hundred yeares haue beene at contention yet doubtles are not agreed about the conception of the Virgin Mary whither it were in sinne or no about diuers sundry other great mysteries of their religion Yea euen in the Sacrament of the body and bloude of Christ wherein they would seeme to be at greatest vnity yet if a man were disposed to note the diuers opinions therein amongst themselues he should scarse euer knowe when to make an ende For there be some of them that holde that there Christs body is torne and chewed with the teeth as it appeareth in the Recantation that they prescribe to Beringarius others as Guymund de Consecra Dist 2. thinke that too grosse Some as Gardener would haue Hoc to signifie indiuiduum vagum a certaine thing that is but they cannot tell what others now would haue it to note that which is vnder the accidentes of bread and wine Scotus and Innocentius the fourth holde consecration to be not by the fiue wordes but by Christs blessing others holde now that it is done by the fiue wordes When it commeth to the eating some holde that it entreth the mouth but no further others wil haue it to passe into the stomacke but not into the guttes others wil haue it to go thither also Infinite are the questions that they are fallen into about this matter And in their last conuenticle at Trident where they had hoped to haue healed all these sores yet euen then there grew a great contention betwixt two great captaynes of theirs Archbishop Catharinus and Frier Soto and that about no small matters namely about assured confidence of the fauour of God Predestination originall sinne free-will and such like matters Insomuch that for all the councell could doe for six yeares together they continuallie went on in writing bookes bitterly one against another The same Catharin also wrote a booke against Caietan a Cardinall laying therein to his charge 200. errours CoÌ„tention also the same Catharin had with FraÌ„ciscus Torrensis a man otherwise of his owne faction about single life of priests residence of Bishops both which the one helde was as hee taught therein warranted by Gods worde the other stoutly holding the contrary In the Articles of iustification free grace and originall sinne Ruard Tapper a great Papist and Deane of Colen in his second tome wrote against Piggius an Archpiller of that Synagogue contending to proue that he was deceiued and erred in those pointes But what should I take vpon me to reckon vp the contentions and controuersies that are amongst them For certaine it is they are so many and infinite that a man if he were disposed might write a booke of a whole quire of paper consisting onely of a bare recitall of the differences of opinions that their writers haue set downe in their owne bookes about points and questions of religion And yet see as though there neuer had beene iarre amongst them they brag of vnity amongst the simple and labour our disgrace with the obiection of variety of opinions amongst vs especially about this one point of the maner of Christs reall presence in the sacrament But seeing now hereby in parte you see at what agreement they are I hope you thinke it reason that they should agree better amongest themselues before they insult any more against vs for our disagreement Lastly they doe vs wrong in seeking to disgrace vs and our religion in that since Luther beganne to preach there haue risen vp diuerse and sundrie fonde and foolish heretiques For wee read that immediatly after the Apostles tymes euen within few yeares Epiphanius by his tyme could reckon vp eighty and Augustine more seuerall errours and heresies which in effect did growe togither with the Gospell and yet the Gospell not to be blamed therefore but Sathan who where the good seedes-man sowed good seede vseth to sowe also his tares Matthew the thirteenth And yet it seemeth by Saint Iohns preuention of this obiection that some aswell affected to the Gospell then belike as you be now were ready hereby to discredit both the Apostles and their doctrine But Iohns answere is they went out from vs but they were not of vs for if they had beene of vs they would haue continued vvith vs. But this came to passe that it might appeare that they were not all of vs 1. Iohn 3. Euen so wee answere you concerning those that you say haue any where since Luther risen amongst vs and fallen into heresies Yet further so much the more apparent is the wronge that you offer vs in this behalfe in that not onely you knowe we shun communion with them as wel as you but that also it euidently hath appeared to the world that wee haue beene both the first and the forwardest in detecting of them and in confuting of them from time to time Wherfore I conclude that hitherto you haue saied nothing of any force for the iustification either of your vocation Church or religion The V. Chapter THe like vnto this is confirmed by Vincensius Lyrinensis of whom we haue spoken before for he saith in the booke aboue named that that person ought to be esteemed a true Catholicke a This rule is sound and good but it quite ouerthroweth popery because it cannot be proued to be this ancient Catholique faith For â—he contrary is certaine both by scripture and all sound antiquity that hath nothing in greater coÌ„meÌ„dation then the true religion of the Catholick faith yea although it were the wisest man in the world and the greatest Philosopher and the fairest speaker that euer was if he came to speake against the old doctrine that hath beene taught vs of our forefathers time out of mind we ought saieth he to disdaine that learned Clarke with al his philosophy cuÌ„ning to holde our selues to the ancieÌ„t opinion of the church the which hath continued vntill this present day b But such as all popery and no part of our religion And if that nowe one should bring a new doctrine that was not heard of before contrary vnto that that hath euer bene taught in the Church say that it doeth not appertaine vnto the state of the Catholicke faith that it is no religioÌ„ but a temptation And therefore if we wil be saued we ought to liue and die in that faith that hath continued by succession of Pastours euen froÌ„ Christs time vnto these daies S. Irenaeus a very famous writer Lib. 4. contr haer cap. 65. in his fourth book against heresies the 65. Chapter who was within a few yeares of the Apostles Archbishop of Lions writeth the very like c Proue your religion now to bee the same that was in Irenaeus time and then you say something his testimony make for you otherwise not and this is impossible saying that the true faith the true knowledge of God is the doctrine of the Apostles the ancient estate of the Church throughout the world
and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in
ministers of our Church and Religion and no maruell that they that are not light headed send vs to preach in new found landes c. This in effect you haue often saied and if that will serue you will not sticke with vs to say it in euerie Chapter But this being indeede the question whereupon the determinatioÌ„ of the whole controuersie betwixt you and vs dependeth namely whither our Religion bee not the true ancient Religion taught by Christ and his Apostles for you to passe it ouer thus with bare words and neuer to go about soundly to proue that it is not is but too too childish and ridiculous Well may you in your owne conceite and in the opinion of the simple silly reader seeme herein to haue done a great act but in the iudgement of any of meane witte capacity howsoeuer you may bee counted a wordy man yet you shall neuer be accounted a worthie champion to fight in this greatest question onely with bare wordes The XV. Chapter YOV will saie to me that this argument ought to take place in an ordinarie commission but a Though in such times estates of the Church wherein Luther and some others liued there were iust occasion why God should stirre vp men extraordinarily to serue him yet you know well enough that both he and others whose calling you most cal in question were not without an ordinary outwarde calling of men yours is extraordinary as that was of the Prophets of the olde Testament whom God did sende to correct the Scribes and Pharises and that euen so God hath inspired you and others of your sect to the like effect that is to say to correct the superstitious liues and doctrine of the Papists Idolaters and by this as farre as I can see ye are coÌ„missaries of God in his behalfe yee maie saie wel with S. Paul although yee haue not bene rauished vnto the third heauen * Gal. 1. that ye are not sent by man or of man but by the authoritie of our Sauiour Christ But what would you saie if we should speake against it as a number doe and that to reuenge this quarell we should write against your commission we might well aide our selues with a Sillogisme of our Sauiour Christ if we would come to pleade the matter which is this c* This argument the contrariety betwixt your religioÌ„ Christs being as it is proues neither your Church nor Priests to be of God He that is of God doeth obey *b Joh. 6. b Iohn the eight you would haue saied the word of God but you doe not obey the word of God therefore yee are not of God I knowe that you will denie the Minor and therefore it doeth appertaine to vs to proue it Christ doeth saie * Mat. 22. a In this particuler respect witnes your Popes vsurping ouer Christian Princes none were euer more â—uilâ—y in denying to Cesar that which is Cesars then you Giue vnto Cesar that that appertaineth to Cesar and to God that that appertaineth to God That is to saie to speake familierlie giue Geneua vnto his Lord and the Bishopricke vnto his Bishop Now you doe not obeie this commandement therefore as one that doeth not appertaine vnto God you haue prouided your selfe a new master And because we would not haue some to thinke that we that are not of the cuntrie doe beare false witnes against you or that we doe it without hauing anie interest vnto the matter b Nay the euidence of the matter sheweth that your owne sauage dealings contrary to the publicke edicts of that cuntrey hath caused the stâ—rs there and now of late you haue reuiued them by open treason and rebellion I am sure that all the world doeth know that yee haue set all France in as ill an estate as ye haue done the Dukedome of Sauoy In that that appertaineth to the Church is there anie Bishoprick or Dioces left where ye haue not sought with al your power to preach your holie doctrine where haue ye forgotten that that Saint Paul doth saie which is * Rom. 10. how shal they preach if they are not sent What right haue you to come to reape other mens corne Doe not you remember that that Tertullian doeth write against your elders that did persecute the catholique Church against whom he saieth in his c This TertulliaÌ„ would surely haue saied of you â— he had liued in these daies booke de praescriptione haereticorum What are yee and from whence doe yee come By what right O Marcian doest thou cut downe my woode Why doest thou O Appelles remoue my landes And a little after he sayeth the place is mine I haue beene thus long time in possession and before thee I haue good title and euidence to maintaine my right of those to whom it did appertaine which left it me by inheritaÌ„ce from the Apostles c. Our church of France which is one of the principal members of all the Catholique Church might with good cause saie vnto you the like And I praie what would you answere You cannot denie but that d If this were true as it is false that your religioÌ„ were a thousand yeares olde yet being no elder it is too young by fiue hundreth yeares at the least to be the true religion aboue a thousand yeares before ye were borne that the faith in which yee were baptized and the which you haue falselie denied was planted I doe not saie in this onelie kingdome of France but ouer all Christendome If you pretende any right to the contrarie shew the reason of your possession by the euidence of the e This we can haue often done already ancient doctours and after come to demande it as I haue saied before I meane that you should yeelde the ecclesiasticall gouernment which you haue vsurped in manie places with too great libertie of conscience and licence to doe euill which is the verie death of the soule f S. Augustines words are these quae est pejor mors anima quam libertas erroâ—is as Saint Austine doeth saie Epist 166. And after that yee haue restored France to his olde estate then there will be more apparence of the matter that ye are sent to preach the true word of God then there is now But is this estate that yee are although that God had giuen you commission the which he neuer thought he would haue called it backe because of your noble actes Theodosius and g Areadius I think you ment Arcades which in olde time were Emperours of Rome L. si quis in tantam cod vnde vi did establish or make al Edict that if the true owner or lord of a thing should vse anie force or to seeke by the waie of violence without staying for the senteÌ„ce of the Iudge h Euen thus you and your predecessours got possession of your places therefore by this law you haue but right
our ReligioÌ„ to be the true ancient Catholicke faith taught by the Apostles and euer since continued in Christes true Church namely first for that by the Canonicall scriptures we can proue it to be the same that they preached seeing it caÌ„not be denied but their preaching and writing agreed and secondly because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient groundes of the Catechisme the ten coÌ„mandemeÌ„ts the articles of the faith the Lords praier c. And for these causes indeede we most confidently say and aduouch that you doe vs extreame wrong the trueth soundnes of these two reasons notwithstanding either to call our Church or ReligioÌ„ new or thus to call for miracles to confirme it now as though it had neuer beene confirmed thereby before But in all this with you we say nothing to the purpose yet with the indifferent Reader I hope it is to good and great purpose seeing hereby we labour to proue that our church and Religion is not new and but of 40. yeares continuance as here most vntruly you charge it but olde ancient because it agreeth in euery point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechisme All you say to confute this argument of ours is that we haue learned our Catechisme of you otherwise we should not or could not haue come by it Whereunto I answere that if wee had had no better Catechisers then you we had yet beene but badly Catechised and this further you may be sure of your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so crackt with vs if we had not found these parts of the Catechisme either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed and grounded in the Canonicall scriptures vpon your credit we had not receiued them besides as I haue plentifully shewed in the 4. Chapter we haue had in all ages from Christ downe to our owne very manie of our owne Religion that haue continued and from hand to hand deliuered vnto vs these partes of the Catechisme more soundly and faithfully then you haue done so that if you had neuer beene we should farre better and sooner haue learned these things But in the most wise prouidence of God these were in some sort also continued amongst you that so you might be the more without excuse in that notwithstanding the light that migh haue shined vnto you thereby you yet chused rather to walke in grosse and palpable darknesse then in the light thereof And therefore sathan the Prince of darknesse in your Synagogues through the helpe of his vicar generall your Pope and his Chaplaines neuer ceased vntill by one blinde and hellish perswasion or other whatsoeuer Paul had taught to the contrarie 1 Corint 14. he brought to passe not onely that all your Lyturgie and seruice should bee in Latin and rather lying legends permitted to be read in the Churches publickly in the mother tongue then the Scriptures of God but also that these portions of the Catechisme should either not bee learned at all or else onely in the Latin and vnknowen tongue which he knew was all one in effect Otherwise then thus by your good wils how little soeuer we had vnderstoode the latin tongue wee should not nor could not bee suffered to learne them and therefore this learning being altogether wtout edification neither is there any cause why you should brag that we haue learned our Catechismes of you nor why we should accouÌ„t our selues any thing in your debte for the same Further to make it yet more appeare how little beholden we are to you for teaching vs the Catechisme let vs but a little consider euen your most diligent Catechising of men in these three partes thereof here named by you the ten commandements the creede and the Lordes prayer First concerning the ten commandements in steede of one God which there we are commanded to haue you in teaching vs to worshippe Saints Angels your breaden God and your Pope as you doe haue taught vs to worship so many more Gods then one and secondly that your images and idols might staÌ„d to the enritching of your cleargy with the idolatrous offrings vnto theÌ„ it was and is a common trick with you in setting down the commandements in your Catechismes and elsewhere to leaue the second commandement quite out which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them and yet least you should of euery one be spied in finding them but 9. you deuide the tenth into two And as for the other 2. coÌ„mandements of the first table by your ordinary most coÌ„mon practise the people were taught whatsoeuer is there to the coÌ„trary that it very well becommeth them of your schoole vsually to sweare by a number of things that are no Gods and to season all their common talke with oathes of all sortes and to turne the day which should bee kept holy to the Lorde to a daie of the greatest vanitie and impiety of al the daies of the weeke And to proceede to the second table neuer did the Iewes more make the 5. commandement of none effect for loue of their Corban then you haue done to maintaine your infinit orders of monks friers nuns in all contempt and neglect of duety to their pareÌ„ts if once you could entise them into those cloisters How pretious soeuer bloud be yet so small a matter hath it bene with you that your Synagogue is drunke with the bloud of Gods saints and euery varlet is not only easily dispensed withall with you but also often much commended if hee can though neuer so traiterously embrue his haÌ„ds for the furtherance of your kingdome in the bloud of subiect or Prince brother or of whoÌ„ soeuer else And as for adulterie or fornication yea for sinnes against nature not to be named your great Catechisers neuer haue seemed to make reckoning of in that notwithstanding they know that these haue followed in such infinite measure vpon their inforced single life in euerie corner that the stench thereof hath long ago reached vp vnto heauen to pul downe Gods fearce vengeance against you yet rather then they would let go this tricke of hypocrisie they are contented that this â—ench increase stil Your infinite and open sacriledges in building founding your cloisters and Prelacies in spâ—â—â—ing the seuerall parishes of their ordinarie maintenance for their ministers other your innumerable vnsatiable pillings polings of Gods Church your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you couÌ„t heretiques and your ordinary doctrine that bare concupiscence â—s no sinne shew what Catechisers you are for the rest And whereas in the creede we be taught indeede to beleeue onely in the Trinitie in that you vsually teach vs to trust yea in the matter of saluation to a number of things besides and to praie vnto saints and Angels it being plainly taught vs in the word that beside God there is not sauiour Esa 43. and that Christs name is the onely name of
that it is possible that such filthy heretiques as Seruetus was may shewe themselues stout in dying But what is all this to proue that our martyrs haue broken the vnion of the Catholique Church or that they died as heretiques for heresie Before you can say any thing to the purpose either to proue them no true martyrs or to blemish their patience you should haue proued that their cause and religion for which they died was not the sound Christian trueth and faith but that you wil neuer bee able to doe And therefore both al this and what els you haue noted though falsely for there is no such thing in either of these two places out of Augustine contra Epistolam Petiliani of the Donatistes forwardnesse to die and out of Cyprians first booke of Epistles falleth downe to the ground as needles besides the questiō For whatsoeuer they there spake they spake it of heretickes therfore it hath no force against vs vntil you can proue vs so in alleadging Cypriās testimony by the way of parēthesis you say we know of what Church hee spake when hee sayed the heretiques that hee wrote of could not bee saued because they separated themselues from the Church the house of peace Indeed wee knowe that hee ment not your Church which is a bloudie house a house of warre cōtentiō a house of error superstitiō but the Church of Christ that was in his time to with yours is not so like as a drunken man is to a sober discreet man or a whore vnto an honest matrone for there is likelihood in substāce though not in quality yours is vnlike to the Church then in both Zischa you cal a martial minister of the Heborites or Hussites you would say or at least I am sure you should say a noble martiall Captaine for minister he was none of them whom their malitious enimies nickenamed Thaborites or Hussites for so they were called not as you call them At your pleasure you call Michael Seruet Caluins dearling but you cānot proue that he was euer in any such accoūt with Caluin why you should tearme him so But yet if he had beene so thorow his cunning in dissembling his heresie for a time the more commendation was it to Caluin that when he proued an obstinate heretique hee was so earnest and zealous in the cause of his God that all former affection set a part he furthered his due punishment as he did And for al your speech of his willingnes to die at Geneua and great patience in dying I cannot read but that he shunned death there as much as he could keeping or holding still his heresie and that thousands haue died on the gallowes for murder felonie and treason with as great shew of courage and patience as he But to let these things passe and to returne againe to your principall drifte in this which was as you shewe in the beginning of it to proue that neither our vocation nor religion could get any credit by the inuincible patience of our holy martyrs what hath bene saied as yet to proue this Your onely argument hitherto hath beene this The cause that a man dyeth for must bee good and hee must bee no heretique many heretiques haue dyed with great shew of patience Ergo c. This argument is starke naught for al these things in your antecedent may be graunted and yet of al them togither your conclusion followeth not These thinges which are not at al in question you haue proued but this that indeed should haue giuē life to your argument that ours died in and for an ill cause were heretiques which is indeede the thing onely in question like a wise man because you could not proue it you let alone But therfore you shall be contented for al your miserable crauing of it to bee granted you to be denied both it and your conclusion which without it you can neuer come vnto You will therefore proue as you make your reader beleeue that our Martyrs were such as died in an ill cause as heretiques and therefore went to hel But what be your proofes Ioachim Westphalus a Lutheran in a worke of his but it seemeth either you could not or would not tel vs in what worke for some politique reason you had doubtles mocked at Caluin for vaūting but where he made this vaunt or where we may finde it you tel vs not that within fiue yeares aboue an hundred had died for the religion of Geneua prouing vnto him that seeing there had beene far moe of the Anabaptistes put to death in lesse space and that the Deuill had his Martyrs his religion was no whit confirmed or countenanced by his Martyrs but they might for all his bragge be in the vauntgard of the Deuils martyrs What a miserable argument is this A contentious man in the heat of his contention saied thus to disgrace his aduersary and his side therefore therupon it shall follow that it was well and truely saied of him I thinke you will grāt me that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were good men both yet in heat of contention one against another Epiphanius burst out into such choler as he saied that he hoped the other should neuer die bishop to whō Chrysostōe answered as angerly again that he trusted the other should neuer returne aliue into his own cuntrey of Cypres infinite be the examples whereby we may see that men otherwise haue in heate of contention marueylously ouershot themselues one against another And therefore God forbid that vpon euery speach of disgrace vttered in such a case by one against another should by and by a firme argument be gathered that it is euen so as the one hath saied of the other But you will say you stād not so much vpō his speach against Caluins Martyrs as vpō that that there were mo of the Anabaptists that had died in a shorter space then he talked of and that otherwise the deuil hath had his martyrs which we cānot deny Hereupon indeed it followeth that an argument drawen to iustifie an opinion and the followers of it from the bare death and shew of patience of them that hold it is not good but so did neuer any of vs reason For first we labour to proue the cause good and that done then in the patience of such as haue died in so good cause togither with the cause we take comfort And yet in trueth we are sure we may speak it to the glory of God there were neuer either so many or any that so patiently died for any other opinion or opinions whatsoeuer as first and last died for the testimony of our religion For we account all them ours that haue from the beginning died for the glorious cause of the Gospell of Iesus Christ and in that we are able by the Scriptures to proue our religion to be the same we are sure we are not deceiued in our account In the conclusion of this Chapter to
hauing the grace that was inspired in him by the holie ghost at his baptisme so long he doeth not sinne vnto eternall death d Yea the Apostle to the great comfort of them that are once truely regenerat teacheth in these places that such by the power of that grace shall be so preserued that they shall neuer sin as the vnregeneraâ— do with their whole man vnto death for the generatioÌ„ of God that is to saie the grace receiued by this holy sacrament doeth so defend him that the Deuill cannot persecute him to death being not able to preuaile against him and as long as this good seede which is the word of God doeth dwell in him he cannot sinne and if he did sinne the seed would no loÌ„ger remain in him The holie ghost saith * Sap. 1. the wisemaÌ„ shall refuse the hypocrite and dissembler and shall depart from the vaine and crafty cogitations and therefore the grace of God and sinne can not dwell togither nor we ought not thinke S. Iohns wordes strange in that he saieth that he that is borne of God doeth not sinne for it is as much to say as that one can not serue two masters and that he that serueth God can not serue the Deuill For. S. Paul saieth * 1. Cor. 10. You cannot assist at the table of God and of the Deuill altogether for what communication is there betweene iustice and iniquity or betweene Iesus Christ and Belial And hee that doeth loue this world declareth himselfe an enemie vnto God And a little before he had saied he that doeth commit sinne is the sonne of the Deuill the which doeth not affirme that a sinner cannot be the sonne of God if he repent and doe penance but in the meane while a If this assertion be true â—â—en as often as the regenerate either actually sinneth or hath but a minde to sinne he is not the childe of God I would gladly know theÌ„ h w often the authour hath coÌ„tinued a moreâ—h the child of God togither or any man else he that is in actuall sinne or hath a minde to doe euill is as then not the sonne of God but the sonne of the Deuill The good tree doeth not beare ill fruite for although the fruit doe rot or perish vpon the tree that corruption doeth not proceede of the tree but of the wormes birdes or of some other kinde of vermine and therefore when they say that by the fruit we shall knowe the tree and by the workes the faith this ought to be vnderstood when the fruite doeth ripe in season and that it hath the naturall humour and property of the tree And in a man that he haue the influeÌ„ce of the true faith not otherwise for euen as the rotten fruit hanging vpon the tree doeth digresse nothing from the good stocke euen so the ill workes of vs that are Christians ought not to staine our holy and Catholique religion b Thus we also answere the obiection that you make against our religion froÌ„ the lewd liues that you see in some which seeme to be of our profession It is a good defence for you you thinke why should you not graunt â— then so to be to vs For the corruption of our ill fruites coÌ„meth of our selues and not of our religion the which doeth defende vs from doing that we doe I meane to sweare to blaspheme to commit adulterie to doe anie man wrong or to offend God anie waie He that doeth desire then by the fruit to know whither the tree of our Religion bee good hee ought not to bende his eies to looke vpon the rotten fruit as if that were sufficient to disproue the goodnesse of the tree but let him looke vpon the good fruites c You shall finde that you farre oueâ—shot your se fe in your reckoning when you compare indeed their religion exp essed in their writiâ—gs with yours such are all the Doctours aswell of the Greeke as Latin church so manie good Emperours and vertuous Kinges Princes Dukes and Earles which haue raigned in France Spaine Germany and England and ouer all the worlde and haue died in the faith leauing their workes to beare witnes of their good fruites d Many Kings Quâ—enes Nobles and others of our religion haue done these things also The which haue builded so manie faire hospitals to helpe releeue the poore so many goodly Colledges to entertaine fatherles children at their bookes so manie foundations and workes for the common wealth and that haue builded so manie sumptuous e The first pulling of them dowâ—e here in England came euen from your Cardinals and great bishops vnder the pretence therwith to found colledges and so hauing giuen the king an example wheâ— he was disposed to follow it they easily consented indeed the abhominaâ—ions therin committed was their ouerthrow Abbeies and houses of Religion the which you with your godlie zeale haue not onely robbed and spoiled but that that is more odious you haue pulled them cleane downe to deface the memorie of our ancesters to acquite all these which are notable monuments you brag of the good deedes that your good Christians doe which are much like vnto the gaines of those that vse to cog at dise for although they win much it is neuer seene or like the Iewes which to colour their horrible crueltie in putting our sauiour vniustly to death they weÌ„t bought with the monie that they gaue to Iudas a field to bury the dead k As deepe and grounded papists were lickorish of Abbey lands as any other and as greedily and securely they enioy them still amongst vs. Cardinall Woolsey and the Bishop of Rochester your great Martyr first began that course here And so you hauing robbed spoiled froÌ„ the religious houses and Abbeies more then you are able to restore you thinke to acquite it al with giuing a little to the poore No no these deuises are but vaine if by the fruit the tree be knowen as Christ saieth let them that haue anie iudgement looke vpon the fruit of our trees then iudge whither they be good or no. The XXXIIII Chapter PArtly in the former Chapter but more plainly in this you shew that you vnderstand by the trees that Christ spake of good Religion and bad But if you view the place you will at least I am sure you should rather thereby vnderstaÌ„d the persons of men effectually called as I haue saied or not called at all or at least yet vneffectually called that sound religion is one of the principall fruits that he meant should grow vpoÌ„ the former to discerne him from the later For his scope was not there to teach vs how to discerne religions but how to discerne the children of God from the children of sathan And thus it will proue that the sence of this prouerbe will not proue hard at all to vs to digest but to you who what shew soeuer you caÌ„ make with
