they ought to be restrained and there are lower punishments than depriving them of their Toleration which are for lower faults 2. But if Rulers will oppress we cannot help that and must not therefore be ungoverned CHAP. LXI Whether the Extirpation of the Non-Conformists be not rather to be attempted than an Vnion with them by these means L. IT 's long since our former Conference and now there is discovered a Treasonable Plot against the King and his Brother and a multitude of Addresses tell us that it was the Plot of the Dissenters and the Product of Conventicles and therefore â—â—ave the extripation of them all and that they may no more be trusted as having Principles were concileable to Monarchy and Subjection and the loudest cry now runs that way M. What is the Treasonable Plot L. To Kill the King and Duke and raise an Army and to Change the Government or Governours at least M. Who do they mean by Dissenters or Conventiclers L. All that Conform not to the Church of England as it is now setled by the Law. M. The Law setleth the Essentials Integrals and Accidents of the Church Do you mean every one that disliketh any one Office as Lay-Chancellors use of the Keys or any Ceremony or Form If so I do doubt most that come to Church and Communicate with it dissent from some such Circumstances L. Well suppose it be those that separate from it M. There are now these following sorts of known Dissenters called by many Conventiclers I. Those that like the way of Episcopacy and Liturgy best as here setled but yet will also occasionally join with other Churches as the French Dutch Lutheran or some Non-Conformists II. The Pacifick Non-conformists who at the King's Return Petitioned for Arch-Bishop Vsher's Model of the Primitive Episcopal Government and thankfully accepted the King's Declaration III. The Presbyterians who are for Government only by Synods of equal Presbyters Teaching joined with meer Ruling ones IV. The Independants and Separatists V. The Anabaptists who are half Arminians and half not VI. The Fifth-Monarchy Party most of which are Anabaptists also VII The Quakers VIII The Papists IX The Infidels Iews Hobbists and Atheists Is the meaning that all these are the guilty Rebels to be destroyed or which of them is it L. If all I doubt the King would lose no small part of his Subjects But you know the Papists are not numbred with the Dissenters or Conventiclers M. Say you so Do those that differ but about a Ceremony or Lay-mans use of the Keys or the largeness and paucity of Bishops Churches dissent more from you than the Papists that would bring King and Kingdom under a foreign Jurisdiction and introduce all the Mass and doctrinal corruptions of their Church Read Bishop Downham's Catalogue of Popish Errours de Anti-Christo or Dr. Willet's Chamier's Iewell 's or any such and judge And do you think that the Mass is no Conventicle or more lawful than the forbidden assemblies of Protestants L. Well But it 's Protestant-Dissenters that I mean. M. So then You would have Protestant-Dissenters rooted out and not Papists or Infidels L. We would have those rooted out that were in the Plot which the Papists were not M. No doubt but such a Plot as you describe deserveth the extirpation of those that were guilty of it But I pray you compare not the innocency of Papists in their Principles with the Protestants Or read Bishop Barlow's and Hen. Fowlis's Books and Prin's History of Bishops Treasons and judge as you see cause But it 's none of my business now to accuse the Papists Do but grant that the innocent should not suffer for the crimes of the guilty and we are agreed L. But is it not justly supposed that the whole Party is guilty of those Principles which have caused particular mens rebellions and that it is their Preachers and Conventiclers that have caused all M. You that are a Lawyer should know somewhat of the Rules of Iustice or Humanity at least Come on and let you and I consider soberly of the case And first to your face I challenge you to name and prove any the least difference between the Non-conformists who sought for Concord at the King's Restoration or the party of meer Non-Conformists and the Protestants of the Church of England in their Principles about the Power of Princes and the Subjection and Patience of the People Name any difference if you can L. You would make one believe that great Numbers are inhumanely impudent that charge them with such heinous difference if there be none M. Why do you not name the difference if there be any Contrarily 1. We all take the same Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy 2. We Subscribe all the same Articles of Religion about the Power of Magistrates 3. We have often professed our consent to all that is written for Magistracy and Subjection in all the Scripture in any General Council save what is for the Papal Tyranny over Princes and People or in any Confession of any Christian Church Greek Papist or Protestant that ever we saw and for all that for the Power of Kings but not all against it which the generality of Fathers Historians Philosophers Politick-writers Lawyers Canonists or Divines are for And is not all this yet enough 4. I have oft told you where e.g. Bishop Andrews in Tortura Torti Sir Fran. Bacon Lord St. Albans and many others have vindicated the principles of the English Non-conformists as the same with the Church's in point of Loyalty against the Papists accusations L. But do not you know who wrote the Political Aphorisms or Holy Common-wealth condemned lately by the Oxford Convocation M. And do not you know 1. That the Author had never leave to confute his accusers about it 2. Do you not know that he hath divers years ago written a large Book called his Second Plea for Peace fully opening the Principles which he and his Consenters hold and no man hath writteâ— one word against any of them that I hear of to this day Is this fair dealing then to silence what at large he owneth and name only a writing 29 years ago which he never was heard about 3. Do you not know that the Famously Learned Tho. White a Papist wrote at the same time the like Doctrine and will you charge that on the Party of Papistâ— 4. The Historians Rule is Distingue de temporibus Do you know in what times that was written And know you not that few men then living wrote and spake more plainly against the Usurpation than he did 5. And you see that the Oxford Convocation condemn the writings and principles of the Doctors of the Church of England as well as others And as for Knox and Buchanan we are no more guilty of their words than of Iewell 's Bilson's Hooker's Laud's or any such L. But if you differ not from the Church of England in Principles of Loyalty why do you not take the
