Mother of the rest nay the whole Church There hath she her paterne from the Donatists of appropriating to her self the title priuiledges of the Church excluding all other from the hope of saluation So the Romanists cast into hel all the Christians of Greece Russia Armenia Syria Aethiopia because they refuse to be subiect to the tyranny of the pope as also the States kingdoms of Europe which haue freed themselues from their Aegyptiacall bondage That the Romanists abuse vs with pretences of antiquity vnitie vniuersalitie making the simple beleeue that al is antient which they professe and that the consent of all Ages is for them whereas it is easie to prooue that all the things wherein they differ from vs are nothing but nouelties and vncertainties that the greatest part of the Christian world hath been diuided from them for certaine hundreds of yeeres and more to that purpose which in that preface he promiseth and in the tractate prooueth To which booke me thinkes M. Fisher or some other of his pew-fellowes should vndertake in order proutiacet to make answer or else neuer to haue beene so hardie to cite that Author whose lines vpbraid them with iâ—abilitie or negligence so long as they suffer so learned and laborious a treatisely bent point blank against the walles of Rome to remain vnbattered Now to your alleuiation you say in that speech of yours concerning men not able by their owne abilities to finde out the infallible faith you meant not to imply that any were able of themselues without helpe of Gods grace to attaine the true faith I hope you meant not because I trust that you are not sunke so deepe into Pelagianisme Yet you should haue circumcised your lips and tongue and kept better the Apostles rule to hold fast the for me of sound words for what Christian eare can endure to heare of men able by their owne ability of wit or learning to find out faith Wit and learning I grant are Gods good gifts 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not to bee vnder-valued much lesse contemned yet let me tell you that wit and learning without grace such is the corruption of our nature rather hinder then further our conuersion as Saint Austen writes in his confessions not with inke but with teares and on the contrary grace without eminent wit or learning outstrips naked wit learning in our race to heauen Indocticoelum rapiunt et nos cum doctrinis nostris c. As for that which you adde that Visibility though alone it prooue not the true Church yet that it much helpeth to the proof thereof I much desire you to help me heere in shewing me how it much helpeth for Visibility is but a common accident and I finde no topick place in Aristotle ab vno accidente communi ad subiectum Suppose a meere naturall man were to choose his religion and his Church what will Visibility helpe him Besides all sorts of Christian Churches Iewish Synagogues Mahumetane and Gentile Congregations are visible will you say That is the truer Church which is more visible If you carrie it away from vs by that marke the Greek Church will carrie it away from you the Mahumetanes from the Greeke Christians and the Idolatrous Gentiles from all But this poynt hath bin handled before in my sixt eight Assertion touching the Visibility of the true Church therfore omitting all farther prosecution of this point and my proofe by Syllogisme I come now to iustifie my induction The Protestant Relation Paragraph the tenth touching the induction and breaking vp of the Conference The Protestant Church was so visible that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof may be produced in the first hundred yerees and second and third and fourth et sic de caeteris and so in the rest therefore it was so in all Ages First I name those of the first Age and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ blessed for euer c. M. Fisher. Name of all Ages or else you do nothing D. Featly I cannot name all at once Will you haue me name men of so many Ages at one breath c M. Fisher. You shall not begin at Christ and his Apostles D. Featly You are not to make my Induction I will begin with Christ and his Apostles c. M. Fisher. Name the rest in all Ages and then I will answer D. Featly First answer to the first Age and then I wil proceed to the second c. M. Fisher. I will not answer you any thing till you haue made your Catalogue D. Featly M. Fisher I charge you as you will answer it before Christ himselfe at the dreadfull day of iudgement to answer directly whether Christ and his Apostles taught our faith or yours c. Notwithstanding this deep Charge M. Fisher still refused to answer to the argument of instance in Christ and his Apostles c. Master FISHER'S Answer by a Counter-relation After this D. Featly named for the first Age our Lord and Sauiour Christ and his twelue Apostles and Saint Paul and Saint Ignatius After which he staied awhile as if he had studied for more Names but not remembring any more whom he would set down for the first Age he said These not denying others may serue for the first Age. Then turning to M. Fisher he said Let vs dispute of these No said M. Fisher name first of all Ages What said D. Featly Will you not dispute of Christ and his Apostlâ—es Yes said M. Fisher in due place but first name the rest in all ages and then I will answer you What said D. Featly Doo not Christ and his Apostles deserue the first place M. Fisher. I will not answer before you haue named the rest Then said D. Featly in a heat Well you will not dispute of Christ and his Apostles then you grant Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants And so instantly without expecting M. Fisher's Answer he turned himselfe to the Audience and said Hee grants Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants Whereupon diuers of the Audience made such a shout as if they had gotten a victory with such a noise as M. Fisher endeuouring to answer for a time could not be heard But he rising vp and with his hand and voice crauing silence made such as would heare him vnderstand how falsely D. Featly had slandered him to his face and either then or vpon some like occasion he said What may I expect behinde my back when you thus mis-report mee to my face And in this sort when many of the company were willing to depart D. Featly beeing called vpon as it seemed by some of his companions to goe away did arise and offer to be gone yet in his rising he turned to M. Fisher saying Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles or no To which M. Fisher said I will if you will stay and stretching out his hand hee took D.
