new proverbiall Sentences viz. a. Classicall Presbyterie is 13. Bishops O witty and weighty Sentence if any man understood it worthy only such an Ecclesiastes as himself to be Register of What praise merite ye not both Vunlo tu dignus ille In the the end of this sect he giveth out his metaphorical judgement to grinde the Idol of half Reformation to powder and yet professeth that he will not or which a man would rather beleeve cannot tell what it is O how ridiculous a Judge is this without judgement Only this I will say that 1. if it be Episcopacy as this new Master of Sentences C.C. say 2. if an Idol that must be grinded into powder as M.S. saith and 3. if Episcopal Government must be extirpated as the Covenant saith and as we all in swearing the Covenant say sure then the Scots are come in upon very worshipfull termes to assist the Independents viz. upon this Condition that when they have fought for them they shall extirpate them and grinde them all into powder Is not this a very quick Independent conception and yet notwithstanding all this which is worthy the noting these good men in taking the Covenant have sworn the preservation of the reformed Religion in the Church of Scotland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government i.e. according to their judgement good Prelacy or Episcopacy jura perjura And here like a little Pope he telleth us that all Churches generally purtly by Tyranny and partly by security are grown so corrupt that to apologise for a through Reformation seems to reprove all and so all will be offended None it seems shall be reformed unless they become Independent so that they and they alone may vaunt themselves Et nos ergo manum ferulae subduximus nos Consilium dedimus Syllae To his 4. Sect. I maintain that Independents dissent from all Christian Churches since no Christian Church holds it selfe Independent but yours and whether they be any Churches that are not Protestant we shall see in a particular Question howbeit it be an untruth that ever I said that Papists were Christian Churches He and his fellows doe well to dissent from Papists but not in dependency His Observations are false where he sayes that we run to the Popish markes of visibility succession and universality and I have refuted this calumny in my Answer to C.C. When I argue from visibility and number I doe as the Apostle doth in bringing many visible Saints as a great number of witnesses of our Doctrine Heb. 11. and not as Essentiall markes of our Church P. 10. Because I say that the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers are but men as I am and that they may erre out of this hee inferreth that I thinke I have more knowledge then they since they are not yet condemned by the Assembly Answ I deny the consequence for by the same reason every particular man that condemneth Anabaptisme and other Schismes and Heresies before they be condemned by the Synod should thinke themselves learneder then they are But is it such a crime to say that they are but men that may erre I pray you sir if ye be any other thing then men what are ye if ye be men who pretend ye cannot erre you must either be Sancta Mater Ecclesia Romana or els lead by Anabaptisticall Enthusiasines as with an ignis fatuus And pretend ye that by reason of your great learning ye are priviledged from errour I tell thee man that amongst the very Angels Lucifer and amongst men Adam in the state of integrity and since the Fall Achitophel and Salomon erred and yet every one of them were learneder then ye all I hope there is no man maketh the least question but the meanest of them was learneder then any of you yea then you all in cumulo And therefore vaunt not so much of your learning No learning but visio beatifica which ye want can priviledge a man from errour according to Schoole-men P. 11. Sect. 1. I have answer'd it is no Popish Argument when I oppose so great a number of Witnesses unto him for then the Apostles Argument Heb. 11. should be Popish what is thy mopish argument I know not for I never read mopish in the Index of my Bible nor amongst the termes of Divinity or Philosophy whether it be an injury or not I know not and care as little 2. It is an untruth to say that I would conjure him to yeeld any thing upon plurality of voyces for I have learned of some of his own party that they are no wayes minded upon plurality of voyces to submit themselves unto the venerable Assembly of Divines neither can it well agree with the independent Spirits of their Divinity that the spirits of Prophets be subject to Prophets They will that all be subject unto them Sect. 4. Neither are his 4. silly Arguments which are but one drawn up ab Exemplo of notorious Sinners Malignants Papists and Prelates who argue from the multitude of those of their way to the verity and equity of it any thing to the purpose First we cite but a number of reformed Divines and reformed Churches which hee acknowledges with us to be such so does not he of his Examples 2. And if I have erred in this wherefore did the Apologists shew me the way in citing the Examples of those of N.E. c 3. My Argument concludeth ad Hominem since they argue so 4. I ground not my selfe on this Argument alone but on a great number of others in my book whereuuto hee answers not nor can answer P. 17. Sect. 1. What he tells us of the number of their Churches they are but Churches of Sectaries and Schismaticall since they have cut off themselves and are separated from all Protestant Churches union and communion as I have often-times declared and I speak not of such Churches Sect. 3. He sayes that W.R. condemns the Apologists for agreeing with the Churches of N.E. and A.S. condemneth them for dissenting from them He should have done well to have coted the places of our Books and to have told at the same time in what points we condemne them in their consent and dissent for W.R. may condemne them for their consent in one thing and A.S. for their dissent in another If I condemne them for any dissent I may safely swear that either I have read it in their Books or heard it of Independents themselves What I say p. 17. sect 4. I say it again in my conscience that I verily beleeve that Independency cannot but prove the root of all Schismes and Heresies yea I adde that by consequence it is much worse then Popery And all this I have sufficiently proved in my Book whereunto he answers nothing And whereas he sayes I would do well to confer with some of them I write against I had thought I had sufficiently declared my readiness in that kind formerly and I again now declare unto you Sir in particular that I
