in them N. C. I know what you are going to infer But they will not yield that this Covenant was unwarrantable by the Laws of God and the Land and therefore they will not repent of it C. It was plainly against the Laws of the Land and those reasonable and good Laws from whence I conclude it was against the Laws of God which would have us obey humane Laws that do not contradict them and not combine together to destroy them N. C. They will never grant it was against the Laws of the Land and I think you cannot prove it C. Did they not Covenant to endeavour to preserve the Reformed Religion in the Church of Scotland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government N. C. Yes it s the first Barnch of the Covenant C. And did they not next of all Covenant to indeavour to reform Religion in these Kingdoms of England and Ireland in all Points according to the Examples of the best Reformed Churches N. C. Yes C. Then they were bound to reform us according to the Pattern of Scotland For that Church must needs be the best Reformed which needs no Reformation as it seems the Church of Scotland did not being to be preserved by them just as it was N. C. What of all this C. Then I will prove they bound themselves in an Oath against the Laws of the Land For our Laws make the King Supreme Governour over all persons and in all causes But the Presbyterial Government as it was in Scotland and was intended to be here though it allow the King to be Supreme Governour over all persons as they are his Subjects yet will not subject all Causes to his Government because Christ according to the Discipline is the only spiritual King and Governour over his Kirk As much as to say they are subject onely to Christ in some things N. C. This is onely a Collection which you make from several things compared together in which you may be deceived Sure they never intended to set up such a Government here C. That you may not be left therefore to my uncertain Reasonings as you will esteem them in this particular You may be satisfied about the Mind of the Assembly if you be at all acquainted with the History of the late Times By that I am informed they intended to bring the same Government among us that was in Scotland And Secondly they thought the Parliament was obliged to set it up by vertue of the Covenant When these two things are proved I believe you will be of my mind that they took an Oath against the Laws and therefore ought not to persist in it but repent of it N. C. I shall be glad to hear them proved C. You must know then that the Parliament declared for Presbyterial Government and passed most of the particulars brought them from the Assembly without any material alteration saving the point of Commissioners as they tell us in a Declaration of April 17. 1646. N. C. What 's the reason it was not set up C. Have patience and I will tell you These ugly Commissioners stood in the way which the Assembly would not admit of as the Parliament would not admit of their Arbitrary Government N. C. Why do you call it so C. The title of the Declaration tells you that the intention of it is among other things to secure the people against all Arbitrary Government viz. in the Church which they spoke of before But that you may be sure of it they let you know when they come to that part of it which concerns Church-Government that the Presbytery challeng'd an Arbitrary Power which they could not grant The reason was because they would have set up ten thousand Judicatories within the Kingdom which should have had a supreme Authority over us in many things And this was demanded in such a way as they proceed to tell us as is not consistent with the Fundamental Laws and Government of the same and by necessary consequence excluding the Power of the Parliament of England in the exercise of that Jurisdiction This was the very cause as they farther inform us why they had settled no Government since their sitting because they could not subject themselves and the People of the Land to so vast a power as the Presbytery challeng'd which they tell us a little after would have been for the Civil Magistrate to part with some of his Power out of his hands Now before we go any farther I pray tell me who was the supreme Civil Magistrate then but the KING And how will you excuse these men from going about to rob him of a part of his Power and wrest it out of his hands N. C. Sure they did not Covenant to do this C. We shall try that by and by But that you may better know how they meant to go to work and to over rule the Supreme Power in many Causes you must understand these things That it being resolved by both Houses that all persons guilty of notorious and scandalous Offences should be suspended from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper the Assembly likewise resolved that these two Powers lay in the Eldership or Presbytery and only in them First the Power of judging and decluring what are such notorious and scandalous offences for which persons guilty Power out of his hands which is contrary to the Law of God And therefore they ought not any longer to hold themselves bound by it but rather should repent as they advise others to do in that case To sum up the whole business An Oath that is not warranted by the Laws of God and the Land ought to be repented of Your Ministers took an Oath not warranted by the Laws of God and the Land but contrary to them Therefore they ought to