Religion can be visible for our Sauiour Christ saith that true vvorshippers vvorshipp God in spiritt and truth but spirituall vvorshipp and true internall deuotion is not so easily seene vnlesse therfore our aduersary suppose Popish Religion to consist in the Popes myter and in cooles of monks and such like externall matters he shall hardly proue Religion to be visible And is not this matter subtilly shifted of thinke yow or may not this man play his prize in this kind of fensinge in what place soeuer True Religion saith he is not visible What then yet men that professe true Religion are visible and by them may the continuance of true Religion be visibly deduced and this was that which his aduersary meaÌ„t when he said that the visible Church or Congregation of Englishmen comming downe visibly from the tyme of S. Gregory vnto oures and professing alwayes one and the selfe same faith Religion did make a visible Church and therby a visible deduction of Catholike Religion for the space of a thousand yeares to geather and that this was not only to be seene or proued by the Popes myter or cooles of monkes as this merry madd minister iesteth but by all English Kings crownes and coronations by all parlament robes and other honourable testimonyes of our nobility both spirituall and temporall and by whatsoeuer other most authenticall proofe this scoffer can diuise And who then will not laugh to see him for ouerthrow of all this demonstration to start out behind a bush and say Lett him shew vs yf he can that true Religion is visible Wherby yow may somewhat see into the man and his witt talent Let vs passe to the second part of his booke The second part of this new edition conteyneth as before hath byn shewed a renewinge of his former chalenge wherof yt shall not be needfull for me to speake any more in this place hauinge declared before the causes and speciall motiueâ— of this needlesse renouation only I will say that whosoeuer will take the paynes to reade the briefe learned answere of VV. R. against the same and the multitude of errors ignorances lyes and frauds therin conuinced he will blush in Sutcliffes behalfe yf he be his frend or laugh and insult ouer him yf he be his enemy and whensoeuer he shall make his reply for the first edition already answered I do not thinke but that VV. R. yf the thinge it selfe be not to contemptible will vouchsafe to returne his full reioynder both to that and this or at least wise to the most principall points of them both Wherfore we shall leaue this passe to the third part wherin we shal be forced to stay and entertaine our selues somwhat longer for examination of certayne places obiected against Maister Sutcliffe by E. O. and therby see his talent in answeâ—inge for himselfe whether yt be better then for his client before and albeit I shall not be able to stand vpon the siftinge of many places heere yet will the vew of some two or three of the first giue a good coniecture of all the rest Wherfore the third part of this new edition comprehendeth as before hath byn signified the shew of a certayne answere or defence of Maister Sutcliffe his truth and honest dealing in 26. places or therabout obiected to him by E. O. as fraudulently handled And albeit before he come to the combat he do send forth those excessiue vaunts and bragges which in part you haue heard yet in the conflict yt selfe yow are like to see the poore man not a little daunted and encumbred The difference also of speach betweene him his aduersary will appeare notoriously markeable for so much as himselfe recytinge his aduersaryes words and arguments for besides his owne relation we haue nothinge therof doth scarse euer note hard speach or phrase vsed by him against himselfe wheras the others answere is a perpetuall inuectiue of intemperate scoldinge asse dolt dizard in grayne franticke lunatike estaticall owleglas and like tearmes ate the ordinary and cheefe flowers of his phrases and yet notwithstandinge yf yow stand attent to the matter and marke what passeth in the combatt yow will quickely lay the truth of these reprochefull phrases vpon Sutcliffe himselfe and say that he deserueth them for contemning so lightly so graue modest and learned an aduersary as his seemeth to be And surely yf he be the man in deed whome Sutcliffe aduentureth to name in some partes of his annswere that is to say Maister Ph. VV. I haue knowne him for such many yeares and he may hold Sutcliffe to Schoole as many yeares more in discretion vertue and true skill of diuinity yf a man may iudge of him accordinge to his wrytings but this shall appeare better by the examination of the places which I â—aue promised to discusse And yet heere yow must be aduertised that we shall not be able to make this exameÌ„ so exactly in all points as otherwayes we would desire for that we haue not the treatise yt selfe of E. O. his accusations for which cause we are forced to alleage things only as Sutcliffe is content to cyte them whome in euery thinge lightly we find both faulty false and faithlesse and therfore yf he be conuinced heere by his owne relation yow must be sure that yt is with more then euident reason The first place then obiected by E. O. against O. E. now discouered to be Mathuw Sutcliffe ys taken out of this chalenge of the first edition cap. 1. pag. 20. num 10. where he auoucheth boldly that the vse of exorcisuis blowinge salt spittle ballowed water annoyntments lights and other such ceremonyes as his words are vvere not practized by the auncient Church c. Against which false assertion E. O. obiecteth first Iohn Caluyn his maister who confesseth these ceremonyes to be very ancient And secondly he alleageth diuers Fathers that make mentioÌ„ of the same each one in their tymes Origen Nazianzen Ambrose and others Lett vs see now how this minister will deliuer himselfe of this first charge and do you marke his shifts for neuer mouse in a trapp nor dogge in a cannase did seeke more holes to runne out at thâ—â— this slippery fellow First about Caluyn he seemeth to be most troubled esteeminge more of his authority perhaps then of all the rest alleaged and therfore he saith How leglasse doth affirme for so he teasmeth his aduersary without comparison more learned then himselfe that Caluyn doth confesse yt to witt the antiquity of these ceremonyes but vvhat yf yt be true and vvhat yf Maister Caluyn do not confesse that vvhich I say to be vntruth Marke good reader do you not see heere a sound beginninge of answeringe by contrary interrogations to witt what yf yt be true and what yf yt be not true but yow will aske me what in the end is his resolution about Iohn Caluyn Yow shall heare yt many lines
