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A18620 The state of the now-Romane Church Discussed by way of vindication of the Right Reuerend Father in God, the Lord Bishop of Exceter, from the weake cauills of Henry Burton. By H.C. Cholmley, Hugh, ca. 1574-1641. 1629 (1629) STC 5144; ESTC S107813 40,972 128

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vseful to ioyne vs together again in one communion The former whereof is false as hath beene shewed in the former answers The latter dependeth vpon the scandals of the Author for the better vnderstanding whereof wee are to know That the reformed Churches neuer made a full and totall separation from the Church of Rome but onely partiall from her corruptions Non tam ab ea quam ab eius erroribus discessimus saith Iewel in his Apologie which is the common voice of all euen of Perkins himselfe in his Reformed Catholike who sh●wes in euery head of doctrine how farre wee may and must hold communion with that Church and to this and no more hath the Reuerend Author respect in this assertion Now this Calumniator would make the world beleeue that his intent is to vse a meanes by help of this distinction to ioyne vs together againe in one communion in those things wherein we are already separated which as it was far from his heart and meaning for his whole Treatise tends to the contrary so indeed it were a vaine thing for him to endeuour it by this distinction For it would be all one as if hee should say As she is a visible Church wee may communicate with her in her corruptions But as she is Babylon we may not Which is indeede the folly which hee illustrateth by his two similitudes of societie with a strumpet and the deuill Thus you see the honesty and wisedome of the man and by this you may iudge of his zeale for the glory of God Author They haue not well heeded the charitable profession of zealous Luther Nos fatemur c. We professe saith hee that vnder the Papacie there is much Christian good yea all c. I say moreouer that vnder the Papacie is true Christianitie ●●a the very kernell of Christianity c. BVRTON Luthers speech then was true But euer distingue tempora Luther wrote that before the Councell of Trent till which the Church of Rome had not altered the rule of Faith But now wee that liue after that Councell cannot say so for in that Councell the nut was crackt the kernell reiected yea anathematized and now they haue retained no more but the broken shell of a Church Answer It is a strange thing to see how men are enamoured of their owne conceits Qui amant ipsi sibi somnia singunt saith the Poet I warrant you if M. Burton were braied in a morter yet would not these toyes depart from him Huartus in his Tryall of wits reporteth of a Noble-mans Page in Spaine that being distracted of his wits imagined himselfe to be a King in which conceit he so pleased himselfe that when hee was cured hee was displeased with the Physitian that restored him to his right minde and so I doubt M. Burton will be with those that shew him the vanities of these his imaginations Well howsoeuer it be wee must be content and suffer him to abound in his owne sense till Time the Mother of Truth reueale his grosse mistakings and in the meane while l●t it bee sufficient answer to this long discourse that here is nothing but idle repetition of those things which haue beene already answered And h●●herto we haue answered what hee hath obiected to what was said in the Booke of The old Religion concerning this argument Author Nothing can be so well said or done but may be ill taken BVRTON Now God forbid But is it well said or done to affirme that the Church of Rome is yet a true or a true visible Church Now let the Reuerend Author iudge indifferently hauing well weighed the former reasons whether we doe ill or no in taking his saying ill or whether wee had not reason to haue expected an ingenuous Palinodie or Augustine-like Retractation rather then such an Apologie which whether it be rather to be pitied then any vncharitablenesse in the Reader in taking such a saying ill let indicious charitie it selfe iudge Nor need we stretch the saying to imply that the Church of Rome is a true beleeuing Church Suffice it we except against any being yea or visibility of a true Church in the Synagogue of Rome Answer Some men are like Nettles which if a man handle softly they sting him but if hardly and roughly they are not felt Our Reuerend Antistes hauing but glanced at the zeale of some transported to such a detestation of the Romane church as if it were all error no church is deeply censured as if preferment had changed his note and taught him to speake more plausible language of the Church of Rome then eyther hee did or ought Hereupon he frames an Apologeticall milde and Christian Aduertisement to rectifie their iudgement lest their preiudice may turne more to their sinne then to his wrong What 's the issue Nothing but scorne for sooth they expected that the Reuerend Author well weighing the former reasons would haue made a pittifull Retractation and not such an Augustine-like Apologie Nay they will not acknowledge any the least mistaking in the matter yea those words Nothing can be so well said or done but may be ill taken which are the ordinary preamble to reconciliation are taken amisse and so proue themselues to be true through their frowardnesse What then is to be done Haec non succedit alia ineunda est via The Reuerend Author must vse them like hounds which the more a man beateth the better they loue him or like the wilde Irish which are most seruiceable when they are most slauishly vsed And so they shall haue their desire a Palinodie or Retractation which is That is repenteth him that hee hath dealt so fauourably with them For as for their reasons if they were not as bold and blinde as Bayard himselfe they would be ashamed to commend them to the iudgement of iudicious Charity Author Who sees not that visible referres to outward profession true to some essential principles of Christianitie neyther of them to soundnesse of beleefe BVRTON Is outward profession a sufficient marke of visibilitie for a Church This is none of those markes which the Church of England takes notice of a Church by Answer No Are not they the preaching of the word administration of sacraments and Ecclesiasticall discipline And what outward profession of Christianitie can any visible church make without these Outward profession therefore comprehendeth them all and so is a sufficient marke of visibilitie for a Church BVRTON Againe the Scripture calls them the Synagogue of Satan which call themselues Iewes and are not Answer True yet were they true Iewes in the flesh and outwardly Rom. 2. ●8 29. and so may a true visible Church of Christians be also BVRTON The Samaritanes sometimes professed themselues to bee of the Iewes religion and professed the worship of the Lord were they therefore a visible Church Answer The reason is not like because they neuer were in the Couenant of Gods grace but were aliens from the Common wealth of Israel
