prayer for the dead came from the Apostles then Tertullian could proue that oblation for the deade came from them To detest fasting on Sunday and to pray kneeling with diuerse like superstitions Tertullian referreth to the Apostles as well as prayer for the deade deny one and doubt of all the rest And whereas M. Allen vpon contemplation of Chrysostome wordes falleth into a hidden agony cryeth alasse alasse if he would consider what the same man writeth vpon the Epistle to the Philip. Hom. 3. he would not make so great mone the losse is not so great Procuremus eis aliquid auxilij modici quideÌ„ attamen iuuemus eos Let vs procure them some helpe in deede but small helpe yet let vs helpe them Loe M. Allen your owne doctor confesseth it is but smal help that can be procured by prayers almes or remembraunce of them at the celebration of the holy misteries You will say that soone after he sayth the Apostles that instituted such memory knewe that much commodity came to the deade Then see how soone he forgetteth him selfe when he followeth not the rule of holy Scripture Againe howe like you M. Allen that he alloweth not prayers nor the said memory to helpe them that were Catechumeni which were learning their catechisme and dyed before they were baptised S. Ambrose you say cap. 9. of this booke did pray and offer for Gratianus which was but Catechumenus and dyed before he was baptised Againe how agreeth this with your catholike doctrine which you boast is so well ordered to your handes that Chrysostome denyeth them prayers and alloweth them almes for their helpe Catechumenos verò neque isto solatio dignamur sed omni huiusmodi destituti sunt auxilio vno quodam dempto quo nam illo pauperibus illorum nomine dare licet vnde illis non nihil refrigerij accedet As for them that be Catechumeni we count them not worthy of so much as this comfort but they be destitute of all such aide except one What one is that we may giue some thinge for their sake to the poore whereof some refreshing shall come vnto them 6 But heare I pray you what notable wordes S. Damascen hath for the vtilitie and institution of these thinges The holy Apostles and disciples sayth he of our Sauiour Christ haue decried that in the dread soueraigne vndefiled and liuely Sacraments â—o he calleth the Masse there shoulde be kept a memoriall of those that haue taken their sleepe in faith the which ordinaunce vntill this day without gainsaying or controwling the Apostolike and Catholicke Church of God from one cost of the wide world to an other hath obserued and shall religiously keepe till the world haue an ende For doubtlesse these thinges that the Christian religion which is without error free from falshood hath so many ages and worldes continued vnuiolably not without vrgent cause those thinges I say are not vaine but profitable to man acceptable to God and very necessarye for our saluation Thus farre spake the doctor setting forth not onely his owne minde but the faith of a numbre of the peeres of Gods Church wherein to proue this doctrine to be catholike he fitly followeth the same way which Vincentius Lyrinensis gaue vs once for a rule to trye trueth by Prouing that it hath antiquitie as a thinge that came and hath continued euen from the beginning of the Christian religion declaring that it hath the consent of all nations because it is and hath bene practised through out all the costes and corners of the wyde worlde and last that it hath the approbation of the wisest and holyestmen that euer were in the Church of christ And more then all this that it shall so continue till the ende though it be for a time in some peculiar nations omitted because it is receiued into a parte of that worship of God which in the Church can not perishe 6 As for Damascene I know not wherefore his authoritie serueth but to fill vppe the number for neither is his credit nor his antiquitie comparable with the former we refuse not the rule of Vincentius Lyrinensis concerning antiquity so you can proue that it hath God to be the author the Prophets and Apostles As for witnesse vnder this antiquitie that which had an erroneous beginning shall haue a shamefull ending 7 And this prescription of trueth our aduersaires can not auoyde but with such vnseemely dealing as I trust they them selues now be ashamed of as all other reasonable men are For now let them come with brasen facies and blasphemous tounges and say that prayers for the deade be vnprofitable that the rites of the buriall be superstitious that to say the Masse and sacrifice to be propitiatory for the soules departed is iniurious to Christes death that the doctors praised the errours of the ignorant people of their dayes that they all erred and were deceiued that the Church of Christ hath bene ledde in darke ignorance till these our dayes let them bestowe these vaine presumptious wordes where they maye take place for nowe all wise men doe perceiue that all these haue their holy institution by Christ and his Apostles practised vniuersally in the primitiue Church embrased of all godly people and approued to be wholy consonant to Gods worde by the pillors of Christes Church who so consonantly agree together in this point as well for the practise and proofe as for the beginning therof that to dissent from them and trust in these reedes of our dayes were meere madnesse that are pufte to and fro with euery blast of doctrine that care not what they say so that they say not as other their forefathers sayed that had rather then they woulde geue ouer a singular opinion of their owne imagination refuse and denie the authoritie of so many notable wise auncient godly and well learned fathers whome we haue named Although we haue left out many of no worse iudgement plainely auouching these thinges to come into Christes Church and worship by the ordinaunce of his holy Apostles All which thinges if our aduersaries haue reade then they are in a most miserable and heuy taking that doe withstand an open knowen trueth and as I feare against their owne consciences too Or if they haue not reade these plaine assertions of all learned men sith Christes time then they are most impudent that so vainely bragge in a matter whereof they are not skillfull But I trust God will open their eyes and breake their prowde hartes to the obedience of his holy Church 7 Nay M. Allen your prescription is not yet proued that this geare came from Christ and the Apostles The oldest witnesse that you haue alledged fathered manifest fables vpon the institution of Christ the Apostles as you your selfe can not deny if you haue any conscience at all and therefore not sufficient to be credited for that you allege him Wherefore you may bestow where you list these swelling bragges
r. praeponeÌ„da 22. in a. r. in the. 24. vvhen r. vvheÌ„ the. 71.20 vvhere rea vvere and the 22. to reade in 78.26 that you â—avv a bastard church r. that you being a bastard church haue 87.34 Commentualls rea Conuentualles 91.32 that he rea then he 92.30 cultiued r. coÌ„tinued 97.1 your reade youres 99.13 there rea therefore 14. vinci reade vincè In the aunswere of a true Christian c. pag. 14. li. 6 for that r. theÌ„ 22.21 conseites r. conserues 23.19 they made a cushioÌ„ reade they made mariage a chushion 25.37 fast reade facte 26.37 canche rea couche 30.35 greatest rea great 31.1 reade instrumentes for the defence 46.33 for reade farre 47.30 sinnes reade sinner â—9 19 praedicate rea praeiudicate 64.37 fauteles r. fruictles 87.6 heauie reade hearie 89.2 as reade or 92.6 bitter reade better 95.31 paltinge r. peltinge 102.15 r. liklihodes nuÌ„bred 121.29 conuenientes reade conuenienter 127.13 r. to death a sinne not c. li. 28.10 rea to 139.34 vnrecoÌ„cyled reade that are reconciled 143.2 you reade her 151.27 hath rea hauing 156.5 can not reade can stande c. 205.29 to his brother rea to his brethren 210.14 faste reade facte â—24 31 reade forsakers 232.38 sorovving r. saying 238.10 clame r. exclame 248.1 an reade any 249.23 praie reade praied 255.19 Tecta reade Tecla 259.37 toti reade hi. 262.7 after vvritinges make a ful poinct l. 10. Troianus reade Traianus 14. BarlauÌ„ r. Barlaam 16. Ephraim r. Ephreem 265.27 and 29. Rhenamus reade Rhenanus 268.36 knavv rea knaue 277.17 shoulde seme reade as it shoulde seme 283.2 Capth r. Chapter 284.30 after decree reade concerning that vvhich vvas not c. 286.31 put out he 299.19 had reade hath 295.11 xemia rea xenia 307.8 mistrusted reade misconstrued 316.2 you vvil r. you vvil not 23. then rea thou 334.19 criall reade triall 335.31 put out in 347.1 same reade sunne right reade light 350.6 r. deceiueth c. 361.16 vnto reade in 361.29 profatam rea profoctam 364.31 vve before reade before vve 378.17 vindicemus reade iudicemus and line 37. either reade other 373.11 stringe r. springe 374.10 Consilio Meleuitano r. CoÌ„cilio Mileuitano 382.19 CommoÌ„ r. Cannon 386.31 degree r. pedigree 391.25 thou reade there 396.1 God reade man. 397.24 hidden r. sudden 399.15 as for vvitnesse reade for vvitnesses 406.6 the matter reade thy matter 409.32 make a full poincte after in deed and line 22. put out the full poincte after describeth 435.16 sparte r. sponte and line 29. superstition reade supposition 441.34 parleis rea paruis 443.2 vvhen rea vvhere 31. li. aliquid r. aliquod 447.2 strife reade stripe 455.33 named r. varied li. 34. shall rea should AN ANSVVER OF A TRVE CHRISTIAN TO A COVNTERFAIT CATHOLIKE The proposition of the Aduersarie CHrist did commit at his departure hence the testimony of that truth for which he died and the conuersion of the Nations to the beleefe in him to the true church of God which then stoode principally and almost onely in the persons of the Apostles and a fewe more that by their preachings and those afterward of their calling the Christian religion might be planted in all Nations beginning at Ierusalem and so proceeding to the coastes and corners of the earth AN ANSVVERE TO THE PROPOSITION I Graunt that our Sauiour Christ at his departure hence commaunded his Apostles as principal members of his Church though not the greatest part of it to preach the doctrine which he confirmed by his death vnto all nations beginning at Ierusalem and so forth according to his saying Goe therefore and teach all Nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost Teaching them to obserue all thinges what so euer I haue commaunded you Matth. 28. Whereuppon I chalenge the Papist that if he be able to proue that the doctrine of poperie is all that trueth and nothing but that trueth for which Christ dyed and which he commaunded the Apostles to teach I will acknowledge the popish church to be the Church of Christ. The first article conteyneth 3. demandes 1 First I aske of the protestant what Church that was which conuerted all these cuntries that be now Christian to the faith of Christ IF you meane by Christians true Christians and by the faith of Christ the true faith of Christ I answere only the true Church of Christ hath had the worde of God and sacraments as meanes which God vseth to subdue al nations vnto the obedience of the faith as was the primitiue Church of the Apostles which hath continued vnto this daye by succession not of personnes and places but of faith and truth wherefore if the Papist can proue that we holde not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ. But if by Christians and Christian faith you meane all them that professe the name of Christ in the whole worlde I aunswere that the true Church of Christ did not conuert them all for in Aethiopia there are yet people conuerted by the false apostles which taught circumcision and obseruation of the lawe in which heresie they continue vnto this day and it is manifest by all histories that the nations of the Alanes Gothes and Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians 2 And let him shew vnto me that euer his Church conuerted any people or lande in the earth from Idolatrie or Gentility or Iudaisme to the true Religion of Christ or that this his fayth was taught to any Nation in steede of true Christianity WE are members of that Church which conuerted all landes in the earth that are conuerted from Idolatry Gentility Iudaisme or heresie to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in steede of true Christiantie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the worde of God And at this daye the most parte of Europe is conuerted from Idolatrie heresie and Antichristianitie vnto the same true faith that we mainteine as in England Scotland Ireland France Germany Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia by publike authoritie in Spaigne and Italie a great numbre vnder persecution and tyrannie Also of the Iewes no small numbre are conuerted to our religion since the rising vp of the Gospell in our dayes 3 Or any Church but the common Catholike Church to haue don that and I recant BEcause you meane by the common Catholike not the true Catholike but the popish church First I denie that euer the popish church conuerted any people to the true faith Secondly I denie that the popish church hath conuerted all nations to the profession of Christ For it is shewed before that the false Apostles and Arians conuerted some nations to the profession of Christes name but yet to false religion And it is also manifest by histories that the Grecians whome the papistes counte no parte of their church but
schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all vnto the profession of the name of Christ which yet continue in their religion being neither the true faith nor yet popish religion As for the popish church as it is certeine that it hath peruerted and corrupted all partes of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion so it shal be harde for the papistes to proue that it hath conuerted any Nation from Gentility to the popish religion except some partes of Germanie and them by force of armes rather than by preaching and reaching as appeareth by the conuersion of Liuonia Anno Domini 1200. of Prussia Anno Domini 1254. and of Lithuania Anno Domini 1386. wherefore I conclude that seeing I haue shewed that our Church holding the true doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all nations to true religion and that the popish church hath not conuerted any people to true religion nor all people to the profession of the name of Christ this chalenger whosoeuer he be do the recant The second article conteyneth 4. demandes 1 I aske of him what Church it was which hath induced the Christian people through the whole worlde to geue most humble credit in all points to the holy bookes of the Byble I Aunswere it was the Church of Christ and not the Popish church which hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleued of all true Christians where soeuer they be although it be the office of the holy Ghost to open the hartes of men and to forme them that they may beleue the scripture to be true like as it is the office of the scripture or worde of God to trie and examine whether it be the spirite of God that perswadeth vs to beleue any thing so the spirite beareth witnesse to the worde and the worde to the spirite As for the popish church it coulde not induce the Christian people to geue credit to the scripture in all pointes because she is contrarie to the scripture in many pointes and euen in the cheefest pointes of Christian Religion namely in pointes concerning the glorie of God and the saluation of mankinde geuing the glory of God to dead men and dumbe Images and denying the mercy of God pourchased by the onely sacrifice of Christes death to be the onely cause of mans saluation Finally seeing it is manifest by the aunswere to the first article that the popish church did not conuerte all nations to the profession of the Christian faith it is euident thereby that the popish church did not induce all them that are called Christians to geue credit to the bookes of the holy Bible as this chalenger woulde haue it to be thought 2 VVhat Church hath had the discerning seuering of them from other writinges of all sortes THe Church of Christ hath not an absolute authority to allow or refuse bookes of the scripture but a iudgment to discerne true writinge from counterfaicts the word of God of infallible verity from the writing of men which might erre this iudgement she hath not of her selfe but of the holy Ghost as for the popish Church it can not be said to haue this iudgemēt of discerning the scripture of God from other writings not only because she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonical bookes of the scripture from the Apocrypha writings as appereth by receauing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. but also because she is so presumptuous as to compel men to beleue that Customes and traditions writinges of doctors decrees of Popes and Councells are equall with the authoritie of God his worde yea are of force to alter and change the lawe of God and the institution of Christ set forth vnto vs in the scripture And although she boast that she receaueth all the bookes of scripture yet this proueth no more that she is the Church of Christ than was the churches of the Arrians Donatistes Nouatians Euthychans other heretikes which receiued the Bible as well as the Popish church 3 VVhat Church hath had the custodie of them and most safely hath preserued them for the necessary vse of God his people and from the corruption of aduersaries as well of Iewes as heretikes of all sortes THe prouidence of God hath alwayes preserued the Scripture both from the violence of tyrants from the falshoode of heretikes and hath neuer suffred the true Church to be destitute of the necessarie vse thereof But the popish church hath not kept the scripture for the necessary vse of the people which hath so kept it in an vnknowen tongue that the people coulde haue no vse much lesse the necessary vse thereof wherefore if this be a note of the Catholike Church to kepe the worde of God for the necessarie vse of God his people it is plaine that the popish church is not the Catholike Church which hath kept the scripture so that God his people coulde haue no vse thereof And if the only custodie of the scripture from corruption of heretikes be a sure note of the Church why is not the Greeke Church the Catholike Church which vnto this day hath kept the scripture as safely as the popish church why are not other Estern Churches of Asia which neuer acknowledged the Pope or popish religion true Churches which likewise haue preserued the scripture as we haue seen of late that the newe Testament is printed in the Syrian tongue at themperours charges for the encrease of Christian faith among them And finally why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully than euer the Papistes And because they boast of safe preseruing of the scriptures all men that are learned in the tongues can testifie in how corrupt a Latin translation they haue kept the scriptures both of the olde and of the new Testament 4 And let the Protestant declare to me that their Congregation hath had from time to time or euer had right herein or any other Church sauing the Catholike Church and I recant OVr Congregation which is the body of Christ hath euer had both right and possession of the inestimable treasure of the word of Christ her heade as appeareth by this that our Church and Congregation beleueth nothing but that she learneth in it acknowledgeth that all thinges profitable to saluation are sufficiently conteined in it and finally in all thinges submitteth her selfe to the iudgemēt of it But the popish church which beleueth many thinges contrarie to the scripture teacheth many thinges beside the scripture necessary to saluation and refuseth to haue her faith doctrine and ceremonies to be iudged by the scripture neither hath neither euer had any right to the scripture though she haue neuer so many bookes of them in possession Wherefore these thinges considered this chalenger
VVhere did they gather as in Councells to try the trueth of doubtfull matters AS God gaue them respight from your tyrannie they had conference one with an other and as for doubtes they tried them by the worde of God and not by number of voyces as you do in your councells as for the places where they met is nothing at all materiall at Prage at Lyons at Merindol c. 7 How might Christian men iustly offended with some of their brethern haue sought out your officers or Congregation to make complainct of him YOu are void of all reason that in a persecuted church will require all thinges to be so formall and orderly as in time of peace and quietnes I could choke you with putting like cases of your Church If a number of Papistes be carried prisoners into Barbarie or Turkey what Sacraments what discipline what Iudgement haue they among them if one be offended with his brother how shall he come to your officeâ—s or to your Church to complaine In such cases where the ordinary authoritie of the Church is hindred by persecution or otherwise the rule of S. Paule 1. Cor. 5. may serue and ought to be obserued If any that is called a brother be a fornicator or couetous or an Idolater or a rayler or a drunkard or an extorcioner with such one eate not So that if a Christian be iustly offended with his brother he ought to absteine from his company And if he may haue ordinary authoritie he may complaine further 8 Or how if it had liked any man to haue ben baptized of them or to haue receiued the communion of them or to haue bene married of them or to haue ioyned them selues in Fayth and Religion to them how might I say that secret contemptible and vnknowne company be founde in this case HE must haue sought them out as well as he could if he had bene perswaded that they onely ministred the Sacraments Ecclesiasticall rites sincerely according to the word of God it were no great matter for him to find them seing he knew by whom he was so perswaded and of them might also be informed where he should haue them I maruell you are not ashamed to demauÌ„d these questions as though it were materiall to discusse whether of vs hath the Church to haue the Church so manifest that euery man may see it Doe you not remember how many schismes haue bene euen in the popish church more theÌ„ twenty and sometime two Popes at once sometime three sometime fower which of them should a simple Papist take for head of the Church especially in the 22. schisme which lasted 39. yeares one Pope sitting at Rome an other at Auinion either hauing his court either hauing and making Cardinals either cursing other Or in the 23. schisme when the question was of one of the highest pointes in all popery and is not yet throughly decided among them Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or the Councell aboue the Pope In the time of these schismes how might a man haue founde out which was the true Church which was Christes vicare in earth which had the right Sacraments and Sacramentalls to which Popes court should he appeale where did the principall Pastors sit in iudgement c. How should councells be gathered which Pope shoulde confirme their actes c When you are able to aunswere these questions for your owne church then you may better require them of ours As for that secrete contemptible and vnknowne company of our Church in the sight of the world was neuerthelesse manifest glorious and knowen to our Sauiour Christ and the liuely members of his body 9 If therefore you can shew me that any man euer sought Iustice or knowledge of trueth sacrament or faith or any helpe of Saluation at the Protestants secret and close congregation or any other where but of Gods knowen Catholike Church I recant ALthough it be to litle purpose to aunswere this demande because it is no reason to say these thinges hath not bene because chronicles make no mention of them yet that all men maye see how farre you ouershoot your selfe I wil partely satisfie your request Charles the great sought knowledge of the trueth of the sacrament of Bertramus Iohn Duke of Lancaster and diuers other noble men were instructed in our Religion by VVickleue The land of Bohemia was conuerted by Iohn Hus and Hieronym of Prage and sought the sacraments of them Finally you alwayes forget the Greeke church which you do not accompt parte of the Catholike church and yet you can not deny but men haue sought Iustice sacramentes faith c. of it Therefore if a man might trust you vpon your worde you recant The 10. article conteyneth in effect but 2. demandes 1 Moreouer I aske whether for all these many hundreth of yeares or euer els before there was any temporall Prince or Potentate that offered to be vnder God a minister of Iustice and an executor of Christian lawes in the right of your Congregation that euer maintained by lawes Ciuill or other your Faith and Congregation and I recant BEfore the general defection it is an easy matter to name you the Emperours and Princes which both offered to be ministers of Iustice in the right of our church and also mainteyned our faith and Congregation by Ciuill lawes as Constantine the greate Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Archadius Honorius Marcianus Iustinianus Mauricius and diuers other But when the kinges of the earth had committed fornication with the great whore of Babylon as the holy Ghost foresheweth Apoc. 17. and 18. it is no preiudice to our cause if we can not shew any of them that haue mainteined our Religion Yet because you make so gentle an offer vpon the triall of such a matter which is of small force either to the hurt of our cause or the maintenance of yours I will let you vnderstande what I haue reade for this purpose Not doubting but other which haue reade much more and seene more auncient histories than I can shew you a great deale more I passe ouer as to well knowen how many of the Grecian Emperors resisted the setting vp of Images in so much that in the Greeke church to this daye they can abide none in their temples likewise I passe ouer Charles the great who wrote a booke against Images which is in printe who also declared that he liked not the heresie of the reall presence and transubstantiation which in his time was in forging in that he called Bertrame to declare his minde of that matter as appeareth by his booke which is also in printe I will not rehearse those princes that contrary to the Popes lawes defended their priestes that were maried For although these and such like defended some parte of the trueth which we holde against you yet lest you should obiect it was but in some one or two pointes I passe them ouer with silence But VVickleue I wene you will not deny