moment and ground of the whole question Hee putteth the case that the debter tooke the two pieces out of the creditours purse Surely a blind or verie credulous creditor that would stand still till the debter picked his pocket O patience Good Sir Creditor if you can vpon your credit make good that those whom you intend by the two tendered pieces of coyne namely Christ and his Apostles are the proper legacy and riches of the Romane treasurie take vs your bondmen in stead of payment of the rest But if this field wherein this precious pearle lyeth bee by good title ours as I then would and at any time hereafter can proue I think vpon such conuiction you will haue small courage to clamour for the rest of your twentie Doe but looke on this coyne though loth and see whose image and superscription it carryeth is it not the liuely indeleble Character of our Sauiours Charter the Scriptures They are ours by Christ Christ ours by them The Roman pouch is so stuffed with Traditions so choaked with counterfait ouergilt Copper of new-minted Articles that Christ and his Apostles and Euangelists cannot bee admitted nay will not bee embased to bee mingled with such drosse But I wonder that you dwell so long vpon a money Similie I thought you had vowed pouerty and might not touch siluer I haue heard of some of your orders that if they touch coyne it blisters their hands as it is reported of a certaine Lady that if a Rose-leafe bee put vpon her hand as shee is asleep it will make it blister But it seemeth to mee that you are Theocritus his Fisher you fish for gold and if you are not wronged haue caught no small number of golden gudgeons in your net and transported them beyond the seas carrying Rem ad non res no smal stock to English Nunneries I had almost sayd Iesuitisses or Loyolasses And if you will needes haue a Similie from paying monie to illustrate this passage in the conference thus you may frame it Suppose a Catalogue for sixteene-hundred yeeres which haue runne since Christ to bee sixteen-hundred pound suppose the hundred yeeres to bee a hundred pound I by producing a Catalogue of visible Protestants in the first age lay downe a hundred pound of the summe and bid you tell it after me and then demand of you whether the summe bee right You answer that you will tell mee after you haue told the whole summe of 1600. pounds I presse you again againe to answer concerning this first summe whether it be right or no if it be right I promise to lay down al the rest in the like manner You answer as before Lay downe the rest or you shall not begin with the first next heap but with the last in coÌ„clusion I charge you as you wil answer it at your peril to your Master whose factor you pretend to bee to giue-ouer all cauilling plainly directly to answer me whether this first sum be right or not and when notwithstanding this deep charge you trifle cauill the witnesses who were to set their hands to my acquittaÌ„ce pul me away saying You shal deale no more with such a cauilling factor This is a true perfect embled of the breaking vp of the Conference wherewith I will breake vp my defence thereof The Protestant Relation Paragraph the eleuenth touching the issue of the Conference This Conference though it took not that progresse which was desired by reason of the Iesuites tergiuersation not permitting D. Featly to come to the ripenesse of any Argument yet it hath not beene fruitlesse for since that time the aforesaid M. Bugges came to Sir Humfrey Lynde and gaue him many thankes for the said meeting and assured him that hee was well resolued now of his Religion that hee saw plainely it was but the Iesuites bragging without proofes and whereas formerly by their sophisticall perswasions hee was in some doubt of the Church hee is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion that hee doth vtterly disclaime the Popish Priests company and their doctrine also Master FISHER'S Answer I haue cause to doubt that this which the Relator saith is not true for thereby hee maketh the old Gentleman to bee but of a weake capacity or of a very mutable nature for first I am sure there was no cause giuen in the Conference of any such effectuall resolution to bee made by the old Gentleman Secondly I cannot see when this speech should bee made by the Gentleman to Sir Humfrey If immediately after the Conference it would argue too much want of capacitie for if hee did but rightly conceiue the true state of the Question in which himselfe had especially desired to bee satisfied as I verily hope hee did hee might easily haue marked the insufficiencie of D. Featly his diuerting proofes which also were so answered as the audience for want of satisfaction in them vrged him to leaue off and 〈◊〉 produce names of Protestants in all Ages the which producing of names beeing so oft and earnestly required to bee done in all Ages and yet beeing onely pretended and that most falsely to be done for one Age and the Conference beeing so abruptly left off by D. Featly