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A59095 Table-talk, being discourses of John Seldon, Esq or his sense of various matters of weight and high consequence, relating especially to religion and state. Selden, John, 1584-1654. 1696 (1696) Wing S2438; ESTC R3639 74,052 204

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to be taken off and offer'd any Preferment in the Church that he would make choice of Luther answered if he had offer'd half as much at first he would have accepted it but now he had gone so far he could not come back In Truth he had made himself a greater thing than they could make him the German Princes courted him he was become the Author of a Sect ever after to be call'd Lutherans So have our Preachers done that are against the Bishops they have made themselves greater with the People than they can be made the other way and therefore there is the less Charity probably in bringing them off Charity to Strangers is enjoyn'd in the Text by Strangers is there understood those that are not of our own Kin Strangers to your Blood not those you cannot tell whence they come that is to be charitable to your Neighbours whom you know to be honest poor People Christmass 1. CHristmass succeeds the Saturnalia the same time the same number of Holy-days then the Master waited upon the Servant like the Lord of Misrule 2. Our Meats and our Sports much of them have Relation to Church-works The Coffin of our Christmass-Pies in shape long is in Imitation of the Cratch our chusing Kings and Queens on Twelfth-Night hath reference to the three Kings So likewise our eating of Fritters whipping of Tops roasting of Herrings Jack of Lents c. they were all in Imitation of Church-works Emblems of Martyrdom Our Tansies at Easter have reference to the bitter Herbs tho' at the same time 't was always the Fashion for a Man to have a Gammon of Bacon to shew himself to be no Jew Christians 1. IN the High-Church of Jerusalem the Christians were but another Sect of Jews that did believe the Messias was come To be called was nothing else but to become a Christian to have the Name of a Christian it being their own Language For among the Jews when they made a Doctor of Law 't was said he was called 2. The Turks tell their People of a Heaven where there is sensible Pleasure but of a Hell where they shall suffer they don't know what The Christians quite invert this Order they tell us of a Hell where we shall feel sensible Pain but of a Heaven where we shall enjoy we can't tell what 3. Why did the Heathens object to the Christians that they worship an Asses Head You must know that to a Heathen a Jew and a Christian were all one that they regarded him not so he was not one of them Now that of the Asses Head might proceed from such a Mistake as this by the Jews Law all the Firstlings of Cattle were to be offered to God except a young Ass which was to be redeemed a Heathen being present and seeing young Calves and young Lambs kill'd at their Sacrifices only young Asses redeem'd might very well think they had that silly Beast in some high Estimation and thence might imagine they worshipped it as a God Church 1. HEretofore the Kingdom let the Church alone let them do what they would because they had something else to think of viz. Wars but now in time of Peace we begin to examine all things will have nothing but what we like grow dainty and wanton just as in a Family the Heir uses to go a hunting he never considers how his Meal is drest takes a bit and away but when he stays within then he grows curious he does not like this nor he does not like that he will have his Meat drest his own way or peradventure he will dress it himself 2. It hath ever been the Gain of the Church when the King will let the Church have no Power to cry down the King and cry up the Church But when the Church can make use of the King's Power then to bring all under the King's Prerogative the Catholicks of England go one way and the Court-Clergy another 3. A glorious Church is like a magnificent Feast there is all the Variety that may be but every one chuses out a Dish or two that he likes and lets the rest alone how glorious soever the Church is every one chuses out of it his own Religion by which he governs himself and lets the rest alone 4. The Laws of the Church are most favourable to the Church because they were the Church's own making as the Heralds are the best Gentlemen because they make their own Pedigree 5. There is a Question about that Article concerning the Power of the Church whether these Words of having Power in Controversies of Faith were not stoln in but 't is most certain they were in the Book of Articles that was confirm'd though in some Editions they have been left out But the Article before tells you who the Church is not the Clergy but Coetus sidelium Church of Rome 1. BEfore a Juglar's Tricks are