follow be extant in the French tongue and consequently like also to be in England before this day yet for that euery man vnderstandeth not that language nor is it so probable that many men will take the paynes to translate diuulge the same to such as may haue neede or desire to reade it I iudged the labour not vnprofitable to performe the same from hence But besides there is another reason of more moment and more peculiar to this place to witt that albeit the former printed chalenges might come to Englishmens hands by other meanes yet the combat it selfe with the true issue therof togeather with the manner of the triall and particulars occurred therin which haue byn wrytten hither by most authenticall partyes as vnto the place where accompt of such affayres concerninge Religion is wont to be giuen could not or would not perhapps so fully and sincerely be related in England as the truth of the whole action requireth the reason wherof each man will easily coÌ„sider These then being the causes that moued me to take this little paine founded as yow see in the zeale of truth and fidelity I haue thought good to deliuer faithfully vnto you such letters as haue come to my hands about this affayre though not all For that diuers letters wrytten out of France by diuers other partyes reportinge the selfe same thing I thought not needful for me to print nor to multiply relations without necessity but to content my selfe only for breuityes sake with the letter of the K. Maiestie himselfe and with one other of the Bishop that was an actor in the cause wrytten to the Kings Embassadour in this place and to some other Cardinalls besides by them to be exhibited vnto his Holynes to whome the Bishopp well knew that the selfe same thing would be wrytten by others also lesâ—e interessed in the matter then himselfe and more then this that his said letters and reporte would be returned to France againe where all aduaÌ„tage would be taken against him by the aduersary yf in any one point he should exceed the bare truth in his narration which consideration may assure vs that he would haue great care to relate all points both truly and modestly as in his letter that ensueth may be seene that he doth and the same may be gathered also plainely by the K. letter it selfe to the Duke of Espernon which after we shall relate But yet besides these two letters there was another wrytten two dayes after the said Bishops letter by the Popes Nuntio in Paris vnto Cardinall Aldobrandino and by him to be deliuered to his holynes wherin is related verified though in very few words the very same narration which the Bishop wryteth as by the extract therof heerafter sett downe appeareth And this now were sufficient for a preface only to this matter were yt not that I haue thought expedient also to touch breifely two other points First what these two persons are which had the combat and then the briefe summe of that which passed betwene them therein For first the L. Plessis Morney his name and person is well knowne in England for that aboue 20. yeares past I saw my selfe a booke of his intituled Of the Church and notes therof translated into English and much esteemed by protestants of that time for that he wryteth more cunningly and couertly and is more plausible in shew both of scriptures Fathers then commonly other wryters of his Religion then were And for that he is a noble man borne and of the laity and not vnlearned in diuers languages and in great creditt for many yeares with this King of France whose Embassadour he was in England whilst he was yet a protestant and his Maiestie King only of Nauarre and now since his comminge to the kingdome of France much trusted also and vsed by him in his ciuill affayres and in gouernment of the towne and country of Saumur For these causes I say and for that he hath wrytten many bookes he is accompted euery where for one of the cheeife champions and head pillars of Protestant Religion in France wherby this his disgrace so notoriously receaued in that thinge wherin he made publike profession to be exact to witt in true and playne dealinge must needs open the eyes of such as are discreet and desirous in deed to follow truth and decline from falshood and so it did vs after yow see The B. of Eureux on the other side named Monsieur Person is a person no lesse eminent markable both for that his parents being great Protestants himselfe also for many yeares he being a man also of great wyet extraordinary memory and by reason of his state of life more occupied in studyes as is probable then the other comminge afterward by readinge and by Gods especiall grace to be a Catholike he became so zealous earnest and ardent therin as none do more when they are full informed that his greatest indeauours since his conuersion haue byn to conuert also others and to impart that light which God hath bestowed vpon him to as many as possibly he can In which respect the K. Maiestie of France hauinge loued him much and esteemed also before when he was a Protestant and no lesse synce that he hath byn a zealous Catholike and knowinge him to be both learned faithfull sincere made choyce of him for his especially Embassadour in Rome in the yeare 1595. to treat his great affayre for his reconciliation to the Catholike Church which hath come to that happy issue which â—ll the world seeth both for the good of his â—arson people and crowne And thus much of these 2. persons who being both of them so gratefull and well liked of the King as I haue shewed his Maiesties indifferency in iudgmeÌ„t also betwene them both the truth of the cause only excepted must needs be voyd of all suspition and consequently his sentence afterward prononced on the one side as by his letter appeareth must in reason be thought to haue proceeded of the manifest difference of the said cause and force of truth it selfe which he discouered vpon that triall Now then to speake a word or two of the action as it passed you must vnderstand that about Christmasse last there came forth a booke in Paris of the aforsaid Monsieur Plessis against the Masse which booke making shew as the fashion is of great aboundance and ostentation of Fathers Councells Doctors and storyes for his purpose great admiration seemed to be conceaued therof and the Protestants euery where began to triumph of so famous a worke published in their behalfe Whervpon diuers Catholike learned men tooke occasion presently to examine the said booke finding many most egregious deceyts shiftes and falsifications therin diuers bookes were wrytten against it one in particular by a French Iesuite discouering at least a thousand falshoods of his part All the preachers of Paris in like manner