Nouatians Socrates testifieth he could doe not good with them because they enuied his ambition saying that the bishoprike of Rome like as of Alexandria was long before growen beyonde the bondes of priesthood into foreine lordship Lib. 7. cap. 11. By these examples it is plaine that although the mysterie of iniquitie beganne to worke in Victor Cornelius Stephanus Anastasius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius and Caelestinus yet it was reproued by some godly men as Irenaeus Polycrates Dionysius Alexandrinus Cyprianus the Councell of Aphrica and Socrates the Historiographer 4 VVhether all nations sodenly and in one yeare were moued to the doctrine of the Papistes no one man of all their true Church neither preaching teaching writing nor attempting any thing against it or making mention of it WHen the scripture telleth vs that the mysterie of iniquitie preparing for the generall defection and reuelation of Antichrist wrought euen in S. Paules time 2. Thess. 2. it is foly to aske whether sodenly and in one yere all Religion was corrupted And yet all nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes for as it hath bene often saide the Greeke church and other Orientall churches hath neuer receiued the Popish religion in many cheefe pointes and especially in acknowledging the Popes authoritie what preaching teaching and writing hath bene against it is shewed before and shal be more declared hereafter 5 VVhether sodenly all bookes of seruice were altered NO forsoothe but by litle and litle in the Latine Church as for the Greeke Orientall Churches neuer receyued nor vsed your Latine seruice bookes 6 VVhether in a moment the Masse was saide in steede of other Apostolike Communion WHen Durande your owne doctor sheweth what Pope sewed on euery patche that belongeth to your Masse it were foly for vs to say it came in sodenly and impudencie in you to affirme that it came whole from the Apostles which was so long a framing in so many peeces 7 VVhether men beganne sodenly to praye for the soules departed FIrst it is manifest that men had no warraÌ„t out of God his worde to pray for the dead and it can not be proued for 200 yeares after Christ by any credible author that it was vsed in the Church wherefore it is certeine that it was first planted by the deuill as were other abuses And because it hath a pretence of Charitie deceyued simple men the sooner Yet did it not so preuaile in the primitiue Church that they durst define what profit the soules receyued thereby for Chrysostome in his 3. Homelie vpon the first Chapter of the Epist. to the Philippians sayeth Procuremus eis aliquid auxilij modici quidem attamen iuuemus eos Let vs procure them some helpe small helpe truely but yet let vs helpe them Likewise Augustine in the 9. booke and 13. Chapter of his confessions where he prayeth for his father and mother declareth how vncertaine he was of that matter one while he feareth the danger of euery soule that dieth in Adam An other while he beleueth that they neede not his prayer yet he desireth God to accept the same and moue other men to remember them in their prayers Thus it is necessary that they wander which leane vnto mens traditions without the worde of God. 8 Sodenly required the helpe of Sainctes in heauen WHether sodenly or by litle and litle men were brought to such superstition that they required helpe of Sainctes it maketh litle matter seeing it is contrary to the worde of God and the example of the primitiue Church for 200. yeares after christ Yet it is to be thought that it grew vp as other errors by litle and litle And S. Augustine in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wearieth him selfe and in the ende can define nothing in certeine how the Sainctes in heauen should heare the prayers of men on earth Such doubtfulnesse they fall into that leaue the word of God and leaue to traditions 9 Sodenly the tongue of common prayers altered FIrst the Greeke church other churches both in Asia Aethiopia neuer receiued the Latine tongue but to this day continue in their vulgare tongue The Westerne Church for the most parte all spake and vnderstoode Latine as the sea coast of Aphrica Italye Fraunce Spayne Britayne as for Germany was lately conuerted to the faith Then seeing they spake Latine and had their common prayer in Latine The tongue of their common prayer was not altered but their speach was altered from the tongue of their common prayer and this was not sodainely for it was more than twelue hundred yeares after Christ before it waâ— taken for a Catholike doctrine that common prayer should be vsed in latine S. Augustine preached in latine all the people vnderstoode him and that they might the better vnderstand him he doth vse such phrases and termes which were not pure latine but commonly vsed of the people as Ossum and Foenerare c. But soone after his time when the Gothes and Vandalles oueranne the Empire the latine tongue which before was not pure among the people began daily to be more corrupted and yet remained after a sort latine vntill the yeare of our Lorde 768. when Charles the great began to râ—igne in France and long after for within the time of his reigne which was 47. yeares a Councell was holden at Turon in France what yeare it is not certeyne but it is probable that in the latter ende of his empire in which it was decreed that euery bishop should haue certeine homilies Et easdem quisque apertè studeat transferre in rusticam Romanam linguam aut Theotiscam quo facilius cuncti possint intelligere quae dicuntur Turon 3. cap. 17. And that euery one studye to translate them plainly into the rusticall Romane tongue or into the Theotisce tongue that all men may more easily vnderstand what is sayd By this Canon it is euident that at this time the people vnderstood the Latine tongue though it were very rude and rustical And where the Canon prescribeth the same homilies to be translated either into the rude latine tongue or into the Theotisce tongue Although this word Theotisca seeme to be corrupted yet it is most certeine that they meant Dutch tongue for as much as Carolus magnus had a great part of Germanie vnder his dominion and the Germanes as neuer throughly subdued by the Romanes neuer throughly receiued the latine tongue Yet it is manifest that they vnderstoode their common prayer in the latine tongue though not perfectly because the Canon sayth Quo facilius c. That all men may more easely vnderstand signifying that they vnderstood the pure latine tongue though hardely and not perfectly About the yeare of our Lorde 813. the knowledge of the latine tongue beganne more and more to weare awaye from amongest the common people which when the bishops perceiued they decreed in the Councell of Magunce cap. 25. that euery Sondaye and holy daye there shoulde be a
God being a spirite is not worshipped with outward pompe but with spirituall and inwarde reuerence And as for other furniture that is necessary was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his successors that were of our Church before the reuelatiō of Antichrist Notwithstāding the Church was in better case before such furniture was graunted than it was since Therefore it is a small reason to chalenge the Church of Christ by outwarde furniture 2 VVhat Churches did you builde for your assemblies and seruice OVr assemblies were kept in secret places long time after Christes Ascension in most cuntries that were subiect to the Romane empire Wherefore the building of materiall churches proueth nothing at all the builders to be members of the mystical Church that is the body of christ Howbeit in such realmes and cuntries where the faith of Christ was receiued by publike authoritie as in this lande of Brytaine there were churches builded as our Chronicles declare And when Constantinus had geuen peace to the Church he also builded Oratories and great Synagoges called Basilicas for our assemblies and seruice 3 VVhat Bishoprickes for the gouernment of the Church did you finde AS the church continued longe without materiall churches so also without large possessions for the lyuing of bishops yet in Brytish Church our histories make mention that the possessions and places of the Pagane Flamines and Archiflamines were conuerted to the vse of Ecclesiastical bishops and archbishops so soon as Lucius the king receiued the faith Also the same histories do testifie that when Augustine came into Britayn there were still 7. bishops and one archbishop among the Britaines And in the Romane Empier Constantinus and other Christian Emperors appointed great possessions for the mainteyning of the ministers of the Church 4 VVhat Vniuersities Schooles or Colledges did you euer erect THe Church of God hath alwayes had schooles or Vniuersities for the mainteinance of godly learning For the first Colledges of monkes in solitary places were nothing els but Colledges of studentes that were after as occasion serued taken to serue in the Church as appereth by Chrysostome in his booke De Sacerdotio where he sheweth that Basilius who was a Monke with him was taken by violence and made a minister of the church as he him selfe was afterwarde Also in the bishops house was a colledge of studentes and our histories testifie that at Bangor in Wales was a great Vniuersitie of learned men Also of late dayes you may heare that diuerse Vniuersities Scholes and Colleges are erected by Protestants in Germanie and other contries that haue receiued the gospel As at Wittemberge Geneua Zuriche Conigsperge in Prussia c. 5 Name one Church not builded in all fashions as well for the making of the chancells the forme of the aultars the vse of the chalices the signification of the vestiments as also for the speciall intent of the builders thereof Name one of them in the whole Church of Christ either erected for your Faith Church seruice or not prepared in all sorts for catholike practises Proue vnto me that any of all those thinges were euer prouided for any other seruice and Religion then ours or that they be monuments of any other Fayth and Church then the common Catholike and I recant HEre are many wordes to litle purpose What if it were graunted that all churches that now remaine were builded by Papistes and for popish vses what had you wonne thereby The same chalenge might the Idolaters haue made to the Apostles Shew vs a temple in all the worlde that was not builded by Idolaters and to mainteyne Idolatrie Certeinly they could shew none when the Temple of Ierusalem was destroyed But for all your bragges we are able to shewe that such Churches as were builded by true Christians were not builded to such ende as yours are for they were all builded in the honour of God and the most of yours in the honour of creatures for wheras you haue one Church in the honour of Christ you haue neare a thousand in the honour of Sainctes For Basilius magnus in his 141. epistle proueth the holy Ghost to be God because he hath a Temple For Omne Templum Dei Templum est Euery temple is the temple of