AN ANSVVER OF A TRVE CHRISTIAN TO THE PROVDE CHALLENGE OF A counterfet Catholike By VVilliam Fulke Doctor in diuinitie Imprinted at London by Thomas Vautrollier dwelling in the Blacke Friers 1577. To the Christian Reader THIS short treatise gentle Reader hath lyen by me neare hand or altogether tenne yeres space vvritten at the request of a godly learned friend of myne in aunsvver to a proud challenge of a Papist against the Protestant VVhich though at the first and many yeares after I determined not to publish supposing the same challeÌ„ge to haue ben priuate or in fevve mens handes yet novv of late that I haue seene it in diuerse godly gentlemens handes to vvhom it hath bene deliuered by Papistes belike to peruert them and of vvhom also I haue bene desired to auÌ„svver it and am further credibly informed that the same is in print esteemed of many ignorant Papistes to be so vnansvverable that although it hath bin protested by gentlemen of great vvorship and credit that they haue seene the auÌ„svvere therof in vvriting yet they vvil not beleue that any man dare set his penne to the paper once to attempte the matter I haue novve thought good to put it in print as it vvas vvritteÌ„ at the first Nothing douting by Gods help but I shall be able to stand to the defence if the Challenger vvill proceede to mainteyne his challenge any longer And vvhereas the same of late hath bene ioyned vvith my confutation of the doctrine of purgatory and yet is desired of many to be set forth in seuerall because the argument is more generall it is thought good to satisfie their desire to spare their exspenses that being resolued in the matter of purgatory doe yet stagger in the challenge of the Church The breuity that I haue vsed as I vnderstand is misliked of some men vvhich vvoulde haue vvished a larger discourse but seeing the Challenger requireth shortnes if this that is vsed be sufficient to satisfie his demaunds or any of them a longer treatise vvere but superfluous If he thinke him selfe not throughly aunsvvered declare the same in all or in part that vvhich is novve omitted shall then God vvilling be supplied In the meane time vse this gentle Reader and fare vvell in the Lorde The faultes of this impression are thus to be amended The first figure signifieth the page the second the line Pag. 3. line 35. Lithuania reade Lithuanda 5.3 vvriting r. vvritinges 10.10 the scripture reade the booke of scripture 13.17 then reade thou and line 19. you reade thou 15. line the laste Tâ—â—erius reade Liberius 19.4 you reade the and line 10. Ca. line 58. reade Carolines 8. and line 19. Mercamas r. Marranias 22.9 fauour reade honor â—3 26 the prince reade the printers 24.1 put out and. 25.9 not for his r. for his 29.10 vnitie of minde r. vnitie of faith minde 30.3 in the places aboue rehearsed in diuerse places of his epistles a. lib. 3. epist. 14. and 15.16 c. 41.30 Rhenes r. Rhemes 49.5 the the r. that the. the 12. r. the Catho c. 52.13 in Brytish reade in the Brytish 63.14 about the articles r. about the chiefest articles 64.20 put out that hilde and the 24. here rea sore 67.21 vvhich can not rea vvhich you can not 68.4 in a name reade in a manner 69.4 prorsus opinemur r. prorsus non opinemur and 34. vniuersally r. vniuersalitie and 36 vvhich you do r. vvhich you do not 70.17 proponeÌ„da r. praeponeÌ„da 22. in a r. in the. 24. vvhen r. vvheÌ„ the. 71.20 vvhere rÄ™a vvere and the 22. to reade in 78.26 that you savv a bastard church r. that you being a bastard church haue 87.34 Commentualls rea Conuentualles 91.32 that he rea then he 92.30 cultiued r. coÌ„tinued 97. â— your reade youres 99.13 there rea therefore 14. vinci reade vâ—icè AN ANSVVER OF A TRVE CHRISTIAN TO A COVNTERFAIT CATHOLIKE The proposition of the Aduersarie CHrist did commit at his departure hence the testimony of that truth for which he died and the conuersion of the Nations to the beleefe in him to the true church of God which then stoode principally and almost onely in the persons of the Apostles and a fewe more that by their preachings and those afterward of their calling the Christian religion might be planted in all Nations beginning at Ierusalem and so proceeding to the coastes and corners of the earth AN ANSVVERE TO THE PROPOSITION I Graunt that our Sauiour Christ at his departure hence commaunded his Apostles as principal members of his Church though not the greatest part of it to preach the doctrine which he confirmed by his death vnto all nations beginning at Ierusalem and so forth according to his saying Goe therefore and teach all Nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost Teaching them to obserue all thinges what so euer I haue commaunded you Matth. 