to work in Bed or go abroad Naked Men that need Marriage must Marry and then liberis operam dare but not to do this before they Marry So Persons that are unfit for the Sacrament must be fit and then receive it but not before they are fit Now if you can force them by a Gaol out of Ignorance unbelief and ungodliness it will be a very charitable work Otherwise you force them upon Sacriledge and Profanation to their Damnation Why else doth the Common-Prayer Book perswade the Blasphemers and hinderers of God's Word and the uncharitable not to come to that Holy Table lest the Devil enter into them as he did into Judas and fill them with all unrighteousness to the destruction of Body and Soul. L. But they that are forced to come will be liker to take preparing Care than if they be let alone M. Look over the foregoing instances Will you make a Law among Heathens that all shall be baptized that this may draw them to believe Or will you Command all Students to Administer the Sacraments that this may draw them to Study and be Ordained c. We disswade you not from forcing all to Hear and Learn But do you think that it is so easie and small a Matter to bring a Man to Repent and Believe and give up his Heart and Life to Christ and prefer Heaven before Earth and a holy Life before a fleshly and worldly Life as that it is but say Do it or thou shalt go to Iail What need a Saviour a sanctifying Spirit a teaching Ministry c. if it be so easily done at a Command Will the fear of a Jail make Men believe the Gospel or Love God Oh how little doth this way savour of any true Knowledge of the State of Man or what Faith or Sanctification is L. Wherein lyeth the Sinfulness of such force M. 1. It seemeth to make a New Gospel-Condition or contradict Christ's Christ saith That none can be his Disciple except he forsake all and follow him This Course saith Thou shalt be saved by Christ if thou hadst rather Communicate than lose all and lie in Jail The Sacrament is an Investing delivering of Pardon and right to Christ and Salvation And none but those that desire them above all the World are capable of these And to give them to the forced and unwilling is contrary to the Gospel 2. It seems to put a Lie on Christ as if he had ever made any such gift 3. It tendeth to deceive poor Souls 4. It forceth them on Sacriledge Hypocrisie Prophanation and Damnation 5. It may distract those Persons with terror who are conscious of their unfitness or those Melancholy Christians that under Temptation tremble for fear of taking their own damnation 6. It polluteth the Church and confoundeth the Infidels Catechumens and Fideles 7. It thereby filleth the Church with such wicked men as prove worse Enemies to the godly than those without 8. In all Elections the Major part of wicked forced Communicants will carry it to chuse Ministers like themselves and carry Church Matters according to their wicked minds 9. Good men seeing this are ready to be frightned out of the Church to Separation as men run out of a ruinous House lest it fall on their Heads or fly from a noisome place with loathing 10. And then the Crowd that thus get Church possession will revile them as Schismaticks and Sectaries and Hypocrites and persecute and destroy them if they can Are not all those sad effects of turning a Church into a Prison and forcing men to seem to take that which Christ professeth he doth not give them And of casting holy things to Dogs and Pearls before Swine and cramming and drenching those with the Body and Blood of Christ who have no right till they desire and beg it and can sell all to buy this precious Pearl We dare not Assent Consent or Swear to such a Course as this nor publish an Excommunication against such men on this account It 's an odd thing to cast men out because they will not come in And I pray you how can Ministers in great Cities and Parishes perform this Canonical Obedience to give in to the Bishop or Chancellor the names of all that Communicated not at Easter when they know not the hundredth part of the Parishioners in some places I do believe that in the two Parishes that I last lived in there are above fourscore thousand Souls And is it like that the Ministers know twenty thousand of these I have been at their Communion even at Easter and Whitsuntide and I never saw five hundred there And if they gave in the names of but twenty or forty thousand Non-communicants tho' it 's like there are nearer two hundred thousand in this Diocess what work would the Bishop and Chancellor have Cannot you easily imagine what their Discipline would be and how they would exhort each Person one by one to Repentance and plead with them for conviction and resolve their doubts Doth not this one thing tell you what the English Diocesan Episcopacy is that giveth one man the Disciplining of many hundred Parishes L. You talk as if you would have a Church of Saints and seem to make Religion too serious a business It is well if we could have a Church of Civil Men and Peaceable Subjects that will use Religion for the Civil Interest as far as will serve the will of Governors and the Common Peace M. I am sure St. Paul wrote to no Church but such as he called Saints and I am sure Christ will save none but Saints An unsanctified Christian and a Church not holy are contradictions in adjecto Christ came not to set up a meer worldly Kingdom and to devise a Religion to serve the Will Ambition or Interest of worldly men nor meerly to promote Civility Wealth and Peace If this be all that you would have go to Aristotle Plato Seneca Plutarch Cicero c. You need not be Christians for this But yet we pretend not to know mens Hearts It is visible Saints that the visible Church consisteth of and with whom we must have visible Communion And it is not left to the will of every Pastor whom he will take for a Saint for then Churches would be of as many sorts or degrees as Ministers strict or loose Opinions are But Christ hath himself made the Articles Essential to Christian Faith and Practice and the Baptismal Covenant and required us to take those into the Church who seriously profess Belief and Consent till they null that Profession by a contrary Profession or Conversation which must be proved against any man before he is rejected For the Church is not a Society to be arbitrarily made or unmade at every Ministers or Bishops will but hath from Christ the fixed Laws of its Constitution and necessary Administration better than our 141 Canons But indeed you have toucht our sore For my part I am past doubt that we should all