Zerubbabel to Sanballat and Tobiah OR The First Part of the DVPLY TO M.S. alias Two Brethren BY ADAM STEVART Whereunto is added The Iudgement of the Reformed Churches of France Switzerland Geneva c. Concerning INDEPENDANTS who condemne them with an unanimous consent Published by DAVID STEUART EZRA 4.1 2 3. The Adversaries of Judah came to Zerubbabel and to the chiefe of the fathers and said unto them Let us build with you for we seek your God as ye do and we do sacrifice unto him since the dayes of Esarhaddon king of Assur which brought us up hither But Zerubbabel and Jeshua and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel said unto them You have nothing to do with us to build an house unto our God but we our selves together will build unto the Lord God of Israel March 17. 1644. Imprimatur JA CRANFORD London Printed for Iohn Field and are to be sold at his house upon Addle-hill neer Baynards-Castle 1645. To their EXCELLENCIES The Lord William Boreel Lord of Duynbeck chiefe Syndicke and Counceller of Amsterdam The Lord John de Reede Lord of Reinswond Deputy in Ordinary in the Assembly of the States Generall of the united Provinces for the Province of Utrecht The Lord Albert Joachimi Lord of Oostende in Oedekenskercke Secretary for the Republick of Ter-Goes Lords Ambassadours of the High and Mighty Lords the States Generall of the united Provinces of the Netherlands THe World happily will conceive that Personages so Noble and Eminent for Place and Employment are much too High to be solicited to undertake for or be God-Fathers to a Childe of so mean a Birth and quality as is this that now presents it self unto Your Excellencies for that purpose Every one will be ready to say that I in making choice of Your Honourable Names for Protection of this Treatise have erected too stately and augustuous a Portall for so low and mean a Building as mine is It may not be denied but that such a construction may very justly be made of my enterprise if either the Authors inferior quality and condition or the frame and structure of his work should be strictly eyed and regarded But on the other side if the matter and end of it be well taken into consideration scarce any man can think other then that it is most worthy Your Patronage as that that hath no other aime save only the glory of God the Edification of the Church the Vindication of the Truth against the illusions of Sectaries and Novelists and the reduction to the bosome of the Church of such as are strayed from it Now what can there be more sutable and fitting for Children and Servants of the great God such as as You are then that which makes for the advancement of his Glory What can there be more proper for such as are Members yea Nursing-Fathers of the Church then that which tends to the gathering and Uniting together of the Members of her Body What can there be more worthy such Eminent Personages professing the true Religion then that which is for the defence of the truth of such opinions as are Orthodox What can there be more corresponding with the duty of Chistian Magistrates then to that which is intended for the reduction of such as are strayed to the Sheepfold of the great Shepherd of our Souls and that They should assist the Work by their Politicall Authority whilst the Church contributes which is all she can do her best Reasons for their conviction I have further Grounds and Motives for the Dedication of this Treatise to Your Excellencies to wit For that You represent here the Persons of the High and Mighty States of the United Provinces some of whose Territories and Estates are infected with this Venome Howbeit God be thanked it gaines not ground so fast there as here nor the Gangreen proves hitherto so dangerous Concerns it not us therefore being infested with the same Malady and Disease the one as the other that we should testifie our mutuall sense and apprehension thereof and that we should make it appear to all the World that however we are divided in Body we are yet notwithstanding strongly united in Heart as also in an Harmony of Opinions You labour likewise how You may Establish here a Peace both in Church and State and this Treatise is a good Means conducing to the former of these You endevour to procure a Generall Councell and this Treatise maintaines the equity and proves the necessity of it But yet there is one Reason more which more particularly obliges me to present this Treatise to Your Excellencies and it is such as I may not at any hand passe over without incurring the Crime of highest Ingratitude Which is Most Excellent Lords That great Honour Your Famous University of Leyden the very Athens of our Age hath put upon me in vouchsafing me so honorable a Call to be one of its Members Truly to this Head give me leave to say I cannot sufficiently admire Your great love to good Letters and Your unparallel'd care for the advancing of them so as it seems that in Your Provinces and in them alone they flourish and shew themselves in their perfect Lustre and Beauty For this purpose You from time to time make choice and Election of the most Famous men of all Europe Notwithstanding that You have very able men of your own as though You meant to gather into one Place all the most radiant Stars in the Firmament so as You despoil all other Kingdoms of the fairest flowers of their Crowns and with a kinde of sweet violence do as it were draw their Eyes out of their Heads and so quite darken and eclipse their Lustre and shine I say not this that I would be thought to rank my self in the number of those Great and Eminent Personages I know well that there are some Stars that shine by their own light That there are others again that shew not themselves but by a borrowed light But I will not enlarge my discourse upon Your Praises nor undertake to describe at large Your Heroick Vertues for this is not the place for it and it hath already been done by far better Pens then mine is I should by such an untertaking fear to sully the brightnesse of their Lustre and to draw a cloud over their Orient and vivid Colours And if I should go about it I should at the same time resolve to imitate that Excellent Painter who when he had done all that his Art enabled him to do for the drawing of an exquisite Pourtaicture and had set out its beauty with the most lively colours he could devise drew a curtain over it mistrusting the goodnesse of his Workmanship and intimating thereby that there was much more to be conceived of the Peece then he was able to expresse Notwithstanding I cannot tell how to contain my self but I must take notice of Your great Actions and Your many Noble Atchievements by Arms How
You were They that first oppos'd Your selves to the Tyranny of the proud Spanyard and that first of all others stayed the violent course of his Conquests that like an impetuous Torrent was wont to bear down all before him So as from a very meane and low beginning of a suddain He was become so excessively great by possessing himself of the most commodious and considerable Estates of the World as that he was come to reckon his Crowns by Hundreds and Thousands Yet You that were but the least part of His Estates and that were accompted no better then Beggars Gueux in comparison of those vast Treasures that He drew from Peru You I say were They that first blunted the edge of His Conquests and knapt in sunder the Bonds wherewith he would have enslav'd You setting Free and at Liberty together with Your selves multitudes of others whom He out of an insatiable Appetite not knowing how to set limits or bounds to his over-swelling Ambition had fully purposed to make his Vassalls Moreover You constrained him though much against stomack to acknowledge You for Soveraigns such as depended not at all upon upon His Jurisdiction And not contenting Your selves with all this You went and found him out in his own Hereditary Estates and pursued Him with fire and sword even to his own doores Yea You Traversed God knows how many Seas as wel towards the East as the West setting at liberty those poor Barbarians over whose Bodies he exercised so many cruell and new devised Tyrannies and all this under the pretext of a false Donation by the Bishop of Rome And as if You had not an Adversary at home that would cut You out businesse enough nor an Object sufficient to entertain You You set Your selves on work to discover severall Lands that were altogether unknown to former Ages the which You subjected to Your own Dominions But yet all these Politicall and Martial Vertues are nothing in comparison of Your Christian Vertues and Your Zeal to the Reformed Religion For no sooner