28. Whereuppon I chalenge the Papist that if he be able to proue that the doctrine of poperie is all that trueth and nothing but that trueth for which Christ dyed and which he commaunded the Apostles to teach I will acknowledge the popish church to be the Church of Christ The first article conteyneth 3. demandes 1 First I aske of the protestant what Church that was which conuerted all these cuntries that be now Christian to the faith of Christ IF you meane by Christians true Christians and by the faith of Christ the true faith of Christ I answere only the true Church of Christ hath had the worde of God and sacraments as meanes which God vseth to subdue al nations vnto the obedience of the faith as was the primitiue Church of the Apostles which hath continued vnto this daye by succession not of personnes and places but of faith and truth wherefore if the Papist can proue that we holde not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ But if by Christians and Christian faith you meane all them that professe the name of Christ in the whole worlde I aunswere that the true Church of Christ did not conuert them all for in Aethiopia there are yet people conuerted by the false apostles which taught circumcision and obseruation of the lawe in which heresie they continue vnto this day and it is manifest by all histories that the nations of the Alanes Gothes and Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians 2 And let him shew vnto me that euer his Church conuerted any people or lande in the earth from Idolatrie or Gentility or Iudaisme to the true Religion of Christ or that this his fayth was taught to any Nation in steede of true Christianity VVE are members of that Church which conuerted all landes in the earth that are conuerted from Idolatry Gentility Iudaisme or heresie to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme
that the Apostles taught none other faith in steede of true Christiantie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the worde of God And at this daye the most parte of Europe is conuerted from Idolatrie heresie and Antichristianitie vnto the same true faith that we mainteine as in England Scotland Ireland France Germany Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia by publike authoritie in Spaigne and Italie a great numbre vnder persecution and tyrannie Also of the Iewes no small numbre are conuerted to our religion since the rising vp of the Gospell in our dayes 3 Or any Church but the common Catholike Church to haue don that and I recant BEcause you meane by the common Catholike not the true Catholike but the popish church First I denie that euer the popish church conuerted any people to the true faith Secondly I denie that the popish church hath conuerted all nations to the profession of Christ For it is shewed before that the false Apostles and Arians conuerted some nations to the profession of Christes name but yet to false religion And it is also manifest by histories that the Grecians whome the papistes counte no parte of their church but schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all vnto the profession of the name of Christ which yet continue in their religion being neither the true faith nor yet popish religion As for the popish church as it is certeine that it hath peruerted and corrupted all partes of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion so it shal be harde for the papistes to proue that it hath conuerted any Nation from Gentility to the popish religion except some partes of Germanie and them by force of armes rather than by preaching and teaching as appeareth by the conuersion of Liuonia Anno Domini 1200. of Prussia Anno Domini 1254. and of Lithuania Anno Domini 1386. wherefore I conclude that seeing I haue shewed that our Church holding the true doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all nations to true religion and that the popish church hath not conuerted any people to true religion nor all people to the profession of the name of Christ this chalenger whosoeuer he be do the recant The second article conteyneth 4. demandes 1 I aske of him what Church it was which hath induced the Christian people through the whole worlde to geue most humble credit in all points to the holy bookes of the Byble I Aunswere it was the Church of Christ and not the Popish church which hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleued of all true Christians where soeuer they be although it be the office of the holy Ghost to open the hartes of men and to forme them that they may beleue the scripture to be true like as it is the office of the scripture or worde of God to trie and examine whether it be the spirite of God that perswadeth vs to beleue any thing so the spirite beareth witnesse to the worde and the worde to the spirite As for the popish church it coulde not induce the Christian people to geue credit to the scripture in all pointes because she is contrarie to the scripture in many pointes and euen in the cheefest pointes of Christian Religion namely in pointes concerning the glorie of God and the saluation of mankinde geuing the glory of God to dead men and dumbe Images and denying the mercy of God pourchased by the onely sacrifice of Christes death to be the onely cause of mans saluation Finally seeing it is manifest