repent of it The former Proposition is their own The latter is partly theirs and partly the Commons of England For your Ministers expounded the Covenant as it obliged them to set up the Presbytery in an absolute Power and the Commons declared the exercise of such a power to be against the Fundamental Laws of the Realm and the Authority of the Supreme Magistrate I might add but that you little regard that His MAJESTY in his Proclamation declared it an unwarrantable Oath October 9 1643. And therefore do you and they see whether the Conclusion do not unavoidably follow and make a good use of it I beseech you before it be too late N. C. As Paul said to Agrippa that he almost perswaded him to be a Christian so I must say to you that you almost perswade me to be a Conformist and come to Church C. I wish as S. Paul said then that you were not almost but altogether such as I am I mean that you would not only come thither but with such reverence and seriousness as becomes the Service of God But to come and sit or â—oll or look about or whisper and talk as many do methinks is as bad as staying
IMPRIMATUR Nov. 7 1668. Tho. Tomkyns Reverendissimo in Christo Patri ac Domino Dom. Gilb. Arch. Cantuar à Sacr. Dom. A Friendly Debate Betwixt two Neighbours The one A CONFORMIST The other A NON-CONFORMIST About several weighty matters Published for the benefit of this City by a Lover of it and of pure Religion Prov. 15.32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul but he that heareth reproof getteth under standing To the Reader Reader DO not throw away this little Book as soon as ever thou meetest with something that offends thee but sit down rather and consider upon what account thou art offended If it be onely because the Author contradicts thy Opinions and perhaps accuses them of folly thou hast cause to turn thy displeasure from him upon thy self for presuming so much of thy own infallibility which if thou wilt not pretend unto then read on further and consider whether he contradicts thee with reason or without and howsoever it prove thou wilt not repent thee of thy pains For if he reprove thy Opinions without reason thou wilt be more confirmed in them if with reason thou maist exchange them for better It is possible indeed that some things may seem to be expressed too tartly and severely and others too lightly and merrily but let not that put thee out of humour neither nor make the reason which is offered less considerable For the Author I can assure thee hath no gall in him nor was in any passion when he write these things but intended onely as naturally as he could on a sudden to express such Discourse as Neighbours are wont to have in their private conversation in which if there be nothing that is smart or pleasant they can scarce keep one another from sleeping He is very well aware under what great prejudices we all labour and considers how hard it is to dispossess an Opinion though false nay ridiculous which a man hath suck'd in with his mothers milk and which hath been impressed on him by education confirmed by custom much encouraged by the consent and practice of those with whom he daily converses and hath perhaps his complexion and natural temper to befriend it and incline him to it Vpon such considerations as these he cannot be angry with those against whom he writes but rather pities them and is sorry they consider not such things themselves and so repress that heat and passion wherewith they advance their own private late inventions against publick Decrees and ancient Constitutions One sort of men he confesses are apt a little to move his indignation who pretend to the greatest niceness of conscience and have handled the matter so as to b◠thought the most religious of all others and yet make no scruple to do those things continually which are utterly contrary to good conscience So I believe an understanding Heathen or Turk would resolve were he made judge in the case and had first their Principles and then their Practices laid before him Such the Author thinks deserve to be rebuked and if there be any thing spoken with sharpness in the ensuing Discourse it is when he hath to do with them Yet in that case he hath used due moderation not studying to vex men but onely to awaken and convince them For he is very sensible that when we go about to displace any Opinion and introduce another in its room we usually lose our labour if we either fail to propound our mind dexterously or use not such meekness as may shew we have a good will to those from whom we differ Where these are wanting instead of inviting men to receive a Truth we find they are commonly further alienated from it Now he hath some confidence he is not much defective in the first having taken care to express his mind clearly and in plain words and contrived his Discourse into the form of a Dialogue to make it more easily apprehended As for the Later he cannot but think that he hath done his duty and testified his kindness every where even to those against whom thou mayest think him most severe But if thou judgest otherwise then he earnestly beseeches thee to overlook it and pass it by as an inconsiderate and hasty expression and to weigh rather what Truth is here presented to thee than in what manner it is delivered In short If it had not been to fill up some vacant pages he had made almost as short a Preface as those words of the Son of Sirach according to which he expects the success of his labour Ecclus. 