possession of that sense of the scripture which they pretēded to be false and wrōg And surely no man of common sense who is in possessiō and hath the law in his owne hands will yeild it vp without euidence on the cōtrarie part The second rule I desire a Catholike should obserue is not to thinke his cause lost because him self cannot answere the argumēts proposed against him nor to venter his cause and his possession vpon his owne wit For the disputation being in a matter wherein according to the Protestants groundes there is no certaintie it followeth that who hath the better wit or is more practized in this matter may bring an argumēt a good scholler cannot solue at the first sight though afterwards ether he or some other may And what a follie were it for a man to venture his soule and conscience vpon a subtilitie or present flash of wit whereof peraduenture within an hower hee him selfe will see the falsitie and condemne his owne errour Wherefore a Catholike is not to venter the cause vpon his owne head nor to confesse it weake because he cannot defende it for both may he improue him selfe and some others perhapps may goe farr beyōd him The third rule is that the Catholike should neuer vndertake to conuince his Aduersarie out of scripture but content him self that these words may well beare this sense which is in fauour of the Catholike church And this is both more easie to performe and sufficient for his pourpose For the Catholike hath an assured grounde of his faith besides scripture and which relyeth not vpon it nay he holdeth that his Religion cannot be wholy conuinced out of scripture to what end therefore vnlesse he would show his wit should he vndertake to proue his tenents by scripture For this were to strenghen his opponent in his owne grounde and principle to wit that all is to be proued out of scripture Nephew You would binde Protestants to verie vnequall conditions if you will oblige them to conuince and the Catholike not nay that it shal be sufficient for the Catholike to shew this may be the meaning of this or that place of scripture whereas the Protestant shal be forced to proue cleerely and euidently that this is the verie sense of the text Vncle. Not I cozen but the Protestants them selues oblige thē selues to this hard measure for if a man should strongly mātaine that a Beetle were the best instrument to cut withall and you saie no were no he bound to cut with a Beetle and it were no sense to saie that you should be forced to doe it since you mantaine it to be impossible So they who hold that the scripture is the true iudge of controuersies and fit and able to decide all quarells and dissensions about the Christian faith and law binde them selues by holding this to conuince their positions by scripture which cānot be exacted at his hands Who saith scripture was not made for this end nor is sufficient for it And looke vpon Luther and the Heretikes of his timē nay vpon the Puritants of our days and see if they doe not all mātaine that they can conuince their tenēts by scripture and saie that our forefathers were wholy ignorant of scripture and that wee now liuing knowe nothing of it But to goe on with our rules of disputing out of scripture The fourth condition shall bee that the Catholike doe not admitte anie negatiue proofes as to saie this is an errour because you can shew no scripture for it For this is no proofe vnlesse they will suppose that nothing is true but scripture or that there is nothing to bee donne but what is ordained by scripture which were absurd for nether Catholike nor I thinke anie good Protestant will admitte of that supposition being it were not only to take away the power of the church but euen nature from nature for nature teacheth vs to helpe our selues where scripture doth not contradict and as a Puritant seeketh a pulpit or high place to preach in without looking whether he haue a warrant for it in the scripture to command him so rationall and sensible men doe seeke a particular habit for a preacher or Clergie man whereby he may be more decent and comely and his words and exhortations be receiued with more respect and authoritie and this without anie cōmande of the scripture which where it commandeth it maketh the thing cōmanded to be necessarie where it is silent there it maketh nothing vnlawfull Nephew If the Protestants were to disput vpon these conditions they would keepe of I warrant you Yet this I must tell you that it were a great satisfaction for indifferent men that haue beene brought vp in this verball and apparent respect of the scripture to see that the positions you would induce them vnto can bee and are maintened by scripture and that they are grounded therein This perhapps you can doe by shewing mee some other waie of dealing with thē and whether there be not §. 15 An other manner of disputing out of scripture VNcle For their sakes cozen I will tell you of an other sort of disputation wherein the Protestant shall haue no other disaduantage but of his cause For I thinke that the Catholike cause may not only be maintened by scripture but also that it hath the better stāding precisely to scripture alone I confesse this kinde of disputation is not fit for manie Auditors but only for moderate and vnderstanding men And it is to make this the question Whether partie is more probable if only scripture were to bee alleadged This Question requireth diuers suppositions where vpon both sides are to be agreed which I feare will bee some what hard As what texts are to preuaille what cōmentaries or explicatiōs shall be allowed of what is a proper and an improper speeche amongst improper speeches which must be preferred what copies of euerie text shal be held for good what coniectures shall be accounted null against the naturall sense And manie other such positions which would not be easily resolued This donne let both sides bring their places for the pointe in question and so the disputatiō will only be of the qualificatiō of the places that is to shew whether are more apparēt and likely of the two And for this I see lekewise that so manie logicall principles are first to bee resolued which partly are found as yet amongst the critickes disputations as that all the Logickes hitherto inuented would not afford sufficiēt light and instruction to make an euident conclusion whether side were more apparent in words and Tetxs And therefore you may ghesse how farr these disputations out of scripture are frō clearing doubts what litle good cometh of them vnlesse they bee well gouerned And how for the most part the best credit or the best tongue carrieth awaie the day by the Auditor's preiudicat opinion or weaknesse In a word the scripture being not written for this end to wit for the
two Protestants of one Religion They Tiffâ—â—iâ— so manie points that they daâ—â—â— one the other for 〈◊〉 belieuers Doe but examine whether the positions wherein they disagree amoÌ„gst themselueâ— be not of as maine importance as those wherein we differ from them all and you shall finde manie of theÌ„to be the verie same Naythere be not two Doctors or persons bere in England of one Religion no nor two laye men who giue them selues to expound scriptures and make their priuat spirit iudge of their beliefe and tenets And this not only because so manie variable phaÌ„sies grounded euerie one vpoÌ„ it selfe cannot possibly agree wherevpon you shall hardly see two meete and conferre of ReligioÌ„ but they will disagree if they talke long but also because all knowledge hath it's vnitie from some setled and certaine principles which being not to be found out of the Catholike church in matters of Religion there can be no vnitie or beliefe amongst Protestants For althought our ParlemeÌ„t hath comanded diuers articles to be â—â—ght in the churches of England yet doth not the Protestant Clergie acknowledge that the Parlement who are theâ—â—â—â—â—ke and taught by the 〈…〉 anie power to iudge or determine pointes of doctrine And in deede it were ridiculous for those who thinke that an vniuersall CoÌ„gregation of Bishopps and the bodie of the whole church may erre in beliefe should 〈◊〉 no attribute this vâ—errable power to their owne schollers Nether doe they that I know of but still mantaine constantly their cheefe grounde that all when are fallible and subiect to erre why Protestants ought not force anie man to belieue with them Where by the way you may note how hardly they deale with Catholikes in punishing them for professing a different faith from theirs seeing that if we belieue differently we must needes professe differeÌ„tly and they by their owne confession not hauing anie authoritie whereby they can or ought force anie maÌ„ to belieue as they doe t' is euident that they must per force contradicte their owne principles if they will persecute vs. Now therefore seeing that to be of one faith is to be of one setled opinion and setling cannot be without infalibilitie or necessitie the Protestants hauing no common principles which them selues esteeme infalible euerie maÌ„ expounding scripture their only rule of faith at his pleasure nor anie hauing power or authoritie to controle an others interpretation of anie passage what soeuer t' is impossible anie two ministers should be of one faith and Religion T' is true per chaÌ„ce they may be of one minde to day but eare night if ether of them light of a place of the scripture which after more consideration seemeth to haue an other sense then he thought before they may well be of different opinions And this in what pointe how materiall or essentiall soeuer These men therefore may be said to be some times of one minde or opinion but neuer of one faith and Religion faith being like mariage not to be taken vp for a yeare and a day but for all Eternitie The learned Catholikes be more learned then the learned Protestants And now to returne to the discourse we ayme at As the number of our learned men doth farr exceede the number of learned Prostants so likewise by all likelyhood doth their learning The English Diuinitie generally speaking is nothing but controuersies which are but the fourth or fift part of Catholike Diuinitie For besides controuersies we haue scholasticall Theologie which explicate's the mysteries of our faith and shewe's their conformitie to nature and naturall reason We haue morall Diuinitie which searche's into the practize of the Sacraments aÌ„d Precepts of good life We haue scripture lessons which diue into the deepe sense of the written word of God without farther application We haue misticall Theologie which examine's the extraordinarie waies of conuersation with God And lastly we haue Ecclesiasticall historie which shewe's the progresse increase and practize of Christian faith through all ages and places And of all these we haue I doe not saie bookes or volumes but whole libraries written and extant amongst vs. And for other eruditions as languages Poetrie Rhethoricke Logicke and Philosophie if the Protestants haue anie let them looke into their samples and they shall finde the most eminent and worthie men to haue beene and to be Catholikes so that as of all ReligioÌ„s the Christian so of all Christian's the Catholike is without questioÌ„ the most wise and the most learned profession And what I saye is not to be sought out in old manuscripts or learned papers your eyes and eares will tell it you in Catholike countries and euen in Paule's church yard where you may finde multitudes of volumes of all these sorts of learning written by Catholikes And if their shopps were well shaked vp I doubt not but for bookes of worth except some English pamphletts and a few controuersies one hundreth for one would be found to haue beene written by Catholikes What apparence theÌ„ can there be that the Protestants arguments should be so mightie and so cleerely better then what Catholikes can saie for them selues as to beare downe the right of Antiquitie and possessioÌ„ whereof the Catholikes are the sole Claymers Nephew I cannot denie but that your discourse is sound and grounded vpon common sense and vpon such euidence as when I was in Paris I heard was there to bee seene but my minde was then more fixed vpon the Tennis court then vpon such enquiries But why might not one replye that all this and more is necessarie for the iustifying of so euill a quarell If Catholikes be not honest and vertuous men the more learned they are the more daÌ„gerous and more able to mantaine a false position And t' is like the Protestants would replye in this manner for they tell vs that the Pope hath gotteÌ„ so mightie a power ouer our verie vnderstandings that for manie ages we haue bent all our witts how to mantaine his tiles aÌ„d decrees without anie care of truth or probabilitie wherefore the more wit and learning the more blindnesse of passion and interest As the learned Catholikes are more learned theÌ„ the learned ProtestaÌ„ts so they are more vertuous then they Vncle. I did not thinke that learning had deserued so ill at your hands as to censure it so seuerely No no coseÌ„ one maÌ„ or two or three may be the more daÌ„gerous for their learning but not whole multitudes For of it 's owne nature it is a great instrument of vertue being the CompanioÌ„ of truth so that there can be no greater signe of truth in anie ReligioÌ„ then to see it beare the touch of reason and that the professors of it be addicted to learning Besids I pray remember I speake to one who professeth no schollershippe and therefore doe not inquire what is or is not but what is most likely and apparent It must therefore be knowne that the Religion is false before it can
