Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	church_n	discipline_n	government_n	3,314	5	6.9877	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30650	A vindicaton of churches, commonly called Independent, or, A briefe answer to two books the one, intituled, Twelve considerable serious questions, touching church-government, the other, Independency examined, unmasked, refuted, &c. : both lately published by William Prinne ... / Henry Burton ...	Burton, Henry, 1578-1648.	1644 (1644)	Wing B6176; ESTC R20892	61,118	78

it selfe To be plaine therefore though I know you to be a very Heluo librorum of vast indefatigable reading and to have a stomack proportionable of a strong digestion yet give me leave to tell you as my loving and beloved friend and brother that the subject you here deale with is not of so easie a digestion as that subitane or sudden apprehensions thereof may be w●ll said to be digested Strong meats you know taken downe liberally into the stomack doe require the longer time for a kindly digestion And a sudden digestion is apt to leave many indigested crud●●ies ingendring malignant humours in the body You digest your apprehensions into considerable Questions as you call them to be solemnly debated by sober minds but passing along brother I find your Questions turned into your owne resolutions so as in stead of debating them by sober minded men you forestall them and tell us that these Independents as you style them are guilty of Arrogancy Schisme Contumacy and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences in case they shall not submit to such a publick Church-Government Rites Discipline as a Synod and Parliament shall conceive most consonant to Gods Word c. And all along your Queries are so digested by you as that they cast up a very ill sent if not rather a judiciall sentence against those Churches which not honoris causa you name Independents But we shall answer to the particulars as they come in order Thus much of your Proeme or Preface To your first Question Before I punctually answer this and so the rest of your Questions let me premise this as an {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which I must demand of you a due to my Profession that forasmuch as you are a learned Lawyer and able to speake much of Lawes and Customes of Nations and Churches and my selfe am a professor of Divinitie the Rules and Principles whereof are all of them laid downe in the Scripture unto which alone all Questions about Faith and Religion are so reducible and finally determinable as who so denieth this denieth the faith and is not to be disputed with as a denier of Principles therefore I require of you as a Christian brother to joyne issue with me in this point that all your Questions may be resolved by cleare Scriptures and reason evidently deduced from them and this with all brevitie and perspicuitie Now to your first question the summe whereof is Whether every severall Nation Republick and Nationall Church hath not under the Gospell a * liberty and latitude left them to chuse and settle such an orderly forme of Church-government Discipline and Ecclesiasticall Rites as is most suteable to their particular Civill government lawes manners customes being not repugnant to the word of God This being as I conceive a generally received truth among all Protestant Churches And whether some things in all Church-governments Discipline Ceremonies whatsoever are not and must not be left to humane prudence for which there is no direct precept nor pattern in sacred writ Which truth is assented to by all parties Churches whatsoever in theory or practice This is the substance of your first Question To which I answer And first to your quotation of the Harmony I will answer one for all Sect. 16. August Confessio 4. Traditiones de ●●riis c. We condemne not Traditions of Holy-dayes of the Lords day of the Nativity of Easter and the rest for a politick end Here you see they put the observation of the Lords day among humane Traditions which I suppose you doe not approve Again they allow onely such observations as God by the Morall Law and the voyce of Nature it selfe commandeth And thirdly That humane rites be not imposed Ne conscientiae onerentur That mens consciences bee not burthened And in a word To shape Religion in point of church-Church-government Discipline Ceremonies to every Nation Republick Nationall Church and to Civill Government Lawes Manners Customes and so to humane Prudence as you say what is it but to shape a coat for the Moone Whereas the Scripture holds forth unto us but onely one forme of Church-government and Discipline which ought not to be altered according to the diversitie of humane Lawes and Customes in all Kingdomes and Common-weales as you affirme And whereas you make a proviso Alwayes provided every thing bee consonant and no way repugnant to the word of God To what purpose is this when the very liberty you give of altering Church-government and Discipline as may be sutable to humane Laws and Customes is it self repugnant and no way consonant to the word of God as we shall shew by and by This is transformare Ecclesiam in humanam politiam to transforme the Church into a humane Politie * Hae imaginationes omnibus aetatibus inde usque ab initio mundi nocuerunt Ecclesiae semper nocebunt These imaginations or fancies have in all ages from the beginning of the world hurt the Church and will alwayes hu●t Thus the Harmony * Now brother