Magistrate is subject in a spirituall way unto the Church He must learne Gods will by the Ministers of the Church who are Gods Ambassadours sent to him He must be subject to Ecclesiasticall censures Mr. William Pryn in the Title page termes his Truth triumphing over Falshood A just and seasonable vindication of the undoubted Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction Right Legislative Coercive power of Christian Emperours Kings Magistrates Parliaments in all matters of Religion church-Church-government Discipline Ceremonies Manners Authour of the Pamphlet entituled The readinesse of the Scots advance into England 6. of November 1643. The Generall Assembly is subordinate to no Civill judicature whatsoever c. Apollonius Considerat Quarund Controvers c. p. 108. Particular Churches as well as Generall Assemblies have their authority immediately from God Mr. Thomas Edwards sayes in his Antapologia p. 163. Junius Zanchius Amesius c. make the subject matter of politicall adminstration to be res humanae humane things and matters but of Ecclesiasticall divine and sacred Page 166. Is it that you doe give a power to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things of the ultimate determination of matters purely Ecclesiasticall which the Presbyterians principles doe not as in matters of doctrine scandall c. And page 168. Spirituall remedies and meanes must be used in the Kingdome of Christ and by them Christ doth his worke And hence in Ecclesiasticall Discipline and those scandalls in the Church which are the point in hand punishments in the body or in the purse which can be by the power of the Magistrate have no place Divines of the Church of Scotland in a booke called A Dispute against the English Popish Ceremonies obtruded upon the Church of Scotland p. 150. It followeth that Christ hath committed the power of judging defining and making lawes about those matters viz. which concern the worship of God not to Magistrates but to the Ministers of the Church Calvin Institut l. 4. c. 11. sect 16. Since the Church hath of its owne any power of compelling neither may require it I speake of Civill coercive power it is the duty of pious Kings and Princes to uphold Religion by their lawes edicts and judgements Junius Controvers 3. l. 3. c. 26. sect 12. Whereas some things are matters of conscience and belong to the judicatory of Heaven that I may speake according to the Canonists others humane and temporall appertaining to an earthly judicatorie in sacred divine and Church affaires the judgement is never lawfully committed unto the Civill Magistrate no not to the Emperour himselfe because holy things are of another Kingdome and cognizance Six Impossibilities which doe necessarily accompany persecution for cause of Conscience 1 IT is impossible that the Gospell should come to be preached unto all Nations if men may be questioned for matters of conscience 2 It is impossible that such as know but in part should grow in knowledge or from one measure and degree of faith unto another 3 It is impossible that in a rationall way there should be a firme secure peace throughout the world nay not in a Province City or Towne so long as men make a point of conscience to compell one another to their opinions 4 It is impossible to prescribe such a way for suppressing new or different opinions whatsoever which to any State or Church may seeme hereticall but there will still be left a gap a possibility of fighting against God even when such State or Church thinke they fight for him most of all 5 It is impossible that either the weake beleevers mis-beleevers or unbeleevers can be won by our godly conversation as is required 1 Pet. 2. 12. and 3. 1. 2. 1 Cor. 7. 12. 16. so long as we will not suffer them to live amongst us 6 It is impossible for a man to hold fast the truth or be fully perswaded in his owne heart of what he does of what Religion he makes choice of unlesse after he hath searched the Scriptures and try'de the spirits whether they be of God or no it be lawfull for him to reject that which shall appeare to him as evill and adhere to that which seems good in his owne judgement and apprehension The Falshood of Mr. William Prynn's Truth Triumphing briefly discovered Sir YOur Title sayes Truth triumphing over Falshood Antiquity over Novelty you meane I suppose Antick Truth over Novel Falshood And the truth is whoever considers your ensuing Discourse will finde it to bee Antick Truth very Antick such as to the Reformed World of Christians would well neere have quite been antiquated and totally become ridiculous had not such unskilfull Antiquaries as William Prynne of Lincolns Inn Esquire taken so much unnecessary and thankles paines in gathering them up from Dunghills and by whole Volumnes and Impressions to delude and cozen the unstable people of his party the truth whereof that himselfe and all others into whose hands this paper happens may suddenly perceive besides the severall absurdities and contradictions let them only take notice that both the Truth and Antiquity hee so much speakes and boasts of are deduced only from the abominable presidents of superstitious Popery some whereof I shall particularly and yet briefly mention as I finde them confusedly pestred amongst themselves in the undigested rapsody of his more vaine Discourse But before I leave the specious Title thereof I desire all Readers may observe how amongst others you terme it a