21.15 If a skilful man hear a wise word he will commend it and add unto it but as soon as one of no understanding heareth it it displeaseth him and he casteth it behind his back Examine all things and judge righteous judgment Octob. 20. 1668. A Table of the principal matters contained in this Discourse THe occasion of it pag. 1. All are not Christ's Ministers who pretend to it 2 3. Of powerful Preaching 4 5 15. Of spiritual Illumination 6 c. The great proof of Christian Religion is the Spirit 9 10. Of Spiritual and Logal Preaching 11 c. Of the necessity of Good works to our justification 13 14. Who are the most Soul searching Preachers 16 17 c. Vpon this occasion Mr. Watson's late Book of Repentance is a little examined 20 21 c. Mr. Bridges his Ten Sermons considered especially that about the Difference between New Testament spirit and Old Test spirit 25 26 c. By what means this whole Nation came to be over-run with folly 34 Mr. Bridges one of them that helps to continue and increase it 35 unto 40. Of Spiritual Preachers 40. c. Of applying Promises 43 44 c. Of Experimental Preachers 47 c. Foolish Application of Scripture 49 51. A Comparison between the discreet Conformists and the mon-conformists 54. Of the Seal that some pretend God hath given to their Ministry 55. Who are the most guilty of being Time-servers 57 c. The Annotations commonly ascribed to the Assembly men say nothing of Sacrilege 59 c. Several other instances of Men-pleasing 64. Of forsaking Principles 66 c. None more guilty then they that accuse others of it 68 unto 79. Of the calling of the present Ministers of our Church 79. Of praying by the Spirit 89 to 92. Pretence to it hath brought Religion into contempt 87 c. Concerning a Form of Prayer 93 c. Of the Common Prayer 97 c. That some things may be done concerning the Worship of God which he hath not expresly commanded 101 c. That the enjoyning things indifferent makes them not unlawful 104. All do not think our Forms of Prayer and other Orders unlawful who speak against them or suffer others to do so 110. Of Will worship 113. None more Superstitious then they who seem most afraid of it 117 c. The reason men are no more affected with a good Form of Prayer 120
same time that this was only commanded concerning that Countrey and that there is no proof can be made that there were any innocent Books there imploy'd in their Idol-worship No we conclude rather all were Superstitious and Idolatrous in themselves and such as could never be imployed in Divine Service It is true at last he comes to remember us that in the New Testament we read the Christian Converts burnt their Curious Books Act. 19.19 But what is this to the Precepts he promised to shew us given to the Israelites And what is this to the business of Prayer-Books Nay why did he not shew us the Innocence of these Books and prove that Conjuring was a very harmless Art N. C. I wish you would have done with this Book of his which I think in one sense is innocent enough and will do no harm among considering people C. I am content to make an end for I fear I have been too tedious But it was out of a desire to examine seriously whether there were such force as he conceives in this Engine to batter down all the Fortifications that they who preside in the Church or their Assistants can erect in defence of the abused Scandalous things as he calls them which with so much zeal we contend for viz. the Liturgy and Ceremonies They are his words in his Epistle N. C. He tells you a little after that he will not offer to impose his belief on others Let every body read and then do as he finds cause C. I commend his Ingenuity and Modesty only I wish his Zeal was a little less in this matter and that he would not think himself and others ingag'd to endeavour to the utmost of their power the Extirpation and abolishing of the Liturgy For what is this but to impose his belief upon us as much as he is able in his place Doth he only offer his Reasons who solicites and perswades and intreats men to promote his Design Doth he leave others to judge who ingages their Affections and stirs up their Passions as if the Cause were already decided according to his mind This it is to be zealous to advance a private Opinion He meant it 's like as he spoke when he told us in his Epistle that he expected and desired 〈◊〉 more but that we would candidly weigh th◠case but his zeal made him forget himself and earnestly beseech us to be up and doing as if judgment were already given on his side This I make no doubt was the thing that put him so much beside the Cushion as to make him magnifie the Purity of those Doctrines which in sober thoughts he saw were of pernicious consequence And I would willingly think it was nothing else that made him only pass his word that the Liturgy is one of the things that God would have laid aside without any Proof of it For whatsoever he or the Assembly have been pleased to say no body ever made an Idol of it or were guilty of adoring it These are but a kind of Conjuring Phrases and Magical words which make a great Sound and astonish the silly people but signifie nothing save only this that men care not what they say to serve their cause And therefore I hope you will not be afrighted by such Bug-bears but come and do your Duty to God and man both together in joyning with us in Common-Prayer N. C. I will consider it as I have