therof and yet would he auouch that no true Catholike had vsed the same but being reprehended for yt and told of his lyinge by his aduersary diuers Fathers cited for proofe therof and his owne Maister Caluyn and his brother VVillett for acknowledginge the same yet commeth he now to affirme and print yt againe in his second edition of his chalenge and dissembleth peruerteth and shifteth of the authorityes both of the said Fathers Caluyn himselfe as though they had neuer ben obiected against him And what will yow say to this manner of dealinge will you aduenture your soule with such a man or will yow giue creditt any more to his fond crakinge or vauntinge aboue mentioned But we are ouerlong in this third part cannot well get out of it through the multitude of aduantages that Sutcliffe geueth vs in pursuinge him in this his chase of defendinge himselfe yet must we sound retreat and say only a word or two of the fourth part of this his new booke conteyninge as yow haue heard a heap or fardell of recriminations gathered togeather against auncient Popes Councells synods historiographers and other Catholike wryters and lastly against Cardinall Bellarmyne Cardinall Baronius and F. Parsons by which ostentation of names and authors he would make men beleeue that all the world were full of corruptions and falsifications in wrytinge and consequently that those of his and of his fellowes are little to be respected but when the occasion shall come to aunswere this second edition at large the differences wil be shewed and how vainly this little enuious mouse hath gone about to gnibble at Catholike authors edges of their garments particularly at the wrytings of the most famous learned and honourable men of our tyme Cardinall Bellarmine and Cardinall Baronius who haue so beaten downe heresy with their most excellent works as by allusion we may say of them in respect of Sutcliffe ipsi conterunt caput tuum tu vero insidiaris eorum calcaneis they haue broken thy head and thou doest byte at their heeles Of the third which is F. Persons and the obiections heere brought against his wrytings we had thought to haue spoken somewhat more particularly but lacke of tyme and roome maketh vs also to albreuiate this yet somewhat for example sake shal be said Sutcliffe nameth two books of his the first entituled A briefe discourse conteyninge reasons why Catholiks refuse to go to Church The next is called A Christian directory and commonly knowne by the name saith he of Parsons Resolution Against the former booke he bringeth two reasons as wise as his head can deuise the one that he promised to make three parts of that booke and performed but one abusinge saith he both his frends and aduersaryes with his false promises The other reason is saith he for that to persuade men not to go to ProtestaÌ„ts Church must needs stand vpon this supposition that the Popes Religion is true and therfore he should first haue proued this principle before he had gone about to giue reasons to stand stedfast therin But now saith he yf Parsons can say nothinge why the Religion in England is not Catholike and Apostolicall then all his reasons fall to the ground These two reasons do well declare what a man of worth Sutcliffe is And not to shew on my parte distrust in the Readers iudgement I will not go about to refute such vanityes For if this last reason haue any force yt proueth also that no Protestant Preacher or wryter may exhort any of his Religion to constancy perseuerance patience humility or any other vertue except he proue first all that Religion to be true But lett vs passe to the other booke perhaps his obiections wil be stronger against that His directory also saith he is a most idle and vayne discourse so idle and vaynè do seeme all treatises of piety to this prophane minister yt should consist of three parts but as the fashion is of three promised he keepeth backe two performeth the third very simply This is his censure of that booke And presently as he is fertile in inuention though foolish in his election he commeth with eyght choise accusations against yt The first is for that he proueth there is a God and that Christian Religion is true aboue all other Religions and that he treateth against dispayre of Gods mercyes tentations and too much feare of persecution VVhich rather doth hinder a man saith Sutcliffe from leading a Christian life then help him to resolue The second That the greatest part saith he is taken out of Loartes Stella Granatensis and other such authors The third for that yt argueth Catholikes to be badd Christians that they must be taught there is a God hell heauen and the like The fourth That Sutcliffe doth not find that yt hath made hitherto any one Christian or directed him to the way of lyfe but many yong men to the gallowes The fifth that yt hath not brought Father Persons him selfe yet to a good resolution nor to enter into Religion The sixt For that his discourse to proue that there is a God and but one true Religion and that there is a heauen hell among Christians already well persuaded is impertinent The seauenth For that yt is diuided into speculation and practice as yf saith he a man could practise that is not entred into the exercise of Religion or as yf resolution were not farre differeÌ„t from practise The eight last for that yt is fraught with idle discourses the principall point so weakely proued that yt will rather make Christians to doubt of Religion then atheists to beleeue These are Sutcliffes reasons which shew the mans depth and conforme to these are his obiections picked out of the forsaid two books about allegation wherof I would gladly haue sett downe some halfe adozen at least for example so to haue seene the weight and substance therof but that I am forced to make an end referring my selue to a fuller exameÌ„ when his reply shall come forth Now then only I am to aduertise the Reader that he weigh with himselue what manner of man Sutcliffe is in these his wrytings he vaunteth and chalengeth as yow see as yf he were agyant and when he cometh to the gryping he is iust nothing he offereth to answere for all as Iewell Fox Peter Martyr Ridley Fulke Plessis Mornay whome els yow will besides but when yt cometh to the triall he is able neither to make good for them nor for himselfe and is iust like a knight of the post that will offer to be surety for ten thousand pounds when all his owne substance is not worth ten shillings His writings are loose ragged negligent barrâ—n obscure and vnsauery without substance either of learning prudeÌ„ce sharpnes or good stile yf yow looke them ouer yow shall find them for the most part fraught furnished only with bare assertions