Vindication of the undoubted Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction Legislative of Christian Emperours by Scripture texts as if amongst your Antick readings you had discovered some New-found-Land wherein you would make your over credulous Disciples thinke there had lived Christian Emperours before or at the writing of the Scriptures who verified your Antick Doctrine and Assertions This Grand taske like a very Atlas you pretend to take upon you in Refutation of Mr. John Goodwin without so much as disturbing any of his arguments or of the Answers to your twelve Questions which both your Epistle and the latter part of your Booke take notice of but because you cannot make a satisfactory Reply and yet are not so ingenuous as to acknowledge it and yeeld to Truth you traduce as malicious and full of virulencie against Presbytery and the Scots page 125. and worse then the Popish Gunpowder plot Epist Dedic Are not these powerfull Arguments able to confute the very Apostles had they but been alledged in their dayes by such an irreconcileable and implacable spirit as is Mr. Prynn's witnesse besides others his proceedings against Colonell Fines Surely your friends will

right of Christian Princes for calling such Assemblies can any wayes make legall the present sitting of the Divines at Westminster or how he can make atonement for himselfe to give occasion that both their assembling and whole proceedings may thus be called in question But p. 88. you bring in a Parenthesis which doubtlesse the Assembly will thinke had far better beene left out that the assent of the Clergy is only by way of assistance and advice not simply necessary to the Parliaments determining what is heresie however for my part I do not much dissent with you therein and if the Assembly did like as well thereof should thinke it might somewhat qualifie their over forward and eager appetites which else might too likely lead them to declare those wayes hereticall after which Paul was not ashamed to say hee worshipped the God of his Fathers Act. 24. 14. But may not both Kings and Parliaments reprove you like an unlucky Cow who having given great quantity of milke kicks it downe with her foot for contradicting your selfe and plundring them so speedily of all Ecclesiasticall power which before in a good mood you cast upon them so liberally without allowance saying p. 141. That there is the selfe same reason and equity for severall combined Churches in a Councell Synod Presbytery to have a coercive power over every particular Congregation in their limits as for any particular Congregation to claime or exercise a jurisdiction in point of direction or correction over any or every particular member of it This assertion I conceive is yet more prodigious than all your Popish presidents with which you ever were acquainted and I beleeve that never any body hereafter will so much as acknowledge you in this opinion Whereas the Title of your Booke and whole Discourse in generall ascribe all power and authority unto the Civill Magistrate both in Civill and Ecclesiasticall matters This passage gives the same unto a Synod even a Coercive that is all Power and Authority and that both in Civill and Ecclesiasticall matters provided they doe but colour and call them Ecclesiasticall for nothing of Coercive can be otherwise than Civill properly If you excuse your selfe by saying you meant a Synod ratified by Authority of Parliament I answer that you must meane a Synod so ratified by Authority of Parliament as some Presbyterians of Scotland meane when they expect that Parliaments must doe it ex officio whether they bee willing or unwilling and if your meaning had been otherwise you might have brought your comparison betweene a Parliament and particular Congregations not a Synod besides that the power of direction which you acknowledge to be in every particular Congregation towards any or every member thereof I doe not finde to bee granted them or so much as medled with by Authority of Parliament so likewise if you will have it any wayes hold parallel you must meane the Synods Canons so confirmed by authority of Parliament as that the Parliaments confirmation must still wait upon and follow the Synods beck and requisition That part of the Statute 37. H. 8. c. 17. which you bring to establish the King Head of the Church sayes That by Holy Scripture All Authority and Power is wholly given to him to heare and determine All manner of causes Ecclesiasticall and to correct All vice and sinne whatsoever and such persons as his Majesty shall appoint thereunto So that whereas a negative voice which hath beene and is still the great controversie betwixt the King and Parliament in Civill matters only this Statute 37. H. 8. c. 17. with Mr. Pryns opinion and consequences thereupon doe freely grant the King in all spirituall causes and affaires Surely if all Englishmen did agree with Mr. Pryn in this particular the King might like enough be willing for the present to part from his negative voice in Civill matters in full assurance of regaining it in recompence of Pardons and Dispensations which he might grant by virtue of his Headship of the Church with the sole authority of correcting all vice and sinne and finall determining all causes Ecclesiasticall The truth is that Christian Kings and Princes have de facto done much with Civill censures in maintenance of Religion whether right or wrong established by Law But