by the aunswere to the first article that the popish church did not conuerte all nations to the profession of the Christian faith it is euident thereby that the popish church did not induce all them that are called Christians to geue credit to the bookes of the holy Bible as this chalenger woulde haue it to be thought 2 VVhat Church hath had the discerning seuering of them from other writinges of all sortes THe Church of Christ hath not an absolute authority to allow or refuse bookes of the scripture but a iudgment to discerne true writinge from counterfaicts the word of God of infallible verity from the writing of men which might erre this iudgement she hath not of her selfe but of the holy Ghost as for the popish Church it can not be said to haue this iudgemēt of discerning the scripture of God from other writings not only because she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonical bookes of the scripture from the Apocrypha writings as appereth by receauing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. but also because she is so presumptuous as to compel men to beleue that Customes and traditions writinges of doctors decrees of Popes and Councells are equall with the authoritie of God his worde yea are of force to alter and change the lawe of God and the institution of Christ set forth vnto vs in the scripture And although she boast that she receaueth all the bookes of scripture yet this proueth no more that she is the Church of Christ than was the churches of the Arrians Donatistes Nouatians Euthychans other heretikes which receiued the Bible as well as the Popish church 3 VVhat Church hath had the custodie of them and most safely hath preserued them for the necessary vse of God his people and from the corruption of aduersaries as well of Iewes as heretikes of all sortes THe prouidence of God hath alwayes preserued the Scripture both from the violence of tyrants from the falshoode of heretikes and hath neuer suffred the true Church to be destitute of the necessarie vse thereof But the popish church hath not kept the scripture for the necessary vse of the people which hath so kept it in an vnknowen tongue that the people coulde haue no vse much lesse the necessary vse thereof wherefore if this be a note of the Catholike Church to kepe the worde of God for the necessarie vse of God his people it is plaine that the popish church is not the Catholike Church which hath kept the scripture so that God his people coulde haue no vse thereof And if the only custodie of the scripture from corruption of heretikes be a sure note of the Church why is not the Greeke Church the Catholike Church which vnto this day hath kept the scripture as safely as the popish church why are not other Estern Churches of Asia which neuer acknowledged the Pope or popish religion true Churches which likewise haue preserued the scripture as we haue seen of late that the newe Testament is printed in the Syrian tongue at themperours charges for the encrease of Christian faith among them And finally why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully than euer the Papistes And because they boast of safe preseruing of the scriptures
weake and beggarly elementes because they are destitute of God his worde which onely is able to geue them strength and estimation as for your festiuities in the honour of creatures we doe likewise abhorre them we honour the Sainctes as S. Augustine sayeth for imitation but we do not worship them for Religion De vera Religione cap. 55. Where he also saith Quare honoramus eos charitate non seruitute We honor them with loue and not with seruice And as he doth often affirme that it is Idolatry to builde churches in the honour of Sainctes so is it as great Idolatry to institute festiuall dayes in the fauour of the same Sainctes As for the festiuall dayes that were vsed in the primitiue Church although they might haue bene omitted without any hurt of Christian Religion yet were they not kept in the honour of creatures as they are of the Papistes but only for the memorie of the Martyrs and other Saincts that their good life might be followed Your fastes are also abhominable for they are nothing else but abstinence from meates created of God to be receiued with thankesgeuing which S. Paule affirmeth to be the doctrine of Diuells 1. Tim. 4. Also your distinctions and varieties of seruice because they consiste most of blasphemous prayers to dead Sainctes and sometimes to damned spirites with foolish lessons responses versicles c. Lewde lies and vncertaine tales which you reade and sing as God his seruice they are all abhominable In vaine do they worship me saith our Sauiour Christ teaching for doctrine the preceptes of men Math. 15. Also it was decreed in the Councell of Laodicea the 59. chapter that nothing should be song or reade in the Church but the Canonicall bookes of holy Scripture wherefore if you demande whence your ceremonies festiuall dayes fastes and varieties of seruice did proceede I aunswere plainely