Authority of the Church as being to decide Controversies of Faith Art. 20. and this is not to ordain or enforce any thing to be believ'd that is against the Scripture But whether that which it decides be against or according to Scripture this every man is to decide again by his own private Reason They maintain the Authority of General Councils But because these may err Art. 21. their Decrees have neither Strength nor Authority unless it may be declar'd that they be taken out of Holy Scripture But whether de facto they be taken out of Scripture or no this every Private Man must judge for himself And this Dr. Burnet asserts positively in his Exam. of Meth. p. 82. The Principle of Protestants with relation to the majority even in a General Council is That when any Doctrines are establish'd or condemn'd upon the Authorities of the Scriptures those who differ from them and do think that the Council misunderstood the Scriptures are bound to suspect themselves a little and to review the matter with greater application Yet if they are requir'd to profess that they believe opinions which they think false if they were never so inconsiderable no man ought to go against his Conscience And if any Synod of Protestants has decreed any thing contrary to this in so far they have departed from the Protestant Principles But the whole matter is more fully express'd by the Author of the Discourse before mentioned Concerning a Judge of Controversy Who p. 11. at the bottom clears it thus If you ask whose Judgment ought to take place the Judgment of the Church or of every private Christian I answer says he and mark it The Judgment of the Church of necessity must take place as to external Government to determine what shall be profess'd and practis'd in her Communion and no private Christian has any thing to do in these matters But when the Question is What is Right or Wrong True or False in what we may obey and in what not Here every Private Christian who will not believe without understanding nor follow his Guides blindfold must judge for himself and 't is as much as his Soul is worth to judge right Don't you see here there 's no Authority so Great and Safe amongst them but what is to be subject to the Censure of every Private Christian And tho' there be the Name of such a thing as a Church yet let that Command prescribe and ordain what it will to be receiv'd as the Truth and Faith of Christ 't is not That is to be obey'd or believ'd but being esteem'd as a piece of Formality not to be relied on every Man when he thinks fit must set himself up above Church and Authority and ee'n judge for himself Is not here every Controversy left to the decision of the Private Spirit And under the Notion of a Church a gate open'd to all the Fanaticisms and Quakerisms in the World By the Creed all Christians are bound to Believe the Holy Catholic Church And St. Paul Heb. 13. v. 7. commands all to Obey and Submit to those that are over them and this not only as to External Government but likewise as to Truth and Belief and therefore says he v. 7. Whose Faith follow But here you see tho' your Divines maintain the Authority of a Church yet there 's no Obligation on any Members of submitting to it as to any Point of Faith They must acknowledge it indeed as to the Governing or Politic part But as to the Christian or Believing part here every Christian as to what he is to obey and what not is to judge for himself And pray now what do's all this end in but the Private Spirit Can it desire any fairer Plea than this Certainly this their Church were it the Catholic Church the Ground and Pillar of Truth 't would not thus be commendably left to be over-rul'd by every Private Man's Reason There would not be this liberty for every one to run astray from it by preferring their own Judgment before the Decision and Judgment of the Church 'T was said heretofore and we know by whom Let him that do's not hear the Church he as a Heathen and a Publican But now it seems That Man alone is as Blind as a Heathen or Publican who do's not rather hear himself than the Church I wonder how long this has been so Misrepresent I le warrant you now you have got in your Head the Question Where was the Protestant Church before Luther But don't reproach this Church and perswade the World she is as yet but in her Infancy If you have seen a Book entit'led The Antiquity of the Protestant Religion You 'l see it there prov'd That the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally profest in the Christian World before the Reformation p. 1. Represent You have brought in this Question now by Head and Shoulders But since 't is staâ—ted satisfie me so far as to let me know where this Church was before the Pretended Reformation In what Country or Nation was it Visible Whether in the Eastern or Western World We have a fair Historical account of it from Luther's time to our days But I would willingly know where it was in all those Fifteen Hundred years from Christ's Ascension to the coming of the Prophet Luther as he is styl'd by Slydan Misrepresent Why this Author of the Antiquity of the Protestant Religion asserts it positively and proves That the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally profest in the Christian World before the Reformation And sure you that pretend to History and Religion cannot be ignorant Where that Religion was which was Anciently and Generally profest amongst Christians throughout the World. Represent Certainly then This Man must have had some extraordinary Revelation or made some New Discovery For the former Protestants who liv'd nearer Luthâ—r's time knew nothing of this Religion being Generally profess'd â—oannes Regius lib. Apol p. 176 Bishop Jewel Apol. p. 4. c. 4. d. 2. and Mr. Parkins Eâ—poâ— Cre p. 400. confeâ—s that before the days of Luther and Zuingliâ— the Church viz. Protestant was Invisible unknown unheard of that for the space of many hundred years an Vniversal Apostacy overspread the Whole face of the Earth and this Church was not then visible to the World. So that by what I see Authors don't agree in this matter And then besides this in a late Famillar Discourse betwixt a Minister and his Parishioner The Question being propos'd p. 14 Where was your Religion as it is now reform'd when Luther began his Reformation As to this particular the Minister answers It may be 't was in the Greek in the Abassine and Aegyptian Churches amongst the Armenian Christians It may be 't was in a Corner under a Cloud covered with Rubbish What if we say 't was no where Misrepresent Well and what then Represent Nothing but that I see 't is very hard to be found some find it Generally profess'd
others Invisibly profess'd others travel a great way to find it and return back with a May be and it may be 't was under the Rubbish And what if one should here enforce the Argument in The Plain Mans Reply He 's upon Enquiry Who is the Infallible Judge asserted by Catholics and because he don't find Authors agree upon the Point Where he shall find him p. 18. 25. he there concludes them all to be but Triflers and that there 's no such Judge in the World. Would not this conclude as forcibly that there was no Protestant Church in the World before Luther Since being now upon the Search to what Church or Communion one was to have applyed himself in K. Henry the Seventh's time to have been instructed in the True Faith and Doctrine of Christ they generally agree there was such a Church in the World but some send us to Armenia for it some to Greece some to the Hussites some to an Invisible Corner some to a Cloud some to look under the Rubbish What can a Man call this but in the Plain Man's phrase Trifling And yet Plain as he is he stands fair for this same Title of Honour he has so bountifully bestow'd upon others For as others so He tells us p. 10. that True Religion shall never be so far driven out of the World but that it shall always have somewhere or other some that believe and profess it in all things necessary to Salvation I enquire Where these were twenty years before the Pretended Reformation He assures me They were certainly in the World some where or other Great satisfaction to an Enquirer Is not this just as if I were travelling to a certain Town as as 't is in the Plain Mans Reply p. 19. and do ask the next Man I meet which is the right way He tells me 't is a very Cross-Road to find and I may easily miss it But saith he tho' I cannot direct you my self yet there is a Man lives in that Village who knows every step so exactly that if you take him for your Guide you cannot possibly be mistaken Pray say I at what House do's this Honest Man live How may I come to the speech of him Nay saith he I know nothing of all that but you must find him as you can Now suppose every Man in the Village gives me the same wise Answer What an admirable Direction would this prove Is this any thing but Trifling This is just our Case I am enquiring to find out the True Protestant Church before Luther All assure me 't was certainly in the World but when I come to ask Where the Plain Man's Reply is Some where or other Misrepr Tho' they don't agree where 't was just before Luther Yet all agree 't was generally profess'd by the Primitive Christians Represent Then I see we must despair of finding it the thousand Years before Luther And what was the Primitive Church we 'l enquire in our next Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XI An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor For the satisfaction of those who desire to know whether the Protestant Religion was generally Professed amongst the Christians of those Purer times Represent WE are now to enquire into the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church and see whether that was Protestant or Catholic But we must first know how many Years or Ages you 'l allow us to look into that is how long you say the True Pretestant Religion as now establish'd was profess'd and practis'd Anciently and Generally among Christians after the Apostles days before corruption crept in upon it Setle this Point and then we 'll proceed Misrepresent If you are in good earnest He give you some account of this The Author of the Discourse Concerning a Judge of Controversie lately publish'd says p. 15. For Authority We appeal to the best Authority of the Christian Church the Three First Ages after the Apostles So that I presume by him the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally profess'd and practis'd to the year of Christ 400. Calvin Reynolds and Fulk own the Church of Rome to have continu'd in the Doctrine of the Apostles that is Protestant in the time of Cyprian Jerom Austin the last of whom liv'd till the year 430. Agen in the Discourse entitled Papists not Mis-represented by Protestants 'tis said p. 56. The Tradition of the Church remain'd Clear and Strong till after the First Four General Councils the last of which being that of Chalcedon establish'd in England by Act of Parliament An. 1 Eliz. was held in the Year 450. So that I may allow you to search into the Primitive Church for the first four hundred and fifty years for so long I question not the Protestant Religion was Generally profess'd and practis'd and that Religion as then practis'd is the same as now establish'd by Law here in England and 't is a shame You and Yours shou'd so declaim against it Represent Pardon me here for I profess my self to have so great a veneration for the Primitive Church that I resolve to believe as that believ'd and if it appears that That Church was the Protestant Church I le e'en be Protestant to morrow But let us go on upon our Enquiry You say you have reason to believe the Protestant Religion was Generally profess'd in the Primitive Times for the First Four hundred and fifty years For your satisfaction and mine we 'll take a view of the Christian Religion as then profess'd And that we may proceed with more security and certainty we 'll not descend at present so low as you allow but look at it as 't was practis'd in the time of Constantine the Great who died about the year 337. I make choice of this time because This was the First 〈◊〉 that gave liberty for the Publick Profession of Christianity and establish'd it by Law. 'T was under him all those Pious Learned and Holy Men first appear'd wâ—o till then had been confin'd by cruel Persâ—câ—â—ors to Caves Rocks and Wildernesses 'T was under him the First General Council of Niâ—e was held which we all venerate and whose Creed we all recite and assent to as Apostolical Misrepresent I approve the circumstances For if ever Christianity was Pure and Vncorrupt it must certainly be then when it first shew'd it self to the world and rais'd up its Head from under Perfecution And now you put me in mind of it Dr. Swadlin in his Answer to the 36 Questions reckons This Emperor Constantine the Great for one of the Fathers or Professors of the Proteâ—tant Relition in old times Answ 11. So that I have no exceptions against Him. But who shall give us the account of the Religion then Profess'd Represent Ee'n the Fathers or Professors that then liv'd
Reform'd away one after t'other all that belongs to Christianity Some reform'd away the greatest part of the holy Ceremonies and Religious Decency observ'd in Churches comes another sort and reform away what These left after them comes a Third and Reform away even the Churches themselves Some made a Reform of the Priestly Vestments retaining the Name of Copes and Miters with the Vse only of a Surplice the next reform the Surplice and the Third reform the Priests and Ministers themselves all out of doors Some began to reform the Sacraments and all were Superstitious but Two others came and thought these Two as Superstitious as the other Five and at last they have reform'd amongst them Religion so far till the only Christianity that is left without Error Corruption or Innovation is that which tho Protestancy still is without ever a Christian in it Misrepresent Certainly you have forgot what you were about and instead of looking for the Protestant Religion you have taken a leap from Constantine down into all the Enthusiasms of our Age. Represent No no We shall soon be back agen I have only given you a hint what 't is you call purging Christianity of Errors and Innovations and what edifying work it makes And by this we shall find there was no Protestant Religion Generally Practis'd and Profess'd amongst Christians in those days of Constantine of which we have lately taken a Survey Misrepresent How so Represent Because if the Protestant Religion had been at that time generally profess'd the Protestants then would have as zealously Protested against what you call the Errors and Innovations in Constantine's time as they did twelve hundred years after in the Reign of King Henry 8. Misrepresent Make that out Represent You know 't is the very Essence of Protestants to Protest against those Doctrines and Practices which they condemn as the Errors and Superstitions of Popery But such Doctrines and Practices there were in Constantine's time as Eusebius and other Historians declare and you your selves own Therefore if the Protestant Religion had been at that time genenerally profess'd they would have Generally Protested against those Doctrines and Practices But there was no General Protestation against those Doctrines and Practices by the Christians in Constantine's time Therefore the Christians in Constantine's time were not Generally Protestants Misrepresent Methinks this gingles something like a Syllogism Represent 'T is to that Tune and I think convincing enough to any serious Considerer that is acquainted with the Spirit of Protestantism Come I dare appeal