the point is what they did or might doe lawfully de jure Whence is their power derived Surely the power of Princes pretending to the name of Christian whether Papists Lutherans Calvinists Brownists or Anabaptists and even of Turkish and Pagan Princes is all alike So that whatsoever power the best Reformed Princes can justly assume unto themselves in Ecclesiasticall affaires even Popish Kings and the Great Turk may fully pretend and act as much in and about the Churches within their Territories and neither of them be more disobeyed or resisted than the other The power is given to them as Magistrates and Princes not as Christians otherwise they might be deposed at any time if they became Antichristian which is exploded for a Popish doctrine But as Artaxerxes did not make that Decree for building of the Temple out of love or conscience unto the God of Ezra Ezra 7. from v. 21. to 26. So can it not be concluded from Kings and Magistrates interposing their Civill power about matters meerly Ecclesiasticall that therefore they might and did doe it by full authority from God since by the selfe same manner of arguing it would follow that Popery were the truest Religion because most Christian Princes as they are called have established Popery But it may have beene observed how Princes and Magistrates in all ages who have had the Sword of Justice in their keeping have for the most part beene kept in an ignorant and superstitious overawfulnesse by the Clergy of those times who still for their owne private ends prevailed with them to countenance and enforce their Constitutions by coercive meanes upon the people by which device of theirs both Prince and People became so entangled and ensnared to them by degrees that if either of them afterwards sought to withdraw themselves forth from this bondage they still found such a party of the other as was able to curb and bring them againe into subjection of Holy Church as they pretended though never so Popish or otherwise corrupt And this series of corrupted and corrupting presidents with their tyrannicall dominion over mens faith and consciences which the Apostle Paul disclaimed 2 Cor. 1. 24. Mr. Pryn produces as orthodox requiring it should bee established after the manner of Medes and Persians irrevocable and made very Scripture of ascribing by this Antick rabble of quotations as great a power unto the Civill Magistrate in spirituall matters as ever any Pope of Rome assumed unto himselfe But if the Civill Magistrate must be masters of our faith determining all controversies in Church affaires why I pray was Mr. Pryn so refractory to the Bishops who then were authorised by the Civill Magistrate of the united Kingdome which now

thanks to Valentinian and Theodosius for assembling the Councell of Illirium which sayes Vt nemo deesset volens nemo cog●tur invitus That no Bishop might be absent who was desirous to be there and none compelled who were unwilling to be present from whence followes an irrefragable consequence that their Councells Decrees or Canons did not binde all people universally but only such as of their owne accords submitted thereunto If Mr. Pryn will but procure the same just priviledge for his Independent Brethren they will have the lesse occasion of exceptions if he domineere over the volunteers of the Presbyterian party Page 87. You say The Statutes in Q. Maries dayes repealing divers Acts touching Religion in K. Edward 6. his Reigne and setting up Masse and the old Popish Liturgies againe doe sufficiently evidence the jurisdiction of our Princes and Parliaments in matters of the Church and Religion which is in effect first That this present Parliament or any other hereafter have a jurisdiction to set up Popery againe and so Judaisme or Turcisme even what they please for all Parliaments have equall power And secondly that if they doe set up Popery Judaisme or Turcisme that then all England must submit thereunto and consequently become Papists Jewes and Turkes or Hypocrites which is more worse then either for whatsoever a Magistrate especially the supreme has jurisdiction in that he may justly and lawfully put in execution and that the people may not disobey upon paine of sinning and danger of damnation Rom 13. 2. But under what colour and pretence then did Mr. Pryn refuse subjection unto Church government by Episcopacy and according to the Common-Prayer-Booke Doe not take it ill that I spur the question so soone unto you againe I may aske it oft-times before you will be able to answer once without condemning your selfe according to your principles and lawes by which you proyoke justice against the Independents Were not Episcopacy and the Common-Prayer-Booke established by Act of Parliament which had as great a power than as this present Parliament has now or any other can have hereafter Nay you say expressely p. 88. That the Statute 1 Eliz. chap. 2. for uniformity of Common-Prayer and Service in the Church and administration of the Sacraments enjoyning conformity under temporall and Ecclesiasticall punishments is an irrefragable proofe of the Parliaments power in all Church matters What was it tro that then encouraged you to withstand the jurisdiction of Parliaments when they agreed not with your owne humour and disposition which you now presse so violently upon the tender consciences of your Independent Brethren Can there appeare any other clearer reason for it to the apprehension of standers by