god Also Didymus in his booke De spiritu sancto which S. Ieronym translateth vseth the same reason and to the same purpose S. Augustine in the same matter is very plentifull as in his booke De vera Religione cap. 55. speaking of the Sainctes he sayth Quare honoramus eos charitate non seruitute nec eis templa construimus c. Wherfore we honour them with loue and not with seruice neither doe we build temples vnto them for they wil not be so honored of vs because they know that we our selues when we are good are the temples of the highest In this saying beside his iudgement for building of temples note that he will not haue Sainctes to be honored with seruice which he calleth seruitus and is the same that dulia is contrary to the Papistes which will worship them with seruice called dulia or seruitus Also in his 174. epistle to Pascentius he sayth the holy Ghost could not haue our bodies to be tēples except he were God And in his Enchiridion ad Laurentium cap. 56. he sayth howe should he not be God which hath a temple Also in the 8. booke cap. 27. De ciuitate Dei. Nec tamen nos ijsdem martyribus templa c. he sayeth Christians builde no temples vnto Martyrs which were to make them gods And in the 22 booke cap. 10. De ciuitate Dei. Nos autem Martyribus nostris non templa sicut dijs sed memorias sicut hominibus mortuis quorum apud Deum viuunt spiritus fabricamus Nec ibi erigimus altaria in quibus sacrificemus martyribus sed vni Deo martyrum nostro sacrificium immolamus ad quòd sacrificium sicut homines Dei qui mundum in eius confessione vicerunt suo loco ordine nominantur non tamen à sacerdote qui sacrificat inuocantur Deo quippe non ipsis sacrificat quamuis in memoria sacrificet eorum quia Dei sacerdos est non illorum Ipsum verò sacrificium corpus est Christi quod non offertur ipsis quia hoc sunt ipsi that is We truely do not build temples to our martyrs as vnto gods but memories as vnto dead men whose soules liue with god Neither doe we there set vp aultars in which we should sacrifice vnto the martyrs but to God onely which is God both of the martyrs and of vs doe we offer sacrifice at which sacrifice they are named in their place and order as men of God which haue ouercome the world in his confession yet are they not called vpon by the Priest that doth sacrifice for he offereth sacrifice to God and not to them although he doe sacrifice in their memorie because he is the Priest of
into two Lutherans and Zuinglians As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament and differ onely in ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Caluine and they that be of his iudgement agree plainly with Zuinglius so that of fiue names there remaine but two sortes differing in opinion whereunto you ioyne the Swenkefeldians and Anabaptistes Now to your question these be not all of one Church for the Swenkefeldians Anabaptists be detestable heretiks but the Lutherans Zuingliās as it pleaseth you to cal thē are of one true church although they differ in one opinion cōcerning the Sacramēt for although the one affirme a real presence the other deny it yet they both cōsent in this that the body of Christ is receiued spiritually not corporally with the hart and not with the mouth Wherfore this dissention is not so great though there be error on the one side but that they may be both of the Church of Christ as well as S. Cyprian the Martyr and all the Bishops of Africa and a great many of Asia differing with Stephanus bishop of Rome and the rest of his opinion in rebaptizing such as were baptized by heretiks 2 And if either they can proue vnto me that these being of such diuersitie in faith and religion make one Church WE haue alwaies abhorred the heresies of the Anabaptistes Libertines Swenkefeldians Dauidians Seruitians and all such But that Luther Zuinglius may be both of one Church differing onely in one opinion of the Sacrament is declared before 3 Or that each of their sects may giue saluation to their folowers being so disagreable one with an other in high points of our Religion SAluation is the gift of God and not in the power of any company or sect of men but this we affirme that out of that Church whereof we count Luther and Zuinglius notwithstanding their diuerse opinions which is but in one matter of the Sacrament to be members there is no saluation 4 Or that I should beleue all these rather then the Catholike Church or one of these more then another all making such a bold chalenge of the truth and Gospell NO man requireth you to beleue all these but the true Catholike Church onely Neither doe we requite you to beleue any one company of men more then an other but to beleue the trueth before falshood Now which of them hath the truth that they all brag of you must search in the word of truth desiring the spirite of truth that you may vnderstand and beleue the truth and so without doubt you shall come to the knowledge of the truth and of the Church of God which is the piller and stay of truth 5 Let the Protestants of all these kindes put their heades together and shew me a reason of these thinges and with all let them among them selues agree to what sorte of these sectes they woulde haue me and I will recant SVch is your impudencie in this matter as in all other that you woulde make men beleue that the Anabaptistes Swenkefeldians Libertins and other abhominable heretikes be Protestantes But it is well that you can make none but fooles thinke so as for the Protestantes they neede take no great deliberation to aunswere your demandes but you had more neede to laye your heades together to reconcile the Thomistes Albertistes Ockamistes Scotistes Reales and Nominalls which be all sectes of Papistes and especially your Canonistes and diuines about the articles of your religion that is whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or the Councel aboue the Pope Whether the Pope may erre and not the Councell or whether the Councell maye erre and not the Pope These two the Popes determination and the Councells determination being the rules of trueth in your religion and not agreed vpon how can any trueth be certeine in your Church As for Luther and Zuinglius they agree vpon one rule of trueth that is the worde of God and differ onely for the applying or laying of this rule yet but in one matter that not the greatest But you Papists some holding of the Pope and some of the Councell as rules of truth can haue no ground nor certainty thereof Therefore if you woulde haue me or any man to be of your belefe First determine how I shal know when I am in a right beleefe one sayeth if the councell alloweth it an other sayeth if the Pope alloweth what shall I doe when one of these is against an other yea when one Pope is against an other and one councell against an other shall I thinke that trueth changeth so often as they change Moreouer when one Pope graunteth that the councell is aboue the Pope and that the Pope maye erre Likewise one councell graunteth that the Pope is aboue the councell and that the councell may erre as it hath bene within the 200. yeares the councells of Constance and Basill determined that the councell was aboue the Pope and that the Pope maye erre Contrariwise the councell of Ferraria and Florence determined that the Pope was aboue the councell and that the councell might erre Martinus 5. the Pope chosen by the councell of Constance was of the same iudgement that the councell But Eugenius 4. that gathered the councell of Ferraria and Florence against the councell of Basill was of the contrarie iudgement Nowe I woulde saye he were a wittie fellow that coulde reconcile this geare together For if he be a Canonist that holdeth this opinion that the Pope can not erre whē the Pope him self graunteth that he may erre which waye shall he turne him selfe For if this proposition be true the Pope can not erre then this is true also that the Pope may erre for if he can not erre he can not erre in saying so And if the Pope erred in saying he coulde erre where he can not erre then this proposition is false the Pope can not erre so one proposition shal be both true and false which is impossible Likewise if he holde that hilde that the councell can not erre and the councell it selfe confesseth it that it may erre Gentle maister N. reconcile me these together which concerne a case that hath bene in practise and still is in the Papistrie and maye here trouble a mans conscience that woulde beleue your church and if he haue any wit restraine him for euer comming into your church If you can not vntie this knot nor winde your selfe out of this maze vnlesse you will be still obstinate it were wisedome for you to recant The 18. article hath but one demande I demande whether they were euer of the true Catholike church which either tooke to them selues newe names of religion according to the calling of any secte maister or liked not so well the name of Catholike or Christian as of their seuerall teachers as to be called of Arius Arians or of Caluine Caluinistes or of Luther Lutheranes or Protestants c. if any man therefore can proue vnto me that men which haue chosen to themselues to declare their diuersitie of faith from the common knowen Catholike church such
Pope and all her enemies she is to this day preserued and shal be to the worldes end Therefore the gates of Hell haue not preuailed against her nor the promise of Christ hath failed And whereas you say that your bastard church hath spoiled her of all holy actions gouernment and Christian name it is a most impudent lye as it is true that you sawe a bastard church vsurped her holy name counterfaicted her holy actions and turned her gouernment into tyrannie 4 Let me see therefore howe the onely dearling and spouse of Christ shoulde be neglected of him so long SHe hath not bene neglected of him but felt his continuall aide he hath geuen her safe deliuerance of her childe taken it vp from the crueltie of the Dragon he hath prouided her a place in the wildernesse he hath made warre with the Dragon for her sake and driuen him out of heauen he hath geuen her Eagles wings to flie into the wildernesse he hath caused the earth to swallow vp the water that shoulde haue caried her awaie he hath geuen the remnant of her seede Victorie ouer the Dragon Finally his mercifull protection and louing care ouer her hath neuer more notably appeared than that against so many daungers and enemies all this while he hath preserued her vntill such time as he hath thought good now to bring her out of her secret place in the wildernesse into the open sight of the worlde againe 5 Let the aduersarie shew that the Church shoulde euer by superstition and falshood commit adultery or be deuorcâ— from him THe true church consisting of God his elect and the liuely members of the bodie of Christ shall neuer commit such adultery that she shal be diuorced from him But the visible church by Idolatrie and superstition may separate her selfe from Christ and be refused of him as God speaketh by Esay to the church of Ierusalem cap. 1. How is the faithfull Citie become an harlot It was full of iudgement and iustice lodged therein but now they are murtherers Thy siluer is become drosse and thy wine is mixed with water Thy Princes are rebellious and companions of theeues c. euen so maye he say to the church of Rome how is that faithfull church become an harlot true Faith and Religion haue dwelled in her but now Idolatrie and superstition thy siluer is turned into drosse and thy wine is mixed with water thou hast nothing pure and vncorrupted thy Princes be rebellious Antichristes c. Thus I haue shewed that the visible church may become an adulteresse and be deuorced from Christ. 6 Or that Christ should euer want his spouse in earth THis hath bene often aunswered before Christ hath neuer wanted his spouse in earth though the blinde world can not alwayes see her or when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse 7 Or that he shoulde be a heade either without a bodie THese are but one thing in diuers phrases as he hath neuer wanted his spouse in earth so hath he neuer bene an heade without a bodie and seeing these wordes in this sence are relatiues for Christ is called a heade in respect of the Church which is his body and the Church is called a bodie in respect of Christ that is her heade I aunswere you by a rule of the Logicians No man knoweth a relatiue except he know the correlatiue thereof Therefore though Christ had a bodie in earth yet coulde it be knowen of none but such as knewe Christ the heade of that bodie Of whome when the Papistes were ignorant specially when they appointed an other heade in earth it is no marueill if they could not see the bodie of Christ though he haue neuer bene without it 8 Or such an vnknowne and small bodie THis hath bene answered immediatly before it sufficeth that it be knowne to Christ the head As he sayeth My sheepe heare my voyce and I know them Iohn 10. And to them that be of the members of the same body As for the rest it is not necessary that they should alwayes see it which will neuer acknowledge it Neither is it so smal as it is thought of it is dispersed in many places ouer all the worlde and yet fewe in comparison of the malignant church whose number is as the sand of the sea c. Apoc. 20. 