to your judgment tho' so perversly byass'd for the Case is clear Don't you observe the Protestants that have been in the world ever since Luther's Pretended Reformation have not only Ridicul'd and Condemn'd what they call Romish Errors in the time of Henry 8. but likewise condemn the same practis'd as they own heretofore in the time of Constantine And here I ask of you Don't you think if Luther and his Fellow-Reformers had hapned in Constantine's time they would as certainly have Reform'd the Christian Religion of Constantine as they did afterwards of Hen. 8. Their loud Protesting against and condemning the Pretended Errors of both the One and the Others Religion is a sufficient intimation what they would have done had the Sins of Christendom so early provok'd the Divine Vergeance and brought them before into the World. Since therefore 't is evident it cannot be made appear That the Christians in Constantine's time did Protest against any such pretended Errors as the Protestants have done ever since Luther 't is evident there were no such Christians in those times as Protestants And however Dr. Swadlin confidently derives the Succession of the Protestant Religion not from the Waldenses Wicklifists and Hussits but from Constantine Eusebius c. You have now seen the One Practising the Other relating such Doctrines as are by Protestants now marked out for Superstitious without the lest guilt of Conscience or making any the least Protestation against them and what kind of Protestants these must have been who were thus deep in Popery I leave you to consider Only one thing still I le propose to you We have made hitherto some enquiry into the Christianity of those Former Times and look'd back upon those Christians Now suppose it had been your Fate to have been in those times just Protestant as you are at this day Had you gone into their Churches and seen there the lighted Candles the appeasing the Deity with Vnbloody Sacrifices and Mystic Consecrations Had you seen the Awful Translation of Holy Relicks Constantine prostrate at the Sepulcher of the Apostles and imploring their Intercession had you seen him signing his Forehead with the Cross and with great veneration repositing part of the Holy Cross for the security of the City Had you seen him Fasting and chastising his Body honouring Monks and Virgins by Vow consecrated to God Attributing Primacy to the Bishop of Rome and Subjecting all Christian Churches to him Had you seen the Body of the Deceas'd Emperor in the Church upon a stately Throne with the Priests and numerous Crouds in Tears and Sighs praying for his Soul Had you seen I say in those days the Christians serving God and publickly exercising their Religion in this manner would you have thought them Protestants Would this have agreed with the Notion of Protestantism you have now in your Head Or tell me seriously should you not have run out of their Churches and heartily Protested against them as Rank Papists And yet these are the Christians your Divines appeal to as the Antient Professors of the Protestant Religion 'T is according to these times they say they have Reform'd Christianity And that the Religion as now establish'd by Law in this Nation is the same as was then Antiently and Generally profess'd and practis'd in those Primitive Times Misrepresent You stand close tied up to Constantine s' time and there make your boasts You know we appeal to the First Five or Six Hundred Years and 't is not reason you shou'd confine the search to so narrow Bounds as the Reign of one Emperour Represent Wee 'll go forward therefore and see what was the Religion of all these Ages and because we cannot learn this better than from the Belief and Doctrine of the Eminent and Learn'd Fathers of of those Times wee 'll see what Information their Works will give us as they are acknowledg'd by the Centurists and other Protestant Historians and Writers The Century-Writers you must know give an Historical account of those Ages and in their Fourth Century dedicated to Q. Elizabeth and affirm'd by Protestants to be an Excellent Work worthy of immortal Memory they charge the Fathers of those Antient and Purer times with the holding the Doctrines as follow viz. with Justification by Works Merit Confession of Sins to a Priest Vnwritten Tradition Invocation of Saints Purgatory with Altars so call'd of Sacrifice offer'd upon them and Consecrated with the Sign of the
have appear'd some Warm Doctor a Dr. J. S. who from the Text Revel 11. 5. I will come unto thee quickly and will remove thy Candlestick out of his Place except thou repent would have thus pour'd forth the Spirit of Reformation upon them We have no Apprehâ—nsions that either Mahometanism or Pagâ—nism will come into these Kingdoms it is another kind of Removal of our Candlestick that we have reason to fear it is another Religion nigher at hand that is most likely to Displace our Candlestick You all know what Religion I mean it is Popery that most threatens us It is that Restless Busie Religion that has made so much Disturbance in Christendom that has always been and is still so Active by all Means Just or Vnjust by Fraud or Force to insinuate it self into all Places It is this we ought to have most Apprehensions of May God so inspire you that by your Means as effectual Provision as Possible may be made both for the keeping out that Foreign Religion which so little serves the Ends of Christianity and so much disserves the Interâ—st both of King and People and for the more firm Establishment of the Protestant Religion Or in case of this Doctor 's failing would there not have been invited another as Dr. J. T. who would have put the Fathers in mind That it is believ'd by many and not without cause that the Pope and his Faction are the Antichrist That Popery is as bad or worse than Infidelity That the Old Heathen Philosophers were better Teachers of Religion than the Papists That Tully Plutarch and Seneca were much Honester and more Christian Casuists than any that I know of in the Church of Rome That therefore They would make a Lasting Provision for the Security of our Peace and Religion against all the Secret Contrivances and open Attempts of These Sons of Violence Can you think Misrepresenter that Popery having thus overspread the Earth the Light of the Gospel being obscur'd as Mr. Napper says upon Revel p. 191. by the Roman Antichrist himself in the Time of these First Four Councils there could be so many Protestants assembled Bishops Divines and others as you say there were in those councils and yet not one word of Encouragement for the rooting out of Popery and filling their Heads with Fears and Jealousies Come for my part I cannot tell how to imagine this possible And therefore unless as you have shewn me what you call the Corruptions of Popery in those Times so you can likewise shew me there were some Means taken for the preventing the Growth of them by those Fathers I shall never bring my Reason to believe that those Fathers were Protestants Misrepres Means I don't question but there were Means us'd for the Redress of those Evils but we are not upon that Point yet You are only speaking of a Sermon Introductory to those Councils Repres Well and can you shew me from any of the Ancient Historians that there were any such Inspiriting Sermons at those Times If you cannot produce any I shall be apt to believe that either the Preachers then were no Protestants or else that the Fathers were none For you and I that know what Protestancy and Popery is must needs conclude so Misrepres You may e'en drop this Point for I don't pin my Faith upon such Sermons I know indeed as the World goes now there are some who cannot hold their Eyes open at a Sermon but when the Thunder of Papist and Popery breaking from the Pulpit awakens them But 't is likely 't was not so in old Times The Christians heretofore I believe had a greater Portion of the Spirit of Peace and Charity they were contented with following their Text and knew to spend their Glass without the help of these Popular Excursions It may be this Modish Divinity is New taken up only since the making a Faction and Party has crept into the Pulpit with the Gospel But what then The Protestant Religion was Anciently Profess'd and I question not the Fathers of those First Councils were Protestants tho' I can produce no Instance of such Parliamentary Sermons as you speak of Repres Thou art Good-natur'd sometimes Misrepresenter and so Ingenuous as to shame the Devil and speak Truth In Return I le let fall this Point and will enquire no farther after Protestant Sermons in those Primitive Times for the Direction of the First Councils We 'll pass over therefore to the Councils themselves and Examine what kind of Christians the Fathers there assembled were Misrepres Yes this will be to the Purpose upon this Point turns the whole weight of the Controversie if it don't appear they were Protestants I must needs own I have deluded many and that I really am what you call me a Misrepresenter Repres Don't you remember I shew'd you at our last Meeting that the Pope and Those Fathers were too well agreed to be Protestants Misrepres Yes yes I have heard this already The Popes were Good Prelates in those Days they had not then the Mark of the Beast in their Forehead and so that Concludes nothing Repres If They had not then the Mark of the Beast 't was because there were then no such things as Protestants to set it on The Popes had at that Time all Christian Churches Subject to them as Mr. Napper confesses upon the Revelations Nay he says that the Pope's Usurpation and Lording it over all Christian Churches began before the Year of Christ 316 which was before the Time even of the First General Council of Nice held An. 325. Now since for this very Vsurpation as they call it the Modern Protestants Luther's Offspring have set Horns upon the Pope and made him Antichrist if he was not so reputed or esteem'd by the First General Councils there being then the same Reason I must needs conclude 't was because they were then no Protestants You your self cannot deny but if Those Protestants who now say that the Antichristian and Papistical Reign began in those Days had They then liv'd and been Protestants would have said the same then as they do now And since instead of such Opprobrious and Infamous Titles the Fathers then shew'd him the highest Respect and Veneration my Reason assures me Those Fathers were no Protestants Misrepres This is nothing but a Dry Repetition and I am weary of it Advance a Step or I le e'en be gone and leave you Gaping without a Witness Repres Let 's proceed then to the Canons and Decrees of those First Councils And here I demand of you Do you find any Canons or Decrees made by the Fathers of those Councils in opposition to the Doctrines and Tenets which you now condemn as Popish Errors but were then Taught and Practis'd Misrepres What Errors do you mean Repres If you remember Calvin Beza Dr. Field Whitaker the Centurists and other Protestant Writers Censure the greatest part of the Primitive Fathers who liv'd either before or in the
THE Catholic Representer OR THE PAPIST Misrepresented AND REPRESENTED Second Part. Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty For his Houshold and Chappel 1687. THE CONTENTS CHAP. I. OF the Veneration shewn to Images of Christ the Virgin Mary c. Whether the Papists Pray to Images in Relation to a Passage of a Book Entituled A Catechism truly Representing the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome and its Vindication CHAP. II. Whether Papists Pray directly to the Cross as is positively Asserted by a Protestant with an Essay of a Heathen-Catechism after the Copy of the Truly-representing Protestant-Catechism in which this Calumny is publish'd CHAP. III. Whether the Doctrine of Transubstantiation be contrary to the Writings of the Primitive Fathers or agreeable to them The Papist believes his Senses in this Mystery as much as the Protetant being Notes upon a late Pamphlet Entituled The Papists Doctrine of Transubstantiation not agreeable to the Primitive Fathers CHAP. IV. The Form of the Catholic Church Establish'd by Christ No hopes of Salvation out of it The Practice of the Apostles and Primitive Church in this Point Good at this day The Protestants as uncharitably Damn the Papists as These are said to do the Protestants In reference to the Preface of Wholsom Advices from the B. V. c. CHAP. V. The Papist as to the Articles of his Belief follows the Method prescrib'd by Christ practis'd by the Apostles and the Primimitive Church The Method is of Divine Institution and more according to Reason than what Others follow The Word Worship is Equivocal and acknowledg'd so by St. Austin CHAP. VI. The Papist do's not Believe but upon most Convincing Reasons Mysteries of Faith above Reason not contrary to it The Papist is not depriv'd of the Word of God nor kept from the Knowledge of the Gospel He do's not Pray to the Cross more than Protetestants Pray to their Bibles or the Sacrament Three Protestant Queries Answer'd CHAP. VII The Vulgar among the Papists not depriv'd of the Word of God. They are better Instructed in the true Sense of it than those of other Perswasions who Teach themselves The Vnlearned and Vnstable wrest it to their own Destruction CHAP. VIII The Vulgar not permitted to read the Bible among the Papists for fear they should discover the Errors of their Religion an Absurd Calumny The Restraint is That there may not be as many different Words of God as there are Heads amongst them and may have something better Ground than their own Imagination to direct their Faith. A Word to a Lay-Friend CHAP. IX The Scriptures not always the Same to the same Person No Possibility of meeting in One Faith whilst Private Reason sets up for Interpreter of the Word of God. The Sham-Story of the Frogs and Crabs The Truth of the Anniversary Solemnity CHAP. X. Private Interpretation of Scriptures the Occasion of Divisions Some Protestant Divines call in the Assistance of Authority and Guides but all ends in the Private Spirit The Question started Where was the Protestant Religion as it is now Reform'd before Luther The Answers of some Protestant Divines CHAP. XI An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor For the Satisfaction of those who desire to know whether the Protestant Religion was generally Profess'd amongst the Christians of those Purer Times CHAP. XII Protestant Historians shew us Popery in the Primitive Church under Constantine but no Protestancy The Christians of that Age never Protested against the Popish Doctrines professedly Taught and Practis'd in those Times Therefore they were no Protestants An Enquiry into the Religion of the Ages succeeding Constantine CHAP. XIII The Professors of Popish Doctrines in the Primitive Times no Protestants but Papists Popish Tenets not only the Opinions of Private Doctors but the Doctrine of the Primitive Church The Four First General Councils no Protestants CHAP. XIV No Protestant Harangue in the First Four General Councils to fill the Fathers Heads with Fears and Jealousies No Canons made by the said Fathers to prevent the Growth of Popery at that Time professedly Taught and Practis'd is an Argument that the Fathers of those Councils were no Protestants CHAP. XV. The Appeal of Protestants to the Primitive Fathers shewn Injurious to Protestancy from the Concessâ—ons of Protestant Writers Luther the Apostle of the Reformatiâ—â— disclaims the Doctrine of the Fathers as not being for his purpose of Reforming CHAP. XVI A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy The Art of Interpreting do's Feats it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity THE PAPIST Misrepresented AND Represented SECOND PART CHAP. I. Of the Veneration shewn to Images of Christ the Virgin Mary c. Whether the Papists pray to Images in Relation to a Passage of a Book Entituled A Catechism truly Representing the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome and its Vindication THe Papist Misrepresented worships the Images of Christ and his Saints he kisses them uncovers his Head falls down before them offers Incense and Prays to them and uses all such Postures of Worship as he would do to the Person or Persons thereby represented if they were present And whosoever thinks otherwise amongst them is accursed Catech. truly repres the Doctr. of the Ch. of Rome p. 42. THe Papist Represented is taught That the Images of Christ of the Virgin Mary and other Saints ought to be kept and especially in Churches and due Honour and Veneration given them not for that any Divinity or Vertue is believed to be in them or that any thing is to be asked of them or any confidence to be placed in them as was anciently done by the Heathens who put their trust in Idols but because the Honour which is exhibited to the Images is referr'd to the Prototype or Thing represented by them So that by the Images which he kisses and before which he kneels or puts off his hat he adores Christ and reverences his Saints whom the said Images represent This is what He is taught and are the Words of the Council of Trent Sess 25. And tho some endeavour to cast an Infamy upon this Doctrine and Practice by letting loose the School-debates amongst the multitude and raising Mists and Confusion from the disagreeâ—ng Opinions of Divines Yet in honest Practice he 's conscious to himself of doing no more than what he sees done every Day by such who commendably follow the regular Motions of Humane Nature the Dictates of unbiass'd Reason First therefore as Men judge it nothing but Decent and Reasonable to set forth and adorn their Houses with the Pictures of such Persons as belong to their Family of their old Friends Benefactors Governours such as they esteem and whose Memory they desire to preserve and honour So he cannot but think it as agreeable to Reason that the House of God be