had You freed Your selves from the Yoak of the Spanyard but You willingly submitted Your necks to the service of the Son of God and made Your Country a Sanctuary and Refuge to the poor Protestants whether persecuted in France or elsewhere And those Barbarians that You subjugated in Asia and America You subdued no lesse to the Kingdom of the Son of God then to Your own Signory so joyning the glory of God together with Your own Interests and enlarging the Empire of his Son with Your own and marrying which is rarely seen and therefore seems almost impossible the Maxims of State and the Principles of Religion together Evidencing it to the whole world that You are no lesse good Christians then great Polititians These are the Reasons Most Excellent Lords that moved me to Dedicate this small Treatise to Your Excellencies to wit Your great Zeal for the glory of God and the Edification of his Church Your present worthy Employment and Embassy Your Troubles in Religion alike with ours and particularly the Honor which one of Your Universities hath lately conferred upon me Now I beseech God to give You length of dayes with all sort of Temporall Happinesse in this World and to heap upon You Eternall Blessings in the World to come To powre out the most benigne and pretious influence of his Grace upon Your flourishing Estates Provinces to blesse all Your worthy undertakings to make You proceed as You have begun and to give You evermore Victory over all Your Enemies both Spirituall and Temporall to the end Your Signories may continue as firm and stable as the Heavens So prayeth he that is ever Obliged to remain Your EXCELLENCIES Most humble and obedient servant ADAM STEUART To the READER Gentle Reader THou hast here two Treatises the first concerning the Iudgements and Opinions of the Reformed Churches touching the businesse of Independency which may very well be equipollent if not preferable to an Oeucumenick Counâ—â—â— For in a Councell it is no such matter of wonder that men that are continually together and evermore conferring one with another should agree in their Opinions But this seemes rather a thing altogether admirable that These severall Churches notwithstanding they are so separated and divided in regard of the distances of their Places should jumpe so harmoniously in the Vnity and Consent of their Opinions The second is the Duply of Doctor Steuart to a Booke of M. S. alias of two Brethren who for very shame thought it their best and safest way to conceale their Names expressing only their fond and erronious Opinions and conceits Now good Reader I shall entreat this one favour at thy hands that thou wilt conferre diligently Doctor Steuarts Observations and the pretended Answer of M. S. and thou shalt finde that they have answered nothing at all to the purpose for that they omit wholly many of the most important Questions as that Touching the Power of the Members of the Church c. and of those few they do cull out here and there they answer not all the Arguments brought by the Doctor for making of them good but only those they finde to be the weakest And those Arguments they do attaque him upon they do but only scratch at them and never give them any solid or substantiall Answer contenting themselves with their jerkes of Language their ralleries injuries or with some Rhetoricall Digression from the businesse in hand the which thou wilt easily perceive if thou please to conferre Page with Page Question with Question and Argument with Argument which I instantly desire thee thou wouldst doe So as it was no way needfull that Doctor Steuart should have written any Confutation at all or vindicated his Observations And in very deed these last Pieces that he hath written were not undertaken so much for the making good of his owne Arguments or the Refutation of M. S. as that he might treat more largely and fully some Questions which he had only briefly toucht at in his Observations As also that he might draw those Foxes out of their Holes bringing light out of their darke Writings and so give some satisfaction to weak Brethren who ordinarily suffer themselves to be carried away with the streame of Language rather then with force of Arguments Now I have entituled this Treatise Zorobabel to Sanballat not so much to compare the Persons as the Causes one with another betwixt which there seemes to be very great Affinity and resemblance For 1. The Jewes at that time were about the re-building of the materiall Temple and we at this present upon the re-building or the Reforming of the spirituall Temple 2. That People served the true God but were Schismaticks that refused to sacrifice in the Temple at Hierusalem These men in like manner serve the true God whom we serve and have the same Doctrine with us but are Schismatickes that refuse to joyne themselves in Synods with us 3. They came from
the lesser societies owe respect and depend upon the Greater as our Practise witnesses with us The Example of the Synod of Dordrecht where we had our Deputies is a famous monument of the Blessing God powers out upon Generall Assemblies We may not deny notwithstanding that the circumstances of Times and Interests of the Princes with whom the Arke of God rests admit not evermore such Meetings But in those Kingdomes that enjoy such a precious liberty it should be a most unthankefull Felony against God that men should voluntarily when there is no necessity at all deprive themselves of such an estimable Advantage Whilst as those that are in possession hereof are scrupulous to serve themselves of the occasion those that have a Restraint upon them desire this happinesse exceedingly With what joy thinke you doe the Churches of France long after the happinesse to see themselves once assembled in a Nationall Synod according to the Grant they have obtained to this purpose this yeare It must be confessed notwithstanding that some Councels a man may meet with where he shall find fewer Defenders of the Truth then Champions for Errour But we speak not but of those where the Spirit of God and his Word hold the rather and of such as use not to establish any thing contrary to those lights and perswasions which the same Spirit and the same Word doe frame within the hearts of all the Faithfull Let us therefore stay the time till God letting out the raynes to a Persecution in his just indignation deprive us of the meanes of Assemblies Colloques and Synods But as long as his good Providence grants us this Priviledge let us not make our selves unworthy of so rare an Effect of his Bounty Sir This is that which I had to say unto you from an unanimous consent of all my Collegues We pray God with all our hearts that he will looke upon Sion in much pitty that he will rouze up his Iealousie and those yearning compassionate Bowells wherewith he uses to be moved towards his Churches and that he will be pleased speedily to give us occasion to glorifie his Holy Name in your deliverance Amen Your thrice humble servant Morus Geneva the 18. of Sept. 1644. Extraict des Actes du Synode National des Eglises Reformeès de France assemblè par permission du Roy a Charanton l'an 1644 le 26 Decembre iours suivans Envoye de Paris 17 27 Ianvier 1645 4. a D. B. SVR ce qui a esté rapporté par quelques Deputèz des Provinces Maritimes que plusieurs venans de pays estrange qui s'appellent Independans parcequ'ils enseignent que chaque Eglise Particuliere se doibt gouverner par ses Propres Loix sans aucune Dependance de personne es Matieres Ecclesiastiques sans obligation a recognoistre l'authorité des Colloques Synodes pour son regime conduicte establissent leur demeure