things as put men in feare of yeilding to the contrarie which is a kinde of strengthening of man's weaknesse against these cōtrarieties Secondly by diminishing and aswaging the force and violence of these contrarieties ether in them selues or in their action In the first manner doe contribute all kinde of Ceremonies and particularly those which are vsed in the instalements and Beginnings of offices and charges as the Sacraments of Order and Matrimonie And likewise the opinion of miracles For Ceremonies their nature in generall is to put in men's heads the conceite of a high and sublime thing whereby we proceede with greater caution and warinesse in the busines which we haue in hand And for miracles the beliefe and opinion of them once well grounded as it ought to be make's the people extremely apprehensiue of the presence of Almightie God and of his immediate gouerment of human affaires So that as to be ouer credulous of miracles is the signe of a light and imprudent man for according to reason the stranger the thing is the greater ought to be the proofe which should make vs belieue it so likewise not to thinke that some miracles in common haue beene and are now done in the Catholike church were to contradict the vniuersall and constant opinion of all good Christians and deserue's to be suspected of not belieuing the particular prouidence of Allmightie God which is the maine string where vpon all Christianitie and supernaturall Religion hāgeth and which all Maisters of pietie and deuotion haue euer souht to grounde strōgly in the harts and soules of men Nephew But I pray vncle how will this be true in Matrimonie for that concerne's me he vse whereof consist's in such a materiall and sensuall pleasure I haue often reflected why the Catholike church which make's so great esteeme of virginitie should place mariage amōgst the Sacraments and make such great Ceremonies in the administration of it Vncle. You speake like a youngster And I would to God your conceite and thought were not so deepely rooted in the harts of manie young men like your selfe The Apostle tell 's you that the right and lawfull vse of the bed is honorable Why t' is fitt that Matrimonie should be a Sacramēt Heb 13. 1. Tim. 2. and that woemen are to be saued by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is bringing forth of Children God Almightie hath bestowed this procreation of children vpon his seruants as a cheefe temporall Blessing so we see in Abraham and in the good woman that entertained Elizeus and suerly it was the first Blessing that God bestowed vpon his creatures If you considere for what end God sanctifie's anie action you shall finde t' is only for man's vse And then reflect vpon the goods which follow the lawfull vse of this materiall action betwixt man and wife and you will not wonder that God hath placed a Sacrament in matrimonie I doe not doubt but the light of reason tell 's you that in respect of good oeconomie a man's hauing but one wife and his perpetuall cohabitation with hir is the best manner of secular liuing that can be both for temporalities sake and for hauing a quiet and contented life Which supposed Mariage must needes be a matter of great consideration For ether a man must liue without a woman which kinde of life is but for few or with this womā after he hath once taken hir And therefore t' is of great importance that this manner of life of it's owne nature be conuenient and gratfull Besides you know a man take's a great deale of naturall content in his wife generally speaking which some times drawe's him to strang inconueniences vnlesse his passions and affections be well moderated and setled for you know hee take's hir for his best friend his best seruant and his dearest partner in all his busineses supposing she be wise and prudent and consequently euer complying in reason with hir husband's humour Whereby you see that the making of a Marriage and the vsage of it when t' is made is the pinne whereon doth hang the cheefe content and sweetnesse of a maried man's life the good of his posteritie the maine successe and prosperitie of his temporall estate or fortunes And aboue all the breeding of his children and the instilling of pietie and vertue into their tender harts which may grow with their age and carie them to felicitie Iudge now cosen whether it was not conueniēt and fitting that in the law of grace this Action should be eleuated and rancked in the highest degree and order of those actions which God hath sanctified for the vse of man And ought we not to commende and preferre the wisdomes of our forefathers before all other nations for making so great esteeme of it and celebrating it with such great ceremonies Nephew Truly I am to thanke you for this good lesson because it may be of speciall vse for my selfe And I could wish it were giuen to all men before they marrie For my selfe I thanke God I am so well sped that I neede not wish to haue learned it sooner But I pray vncle lett me know the other part of your diuision that is which be those things you said were necessarie to breake the force of cōtrarieties and temptations against vertue and which might comfort and strengthē men in this distresse I doe imagine that you ayme at some things which you will hardly proue As for Example doe you thinke that for this end §. 11 Praying for the dead Extreme vnction and Confession are necessarie VNCLE Setting a side the temptations of sensuall pleasure which we suppose to be moderated by mariage there remaine's feare and grieefe Feare is cheefely of death and iudgment following Griefe is of losse which to rationall men is aboue all other things of friends of whom the cheefest is Allmightie God who is lost by sinne the next is of temporall friends who are principally lost by their death This last is taken awaie by the beliefe of their suruiuing and that once we shall enioye them againe Whence proceede's the desire of continuing amitie and communication with them HoW prayers for the dead doe appease the griefe of the liuing which being only to be had by the mediation of Almightie God it cannot be performed but by praying for them if we thinke they stand in neede And so a great part of this griefe is taken awaie amongst Catholikes by the diuersion of care to gett prayeres said for them and an other part turned to Almightie God by hoping good for them at his hands Whereas others giue their friends ouer in death with a farewell frost or else are plunged in vncurable sorrow for an vncurable losse for the beliefe of enioying them againe when there is no communication in the interim is but cold comfort and sinke's not deepely as things farre from vs doe generally litle moue vs. The feare of death is much moderated by the Sacrament of Extreme vnction
or authoritie vpon earth to take vp these quarells and decide these controuersies shall matters of such maine importance and great consequēce euer remaine a perpetuall subiect of endlesse dissention and diuision shall the Catholike church and Christian Religion bee torne and rente in peeces euē in what is most substātiall and essentiall in hir for still I saie the like may be said of what pointe soeuer at the will and pleasure of some priuate mē's phansies and no power ordained to preuent such essentiall and eternall disorders If this be not to ruine ād ouerthrow all gouerment and Religion and to introduce confusion both common sense and reasō faileth Put this libertie of beleeuing only what he thinkes he find's in the scripture but in to one man's hands to wit the first beginner and brocher of a new dogme and let him be a man to whom the sharpenesse of wit and some times a seeming good life hath giuen authoritie though truly his spirit is gouerned ether by a secret pride or by some other interest or indignation and see if such an one be not able to draw a great multitude euen the third part of the starrs after him especially if he preach libertie ether of minde or bodie and haue with all the hand of some Prince full of rewards and punishments to second his intētions Calculate what the industrie of such a formed party hartily cleauing together is not able to invente Some haue beene able to cast mistes euen vpon mathematikes and vpō the most certaine principles of nature and laying then those qualities of scripture which I haue tould you of to the disposition of those factious persons what euidence thinke you can be expected from the conflicts of such mē disputing vpon such groundes Nephew Truble yourself no farther in this pointe for I cannot but confesse that the euidence you haue brought is greater then I could expect or desire Wherefore I pray hold me no longer in suspence but tell mee §. 12 Which be the wayes or manners of iudging pointes of Religiō out of the scripture VNcle Why cozen tell me first doe you see the walle before you some fouer or fiue yards frō you and how much of if doe you see Nephew I see it perfectly well God be thanked and it is white there is fower pictures hangs on it and half a douzen chaires stand against it To tell you precisely how much of it I see together that I perhapps cannot but in a short turning of myne eye I can see it all or verie neare if I will Vncle. I pray goe within a spanne of it and then tell mee what difference you finde in the sight of the walle Nephew Marry I finde now that I see much lesse of it but that which I doe see and which lyeth directly before me I see farr better and can distinguish euerie litle part in it and of what collour it is Vncle. Did you not tell mee cozen the walle was white how cometh it to passe that you tell me now you see what collour euerie part of it is Nephew It seemed all white before whilest I was a good wale from it but when I came neere it I could perceiue some litle parts dunne others browne and the like but sure the white parts were much more Vncle. Why then cozen you may thinke that you did not perfectly see the collour of the walle before for the collour of the walle must needes be the collour of the parts and you saie the collour of the parts is not one but manie and therefore you only saw the collour of those parts which did exceede the rest And if you tooke anie of those litle parts and put it in a multiplying glasse you would see as great difference of parts and peraduenture of collours to in it as you saw in the walle when you were within a spanne of it so that if one should aske you what you haue seene you would hardly quit your self handsomly of the question Notwithstanding you perceiue well enough that the first sight of the walle serueth you for all the vses of your life as not to runne against it and generally to know how to comporte your self or vse anie thing else which were requisite to be set towards the walle or in anie manner to be donne about it The second sight serueth you only to know the nature of the walle and to distinguish what is mixed in it or of what ingredients it is composed or the like So that you see the easier and more common knowledge of anie thing serueth for the direction of our liues the more particular and exact knowledge is only required ether for the content of the knower or for some speciall practize vpon the thing knowne Nephew I belieue I vnderstand alreadie which waie you intende to carrie me for you will tell me that there are two manners of vnderstāding scripture the one a Kinde of large manner taking it in grosse and a great deale together as we take a discourse or playe which pleasingly passeth away without anie great demurr or particular weighing of euerie word The other more curious and exact looknig into euerie litle proprietie which may breede anie diuersitie And I suppose you would tell me that this second belōgeth only to schollers but that the former guideth our life and gouerneth our actions And t' is true I see the people is ordinarily caried a waye by their preachers Antient common wealths by their Oratours and in what matter soeuer an eloquent and elaborate discours which passeth sweetly in this sort gaine 's presently the suffrages of the Auditorie Wherefore I must needes confesse that what good effect soeuer is the end for which the scripture was ordained if it be anie thing belonging to man's life and conuersation it must be compassed by this grosse cōmon and ordinarie course of reading and vnderstanding it Where as if a man should ouer examine euerie word he would not finde grounde to fixe him self with aduantage and vtilitie Is not this your meaning Vncle. You are verie right And surely if we looke into what is in the scripture necessarie for our good life and vertuous conuersation we shall finde plainely that t' is to be had this waie As the direction of our liues and actions to God acknowledging all things from him Comfort in aduersitie moderation in prosperitie compassion of the afflicted helping of the needie Rewards of vertue punishments of vice examples of both and in a word the motiues of the loue of God and our neighbour and of the cōtempt of the world Who therefore is so blinde as not to see that these things are to be found in the scripture by a sensible common and discreet reading of it though perhapps by a rigorous ād exact ballancing of euerie particular word and syllable anie of these things would vanish awaie we know not how but to come yet closser to our pourpose doe you thinke this manner of reading scripture would make a man