see Misrepresenter how many different Conceptions of the Mind and Affections or Motions of the Heart are express'd by this one and the same Word Worship And all these the Papists give to these several Objects due proportion being always observ'd according to their different Degree of Excellency So that tho they are all call'd by the same Name of Worship yet it signifies a different Affection of the Soul as due to each respective Object Upon this hinge turns this Controversie and if you would be so sincere as to explicate this Truth and not presently make every thing Idolatry where you see a Worship paid much of this Unchristian Wrangling which has disturbed the World these hundred and fifty years might be prevented for the future Mr. Thorndike was so honest as to give this notice to his Readers Epil p. 3. p. 353. Where he says that the words Adoration Worship Respect Reverence or howsoever you translate the word Cultus are or may be in despite of our hearts equivocal and the cause of this equivocation is the want of Words properly to signifie Conceptions which came not from common use St. Augustine declar'd this Truth long ago l. 10. de Civit. Dei c. 1. where he shews all these Words Servitus Cultus Religio Pietas Service Worship Religion Piety to be Equivocal and may be applied both to God and Creatures And thus Catholics many times use them without the least entrenching upon the Divine Prerogative or scandal to their Neighbour which had never been heightned to that degree as is at this day had not some as the Pharisees did to our B. Saviour stood by and taken as much pains to wrest every thing into a Wrong Sense as Charity obliges to interpret in a Right one And as Worship is understood in all this latitude 't is hard to make it out that Men are to pray to every thing they Worship or that Prayer is necessarily depending on it But then again if the Catechism by his Praying to means no more than Praying at or before Images I have nothing to say to it I only complain'd of it because by his Expression as it stands there he seems willing to have his Reader understand it that the Papists so pray to Images as if they expected to be heard by them or that They should obtain or grant their Request which is a most foul Misrepresentation But as for Praying before them 't is what we own and Practice And since to at and before come to be all one with him let the Words of Abjuration quoted by Spelman be thus Understood as Dr. Stillingfleet makes Bowing to the Name of Jesus and at it Idol of Ch. R. p. 111. Ed. 1. to be the same and then it plainly declares our Doctrine and we shall not fall out much upon this matter Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's most Excellent Majesty for His Houshold and Chappel 1686. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. VI. The Papist do's not believe but upon most Convincing Reasons Mysteries of Faith above Reason not contrary to it The Papist is not depriv'd of the Word of God nor kept from the Knowledge of the Gospel He does not Pray to the Cross more than Protestants pray to their Bibles or the Sacrament Three Protestant Queries Answered THe Papist Misrepresented knows no reason for the Religion he professes He 's over-ruled by Authority and is forc'd to submit his Belief to such Points as are contrary to his Reason He 's depriv'd of the Word of God and kept in a miserable Ignorance of his Duty both to God and his Neighbour THe Papist Represented very commendably enquires into the Reasonableness of his Belief He searches into the Motives of his Faith and here applys all the Reason he is able to Examine Consider Weigh and Judge of things aright not taking one step forward in order to give the least assent by Faith till his Judgment is thoroughly convinced that in Reason he 's bound to do it and that he should be self-condemn'd by his own Knowledge or Conscience if he did not submit upon such Evidence and full conviction This is what he is taught to do as to the Motives or Reasons of his Believing all those Points which are purely Mysteries of Faith. But although he has good Reason for giving his assent by Faith to all the Articles of Christian Religion Yet because the greatest part of them are above his Reason and therefore properly call'd Mysteries he cannot pretend to measure them by his short-sighted Reason no more than take the demensions of the Heavens by his Span which are out of his reach For how can Reason without a daring Presumption undertake to fathom such things which however agreeable to the Infinite Vnderstanding of God bear no proportion with any Created Faculties whilst encompassed with Flesh In the Mysteries therefore of his Faith his Reason is over-rul'd by Authority so that in these he goes much farther than his Reason will carry him His Reason indeed directs him to the Authority but then having discover'd this his Faith follows with Certainty and Security where Reason can give her no Light. Misrepresent Vpon this account it is I declare to my Followers that the Papists believe without Reason that whosoever will be a Papist must cast a Blind over all his Rational Faculties and by a slavish Obedience submit his Faith without controul Represent And for this very reason you are a Misrepresenter and slander the Papists For the Papists use their Reason as much as any Protestant in the World can do I have told you already they apply their Reason to search with the strictest scrutiny into all the Motives which are apt to make a thing Credible and never Submit their Faith but where their Reason upon the strongest and most convincing Arguments obliges them to it and that so forcibly that 't would be a contradiction to their Reason not to submit Can any Protestant do more than this Misrepresent Yes We search into the very Mysteries of the Christian Faith and believe no farther than is agreeable to our Reason at least so as not to be against it A Protestant by his Religion is so reasonable a Creature that no Authority in the World can oblige him to believe contrary to his Reason he 'll believe things above his Reason but not contrary to it Represent Thus you deceive your selves and all that follow you Why all this is nothing but what the Papists are taught to do You pretend to Reformation condemning the Papists for going Blindfold and yet what you do is downright Popery There 's no Papist in the World is taught to believe contrary to Reason they believe such Mysteries as are above Reason but nothing contrary to it Let me examine you a little in this Point and we shall soon find what agreement there is betwixt us You believe the Mysteries of the Trinity and Incarnation Misrepresent Yes Represent But can any
Protestant Reasoning discover or even apprehend how there can be three distinct Persons in One Divine Nature undivided or how God could be made Man be Born Suffer and Die But not to go so high Can you conceive it as agreeable to your Reason How all this World could be made out of Nothing Can you conceive What Eternity is to be without begining or ending For the Bodies of all the Sons of Adam to rise from the Dead after having pass'd through so many successive Corruptions How the Bodies of the Just shall become Spiritual and put on Incorruption And those of the Wicked be tormented for ever as long as God shall be God Can you conceive apprehend or by your Reason tell How these things can be Can your Reason by being Protestant open unto you these Mysteries And I hope you believe them with a firm and undoubting Faith. Misrepresent Yes I believe them all and to speak plainly I think they are far above the reach of all Humane Reason Man may endeavour to explicate them by Similitudes or some proportion in Nature but these still fall much short of the real Truth of those Mysteries and he that thinks he comprehends them does only deceive himself and like those who try to look the Sun full in the Face see nothing by presuming to see too much However notwithstanding this great disproportion the Mysteries of Christian Religion bear with humane Reason yet I believe them all with a firm and certain Faith to be true upon the Authority of God revealing them who is Truth it self Represent Spoke like a Christian and if all Protestants would joyn with you in this Sentiment there would not be so many Reasoning Atheists in the World as there are But give me leave Misrepresenter Is it not a very spiteful and un-neighbourly Trick that whilst you thus in private profess and own so sovereign a Truth as this and that you believe such Mysteries according to your Religion which your Reason can neither see nor understand Yet when you come to appear in Publick and are to win the favour of the People by declaiming against Popery you then dress out this in the Papists as the greatest piece of non-sense in the World 't is then nothing but going blindfold laying aside Reason a slavish Submission and a thousand worse things besides Come let me tell you this your putting on at pleasure different Faces is no credit to your cause And it makes some begin to think That many of your Popular Harangues have more of Policy in them than Religion that they drive more at keeping up a Party than saving of Souls Otherwise why should you in publick set that forth as Ridiculous in the Papists which in your more sober conversation between Friends you profess your selves and own as Reasonable and Christian Misrepresent This is nothing better than railery Why I don't blame the Papists upon this account I only pity and condemn them because Poor Souls they are forc'd to take up all Religion upon trust they are not allow'd the use of the Bible and so cannot examine by their own Reason the Doctrine of Christ and Mysteries of his Faith but without all Seeing or Reasoning must take all that 's given them for Good and so are merely led Captives depending wholly upon the Will of their Ignorant Guides and if they will but say as they say they are Good Catholics tho' they understand not a Word This is it I call going Blindfold hood-winking of Reason and slavish Obedience Represent You are come now to your Popular Topic and yet you cannot turn your self in it without Misrepresenting deceiving and stretching your Stories beyond the bounds of Truth You please your people by putting the Bible into their hands encouraging them to search the Scriptures to find out the Truth that so the Word of Christ may dwell richly in them in all Wisdom Then you tell them of the great Blessing they enjoy in as much as their lot is not fallen in those unhappy Places where the people can by no means procure the Reading of the Bible cannot come to the Knowledge of the Word of God or of their Duty but must walk in Darkness and see no Light. Misrepresent Well and is not this true Represent 'T is like the Truths you generally tell when you rail against the Papists It has a little of Truth in it and the Greater Part False It has a Truth for the Foundation but then you raise so many False Constructions Wrong Inferences and Misapplications upon it that the Truth is violently bore down and almost sunk into nothing Misrepresent Come let me take my Turn You Catechis'd me in one Point now let me examine you in another Do you Believe the Bible to be the Word of God Represent Yes I believe it to be the Word of God that it contains the Doctrine of Christ and as such I am commanded to Respect Honour and Reverence it and so I do sincerely desiring rather to lose my life than contemn or injure that Sacred Volume Misrepresent Do you think it convenient for the People to Know and Understand the Doctrine it delivers Represent I think it not only convenient but also necessary for them to Know and Understand it and that Salvation is not attainable by those who do not do as is there commanded or do not believe as is there taught Misrepresent Why then do you deprive the Vulgar and Ordinary People of this Holy Food of their Souls which you judge Necessary for their Salvation Why do you take the Light out of their Hands and force them to walk in darkness Represent The Ordinary People and Vulgar of our Communion have more of this Holy Food are better serv'd with this Light of Truth than those of any other Perswasion whatsoever and 't is nothing but an Aspersion of yours to say They are depriv'd of this Bread of Life and are left without Means of knowing their Duty to God and their Neighbour Do you but consider a little Misrepresenter Are those People depriv'd of the Word of God who are taught it by their Pastors by God's Appointment ordain'd to teach them Or does he take the better course to be instructed in his Christian Duty who leaving his Pastors goes about to teach himself Men don 't generally think that Flock to be depriv'd of its food which is carefully fed by the Shepherd neither is that Sick Man left without Means for his Cure who receives Prescriptions from the Physician without having the liberty of the Apothecarie's Shop to take what best suits with his Taste or his Phancy where tho' all be Good if rightly applied yet 't is easie mistaking the use of the Drugs and taking Killing ones instead of Curing Why then should you defame the Papists as not having God's Word dwelling in their hearts whenas tho' they do not receive it generally by Reading it themselves yet they are instructed in that Sacred Truth and fed with it by