before he would goe forward to name men in other Ages especially in Ages before Luther at the question required any meane capacitie might see that the Question in which the old Gentleman desired to bee satisfied was not fully answered nor consequently hee satisfied Moreouer the same Gentleman beeing present when the Earle of Warwick told M. Fisher that D. Featly should at another time come againe to giue names of Protestants in other Ages hee might easily and doubtlesse did vnderstand that as yet 〈◊〉 in all Ages were not giuen nor consequently the Question satisfied in which hee expected Answer Furthermore presently after hee went away from the Conference hee told M. Fisher himselfe that hee was glad that at the next meeting his Question should bee answered which shewed that as yet he did not conceiue it to be answered Lastly diuers dates after all the trouble and stirre was past which was made about the Conference the old Gentleman was not â—ore solute a Protestant as the Relator pretendeth for meeting M. Fisher and M Sweet hee desired them to giue him a Catalogue of names of Professors of the 〈…〉 that if after this the Doctors should not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants hee should dislike their cause Which Catalogue M. Fisher and M. Sweet haue ready for him but will not deliuer till he get the Doctors to make theirs ready that hee bring to them the Doctors Catâ—logue with one hand and receiue theirs with the others to deliuer to the Doctors All that can bee suspected is that in the very time of the said stir when the old Gentleman either was or feared to bee called in question it may perhaps bee that he might say those words which the Relator mentioneth But this if
calling it bee inuisible yet in respect of the outward calling to and profession of sauing faith it is alwaies more or lesse visible The elect are visible men and exist in the visible congregations of Christians as the apple in the ey or a Diamond in a Ring or the soule in the body As Athens is called the Greece of Greece so may wee tearme them the Church of the Church for in respect of them principally are those glorious titles giuen and gracious promises made to the Church which are registred in holy Scripture The third assertion which trencheth neer vpon our question The Church in a larger notion comprehendeth all those who eternally professe the true worship of God in Christ. Thus Lactantius defineth the Church Catholica Ecclesia est quae verum Dei cultum retinet hic est fons veritatis hoc est domicilium fidei hoc Templum Dei quo si quis non intrarit vel a quo si quit exiuerit à spe vitae ac salutis aeternae alienus est c. That is the Catholique Church which retaines the true worship of God This is the Fountaine of truth this the House of faith this is the Temple of God he that shall not enter heerein or shall depart hence is farre from the hope of life and eternall saluation Of the Church in this acception our Sauiours words are to bee vnderstood If hee refuse to heare the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen or Publican And Saint Lukes Then pleased it the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church c. And Saint Paul 's Despiseyee the Church of God c And in his Epistle to the Ephesians Vnto him bee glory in the Church c. And to Timothy How shall hee take care of the Church of God The Church in this notion is in Scripture compared to a field wherein are tares with the wheat a floore wherein is chaffe with graine a net wherein are sweet fish and rotten an house in which are precious vessels and vile to the Ark in which were cleane and vncleane beasts To the Church taken in this sense Christ directeth vs Tell the Church And Saint Paul That thou maist knowe how thou oughtest to behaue thy self in the House of God which is the Church of the liuing God And Saint Cyprian Hee hath no right to the rewards of Christ who leaueth the Church of Christ hee is a stranger hee is a profane person for hee cannot haue God to his Father who hath not the Church for his Mother And Saint Augustine I will not account thee a Christian vnlesse I see thee in the Church The fourth assertion The Church in this notion as it extends to all that professe the true Religion and participate in the pledges of saluation was euer is and shall be in some degree visible to the end of the world That it hath euer beene hitherto visible all Histories accord and that it shall so continue to the worlds end our Sauiours words are our warrant Goe yee and teach all nations c. andle I am with you alwaies euen vnto the end of the world For the continuance of Gods Word the Prophet Esay is most peremptory This is my couenant with thee saith the Lord c. My words which I haue put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed from hence-foorth for euer And Christs words are as direct for the Sacraments that they shall bee administred till his second comming As oft as yee eat of this Bread and drink of this Cup yee shew foorth the Lords death till hee come And lastly S. Paul 's words are as expresse for the Ministery He gaue some Apostles some Prophets c. till wee all come in the vnity of the faith c. It is true Antichrist shall make great hauocke of the Church and there shall be such a falling away that Christ at his second comming shall scarce finde faith on the earth false prophets and false Christs shall arise and seduce if it were possible the elect but that is not possible hell-gates shall neuer so farre preuaile against the Church Whatsoeuer becommeth of hypocrites and temporizers it is certaine that the elect shall remaine in it and retaine the 〈◊〉 faith and if they retaine it they will also pâ—ofessed it 〈◊〉 for with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse 〈◊〉 with the tongue