to escape this 1000. more such contrarieties betwixt your doctrin and the reueiled wil of God in the scriptures but by subtle sophistrie fonde quiddities and distinctions deuised of your owne heades without all warrant and ground frō thēce which in matters and questions of diuinity is intollerable These and such like contrarieties betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Prelates and the trueth taught in the scriptures we hauing oft obserued and tolde them of and yet finding them most obstinatly to persist in the same hath caused vs rather in respect of their hereticall doctrine to call them wolues thē in respect of their negligence onely heretiques And for this same cause seeing all yours are thus infected you wish vs in vaine to ioyne some of the best of them with some of the best of ours to reforme things amisse in both For there is no hope of any good reformation at all where any such as yours haue any thing to doe therein And seeing it is and hath beene so cōmon a thing with vs as you cannot be ignorant if you haue reade anie of our bookes writen against you to denie that you continue in the doctrine which was preached vnto you at the first yea seeing you all know that we count your synagogue Antichristian for her manifold Apostasies from the ancient doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught first vnto the Romans I wonder with what face or forehead you could write as you do in the cōclusion of this Chapter that we our selues cannot denie if we will confesse the trueth but that you haue continued in the doctrine that was first preached vnto you And therefore not onely for your lewdnes of life and negligent sheepherds bad sheepe doeth your kingdome decay as you would insinuate but especially for this also that in the points we striue with you about you are quite gone from the ancient sound Catholique faith and religion first taught by Christ and his Apostles and receiued and continued many yeares in the ancient Roman church others The only way therefore for you is to preuēt an vtter vniuersall subuersion and confusion first to returne againe from your new Antichristian Religiō doctrine to the true ancient Catholique faith taught in the scriptures and thē to amend your maners according to the direction of the same The XXXVII Chapter ALL our ancient doctours a This is but an arrogant false brag as we are able to proue come to particulars when you will as well of the Greeke as of the Latine church since the Apostles time and the Christians of all the foure quarters of the world which were in those daies b Christians haue alwaies vowed and promised lawful thinges onely to God they haue had a care to make those vowes and promises discreetly of such things as they saw he had made possible vnto thē which things are neglected in the vowes that I feare you most mean haue made their promises and vowes vnto God euen as we doe now and at their baptisme they did vse euen those verie ceremonies that we doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings that we doe vse in our Catholique church which you call Papisticall and to proue this true we will bring the saied ancient doctours as witnesses if it please you to reade the c Neuer man had worse hap in quoting so few places as is euident in the answer to this Chapter places that we will quote Tertullian who liued verie neere the Apostles time doeth make mention in his booke that he intituled De resurrectione carnis of the annointing vsed at the Baptisme and of the renouncing the Deuill all his pompe In his booke de coronâ militis he doeth speake of the third dipping vnder the water in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost S. Cyprian the Martyr who was aboue 1300. yeares agone doeth write in the second volume of his Epistles Epist 12. how they did vse in his time to giue the holy Chrisme vnto the children that were baptised Origen in his twelfth Homilie and in diuerse other places of his workes doeth make mention of the renouncing of the Deuill at ones baptisme of the making of the signe of the crosse vpon childrens faces when they were christened S. Iohn Chrysostome in his 12. Homilie vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. And in his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians he doeth make mention of the saied renunciation made from the Deuill and all his workes Reade I praie if it be your pleasure S. Aug. in Psal 31. Aug. li 15. contra Iulia. Pelag. li. 1. ca. 2. Item de nuptiis cōcupiscentia lib. 1. cap. 20. in Ioannem tract 33. in Canonicam Ioannis tract 3. tractat 6. Et de eccle dogmat cap. 31. De Simbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. lib. 2. cap. 11. Et libro de his qui initiantur sacris Cap. 1. Basilius de Spiritu Sancto cap. 15. 27. Arnobius in Psalm 75. All these doctours which were aboue a thousand yeares agone if you reade in them the places that heere I haue quoted you shall finde that they did vse at the Baptisme of their children those verie ceremonies that wee doe now vse and that you doe so mislike And as for confession before the receiuing of the Sacrament our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the Ecclesiasticall ministers haue authoritie to binde and forgiue sinnes Saint Cyprian in his fifth Sermon de lapsis Origen vpon the thirtie and seuenth Psalm and in Leuit. Hom. 2. Saint Augustine libro 2. de visitatione infirmorum Cap. 4. Saint Cyril libro 12. in Iohannem Cap. 56. Saint Hierom in Ecclesiast Cap. 10. All these doctours according to the Scriptures in these places doe confirme auriculer confession And as for praying vnto the Saintes in Paradise to helpe vs vvith their praiers read Origen in his third Homilie vpō the Cāticles and in his 2. book vpō Iob his eight book in Eccl. Reade Chrysostom in his eight Homilie vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians the fourth Chapter and S. Augustine in his twentie booke against Faustus the one and twenty Chapter and Saint Hierom against Vigilantius All these make mention of the praying vnto the Saintes And for praying for the dead reade Tertullian in his booke De Monogonia and in his booke De corona militis and Saint Cyprian ad plebem Furnensem and in the first booke of his Epistles and Origen in Hieremiam Homil. 12. Item in Epist ad Rom. libro 8. cap. 11. Reade Chrysostome in his thirde Homilie vpon the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Philippians and S. Augustine lib. 2. de gen against the Manichees cap. 20. in the Encheridion ad Laurent cap. 110. Item libro de cura pro mortuis agenda All these doctours whose workes haue continued these 1200. yeares doe teach vs all these thinges that now we doe obserue the which
wee onely are saued or they al condemned For I haue shewed how a nuÌ„ber yea infinite numbers of them might be saued this notwithstanding As for your iudgement that they neuer erred so much as our disciples it is not material For you are no competent iudge in this matter And the reason of your iudgement that we condemne the faith that the Catholique Church hath held this 1500. yeares and maintaine the olde rotten condemned heresies is a thing which by begging after this sort at our hands though therein you be neuer so impudent and shamelesse a begger as that way in this your book your greatest skill hath appeared you shall neuer get And therefore set your hearts at rest your words though they be neuer so lowde stout shall neuer make vs yeelde you this for an almes You must therefore proue your words true and so make vnto vs euident demonstration thereof which you shall neuer be able to doe before we may yeeld vnto you that you haue any right at all to this The XXXIX Chapter IF that by a good and a right title your disciples cal themselues the children of God this maketh me beleeue that the saying of our Sauiour is fulfilled in them the which is * Luc. 16. The childreÌ„ of this world are wiser in their generation then the children of light To proue this true wee see this dailie experience for a wise worldly man when he doeth put out his money to gaine he vvill not trust the promise so soone of one or two or three as hee vvill doe the bondes of a vvhole Towne or Cittie that should warrant or assure his gaine But you nor your disciples haue not done thus but rather the contrarie It had beene better for you to haue first put your faith and trust in God beleeuing that he hath giuen his holie spirit and declared the meaning as touching the Scriptures vnto the Catholique Church a We build not our faith religion or hope of saluatioÌ„ of these meÌ„s credits but vpoÌ„ the credit of the vndoubted worde of God set down in the scriptures which is for credit to be preferred before the credit of all men speaking beside or contrary vnto them and not to hazard the hope of your saluation putting it into the hands of Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius and three or foure other such pelting merchantes vvhich haue newlie set vp shoppes at Wittemberge Geneua Losane vvhich one of these daies we shal see bankeroutes as their predecessours haue beene before them the vvhich after that they had deceiued the poore simple Catholiques b Beware of dogs Phil. 3. ergo take heed of this Romish barker the best is hee is but one that barketh to bite hurt he hath small or no power and gained some of their soules for the deuill they haue at the last sold al their honestie and credit so that at this daie except that it be those that reade the ancient histories no bodie else doeth remember that euer they liued in the world You are come now last of all to make vp their merchandise but your credit can hardlie be good before God c Will you neuer haue done with this bare vaine brag Shew this but once to bee true and then we yeelde and then brag and spare not for you shall haue against you all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day all the Doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires Kingdomes and priuate state thoroughout al the worlde which haue receiued and honoured this doctrine that you call Papisticall And if you saie that you will not trust meÌ„ but the verie word of the Lord we agree to the like that we ought al to beleeue the Scripture but we varie about the interpretation for you interpret it after one sort and we after another you expound it after a new sort and the Catholicke Church doeth follovv d When it commeth to the trial it will be found that our interpretation rather then yours hath continuance froÌ„ all the sound ancient Doctours and the vndoubted Apostolicall â—raditions the olde exposition of the ancient Doctours traditions which you haue forsaken or to saie the trueth your Ministers haue led the sheepe astraie froÌ„ the old flocke at the departing froÌ„ the which they haue beene al scattered abroad some following Luther some Caluin some the Anabaptists so forth for the which the Popes kings others that haue had the gouernment of the Church shall answere at the last daie of iudgement for as much as while e Ergo you haue had sleepy Popes they slept you haue come sowedweeds among the good corne Then seeing you are the sheepe that rome astraie what excuse can they make before God that wilfully follow your steps We confesse that we are the poore sheepe of God that haue continued with our old flocke stedfast whole as touching our religion but very weake and sickely f Amend them for shame as touching our maners that is to say g But your wounds sores sicknes is grown so desperat that you will account none such but them that wil tel you you are sound and in health where you are most sicke full of sins vices attending some sage phisitions to heale vs good pastors to keepe vs casting out the chaffe froÌ„ the corne I meane cutting off those abuses that are offensiue not to such scrupulous consciences as you haue but vnto him that doeth threaten theÌ„ for the carelesse liues of their sheepe so to continue in that h Proue this once some of you or else for shame neuer say it almost in euery leafe for lack of matter as you doe ancient faith that by succession of pastours we haue receiued from the Apostles The XXXIX Chapter In this Chapter there is nothing but your old great words stout begging the maine questioÌ„ that your Church is the true ancient Catholicke Church that al the ChristiaÌ„s great small since Christ haue bene flat on your side that you are the only men that follow the sound sence of the scriptures deliuered vnto you by the ancient doctors and true pastors of the Church that we are but two or three in coÌ„parison of you sprung vp yesterday such as you prophesie wil shortly grow banckerout both of credit and honesty This bladder ful of nothing but winde is sufficiently I hope prickt and let out already by that which I haue saied in sundry places before Howsoeuer I hope the reader is not so simple as that seeing in you neuer so great store of these swelling wordes as long as he knoweth your aduersaries denie them as stoutly of the other side and he seeth you bring nothing but bare wordes without proofe he wil any whit be mooued therewith And yet as not able a discourse as this booke of yours is accounted the greatest stuffing that it hath is onelie
not amisse vnto my former answer to Iohn de Albine to annex this short answer thereunto His first signe of such as hee speaketh of hee saieth is their departure from the cōmon knowen catholick Church of Christ wherin they were baptized first receaued christiā faith and religiō and this to be such a signe he proueth out of the second chapter of S. Iohns first Epistle where he speaking of such saieth they departed frō vs but they were not of vs for if they had they would stil haue cōtinued with vs. Wherupon he thinketh that forasmuch as hee saieth wee cannot deny but that wee are the men that haue thus departed from their common knowen catholicke Church faith and religion wherein we were first baptized and that wee cannot say that they haue so departed from vs they still remaining in the same church faith and Religion that they first receaued that of necessity we must be enforced to graunt that this signe agreeth to vs and not to them This good Christian that he hath saied were of fome force if he any or all his fellowes togither were euer able to proue that they their church faith and Religion were such as Saint Iohn spake of when he so taxed men for their departure therfrom but seeing onely most beggerly all the packe of them this being the maine question betwixt them and vs alwaies take this for graunted them euen for their bolde impudent and importunate begging of it which we will neuer graunt them nor they shall euer be able to winne at our hands all that he hath saied herein is childish and vaine For we are alwaies most ready and willing to ioyne this issue with them for and about al the controuersies amongst vs that if we be not able by due conference of the Catholique and Apostolique doctrine taught by the Apostles Apostolicke men in the primitiue church testified and extant in their owne vndoubted writings with ours that we are of the same common knowen Catholique Church faith and Religion that they were and that the Romish Church in the thinges wherein wee differ from them is cleane departed from them and from the church of Christ her faith and Religion that then was that then we will as he saieth most willingly submit our selues yeelde and recant And I hope in answering of Iohn de Albine vpon occasion in sundry places I haue so shewed the agreeablenesse of our faith and Religion with the Apostles and the manifolde disagreements of the Church of Rome that nowe is from them and the ancient church of Rome planted by them as that euery one euen thereby sufficiently may see that not wee but they are the men that Saint Iohn spake of that haue departed from the true Church of Christ faith and Religion and that therefore this signe doeth so farre better agree to Papists then to vs that if this offerer will be as good as his worde hee must presentlie submit himselfe yeelde and recant In the meane time the manifest contrariety betwixt their doctrine and Christs and his Apostles made manifest vnto vs by the view of the scriptures thēselues and the notorious difference betwixt their churches practise now and the ancient churches of Rome for sixe hundreth yeares after Christ at the least made likewise euident vnto vs by all sound monuments of antiquity haue assured vs that in respect of them and their Romish Synagogue in these later daies to embolden vs to doe as we haue God from heauen by an Angel saied vnto vs go out of her my people least you be pertakers of her sinnes and so receaue of her punishments Apoc. 18. vers 4. And therefore as it was lawfull for Abraham to follow the Lordes calling Gen 12. to depart out of his owne cuntrey Chaldea and to forsake the abhominatiō thereof as it was wisedome for Lot at the admonition of the Angels to go out of Sodom Gen. 19. and as it was necessary that Christ and his should separate thēselues from the high Priests Scribes and Pharisees and their errours and superstitions though they then their followers bragged that they were the people of God his church so was it meete requisite for vs to depart as we haue from their Popish church and the popery thereof And as for our receauing our baptisme amongst them that bindeth vs no more to hold cōmunion with thē still in their false erronious religion then the receauing of circumcision bound Christ his Apostles those of the Iewes that beleued by their doctrine to continue felowship with the blind and superstitious synagogue of the hard harted Iewes or the receiuing of baptisme in former times at the hands of the ancient heretiques the Arriās or any other such like bound thē that were baptised by such y◠they might not separate themselues frō such to returne home againe to the true catholique church of Christ Againe if they thinke that men are bound alwaies to liue and die in that Religion whereof they were that baptized them why doe they labour by their Iesuits seminaries to seduce to their Religion such as we haue baptized But yet to touch them more neerely for all this brag of their still continuing in the faith and Religion they first receaued let euen their owne Baptisme and their faith and Religion that they after professe bee compared togither and the contrary will appeare For they being al baptized in the name onely of the Father the Sonne the holy Ghost as it is well knowen they are thereby they are bounde onely to beleeue in this Trinity in Vnity and Vnitie in Trinity and yet afterwardes all the sort of them notwithstanding the Apostles Creede and all other ancient Creeds teach them the same become plaine apostataes from this faith in beleeuing in a number both of persons and thinges that without blasphemy they cannot count either God the Father God the Sonne or God the holy Ghost Proofe and most palpable demonstration hereof is their beliefe in their owne merits merits of others Popes pardons halowed water other halowed things their beliefe in and therefore praying vnto Saints Angels In the wonderful prouidēce of God doubtles this forme of baptisme these creeds were preserued continued amongst thē not only to make it euen thereby euident whatsoeuer any of thē brag to the contrary neuer so oft that they are the men that daily depart both frō the faith of Christ first taught them their forefathers and after particulerly in their baptisme cōfirmed to euery one of them but also to make thē before both God man without all excuse of their so grosse apostacy from the same notwithstāding Wheras they know all the world els that knoweth vs know that we simply continue in this faith first deliuered vntd vs briefly by the holy catholique church in these creeds daily sealed vnto vs in our baptisme that euen for that it is that we are so hated and persecuted of
them that with them we will not run out frō this church and faith to beleeue in a 1000. things that are not God as they doe And therefore these things considered by this note they are proued to be the Antichristian false prophets heretiques schismatiques that he speaketh of and not we His second sure marke signe and token of false prophets c. is saieth he that they being departed from the catholique church doe of thēselues of their owne authority without warrant being not sent set vp a new gospell a new faith and Religion and so by preaching a newe doctrine assemble and set vp a newe church and congregation And to proue this Heb. 5. Rom. 10. and Exod. 4. are quoted whence onely we may learne to this purpose that none may take vpon them an office in Gods house without lawfull calling and warrant from him Yet hereupon as though these were most pregnant places to proue that to be necessary to a lawefull calling which the learned protestant can neuer proue to bee in our calling he promiseth likewise to yeelde and to recant when wee shall bee able to proue our iust and due vocation ordinarily or extraordinarily to proceede of God and not onely of mē By his owne words in describing this note or marke two things must concurre to the making of it namely the preaching of a newe Religion or Gospell and the doing of it without a iust and due vocation from God and yet in the prouing it to be such a marke in the applying it to vs he forgetteth altogither the former maketh only shew of proofe for the later Belike his own cōscience tolde him that howsoeuer it was an easie matter to insinuate that our religion was new that yet he was not able so much as to make any shew that he could proue it so to be indeed And touching the other howsoeuer the places quoted by him serue to proue a lawful calling or sending by God to be necessary for and to all such as shal take any office vpon them in his Church yet they proue not at al that there is any thing needful to the prouing of our vocation to be such wanting in ours neither doeth he name any thing required in any of these places to be in ours which he could say we wanted which it is likely he would not haue omitted to haue done if he had seene that with any probability he might haue done it And therefore any man may see that euen in this signe as in the former his onely ground is a false supposition that those things must needs be graunted him all which both most iustly and confidently we alwaies deny For without any proofe or shadow of proofe he in one periode assumeth three things against vs most vntruely slanderously as at large in sundry places of my answere to Albine I haue made it manifest namely that we are gone out of the true catholicke Church that wee haue set vp a new faith and religion and that we haue assembled a new Church and congregation Yea christian reader if thou wouldest but vouchsafe by the table annexed vnto this answere of mine to turne to the places in the saied answere where these points be handled the antiquity of our church and religion the newnes of popery and the contrariety betwixt the Romish church that now is the scriptures fathers and councels in the true catholicke church of Christ the lawfulnes of our calling to the ministry and the vnlawfulnes of their priesthood and vocation thereunto vnto other prelacies amongst them and when thou hast found them to read ouer wtout partiality what I haue writen hereof I doubt not but thereby thou wouldest see not onely that he vniustly hath here charged vs with these three faults but the most iustly we may charge thē with thē al. And therfore therunto referring thee for further answere vnto this threefold charge of his in this place vpon that which there thou shalt finde I hope with mee thou wilt conclude that this beeing a marke and a most certaine signe of antichristian heretiques as he saieth that it standeth faire vpon thē and not vpon vs therfore he should recāt The third signe tokē that the offerer talketh of is that such ouer and aboue the properties touched in the two former doe preach and teach contentiously and seditiously against the doctrine before time taught of the common knowen Catholicke Church of Christ as namely saieth hee against the sacraments of Christs Church by a flat denial of many of thē against the real presence of Christs body in the holy eucharist against the blessed sacrifice of the masse propitiatory both for the liue and the dead against penance the worthy fruits thereof by fasting watching and praier al straightnes of life against vowes inuocation of Saints praier for soules departed and finally against the Church it selfe flatly denying that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible Church to be heard speak perceiued or seene The ground of which signe he maketh that saying Hebrues 13 be you not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines so tearmed of the Apostle as he expoundeth him because they agree not but are contrary to the receiued and common knowen doctrine of Christs holy catholicke Church whereupon he groweth to his conclusion that when the learned protestant shal be able to proue that they and not we are by our preaching of these strange doctrines the raisers vp of these strifes and contentions then he wil recant and not before Whereunto I answere that vnderstanding by the common knowen catholicke Church the true Church of Christ which is knowen and acknowledged so to be alwaies of him and his faithfull members then we graūt that this is a right marke of such as he would haue it to be a marke of and that worthely in the thirteenth of the Hebrues all men are warned to take heed that they be not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines from that which she hath vniuersally taught and receiued But so taking the common knowen catholicke Church of Christ and not otherwise I say it and haue proued it in my answere to Albine that the Church of Rome that now is hath too long and doeth still not onely cōtentiously and seditiously but also furiously tirannically bloudely and euery way antichristianly preach against the doctrine before time taught by her and commonly receaued and professed by hers touching the true vse of the law and the gospell the office of Christ faith in him the doctrine of faith and workes and of praier and the sacramentes and almost of all other principall pointes of the true Christian religion And thus I am sure hee must vnderstand the church of Christ if either he would haue this to be a certaine signe of heretiques or to be thought rightly to haue expounded the 13. to the Hebrewes And therefore vnderstanding by the common knowen catholique Church of Christ
to offer him againe to his father If by penance he vnderstand repentance we neither preach against it nor against any worthy fruit thereof For we most earnestly call for both but if by penance be vnderstood either voluntary or enioyned penance as they commonly take it ioyned with an opinion thereby either to satisfie for sinnes past or to merit at Gods hand because we know that such penance and all the fruits thereof are abhominable before God because thereby Christ is robbed of that honour of a ful and perfect sauiour in by himselfe alone that is due vnto him then we graunt as we haue iust cause we preach against it Otherwise fasting straightnes of life watching and lawfull vowes to make vs more ready feruent in holy prayer we commend and vrge Indeed praying to Saints because we haue neither example coÌ„mandement nor promise in Gods book to encourage vs thereunto but all to the contrary we condemne as grosse idolatry and likewise prayer for soules departed as they vse it to relieue foules in purgatory for the same reasons and sundry other we preach against But what we teach of these two points and what not and what reasons we haue for our so doing and how quite voide they be of all ground for theirs I refer thee to the 37 Chapter of my answere to Albine where I haue at large shewed these things And thus much therfore for this 3 signe The next is to bring a schisme into the Church coÌ„trary to Pauls exhortation 1. Cor 1. and that such a schisme as wherby not onely one member shall be seperated from an other but the whole mystical body from the true head Christ Iesus which we to haue done in seperating our selues from their Church not they hee assumeth and so concludeth when the learned protestant can shew the coÌ„trary that he wil recant and not before Still thus thou maiest see good reader that this man is no changling For vnles that be graÌ„ted him which is the maine point betwixt vs that their Church is the true Church of Christ their doctrine the sound catholicke faith and religion he hath no ground or foundation for any thing he saieth For he cannot be so ignorant as to imagine that euery one straight is authour of such a schisme as he here speaketh of that by doctrine draweth others from euery society or company inuesting themselues with the name of the Church and bragging that they haue the trueth For what would he then make of Christ and his Apostles who in their time drew so many after them from holding any longer coÌ„mâ—â—tion with the Synagogue of the Iewes that then I am sure bragged as confidently of both these as this man and his fellowes doe now Or what would he say to those ancieÌ„t catholicks after Liberius time that when Arrianisme had in great part ouer run the world and the Arrians for many yeeres togither bragged theÌ„selues to be the onely 〈◊〉 catholicks disgracing theÌ„ that were so indeed with the name of Omousians that yet though they had got both bishops and emperours so many and so fast of their opinion that they had in ten seuerall councels goe sentence of their side ceased not labouring and traueling vntill they had drawen men againe to breake from them and to ioine with the poore persecuted contempt the number that then yet persecuted in the trueth I am sure they 〈◊〉 not for shame for all this count either Christ and his Apostles or these ancient catholicks antichristian heretickes or schismatiques And our drawing of meÌ„ by our doctrine now in these later daies from them is nothing else in trueth but an imitating as nigh as we can these renoumed and vndoubted good presidents examples that so the kingdome of Antichrist according to Saint Pauls prophesie might fal into consumption 2. Thessalonians 2 and that great Babylon might yet at leÌ„gth as it was reuealed vnto Ioh. Reuelations cap. 14. fall and come downe For not onely we saw that the Church of Rome had made a schisme but such an apostasie euen in the fundamentall points of Christian religion from Christ and his Church that there was no remedy but that we must breake of from her as we did or else we could neuer haue communioÌ„ indeed in Christ with his true Church Though therefore we know and at the first knew that peace vnity and concord were pretious things and by al lawfull meanes to be laboured for yet knowing withall as we doe did that it is vnity in verity and not in errour impiety with Christ not with Antichrist that is so much to be set by blame vs not for chusing rather according to these good exaÌ„ples to haue war with men then with God discord with Antichrist and al hes bread then with Christ and his members We grauÌ„t them therfore that to bring into the Church such a schisme as shal make diuision not onely amoÌ„gst Christs meÌ„bers but also of the body from the head is indeed an vndoubted signe of antichristian heretickes but wheras he taketh this for grauÌ„ted that this we haue done in departing froÌ„ theÌ„ as we haue that we deny For we teach men to hold hold our selues that faith religion as we are alwaies ready to proue by the canonical scriptures of the old and new testament that alwaies the true Church of Christ hath held and therfore which when hardly both holdeth the liuely members amongst themselues is vnity and also knitteth theÌ„ and their head Christ so fast together as that no popish or antichristian tiranny shall euer be able to seuer them And howesoeuer this proude challengeâ— thought wtâ—â— impossible thing for the learned protestant to proue that they haue brought into the Church such a schisme as hee speaketh of I the vnlearnedst often thousande doubt not that I am very well able to doe it For this is most certaine and cleare Iesus Christ the Sauiour of the worlde indeede is at this point beeing euery waie so able and willing as he did in his owne person and by himselfe alone to go through with the office of a most perfect Sauiour of mankinde that either so hee must bee beleeued in and trusted vnto for that matter or else hee taketh himselfe antichristianlie robbed of that 〈◊〉 and glory that is due vnto him and therefore wil be no part of a sauiour at all to such That this is most true appeareth because it is writed that God is so iealouse of his owne honour and glory that hee wil not abide that any should therein bee pertaker with him or rob him of any ioâ—t therof Esay 42. that in him all thinges are already prepared Matthew the twenty two that his name is the onely name whereby commeth saluation Actes 4. that hee is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Reu. 1. that he is the authour finisher of our faith Heb. 12. that by one offering he hath consecrated for