the Scripture in their Memory more Texts at their tongue's command more of the Books in their hands but 't is where more care is taken for imprinting the true Sence of these Words in the Vnderstanding of the People and where is us'd the most prudential method for the leading them into the truth of all the Mysteries contain'd in that sacred Volume And in this Point the Papist will yield to none for it is an unquestionable truth that when a Book contains high Mysteries of Religion Mysteries superiour to all Sence and Reason and those not deliver'd in expressions suited to every capacity but obnoxious to various interpretations such as may be wrested by the unlearned and unstable to their own Destruction in this case 't is an unquestionable truth I say that that People is in all probability likely to have more of the true Sence of this Book and to be better informed of the truth of the Mysteries it contains who are instructed in it by the Learned of that Communion and taught it by their Pastors Prelates and those whom God hath placed over them to govern and feed the Flock than any other People who have the Book put into their own hands to read it and search it and satisfie themselves For why Are not the Pastors more capable of teaching the People than the People are to teach themselves Or is it commendable in Scripture only and Religion for every one to be his own Master which in any other matter whosoever doe's it shall be esteem'd a Fool We know Moses Deut. 31. 9. gave the Book of the Law to the Levites to keep and read it every seven years to the People and in King Jehoshaphats reign 2 Chron. 17. 9. the Priests and Levits did read it and teach the People so did Jeremy Jer. 36. by Gods command so Isaiah so Ezekiel so the Levits Nehemiah 8. 8. Read in the Book in the Law of God distinctly and gave the Sence and caus'd them the People to understand the Reading And did not our Blessed Saviour Luc. 4. 17. take the Book of the Prophet and read it and expound it to the People And was not this the Office of the Apostles and Deacons to interpret the Scriptures and instruct their Followers what they were to believe and doe For this intention was Ananias sent to Saul Peter to Cornelius and Philip to the Eunuch who professedly own'd he could not understand the Prophet in so necessary a Point as that of the Messias without an Interpreter How can I understand said he except some man should guide me Act. 8. 31. Since therefore the Papists in delivering the Scripture come nearest to this Method commanded by God in the Old Law prescrib'd and practis'd by Christ and his Apostles in the New what People can be better instructed in the true sence of it and understand more of the Mysteries of the Christian Faith than they With what Reason can it be urg'd against the Vulgar of his Communion that the Scriptures are hid from them that they are bred up in blindness and ignorance Do not the Pastors expound the Scriptures to them do not they instruct them in every Point of their Religion and teach them the whole Duty of a Christian Is it not this they do in their Pulpits in their Catechisms in the Confessionaries in so many hundred spiritual Books plainly laying before them their whole obligation both as to Faith and Good manners And is this to conceal from them the Scripture Is the Word of God hid from them because they have their Pastors to instruct them in it Or are they any ways injur'd because they have learneder men than themselves to teach them Is the Multitude a better Judge of Scripture and more able to discover the truth of it than those whom God has plac'd over them Has God so deserted the Pastors and Prelates of his Church and is the Flock of late become so Wise The Faith of Christ was first planted by Christ's Preaching it to the Multitude by the same way 't was propagated by the Apostles and so it is to be deliver'd down to the end of the World Faith comes by hearing By this means many Barbarous Nations saies St. Irenaeus l. 3. adv har c. 3. believe in Christ have the Doctrine of Salvation written in their Hearts by the Holy Ghost without the help of Books and religiously observe the Traditions believing in one God c. Now 't is certain the Truth of this Christian Faith with all its Mysteries is unquestionably preserv'd in Christs Catholic Church and the People are to receive it and not to find out their Faith and Religion every one for themselves If they are afraid of being deceiv'd when they rely on their Pastors for it they run ten times the hazard when they trust to themselves The Papist therefore is taught that since Christ has a Church upon earth in which is conserv'd the truth of the Gospel 't is safer and more prudential for the People to be instructed in this Truth from the Pastors of this Church and by this means come to the Knowledg of the Word of God that is of its true sence and meaning than by committing the Book it self into the hands of the Multitude and leting every one understand it for themselves He knows 't is a very popular thing and acceptable to the prying Multitude to have a Book at command which directs the Way to Salvation but since 't is not the Book is to save him but the Truth and Doctrine which it teaches he believes 't is better learning this from those who are Wiser and are commissionated from Heaven to teach than to venture at it himself without any Authority The unhappy Divisions among Christians sufficiently inform him that to such Readers as St. Peter calls unreary and ignorant however wise they may think themselves Aâ—ianism may be as obvious in this Book as Christs Divinity and that when such an one undertakes the interpreting of it 't is an hazard whether at the end he comes out Quaker Anabaptist Presbyterian Independent Mugletonian Socinian or Atheist 'T is a Venture whether the Trinity shall have place in his Creed or no whether he 'll allow of Baptism or any Sacrament and whether Cruelty cutting of Throats Oppression Tyranny Dethroning of Kings and Murder of Princes shall not with him become a necessary Duty and a true serving of the Lord. For all these and more damnable Doctrines has he seen preach'd up and practic'd by those who have had the Bible in their Banners who have been esteem'd Searchers of the Word of God and presumptuously made their Comments upon this Sacred Text. And is it not this abuse that has occasion'd so many Schisms and almost broken the Mystical Body of Christ into pieces That whereas all his Followers should be of one mind now no body knows what Religion his Neighbour is of but every Wall now parts Religions more than Seas did heretofore And
And what think you now Misrepresenter tell me your Opinion was the Protestant Religion Anciently and Generally profess'd and practis'd in these Primitive Times when Constantine govern'd both the Western and Eastern World Do's the Church in his time practising as you have now seen acknowledg'd by unquestionable Authorities look like a Protestant Church If you know what 't is to be a Protestant tell me your mind Was Constantine and his Church Protestants or no Misrepresent You have hunted out for all the Superstâ—tions Errors and Oversights of that Age and now ask Whether the Professors were Protestants And I answer you They were Protestants as to the Doctrine of the Gospel and Creed which they profess'd tho' not as to their Oversights and Errors Represent That is to say in plain English They were Protestants as the Papists now are Protestants Any honest man by your appeal to and Pretext of Reformation according to the Primitive Times would have expected to have found a Protestant Religion profess'd and practis'd in those times as 't is now here in this Nation by Law establish'd And yet when we have taken a Prospect of those Primiâ—ive Ages we find the Christians then living Professors of no other Protestancy than such as is seen practis'd at this day in their Majesties Chappels at White-Hall Somerset house and St. James's and that I think is a Protestancy which is call'd Popery Misrepresent Why in our Reformation we are no more oblig'd to take in the Errors of Constantine 's time than those Corruptions we found in the time of Henry 8. No we Reform according to the Purity of the Gospel and have no other Rule than that of the Word of God Instructing and Directing us And as for all Superstitions they are alike rejected by us tho' some have Antiquity to plead in their behalf Represent Then I see however you pretend your Reformation has reduc'd Christianity to that state as 't was profess'd in the Primitive Times Yet when we come to look into those times thinking to find a Flourishing Uncontrol'd Protestancy Generally and Publickly Profess'd we are still as far to seek for 't as before and all that appears is the Doctrine of the Creed and Gospel profess'd but together with what you call the Errors and Superstitions of Popery so that to be a Protestant according to the Primitive Times is nothing else but to be a Papist Certainly this must be a very surprising disappointment to some to find Constantine the Great and Eusebius his Historian to be such kind of Popish Protestants as these who yet are set down by your Dr. Swadlin as the Ancient Protestants according to whose Faith and Practice the present Reformation was regulated and against whose Positions says he Ans 11. if we hold any thing name it we answer it prove it we yield So that let me tell you By what I can see as yet when a man has taken the pains to look back to those Primitive Ages he can be no more satisfied where the Protestant Religion as 't is now Reform'd was in the time of Constantine than when Luther began the Reformation but after all his search he must rest contented either with the Plain Mans Reply of its being Home where or other or else with the same It may be as was given to the Parishioner It may be 't was in the Greek in the Abassin and Egyptian Churches amongst the Armenian Christians It may be 't was in a Corner under a Cloud cover'd with Rubbish What if we say 't was no where Famil Discourse betwixt a Minister and Parishioner p. 14. ADVERTISEMENT THis is to give notice That this last Week were sound here in London several Good Protestant Lies concerning Flying Crabs seen in the Chappel at Somerset-house and of the Parish Church of St. James's in the Fields being undermin'd by the Papists and in danger of being demolished by Fire-Balls If the Right Owners will appear they shall be restor'd to them without Cost or Charges and if any will produce them they shall be well rewarded for their Pains Publish'd with Allowance Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel MDC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XII Protestant Historians shew us Popery in the Primitive Church under Constantine but no Protestancy The Christians of that Age never Protested against the Popish Doctrines professedly Taught and Practis'd in those times Therefore they were no Protestants An Enquiry into the Religion of the Ages succeeding Constantine Represent IF you remember at our last meeting Misrepresenter we were looking back into the Primitive Times to see if we could find there the Protestant Religion as 't is now reform'd Generally Profess'd and Practis'd amongst the Christians of that Purer Age. But we lost our labour and all the Hopes You came big with ended in nothing but a disappointment Misrepresent 'T would be a Miracle indeed to find it as long as you have the carrying and management of the Light by which we are to make the Discovery Represent A short memory makes you Unreasonable Have you forgot so soon the very Means and Method by which we enter'd upon our Search were of your own Choice at least by approbation and consent Our business was to make enquiry after the Protestant Religion We agreed to examine the Religion Practis'd in Constantine's time who as your Dr. Swadlin says was a Protestant and in whose time according to your Divines the Protestant Religion was generally profess'd We took an account of the Religion of that Age from Eusebius a Protestant Professor too if you credit Dr. Swadlin and some other Modern Protestants The Translation of Eusebias we made use of was done by a Protestant approv'd and publish'd by Protestants and Printed at Cambridge Anno 1683. a Protestant Vniversity what possibly could be fairer done and more to your advantage And yet after all instead of meeting in those times with the Protestant Religion as now Reform'd we were got in the middle of Good Catholics Professing and Practising their Religion receiv'd from the Apostles pure as yet and uncorrupted as your Fulk and Calvin confess and such as you under the specious Pretext of Reformation have since made Odious and Criminal and done your best to hiss it out of the world Misrepresent The Reformers have preserv'd the Religion of those times Inviolable and have only labour'd to purge Christianity of the Errors then or since that time brought in to deform it Represent This is the proper Mark of the Beast Never a Reformer yet even from Arius to this Day but what has set up his Standard against Pretended Errors and Innovations And this is the stamp they set upon every thing that does not sute with their Humour Fancy or Interest The Reformers of the Reformation go by the same Rule and such as Reform agen upon those that Reform the Reformation still pursue this Method till at last they have
in Three of them by his Legates or Deputy They shew great Respect to his Letters and follow his Direction They hear him call'd their Head without Contradiction and call him so Themselves They own him to have the Care of the Vineyard vâ—z the Whole Church committed by Christ to his Charge Now how can I imagine the Bishops there assembled to be Protestants since You and I that know what kind of things Protestants are are very well assar'd that had those Prelates been Protetants instead of these Honourable Titles and Respects they had e'en set upon Him with those Course Protestant Complements of Antichrist Whore of Babylon Vsurper c. with a peremptory Demand of What had he to meddle there with his Legates and 〈◊〉 of Direction in the 〈◊〉 Church whose Diocese like other Bishops was no other but what was over-lookt by the Seven Hills You know if the Centurists Osiander Mr. Cartwright Bibliander Dr. Whitaker Mr. Bale or Mr. Beard had been there they had in such Honourable Phrases Entitled him to Tyranny and Vsurpation as they have since with other of their Brethren done in their Writings But since instead of these Reform'd Complements I find the Pope Treated by those Four First General Councils with all Submission Respect and Veneration how can my Reason be convinc'd that those Bishops and Divines there assembled were Protestants Do you but imagine with your self that Pope Sylvester Damasus Celestine and Leo instead of Directing their Legates and Letters to those First General Councils had sent them to a Synod of Dort of Charenton to such Committees for Religion or Convocations as have been at any time held in these Northern Climates since the time of Lather's Pretended Reformation what Reception do you think they would have had Can you imagine they would have given to the Legates the most Honourable Seats as was done in those Councils Would they be heard to stile the Pope the Successor of Peter and Their Head with that awful Silence as was done there Would the Pope's Orders and Directions be receiv'd with that Submission as was done by those Venerable Synods Misrepres Troth I am apt to believe they would not Repres Then I am apt to believe and have Reason for 't that the Prelates and Divines of those Four First General Councils were nothing like These that have been of late assembled in our National Synods and Convocations that is No Protestants For if your Protestant Religion were really the same Religion as was then Profess'd in the time of those First