told you more than once But I have had the less mind to come to it because after it is done your Minister prays so coldly himself C. That is he doth not put himself into a Sweat But are not his words lively and apt to warm the Hearts of those who attend to them N. C. Methinks not And beside his Sermons that follow are very dull and nothing comparable to ours C. Now you are got again to the Hole from whence I did drive you a good while agoe you run in a Circle of discourse and are returned thither where we first began But since I have followed your motions thus far I will ask you this question Why do you not rather think your self dull than him N. C. Because I am not dull in other places and yet was so at your Church C. You may be in the fault for all that For perhaps you was disaffected to his Person or to his method of handling things or you had a greater Kindness for some other and then though S. Paul himself should preach you would be apt to prefer that man before him N. C. No methinks his matter is dull and flat C. Why what did you hear him treat of N. C. I heard him preach about the necessity of Obedience to the Laws of Christ And there he told us how we must do as we would be done unto and love our Neighbours as our selves and forgive Injuries and make Restitution of ill-gotten Goods with a great many other such like things which every body knows already And yet he spent I know not well how many Sermons about these common matters C. Does every body know these things say you The greater shame then that they live not according to them I am afraid they are not sensible of the necessity of these things about which a man of any understanding and seriousness cannot well speak and be flat and dull I much suspect that you even set your self to sleep or suffered your thoughts to run to other matter or fell a reading in your Bible as I have seen some do when he begun to treat of such Arguments as these thinking that you was little concern'd in them N. C. I must confess part of what you say For when I come to Church I look not for Moral but Christian Doctrines C. How now Do you oppose Morality and Christianity Is not the former a part of the latter I mean doth not the Christian Religion teach us the highest Morality N. C. No I think it doth not meddle with it C. Then you talk of this as you do of many other things without understanding Pray what is Moral Doctrine N. C. Do you tell me if you please C. I always took it to be that Doctrine which teaches us how to regulate our manners that is to order and govern our actions or our whole Behaviour in this World Now I appeal to any man that reads the Gospel whether this be not the very design of it to teach us to live soberly righteously and godlily N. C. Is this morality C. Yes that it is And therefore I said that Christian Religion advances Morality to the greatest height because it gives us the best and most excellent Motives to live soberly righteously charitably and piously in this World N. C. For all this I think it were better if Jesus Christ were more preached C. Still I see you deceive your self and trouble the world with Phrases Doth not he preach Jesus Christ that preaches his Doctrine If you doubt of it you shall
Do you feel that they say true for instance when they tell you that our Saviour turn'd Water into Wine and that he raised Lazarus from the dead N. C. No I know these things otherways C. Then you must know the rest by the same means that you know these viz. by believing Eye-witnesses of these things who you find are persons worthy to be credited N. C. But I feel the Commands of Christ are exceeding good and agreeable to humane Nature which the Apostles have delivered to us C. That is you find it good to live soberly and peaceably to be charitable to others and to take up your own Cross with Contentedness and Patience N. C. Yes C. But may not these things be felt by Heathens as well as you And may not they by Experience commend the practice of these Vertues to us N. C. I think they have done it C. Then this Experience of the goodness of Christ's Commands is no proof of our Creed by which we are distinguished from Heathens No nor will your Experience prove to any man that Christ's Commands are excellent any farther than he believes that you say true when you tell him what trial you have made of the best kind of Life and that you are a person fit to judge of the Difference of things N. C. Methinks I feel that Jesus Christ is in the Heavens and in great Power and Glory there C. Whatsoever you feel in this matter it is the Effect of your belief not the Cause of it I mean you first believe that he is in Glory before you can feel any good hopes in your Soul of immortal Life And you believe his being in Glory upon good Reasons else you do not know but entertain your self with a pleasant Dream both of his Glory and yours And lastly whatever you feel it is no proof of the truth of the thing but only of the truth of your Belief It is to be proved otherwise that Christ reigns gloriously in the Heavens and is able to bring us into his everlasting Kingdom only your being so mightily affected with it proves that indeed you believe it But you had best look you have good Reasons for your Faith For all the Severities of the Religious men among the Turks prove likewise that they believe strongly in Mahomet though I hope if they quote their Experiences never so much you will not be a Disciple