euen now before it passe without controule Nephew Truly sir me thinke's you speake with reason and common sense Yet this authoritie being so great I see not Why it may not of it selfe and by it's instruments worke such an effect as that learned men vpon whose number I am to rely may not become partially affected in the iudgment of Religion and consequently the greater number be more corrupted then the lesser and so the opinion of three were to be preferred before the opinion of the seuēteene Nay in my iudgment experience tell 's vs that not euerie tenth person amongst learned Catholikes doe know the true value and force of our Aduersaries arguments but with a preoccupated dispositiō vndervalue them when perhapps they cannot giue a full and satisfactorie answere vnto them And how should it be otherwise sithence from our childhood we are taught to rely vpon the church for matters of Religion and to reiect and hate anie mā who should seeke to make a contrarie impression in vs. This being plāted in vs in our tender age and growing with nature cannot choose but make a vehement preoccupation in vs whē we come to be able to iudge of controuersies in Religion Nor is it to the pourpose whether it be fit that we haue such an impression or no for I oppose not the thing but the argument which vrge's for the greater number of learned men Vncle. And haue you not marked the like amongst Protestāts ād much more amōgst Puritants And doe you not finde that those who slight Catholike arguments are no lesse preoccupated then the Catholikes you speake of Nay if you marke it they greatest contemners of their Aduersarie's argumēts be they Catholikes or Protestants are commonly the most zealous or rather the most ignorant of the zealous So that in deede the true cause of this partialitie is ignorance and not anie prohibition which contrariwise is a great prouoker to make men doubt of their Religion For euer since our Grand mother Eue harkened to the first why did God all precepts whose reason we vnderstand not haue beene suspicious vnto vs. Tell me then I pray if you were in a shipp where there were a Pilote and his mate and some Captane who had neuer beene at sea before and in a controuersie about their iournay they fall to variance The Pilote and his Mate saying this is the waie the Captane by reports or guesses of his owne saie's that 's not the waie And therevpon the Cōpanie in the shipp take's parts whether side in this case would you iudge to be partiall Nephew T' is cleere that those who ioyne with the Captane are partiall for where the one side hath skill the other none t' is euident that if the question be of skill we ought adhere to the skilfull This I saie is euidēt if there be no particular circumstāce or speciall reason to the contrarie As in our case if the Pilote had some interest to carrie his shipp out of the waie then it were an other matter but stāding precisely in the termes of your case t' is cleere ō which side the partialitie is for the Pilote hauing skill the captaine none the Pilot's aduise were to be preferred in common sense and to side with him were wisdome Vncle. Why then who adhere's to vnskillfull iudgers in matters of Religion are partiall and who adhere's to experts in those matters are wise and rationall Wherefore if the seuenteene adhere to the Mistrisse and teacher of Religiō and the three fly from hir doth not these by this verie act make them selues partiall and those impartiall You must first know whether side goes the right waie before you can suppose ether side to be partiall and consequently the number will still preuaille as long as t' is in doubt whether side is partiall And if one side adhere to that part which was in prepossession the other plead against possession you are bound by the law of nature by the institution of all cōmunities and by commō sense to iudge the pleaders against possession to be partiall vntill they haue proued their motiō so reasonable as wil ouer balāce the great authoritie of possession which is against them Farther if you considere that Christian Religion is supernaturall that is such an one as cannot be learned but frō Almightie God to wit from the Apostles or from them whō the Apostles or their Disciples haue taught you will see that there is no disputing about Religion but only to aske what hath beene taught vs which none can tell vs but those whose life and professiō it is to teach vs that doctrine which them selues first learned to wit the Bishopps and Pastors of the church So that who doubt's of what these mē haue taught and doe teach vs must needes be ignorant of the meanes and waie of knowing Christian doctrine and passionately refuse the true ād certaine rule thereof Nephew I see myne errour and it was the same as if one should condemne a man of partialitie who keepe 's possession of his owne because he yeild's not vp the state whereof he is possessed before iudgmēt be giuē against him whereas contrariwise in the Ciuill law which I once studied a litle if one be put out of quiet possession his Aduersarie may not pleade vntill he be put in againe And sure of all cases the fowlest is to doubt in matters of Religion before one hath reason for where authoritie is plainely on the one side there none cā doubt without wronging that Authoritie vnlesse he haue a reason which doth ouer ballance it And so I am satisfied in this pointe Vncle. Take this with you nephew that generally no cōtrouersies of Religion fall out without some motiues of interest on both sides and so both sides may be suspected of partialitie but cheefely that which beginne's the change Wherefore suppose men were forbiddē to doubt that would be of litle force if once they sawe their commanders were interessed vnlesse they sawe withall that they could not mende them selues Besides in our schooles all things are caled in question which would not be suffered if it endāgered the churche's beliefe Lastly being t' is great schollers that gouerne men's iudgments if they did finde by their learning anie other sure ground of Religion then standing to the churche's authoritie and iudgment they would esteeme as much of hir Commandes and Sampson did of the Philistins shutting their gates vpon him And so wee see by experience that all truly learned ād vnpassionat mē on our side besides the motife of the churche's authoritie adhere vpon pure reason to the Catholike tenets and will protest vpon all that 's holy that they would be of the same Religiō though there were no commande finding it most conformable to reason and to the grounds of Christianitie Nephew The truth is I know not how to answere your discourse yet perhapps a Protestant would saie that all 's but probabilitie and likelihood and therefore to hazard a
that how soeuer the common people doe not distinguish what is of Tradition and what is but of some learned men's opinioÌ„s neuerthelesse those whom we call Deuines if truly they be such as the name require's may aÌ„d doe distinguish positions of such different natures For Christian doctrine is not a bundle of loose positions as those who negligently looke on it may thinke but a true discipline hanging together by consequences and order tending to one end And of this doctrine and discipline some parts be such as cannot be knowne but by immediate reuelation others such as no sensible man can doubt of if he beleeue the former And learned meÌ„ know that of both these two the one is expresly deliuered by tradition the other is as firme as if it were so deliuered For as it was reueiled that our sauiour is truly God and man so euerie man of coÌ„mon sense knowes that he had two wills Deuine and human against the Monothelites Other points there may be which neede art and studie to deduce and fetch them out of the two former And of these likewise a true Deuine cannot be ignoraÌ„t being they are be fruits of learning and studie and consequently haue euer beene in the soules and writings of learned Masters And these points euerie one knowes who is conuersant in Logike and in iudging the qualities of such propositions as belong to scieÌ„ce And your self I am sure by the litle skill you haue therein and by the smale light of this discourse will eastly iudge that this is reasonable Nephew I conceiue your meaning but whereas you saie that the points of the second order are as firme as those which are deliuered by Tradition me thinke's that 's not reasonable sithence Tradition relye's wholy on God and his word but the other only vpoÌ„ man's discourse which is falible and easily mistaken and therefore must of necessitie be much inferior Vncle. I would not haue you take my words so precisely not in so rigorous a degree of comparison for so euen of demonstrations the precedent will be esteemed more certaine then that which is deduced out of it though in a morall eâ—tiâ—ation the certainties be equall And so it is in those two degrees for truly that litle discourse which is required for the second degree is infalible certaine and euident and therefore the knowledge proceeding froÌ„ it may well be rancked with the former degree But I suppose you expect to heare why it doth not follow that if a truth not deliuered by Tradition may neuerthelesse passe for such why I saie an errour may not haue the same progresse and surprise the church that is §. 11 Why no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God ANd this I will shew you in a word because it falleth into the repetitioÌ„ of what we haue alreadie discoursed on The impossibilities are three First it trencheth vpon the resolution wee formerly made that one man's authoritie could not preuaile against and ouer the whole church for this is the difference betwixt a truth and a false hood that a truth though it beginne from one yet may it be accepted of by all by reason of it's euidence Which when one hath laid opeÌ„ others may follow not for the man's authoritie but for the loue of the seene truth Whereas falsehood which cannot bring euidence with it must be bolstered vp by the man's credit aÌ„d reputation which you know is insufficient Secondly it is impossible an errour should generally preuaille by reason of the immutabilitie which is in the vniuersalitie of contingent causes whose particulars may be defectiue but the vniuersalls cannot So that as it is impossible in nature that all children should be borne with one eye all coltes with three leggs or the like so were it a monstrous accident and that in a higher and more immutable nature if an errour should generally preuaile and passe through all mankinde or through so great a part of it as we make accounte the Catholike church is and will euer be The third impossibilitie is because it trencheth vpon the stabilitie of Religion for sithence we agreed that t' is impossible for anie nation to haue no Religion and as impossible to change a true into a false And likewise that Christian doctrine hath the nature of science so farre as that no errour can fall into it but must bring contradiction and opposition against the principles and receiued practize of the church and so make a breach against the antient possession it doth therefore plainely appeare that as it is impossible for such a breach to become vniuersall in time and place so likewise must it needes be impossible that an vntruth should be vniuersally receiued for tradition hauing not beene deliuered as such Nephew I must confesse your reasons seeme good yet might one saie all your reasoÌ„s are but morall persuasions which may faile as if one should saie it is reasonable to thinke an honest man will not lye yet I doubt not but some times the coÌ„trarie happene's Wherefore I pray you tell me §. 12 Of what qualitie you thinke these your reasons and discourses be and whether you conceiue them to beare an absolute certaintie VNcle I feare it will be to farr on the night before I can satisfie your difficultie yet I will shew you breefly and familiarly what may suffice Tell me then doe you thinke there is such a towne as Rome or Constantinople Nephew That I doe I would I knew what I aske as well Vncle. Why who tould you there were anie such townes Nephew Truly I doe not remember who tould me so in particular but I haue heard so manie talke of them without doubting that it were follie to doubt of it Vncle. But if I or some other of whose honestie you doe not doubt should tell you we haue beene there and haue seene those townes with our owne eyes would you belieue it more certainely then you doe Nephew No in deede vncle for although I should in that case make no doubt of it yet their authorities vpon which I doe alreadie belieue it are no lesse nay farr greater seeing that if it were not fo manie more of no lesse credit and reputation must be lyars whoÌ„ though I cannot name yet nature tell 's me that if thousands had not reported it of their owne knowledge it could not passe so constaÌ„tly and vncontrowlably as is doth Vncle. But if a man should come with manie great reasoÌ„s and motiues to persuade you that there is not euer was anie such cities a we speake of Nay let vs suppose that if you liued but 20 myles from London where euerie day you fawe hundreth's come from theÌ„ce and your self had neuer beene there And there should come vnto you a man who should labour to shew by reason that it were a follie to thinke there were anie such towne as LondoÌ„ Or to make our supposition more strong suppose you had liued diuers yeares in London and had neuer seene