discover'd we admire him and give him Money but afterwards we care not for them so 't was before the Discovery of the Juggling of the Church of Rome 2. Catholicks say we out of our Charity believe they of the Church of Rome may be saved But they do not believe so of us Therefore their Church is better according to our selves First some of them no doubt believe as well of us as we do of them but they must not say so Besides is that an Argument their Church is better than ours because it has less Charity 3. One of the Church of Rome will not come to our Prayers does that agree he doth not like them I would fain see a Catholick leave his Dinner because a Nobleman's Chaplain says Grace nor haply would he leave the Prayers of the Church if going to Church were not made a Mark of Distinction between a Protestant and a Papist Churches 1. THE Way coming into our great Churches was anciently at the West-Door that Men might see the Altar and all the Church before them the other Doors were but Posterns City 1. WHat makes a City Whether a Bishoprick or any of that Nature Answer 'T is according to the first Charter which made them a Corporation If they are incorporated by Name of Civitas they are a City if by the Name of Burgum then they are a Burrough 2. The Lord Mayor of London by their first Charter was to be presented to the King in his Absence to the Lord Chief Justiciary of England afterwards to the Lord Chancellor now to the Barons of the Exchequer but still there was a Reservation that for their Honour they should come once a Year to the King as they do still Clergy 1. THough a Clergy-man have no Faults of his own yet the Faults of the whole Tribe shall be laid upon him so that he shall be sure not to lack 2. The Clergy would have us believe them against our own Reason as the Woman would have had her Husband against his own Eyes What! will you believe your own Eyes before your own sweet
a wise Man that knows the minds and insides of Men which is done by knowing what is habitual to them Proverbs are habitual to a Nation being transmitted from Father to Son Question 1. WHen a doubt is propounded you must learn to distinguish and show wherein a thing holds and wherein it doth not hold Ay or no never answer'd any Question The not distinguishing where things should be distinguish'd and the not confounding where things should be confounded is the cause of all the Mistakes in the World Reason 1. IN giving Reasons Men commonly do with us as the Woman does with her Child when she goes to Market about her Business she tells it she goes to buy it a fine Thing to buy it a Cake or some Plums They give us such Reasons as they think we will be catched withal but never let us know the Truth 2. When the School-Men talk of Recta Ratio in Morals either they understand Reason as it is govern'd by a Command from above or else they say no more than a Woman when she says a thing is so because it is so that is her Reason perswades her 't is so The other Acception has Sense in it As take a Law of the Land I must not depopulate my Reason tells me so Why Because if I do I incurr the detriment 3. The Reason of a Thing is not to be enquired after till you are sure the Thing it self be so We commonly are at What 's the Reason of it before we are sure of the Thing 'T was an excellent Question of my Lady Cotten when Sir Robert Cotten was magnifying of a Shooe which was Moses's or Noah's and wondring at the strange Shape and Fashion of it But Mr. Cotten says she are you sure it is a Shooe Retaliation 1. AN Eye for an Eye and a Tooth for a Tooth That does not mean that if I put out another Man's Eye therefore I must lose one of my own for what is he the better for that tho' this be commonly received but it means I shall give him what Satisfaction an Eye shall be judged to be worth Reverence 1. T IS sometimes unreasonable to look after Respect and Reverence either from a Man 's own Servant or other Inferiours A great Lord and a Gentleman talking together there came a Boy by leading a Calf with both his Hands says the Lord to the Gentleman You shall see me make the Boy let go his Calf with that he came towards him thinking the Boy would have put off his Hat but the Boy took no Notice of him The Lord seeing that Sirrah says he Do you not know me that you use no Reverence Yes says the Boy if your Lordship will hold my Calf I will put off my Hat Non-Residency 1. THE People thought they had a great Victory over the Clergy when in Henry the Eighth's time they got their Bill passed That a Clergy-Man should have but two Livings before a Man might have Twenty or Thirty 't was but getting a Dispensation from the Pope's Limiter or Gatherer of the Peter-Pence which was as easily got as now you may have a Licence to eat Flesh. 