the bare and running with the hounde getteth a man frendes but he that will laye flattery aside tell the plaine truth shal get nothing but hatred Thus in these daies vice is extolled vertue contemned Ill rule is made â—f and good rule neglected O heart dissembled which vnder coulour to be iust true canst cloke vnto vs hipocrisie for deuotion ambition for gentlenesse couetousnes for â—oÌ„petencie cruelty for zeale bolde babling without learning for eloqueÌ„ce florishing Rhetoricke without fruit or reasoÌ„ folly for grauity wilines without wit and fleshly wanton libertie for liberty of the Gospell This is nothing els but the deuils drifte alway couering his poison vnder some taste of suger Fallit enim vitium specie virtutis vmbra g This inuectiue speech we may iustly vse of you and your side For the summe ende of all their false doctrine is nothing els but malice with murther to the ouerthrowe of Christes Religion and the true ministers thereof This is their sheepes clothing for an vnhappy reformation Nam impia sub dulci melle venena latent Vnder sweete honny is deadly venome hid O blinde ignorance and ignorant blindnes O cruell and damnable mischiefe comming from the bottomeles pit of hel O intollerable furiousnes and heresie more detestable then it mate any longer be suffered The greate dâ—spleasure the extreame vengaunce the cruell plagues of God hange ouer our heades if this horrible heresie be not shortly remoued froÌ„ mens mindes O h These wordes iustly we maie breake out into in respect of the infinite blasphemies and abominations held and maintained by your side in this point good god how long wilt thou suffer this intollerable abhomination It shameth me it abhorreth me to thinke that these shameles beastes are not ashamed to speake of the most blessed Sacramentes of Christes Church who is able to expresse either by tongue or penne their wicked abhomination whye haue we a pleasure to forsake the true vnderstanding of Gods most sacred worde and become followers and bondslaues of the deuils counterfaite and deceitfull expositions carnall reasons set out by his ministers who in Religion are i This obiection of the diuersitie of opinions see answered at large Cap. 4. so deuided that now they dreame one thing and now another this day they like tomorowe they mislike one is against another of them euen in the highest misterie of Christ his Religion And no meruaile for the deuill is their chiefe head whom they serue and he is full of lies variaunce diuision and discorde vnder him their Schoolemasters were Hus Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius Bucer Melancthon and the Archheretike Caluin k Therein there is no proofe that he helde any one heresy whose heresies are confuted in the Discourse hereafter ensuing l This is vntrue These with the rest of that rable did neuer agree one with another in their doings there is no vnity no certainty at all and therefore such masters such schollers come of them And this diuision this vnconstancie of doctrine was a manifest token that they were not the children of our true mother the Catholike Church nor ministers of Christ but the children of the deuill and ministers of Antichrist yea very Antichrists m Which that you papists be is most certain the contrariâ—ty of your doctrine with the auncient catholic e Church considered which I haue noted cap. 17. 29 of my answer For whosoeuer saieth S. Augustine is gone from the vnitie of the Catholicke Church hee is become an Antichrist These Antichrists haue borne a great stroke now too long time in our Realme of England in whom is no constancy no stedfastnesse of religion and doctrine These are they that haue damnably deceiued you and haue with their damnable preachings intised you from Church to Church from an heauenly Church to a malignant Church from a louing mother n This is false to a flattering harlot from the condition of grace to the state of perdition o These words remaining we iustly say to and of you from truth to falshoode from faithfull beleeuing to carnall reasoning from sauing Christ to deceauing Antichrist But good Reader beware be not deceaued be not ashamed to arise that hast so shamefully fallen be not ashamed to come home to your mother the Church sith shee is not ashamed to receiue you Let not folly lose the thing that grace hath so preciouslie offered and purchased Let not wilfulnesse and blindnesse put out so great light as is now shewed vnto thee but embrace most humblie the doctrine of our mother the catholicke church so shall you sit in the lappe of so tender a mother which will cherish you into life euerlasting Choose the best whiles choise lieth in lot What were you ashamed of your preface that you put not your name to it Indeede it is so fonde and friuolous that you might well enough be ashamed to father it An answere to the preface set before Iohn de Albines booke entituled A notable discourse against heretickes c. BEfore I take in hande to say any thing to Iohn de Albine or his booke I must craue of thee gentle reader whosoeuer thou art these two things that thou wouldest first giue me leaue to answere the long tedious and bragging preface prefixed before his booke by the publisher thereof and that then also thou thy selfe wouldest vouchsafe before thou goest any further either to the considering what Albine hath obiected or I answered to take the paines to reade ouer this my answere to the saide preface And though it seeme vnto thee of an extraordinary length so somewhat discourages thee yet the length of his considered likewise I pray thee beare with me and vouchsafe the reading of it thorow before thou proceedest any further His preface thou seest is long but indeede so vaine and friuolous it is that though it seemeth the authour thereof was some bolde and impudent Iesuite or fugitiue of our owne country yet such care he had of his credit that for feare of losse thereof he hath not thought good to put his name vnto it The vanity and weakenesse thereof may euen sufficiently appeare by those marginall notes that I haue affixed vnto it so that if I troubled thee with no further answere vnto it I hope it neither could nor should much moue thee or any other to thinke any thing the better of their Church and religion then thou didst before yet because neither he nor any of his faction for want of a further particular aunswere vnto it shall take occasion to persuade theÌ„selues or other that there is further weight and matter in it then indeede there is I will vouchsafe some more paines about it First therefore this I would haue thee Christian Reader for the coÌ„mendation of the authors great skill to obserue that almost al of it is spent in prouing those things which are needles because we teach graunt defende theÌ„ to
that they come to them by the ordinary way by right succession of Bishops and pastours continuing in one Catholicke faith downe from Christ to this present time thus childishly begging in one piece of one short sentence these foure great points all which in this case are betwixt vs and them in question namely that their officers all of them come to their roomes by the ordinary way that they haue right succession right Bishops and pastours and sounde and Apostolicke doctrine And yet though he knew well enough that wee constantly deny all these yet to proue that they come lawfully to their offices hee onely nakedly and barely affirmeth them as though he presumed that he was and should be such a Pythagoras in the conceit of all his Readers that for him once to say it were enough and enough againe For by and by after that thus he had onely saied hauing vsed neither proofe nor colour of proofe to backe his saying hee slippeth into another matter not yet called in question Whither a visible knowen and alwaies a demonstrable personall and locall succession of Bishops pastours be necessary for the perpetuall continuāce of the Church and preseruatiō of the trueth therin And thus hee windeth frō matter to matter leauing alwaies that vnproued which hee had most neede to haue proued labouring sweating continually about the proofe of that which though it were graūted him yet he might wel enough loose his cause As for example hauing entred into the foresaid matter in maner before saied in 3. or 4. whole Chapters following he shewes how the trueth is continued in the Church by succession of pastours how profitable their ministry is to bring men to to settle them in the truth that the anciēt trodē way by Christs sheepe downe from Christ to this day that the ancient Catholicke faith that the faith which in Irenaeus and Augustines time was helde and taught at Rome had vnto their times beene continued from Christ by succession of Bishoppes and pastours is the waie and faith that a Catholicke man must liue and die in whosoeuer saieth to the contrary In which propositions no maruaile though he goe on roundly for he hath winde and weather with him none of vs gainesaies him yea these things being rightly vnderstoode wee constantly affirme and teach the same But these things being all graunted him what is hee nearer his cause seeing as yet all the sort of them neuer could nor shall bee able to proue that their pastours succeed Christ his Apostles or the ancient holy Bishops pastours that were before Irenaeus Avgustines time in teaching the same doctrine that they taught But herein is his popish subtlely that standing thus vpō these points he would haue his Reader graūt him all these that their successiō of Priests Bishops is that successiō of pastours so profitable for the continuāce of the trueth and Church that their Romish Religion that now is is that ancient way that Christs sheepe haue alwaies trod so the ancient Catholicke Religiō which in Irenaeus Augustines time they the holy pastours Bishops at Rome and else where had soundly succeeding one another from the Apostles continued in vnto that time which are things whereof not one the Pope and all his confederates shall euer be able indeede to proue and therefore it seemeth Iohn de Albine thought it good policy seeing these thinges could be got no otherwise to trie whether he could get them thus by flatte begging of them And it seemeth also that hee presumed that hee should come onely to such liberall mens dores that all these should be graūted and giuen him euen at the very first asking for alwaies after he behaues himselfe in such sort as that without all peraduenture he had them all graunted him Onely a little in his thirty seuēth Chapter belike somewhat growing ashamed of his shamelesse begging al the while before he begins to make shew that if men should be so hard harted as to deny him that their pastours doctrine and Church are sound Catholicke that he is able to proue them so to bee whither such will or no. And yet euen there when all comes to all though indeede hee bragge that he could and would but for being too tedious to his Reader iustify the rest of their doctrine by the testimony of a number of doctours holy confessours and martyrs he onely by mustering of a sort of dumbe doctours vpon the stage makes his poore Reader beleeue that in the places quoted by him they speake directly to iustify their ceremonies their Auricular Confession praier for the dead and to the dead as though these were the principall matters in controuersy betwixt them and vs. But doubtles hee knew well enough that no one of his Readers amongst an hundred would and could turne the places and so try whither the men he name make there so for him or no. For otherwise for shame he would not haue quoted them so negligently falsely and corruptly as when I come to that place I shall shew thee hee hath These thinges considered Christian Reader thou must bee very simple and haue before hand thy minde wholy forestalled with his false principles or else hee shall winne with thee little credit to his cause or disgrace to ours Howbeit seeing both his whole drift and his publishers in his preface was as it euidently thereby appeares vnder the odious names of heretiques and schismatiques to disgrace vs and the trueth that wee professe as though it were not once to be called in questiō whither they and their crue were the onely sound Catholickes and Christians in the world before I let thee proceede come to the view of his declamation made to that ende and of my answere thereunto this vpon good and most cleare ground I protest vnto thee and assure thee what brags soeuer he or any other of his fellows make of their popish and Romish Religion that now is prosessed amongst them besides all other things that can or may be saied against it it is such a Religion and their Church the vpholder thereof such a dame as is the very nurse and baude of monstrous impietie as is intolerably iniurious to the right of the good estates of all Christian Princes and their people and as lastly howsoeuer it may seeme to carry a shew of holinesse it is not so but indeede cunningly vnder the colour thereof aymeth at no marke more then to aduaunce the pride pompe and gaine of her louers The first is euident in that their doctrine of their Popes supermacy is such as that for money hee may pardon any sinne as their practise teacheth either committed or to be committed yea their verie Hedge-priestes by the authority of the power of absolution giuen vnto them vpon penaunce done how light soeuer if it so seeme good vnto them haue and doe take vpon them marueilously that way to breede immunity and impunity by their absoluing whom for
polluted prophaned Vriah the priest ioyned with the king in the erection of a new altar in coÌ„mitting abhominatioÌ„ before the Lord though he were one that had his calling by the ordinary way of succession of priests froÌ„ AaroÌ„ Againe though Ezechiah succeeding Ahaz for his time did notably rid the Church of the abhominatioÌ„s wherw t his father had defiled it yet wheÌ„ he was dead his son Manasses his son Amon brought it to as il an estate as euer it was in so much that froÌ„ the beginning of Manasses raign vnto the 18 of Iosiahs the booke of the law of the Lord was lost which was wel nigh 80 years for theÌ„ it is noted that Hilkiâ—h the priest found it 2. King 22. In Manasses his time it is euideÌ„t Idolatry opeÌ„ly preuailed the whole Synagogue saue a few prophets their folowers erred If we proceed during the 70 years captiuity in Babylon what visible appareÌ„t shew of any successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors caÌ„ we finde the ioined togither in the exercise of Gods religioÌ„ Was not their teÌ„ple then destroied consequently did not the publick exercise of their religioÌ„ which for the most part was tied theruÌ„to cease as it was prophesied by Hosea Ca. 3. therfore lameÌ„ted by Ieremy Ca. 3. LaÌ„ WheÌ„ Christ our sauiour caÌ„e into the world surely then God had his Church For it is a most certaine article of our faith that since it begaÌ„ it hath neuer ceased nor neuer shal yet what visible succession of pastors and priests was there theÌ„ in possession of souÌ„o religioÌ„ Had not they as euideÌ„tly appeareth by the stories writeÌ„ by the EuaÌ„gelists that were in the visible personal succession corrupted the doctrine of the Messias both concerning his person and office so that they were the deadliest enemies that he had But you wil say perhaps that though these thinges were thus in the Church in the time of the olde Testament yet it may not be so in the Church now in the time of the new And why so Howsoeuer otherwise there be some differeÌ„ce betwixt the Church then and now in respect of the more cleare reuelation now then then of the doctrine of the Messias whereof that Heb. 8.6 is by soÌ„e vnderstood yet in this respect you shal neuer be able by the word writeÌ„ or any true story to proue any necessary difference vnles it be that God had tied then his promises to that peculier people his seruice in great part to their temple and that he had ordained amoÌ„gst them a priesthood to continue by natural succession so that the Church theÌ„ had more right to plead visible succession then now In the meane time thus much is gained by these stories of the Church in the time of the olde testament that this outward clearenes visible succession you talke of is not an inseparable note of the true Church for therby we haue seene it seperated ofteÌ„times from it And vnles men were peeuishly disposed to maintaine a manifest vntruth conuicted so to be both by Scripture and experieÌ„ce you would see grauÌ„t that it is as separable from the Church now since Christ For is it not plainely prophesied 2. Thess 2. that there should come a departing from the faith by the comming of Antichrist and that very great and effectual And least you should babishly foolishly as many of you doe vnderstand this of an Antichrist that towards the end of the world should come and raigne seduce men 3 yeares an halfe marke that here Paul telleth vs in his time that this mistery of iniquity did already worke which it did in that there were false Apostles there that taught men to seeke iustification partly by faith partly by the workes of the law as it appeareth by the Epistle to the GalathiaÌ„s weigh that he attributeth vnto him such things as could not be brought to passe in that space lastly consider that he teacheth that though he should be detected and fal into a consuÌ„ptioÌ„ by the Spirit of Gods mouth yet he should not be fully abolished before Christs second comming All which make it most euident that Paul here prophecieth of a longer lasting Antichristianity which should trouble the Church theÌ„ yours of 3 years an halfe continuaÌ„ce But least yet this notwitstaÌ„ding you should imagine that the fulfilling of this prophecy your faÌ„sie of perpetual clearnes vniuersality of the church may staÌ„d alwaies togither S. Iohn in his ReuelatioÌ„ describing as you al must coÌ„fesse the state of the Church seeth her in a vision by the great 7 headed DragoÌ„ driuen into the wildernes and there glad to be fed for a season Chap. 12. And he seeth the Babilonish harlot the true patterne of your Romish prelacy by which harlot he most notably setteth forth Antichrist his kingdome committing fornication not with a fewe but with the Kings and inhabitants of the earth not ruling or sitting ouer a few but as the Angel there expoundeth the waters whereon she was seene to sit people multitudes natioÌ„s toÌ„gues Apoc. 17 Al which laied togither doe plainly shew that after Christ there should grow such a defection froÌ„ the fayth in the world by the means of Antichrist that during the florishing of his kingdome the true Church and her pastours should be driuen into the wildernes and so for that time should haue in comparison of Antichrists followers small visibility and shew in the eies of the world Which we say and constantly are able to defend hath beene verified in the late florishing of your Romish Prelats Besides view the stories of the church the Cronicles of times and you shal be driuen to confesse that though the Church hath had alwaies her two witnesses Re. 11 to testifie to the trueth that they neuer could be extinguished quite by TyraÌ„ts yet she hath often beene driuen from carying any great shewe of visibility in the world For certaine marble pillers at Salmantike erected in the hill of S. Bartholomew doe witnes that Diocletian Iouius and Maximinianus Herculeus imagined when they caused them to bee erected that they then had quite layed the honour of Christ for euer in the dust and as it should seeme by the circumscriptions that they thereupon caused to bee engraued they set theÌ„ vp euen of purpose to brag that they had like great conquerers quite extinguished as they terme it the superstitioÌ„ of Christ Which they would neuer haue done if either they or their fauorites had then seene a visible succession of Bishops and pastours amongst them and had knowen their names and where to haue found them If wee go on to the time that the Arrians most florished wee shall read that the Emperour Constantius sayed to Liberius Quota pars es tu orbis terrarum qui solus facis cum homine scelerato meaning Athanasius Ecclesiast Hist Theodoreti lib. 2. cap 16. whereby it appeareth that then the
Catholiques that withstood the Arrians in the sight of this Emperour had but a poore visibility to bragge of Yea Piggius your owne man confesseth Hierar lib. 1. cap. 6. that their poison had defiled not a part but almost the whole world in so much that almost al the Bishops not only of the east but also of the West by one meanes or other were blinded and no small time continued this heresie and this is certaine that they bragged then as much of visible succession of the name of the Church and vniuersality as euer since you haue done calling the true Christians Homousians as you doe now Lutherans Zwinglians as appeareth in the writings of those that wrote against them You may see therefore that these weapons or staies are coÌ„mon to you with blasphemous and condemned heretiques These places of Scripture and experiments therefore caused August vpon the 10. Psalm 78. Epist to compare the Church vnto the Moone which besides the monethly waynings suffereth oftentimes ecclipsies And surely vnles we be too too wilfull al these things togither may make vs out of doubt that the Church of God both before Christ since hath ofteÌ„ failed to cary any such outward visible shew in theeies of the world that it is so easie a matter to make at al times demonstration of her Pastours teachers who they were and where they taught as you our aduersaries would beare the world in hand it is And therefore for answere to this Chapter to any reasonable man this is sufficieÌ„t The II. Chapter SAint a Thus you are falne from prouing that you are come to your places by the ordinary calling of such as haue ri htly succeeded one another both in person office trueth of doctrine which is the thing you should haue proued to shew that there hath alway bene and must be a successioÌ„ of Pastours to continue settle meÌ„ in the truth which is another point For though this were grauÌ„ted you yet you haue not therby wun the other Paul followeth this discourse in the fourth Chapter vnto the EphesiaÌ„s where as he doeth declare vnto vs the fruit that doeth proceed of this successioÌ„ of Pastours and of the perseueraÌ„ce of the reasonable sheepe in one kinde of spirituall doctrine called the vnity of faith For he sayeth that God established this order to that ende that wee should not bee like light children a The more is your sinne that haue suffered yourselues to be caried away froÌ„ the truth by the enticements of Antichrist caried away with euery blast of false doctrine through the subtilitie of men their crafty words full of deceit In these wordes you doe see how the Apostle doeth declare vnto vs the counsaile the intentioÌ„ of the holy Ghost b If you had beene constant in this faith wee and you had beene all of one minde and vnles we can â—ustifie our faith to bee euen so grounded as you say we will forsake it and ioine with you but if we caÌ„ then you are to forsake yours to ioine with vs if you will answere the intention of the holie Ghost I meane that we should be constaÌ„t in our faith the which is grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the Doctours Pastors that successiuely haue continued in one kinde of faith Catholick religion froÌ„ the first time that it was preached with out turning with euerie winde but rather that we ought to stand firme stable Here is to be noted that wheÌ„ the Apostle doeth tel how he hath left vs pastors doctors to warne vs of the subtletie of false teachers he doth vse a certaine greeke word very apt for this purpose the which hath in English the signification of the c I would not you had forgot this note for it doeth liuely paint out your doctours which by this their skil in cogging and cosening doe make the scriptures to haue a flexible sence alwaies sutable to the practise of your Romish Church how variable so euer that be playing or cogging at dise And euen as he that hath no great skill if he plaie with such a one he wil soone lose his money because the other caÌ„ cast what he will EueÌ„ so if a simple maÌ„ being vnlearned doe chaÌ„ce to talke with such a one as caÌ„ cog or to speake plainelie falsly interprete the Scriptures he may soone be deceaued as we see it daily happeÌ„ to many that play away put in hazard the rest of al their spiritual inheritaÌ„ce I meane the faith which hath bene left to theÌ„ by their fathers froÌ„ age to age since Christs time Thus haue the Arrians the Nestorians diuers other heretikes deceiued manie a man as I will shewe more at large hereafter The II. Chapter IN this second chapter you obserue further out of the 4 to the Ephe. before alleadged that God established a ministery in his Church that we should not be like childreÌ„ caried away with euery blast of vain doctrine thorow the subtlety of meÌ„ their crafty words full of deceit whereupoÌ„ you inferre that thereby God hath taught vs to be constaÌ„t in our faith grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the doctors pastors that successiuely haue coÌ„tinued froÌ„ the beginning in the same Who of vs euer either wrote spoke or thought otherwise But herein is your subtlety that you take this stil for grauÌ„ted which indeed is the maine question betwixt vs and for determinatioÌ„ wherof on your side you haue as yet saied nothing that the faith and religion which your Synagogue is in possessioÌ„ of is that faith which you speake of which we constantly deny affirming the faith religion which we professe to be that indeede wherein the Apostle would haue vs constant and setled and which hath alwaies coÌ„tinued in the Church and hath bene taught and iustified out of the word writen by the true pastors thereof in one place or other froÌ„ time to time And therfore herein you haue saied nothing but the we vnderstanding it of our faith and religion maketh as much for vs as for you We grauÌ„t you also that false teachers and wrong interpreters of the Scriptures worthily there may haue their subtlety expressed by a word importing cogging or cosening but then still we adde that your teachers a long time haue bene the meÌ„ that haue vsed and yet doe vse that cogging tricke Which if it would please you once by the souÌ„d rules of interpreting the scriptures to let your interpretations and ours be examined we doubt not but to make most manifest vnto all men quickly The III. Chapter THe place that I haue quoted of the Apostle doth shew how daÌ„gerous a thing it is to fal into the hands of such Coggers of the scriptures likewise how certaine a thing it is a Such interpretation of the doctour we will most willingly follow and if you should you would
Catholicâ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene
before vs agreeing in vnitie of faith as I haue already said For neither the naughtines of h There is no such there mentioned this is your common hap in your quotations It seemes you would haue said 2. Kings 16. Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuerse other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to saie that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersation of diuerse wicked Popes that haue followed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene a This is true and yet you neuer the nearer For though al Papists faile in faith yet his church neuer faileth able to moue Christ to breake his promise that is to saie that the faith of his Church should neuer faile Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saie of infidelity which are the portes of damnation should neuer preuaile against it b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein serueth to this purpose any whit at all Esay 58. Our aduersaries therefore that take such great paines to set forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes that haue beene since Saint Peters time thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the succession of the Catholicke ecclesiasticall faith c Your comparison is odiou◠neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues to that ende you speake of but to shew that your glory is your shame doe no lesse offend God then if they should go about to proue the promise of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine because of the evill liues of their successours Therefore those that doe reproche vnto vs now that the Popes of our daies are not altogither so holie as S. Peter wee doe confesse it But they cannot deny or they will confesse vnto vs that the aboue named euil Kings Achaz Ioram Manasses Amon Iechonias and others did leade no such holy liues as Abraham Isaac Iacob or Dauid yet notwithstanding those euil Kings haue beene set forth in the generation of our Sauiour as the fathers of the iust Iesus Christ Let them iudge then that haue any witte whether this bee a great folly or no to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse to be the Popes spirituall children because they were sinners seeking thereby to ouerthrow all the ancient customes of the Church The VII Chapter WHither onely your succession doeth suffice to ouerthrow all our Religion or any part of it though you here confidently say it is and suppose that to be the cause why we reiect it I refer to the iudgement of the reader by that which hitherto hath beene saied by you and confuted by me concerning the same Whereby also I doubt not but euery indifferent reader may perceiue that we haue and doe still yeelde other causes of our reiection of it and not this at all Whereas you call our Religion here heresie that you haue learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there a captaine of the Sect or heresie of the Nazarites and the high Priest and elders saied it was euen so yet hee was not ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which they so tearmed but stoutly saied before Felix to their faces that according to that way which they counted heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers beleeuing all that was writē in the law the Prophets so though you giue vs neuer so many nicknames and tearme our Religion neuer so oft new and an heresie and haue your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing we neuer a whit the more mislike of our Religion as long as wee are able in trueth to say with Saint Paul which our consciences witnesse comfortably we may that therein we doe but beleeue that which is taught vs in the canonicall Scriptures Indeede not Caluin only but euery one of vs when we haue to doe with you in this question of your succession we tell you your reason drawen frō your succession is of no force seeing the Greekes whom you account heretiques may vse that argument as well as you But to preuent this our obiection against your argument of succession you say They haue not succession and continuance of doctrine the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuāce of pastors to shew the true recognisance of the Catholique Religion We are glad to see heare that euidence force of trueth hath wrong frō you this kinde of honest true replie to our obiection yet we thanke you not for it at all For ful gladly if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce would you haue run on which bare succession of Bishops pastours without any mention of this Well howsoeuer you haue beene drawen to confesse thus much thereupon it doeth most euidently followe that if there be as little continuance lesse too in the Apostolicke faith and doctrine in your succession as there is amongst the Greekes then by your owne confession your succession is as weake a recognisance of the Catholique Religion as theirs And therefore the case thus standing you had neede to haue bestowed lesse paines to proue your personall succession and more to haue proued this succession and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine for the other wtout this you see is nothing What a preposterous course is this then that you haue takē to take such leasure to bestow pains on that which when you haue gotten is nothing to find no leasure to bestow any paines on this which if you could haue proued your aduersaries would haue stoode with you no longer Enter yet into this controuersie when you will I dare vndertake if you will be tried in this case by the canonicall scriptures which as I haue shewed you must of necessity it shall easily be proued that notwithstanding all you can say against the Greekes your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies and is a greater Apostasie from the ancient Catholique Apostolique faith then theirs The greatest thing you charge thē withall is their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father the Sonne which indeede if they denied in that sence that is obiected against them by you doubtles therin they were heretiques But it should seeme that they refuse only that word as not vnderstood of thē added as they say without the consent of the whole church to the creede of feare onely least by admitting the word they should thereby be enforced to cōfesse that he came not of one beginning but of two beginnings in the meane time vsing other words expressing in effect the same thing And if it be thus as in the last session of the Florētine councell it should seeme to be els where thē in that respect their cause is not so ill as
yet without fruit to the receiuer the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant the matter is not of so great moment weight as that either you should neede to make such a doe about or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for Which I hope God will in his good time reueale vnto them and so make them to giue ouer their contention and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter that you verie greatly belie vs when you write that we haue giuen absolute sentence that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead constituted in a third place called Purgatorie For both your deuyses of Purgatorie and of praying to God for the releife of soules there wee saie and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason dreames and fond visions and apparitions and neither taught by the Apostles nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ for three hundred yeares at least after Christ Tertullian was the first and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead And vntill the Florentine councell the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie to haue spared this your merrie conceit and pleasant deuise of wishing vs though wee refuse your Purgatory to prouide a thirde place for them whom our contentions make constant on neither side For either if you had beene wise you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it or els you would haue let it alone for altogither The XXIX Chapter IT doeth appeare well by that that I haue saied howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his ovvne particuler sense beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques as I haue alreadie saied There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion and to reforme ones conditions for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners a Good stuffe by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences there is no need to regard whether the doctrine be new or olde for as the Apostle saieth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to bee talked of as touching ones faith the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b And such be all they whosoeuer made them that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures of whâ—ch kinde your popish interpretations be singular interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious c If this rule be receiued and followed your popery will bee found new deuises and wil you nil you you shall become all one with 〈◊〉 He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church without making any accompt of al these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to any mason although his cunning bee but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can finde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seekes to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture not altogither to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I knowe his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me change my naughty life and to leaue my ill conditions d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue â—opery to be thus grounded But when he shall come to touch my faith and to perswade me froÌ„ that that all my ancetours did euer holde from that that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verie best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you saie that they maie all erre I praie remember the olde prouerbe that saieth he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise and all the other fooles that it is more agreeable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as they say commonly two eies see more then one and foure more then two The XXIX Chapter WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen to disproue either our vocatioÌ„ or Religion for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter by weighing togither your obiections and my answers now let the indifferent Reader iudge vnto whom I doubt not your bragge notwithstanding it shall and will well appeare that both may be builded vpon the rocke for any thing you haue yet saied The onely new thing that you set downe in this Chapter is this that the former variety amongst theÌ„ that alleadge scripture considered you allow well that one should listen to meane men alleadging scripture though not very aptlie to reforme maners withall But when they are alleadged to teach faith then it is meete that the Catholique man trust none but the best and those alleadging them according to the general Councels and all ancient doctours And therefore you write that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations that he must follow the sentence helde taught by the ancient Catholique Church not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith that all his ancetours did euer holde the Catholique Church hath euer helde the Scriptures generall Councels and all the ancieÌ„t doctours doe teach In which case if one should take vpoÌ„ him to be wiser then all these you would haue him according to the prouerbe accounted a foole that thinketh himselfe onely wise and all others fooles because in reason it is more likely that one should erre then al these c. Be it that al this were very true what haue you woonne hereby against vs For neither shall you euer be able to proue as we haue often tolde you that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures general councels or fathers as you herein take it for granted on your side For in trueth you haue none of these on your sides but the onely grounds of your religion are your owne priuate and singular interpretations traditions of men without warrant either from the Scriptures indeed soundly vnderstood or from generall Councels or ancient fathers that are worthy to bee of credit in Gods Church For
the philosophers of outward good works wherof you brag lustily in the later ende of this Chapter yet you shall neuer be able to proue your selues good trees because your Religion by the sound and perfect touchstone of the scriptures wil be proued false and Idolatrous This your selfe giue to be the very reason why the philosophers were bad trees notwithstanding that in respect of outward shew of holines we may truely confesse with you that euen their liues at the day of iudgement shall will confound a number of Christians in name which led Painims liues And therefore vntill it be set out of question that your Religion is not false nor Idolatrous which is impossible as long as the Scriptures keepe their place if you bragge of ten times moe outward workes then either you doe or can yet your owne mouth will condemne you as yet to haue saied nothing to proue your selues good trees And on the contrary euen by this your owne saying if we can proue our religion to be the sound Christian faith taught indeede by Christ and his Apostles and therefore that neuer since hell gates could preuaile against it which we doubt not of whensoeuer you will enter into this controuersie with vs then for all your saying here to the contrary Christes sentence shall giue vs very good aduantage Thus hauing shewed your cunning in restraining and collecting of this prouerbe of Christ as I haue now as one that after some wresting found it stronger for you then you would haue thought you graunt it to be most true the naturallie a good tree bringeth forth good fruit not bad at all and a crab-tree nothing but crabs And this you labour to proue first by certaine testimonies of S. Iohn affirming that he that is borne of God sinneth not then by other places as Iohn 8. Sap. 1.1 Cor. 10. you confirme that doctrine of S. Iohn lastly by a similitude shewing that as the rottennes wormeatennes or any such fault in the fruite of a good tree letteth not but that still naturally that tree may be saied to beare good fruit because these things fall out by some accident vnnaturall to the tree euen so the good tree alwaies as it is a good tree bringeth forth naturally good fruit Here in effect you let go and giue ouer the former restraining of Christs words and recant that you saied before the aâ—il tree as the philosophers may bring forth good fruit a good tree as a Catholique in Religion by whom you meane a Papist may bring forth ill fruits and will you nill you you are enforced to confesse that Christes wordes are generally true simply therefore alwaies verified of both good trees and bad trees as they are naturally considered But yet you adde the tree is knowen by his fruit and faith by workes so as then the fruit bee ripe in due season not otherwise Wherein I take your meaning to be that not euery shew of fruites nor vnripe works but works indeede good both in matter and maner of doing are the fruits whereby a good tree iustifying faith is discerned You yet proceede and say that as a rotten and wormeaten apple hanging vpon a good tree seeing that came not thorow the nature of the tree but by meanes of wormes birdes or some other such accident ministreth not a sufficient argument to proue that tree to be an ill tree so the ill workes of Christians ought not to staine their holy Catholique religioÌ„ For the corruption of their fruits commeth not from the nature of these religion which forbiddeth such fruits or workes but from themselues In all this vnderstanding not as you doe but as you should the holie Catholique Religion indeede which yours will neuer proue we ioyne with you and allow what you haue saied And as you supposing your religion to be the holy Catholique religion haue thus answered the obiection drawen from the good workes of professours of our religion and from the bad workes of yours so euen in the same words and maner supposing our religioÌ„ not yours to be that true holy religioÌ„ your obiection against vs grounded vpon the good workes of some of yours lewde liues of some that yet professe ours is also answered For we tel you as you seeme here to tel vs that your works are not ripe works such as good works should be both in matter and maner and therefore no argument more of the goodnes of your religion then the Philosophers works were of the goodnes of theirs that the ill works fouÌ„d in some of our professours ought not to steine our religioÌ„ forasmuch as none of them are iustified but condemned by the same But in the vttering of these things you haue vttered diuers things whereof it is needful to admonish both you and your Reader First in examining S. Iohns words you seeme simply to vnderstand that by being borne of God hee meant nothing else but being baptized as though they were both one or at least so inseparably coÌ„ioined that whosoeuer were outwardly baptized were certainely forthwith thereby inwardly regenerated and new borne wherein you and al that ioyne with you therein shew both great errour and ignorance in the doctrine of that sacrament For though by that sacrament al that haue receiued it are sacramentally new borne and receiued into Christs Church and therein haue had the washing away of their sinnes in the bloud of Christ represented vnto them offered vnto them and sealed and ratified on Gods behalfe to belong vnto them if they inwardly also will imbrace it yet to confound the sacrament of regeneration and the washing away of our sinnes with regeneration and remission of sinnes it selfe or to tye the later so vnto the former as that of necessity whosoeuer is partaker of the former is also partaker of the later is against all good diuinity Scripture and experience For diuinity admitteth not a confounding of the outward signe with the inward grace in a sacrament the scripture experience withall teacheth vs the SimoÌ„ Magus was baptised and yet no sounde diuine euer helde that forthwith thereby he was inwardly regenerated for by his fruites the contrary by and by euidently appeared Act. 8. Againe if outwardly to be baptised were by by to be regenerated then al that haue beene baptised haue beene inwardly regenerated all that are baptised once must needs be so which thing if it were so why how coÌ„meth it to passe that many neuer shew any fruites of regeneration and die giuing plaine euidence that they were neuer borne anew notwithstanding they were baptised and that there is no more hast made to baptise Turkes Iewes and whomsoeuer we can come by But it seemeth that as you holde this errour of baptisme that to defend it withall you are of opinion that a man once may be truely regenerated and so the childe of God iustified and sanctified in the bloud of Christ through grace and yet
of such vayne wordes as these aboue twenty times I am sure without any proofe at al therein repeated Indeed if in al your life you could proue but halfe so much as confidently here you set downe then you were a notable fellow indeede and then truely we would striue no longer with you But in the meane time seeing we know your speeches are such as you can neuer proue and that we are able against you both to proue the falshoode of yours and the trueth of our owne blame vs not if wee esteeme not your words Yet lest you should saie that these likewise are but words in vs as the former haue beene in you though I see no reason to the contrary but that our words containing a iust and true denial of yours were sufficient confutation thereof I say and will proue it that you shew your selfe a man past al shame in writing here as you doe that all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day al the doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires kingdomes priuate states throughout al the world are against vs for they haue al receiued honoured that doctrine that we count papisticall For first such is the newnes thereof as I haue plentifully shewed in diuers places already of this booke that none of all these for sundry 100. yeares were once euer acquainted therwith yea that diuers of your assertions which are the very principallest of your opinions as namely your dotcrine of Transubstantiation of your Popes being in authority aboue generall Councels and of denying the cuppe to the lay people are not yet of 400. yeares age and continuance And it is notoriously knowen that in the daies of Gregory the 9 about the yeare of Christ 1230 by occasion of iniury and oppression offered by the Pope to that Church that the Greeke Easterne Churches departed quite from the Church of Rome and neuer since though it hath beene oft attempted could be brought to hold communion therewith againe insomuch that in your conuenticle at Trent you haue condemned them for schismatical and heretical Churches And these Churches as it is noted in an ancient record in the Church of Herford differ from yours at the least in 29 articles And they holde yours excommunicate and an Apostata Church vnto this day And vnlesse your reading be very small you cannot be ignorant that Math Paris writeth that the Patriarch of Constantinople at the Councell of Lyons shortly after this breach shewed that of 30. bishoprickes in Greece the Pope had not three that then held communion with him and that all Antioch and the Empire of Romania to the gates of Constantinople was gone quite from him There is also extant in print in ancient record an Epistle writen about seuen yeares after this breach began in the yeare 1237 by one Germanus Patriarch of Constantinople vnto the Pope wherein not only he laboureth to make him see that the occasion therof was that he tooke more vpon him ouer those Churches then he should but amongst other argumēts to persuade him to see his folly he sheweth him that not onely the Greeke Churches themselues but that al so the Aethiopians Syrians Hiberians Alani Gothi Charari with innumerable people of Russia and the mighty kingdome of the Vulgarians held communion with his Church of Constantinople and so by occasion of this schisme had forsakē felowship with the Roman Church And the Cosmographers write that the iurisdiction of the Patriarch of Canstantinople reacheth so farre that all Greece Misia Belgaria Thrasia Walachia Moldauia Russia Muscouia the iles of the Aegaean sea and Asia the lesse bee vnder the same It is also reported by authours of good credit that at this day vnder the other Patriarchs of Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem and vnder the other in the dominions of Presbyter Iohn in Africa there be infinit numbers of Churches and Christians differing from yours and ioining with ours in manie thinges So that Churches also both in the East North and South and that of very great amplitude within the time that you speake of haue professed Christ and yet haue neuer beene acquainted with most or many at the least of the pointes for the which your religion is counted of vs Papisticall in all which there haue beene some doctours vniuersities Empires Princes and priuate men no doubt since Christ before you wrote that neither honoured nor receiued your papistical religiō Yea but that merueilously you ouershot your selfe you might haue remembred that within the time limited by you in these Westerne partes there haue beene euen vnder your Popes nose and in his greatest ruffe many doctours vniuersities and some Emperours kings and priuate estates that haue neither receiued nor so honoured your religiō which we cal papistical as here you would beare your reader in hand For euen in these parts and within the compasse of these times haue bene you know Wickliffe Hus and Luther vniuersities kingdomes good store haue had both your religion Church in defiance long before you wrote He that readeth but the stories of Philip Lodovicke the last French kings of Henry the 4 5. of the 2. Fredericks the 1 2 Emperours and the Cronicles of king Iohn here in England and of 2 or 3 of his successours he shal easily perceiue that much within the compasse of time that you speake of both Empires and Kingdomes with their Emperours and Kings haue beene far from making that reckoning of your popish Church and religion that you here bragge of or else doubtlesse you must needs confesse that your Popes haue beene vnreasonable creatures that haue so cursed and banned these men as they haue and which besides haue caused such infinite Christian bloud to be by warre shed to hamper them These things considered euen children may see not onely the vanity but grosse falshood of these your wordes For howsoeuer either here or else where in this your booke you would cause your reader to beleeue that your Romish Church is the catholicke Church of Christ euery one indeed may see that in trueth it is but a particuler and a petty Diocesse in comparison of the catholicke Church of Christ For the reader must vnderstand that the Church of Christ is called catholicke first because the religion that shee imbraceth is that which hath beene at al times will be to the end the true religiō of God secondly because the same Church in respect of the mēbers therof especially since the calling of the Gentiles is not to be limited or shut vp within the compasse of any particuler countries but may vniuersally be dispersed amongst all nations and in al countreyes where it pleaseth the Lord. In neither of which sences can the Romish Church be truly accounted catholick For neither is her doctrine that which the true Church of Christ embraced was in possessiō of for 4000 years more neither are the
traditions because they wil not stand with the plaine scriptures themselues we reiect Otherwise we are ready alwaies to proue our sence thereof to agree with the ancient Church her doctours better then yours can And as for the variety amongst vs of interpretatioÌ„s which you charge vs withal sure we are it wil neuer proue so great as hath beene and is amongst you or as is betwixt your interpretation and that which was of them 900. yeares ago and therefore for any thing you haue yet saied you your selues are the rouing sheepe froÌ„ the ancient sheepfold you are they which whiles men slept haue sowed cares amongst the good corne and which are the sheepe sicke in religion as well as in maners and not we And therefore they that haue ioined with you whosoeuer they haue beene are like at the day of iudgement to smart for nothing more then for taking part with you And so to conclude this Chapter whatsoeuer hitherto you haue gained at the handes of the simple by these your vaine and swelling wordes you shall hereafter loose ten times as much amongst them that are wise thereby The XL. Chapter I Know wel that you will take this confession of mine to your aduantage saying that for feare of being infected with our superstitious diseases you haue seperated your selues froÌ„ the coÌ„mon flocke but if you doe consider my first words they haue barred you al maner of waies to reply iustly for I haue already saied that although wee be sickely weake sheepe as touching our doings or maners yet in regarde of our faith thaÌ„kes be to God we are safe sound keeping stil a Indeede you haue saied and saied it againe againe but yet you haue neuer proued â—t nor 〈◊〉 that integritie of religion that by succession of pastors we haue receiued froÌ„ the Apostles without adding or diminishing any thing to the ground of our Catholicke beliefe for as for ceremonies the Church hath vsed the euer as touching the time the place to the honour of God edification of our neighbours b Your antichristian religion is that that hath caused vs to separate ourselues from you as wee are biddeÌ„ Reue. 18. vers 4. therfore if you did seperate your selues froÌ„ our kinde of liuing to lead a holy solitarie life as the holie Heremites Saints haue done in times past forsaking the coÌ„uersation of the coÌ„mon people to liue in coÌ„teÌ„plation without seperating theÌ„ selues froÌ„ the coÌ„munioÌ„ of the Church in the which they haue beene baptised had receiued their faith your doings had beene as much worthie of praise in that respect as now they are daÌ„nable considering how you forsake the coÌ„moÌ„ tabernacle within the which both you we haue receiued the sacraments of regeneration our spiritual food altogither And to the ende that no body run astraie froÌ„ the right path that he should follow the good ChristiaÌ„ ought to fixe in his minde this resolution I meane to serue God to liue in the catholicke faith coÌ„monlie or priuatelie for wheÌ„ there is any questioÌ„ put as touching the life the coÌ„moÌ„n are c This is a right popish glosse that is a plaine peruerting of Christs meaning as * Mat. 7. Christ doth say doth lead one to perdition the narrow waie doeth guide vnto the part of saluation But if one speake of religion the contrarie is verified for the coÌ„mon way is the waies of health the priuate waie is the path of damnation d And this is an other The Prophet Dauid in the 24 Psalme had a regard to this when he praied God to teach him his waies by the religion his pathes by the maners and customes The XL. Chapter YOu were deceiued in thinking that we would pretend your euil maners or your difference in ceremonies for the defence of our seperation from you For we haue alwaies protested that it was especially your Antichristian doctrine that hath caused vs to accouÌ„t that Reuelations 18.4 Go out of her my people that ye be not pertakers in her sins and that yee receiue not of her plagues directly spoken to vs concerning your Romish Synagogue and religioÌ„ And therfore is it that we haue so seperated our selues from you as we haue because we find that you are apostataes long haue bene from the ancient Catholicke Church of Christ and from the truly coÌ„mended ancient Roman Church it selfe with whom we cannot growe in common vnlesse we had forsaken your fellowship And this kinde of seperation of our selues from you we know was more necessarie and is more coÌ„mendable then al the seperation of Heremites or any other of your caged birdes howsoeuer you could haue allowed that better then this of ours But you would seeme to haue bound vs to haue continued with you because that we receiued many of vs baptisme at your hands What I trust you are not so meane a diuine as to thinke it alwaies best for men to continue communion with them in all things that haue baptised them You know I am sure that the Arrian heretickes their heresie spreading it selfe so broad as it did and continuing diuers 100 yeares and other heretiques as well as they baptised many and yet I hope you wil not thinke that they might not after forsake their heresies to turne to the truth You know many did forsake them and came to the trueth yet it was counted an heresie to baptise them againe The better yet to shew that we should not haue departed from you you tel vs that you haue continued without adding and diminishing in that doctrine which was taught by the Apostles first and since from hand to hand in all integrity hath bene by the succession of faithful pastors conueighed downe vnto you and so we had both baptisme and all our other spirituall foode with you These are but wordes the euidence of the thing is to the contrary as I haue sufficiently made demonstration before Proue this indeed and we will repent vs of our departing from you most ioifully willingly wil wee ioyne with you againe I like very well your counsell that euery good Christian should fully resolue and determine to serue God and to liue and die in the Catholicke faith but then I adde that he had need well and throughlie to bee resolued what and which is that true Catholicke Faith For his direction in this behalfe how to discerne which is the right way to heauen and which not and consequentlie which is the true catholicke faith which is not you teach him that when there is any question put as touching life then the common way as Christ doeth say Mat. 7. doeth lead to perdition and the narrow to saluation but in religion it is contrary whereunto you saie Dauid alluded Psal 24. saying shew me thy waies O Lorde and teach me thy pathes by waies meaning religion and by pathes maners Where learned you this diuinity If you looke vpon Christs