out of the bottomles pit of hell 2 From whence did all thinges yet indifferently for most part obserued and allowed on both sides from whence did they proceede IF you had vttered what thinges you meane that are so indifferently allowed on both sides we might better haue aunswered but seeing you haue not we must coniecture what you meane if you meane any thinge that is allowed without controuersie on both sides it did either proceede from the scripture of God or from the primitiue Church or else it a thing meerely indifferent but if it haue no grounde in holy Scripture nor example of the primitiue Church nor iudged meerely indifferent it not indifferently obserued for the most parte nor yet allowed on both sides 2 And if it can be proued that the Protestants Congregation or any other Church but ours hath instituted and ordered all these or any of these for the comelinesse and honour of God his house I recant I Haue aunswered before that the Protestants Congregation geueth you leaue to bragge that you are the inuentors of all these Idolatrous superstitions false worshipping of God and yet because you offer so liberally to recant if it can be proued that any Church but yours hath instituted and ordered all these thinges you shall he are what can be saide First your great doctor Durande plainely affirmeth that many of your ceremonies and solemnities had not their first institution of your church but were taken of the Iewes or Gentiles And it may easily be proued that many of your ceremonies were instituted of heretikes as your holy water which you say you vse to put men in minde of their baptisme was deriued of the heretikes called Hemerobaptistae which were baptized euery daye Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 1. cap. 17. Of the Ossenes you tooke the great estimation of water salt oyle breade c. and vse to sweare by them as they did Epiph. contra Ossenes 19. Of the same heretikes you receiued the superstition of reliques for they vsed to take the spittle and other filth from the bodies of Marthys and Marthana which were of the seede of Elxai that is great Sainctes with them and vsed them to cure diseases as Erasmus witnesseth at Canterbury were kept the clowtes that Thomas Becket did occupy to wipe of his sweate and to blow his nose on which were kissed as holy reliques and thought also to be holsom for sicke folkes of the same heretikes you learned to commande the people to pray in an vnknowene tongue as Elxai the great Pope of those heretikes sayde Nemo quaerat interpretationem sed solum in oratione haec dicat Let no man seeke the interpretation but onely saye these wordes in his prayer Which wordes were in a strange tong either the Hebrue or the Arabike Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 1. haeres 19. Likewise the Marcosians when they baptized vsed to speake certaine Hebrue wordes that the ignorant people might maruell the more at them as you doe in Baptisme Ephata c. Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 3. haer 34. To make the Images of Christ and of the Apostles and to sense them you learned of the heretikes called Gnostici and CarpocratirÄ™ Epip lib. 1. Tom. 2. in the preface Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 2. haer 27. and Irenaeus lib. 1. cap. 23. Of the Valentinians you learned to haue in price the signe of the crosse and to abuse the places of scripture for the same superstitious vse as God forbidde that I shoulde reioice but in the crosse of Christ c. Irenaeus lib. 1. cap. 1. Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 2. haeres 31. Of the Heracleonites you learned to annoynte men at the point of death with oyle and balme and to cast water vpon dead men with inuocations Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres 36. Of the Cayanes you learned to call vpon Angels Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres 38. Of the Marcionistes you learned to giue women leaue to baptize Ep. lib. 1. Tom. Haer. 42. George Bishop of Alexandria inuented beares to carry deade corpses charging all men to vse them for his owne aduantage as doe you Papistes your bearing clothes other toyes for funerall pompes Ep. lib. 3. Tom. 1. Haer. 76. Of the Colliridianes you learned to make images of the virgine Marie worship them her with offering of candells c. as they did of cakes c. Ep. lib. 3. Haer. 79. Of the Messalians or Martirians you learned to shaue your beardes and to let your lockes grow long Ep. lib. 3. Haer. 80. Of the Pharizees you receaued your superstitious masking garments which you call amictus dalmaticus and pallia as witnesseth Epiphanius in his epistle to Acacius and Paulus Last of all what say you to the ceremonies festiuities fastes and solemnities vsed in the Greeke Church and in the other Oriental Churches if they be sufficient to make their church Catholike why doe you count them heretikes and Schismatikes if they be not sufficient why doe you reason of the institution of the like to proue your Church Catholike You see that proued which you desired play the honest man therfore and recant