que ie suis d'auis que mes seruiteurs tiennent pour tirer fruict de ce saincte oeuure Bon soir mon amy Sachant le plaisir que vous en aurez Vous estes seul a qui l'on le mande Le 5. de May. 1600. Henry Au dessus de la lettre A mon Cousin le Duc d' Espernon THE COPIE OF THE K. OF FRANCE HIS FORMER LETTER TO the Duke of Espernon concerninge the late triall had betwene the B. of Eureux and the Lord Plessis translated into English CHAP. VI. MY Friend The Diocesse of Eureux hath ouercome the Diocesse of Saumur and the sweet manner of proceedinge that hath byn vsed hath taken away all occasion to any Hugenot whatsoeuer he be to say that any force hath byn vsed beside the only force of truth The bearer heerof was present at the combatt who will informe yow what maruayles I haue done therin Certanily it is one of the greatest blowes that hath byn giuen for the Church of God this long while for the manifestation of this error By this meanes we shall reduce more in one yeare of them that are separated from the Church then by any other way in 50. yeares There were a large discourse to be made of each of their actioÌ„s but the same were to long to wryte The bearer shall tell you the manner which I would haue all my seruants to obserue for reapinge fruite of this holy worke Good night my friend And for that I know what pleasure yow will take heerof yow are the only man to whome I haue wrytten yt This 5. of May. 1600. Henry The superscription To my Cosyn the Duke of Espernon EXTRICT DV POSTSCRIPTVM DE LA LETTRE DE CELVY QVI enuoy a ceste Coppie dela lettre du Roy a Rome CHAP. VII Monsieur Iâ— vous enuoyé la coppie de la lettre du Roy qu'il a enuoyé a Monsieur d'Espernon sur la dispute de l'Euesque d'Eureux contre du Plessi-Mornay pour verifier son liure qui s'est de tout trouué faulx s'en est allé cacher comme vn regnard Dieu conduise tout a bonne fin a sa gloire salut des ames An extract of the Postscript of the letter of him that sent this coppy of the forsaid K. letter to the French Embassadour in Rome My Lord. I do send yow heere the coppy of the Kings letter wrytten to the Duke of Espernon about the disputation of the B. of Eureux against Plessis Mornay for iustifyinge of his booke found altogeather false and he is gone to hide him selfe like a Fox God conduct all to a good end for his glory and saluation of mens soules Thus much do wryte the King and his secretary the one to the Duke of Espernon the other to Monsieur Sylary Embassador in Rome both of them present at the conference The Kings letter as yow see is very substantiall yt seemeth his Maiestie was greatly moued himselfe by the seeing and hearing of this combatt For so much as he affirmeth so resolutely that yt was one of the greatest blowes that had byn geuen for the Church of God a long while for discouering the erroneous proceedings of Protestants The secretary also auoucheth as yow see the falshood found in Mornayes booke and that for shame therof he was gone to hide himselfe like a Fox Now shall yow heare three other letters relating more particularly the circumstances of this conference with the Acts successe therof though all very breifely in respect of the Acts themselues THE COPIE OF THE LETTER OF MONSIEVR PERON B. OF EVREVX to the L. Silary Embassadour for the K. of France in Rome the 10. of May 1600. CHAP. VIII My Lord. AT length the victory of the combat betwixt the L. Plessis and me remayneth to the Catholike Church and after many tergiuersations which he vsed for the space of 5. or 6. dayes at Fontayne-bleau I sent him on wednesday the third of May threescore falsifications taken out of his booke to begin the play withall for him to prepare himselfe to answere the next day Of them he chose out 19. the which he went told the King the next day that he had chosen forth examined and found true and that he would loose his life yf any one of them were proued to be falsely cited After dynner the same day in the same place he came forth in the presence of his Maiestie and of 7. or 8. Princes and of the L. Chancelour of France and other officers of the crowne and Counsellors of State Where first his Maiestie declared both by himselfe and by the L. Chancelour that he would not in any wise that in this confereÌ„ce should be handled any point of Catholike Religion wherof he doubted nothinge and knew also that the iudgment therof pertained vnto the Sea Apostolike but only of the particular busynes of the L. of Plessis whether he had falsified the texts of the Fathers or no I added that when Hunnericus K. of the Vandalâ—s would haue had the Catholiks dispute with the Arrians Eugenius Archbishopp of Carthage as Victor of Vtica rehearseth answered that he could not do yt without the consentment of other Bishopps chiefly of the Church of Rome which is head of all others that this my entring into the present conference was not for that I bare lesse respect vnto the Seat Apostolike then that holy Bishop did But because there was no questions of Religion heere to be discussed but only to shew the falsifications of the L. Plessis about the which I was well content to haue the iudgment of the assistants for as much as appertained to the knowledg of Grammer to witt whether the L. Plessis had corrupted the words of the authors or no but not as touching points of diuinity the which the K. Maiestie had already very wisely forbidden vs to treat for that he will not heerin follow the example of K. of Iuda which vsurped the incensour and the function of priesthood but rather of Constantyne Theodose and other religious Emperors in remittinge the decision of Ecclesiasticall matters vnto the Church This done we began to dispute I began to obiect vnto him those places which himselfe had chosen out amongst threescore sent to him by me the day before following therin the same order that he had taken in choosing them out the which all were conuinced of falshood in order as they were proposed sentence was pronounced against him vpon euery place by the heretiks themselues which assisted him there and all with one voyce condemned him The King in this conference hath shewed himselfe so wise so intelligent so affectionate so zealous taking vp the argument against him at euery occasion and pressing him by disputation and so conuincing him of diuers falshoods as he hath shewed manifestly his witt and affection towards the Catholike Religion admirable