confession is made vnto saluation Sainâ— Austen thus stoppeth the mouthes of the â—onatists What is that that thou sayest The Church 〈◊〉 already perished and gone out of all Nations 〈◊〉 therefore the Gospell is preached that it may bee in all Nations therefore euen vnto the end of the world 〈◊〉 Church shall bee in all Nations I may saue the labour of heaping more testimonies to confirme this point because M. Fisher in his reflection on the Conference spendeth many lines and much labour in fortifying it as a strong bulwark as hee imagineth against vs. I conclude therefore with Saint Ambrose Ecclesia 〈◊〉 potest effluere non potest The Church may bee euershadowed it cannot quite faile or bee 〈◊〉 The fift assertion The militant visible Church is not alwaies equally visible but sometimes it is more visible sometimes it is lesse It was more visible in the Prophet Dauid 's dayes when he sung In Iurie is God knowne his name is great in Israel then it was in the time that Hosea prophecies of Israel shall remain many daies without a King and without a sacrifice It was more visible in the daies Malachie foreshews of From the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe there of my name shall be great among the Gentiles then in the daies Eliah complaineth of I euen I am left alone The Church was more visible in the daies of Salomon when she is compared to a Queene honourably attended then in the daies Saint Iohn foretelleth of when shee is compared to a Woman flying into the wildernesse Shee was more visible in the daies Esay fortelleth of Kings shall bee thy nursing Fathers and Queenes thy nursing mothers then in the daies of Antichrists tyrannie when Kings shall giue their Kingdome to the beast In regard of this mutable estate of the militant Church Micah giueth her this Motto Reioyce not ouer mee O my enemy though I fall I shall rise againe And Salomon likeneth her to the Moone My Loue is faire as the Moone To which ground Saint Austen alluding interpreteth Obscuram Lunam Ecclesiam the Moone in the Eclipse or darkned the Church in trouble and persecution And Saint Ambrose Ecclesia vt Luna defectus habet et orâ—us frequentes The Church as the Moone hath her often waxings and wainings And in his Epistle The Moone it selfe whereby in the
are not pleadable giue mee leaue M. Fisher to speake to you Iesuites in the words of Athanasius If you are the Disciples of the Scriptures and Christs scholars walke with vs by them if you wil talk extrauagantly and diuersly from the Scriptures why do you contend with vs who dare not to speak or heare any thing without them or different from them our Lord saying If you abide in my sayings you shall bee my Disciples Master FISHER'S Preface Neuerthelesse because those who bee partially affected or of meane capacity may as it is to be doubted diuers doe conceiue speak amisse of this matter to the disgrace of the Catholique cause and the preiudice of their owne and other mens soules I have thought is meet to set out a true relation of the occasion progresse and issue of this Conference and this in such sort as diuers falshoods of the Protestant Relator may be easily perceiued and the weaknesse of the Protestant cause may be euidently discouered which is also so bad as it seemeth it cannot bee supported but by setting out such lying relations The Answer Nescio quo pacto vox tua facta mea est You haue said that which I should haue said When Saint Hierom iustly taxed Sabinian a Deacon for deflouring a Nun Sabinian reflects vpon Saint Hierom and laies foule aspersions of lewdnes vpon him but the difference was that which S. Hierom charged Sabinian with which was per veram convictionem by true conuiction but that which Sabinian charged Saint Hierom with was per falsam confictionem by false conifiction or forged calumniation Thus the case stands betweene the Protestant Relatour and you Master Fisher. Hee laies crimen falsi to your charge per veram conuictionem by true conuiction hee proues falshood by you by vnanswerable arguments drawne from euident circumstances and your owne confession and multitude of witnesses beyond all exception see the Attestation Whereas you obiect falshood to him it is per falsam confictionem you falsly impose falshood vpon him you say that there is falsehood in his relation but you proue no such thing Your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 heere cannot carry it first because the particulars you deny neerly touch your credit and reputation therefore it stands you vpon to deny them Negas haec facta turpis enim et periculosa est confessio you deny matters of fact alleadged against you in the Conference because you cannot with safety or credit confesse them Besides this legall exception against your witnesse in your owne case you are a Frier and therefore according to the ancient English Prouerb a L. with a rime to it Thirdly you are a Iesuite and therefore vnlesse you will swarue from the rule of the prime men Ring-leaders of your society you maintain the wholsome and profitable vse of an equiuocating Lie What doo I or any man knowe whether when you speak of diuerse false-hoods of the Protestant Relator you reserue not in your minde Fained by me or deuised by me to saue my credit and promote the Catholique Cause But let vs see how you turn the Lie vpon vs. Master FISHER'S Preface The sight and consideration whereof maketh wee more easily beleeue that to bee true which I haue read viz. that A Decree was made by Diuines in Geneua defining it lawfull to lie for the honour or credit of the Gospell and that conformably to this Decree an English Minister being told that one of his Puâ—-fellows had made Lies in stead of Proofs of his Protestant Religion did answer saying Hee cannot lie too much in this cause it must needs be a