9 Or that Christes only kingdom should become so coÌ„temptible NOthing else is to be looked for of the worlde but hatred and contempt as Christ him selfe sayth You shall be hated of all men for my names sake Matth. 10. S. Paule biddeth vs looke on our calling not many wise men according to the flesh not many mighty men not many noble men but God hath chosen the foolish thinges of this world to confound the wise and the weake of this worlde to confounde the stronge 1. Cor. 1. And what hath the true church to boast in but in the Crosse of Christ. Gal. 6. than the which nothing is more shamefull contemptible or reprochefull to the wisedome of this worlde what knowledge or preaching hath the true church but Iesus Christ crucified which to the Iewes is an offence and to the Greekes foolishnesse but to them that be called both Iewes and Greekes it is the power and wisedome of God to euerlasting saluation 1. Cor. 1. Rom. 1. So that as the church in the sight of God and his Sainctes is most glorious and honorable so in the sight of the worlde it hath alwayes bene most base and contemptible 10 Or that his spouse in earth shoulde euer lacke the singular prerogatiues of Gods spirite shewe me these thinges and I recant THis also hath ben declared before in the second demande of this Article There be certeine singular prerogatiues which are not continually with God his Church as the gift of tongues the gift of prophesie the gift of healinges c. but there be other prerogatiues of God his spirit that are necessary for the saluation of God his elect as the gift of vnderstanding the gift of Faith the spirit of adoption c. and these the spouâ—e of Christ hath neuer wanted Wherefore if you wil be partaker of those benefits which are receiued in the church of Christ you must forsake your Romish religion and recant The 25. article hath 2. demandes 1 Shew me that the Church which ought to be a Christian mans staye in all troubles and tempestes of doctrine might become so hidde or so close that no man coulde finde her THe reader must not be offended with me for any tedious repetition of mine aunsweres seeing you geue the occasion by propounding your demandes so often This demande hath a false principle that the church ought to be a Christian mans onely staie in all troubles and tempestes of doctrine for when soeuer any such tempestes doe arise there is as great question and doubt of the Church as there is controuersie of the doctrine
sorte so euer they be Take awaye the prayers and practise for the deade either all those monuments must fall or else they must stand against the first founders will and meaning Looke in the statutes of all noble fouÌ„dations and of all charitable workes euer sith the first day of our happy calling to Christes faith whether they doe not expresly testifie that their worke of almes and deuotion was for this one especiall respect to be prayd and song for as they call it after their deathes Looke whether your Vniuersities protest not this fayth by many a solemne oth both priuatly and openly Looke whether all preachers that euer tooke degree in the Vniuersitie before these yeares are not bound by the holy Euangelistes to pray for certayne noble Princes and Prelates of this Realme in euery of their sermons at Paules or other places of name And so often as these preachers doe omitte it so often are they periured so often as they eyther eate or drinke of their benefactors cost so often beare they testimony of their owne damnation 4 This and almost all the rest to the ende of the chapter might be as wel the expostulation of the heathen men with the Apostles or them that first preached the faith of christ Were there not as goodly building of temples colledges and vniuersities among the heathen as are among vs at this daye but all they were builded and indowed by men of a contrary religion doth it thereâ—ore follow that their religion was good which erected such noble monuments both of their common welth and of their religion Although it is most false that Allen affirmeth that this doctrine founded all byshopprickes builded all Churches c. but admit it were so what argument were that to proue that his religion were true Our stories testifie that at the first conuersion of this lande to Christianity in the time of Lucius that arch flamines of the Paganes were conuerted to archbyshopprickes And the Pagane flamines were conuerted to Bishopprickes and so the temples of the Paganes were conuerted into the Churches of the Christians Gregory also instructeth Augustine how he should conuerte the temples of the Idolatrous Saxons vnto the vse of the Christian Churches If these stories be true then is it both false that M. Allen sayth that his doctrine of Purgatory founded all Bishopprickes Churches c. and also that all Bishopprickes Churches colledges c. must remaine in the religion of them by whome they were first founded he procedeth further to charge all our superintendents of periury for not keeping their othe made in the vniuersity to praye for the deade Let them that haue made such othe aunswere for them selues I am sure he lyeth of many and of the most of them for that othe was onely in Oxeford for any thing that I haue heard which vniuersity hath yeilded fewe to that place as yet But it is certaine that your popish Bishoppes of Queene Maries time almost euery one and the chiefest Bonner Gardyner Heth Hopton Therlebye c. were manifestly periured against that othe which they tooke in K. Henry K. Edwarde his daies to maintaine the kinges supremacie against the vsurped power of the Pope This all the world knoweth and therefore ye may be ashamed to accuse our superintendents of periurye of whome I am sure you can name but a fewe that euer tooke the oth 5 Aunswere me but one question I aske you VVhether the first authors of such benefites as you enioye in the Church at this daye either of bishoppricke or colledge or any other spirituall liuely hoode say your mindes vnfeinedly whether they euer meÌ„t that such men of such a religion of such life of such doctrine should enioy that almes which they especially ordeined for other men and for contrary purpose say trueth and shame the deuill thought they euer to make roume in Collegies for your wiues meÌ„t they euer to mainteine preachinge against the Masse against prayers for their owne soules when they purposely vpon that grounde beganne so godly a worke if they in deede neuer ment it as I knowe they did not and as your owne consciencies beare witnesse with them and against your selues that they did not how can you then for feare of Gods high displeasure against their owne willes vsurpe those commodities which they neuer ment to such as you be A lasse good men they thought to make freindes of wicked Mammon and full dearly with both landes and goods haue they procured enemies to their owne soules But if there be any sense in those good fathers and founders as there is and if they be in heauen as their good deseruing I trust hath brought them then surely they accuse you most iustly of wicked vniustice before the face of God for deluding the people for breaking their willes for usurping their commodities against their professed mindes and meaninges Or if they be in hell which God forfende and yet you must needes so suppose for raysing the monuments of such superstition then blotte out their memorie and names that haue not onely in their life mainteined horrible abusies but also after their death haue lefte such open steppes of superstition to all posteritie 5 The same question you maye demaunde of the fathers of the primitiue Church and in deede the same question or the like was demaunded of them and it is not so harde to answere as you imagine Many of these Churches and colledges yea the most notable cathedrall Churches in England were builded for preachers of the Gospell and there wiues to dwell in Our stories are plentifull in that point that they were the first inhabiters of them and afterwarde as Idolatrie and superstition preuailed were with all violence and iniury expelled out of them and monkes placed in their steede If you be so skilfull in antiquity as you make your selfe you can not be ignorant of this which is testified by Ranulphus Castrensis Mathaeus VVestmonasteriensis the storie of Peterburghe and many other Now whether any ment to maintaine preaching against Masse or prayers for their owne soules as we knowe not whether they did or no so we compt it not materiall Such liuinges as are appointed by the prince and the lawe for maintenaunce of them that preach the Gospell we maye enioye with a good conscience without regarde of their meaning that first builded the houses or possessed the landes For we must not seeke to learne our faith and religion out of their meanings and intentes but out of the worde of god And whether the builders of such places be saued or damned it perteineth not to vs to iudge nor to enquire Such things as were well done of them we woulde commend if they were heathen men but if any thing were euill in them we may not allowe it though they were neuer so good 6 Suppose I pray you which yet I woulde be lothe shoulde come to proofe or passe but suppose for all that that with the
doth recant The third article conteyneth 5. demandes 1 Shew me why our common knowen Church did not as well corrupt the text of the Testament as the true religion conteyned in the same THere may be diuers good reasons shewed why your Church commonly knowen to be the church of Antichrist did not as well corrupt the text of the Testament as the true religion conteined therein First because she coulde not the copies thereof being so many by the prouidence of God dispersed throughout the worlde Secondly because she thought it not so needefull hauing other meanes to worke her deuilish deuise For although she coulde not corrupt the scripture yet it made the lesse matter because she founde meanes to diminish and controll the authority therof by aduancing decrees of men Popes and Councells to be equall or of greater authoritie than the scripture Thirdly because she woulde be lesse in feare to be reproued by the scripture she prouided that the knowledge thereof shoulde be hidden from the vnlearned people by a strange tongue and from the learned by the tedious mazes of questions deuised by her Canonistes and Sententiaries Fourthly because she submitted all interpretation of the scripture to her owne iudgement and therefore woulde not be controlled by the iudgement thereof but woulde alwayes expound it as it liked her best As appeareth by Ockam and Duns who though they confesse that transubstantiation seemeth to them contrary to the scripture and reason yet they beleued it because of the authoritie of the church and for none other cause These are the reasons why the Romish church did not as well corrupt the text of the Testamēt as the true Religion And yet how corrupt that Latine translation is which they woulde needes thrust vpō vs is sufficiently knowen to all learned men euen in such texts as are the most coulerable places for the defence of Popish doctrine I will geue one example for all They alleage the text 1. Cor. 10. Qui stat videat ne cadat He that standeth let him take heede he fall not against the certainetie of faith whereas the Greeke hath not he that standeth but he that thinketh he standeth let him take heede he fall not Thus the popish church cannot altogether excuse her selfe from corrupting of the text of the Testament whether it was of fraude or of ignorance or of negligence the Lorde knoweth 2 Shew me why she kept not so safely and faithfully the true sense of God his word as she preserued the word it selfe BEcause it was against her owne estimation and profit which are the chiefe endes for which popish Prelates mainteyne popish religion Take away the Popes prerogatiue which is contrary to the sense of God his word downe goe Cardinalls Legates Prothonotaries downe goeth all the Court of Rome take away workes of supererogation which are contrary to the Scripture downe goe Abbeys Priories and Chantries Take away the sacrifice of the Masse Purgatory which are contrary to the word of God downe goeth the estimation and gaynes of all the popish clergie And this is the cause why the popish church kept not so safely and faithfully the true sense of God his word as she preserued the word it selfe although she preserued not the word it self in such safetie as becommed the Church of Christ. 