the firmenesse of Tradition Nephew You tould me the Tradition of Christian faith was a great while a planting in the harts of men by the force of miracles and that not only in their vnderstandings but also in their wills and affectiōs and so cultiuated vntill the maine of the people were constantly persuaded there was no saluation without it This was done at the same time in manie Countries not knowing one of an other nor being able to correspōde and frame anie draught of beliefe together but euerie one receiuing what was deliuered him from his preacher Vncle. Why now then cosen rerurne to your obiectiōs ād looke how they vrge ād what force they haue against this your declaration of tradition Nephew As for Adam's children I see that one man and one woman were the only witneses of such a thing as the partys to whom they tould it could hardly belieue it was so strange Nay them selues had so litle experience of those strange things which they tould that for anie thing we know they neuer as much as tasted of anie fruit in Paradise but of the forbidden tree And what care they had of anie Religion more thē to recōmēde God's seruice to their children and that only as lōg as they liued with them we know not so that it seeme's what they taught tooke no strong roote nor in manie For Noth the same answere may be giuen two of his sonnes parting shortly from him ether into farr countries or at least into such a distance as that they seldome came to see him Wherefore I perceiue there is a great difference betwixt the deliuerie of Christ's Gospell and of the law of God to those fathers of the old Testament Vncle. Your remarkes are good ones And in deede seeing we haue required that Tradition should haue the continuance of nature We must see that it be plāted accordingly which you haue well noted to haue beene performed in Christ's law but not in the tradition of the ould law the fathers and people of that time being much hindered by the great busines of the world's plantation Euerie mā seeking to plant countries build cities finde out commodities for the cōseruation of man's life Which were occupations farr different from the thoughts of heauen and things of the next world To this you may add that there was not then anie setled orders of Priests and men whose fūctiō should be to inculcate the necessitie of Religion into men's eares and harts which we knowe the Apostles had care to performe euerie where Againe there was no such correspondēce betwixt countrie and countrie in those times as hath euer beene amongst Christians specially by the mediation of a cheefe Bishop which Christ hath set amongst vs. And no doubt but these two last points be two maine and cheefe causes of the propagation and conseruation of Christiā faith You may yet add that euē the points of faith were not then able to worke vpon man's nature so powerfully as since Christ's comming according to our yesternight's discourse So that the roote and strēgth of Tradition being grounded vpon this that such a beliefe is fixed in peoples harts of seuerall natiōs the examples faile in three things First that the multitude was not capable of it it being so spirituall and abstract Secondly that it was not inculcated with that feruour of spirit assistance of the holy Ghost and abundance of continuall miracles as Christ's law was Thirdly that there was not a set forme and institution of Priests and Gouernors to ioyne all nations in communion for the conseruation of their beliefe Wherefore it neuer had the roote and nature of an vniuersall Traditiō And by these examples you may easily answere all other obiections of this nature And now I will leaue you least I should ouer wearie both you and my self Nephew You saie well vncle yet that I may be sure to haue fully cōceiued the maine drift of your instructions I pray let me see if I can make §. 15 The cōclusion of all our discourse IT was first your intention to giue me a rule how to gouerne my self in the choise of Religion Then you concluded that scripture could not be this rule Where vpon you laid me downe two waies how to resolue my self The first was that standing vpon the ground of prepossession there was no likelyhood or probabilitie that the Protestants arguments could be sufficient to ouer ballance the Catholikes because they must be conuincing cleerely or else were to be reiected And that the Protestants should bring anie cōuincing and demōstratiue arguments against the Catholikes there is no apparence Catholikes being more in number in qualitie greater schollers ād in life more vertuous And on the contrarie side Protestants hauing no principles or commāde which may make them agree amongst themselues And you shewd me that though this persuasiō did not euidently conuince the Catholike faith to be true yet did it manifestly proue that the Catholike was to be chosen by an vnlearned man Your second waye was by giuing a direct proofe that the Catholike doctrine is true which you did in threeseuerall manners First by shewing that it was no hard matter for the Catholike church to conserue the truth of hir doctrine if she were carefull which histories plainely shew she was Secondly shewing that nature doth force men to haue care of Religiō and therefore that it was impossible anie error should so creepe into the church as that it should be vniuersally receiued the verie nature of man and human affaires contradicting it's progresse Thirdly shewing how the church now relying vpon Tradition must of necessitie haue euer done so and that if it hath euer done so it could not let anie falsehood creepe in nor suffer anie error to be generally admitted This is all I remember sauing the soluing of some obiections and the discouering of some of my impertinent answeres which I hope you will excuse and forget If I haue missed I pray direct me Vncle. Yo haue taken good notice and I thinke my paines well bestowed only I would intreate you to make a litle reflection and comparison betwixt the knowledge which we haue by these meanes and that which scripture afforde's vs if we handle it in a litigious waye as in cōtrouersies we necessarily must And you shall finde that Tradition is grounded vpon that which all men agree in and vpon that which is common to all ages all nations all conditiōs But the knowledge which we haue by scripture is grounded vpon that which is different in euerie nation Hence spring's an other differēce to wit that the one is planted in nature and in what God created in man the other in what men them selues framed and that not by designe or art but by custome and chance Out of which againe ensueth that the one is capable of necessitie and consequently of a perfect demonstration as all naturall things are the other not The one is fixed vpon vniuersalls the other vagabonde in particulars As for example who is able to demonstrate that a word in controuersie hath no other sense then that which is necessarie for his pourpose Or where the constructiō may be made diuers waies that the true one is that which he pleadeth Who can demonstrate amōgst varieties of texts which was in the Autograph Or that the copies we haue are not defectiue And the like which ordinarily are necessarie if we will euindently conuince our intent out of the place we choose On the other side To shew that whole multitudes of seuerall nations cannot misse in what hath beene a thousand times ouer ād ouer inculcated vnto them That a world cannot conspire to cosen their posteritie That mankinde cannot accepte of a doctrine against an euident principle which they likewise hold and mātaine these being the maximes Tradition depende's on to shew I saie these things there needes no deepe learning being both knowne of them selues and also as necessarily conioint and dependant of man's nature as his other naturall actions be and therefore may beare as good a demonstratiō as they which if we haue not it is not through anie defect or incapacitie of the subiect but through the want of our looking into it and that ether because we doe not take the right waie or that we doe not bestow sufficient paines in the prosecution of it So that in fine although the Roman church had fallen which is impossible into those errors which the Protestants pretēde yet were it better for a man to content him self with the Good that remaines in it then to cast him self into an endlesse and fruitlesse maze of disputations with trouble to all the world ād that to no other effect then to make people vnsetled and by their vnnsetlednesse to neglect Religion But God's wisdome as you see hath prouided an Euidence for those that will take paines to seeke it 1. that the pointes in controuersie are of importance and necessarie to be knowne 2. that they cānot be so knowne by scripture as is requisite for decisions against contentious men and 3. that they may be certainely knowne by resting quiet in the bosome of the Catholike church which God of his mercie giue you and me grace to doe both liuing and dying
THE DIALOGVES OF WILLIAM RICHWORTH OR The iudgmend of common sense in the choise of Religion Printed at Paris by IOHN MESTAIS 1640. TO THE READER M. r William Richworth borne in Lincolneshire studied in the English College at Doway there was made Priest and afterwards discharged the place and office of Prefect with much commendation all which time he was knowne by the name of Charles Rosse Comming into England he liued in diuers places with good esteeme vntill the yeare 1637 in which he dyed He was a man curious in Diuinitie Controuersies Mathematikes and Physicke but cheefely delighted in Mathematickes and by the name of Robinson entertained correspondence with the learned Oughtred He affected the rigor of mathematicall discourse euen in his controuersies as you may perceiue by this worke and thought no man truly learned but who aymed to doe the like These Dialogues he framed some yeares agone and shewed them to seuerall friends of his which finding they gaue content to diuers iudicious persons he intended to enlarge and publish theÌ„ but hindered by some occasions so that he could not finish and perfect them before his death he bequeathed his papers and this charge to a friend to whom he had often communicated his designe Here now you haue them deuided into three parts The first containing and declaring how and what points of controuersies are of necessitie The second shewing that scripture alone is not a fitt iudge nor able of it self to decide controuersies in Religion The third and last demonstrate's an euident and infalible meanes of determining and deciding all questioÌ„s and disputs of faith and Religion which God grant may be to your profit THE APPROBATION HAuing perused and considered by leaue and order from our sacred facultie of Diuinitie a litle treatise entitled The Dialogues of William Rishworth or the iudgment of common sense in the choise of Religion containing 36. sheetes in writing and 24. printed in 12. we doe certifie that there is not anie thing contained therein against Catholike faith or Christian pietie but manie rationall and connaturall proofes and motiues of them both And therefore doe iuge it truly worthie our Approbation and the publicke Paris this 7. of Aprill 1640. E. TYRELL H. HOLDEN The Printer's ignorance of the English tongue hath caused manie errors in the print amongst others these Pag 87. or cor of 101. at cor a 102. the cor these 109. hath cor haue 112. soe be saued cor some may be saued 119. that cor that 's 120. hath cor had 124. waine cor waiue 132. thenth cor tenth 144. and in Gouer c. cor in Gouer c. 149. hat cor that 151. o cor of 152 n cor an 153 th cor that 〈…〉 the cor readie 162. v vs 187. Religions order cor Religious 236 acd cor and 254. posseth cor passeth 309 ou cor out 386. althought cor althoug 434. dockrine cor doctrine 450. you cor your 481. such cor such 482. sitle cor litle 501 6 af cor of 527 prrt cor part 529. he cor the â—â—7 〈…〉 cor is not nor c. 545. de cor doe 546. theses cor these 553. pleasont cor pleasant THE FIRST DIALOGVE What pointes of controuersie in matters of Religion are to be Knowne of necessitie This Dialogue containeth 12. parts or paragraphes 1. THe Preface or Introduction 2. Whence procedeth and dependeth the necessitie of knowing pointes of Religion 3. That the pointes wherein the Arrians and other antient Heretickes differred from the Catholike church were pointes of necessitie to be knowne and belieued 4. That the beliefe of the Hierarchie establissed by Christ in his church is of necessitie 5. That the administration of Sacraments by the Hierarchie is likewise of necessitie 6. That the resolutions of Generall Councells are to decide controuersies both in pointes of necessitie and of indifferencie 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of necessitie 8. That some things may be of necessitie in a lower degree and in particular the vse of pictures 9. That the honnoring of Saincts their Canonization and the institution of Religious orders are necessarie in this same degree 10. That the Sacraments of order and Matrimonie the Generalitie of Ceremonies and the opinion of miracles are alsoe necessarie 11. That prayer for the dead Extreme vnction and Confession bee likewise necessarie 12. That good institutions are not to bee giuen ouer for smale inconueniencies the abuses are to be mended not the things taken awaie and therefore that the partie Which broke communion is 〈…〉 to the other §. 1 THE INTRODVCTION NEPHEW Come vncle this is the first day of the new yeare and therefore me thinke's it would be a great offence to imploye it wholy in Pastimes and not giue some hansell to vertue by some serious and good discourse which may engage and serue me for à Paterne of well doeing all the yeare after Wherefore though it be late yet I know vncle that you whose well spent age and trauailles haue made you able and fitt to giue light and guydance to my vnsetled yeares can presently giue me such a lesson as that I shall easily better my selfe thereby all the yeare following Vncle. I should be verie vnkind louing cozeÌ„ if I should refuse such a request to you whom the mariage of my nee rest and dearest kinswoman maketh me loue and tender as one who hath myne owne blood and ioye in his care and custodie But as I am glad to see this inclination in you which I hope will strengthen with your age so doth the choise of the time you make being now the hoatest season of the day for gaming make me wonder at your vnusuall temperance Nephew Yesternight was the end of the last yeare and so I made euen with the world nor haue I as yet begun againe and therefore I tooke occasion to withdraw my self when the companie sate downe to playe with intention to bestow somewhat better the litle that 's left of this good day Vncle. Why then cozen I thinke I know my theame you lost all your monies yesternight and now you are wearie with looking on others all this day and therefore I must tell you how damageable and fruitlesse a thing play is especially to yong gentlemen who are coming or newly come to their estats speake plainely sweete cozen is it not so Nephew In deede Vncle for the first part you haue hitt verie right but for the latter I shall entreate you not to touch vpon that string at this time at least vntill the twelft-day bee passed For my father promised me monies when myne were lost and you know how sweete reuenge is so that I shall be in a better dispositioÌ„ to heare you discourse of this subiect after Christmasse when all the companie is gone What you should now saie of this matter would be I feare a bitter and distastfull pill without effect my disease being at this present in it's crisis Anie thing els will