live in Peace and Christian Piety if all yea all Bishops and Priests were but agreed at the Heart what it is to be a Christian and whether the Gospel be certainly true and whether Christ be the Son of God or a deceiver and whether there be a Life after this and a Judgment of all according to their works Yea were they but heartily agreed that there is a God who is the Rewarder of them that diligently seek him and a punisher of the wicked The dispute seems to me to be whether we shall be Christians indeed or worldly Hypocrites called Christians and whether we shall use the Name of God Christ and Religion for Christ and Holiness or for the Flesh against Christ. L. You are very severe in your Censure M. I doubt some will find Christ more severe and be less able to endure his Censure than mine when he shall call some men to account for turning sacred Names and Offices and Ordinances against him to banish Conscience and serious Godliness to say nothing of Veracity common Honesty and Humanity out of the Church and turn his House of Prayer into a place of Merchandise and a Den of Thieves and tempt Turks and Heathens to hate Christians for their wickedness and to fly from the Christian Church lest they should lose all Religion Trustiness and Honesty or the Reputation of them But I speak not now of our Governours whom I leave to God. Chap. XLIII Point XL. Of forsaking our Ministry and ceasing to Preach the Gospel and Banishment Five Miles from Corporations M. THE last part of Ministerial Conformity which I named to you is that if we cannot conform to all aforesaid for fear of Damnation we must cease our Ministry and must not Preach Christs Gospel to any more than four besides our Family nor perform any Worship of God with more but in their way and we must neither dwell nor come within Five Miles of any Burgess Corporation or any place where-ever we lived or travelled and preached since the Act of Oblivion Otherwise we must lye in the common Goal L. Doubtless they that made this Law against you thought you very wicked intolerable men and thought your Preaching very dangerous And indeed so they say of you in the Preface of the Oxford Act. M. They do so and I am glad to find that falseness and wickedness as such is yet disowned in the World and that men do not glory in the very names of them It is a notable evidence that there is a Life of retribution that naughtiness is disowned by all Mankind and the worst would be thought and called honest and true and good and that the World would not Crucifie Christ nor Persecute and Murder his Apostles under the name of righteous holy men but under the name of Malefactors Enemies to Caesar Breakers of the Law and Pestilent Fellows that troubled the Peace and turned the World upside down The Devil himself dare not own the name of Lying Malignity and Murder nor of Persecuting Men for Truth and Goodness and Gods Cause And verily it seemeth the Controversie of many in this Age whether they that scarce speak of God but in Swearing and Cursing nor of Religion but in scorning or threatning the serious practisers of it and that savour little but Eating and Drinking to the full and Playing and getting Riches and hateing all that are stricter than they or those that make Gods Law their rule and Obedience to him the work of their Lives and his serious Worship their delight and Heaven their hope and dare not wilfully sin against God nor be Perjured or Lie I say which of these be the honester Men L. Put you cannot deny that your party hath preached the Nation into Rebellion for the Parliament against the King and therefore are justly sâ—spected till they repent M. 1. What mean you by our party If you mean Nonconformists to the present Laws of Conformity you are easily confuted For the Rebellion was over and the King restored before the present Conformity was Enacted And when there was no such Law there were no Nonconformists to it nor any such Party in being If you mean the old Nonconformists I answer you 1. They were part for the Parliament part against their War and part Neuters 2. There was a multitude of Conformist Ministers for the Parliament for one Nonconformist I have oft proved that there was at the beginning of that Parliament not many more Nonconformist Ministers left in England than were Counties if so many In the Westminster Asâ—eâ—ly there were but seven or eight Englishmen Most of the Sermons before the Parliament which are now most blamed were Preached by Conformists 3. Such as kept in and obeyed the Parliament and Usurpers did most of them Conform of 9000 or 10000 Ministers there were but two thousand that Conformed not And did meer turning to Conformity manifest Repentance 4. But I have oft and oft said if they will silence all that had any hand in Wars except the Conformists and no more we will thank them with great joy For I do not think there are forty that I say not twenty silenced Ministers alive in all England that had any hand in the War against the King. And it 's an odd kind of Justice that should eject and accuse so great a number for other mens Actions 5. But if our Doctrine be Seditious why should not we be allowed rather to Preach openly where Witnesses may convict us and the Law take hold on us than in secret to four where none can convict us 6. And how comes it to pass that whilst so many hundred Ministers are hunted and ruined for Preaching we hear of none at all punished for any False or Seditious Doctrine Do those that watch accuse and ruin us want will to find out our false or ill Doctrine while I am writing this the common talk is two poor Fellows accused such a one and two Beggars or poor Women that stood at the doors took their Oaths against such and such and such many Warrants granted to distrain for Forty Pound or Sixty Pound a Sermon on Ministers and People the Citizens Goods seized and carryed away their Shops made bare many laid in Jayls and thousands waiting for utter ruin of all they have and all this on the account of their Preaching and Hearing as without the Common Prayer and not a word among all these of any False Doctrine spoken 7. And Gods great mercy having of late years opened the Press the Nonconformists have Printed abundance of their Sermons that the World may see what Doctrine they Preached There are two Volumes of Morning Lectures at one place and two at another and one Volume of Lectures against Popery There is a great Volume of Mr. Charnock's Sermons and a great one and maâ—y lesser of Dr. Manton's many Folioâ—s of Mr. Anth. Burgesses divers of Dr. Bates divers of Mr. Richard Alleine's Dr. Gilpin of Temptations and abundance more You