nisi mittantur Howe shall they preach except they bee sent as â—t is written in the tenth to the Romanes and sent by them which haue authoritie to sende Did not Saint Paul for that purpose leaue Titus in Creete Did hee not also giue Timothie charge to laye handes too quickely on no man To these that bee thus lawefullie ordeyned and called to haue cure and charge of soules yee are bounde to giue an eare by these yee must bee ruled in matters of Religion and as obedient children to their spirituall fathers And this biddeth Saint Hierome writing to Nepotian o True and necessarie as long as the pastour is such as Paul wilde Titus to ordeine but this helpeth yours little Esto subiectus pontifici tuo quasi animae parentem suspice Bee subiect to thy Bishop and reuerence him as thy soules father The same lesson teacheth Chrysostome in an Homylie De recipiendo Seueriano where hee beginneth thus Sicuti capiti corpus cohaerere necessarium est ita ecclesiam sacerdoti principi populum As it is of necessitie that the bodie cleaue to the heade so it is likewise of necessitie that the congregation cleaue to their Priest and spirituall ruler and the people to their Prince And within a fewe wordes after hee alleadgeth for the confirmation of this matter the Apostle writing thus to the Hebrewes in the thirteenth Chapter p This rule is not general without exception For Christ hath saide take heede of false Prophets c. Obedite praepositis vestris obtemperate eis quia ipsi peruigilant pro vobis quasi pro animabus vestris rationem reddituri Obey them that haue the ouersight of you and doe as they woulde haue you for they watch for your sakes as they which shall giue accomptes for your soules This obedience doeth our Sauiour require of all men saying Qui vos audit me audit Hee that heareth you heareth mee This obedience to Christes Church hath continued thoroughout all Christendome time out of minde And if the authoritie of the learned and holie fathers ought to beare sway and preuaile as of right it ought to doe indeede Arrogantium enim hominum est maiorum suorum authoritatem aspernari se illis ingenio vel sapientia anteponere For it is the manner and property of proud arrogant persons to contemne the authority of their elders to prefer themselues before theÌ„ in wit or learning If the consent of all christian Regions should be regarded probâ—bilia saieth Aristotle in the first Chapter of the first booke of his Topickes quae videntur omnibus vel plurimis Those things are probable which all men or at the least the most part doe iudge to be so If the long continuance of time must be of importance In his enim as witnesseth S. Hilarie vpon the hundred and eighteene psalme tanquà m in coelo verbum dei permanet in quibus hoc verbum non offenditur In them doth the word of God abide among whom that worde is not offended a This is but a vaine brag that you haue these three as shall appeare I hope sufficieÌ„tly in the answer to Albines treatise For you haue not one of them in such sort as that thereupon you may conclude as you doe If these three I saie The authority of the learned Fathers The common consent of Christian Regions The long continuance of time may be a sufficient testimonie for the verity we haue the true Gospell the true sence of it b These are but shamelesse beggings of the things in question and onely your bare and therefore vaine words for none of them you shal euer proue true Our Religion is the very Christian Religion The order of Ceremonies that the Catholike Church doth vse is the right order Our fasting and praying is according to the Scriptures Our Church is the true and lawfull spouse of Christ from the which as many as seperate them selues they are no sheepe of Christes folde they are reprobate persons they are the children of Belial they are impes of hell c What then is the president of our next last fathers yea though for some hundred or more yeares such as we may not vary from The vanity of this argument see cap. 38. of my answere You knowe what order your fathers kept howe they liued and howe they beleeued You are not ignorant how you haue beene brought vp instructed and trâ—â—ned in the lawes of Christ Whosoeuer goeth about to infringe or breake any part of that d You must proue the order godly and laudable or else your assertion is false godly order of that auncient custome and laudable vsage he is an hereticke an enemy to God a murtherer to mans soule a disturber of the common wealth a subuerter of all honest discipline and therefore most vnworthy to liue among men I e This complaint hath most iust apparant ground especially amongst men of your owne faction though it cannot be denied but that euery where there is so lamentable cause thereof but yet this preiudiceth our religion which condemnes all imoiety no more then you would haue it to doe yours haue heard read and seene many things yet can I not reade beare or see any world more contaminate and prone to al kinde of vices then this our age is And howbeit afore our daies there haue beene in all times and ages men and women very vitious and monstrous in their liuing yet then vertue was vertue and vice was vice But now in our corrupt time wee haue lost the true names and vse of all things and vertue with vs is taken for vice and contrarily vice is counted for vertue They that bee studious of modesty obseruers of temperancie and louers of sobrietie they be now a daies called Pinch-pennies and such that hunger droppeth out of their noses f This is false amongst vs if by catholique you vnderstande as you should sounde and true religion If any be vertuous followers of the Catholike which is the true Religion they be called Pharisies papists The discreete man he is called an hypocrite and the small talker a foole and an ignorant person On the other side they that leade their liues in all kinde of riote they be called handsome men men of the right making and such as can tel how to keepe honest mens companie Againe the statelier that one goeth the â—igher that he looketh and the stouter and malapertlier that he speaketh be more is he praised among the worldlings for a wise man who will not â—uffer himselfe to be ouertroden and made a laughing stocke to euery rasâ—all With such vaine glorious praises be such proude Thrasoes extolled â—nd magnified of the more part and no small number are giuen to flatâ—erie and enhausing of Clawbackes that neuer could that saying of Teâ—ence be better verified then it is now Obse quium amicos veritas oâ—odium parit To holde vp mens yea and their naye in holding with
since Augustine the monkes comming into England as I haue saied and for 300 yeares after him your glorious succession must faile there are so many apparent differences for so long space at least betwixt the opinions that your pastors and doctors hold now and them that were held then Take heede therefore whiles you measure thus to vs and so seeke to disgrace them whose names we cite that the same be not measured to you againe so the necke of your visible Succession be broken to the perill of the life of your Church which draweth her breath thereby Now to come to your disgracing of our Church with the difference of opinion betwixt Luther and Zuinglius and your laying to our charge all the heresies that haue sprung vp since Luther began first to preach against you therein do you vs manifold wrong For who knoweth not that it is no strange or new thing to finde the deare seruants of God and the true members of Christs Church sometimes and in some things differing and hoatly dissenting in opinion Doe we not read Mat. 16. that one thing seemed good to Peter and the contrary seemed and was indeed good in Christs iudgement Did not Peter take one course and Paul another at Antioch Galat. 2. insomuch that Paul there rebuked Peter openly and sharpely And finde we not Act. 15. Paul and Barnabas growen to that heat of contention about the receiuing againe or refusing of Iohn Marke that they parted companies And if we leaue the Scriptures and go downe to later times and view the state of the Church euen in the purest times thereof we shall finde it no strange thing to see diuersities of opinions and therefore also hoat contentions betwixt those whom yet we will and must account the true members of the Church Betwixt Polycrates Victor the East and West Churches Irenaeus and certaine other Bishops of France and some Popes the contention about the obseruation of Easter was such Euse 5.21.22.23.24 that one side excommunicated another that diuers Synods were held to appease it and yet it cōtinued 300 yeares more And who knoweth not that there was contention betwixt Cypriā other Bishops of Africke Cornelius Stephanus Bishops of Rome for that they euē thē at Rome encroched too much as the other thought to intermeddle within the iurisdictiōs of the Bishops of Africke in receiuing condēned excōmunicated fugitiues that ran to Rome frō thence Neither was the controuersie small betwixt them about the rebaptizing of those that had beene before onely baptized by heretiques For proofe of both which points I refer you to the third and fourth Epistles of Cyprians first booke of Epistles and to the first Epistle of his second booke and to the third and fourth Chapters of Eusebius seuēth booke Basil also and the Church of Caesarea as it is well knowen were at hoat contention about Ecclesiasticall songes and ceremonies Theophilus of Alexandria and Chrysostome of Constantinople had betweene them a violent and troublesome contention and great part taking there was of both sides and that along time Cyrillus of Alexandria wrote against Theodoret in a controuersie of Catholicke religion Betwixt Miletius a Bishop of Aegypt and one Peter of Alexandria and their followers of both sides there arose and continued a long whyle to the great trouble of the Church a lamentable contention All Ecclesiasticall stories for the most part haue with griefe made report of these yea downe from Christ to the age wherein euery one of them wrote it too plainly appeares in them that there was neuer yet any one century of yeares but it hath had new contentions and those many not onely betwixt heretiques and catholickes but also euen amongst those that otherwise of both sides were to bee reputed sounde Christians Hierom and Augustine as all men will confesse were in their times worthy so to be accounted and yet it appeareth in their works that there was great diuersity of opinions and that in many things of great moment betwixt them Epiphanius Bishop of Cyprus and Chrysostome of whom I spake before were both famous Christians and yet the stories of their tymes shew that they were bitter enemies It is notoriously knowen that amongst the Bishops assembled against the Arrians at the councell of Nice Constantine by the bookes offered vnto him one against an other found that they then had amongst themselues many contentions and varieties of opinions and infinite it were to reckon vp all the examples that might easily be found to this end Indeede I reade for these and such like differences the Iewes and Heathen people mocked at the Christians and hereby sought mightily to deface them and their religion seuenth Stromat Clement Alexandrini But I neuer read that either then or since euer any sounde Christian though for this cause they tooke occasion to mourne yet that they or any of them tooke occasion to condemne either the one side or the other or both as not to be therefore at all of the Church of Christ For notwithstanding these differences they saw that they ioyned togither otherwise as brethren in holding togither the fundamentall pointes And that they whom you call Lutherans Zuinglians doe so the booke of late set forth of the Harmony of the confessions of all the Churches that hereabouts professe the Gospell doeth make it most manifest and euident And therfore for any force that this reason carieth with it this their differēce which is in effect only about the maner of the presēce of Christ in the Sacramēt they both may be mēbers of the true anciēt Catholick Church as wel as these other whō I haue named Another wronge that herein they offer vs is this that beeing themselues at variance amongst themselues and hauing had many and great contentions and yet hauing still some about as great a matter of religion as this that yet forgetting the beame in their owne eies like hypocrites they are so busie with the moate in ours For who so readeth the histories of their Popes writen by their owne frendes besides a number of hoat and contentious schismes troubling all Christendome for many yeares togither yea sometimes fourty years continuing betwixt their Popes Antipopes he shall finde it so common a thing for the succeeding Pope to contrary the proceedings of his predecessour as though the chiefe glorie of their papacy lay in that and therefore poore Gratian tooke a combersome worke in hand to make a concorde of such discording Canons Their religion considered it is one of the greatest controuersies that can be whither the pope or a generall councell haue the superiour authority and so must be the carier of the Churches tongue to decide and determine controuersies and yet euen in this controuersie they are so at concorde that the councell of Constance and Basil determined one way and the councels of Florence and Ferraria the other way and yet both sides hath his stout champions The Scotistes and Thomistes many an
pretend you would yeelde vnto them in this point and so spare much labour that you bestowe to get credit to your traditions vnwriten Which if you would once be brought vnto we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures haue a faire hand of you Which you espying whatsoeuer otherwise you would seeme to account of the fathers to bleare the eies of the simple in this they shall keepe their iudgement to themselues for you like it not So that this and such your like dealing with them caused one once to tell you that the fathers are vnto you as counters in the handes of him that casteth an account according to whose will and pleasure sometimes one and the selfesame counter standeth for an ob that stoode immediately before for a pound or more So with you when it pleaseth you an ancient fathers testimony is of great weight and when it pleaseth you againe 20. of their testimonies are nothing Howbeit I hope the indifferent reader by these testimonies doeth will perceiue that you wonderfully seeke to abuse Gods people when yet you would perswade them at anie time that the ancient fathers are fauourers and patrons of your vnwriten traditions And I trust this may serue to make it sufficiently appeare that in the iudgement of these ancient fathers your Andradius may be ashamed to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini coÌ„cilii That the greatest part of Catholicke Religion is left vnto the traditions of the church not writen and that your Lyndan was extreame mad or very drunke when he wrote It is most extreame madnes to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be searched out of the Apostolique letters writen with inke out of the litle booke of the new testament Panopl lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make vnwriten traditions sometime equall sometime superiour in authority to the canonical scripture that vpoÌ„ this ground that al trueth is not sufficieÌ„tly taught therein you haue learned of the Encratites Manichees and of the Montanists Valentinians and others as it appeares in them that wrote against them And yet O good God what a stir now of late this Andradius Lyndan other such your great champions haue made what cost they haue bestowed to drawe men from that estimation that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiencie of the canonicall scriptures in making large treatises and discourses to shew that the authority therof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient no not halfe sufficient for the direction of the church either for Religion or conuersation and that they are obscure hard to be vnderstoode all vpon this occasion that will they nil they they are driuen to perceaue that their opinions wherein we differ from them cannot any longer bee defended by the scriptures for al their sophistrie cunning and that therefore they see they must maintaine the credit of theÌ„ by the authority of the church her vnwriten traditions which they may say to be what they lift or that else they must be driuen to throw vs the bucklers and to run out of the field But you doe fouly deceiue your selues if you thinke in this great light that men espy not that this is a shamefull shift and which argueth that your cause is euen giuing vp the ghost that you caÌ„ hold out no longer vnles it be by preferring the authority of the church the wife before Christ the husband by giuing her your commission to sit as iudge ouer her husbands word to adde there unto and take therefrom how what seemeth good vnto her And your fault herein is the more intollerable because by the church you vnderstand alwaies your popish Synagogue that now is For euen children may see that you are very farre driuen when there is no other remedy but you must thus open your mouthes and prepare your pens to disgrace his writen word which all meÌ„ know to be his word indeed without question for the gracing countenancing in this sort of that which though you call his worde you are neuer able to proue to be so And for this who seeth not that we may iustly say of you as Tertull Apolog. 5. saied of the heathen in his time Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur diuinitas nisi homini Deus placuerit Deus non erit homo iaÌ„ Deo propitius esse debebit that is with you the godhead is esteemed of as man shall thinke good vnles God please man he shall not be God man now must be good to God Howsoeuer you are ashamed thus grosly with these prophane pagans to speake yet it is euident in that you still say write that the writen word of God is inferiour in authority to the church hath the canonical credit from thence that the sence thereof is must be whatsoeuer your Bishop of Rome for the time being doeth define determine so to be relying stil vpon vnwriten traditions bearing men in hand that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures as you doe al meÌ„ whoÌ„ your enchantmeÌ„ts haue not bewitched made blind may see that in effect you are as grosse as they of whom these words were truely writen This once we knowe to be his word which wee finde set downe in the Canonicall scriptures we are sure this was writen by the direction of Gods Spirit for the information of the Church And we cannot be ignorant but that this Spirit of God foresawe what dangerous heretiques there would bee which if they were not preuented by leauing the word of God fully in writing vnder the pretence of vnwriten traditions would bring in damnable heresies And therefore seeing it is euident vnto vs that he in these writings begaÌ„ to leaue instruction vnto vs to settle vs in the certaine trueth we know he could go thorow with it because he is God the fountain authour of all wisedome trueth are sure that he was willing because he perfectly loued the church by Christs promise by the ministry of the Apostles was to leade it into al trueth we must needes thinke it flat blasphemy to think that the writeÌ„ word of God is any way vnsufficieÌ„t for the full direction of the Church in all matters And therefore howsoeuer you please your Sects in this deuise of yours in feighting thus for the traditions of the Church thinke not to the contrarie but any man of meane iudgement will discrie both your vâ—â—â—tie and impiety therein by making this reason in his owne minde vnto himselfe The spirit of God in the writers of the Scriptures sawe it good and necessary to leaue the worde of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters writen by that is done and writen it is cleare hee tooke it in hand and to take it in hand
thing that we holde teach and preach as much as you You doe therfore but abuse your reader in going about to make him beleeue that we reiect your Bishops onely for their lewde liues whereas the thing especially that we condemne both you and them for is your Antichristian doctrine It is well that when you haue saied what you can for your line of Popes yet the consideration of the oft interruptiōs of their succession by schismes and otherwise you are glad in the ende to giue vs this note that when you talke of succession of Bishops and pastours you meane not onely them but all other Bishops and pastours of your Church in whom the succession hath beene continued whensoeuer it was interrupted in the other For hereby in effect you doe acknowledge that you meane not nor thinke it wisedome to leane too much to the successiō of them least they let your building fall Wherein I preferre you yet before Stapleton in that herein the trueth of the manifold interruptions of their succession seemeth to haue preuailed more with you then with him For he writing against Doctor Fulke of this matter of succession though hee saieth hee will not holde succession in the same places and sees to haue continued generally yet in this particuler line of Popes onely hee thinketh that safely he may You are also to be commended for acknowledging dissentions to haue beene betwixt your Popes and Antipopes themselues and in leauing them without defēce for their lewd liues ambition and negligence euen to answere for themselues For indeede as it cannot be denied but that these thinges most monstrously haue beene found in very many of them so you could not haue had any honesty in smothing of their faults Yet you go some thing to far in saying that their dissentiōs were not preiudiciall to the vnity of faith held before For how could it be that one part of the world ioyning with the Pope the rest with his Antipope or Antipopes it being an article now of your Catholique faith Boniface 8. de maioritate obed Cap. 1. vnder paine of damnation to be beleeued that al soules must submit themselues to your Pope as to the Supreame head of the Church but that these for many yeares togither banning cursing each others faction thereby the vnity of faith was not onlie troubled but maruellously broken The IX Chapter NOw seeing that we haue yeelded you a full accompt of our vocation to the ministery if we may be so bold I thinke it is no great presumption to demande the like of yours a Caluin neuer thus reasoned therefore you play the papist with him that is you bely him For euen as Caluin hath heretofore called vpon vs to haue vs proue that we are the Children of God or otherwise he would absolutelie affirme that God cannot be called the authour of our vocation to the ministery We say likewise that if you doe not shew the like of yours you shal giue vs leaue although it be against your willes to saie that yours commeth not from God but from the procurement of his aduersarie Tertullian b Wee know hee spoke against such heretiques as you Papists bee who as you know aboue 1200 yeares agone speaking against such as you are in his booke de praescrip haeret doeth write these words Edant origines Ecclesiarum suarum euoluent ordinem Episcoporum suorum per successiones abinitio decurrētem Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae cursus suos deferunt sicut Romanorum Clementem Episcopum à Petro ordinatum id proinde vtique coeteri exhibeant quos ab Apostolis in Episcopalibus constitutos Apostolico semine radices habeant c Here either is ignorance or wilfull corruptiō of this authours meaning dris◠You see well by these wordes how that Tertullian doeth continue with the succession of the Pastours the which he doeth affirme to be necessarie saying that you and such as you are ought not to be receiued to the ministerie of the Church nor to teach the people contrary to the ecclesiatical order except that you shew the antiquitie of your table And it is necessary saieth he that you reckon your Pastours and Bishops by order how they haue succeeded one after another for this is the waie that the Churches doe maintaine their right The saied Tertulliā doth ground his similitude vpon the custome of the Ciuil gouernance For when that these that are Princes or Lords doe suruaie their lands the subiects are bound to shew what landes they holde of them setting it all forth by accompt shewing by what tenure they hold their copie and whether it be demean◠or free holde comming by inheritance or bought they ought likewise to name him that had it before and by their owne title to ouerthrowe all other persons that maie make claime vnto it a Not yet nor euer will you be able According to this patterne and order we haue giuen you accompt of our inheritāce although we were not bound to it setting before your eies the similitude of Salomon by whom our Sauiour Iesus Christ is represented That same Salomon doeth giue the sheepe that runnes astraie counsaile to set his Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the Shepheards to follow their flocke vntill he come to the place where Christ was nailed on the Crosse at noon daies The which counsell as the most certaine according to Tertullian his opinion we doe follow thinking it sufficient to keepe vs firmely in the right and ancient Catholicke faith For we that are the sheep of Christ doe follow as touching our religion the steppes that our fathers led before vs and as it were going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob Gen. 28. b Whatsoeuer you meane you can neuer deduce your religion so high for it hath beene a patching together long euen till of very late daies we mount by degree and degree I meane from yeare to yeare from age to age vntill that we come to S. Saturim S. Denice S. Marcial S Gratian which were those that did first teach the Catholicke faith in Tholose in Paris and to those of Guyenna and Lorayne and so consequently to all the rest of the Saintes that first did teach the Catholicke faith through all Christendome whom wee doe call in iudgement before God to defende that faith which they haue giuen vs from hand to hand they maie cal vpon the Apostles which sent them the Apostles maie direct themselues to Christ who by the mouth of his most louing Apostle doeth command vs to continue in that that was taught vs at the beginning 1. Iohn 2. And so wee shall continue and rest with the Father the Sonne and the holie Ghost And if any bodie doeth come to teach vs anie other doctrine then that which hath bene taught vs at the beginning I doe not saie c No take heede of that for the booke of the Scriptures is your bane writen in booke but
but especially their doctrine hath bene directly contrary in a multitude of most material points of Christian religion to the doctrine taught vs in the Scripture as I shew in diuers places of this booke wee haue as we are counselled Apocal. 18. seperated our selues froÌ„ you and them least by holding society with you in these your sinnes we should in the iustice of God haue beene driuen also in the end to bee partakers with you in your plagues And therefore to conclude this chapter though you bragge that you haue two things to quiet your consciences withal that you beleeue a doctrine that your pastours the vniuersal Church haue taught you 1500. years and that their ill liues cannot hurt you yet in deede and trueth you haue neither of both for your ill liues being ioyned with ill doctrine hath bereaued you of both so you haue had nether the vniuersal Church of Christ but a particuler Synagogue of your own nor any sound or good pastour either for life or religion these 600 or 700 yeares to teach you your faith The X. Chapter NOw to turne vnto the taking of your accompts maie it please you to shew vs how you haue followed the steps of the flocke of Christ according to the counsel that we gaue to his reasonable sheepe as we haue saied before who hath taught you the way that you doe follow what doctours were your first tutors who hath taught you that the precious body of our Sauiour is not really in the Sacrament of the Altar who hath taught the doctrine or if it be not griefe vnto you heresie which you would haue vs to receiue as a Gospell I know before hand that you will alleadge me Iesus Christ and his holie Apostles whose steppes you doe professe to follow preaching euery where that there is no difference betweene your Church or to say trueth Synagogue the church of the Apostles But I pray let me vnderstand by what means you can ioine your selues vnto the Church of the Apostles seing that a This is an impudent vntruth you condemne cut off all the Christians that haue beene are betweene you them For to verifie this I will alleage no other but your owne workes for Caluin in his Institutions at the Treatise of the Supper of the Lord speaking of the oblation of the bodie of our Sauiour Christ as it was offered in olde time he doeth write punctuallie these wordes Caluinus in suâ institutione traditâ de Coenâ Domini I finde saieth he that those of old time haue changed this fashion otherwise then the Institution of our Sauiour did require seeing that their supper did represeÌ„t a certaine spectacle of a strange inuention or at the least of a new maner There is nothing more sure vnto the faithful theÌ„ for theÌ„ to holde themselues vnto the pure ordinance of the Lord by whoÌ„ it was called a supper to the ende that onely his authority may be our rule Yet it is true that when I consider their good meaning and that their intent was neuer to derogate froÌ„ the onely sacrifice of Christ I dare not condeÌ„ne theÌ„ of folly and yet I thinke that one cannot excuse theÌ„ that they haue not somewhat failed in the exteriour forme for they haue followed more the Ceremonies of the Iews theÌ„ the order of Iesus Christ did permit And this is the point in which they ought to be resisted for they haue conformed to much vnto the old TestameÌ„t not contenting theÌ„selues with the simple institution of Christ they haue to much inclined themselues vnto the shadowed Ceremonies of the Iewes law These are Caluins words The Reader may by them see well how this noble Reformer of the Gospel doeth correct al ages and Churches bee they of Martyrs CoÌ„fessours Doctours Interpreters Preachers or any others from the Apostles time vnto our age yet doeth he not denie but that hauing some regard of their simple ignoraÌ„ce he is content to be so good to theÌ„ as for this time not to condemne their errour or impietie because that which they did was with a good intent but yet fearing that the bearing them to much fauour would trouble his conscience he giueth sentence against them saying that a Yet this proueâ—h not that for the which you alleadged him they ought to be resisted because they were not content with the onely institution of Christ but rather that in this case they haue followed the shadowes of the Iewes Now for my part I thinke Caluin his fellowes so scrupulous that they would not ioine themselues vnto persons that are spotted with Iewish Ceremonies b Are you not ashamed thus to bely him is it not euidâ—nt in his words that hee speaketh but onely of some in olde time And because that all maner of people how wise soeuer they were from the Apostles time vntill our daies haue fallen into this errour he doeth counsel my masters his deformed followers according to his sentence to follow none of them at al but only the pure word of the Lord preached by Iesus Christ and by his aboue mentioned Apostles The X. Chapter IN that by the Scriptures we are able to iustifie our doctrine and therfore diuerse times haue called vpon you to come to that trial and yet cannot by any means bring you vnto it that we are sure that that doctrine therein warranted hath alwaies by God by the meanes he hath appointed for that purpose beene preserued and continued in his Church You returning now againe to take accounts of vs how we haue followed the flocke of Christs sheep that weÌ„t before vs fed by the tents of his shepheards are answered And yet for your better and more plaine satisfying who hath taught vs the way that we follow who were the Doctours that were ouâ— first tutors we answere you that Christ his Apostles EuaÌ„gelists in the new Testament were our first tutors since them in the principal points of our religion the aucient Fathers whose names and monumeÌ„ts are knowen vnto the Church that liued for 1000. years after Christ those that I named vnto you before in my answer to your 4 Chapter But particulerly you would know of vs who hath taught vs to deny the reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament of the altar Here I suppose you meane by real presence that real presence which is in this case now taught and receiued in your Church vnder the formes of bread and wine to the mouthes of al receiuers be they faithful or faithlesse for otherwise none of vs doe deny a true and most certaine presence of Christ to the faith of the right receiuer This theÌ„ being your meaning we do not onely as you suppose answere you that we haue learned of Christ his Apostles to deny it but also of al the ancieÌ„t writers of credit accouÌ„t in the Church for 700 or 800 years togither since we haue bene coÌ„tinued in the same