2. As soon as a Minister is made he hath Power to preach all over the World but the Civil-Power restrains him he cannot preach in this Parish or in that there is one already appointed Now if the State allows him Two Livings then he hath Two Places where he may Exercise his Function and so has the more Power to do his Office which he might do every where if he were not restrained Religion 1. KIng James said to the Fly Have I Three Kingdoms and thou must needs fly into my Eye Is there not enough to meddle with upon the Stage or in Love or at the Table but Religion 2. Religion amongst Men appears to me like the Learning they got at School Some Men forget all they learned others spend upon the Stock and some improve it So some Men forget all the Religion that was taught them when they were Young others spend upon that Stock and some improve it 3. Religion is like the Fashion one Man wears his Doublet slash'd another lac'd another plain but every Man has a Doublet So every Man has his Religion We differ about Trimming 4. Men say they are of the same Relion for Quietness sake but if the Matter were well examin'd you would scarce find Three any where of the same Religion in all Points 5. Every Religion is a getting Religion for though I my self get nothing I am subordinate to those that do So you may find a Lawyer in the Temple that gets little for the present but he is fitting himself to be in time one of those great Ones that do get 6. Alteration of Religion is dangerous because we know not where it will stay 't is like a Milstone that lies upon the top of a pair of Stairs 't is hard to remove it but if once it be thrust off the first Stair it never stays till it comes to the bottom 7. Question Whether is the Church or the Scripture Judge of Religion Answ. In truth neither but the State I am troubled with a Boil I call a Company of Chirurgeons about me one prescribes one thing another another I single out something I like and ask you that stand by and are no Chirurgeon what you think of it You like it too you and I are Judges of the Plaster and we bid them prepare it and there 's an end Thus 't is in Religion the Protestants say they will be judged by the Scriptures the Papists say so too but that cannot speak A Judge is no Judge except he can both speak and command Execution but the truth is they never intend to agree No doubt the Pope where he is Supream is to be Judg if he say we in England ought to be subject to him then he must draw his Sword and make it good 8. By the Law was the Manual received into the Church before the Reformation not by the Civil Law that had nothing to do in it nor by the Canon Law for that Manual that was here was not in France nor in Spain but by Custom which is the Common Law of England and Custom is but the Elder Brother to a Parliament and so it will fall out to be nothing that the Papists say Ours is a Parliamentary Religion by reason the Service-Book was Established by Act of Parliament and never any Service-Book was so before That will be nothing that the Pope sent the Manual 't was ours because the State received it The State still makes the Religion and receives into it what will best agree with it Why are the Venetians Roman Catholicks because the State likes the Religion All the World knows they care not Three-pence for the Pope The Council of Trent is not at this day admitted in France 9. Papist Where was your Religion before Luther an Hundred years ago Protestant Where was America an
Hundred or Sixscore Years ago our Religion was where the rest of the Christian Church was Papist Our Religion continued ever since the Apostles and therefore 't is better Protestant So did ours That there was an Interruption of it will fall out to be nothing no more than if another Earl should tell me of the Earl of Kent saying He is a better Earl than he because there was one or two of the Family of Kent did not take the Title upon them yet all that while they were really Earls and afterwards a great Prince declar'd them to be Earls of Kent as he that made the other Family an Earl 10. Disputes in Religion will never be ended because there wants a Measure by which the Business would be decided The Puretan would be judged by the Word of God If he would speak clearly he means himself but he is asham'd to say so and he would have me believe him before a whole Church that has read the Word of God as well as he One says one thing and another another and there is I say no Measure to end the Controversie 'T is just as if Two Men were at Bowls and both judg'd by the Eye One says 't is his Cast the other says 't is my Cast● and having no Measure the Difference is Eternal Ben Johnson Satyrically express'd the vain Disputes of Divines by Inigo Lanthorne disputing with his Puppet in a Bartholomew Fair. It is so It is not so It is so It is not so crying thus one to another a quarter of an Hour together 11. In Matters of Religion to be rul'd by one that writes against his Adversary and throws all the Dirt he can in his Face is as if in point of good Manners a Man should be govern'd by one whom he sees at Cuffs with another and thereupon thinks himself bound to give the next Man he meets a Box on the Ear. 12. 