Councils the Behaviour of those Ancient Prelates had certainly been no other than such as might rationally be expected from our Modern Protestant Synods and Convocations had the same Legates and Letters been Directed from the Pope to them and yet how Vast a difference there is betwixt what Those did heretofore and These would do now were they in the like Circumstances You your self cannot but acknowledge and whilst you own that Those Primitive Bishops of the Ancient and yet Pure Church did behave themselves so unlike Protestants how can I who am to govern my self by Reason conclude them to have been Protestants Come you exact too hard a Task of me if you expect I shall believe that the Primitive Christians were Protestants you must e'en do more than Say so you must shew that those Ancient Doctors did behave themselves in their Pulpits like our Modern Doctors That They did then in their Sermons rail against the Pope and endeavour to prove Him Antichrist That Obeying and Believing the Catholic Church was going Blindfold and Pinning Faith upon Sleeves That Praying to Saints was Idolatry and Praying for the Souls departed an Idle Superstition and a Tricking them to Heaven I have shewn you the same Popish Doctrines Profess'd heretofore as you now find at this day shew me but such Damning Sermons Preach'd against them heretofore and you 'l do something Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XIV No Protestant Harangue in the First Four General Councils to fill the Fathers Heads with Fears and Jealousies No Canons made by the said Fathers to prevent the Growth of Popery at that Time professedly Taught and Practis'd is an Argument that the Fathers of those Councils were no Protestants Representer I Hope you are by this time satisfi'd Misrepresenter that the Professors of such Doctrines and Principles as you call Popish were every where to be found in the Time of the Primitive Church when you say the Protestant Religion was Generally Profess'd amongst Christians Misrepresent I very freely acknowledge That in the Time of the Primitive Church and of the First Four General Councils there were very many Eminent Men thro' Infirmity or Blindness Embracing and Professing Popish Doctrines This I will not be so obstinate as to deny because I find most of the Ancient Fathers of the Church branded with the Mark of Popish Errors by Our own Century-Writers and other Protestant Divines Hierome Ambrose Austin Athanasius Gregory Chrysostome and the rest of them do not escape this Censure They all had their Failings in this Point They câ—ndescended too much to the Infirmity of their Times and in many of their Doctrines knew not what they said or Taught But still the Church was Protestant and the Four First General Councils as I told you before were all Protestants You may claim some Particular Doctors of those Times if you will and welcom but for the Church and Councils these were certainly Ours and their Religion was the same True Protestant Religion as is here by Law Establish'd Repres Well I don't know how far Interest or Passion or Education may work in this Point But I cannot bring my Reason and What you say to meet for my Life and yet I have been trying and turning and stretching it every way since our last Meeting and ' twon't do at last For look you now You say Those First General Councils were Protestants This presently raises a Notion in my Head That all those Bishops and Divines there assembled were like our Protestants here in England and I presently resemble them to our Convocations or Parliaments Here I begin to Imagine what so many Divines of Ours would have done in those Times had they been then in Body I consider that the Times were then very Dangerous Popery as you confess began to spread many Eminent Men were infected with its Errors Then think I Certainly if the Fathers in those Councils had been Protestants there could not have been wanting some Zealous Doctor who would have animated the Fathers to the utter Exâ—irpation of those Errors and with a Fervorous Protestant Harangue have prepar'd them for the Enacting of Laws or Canons to prevent the Growth of Popery and sor the Preservation of the Protestant the most Moderate and best Religion in the World. I cannot 〈◊〉 but there would
Time of the First Four General Councils for Teaching and Believing many Points which are of late rejected sor Superstitions of Popery and Inventions of Men Such as attributing Primacy to the See of Rome Tradition Invocation of Saints Honouring the Relicks of Martyrs Prayer for the Dead the Sacrifice of the Mass Transubstantiation c. These and many other such Doctrines Modern Protestants own to have been Taught by the Fathers of the Primitive Church in the Time of the First Councils And now I ask of you Whether the Prelates there assembled did by Canons or Decrees make any Provision against these Doctrines Misrepres I confess I don't find any Canons they made upon this matter Respres How can I believe then that the Reverend Bishops and Divines of those Councils were Protestants You are not ignorant how ill these Doctrines suit with the Protestant Temper You know They look upon the Intercession of Saints as injurious to the Mediation of Christ and Idolatrous The Pope's Primacy is with them an Antichristian Usurpation Honouring Relicks is Superstitious Praying for the Dead an Idle Devotion The Belief of Transubstantiation Unreasonable The Mass an Evacuating of the Sacrifice of the Cross Now can you perswade me that the Fathers of those First Councils could be Protestants and yet let these Doctrines and Practices so Detestable as they must be in their Opinion pass without any Condemnation and Uncensur'd No certainly The Fathers of those Times were more Zealous than so They were Watchful against all Novel Opinions such as were contrary to the Receiv'd Doctrine of the Church and there were no sooner any started tho' in Parts remote from them but they presently took the Alarm and by Writing Preaching Disputing Synods National and Oecumenical did make a most Vigorous Opposition and withstand them And such as continu'd Obstimate in their Errors with Endeavours of drawing Numbers after them and Disturbing the Peace of the Church seldom or never escap'd without the Mark of Heresie or Schism When I consider this State of the Primitive Church happily Flourishing under the Conduct and Care of so many Eminent Prelates and Pastors no less Zealous in Defending their Charge from the Assaults of Innovators and Vpstart Opinions than in Preserving Them in the Receiv'd Doctrines from the Apostles I cannot imagine how to Condemn them assembled in Full Council of such Gross Stupidity or Inexcusable Connivance as they must of necessity be guilty of in passing over so Considerable an Evil which had then overspread the greatest part of the Church And yet if I am to take Them for Protestants they of necessity fall under these Censures in not Reproving or Condemning those Popish Doctrines which as we are assur'd from Modern Protestants in the Times of those Councils had prevail'd upon such great Numbers of the Christian World. And Therefore since as you confess They made no Provision by Decrees or Canone against those Doctrines I am throughly perswaded They were no Protestants Misrepres Then I le warrant you you take them all for Good Papists Repres I must take 'em for Papists or Nothing For I am confident none but Papists could see so much Popery Taught and Practis'd as We have seen from Eusebius and Others under Constantine and in the Time of the First Four Councils and yet pass it by in Silence without Censure or Reproof Your Friend therefore who tells the World that the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally Profess'd would do well to Explicate to the Curious what kind of Protestancy that was heretofore which did agree so well with So much Popery If he do's not clear this Point well many others I believe besides my self will begin to suspect that the Fathers and Prelates assembled in those First Councils of the Primitive Church were rather Papists than Protestants Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XV. The Appeal of Protestants to the Primitive Fathers shewn Injurious to Protestancy from the Concessions of Protestant Writers Luther the Apostle of the Reformation disclaims the Doctrine of the Fathers as not being for his purpose of Reforming Misrepresenter I HAVE a Scruple this Morning that I have given you too much room to look for the Protestant Religion in the Primitive Times If I had Confin'd your Search within a Narrower compass of years you had discover'd more Protestancy and less Popery Repris I have not taken in more Years than you agreed to nor more than are generally allow'd by Protestants You know 't is the Bulwark of the Pretended Reformers to make their Appeal to the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church They acknowledge their Separation from the Church of Rome as it was in the Time of their Reformation and they justifie themselves for so doing because the Church of Rome as they pretend had faln from the Purity of Doctrine profess'd by the Primitive Church into Gross Errors Superstition and Idolatry And therefore since the Church of Rome would not Reform it self 't was necessary They should Separate from it so to Reform the Abuses and Corruptions that had crept in upon Christianity and bring it back to that State of Purity in which it had been practis'd by their Forefathers of the Primitive Church Misrepres Yes this is the True Reason of the Protestants Separating themselves from the Church of Rome and therefore I don't doubt but the Religion as here Establish'd amongst us by Law is the same as was heretofore Generally profess'd by the Primitive Church But the Question is How many Years the Primitive Church continu'd Pure and Uncorrupt that is Protestant as we are at this Day For I see you have look'd back into some Ages Past which I took for Protestant and there has appear'd then so much Popery publickly Exercis'd and Profess'd that I have some reason to suspect that the Christians of those Times were rather Papists than Protestants and that you have been something insincere in this Point and not made your Enquiry so far back as you ought Repres 'T is your Interest rather to suspect Me than the Weakness of Your own Cause But tell me How many Years did you allow me wherein to search for the Protestant Religion in the Past Ages of the Primitive Church Misrepres I gave you the Compass of the first Five hundred Years after Christ And in this I a am sure there was no Mistake of mine For Our Dr. Morton says Prot. Ap. p. 354. that It has been the Constant Prosession of Protestants to stand to the Judgment of Antiquity for the continuance of the First Four hundred Years and more in all things And ib. 573. be says that Protestants are so far from suffering the limitation of the First 440 Years that they give the Romanists the Scope of the First Five or Six hundred Years Bishop Jewel too our Champion and Apologist makes his Challenge
currant Testimonies of the Ancient Fathers are so certain and evident that many Learned Protestants upon this Consideration refuse to stand the Test of their Authorities thinking it far more advantageous to their Cause to give them a general Disclaim Hence Mr. Whitaker affirms the Popish Religion to be patcht up out of the Fathers Errors Cont. Dur l. 6. p. 423. And Dr. Humfrey most severely reprehends Mr. Jewel for his so bold Appeal to the Primitive Fathers affirming that herein Mr. Jewel gave the Papists too large a scope was injurious to himself and after a manner spoil'd himself and the Church Misrepres So then I see you intend to claim the Fathers not only of Constantine 's Time and the Following Ages as Abettors of Popery but likewise Those who in the First Centuries immediately succeeded the Apostles And what Room then do you leave for Protestancy Repres 'T is not only I that claim Them but even the Protestants themselves you see of the precedent Age such who were not asham'd to speak the Truth make a surrender of them laying aside all Pretensions either to Them or their Doctrine And when they have disown'd all the Fathers one by one from Clement Ignatius Irenaeus who liv'd in the Apostles Days and succeeded them in their Function to S. Jerome Austin Leo Gregory the last of which surviv'd the Fifth Century when they have declar'd that Antichrist began his Reign and obscur'd the Light of the Gospel even from the Time of the Apostles I wonder what Room as you say there 's left for Protestancy It savours something of a Mystery methinks call'd Nonsense to say the Protestant Religion is the same Pure Religion as was Anciently and Generally Profess'd amongst the Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church and then to condemn the same Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church for being infected with Popery and giving way to Antichrist Wherefore to avoid these Inconveniences if you 'l take my Advice Misrepresenter I believe you had better pretend no longer Right to the Primitive Fathers but as you have condemn'd the Eight hundred Years next before the Reformation of Damnable Errors and Popish Superstitions to take one step further back and e'en take in the other Six hundred Years too and so condemn them all in the lump from Christ's Time to Luther for being Papists and Popishly affected Never Mince the matter They were all Men you know and subject to Error and when you are once in 't is as easily condemning your Fore-fathers for Fourteen Ages as for Eight Your First Reforming-Apostles were something of this mind and thought it no more difficulty to Censure and Condemn the Primitive Fathers than Those they found in the time of K. Henry 8. but were for Reforming all with the same Hand Hearken a little to your courageous Luther In the Writings says he of Jerome there is not a word of True Faith in Christ and Sound Religion Tertullian is very Superstitious I have held Origen long since Accursed of Chrysostome I make no account Basil is of no worth he is wholly a Monk I value him not of a Hair Cyprian is a Weak Divine The Apology of Philip Melancthon far excels all the Dostors of the Church and exceeds even Austin himself Coll. Mens c. de Patr. Eccles And in another place The Fathers says he of so many Ages have been plainly Blind and most Ignorant in the Scriptures They err'd all their Life-time and unless they were mended before their Deaths they were neither Saints nor pertaining to God's Church To. 2. l. de Serv. Arbit Peter Martyr is of the same mind and therefore says plainly That as long as we stand to Councils and Fathers we shall always remain infected with the same Errors viz. of Popery And certainly Misrepresenter these Your First Setters up for Reformation were in the Right on 't for nothing can possibly so strengthen Protestancy and justifie the Separation as this Levelling Divinity For your Going by halves and pretending to be of the Religion of the First Ages of the Church fills People with Doubts and Scruples whilst looking back upon the Professors of those Times instead of Protestancy they find so much Popery amongst them Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XVI A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy The Art of Interpreting do's Feats it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity Represent HOW stands your Head to day Misrepresenter have you Consider'd the Proposal I made you at our last Meeting Are you for disclaiming all Title to the Primitive Church and Huffing those Ancient Fathers as Luther Peter Martyr and others did who designing a Through-Reformation were alike for calling those Great Doctors to an account of the First Ages as they did those they found in the Time of King Henry 8 Or are you for Reforming upon These First Reformers and taking in those Primitive Fathers of the Church for Protestants which They cast off and Condemn'd for Papists Misrepres I have Consider'd this Matter very seriously and taken the Advice of Friends upon the Point And therefore to be short with you I value no more the Saying of Luther than he did Those Ancient Fathers whom he condemn'd as Weak Divines Superstitious and Valu'd not of a Hair. He was so near the Times of Darkness that he could not well look back and make Judgment of any thing behind him Repres Nay I commend you in this 't is only just to serve him in his kind 'T was Tertullian's Saying Curâ—â—nm idem licet Marcionitis quod Marcioni If Marcion has rebell'd against the Church why should his Followers think much to rebel against him And since Luther cast off all Authority and valu'd not the Writings and Doctrine of the most Eminent Fathers of the Primitive Church why shou'd any one think much of undervaluing him by his own Example If Luther could so easily throw by S. Cyprian for a Weak Divine and S. Basil for being wholly a Monk is not this Precedent enough for any Follower of Luther to cast him off for an Apostate Friar and an Ambitious Divine Well but if you Reform upon Luther in this Point and don 't think fit with him to lay aside all the Writings of the Ancient Fathers as Erroneous and Superstitious what do you do with all those troublesome Passages in their Works wherein They are such Positive Asserters of Popish Doctrines that 't is impossible for any Man to take the Authors for any thing but Papists which do's not well suit with your Claim to them as Protestants Misrepres Pish I value no more these Difficulties than Luther did the Fathers that is not of a Hair. If the First Reformers bad their Eyes but half open what 's that to us who have the Noon-light of the Gospel shining upon us