3 Shew me why we should beleue the Papistes as you terme them for the word it self and rather you Protestants thā them for the meaning of the word WE doe not chalenge credit to our selues in any poynt so presumptuously as the Papistes that men must beleue it because we affirme it But because we proue it to be true by the worde of god And therefore for the meaning of the word you should beleue vs rather than them because our groundes proues are better then theirs or else we require not to be beleued better than they 4 Shew me why you beleued our Church telling you this to be God his booke will not credit her auouching this to be the true and vndoubted sense of the same booke IF we had no better ground to perswade vs of the authoritie of God his booke than the testimony of your Church you may be sure we would not beleue it But because we haue most stedfast assurance of God his spirite for the authority of that booke with the testimony of the true Church in all ages If you say it is God his booke we beleue you not because you say so but because we know it to be true But if you bring out a false sense we beleue you not because we know it to be false are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrary to the meaning of the holy Ghost To be plaine with you we geue as much credit to your Church as to the deuill When the deuill sayth it is written He shall giue his angells charge ouer thee and with their handes they shall hold thee vp that thou dash not thy foote against a stone We beleue that this is the worde of god But when he auoucheth this to be the meaning of it that we may cast downe our selues from a Church steeple without daunger we doe not beleue him because we know this sense is contrary to an other Scripture which sayth Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. So when you say these wordes are the Scripture of God This is my body We beleue it because we knowe it to be true But when you say this is the meaning of these wordes This bread is turned into my naturall bodye we beleue you not because it is contrary to all places of Scripture which proue the trueth of Christ his humanitie or naturall body Thus I shewe you why we beleue you if you say the Scripture is God his word namely because we know it to be true why we beleue you not saying this is the meaning of it that is because we knowe by the word of God that it is false 5 Last of all Shew me why you beleued the olde known church affirming this to be the word of God and will not beleue her affirming Luther to be an heretike shew me good reason or Scripture for these thinges and I recant IF you meane by the olde Church the primitiue Church whose testimony of the word of God we allow beleue I deny that the primitiue Church did affirme Luther to be an heretike or the doctrine that he taught which we hold to be heresie but I am able to proue that the primitiue Church from which you haue receiued the Scripture affirmeth your doctrine to be heresie your Church the Church of Antichrist But if by the old knowne Church you meane the Church of old knowne to be the Church of Antichrist which is the popish church we beleue the deuill if he speake the trueth and we beleue not an Angell comming from heauen if he bring any other Gospel than S. Paule deliuered to the Galathians Therefore when your
sermon in such sorte that the common people might vnderstand it and in the 45. Canon they decreed that euery Christian shoulde learne the Creede and the Lorde his prayer Et qui aliter non potuerit vel in sua lingua hoc discat that is And he that can not yet let him learne it in his owne tongue Whereby they declare that they desier to reteine the latine tongue still but rather than the people shoulde be ignorant they commande them to learne their prayers and beleefe in their mother tongue Also by the 43. Canon wherein they iudge that no preeste can saye Masse alone it appeareth that the people commonly vnderstood the latine seruice for they aske how he shoulde saye Dominus vobiscum and admonish the people to lifte vp their heartes and diuers like sayinges where there is none by him but him selfe Nowe if the people vnderstoode not these sayinges it were all one whether they were present or absent Also in the Councell of Rhenes holden in Fraunce about the same time the like decree was made cap. 15. that bishops studie to preache sermons and homelies of the holy fathers so that all men maye vnderstand according to the property of their tongue Finally in the Councell of Laterane holden vnder Pope Innocent the third Anno Dom. 1215. in which Councell transubstantiation was first established the 9. chapter it was plainely decreed that forasmuch as within one citie and diocesse people of diuers languages be mingled together hauing vnder one Faith diuers rites and maners we streightly commande that the bishops of such cities and diocesses prouide able men which according to the diuersitie of their rites and languages celebrate vnto them the diuine seruice and minister the sacramentes instructing them both by worde and example Hereby it appeareth that when the latine tongue was either almost or altogether growen out of the common peoples vnderstandings order was taken that common prayers should be sayed and sacramentes ministred in the mother tongue of euery nation But the bishops which shoulde haue seene it put in execution either negligently omitted it or willingly refused to doe it because it was more for their profit to kepe the people in blinde ignorance So thus I haue shewed that sodenly the tongue of common prayer was not altered 10 Tell me what yeare of our Lorde vnder what Emperour vnder what Pope by whome these thinges were wrought vpon what occasion this marueillous mutation was made WHo can tell the originall of euery blind custome and peuish tradition of euery olde error and foolish fashion it is sufficient to shew that these thinges haue no grounde in the scripture of God they were not taught by Christ and his Apostles nor receiued in the church that followed immediatly after them and then we are bolde to say with Tertullian This preiudice there is against all heresies how soeuer they came vp or when soeuer they sprange vp That is true that was first and that is false that is latter therefore from the beginning it was not vsed to praye for the deade nor to the deade from the beginning common prayer was not in an vnknowen tongue Wherefore prayer for the deade and to the deade with prayer in a strange tongue are false when soeuer they beganne or how long soeuer they continued 11 VVho preached against it what historie maketh mention of it who of all your Pastors preached against it was God his Church so voide of the spirit of Trueth and strength that euen then when it most florished it had none that durst open against â—uch corruption of religion as it entred in and when it might soone haue bene repressed BEfore you demande what yeare the religion of the Papistes came in and whether it came in sodenly and as though we shoulde aunswere that it came in sodainely you demande who preached against it c. This is to fight with your owne shadowe for we say not that it came in sodainely but that it entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espied by the true Pastors especially being earnestly occupied against great heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the cheefe foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Sabellians and such like monsters So when Satan had gotten in one foote by such craftie pollitie he neuer rested vntill he had thrust in his whole bodie with the power of Antichrist 12 If it coulde not shew me then what yeare of the Lorde this mutation was made and who of all the true preachers did with stand this doctrine SO often as you demande one thinge so often must I aunswere after one sorte this mutation was not all in one yeare nor in one hundreth yeares nor in one thousand of yeares for transubstantiation no small article of your religion was not decreed vntill the yeare of God 1215. what preachers haue withstoode your doctrine at diuers times are declared before in the aunswere to the 8. Article 2. demande 13 Or note the name of him that euer first preached any article of our doctrine and if we note you not by their names euery one of your Capitaines and the seuerall errors that they tought and the time and the yeare when they arose against the former receyued trueth and the Councells in which they were orderly condemned if I saye this can be done of your side towarde vs or if we doe it not for improofe of your Church and religion I recant I Haue noted in the answere to the 6. article 3. demande the names of diuers heretikes that first preached diuers articles of your religion and further I note vnto you Pelagius and Coelestius which tought that free will without grace coulde doe somewhat towardes eternall saluation and that grace was geuen according to merite which article you teach also with culler of a distinction De congruo condigno which is a meere cauill for God is as much bounde vnto congruitie as to dignitie or worthinesse and as he can doe nothing against worthinesse no more can he doe any thing against congruitie which is a kinde of Equitie And whereas you bragge to note vnto vs euery one of our Capitaines c. except you note vnto vs the Patriarches Prophets Apostles Euangelistes and Christ himselfe you shall neuer be able to performe that you promise for we teache nothing but the eternall trueth of God wherefore we refuse not to be counted heretikes if you can proue that we holde any one article of faith contrarie to the scripture you may perchaunce note the names of them that preaching the trueth of our doctrine against your receyued errors were accounted of the world for heretikes but you must proue that their opinions are contrarie to the worde of God or els all your labour is in vaine we confesse also that some articles of our doctrine were taught by heretikes as there was neuer no heresie which had not many thinges common with true Religion but yet in