of his trueth out of his written word to call you from this newe found pretended religion of yours to the ancient and true catholicke faith which we haue learned out of the scriptures and of alsound antiquity you not onely burst out into this vaine and monstrously false brags of the antiquity of yours and nouelty of ours but also knowing in your own consciences that your folly therein wil soone be descried you cal then for miracles to confirme and warrant this our commission by which you would faine proue to be as necessarie for vs in this case as it was for Moses in his time thereby to confirme his Wherunto I say as vpon the like occasion S. Augustine said in his time de ciuitate Dei l. 22. c. 8. Whosoeuer yet seeketh after miracles that so he may beleeue he himselfe is a mōstrous miracle who the world beleeuing yet beleeues not For if our doctrine be the same that the Apostles taught as we are alwaies ready and by GODS grace able to proue it to be by the vndoubted woord of God then their miracles are so many seales of this our doctrine and so it beeing thereby sufficiently confirmed already by miracles needles is it to require any further confirmation thereof now by new miracles againe But you seeme to take it for granted that we stand either very much or altogither vpon the extraordinarines of our vocation and therfore supposing that such a vocation must alwaies be confirmed by miracles you call for them the rather thus earnestly at our hands Concerning which point I haue tolde you already that though in such ruins of the church as you had brought it vnto it bee no strange thing with God to stir vp men extraordinarily to seeke the reformation thereof as he did many of the Prophets yet neither the first ministers which in these later daies he hath vsed to this end amongst vs nor those that he hath vsed since to go on with that which the others began rely onely vpon an extraordinary calling for as I haue shewed both the one and the other haue had outward ordinary calling Besides you must vnderstand that a man may haue an extraordinary calling as had Nahū Abdia diuers other of the prophets who yet you cannot shew euer wrought any miracles to confirme their calling withal And to vse Chrysostomes words which he vsed against such as you in that commentary vpon Matth. Hom. 47. which you father vpon him what miracle wrought Iohn Baptist which instructed so many and great Cities For the Euangelist saieth he wrought none Iohn 10. And yet who therefore may lawfully say that he had no lawfull vocation or good commission Againe you know by that which is writen Deut. 13. 2. Thes 2. and elswhere that false prophets yea Antichrist himselfe may and shal seeke to seduce men and to draw men from God by miracles therefore there God forwarneth his people thereof that if notwithstanding they suffer themselues the rather to be peruerted thereby they may be voide of al excuse Wherefore seeing there haue bene sundry true prophets extraordinarily called that yet haue wrought no miracles and also many false prophets that haue wrought them and may doe agayne to what purpose should you thus call for miracles as though they straight might lawfully be refused that worke them not and they safely alwayes followed that doe them Howsoeuer you seeme to pretend that if we should worke miracles you would beleeue vs yet certayne it is that if we should worke neuer so many you would as little for all that beleeue vs as the blinde and superstitious Iewes beleeued Christ and his Apostles for all the myracles wrought by them but this is onely a shift of yours as long as you may to dazell the eyes of the simple For questionles if myracles would serue the turne beside sundry miracles indeede which the stories doe testifie haue beene wrought by God in the protection and propagation of the religiō which we now professe euē this is a miracle of miracles that Luther lyuing in such a time as he did should doe as he did to so great effect wtout miracle yet in the end maugre al his enemies which were many mighty to die quietly as he did in his bed So that al these things considered it appeareth I hope sufficiētly to the indifferent reader that you haue no such aduantage against vs for miracles and you pretend But because your obiectiō in this behalfe is so egerly prosecuted by you I wil not refuse to follow you frō step to step to yeeld you a more particuler āswer to whatsoeuer you haue sayed in this matter First therefore whereas you would insinuate to your reader that we doe wrong in comparing the misery that the poor people were in vnder your Popes to the misery that the people of Israel were in in Aegipt vnder Pharao their deliuerāce frō the Romish yoke to the deliuerāce of that people frō the bōdage of Aegypt we graūt you we make that comparison sometimes we are sure that therein there is offred no wrong at al vnto you For both in vniuersality continuannce of time and extremity both to soule bodie the slauery vnder your proud antichristian Popes hath exceeded theirs vnder Pharao in Aegypt and consequently the deliuerance of the people from that of yours must needes beeing as it is both more spiritual and general then that of theirs was much exceed that of theirs But that therefore it is as necessary that wee should anew work miracles to confirme our vocation to doe this as it was for Moses to confirme his calling to doe the other thereby therin you are both deceiued seeke also to deceiue others For Moses by God was shewed that he should so confirme his and so are not we that we shal or ought so to confirme ours and his calling thereunto was not onely extraordinary whereas ours in great part at least as I haue shewed hath bene to this ordinary but also the thing it selfe and the means to bring it to passe both in the eies of Pharao al others were strange miraculous wheras in this our case in delyuering mē frō your antichristiā seruitude bringing thē to the liberty freedome purchased for thē by the bloud of Christ by the preaching of the worde of God sincerely ministring his sacraments accordingly both are wōted ordinary For what is more ordinary with God then to bring mē frō error to trueth that by these means in his church The thing that Moses was sent to doe was a new strange thing for a man of his quality wtout force of war weapons to deliuer so great gainful a people out of the hands of such an hard hearted tyrāt it is wōderful therfore it was likewise necessary that the means that he should effect that by especially should be miracles Finally there was no certainer way for Moses hauing to
haÌ„ging in S. Markâ— church at Venice sheweth that Pope AlexaÌ„der the 3. himselfe treading vpon the necke of the Emperour Fridericke the 1. caused thâ—se words of the Psalm Thou shalt walke vpoÌ„ the Adder tread the Cockatrise vnder thy feete which are properly to be vnderstoâ—â— of Christ to be proclaimed as verified of that action of his whereby appeareth that the Pope himselfe hath gone as farre as his flatterers That of Paul by him vnderstood of those that follow the directioÌ„ of the old maÌ„ and are led in their doings by the flesh They that are in the flesh caÌ„not please God Rom. 8. Siricius a Pope also interpreteth of theÌ„ that liue in the estate of mariage A Bishop must be the husbaÌ„d of one wife saieth Paul 1. Tim. 3. that is by their interpretatioÌ„ of one benefice and so his house and children that he must well order and gouerne there also spokeÌ„ of be his parish and parishioners Who so would vouchsafe the reading of your 2. Nicene councell he should there finde store of such interpretatioÌ„s for the maintenaÌ„ce of images so ridiculously alleadged as euer were any And how is it possible that the Church of Rome holding those principles that she doeth but that you must needes be as violent wresters and rackers of the Scriptures as euer were For both Cusan Epist 2.3.7 Hosius de expresso Dei verbo in his triple Dialogue doe teach that the scriptures must alwaies be interpreted according to the practise of the Church so that how oft soeuer that change the sence of the scripture must change also For still the sence thereof must be fitted to the time and in no case it may be thought to retaine a sence contrary to the practise of the Church And now you are fully come to this whatsoeuer at any time you talke either of Scriptures doctours or councels your Pope for the time being hath full power and authority to interprete all as one hauing authoritie so to doe for his owne sence So that in deede and trueth neither Scriptures doctours nor councels how plaine soeuer their wordes bee to contrarie the doings of your Church shall cary awaie any sence to ouerwharte you at all but will they nill they they shal be caused by your Pope to speake on your side And therefore these thinges considered you are the men and not wee that take the precious ornaments from Epiphanius picture of a king that you speake of in your twenty three Chapter and decke the image of a dogge or of a foxe therewith that is according to your owne application which take the wordes of the Scripture and by wresting of them make them serue to countenance your heresies For heresies wee holde none â—â—ither doe wee alleadge the Scriptures but in his true sence 〈◊〉 by these rules before mentioned we are alwaies readie to proue â—nd therefore for all your saying to the contrarie the Scripture as it is alleadged by vs shall proue euen that word of God that shall iudge you and condemne you if you repent not the sence that you force vpon it shall proue but the deuise of man false doctrine yea your whole Religion is but a renuing of olde heresies For with the Ebionits you will not be iustified by faith onely Euseb lib. 3. ca. 24. but also by your owne workes inhereÌ„t righteousnes as the Catharists haue taught you Isidor Etymolog lib. 8. cap. de haeresibus Of the Manichees you haue learned your ministring in one kinde Leo serm 4. de Quadragesimâ Marcus that heretique who by his inuocatioÌ„s made his followers beleeue that in the Eucharist he turned the wine into bloud hath beene your first schoolemaster for your doctrine of traÌ„substantiation Epip haeres 34. And your multitude of images your worshipping of them the Carpocratians haue taught you as to appeares Iren. lib. 1. cap. 23. 24. when you commit these idolatries you haue learned to excuse your selues to torment your selues and to light candels at noone daies of the ancient idolaters LactaÌ„tus lib. 2. cap. 2. lib. 1. cap. 21 6. cap. 2. As the Messalians restrained the force of baptisme to former sinnes witnesse Theodoret diuin decret cap. de baptismo so doe you As Montanus taught of purgatory oblations and praiers for the dead and limbus patrum Tertullian de coronâ militis euen so doe you As the Collyridians sacrificed vnto the Virgin Mary and worshipped her Epiphan haeres 79 so doe you As the Angelists and Caians gaue diuine honour to the Angels Epiphan haeres 38 so doe you As Montanus and the Manichees deuised lawes for superstitious fasting Euseb lib. 5. cap. 16. Aug. de moribus Manicheorum lib. 2. cap. 13 so doe you As the Tatians Encratites and Manichees were iniurious enemies to Matrimony crying out that it was a carnal life therefore forbad it to their elect and to them that would be perfect amongst them August Epist 47 likewise doe you And as the Pelagians denyed that to be sin which ariseth not from reason and wil August contra Iulianum lib. 3. cap. 5 so doe you for the very same reasons deny concupiscence of it selfe without consent thereunto to be sinne as there further it appears they ascribed to the natural powers strenght to doe spirituall things and affirmed that a man is to be saued for and by keeping the law so doe you Of the Valentâ—nians also you learned to haue in such price as you haue the signâ—â—f the Crosse and to abuse places of Scripture for it as God forbiâ— that I should reioice in any thing but in the Crosse of Christ Irenâ—us lib. 1. cap. 1. Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 2. haeres 31. Of the Heracleoâ—nites you learned your extreame vnction and other ceremonies you vse to the dead Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres 36. Of the Macionites Pepusians Aug ad Quod. cap. 27 you learned to giue women leaue to baptise Epiphan haeres 42. Of the Hemerobaptistes and of the Ossenes you learned your holy water holie salte holie oile and holy bread Epiphan lib. 1 Tom. 1. cap. 17. 19. And of the same Ossenes you haue learned also your superstition about reliques and to pray in an vnknowen tongue as Elcai their great Pope taught them Epiphan haeres 19. Thus if a man in reading Augustine Irenaeus and Ephiphanius and others that haue laboured in confuting the ancient heretiques would diligently marke what heresies and fonde things they held and vsed he should by and by by comparing their doings opinions with yours finde that you haue reuiued very many of their rotten and condemned heresies and that you haue learned most of your Ceremonies of them And yet as though you of all men were freest and furthest from all heresie still you crie out he retiques heretiques But it is but policy that you haue learned of some theeues who the better in an hew cry to escape ride crying out of theeues theeues But for all
the like vnto the aboue named heretickes which haue fortified their caÌ„pe with as manie places more then you doe alleage Now if that notwithstaÌ„ding the scriptures by theÌ„ alleaged you doe condemne theÌ„ as hereticks because that they did interpret theÌ„ coÌ„trary to that that the l Vnderstanding by the Church the true Church that is one of our reasons but that is not al why we reiect them and their maner of alleaging them principally we reiect them because by the plaine euidence of the scriptures we can confute â—hem And to despise the iudgement of the popish Church is not to despise the iudgement of the true Church of Christ church doeth teach to saie trueth you can imagin no other excuse to what purpose doe you take vpon you the names of Catholickes seeing that you commit the like offence The diuersities of those olde heresies grounded vpon the Scriptures ill interpreted doe teach vs that vvee shoulde not permit the noise of your reformed Gospell that soundeth so shrill to make vs reele froÌ„ a Yours is but ancient as Ieroboams religion was when the 10 tribes were brought into captiuity our ancient faith without going so farre to seeke that that we haue so neere at haÌ„d Let vs talke of the present time how manie coÌ„trarie sects doth there raigne How manie heads of heresies b With variety of names you need lesly increase the number as your forfathers were woont to doe with those whoÌ„ they first called Waldenses Some are Lutherans some Anabaptists some PuritaÌ„s some ProtestaÌ„ts some PrecisiaÌ„s all these doe fortifie their caÌ„pes with Scriptures to fight one against another The ZuingliaÌ„s the Caluinists on the other side doe write that al these doe erre and they proue it by Scripture The Anabaptists laugh at al the rest The Prophets Celestes which is another sect doe no lesse grounding themselues vpon their reuelations because that Dauid saieth * Psalm 84. Heare what the Lorde doeth speake in me The Deists or Trinitaries which are come last of al crie out and saie that all they are heretickes and they proue it by the olde and new Testament I praie now tell me which of al these shall I receiue seeing that they doe all alleage the holie Scriptures If we receiue some and not all those that are refused will saie that wee offer them wrong for they haue c This is but your saying still for you shall neuer be able to proue this their shoppes stored with as good stuffe of the scriptures and aswell alleadged as all the rest If we receiue them all it will be a renewing of the olde confusion of Babylon through the neglecting of so manie Gospels If you saie that we ought to follow those that conforme themselues most vnto the pure vvord of God that will come to one ende for if I doe demaunde of you how we shall know which doe conforme themselues most vnto the trueth d Indeade we say and we are not ashamed of it that onely by the assistance direction of the holy Ghost in trying their interpretations by the scriptures it must be discerned who alleâ—geth them best you answere me that it must be done by the grace of the holie Ghost sent by the Lord if with a true heart he is inuocated of the faithful Seeing you know so wel the way how to agree togither how coÌ„meth it to passe that you haue not vsed it this fortie or fiftie yeares which are the precincts of the time since your ancient Church began seeing that you haue assembled so manie times togither e We haue done so and Gods name be praised for it so far we haue obtained our praier that we are able by the light of Gods spirit to discerne who amongst all these and all others amongst whom you papistes are the principall alleages them best with those we holde peace for the rest we morne yet comforting of our selues with this that necessary it is for the trial of the Lords that there be such sects why haue yee not praied vnto the Lorde to sende the spirit of trueth to make peace amongst his Apostles I thinke that you are not so vnshamefast that you will denie the quarels and debates that haue risen among you f The stirre betwixt these two though it hath bene more then should bee yet neither so much hath it bene at least for the followers of Caluin as you woulde seeme nor nothing comparable to the brawlings and furious contentions amongst your selues often I doe not say in light words but in great battailes in railing processes in horrible excoÌ„munications sent from the Churches of the Lutherans vnto the Caluinists froÌ„ the Caluinists vnto the Lutherans as I haue set forth at large in the booke that I made of the Sacrament therefore yee are greatly ouerseene that ye haue not inuocated the spirit of the Lorde as Caluin hath taught you in his Catechisme to the end that you may come to some accorde The XXVII Chapter FIrst here you aske vs whither it be good to beleeue al maner of people that alleage scripture We answere you no but with S. Ioh. 1. Epist 4. We wish all men to trie the spirits whither they be of God or no before they beleeue theÌ„ And we adde further with Iohn in the same place Hereby shall yee knowe the spirit of God Euery spirit that confesseth that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God and that spirit which confesseth not that is not of God but is the spirit of Antichrist By which wordes wee answere fullie your second demaunde also and giue you a proofe that our spirit is of God and yet neither these heretiques which you name nor yours any better then that spirit of Antichrist which Iohn speaketh of For I am sure you must needs graunt mee if you consider these wordes of Saint Iohn well that hee speaketh here onelie of confessing soundlie and rightly that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh which wee doe as wee are able to proue by the Scriptures truelie alleadged and neither they nor you are able to proue that and therefore this is a plaine proofe that ours is of God and neither yours nor theirs can be They confesse him not aright to be come in the flesh in that one way or other they erred not onelie in the doctrine of his office but also held some heresie or other against the trueth of his person And you confesse him not aright to be come in the flesh because not onely with some of the ancieÌ„t heretiques as namelie the Marcionites for the loue you haue to your fiction of TraÌ„substaÌ„tiation you hold him to haue such flesh as shall for your peeuish pleasures be without all the naturall properties of humane flesh and so a very phantasme and not flesh indeed but also most craftily you take from him that glorious office that the Scripture giueth him and translate it to what you list
must needes be graunted you that your church is aswell the church of Christ as that that was in their times you make our fault and theirs one because we contrary yours which is the church falsely so named whereas they in theirs coÌ„traried the churches doctrine truely so tearmed You must proue therefore your Church now and that which was 1000. yeares ago at least to be al one in doctrine which you can neuer doe before you can proue their fault and ours to be all one Howsoeuer this vse yet you will make of the variety of opinions and the alleadging of the Scriptures by these heretiques that you wil not remooue from your Religion or faith which falsely you call ancient for all the shrill noise of our Gospell Whereunto this onely I reply that if now the diuersity betwixt their dealing and ours herein shewed you as it is you that notwithstanding persist in this minde vpon this ground you therein shall shew your selues to bee ledde rather by will then witte or any sound wisedome But at last you giue ouer wandring any longer so farre abroad for examples to this purpose and you will talke you say but of the sectes and heads of heresies of this present time who all likewise alleadge scripture and condemne one another And therefore hauing reckoned vp Lutherans Anabaptistes Puritanes Protestantes Precisians Zwinglians Caluinistes Caelestes Deistes Triniâ—â—ries you would knowe of vs which of these you should receiue And to make your question the harder to answere you adde saying If we receiue some and not all they that are refused will thinke they haue wrong offered theÌ„ For they haue as good store of scripture well alleadged as the rest and if all should for this cause be receiued then thereupon would followe a Babylonicall confusion This obiection taken froÌ„ the variety of sects and opinions in these daies I haue so answered in answering to your fourth chapter that thereby I haue made it most cleare that though you had as great ground for it as you pretend yet all that variety neither can nor ought to preiudice any thing our Religion And therefore vnto that answere of mine hereunto I must referre the reader both now and hereafter whensoeuer it commeth for his satisfaction yet this here I would haue him further to note that to make the number seeme the greater you haue here reckoned vp them as different Sectes heades of heresies amongst whom either there is full agreement as betwixt them whom you call Caluinists and Zwinglians or but such difference as notwithstanding they agree in the substantiallest and fundamentall points of Religion as the Lutherans Caluinists the Protestants they whom you tearme Puritanes Which differences if they be sufficient with you to make different Sects seuerall heades of heresies then as many seuerall orders as there be amongst you of your religious men and women and as many seuerall sortes of schoolemen as you haue differing amongst themselues in questions of diuinitie so manie seuerall Sectes there are amongst you all which would rise to a marueilous long beadrole And indeede he that considereth well these thinges though hee shall finde you like Sampsons foxes tied togither by the tailes with the thong of the Popes supremacie yet otherwise hee shall and may most easily finde that you are farre more iustly to bee charged to nourish within your Synagogue of Rome multitudes of sects and heades of heresies then we both for that you exceede infinitly in number and matters and for that whereas some of ours to our griefe vnwillingly are tearmed by our enimies Lutherans Caluinists Zwinglians c. you delight and take pleasure in your distinct titles of diuision as to bee called Dominicans FraÌ„ciscans Iesuites c. Secondly there are some of these which you here name as Caelestes Deistes Trinitaries and the Sect of the family of loue wherewith elswhere some of you charge vs who are far liker you then vs and haue rather sprung vp amongst you and of you theÌ„ of vs. And this is certaine that all these our men haue beene more painefull to detect and confute them then euer were yours Our answere therefore to your demande hereupon builded is this though all these alleadge scripture yet neither alleadge they it aswell as we neither is there any remedy but that you must and ought to receaue them for the true meÌ„bers of the Catholique church howsoeuer others alleadge them that alleadge them best soundliest But then you will say you are as farre of as you were in the beginning seeing euery one will staÌ„d vpon this that he and his side alleadge them best and therefore once againe you will reply say that to determine who doeth best alleadge them is a thing so harde that fewe shall be able to finde it out and therefore in the ende you shall be driuen to thinke it necessary that the Pope should be iudge in this case otherwise men shall neuer be at a certainty whom to follow Hereunto I answere that the harder the matter is the more paines men ought to take thereabout seeing to know and finde the trueth standeth them so much vpon secondly I say with S. Paul that when you and all the world haue done what you can there must be heresies amongst meÌ„ that they which are approued amongst theÌ„ may be knowen 1. Cor. 11. Thirdly how hard soeuer it seeme yet by searching of the scriptures examining the allegations interpretatioÌ„s of them by the rules of right interpreting which I before set downe in humility of spirit God will leade theÌ„ that be his how simple soeuer at one time or other by the direction of his spirit to finde out who they be that soundliest haÌ„dle them For he hath promised If we seeke we shall finde and if we knocke it shal be opened vnto vs. Mat. 7.7 And as for the iudgement of the Pope or any one certaine maÌ„ or coÌ„pany of meÌ„ because the Lord in his wisedome foresawe what was in maÌ„ so how prone to erre in this case he hath not appointed vs any such to run vnto for the determining of this matter And therfore it is intollerable presumption for any such to take vpon theÌ„ that the Lord hath made theÌ„ such iudges in this case that they cannot erre The ministry of men conference with men reading of meÌ„s labours vpon matters of Religion such other good helps with an earnest and huÌ„ble inuocation of the name of God for the directioÌ„ of his spirit are to be vsed carefully of euery man as he may in this case But wheÌ„ all commeth to all we see no other but that it is the will pleasure of our God rather to leaue vs thus to be exercised in scearching the scriptures in trauelling by these meanes to finde out the truth to settle our selues therein theÌ„ to send vs for full resolutioÌ„ to any one man or meÌ„ least so we should after be deceiued through the errour
