which must be acknowledged when tyrants and such as feare not God by their euill gouernement and neglect of religion many times darken the aire and hinder the raine and make the fields barren and riuers empty Pliny enquiring the reason why the fields adioyning to Rome in old time were so fruitfull saies It was because they were tilled by the chiefe gouernours such as Fabritius and Cincinnatus were Ipsorum tunc manibus Imperatorum colebantur agri gaudente terra vomere laureato triumphali aratore Which your Maiesty doing so painefully with your owne hands in a more noble field the Church of God all godly minded shall bid God speed the plow and daily waite till the briars and thornes be rooted out and the dew of Gods grace fall on the barren part that the Plowman may neuer be wearie nor his hand weake nor his workmen vnfaithful to him but all that are about him and his Noble seruants by his example may giue ouer sleeping and put their hand without looking backe to the same worke that the enuious man that soweth tares may be driuen forth and their owne houses may be the greenest and cleanest part of the field till he come that shall giue end and rest to euery labour and recompence beyond all that can be thought the workmans trauell and binding the good corne in sheaues cast the tares into vnquenchable fire God euermore continue and increase his mercies to your Highnesse and lay your enemies at your feete that you may see an end of all dissentions and stablish peace and vnity in the Church Your Maiesties most humble subiect IOHN WHITE To the Reader IT is now fiue yeares since I published a booke called THE WAY TO THE TRVE CHVRCH wherein my purpose was nothing else but onely to shew the weakenesse and insufficiency of those Motiues which leade so many to Papistrie and to bring to triall such reasons as the Iesuites and Seminaries ground themselues vpon in perswading their people against vs making it more then plaine that the corruptions of the Church of Rome are maintained and the communion of our Church in the doctrine preaching and the Sacraments thereof is refused by such as follow the Papacy vpon weake and false grounds that cannot be defended This poore booke it seemes hath not a little incensed my Aduersary and discontented many that yet should follow reason and the truth of things and not be transported with rumor and common impression For man being a noble creature endued with reason and faculty to discourse and hauing a rule left him of God whereby to examine things should not tie his faith and conscience to the authority or person of any more then the truth and the reason and euidence of that be saies will beare him out It was neuer heard of in the world till now of late yeares that the Pope and his definitions were the rule of faith or that men were bound to follow whatsoeuer he should appoint but the Church of God euery where till tyranny oppressed it examined his doctrine accepting and allowing that which agreed with the sacred Scriptures and the first antiquity and reiecting the rest and albeit many errors had long prescription yet the godly still held them to that rule of our Sauiour BVT FROM THE BEGINNING IT WAS NOT SO. Mat. 19.8 Our Aduersaries therefore may in some points possible pretend antiquitie but PRIORITIE which is the first and best antiquitie they cannot in any one thing wherein they refuse vs and whether the zealous and resolued Recusants will beleeue it or no yet it is certainely true there is no one point of Papistry Catholicke that is to say such as hath bene from the beginning generally receiued as an article of faith by the vniuersall Church And though it be granted that many parts of his religion haue long continued in the world yet were they neuer the certaine or generall doctrines of the Church but the corruptions of some therein which in time and by degrees obtained that strength and credit which now they haue it being the easiest thing of a thousand for the Pope and his clergie sitting at the sterne when themselues had once imbraced them with their strength and learning to giue them authority in the world when Mahomet himselfe by policy and tyrannie was able in time to spread abroad and a vniuersally the doctrine of his Alchoran which now is 800 yeare old and is followed by many and great nations as close as Papistrie is either in England or Italy But whē the Scripture makes it plaine that FROM THE BEGINNING IT WAS NOT SO and the Histories and monuments of antiquity and the bookes of the elder Papists and such as were chiefe in the Church of Rome beare witnesse that these things were misliked and in all ages complained of and that which the Church of England now professes was the faith of most godly men and holy Bishops though the power of the gouernors in the Church of Rome increasing they were suppresed they do but deceiue themselues that thinke our faith a new faith or the points of Papistrie the old religion I haue as well as I haue bene able and as diligently as I could with an vnpartiall eie and many teares to God for his direction in the businesse and with a heart hating contention and possessed as much as any mans liuing with desire of peace and vnity whereof my 17 yeares residence in Lancashire can giue plentifull witnesse read the Scriptures and trauelled through the writings of the Fathers and obserued the course of former times and well aduised my selfe of that which the learned of the Church of Rome in later times haue written from the elder Schoolemen to the later Iesuites though with all humility I acknowledge my selfe to be the meanest of any that haue taken this course and much lament my owne weaknesse yet am I readie whensoeuer God the Iudge of all secrets and the terrible reuenger of falsehood and partiality shall call me foorth of this world to testifie that my faith and religion and the points thereof maintained in my writings and preaching is the truth agreeable to the first antiquity and the contrary defended by the Iesuites and followed by Romish Recusants error and vncatholicke And if any persons presumed to be learned on the other side haue either in their life or death shewed extraordinary zeale for their Roman faith I desire I may be allowed my owne knowledge both of some such persons and of their iudgement and outward cariage and not be importuned to follow that which vnskilfull and vnable and partiall friends haue apprehended rather then my owne cleare knowledge both of them and their cause And if the Church of Rome haue in it diuers learned betweene whom and vs my Aduersaries will indure no comparison that write against vs yet my certaine experience of their manner of writing one against another and against knowne antiquitie and their strange maintenance of the foulest and
of such a man is to be followed in interpretatioÌ„ of Scripture or otherwise as the rule of faith or as a sufficient infallible means to leade men and to direct them in the knowledge of matters which are to be beleeued by faith Now this being the sense of my conclusion let vs heare how my aduersaries will answer my proofes 5 First he grants that a priuate man assisted by the holy Ghost may interpret Scripture truly and infallibly against a company as big as the Romane Church supposing the said company were not so assisted but it is not to be thought that the holy Ghost forsakes the Catholick Church to assist any who interpret contrary to it Which I thinke too and therfore neuer denied his coÌ„clusion nor gaine-said the arguments whereby he confirmed it in this generall sense But when these priuate men were expounded to be the reformed Churches and their Pastors and this holy Catholicke vniuersall Christian Church vnderstood to be the Papacy and the Romish faction then I affirmed that priuate men might haue the Spirit of God and his truth and the Church want it But that I be not mistaken and that the Reader may vnderstand wherein I and my aduersaries differ Note that the name of the Church may be taken 3. waies First for the whole company of such as professe Christ and his Gospell collectiuely in all ages and places which is most properly and really the Catholicke vniuersall Church So expressely o Princip doctr pag. 99. 