to be suspected as not true to anie authoritie though he professe to acknowledge it Vncle. Softly cozen softly there 's nothing more frequteÌ„ amongst men then through passion and ouersight to forsake their owne principles and contradict in one matter what them selues confesse in an other And therefore although it be true by coÌ„sequeÌ„ce of reason that who soeuer doth rise against the church in this kinde may vpoÌ„ the same grounde and principle be false to anie other authoritie or gouerment yet vpon other reasons or by not seeing the consequence of his fact he may likewise be true and faithfull And therefore it were rashnesse to condemne for this reason alone those truths which such an one may perhapps mantaine in other matters Howsoeuer is not our coÌ„clusion manifest that there is no place for Ifs and And 's in our case where there can be no euidence brought against a pointe of doctrine which the highest Tribunall and Iudgment vpon earth hath alreadie decreed But suppose some one or few of these innouators had Euidence on their side yet the vulgar people whom they putt on to mutinie cannot haue it no nor anie certaintie that these their ring leaders haue Euidence being not able to compare vnderstandingly the worth of diuers men in a busines which surpasseth their capacitie And therefore this common people in such a case must neede 's proceede and doe whatsoeuer they doe vpon passioÌ„ surprise or interest And consequently those innouators who moued caried and pressed them therevnto cannot be excused from being culpable of temeritie obstinacie and Archi-Rebellion Yet as a Prince doth some times coÌ„descende to his Rebellious subiects that he may gaine time and so bring them to reason as Roboam's wiser Councell thought fitt to giue eare to the cryes of the communities for once that they might serue him euer after So I doubt not but the church both may and will relent some times a litle to establish hir Gouerment and good order more strongly an other time Nor is she to be reprehended if contrariewise she be rigorous vpoÌ„ occasions to witt when she see 's that relenting weaken's hir authoritie and doth rather increase then assuage the mutinie But what is now and then conuenient to be done that belong's to them who are in place to iudge And for vs to obey and sâ—ill suppose they doe the best Nephew Hitherto vncle me thinke's I am well satisfied but there 's a maine difficultie about the diuersitie of the rule of faith I pray tell mee doe you not thinke §. 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of extreme great necessitie FOr we professe you know that tradition or the receite of our doctrine from father to sonne is our cheefe authoritie and our prime motiue of faith All others will acknowledge no other rule then their owne interpretatioÌ„ of the scripture This in my minde is the most important question of all the controuersies in Religion and vpon the resolution of this pointe doth rely and depende all other disputs and difficulties of christian faith nay eueÌ„ our being truly and properly Christians or faithfull For if Christ was a lawmaker not euerie one who professeth his name but who obserueth his law is truly a Christian What it is to be a Christian And if Christ haue sett downe a certaine rule or manner and certaine Magistrats by whom we are to know this law whosoeuer doth not follow that rule and acknowledge those Magistrates cannot be said to obserue his law and consequeÌ„tly professe Christ's name wrongfully Vncle. Doe you thinke cozen that who doth not obserue Christ's law is no Christian what then shall become of sinners shall none of them be ChristiaÌ„s nor of the church of Christ you will make a church of only Elects or Predestinates as the Puritants doe Nephew It may be I goe to farr yet certainely who doth not keepe Christ's law or professe to keepe it is no Christian But then me thinke's I goe to farr on the other side for all those that professe Christ's name doe likewise professe to keepe his law how litle soeuer they doe Vncle. Why then cozen I will helpe you out and open the state of the question vnto you First you must know that this word Ecclesia in it's primitiue sense signifieth a meeting or coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of meÌ„ called out of a greater multitude What is a church as a Councell or Senate is And becaus the first ChristiaÌ„s were called in that manner by Christ and his Apostles Ioh. 15. Ego vos elegi de mundo therefore we properly and deseruedly call the multitude of ChristiaÌ„s a Church Now a multitude called to gether is not only and simply a multitude which may importe confusion but a multitude gathered together and vnited wherein consist's the vnitie of the church If you aske wherein this multitude we speake of is vnited t' is knowne that t' is to doe the will of the caller who being Iesus that is sauiour or Director to saluation their calling must be to walke the paths of saluatioÌ„ And sithence we haue no other Maister of our saluation but Iesus Christ t' is euident that the vnitie of his church must consiste in the obseruance of his law Secondly you are to note that there are two sortes of vnities the one of similitude the other of connection We saie all men are of one nature that 's an vnitie of similitude we saie likewise all the parts of a man though dislike in themselues make one man there 's an vnitie of connectioÌ„ Now if the church of Christ had beene to continue only for his owne or his Apostle's time the former vnitie would haue serued Nay euen now if all the Christians who liue at this day doe and performe the same things practize the same faith and good life and vse the same Sacraments This vnitie of similitude would suffice to make the church of Christ one for the present but could not make it subsiste and continue there being no connection amongst the parts and members of this multitude to make them sticke together Wherefore Christ hauing planted a multitude of faithfull which he intended should subsiste and continue for manie ages no doubt but he hath giuen them such an vnitie as is necessarie for coÌ„tinuance Thirdly therefore you must note that there are two sortes of multitudes in this world which subsiste and continue the one naturall as the parts of a liuing creature the other morall as the members of communities or commonwealths and both haue their proportionall vnities For the first we see that in plantes all the members haue a due connection to the roote from which being cutt of the part dyeth for want of continuitie In other liuing creatures we likewise finde at hart or some thing else that supplie's it's function by connectioÌ„ wherevnto euerie part receiueth life and subsistence and whose passage or communication with that hart being stopped and cutt off the part by litle and
conuenient mantenance 2. to haue an equall conuersation with their subiects 3. to giue example of the due and true vse of wealth and 4. to breede a conuenient respecte of their qualitie and persons in those whom they are to gouerne by their persuasions and authoritie And by these rules it may be easily knowne when the Clergie's riches are excessiue You will saie perhapps that the Clergie's authoritie ought to be grounded vpon their learning Why the Clergie ought to haue Wealth besides vertue wisdome and cheefely vpon their vertue And t' is true but those whom they are to guide and direct hauing not for the most part eyes to see and iudge cleerely of such internall qualities but generaly esteeme of the inward man by the outward apparence t' is necessarie that they likewise haue those exterior helpes For your third and last obiectiō I could quitte my self in a word and tell you I intende not to iustifie the practize of anie but only the tenets of the Catholike church And if at anie time ether Clergie or Religious should bandie against the state or common wealth it were the fault of the men and not of the institution in which case God hath left meanes to curbe and punish them for the Clergie being an essentiall and principall part of the cōmō wealth as well as ether the Nobilitie or commons t' is the same case for all three And such an acte were to be imputed to the weaknesse of man's nature as well in the Clergie as in the other two And so I hope you are now content for this pointe Nephew I am for the Clergie and see you haue reason but for Religious orders t' is not the same case for nether is there the like necessitie of them as of the Clergie nor are they anie publicke part of the common wealth but only priuat institutions within it Besides I haue heard wise and experienced men saie that Religious obedience is easily turned into an instrument of faction For their subiects being bound vnder paine of damnation to obey their superiour in anie thing that is not manifestly sinne it giue 's the superiour a mightie commande ouer the whole bodie specially if it be purely monarchicall and that one man gouerne all and thereby a maine power to swaye gteat multitudes at his will and pleasure And I heard not lōg agoe an able man who hath beene imployed of late by our state in Catholike Countries saie that Princes some times were vehemently affraid of their puissant combinations and held it no smale point of pollicy to imploye and engage Religious orders in their interests of state Whereas for the Clergie they feared them not hauing no such obligatiō of obedience amongst them but only according to the Canons nor anie dangerous dependence of forraine states but euerie man for him selfe and therefore vnable to doe the state anie great ether seruice or preiudice by anie factious intelligence abroad Vncle. Lord cosen how different is the truth from the common opiniō of the world The truth is cosen Religious men are gouerned by vowes and rules or constitutions their vowes make them Religious their rules are directiōs for their liuing in peace and vertue Their vowe of obedience which you speake of reacheth only to the spirituall education and progresse of their subiects their rules are for the rest If their vowes did reach to their temporall gouerment then I confesse they were no Religious vowes but were to be suspected of factious cōbinations and both church and state might and would be jealous of them but t' is not so and therefore they are laudable and no waies hurtfull in a common wealth And for the Religious man's rule which only and not his vowe binde's him to all temporall subiection t' is of no great importance nay some of them professe that their rule obligeth not in conscience as the canon and ciuil law doth no not vnder a veniall sinne Wherefore you see t' is farr from Catholike Religion to patronize anie banding against ether church or state and so farr that euerie Deuine will tell you that obedience in such a case is damnable both to the commander and obeyer Nay they will tell you that if anie Religious order were come to that height of ambitiō which God forbid as to bend their aymes and endeauours generally to the preiudice of the church or state seeking to to ruine the antiēt and lawfull gouerment of ether of them to sett vp their owne that in such a case it were a sinne to enter into anie such order and that the vowes of such as should be alreadie professed therin would not oblige thē to obedience nor could such a institute be truly esteemed a Religious institute And now I hope you are fully satisfied I know there be diuers obiectiōs besides these which you produce but ether they pitch vpon abuses in stead of vses as these doe or else they ayme to take awaie the substance of a thing because of some accidentall harmes which fall out in the vse and practize of it As if one should forbid iron tooles by reason some times there happene's mischeefe by them not weighing the vtilitie with the harme Wherefore the Protestants what soeuer they hold and saie that they doe not condemne Catholikes which according to there rule of th' Errabilitie of all mē and of the libertie they assume vnto them selues they are bound to doe yet in effect and in practize they doe it And must needes or else deserte their pretences and disputes with the Catholike church at the verie beginning For example if Luther or Caluin were vrged Is the vse of reuerencing pictures Idolatrie or no They must of necessitie answere yes or else they are convinced to breake from the present church whereof they are yet apart without a sufficient cause If they be farther pressed Can you euidently conuince that t' is idolatrie or may it be probablely mātained that t' is not If they acknowledge they cānot then they are oppressed againe If it be but peraduenture yes peraduāture no why doe you make a schisme and diuision in the church and not submitte your selues to the beliefe of your forefathers and of the present vniuersall church If they reply that whē nether part is certaine then each one may hold what he thinke's fitt You vrge them againe is this your reply certaine can you conuince it euidently or is it but only probable if only probable they are still in the same snare if certaine and euident they might haue said so of the first proposition But in deede it were against common sense and too ridiculous for anie priuat man to vndertake to make an Euident conuiction and demonstration against the generall beliefe of the vniuersall church for so manie ages And thus you see that these men who cannot cōuince anie thing against the Arrians Nestorians Pelagians Berengariās and the like though condemned manie yeares agoe by the Catholike church and thinke all probable that a