weak and bad cause that needeth to be supported by such weak and bad shifts Answer I assent to your conclusion It must needs bee a false religion that is supported with such lies as you haue now heer giuen vs a brace True Religion neither is supported by lies nor any way supports lies Let vs see then whether your faith or ours leanes on these base and beggerly crooches Certainely neither Iacobus de Voragine nor Surius nor Copgraue nor Turseline nor any other Author of your golden Legends seruing to support your doctrines of Transubstantiation Inuocation of Saints Worship of Images and Reliques Purgatory and Pilgrimages c. can be proued to be a Protestant He that wrote Beza's Recantation and another who since set forth the late Lord Bishop of Londons Legacie was farre from a Protestant Name me any Protestant who euer defended pias fraudes or euer propugned this Tenet Fides non est seruanda Haereticis Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks The Fathers of the Councell of Constance who contrary to the faith and safe conduct giuen by the Emperour Sigismund burnt Iohn Hus and Hierom of Prague neuer learned from the Schoole of Geneua or the English Pue you speak of to break faith for the maintenance of the Romish-Catholique faith and the destruction of the opposers thereof The first that brake the Oath of Alleageance in heauen was the Diuell and by it becam a Diuell and the first that brake promise on the earth was likewise the Diuell Gen. 3. whose scholars they shew themselues who teach that Promises euen confirmed by oathes the strongest sinewes which hold all humane society together may be either cut asunder by Papall Dispensation or cunningly vntied by Iesuiticall Equiuocation Pray tell me in good earnest Sprang the doctrine of Equiuocation whereby you defend that a man may affirm nay sweare an vntruth in words and make it vp by a mentall reseruation from vs or from you I cannot finde either Nanarrus or Gregory de Valentia or Southwell or Tolet or Parsons among the Catalogue of Protestant Writers These vpholders of Equiuocation and many other whose names deserue to be buried in euerlasting obliuion with the ancient Pâ—iscilianists whose old damnable doctrine touching the lawfull vse of lying they refine with a new Burnish to make it more saleable neuer took a Copie of the supposed Decree of Geneua nor gathered Notes from the English Reader you speak of No Protestants are so ambitious as to steale from your Garlands the fairest Flowres wherewith you adorne your heads and pens If any such Flowres growe in our Gardens either they die of themselues or are carefully weeded out I appeal to all the Confessions Catechisms Expositions on the Commandements Systems of Diuinity Common-places seuerall Tractates wherein either directly and professedly or occasionally they fall on the Subject wee are now about whether they condemn not all lying and false-hood open or couered with mentall reseruation or without to the deep pit of hell from whence they came From which pit Iacobus de Voragine may very well be thought to take his name for raking hell for so many lying miracles and fables wherewith hee hath stuffed the liues of Saints And now hauing laid the Dog at your doore let vs see how you beat him from you to ours Your wisdome and graue fatherhood
hold the ancient Primitiue faith wee will acknowledge that we haue no right vnto them nor will we desire to be admitted to dispute out of them Therefore vntill M. Fisher or some other shall prooue by some other marks than bare alleaging of the Popes names locally succeeding one another in the Sea of Rome that they are the heires of the Apostles we haue a most iust cause to try the title of the true Church with them and bring the last Will and Testament of our Lord and Master for our prime Euidence and surest Deed to make good our plea. Of the fift Head 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or vain repetitions For the exemplification of this rare point of eloquence bequeathed to you as a Legacy in euery line and sentence of Battus his Will and Testament I need not alleage as I haue done before particular leaues and pages for you might far better haue intituled your whole book A Battologie than an Apologie or An 〈◊〉 pamphlet intituled The Fisher catched in his own Net A judicious friend of mine to whom I sent your Book at the first comming out in Print and demanded of him his iudgement of it returned it back again in the words of the Poet I lle referre aliter saepe solebatidem Another said M. Fisher's legible Tautologies in this printed Defense were as irksome and tedious as his audible dilatory Answers and Teâ—giuersations in the Conference A third said He was sure that M. Fisher aduised with the Poet Martial who professeth that rather than his Book should perish by reason of the finall 〈◊〉 of it hee would fill vp as many pages as 〈◊〉 cobbles verses with that Catholique Pateh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo ne pereat breâ—ibus mihi charta liâ—ellis Dicatur potiùs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To repeat particularly your vain repetitions would bee to commit the fault I reprehend in you euen in the reprehension thereof and I might feare to heare an allusion to that of Platâ— against Diogenes Fastum caleas sed 〈…〉 so I might be thought to cry down a Cuckoo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And therefore passing them in 〈◊〉 from the contents of your Book I hasten to 〈◊〉 Text. Touching the occasion and issue of the Conference Protestant Relation EDVVARD BVGS Esquire about the age of 70. yeers being lately sick was sollicited by some Papists then about him to forsake the protestant faith telling him There was no hope of saluation without the Church There was no Catholike