101. edit Ascens an 1532. Waldensis This is the Catholicke Apostolicke Church of Christ meant in the Creed the mother of beleeuers whose faith cannot faile not any speciall Church Not the African as Donatus said not the particular Romane Church but the vniuersall Church not assembled in a generall Councell which we know hath sometime erred but the Catholicke Church of Christ dispersed through the whole world since the Baptisme of Christ by the Apostles and their successors to these times is it which containes the true faith and holds the certain truth in the midst of all errors Secondly for any part of this Catholicke Church in this or that time or contrey as the particular Churches of Greece Rome Corinth or any assembly of Bishops congregated in a Councell either generall or particular Thirdly for the Papacy or Romish Church peculiarly containing that faction which imbraces the Romish religion and liues vnder the Popes subiection In which sense my aduersary and all Papists alway vse the name of the Church p Est coetus hominum eiusdem Christianae fidei professione corundem Sacramentorum communione colligatus sub reginunt legitimorum Pastorum ac precipuè vnius Christi in terris Vicarij Romani Pontificis excluduntur schismatici qui habent fidem in sacramenta sed non subsunt legitimo Pastori Bell. de eccl milit c. 2. Est visibilis hominum câ—etus sub Christo apite â—â—us in terris Vicario â—astore ac summo Pontifice agens Simanch Cath. instit tâ—t 24. n. 1. defining it by this Romish faith with subiection to the Pope and excluding from it all that refuse the Papacy The which distinction being thus laied I propound my answer and that we say touching the point in the fourth proposition First No man or company of men beleeuing and expounding the Scripture contrary to that which the vniuersall Church in the first sence hath alway beleeued and expounded can be assured they haue the assistance of Gods Spirit but the contrary they may assure themselues they are led by the spirit of error The reason is for no truth can be reuealed to any but that which is in this Church for if it be not in it so that the Church neuer knew or beleeued it then it cannot be the truth For q 1. Tim. 3.15 the Church is the pillar and ground of truth and so a priuate man holding it must needs hold an error Secondly A priuate man and priuate companies of men may be and many times are so assisted by the holy Ghost that they may beleeue and expound the Scripture truly against a particular Church or Councell of Bishops either generall or particular The reason is for God hath left his truth with his Church therein to remaine for euer but not infallibly euery parcell of his truth with euery part or assembly of the Church But his prouidence and promises to his Church are sufficiently vpholden if he so support the true faith that it alway remaine in some of the Church Therefore a particular Church or councell of Bishops may at some time and in some points erre and then it cannot be denied but others may see the truth against them this proposition our aduersaries dare not denie nor do not Thirdly a priuate man and priuate companies of men beleeuing and expounding the Scripture onely against the Papacie may be infallibly assured they are assisted by the holy Ghost The reason is because this Papacie is no part of Gods truth but the late inuentions of men added vnto it Fourthly Priuate men and priuate companies of men beleeuing and expounding contrarie to the Papacie resist not the true Church of Christ nor any part of it The reason is for the Papacie being nothing else but a disease or excrement breeding in the Church must not be expounded to be the Church it selfe as a wenne or leprosie growing on the bodie is not the bodie it selfe and he that cuts off the wen or purges away the leprosie cannot be said to resist or wrong the bodie 6 These foure propositions thus laid downe it is manifest my aduersarie doth but cauill in this place For if his conclusion intended no more but that priuate men must not be thought to know the truth and the true Catholick Church to be in error no man would speake against him But the sence of his conclusion is against the three last of my propositions That no man can be thought inspired of God or to haue the truth when he expounds Scripture as Luther and his did contrary to the church of Rome in which sence onely I dispute against him and in no other Not affirming that priuate men may see the truth and the Catholicke vniuersall Church not see it but onely that priuate men beleeuing contrary to that which my aduersarie meanes by the Catholicke vniuersall Church may haue the truth on their side and be infallibly sure therof without holding any thing contrary to the vnamine interpretation of the precedent or liuing Pastors of the sound part of the Catholicke Church CHAP. XXXIII 1. How a priuate man is assured he vnderstands and beleeues aright touching the last and highest resolution of faith 2. Luthers reiecting the Fathers 3. Occhams opinion that no man is tied to the Pope or his Councels 4. The Beraeans examined the doctrine that they were taught 5. The faith of the beleeuer rests vpon diuine infused light 6. M. Luther sought reformation with all humilitie 7. Scripture is the
elect be pag. 240. the Church thus considered is altogether inuisible but the question is not touching this Church and therfore against his conclusion I haue also affirmed thirdly that the Church consisting of professors sometime is inuisible that is to say the whole number of true beleeuers and professors liuing in the world which we call the Church Militant sometime loose the outward conspicuousnes of Apostolicke doctrine and gouernment free from abuses which the Papists say they alway hold Touching this assertion he notes two things 7 First the reason why we maintaine it That when he forsooth shall afterwards vrge vs to assigne a continuall professing Protestant company as he can shew a continuall company of Professors of the Roman faith we may by this starting hole escape without answer This is but winde and ostentation he can shew no continuall company successiuely or visibly professing the Roman faith with all the articles thereof as now it is holden he may set downe a catalogue of Bishops Doctors Councels and Professors that in all ages haue bene in the world but that they beleeued as himselfe and the Iesuites and his Romish Church now do otherwise then in the substantiall articles of faith wherein we agree with them or that there were none among them that misliking the corruptions of the Papacy as they grew held in the substance of the Protestants religion he can neuer shew as will appeare The true cause why we maintaine the Church to be sometime inuisible is this that I shall lay downe * The manner how the question touching the visibility of the Church first began and in what sense For when Luther and the first Reformers some hundred yeares agoe withdrew themselues from the subiection of the Pope and put away these innumerable errors out of their Churches which our Aduersaries now maintaine against vs as the doctrine of image worship Inuocation of Saints Purgatory the Masse Transubstantiation and the rest wherein our Aduersaries and we dissent altering nothing of that which belongs to the substance of true faith or which the Church of Rome had receiued from the Apostles and Primitiue Church but onely contrary to the customes of some ages before professing the same without the mixture of the aforesaid errors the Pope with his crew cried out they were Heretickes persecuting them with fire and sword and charging them to haue forsaken the Church of Christ wherein they should be saued and among other arguments his Champions required them to shew the succession of their doctrine and Pastors boasting that vnlesse they could do it and shew their Church to haue visibly bene in all ages they would conclude they had forsaken the Church and were the first authors of the Protestant Religion The Reformers to this answered that THE CHVRCH OF ROME IT SELFE was their visible Church wherein they were bred and whence they proceeded but therein was two kinds of Articles of Religion The one which was Apostolicke and had bene from the beginning the other that which at seuerall times by the faction and conueiance of Hereticks had bene brought in and mingled with the truth this latter they had renounced but not the former making it more then manifest that in the substance of the truth and rule of faith taught by the Apostles and certainely holden by the ancient Church they had altered nothing but onely separated themselues from intollerable corruptions and from the Popes tyranny that maintained and vrged them who by his tyranny and peruerting all things had declared himselfe to be Antichrist sitting in the Church of God And when the Papists still cried SHEW VS A VISIBLE CHVRCH IN ALL THE WORLD PROFSSING IN ALL THINGS AS YOV DO they replied it was not necessary so to do THE CHVRCH OF ROME IT SELFE was the visible Church professing as they did in all things substantiall But if they required such a Church as had put away those errors and held the substance without corruptions and heresies mingled among the Professors then such a Church was sometime inuisible that is to say it may sometime fall out that in all the world no part of the Church shall be outwardly seene to hold the succession of all the true faith without corruption and the purest Professors may be oppressed that their memory shall be taken away and that which is the worst part of the Church shall be strongest and generally reputed most Catholicke This is the true and originall reason of this question whereby it is easie to see that we neuer imagined the Church to be simply inuisible at any time but this inuisibility hath bene affirmed onely of the outward state thereof at some times when reformation hath not bene so pure as now it is No otherwise then I would say the body was inuisible when a Leprosie had ouergrowne it or the kingdome of France were inuisible when tyranny and new customes should mingle themselues therewith and the ancient lawes be expounded by a faction of Rebels 8 By this his second exception