a perfect beleeuer that is a Catholike Which is as much as to aske §. 13 How scripture doth determine controuersies NPEHEW How should I know that vnlesse I were able to prooue my Religiō out of scripture or at least that I were able to giue a iudgement of all that is in scripture Which is beyond my capacitie Vncle. Then I will tell you cozē there are two meanes to make one a Catholike or a true and perfect belieuer The one by shewing euerie point of our faith in particular And this I dare not saie that our common and ordinarie manner of reading or hearing scripture is able to doe for we see those who write of controuersies doe alledge but few places nor those vnauoidable nether for some pointes of Catholike doctrine Nor is it to be expected Because man's nature being euer to add to what is alreadie learned And seeing likewise that long practise maketh men perfect in all arts There being no prohibitiō to perfect in some sort the instruction of the faithfull the oeconomie of the church and some such other things which the oppressed Primitiue church could not bring to perfectiō no maruelle I saie if these and the like things can not in particular be shewd in the scripture but shall therefore I know not who rise vp and exclame these things be superstitious hurtfull to the faithfull ād make a schisme to destroy them Who doth not see that this were plaine faction and Rebellion The other meanes or waye to make one a Catholike is by some common principle as if by reading of scripture wee finde nothing contrarie to the Catholike tenet or practize which our Aduersarie call's in question or also if wee finde it commēded there in generall or the authours and obseruers of it praised and extolled And in this waye I doubt not but a sensible and discreete reading of scripture at large may and will make anie true student of it a perfect beleeuing Catholike so he proceede with indifferēcie ād with a minde rather to know scripture then to looke for this or that point in it But now can you tell me cozē how it cometh to passe that sithence by an exact and particular examinatiō of the words of scripture these truths cānot be conuinced and beaten out of it how I saie is it possible that by a common and ordinarie reading of it these truths should appeare for that cānot be in the summe which is not in the particulars Nephew I can tell you that there is the same difficultie in the diuers sights of the walle which you made me experiēce but euen now but to yeild you a good reason ether of the one or the other that passeth my vnderstanding Vncle. Haue you not seene an inuētion of the Architects who can so dispose pillars in a gallerie that setting your eye in a certaine position you shall see the figure of a mā or a beast and walking a long the gallerie to goe to it it vanisheth awaie and you shall see nothing but pillars Or haue not seene a silinder or pillar of glasse before which if you laie certaine papers full of scrawolles and scrables and looking into the pillar you shall see the picture of a man or the like As these are dōne so it happeneth in our case both in the eye and in the vnderstanding For the art of these things is that certaine parts may so come together to the eye as that other parts ether by situation or by some other accident remaine hidden and that those parts which appeare being seene without the others will make this or that shape In our case likewise the quantitie of the seene parts exceeding the vnseene keepes the whole possession of the eye in the sight and of the vnderstanding in reading not letting the reste appeare And hence it is also that this common manner of vsing scripture is more secure then the exact ballancing of it For nether the varietie of translations nor the errours of copies nor the difficulties of languages nor the mutabilitie of words nor the multiplicitie of the occasions and intentions of the writers nor the abundance of the things written nor the different framinges of the bookes which be the causes of vncertaintie in a rigorous examinatiō haue anie such power as to breake the common and ordinarie sense or intention of the writer in generall as all bookes testifie vnto vs. And hence it is likewise that the holy fathers pressed scripture against the Heretickes of their times partly forced therevnto because the Heretickes generally will admitte of no proofe but out of the scripture but cheefly by reason their workes are diffuse and oratoricall befitting people vsed to orations and sermons as the Greekes and Romans were diuers of the fathers them selues bredd in that sort of learning Wherefore you shall haue them cite manie places some proper some Allegoricall some common all some times auoidable if they be taken seperatly but the whole discours more or lesse forcible according to the naturall parts or heauenly light more or lesse communicated to one then to an other yet still in the proportion of oratours who speake to the multitude and not to Socrates or Crysippus Wherefore the scripture in this kinde was a fitting weapon for them and the churche's continuing and reremaining in their doctrine sheweth that they vsed it dexterously and as it ougth to be vsed with relation and dependance of tradition Nephew Why then sir must all disputatiō of Religiō out of scripture be abolished For if there can bee no certaintie gathered out of it in a decisiue ād definitiue waie to what pourpose should a man ether alledge it or admitte it in disputes of Religion at least tell me I pray §. 14 What laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture VNCLE I am farr frō disliking disputation out of scripture so it be donne with those conditions which are fitting and which may bring the matter to some vpsh ott The first rule I would haue a Catholike obserue is not to dispute with a Protestāt vnlesse he promise to proue his position euidently and manifestly For since the Catholike knowes there may be certaine wittie probabilities and hard places of scripture brought against him it were madnesse in him to leaue his tenet custome optima legum interpres stāding for him and the practize of the church being on his side which is the greatest argument that can be brought to shew how and in what sēse the scriptures which that church hir self deliuereth are to be vnderstood it were I saie meere follie in a Catholike to leaue his tenent and accept of an other only for a probable and likely interpretation his owne being confirmed by that practize which maketh it more then probable And it is cleere the Protestant must needes pleade against possession for at the first breaking when the Protestants pretended to reforme the church she was surely in possession of those things which they pretended to take awaie and in
should be willing to heare of my wiue's misdemainours before they come to that height and euidence for mine owne caueat if which God forbid she should proue vntrue But there is a great difference betwixt giuing warning of likelyhoods and apparences of a mischeefe whereby it may be preuented and blemishing or staining my wiue's and myne owne honnour with the deepest disgrace that can fall vpon such an indiuiduall couple Besides I know the bond of loue and dutie betwixt man and wife to be so great as that ordinarie suspicious ought not to persuade 〈◊〉 â—reaâ—â— in so strong a knot the greater and harder effect must haue a more powerfull cause and it were a folly to thinke all proofes sufficient and befitting all cases And in my minde the reason is because no amitie nor fidelitie can subsists if such principles were suffered to be taught and mantained For how is it possible human accidents of them selues being intricate and variable and men now adays so wittie to doe harme and mischeefe but that euerie false tongue shall set dissention betwixt the neerest and dearest couples And mutinie and stir vp to sedition the most faithfull subiects against their Prince if lesse then morall euidence be sufficient to proue matters of this nature and qualitie Wherefore I doe not thinke his Maiestie would suffer his preachers to drawe their PediGree from Rome if he did not perswade him selfe they were able to bring satisfactorie proofes of their relinquishing that authoritie for this were to authorize a Rebellion against the court and state of conscieÌ„ce Which hath a greater force and power then pure temporall Allegiance this being grounded vpon oath and dutie both which receiue their strength and vertue from conscience If therefore you inteÌ„de to giue me full satisfaction in this pointe you must cleerely shewe vnto me that the Protestants proofes are insufficient Which though I doubt not of it seeing our men haue euer beene so readie to buckle with the Protestants euen vpoÌ„ most disaduantagious conditions yet I conceiue that this cannot be otherwise effected then by experience bringing them to dispute together Vncle Deare cozen I am hartily glad to heare you discourse so strongly and solidly it giue 's me great hopes of your future abilities But if you will haue patience your self shall be iudge of my question nor doe I thinke it needefull to haue recours to anie farther learning then common sense and naturall reasoÌ„ first therefore let vs see whether §. 3 Standing in likelyhood the 〈…〉 partie be greater more learned and more vertuous SVppose then you had a case in law of great difficultie and that you should consult in Councell a douzen or twentie lawyers reputed the best of the Preaâ—â—â—e or at least the worst of them farr beyond your skil to iudge whether he were not as able as the best And of these twenty seuenteene or eighteene of them should saie you would infalibly loose your cause if you tooke such or such a course in it the other 2. or 3. should as constantly affirme you would winne it in so much that the question would be brought to this contestation whether lawyers were more learned and skillfull To which side would you cleaue in this case Nephew If you suppose me vnable to iudge of their skill and learning and that they be all equaly reputed hoÌ„nest men though in deede I cannot well see how they can come to such an obstinate coÌ„testation if they be all as they are reputed I must needes choose the multitude aÌ„d ether take with the seuenteene or playe the foole notoriously I see well inough what you ayme at to wit that because Catholike countries are greater then Protestants iudgment therefore is to be giuen on the Catholikes side But I praye how shall I know that there be more learned men amongst Catholikes theÌ„ amongst Protestants Or that the Catholike Doctours be more learned them ours at home Ti 's true I know our learned men saie that they Protestants of other countries are not of the same Religion with ours heare in EnglaÌ„d yet I see they agree all together against vs what discordes soeuer they haue amongst them selues Vncle. Your fresh witts runne to fast Remember you were supposed to be ignorant of the proportion of their learning in your lawyers case and therefore choosed the multitude Wherefore as long as it is constantly confessed that there be farr more learned men Catholikes then there be learned Protestants so long the laye people ignorant and vnable to iudge of learnings must stand conuinced by the multitude of which this vulgar knowe's no more but that they are accounted learned by those amoÌ„gst whom they liue as ours are heare with vs. And to giue you farther satisfaction in this pointe There be more learned Catholikes then Protestants you know that maÌ„ for man by all likelyhood Readers of Diuinitie are the greatest schollers their exercise and profession specially if they be of manie yeares enabling and improuing them more then others who haue not the like occasion Of these compare the number which England afforde's to the multitudes which Catholike countries yeildes You haue beene in Paris where you might haue seene in some one howse or College more then be in all England whereof some haue taught Diuinitie a douzen or twentie yeares fiue or six actually reeding and as manie perhaps who hauing spent a great part of their age in that profession haue now giuen ouer I speake no secrets the most ignorant man that is may see and proue what I saie with his owne eyes ether in Italie spaine Germanie France or Low countries And I may adde that the time which one of theÌ„ spende's in studie is double to what one in our Vniuersities heare in England doth imploye These being married men hauing care of their wiues and Children and are saith S. Paul deuided 1. Cor. 7. one halfe to their bookes the other to their househould And you know wiues are no friends of bookes learning and children spring both from the braine and both require abundance of spirits and therefore not wel mached together And sure amongst Catholikes a learned resolution is rather to be looked for at a Priest's hands ordinarily speaking then from a maried man by reason his time breeding and imployment are more proportioned therevnto To these learned meÌ„ now liuing you may adde all that liued for manie ages not so vnlearned as the Protestants perswade themselues sithence the verie first beginners of Protestancie mett with their matches such as they ether did not dare to meete face to face or if they did they still came of with dishonor Wherefore euerie man that vnderstande's anie thing more then his owne home must needes grant that if number or likelyhood of persons may carie the cause the question in ended Wherevnto I could adde that reason which you mentioned how the Protestants in diuers countries are not of our Religion nether in respect of beliefe or Gouerment No