set forth with the Memories of such Eminent Persons who by a singular Favour of Heaven have been made chosen Vessels for the Propagation of the Religion there profess'd or have sealed the Truth of the Doctrine there delivered with the Effusion of their dearest Bloud This God himself did in a manner direct and approve when filling Bezaleel and Aholiâ—b Exod. 35. 31. with the Spirit of God in Wisdom in Vnderstanding and in Knowledge He Inspir'd them to make Two Cherubims of Gold Exod. 37. 7. on the side of the Mercy Seat openly declaring by this Fact the best Ornaments of his Seat and House here on Earth to be the Images Pictures and Representations of those Divine Spirits who are continually finging Praises to him before his Throne in Heaven This he was pleas'd to suggest to the Jews tho so prone to Idolatry and why should Christians be so Squeamish as not to follow when the Finger of God himself is giving Direction not in any Ceremony particularly relating to that People but in the Ornament of that Place which by his own Order was consecrated to his Presence and Service But 't is not all Christians even of Those Separated from the Communion of his Church that wholy disallow of this Practice there are several degrees amongst them as to this particular The Lutheran Protestants have their Altars and Church Walls set out with the Images and Pictures of the Apostles of the Virgin Mary of Christ upon the Cross c. Other Protestants who think the best temper of Religion to be in the Compounding Luther and Calvin together dare not go so far and therefore instead of Christ and his Apostles expose only two Saints of the old Law Moses and Aaron in their holy Places admitting generally too the Judaical Ornament of the Ark some Cberubims over their Church doors and Windows but nothing of a Cbristian Representation besides a Modern Sainted Queen This is in such Churches where the Clamours of the Croud overrule where nothing more of Cbrist must appear for fear of offending tender Consciences with the looks and smell of Popery whilst yet in other Places as in some Cathedrals and Vniversities where the People don't awe the Clergy where the Charge of Popery is neglected and the Walls and Windows not left as naked as senceless Fears would have them Cbrist and his Apostles stand with as much Veneration as Moses and Aaron elswhere and a Primitive Martyr is as becoming an Ornament as Queen Elizabeth And this seems so reasonable to some true Sons of this Church that they think nothing more suitable to their Retirement where they design to converse with Heaven than a Crucifix thâ— this Practice some think fit to wave for fear of raising Jealousies in their Family and becoming the talk of the Neighbourhood And this which he sees thus approv'd by many and practis'd by some Protestants he owns and declares for the allow'd and establish'd Practice of his Church So that to be a Papist in this particular is nothing more than to think the Pictures of Christ of his Apostles and Saints to be as ornamental in a Cbristian House as others of Relations Benefactors or Emperours c. And not to joyn hands with him who broke in pieces the Image of Christ upon the Cross while he left those of the Two Thieves stand untoucht 'T is to look upon the Cross or Crucifix as proper in a Church to shew that that Place and Congregation belongs to Christ as the Lion and the Vnicorn or Kings Arms to Intimate that they own the King as Supreme Governour 'T is to esteem the Apostles and Martyrs as fit to have place there for preaching the Gospel there deliver'd and ratifying it with their Bloud as Moses and Aaron for publishing the Commandments or as Queen Elizabeth for establishing the Religion by her Statutes As he is a Papist therefore he cannot have a good Opinion of those who love all sorts of Pictures whether of Relations Landskips Monsters Dogs or Devils but can brook nothing of Christ or his Mother who with Satisfaction enough can Admit of Mahomet Luther Calvin a suffering Russel or Sidney The Saviour of the Nation any Prophane or Immodest Picture whatsoever but presently turn Stomach at the sight of the Worlds Redeemer upon the Cross at any Passage of Christs Passion or sacred Mystery of our Religion represented in Colours No better Christians can he esteem those who cannot endure to be without their Signet to shew their Family who cannot see their Shops or Sign-Posts without the Arms of the Company they are Free of who must have their Scutcheon over their Hall doors to publish the Corporation they belong to and yet can allow of nothing to shew they are Christians who can see Crosses on their Houses and Walls both private and public on their Signs Barges their Ships and Colours as often as you will to speak them belonging to Citizens but a Cross to declare themselves Christians they repute as intollerable These he cannot much esteem for their Christianity as to this Point since he sees they are ashamed of nothing but what is to shew them to be Christians Secondly as to what concerns the Respect and Veneration He shews to Sacred Images of Christ his Mother or Apostles c. he does nothing but what Nature and Reason oblige him too and to explicate what this is he needs no more than declare that as a Loyal Wife who has a tender Love and sincere Respect for her Husband cannot chuse from the pressing Impulse of innocent Nature but have a Love and Respect for his Picture and expresses that Love by kissing it and hanging it at her Breast in the same manner He having a hearty Love and true Honour in his Soul for his Blessed Redeemer Apostles and Martyrs of Christ cannot hinder the irresistable force of Nature from having a Respect and Honour for their Pictures and this same Respect he expresses by kissing them placing them in his Oratory the Church c. Again as Christians Honour and Respect the Bible above all other Books and tho it be made of nothing but Paper Ink Leather Pastboard like all other Volumes yet because the Stroks of that Ink are so order'd and joyn'd in that Paper that they Signifie and Represent to him the Doctrine and Passion of Christ c. for this Reason they cannot chuse but Love and Respect and Honour this Book and if in reading and perusing it any more devout than the rest express these Sentiments of their Souls by kissing it never taking it into their Hands but with an awful Reverence with their Heads uncovered and on their bended knees they do nothing but to the Honour and Glory of God and what may without Superstition or Suspicion of giving Idolatrous Worship to the Paper or Ink of that Book be paid to that Sacred Volume and what has been the Practice of many holy Christians and Saints Upon the same Account and for the
the ridiculing of Popery but the same if followed on will as certainly undermine the Truth of the whole Gospel and cut the Sinews of all Religion This Heathen-Catechist has not gone one tittle beyond the Copy set him in the True-representing Catechism and you see how fearfully it begins to work The citation of three or four words out of a Hymn was Argument enough to lay the Papists flat for so many stupid Sots and has any thing been here asserted against the Protestants but what has been supported by as plain and express words as those of the Popish hymn If in the one case therefore this way of proving do's not hold how comes it to be so conclusive in the other Misrepresent The Words 't is true of the Scripture cited in this Mock-Catechism are as plain and express as can be but they are here made use of in a sence never intended by those Divine Pen-men the Authors of Sacred Writ who tho they have the very words cited yet never meant them as here they are brought in their literal and rigid sence but some of them Figuratively some of them in Conformity to our Apprehensions some of them in the Person of another c. and begin thus understood they make no reflection upon Protestancy or Christanity but are truly edifying Repres This is honestly said and if you could but do so in any others case besides your own there would be more peace in this Nation and above half the Devils that disturb its quiet would be laid Had the True-representing Catechism but thus impartially interpreted the words of the Hymn above mention'd and given the true sence of it he had never been set upon the File of Misrepresenters But to charge bluntly an absurdity upon the Papists and to pretend to prove it against them from their own plain words without discovering their meaning is to do the same as our Heathen-Catechist has perform'd to the life defaming Christianity from the express words of Scripture and both alike by Misrepresenting Would you and such whose thriving depends much upon your Art see to give every thing its true weight and sence and shew the right side outward of every thing you expose to the admiring Crowds this sincere and honest dealing would much more recommend you to well meaning people than the more fashionable way of blackning and ridiculing your Neighbours But an ill habit is not easily laid by 'T is matter of some Admiration to me to consider how uneven your Proceedings are in this kind how readily you can discover a speech to be figurative when that sence best serves your own turn And how in other occasions nothing of Figure can be found when the literal sence will serve to cast an infamy upon the Papists The Fathers in their Works do very frequently address themselves to the Martyrs and Saints in Heaven desiring their Assâ—stance and Prayers that they would joyn with them in their Requests Nay they expresly say that the Saints ought to be pray'd to Now because this do's not favour your Cause in the literal sence 't is strange how industrious you are to suck out the substance and to blow it all up into a Figure and those express Prayers are no Prayers but rather Raptures Innocent Wishes Rhetorical Flights and Apostropâ—es On the other side tho the Papists are never any where directed to pray to the Cross have no Prayers to the Cross yet because in one of their Hymns are found two words literally implying a Prayer to it Oh! this must be taken literally here no Figure can be discover'd no Rapture no Innocent Wish Rhetorical Flight or Apostophe altho the whole Hymn be nothing but a Poetical composure which without any injury to Christian Truth takes the liberty of such Innocent Flights Thus are you sometimes for Figures and somtimes for no Figures managing every thing as will best contribute to the advancing your own Cause the running down Popery and making it odious with the People This seems to be your chief aim in all your Performances and the only Measure of your Comments and Interpretations I wish you would be more serious in a Concern of this moment and not expose thus the Reputation of the greatest part of the Christian World to the mercy of every little Conceit and petty imaginary Proof Such Arguments as these might serve well enough for a Christmas-Nights Entertainment but to insert them for a Catechism-Proof when the Subject is Religion and the Guidance of Souls is very unseasonable and improper especially when true Representing and doing it faithfully is pretended in the Frontispiece Misrepresent Do'nt run your self out of Breath upon this Point you have another yet to speak to viz. Why the Papists go in long Pilgrimages to certain Images if they do not Pray to them or hope to be better heard for Praying there Represent That 's another of the Catechism Proofs but for a Diversion there 's another Piece calls for a Word or two Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's most Excellent Majesty for His Houshold and Chappel 1686. THE PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented SECOND PART CHAP. III. Whether the Doctrine of Transubstantiation be contrary to the Writings of the Primitive Fathers or agreeable to them The Papist believes his Senses in this Mystery as much as the Protestant being Notes upon a late Pamphlet intit'led The Papists Doctrine of Transubstantiation not agreeable to the Primitive Fathers The Papist Misrepresented by the wonderful Advantages of Implicit Faith and Prejudice is preserv'd in Ignorance and led into the most Monstrous of Errors By these helps the late Inventions of Men are shamm'd upon him for the Doctrine of the Primitive Church and what was never known to the Ancient Fathers takes place in his Creed as Their most constant and profess'd Doctrine This is evident in many Particulars but most clearly as to the Point of Transubstantiation which the Primitive Fathers were so far from holding that They believ'd the direct contrary Indeed we have from the Writings of the Fathers so many plain Places against this Doctrine that we cannot conceive how it came into the World so that notwithstanding the Papists pretence to Antiquity in this Point we shall find they are meer Gibeonits who have made use of their moldy bread and clouted shoes to deceive the People of the Lord and that they confidently lay claim to the Fathers for the defence of this Point which upon examination is found quite contrary to their Belief Sum. of the Pamphl THe Papist Represented admits nothing to take place in his Creed but upon such strong and convincing Motives that none can accuse him of Ignorance or Error but those who have their Judgments swallow'd up by Prejudice and whose Passion has over-run their Reason The Inventions of Men are with him but of little value they may be the Subject of his Opinion but no concern of his Faith This bids them