whereas you seem to challenge us infallibly to evidence by any Gospel Text that Christ hath peremptorily prescribed one and the self-same form of Ecclesiasticall government Discipline Rites to all Nations Churches in all particulars from which they may in no case vary under pain of mortall sin schisme or being no true Churches of Christ with whom good Christians may not safely communicate First what evidence from Scripture can you bring why it should not necessarily be so You would seeme to make this a ground why Church-government Discipline Rites should be alterable according to the severall laws and customes of severall Nations Because say you Christ enjoyned the preaching of the Gospel to all Nations and People whatsoever who have their severall established defferent formes of Civill government Laws Manners Rules and Customes sutable to their respective dispositions Climes Republicks By this reason you might argue that therefore the Gospel it self may be preached variously according to the variation of the climate and if not so then say I neither is the Church-government and Discipline to be varied according to the diversity of Nations Laws Customes Climates For brother the Church-government and Discipline now in the time of the Gospel is a part of the Gospel as being the Gospel-government and Discipline of the Evan 〈…〉 l Churches And brother why should you think that Christ now under the Gospel or New Testament hath ●e●t a greater liberty to men to alter that form of Church-government and Discipline which in the New Testament is laid down then he did in the Old Testament under the Leviticall Law What a strict charge did this Law-maker give to Moses See saith he that thou do all things according to the pattern shewed thee in the Mount He must not vary one pin * But some will say When the Tribes of Israel were reduced under a kingly

government as in Davids time the service of God was in greater state and externall pomp when the Temple was built then it was before in the Tabernacle whereby it may appear that there was a liberty left to David to alter the form of worship so as was sutable to the Regall state But I answer Here was no liberty left to man to alter any thing in the worship of God or in the Church-government For God was so exact in this that he would not leave it to David himself though both a King and a Prophet and a man after Gods own heart to set up what worship he pleased in the Temple but God gave him an exact patterne of all and that not onely by his Spirit but in writing that he might neither adde nor omit in the least tittle 1 Chron. 28. And you know it was never left to the Kings of Judah to do the least thing in point of Reformation but onely to see that the Priests do all strictly not any thing as seemed good to them but all according to the precise rule of the Law 2 Chron. 31. Now was the great Law-giver so strict under the old Testament and is he grown more remisse under the New In Ezekiels vision of the Temple or Church in the time of the Gospel Ezek. 43. 10 11. wee reade of a patterne form fashion of everie particular thing of the House of God which is his Church exactly set down and measured by Gods own speciall direction Or are men more wise and more faithfull now then David was that Christ should trust every Nation with such a liberty as this to alter and diversifie Church-government and Discipline so as might be most agreeable to this or that Kingdoms Common-weales Countreys custome commodity conveniencie And as for your Nationall Church here mentioned we shall take a just measure of it when we come to your ninth Question And whereas you quote in the Margine 1 Cor. 14. 40. 11. 34. on which you ground your liberty to form your Church-government Discipline sutably to each particular Civill government Alas brother these very Scriptures our Prelates abused to maintain their unlimited liberty of setting up their rites and ceremonies as sutable to the Civil government which absurdity I have fully refelled in my Reply to Canterburies Relation Whereas the Apostle there exhorteth that all things be done decently and in order according to those rules they had received of him to which agreeth the other place alledged by you Other things will I set in order when I come as Titus 1. 5. He left Titus in Crete that he might set in order the things that remained but all according to the Apostles direction for Church-government and choice of Officers And we should have a mad world of it if civill States in severall Countreys should have liberty to frame Church-government and Discipline as should most sute with their particular conditions This liberty is that which both Ecclesiasticall and Civill States usurping turned the spirituall Kingdom of Christ over Consciences and Churches into a temporal and secular Kingdom or rather indeed an Anti-christian Tyranny or Hierarchy so as by this means it came to passe that the second Beast ascending out of the earth to wit the Pope Revel. 13. 