en ce Royaume y pourroyent cy apres causer de grands inconveniens s'il n'y estoit de bonne heure pourveu La Compagnie craignant que la contagion de ce venin gaignant Insensiblement ne iette la confusion le desordre entre nous iugeant la dicte Secte des Independans non seulement prejudiciable a l'Eglise de Dieu entant qu'elle tache d'y introduire la confusion ouvrant la porte a toutes sortes de singularitès extravagances ostant tout moyens dy apporter remede mais aussy tres dangereuse a l'estat ou si'elle avoit lieu il se pourroit former autant de Religions qu'il y a de Paroisses ou Assemblées Particulieres enioint a toutes les Provinces specialement aux Maritimes de prendre garde que le mal ne prenne pied es Eglises de ce Royaume afin que la paix l'uniformité tant en la Religion qu'en la Discipline y soyen inviolablement entretenues que rien ne s'introduise parmy nous qui puisse alterer en aucune maniere le service qui est deû a leur Majestez Garrissole Moderateur Basnage Adjoynt Blondel Coq Secretaires An Extract of the Acts of the Nationall Synod of the Reformed Churches of France assembled by the Kings permission at Charantoun Anno 1644. 26. Decemb. and daies following VPon what hath been reported by the Commissioners of the Matitime Provinces that divers comming from forraign countries and who goe under the name of Independents because they teach that every particular Congregation ought to be governed by its owne particular Lawes without any depending of any in Ecclesiasticall matters and without any obligation to acknowledge the Authority of Colloques or Classes and Synods for its government and conduct settling their abode in this Kingdome and hereafter they might cause here amongst us many great inconveniences if in due time there were not order taken the Assembly fearing least the contagion of this poyson gaining ground insensibly should throw trouble and disorder amongst us and judging the said Sect of Independents to be not only prejudiciall to the Church of God in so far that it endeavours to bring in Confusion opening a Gate to all kind of Singularities and Extravagancies and taking away all meanes of any remedy to the evill but also most dangerous to the State where if it had place there might as many Religions set up as there be Parishes or particular Congregations doth enjoyn to all the Provinces and particularly to the Maritimes to take heed that the evill take no foot in the Churches of this Kingdom to the end that peace and Uniformity aswell in Religion as in Discipline may be inviolably preserved and that nothing be brought in amongst us which may alter in any kind the service due unto their Majesties Garrissole Moderator Basnage Adjoynt Blondel and Coq Secretaries Sentiment de l'Eglise de France touchant l'Episcopat l'Independance extraict d'une Letttre escrite a Mr. Buchanan par quelques Pasteurs 1 NOs Eglises ont tousjours creu constanment enseignè que l'Ordre des Evesques n'est nullement de droit divin 2. Si quelques Docteurs Protestants on t employè ce terme de Divin c'est avec la mesme Improprieté le mesme abus de Language que quelques Anciens ont appellê Diuini Canones les Canons que leurs pres avoient faits qu'ils pouvoient changer ou abroger 3. Solon l'Escriture Saincte Prestre Evesque designent une mesme chargê mais a divers esgards l'un de ces noms qui semble derivé de l'age denote la gravitè convenable aux Ministres de Iesus Christ l'autre exprime leur office qui est de veiller sur le troupeau qui leur est commis 4. Il est clair comme le jour que selon l'Eseriture Prestre Evesque designent une mesme charge car il y avoit Plusieurs Evesques en une mesme ville Philippiens 1. Et de mesmes personnes sont qualifiee
that is not in the Word of God for if it be well thought on these Inspectors have not any other Office in the Church of God then the other Pastors they are but onely delegated by their Brethren and Fellow Ministers and have from them and by their order a Commission for a time to watch over their Brethren as their Brethren may have a like Commission when their turne comes to watch over them and their behaviours Iust so as if in a well governed Family Brethren should make an agreement to give some one amongst them a Commission to watch for a certaine time over the deportment of the rest and this without any domination or command 8. To conclude sir you and we may easily agree upon this Article For you beleeve you are bound absolutely to abolish the Bishops of England and to shut quite out of doores the confusion of the Independents my thoughts are the same and I approve your designe wholly beseeching God with all my heart that he would blesse the worke of your hands and that you may see those happy daies wherein the Churches of England being purely Reformed may enjoy the same Discipline which is holily established in those of Scotland You are pleas'd in your letter to adde something concerning the Independents but you doe but only alleadge that which they beleeve and touch not upon any of the Reasons upon which they ground themselves wherefore I shall but only give a slight touch with my Pen upon every one of your sven Articles As to the first I thanke you most affectionately for the Copies of your Covenant the which I had seene before and had praised God who is the Author of this Christian peace and of this holy agreement of which I expect great fruit to the glory of God and the edification of his Church 2. The Independents doe but make sport when they say they acknowledge that Synods and Colloques are of Divine Right and deny them notwithstanding any manner of jurisdiction over particular Churches This is to pull downe with one hand what they build with the other For I cannot comprehend what use at all there can be of Colloques and Synods if they have no jurisdiction over particular Churches and lesse yet how one particular Church can refuse to submit it selfe to a generall Assembly the which it acknowledges to be of Divine Right 3. Now to that that they will not admit any one for a member of their Congregation that hath not some notable and conspicuous markes of Regeneration I conceive not that this opinion can have many Followers for that the members of the Church consist either of the Infants of Beleevers or of persons of perfect Age. As for the children of Beleevers there is no difficulty at all for the Apostle calls them Saints in regard of the Covenant of God that sanctifies and makes them holy And as for the others either they are borne amongst us or they come to our party by Conversion As for them that are converted it is true that they ought not hand overhead to be admitted into the body of the Church and that it does well to have some prooses of their knowledge in Religion as also some testimonies of their holy Conversation to the end that the Church be not defiled with their unsoundnesse But in this Examination we must proceed with charity and not be over severe for feare of casting backe and destroying of him who is yet weake and feeble in the Faith For as much as concernes those that are already in the communion of the Church the Rules of the Word of God are expresse concerning them They whose sins are not publique and notorious we are to reprove and censure them in private otherwise it were to spread a scandall and to offend against charity which covers a multitude of sins These that sin publickly and whose sins are notoriously knowne to all or the greater part of the people are to be reproved publickly and the businesse is to be carried so as that an amends be made by a publicke repentance for publick scandalls in case that it be requisite