Church but theirs Master FIHSER's Answer How farre this parcell of the relation is true or false I will not stand to discusse as not yet knowing how or by whom the afore-said Gentle-man came first to doubt of his Church and consequently of his religion c. Doctor FEATLYE's Reply Although I might take occasion by the counter-relation of the occasion of this conference to reueale diuers mysteries of the reserued Art of Iesuitical frauds falsehoods for as they say in a Lamprey so in this whole treatise froÌ„ the beginning to the ending there is a string of poyson throughout yet because the occasioÌ„ of the conference but little concernes the cause less me in sparing the Iesuites blame and penance I will spare mine owne paines and the Readers 〈◊〉 who I perswade my selfe will not much regard how wee came into the field but how wee acquitted our selues vpon the place for the papers sent to the old Gentle-man which impudently thrust themselues vpon vs at euerie turne in the occasion Page 7. and 〈…〉 Conference and afterwards in the 〈◊〉 Page 48. and 49. and 60. Although they 〈◊〉 been met withall by Master Rogers Master Walker and diuers other and stabbed thorow and thorow againe with their 〈…〉 shall haue ouer and aboue my 〈…〉 Asteriskes when my tractate of the visibilitiâ—â—â— the Church which hath laine by mee in darknes for the space of a yeere shall vpon some good occasion become visible and see the light As for the relation of matter of fact so farre as concerneth the occasion of this Conference where the Protestants Relation and the Iesuites walke fairely together there needs no conteâ—ting Answer where they clash or 〈◊〉 one another I can answer no otherwise theÌ„ the Oâ—ator doth in the like kinde Accusatar dicit Marcus Sâ—â—â—rus negat Vtri â—redemus A Iesuit disparageth som passages in the Relation a worthie Knight of knowne integrity who procured the meeting for the satisfaction of his kinsman Master 〈◊〉 auoweth them as followeth 〈…〉 The answer of S. Humfrey Lynde touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation about the occasion and issue of the Conference excepted against by the Iesuite COncerning the occasion of the Conference I aâ—ow that according to his Maiesties command I did set downe the truth of the occasion briefely and faithfully to my best remembrance as is alreadie extant in print And whereas fol. 4. Master Fisher saith hee set downe two questions with my consent and the old Gentlemans the first whereof being allowed by both of vs Master Fisher wrote It is granted I affirme that in processe of discourse I then allowed that the Church is more or lesse visible at all times but that I did grant a necessity of such visibilitie as hee intendeth or that I obserued what M. Fishers marginall note was I vtterly denie And wheras page 12. Master Fisher complaineth of the inequalitie of the Auditorie compared with the few which Master Fisher brought To this I say that vpon my credit I did not acquaint four persons with the meeting more then those that I inuited to dinner Howsoeuer I doubt not but that hee is rather glad he had no more Auditours of his owne side and by this time is more asham'd of his cause then of the paucitie of his parties thâ—re present And yet I will let him know for the small acquaintance I haue among the Papists I was able to number full twentie of that side present And verily had I purposedly drawn thither so much company the Iesuites ought me thanks for it as therein deseruing well of the Catholique cause by bringing a troup of spectators to view the foyle of our own side in a question reputed by the Iesuites so disaduantageous to vs wherin forsooth the Protestants as is triumphed page 33. are so farre from being able to produce three professors in euerie age tâ—at they are not able to name one to say nothing of Christ and his Apostles for they were not worthy to bee answered not one Author no not one Actor that dares oppose two such learned Iesuites in such a triall Again page 16. whereas it is said there was an vnseasonable motion made by Sir Humfrey Linde to Master Sweet I answer that I was induced for certaine reasons then to mooue Master Sweet to dispute vpon Transubstantiation First the standers by did well perceyue that the old man Master Fisher was much woorried and the Auditory much wearied with his saying nothing and writing
little to the purpose Secondly a Romified Lady being present and being troubled with those dull and weake answers did then intreat me to interpose and dispute of Transubstantiation for her instruction And lastly I adde that I had proposed this question to Master Sweet at my house 8. weekes before where his leasure then would not giue him leaue to dispute of it and now I conceiued he was wel armed for a second encounter Againe where it is related in the Conference that I told M. Buggs that the Church was in Christ and his Apostles c. The Iesuite saith in the margent there A very weake and insufficient answer as is shewed hereafter Surely the Iesuite had a weake memorie and forgot a farther Reply or else other answer hee could not make to disproue it Neither by Master Fishers leaue was it so weake and insufficient an answer as hee gaue me when vpon his first meeting falling into conference about the Reall presence which Master Fisher would prooue out of these words Hot est corpus meuÌ„ I answerd that Scotus Cameracensis and Bellarmine were of opinion that that Text was not strong enough to enforce Transubstantiation To which obiection hee gaue this Answer as a full satisfaction to the standers-by What care I for Bellarmine or Scotus or Cameracensis Againe by Master Sweets leaue it was not so weake and insufficient an answer as when I propounded to him foure questions viz. The worship of Images Praier in an vnknowne