that to defend a paradoxe I haue peruerted the state of the question is answered For it is cleare hereby that the question is of the militant Church and so D. Stapleton m Relect. p. 2. sayes expresly In this controuersie the appellation of the Church principally belongs to the militant company And the two things mentioned touching it that it may consist of a small number and that it professes sometime in secret being taken in the sense deliuered are so farre from being blind shifts that they cannot be disproued by bragging and if there be any mettall or truth in my Aduersary here I spur him and let him answer freely That which I noted is the cleare confession of many n In THE WAY Digr 17. n. 3. learned Papists themselues Alexand. Durand Turrecremata Parnormitan Pererius Ouandus Acosta the Rhemists Dom Scoto Gregory Valence But these being principall men in the Church of Rome must not be said to teach blind shifts but the truth that therefore which I noted is the truth If it be the truth that the Church militant in respect of the best part thereof may sometime consist of a small number and may secretly that the world cannot see it professe the faith how can the truth bleare the Readers eye or bewitch his vnderstanding when that which befals the Church at one time may befall it againe though not at any yet at some time and whether the yeares were more or lesse wherein we say it was obscured yet they were the yeares of the persecution of Antichrist and in Antichrists time o Ioh. Parisiens tract de Antich p. 45. edit Venet apud Laz. Soarol an 1516. When the Church is turned into Armageddon the mount of theeues no Papist will deny but it may be inuisible in the sense that we hold as I shewed in the 17. Digression and himselfe confesses in that which immediatly followes CHAP. XXXIX 1 The Papists are inforced to yeeld the same that we
Church so vniuersally that there was no visible companie of people appearing to the world free from it and whether any company at all knowne or vnknowne were free from it wholy or not I neither determine nor greatly care All that I hold touching the inuisible Church being that the true Church being ouergrowne with heresie and corruption there hath not at all times bene therein a distinct company to be seene which in all points were free from the corruption though there may be shewed a company that held all the substantiall points simply necessary to saluation Had the Iesuite vnderstood my words in this sense which I often declared all ouer my Booke he would neuer haue trifled away time in prouing the Church whose doctrine is the rule to be visible which I deny not but he would haue gone roundly to worke in shewing the visible Church to be neuer so corrupted but there is some one or more speciall companies therein visibly to be seene by all and separated from the rest that is not defiled with the corruption For the Church is visible to be seene at all time more or lesse whose teaching in the sound part thereof is to be followed to the worlds ende Neuerthelesse first he excepts that I say the question is of the Church militant containing as part of it euill men and hypocrites whereas to speake precisely he makes not the Question that way but to cut off occasions of cauill he saies he desputes whether the Church whereof he spake in the precedent Chapters whose doctrin in all ages is the rule of faith whether I say this Church be in all ages visible or sometimes inuisible as if the Church whose doctrine is the rule in all ages were any other then the militant His conclusions whereby he taught his friend how to resolue himselfe in religion were these That there is a rule left by God whereby all men may be instructed This rule is not the Scripture but the doctrin of the true Church which Church is alway visible that all men at all times may see it wherein he affirmes as I do the militant Church to be visible because that onely is it that mortall men can heare and haue accesse to and this I shew distinctly to be the question For first his owne expresse words are c In THE WAY pag 99. It is euident that the Church militant consists of good and bad but this Church consisting of good and bad is the same that before in his conclusion he affirmed to be visible confuting our supposed ground wherupon we held it inuisible Secondly in this very passage he sayes it is true that the same Church he speakes of is the Church militant or part of it Thirdly he expounds himselfe to meane that Church whose doctrine is the rule to teach vs. But the doctrine of no Church teaches vs but that of the Militant liuing here vpon earth where they that liue are taught Fourthly he meanes that Church whereto euery one may haue accesse and repaire for instruction whereto also they may ioine themselues and wherein they may admonish their brethren and therefore precisely he speakes of the Militant church vpon earth and his words that to speake precisely he makes not the question this way but onely askes whether the Church whose doctrine is the rule be visible are so precise that a man would think his head-peece were not wel seasoned when either he must grant this his visible Church to be militant or confesse it to be none of Gods Church for so much as all the Church of God whose doctrine is the rule of faith is for the time being militant here on earth and part of that which is mentioned in the Creed where we say credo Ecclesiam Therefore the question betweene vs is whether the companie of those that professe and teach the true faith of Christ without mixture of corruption among whom possible many hypocrites and wicked men liue which companie is called the Militant-church be at all times visible The Reply sayes it is and must no more denie his assertion to be meant euen precisely of this companie 4 His second exception is about the words visible and inuisible where he sayes fiue things First that by a visible Church I make him to mean a company alway so illustrious that it may be knowne to all men liuing at all times Secondly that I make him to meane this companie also to be so illustrious that actually it is thus knowne Thirdly that he meanes not the word visible in this second sence Fouthly that he knowes the Church is sometime obscured and shines not actually through the whole world Fiftly that the Church is alway visible in this sence that alway euen in the greatest obscuritie it hath some eminent professors which either are actually knowne or may in particular be assigned The first is true for he sayes it expresly in the last And I suppose he will not denie it when so many of his owne Diuines hold it Dom. Bannes d Tom. 3. pag. 103. sayes the Church is so visible that it is palpable Bellarmine e De Eccl. l. 3. c. 13. God hath at all times a Church consisting not of a few people but of a great multitude as conspicuous as any earthly kingdome Greg. of Valence f Tom. 3 p. 143. Our assertion is that in all ages there may euidently be seene and discerned and as it were pointed out with the finger a companie of men whereof euery one may beleeue that it is the true Church The second is false For though it follow manifestly vpon his words and that which the Diuines of his church teach of the visâ—â—â—lenesse of their church yet I charged him not so farre but contented my selfe with confuting that which is contained in his first and last assertion Neuerthelesse it is true that he and all Papists must by their owne principles hold the Church to be euen actually visible to all men For he sayes g Repl. p. 170. God hath giuen sufficient meanes to all men for their saluation h In THE WAY §. 13. and the teaching of this his church is the meanes But no meanes is sufficient that is not actually reuealed as i Ch. 25. n. 15.16 I haue shewed heretofore out of the Repliers owne authors Therefore if sufficient meanes be onely that which is actually reuealed and the Church be the meanes it followes the Church must be actually visible or else let vs see how the Replier will quit himselfe The third is also false as I haue said but yet allowing it to be true I haue not peruerted the question because I affirme and dispute against the visiblenesse of the Church in that sâ—nce which he holds in the first and last assertion The fourth I accept as the truth and haue shewed in k Digr 17. THE WAY that as his owne Diuines expound it it vtterly destroyes his first and last assertions and yeelds as much as