'T is to no purpose to labour to reconcile Religions when the Interest of Princes will not suffer it 'T is well if they could be reconciled so far that they should not cut one anothers Throats 13. There 's all the Reason in the World Divines should not be suffer'd to go a Hair beyond their Bounds for fear of breeding Confusion since there now be so many Religions on Foot The Matter was not so narrowly to be look'd after when there was but one Religion in Christendom the rest would cry him down for an Heretick and there was no Body to side with him 14. We look after Religion as the Butcher did after his Knife when he had it in his Mouth 15. Religion is made a Juggler's Paper now 't is a Horse now 't is a Lanthorn now 't is a Boar now 't is a Man To serve Ends Religion is turn'd into all Shapes 16. Pretending Religion and the Law of God is to set all things loose When a Man has no mind to do something he ought to do by his Contract with Man then he gets a Text and interprets it as he pleases and so thinks to get loose 17. Some Mens pretending Religion is like the roaring Boys way of challenges Their Reputation is dear it does not stand with the Honour of a Gentleman when God knows they have neither Honour nor Reputation about them 18. They talk much of settling Religion Religion is well enough settled already if we would let it alone Methinks we might look after c. 19. If Men would say they took Arms for any thing but Religion they might be beaten out of it by Reason out of that they never can for they will not believe you what ever you say 20. The very Arcanum of pretending Religion in all Wars is That something may be found out in which all Men may have Interest In this the Groom has as much Interest as the Lord. Were it for Land one has One Thousand Acres and the other but one he would not venture so far as he that has a Thousand But Religion is equal to both Had all Men Land alike by a Lex Agraria then all Men would say they fought for Land Sabboth 1. WHY should I think all the fourth Commandment belongs to me when all the fifth does not What Land will the Lord give me for honouring my Father It was spoken to the Jews with reference to the Land of Canaan but the meaning is If I honour my Parents God will also bless me We read the Commandments in the Church-Service as we do David's Psalms not that all there concerns us but a great deal of them does Sacrament 1. CHrist suffered Judas to take the Communion Those Ministers that keep their Parishioners from it because they will not do as they will have them revenge rather than reform 2. No Man can tell whether I am fit to receive the Sacrament for though I were fit the Day before when he examined me at least appear'd so to him yet how can he tell what Sin I have committed that Night or the next Morning or what Impious Atheistical Thoughts I may have about me when I am approaching to the very Table Salvation 1. VVE can best understand the meaning of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Salvation from the Jews to whom the Saviour was promised They held that themselves should have the chief Place of Happiness in the other World but the Gentiles that were good Men should likewise have their Portion of Bliss there too Now by Christ the Partition-Wall is broken down and the Gentiles that believe in him are admitted to the same Place of Bliss with the Jews and why then should not that Portion of Happiness still remain to them who do not believe in Christ so they be morally Good This is a charitable Opinion State 1. IN a troubled State save as much for your own as you can A Dog had been at Market to buy a Shoulder of Mutton coming home he met two Dogs by the way that quarrell'd with him he laid down his Shoulder of Mutton and fell to fighting with one of them in the mean time the other Dog fell to eating his Mutton he seeing that left the Dog he was fighting with and fell upon him that was eating then the other Dog fell to eat when he perceiv'd there was no remedy but which of them soever he fought withal his Mutten was in danger he thought he would have as much of it as he could and thereupon gave over fighting and fell to eating himself Superstition 1. THey that are against Superstition oftentimes run into it of the wrong side If I will wear all colours but black then am I superstitious in not wearing black 2. They pretend not to abide the Cross because 't is superstitious for my part I will believe them when I see them throw their Money out of their Pockets and not tell then 3. If there be any Superstition truly and properly so called 't is their observing the Sabbòth after the Jewish Manner Subsidies 1. HEretofore the