to their Prophet and hope he will take you by the hair of the head and pull you up to Heaven N. C. I find that you are able to talk more rationally than I can in these matters But yet I find likewise there is another kind of Spirit in our people than in yours For they delight more in Heavenly Discourse and are alwayes talking of Religion when they are together which argues they are not of so slight a Spirit as others who love to discourse of unprofitable things C. Do you and I talk frothily as your phrase is and spend our time in unprofitable Chat Is this Discourse earthly and not at all pertaining to Religion And deal sincerely with me do not you sometime when you are together pass the time away in speaking against Bishops and Common-Prayer and the Government Do you not know some that are ever complaining of the Times in which we live and saying the former Dayes were better than these And are the Reasons of this murmuring so Heavenly as you suppose Do they not say the Nation was in more Credit and had a better Reputation abroad and they a better Trade at home and such like things N. C. I cannot deny but I have heard some Professors talk thus But there are a great number that you shall scarce ever hear talking of any thing else but Heaven and Jesus Christ and the business of their Souls C. And such people there are in all Parties and Sects in the Christian World who perhaps are never awhit the better for that N. C. How irreligiously you talk C. Not at all For unless they take a true delight in God and in that Heavenly Discourse above all other things and unless they understand what they say and delight also to do God's will in all things I think they had as good be talking of or doing something else N. C. Can they possibly be better imploy'd C. Yes that they may For if they only tumble out a great many words and Phrases which they have learn'd they had better be Studying what the Religion of Jesus Christ is And if they talk of those matters meerly as it is a Duty and be not so heavenly-minded as that whensoever they have leisure it is the greatest joy that can be to be thinking or discoursing of them they will do this after a very bad fashion when some other good thing they might have done better as visited the Sick inquired after the Wants of the Poor or ordered some Parish-business And again unless they be very prudent and do not think they must needs draw the Company wherein they are who are ingag'd perhaps in other necessary Business to hear their discourse I think their room as we say would be better than their company or that it were better that they would hold their peace For if a man take himself to be bound in Conscience to be always speaking of these things as I doubt many do it is the effect of Superstition which makes Religion a great burthen to a man's self and others For whether he and the Company be disposed or no this he thinks is his Business which he often manages very dully and without any Taste thereby rendring Christianity Contemptible and making himself also still more flat and indisposed for all honest imployments All which considered I leave you to judge whether that man had not better have bestow'd his time otherways for then he might at the end of it have been good for something whereas now he is good for nothing at all but mopishly sits bewailing himself and complaining of the deadness of his heart N. C. Ought not a man to be always thinking of Heaven C. No He may and ought sometime to think of other things And he should do it without any Scruple not fearing that he is ill imploy'd when he doth not break God's Commands N. C. He may be meanly imploy'd C. That is he is but a Man and not yet come to the degree of an Angel N. C. But when others are recreating themselves as you call it ours are talking of Heaven C. If it be their choice and if they do not neglect any necessary Business nor censure others that do not as they do I have nothing to say against them But as I told you there are so many such like people in all Religions that you must not imagine this is a thing peculiar to yours And if they think they offend God if they do otherwise and if they condemn those that now and then innocently recreate themselves and sigh over them as
use of it N. C. Some think it is a sufficient cause to separate in that there are such sinful mixtures tolerated among you and that your Congregations are miscellaneous Companies of all Gatherings and all sorts are admitted even to Sacramental Communion C. That 's the very Objection which your Ministers and Elders saw framed against them by the Separatists And what they answer to them we return to you First That this Charge is not true the Rule of the Church of England being as full and strict for Church-Members that shall come to Communion as that of the Assembly there cited pag. 133. which is this That they must be visible Sainst such as being of age do profess Faith in Christ and obedience to Christ according to the Rules of Faith aud Life taught by Christ and his appostles Secondly Suppose there were some sinful Mixtures say they at our Sacraments yet we conceive this is not a sufficient ground of a Negative much less of a Positive Separation The Learned Author forementioned tells us that Corruption in Manners crept into a Church is not a sufficient cause of Separation from it This he proves from Math. 23.2 3. and he adds also this Reason for it Because in what Church