wickedness that wicked men destroy the just and as for sinning that they persecute them that will not sin It is for Religion that Religion is impugned and for the Church that the true Children of the Church are Persecuted And is it for the Gospel that the Preachers of it are silenced and destroyed Without the Church a false Religion is set up against Christianity But within it an Image of Christ and of the Church and of Concord and Religion is set up against Christ Church Concord and Religion and men in the Garb of Magistrates and Pastors do prosecute the War as by Christ's Commission and in his Name And sin is defended and propagated by false pretended opposition If the Iews had known him they would not have Crucified the Lord of Glory Heathens would not for Idols fight against God nor Mahometans for a Deceiver against Christ if they knew what it is that they are doing Christ who was Crucified as a Blasphemer and Rebel foretold his Disciples that they should be kill'd as an act of service to God. Where the Gospel is believed it is a crime so horrid to silence and destroy Christ's faithful Ministers and forbid his publick Worship and render his most conscionable Servants odious and plot their extirpation and ruine that none dare do it but those that know not what they do When Christians as a Sect were every where spoken against Paul was exceeding mad against them and persecuted them to strange Cities and verily thought that he ought to do many things against the Name of Jesus Act. 26. But when he heard from Heaven Why persecutest thou me it stopt his rage and changed his judgment But alas How slender a means will serve to deceive the wicked A meer nick-name or malicious slander yea the avoiding of a sin which they think to be no sin is enough with them to make the best men seem the worst while Perjuries Adulteries Blasphemies Prophaneness Cruelty and Persecution are tolerable motes in the eyes of their Companions All the Holiness Wisdom and Miracles of Christ and his Apostles would not serve to make them pass for good yea or tolerable men while Sadducees who denied Spirits the Resurrection Ceremonious hypocritical blood-thirty Pharisees went for meet Rulers of the Flock And how can it be expected that he who thinks not Holiness desireable to himself should think it any excellency in others Or that he that thinks his own sin but a tolerable frailty should much abhor it in the World Satan then hath his Army not only among Infidels but nominal Christians And it is commanded by Honourable and Venerable Names and he pretends a good and righteous Cause whereever he fighteth against Christ and Holiness But by the fruits he may be known in the greatest pretenders whatever names he call them by It is the most profitable Preaching which he laboureth to suppress and the most faithful Pastors that he would silence the most conscionable Christians whom he striveth to make hateful and the more Spiritual Worship of God which he would hinders And therefore even among Christians we have great cause to warn men to fear least they be enticed into Satan's service against Christ and their own Profession and Salvation And especially in an age 1. Where worldly and cross Interests are set up against the Interest of Christ and Conscience 2. Where these worldly and cross Interests have already wasted Christian Love and Contentions have begun a Mental War. 3. When these have prevailed by scorns and slanders to make Conscionable Christians pass for some contemptible criminal or erroneous Sect and this Reproach is fortified by Honourable and Reverend Names Lest therefore such Causes too visible in the World should draw the ignorant and rash into the dreadful Sin of fighting against the Interest of Christ and Souls by hindering Christ's Ministers from their necessary Work and faithful Christians from worshipping God I will humbly beseech all that are in danger of such Temptations but seriously to exercise their own Reasons in the present Consideration of these following Questions and to take up with no other Answer to them which will not bear weight at Death and Judgment when worldly Pomp and Pleasures leave them and not worldly Interest Wit or Grandeur but the Righteous Lord the Lover of Holiness and Holy Souls will be the dreadful and final Judge The Questions to be well Considered Quest. 1. ARe we not on all sides agreed that we are Mortals posting to the Grave Doth any Man think he shall not die And is striving or mutual Love and Quietness a fitter Passage to the dust Do not all Men constrained by natural Conscience at a dying Hour repent of hurting others and ask Forgiveness of all the World Yea if you are not worse than most Heathens Are we not agreed That Man's Soul is immortal and that we shall all be shortly in another World and that it shall be with us there as we live on Earth If any doubt of this should not the least probability of such an everlasting Life of Joy or Misery prevail against the certain Vanity of such a shadow as this World Or if yet they believe not another Life Why should they not let those live in quietness that do believe it and dare not hazard their everlasting Hopes for nothing as long as they do no hurt to others Q. 2. Do not all Christians believe That the Knowledge of God our Creator and Redeemer and a holy Heart and Life are of necessity to our Salvation Do we not see That Children are not born with Knowledge nor free from fleshly and worldly Inclinations Doth not the World's Experience tell us how hard and how long a Work it is to make the Ignorant understand the very Articles of Faith and necessary Duty to God and man and as hard to perswade their Carnal Minds to the hearty Love and Practice of them and to save them from the damning Love of sinful Lust and worldly Vanities and how wofully the best Teaching is frustrate with the most Q. 3. Are we not all Vowed to God in our Baptism renouncing the Seduction of the World the Flesh and the Devil And do all understand and keep this Vow And is not the perfidious Violation of it a most damning Sin And when Thousands of full Age are yet to learn what Baptism is and what they Vowed Have they not great need to be plainly taught it Q. 4. Is a Baptized Infidel or ungodly Person any better or safer than the Turks or the Salvages in America Will the Name of Christians save perfidious Hypocrites Or Will it not be easier for Sodom than for such Q. 5. If Christian Knowledge and Practice be not necessary Why pray we for Conversion of Heathens and Infidels And Why doth the Article of the Church of England condemn those that hold That all may be saved in their several Religions And what are we better than Turks and Heathens Q. 6. Are not all Men