for the edification of the Church If the Offences be enormious or if the Offenders chance to be hardned and obstinate in their wickednesle we are to cut them off by Excommunication and so to take from among us the old leven that it soure not the whole lump and that the accursed thing cause not Israel to turne her backe But the Offender how great or enormious so ever he be if he repent after a convenient time of triall of the truth of his repentance we are bound to have compassion of him and to readmit him to the peace of the Church that he be not swallowed up with sorrow and cast head-long into Despaire It were good we should avoid as the too great severity and rigidity of the Ancients so likewise the over great levity and indulgence that is in vogue amongst us at this day 4. As to that that they will have every particular member present at the deliberation of all businesses whatsoever without having any right of suffrage or Authority I conceive this stands in need of some good distinction for certaine occasions there are upon which a man may grant them more then they demand as at such times when there is any debate touching businesses that are extraordinary and that concern the whole Church in generall for example then when as the question is touching the vocation or admission of a Pastor into a Church In such a case I am of opinion that all the Masters of Families that belong to that Church not onely ought to be present at the Consultation but also that they are to have their voyce and suffrage therein But that they should be at all kinds of debates there seemes to be no colour for it this neither can be nor indeed is it expedient It cannot I say be for the Church having continually businesses whereon to deliberate how is it possible the whole Church should so often be congregated Againe I say it is no waies expedient for there are certain businesses which ought not to be divulged wherein Christian Prudence and secrecie are very necessary If some particular man were to be censured for some particular offence that few know of and which if it were known would in all likelyhood expose him to a visible and apparent danger were it fitting now to debate and deliberate touching the censuring of this man before the whole Congregation Meet we at no time with businesses of such a nature as wherein the simple people are neither capable of understanding the Reasons nor yet able to hold their peace Must we needs abandon all Affaires of the Church to the discretion of every particular man If the people were to assist in all Consultations what a noise what contestations what divisions what scandalls should we have For however some men perchance would forbeare to deliver an opinion yet they would be
in a Rhetoricall and Oratorious way endeavour in the most part of your Book to publish your great Sufferings and extraordinary Piety and so to move us all to compassion and ravish us all into admiration as if ye meant rather to perswade then to prove them Hee answereth that he cannot answer since here is no sence And wherefore I pray Because the Interrogatory point is put after these words or from us Truly As the word agree or differ may by a certain Figure in Grammar called Zeugma be understood to be joyned with all those words so is the point of Interrogation But it should bee at the end as it is in the Observations And whereas it is in the beginning in stead of a Comma it is either the Printers over-sight or mine But to say that this great learned Clerk could not perceive this wherein the most ignorant findeth no difficulty who can believe him It is a pretty evasion to elude my Question Whereas he saith that the Interrogation should have been after Anabaptists as if the Reformed Protestants who refute Brownists and Anabaptists should say we Brownists and Anabaptists it is but his foolery which yet we could easily endure if he answered the Question Which since he cannot do I take it for granted that in this they have not proceeded well or at least not so well as they might If I should serve my selfe of such poore advantages or shifts rather as easily I might up and down in his and C.C. Books I should answer nothing at all as this Gentleman does But good men know that when ever I doubt of sence in them what ever I do I deale ingenuously with them and consult with sundry to find out their meaning and when neither others nor I my selfe can find any sense in their writings I passe it over in silence not reproving that which I understand not or that cannot be understood But if others understood it it is a great shame for this great Divine to have been so dull 7. Consid A.S. Whether the Apol. Narr be published in the name of the Five Ministers or of all those also or a part of those whom they pretend to hold their Tenets If in the name of you Five only whether ye Five can arrogate a power unto your selves to maintain these Tenets as the constant opinion of all your Churches having no generall confession of their Faith thereabouts If in the name of all the rest we desire you would shew your Commission from all your Churches c. These Questions have much vexed M.S. and put him to his wits end he would not answer but turnes them over unto me and will have mee to answer To which therefore I doe answer 1. Quaestio questionem non solvit 2. I answer directly 1. that this Answer I have made to the Apologie I have done it of my selfe and have done it by Authority since I have a Licence granted by him that by Authority Licenceth Books 2. I write in defence of all the best Reformed Protestant Churches and specially of that of Scotland France and the Netherlands to whose Judgement and Authoritative power in Synods I acknowledge my Booke to be subject so I arrogate nothing but with due Dependence and subjection but the Five Ministers are as Independent as I am Dependent as imperious as I am subject and odedient to my Superiours If they will answer as I we shall no more contest They have gained me to them if I have not gained them to the Church of Christ Besides this These Questions cannot reasonably bee propounded to A.S. 1. for A.S. is no Sectary neither Independent Brownist Anabaptist Arminian c. condemned or rejected by the Church of England or any other well Reformed Church 2. He is no minister much lesse an Independent Minister 3. He is not a Suitor for a Toleration of any not tolerated or intolerable Religion as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers 4. He has not written against the common Faith of Reformed Dependent Churches as they have 5. If he had done so he should judge himselfe bound to give Reason both of his Faith and answer all those who would ask for an account thereof 6. However you turne and returne the Interrogation yet are you bound to answer 1. M.S. takes upon him to answer but answereth not as we shall God willing heare His first answer is It is no arrogating for any Christian upon just occasion to make his Confession of faith But to what Question I pray answereth this I grant you this but answer you to my Question In whose name c. His second Answ The Confession of Faith in Doctrine that is in all the best Reformed Churches is theirs A.S. As wide as before the Question is not of the Confession of Faith but about the Apologie in whose name it is published c. 2. M.S. For one touching pure Discipline it was not found in Scotland whiles the Tyrannie of Bishops prevailed A.S. 1. Here he seemeth to acknowledge that being freed from Episcopall Tyrannie we have pure Discipline which I acknowledge to be true 2. If by pure Discipline he understands Presbyteriall Government wee had it