succession according to persons or places you are neuer able to proue that any such thing was promised to the Church that we should shew you the performance there of in our Church Otherwise we doubt not but God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers that haue instructed his Church in the necessarie poinctes of Christian Religion Although the worlde and the church of Antichrist did not alwayes see them 2 And is able to name you by the histories of all ages the notable personnes of all the forsaide states in their gouernment and ministerie A Gaine I answere you that you are not able to name me any text of scripture by which you can proue that al these offices must haue perpetual cōtinuance in the church of Christ nor yet that any of them should kepe an ordinarie succession of place or persons But contrariwise seeing it was prophecied that the church should flie into the wildernes that is be driuen out of the sight and knowledge of the wicked and be so narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a longe season it were a token our church were not the true church if we could name such notable persons as you speake of in all ages florishing in their gouernment and ministerie And it is a good argument that the Popish church is not the church of Christe because it was neuer hidden sence it first sprang vp in so much that you can name all the notable persons in all ages in their gouernment and ministerie and especially the succession of Popes you can reherse in order vpon your fingers in which beadroole neuerthelesse you must name many tyrants many traytors one whore many whoremongers many Sodomites many murtherers many poysenors many sorcerers and Necromancers and from Boniface the third all blasphemous heretikes and Antichristes But our church which hath not had so many registers chroniclers and remembrancers hath perhaps fewer but yet honester men to name we can name Peter Paule Mathew Iohn c. Marke Luke Timothe Agabus Epaphras c. Instinus Irenaeus Cyprianus Athanasius Hylarius Ambrosius Augustinus c. Gyldas Bertramus Marsilius de Padua Ioan. de Ganduno Bruno Andagauensis VVickleue Iohn Hus Hierome of Prage c. With the first namely Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets we consent wholly in all pointes of doctrine with the rest in the cheefe and most substantiall articles of faith alwayes agreeing with any man so farre as he agreeth with the worde of God. 3 And if he can proue vnto me that their Church hath neuer lacked the same appointed officers or that any Church or Congregatiō but ours hath kept that charge thē I recant FOr some of those officers I haue twise aunswered before that they were not ordeined to continue alwaies with the church wherefore they are not to be exacted of vs but such officers as are necessary for the conseruation of God his people in the vnitie of faith and the knowledge of Christ our Church hath neuer lacked although in time of the great defection and Apostasie whereof S. Paule doth prophesie 2. thess. 2. there were but few as there were but fewe members of Christ his Church notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time the remembraunce of all their names is not come vnto vs And although we could rehearse in order as many successions in our Church as the papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures as S. Augustine sayth in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae against the Donatistes cap. 16. Sed vtrum ipsi Ecclesiam teneant non nisi diuinarum Scripturarum canonicis libris ostendant quia nec nos propterea dicimus nobis credere oportere quod Ecclesiae sumus quia ipsam quam tenemus commendauit Mileuitanus Optatus vel Mediolanensis Ambrosius vel alij innumerabiles nostrae communionis Episcopi c. But whether they holde the Church or no let them shew none otherwise but by the canonicall bookes of holy Scripture for we our selues doe not therefore say that men must beleeue vs that we are in the Church because we hold the same Churche which Optatus of Mileuitum hath commended or Ambrose of Millayn or innumerable Bishops of our communion Euen so we require at the Papistes handes that shewe them selues to holde the Church not by succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures for although we did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly succession on our side we would not require men to beleue vs but onely because we proue the doctrine of our Church by the authoritie of the Scriptures But as for the popish church neyther hath nor euer had any of those officers which S. Paule speaketh of for Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets she can chalenge by no reason seing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writings in steede of pastors reachers she hath wolues dūme dogges or false prophets which either teach not at all or else teach the doctrine of deuills the dreames of men And further I would