ordinarily haue to publish the profession of other religions which tend to Gods dishonor And that wheras it was prophecied of the Church that it should be more ample and glorious then the Synagogue of the Iewes was in the most flourishing estate it should be so far from being more ample and glorious that it were sometime more narrow or lesse conspicuous then the Synagogue of the Iewes euer was or now is in her ruinate estate Moreuer it were a notable hinderance to the good of innumerable * Because the knowledge of the Church is necessarie for all those which will be saued therefore our Sauiour said that she could not be hidden Aug. ep 170. soules which by teaching and conuersation of the faithfull might most easily be conuerted to the faith who otherwise for want of hearing or possibility to heare that there were any such religion should through ignorance perish Thirdly the Church is bound by the negatiue precept of profession of faith neuer to deny Christ or the truth of his religion nor to professe outwardly the rites and ceremonies of any contrary religion by which abstaining from Seruice and ceremonies of other Religions the Church could not especially for any long time liue so secret but it should be noted and knowne as we see Catholickes to be at this day detected by their refusal to come to Protestant seruice and sermons and as Protestants in Queene Maries daies were notified by abstaining from Catholicke seruice and Sacraments 4 This which he notes thirdly containes three arguments to shew the nature of the Church to be such that it cannot be secret from the world at least so long a time as the Protestants pleade for an inuisible Church First because it is bound to actuall and outward profession Next it should be lesse conspicuous then the Synagogue of the Iewes which were against the Prophecyes Thirdly innumerable soules should perish for want of Church teaching when they could not see the Church Ad. 3. The last of these reasons I answered in the WAY Ad. 2. whereto because he replies nothing I refer both him and his Reader To the second I answer that the glory and praeminence of the Church aboue the Synagogue prophesied stands not in the perpetuall visiblenes thereof as our aduersaries define visiblenes 1. Esa 60. 11. Act 10.11 but in foure other things First the compasse and limits which was no longer to be confined within Iudaea 2. Ioh. 4.23 but inlarged to all nations Secondly the manner of worship which should not be any longer carnal and typicall 3. Heb. 8.6 but spirituall Thirdly the dignity of the Ghospell and the promises annexed thereunto aboue the law and the promises thereof wherein the Iewes were trained vp Fourthly 4. Heb. 12.28 cum 27. in the continuance thereof which was to be not till a certaine time as the Synagogue was but for euer to the worlds end Thus it was promised that the Church should exceed the Synagogue which promise may well stand with that which we say for the apostasie that preuailed a 2. Th. 2.3 Apoc 9.2 12.6 13.14 17.2 was also prophecied which being at the highest yet the Church lost not these prerogatiues but her faith continued still to be Catholicke in those that vpheld the substantiall articles thereof all ouer the world howsoeuer the apostasie brought in many and dangerous heresies that were holden besides in the Church as the Synagogue also sometimes was ouerwhelmed with the like corruptions 5 His first reason is Ad. 1. because the Church is bound by a negatiue precept neuer to deny Christ or his religion or to abstaine from the seruice and ceremonies thereof but outwardly to professe the faith To this I answered in b §. 19. my Booke that the Church neither failes to professe outwardly the faith which in heart it beleeues nor yet is made visible and knowne to all by this profession The reason is because the members of the Church professing the substance of faith as c 1. Reg. 19.18 the 7000. in Israel did that bowed not the knee to Baal whom Elias saw not when persecution and preuailing error will not suffer them to do it in the purest manner in all points yet this is outward profession and satisfies the commandement which requires no more but 2. things first that we professe openly to the world as long as the same wil suffer vs and be ready to seale the faith thus professed with our bloud when by necessary circūstances of time and place we shall be called thereunto secondly that when persecution or inuincible ignorance or any other impediment hinders that this cannot be done yet we professe one to another and maintaine the faith wheresoeuer or how few soeuer so farre as we haue meanes to vnderstand To this my aduersary replies that indeede the rites and ceremonies of seruice and sacraments whereby he meanes the profession mentioned in as much as by the exercize of these things Christ is professed may though hardly be done in secret but the Church is bound to another kind of actuall profession before the world I answer 2. things First himselfe knew this absolutely taken to be false and therefore he recalles himselfe and yeeldes againe that all the members of the Church are not bound at all times actually to shine in this maner but then when Gods glory and the good of soules requires This he borrowed of his Thomas whose words shall be this part of my answer For the Church and the seuerall members thereof are neuer so hidden or ouerwhelmed with error but in time and place necessarily requiring the same they professe the substance euen outwardly and suffer sometime for the same and thus did many professe the Protestants faith in all ages and therefore the Iesuite trifles away the time when he standes to proue it necessary that euen alway some or other should professe outwardly for we graunt it and that there are some eminent Christians if not in state yet in faith and truth at all times and these loue God feare not the world but regard his honour and desire to publish his truth and what yee will and yet still these men may be oppressed with some corruptions and hindered by persecution that few can marke or discerne them and so contemptible in the world that the most will not beleeue them by reason the externall greatnesse and opinion of their persecutors wherto by all subtiltie and tyrannie they haue aspired shall dazell the eies of men that they cannot discerne the truth * Where the Protestants Church was before Luthers daies Secondly I answer that euen the members of the Church of Rome it selfe as the Bishops of France and England with their congregations for example professed thus outwardly to all the world the Christian faith for albeit they were some of them more and some lesse corrupted with the Apostacy vniuersally spread ouer the Church and had entertained the abuses that
satisfaction he may repairâ— to that I writ And wheras the Iesuite notes that the true Church being a light and visible it cannot be but Gods prouidence and humane diligence would prouide some record of histories to find it this is true and shall be yeelded him and let our reformed Churches of the Protetestants neuer be counted part of the Catholicke Church if all Ecclesiasticall records in the world beginning with the new Testament and so descending by the writings of the ancient Fathers till you come to the very times of Luther do not shew the articles of their faith to haue bene professed in the Church of Rome as I haue often said its selfe and that which we haue cast off and wherein the Iesuites and wee differ this day to be no part of the ancient faith but late innouations brought in by faction that it was lawfull for vs to put them away and reduce things to the first antiquity And this I say not to ground our faith on humane reports but to testifie that I grant such prouidence of God for the confirming our faith though if such Histories were wanting as they are not it should not moue vs so long as we haue the Scriptures to iustifie our doctrine wherewith whatsoeuer consents is the truth whether Histories which are but a humane testimony and vnable to authorize or support faith mention the succession thereof or not But when my aduersary will needs haue it that one chiefe vse of History is to shew the continuance of the Church that seeing thereby this continuance we might know it to be the Church of God and not finding it we might know thereby that it is not the Church I will not striue with him but acknowledge the prouidence of God and industry of man who hath left the records of History to confirme our faith and freely grant our religion to be false if the continuall descent thereof from Christ cannot by such record be shewed Wherein we are so resolute that next the euidence of the sacred Scripture this is our greatest motiue against the Trentisme and Iesuitisme of the now Church of Rome that by all histories and writings of record we find it to be an innouation against the ancient religion and a rabble of heresies from time to time added and brought in to that which in the beginning was professed in the Church of God and if any man be so inamoured of Rome as to imagine that part of the religion thereof which we haue forsaken as the Supremacy Transubstantiation Traditions Latine seruice and the rest to be come in a continuall lineall descent from Christ downe through all ages to these times he will finde himselfe deceiued when he makes the triall or if he be so vnlearned that he cannot make this triall or so besotted with the conceite of Papistry that he will not or so oppressed with the craft of such as this Repliar is that he cares not yet it satisfies me and giues my soule contentment against the day of my death that reading all manner of ancient records Councels Fathers Church Histories Greeke and Latine though I haue not read all I find Papistry to be none of the ancient religion vniformely imbraced in the Church but an heresie brought in by the packing and ambitious policy of some growing as a Leprosie successiuely one peece after another to it And reading the later Diuines