11. commands the inhabitants of the earth to make an image that is to set up a forme of Religion and church-Church-government sutable to the Image of the first Beast to wit the Imperiall State of Rome And thus came to be erected the Hierarchicall Church-government in all pomp and points sutable with the Romane Monarchy So dangerous is that libertie which brings such bondage According to that Licentia sumus omnes deteriores this brings not liberty but licentiousnesse Your second Question is Whether if any Kingdome or Nation shall by a Nationall Councell Synod and Parliament upon serious debate elect such a publick Church-government Rites Discipline as they conceive to be most consonant to Gods Word to the Laws Government under which they live and manners of their people and then settle them by a generall Law all particular Churches members of that Kingdome and Nation be not therefore actually obliged in point of * conscience and Christianity readily to submit thereto and no wayes to seek an exemption from it under pain of being guilty of arrogancie schisme contumacie and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences I answer That is Whether the Kingdome and Nation of England c. The summe is you would here make way for a politicall State Church-government or a mixt Church-government partly according to Gods word and partly to the Laws and government under which we live and partly to the manners of the people Humano capiti cervicem jungere equinam Or populout placerent c. Truly brother your very question is hereticall you must pardon the expression which otherwise would not come home to the full truth And your word Elect imports no lesse For Elect taken in that sense as you here apply it to set up a form of Religion of church-Church-government and Discipline with Rites and ceremonies sutable to the Laws and customes of a State and manners of the people and AS MEN CONCEIVE is of the same signification with {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which signifieth a taking up an heresie upon humane election or as you say As they conceive For you say not Such a Church-government c. as is most consonant to Gods word but such as they conceive to be most consonant So as you hang your Church-government upon mens conceit or opinion of consonancy with Gods word and not upon a reall and essentiall consonancy Just like the Prelate of Canterbury who in his Relation hangs the credit of the Scripture upon the Author and the opinion we have saith he of his sufficiency Which I have noted in my Reply But thus you open a wide sluce to let in an ocean of inundation of all sorts of Religion into all parts of the vvorld vvhen every Religion shall be measured by the line of mans conception what men CONCEIVE agreeable to Gods word Thus might Henry 4. the late French King to make his way the easier to the Crown through so many difficulties apostatize from the Protestant Religion and turn to Popery as conceiving it sutable to the word of God to comply with the State of France and the manners of the people for the establishing of his kingdome as he conceived though he was deceived by becoming himself a Popish King And so Jeroboam with his Counsell might CONCEIVE it agreeable enough to Gods word to set up his Calves most sutable to the new laws and customes of that State and to the manners of the people who are apt enough to embrace idolatry and superstition as Ephraim willingly walked after the commandment Hos. 5. 11. And so in the rest Now that is an heresie which is an error conceived and maintained against the word of God

serve for Christ will not have his people to be wandring sheep when they may have a fold nor to be individua vaga when they may be reduced to order The ninth Interrogatory This Interrogatory lays a charge upon Independents for refusing to admit to the Lords Supper such as are not notoriously scandalous nor grossely ignorant but professe repentance c. which you say is a very uncharitable arrogant yea unchristian practise contrary to Christs own example in admitting Iudas to the Lords Supper Also to that of Paul 1 Cor. 11. you calling it also a transcendent straine of tyrannicall usurpation over soules and consciences and Gods Ordinances worse then our most domineering Lordly Prelates c. yea Lording over Christ himselfe and more then ever the Apostles did but onely by their extraordinary calling c. I answer in one word omitting your copious aggravations and sharp censures that we look further then to a generall profession and conversation namely to their faith in Christ that it be sound intire and whole and namely whether they hold him to be as the onely Prophet and High Priest so the onely Prince of his People the onely Lord and Lawgiver to every mans conscience and over every Congregation or Church of his Saints If they thus acknowledge not Christs kingly office as well as his other offices we doe not we dare not receive them And what have they to do with the seales that refuse by covenant to own Christ for their King As for Judas he received the sop not the supper for after the sop he went out * immediately saith John So as it appeares the other Evangelists relate some other passages by a hysteron proteron as is not unusuall in Scripture story And none of them saith that he received the Supper And suppose ●e did the Churches Censure had not yet past upon him onely John by a secret signe knew he was to be the traytor For that of the Apostle 1 Cor. 11. 