those expressions of the Fathers are only occasional or accidental but where they treat professedly of this Subject they speak plainly in our behalf and to follow the Rule of one of the Lights of your Church as you stile him in this Pamphlet I would fain know whether a mans judgment must be taken from occasional and incidental passages or from design'd and set discourses which is as much as to ask whether the lively representation of a man by Picture may best be taken when in haste of other business he passes by us giving only a glance of his Countenance or when he purposely and designedly sits in order to that end that his Countenance may be truly represented There 's no Book treats so fully and demonstratively of any Subject in one place but occasionally speaking of the same elsewhere from some obscure or dubious expression furnishes matter for an Objection against the Doctrine before designedly establish'd This is true even of the Bible it self which teaching Christ to be True Man do's yet by the occasional expression of St. Paul saying that he appear'd in Habit as a Man and in the Likeness of a Man give occasion to some to object that he was no Real and Substantial Man which strikes at the very Fundamental Truth deliver'd in that Sacred Volume and if this be true even of the Word of God it self what wonder to find it in the Works of the Fathers much more ample and voluminous Misrepresent This is another shift with a help of a Logical distinction however let this pass too But as long as you don't believe your sences but deny the certainty of those Powers which God has given us to lead us to the Belief of all the Mysteries of Christian Religion I am sure you contradict the Fathers and are in a fair way of undermining the very foundation of Christianity Represent This is the Cock-Argument of the other Light of your Church and it so far resembles the Light that like it it makes a glaring shew but go to grasp it and you find nothing in your Hand Why Misrepresenter even in this Mystery I believe more of my Sences than you do my Eyes tell me there is the colour of Bread and I assent to them my Tongue that it has the tast of Bread I agree to it my smelling that it has the smell of Bread I yield to it my Fingers that it feels like Bread I accept of the Information my Ears tell me from the Words spoken by Christ himself That it is the Body of Christ I believe these too Is not here Misrepresenter one Sence more than you believe And yet you would fain perswade the World I do not believe my Sences The Sence by which Faith comes is that of Hearing S. Paul possitively affirming that Faith comes by Hearing and how do I overthrow the certainty of Christian Religion by hearkning to that Sence by which all Faith is to be conveyed into my Soul Misrepresent You don't believe your Eyes which assure you of the Substance of the Bread being there even after Consecration Represent If your Eyes see the Substance of things they are most extraordinary ones and better than mine For my part mine never saw farther than the Colour or Figure c. of things which are only accidents and the entire Object of that Sence 'T is Reason or Judgment acquaints me with the Substance and this Judgment 't is true I frame generally from the Information of my Sences excepting when they are indisposed or some Divine Revelation intervenes For in this case I choose rather to judge from This than from my Sences as Abraham did who being told by his Sences That those three that appeared to him Gen 18. were Men and by a Revelation from God that they were Angels judged of them and their Nature according to the Revelation and not according to his Sences Misrepresent You are all upon Quirks and Philosophy to day and I am tired with your Distiactions and so farewel till the Holy-days are over Represent Fare you well but do you hear don't forget to send your People to the Chappels to Morrow Morning to see the Nursing and Rocking the Child in the Cradle This is one of your April-Errands for Christmas Morning and you don't think much of making the Papists ridiculous though it be at the expence of making your own people Fools Publish'd with Allowance London Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the Kings most Excellent Majesty for His Houshold and Chappel 1686. THE PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented SECOND PART CHAP. IIII. The Form of the Catholic Church establish'd by Christ No hopes of Salvation out of it The Practice of the Apostles and Primitive Church in this point Good at this day The Protestants as uncharitably damn the Papists as These are said to do the Protestants In reference to the Preface of Wholsome advises from the B. V. c. THe Papists Misrepresented is Member of a Church which excludes all others from the hopes of Salvation besides those who are within the Pale of her own Communion And no doubt his Church is True if uncharitableness be but a Mark of the True one if it be but safest to be on the uncharitable side he 's beyond all question in the right But certainly this is to leave the Rule of Christ and his Apostles and of the Primitive Church who taught none of this damning Doctrine but ever recommended Charity as the necessary foundation of a Christian life THe Papist Represented is taught that Christ our Saviour before his Ascension into Heaven establish'd a Church consisting of all True Believers amongst which he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the Body of Christ till we all come in the Vnity of Faith. Ephes 4. 11 12 13. These Apostles Evangelists Pastons and Teachers he constituted over the Faithful to over-see rule and direct them to whom he gave them in charge by the mouth of St. Paul Act. 20. 28. Take heed therefore unto your selves and to all the Flock over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you Over-seers to feed the Church of God which he hath pnrchas'd with his own blood with a strict Command to the Flock or Congregation of the Faithful to be obedient to these Pastors thus put over them by the Ordinance of God Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves for They watch for your Souls as they that must give account And vers 7. Remember them which have the rule over you who have spoken unto you the word of God whose Faith follow This command of submitting to Pastors was given to the Flock as he is taught by St. Paul for the preventing Divisions and Schisms that so notwithstanding their differing private Inclinations Capacities Sence and Judgment by this Obedience and Submission to those that
upon the same grounds turn Christianity out of doors and own it to be built on no better foundation than the Ignorant Zeal and Confidence of its Asserters The Motive of St. Augustin for his embracing the Scriptures for the Word of God was the Authority of the Catholic Church he expresly declaring cont Ep. Fundam That he would not believe the Gospel except the Authority of the Catholic Church mov'd him to it From this same Authority it is he receives every Article of his Faith and since in his very Creed he is taught to believe the Holy Catholic Church he thinks he has Reason enough to do it And whosoever taxes him of Weakness or Confidence for so doing do's nothing less than call him a Fool for believing his Creed and this is only one Remove from telling him that if he 'll be Wise and have good Reasons for what he do's he must be no Christian Others may be so Wise as to believe only Eleven Articles of their Creed for his part he thinks it no reflection upon his Wisdom to believe Twelve he was taught so many when he was a Child and he do's not find he has outgrown any one of the number This Catholic Church which by the Creed every Christian is bound to believe is as was explicated in our last the Congregation of all true Believers under the Government and Direction of Pastors and Teachers in an uninterrupted Succession descending from the Apostles who by Gods appointment are set over the Flock to feed and rule it and whom the Flock is oblig'd to hear and obey and whose Faith they are bound to follow in each respective Age. 'T is thus deliver'd to him by St. Paul Heb. 13. 7 17. Remember them which have the Rule over you whose Faith follow Obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves And this way of the Faithful receiving their Instruction in the Christian Belief from the Catholic Church speaking to them by the Pastors and Teachers of the said Church which is the Method he observes as to every Article of his Faith has been always look'd on so sound and reasonable that in the time of the very Apostles and of the Primitive Church there was never any us'd but this 't was by this means the World first became Christian and by the very same Orthodox Christianity has been always preserv'd in its vigour and purity notwithstanding all the oppositions of Subtle Malicious or Self-interested Adversaries He that has but read the Scriptures cannot but have observ'd that the Method prescrib'd by Cbrist himself for the planting and propagating the Mysteries of his Holy Faith in the World was by ordaining and commissionating Apostles and Disciples to inform all Mankind of his Doctrine and Religion and the only Reasonable Means for any at that time to arrive to the certain Knowledge of the True Faith was to hear and submit to the Doctrine deliver'd by Those that were thus sent to Preach and Teach it This is the way by which the Christian Religion was first planted in the World and by this it has been ever since maintain'd The same Pastors and Overseers that were to teach the Gospel having another part of their Charge viz. To stand up in case of any Difficulties or Divisions arising in Point of Faith and by their Decision to put an end to the Controversie So to preserve Unity amongst the Faithful and defeat all the attempts of Turbulent and Presuming Spirits This Method of Pastors and Teachers directing and feeding and the Obligation of the Flock to Submit and Obey as necessary for continuing One Faith amongst Believers he has learnt to be Reasonable and of Divine Institution from the Practice of the Apostles For he finds Acts 15. that a Controversie being started at Antioch concerning the necessity of Circumcision 't was not left to every Particular Believer to think and decide the matter as they judge fit according to the best of their Knowledge and Parts neither did Paul and Barnabas with other Overseers of the Church of Antioch undertake to define any thing in this Particular No what was the Common Concern of all Christians was not to be determin'd by the Rulers and Pastors of any Particular Church but as belonging to All 't was to be remitted to the Consideration and Decision of Those who had All under their Charge that is the Pastors of the Vniversal or Catholic Church And thus did Paul and Barnabas for going up to Jerusalem the Cause was committed to the Hearing and Sentence of All the Apostles and Elders assembled at Jurusalem And as 't was determin'd by Them thus in Body 't was receiv'd by the Faithful with consolation not only at Antioch but in all other Places wheresoever the Gospel of Christ was preach'd by the Apostles who as they went through the Cities deliver'd them the Decrees for to keep that were ordain'd of the Apostles and Elders who were at Jerusalem Act. 16. 4. This was the Practice of the Apostles as it stands recorded in Holy Writ providentially there describ'd that their Successors the Rulers and Pastors of the Church in future Ages from this Authentic President might be provided of a Means whereby to maintain a Vnity in Faith amongst all True Believers however spread throughout the different and divided Nations of the Universe and know how to give a check to all growing Schisms and Heresies As therefore the Apostles put a stop to this Debate concerning the Circumcision by determining in Council in what manner the Faithful were to be taught were to believe and do in this Particular and by this Determination preserv'd the Vnity of Spirit in the Bond of Peace amongst the Faithful and prevented the many Divisions which otherwise might have torn the Flock asunder had they been every one lest to their own thoughts to judge of it as they pleas'd In like manner did the Pastors of the Church succeeding them in their Charge in the like Circumstances for when there appear'd any entring in among the Flock as was foretold by St. Paul Act. 20. 29. and like grievous Wolves not sparing it but speaking Perverse things to draw away Disciples after them The Overseers who were to feed the Church of God and commanded by the same Apostle to Watch and take heed to all the Flock ib. v. 28. assembled in Council and by their Determination declar'd to all under their Charge the Faith deliver'd and directed them which way to believe as to the Point in debate This was the Practice of the Primitive Church when as yet acknowledg'd Pure and Vncorrupted Thus did the Pastors then in the First General Council at Nice decide the Controversie rais'd by Arius thus they did in the Second at Constantinople in the Third at Ephesus in the Foutth at Chalcedon The Faithful always receiving with great Veneration the Determination of their Pastors thus Assembled and looking upon this Submission to their Doctrine as the most Reasonable Means whereby
Cross and Chrism with the Doctrine of Real Presence Transubstantiation Reservation of the Sacrament worshipping it and offering it in Sacrifice as propitiatory for the Living and the Dead with the Mixture of Water and Wine in the 〈…〉 Consecration With the Sign of the Cross in Baptism Abrenunciation Exorcism anointing with Oyl and other Ceremonies us'd in Baptism With holding Infants dying without Baptism not to be Sav'd The Bishop Confirming the Baptized with Chrism and keeping the Chrism in a Box with Consecration of Chrism by a Bishop only with solemn Translation of Saints Relics their Worship placing them under the Altar Pilgrimages to them and Diseased Persons thereupon cured With Images in the Church and Lights in the Day time With Anchorites Ermites Abbots and Monks their Vow'd Chstity Voluntary Poverty vow'd Chastity of Virgins Monasterys of Virgins their Veil and Habit the Fast from Flesh in Lent Funeral Rites Anniversary Days Prayer for the Soul of the Deceas'd Party from Apostolic Tradition With a set Form of Prayer Litanys numbring Prayers upon little Stones With Worshipping the Cross Signing the Forehead with it With attributing to it Vertue of Consecrating the Sacrament of driving away Devils Witchcraft c. In like manner with Deacons Subdeacons Acolites Exorcists c. with farther mention of the Prtests Vnction Ecclesiastical Vestments the Albe the Stole Dalmatica and Cope c. With teaching that Priests might not marry after being ordain'd With Magnificent Churches Consecrated with Celebration of Mass appointed to be said in no places but such as were hallow'd by a Bishop With affirming the Church to be built upon Peter With teaching Peters Primacy and deriving the same from Peter to his Successor the Bishop of Rome whose Episcopal See the Antient Fathers do therefore term Peters See Peters Chair honouring the same with a peculiar Festival Day and decreeing even Publick Prayer to be made for the Pope in Mass time and finally with several examples of confess'd Primacy in the Bishop of Rome Misrepresent Bless me Man Why we are over Head and Ears in Popery I have not Patience to hear any more of this kind of Trumpery I see if I let you have the searching for the Protessant Religion in the Primitive Times we shall never find it Represent I see but little hopes of it indeed hitherto And yet what can a Man do more for your advantage than I have here done I enquire of I rotestants Where one must look to find their Religion in former Times They tell me Their Religion is the same that was profess'd by the Primitive Christians in the First Four Five or Six Hundred Years after