and Schoolemen that writ since the 11 age I finde as in the former the whole substance of the Protestants saith deliuered but touching the rest wherein the Church of Rome and we dissent and which we haue put away as the Masse Transubstantiation Purgatory Images Freewill Merits Supremacy c I finde no vnitie or certainety among them but all things inuolued with contradictions and vncertainety that it is easie to discerne the said points to be no parcell of the ancient Catholicke Apostolicke faith It is an ancient complaint of a Vbertin de Casal tract de 7. stat eccl c. 3. p. 65. The same thing touching the Schoolmen and Diuines of the Church of Rome is reported and complained of by Sauanarola a Friar liuing sometime in Florence Multi hodiernis temporibus qui volunt videri legis Doctores ac defensores conuersi sunt in vaniloqutum obsenratum est insipiens cor eorum Dicentes enim se esse sapientes stulti facti sunt quia relicta sacrarum literarum simplicitate ad Gentilitatem se penitus conuerterunt adulterantes verbum Dei impleuerunt chartas superbissimis obscuritatibus vanissimisque verborum ornatibus ac stulta apud Deum sapientia pompaque rhethoricorum verborum Deo odiosa nec non infinitis quaestionibus inexplicabilibus ac inutilibus quae mergunt homines in interitum audientesque subuertunt in vestimentis ouium volentes videri fidei defensores factè sunt populo Dei lupi rapaces Dicunt enim se philosophiae operam dare vt melius sacras scripturas quas nunquam legere volunt intelligant meliusque veritatem Dei fidemque defendant Sed reuera quaerunt quae sua sunt non quae Jesu Christi semper addiscentes vt dicit Apostolus nunquam ad veritatis scientiam pâ—ruenientes Qui dixerunt ait Propheta linguam nostram magnificabimus labia nostra à nobis sunt Quis noster dominus est Et tantum hic morbus increuit vt Ecclesiae Praelatos Presbyteros clericos Religiosos ac Seculares totumque populum Christianum tabefecerit Adeo autem inueteratus est vt non solùm glorientur Christiani tumenti animo de Gentilium literisextollant semtipsos sed quod peius est Paganorum scientias qui in vanitate sensus sui ambulantes nihil putabant verum nisi esset inflaium verborum compositione ornatorum non verentur praepouere scientiae Dei à quo est omnium scientia quilinguas mutorum aperit facitque disertas Et multi hodiè in tantam vâ—sâ—â—iam blasphemiamque prorumpunt vt sacras Scripturas rugato naso subsannantes ita despiciant irrideant vt èarum sectatores putent pro nihilo habendos Adeo enim Princeps huius seculi excaecauit eos vt tanquam mente capti nihil seiant se omnium rerum sapientiam apprehendisse arbitrentur Taceo de muliis qui cultum Dei fidemque abnegarunt Hicron Sauanarol de ord scient l. 3. subsiti pag. 13 edit Venet. apud Aurel Pincium an 1534. Vbertin a Carthusian touching the Friars and Schoolemen that by mingling Paganish errors with the principles of faith they had blowne away the truth of the Gospell and he sayes The falling star that had the key giuen him to open the bottomles pit was certaine eminent learned and later religious men falling into earthly desires and the curious sciences of Pagans and into diuers sectes They had great witts to open and extoll the doctrine of Aristotle and Auerroes and studying in a manner nothing else they deuised deepe and gulfelicke opinions
that obscured the Euangelicall light yea by this practise of mingling Aristotle with their treatises of Diuinity they had corrupted and reiected all the articles of faith beside the vnity of the Deity And touching their vehemency and industry in following their opinions he sayes that which is worth the noting The voice of their wings that is to say of their opinions which they presume to be high and lofty in wonderfull contentions outcries and raging is like the voice of wheeles or a tumultuous army running in war this was a Friars report long agoe and my owne knowledge of these things giues me assurance and resolution whatsoeuer any man sayes to the contrary whose ignorance and peruersenesse I will neuer suffer to preiudice my certaine and familiar knowledge Pag. 247. A. D. By this which now I haue noted appeareth that the true militant Church or company of the true professors of the Gospell which as M. White White p. 87. 337. 338. Wootton pag. 164. and M Wootton grant must continue alwaies cannot at any time be altogether inuisible especially in such sort and for so long a time as they would haue the Protestant professors which were onely two called Nullus and Nemo that is to say in truth not one at all before Martin Luther to haue inuisibly continued professing the whole faith without change in all Countries or at least in one or other corner they cannot for want of Histories forsooth tell where the truth is no where in the world And consequently by this appeareth that this idle conceite of an inuisible company of professing Protestants continuing in all ages is a plaine Platonicall Idaea or poeticall Chymaera in plaine English a meere imaginary fiction inuented by Protestants to serue as a shift to bleare the eye of the simple and to make a shew of saying something to the argument grounded vpon the authority of a continuall visible Church which presseth them so much when indeed they can say nothing to it Durum telum necessitas ignoscite Need hath no law you must pardon them 2 By that which he hath noted he sayes it appeares that the Militant Church or company of true Professors cannot at any time be altogether inuisible specially in such sort or so long a time as they say the Protestant Professors were The things he noted may be reduced to eight propositions in all First that the Church in the infancy or beginning thereof was very small like a graine of Mustardseed and toward the end also in Antichrists time shall be much decaied both in the number of professors and in the visiblenesse of the outward state Secondly that this notwithstanding yet in all ages betwixt the beginning and the end it is a great multitude spread ouer the world Thirdly that the Church is not actually seene at all times by all men Fourthly that yet it is visible that is such as may be seene and knowne by all if the impediments be not on their part that should see it and by prudent and diligent inquirie may be discerned at all times And in the greatest obscurity the world may see and distinguish some eminent members therein Fifthly that it cannot alwaie practise the rites of diuine worship publikely but is forced sometime to doe it in priuate Sixthly that yet it neuer wants ordinary Pastours nor the practise of rites appertaining to the Sacraments and diuine worshippe Seuenthly which practise and inward state of the Church shall neuer be so secret but notice shall be had of it euen by Infidels and enemies and the records thereof shall remaine in Histories Eightly that it is the nature of the Church to be in this manner visible for diuers considerations These propositions containe the substance of that he noted whereupon he inferres 2. things First that the militant Church cannot at any time be altogether inuisible Next that it cannot be inuisible in such sort or so long a time as M. White saies the professors of the Protestant religion were The first I graunt him to be true and he neede not so often haue inferred it when it is not our assertion that the Church at any time is simply absolutely or altogether inuisible but onely secundum quid and respectiuely in comparison of the reformed state thereof The second is false that it cannot be inuisible in such sort or so long as we say for we say it was inuisible in this sort that at some times there was no congregation of people in the world visibly professing the faith and visibly administring the Sacraments and Church discipline without much superstition and corruption or heresie practised therewith I say visibly in my aduersaries sense that is so as this congregation was a great multitude spread ouer the world whose faith and administration thus incorrupted infidels and enemies had knowledge of and Histories recorded and wherein some eminent men might be discerned euen by the world for the contrary is true that all publike assemblies thus entirely without superstition professing or holding the faith and Ecclesiasticall gouernement may be oppressed and extinguished And thus I graunt the true Churches whose sound and necessary faith we hold failed throughout the world nor do I here intend or affirme that there were no particular eminent persons that held or professed the faith entirely for substance all errors not being mortall or no singular professions of men that were of our religion and refused the Papacy for there were many such in all ages though Nullus and Nemo be left out but our assertion proceedes of such congregations as we call particular Churches and this is enough to excuse the qualitie and condition of our Church in former times and to refell the vaine bragges of our aduersaries touching the externall succession of the Church of Rome For if this proposition be true which it must be vntill the Repliar can refell it The Church militant here on earth may be so oppressed with persecution and infected with heresie that at sometimes there can no particular congregation thereof be seene in all the world either publikely or priuately professing the true faith entirely without heresie and exercizing the preaching of the Gospell and administration of the Sacraments and discipline without corruption hence it will follow that the Protestants graunting this of their Churches disaduantage not their religion and our aduersaries boasting of their multitude and glorious succession may be the Ministers of Antichrist 3 But the Iesuite saying that we conceit an inuisible company of professing Protestants is mistaken For I noted to him that we do not hold a definite number of persons distinct from the members of the Church of Rome and liuing apart in another society by themselues in secret as it were * Of whom Ioh. Paris tract de Antich p. 46. the 7. sleepers lying hid in a mountaine but we affirme this company liued in the middest of the Church of Rome it selfe and were the visible professours thereof First some that kept themselues