call Poperie And truly in his Dialogues which are sett out in English there 's more then enough to show that the Religion of his time was the same which we now professe And we that haue our cōuersion from him according to venerable Bede wee I saie who are descended from the Saxons neuer haue had anie Religiō but that which the Protestants call Poperie And therefore to vs English men it is most cleere that we neuer had anie Religiō since Gregorie the great 's time but Poperie And therefore if the Religion that then raigned was the faith of the Apostles it will euidently follow that Poperie was their faith Vncle. Surely not only writers but euen Records and Monuments are so thicke since the conuersion of those nations which ouer runne the Romā world that no peruerse man cā requite more euidēce And surely it was God's prouidence who setled as it were a new world and purged the old whilest Religion could yet looke backe and see hir head as it were with one vewe But I hoped you would haue induced a farther consequence and applyed the argument to later ages Nephew I am affraid these calculations may ouer reach me for I fee the father and the sonne 's age doe concurre in some part and therefore by counting them seuerally the number of yeares will be greater then in deede ought to be allowed Vncle. You saie well and therefore we will only take that number of yeares which the father ordinarily liueth before the birth of his sonne As if the sonne be supposed to be 20. yeares of age when the father testifieth and the father 60. Which you see is verie cōmon and so the number of yeares of one descent will be 40. Which is the number we put But if the father be 80. when the sonne is 20. then the number of one descent wil be 60. Which though it be some what great because it is rare that a man hath a child at 60. yet t' is not so rare but a thousand may bee found in a competent extent as in the Kingdome of England and this number is amply sufficient for the effect we desire for fiue descents of 60. yeares make 300. yeares And hauing tould you how a generall practize of anie countrie is knowne by a kind of self seeing for fiue descents which include's at least 200. yeares it will follow that coūting downe frō Christ time to ours by two ages at a time we may frame our discourse thus As those who liued in the beginning of the third age could certainely know they held the Apostles doctrine so those who liued in the beginning of the fift age could certainely know they held the doctrine of those of the beginning of the third age that is the doctrine of the Apostles And by the like cōsequēce those of the 7. age will be certaine they are in the same faith of those of the fift and those of the 9. in the faith of those of the 7. And so to our verie selues And all are certaine that they are in the faith of the Apostles The reason of this consequence is because two ages is not so great a space but that certaine knowledge of publicke and generall chāges through a kingdome much more through manie may be easily had nor yet are two ages so litle as that a great errour could lurke vnseene and lye smoothered for so long a time We therefore who now liue in communion with the Roman church know certainely that our forefathers of the 16. and 15 ages did conceiue that this faith and doctrine which we hold did I saie conceiue and thinke it to haue descended vnto them from the Apostles And we know likewise that they could not conceiue and thinke so but that they knew the 14. and 13. ages did belieue the same Nor those of the 14. and 13. ages could not haue the same beliefe vnlesse they had seene and receiued it in and from the 12. and the 11. age And putting all these together the certaintie whereof is immediatly founded in this our age you see they comprehēde six ages if we put 40. yeares to a descent and will comprehende 8. or 9. ages if we put 60. to a descent So that two or at must three such cōpositiōs will reach beyond Christ's birth And therefore we doe not nor cannot want euidence but eyes to see it Nephew Your discourse will be good supposing the pointe in cōtrouersie be some publicke and great matter or a notorious change in the face of God's church But why might not some speculatiue pointe creepe in without being taken notice of such as was the pointe of the Arrians or Pelagians if there had not happened with all so great an opposition and quarelling as shaked almost the whole church why no neW point cā creepe into the church without a great change Vncle. There be two reasons why no pointe of Christian doctrine can be so smale as to creepe in without a great change The one is because Christian doctrine is a discipline whose parts are so knit together as that one thred cānot be broken but it will rauell through manie stiches As frō th' Arriā heresie denying Christ to be God it would follow no Trinitie and so Christians would easily become naturall philosophers and Pagans no Incarnation that is no God and man in one person All the payeres and adorations which the church had vsed hitherto were to be changed The forme of baptisme were to be altered And thus we might goe through the most part of Christian doctrine if we looke into the sequels of Arrianisme And such like consequences may be deduced out of Pelagianisme and out of almost all othet heresies which haue not runne beyōd all face of Christianitie because they were quickly opposed and so hindered from shewing the serpent's taile which lurked behinde The other reason is because no new doctrine can preuaile in the church of God without impeaching tradition the rule of faith for that being once broken and reiected by the same right and principle by which they professe one errour they may professe anie And you see the disciples of Heresiarckes neuer faile to grow worse thē their Masters Luther broke the Ice by appealing to scripture Suinglius went farther then he th' Anabaptists exceeded the Swinglians the Adamistes passed th' Anabaptists the Socinians the Adamistes and some went beyond Christianitie others euen beyond common sense wherefore it is impossible anie breach should be made in the church without a maine and notorious chāge in the whole face of Christianitie Nephew I see now vncle it was not without cause you asked me what time the Apostles imployed in teaching Christiā doctrine to some one Prouince or Countrie your whole discourse seeme's to depende vpō this that the Apostles did not barely tell the faithfull what Christ had donne and taught bud did inculcate and beat it into thē both by words and actions invring thē to the practize of their beliefe their
haue the same effect yea nature it self and it's Author would be ouercome if such long violence could so oppresse it as to extinguish it It being nature's cheefe flower and greatest treasure planted by the expresse handy worke of the omnipotent and wise framer thereof Nephew Your discourse seemee's good for I see that meÌ„ who in a case of great importance will not be content with what is proportionall to their capacitie but seeke a certitude so great as them selues are not capable to iudge of being not beaten to thoses sciences in which such certaintie is vsuall those men I saie must needes come short of what they desire if truly they doe desire it for I belieue the affectioÌ„ of wealth pleasure or some fore-made iudgment doth carie them against the simple and plaine directioÌ„ of free reason How soeuer vncle seeing it was so easie for the church to haue beene conserued entire in faith me thinke's it should not be hard to shew in effect and in particular from age to age that it hath beene conserued Vncle. If we could proue that Bishops ether in Generall or Nationall Councells had once in two or three hundreth yeares taken care that no corruptioÌ„s should be introduced this might be effected but that depende's vpon bookes 〈◊〉 and historie which you and wil not now medle withall Nephew I belieue those histories are not so doubtfull but that generally Protestants doe aÌ„d will acknowledge theÌ„ And by my pore skill I know that there neuer passed 300. yeares since Christ's time without a Councell and without condemning some hereticke so that t' is cleere the church hath had sufficieÌ„t care in this kinde Yet because I haue heard your self complaine of the slouth of men who seeke not into the grounds of scieÌ„ces and often saie that fair more theÌ„ is might be knowne if the principles were rightly laide for it and the waie trodden nay that all God's workes hang so together by connection of causes and effects as that there 's no effect whose cause by diligence might not be found I must therefore intreate you to condescende a litle euen to the hardnesse of those men's harts who require more in this subiect then in anie other and seeke the cause why the church and faith of Christ cannot faille For sitheÌ„ce we haue found by experieÌ„ce these 1600. yeares that it hath not so failed as that it hath not euer beene generally and vniuersally visible and hath both dured and florished thus long surely it hath some forcible cause and in deede such an one as can neuer faile but will still worke the same effect And this were to shew That noe great errour could creepe into the church of God VNcle Cosen you laie toâ—â— what aske vpon me Who knowe's why the world hath dured thus long Or why mankinde was not extinct manie yeares agoe And must I tell you why God's church hath not nor cannot faile I am ashamed to answere euerie licentious braine the negatiues of a wittie naturalist may pose the most learned Christian vpon earth Yet to content you I will endeauour aboue my strength but you must ease me a litle and answere me to what your self see 's euident First you know that the church being the Congregation of the faithfull cannot faile but by the losse of faith How faith is lost And faith may be lost two waies by ignorance or by errour For so we see a particular man who once had faith if he come to loose it t' is ether by negligence and not conning it and so forgette's it or else 〈◊〉 disswaded from it and induced to belieue some differrent doctrine So likewise to a multitude of men the one or the other must needes happeÌ„ or else they cannot be depriued of the faith which they once had And because pure ignorance is a meere negatiue or not knowing the first question I will aske you is Whether you thinke a people once instructed in anie Religion can so forget it as that they fall not into some other Religion â—â— but liue quite without anie Religion at all Nephew Truly I thinke it impossible both because I neuer heard of anie nation that had no Religion at all no not the Caniballs as also because I haue heard that absurde Religions haue continued from father to sonne for manie generations together and neuer left vntill an other Religion was brought in and then too with much adoe the people being loth to be drawne from their former beliefe Yet if one should confidently saie the contrarie why all people haue some Religion I doe not know how to conuince him Vncle. You must looke into the causes which make men Religious aÌ„d if you finde theÌ„ to be vniuersall and perpetuall you may be sure that all sortes of Peoples haue some Religion in theÌ„ though more or lesse according as these causes are more or lesse in force amongst them But lett vs knowe can you tell me what is Religion in generall as it is commone to both true and false Nephew I imagine Religion to be a conceite or persuasion of the people concerning one or more what is ReligioÌ„ in generall excellent natures which gouerne humane life giuing vs those goods which of our selues we cannot attaine vnto aÌ„d inflicting vpoÌ„ vs those paines whereof we doe not knowe the causes And this persuasion reacheth also to the manner and forme of pleasing this or these Gouernors and commanders Whereby to obtaine goods and eschew euills And the reason why I make this conceite of Religion is because I see these things are in all sorts of Religion and all authours which write of the Religion of what nation soeuer touch cheefely these pointes Vncle. Your remarque is good Which be the causes of ReligioÌ„ and Why it cannot perish and if you looke into your definition you shall finde the causes of Religion You saie Religion is a conceite of the Gouernors of man's life in giftes and punishments whose causes we doe not knowe Then you see Religion must needes be a faith for when we doe not know things we cannot make anie conceite of theÌ„ but by belieuing and trusting others whom we thinke know the things that we know not and therefore Religion in generall is taken vpon trust Farther you saie that ReligioÌ„ is a methode of pleasing those Gouernors whereby to get goods and eschewe euills so that the desire of goods and the feare of euills are the authors and causes of Religion we haue then hopes and feares for the will ignorance and a conceite of an other man's knowledge for the vnderstanding which be the parents of Religion Now thinke you cosen can these causes be defectiue and fayling in anie age Nephew Surely they cannot For it were no generation of men but beasts that were so doÌ„ltish and sottish as to see so manie goods and harmes which happen to all men wee know not whence and thinke that there were no cause thereof And therefore it is the