desire none other place in all the Scripture to ouerthrow the popish Hierarchie which is the greatest glory of their Church then this place of Paule Ephes 4. he speaketh of Apostles Euangelists Prophets Pastors and teachers But where are Popes Cardinalls popish archbishops Bishops Preestes Deacōs Subdeacons Exorcistes Cantors Acolyts Ostiares Monkes Friars Chanōs Nunnes c. Wherfore I cōclude that all these popish orders are no offices in the Church of Christ And especially seeing the Apostle both in this place Eph. 4. and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of minde he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth which might be very profitable as the Papists say to mainteine this vnity for if there had bene any such office appoynted of God S. Paule in no wise woulde haue omitted it especially when it made so notably for the confirmation of his purpose which was vnitie To conclude if it be sufficient or any thing worth to rehearse the names of them that haue orderly succeded in all ages in the bishops sees in an outwarde face of the Church the Greeke Church is able to name as many as the Latine Church and in as orderly succession Wherefore if you be as ready to performe as to promise you recant The nynth article may be deuided into nyne demaundes 1 And for the necessary vse and execution of the foresayd offices they must further be asked what Sacramentes the Protestants ministred for the space of a thousand yeares togither in which they confesse their congregations to haue bene neare or else wholy hidden THey ministred those Sacramentes which Christ did institute namely the Sacrament of baptisme and the Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ at such times as the cruell tyrannie of you Papistes did not hinder them to come togither for such purposes 2 VVhat correction they kept and discipline
for offenders THey did vse such discipline as was vsed in S. Cyprians time when persecution hindered not the free course of it As he doth often complaine in the places aboue rehearsed They did admonish secretly before witnesses and when persecution stayed them not they did also excommunicate 3 To whome they did preach their Fayth TO such as woulde geue them hearing as VVickleue to the Englishmen Iohn Hus to the Bohemians VValdo to the Frenchmen and so of the rest 4 How did they reproue heresies THey reproued heresies by the worde of God and patient sufferinge of your tyrannie the one you may reade in their workes that are yet extant of VVickleue Bertrame Hus c. The other in histories of your owne writers 5 VVhere did their principall Pastors sit in Iudgement I Might aske you where the Apostles did sit in iudgement and you are neuer able to shew me for I reade as one sayth that they stoode often to be Iudged but I neuer reade that they sat in iudgement vpon others And so I aunswere of the principall Pastors of our Church especially in time of persecution 6 VVhere did they gather as in Councells to try the trueth of doubtfull matters AS God gaue them respight from your tyrannie they had conference one with an other and as for doubtes they tried them by the worde of God and not by number of voyces as you do in your councells as for the places where they met is nothing at all materiall at Prage at Lyons at Merindol c. 7 How might Christian men iustly offended with some of their brethern haue sought out your officers or Congregation to make complainct of him YOu are void of all reason that in a persecuted church will require all thinges to be so formall and orderly as in time of peace and quietnes I could choke you with putting like cases of your Church If a number of Papistes be carried prisoners into Barbarie or Turkey what Sacraments what discipline what Iudgement haue they among them if one be offended with his brother how shall he come to your officers or to your Church to complaine In such cases where the ordinary authoritie of the Church is hindred by persecution or otherwise the rule of S. Paule 1. Cor. 5. may serue and ought to be obserued If any that is called a brother be a fornicator or couetous or an Idolater or a rayler or a drunkard or an extorcioner with such one eate not So that if a Christian be iustly offended with his brother he ought to absteine from his company And if he may haue ordinary authoritie he may complaine further 8 Or how if it had liked any man to haue ben baptized of them or to haue receiued the communion of them or to haue bene married of them or to haue ioyned them selues in Fayth and Religion to them how might I say that secret contemptible and vnknowne company be founde in this case HE must haue sought them out as well as he could if he had bene perswaded that they onely ministred the Sacraments Ecclesiasticall rites sincerely according to the word of God it were no great matter for him to find them seing he knew by whom he was so perswaded and of them might also be informed where he should haue them I maruell you are not ashamed to demaūd these questions as though