nisi ille ad imitandum proponitur qui despectis Angelorum legionibus secum socialiter constitutis vt solus omnibus praeesse videretur Ep. 38. Ego fidenter dico quia quisquis so vniuersalem Sacerdotem vocat vel vocare desiderat in elaâ—ione sua Antichristum praecurrit l. 6. ep 30. called a proud pompaticall prophane sacrilegious Antichristian and diuellish title and the man that should assume it a follower of the diuel and the forerunner of Antichrist b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euseb l. 5. c. 17. spoken of Montanus FASTING by distinction of meates and daies c Sectae Simonis â—uisse videtur soâ—ta quaedam Mâ—rcellina quae colebat imagines Iesu Pauli Homeri adorado incensumque ponendo August de haer Irenae l. 1. c 24. Epiph. haer 27. Theodor haer fab l. 1. Jnueni ibi velâ—m habeâ—s imaginem quasi Christs vel Sancti cuiusdam contra authoritatem Scriptiâ—rarum Epiph. ep â—d Ioh. Hicrosol Images d Cathari propter munditiem gl riantes de suis meritis Isido Orig. l. 8. c. 5. Perfection of our workes without sinne and abilitie to keepe the law e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Clem. Rom. constit pag 57. Womens baptizing f Conc. Laod. can 35 Oecum pag 697. Veron graec the worship of Angels g Cruces nec colimus nec optamus Arâ—ob the worshipping of the Crosse h Vâ—rgo erat sed non ad adorationem nobis data Epiph. pag. 344. the worshipping of the virgin Marie i Nec exhorrescunt beatae Trinitatis imaginem facere Euthym. Panopl pag. 690. the Images of the Trinitie k Haereticâ— cum ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem ipsarum conuertuntur quasi non rectè habeant nec sint ex authoritate quia vartè sunt dicta quâ—a non possit ex his inueniri veritas abhis qui nesciunt Traditionem Irenae l. 3. c 2. the obscuritie and insufficiencie of the Scripture l Auditores apud eos Manichaeos si vâ—luerint vxores habent quorum nihil faciunt qui vocantur electi August ep 74. the necessitie of single life in the Cleargie and many other points defended by our aduersaries are mentioned and named in the Fathers but it is to shew that they were holden by hereticks and to confute them This first grant I returne my aduersary for a fauour because he hath replied without railing in this Chapter and I do it in the name of all Protestants that hereafter he may not say but they are tractable and wil yeeld much of his Romish religion to be if not defended yet mentioned in the writings of the Fathers Secondly that some ceremonies and doctrines also holden at this day by the Church of Rome which we refuse were held by some particular ancient Fathers and practised in the Church of those times though * It is the rule of Vincentius Lirinensis â—hat what the Fathers thus hold is not the Catholicke faith but what they hold resolutely and with generall consent Monitor c. 39. doubtfully vncertainly and without vniuersalitie and vniformitie and which is chiefly to be obserued by him that wil see the truth otherwise and to other intents then the Church of Rome now holds theÌ„ the reason whereof is manifest For the Apostle m 2. Thess 2.7 sayes the mysterie of iniquitie began to work in his time And n Niceph. l. 4. c 7. Euseb hist l 3 c. 32. Hegesippus that liued immediatly after the Apostles The Church continued a virgin vndefiled as long as the Apostles liued but when that generation was passed the conspiracy of wicked heresie through the seducement of those which taught otherwise tooke beginning And o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Isid Pelus l. 3 ep 408. pag 668. Isidorus Pelusiota that liued in the fourth age The Church is like a woman fallen from her ancient state and hauing nothing but the signes of it bereaued of her goods through their naughtinesse that held the administration Thus some particular ceremonies and doctrines began to be vsed and got increase with vsing as Prayer for the dead Purgatorie Necessitie of Baptisme for the saluation of infants and not many more doctrines agreeing with the Church of Rome which yet were vsed and holden as I said vncertainly and to other purposes then now they are for it cannot be shewed that they were the resolued doctrine of the Church vniuersally embraced The most that our aduersaries can shew in the writings of antiquitie being some part of their ceremonies as Tapers Crosses Vigils Oile Spittle Commemorations of the dead and such like wherein also they haue altered or forsaken many things as well as we as they haue with vs abandoned some points of their doctrine also which yet p It is coÌ„fessed that all the Fathers held the B. Virgin to haue bin conceiued in originall sinne by Turrecrem de consecr d. 4. Firmissime nu 11. Dom. Ban. part 1 q 1 art 8. dub 5. And most of the Fathers that the soules of the iust see not God till the day of iudgement Sixt Senens bibl l. 6 an 345. Barthol Medin in 12. pag 56. and others whom see below c. 57. n. 3. In which two points the now Church of Rome hath forsaken them by their owne confession they held as well as they did that which the Church of Rome still retaines which proues vnanswerably that it is no disaduantage to our side if some few particular doctrines thus vnsufficiently held be found in the Fathers which we refuse Thirdly we grant that we hold many negatiues against our aduersaries in the Church of Rome which are not expresly controlled or condemned by the Fathers in that maner that we condemne them that is to say directly purposely and namely but onely by discourse and consequence from those truths which they maintaine and those errors which they condemne in the heretiks of their times The reason is because in the Fathers daies such errors now denied and refused by vs were not broached but came vp since and the Fathers could not denie or speake against that which was not then in rerum natura This is the true reason why we denie sundrie things that the Fathers in their time denied not 2 These three things being granted that which we obiect against the Repliers Catalogue is that the ancient Fathers in their writings neither defend nor acknowledge the substantiall articles of Papistry wherein we really differ There is q You mâ—y see it in the Pref. before B. Iewels workes of the last impression And in the Pref. of THE WAY n. 15. And in the Councel of Trent at the end a new Creed made by the Councell of Trent and imposed vpon all men to beleeue the articles whereof are particularly expounded in the decrees and catechisme of the said Councel and in the writings of the moderne Schoole-men and Iesuites LET THEM SHEW IF THEY CAN THAT THE DOCTRINE CONTAINED IN THAT CREED
may define contrary to that they all writ as the B. Virgin not to be conceiued in sin and so they shall beleeue iust that they beleeued not and the direct contrary CHAP. LVII 1 Touching the first coming in of errors into the Church with the persons Time and Place 2 Purgatory and pardons not knowne in the ancient Church nor in the Greeke Church to this day 3 The true reason why the ancient praied for the dead Pag. 287. A. D. To conclude it is not enough for M. White to name these eight or any other points of our doctrine and to say that we hold or practise contrary to the doctrine of the ancient Church but I must require him to set downe the time place persons and other circumstances of this supposed innouation which circumstances are commonly noted in Histories when any such innouation against the vniuersall doctrine of the Church did arise This my demand 1 White Digr 5. pag. 374. M. White who will it seemeth sticke at nothing taketh vpon him to satisfie by naming seauen points of our religion offering to shew the time when and manner how they got into the Church And thereupon first he nameth pardons and purgatory the vse whereof he sayeth came lately into the Church To this I answer first that he nameth not the particular Time Place not Persons that first brought in the vse of pardons and purgatory and so he saieth nothing to the purpose Secondly I answer that our questions is not so much about the vse of pardons and purgatory as whether the doctrine which holdeth purgatory to be and pardons duely vsed to be lawfull came in of late contrary to the former doctrine of the Church