these clauses that conteyne the principall point of all the speach was willfull fraud and falsification endeauouringe to make Saint Hierome to speake against himselfe about prayinge to Saints which he neuer meant Heere now Plessis being strayned as before ran to his ordinary shift of sayinge that S. Hierome spake not of dead Saints but of liuinge only which though it were euidently false as the Bishop shewed by other plaine words of S. Hierome in the same place and by Plessis himselfe that cyted this place as an antiâ—otum to other places of his against Vigilantius where Plessis himselfe confessed that he talketh of prayer to Saints deceased besides all this I say wherby this refuge was euideÌ„tly knowne to be but a shift the Bishop pressed him most with this that of what sort of Saints soeuer S. Hierome speaketh heere quicke or dead he speaketh not simply or absolutely that they cannot saue vs by their prayers but with this expresse condition twise repeated by him and left out by Plessis If we be negligent of our owne parts or as S. Chrysostome said before yf we rely wholy vpon them and do nothing of our selues Wherfore he prayed the iudges to giue sentence concerninge this place as of the former whervpon Plessis began to cauill againe and to say as he did in the former passage of S. Chrysostome that he alleaged not this place of Saint Hierome directly against Saints deceased but indirectly But the B. proued that neyther directly nor indirectly this place of S. Hierome made any thinge against prayers to Saints but rather for the same For he that saith that prayinge to Saints auayleth not him that is negligent of his owne part signifieth in effect that yf he be diligent he may be holpen therby which is S. Hieromes doctrine against Vigilantius as Plessey confesseth though he saith that he was then in choler but now out of choler when he spoke the contrary as he would haue him to seeme After this Plessis leapt to another place of S. Hierome in his coÌ„mentaryes vpon S. Paules epistles to the Corinthians where he saith That Saints shall not be able to help at the day of iudgment c. Which the Bishop expounded and graunted for that then there shal be no more place for prayer or intercession but euery one to receaue his reward yet he added further that this place of S. Hierome was brought into examination out of the order of those 19. that Plessis had chosen and that yf he would be content to continue the examination of this one page of Saint Hierome whence this place is drawne the B. offered to bynd himselfe to shew 4. notorious falsityes committed by him in this one page but Plessis refused this combat said that he would not interrupt the order sett downe already for examination of his 19. places aforesaid but yet both the King and rest of the auditory did well marke and note this offer made by the Bishopp and diuers tymes repeated by him and that the other durst not accept therof Wherfore the iudges being called vpon againe to giue sentence conferred togeather and with one consent gaue this verdict Que le passage auoit deu estre mis entier That this place or passage on S. Hierome ought to haue byn sett downe by Monsieur Plessis wholy and entyre as yt lay in the author and not mangled or dismembred as it was found to be And yow may imagine how Plessis blushed at this sentence The sixt place examined out of S. Cyrill about honouringe the holy Crosse. The sixt place was out of S. Cyrill cited by Monsieur Plessis pag. 223. of his booke in these words S. Cyrill answered the Emperour Iulian when he reproached Christians for honour done vnto the crosse that Christians did not giue adoration nor reuerence to the signe of the Crosse. So saith Plessis But the Bishopp charged him that the last words of this sentence to witt that Christians did not giue adoration nor reuerence to the signe of the Crosse were not in S. Cyrill and willed him to shew them Plessis answered that in deed they were not S. Cyrills owne words and therfore he did not put them in a different letter of quotation but yet that the sense of them was to be found in S. Cyrill The B. replyed that neyther the words nor sense were there and yet that Plessis pag. 89. of his booke against the Masse had sett downe the same thinge as of S. Cyrills owne words in a different letter of quotation thus Cyrill likewise reproached by Iulian the Emperour doth answere flattly that the ChristiaÌ„s did neither adore nor honour the signe of the Crosse. So as heerâ— yow see not only these words alleaged as S. Cyrills in a different letter but also often vrged by Plessis that for so much as he could not bring forth the words at least he should shew the sense therof in S. Cyrill Plessis answered that the sense might be gathered out of Cyrill in that Iulian the Apostata against whome he wrote obiectinge vnto him that the Christians adored the Crosse of Christ Cyrill did not answere that it was true which of likelihood he would haue done yf in those dayes Christians in deed had worshipped the Crosse. But to this the Bishop replyed that the consequeÌ„ce was not good for so much as Christian wryters of that tyme were wont to goe very reseruedly in vttering the points misteryes of our faith vnto pagaÌ„s though heere in effect Cyrill did confesse yt as presently shal be shewed for that he yeldeth the reason why they did yt But on the other side yt is a farre better argument to say Iulian the Apostata obiected that Christians adored the Crosse of Christ and painted the images therof vpon their foreheads vpon their dores and S. Cyrill denyeth yt not but endeauoureth to giue a reason why they did so Ergo it is more probable that Christians did worshipp the Crosse of Christ indeed in those dayes And heere the King tooke vp the argument againe sayinge that yt was very probable that Iulian would neuer haue obiected this to the Christians yf they had not done so indeed for otherwise he should haue byn laughed at by all Which speach of his Maiestie the B. coÌ„firmed by shewing how learned an Emperour Iulian the Apostata was and how he had byn brought vp from his youth in Christian Religion and could not be ignorant in so publike a matter as this and moreouer said the Bishop yf yt were true that S. Cyrill did reprehend the Emperour Iulian for charginge falsely Christians to worshipp the Crosse yt is not likely that other Christian Emperors followinge soone after as Iustinian and others would in their lawes haue called the same Adorandam honorandam verè crucem the Crosse that is truly to be honoured adored Which mention of Emperors being heard by the King he required presently that the books should