soever there is Purity of Doctrine there God hath his Church though overwhelm'd with Scandals And therefore whosoever separates from such an Assembly separates from the place where God hath his Church which is rash and unwarrantable The Church of Corinth had such a profane Mixture at their Sacrament as we believe few if any of our Congregations can be charged withal and yet the Apostle doth not perswade the Godly party to separate much less to gather a Church out of a Church N. C. What do you tell me of the Doctrine of a Forreign Divine C. They have made it theirs by approving what he says in their Book And besides they tell you there were many Godly and Learned Non-conformists of the last Age that were perswaded in their Conscience they could not hold Communion with the Church of England in receiving the Sacrament kneeling without Sin yet did they not separate from her Indeed in that particular act they withdrew but yet so as that they held Communion with her in the rest being far from a Negative much more from a Positive Separation from her Nay some of them mind the words even then when our Churches were full of sinful Mixtures with great Zeal and Learning defended them so far as to write against those that did separate from them who these Good and Learned men were they tell you in the Margin Mr. Cartwright Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham Mr. Bradshaw Mr. Ball. N. C. Then we shall communicate with men in their sinâ— and we must not be led to that by the greatest Examples C. To prevent that they will advise you that if any Brother offend you you are not to separate from him for this is not the way to gain but to destroy his Soul but to tell him of it privately and in an orderly way to bring it to the Church And when you have done your Duty you have freed your Soul and may safely and comfortably communicate in that Church without Sin N. C. I perceive you are read in our Writers And trely you have now told me so much from them that I shall not have so hard an opinion of you as I had before And I hope this will preserve me from being guilty of the sin of Schism because the Nature of that consists in an open breach of Christian Love C. This will not serve your turn but you must come and joyn in Communion with us again For they tell you that as he who denies a Fundamental Article of the Faith is guilty of Heresie though he add not Obstinacy thereto to make him an Heretick So he that doth unwarrantably separate from the true Church is truly guilty of Schism though he add not Uncharitableness thereunto to denominate him a compleat Schismatick You may read the words if you will pag. 137. And afterward they tell you that to make a Rupture in the Body of Christ and to divide Church from Church and to set up Church against Church and to gather Churches out of true Churches and because we differ in some things therefore to hold Church-Communion in nothing this we think hath no warrant out of the word of God and will introduce all manner of confusion in Churches and Families and not onely disturb but in a little time destroy the power of Godliness Purity of Religion Peace of Christians and set open a wide Gap to bring in Atheism Popery Heresie and all manner of wickedness Thus they And how fast all this is a doing by your means who now will have no Communion with us in any thing because we differ in some things is apparent to all the world For the love of God and of the Church nay of your own Families consider of it in time and repent that so they may not be brought to utter Confusion but the Gap may be stopt which you have opened too wide already to Atheism Irreligion and all the rest of the Wickedness which comes powring in it self upon us Do not continue that Separation any longer which you have rashly begun lest you be found guilty of that very thing your selves which you condemned so much in others and profess is by all good men to be abhorred Read what I have now said over and over again and seriously lay it to heart lest your own Books be opened at the day of Judgement and Sentence be pronounced against you out of them Nay desire your Ministers to read it and to expound the reason to you why they should ssparate now more than Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham Mr. Ball and such like did heretofore Intreat them to let you know how they excuse thewselves from the guilt not only of withdrawing themselves from our Communion which they call Negative Schism but also of making an head against us and drawing themselves into a distinct and opposite Body and setting up a Church against a Church which they call Positive and Schism by way of Eminency Ask them which of the four Causes of Separation they alledge to make their Departures from us necessary What we have done that should make it unlawful for them to communicate with us or rather How we have separated our selves from Jesus Christ and made him disown us If they be not able to give you very good satisfaction in this and in all the rest I hope you see what you are to do according to their own Advice and Counsel N. C. I suppose they will say that they are persecuted which will justifie their separation C. I cannot imagine what they should pretend unless it be this But bid them shew you what hath befalen them that should deserve that name And likewise shew that the Persecution is grievous nay intolerable for else they have told you it will not warrant