Now M. White will neuer be able to shew that that Church did at any time vniuersally beleeue that 2 Concerning praier for the dead which supposeth the beleefe of Purgatory learned Protestants grant it to haue bene general in the Church long before S. Austins time as may be seene in the Protest Apol. tract 1. sect 2. nu 4. purgatory was not or that pardons duely vsed were vnlawfull or that the doctrine concerning the substance of these points was first brought in of late naming the first time place or persons which brought it in contrary to the former faith and shewing who resisted it as an heresie and who continued to resist it 1 HAuing no power to answer the examples I gaue of the Church of Romes now holding contrary to the ancient Church he concludes that it is not enough to name the points or to say they hold contrary to the doctrine of the ancient Church vnlesse I set downe the Time Places Persons and other circumstances of the innouations as Histories vse to note them when any such innouations arises and therefore he must require me to set them downe I answer it is sufficient that I haue shewed the points not to haue bene holden by the ancient Church For if the ancient Church held them not what skills it when or by whom they were brought in when they were brought in since the times of the ancient Church for that which was not at the first is not Catholike but by some at some time was brought in contrary to that which is Catholicke And a THE WAY §. 50. n. 5 6. I haue shewed that there be many confessed changes wherein these circumstances cannot bee shewed Neuerthelesse for example b THE WAY Digr 51. I named him seauen points and the circumstances of Time Place and Persons of their getting in whereof the vse of PARDONS was the first He replies that I haue not named the particular time place nor persons that brought them in and therefore say nothing to the purpose Here let the Reader iudge whether hauing shewed out of the confession of his owne writers that they are not from the Apostles times not expressed in the Scripture or Fathers nor brought to our knowledge by their authority but lately come into the Church this be not enough for what is not from the Apostles times came in since there is the Time when What came in lately was not vsed in the Primitiue Church There is the Time againe what is not mentioned by the Scripture Fathers and ancient Church was deuised by innouators there is the Persons What the Scriptures and Pastors of the Church reueals not that growes vp as cockle and weed in the Church there is the place Let me adde to the rest whom I alledged in the Digression the words of B. Fisher c Art 28 p. 86. b. Pardons therefore began AFTER men had a while trembled at the torments of Purgatory I haue therefore brought euidence sufficient to proue pardons to be an innouation because it proues they were not vsed in the ancient Church nor reuealed by the Apostles 2 He replies that the question is not so much about the VSE of pardons and purgatory as whether the DOCTRINE that holds them came in of late CONTRARY to the doctrine of the Church And I answer againe affirmatiuely that it did For the vse is founded on the doctrine and the doctrine cannot be without vse There was no vse ergo there was no doctrine But M. White will neuer be able to shew that the Church beleeued there was no Purgatory or that pardons were not lawfull This is follie for how should M. White shew the Church condemned that which was not yet in rerum natura no man being able to speake of that which is not in being If pardons therefore were not M. White must be pardoned if he cannot shew how the Church condemned them And touching Purgatory though it be much ancienter yet neither did the Catholicke Church beleeue it There were some in the Church that conceited such a thing and the Fathers began in Saint Austines time but a Non redarguo quia forsitan verum est c. Aug ciuit l. 21. c. 26. see Enchirid. c. 69. and the Apol of the Gre. p. 132. waueringly and without any resolute certainety to mention it but it was not beleeued in their daies as a matter of faith that he which denied it should be an hereticke as it is now beleeued in the Church of Rome Besides the East Church beleeued it not to this day therefore the vniuersall Church beleeued it not Heare their owne words in an Apology written touching this matter b Apol. Graec. p. 119. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We haue not receaued from our Doctors that there is any such Purgatory or temporary punishment by fire and we know the East Church neuer thought so Heare also what the B. of Rochester c Art 18. p. 86. b. saies No true beleeuer NOW doubts of Purgatory whereof notwithstanding among the ancient there is very litle or no mention at all The Greekes also to this day do not beleeue there is a Purgatory Let whose will reade the commentaries of the ancient Greekes and so farre as I see he shall finde very rare
subiects are generally of the Smiths mind to wish these sonnes of Beliall that fly-blow Religion and blast the lawes and honour and the estimation of Princes with their breath placing their greatest pietie in the greatest mischiefes they can bring to their Prince and countrey may feele the mettall harder that by law is tempred for such as are of their spirits and know not how to vse your Highnesse clemency I speake not of simple Recusants but fugitiue Iesuites and Seminaries that haue renounced their allegiance to their naturall Soueraigne and made themselues the Popes creatures and vowed him blind obedience in all that he shall command them For many Papists Maffae vit Ignat. when their seducers are remoued shall come home to obedience and repenting them of their Idolatrie and superstition imbrace your Highnesse gouernment and the Religion stablished but when vnnaturall fugitiues and such as they haue Iesuited haue attempted to consume vs and by blasphemous writings vnnaturall reports traiterous libells barbarous conspiracies from time to time these fiftie yeares together haue vndermined our state and by the wofull ruine of some haue shewed what they intend to all Kings and Princes that entertaine not their vassallage Sylu. Girald Topograph Hib. M. Wrightinton and M. Brettergs horse oxen and kine killed in their pastures a little before the late Queens death and now lately the messengers horses poisoned at Wigan in Lancashire it is not to be hoped that their faire protestations can giue vs assurance as we had experience lately in him that writ the QVODLIBETS but as it is noted of the Irish long ago A securibus nulla securitas si securum te reputes securim senties est longè fortius timenda eorum ars quam Mars eorum pax quam fax eorum mel quam fel malitia quam militia proditio quam expeditio amicitia praefucata quam inimicitia despicata Their poisoning of so many your Highnesse subiects with heresies and reuiling Gods blessed truth their preying vpon the states and persons of their followers and filling them with hatred and reprochfulnesse against their brethren till it come to the killing of our very cattell and dumbe beasts is the least of their doings the state and gouernment hath bene odiously defamed the lawes reuiled the Iudges railed on and threatned the Nobles disgraced and in fauour of the formallest Miscreants and to bolster out the damnablest treason that euer was the PVBLICKE ACTS AND RECORDS of the kingdome entred in the view of God and men and Angels are discredited and denied Yet these are the persons beginning where the Diuell did when he seduced Adam that become our ghostly Fathers and are canonized for Martirs Sine Scriptura Theologi sine miraculis Apostoli sine veritate Catholici sine pace sacrifici sine patientia Martyres sine vera fide religiosi Their zeale for the Catholicke faith and saluation of soules is pretended but their drift is to captiuate all to the Popes Monarchy and their owne ambition Plutarch Zonar When Caesar was desirous to leade Cleopatra in triumph that she should not mistrust or preuent him he sent her word that he was in loue with her Philostrat Philip of Macedon leading an armie against Byzantium said that hearing of the beautie of the citie he was going a wooing and would make loue to her But the Orator told him againe it was not the manner in his countrie to go a wooing with swords but with musicke and they that were in loue brought not instruments of warre but of melodie It were to be wished that as Philip by this conceite was intreated to spare the citie so your Highnesse clemency might haue perswaded these men to let the Popes plenitudo tempestatis alone spare their countrie but when their practises are made the profession of their Catholicke faith and their loathsomest treasons the cause of the Catholicke Church and the punishments inflicted for the same accounted martyrdome when they haue made their priuate quarrels the publicke faith of their Church what hope is there but they will perseuere When Ephesus was distressed with a dangerous battery Polyaen in a time of siege the Gouernor with ropes tied the walls and gates to Dianaes Temple that so being consecrate to the goddesse the enemie should assault them at his perill This is now