side began as hath byn said to enter into another cogitation to thinke whether yt were not best by this occasion to seeke out the truth of matters indeed and that without pertinacity or passion for so much as yt was a matter concerninge the eternall saluation or damnation of their soules And this happy course amonge others tooke as in part before yow haue vnderstood the aforsaid noble man of Normandy Monsieur Sainct-Mary du Mont who being a great Protestant before was first moued towards Catholike Religion partly by the Sermons of Monsieur Buchage brother to Duke Ioyeus made afterward a Capuchin friar as hath byn declared which Sermons were principally against the falsifications of Plessis in his booke against the Masse partly also by the sight of some of the said falsifications themselues shewed vnto him in priuate by the said B. of Eureux before the conference but he was fully conuerted by the trialll it selfe and became afterward a zealous Catholike But more notorious and admirable was the conuersion of the L. Fresnes Canay cheife president for the Protestant party in the parlament Chamber called Demy party in Languedocke chosen by Monsieur Plessis himselfe for chiefe deputy on his party for this conferēce who taking the same course in enforminge himselfe found matters so euident as he became a Catholike vpon the sight of this triall and that with such feruour as he would not be absolued secretly of his heresie before held as for respect vnto his dignity and place was offered but would needs abiure publikely in the hands of the B. of Paris and so he did being a very learned man in his profession at this day is Embassadour for his Christian Maiestie with the State of Venice where his wife in like manner the last yeare by his owne especiall meanes she being a Lady of much nobility was conuerted also both of them remayned most zealous Catholiks Which two examples of Monsieur Sainct-Mary and Mousieur President Fresnes both of them being learned and earnest Protestants all their life before did greatly mooue the King himselfe for his comfort and confirmation in Catholike Religion but no one thing so much as his being present at the forsaid Conference and so he is said to haue often confessed afterward for that he saw there that which he could neuer haue imagined to witt that men of learning iudgment would willfully for maintayninge of faction wryte and publish that which they must needs know in their consciences to be false He cōsidered that these 9. places there examined were picked out by Plessis himselfe of 60. sent him by the Bishop and that these 60. were but a parcell of 500. which the said B. had bound himselfe to exhibite in 10. dayes to be discussed and that by all probability the forsaid 9. were of the least falsified and easiest to be defended of all the rest at least wise of the first 60. for that otherwise Monsieur Plessis would not haue chosen them Wherfore hauinge seene by experience that no one of those 9. was able to be defended from plaine and willfull falshood he imagined what would fall out in the rest if the conference had gone forward and if all should passe as in these 9. throughout the 500. there ready to be exhibited yea in 3500. more which the Bishop said he had gathered out and offered to bynd himselfe to conuince them of no lesse falsity and imposture then those nyne and all this out of one boooke These things I say laid togeather his Maiestie had good cause to thinke what may be thought of that mans conscience that wryteth and printeth such a booke in matters of Religion Moreouer his Maiestie could not but remember what tales the said Plessis and other such fellowes had told him against Catholiks Catholike Religion for many yeares whilst he was yet a Protestant to witt that they had no truth on their side no antiquity noe true ancient authority but all was for them and their new pretended Religio◠He could not forgett also what sollemne protestations they were accustomed to make of their owne sincerity both in wrytinge and preachinge and especially Plessis in this last contētion about his booke before yt came to the tryall offering to leese his life and honour yea to burne his owne hand yf any one place were proued to be wittingly corrupted or falsified which yet was so euidently conuinced by the triall not in one only but in euery one of the nine places as no man of reason could deny yt and the deputyes of his owne party gaue sentence against him Wherfore this hauing so fallen out and the Bishop of Eureux protestinge of his side that the places of greatest corruption remayned yet behind aboue twenty fold more in number then those that had byn examined seing also the shamfull flight of Monsieur Plessis from the continuation of the combatt and the shamelesse discourse cast abroad by him without a name wherin many matters of fact well knowne to his Maiesty were denied affirmed or disguised according to passion most contrary to the knowne reall truth therof All these considerations I say many other concurring togeather and representing themselues to his Maiesties wisdome made him to feele infinite comfort in the happy resolution he had taken of being a Catholike and to contemne from that day forward all contentious wrytings of factious sectaryes that care not what they say or wryte so they may therby hould vp their sect and faction Neyther did this euent of Plessy Mornayes conferēce worke those effects only for the openinge his Maiesties eyes and vnderstanding in Religion but of many more besides throughout France wherof though I be not so particularly informed as many others bee yet diuers persons of marke could I name besides the former two that receaued like light grace from almighty God by the same meanes and of great Hugonots became good Catholiks as the L. Baron Saligniac Liefetennant for the K. of the countrey of Lymoge togeather with his wife daughter of the Chauncelour intituled Del Hospital and sister to the Archbishopp of Ais. The L. Baron du Bonneuald a great noble man in Lymosin togeather with another Baron of Gascoigne whose name occurreth not at this present though I haue seene the narration of his conuersion wrytten out of France Monsieur du Sansay Entendent ouer the Kings Finances in France Diuers cheefe learned men also and among them some Ministers as namely Monsieur Caiette late Minister and Preacher to the Kings sister marryed to the Prince of Loraine togeather with diuers of her cheefe officers amongst which was Monsieur du lac de Barn Monsieur Rebeul Monsieur Sponde th' elder two great learned men and another Sponde brother to the former no lesse learned who at this day hath the care of the Popes library in Rome togeather with a nephew of Iohn Caluyn conuerted entertayned like wise by his