Rome without respect to the orthodoxe truth maintained therein Now to apply this to our purpose when wee say a papist may bee saued wee vnderstand it in the former more large sense And when the saith a papist cannot be faued he vnderstands it in the latter and more strict sense and so we are all agreed for as a theefe or a murderer or any other malefactor cannot be saued as he is such a one no more can a Papist as hee holdeth his errours for no vncleane thing shall enter into the kingdome of heauen this is the former point of his sophistrie The other is in the word renouncing For there are two kindes of renouncing One actuall and expresse another virtuall and infolded The actuall is when a man doth both in word and practice separate himselfe from the religion of the Church of Rome The virtuall is when in preparation of minde a man is ready to doc it so soone as it shall appeare to him to be sinfull and damnable when therefore he requireth that a Papist that must be saued should renounce his popery if he vnderstand the actuall renouncing thereof we acknowledge that it is necessary so soone as hee shall know and be conuicted of the euill of Popery but if he neuer be conuicted thereof so long as he liueth then we say the virtuall is sufficient which is included in generall repentance otherwise wee must confound sinnes knowne with vnknowne and generall repentance with particular This being considered a man may easily perceiue how a simple ignorant Papist whether learned or vnlearned may bee said to renounce his poperie and to be saued though he liue and die in the communion of that faith and religion So much for Sophistry Now his folly appeareth in this that he would haue us to hold that a Papist which we say may be iaued by a generall faith and repentance is saued as a Papist by vertue of his Popish ignorance idolatry and other trumpery and not as a true beleeuer by faith in Christs merits And that wee would haue some Godamercy to be giuen to Popery or silly ignorance for his saluation which ought to be so farre from the conceit of any well disposed Christian that all of vs must acknowledge that no Protestant as a Protestant communicating with the corruptions of seuerall Churches Dutch French Germane or the rest none of which are free from some enormities No Protestant I say as a Protestant can bee saued without this generall faith and repentance so as there can be no God amercy giuen to our Protestancy but onely to faith in Christs merits by which we come to be saued not as Protestants but as true beleeuers renouncing the corruptions of seuerall Churches And so a Protestant liuing and dying a Protestant may bee damned and a Papist liuing and dying a Papist may be saued BVRTON My conclusion is to be briefe No Papist as a Papist whether learned or ignorant can be saued My reason is because Popery denyeth the sauing faith of Christ and they want the meanes of faith therefore if they bee saued it must be extraordinarily c. Answere All this which followeth in this Section is nothing but an idle repetition of those things which haue beene formerly vrged and answered at large and therefore with reference thereto I pass it ouer The same also I say to the next wherein he takes it for granted that he speakes the truth and that his aduersaries do diuorce themselues from sound iudgement and right reason and haue no right charity but such as calleth euill good Because they say It is an hard sentence yea malicious and rash to say That in the Church of Rome there is no saluation All which I leaue to the discretion of the Reader So much for the two questions and the two former Authors BVRTON But others would not have it denyed that the Church of Rome is a true visible Church though not a true beleeuing Church Answer Hauing rid his hands of his two former Authors with a kinde of neglect as I said afore hee comes now to his meeke and sweet spirited Author a Reuerend Antistes of the Church of England our diuine Seneca c. against whom he bends all his forces and yet like Iudas as you see betrayeth him with kissing May not I say to him as Horace to Lydia in another case Lydia dic per omnes Te deos oro Sybarim cur properas amande Perdere So Burton for Gods sake tell me I thee pray Why thou so louingly dost Exon flay I acknowledge my poetry may bee blamed but the conceit may bee prety and tolerable though I say it my selfe for to say the truth he laboureth to kill him with kindnesse in that as much as in him lyeth hee blemisheth his well deserued Reuerend and Honorable name in the Church with his flattering opposition But he must be pardoned for he hath done it to the glory of God and the confusion of Babylon which if it might proue to be true I dare bee bold to say his Author would not only be ready to make an humble and ingenuous palinody or retractation as he sawcily requireth but euen to sacrifice his goods good name soule and body for euer But I doubt hee hath done Gods glory more hurt and Babylon more good then any Babylonian Papist hath done these many yeares Author That which Laertius speakes of Menodemus that in disputing his very eyes would sparkle is true of many of ours whose zeale transports them to such a detestation of the Romane Church as if it were all errour no Church affecting nothing more then an vtter opposition to their doctrine and ceremonies because theirs BVRTON What if we should deny this that the Church of Rome is a true visible Church Must we at the first dash be censured as men transported with zeale out of the detestation of the Church of Rome as if it were all error no Church c Answer How are you not ashamed to abuse your Reuerend Author doth hee censure all of them that deny the Church of Rome to be a true visible Church in this sort and manner are not his expresse words that it is true of many of them not of all Master Burton this dealing beseemes not one that contends for the glory of God and confusion of Babylon In my conscience no truly religious wise man will deny but many of them doe well deserue this censure and you for one BVRTON Because theirs that 's not it but because wholly Antichristian therefore we detest the whore Answer Is not that it M. Burton why then said you before in the depth of your policy that though it were true that the Church of Rome were a true Church yet the countenancing or pressing of it in these times might very well be spared haue you so soone forgotten your selfe and are the doctrine and ceremonies of that Church wholly Antichristian when you haue proued it say so but till then lay your hand