cost or danger We Pleaded we Wrote we Petitioned and Beg'd for Peace even for that which the King had granted And what could we do more Since then above twenty years we have laboured as we could sometime to few and sometime to more and have patiently lived upon Charity and suffered I need not tell you what L. But why could not you Conform to the Law as well as they M. 1. Can men believe what others list because they bid us Is there nothing that you or they would refuse if it be but commanded you What use have we for a Law of God then If we must disobey it as oft as we are bid that were to renounce God and all Religion and Salvation And we have not our own understandings at command we have offered them our Oaths these twenty years that we would obey them in all except at the rate of sinning and damnation 2. And if we had done as they did we must have profest our Assent and Consent to all things contained in and prescribed by a Book which we never saw For so did we suppose above seven thousand men the Book not coming out of the Press till about the day that they were so to Assent to it Aug. 24. so that no doubt they did it on an implicite trust in others except the few that were in or near London This fully shews that though almost all the nine thousand or more Ministers that were in possession when the King came in did before conform to the way of the Directory and not to the Common-Prayer Book yet there was a great latent difference between the seven thousand that conformed and the two thousand that did not L. But seeing all the stress lyeth upon the question Whether it be only things Lawful indifferent or good which you refuse or any thing which God forbiddeth I pray tell me plainly what it is that you take to be sinful in the Conformity required And what it is that you would have as necessary in its stead M. I will tell you on these Conditions 1. That you pardon me for repeating here what I have already written 2. That you bring not your self a Conscience so laxe as will take nothing for sin which men use to make light of though God forbid it and then think that our Consciences should be as wide as yours 3. That we may premise the things presupposed as agreed on CHAP. II. The things presupposed as agreed on L. WHat are the Agreements which you presuppose M. These following 1. That God is the Absolute Soveraign Ruler and hath made in Nature and in the Sacred Scripture Universal Laws for the whole Church and World And that Kings are His Subjects and Officers and have no Power but what He giveth them directly or indirectly and therefore none against Him no more than a Constable against the Sovereign Power and that he and all men are bound to obey Gods Lawes whoever are against it or forbid it L. I cannot deny this without denying God to be God and the Law of Nature and Scripture to be His Law and Word M. II. That next to his Government God in order of Nature and Time made Self-Government and Family-Government before the Government of Republicks Kingdoms or Cities And that publick Polity hath no Authority to abrogate Self-Government or Family-Government but only to over rule and use them for the common good and safety L. This is undenyable if you state the Governments presupposed 〈◊〉 M. III. That it belongs to Self-Government to discern by reason whether the Commands of Men be against the Commands of God or not which we call Iudicium discretionis by which all men must guide their actions L. Shall every man be a judge of the Law whether it be just and good How unfit are the vulgar to judge of Lawes M. They are no publick judges to decide the case for other men nor doth their judgment restrain or bind the Magistrate nor if they judge amiss will it justifie themselves or suspend the execution of the Law against them But if they must not have the foresaid discerning judgment to guide their actions it will follow 1. That they are not governed nor must obey as Men by Reason and Free-will but as Brutes 2. That Kings have Absolute Power against God and must be obeyed in all that they command e. g. if it be to curse or blaspheme or renouce God or Christ to command the Subject to live in Murder Adultery Perjury c. and so to abrogate the Law of Nature 3. It followeth that there is no God that is a Supream Ruler but the King. 4. And I pray you tell me what you will have the Subjects do in case of Usurpation or Competition for the Government as between the Houses of York and Lancaster Iane and Queen Mary c. when one saith fight for me and the other fight for me If the Subject have not a judgment of discretion to know which is his rightful Sovereign the King must be forsaken He that will stand to the command of another must judge who his Commander is L. And will you have Infants and Idiots judge of their Parents commands Or Children in their minority M. 1. Infants and Idiots have not the use of Reason and so far are to be ruled by force as Brutes And Children in that measure as they are short of reason But 2. If they come to reason and the King command them one thing e. g. what Church to go to and their Parents the contrary would you not have them judge which they must obey 3. Much more if Parents should command them to sin against God to Steal Lye Murder Blaspheme and Curse the King c. surely they must judge as far as they are able L. I cannot deny it proceed in your presuppositions M. IV. That no men have power to command us to damn our Souls or to do any thing that tendeth to it L. None will deny you that but perhaps some things may cease to be sin and dangerous if commanded M. None can dispense with the Laws of God but we grant that some things that are unlawful by some accident or circumstance may become a duty when commanded when the good of Obedience Order and Concord therein weighs down against the accident It may be a sin to go on Warfare before one is commanded and a duty when he is commanded It is a fault in a Servant to go before he is sent and a duty after V. We presuppose that deliberate Lying is a sin L. Is there any one doubts of that M. If they do not our Case will soon be decided But indeed many deny it The Iansenists name you many Jesuit Casuists And Grotiâ—â— de Iure Belli and Bishop Ier. Taylor deny that Lying is any sin when it is profitable and wrongeth none as in a Physician to fice down a Medicine L. And what have you to say to the contrary M. I must not stay