Cyrill were not found in him leauing yt easy to the hearers saith he to inferre that the sense notwithstandinge was to be found in him Which is a great vntruth for that the sentence registred by all 4. secretaryes comprehendeth the whole passage in these words The passage cyted by Monsieur Plessis out of Cyrill is not found in Cyrill which sentence conteyneth as yow see both sense and words And it is a poore shift of Plessis to go about to help himselfe by so childish an inference as for that they gaue sentence that the words alleaged by him were not in Cyrill yt might be inferred that the sense was After this the Bishopp sheweth diuers other grosse vntruthes in this kind as namely that in reportinge the sentence of the Chancelour and deputyes vpon the last place examined out of Theodorete about Idolls he falsely peruerteth the same leauing out the principall important words of the said sentence to witt adored by Paynims and adored for Gods contrary to the faith of the records themselues vniformally taken by all 4. secretaryes then againe to excuse himselfe from a foule disgrace happened in the examination of the first place about the reall presence out of Scotus whose text Plessis could not read he telleth in his discourse this notable lye that the B. of Eureux had vsed a certayne fraudulent sleight to disgrace him which was to bring two editions of Scotus the one fayre to be read which he sent him ouernight with the 60. places to prepare himselfe the other he retayned with him of an euill print which he obtruded to him in the conference But this shamelesse fiction the Bishop refuteth first by the testimony of them that brought backe againe the bookes from Plessis house to the conference and then by the wittnesse of 4. seuerall Frenche gentlemen to witt Monsieur du Bertant du Beaulien du Berulle and du Salettes that came with him from Paris knew that he brought but one only edition of Scotus with him which was in folio of the print of Badius Ascensius in the yeare 1519. and lent vnto him by the college of Sorbone in Paris for this conference which booke being giuen to Plessis to verifie his place alleaged out of him he could not so much as read nor turne the booke for that there were some abreuiations therin after the manner of schoole-doctors and therby all the lookers on and hearers well perceaued that he was vtterly ignorāt in reading schoole-doctors though euery where for ostentation of learning he was accostomed to cyte them in his bookes And this shame Plessis had no other way to couer at that present before all the auditors but to say that he was not practised but in his owne bookes only though afterward vpon more deliberation he thought good to deuise this other shift of changinge the booke by the Bishopp which yet being so malitiously cōuinced of calumniation by the wittnesses before mentioned did exceedingly tend to Plessis discredit And this shall suffice for the first point of Plessis reply wherin yow see that for defence of his 9. places before conuicted of falsification he vttereth 9. other great vntruthes for doublinge the number As for the other two points of new shifts and recrimination I will remitt the Reader to the Bishop his owne refutation for them that vnderstand the french tongue and for the rest yt will not be hard to ghesse by example of this which we haue alleaged what manner of stuffe yt is which Plessis could alleage for his further defence in so manifest conuinced falsifications and yow shall heare presently what O. E. in England can say for him And yf yow find him by this little a man with out faith or spiritt of truth in his assertions then shall yt be wisdome to beware not only of this his booke against the Masse wherout so many falsifications haue byn gathered but of others also wrytten in the same spiritt and namely of one that for many yeares hath gone in English intituled of the Church which being smothely wrytten and stuffed out with great shew and ostentation of Scriptures Fathers Historyes and other such furniture hath dazeled the eyes of many as did also this other against the Masse vntill yt was sifted and examined by learned men But for the other in English I can assure the Reader that yt is a most deceytfull booke and may be well brother to this against the Masse And yt is now very neere twenty yeares gone that the late Earle of Lecester gaue one of them to a kinsman of his named Guilford to read for his satisfactiō in Religion who conferring the same with another learned gentleman a frend of mine desired that yt might be examined which my said frend began to do with such comodity of bookes as he could procure at that tyme and found so full stuffed with all kind of deceatfull impostures and falsifications as he remayned astonished therat and conferred the same with a learned Baron of the Realme now dead and he with another yet liuinge and neere to his Maiesties person who did all wonder at so notorious treachery though th'examē passed not through the greater part of the booke for that it was interrupted by some trouble fallinge to the examiner but he hath affirmed many times since and doth at this day that yt is incredible to beleeue what corrupt dealinge there is therin and exhorteth all those that haue meanes to try the truth of this his assertion which I cannot do at this present for that I haue not the booke by me yet I thought it conuenient to giue a note therof for stayinge of them that haue or may be deceaued therby and for styrringe vp of others to make this examen And so for this tyme we leaue Plessis to himselfe and to his shifts in France and shall passe ouer to consider what O. E. his aduocate can say for him in England WHAT O. E. OTHERWISE MATHEVV SVTCLIFFE HATH wrytten for defence of Plessis Mornay concerning the 9. places handled in the former Conference and how he committeth farre greater faultes then Plessis himselfe CHAP. V. HAVING pervsed what Monsieur Plessis hath byn able to say for himselfe both in the conference and after vpon better deliberation we must now examine briefly what our ould frend O. E. for vnder that vizard he masketh hitherto hath diuised for his defence For that my forsaid breife relation fallinge into his hands he thought yt to appertayne to his manhood as a martiall minister to proclayme himselfe champion in Plessis quarrell therby to fullfill the prouerbe that none so bold as blynd bayard and though he be not able to defend his owne head as after yow shall see from the same or like blowes which Plessis hath receaued yet will he needs be doing intrude himselfe for a shylde to the other and this with such violence or rather virrulency of speche raginge and rauinge at all those