of those men then we shall be this other way Seeing therefore Christ tooke this way himselfe both with the deuil himselfe with his chaplaines both to confute their errours erroneous interpretations to confirme the trueth by searching the scriptures and neither he nor his Apostles sent vs either by word or their example to the high Priests then or vnto any other for resolutioÌ„ of the church or trueth this way as the best only way we thinke all ChristiaÌ„s bound to take And in so doing let not any man despaire but that through the goodnes of God he shal be inabled to trie the spirits to discerne who amongst all other alleadge the scriptures soundliest For we see it is the fashion of our God to reueile his trueth and the misteries thereof to those that be his how simple soeuer when he doeth conceale hide them from the great men of the world Mat. 11.1 Cor. 1. But you say If this may and must be atteined by the grace of the holy ghost obteined of the lord by faithfull inuocatioÌ„ of his name how chanceth it that since Luther for no ancienter you say though it be neuer so false our ReligioÌ„ is you haue not obteined that holy ghost to ende your hoat contentions and debates amoÌ„gst your selues that so you might be at vnity yet amoÌ„gst your selues This is spoken as though it must needes follow that either we haue not faithfully praied vnto God for his spirit or els if we haue that then of necessity there neither could be nor would be any difference of opinions and contentions at all amongst vs. If you be of this mind then the manifold differences schismes sects varieties of opinions that haue beene and yet are in your church as I haue noted cap. 4. argueth in your Logicke that your church neuer yet praied faithfully and effectually for the holy ghost But indeede your argumeÌ„t is naught For it appeareth Ioh. 17. that Christ himselfe praied for vnity amongst his Apostles and all that should beleeue their doctrine no doubt of it he was heard in that he praied for Heb. 5.7 and obteined for his heaueÌ„ly father would deny him nothing and yet you haue heard cap 4. after this there were varieties of opinions and hoate contentions betwixt some of them that doubtles of both parts were within the compasse of Christes praier And therefore that praier of Christ and the prayers of his seruants made to that ende are to be vnderstoode to take place and to be effectuall in that there is so much vnity amongst the true members of the Church atteined thereby as is sufficient to holde them togither in the communion of saints which is if they ioyne togither in holding the foundation and fundamentall points of Religion though otherwise there be differences and hâ—at contentions sometimes amongst them And it may not be thought as you seeme to take it that such prayers either are not effectually made or els there must followe thereupon simply an vniuersall accorde in all things For then Christes prayer was not effectuall in that after Paul and Barnabas were at aâ—arre Act. 15. c. That vnity that you speake of the Church may striue for here but she is not to make her account to atteine vnto it before she come in heauen and bee maried to her husband there And so much vnity there is betwixt vs and those whom we count members of Christes Church with vs as that though there be some variety of opinions and therefore also contention but too much yet we ioyne so togither here in the foundation and other most principal points of our Religion that we doubt not but the Lord hath heard our praiers and graunted vs the spirit of vnity so farre forth as that one daie we hope in heauen all to ioine together in perfect vnity notwithstanding the iarres that otherwise in the meane time to trie vs withall be fouÌ„d amongst vs. You know we praie daily that Gods will may be done in earth as it is in heauen and so doe you or you are to blame and herein we hope we are heard and yet simply we neuer found nor shall as long as the world standeth the will of God so done here as it is in heauen For continually there is disobedieÌ„ce to his will here in one thing or other one way or other euen amongst the best but in that in such measure as God seeth this fit to be obteined here he granteth it we are notwithstanding to thinke our prayers effectuall Christ himselfe praied Iohn 17.15 to deliuer his church from euill and yet though that prayer was heard in that God so farre forth preserueth his church from euill as he seeth it expedient for the state thereof here we see daily that many are the troubles and euils that the poore church is encombred withall And therefore to conclude you must vnderstaÌ„d that the faithfull praiers of Gods saints are to be accounted effectuall though the thing they pray for be not obteined in full perfection here as long as so much here is obteined as the Lorde seeth to bee necessary and conuenient for the estate of his seruantes So that notwithstanding the differences amongst vs you might and would if you had the grace ioyne rather with vs in our Religion then continue in that wherein you are the professours whereof are torne a sunder with moe and greater differences then the churches that receaue ours are howsoeuer you deceiue the simple with the vizarde of vnity in that you ioyne together vnder your Pope against the trueth The XXVIII Chapter NOw to turne againe to our former purpose if it were so that of our owne free deliberation wee were minded to forsake our Catholique Religion a If you should be of no Religion whiles all of one were full of one mindâ— you must die a nullifidian I warrant you the iniurious disputations that you vse among your selues were sufficieÌ„t to make vs to suspeÌ„d our iudgemeÌ„t without leauing to any of both parties vntill that we could see more resolute in your opinioÌ„s being the bardest matter the knowing in what cuÌ„try the residence should be kept for that matter b Where wheÌ„ nay our absolute sentence iâ— as our bookes doe testifie and we proue it out of the ancient fathers that your doctrine in this point is but new a very young â—â—ng in comparison of that you would here haue it seeme You haue giueÌ„ absolute senteÌ„ce saying that the Catholique church hath erred euen froÌ„ the Apostles time vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are deade constituted in a third place called Purgatorie You should mee thinke at the least allowe a third place although it bee not that to receaue the soules of those whose consciences you haue so troubled that they know now neither what is their faith nor of what ReligioÌ„ they should be c Such vâ—setled and vnstable persons for all your foolish
gibing you knowe wel enough who hath a right vnto and that â—heir place is knowen though your purgatory had neuer beene dreamed of for when they reade Luthers workes they are Lutherans when they meete with Caluins workes they are Caluinists at the last they doe not know which side indeede is the truest being both false therefore I thinke it were good that a sequestration were made that neither God nor the Deuill might haue part of their soules till there were a farther inquiry made of such a number of sects that some good and honest arbitratour might giue iudgement as concerning which party hath most right And in the meane while I beseech god to open so the eies of the people that they may see both your errours and their owne and that through the abundance of their sinnes he permit theÌ„ not to fall into an Heathenisme vnto the which you doe seeke to drawe them with so many contrarie Gospels The XXVIII Chapter ONce againe you obiect vnto vs the contentioÌ„ betwixt the Lutherans and Caluinists which you say is cause sufficient not onely to make you stay from yeelding your consent to either of vs though otherwise you were willing to forsake your ReligioÌ„ which wrongfully you call Catholique but also so troubleth the consciences of them that reade the bookes writen on both sides that they are led one while on the one side anone againe on the other so in the end they cannot tell of what Religion to be For whose sakes though otherwise as you say we giue absolute sentence that the Catholique church hath erred eueÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles times to this present in praying to God for the soules in purgatory you thinke yet we should appoint some third place or other to receiue their soules vntill it were determined with of these belong to God and which to the deuill And then you conclude this Chapter with a solemne praier to God to open the peoples eies to see both our errours their own sinnes least for them thorowe these varieties of opinions amongst vs they bee drawen to heathenisme by Gods permission This contention in the later ende of your former Chapter you wonderfully amplifie telling vs of great battels railing processes and horrible excommunications that haue passed about this matter of the sacrameÌ„t on both sides and yet there in another booke which you haue made you say of the sacrament you signifie vnto vs that you haue bestowed more cost to amplify this matter Against this such like out-cries of these men about this matter gentle Reader thou art to arme and streÌ„gthen thy selfe with that which I haue set downe in the fourth Chapter concerning this matter whereby I haue made euident demonstration vnto thee that it is no new thing amongst the famous teachers in the Church and true members thereof to haue as great hoat contentions as euer there hath beene amongst vs in this And if that which I haue saied there were not sufficieÌ„t I could now further shew you that not only there is as great a coÌ„trouersie now and hath beene a long time amongst themselues the nature of their Religion considered as any they can charge vs with namely this whither their Pope or generall Councels haue the greater and higher authority but also I might easily againe say and say truely as they themselues know well enough that in ancient times in the Churches of Christ there were such lamentable and grieuous contentions betweene Paulinus and Flauianus Lucifer and Eusebius the Meletians and Eustathians all yet otherwise being for and in the substantialest pointes of Religion sound Christians as that with great trouble to the Church they shunned one anothers communion and that for verie many yeares togither as you may reade in Epiphanius libro 1. Tom. 2. in Theodoret lib. 1. cap. 8. c. in Socrates libro 2. cap. 33. 34. and in Zozomen libro 2. cap. 17. 18. And wee reade histor tripart libro 1. cap. 12. that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were at such hoate contention and enmity and yet they were famous Christians and Bishops both that departing one from the other the one spitefully saied to the other thou shalt neuer die Bishop and the other saied to him as vncharitably neither shalt thou get home to thy Bishopricke aliue both which their imprecations or predictions as the storie shewes came euen so to passe For Chrysostome died banished and the other before he got home to Cyprus If you would see what controuersie there was betwixt Cyprian Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome reade Augustine contra Donatistas libro 5. cap. 23. 25. and Euseb lib. 7. cap. 3. 4. And who is so ignorant that the Church stories and ancient writers ministers vnto vs but too too great store in all ages of controuersies and those also too hoatly followed euen amongst Christians of great name and fame in their times And therefore what vaine thing is it either for you or any of your fellowes in this sort still to amplifie this one controuersie about the Sacrament amongst vs as though it were sufficient cause of all or of any of these thinges which you inferre thereupon against vs. Had there beene any wisedome in them that liued in these ancient times when these contentions were that I haue spoken of here and elsewhere thereupon to haue gathered either all or any of these thinges Nay it is euident that if thereupon they had either stoode a loofe from the trueth growen Neuters or Atheists that they had beene without excuse before God For seeing to know the trueth and to be settled in it is a thing so necessary as it is the more difficult it is made by such meanes to finde it out the more thereby they that are the Lordes and haue anie grace are prouoked to labour and search to finde it and to settle themselues the stronglier in it And therefore seeing such offences haue beene and alwaies in some measure are like to bee for the exercising of the Church and triall of Gods children you and such as you that by such discourses as this leade the people to gather such lessons thereupon as to suspende their iudgement till all partes be agreed or now to bee caried this way now that way as long as the contention lasteth seeme to be disposed to teach the people to learne how to bee Atheistes If you minded to haue them settled in Religion and preserued from neutralitie the mother of Atheisme it were your partes to ioyne with vs especially in these great diuersities of opinions about Religion that be now a daies in the world to perswade them most diligently to search the Scripture and thereby to trie all spirits and their opinions whither they be of God or no yea euen so much the more for these varieties sake that so they might finde the trueth and be settled in it For they may not fainte or giue ouer thus doing for this for necessary it is that
done so likewise therein your fault is double For first in so saying you tearme the Religion for the which they whom you call Caluinists and Lutherans died false which you shall neuer be able to proue so to be and secondly in so saying you would seeme to make your Reader beleeue that amongst those whom you call Lutherans some haue died euen for the confirmation of their singular opinion wherein they differ from their brethren whom you call Caluinists and that so some haue died for the confirmation of Zuenfeldius vanities which is more also then you can proue I am fully perswaded The XXXIII Chapter SOme of your godly sect to a If you had meant to deale plainely you should haue named the man the place where any of vs do thus childishly reasoÌ„ verifie that the vocation of your ministrie doeth come of God doe set before our eies the holines of those new Christians that is to saie how they neuer sweare but yea for yea and no for no that they doe no wrong to no man that they doe neither robbe nor steale but that they are content with that that God hath sent them that they are very charitable to the poore then seeing that our sauiour doeth saie that one shall know the tree by the fruit b â—ndeede we may truely say howsoeuer some that professe our religion either through the coÌ„mon frailty of man or hypocrisie haue too too little of this fruit growing of theÌ„ that yet if they should follow the rules of our religion they should bear this sweet pleasant fruit abundaÌ„tly we ought to confesse saie they that the tree being good the fruit is good that is to saie their Religion is good seeing that by the grace of God it doeth produce such sweet pleasant fruite I answere you first to this that our sauiour doeth not euer giue generall rules but that that most commonly doeth happen as when he saieth that * Luc 6. of the abundance of the hart the mouth speaketh would you affirme by this that his meaning was vniuersally God forbid that he that is the authour of all trueth should meane so starke a lie Doe you not remember what speech he did vse to the Pharisees wheÌ„ he saied * Mat. 15. this people doe honour me with their mouthes but their hearts are farre from me you see that this sentence is contrary to the other if you doe not vnderstand it as I haue saied that is to saie that manie times a man doeth vtter that that is in his heart as a ruffian takes great pleasure to talke of quarels a proude person to talke of hautie enterprises a couetous man to talke of riches or gaines and so it is of all other sinnes But with all this a man may not affirme truely that hypocrisie doeth neuer raigne in their hearts whose mouthes are full of Gods word * Dan. 19. The Iudges of S. Susan had not they God and his lawes in their mouthes and the Deuill in their hearts * John 18. We haue a lawe saied the Iewes and Pharisees against Christ and according to this lawe giuen vs by Moses he ought to die The zeale of iustice did sound in their mouthes and hatefull enuie did dwell in their heartes And therefore you see manie times that man doeth speake contrarie to that that hee thinketh and euen so it is of the sentence of our Sauiour when he saieth that by the fruite one shall knowe the tree For manie times naturally the fruit is good although the tree be worth nothing c The heatheÌ„ Philosophers liues howsoeuer they caried a shew of the matter of holines they caÌ„not be said to be holy good indeed because their workes were without faith lacked the form of good workes as the famous liues and workes of diuerse heathen Philosophers doe witnesse of whom the holines and scrupulosity of conscience was such that I doe beleeue assuredly that at the daie of iudgement a great number of Christians which leade Painims liues will be confouÌ„ded with the example of those men that knew not God Thus of the first the fruite is good but the trees are worth nothing for their Religion was false Idolatrous applying as S. * Rom. 1. Paul doeth saie the truth of God to vnrighteousnes And as for the second the trees are good being grafted vpoÌ„ the true Catholique Religion but the fruites doe degenerate from the stocke The XXXIII Chapter IN this Chapter you saie that some of vs haue gone about to iustifie that our vocation is of God by the holines of life found amongst vs because Christ hath saied The tree is knowen by his fruit and the good tree bringeth forth good fruite Mat. 7.17 Howsoeuer thus you would perswade your reader that wee are driuen to vse these kinde of arguments taken from the shew of patience in our Martyrs and the goodnes of the liues of the professors of our religion the trueth is though sometime the goodnes of their cause considered we take comfort in their patience and the reformation that our religion hath wrought in many remembred in some sort we reioice therof also yet neuer did we build the credit of our vocation or religion vpon either of these For we know there may be hath bene great shew of patieÌ„ce in such as haue died for heresie and that religion is not to be iudged either by the badnes or shew of goodnes in the liues of them that professe it For both amongst the professours of sound Religion we know there hath alwaies beene are and will be some lewd liuers and also amongst those of a false Religion thorow the force of hypocrisy and superstition there hath beene found and may be still a marueilous great outward shew of holines and piety And therefore doe we alwaies teach our hearers readers to learne to discerne the true Religion from the false by searching the Scriptures and not by viewe of these thinges which therein may deceiue them Wherefore you might very well haue eased both your reader your selfe of all the paines you haue taken about this matter in these foure next Chapters Howbeit seing you could aforde so much needeles paines to disgrace what you could the profession of the trueth I will bee contented to take so much paines as to weigh what you haue saied and giue you such answere as you deserue for the maintenance of the credit thereof In this Chapter first you would proue by conference of this foresaied rule of Christ with this saying Luke 6. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh that it is no more generall theÌ„ that For after out of Math. 15. and other places you haue shewed that notwithstanding that saying of Christ man oftentimes speaketh otherwise then it is in his heart you conclude euen so is it many times naturally the fruite is good when the tree is naught as in the good liues of many heathen
philosophers and contrarily the trees may bee good as grafte vpon the true Catholique Religion and yet the fruites degenerate from the stocke Be it graunted that Christs meaning was no more generally to be taken in the one then in the other and that it followeth thereupon that euen as sometime a man through hypocrisie may speake well and thinke ill so a good tree may sometimes by some occasion haue some fruite not answering the goodnesse thereof intermingled with the good yet you shall neuer be able to proue but that Christes speech here is so generallie true as that alwaies a good tree bringeth forth good fruite and a bad tree bad fruite as alwaies it is true that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh at one time or other though at sometimes also and in some thinges the mouth be bridled For Christ doeth not deny but that euen of a good tree there may bee founde here and there a rotten apple a worme-eaten one or otherwise not answerable to the naturall fruite of that tree For hee knewe what imperfections there were and would bee alwaies founde in the best men neither doeth hee that saied Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh saie it would alwaies be so For he knewe how through hypocrisie oftentimes the abundance of filthie matter lying in the heart would bee dissembled It is sufficient for the verifying of these two Prouerbes generallie in that sence that Christ meant them that the good tree naturally bringeth forth good fruit and the bad bad fruit and that the abundance of the heart will make the mouth at sometimes bewray that which lieth in the heart let otherwise hypocrisie doe what it can And therefore you conclude more then your premises will beare For though it bee graunted you that the one prouerbe hath some limitations as well as the other yet it must bee onelie in maner as I haue saied Whereupon will neuer more followe that an ill tree may haue sometimes naturallie good fruite growing vpon it and a good tree bad fruite then it will euer be found false that at one time or other out of the abundance of the heart euerie mouth will speake And the examples you haue set downe are both vnfitte For neither were the workes of the heathen philosophers what shewe soeuer they had outwardly of goodnes good workes indeede nor euer will it be graunted you of any that can distinguish betwixt good and euill that a Catholique in your sence with doubtles with you is one of the Popish Religion that now is is a good tree The reason of the one is because howsoeuer the works of those philosophers had in them the matter of good workes in the cōformity they had to the outward actions commanded by the law yet they lacked the forme of good workes in that they neither proceeded from a right fountaine were done to a right ende nor in right maner and you know that forma dat esse rei the forme is that that causeth the thing to bee this or that and that it is writen whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne Romans 14 and it is impossible to please God without faith Heb. 11. which faith they were without The reasō of the other is that your religiō being naught Antichristian it selfe cannot make any man or woman a good tree but bad like it selfe for qualis causa talis effectus such as the cause is the effect will be Wherefore for any thing you haue saied as yet euery good tree will so bring forth good fruit and euerie bad tree bad fruit as that by their fruit they maie bee discerned And indeed cauill you to the contrary as much as you list this is most certaine all the difficultie is in knowing the good and bad fruit that Christ meant of and how alwaies to discerne the one from the other In my iudgement and I thinke likewise in the iudgement of euerie one that well weigheth Christes words and the circumstances thereof by the good fruit wee are to vnderstand pure religion ioined with an holie life by the bad fruit a bad religion and like life the good tree that beareth the former are onely the children of God whom he hath regenerated and iustified indeede in Christ Iesus the bad tree that beareth the later are those that remaine in their sinnes and vnder the burdē thereof not yet hauing had their eies truely opened to see the trueth nor their hearts effectually touched and taught to beleeue aright in Christ And these trees are to be discerned by sound triall and examination which of their fruites are iustified by the writē and vndoubted word of God and which not The XXXIIII Chapter IF that the sence of this prouerbe be harde for you to disgest I a◠content to staie vntill your stomacke be somewhat better assuring my selfe that you can interprete it no waie vnto your aduantage There is nothing more certaine then the good tree to beare good fruite if one doeth not make him change his owne nature but if one doe grafte vpon it some crabstocke or some other kinde of wilde fruite the tree can beare no other but crabs or wiledings euen so we Christian persons who are the trees of God planted by the pleasant fountaine of his grace and purged with the holy water of Baptisme to beare fruite at our season so that we take euer to prosper withall the dewe of his grace that planted vs I meane the faith of our sauiour Iesus Christ so long we beare good fruite as it is saied before alleadging the a The 5. you would say as before 3. of S. Iohn ill vnderstood by Iouinian he that is borne of God doeth not sinne for the generation of God doeth preserue him and the enemy of our health shall not touch him b If yo◠had lookt into the booke you should not haue found both these testimonies in one chapter for the first is in the fift this in the third And in the saied Chapter he saieth againe all men or euery man that is borne of God doeth not sinne for the seede of God is in him and he cannot sinne because be is borne of God By this it is not meant that Baptisme the which he doeth call the beeing borne c He speaketh of reall not simply of sacramentall regeneratiō of God doeth take awaie from man the power or libertie to doe euill for if he will degenerate from the grace that he hath receaued by the sacrament of regeneration and that in steede of growing graft vpon the stocke of the loue of God which is the true life that he will fructifie towards his death and destruction in this case hee is no more the sonne of God for as Christ saieth * John 8. If yee be the children of Abraham doe the workes of Abraham But as hee doeth continue and hath this good will which was taught by the Angell vnto the sheepheardes and that hee doeth continue
sinne vnto death or with their full and whole power and wil as they doe which are vnregenerated Otherwise he were contrarie vnto himselfe in that he coÌ„fesseth speaking of himselfe such as he was theÌ„ as you haue heard that if they saied they had no sin they deceiued theÌ„selues there was no trueth in theÌ„ Neither is there any thing in any of the rest of the places by you alleaged that coÌ„trarieth this my interpretation of Iohn or coÌ„firmeth yours For meÌ„ in the time wheÌ„ sinne is but thus dwelling in them so through their infirmity now then though against the wil of the spirit dursting from them yet euen theÌ„ retaine the spirit of God in theÌ„ which sheweth it selfe both in procuâ—ing that it was not committed but as it were with a piece of the wil in after so taking vp the trespasser for so doing inwardly in his conscience that he groweth to indignatioÌ„ with himselfe for yeelding so far so to a more carefulnes to take heed of sin afterwards to a firmer purpose power to excercise himselfe in good works euery day dying more more vnto sin liuing more more vnto righteousnes wherupon it commeth to passe that such are not no not euen in this time of their infirmity answerable to the description of the wise man wherwith he setteth them forth that are not capable of the good spirit of God Sap. 1. such doe yet bring forth the works of AbrahaÌ„ in their inner man at al time outwardly also vpon the recouery from the foile of the flesh from time to time But sin grace cannot dwel togither you say herein you strengthen your selfe with Ioh. 8 Sap. 1 Matth. 6.1 Cor. 10. it is true sin with his head vncrushed in his ful power streÌ„gth caÌ„not dwel in the same maÌ„ in whoÌ„ is the spirit of regeneratioÌ„ at one the selfesame time but as I haue said it may doeth or else it neuer continueth a day to an end in any one maÌ„ except the maÌ„ Christ For al else daily offeÌ„d sin but yet theÌ„ sin weakened not in his full strength dwelleth in the man in respect of the flesh that is in respect of so much of him as is not fully brought in subiection to the spirit the spirit dwelleth in him euery day preuailing more and more in respect of the other part which is renewed according to the wil of the spirit and therefore called the new man This point of diuinity though most true and certaine by these your speeches it seemeth you are not acquainted wtall but yet it seemeth strange that you which brag so much of the spirit to direct your Popes your couÌ„cels Church should coÌ„sidering the manifold great sins errors they haue fallen into set downe this doctrine that sin the spirit of God cannot dwel togither As for your place Wisdo 1 it is rightly to be vnderstood of such as are hypocrites and dissemblers and dwell in foolish and wilfull ignorance for from such the spirit of discipline flyeth but such are not the children of God that I haue described to haue in them both the new man and the old spirit flesh therefore such may as I haue saied be capable of Gods spirit and such may be the true seruants of God and doe the workes of Abraham and bee partakers of the table of the Lorde as long as sinne raigneth not in their mortall bodies howsoeuer sometimes it shew it selfe to dwell in them And this you must be driuen to confesse or else you preach the right doctrine of desperation to your selfe and all that heare you But to passe froÌ„ these pointes which I thought good thus to admonish the reader and your selfe of let vs returne to your conclusion of this Chapter wherein after you haue shewed vs that to finde your Religion to be a good tree we must not looke vpoÌ„ your rotten fruit because your Religion condemneth such fruit but vpon your doctours and great personages that haue died throughout the world in your faith and left notable monuments of hospitalls colledges and such like works behinde theÌ„ you charge vs not onely that our Religion cannot shew the like but that rather wee haue spoiled and defaced your monumeÌ„ts as your Abbies and such like and thinke to make ameÌ„ds with giuing some little now to the poore Whereunto briefly my answere is this all this cannot proue your Religion good nor ours bad vnles you can proue yours true by the scriptures and ours false For as bad fruits as these you charge vs withall may be founde in them whose Religion is good as good as these you bragge of to the outward shew may be fouÌ„d where the Religion is false and idolatrous euen by your owne doctrine in the former Chapter which answere were sufficient Howbeit for the more full and particular satisfying of the commoÌ„ reader I say further first in that you forbid vs to iudge of your Religion by the view of the rotten fruit that we haue found in some that haue professed it because your Religion condemus such fruit you must not thinke much if we prescribe the same rule to you in respect of ours for as euident it is that our Religion condeÌ„neth sinne yea euen to the least sinne as euer did yours and more too in that we condemne the first motions arising in mans minde to sinne though not consented vnto to be sinne which you deny and in that we teach the least breach of the law deserueth in it selfe damnation and you doe teach there are a number veniall sinnes euen for the littlenes thereof and therefore to be put away euen with trifling toies and deuises of your owne Secondly I say that by that your Religion be conferred with the ReligioÌ„ that most of these great personages and doctors you talke of died in and both of them be tried by the scriptures and then compared with ours it wil be founde that not halfe of them died in your faith as you imagine yea that the ancientest and best of them died in ours and therefore both they and their monuments are ours and giue greater credit vnto our religion then all the rest doe vnto yours And euen of late daies diuerse famous persons of our religion haue founded Schooles Hospitals and Colledges as well as yours What Duke Cassimer is you know and what hee hath done at Newstade and elsewhere in Germanie this way it cannot bee vnknowen Euen now also with vs in England a zealous professour of our Religion and an ancient noble Counseller Sir Walter Mildemay hath founded a noble new Colledge in Cambridge called Emanuel Colledge And since the beginning of her Maiesties raigne that now is our gracious soueraigne Ladie Queene Elizabeth notable things by her selfe and others there hath beene done to the erecting of Hospitals and common Schooles and also to the maintenance and furtherance of learning in both the Vniuersities