any School-master but an Usher or Monitor or any Physitian or any Mayor or Justice under him 6. That they have set up a false humane Discipline before described instead of Christ's which they have taken down And all this we dare not justifie by a confederacy by Oath IV. And we think that the fourth thing which we stick at needs no other reason suppose the species of Diocesans were of God's appointment and only the numerical Bishops usurpers we can submit and live peaceably but we cannot swear obedience to them They plead more than we for the power of ancient Councils and Canons I have elsewhere fully proved as Paul of Venice hath done and Mr. Clarkson and Dr. Burnet and many others that many great Councils nullified the Episcopacy of all that came in without the election or consent of the Clergy and Flocks And we our selves cannot conceive how any man can be the Pastor of those that consent not though we can easily conceive that Dissenters may oft be obliged to consent when they do not so may a Son or Daughter be obliged to obey their Parents in consenting to Marry such as Parents choose for them when yet it is no marriage till that consent How few in a Diocese ever know of the Bishops Election till it's past and how few consent I need not tell We can submit to these but not swear Allegiance to them V. And in all the foresaid cases we have another disswasive 1. It is so much of the King's Prerogative that all Subjects must swear Allegiance and Fidelity to him that in almost all Nations it hath been thought dangerous to make the Subjects also swear obedience to every Justice or inferior Officer lest it should make them too like Kings 2. Lest the Subjects should be entangled between their Oath to the King and their Oaths to all these Officers in case of the Officers contradiction to the King 's 3. Lest so many Oaths should make that Government a snare to the conscientious which should be for their ease and safety 4. Lest so much swearing make Oaths contemptible and bring in perjury and endanger the King who should by our Oaths be secured 2. And I have elsewhere named many Councils and Canons which prohibit Bishops this practice of making the Clergy swear fidelity to them and have condemned it as of dangerous consequence And they that are for Councils should not engage us causelesly against them 3. The present Impositions greatly stop us till we better know what it is that we must do We have cause to make a stand when we are all sworn never to endeavour any alteration of the Government of the State which we readily obey and yet seem to be called to do that which we are told by some is an alteration of it That is the making of our present species of Archbishops Bishops Deans Archdeacons yea Chancellors Officials Commissaries c. as unchangeable a part of the Government as Monarchy it self is and so disabling the King to make any alteration in them For set all this together and consider 1. All the Clergy is bound or sworn to obey both Bishops and every Ordinary 2. The Canon ipso facto Excommunicates every man that affirmeth that the Church Government under his Majesty by Archbishops Bishops Deans Archdeacons and THE REST THAT BEAR OFFICE in the same is repugnant to the word of God so that all the Lords and Gentlemen in England that have affirmed that the Government by the Keys as used by Diocesans over hundreds of Churches or by Archdeacons Lay Chancellors c. is repugnant to God's word being already ipso facto Excommunicate how far they are capable of being Parliament-men I know not but I suppose if in Parliament they shall affirm any such repugnancy they are Excommunicate and without the Act of King and Parliament no alteration can be made 3. And now to fix them all the Kingdom is sworn never to endeavour any alteration in the Church Government viz. In the Corporation Act the Militia Act the Vestry Act the Oxford swearing Act after the Act of Vniformity And is not every Chancellor or Archdeacon or Bishop now made as immutable necessary a part of the Kingdom as the King L. You speak ignorantly for want of acquaintance with the Law Do you think King and Parliament oblige themselves It is only particular subjects out of Parliament that they oblige M. I. But when the Parliament is dissolved are they not all particular subjects save the King. And are they not all then hereby bound And do you think that it was the meaning of the Act that they who swear never to endeavour alteration may yet endeavour it if they be chosen Parliament men I will manifestly disprove it All these Oaths do joyn the Government of Church and State together Yea and put the Church-Government first as if it had the preeminence But it was never the meaning of the Oath that the Parliament may endeavour to alter Monarchy which is the State-Government Ergo it meant not that they may endeavour to alter Prelacy or Church-Government II. But suppose it be as you say They that know the present thing called the Church of England know that their Writers openly maintain that the Obligation of the Canons depends not on the Parliament save only as to the forceable execution of them but on the authority of the Church as a Society empowred by Christ And therefore that King or Parliaments at least may be Excommunicated by them as well as others All are Excommunicate men that do but call their Government sinful CHAP. VII II. Of the restraint of Ordained Ministers from Preaching and expounding any Scripture or Matter or Doctrine Can. 49. L. WHat is it that you have against Conformity in this M. I. That men are at once made Christ's Ministers and forbid to exercise that which they are Ordained to II. That we are laid under the hainous guilt of breaking our Vow when they have engaged us to make it and of betraying mens Souls by omitting a vowed duty 3. That we are forbidden that which is the duty of every Lay Christian that is able as if they would suppress Religion and Charity it self L. But you do not swear or subscribe to this Canon M. 1. But we are bound by them to obey this Canon for it is the Law of the whole Church of England 2. I have shewed you that swearing obedience to them must mean obeying their Laws which are far more of weight than particular mandates L. But as long as you may have Licenses how doth this put you on any sin of omission or commission M. Both their words and their deeds tell us that they Ordain more than they Licence to Preach or Expound any Doctrine And is it no sinful omission think you for all the rest to forbear all this 2. And many were Ordained heretofore who by the new Act of Uniformity are denyed Licenses without new Professions and Covenants