which we are iustified 2 Or in thinges where they doubt be contented to submit their seuerall meaninge to the iudgement of their Superiours THe Greeke church in doubtes will be ruled by the Patriarch of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall churches by their cheefe Patriarches and bishops And the Protestants in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiours so farre as their superiors are ruled by Gods his worde 3 And to that communion and companie wherof they be name any companie of men agreeing and thus humbly affected in Christes Religion sauing the blessed fellowship and members of the Catholike communion and I recant TO the communion and company of the Grecians I name the Moscouites and Russians agreeing in Religion and so humbly affected and these are not of the fellowship that you call the Catholike communion Among the Protestants to the church of Saxonie I name the church of Dennemarcke or to the church of Helâ—etia the church of France or to the church of England the church of Scotlande but so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the Truth which must be tried onely by God his worde And seeing none of these are of the Popish communioÌ„ if your promise be any thing worth you must recant The 16. article conteyneth one demande and one chalenge Furthermore name any one man that is confessed on both sides by the iudgement of the world to be holy and learned a member of the true Church in what age soeuer you list sence Christes time and proue him to haue bene in all articles of Faith of the Protestants meaninge SEeing you geue so large scope I will name S. Paule who I thinke is coÌ„fessed on both sides to be holy and learned and a member of the true Church whome I can proue by his writinges that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it woulde requier a whole volume if I shoulde proue euery particular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaninge thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea if I bring not the aduersaries them selues to acknowledge in the ende him to be wholy against their doctrine in diuers of articles of great importance and therefore that he coulde not be of their church I recant YOu shall neuer bring vs neither in the beginning nor in the end to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our Faith but we agree wholy with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane will not be afraide to vtter Forasmuch as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church which was hardly kept out while they liued as we maye learne by the Epistle to the Corinthians you thinke that we dare not depende vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depende onely vppon Gods worde But where you saye there is none but he dissenteth from vs in diuers articles of great importance you saye vntruely for you are not able to proue that Iustinus Martyr or Irenaeus two of the most ancient authenticall writers that the Church next vnto the Apostles had are against vs in any point of doctrine wherein we differ from you Yet are there certaine errors in them which neither you nor we allow as is touched before in the answere to the 11. article 1. deman But they are both wholly against you in diuers articles of your doctrine and namely in transubstantiatioÌ„ which is one of the greatest articles of Poperie as Irenaeus in the 34. cap. of his 4. booke Contra haereses Quemadmodum enim qui est a terra panis c.. Euen as the breade â–ª which is of the earth after it hath receyued the inuocation of God is not now common breade but the Eucharistie or breade of thankes geuing consisting of two thinges earthly heauenly so our bodies receyuing the Eucharistie are not now corruptible hauing hope of resurrection Here you see plainely that Irenaeus affirmeth the sacrament after consecration to consist of the earthly substance of breade which maye better be vnderstoode when we know that he reasoneth against such heretikes as denied the world to be made by God saying that he woulde neuer haue made so great a mysterie of bread which is a creature of the world if the worlde had not bene made by him Iustinus in his second Apologie to the Emperour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. We doe not receiue these thinges as common breade and a common cuppe but euen as Iesus Christ our Sauiour was incarnate by the worde of God and tooke vpon him flesh and bloude for our saluation So we are taught that this meate for which thankes is geuen by the worde of prayer from him of which our fleshe and bloude are nourished by transmutation is the fleshe and bloude of Iesus that was incarnate Here he plainely affirmeth that the substance of the Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of our bodies Therfore it remaineth still after the consecration The other writers of later yeares as they haue some errors which neither you nor we doe allow in them so we are not afraid to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for inuocation of Sainctes prayer for the dead and diuerse superstitious and superfluous ceremonies yet not so addict to these nor ioyned with such absurdities as yours are But for the chiefe pointes of Christian Religion and the foundation of our faith that is for the honour of God the offices of Christ Redemption Iustification Satisfaction the fruites of Christ his passion Grace faith workes authoritie of God his word authoritie of the Pope reall presence transubstantiation Communion in both kindes Images c. the most approued writers Tertullian Cyprian Origen Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostomus Ieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. are vtterly against you and therfore can not be of your church But for as much as they hold the foundation that is Christ though they haue diuerse errors superstitions they were doubtles the members of the true Church of Christ which because you are not able to disproue reason would you should recant The 17. Article conteyneth 5. demandes 1 I aske of them whether the Lutherans Zuinglians Illirians Caluenistes Confessionistes Swenkefeldians Anabaptistes and such like be all of one Church BEcause you would make simple men beleue that there be so many diuerse sectes of Protestantes as you haue giuen them names I will first discusse these sectes and afterwarde aunswere your question Lutherans you meane them that follow Luthers opinion of the Sacrament Zuinglians follow Caluines iudgement of the same Confessionistes them that exhibited their confession at Auspurge which were both the Lutherans and Zuinglians so these 3 names may be contracted
were approued in S. Augustines and S. Ambroses times abrogated and disanulled either because they were vnprofitable or else hurtful Last of all what superstitious vsages doth the church of Rome still approue euen such as the wiser sort of Papistes are ashamed of 5 Or that she suffereth any man damnably abusing her religion without open reprehension thereof proue any of these thinges and I recant THe true Church of Christ in such places as she is suffereth no man damnably abusing her Religion with out open â—eprehension as in the dayes of VValdo VVickleffe Husse c. whereof sufficient mention is made before but because she is not in all places at all times many men yea whole nations may damnably erre and not be reprehended of her As all the Mahometistes which occupie the greatest part of the world who doth or hath alwaies openly reprehended them And the Romish Church can well enough abide the true Religion of Christ to be damnably abused not onely without reprehension but also with allowing For when the Friars Dominicanes Franciscans had forged a newe Gospell out of the doctrine of Ioaâ—himus and the visions of Cyril which they called the Gospell of the holy Ghost the Gospell that should endure hereafter the euerlasting Gospell which diuilish gospell they affirmed to be so much more perfect then the Gospell of Christ as the Sunne is more perfect then the Moone a kernell of a nut before the shell yet did not the Church of Rome once reprehend it So that it was cultiued 55 yeares and at length set forth to be openly expounded in the Vniuersitie of Paris Anno Dom. 1255. without open reprehension of any but such as were counted heretikes for their labour As Gulielmus de S. Amore Gerardus Sagurellus c. And finally when the matter was brought before the Pope Anno Dom. 1256. by Gulielmus de S. Amore and other sent from the Vniuersitie of Paris the Pope and the Cardinalls tooke oâ—der that it shoulde be priuily burned and not openly reprehended for shaming their orders Mathaeus Paris Whereby it is clearely proued that the Romish Church hath suffered wicked men damnably to abuse Religion without open or priuie reprehension for the space of 55. yeares and at length without open reprehension when there was no remedie but it must needes be reprehended wherefore if there be any grace in you you will recant The 28. article conteyneth 3. demandes 1 If vnitie in Faith austeritie of life sharpe discipline great penance much fasting large almes godly deuotion obedience to higher powers grauitie and constancie in all cases be not the signes of the true Church IF you aske of true Faith repentance discipline c. these might be signes of the true Church but if you meane vnitie in any faith c as it seemeth by your wordes the Mahometistes and Turkes are the true Church for they haue vnitie in their faith austeritie of life sharpe discipline fasting almes deuotion obedience grauitie Constance c. as much or rather more then the popish church 2 Or be not more in our Church then in their Congregation I recant YOu haue not vnitie in true faith for you knowe not what it meaneth but are vtter enemies vnto it and in your owne principles there is no vnitie whether the Pope or the Councell be superior c. you may as all hypocrites pretende austeritie of life when you are most luxurious riotors as the world knoweth your discipline is not so sharpe but money wil make it blunt you haue great penance but no true repentance you haue much abstinence from meates which is the doctrine of diuills but you fast as litle as other men your almes are large but without faith and therefore sinne your deuotion is blinde and not godly but like her mother Ignorance you are disobedient to Christian Magistrates submitting your selues to Antichrist your grauitie and constancie in all cases is better commended of your self then knowne of other men Wherefore being voyde euen of these which you make the signes of the true Church you are none of the true Church except you recant 3 But if discorde in religion licentiousnes in lyuing contempt of Discipline reiecting of penance lothesomnesse of fasting lacke of zeale and deuotion disobedience to Magistrates sacriledge apostacie breach of vowes vnlawfull lustes wantonnesse in all life and maners if these thinges I say agree not better to the Protestants than the Catholikes or if these be not the plaine signes and fructes of a false church and doctrine I recant WE acknowledge that in the outward face of our church be many hypocrites chargeable with these crimes that you speake of and we yelde our selues guiltie before God of greuous offences that our life is not aunswerable vnto our doctrine Neuerthelesse we doubt not but God for Christ his sake will haue mercy vpon vs But if in life and conuersation we be compared with you Papistes euen the cheefest of your church as Popes Cardinalls Byshoppes Monkes c. We dare approue our life to be honester both before God and men You shall neuer be able to charge vs with such ryot whoredome adulterie incest sodomitry bestiality murther poysoning necromancie apostasie blasphemie c. as both the worlde seeth to ouerflowe in your Prelates at this daye and we are able to bring forth of your owne Cronicles and Hystories to haue ben committed in times past wherefore for very shame leaue of this comparison We meinteine no stewes neither of males nor females we set forth no bookes in commendation of Sodomitry we exact no tribute of Courâ—isans to kepe open bawdrie we priuiledge no writinges that teache men to committe vylanie worthy of a thousand deathes Therefore be not so impudent to charge vs with these crimes aboue the Papistes but rather forsake that filthie whore the mother of all fornication and recant The 29. article conteyneth 8. demandes 1 Let any Protestant in the worlde proue vnto me that their church coulde rightly be called Catholike which was so particular that no man aliue coulde name a place where any such church was WHy might not our Church when it was most hidden be as rightly called Catholike as the Church of the Apostles when it was so particular that it was coÌ„teined in the narrow bondes of Iury for it is not called Catholike because it shoulde be euery where for that it neuer was nor shal be But because that where so euer it be in partes it is one body of christ The Popish church is not in euery parte of the worlde For Mahomets sect is in the greatest parte Many cuntries are Idolaters and the most parte of them that professe the name of Christ are not in the felowship of the Popish church And whereas you saye that no man aliue coulde name the place where it was you make an impudent lye For although it were vnknowen to the Papistes and enemies thereof yet was it knowen to the true members therof It was in Italie wheÌ„