it were materiall to discusse whether of vs hath the Church to haue the Church so manifest that euery man may see it Doe you not remember how many schismes haue bene euen in the popish church more thē twenty and sometime two Popes at once sometime three sometime fower which of them should a simple Papist take for head of the Church especially in the 22. schisme which lasted 39. yeares one Pope sitting at Rome an other at Auinion either hauing his court either hauing and making Cardinals either cursing other Or in the 23. schisme when the question was of one of the highest pointes in all popery and is not yet throughly decided among them Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or the Councell aboue the Pope In the time of these schismes how might a man haue founde out which was the true Church which was Christes vicare in earth which had the right Sacraments and Sacramentalls to which Popes court should he appeale where did the principall Pastors sit in iudgement c. How should councells be gathered which Pope shoulde confirme their actes c When you are able to aunswere these questions for your owne church then you may better require them of ours As for that secrete contemptible and vnknowne company of our Church in the sight of the world was neuerthelesse manifest glorious and knowen to our Sauiour Christ and the liuely members of his body 9 If therefore you can shew me that any man euer sought Iustice or knowledge of trueth sacrament or faith or any helpe of Saluation at the Protestants secret and close congregation or any other where but of Gods knowen Catholike Church I recant ALthough it be to litle purpose to aunswere this demande because it is no reason to say these thinges hath not bene because chronicles make no mention of them yet that all men maye see how farre you ouershoot your selfe I wil partely satisfie your request Charles the great sought knowledge of the trueth of the sacrament of Bertramus Iohn Duke of Lancaster and diuers other noble men were instructed in our Religion by VVickleue The land of Bohemia was conuerted by Iohn Hus and Hieronym of Prage and sought the sacraments of them Finally you alwayes forget the Greeke church which you do not accompt parte of the Catholike church and yet you can not deny but men haue sought Iustice sacramentes faith c. of it Therefore if a man might trust you vpon your worde you recant The 10. article conteyneth in effect but 2. demandes 1 Moreouer I aske whether for all these many hundreth of yeares or euer els before there was any temporall Prince or Potentate that offered to be vnder God a minister of Iustice and an executor of Christian lawes in the right of your Congregation that euer maintained by lawes Ciuill or other your Faith and Congregation and I recant BEfore the general defection it is an easy matter to name you the Emperours and Princes which both offered to be ministers of Iustice in the right of our church and also mainteyned our faith and Congregation by Ciuill lawes as Constantine the greate Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Archadius Honorius Marcianus Iustinianus Mauricius and diuers other But when the kinges of the earth had committed fornication with the great whore of Babylon as the holy Ghost foresheweth Apoc. 17. and 18. it is no preiudice to our cause if we can not shew any of them that haue mainteined our Religion Yet because you make so gentle an offer vpon the triall of such a matter which is of small force either to the hurt of our cause or the
for the speciall intent of the builders was not prepared in all sortes for Popish practises Although I could name many yet for examples sake I name Pantheon a church in Rome prepared by the speciall and onely intent of the builders for Cybelle the great mother of the gods and for all false gods of the heathen which now is called the church of Mary and Alhalowes Then this church with many other in Rome and other places being monuments of the faith and religion of the Paganes and not of yours except yours and theirs be all one as they are very like you are bounde by your promise to recant The 15. article conteyneth in effect 3. demandes 1 Againe name any one company of men in the Christen world that in all articles of Faith be in one meaning and belefe IT is an easie matter to name diuers companies agreeing in one meaning beliefe as the church of the Grecians the church of the Aethiopians the church of the Chaldeans Moscouites c. But especially the whole company of Protestantes in Europe doe agree in all necessary articles of true faith by which we are iustified 2 Or in thinges where they doubt be contented to submit their seuerall meaninge to the iudgement of their Superiours THe Greeke church in doubtes will be ruled by the Patriarch of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall churches by their cheefe Patriarches and bishops And the Protestants in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiours so farre as their superiors are ruled by Gods his