the Church of any outward thing that I remember But you must note 1. That it is the English way of Confirmation that we speak of 2. And that it is not the thing it self but the denying men Church-Communion that neither have it nor desire it which we here dissent from L. What mislike you in the English way of Confirmation M. I must first tell you how the case stands in matter of fact 1. When Christ sent forth Preachers he endued them not all with equal Gifts and Power Tho' most had some extraordinary Gifts and Inspiration it was made tho' not proper to the Apostles yet for the most part their priviledged above all others that the Holy Ghost was given to those on whom they laid hands for miraculous acts especially sudden speaking of Tongues not learnt and Prophesying tho' the gift of Sanctification necessary to Salvation was given to all true Believers by whomsoever converted 2. When the Apostles were dead and these miraculous Insprirations grew rare first and then ceased unless in some very rare instance yet the ordinary Pastors continued the Custom after Baptism to lay on their hands as for the giving of the Holy Ghost As they did also the Ceremony of Anointing the Sick which had been used for miraculous Cures 3. The dead Ceremonies of laying on of hands for the Holy Ghost and of Anointing being used without the Power and former Effects somewhat else must be though on to keep up their reputation And as to that now in question first they added more to the Ceremony of it and Anointed the Person with Oyl and made the sign of the Cross on him thereby to signifie his being Anointed with the Holy Ghost and fortified thereby to follow a Crucified Christ thro' Sufferings And when it was seen that the Holy Ghost was not thereby given for Miracles they thought that he was given in a double degree for Corroboration And some thought that he was not given at all in Baptism that did but wash away guilt but by Confirmation after 4. Hereby Confirmation got the name of a Sacrament as Anointing the Sick also did and was used presently after Baptism for the most part and the Ceremonies of it were made more pompous and it was appropriated to the Bishop for the most part or if Presbyters did it they must use no Ointment to Anoint and Cross them with but what the Bishop made by mixture and blest to make it holy And because he could not go himself to the Sick the Presbyters must fetch all their Ointment for this also ready made and hallowed from the Bishop 5. When Infants were Baptized they thus presently Anointed them also and called it their Chrysm and Confirmation till then he was taken but for a half or imperfect Christian that was only Baptized and not Confirmed 6. Popery having turned most of Christ Ordinances into a dead Image used these called Sacraments to keep up a Ceremonious shew of Religion and to keep up the power of Bishops in that formal way 7. When Reformation prevailed the Papists seven Sacraments were examined and only Baptism and the Lords Supper found to be Christs Sacraments of the Covenant of Grace Ordination to be the Ministerial Sacrament of Orders or Consecration to that Office. Matrimony to be a common Domestick Sacrament of Marriage Confirmation and Extream Vnction to be abusive imitations of Antient Miraculous Acts And Pennance to be some expressions of Repentance made more necessary than indeed they were and Arbitrarily imposed by mans invention to keep up the Dominion of Ambitious Priests over the Souls of deluded men Tho' at first only introduced by meer Direction of Ministers to men of troubled Conscience shewing what restitution and reparations of the hurt they had done by sin were necessary and what expression of their Repentance was most fit 8. Hereupon the Reformers cast away the Sacraments of Pennance and Extream Vnction and reduced the four first to their Primitive State and Use and the abused way of Confirmation they cast off but some desired to make an advantage of the name for another end and duty of great moment which had been neglected to the great corruption of the Church And the Church of England attempted to do this reserving as much of the Antient Form as possibly they could The Adult were of old Baptized before Infants and never without a most solemn personal Profession of Faith and Repentance and absolute dedication to Christ. And that this might be done with the greatest weight and resolution they were usually taught as Catechumens till they came to understanding and resolution before they were admitted to Baptism Their Infants some brought to Baptism and some delayed till they came to Age all being left at liberty and neither Adult nor Infant driven to Baptism nor accepted till it was desired But as Prelacy grew up to Dominion all were forced to be Baptized in Infancy and at last such growing up in ignorance were all taken for Christians while few knew what Christianity was or what it was to be Baptized or what was there promised on their part or on Christs And when these came to have Children they were Baptized and bred up as their Parents were and Christianty for the most part turned into meer Name and Ceremony the Persons being mostly ignorant of its Essentials This corruption of the Church seemed to many to come only from Infant Baptism whereupon they turned Anabaptists and taught that men should not be Baptized till they seriously and solemnly professed their own Faith and Repentance But wiser men saw that we must not deny Infants their Church state and right because of mens abuse and their neglect of other Duties Baptism is one thing and Personal Confession and Covenanting is another It is the Omission of these at Age that hath corrupted the Church and not Infant Baptism which entreth them but into a Church state suitable to their infancy They need not repeat Baptism which they had but to manifest actual Faith and Repentance which in Infancy they had not That which should be done is to make their Transition into the Communion of Adult Christians to be a serious solemn work and not a delusory Ceremony That those Baptized in Infancy may learn what they did and what Christianity is as to our Faith Duty Hopes And when they come to true resolution to own the Baptismal Vow and as solemnly renew it themselves as others made it for them The English Reformers therefore did retain the Ceremony of Imposition of Hands and the appropriation of it to the Bishop and the name of Confirmation and stretcht the use of the Sign Imposition of Hands to the utmost that they durst but instead of applying it to Infants they made it the owning of the Baptismal Covenant and appointed Catechizing to go before it and call for a solemn performance of it And were it used as a rational sober owning of the Baptismal Covenant indeed in an understanding