when Bishops prevailed howbeit oppressed by Episcopacie 3. There is no Confession of Faith if it be taken strictly but of some points of Discipline in the Apologie but we cannot know of them in whose name I am not angry at their Confession of Faith as M.S. saith but sory for their Schismes and want of Charity neither is it true that I have opened other mens mouthes but God Efficiently and your Calumnies against the Church Occasionally have opened good mens mouthes against you Turdue sibi malum cacat and yee must be content to drink as ye have brewed for your selves 3. M.S. 3. The godly learned Fathers Tertullian Justin Martyr c. produced no Authority from men to Apologize for the truth The Scripture they Apologized for bore them out A.S. 1. It seemeth by this Answer that they Apologize only for Scripture and can produce no Christian Church that they Apologize for 2. Tertull. Justin Martyr and all the Fathers apologized in the name of all the true Christian Churches of their time and acknowledged themselves and their Apologies to be subject to the Judgement and Authoritative spirituall power of Synods and they were as Dependent upon them as ye are Independent 3. Howbeit their Apologies had no Authoritie of men yet were they able sure to tell from time to time in whose Names they did Apologize M.S. 4. The Parliament allowes the five Ministers more viz. to shew their Reasons therefore the less to shew their Opinion A.S. 1. This answereth not yet the Question 2. But the Parliament alloweth them not a particular clandestin Assemby separated from the Generall Assembly 3 It alloweth them not to print Apologies against all the best Reformed Protestant Churches when they are sitting in qualitie of Members of the Assembly and against the Opinion of the most part of the
Members thereof 4. The Parliament alloweth them not to shew their Reasons a part without imparting them first to the Assembly and that without their Consent 5. Much lesse to be Suitors for a Toleration or allowance of their Sect or if it allow them any such thing I would pray them to shew us an Ordinance for it 6. What reason that your extraordinary Sect should have more allowance then the rest of the Synod We pray you in the name of God to live as Brethren more humane as other mortall men and if ye can or dare to answer my Questions as I doe yours M.S. 5. A thousand good Christians were glad to heare how the Five Ministers dissented from the rigid Separation and closed with the best Reformed Churches A.S. Note here that M.S. saith not that the five Ministers dissented from all the Separatists but only from the rigid Separation 2. They close not with the best reformed Churches unless by the best Reformed Churches be meant the Independent Churches For he calls all our Churches in Scotland France the Netherlands and Switzerland Episcopall Churches our Presbyteries Idols that must be grinded 3. Hee and his Partie dissent not in effect from Separatists in point of Separation in generall for they separate themselves from our Discipline and Sacramentall Communion as well as they doe 4. All this answereth not my Questions I will not reply to his injuries against my Person for they touch not the Cause Neither envie I him in ill doing A.S. 8. Consid Whether ye desire a Toleration for you Five alone in your Religion or for all the rest Item If a Toleration in publick in erecting of Churches apart or to live quietly without troubling of the State As for the last appearingly yee may have it unsought but for the rest the Parliament is wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church of God and the State My Adversary finds these Questions so newhat too hot for his fingering and therefore takes it for a point of Prudence not to touch them for feare to be burnt Now then that he may not seeme to have said nothing he falls to quarrelling with me about the signification of the word Toleration and the Parliaments wisedome because I say It is wise enough c. which he calleth a Contradiction to what I say afterward M.S. Toleration saith learned Cappell is of things unlawfull A.S. Toleration or Toleratio in Latine has many significations 1. Sometimes it is taken for Patience and so it is an Act or integrant part of Fortitude as Thomas and the Schoole-men speak 2. Sometimes it signifieth a permission of things that we cannot mend Toleranda sunt quae emendari non possunt And so the Magistrate tolerateth sometimes many things against his Lawes when he cannot make men obey 3. Sometimes a permission of things indifferent that are not forbidden by Law 4. Tolerabilia Tributa in the Roman lawes are moderate Tributes Tolerabilia saith Calvin sunt quae vetus consuetudo comprobat Cal. in Lexico Juridico And we have in Tacitus tolerare vitam which is not a thing unlawfull So that Cappell if he say so appearingly he speaketh not of Toleration in the whole latitude of its signification for things indifferent may be tolerated Afterwards M.S. he sayes that he will not yeeld the one nor beg the other i. e. if I understand him yeeld that their Religion is unlawfull or beg a Toleration what then will he have an allowance and approbation will nothing content him unless we confesse that Independency is lawfull and consequently that Dependency upon Councells and Synods is unlawfull This is close home and so to content you the whole State and all the Protestant Churches needs nothing els but that without any further reason they come hither and cry peccavimus omnes The other quarrell is my pretended Contradiction in these two Propositions 1. The Parliament is wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church 2. The Civill Magistrate arrogates not to himselfe any directive power in matters of Religion 1. But tell me my good Trifler what Contradiction can there be here Is not a Contradiction an Opposition between two Propositions the one Affirmative the other Negative both singular or the one Universall the other Particular having both the same termes Now is there here the same termes viz. the same Attribute in both these Propositions are they both singular or the one Universall and the other Particular where are thy eyes where is thy judgement where is thy Logick 2. Howbeit the Parliament be wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church will it follow that the Parliament and every Civill Magistrate has a directive power whereby Intrinsecally they may rule and teach the Church which is that whereof I spake there 3. By the same reason any good Scholler who liveth a private life and knoweth what is convenient for the Church should have the like power 3. Learne they here that it is not simply wisdome or knowledge but Gods calling that can give any such power to any mortall man 4. What if the Civill Magistrate were a Papist or a Professed Atheist should his bare knowledge give him any directive power over the Church I cannot believe thee to be so absurd or wicked as to say it The rest of his Discourse here is his ordinary injuries and words of contempt against my person which I sleight and passe by as unworthy of an answer A.S. 9. Consid And because the whole draught of this Book tends evermore to a Toleration and consequently to some Separation 1. I would willingly know of you what Things are to be tolerated or not tolerated in Religion 2. Not in private persons but in Consociacions 3. And particularly when the whole Kingdome is joyned in one Religion 4. What sort of new Consociations of divers Religions it may in good Conscience tolerate and receive into it 5. Item upon what ground Churches may in good Conscience make separation from other Churches that desire union and communion with them 6. Whether they that aime at a Toleration and Separation be not rather bound to tolerate some small pretended Defects not approved by those from whom they desire to separate themselves and especially when they that are so desirous of Separation are not pressed to be Actors in any thing against their consciences then to separate themselves from a Church that testifieth a great desire to reforme the defects pretended to be in it 7. Whether it were not better for them that aime at Toleration and Separation to stay in the Church and to joyn all their endeavours with their Brethren to reforme Abuses then by their Separation to let the Church of God perish in Abuses 8. Whether they doe not better that stay in the Church to reforme it when it may be reformed then who quit it for feare to be deformed in it The Adversary to Elude these 8. Questions telleth us that they answer themselves and