tongue Communion in one kinde and Transubstantiation with this assurance in the presence of Recusants that if he could proue either all or but any one of those held by the ancient Fathers in the Primitiue Church according to that forme of doctrine prescribed in the Councel of Trent I would then subscribe to Popery All his answer was that hee brought a booke that would proue them all So for that time I was content hee should bee saued by his booke But Doctor Featly in whose hands hee is now will not let him escape so easily but calling him into the inner barre will finde that non legit vt Clericus At that time Master Sweet farther added that hee for his part had other businesse and could not intend to argue with mee about those questions If his superior had heard him certainly hee would haue enioyned him penance for neglecting so faiâ—e an opportunitie of conuerting such an Hereticke as hee takes mee to bee hee knowes there ought to bee no businesse pretended where there had been a possibility to make a proselyte Lastly concerning the issue of the Conference I auow and protest that old Master Bugs came then to me and gaue mee thankes in the same roome before his departure and told mee that he well perceiued it was be the great brags of the aduersaries for their Church that hee well perceiued they could say but little for it and withall hee did acknowledge himselfe to bee so well satisfied at that time that he professed vnto mee that if his sonne would not leaue his religion and the priests company he would leaue him c. HVMFREY LYNDE The Protestant Relation Paragraph the first touching the entry into the Conference DOctor White and D. Featly beeing inuited to dinner by Sir Humfrey Lynde and staying awhile after had notice giuen them that M. Fisher and M. Sweet Iesuites were in the next room ready to conferre with them touching a Question set downe by M. Fisher vnder his owne hand in these words viz. First Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible and especially in the Ages going before Luther and secondly Whether the names of such visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors This Question beeing deliuered to the parties aboue-named and it beeing notified vnto them that there were certaine persons who had beene sollicited and remaining doubtfull in Religion desired satisfaction especially in this point they were perswaded to haue some speech with the Iesuites touching this point the rather because the Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers and disperse them in secret in which they vaunt that no Protestant Minister dare encounter them in this point Master Fisher his Answer First any man reading this parcel would be induced to think that D. White D. Featly had neuer had notice before for what end they were inuited to dinner or for what end they were to meete with the Iesuites but that they were on the sudden summâ—ned to this Conference without any preparation or knowledge of the Question which not to be so is euidently conuinced partly by that which is already said partly by that which I am after to say Secondly this Relator would make his Reader beleeue that M. Fisher vnder his owne hand had set downe the words of the Question distinguished with the expresse figure of 2. which is not so for M. Fisher did not write any such figure of 2. in the middle of the Question nor did not meane to make any more then 〈◊〉 onely entire Question as Sir Humfrey himselfe had desired Thirdly he seemeth willing to perswade that Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers which is not true Doctor Featly his Reply The Heathen accounted it an ominous thing offendere in limine to stumble as a man is going out a-doores in lifting his legge ouer the threshold You do so M. Fisher you stumble at the first setting your foote out a-doore and which is farre worse you stumble at three strawes The first is that forsooth any man reading this parcell would beleeue that D. White and my selfe were on the sudden summoned to this Conference And what if he should beleeue so What doth this aduaÌ„tage our cause or preiudice yours It matters not much how wee came to this encounter but how we came off Yet are there no words in the Relation which imply any such thing that wee came sudden or vnprouided nay whosoeuer reades the first Chapter touching the occasion of the Conference cannot but perceiue that wee had notice of it before and came prouided The truth is for mine owne part I knew of it two daies and no more before the meeting and I excepted against the day appointed as beeing too neere and sudden for a man to prepare either to oppose or answer in so spacious and â—ast a Question 〈◊〉 from Christ to Lâ—ther yet beeing ouer-intreated to be there as an Assistanâ— onely in the 〈◊〉 yeelded The second straw you stumbled at is That the Relator would make the Reader beleeue that M. Fisher put a figure of 2. at the second part of his Question And what if the Reader did so beleeue It is certaine that there is a second 〈◊〉 in your Question And what 〈◊〉 then had it beene to set before the second Vtrum the figure 2 Howsoeuer there was no fault in the Protestant Relaâ—our but in the Printer who mistooke the interrogatiue point in the copy for the figure 2. In the