during the Iewish Policy command them to use such a Discipline much more in his own Churches L. What are your other Reasons for it M. 2. The very Nature of Christ's Church required it which is a Society separated from the World under special Laws of Holiness and Love and for special heavenly Ends If therefore it shall be confounded with the World and not separated to Christ it is no Church 3. Christ did it for the Honour of himself and his Kingdom If he be no more for Holiness than the Infidel and Heathen World is what is he better than they or how is he a Saviour or what is the Church better than Infidels 4. It is needful to save Heathens from deceit that would come into the Church and to convince them that their impure Communion is insufficient 5. It is needful to save Christians from damning deceit that they may not think that a dead barren unholy Faith and Name of Christianity will save them without a holy obedient Heart and Life 6. It is needful to keep Christ's Ordinances from falsifying Profanation If a sealed Pardon and Gift of Life shall in the Sacraments be given as commonly to Dogs as Children it is a taking God's Name in vain and profane belying Jesus Christ. 7. It is needful to bring Sinners to Repentance that they may be Pardoned and Saved 8. And it is needful to the comforting absolution of Penitents 9. Accordingly God 's Church in all Ages hath owned it as their Law of Christ's institution to this day L. But some learned Men say This was but because there was at first no Christian Magistrate But when there was such the Discipline fell into their hands M. The first Christian Magistrates finding the Church in Possession of it confirmed it and too much accumulated and added to it but took it not away Of this see a small Book which I wrote of the Magistrates Power in Religion to Dr. Lud. Moulin which may end all this dispute Briefly I ask you Qu. 1. Would you have all Infidels and Pagans baptized and Communicate without any Profession of the Christian Religion first L. God forbid That 's a Contradiction M. Shall any words go for a Profession or what must that Profession be L. It must be a Profession of Christian Faith and Obedience M. Who must try and judge of that Profession whether it be Christianity or not Is it Magistrates or Pastors L. Magistrates have somewhat else to do Else they must study and exercise that work alone for they will have no time for Civil Government if they undertake this M. Did not Christ institute an Office for it and give them this Power of the Keyes And if one half that Office cease as soon as Magistrates were Christians why not the other half and so Magistrates must Preach Baptize and celebrate the Sacrament L. It must be no doubt the Ministerial Office to judge who is fit to be in Church Communion Else they were Slaves if they must be forced to take all uncapable Men to their Charge and Communion against their Consciences and Wills No Physician Tutor or School-Master will be forced to take such Patients Pupils or Scholars as will not be ruled by him and will make make him do what they list against his Will. M. You must confess the use of discipline or else openly disown the Word of God the very Being of the Church and the Judgment of the Universal Church to this day And do you think then that to deprive the Church of this is a lawful part of Conformity L. How prove you that the Laity is deprived of it M. 1. In our Great Parishes the People are few of them known to the Priest or to one another Of the two Parishes of my last abode I do not think but there are Fifty Thousand unknown to the Minister and to each other And how can these admonish the Offenders or the Minister exercise this discipline upon unknown Persons 2. The People know that it is in vain to begin where there can be no progress To what purpose is it to tell the Church when it 's sure to do more harm than good 1. The swarm of the Vicious is so great that they cannot be Prosecuted 2. The Minister himself forbeareth it as unpracticable 3. The accused must be Prosecuted at rates which Men cannot bear 4. And before Bishops that cannot possibly do this work to one of a Thousand any more than one School-master can Try and Correct all the faulty Scholars in a Diocess 5. And Men must be Judges that will never call Sinners to Repentance with Ministerial Evidence and Love and Patience but like Secular Courts bid them Recant or be Excommunicate 6. And the Cause must be decided by Lay-men that profanely usurp the Power of the Keys And how is Christ's discipline here possible Polluted common Churches frighten away the Religious conscionable People L. Do you not before complain of too much exercise of Discipline by Excommunications M. Yes of Discipline against Christ It is not enough for your Churches to be common and unclean without true Discipline but when you should drive out the Dogs and Swine you turn out the Children Witness all the fore-mentioned Canons As I said you first force in all the ignorant ungodly multitude that are unfit then these are the strength and major part Then they cannot come under due Discipline then this grieveth Religious People and they find fault with it And then they must be taken for Schismaticks and condemn'd and ruin'd for finding fault In short what need there disputing Is it not notorious matter of fact that this Discipline is not exercised against one Drunkard Swearer Fornicator c. of a multitude and are not Men then deprived of the use of it And when it 's known that they cannot have it in most or many Parishes how are they bound to live and die without the benefit of it L. Do you think Men are bound to separate from all Churches that have not this Discipline Sure it is not Essential to the Church M. I do not think that Preaching as distinct from reading is essential to a Church but that it may be at least for a time a sorry Church without it as those in Moscovy are But I would not continue in such a Church that is without it if I can have a better It 's one thing what a Man should endure that can have no better without more hurt than good and another thing what Men should chuse in obedience to Christ and for their own and the Churches good that can attain it Do you think it is lawful to omit all Duty that is not essential to the Church surely your many humane Offices your Forms and Ceremonies your Declarations and Subscriptions to them are further from being essential than true Discipline is and yet you think that the omission of these is unsufferable Is mans accidental inventions more necessary than Christs Ordinance and Church