28. that was a true Church though now disordered and the Apostle refers the redressing of their abuses to themselves The case is otherwise here so as all your accumulated calumniations fall to ground And concerning the Apostles extraordinary calling if we must expect the like calling we must not in the meane time admit of any either to Baptisme or to the Lords Supper neither should there be any gathering of Churches at all as some from hence doe gather Besides what shall the authority be that Luther gathered the Churches by and those that followed him and what lawfull gathering then have the Reformed Churches For your marginall note of Moses David Solomon about setling Religion by Gods own direction herein you come home to that I said before alledged against your unlimited law But in that you now restraine by their example all church-Church-government to the Civil Magistrates you must make it out by holding close to the rule that is To settle Religion by Gods own direction as you here confesse and not to elect erect a forme of Religion and church-Church-government such as they shall conceive sutable c. as before you told us And Moses David Solomon were all types of Christ who put an end to all such And while you there exclude the Priests from having any thing to doe in Reforming or advising What will the Assembly say to you But they may advise you will say But the Priests might do nothing but according to Gods prescript law no more then Moses David Solomon And if the Priests as you say had no ruling votes then by this reckoning what votes do you allow the Assembly-men in their mixt Committees with the members of Parliament or in the Assembly it selfe Reconcile these I pray you The tenth Interrogatory This Interrogatory questions or rather as all the rest concludes that that Text Mat. 18. 15 16 17. is not meant of any Ecclesiasticall censure as of Excommunication but onely of the civill Court of Justice Brother if you did speake hereas a Divine and not meerly as a lawyer you would not have against the judgment of most learned Divines ancient and modern and not Papists c. so interpreted this place And what speak I of Divines The Text it selfe is its own clearest Interpreter For it is immediatly added v. 18. Verily I say unto you whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall bee loosed in heaven Which is without controversie spoken of Church-censure or of the power of the Keyes in exercising Church-discipline as that Matth. 16. 19 is spoken of doctrine as the learned Calvin well observeth So as this very context cleareth the former to bee meant of Church-censure as it was among the Jewes You alledge on the contrary that learned Lawyer whom wee all honour for his learning Good brother I could wish that all this zeale of yours against Independents might not arise from any jealousie as if Church-censures should prejudicate or trench upon your pleadings at the Barre of civill justice Farre be it that we should have our motion beyond our own Spheare Content your self with your own Orb and we shall confine our selves to ours I dare warrant you Again to what purpose do you urge this interpretation of this Text against us Do not all the Presbyterians expound it so And if this Text which is made the great pillar of Presbyterian excommunication be taken off you leave no more to a Classis then we scil. to consult and advise And with this foot you have dashed all the milk you gave them The eleventh Interrogatory This Interrogatory is to perswadeus that in that Assembly or Evangelicall Synod as you call it Acts 15. the Apostles voted not as they were Apostles infallibly guided by the holy Ghost but rather as they were in their ordinary capacitie as Elders and chiefe members of it Whereupon producing your six reasons for it you peremptorily conclude that this is an undeniable Scripture-authority for the lawfulnesse use of Parliaments Councels Synods under the Gospel upon all like necessary occasions and for their power to determine controversies of Religion to make Canons in things necessary for the Churches peace and concernment maugre all evasions exceptions of Independents to elude it But let us examine your six reasons why the Apostles sate not as Apostles but as ordinary Elders c. Where first we lay this ground for the contrary scil. that they sate as Apostles because not ordinary Elders as Elders can say It seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us But the Apostles as Apostles might say so because in any doctrinall point they had the promise of the Spirit to bee led into all truth as upon whom the Church was to bee built Eph. 2. 20. Secondly if they sate as ordinary Elders then their decrees did no further bind then as they might appeare to agree with Scripture otherwise Elders as Elders may bind the conscience let the decree bee

Church-government we doe as much in effect as argue Every man in his Infancy is borne destitute of Religion c. Ergo he ought to continue so when he is growne a man We dare goe no further then the Scripture leads us therefore we are a company of Infants Good brother call in these extravagants 2. We say the Churches were as perfect then as ever since they had all Ordinances the most eminent Officers the most large gifts c. and as many in a place called to the Faith as can be shewen in any one place since to have come in voluntarily to the Gospell Act. 8. 10. 12. Chap. 21. 