of their opinions 5. Put the case it were so yet was it not so seasonable for them then to write as before M. S. Answereth 1. That many of these mists and not all 2 That they did but begin to scatter A. S. Iust but it was not so seasonable to write when any of them as when none of them begun to scatter or after as before they begun to scatter so to speake Morally that Apology was not seasonable since it was lesse seasonable then it would have been formerly M. S. Their motions were like the lowrings of an unconstant morning in which the mists ascend and anon descend and by and by ascend and turne into a Scottish mist that will wet an English man to the skin as our usuall Proverb is A. S. 1. This is but a Simile Quod nil probat 2. It is to be noted here how he noteth this Proverbiall jeer of a Scottish mist in a different sort of letter as conteyning some particular mystery and consequently worthy of the Readers particular observation 3. Yet I may say that the Independent mist is more able to drown all England Scotland and Ireland then a Scottish mist the outward part of an English mans cloathes and so will all true English and Christian hearts judge If any thing have befallen you since the change of the time of your Exile more imaginary then reall it was your owne fault in seducing the people in a clanculary way and in making of clandestine Assemblies and Conventicles which good Ministers could not endure seeing that nothing could content you unlesse that all should stoop under you Neither hath your Apology any waies diminished any ill but rather taken away the good opinion they had of you Afterwards M. S. accuseth not only the people but also Mr. Rutherford and Mr. Herle and sundry other Ministers A. S. his second reason is They who are called by the Parliament and admitted by the Assembly of Divines into the Assembly howsoever that calling was to finde them good and not to make them so are supposed by them to be innocent and not culpable and especially after that they have sate long in the Assembly of Divines with honour and good respect and consequently they are sufficiently vindicated from all false Accusations and have no need to Apologize for themselves that being farre away more sufficient to justifie them before the world then any Apology whatsoever that they can write for themselves But the Apologists were so called c. Ergo. This is the sense and forme by me intended of my Argument in the fourth Observation and not that that M. S. putteth upon it As for his instance of the Bishops against the first Proposition that they were called by the Parliament to the Assembly and yet they were not for all that supposed to be innocent or vindicated I Answer 1. That the Bishops were not admitted into the Assembly of Divines as they were 2. If they had been admitted and continued as long as they without reproach how can any doubt but that their sitting there should have served them for a sufficient justification and vindification of their honour in foro externo before men since it is not morally to be presumed that such a grave Senate will call or such a holy Assembly of such Learned and Reverend Divines will admit and retaine so long together any scandalous persons in their Assembly So this being testimonium alienum non proprium and publicum non privatum without all doubt it was sufficient to justifie them and more then any thing they can say in their owne behalfe since they cannot speake as Iudges but as Parties who are evermore justly suspected A. S. 3. Reason He or they who are sent by authority of Parliament into Scotland with the Parliaments Commissioners to treat of an extraordinary great Reformation of Religion in England and Ireland for the preservation of the Religion in Scotland in bringing them all to uniformity according to Gods Word and the Example of the best Reformed Churches and have ended the businesse with them are not morally to be presumed to be culpable but sufficiently freed from all filthy aspersions in matter of Religion that can have been laid upon them at least in foro externo wherein only they can be justified by men in this life for it is not Morally to be presumed that the Parliament would have imployed any but Orthodox men and good men in a matter of so high a concernment and consequently they needed not to Apologize for themselves or if they doe so it was unseasonably done But the Apologizers are such men If it be said only one of them was such a man Answ It is all one 1. For in matter of Religion they lye all under one and the same notion 2. At least that one needed not to Apologize as he did 4. Because being minded to make an Apology they should either not have made it at all being Members ' of the Assembly or have done it before their Admittance thereunto or after the Dissolving of the Assembly This had been a great deale more seasonable for it is not fit for a man to Apologize for himself in a cause wherein he sitteth as Iudge or when he sitteth as Iudge 5. We can finde no ordinary Example of such proceedings either in Scripture or Ecclesiasticall History 6. Because they did it in a season when the Church State stood in need of the Brotherly assistance of all the best reformed Churches and in that very nick of time they under-valued them all as not having the power of Piety as they themselves censured their Ecclesiasticall Discipline as not agreeable unto Gods Word and called them Calvinians whereof we have a sufficient proofe in a Letter sent to the Assembly from the Synod of Walachria wherein it complaineth much against this Booke because of the offence that the Reformed Churches received thereby 7. Because it was published against the Scots Discipline in that very nick of time most unseasonable when they were invited to come into England and when they came to hazard their lives for the Church and State of England and for the lives and states of these very men who in the meane while were writing against their Discipline QUEST 5. Whether the Quixqu ' Ecclesian Ministers should not have done better to have published their Opinions by way of Thoses or in some other Didactick way rather then by an Apologeticall Narration IMaintaine the Affirmative part 1. Because that of all other is the most accurate and easiest way to manifest cleerly their Opinions by both to the learned and ignorant 2. Because all other waies of teaching beget confusion for in them we cannot discerne that which is Substantiall from that which is Circumstantiall as we may see in Comedies Tragedies all sort of Verses long Speeches Prayers Dialogues c. 3. Because in this Apologeticall Narration it selfe many things are inserted which touch not the Businesse at all 4.