some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to be a member of the visible Church It is a true rule in Philosophy Vehemens sensibile corrumpit sensum the bright light of a Demonstration so buzzardeth you that you see not where you are nor knowe what you are about I am so farre from affirming that inward faith without outward profession maketh a visible member of Christs Church that from inward faith I inferre necessarily ex consequenti outward profession which as I sayd in the Conference makes a member of the visible Church Doo you grant the consequence or deny it If you grant it my Argument proceedeth if you deny it confirmabit pro me vester Aristoteles your great Clerke Cardinall Bellarmine makes good the consequence in this manner Qui non confitentur fidem sed eâ in corde retentâ exteriùs profitentur perfidiam et idololatriam non sunt boni nec saluantur cùm ad Roman 10. dicat Apostolus Corde creditur ad iustitiam ore autem fit confessio ad salutem et Mat. 10. Omnis qui negauerit me coram hominibus c. They are not good men nor shall bee saued who do not confesse the faith but keeping it in their hearts outwardly professe perfidiousnesse and idolatry For the Apostle Rom. 10. saith With the heart man beleeueth to righteousnes but with the tongue man confesseth to saluation And Mathew 10. Whosoeuer denieth me before men him wil I deny before my Father which is in heauen Let Master Fisher therefore looke back vpon my Argument and demonstrate to me though à posteriori what Academicall learning taught him to deny it to bee a demonstration à priori The Protestant Relation Paragraph the ninth touching a testimony alleaged by Master Fisher out of Doctor Field Doctor Featly That Church whose faith c. But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue Catholick faith once giuen to the Saints Ergo. M. Fisher. I answer the Minor If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this proposition bee considered as it must bee as related to the first Question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended to weet to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the Visibility of the Church is first to bee shewed before the truth of Doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speake you of those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out faith Is any man able by his owne ability without the help of diuine grace Secondly what helpeth the Visibility to confirme the truth of the Church Visibility indeed prooues a Church but not the true Church Heere M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer Whereunto D. Featly promised Answer should bee made when it came to their turne to answer now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher. Master FISHER his Answer These words either were not spoken or M. Fisher did not regard them beeing in the midst of his Answer in which he went on shewing the necessity of a visible Church by a saying of D. Fields viz. Seeing the controuersies of Religion at this day are so many in number and so intricate in nature that few haue time and leasure fewer strength of wit and vnderstanding to examine them what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to seeke out which among all the Societies of men in the world is that Spouse of Christ the Church of the liuing God which is the pillar of the Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her direction and rest in her Iudgement M. Fisher therefore I say beeing busily speaking this did not regard what D. Featly did then say but might easily haue answered first that he neuer meant that any were able of themselues without help of Gods grace to attaine the true faith which hindreth not but that some may haue that ability of wit and learning by which they can better examine controuersies of faith then those that want these abilities Secondly although Visibility alone doe not prooue the true Church yet it supposing Gods promises that the true Church shall be alwaies visible much helpeth and want of Visibility in any one Age prooueth a company not to bee the true Church Doctor FEATLY'S Reply This parcell of your Answer containeth in it an allegation out of D. Field and an alleuiation or mitigation of a speech of yours sauouring of Pelagianisme To your allegation out of D. Field I answer Mitte quod scio Die quod rogo D. Fields speech I acknowledge which is very pertinent to his end but nothing to yours that it is requisite for all Christians especially the weaker to fly to the Church and hide themselues vnder her wings to preserue them from the danger of Romish Kites as D. Field prudently obserueth so no Protestant to my knowledge denieth Our Nouices and Catechumeni are taught as to honor God their Father so also the Church their Mother Now because the Whore of Babylon beareth her selfe as if shee were the Spouse of Christ and true Mother of all Christians it is most behoouefull to all those that haue care of the health of their soules to distinguish their true Mother from a false harlot the sincere milke and wholsome brests of the one from the poysoned dugs of the other to which end D. Fields Treatise of the Church is a singular help which when I reade mee thinks I see that strong wrestler Iritarius so much innobled by Pliny qui rectos â—t transuersos celatim toto còrpore habuit neruos who had double sinnewes running acrosse ouer all his body so able so sinewie a Writer is D. Field who hauing well traced true antiquity doth in that whole Treatise take vp your owne weapons and conquereth you with them hee takes away your strongest harnesse in which you trust I meane the Catholique Church proouing it to bee ours not yours To the authority of Scriptures which I here beginne at hee addeth the consent of the Church of the liuing God the pillar of truth in whose determination and Communion both wee and you are to rest But doe you M. Fisher in earnest or with mentall reseruation appeale to D. Fields iudgement Me thinks you draw the latch as if you meant to enter into the penetralia Clozet of that work of the Church If you bee willing so to doe I will leade you into the Entrie Turne me but the page ouer you shall finde before the circuit of the sentence alleaged by you be ended a Writ of Error sued against that Church which wil needs be the Mistresse and