20. The tenth Question This Question is reduced thus Such as cannot produce any one solid reason why they ought not in point of conscience willingly submit to a Presbyteriall Government in case it shall be established among us by the generall consent of the Synod and Parliament as most consonant to Gods Word the Lawes Government of our Realme ought to be reputed to be in a high degree of Obstinacy Singularitie Arrogancy self-ends and peremptory Schisme But Independents cannot produce any one solid reason why they ought not so to doe as aforesaid Therefore Independents ought to be reputed to be in a high degree of Obstinacy Singularity Arrogancy self-ends and peremptory Schisme Now truly brother a heavie charge you lay upon those poore creatures you doe so becall Independents As 1. of Obstinacy If that be obstinacy against mens consciences not to yield blind obedience to mens commands in point of Religion 2. Of singularity If that be singularity for a few to enter in at the strait gate and to walk in at the narrow way If that be singularity to doe that which the multitude will not doe to ●o●ne under the government of Christs Kingdome in the Government of our consciences and of his Churches which is a Principle you your selfe in termes cannot dare not deny 3. Of Arrogancy If that be Arrogancy for one Church not to exalt it selfe over another or for Pastors not to Lord it over their flocks 4. Of selfe-ends If that be self seeking which if any other is a self-denying and a taking up of our crosse dayly as Malefactors ready to be crucified as without which resolution wee cannot follow Christ If that be selfe-seeking to strip our selves of the preferments and favours of the world to be exposed naked to the reproach of all to be accounted the out-casts of the world and the off-scouring of all things as at this day And lastly Of peremptory schisme If that be schisme whereby we ought to separate our selves from all doctrines contrary to what is delivered Rom. 16 17. and so farre as is possible from all the ●udiments of the world from the Ordinances of men which are not a●ter Christ that so wee might adhere to him and walke in him being taught by him as the t●●th is in Iesus But ●o● that these Independents should undergoe all these {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} hard speeckes and yet not to be able to shew one solid rason for it surely then a fools cap and a bell were fittest for them But I hope brother if you have but read hitherto and well weighed in a just ballance the many reasons we have already given you perhaps in some of them at least if not in all you will find something that may challenge the title of solid in your clearer and more solid judgment Now to your Argument First of all I might deny the necessity of the consequence of your Proposition For it is not necessary that every truth should cease to be truth because every one cannot shew a solid reason for it The fire hath an essentiall form and yet no man can find it ou● It burneth yet none can shew a solid reason why The Martyrs some of them professed they could not dispute for that truth they held but say they we can dye for it And what if that Church-government which your silly Independents hold be a truth and yet some of them not able to shew one solid reason for it Must it therefore not bee a truth As the Apostle saith What if some did not beleeve Shall their unbeleefe make the saith of God without effect But I flatly deny your Assumption and affirme that your Independents both have and doe and can produce many solid Reasons why they may not ought not in point of Conscience willingly submit to such a Presbiteriall Government as you prescribe because framed by the generall consent of a Synod and Parliament conc●●ved by them as consonant to Gods Word the Lawes and Government of our Realme One Reason is Consonant to Gods Word and conforme to the Lawes of this or any other Realme cannot stand together as before is shewed And the reason hereof is because Christs Kingdome is so transcendent so absolute distinct Independent if you will as it is not obliged to conforme and stoop to humane lawes and peoples manners as you put a necessity upon it A second Reason because you require obedience to that which men shall conceive consonant to Gods VVord c. Touched also before and now againe to put you in mind And therefore upon this ground we ought not in point of conscience to subject and captivate our saith to mens opinions A third Reason why we may not doe it is because you require absolute obedience to the generall consent of Assembly and Parliament Now wee dare not pin our faith upon generalitie of mens opinions The generality of the votes of the Jewes State carried it away to crucifie their King If the whole world might vote this day the generality would be against Christ as hee is indeed the onely Anoyn●ed King Priest and Prophet What if the generality vote amisse while yet they may conceive all to bee right because consonant to what they most ●ffect No though orthodox and godly as was shewed before in the instance of Paphnutius in the Councell of Nice A fourth Reason Because we acknowledge Christ alone to be Lord of our Conscience and no power of men on earth herein to be joyned with him Harm. Confess sect. 11. The Magistrate rules the body not the minde And therefore we dare not subjucate our conscience to humane lawes customes and manners as to Gods Word with which you doe so equally yoake them So as wee answer you with the Apostles when all the syn●dri●n of the Iewish State with one generall voyce interd●cted them from preaching in Christs Name Whether it be equall in the sight of God to o●ey you rather then God judge ye A ●●●●● Reason Because the Holy Ghost by the Apostle expresly condemns all humane Ordinances in matters of faith and Religion whereof church-Church-government is a branch and a doct●inall part so as mans law therein may not bind the conscience As Col. 2. from verse 8. to the end of the Chapter A sixth