so notorious false that it grew to no greate heade at that time or else it was not so much regarded because it was ioyned to that horrible falshood of Arius against the blessed Godhood of Christ Iesus our Sauiour Euery greate wast of religion hath many false opinions knit together amongest which one being as principall ground shadoweth the other lesser branchies as nowe the blasphemy of the holy Sacrificie and Sacrament being the fountaine of their heresies in a maner couereth the meaner puddells of their stinking doctrine And amoÌ„gest other this vnnaturall affection of forbidding the reliefe of the parted seemeth euer to be ioyned as an appendix to other falsehoods For in holy Damascens dayes this secte appeared againe with other false doctrine as a companion of all mischiefe And to proue it to be an heresie he seeketh out the first founder thereof and findeth euen as before that vnder the deuill this Aërius was the father of that faythlesse assertion VVhome he bayteth well fauourdly in a whole oration and so driues the woolfe in to the woodde againe 4 Now at the length commeth the author of this heresie by the testimony of Epiphanius and Augustine But neither of them confuteth it by the Scriptures but by the coÌ„mon error of their tyme I could proue out of Irenaeus and Epiphanius that the first that brought in estimation the figure of the crosse images were the Valentinians Carpocratianes But that is no aunswere to this matter I haue promised to proue that the opinion of purgatory had the same original that the most notable heresies had Tertullian though him selfe an heretike yet truely describeth the originall of heresies in his booke de praescriptionibus aduersus haereses That as true doctrine was receiued from Christ by the Apostles â—o heresie from the deuill by Philosophers and Gentyles Also in his booke de anima he sheweth that all Philosophers which graunted the immortality of the soule as Pythagoras Empedocles and Plato assigned 3. places for the soules departed heauen hell and a third place of purifying Carpocrates as Irenaeus doth testifie was a great admirer of Philosophie in so much that with the imagies which he made of Christ he ioyned the imagies of Pythagoras Plato and Aristotle This heretike learning out of Plato his philosophy that mens soules must be purified after their death inuented a kinde of purgatory out of the opinion of Pythagoras and proued it out of that place of S. Matthew Thou shalt not come forth vntill thou hast payed the vttermost farthing euen as the Papists do Iren. lib. 1. ca. 24. The Heracleonites as Augustine witnesseth came yet a step more towardes the Papistes for they would redeeme their deade after a new maner namely by oyle balme water and inuocation sayd ouer their heades in the Hebrew tongue But Montanus of whom Tertullian receiued his heresie had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes First that the Patriarkes before Christes comming were in hell that Abrahams bosome was in hell or in the lower parts as M. Allen had rather speake that onely Martyrs and perfect men are priuiledged of God to goe into Paradise that all small offences must be punished after this life where the prison is the vttermost farthing to be payed witnes of this is Tertullian in his booke de anima ca. de inferis c. vlt. an aliquid patiaÌ„tur animae apud inferos c. His words are these after he hath proued that soules may suffer after their death In summa cum carcerem illuÌ„ quod EuangeliuÌ„ demoÌ„strat inferos intelligimus nouissimuÌ„ quadraÌ„tem modicum quodque delictum mora resurrectionis illic luenduÌ„ interpretamur nemo dubitabit animaÌ„ aliquid peÌ„sare penes inferos salua resurrectionis plenitudine per carneÌ„ quoque Hoc etiaÌ„ Paracletus frequeÌ„tissimè coÌ„meÌ„dauit si quis sermones eius ex agnitione promissoruÌ„ charismatuÌ„ admiserit To conclude when we do vnderstand that prison which thing the Gospell sheweth to be hell or the lower partes and do expound that the vttermost farthing which is euery small fault must there be punished with delay of resurrection no man shall doubt but that the soule in hell doth suffer somthing sauing the fulnes of the resurrection by the flesh also And this the comforter hath often times commended if any man will admitte his sayings by acknowledging of the promised gratious giftes By the comforter he meaneth the spirite of Montanus whose heresie he defended And therefore it is not otherwise to be thought but that the Montanistes vpon the ground of this opinion not content with the oblations for the deade which the Church then had by peruerse emulation of the Gentiles and yet were but oblations of thankes giuing as they could be no other for the birth dayes they added also prayers for the spirites of them that were deade whereof Tertullian maketh mention in his bookes de castitate de Monogamia which were both written to heretikes of his sect and by those prayers laboreth to proue that second mariages are not lawfull Also in his booke de anima before named though for an other purpose he rehearseth a miracle of a woman whom he knew of his sect for none other he couÌ„ted of the Church which after she was deade and prepared to buriall by prayer of the Priestes at the first beginning of his prayer she tooke vp her handes from her sides and held them vp as they that vse to pray and when the office of buriall was ended layd them downe agayne This miracle I take to haue bene an illusion of Sathan to confirme that new opinion that prayers profited the deade as that also which he reporteth of heare say of some of his sect that when two bodies should be buried in one graue the one lay further and made roome for the other which was no doubt a sleight of Satan to commend the vnitie of heretikes And that the practise of the Church for oblations for the deade at the yearly day of their birth were taken from the Gentiles it appeareth by this that Tertullian counteth them of all one origen with the oblations pro natalitijs that is for the birth dayes which Beatus Rhenanus a Papist and a great antiquary doth confesse affirming that by the canons of the Nicene councell and other councels which he hath seene in libraries those oblations pro natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon tradition of the Apostles were abrogated And the oblations them selues which were at burialls mariages birth dayes he affirmeth were mony that was offered in almes to the reliefe of the poore Origen to much a Philosopher was not content with Plato his purification but he must bring in Platoes fire also and that he would build as the papistes doe and as he had better reason then the Papistes haue out of the 1. Cor. 3. but because the Apostle sayd that euery mans worke should be tryed by fire he
may by the example of Christ aunswere one question with an other why was it first reueiled to the Arians in councell holden against Christ that the article of his descent into hell was meete to be added to the creede and confession of faith which was not reueiled to so many godly meÌ„ as set forth the Symbole nor to the holy Nicene Councell Aunswere me if you can or any Robin good fellowe of your sect â–ª learned or vnlearned is it any preiudice to the trueth of that article or to the right that it hath to be placed in the creede that it was first added by the Arrians why was the trueth reueiled to heretikes concerning rebaptisation rather then to Cyprian and so many catholicke byshoppes why was it reueiled to the Pelagians that infantes might be saued without the participation of the sacrament of Christes body and bloude rather then vnto S. Augustine Innocentius byshoppe of Rome and as Augustine sayeth all the catholicke fathers of that time which thought it was as necessary for them to receiue the communion as to be baptised If heretikes shoulde not affirme somethinge that were true they shoulde neuer deceiue any man And sometime Satan affirmeth the trueth not because he will haue it beleeued but rather that proceding out of his lying mouth it might the sooner be discredited And therefore sometymes Arrians Pelagians Anabaptistes and such like by the subtilty of Satan haue affirmed somethinge that is true either to winne credit to their manifolde lyes or else to drowen the credit of that trueth among so many errors 7 Nay I will pose you further is not your preaching the very ready waye to all such extreeme blasphemies as they boldely mainteine did euer man fall from the Catholicke Church to those further heresies then you yet openly professe but he tooke yours by the waye as a plaine passage to extreme infidelitie yea your opinions doe so well stande with the other that they neede not afterwarde to refuse any one pointe of all your doctrine to mainteine their owne There is no article of Catholicke doctrine but it is as much hated of them as of your selues Helpe your selues here my maisters or else all the worlde will take you to be in your heartes of the same sectes wherevnto your faith is alwayes so dearely ioyned Put your heades together and tell vs whie your doctrine is so deare to the AriaÌ„s all wicked men so hated of the holy fathers of Christes Church If you frame not your aunswere well you liese your credites your scholars and your honesties VVell thus haue I pointed out your author his name was Aërius you must be called Aërians you maye kepe the name of Protestaunts or Euangelistes beside For a holy newe calling is lightly ioyned to such men VVhereby though some simple be deceyued yet wâ—se men be warned Or if the olde authors of this secte be not so glorious as these new reuiuers if they list and like so they may call them selues Lutherans or Caluinistes or what they will but Catholickes Although Martyn Luther graunted purgatory and prayers with this error that such as were there might yet by their diuers deseruinges winne or loose life euerlasting as men of doubtefull state as they were before in the worlde plaine against our Sauiours admonition and carefull warning veniet nox quando iam nullus operari potest VVorke whiele the day lasteth for the night shall come wheÌ„ no man can labour But I neede not to stande vpon this point which of neither parte is much regarded Neither will I spende any more time in getting them an author of their secte seeing they haue choise of diuers Let them goe out of the Citye of God from amongest the holy company and turne on the lifte hande and looke amongest the outcastes of all agies and they shall haue freindes and fellowes enowe 7 That you saye of our preaching to be the waye to so many heresies might haue bene sayed of the Gentiles and Iewes to the whole Church of Christians The Gentiles continued constant so did the Iewes without schisme in their errors when the professors of Christianity were rent and torne into an hundreth sectes and heresies There were no heretikes but they hated Iewes and Gentiles as much as the true Christians was therefore the religion of the Iewes and Gentiles better then the religion of the Christians Yea there neuer was since Christ any heresie or heretike but they agreed in many more thinges with the Christians then with the Gentiles and Iewes was therefore the Christian religion false or the Paganes and Iewes superstition true It is therefore no dâ—sâ—redit of our doctrine that Arrians or Anabaptistes of our time either haue any thing of yours or prayse any thing of ours Neither our credit schollers nor honestie are in daunger for their errors which they learned not of vs neither are your wit learning or heresie the greater for vttering this foolish conceipte which no more toucheth vs or defendeth you then it carpeth the religion of Christ and mainteineth the Idolatrie of the heathen The worlde seeth what vaine reasons you leane vnto being destitute of the worde of god An heretike helde this opinion therefore it is false The deuill beleueth there is one God therefore shall not Christian men beleue so why woulde God reueile any trueth to heretikes why did the Pharizees which otherwise were heretikes defende the resurrection of the deade This vaine frothe of wordes and smoke of foolish and vnlearned questions will euen fall downe and vanish awaye of it selfe though it be not blowen away by vs The latter end of this chapter hath one croppe of his olde custome to charge Luther with defending of Purgatory which either was while he remained in ignorance or else it is but a fained fable as many other of him and others are deuised by the Papists who as they erre from the trueth of God so they delight in sclaundering of good men but they shall not preuaile their madnes is made knowen to all men That their falsehood is condemned and the Catholicke trueth approued by the authority of holy Councells Their pride in contemning and the Catholickes humilitie in obedient receyuing the same And a sleight vvhereby the heretikes deceiue the people is detected CAP. XV. 1 ANd for our parte it is sufficient good reader that we knowe the first founder thereof and that we be nowe right well assured that he in his time and his scholars in theirs haue bene noted called and condemned for heretikes in this as in other fonde peruerse opinions beside not onely by the singular iudgements of diuers learned men but by the common sense and consent of the worlde and by auncient Councells both generall and particular as we maye reade in the Councells of Carthage the iiij of Bracharense and Vase the Decrees of which by occasion we rehearsed once before They are both auncient and of greate authority and honored with the presence of