being presupposed I put this Conclusion All Persons in a Church or the whole Collective Body thereof have not Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction 1. They have not the power to exercise it 1. Because we read no such thing in Scripture viz. that ever God committed the Government of the Church to every idle Fellow that is a member thereof 2. Because it is contrary to the generall Ordinance of God 1 Tim. 3. that all Church-Officers be examined and tryed before their Admission And to the practise of the Old Testament in the religion of the Levites that served five yeares in their Apprenticeship 3. Because every particular member of the Church hath not the Ability to Iudge or Rule because of his ignorance and want of learning for every one in the Church cannot be learned for some there be that needs are spirituall some that be carnall some Babes in Christ some men some have need of milke some of meat 1 Cor. 3.1 2 3. 4. Because of their imprudence for some of the vulgar are somewhat precipitate and rash in the examination of matters others very slow in their judgement some in their speech and some in all which is not convenient in so grave matters in Iudging the Iudgements of the Lord. 5. Because some are vicious and culpable of the faults or crimes that are to be Iudged and condemned in others and therefore are not fit Iudges to Iudge them 6. Many in the Congregation may be friends Kinsmen or allyed with the party that is to be Iudged and so partiall wherefore some of the Congregation at the least in that case are to be excluded and by Consequence the simple Title of Christianity and profession thereof or to be a member of the Church gives not all christians this right but some other thing 7. If every one of the Church may Iudge or exercise Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction then women also whom Saint Paul commands to hold their peace in the Church 1 Cor. 14.34 and to be subject in obedience without Iurisdiction 8. All distracted men and babes should have power to Iudge and so those that are without Iudgment shold Iudge since they are members of the Church It may be answered that they admit not babes but those only that are in age and apparently regenerated Inst But then every member of the Church hath power to Iudge but men distracted are in age Ergo they have power to Iudge It may be answered that they understand that those only that are in age and have the use of reason should be admitted Inst 1. But when hath a man the use of Reason how shal they define that It is commonly defined by Philosophers and others the age of seven yeares which will make no very able Ecelesiasticall Senator here the Scripture is desicient they will admit nothing in Discipline but that which is commanded by Christ 2. What if a man in his old age begin to dote they may answer that then he is excluded because reason failes him Inst Then he must be declared not sitting which may breed division Jnst Item a man may be in age and yet little skilled in Divinity for to Iudge in matter of Heresie and be more vitious then when he was a childe And if a man be Iudged by babes children fooles and doting old men it is to be feared especially if the Iudged be rich that the Iudgement be the cause rather of division then concord so this Discipline being established all Schismes may break forth controversies and contentions They may answer that they establish these that are really or apparently in judgement of charity Saints as it may be collected from the Rom. c. 1.2 1 Cor. 1. Eph. 1. Phil. in the beginning of the chapters Reply But every particular man in every particular Congregation of the Visible Church whereof we only dispute is not nor can in speaking morally as falleth out ordinarily be a Saint 1. Because the Church is compared to a Ground whereof one part is by the way side the other stony another thorny another good To a Ground wherin growes Wheat and Tares To a Draw-Net receiving good and bad fishes Mat. 13. to a Society of wise and foolish Virgins Mat. 25. And to a House wherein there are Vessels to honour and dishonour There must be Offences or slanders saies Christ Math. 18.7 2. Howbeit they were all Saints yet should it not follow thereupon that they are all learned prudent judicious and endowed with other gifts to judge either in matters of Doctrine in Creating of Ministers and in Excommunicating of Hereticks or of Discipline which sometime requires some knowledge of the Civill law as in Cases of Matrimonie c. As for the Passages of St. Paul 1. I deny that he calls all the Members of the Church Saints Formally but the whole Body of the Church is so called or denominated because of the holinesse which is really or apparently inherent in some Members or parts thereof which denominates the whole Body as when a man is said to see because of the sight which is not inherent in all the parts of his Body but only in his Eye or wise for his wisdome which is inherent in his Soule alone 2. If it were otherwise the Apostle should have written untruths in these Texts for Rom. 16.17 18. he sayes Now I beseech you Brethren marke them which cause divisions and offences c. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly and 1 Cor. 5. It is known that the Incestuous man was not excommunicated Some of them were also Schismaticks saying that they were of Christ of Paul of Apolloes And what the Galathians were the whole Epistle testifies so that according to our Brethrens grounds there was no visible Church here and nothing could have been judged 3. It is not sanctification or holinesse of life but Politicall or Ecclesiasticall prudence that furnisheth their Abilities for 1. Sanctification is Gratia gratum faciens one sort of Grace or gift of the Spirit that renders us gracious or makes us acceptable to God But the facultie of Ruling and exercising of Jurisdiction in the Church is Gratia gratis data given gratiously only but makes us not gracious or acceptable to God as the Gift of Prophecie of Tongues Intepretation c. 2. The first is given us principally for our own benefit the other principally for other mens benefit and therfore 3. the first is for to save a man himself the second to save others when peradventure he may be damned himselfe as we see in Judas who had the grace of Prophecie whereby he saved others but damned himselfe and did preach salvation to others beleeving but damnation to himselfe unbeleeving 4. The first makes one a good Christian the other a good Citizen in the exteriour Societie of the Church alone yea 5. I may boldly say that a man may be a good Preacher or Prophet or Ruler in the Church and an ill Christian if hee preach