worde 3 And to that communion and companie wherof they be name any companie of men agreeing and thus humbly affected in Christes Religion sauing the blessed fellowship and members of the Catholike communion and I recant TO the communion and company of the Grecians I name the Moscouites and Russians agreeing in Religion and so humbly affected and these are not of the fellowship that you call the Catholike communion Among the Protestants to the church of Saxonie I name the church of Dennemarcke or to the church of Heluetia the church of France or to the church of England the church of Scotlande but so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the Truth which must be tried onely by God his worde And seeing none of these are of the Popish communiō if your promise be any thing worth you must recant The 16. article conteyneth one demande and one chalenge Furthermore name any one man that is confessed on both sides by the iudgement of the world to be holy and learned a member of the true Church in what age soeuer you list sence Christes time and proue him to haue bene in all articles of Faith of the Protestants meaninge SEeing you geue so large scope I will name S. Paule who I thinke is cōfessed on both sides to be holy and learned and a member of the true Church whome I can proue by his writinges that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it woulde requier a whole volume if I shoulde proue euery particular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaninge thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea if I bring not the aduersaries them selues to acknowledge in the ende him to be wholy against their doctrine in diuers of articles of great importance and therefore that he coulde not be of their church I recant YOu shall neuer bring vs neither in the beginning nor in the end to acknowledged that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our Faith but we agree wholy with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane will not be afraide to vtter Forasmuch as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church which was hardly kept out while they liued as we maye learne by the Epistle to the Corinthians you thinke that we dare not depende vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depende onely vppon Gods worde But where you saye there is none but he dissenteth from vs in diuers articles of great importance you saye vntruely for you are not able to proue that Iustinus Martyr or Irenaeus two of the most ancient authenticall writers that the Church next vnto the Apostles had are against vs in any point of doctrine wherein we differ from you Yet are there certaine errors in them which neither you nor we allow as is touched before in the answere to the 11. article 1. deman But they are both wholly against you in diuers articles of your doctrine and namely in transubstantiatiō which is one of the greatest articles of Poperie as Irenaeus in the 34. cap. of his 4. booke Contrahaereses Quemadmodum enim qui est a terra panis c. Euen as the breade which is of the earth after it hath receyued the inuocation of God is not now common breade but the Eucharistie or breade of thankes geuing consisting of two thinges earthly heauenly so our bodies receyuing the Eucharistie are not now corruptible hauing hope of resurrection Here you see plainely that Irenaeus affirmeth the sacrament after consecration to consist of the earthly substance of breade which maye better be vnderstoode when we know that he reasoneth against such heretikes as denied the world to be made by God saying that he woulde neuer haue made so great a mysterie of bread which is a creature of the world if the worlde had not bene made by him Iustinus in his second Apologie to the Emperour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. We doe not receiue these thinges as common breade and a common cuppe but euen as Iesus Christ our Sauiour was incarnate by the worde of God and tooke vpon him flesh and bloude for our saluation So we are taught that this meate for which thankes is geuen by the worde of prayer from him of which our fleshe and bloude are nourished by transmutation is the fleshe and bloude of Iesus that was incarnate Here he plainely affirmeth that the substance of the Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of our bodies Therfore it remaineth still after the consecration The other writers of later yeares as they haue some errors which neither you nor we doe allow in them so we are not afraid to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for inuocation of Sainctes prayer for the dead and diuerse superstitious and superfluous ceremonies yet not so addict to these nor ioyned with such absurdities as yours are But for the chiefe pointes of Christian Religion and the foundation of our faith that is for the honour of God the offices of Christ Redemption Iustification Satisfaction the fruites of Christ his passion Grace faith workes authoritie of God his word authoritie of