Christ I examine those Years and not to be biass'd by Passion or Prejudice I make use of Protestant Spectacles to look back upon those Past Ages And yet you see what kind of Protestant Religion we meet with Were it not for your saying They were Protestants one might swear without scruple the Christians of those times were downright Papists I have deliver'd to you hitherto nothing of the Profession and Practice of those Ages but what your own Protestant Historians deliver to me And how can I think the Christians were then Protestants when Your own Historians and Controvertists mark out to me the most Eminent and Leading Men of those Times for Papists Come let me tell you This is enough to make any Man stumble And tho you pretend to go by Sâ—nse and Reason in your Religion Yet methinks to hear the Protestants of the Last Age condemning the Times now under question for Papistical and you with your Modern Divines appealing to them for Protestant is not very agreeable either to Sense or Reason and to be free with you I must een renounce them both if you intend I shou'd follow you Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XIII The Professors of Popish Doctrines in the Primitive Times no Protestants but Papists Popish Tenets not only the Opinions of Private Doctors but the Doctrine of the Primitive Church The Four First General Councils no Protestants Representer WELL met to day Misrepresenter I hope now you have slept upon our last Discourse you will not press me much with turning Protestant since having now Examin'd the Religion of the Primitive Times we cannot discover but that what you call Popery was as Generally profess'd by the Christians of those Purer Ages as under Hen. 8. when your New Apostles set up for Reformation Misrepresent You would fain perswade me to it I know this is the Trap you lay to catch Converts But you 'l be mistaken in me I am too well acquainted with all your Wiles Repres No No as for your particular I e'en despair 'T is Good Well-meaning People such as have made it the First of their Morning Prayers to God to Direct them to the Truth such as have dealt justly and honestly with their Neighbours have spoke ill of none have rais'd no Lying Reports nor have been maliciously Industrious in spreading them such as these I willingly Discourse and have hopes to prevail with But for you that talk loud of Reason and have none You that fleer and flurt and blaspheme every thing you do not understand You that suck in Hatred against your Neighbour with your Milk and afterwards nourish it by Obstinacy and Passion and continue to malign him you know not why You that condemn your Neighbor upon a bare Presumption and pass Sentence against him upon Fables and Hear-says and perswade all your Acquaintance to do the like for you I say nothing less than a Miracle can change your Heart and unless some favourable Ray of Mercy shine upon you to cure this Blindness as you have liv'd so I fear you 'l die in Darkness Misrepres What dooming me already Repres Your want of Charity is a Presage of your Doom 'T is but beating the Air to Discourse with you However Once again Don't you often charge me with believing the Errors and Superstitions of Popery and importune me no longer to admire those Fopperies but as I tender my Salvation to renounce them all heartily and become a Good Protestant Misrepres Yes I do And 't is the Doctrine I Preach up every where for the good of Souls And I give the Reason Because the Protestant Religion is the Pure Religion as 't was Profess'd heretofore by the Christians in the Primitive Times Repres 'T is that Religion I desire to be a Member of But how can I believe that That was the Protestant Religion If I am to pin my Faith upon your Sleeve tell me so But if I am to be convinc'd of it by Reason how is it possible I shou'd be of your Mind and think so since having now taken a fair Prospect of the Religion of those Ages from the Best and most Impartial Historians we find Popery to have been then
Gifts is Christ himself 't is not done by Human Power the Priests hold but the Place of Ministers That they believ'd the Bread Sanctifi'd by the Word of God to be Chang'd into the Body of God by the Word Misrep The Fathers in all these Expressions speak only as Orators Figuratively or Morally but not as Divines and so all this advances nothing for Popery Repres Well hold I le say this for you This is the most artificial Knack of making the Ancient Fathers no Papists that could possibly be invented Luther and the rest of that Age were certainly Dull Souls so severely to Censure the Fathers for being infected with Popisâ— Errors whenas if they had understood the Efficacy of these Three or Four Words RHETORICALLY COMPLEMENTALLY CIVIL-RESPECTFULLY FIGURATIVELY and MORALLY and known the Right Vse of them they might have made the Primitive Fathers to have deliver'd as Good Protestant Doctrine as any Modern Divine has done since the Reformation Misrep You are in the right but such Discoveries as These are not the Product of one Age. This could not be expected from the First Reformers who had their Hands full and many Irons in the Fire 'T was enough for them to condemn all such Expressions and Writings whether of Primitive Fathers or Others that did any ways seem to disagree with the Reform'd Principles But our Modern Controvertists who have had more Leisure and Contrivance and look'd more â—arrowly into the Text have now made all that Sound Protestancy which by the First Reformers was taken for Rank Popery and all this by Interpreting and Declaring what is spoken by the Ancient Councils and Fathers by way of Complement of Civil Respect of Oratory of Figure or Moral Discourse Repres Really this is admirable But pray now tell me May not this Method of Interpreting sometime or other be likely to do Mischief and as you by this Art of Popery have made Protestancy may not some other by the same way of Christianity make Judaism Infidelity or Atheism and at last make every thing of any thing Misrep How so Repres As now if when We as Christians proving Christ to be the Son of God alledge Joh. 10. 30. I and my Father are One any Pretending Interpreter should come and say This is only a RHETORICAL FLIGHT When we quote Luke 1. 11. Thou art my beloved Son he should say This is a COMPLEMENT When we prove Obedience to Superiors by Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that have the Rule over you and Submit your selves he should say This is only for a MUTUAL CORRESPONDENCF or CIVIL RESPECT If to all the Duties of a Christian commanded in Holy Writ of Living Soberly not Bearing False Witness Being Subject for Conscience sake Loving our Neighbour Not making Divisions Honouring Parents Not Stealing c. he should thrust in those little Interpreting Words and make all this to be spoken Figuratively or by way of Complement would not this be a very fair way of turning Christianity out of doors and making the next Generation Infidels by the same Rule as you have made the Ancient Fathers to be Protestants Let any thing be deliver'd never so expresly either in Scripture or Fathers 't is but the Interpreting it by way of Figure Complement or Morally and it changes the whole Sense and makes any thing of any thing There would be no great difficulty by this Art of making the Bible speak the Language of the Alcoran And if this be your Way of making Protestants of the Primitive Fathers 't is but applying your Rule home and you may make the Trent-Fathers as much Protestants as They. Misrep Well I am bound to stand to 't that the Ancient Fathers were Protestants still But suppose They were not I could not tell how to turn Papist A Papist is such an Unreasonable and Absurd kind of Christian that a Man had as good be of no Religion at all aâ— be a Papist Repres It may be so indeed as you understand a Papist If a Papist were really what you seem to render him to the People I should as heartily detest him and his Religion as you and yours do and should not wonder to see you more concern'd at your Neighbour's turning Papist than when he becomes Jew or Atheist Misrep Let 's hear then what Your Papist is and I le tell you what Mine is But let 's have none of these Interruptions and quick Turns When I have said my Say do you take yours I le give you no disturbance I have some Eight or Ten Points to touch at and if you 'l let me have my Humour let 's return to our Old way of Papist Misrepresented and Represented Repres Well as you please but pray consider whether Silence will not be more agreeble to these Times of Peace Do you go Your Way and I 'll go Mine if you think fit Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel MDCLXXXVI Pap. not Misrep by Prot. p. 5. Answ to Pap. Prot. p. 17. Pref. Catec p. 49. Postscr Prov. 15. 29. Coloss 1. 10. See Nubes Testium which shews this at large S. Ambr. l. de Vid. Obsecrandi sunt Angeli Martyres obsecrandi Dr. St. Serm. at Whitehall pr. 3d. Pref. Idol of the Church of Rome Ed. 1 p. 3. 2 Pet. 3. 16.
Profess'd with as little Control or Contradiction as t is at this Day in Italy or Spain I am sure if you should be told of any Neighbour of yours in this City that in his Devotions desires the Prayers of the Saints in Heaven Prays for the Souls of the Faithful Departed keeps Anniversary Days Signs his Forehead with the Sign of the Cross uses Exercisms Oyl Breathing and other Ceremonies in Baptizing his Children c. you would presently cry out A Papist A Papist And if you Censure such an one for a Papist now how can you perswade me the Primitive Christians were Protestants whom we have found Professing such Doctrines and Practices If it be Popery now to do so how was it Protestantism then Either you must make them Protestants that Teach those things at this Day amongst us or else they were none who Taught and Practis'd them heretofore Come I le ask you one Question Had you liv'd in those Days of the Primitive Church would you have Communicated or joyn'd with those Priests and Numerous People who after the Decease of Constantine were Praying round the Hearse for the Soul of the Emperour as 't is related by Eusebius de Vit. Const lib. 4 cap. 71 If you would not I conclude Those Priests and People were none of Your Church that is no Protestants And yet while you would have stood out then as Recusant I am confident such as at this Day Pray for the Soul of Charles 2. would then have Pray'd for Constantine's had they been then Living And These are such as you call Papists By which my Reason informs me That if â—le be a Christian as Christians were in the Primitive Church I must be no Protestant but a Papist since the Protestants of our Days would no more have joyn'd with the Christians of those Times than they do now with the Papists Misrepres You triumph now as if you had gotâ—a Victory and yet you have hiâ—herto done just nothing All your Proofs end in nothing but some Particular Instances and so I confess you have shewn some Private Doctors some Particular Men to have been acknowledg'd as infected with Popery in those Primitive Times by our Centuriators and other Protestant Divines But what 's all this to the Primitive Church Some Private Doctors and Opiniators might then be Papists 't is true but the Church was nevertheless Protestant Examine the Four First General Councils which were at that Time the Church Representative and you 'l see nothing Decreed by them but what We hold as Protestaâ—ts Repres You are for having me take all upon trust And tho' you cry out against Pinning Faith upon Sleeves yet I see if I don't pin my Faith upon your Sleeve I shall never be Protestant You Preach to me I must be guided by Reason and 't is not enough to Say the Primitive Church was Protestant but you must Prove it too if you 'l convince my Reason For my part by the Progress we have hitherto made I think I have Reason to think that not only some Private Men but that the Whole Church was then Popish as you call it For let us but reflect a little Who were These Men who by your Modern Protestants are accus'd of Popish Doctrines in those Times of Constantine and the Two Following Ages and we shall find they were the most Eminent the mosh Learned the most Exemplar and Best Men of their Times they were S. Augustine S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Athanasius S. Ambrose S. Gregory Nazianzen Nyssen S. Basil S. Hilary S. Cyril S. Paulinus S. Epiphanius c. These were the Men who living in those Primitive Ages of the Church are condemn'd and rejected by Modern Protestants for holding and maintaining Popish Doctrines These are they who are charg'd with Popery by the Centuriators by Osiander Chemnitius Melancthon Bullinger Beza Whitaker Humfrey Covel Whitgift Abbot Morton Fulk Trig Cartwright Field Hooker c. Now I need not ask here being upon Enquiry into the Faith of the Primitive Church whether Those Ancient Fathers cannot in all likelihood better inform me what was the Faith and Doctrine of the Church of their Times than other Modern Teachers who had not a Being in the World till Twelve or Thirteen Hundred Years after But I may consider with my self whether it be not most agreeable to Reason to think since such Eminent and Vertuous Men and Prelates as just now recited are accus'd of Popery that not only some Private Persons in those Primitive Times but that the Whole Church was then Popish I am assur'd by all Antiquity that these Persons that stand thus Indicted Govern'd the Primitive Church were Bishops Pastors and the most Exemplary of their Age the People or Flock were Instructed and Taught by them So that such Doctrines as they then Publish'd in their Writings and Preach'd to the People without Censure or Reproof I cannot look on as a Private or Closet-Concern but as the Public and Receiv'd Doctrine of their Times and that in the Sermons and Works of the Pastors is seen the Belief of the Flock And this will oblige me to conclude that Such Doctrines and Practices of which these Ancient Fathers and Doctors stand charg'd by Moderns was not the Doctrine of Private Men but of the Whole Church of their Times It being not at all probable to think while the Pastors are thus generally condemn'd for Papists that the People should be Protestants I demand of you Whether the Writings and Books of Protestant Prelates Doctors and Divines Publish'd under Edward 6. and Queen Elizabeth be not an Argument that besides shewing their Private Sentiments will prove likewise the Doctrine and Belief of Their Church and that whosoever quarrels with them for their Protestant Negatives and Dissenting from the Church of Rome do's not in the same Breath condemn their Whole Church of which they were Rulers and Overseers If so have not I equal Grounds to believe that the Concurring Sentiments of the Primitive Fathers was the Sense of the Primitive Church and that the accusing them of Popish Doctrines and Principles is a Condemnation of their Whole Church over which God had plac'd them Prelates Pastors and Teachers So that by all my Reason can discover yet if I am to be of the Religion of the Primitive Times I am to be no Protestant but continue as I am a Papist and if I were not so this your Appealing to the Primitive Church and our Search into it would e'en oblige me to renounce Your Communion who only make a Noise of the Primitive Church and are nothing like it but are as much for Reforming that as you did the Church of Henry 8. Misrepres Leave these Private Doctors and Fathers and look but into the First Four General Councils and you 'l soon discover that the Church of those Primitive Christians was nothing else but Protestant Repres I find too much of the Pope in those Councils to think they were Protestants The Pope Presides