true word of god since the Apostles time there hath bene h I would meÌ„ would could read theÌ„ as you wish for theÌ„ I am sure they shuld find theÌ„ to be far more with vs theÌ„ with you neuer a Christian doctour in the Church for they haue all taught the contrary to your forged gospell as euery man may see that will take the paine but to looke in their workes or to read those places that are quoted by me and diuers others that haue confuted your heresies many a hundred years agone by their authorities Let them then that haue any eies beholde the hazard that yee runne into and so many others throughout the world which followe your opinion i EueÌ„ thus do you with vs If one should come to accuse an other of falsehoode and that before hee bee assured of this matter wherewith hee did seeke to atteinte the defendaunt would not one thinke his matter verie great or his knowledge verie small to run headlong into the danger of that crime which if he could not proue he should be condemned for himselfe What then shall become of you O most simple sheepe which seeke with fained arguments to condemne not one or two k These are but words feare theÌ„ not but seeing the man had nothing else he thought good belike to haue enough of them and those swelling enough but all the Christians and Catholiques that haue beene in this world since the passion of Christ the which haue refused and reproued your doctrine as hereticall haue taught vs this that we hold at this day But now to answere vnto that that was mentioned a little before that which a nuÌ„ber of your flocke haue told me when I haue conferred with theÌ„ which is that l We doe not hold that ignoraâ—ce wil excuse any that dye out of the true faith of Christ and therefore it is likely you tell but a tale the errour of our predecessours was not imputed vnto theÌ„ forasmuch as these good simple people went to worke after the grossest sort thinking to doe well and that as then they did not vnderstand well the trueth which is now brought to light through your gospell I say that in this yee are deceaued more then halfe the valewe of your Religion m You would seeme then belike that your simâ—le and ignoraÌ„t papistâ— haue all beene great and profound claâ— kes for before some of them died they had forgotten more theÌ„ euer you haue learned for all that that you knowe you haue learned it of their bookes or stollen it to saie the trueth interpreting both their workes the scriptures contrary to the trueth of their meaning And although it were so that they had al erred your coloured excuse of simplicity could auaile them nothing for the word of God would accuse them If n I am glad to heare you cite this testimony to pâ—oue that ignorance of the gospell shall not excuse any but why plead you then sometime that ignorance is the mother of deuotion the Gospel saith * 2. Corinth 4. S. Paul had bene hidden it hath beene hiddeÌ„ to those that haue perished the spirits of the which the God of this world hath blinded theÌ„ if that those vnto whom the trueth hath beene hidden haue perished wherefore doeth your excuse serue theÌ„ This being true as it is most like I meane that they haue not erred nor that you onely shal be saued they all condemned To my iudgement our auncestours with al their simplicitie did neuer erre so much as your disciples doe to follow such masters o This brag hath beene vsed so often without proofe that now it is stole and lothsome as condemne that faith that the Catholique church hath taught mainteined these 1500. yeares to mainteine those heresies that haue bene buried in hell many an hundred year agone now are called vp againe by Martin Luther Caluin his fellowes The XXXVIII Chapter THe vanity of the brag wherwith you begin againe this Chapter by that which I haue saied in answering of the former hath appeared I hope sufficieÌ„tly already but whensoeuer it shall please you or any for you to thinke that it will not bee tedious for the Reader to bring vs forth this number of Doctours confessours martyrs that you here boast of and to make it appeare indeede by their owne words or other good euidence that they were liuing dying so on your side as you here pretend I doubt not but one of vs or other will easily make it euident vnto the world that you are far greater in words and shew then you are in deedes and trueth You would haue your reader beleeue that onely to auoide tediousnes to him you haue forborne by their testimonies liuing and dying here to confirme all the rest of your doctrine and all that you doe vse at this day but alas your owne conscience telleth you that indeed not onely the tediousnes of it to your selfe but the impossibility of it altogither drew you to be glad to vse this prety shift piece of cuÌ„ning to salue your credit your causes with him CoÌ„sidering therfore what already hath beene answered to the fathers quoted by you in the former Chapter in whose euidence for those matters belike you durst be boldest what otherwise vpon sundry other occasions in answering of your booke I haue set downe out of theÌ„ directly to proue the contrary to this that you say you could proue out of theÌ„ your question with vpon the supposall of your brag here to be but a trueth you haue inferred put forth whither these doctours confessours martyrs that you talke of be in heauen or hel is childish friuolous needles For you know well enough that there is neuer a doctour confessour or Martyr of any credit and worthie so to be accounted for the Catholique Religion they taught and dyed in but though in some of them we doe not deny there might be found some inclinations towards some things now held by you that yet we holde that forasmuch as not onely they held with vs the foundation and other principall points of Christian Religion wherein you are contrary both vnto them vs but that also the Lord in his mercy towards them kept theÌ„ in the rest froÌ„ the grossenes impiety that you are therein fallen into since that they were and are ours and not yours And therefore we comfortably assure our selues that they holding the foundation and other principall points as they did though they as men builded thereupon some wood hay stubble yet the Lord souÌ„d the meanes by the fire of his spirit and affliction so to descrie the same vnto them to coÌ„sume al that vnsutable building in them ere they went hence that we neede not thorow any such scrupulositie of conscience as you imagine feare to giue our iudgement or opinion of them For wee feare not their being in hell for
wordes well you shall finde that hee counted the waie to heauen straight as well in respect of religion as life and that there is nothing more vsuall with Dauid then indifferently without any such nice distinction to vse these wordes waies and pathes both in respecte of the one and the other you might easily perceiue if you were anie thing conuersant in his Psalmes looke vpon Christs time whereunto he had an especiall eie when hee vsed these wordes and you shall finde that true religion was a thing more geyson and rare then in the worlde and had fewer followers then an holy and a vertuous life For eueÌ„ many of the Pharisees and Philosophers made great shew of that that therefore to leade vs rather to thinke that in respect of Religion then maners he had vttered those wordes immediately thereupon he addeth beware of false Prophets And as for Dauid if your argument be grounded vpon that that he placeth the word waies in the first place and pathes in the later if you marke him well you shall oftentimes finde him to inuert that order in the Psalmes And Psalme 109. because you should plainly see that he referreth waies as wel to maners as to ReligioÌ„ he saieth take from me the way of lying and teach me the way of thy statutes And considering that you cannot be ignorant that Idolatry and Paganisme in Christs time was more common then Christs Religion therefore had 10000. that tooke it for true religion in comparison of one that tooke Christs so I wonder that you euer durst thus expound Christs wordes For by your expositioÌ„ he tolde them that it was better for them to embrace paganisme then his Religion for that was the common beaten way and his was but a small bie-path Againe in Liberius his time when it was an hard matter to finde one true Catholique for an 100. Arrians insomuch that Constantine saied vnto Liberius that he alone fauoured Athanasius Theodor. Eccles Hist lib. 2. cap. 16. by your rule Liberius did well in that seeing Arrianisme to be the common waie and his ancient Religion that then was but as a bie-path wherein few walked that he yeelded his subscriptioÌ„ to Arrianisme Indeede it should seem that this Pope Liberius was of your minde so long you care not I am sure as that you may haue a Pope on your side Wel yet if you had but remembred that the Turkish religioÌ„ is at this day hath beene a long time coÌ„mon to moe then your owne religioÌ„ is or euer was it might haue staied you froÌ„ teaching meÌ„ to measure religion by the coÌ„monnes of it or multitude of followers least you should haue so persuaded them to Turcisme But it may be you had rather haue it so seeing in coÌ„parisoÌ„ therof ours is but a narrow path wherein few doe walke then that they should follow vs. If your skil in interpreting of the scriptures in prescribing rules for the direction of men be no better then you haue shewed in this you may very well be a Doctour and great master in your blinde and ignorant kingdome of Popery but in the kingdome of Christ there is little hope that there will euer any great reckoning be made of you The XLI Chapter NOw to turne to the partition that we haue vpon the 34. and 37. of Ezechiel and vpon the tenth of Iohn it is plaine that we are the flockes of weake and sickelie sheepe and your disciples are the sheepe that runne this waie and that waie astraie those that are our a Howsoeuer that title is due vnto them they take it not vnto theÌ„ ill Prelats take vpon them the title of Mercenarii pastoris but vnto your ministers the titles of deuouring wolues may be applied b Onely of such as haue made shipwracke of conscience without anie scrupulositie of coÌ„science for you watch to none other intent but to make the sheepe runne out of the folde and to deuour them because that our pastours haue not taken care to keepe them And although they be not excusable aswell for their silence as for their naughty liues I see not your Patriarchs zealous manifesters amende much themselues the faults that they finde in vs for besides the true and certaine experience that wee haue had by the triall that we haue seene to our cost in this Realme within these fiue or six yeares c Penned then by such that had taught their peÌ„s to write lies I haue read full many a golden Legend of your sacred martyrs and holie Bishops which doe not altogither redound to the honour of your pretended reformed Church And among others Theodore de Beza Caluins successour in the Pontificate seat of the holy city of Geneua of whom such things are preached abroad that if the one halfe of them be true d Neither wil â—e nor any of vs so compare our selues he is scant so good a man as S. Iohn Baptist And because I would not haue you to mislike theÌ„ for their religioÌ„ I wil not alleage to verify this any Catholick author but soÌ„e of Luthers successors your first fouÌ„der who taught you to write so learnedly I would say railingly against the church of Rome Tilemanus Heshusius a minister of the LutheraÌ„s in the * Jn his booke of the true body of Christ in the sacrif writen in Latin book that I haue alreadie noted doeth openlie accuse the saied Beza of great infamy that he did not onlie content e Heat of conteÌ„tion made the man too credulous and so beleeued your malitious parasites that most impudently and falsly haue forged these things of him the fancie of his mind with leading a luxurious a liceÌ„tious life to staine his vow with a bilt of adulterous loue but that that is worse hee himselfe hath set forth in writing all his lasciuious acts the which saieth hee f His lasciuious songs and Epigrams he made and published whiles he was yours whereof he hath publickly in printe testified his repentance mislike since he was ours he hath song in sacrilegerime to the Instrument to manifest his sinne to the whole sight of the worlde And in that verie booke hee doeth say that Beza who as I haue tolde you is a Bishop of the holie Cittie of Geneua is an infamous monster whose naughtie life any man may reade set forth by him selfe in his owne Epigrams and notwithstanding saieth he to heare him speake you would thinke hee vvere Saint Iohn Baptist for he can talke of nothing but of his holie life This same very minister in the booke where he writeth these things he doeth laie to g The more shame for him for it is a monstrous and notorious slander Bezaes charge that he tooke with him to Geneua another mans wife without the knowledge of her husband whose name was Candida h Will an argument from one to al follow with papists and yet this one not proued such an one neither
euer those that are sanctified Heb. 10. that he is able to saue perfectly those that come vnto God by him He. 7. that as there is but one God so there is but one mediatour betwixt God and man the man Christ Iesus 1. Tim. 2. and that S. Paul most confidently tolde the Galathians that if with that opinion that the false Apostles had taught them they would be circumcised Christ should profit them nothing at all they were falne from grace Gal. 5. And yet notwithstanding the most cleare and plaine euidence of these scriptures and sundry other places to the like effect so giuen is the church of Rome that now is and hath beene a long time to spoile Christ of a great part of this special honor glory that is due vnto him that it can abide nothing in the world worse then that men should he driuen by the schoolemaster the law out of themselues quite in Christ fully and freely soly and wholy by faith to seeke for their iustification here and saluation hereafter And therefore in it that in the deepe policy of Sathan to blunt the edge of the law that it haue not this force to breake and make contrite the heart of man with the ougly sight of his owne infinite sinnes and punishments due vnto him for the same to driue him to hunger and thirst after that effectuall iustification and saluation offered vnto men by the gospell in Christ they teach that man hath free-will to good that concupiscence or the first motions to sinne rising in man not consented vnto are no sinne that many sinnes euen for their owne littlenes are veâ—iall that by good deedes man may satisfied God for his misdeedes that man may fulfill the law yea that man may haue workes of supererogation more then hee needes for his owne saluation and that men by their workes maie merit a great part of their owne saluation yea haue merits both before iustification flowing from their pure natural faculties and powers to prouoke GOD to thinke it congruum that is meete and conuenient that euen therefore hee should bestow his grace vpon them and after merits de condigno that eueÌ„ for their very worthines deserue an euerlasting reward of blisse at Gods hand both for themselues and others And when they would seeme to be come vnto Christ and to beleeue in him yet in no case wil they trust to him alone and that that hee hath done and still doeth for them but then his sufferinges and their owne his merits and their owne and their frendes his sacrifice and their owne in their masse his mediation and the mediation of Saints and angels and an hundreth things els euen childish and rediculous for the matter of saluation must be trusted vnto That it is thus all the world seeth and they themselues in printed bookes stand vpon it that it must be thus and that we are heretiques because we will not let them alone in thus apparelling themselues their frends and their toies with the spoiles of our Christ and so their very glory is their shame A Christ that is so base minded in the office of iustifying and sauing of mens soules thus to be iumbled and ioined with so many partners and helpers is a Christ of their owne deuising such an one doubtles as we can heare no news of either in old or new testameÌ„t And therefore out of all question they shall finde that whiles they run a madding after this fansied new Christ of their owne the old true Christ will profit them nothing at all and that they are quite fallen from grace No man whose eies God hath opened aright either to vnderstand the law or the gospel but seeing and knowing these things to be true of them he must needs thinke and bee resolued that popery is euen that mystery of iniquity that Saint Paul speaketh of 2. Thess 2. and that the papists be flat those flase teachers that Saint Peter speaketh of 2. Epistle chap. 3. Which priuily should bring in damnable heresies euen denying the Lorde that hath bought them and so bring vpon themselues swift damnation whom yet many should follow and by whom the way of trueth should bee euill spoken of c. It is needfull therefore I would thinke especialy considering how earnest Saint Peter is there to perswade men to shun such for vs to leaue them and forsake them as we haue the thing which in this behalfe we haue especially to mourne for is that we forsooke them no sooner Howbeit though the better to countenance their Church and religion and to proue vs in thus forsaking of them to haue brought in such a schism as he talketh of he would make thee christian reader beleeue that all the world were at vnity with them in their faith and false bragge as if thou readest the fourth chapter of my answere to Albine and the 11. 37. thou shalt most plainely see It seemeth the man was very impudent or very childishly ignoraÌ„t of histories that would thus write For who of any learning or reading is ignorant that not onely the Greeke church and other Easterne Churches some hundreth yeares before the time that he speaketh of brake of communion with them but that also euen here in these Westerne parts in France Bohemia here in England and elswher long before this time Petrus Valdus Iohn Wickliffe Iohn Hus Hierom of Prage had so many followers and pertakers against them and their abhominations that for all the tyranny and most sauage persecutions that they haue vsed to roote them out by from time to time that yet notwithstanding they haue continued doe will stil in one place or other maugre all their malice euen to recompence that whore of Babylon as shee hath deserued at their hands As for the variety of opinions amongst vs that he vpbraydeth vs withall it is an obiection that Iohn de Albine often harped vpon therefore which in answering of him I haue sufficiently I hope answered Only this therfore to yâ— I further say here that though they be more and greater then we like of yet they are nether so great nor many as these our aduersaries by amplifying of this obiectioÌ„ by multiplying of names would seeme to make theÌ„ nor yet in such points but that notwithstanding we all agree in the fundamentall most principal points of christiaÌ„ religion whereby we hope it will thorow Gods goodnes come to passe that we shall shortly also grow to vnity in the rest In the meane time sure I am that they whom by any reason he may say be of vs for our holding felowship and coÌ„munion togither in our confession of the christian faith are all amongst our selues at farre more vnity then such as he liketh of at far better vnity then they be or euer haue beene since they departed froÌ„ vs. As for the Anabaptists diuers others whom sometime they charge vs in this case also withall they know wel enough we
defy detest theÌ„ their frantick opinions as much as any and of all men we haue beene the forwardest in writing against them And therefore they doe vs the more wrong when at any time they aggrauate this obiection against vs by charging vs to haue such amongst vs whom thus we shunne and mislike aswell as they Thus much therfore let suffice for answere to this fourth signe and now let vs proceede to the next The next is not to obey but resist the Prelates of the Church which hee would proue so to bee by Pauls saying 2. Tim. 3. like as Iannes and â—ambres resisted Moses so doe these resist the trueth being men of corrupt mindes reprobates in faith of which fault when the learned protestant can proue them guilty and vs cleare he promiseth to recant It seemeth the man in alleadging this text did trust his memory too much for twise he hath writen MaÌ„bres for IaÌ„bres but if that were all his fault here it were a small matter But here againe according to his old woont he must haue it freely giueÌ„ and granted him for he bringeth nothing at all to proue it that their Bishops and Prelates are all such as Moses Paul was that is faithfull in teaching only Gods people the truth For vnles this be yeelded him it neither may be granted him that he rightly applieth his text nor this signe against vs. But he knoweth well enough and so doe all the packe of theÌ„ that we are so far from being so prodigall in our gifts vnto them that we hold their prelates bishops Priests to be very IaÌ„nes Iambres in resisting our Bishops and ministers in teaching the same truth that they haue learned of Moses Paul and that therefore we thinke no better of them then of men of corrupt mindes reprobate in the faith For which cause we are sure we both may and ought to disobey them and resist them as we doe For so we finde that Esay Hieremy Amos Michaiah Christ and his Apostles in their times refused to obey and resisted the false doctrine of the false Prophets and high Priests that theÌ„ were What a vanity is it therefore in this man to trouble his reader with such colde and poore stuffe as this is And truely hee hath no better happe in the last then in any of the former For setting it downe that ficklenesse and slipperinesse of errours and heresies is a signe and sure token to bewray the authors thereof and that the catholique faith or trueth is likewise to be knowen by the constant stability thereof he saieth that which we grant to be very true as willingly as he or any of his side Insomuch that coÌ„monly it is one of the principall reasons that we vse to proue their opinions that we striue against them for to be errours or heresies theÌ„selues for now holding them so obstinatly as they doe heretiques for that we are able to shew how by stealing and soft paces stily they began first to creepe in and so went on froÌ„ worse to worse vntill to vse his owne tearme they came ad prosuÌ„dum maloruÌ„ that is euen to the depth of all euill that they are now growen vnto therein Who so readeth my answere to Albines publishers preface and the 37. Chapter of my answere to Albine himselfe shall finde that in a good sort of their opinions I haue shewed this But to proue this that it is the property of heretiques to be fickle and mouing and so soone to perish passe away he alleadgeth S. Peter saying that lying masters doe bring vpoÌ„ theÌ„selues swift daÌ„nation their destruction sleepeth not which he spake of gods iudgements yâ— vndoubtedly should ouertake such meÌ„ not as he vnderstandeth him to shew that their opinions alwaies should soone passe away and vanish In the former sence it is alwaies fouÌ„d true that S. Peter writeth either here or els where or both but take it in the later sence then Peter shall often be found to haue prophecied of such vntruly For who knoweth not that the grosse errours of Turcism are of very long continuance that the errour of the Aethiopians for circumcision is far more ancients and that yet it continueth And must not of necessity the errours and heresies of Antichrist be of very long continuance seeing Paul as we haue heard confesseth that the mystery of that iniquity beganne to worken in his time aboue 1500. years ago and that it should not quite be abolished before Christs second comming who then should yet by the brightnesse of his comming abolish it 2. Thess 2 The trueth of whose prophecy in that place is the very true ground of the antiquity vniuersality and continuance of the popish and Antichristian Religion So that howsoeuer it hath fallen out in some heresies that they haue in Gods most wise prouidence euen quickely brought themselues to an ende by their ficklenes moouing yet it appeareth in that place the sinne of not beleeuing the trueth so notably taught and confirmed by Christ and his Apostles in the iust iudgement of God by Antichristianity is so seuerely to be punished that therewith euen from the Apostles daies to the ende of the worlde they that commit that sinne shall bee in danger to bee deluded and seduced most dangerously Which I say and sure I am I can proue it hath beene and yet is most notoriously verifyed by popery to the wonderfull hurt and destruction of soules Howbeit this man would faine apply this signe vnto vs for that amongst vs as it pleaseth him to write here in England for the loue we beare to the doctrine of the Zwinglians Oecolampadians and Caluinists the Lutherans haue takeÌ„ their iust ouerthrow and for that now here Precisians and Puritans as he saith through the affection of the common people and so winking at them by some magestrates haue brought the Zwinglians and Caluinists to be ready to yeeld vp the ghost and to tilt vp their heeles But these are but vaine words and proue not his purpose For all these howsoeuer in other matters of lesser moment they too much disagree yet as I haue saied before and as it is notoriously knowen for the principall articles of religion coÌ„cerning faith or maners they are in constant vnity holding the same all of them that they haue learned in these points out of the Canonical scriptures as the harmony of their confessions extant to the world in print make it euident As for the seuerall and priuate opinions of Luther and his too earnest followers which we now mislike we haue likewise alwaies misliked and therefore in that respect they haue no other ouerthrow amongst vs then they alwaies since we first heard of them haue had and howsoeuer in these points we rather prefer Zuinglius and Caluins iudgement then theirs yet certaine it is that we build not our faith of them nor of them or by them delight we to be called we protest and professe our selues
to be christians and of him onely and of his vndoubted spirit speaking vnto vs in the canonicall scriptures haue we learned our religion with which as far as we finde any man to agree we reuerence him as it becommeth vs in the Lord further we take not our selues bound to follow any man whatsoeuer he be That Puritans and Precisians haue brought the ancient Protestants of this land of all sortes to any such point by any such meanes as he speaketh of he speaketh both vntruely and slanderously For such as for their preposterous zeale and factious turbulent spirits amongst vs deserue so to be called and accounted neither are for number so many nor for credit so affected of the common people nor wincked at of the magestrats as he pretendeth But if ther were as many fond sectaries that haue arisen vp amongst vs these late yeares as this man and other of his fellowes sometime would haue men to beleeue as long yet as we for all that continue constant not onely in the very same religion that we were of when we first broke of from them but also in that which hath plentifull and most playne warrant both from the canonicall scriptures and al sound antiquity as we haue a thousand times shewed and yet still are willing and ready alwaies to doe why should they thus odiously be obiected against vs to disgrace either vs or our religion especially seeing wee are sory for it and shew our mislike thereof as wee doe May any man iustly disgrace the Apostles and the Apostolique churches for that euen in their times there arose so many sectaries and heretiques amongst the Churches planted by them as both by their owne writings and other Ecclesiasticall histories it is notoriously knowen there did Hath not Christ euen of purpose to preuent all offence taking hereat compared his kingdome Matth. 13. to a field wherein the good seeds-man hauing sowen good wheat the enuious man so soweth his tares that they come vp togither with the wheat and so will doe vnto the haruest To let vaine words and brags go let thē proue but once any of them or all of them togither either that their religion is the plaine way of saluation beaten by our forefathers for these 1500. yeares past or that ours is not that very trueth that Christ and his Apostles taught as a perpetual trueth for the true church constantly to hold to the worlds end and we will striue with them no lōger But as this is a matter too hard heauy for them so they are content to let it alone and with fallacies vaine words to trie if they can beguile the simple people and bring them to a misliking of that which to mislike indeede they are not able to giue them one sound reason And therefore to conclude that both beginning ending and alwaies this mā may be like himselfe he taketh it for graunted that their religion is the sound catholique faith that the martyr Sebastian meant by his loafe which broken and broken againe after it was once well made and baked by sectaries heretiques as he told Genserichus the tyrant would neuer become better and that ours is but a breaking of it to make it better againe which will neuer be Whereas we constantly hold affirme that we may iustly say to all papists euen as Sebastian saied to that tyrant For the loafe that we feed on and would haue all others to feed on with vs we are able to proue is that the graine whereof Christ himselfe by his faithfull seruants hath sowen in the sound field of the canonical scriptures which he himselfe hath ground kneaden baked for vs and for all his children And likewise we are able to proue that this fine white loafe of the Lords own preparing alwaies lying ready in the storehouse of his writen word the Romish church hath a long time doth stil as much loath as euer the children of Israel did Manna And therefore as they preferred in their conceits garlicke leekes onions the flesh-pots of Egypt before that heauēly food so hath she and doeth she a massiue loafe the corne whereof must not come onely out of the foresaied field of the Lord for then it would haue no fauour with them but in great part out of the rotten field of mens traditions inuentions before the pure white loafe of the lords own making Wherefore to conclude all his speech or exhortation groūded vpon this story out of Victor de persecutione Vandalorum any man may see we might farre more iustly vse against thēselues of the Romish Church to persuade them as they regard their owne saluation c. to content themselues with vs with this Sebastians loafe of the first and best making I haue thus thou seest good reader but briefly past ouer these things and the rather I haue so done first because I found no matter in them but grounded vpon shameles begging of that which is most in question and secondly because in my answere to Albine I had vpon occasion giuen me by him already answered al or most of his assumptions against vs in the applying of these signes vnto vs. But lastly by view of an answere made at large by master Crowley both to the 22. demaunds and these six signes also that came to my hands since my finishing of this answere of mine I see if it had beene vndone I might well haue spared al my labour herein If therefore thou desirest any further answer concerning any of these I refer thee to him And thus I take my leaue of thee beseeching the Lord now and euer to blesse both thee and me and heartily praying thee to remember me alwaies in thy godly prayers to God to whom be all glory praise and dominion now and euer Thine in the Lord Thomas Sparke A Table whereby readily to finde out the principal matters contained in the former answere to Albine or any of his fauourers wherein because vntill thou commest to the answere to Albine himselfe the pages are not figured in the top as in the rest for any thing before handled the page of the letter in the bottome of those leaues whereof there are 16 for euery letter is noted for thy direction A. Abbeyes why and how suppressed pa. 287. Albine conuicted of blasphemy p. 95. 96. 186. 375. 378. Albine sheweth himselfe to haue beene of a profane spirit 269. Albines publishers methode in his epistle to the reader discouered b. p. 11. 12. 13. Albines owne methode and the folly thereof laied open E. 4 5. 6 Albines cunning in running from the question 6 7 9. 10. 11. c. Albine notorious in abusing scriptures 2. 3. 36. 37. Albine worthy to be famous for abusing of fathers 47. 51. 85. 86. 119. c. 126. c. 131 134 156. ca p. 37. through out Antiquity protestants rather haue then papists and true antiquity protestants stand vnto 102. 158. c. Auricular confession dangerous E. p.