moderate men even of Mr. Pryns best friends or any that have their wits about them than that Mr. Pryn having suffered for Christs cause as he thought to thinke more charitably of him than he doth of others upon false principles grew weary of it and resolv'd that as the Bishops domineer'd and persecuted him so he would repaire himselfe by persecuting others But did the only wise God thinke we resolve to create man after his owne Image to estate him in such a sad and execrable condition worse then that of Beasts Wolves Beares and Tygres as that hee must necessarily tyrannize or be tyrannized over both in soul body and yet it cannot possibly be otherwise if you will grant a power to Kings Parliaments or Synods to require conformity from others in any thing which is not agreeable to their consciences for if such a latitude and height of jurisdiction be granted but to the more orthodox Kings Parliaments and Synods both Papists Lutherans Calvinists and Independents pretending and really taking themselves to be the most orthodox are bound in conscience to lay claime to and put in execution this power of compelling all the world unto their uniformity and so infallibly produce the most cursed enmity and hatred betwixt all people but differing in opinion exceeding that of Cannibals or the profoundest of antipathies between any irrationall creatures whatsoever and therefore you are mightily mistaken p. 96. to be so confident that Independents would preach universall obedience and subjection under penalties Ecclesiasticall and Civill if the Parliament should establish an Independent government which are clearly incompatible and contradictory to themselves and principles the ignorance whereof though to some it may seeme as slight as easily apprehended by a willing and enquiring spirit I perswade my selfe hath not only transported Mr. Pryn himselfe but many others into multitudes of impertinencies and absurdities Oh that Mr. Pryn therefore or any one of the Presbyterian way who wishes well to godlinesse would but please to cast an eye upon John the Baptist chap. 10. and considerately give their opinion whether to be persecuted be not even the most infallible marke of the true Church and Saints of Christ notwithstanding most Christians thus persecute one another Page 94. and 109. You say the opposites to Parliaments Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction have formerly and more especially in this present Parliament addressed severall petitions to this High and Honourable Court for Reformation of the Church c. wherein under favour I conceive you have misapprehended their proceedings and intentions which doubtlesse were for the most part or best affected that the Parliament in whom they acknowledged the sovereigne power to reside would permit countenance and encourage all godly men of gifts in preaching downe Heresies errours Idolatry Popery c. many whereof had either beene formerly established by law or not permitted to be preached downe through the Prelates corruption contrary to the Law This is the best even all the Reformation which the Civill Magistrate as Civill has a capacity of compassing against all Heresies and errours which must necessarily be vanquished by the sword of the Spirit and cannot possibly be suppressed by carnall weapons or the Civill sword they may destroy the flesh but cannot properly be said to touch and worke upon the spirit Page 109. After a franticke infectious pestilentiall feaver-fit of rayling the likest that of Billingsgate you tell Mr. John Goodwin with much gravity forsooth but far more saucie ignorance that it was no lesse than high presumption for him being a meere Divine and a man altogether ignorant of or unskilfull in the ancient Rights and priviledges of our Parliament as his writings demonstrate and himselfe intimates page 5. to undertake and determine to judge of them so peremptorily and in such manner as he has done c. But how come you tro a meere Lawyer I wish you were good at that at any thing to take so much upon you in Divinity if Divinity and the knowledge of Parliamentary priviledges be inconsistent as you seeme to insinuate to pin the Gospel with its propagation and whole affaires upon Civill powers the greatest share or major part whereof which should both by your politie and divinity be submitted to is in the hands of Turkes of

Christian modesty and charity for the satisfaction of many troubled consciences 1 WHether have not Parliaments and Synods of England in times past established Popery And whether may they not possibly do so again hereafter 2 Whether in case a Parliament and Synod should set up Popery may they therein be disobeyed by the people If they may be disobeyed in one particular whether may they not upon the like grounds be disobeyed in another whether the people be not judge of the grounds for denying obedience to Parliament and Synod in such a case Whether the pretence of giving a Parliament and Synod power to establish Religion and yet reserve in our own hands a Prerogative of yeelding or denying obedience thereunto as we our selves thinke good be not an absolute contradiction and lastly Whether they that attribute such a power to Parliaments and Synods as they themselves will question and disobey when they thinke good doe not in effect weaken and quite enervate the power of Parliaments or else condemne themselves in censuring the Independents for withholding of obedience