base and vnworthy aduersaryes pleasure is saith he to contend with me about certayne small quyrks and questions about certayne pretended vntruthes and falsifications c. And againe Your honour shall perceaue the great weaknesse of our aduersaryes and the pouerty of the principall actors in the same vvho abandoninge the mayne points in controuersie begin now to picke quarrells at words allegations points quotations and other by-matters and ceasing to ioyne with vs and like diuines to argue and dispute fall to plaine calumniation and rayling Thus he And heere againe I doubt not but the Lord Vmpyre will laugh to heare Sutcliffe accoumpt the falsification of Fathers Doctors and auncient wryters and this both in words sense alleaging them expressely against their owne meaninge to be but quirkes quarrells and questions about words points quotations and other such by-matters as yf two contending about some great inheritance and the one obiectinge that his aduersary had falsifyed the euidences whereby the whole controuersy must be tryed the other should answere that these are but quirks and by-matters And this is the accoumpt which Maister Sutcliffe and his people do make of false or true dealinge or changinge choppinge alteringe or peruertinge the authors whome they alleage as yt maketh best for their purpose But we on the contrary side must heere professe as men bound to strict truth that we esteeme highly of these matters not only in cheefe points of controuersies the beleefe wherof concerneth our soules but euen in lesse matters also for that they discouer a badd mynd wicked conscience whersoeuer they are found wittingly and willingly comitted and yet are not we so rigorous in this point but that we do easily allow vnto Maister Sutcliffe that which in this epistle to Syr Robert he demandeth for himselfe sayinge Do what a man can yet may â—ther marginall notes be misplaced or words stand-disorderly or things be mistaken This I say we easily graunt neither was there euer I thinke any controuersie hitherto betweene vs about misplacinge of marginall notes or disorderly standinge of words so they altered not the true sense of the authors which yet yt hath pleased Maister Sutcliffe disorderly to bring in to the end he might seeme that the accusations laid against him are for such trifles but neither these trifles nor the mistakinge of matters themselues so yt be without fraud are vrged by vs against them but only where wilfull deceyt is euident and where the deceauer cannot morally be thought to haue byn ignorant of his deceyt These I say are the faults which we obiect vnto Maister Sutcliffe and his fellowes and not misplacing of marginall notes or mistandinge of words points or quotaetions nay we may ad a further degree of false dealinge that hath no excuse in the world which is that where the falshood is euideÌ„t and cannot be denyed nor by any probable meanes defended yet not to confesse the same nor to excuse yt by ignorance forgetfullnes trust vpon other men or by any like error but to continue and bolster out the same by other sleights and new frauds this I say is the highest degree of all falshood and impudency vsed as now yow haue seene both by Maister Plessis in his reply after his first confutation and much more by Maister Sutcliffe his aduocate in his broken defence and the like we shall see practised againe by him afterward in this Chapter vpon like occasions of defendinge himselfe and his owne wrytings Concerninge which wrytings he demauÌ„deth in his said epistle to Syr Robert Cecill as also in his preface to the reader a certaine priuiledge from the ciuill law which is that when diuers cases are proposed by one party in law to be admitted or excepted against by the other and that the other excepteth only against some and letteth passe the rest then yt is to be vnderstood saith the law that those which are not excepted against are admitted Which benefitt Maister Sutcliffe would haue allowed to his chalenge that is wheras E. O. hath excepted only against some 26. places of Fathers and Doctors corrupted and falsifyed by him all the rest besides these 26. might be held as free from corruption Yf lawyers say true saith he that exceptions confirme the rule in cases not excepted then hath my aduersary confirmed the mayne discourse against Persons and his adherents hauinge not said any thing vnto yt but only excepted against a few places wherof he taketh 13. to be vntruly alleaged and 13. to be falsifyed And againe in his preface to the reader yf he be not able to except against more places then 26. or ther about yt is cleere that I haue said true in the rest and that I haue argued and alleaged authorityes to good purpose So he And will not heere our iudge laugh againe thinke yow to see this poore man endeauour so diligently to authorize his booke by the accusations of his aduersary and by a priuiledge drawne from the Ciuill law The rule alleaged of exceptions doth hold only where some few cases are proposed to be excepted against by the aduerse party but it holdeth not in a mayne booke where the points are many and almost infinite that are handled and proposed and out of which is lawfull for any accuser to take his accusations where he will without authorizinge or ratifyinge the rest and in our common law of England no man can be ignorant but that yf one should be accused for example for stealinge of 5. sheepe and should acquitte himselfe therof yet this would not barre any other accuser that would afterward call him into tryall for hauing stolen fiftye more Wherfore Maister Sutcliffe can not shroud himselfe by this but that other men also may examine his chalenge besides E. O. as we haue seene that VV. R. hath done and gathered out an infinite huge heape of vntruthes and if I ghesse not amisse not much lesse then a hundred in one Chapter Wherfore seing Sutcliffe is so earnest to prouoke intreate aduersaryes to wryte against him yt is reason he prepare himselfe to answere all commers not to slipp away vnder the shaddow of a Ciuilian rule or priuiledge for so much as he is an Englishman consequently must be tryed by the common law of the land And this may suffice for this first part of his new worke standinge in epistles prefaces except yow would haue a breefe example represented yow heere at this very beginning of the manner of answering and shiftinge which he meaneth to vse afterwards in his whole discourse and therby know the man his talent euen at his first entrance Heare then how he answereth a speach of his aduersary touching the continuance of Catholike Religion My aduersary saith he calleth Popish Religion Catholike affirmeth it was plaÌ„ted heere by Gregory the great c. and that it was alwayes visible since Christ c. but he should do well to shew how true