most easie and most naturall conceite that man can haue to conceiue that some thing is the cause of these goods and hurtes Now man's conuersation being cheefely with one an other men naturally apprehende all things to be donne by some vnderstanding thing as they see their owne actions are So that if there were a cōpagnie of men sprung out of the earth like Cadmus his people or raised out of emitts like the Myrmidons yet would they if they were truly men within a litle while frame them selues some Religion according as by chance or some one's apprehēsion or phāsie they should conceite their goods and euills to proceede from some visible or inuisible thing Wherefore I admire not that some people adored the sunne some the starrs others some rare men from whom they had receiued in their life time great benefits imagining that euen after death they were power full and beneficiall And surely it is much more impossible that a people which once hath had some Religion should quitte forget it and come to haue none at all for these causes will be euer knocking at their harts putting them in minde and driuing them into the cōceite of some God or Gouernor if therefore the effects of perpetuall causes must be euerlasting these causes of Religion to wit effects whose causes are hidden and the good and euill which come vnto vs by them being neuer awanting t' is impossible that Religion should euer cease Vncle. And thinke you not cosen that these same causes doe as well moue those who are setled in a faith or Religion to continue without changing their once receiued beliefe as well I saie as they doe keepe them from forgetting that Religion which they are once possessed of Nephew I confesse it seeme's euident to me that the change of Religion can not come by pure negligence and sleepinesse no more then the losse of it being these warnings of nature which force vs to Religion doe also continually call vpon vs to keepe our once practized faith and credulitie vnlesse there be greater causes to countermande it which I doe not see but may be easily found some times Vncle. Peraduenture not so easily as you imagine for an Errour is a persuasion of the minde And nothing can worke vpon our vnderstanding but it self and our will who soeuer therefore will make such a persuasiō must worke vpon one of these two The will you know is moued and weilded by hopes and feares the vnderstanding by reason and authoritie How error in bred in man Whence arise three waies by which such an opinion may creepe into mē's mindes 1. by bringing more reason for it thē cā be brougth on the contrarie side 2. by the authoritie of some so great as that their verdicts are held beyond examining and 3. by the power of some whose hands are full of paines and pleasures and who can thereby moue the will which being moued can make the vnderstanding belieue what she desire's Doe you know anie other meanes Nephew Not I vncle for I see that if I should bring anie other you would reduce it to some of these three But me thinke's such an opiniō might steale vpon the church at vnawares some obscure man broaching it at the first and others accepting of it by a kinde of negligēce and indifferencie to anie opinion or by too much credulitie not distinguishing right from wrōg though I see this touche's some what vpon authoritie and so will be reduced to that mēber of your diuision Vncle. It importe's not to what member it be reduced so there be no fourth waie But I though you had learned sufficiently alreadie to exclude this for what make's more notice to be taken of anie thing then that which changeth some publicke and vniuersall practize Looke but if anie one goe through the streete's in some strang and new fashioned apparell how all staire and gaze vpon him the verie boys leaue their playe to follow him and looke at him And therefore to saie such an Innouation can be brought in without being taken notice of is as much as to saie the cause of admiration or taking notice can be set before our eyes without working it's effect Which is to saie that fire and tow should lye together without burning or a stone hang at libertie in the aire without falling downe these be impossibilities in nature and are in the racke of those things against which nature folliciteth by hi◠continuall causes of hopes and feares which made you confesse but now that negligence was not a sufficient cause to produce the change of Religion Wherefore let vs see if by anie of these three waies which I haue proposed the change of Religion can happen Nephew Nay sir I will doe you the fauour to exclude one of them to wit the waie of persuasion or by alledging more reason against the true Religion then can be brought for it for seing truths beare witnesse to one another and that the Religion we speake of is supposed to be true t' is impossible that more reason should be brought against it then for it Nor is the greatnesse of anie man's wit who should stand to maintaine the error to be feared for this error being to passe through a great part of the world t' is not credible that one man should so farr surpasse in wit the rest of the world as to put them all from their stāding without contradictiō Or that in so much time as is necessarie for the spreading of such an error into the maine of the church no man should haue wit enough if not to bring more potent argumēts for the truth atleast to finde out the weakenesse and fallacie of those which are brought against it which would be sufficient to hinder the progresse of such an error for who is in possession of an opinion must haue an insoluable reasō to put him out of it if he be wise and constant Much more those who ground their tenets vpon receiuing them from their forefathers and hould all reason insufficiēt to proue their faith because of it's supernaturalitie and therefore ought more to harken to what was deliuered thē to anie reason which may seeme to vrge the change of what is knowne to be deliuered Thus much I confesse is cleere but why the authoritie of some one or more whose words are aboue examine or the power of some who hould's the balance of good and badd of paines and pleasures may not worke an error into the church that I doe not vnderstand Vncle. You haue drawne the question from an vniuersall to a particular for we spoke of a change betwixt two Religions in common and you speake of a change from a true one to a false one Yet this being sufficient for our intent I will add that if you had that conceite of the true Religion which much thought hath bredd in me to wit that t' is the most high wise rationnall conformable to man's nature to gouerment to all
guifts But this point concerne's not our present discourse Nephew I confesse I now cleerely see that the Christian church hath conserued it self from error supposing that the Pastors and Gouernors of it haue carefully taken notice from time to time of their forefather's doctrine and I am beholden to you for this lesson But may not the church haue beene neglected herein Though I scarsely haue courrage enough to aske you this question for I see you will answere me that nature must needes haue it's recourse and that howsoeuer at some times or places it may haue defects yet must it of necessitie at other times and in other places haue it's returnes and freshly renew it's care and be sollicitous of so great a good which cannot but fall out once within 5. or 600. yeares that is within the terme prefixed wherein she may discouer the doctrine of hir forefathers cōstantly held and generally deliuered to be the doctrine of Christ ād his Apostles Neuerthelesse if you could shew me that the church had in effect so conserued it selfe I should be more able to conuince a peruerse opponent and demonstrate §. 8 That the truth of Christian doctrine hath actually continued in the church VNcle Is it possible you should be so vnreasonable as to aske me to proue a thing which depede's of ma's will yet that you may see how great the workes of Almightie God are and how nothing is so variable but that he can fixe and make it constant I will endeauour to let you vnderstād as much as my self in this point so you will be attentiue and raise a litle your vnderstāding to answere me in the waie of rigorous discourse which you haue some experience in by the mathematickes you haue tasted Tell me then doe you thinke that if anie great congregation of men now liuing hold this maxime for their faith and Religion that nothing is to be held for certaine and as a reuealed truth but what they haue receiued frō their forefathers as a thing deliuered by hand to hand from the Apostles And that what soeuer is not so receiued is not immutable but may be altered if reason commande doe you thinke I saie that this Congregation could in this our age haue begunne to hold this maxime or that as they receiued the rest of their doctrine from their forefathers they must not also haue receiued this tenet Nephew Truly I cannot tell you for me thinke's it were absurde to receiue all the rest from their forefathers ād take this of new which is the rule of all the rest yet I doe not see it so cleerely as that I am able to conuince that t' is so Vncle. Why cosen let vs put the case that there were a Generall Coūcell of all Christendome sitting for example in the yeare 1600. And aftermuch disputation about finding a rule to setle matters of Religion they should agree that to receiue nothing but what had beene deliuered vnto them by hand to hand frō Christ and his Apostles were the best waie to end all disputations of Religion and there vpon decree that hereafter nothing should be held for certaine and immutable but what were so receiued And that amongst these Bishops one should rise vp and make this difficultie we cannot know that anie thing is receiued by hand to hand from Christ vnlesse our forefathers who liued in the last age 1500. haue deliuered it vnto vs as such which they cannot haue deliuered vnto vs but by one of these two waies ether because we knowe they had this same principle which we seeke here ro setle to wit that they tooke nothing for immutably certaine and of faith but what was so deliuered vnto them And then we know what soeuer they haue deliuered vnto vs for a matter of faith was like wise receiued by them or atleast they thought it to be receiued in the same māner and therefore we may be confident of it Or else they must haue declared vnto vs what is so receiued what not that the one part may be accepted by vs and established as matters of faith the other held in lesse esteeme and as no points of faith This secōd we know hath not beene done And therefore if our forefathers had not this principle how should we haue it For if they had it not and haue deliuered our doctrine and Religiō vnto vs without distinctiō we must of necessitie accept much for Religion faith and as receiued frō Christ which we know not whether it was so or no And therefore wee must ether willfully deceiue our selues and our successors accounting and esteeming things which were neuer receiued from Christ to haue beene receiued from him and so falsly deliuer them for such to our successors and consequētly ground both our faith and theirs vpon this vntruth that our tenets were receiued from Christ Or else we must content our selues as our forefathers haue done and setle no new ground of ending cōtrouersies in Religion If one I saie should make this difficultie in that graue Assemblie would it not puzzell them all and put them of from their resolution Nephew Truly vncle it could not chuse vnlesse they were obstinately resolued to damne thē selues and all their posteritie and that impudently in the sight of the whole world which would reproach them with so notorious an imposture Nor can I imagine how such a position though once begunne should take roote The whole world being able to see ād deteste the indignitie of it And because I foresee your drift I will grāt you may frame the same argument for anie age ād cōsequētly there is no age in which this resolutiō could haue beene first taken vp but only in such an one in which it was cleerely knowne what the Apostles taught and what they did not by witnesse from thē who had their doctrine from their owne mouths that is the verie next age after the Apostles So that we may euidently conclude that a church which now holdeth with vniuersall consent this principle which you speake of must of necessitie haue held the same from the next age after the Apostles Vncle. But can you now tell me cosen whether this cōgregatiō as long as it adhere's to this principle can receiue anie thing of this nature and qualitie cōtrarie to what their forefathers deliuered vnto thē vpon this same principle And note I pray I doe not aske whether they can receiue anie thing but what they apprehēd to be so but I aske whether they can receiue anie thing as such but that which truly is so deliuered that is whether they can be cosened in this questiō Whether their forefathers deliuered it vnto them so or no. Nephew T' is euident they cannot For although one mā may be deceiued in what is tould him specially at one time yet to saie whole nations are deceiued in what is tould thē not once or twice but what they are bredd and beatē to is as much as to saie all men are deceiued