from Parliament and Synod in such things wherein they never gave or meant them to have power 3 If the whole Kingdome may deny obedience unto Popish Acts and Canons or upon any other the like just occasion and they themselves be judge whether the occasion be just or no whether may not Independents a part of the Kingdome only doe the like in all respects or whether ought they because a lesser part of the Kingdome to yeeld obedience to Popish Acts and Canons because a major part approve of and agree with a Parliament and Synod in establishing them 4 Whether would it not be an ungodly course for any people to hazard any thing at the disposall of others or to be carried by most voyces which may possibly if not more then probably be decided in such a manner as the yeelding obedience therunto would be burthensome to their consciences if not absolutely sinfull 5 Whether were it not an ungodly course for the whole Commons of a Kingdome so far differing in Religion as that they professe before hand that they dare not yeeld to one another upon perill of damnation to make choice of a Parliament and Synod with entring into Vow and Covenant to become afterwards all of that Religion whatsoever the Parliament and Synod should agree on whether it be not absurd for men to say they will be of such a Religion as shall be setled before they see evidence to convince them and whether it be in the power of man to be really of what Religion he will untill he see reason demonstration for it 6 If a representative State or Magistrate may make Laws for setting up a Religion or establishing what Church government they please whether have not the people the same power originally in themselves to assume again and put it in execution when they please and whether were this otherwise then to attribute unto a mixt multitude to the World if not absolutely as it is distinguished from the Saints in Scripture Joh. 15. 18 19. and 17. 6. 9. 11. 14. at least by most voices to make choice of a Religion Laws and Discipline wherewith the Saints houshold and Church of God must necessarily be governed 7 Suppose a Luther an and Calvinist or any others differing in opinion whether they may out of hypocrisie or implicitly submit and be conformable to one anothers discipline and doctrine whereof they doubt before they be convinced Whether have either of them an infallible way to convince the other and bring them over to be sincerely of their opinion before their understandings besatisfied if they have why doe they not put it in execution if they have not why should they be offended with one another if they continue differing 8 Whether opposing Gods people or their wayes be not a fighting against God whether it be not extreamest rashnesse if not absolute madnesse and presumption to attempt any thing which may possibly prove a fighting against God and whether any man in these dayes can have a fuller assurance in his owne conscience or give better evidence unto others that he doth not oppose the people of God whilest he opposes such as differ from him in opinion than Paul whilest he persecuted the Church Phil. 3 6. thought he ought to do many things contrary to the Name of Jesus of Nazareth Act. 26. 9 9 Which of the two parties may best be thought proud presumptuous or contentious whether Independents who seeke only to enjoy their owne consciences in all peaceablenesse and meeknesse without giving the least disturbance to such as differ from them in opinion or the Presbyterians who Haman like are never at rest within themselves untill they bring all others to be conformable unto them both for Discipline and Doctrine though to an equall judge they may probably be as erronious as other mens and possibly most superstitious and hereticall 10 If there be but one Christ and many Antichrists one true way and many false Whether doe not all men and women in generall and every one in particular run a greater hazard to have the truth with-held from them both in Discipline and Doctrine if all manner of opinions and religious worship but one were banished the Country where they live than if there were a toleration of them all 11 If a State may lawfully compell a Nation to be of this or that Religion as in Spaine Italy and England during the Bishops Reigne Whether is it possible for the people of such a Nation to be damned by submitting to such State Religions though false Whether are not such respective States bound in justice to be accountable for all the soules which doe miscarry by conforming unto such State Religions And whether were it discretion for any man to runne a hazard of so many soules though he might thereby gaine the Empire of the World 12 Whether are not all Religions alike nothing available to salvation to him that takes his Religion upon trust If we be obliged to try the Spirits to search the Scriptures and hold fast the truth whether must we not be fully perswaded thereof in our selves according to our owne reason and understanding Whether is there a necessity that the State Religion for the time in fashion must alwayes appeare to be the true one in every mans judgement who really endeavours and desires to have such an opinion of it so it might be with a good conscience And what Gospell warrant is there for Magistrates imprisoning fining banishing or so much as discountenancing any man for not beleeving or not doing that which he could not possibly beleeve or doe without sinning damnably FINIS