become the Iesuites policy first to tie euery thing to the Temple making their innouations and conspiracies the Churches cause and then cry them downe for heretickes that finde any fault that so neither Church nor state nor magistrate nor subiect nor lawes nor Religion nor Court nor country can be free from their intermedling Cedren There was a time when the Eunuchs were so potent and busie in the Greeke Empire ouerruling and disturbing all things that it became the saying of a great man if you haue an Eunuch in your hand dispatch him but if you haue none buie one and dispatch him The Iesuite and the Masse Priest hath plied his statizing in such fashion that his name may well bee put in the roome of the Eunuch and before your Highnesse lawes against them be put in execution that their haunts and harbours may be stopt and the places of their entertaintment scoured and the femall hierarchy where they breed be put downe their plots will neuer haue end nor is it possible your Highnesse state or person shold haue security Our words against them are many and some mislike our earnestnesse But the Kings danger made Croesus dumbe sonne speake Herodot and we had rather sustaine the enuie of our words then another day feele the issue of their deeds Silu. Girald When the King of Meth asked aduice of one Turghesie how certaine noisome birds lately come into Ireland that did much harme in the countrey might be destroyed he answered Nidos eorum vbique destruendos the next way was to destroy their nests where they bred They are none of Saint Colmans birds that there should be any such danger in chasing them but what manner of birds they are your Highnesse may perceiue by a story in Maximus Tyrius One Psapho Max. Tyr. serm dwelling in the parts of Lybia desirous to be canonized a God tooke a sort of prating birds and secretly taught them to sing PSAPHO IS A GREAT GOD and hauing their lesson perfitly he let them flie into the woods and hills adioyning where continuing their song other birds also by imitation learned the same till the hedges rang with nothing but Psaphoes dittie GREAT IS THE GOD PSAPHO The countrey people hearing the birds but ignorant of the fraud thought Psapho to be a God indeed and began to worship him This same is the Popes practise desirous to effect his ambition and shew himselfe to be a God he maintaines a sort of discontented fugitiues in his Seminaries as it were in so many cages where dieting them for the nonce he easily teaches them what tune he pleases and hauing
this worke and by your hand to dedicate it your most Christian MONITORY to the Emperor and Princes performed with admirable learning and inuincible spirit hath made the entrance and as it hath purchased your Highnes that reputation in Gods Church and honour with strangers and authority with aduersaries and admiration with all which few Princes since Constantine haue had before so shall it in time and by degrees Apoc. 18. awaken the Kings of the earth and declare it selfe to be the loud cry and mightie voice of the Angell which God hath sent to raise them vp and to call his people out of Babylon And although the Iesuites their complices by their busie writing would seeme to oppose it yet it so sticks in their crowne that from the Cardinall to the Friar they giue themselues no satisfaction in answering but still as one of them sallies foorth another followes him as if they meant openly in the field to bewray their weakenesse and crie for helpe and though they fight desperately yet is it as the Goth mentioned in Procopius with his enemies weapons stricken and sticking in the top of his pate whereof he died as soone as he returned out of the field And albeit their words be vile and all honest eares abhor so sacred Maiestie to be violated thereby yet the loue of your subiects and the seruice of Gods whole Church toward you for the same shall weigh them downe And God who hath called your Highnesse with Dauid and Constantinē to be reproached and threatned by such as Shemei Doeg Zosimus and Ennapius were will giue you the same honour in all generations to come that they haue had and when the Iesuites haue that opinion that their Lord the Pope is God vpon earth so far aboue Emperors and Kings no maruell if their burthen giue them courage and make them lustie Alchor For the Asse that bare Mahomet in his Nurses lap feeling the pretiousnesse of his loade prickt vp his eares and out went all the company and when some askt if this was the beast that yesterdaie was not able to stand on her legs but was faine to be lifted vp that now went so lustily she answered O that ye knew who I carrie on my backe It was the conceite she had of her burthen that gaue her this courage and lift vp her eares But leauing thē to their presumption who as Isidodorus Pelusiota speaketh beare themselues on their Priesthood as if they had a tyrannie when they haue wearied themselues with resisting the truth offered them are swallowed vp of their owne pride and turbulency your Highnesse throne shall be established and the soule of your enemies shal be cast out as out of the middest of a sling and all their followers of what sort soeuer which so vnthankefully haue bene content to reape the fruite of your peaceable gouernement and gracious fauour and bounty and clemency towards them but will not ioyne in the worshippe of God nor follow your Highnesse in the exercise of the word and Sacraments shall see their turpitude The rest by their praiers to God for your Highnesse safety and sacrifice of their best affection thereunto will make it appeare that your care of their peace and zeale for the truth hath not bene in vaine And let not your Highnesse doubt the good successe of your cause When Luther first began to stirre against the Popes pardons his friends cried he would neuer be able to preuaile Chemnit and bad him go to his Cell and pray Lord haue mercy on him for there was no dealing against the Pope But his fatall houre being come God shewed the contrary and throwing down the Tables of those money-changers made it soone appeare that there is no counsell or power against the Lord. Nazianzen saies that the Emperour Iouian taking the cause of Religion into his hand and labouring to haue the world consent therein which is your Highnesse most noble and proper indeauour thereby both strengthened religion and brought strength from religion to himselfe Your Maiestie in our late Soueraigne Queene Elizabeth hath obserued that no power of the enemie can hurt Gods annointed that honor him and such as haue heard your Princely speeches many times touching this matter can tell you haue fixed your confidence in him that will preserue his seruants when a thousand shall fall at their side and ten thousand at their right hand Psal 91. Your Highnesse is more then an ordinary man God hath set his owne image as it were vpon his gold in an eminent manner vpon you which he hath not done vpon other men your cause is Gods cause your zeale and constancy is for Gods truth they are Gods inheritance and peculiar people you defend it is your right you stand for and a blessed gouernement you maintaine Your enemies are Gods enemies and vphold themselues with the basest dishonesty foulest meanes and detestablest practises that euer were And therefore as God hath suffered you for the manifesting of his glory to be the obiect of their fury so he will make you the president of his mercy to al posteritie His promise made to Iosuah shall neuer faile you Iosh 1.5 Psal 46. I will not leaue thee nor forsake thee We wil not feare though the earth be mooued the mountaines fal into the middest of the sea Though the waters thereof rage and the mountaines shake at the surges of the same Yet is there a riuer whose streames shall make glad the City of God euen the Sanctuary of the Tabernacles of the most high God is in the middest of it and it shall not be mooued Our God shall relieue it early when the nations raged and the kingdomes were moued God gaue his voice and the earth melted the Lord of hoasts is with vs and the God of Iacob is our refuge Our enemies like Arians are ceased to be Christians Lucifer Caralitanus saies Cum sitis Ariani inhumani impij crudeles homicidae non amplius eritis Christiani And your people that obey and serue you Isid Pelusiot being a company holden together by true faith and the best policy are part of the Church of God for which Christ gaue himselfe to die Your Highnesse most happie gouernement is the fountaine of our weldoing when Princes maintaine religion and execute iustice punishing wicked men and rewarding the godly Psal 72. then they come downe like raine vpon the mowen grasse and as showers that water the earth One part of the King of Persia his Title in ancient time was that he did Rise with the Sun and giue eies to the blind night Theophy◠Simocat Lips pol. And the King of Mexicoes Crowne oath had wont to be I will minister iustice to all the Sunne I will make to shine and clouds to raine and the earth to be fruitfull the riuers will I store with fish and all things with plenty For godly Princes procure all these things from God to their people
worship of images and the distinctions whereby the same is maintained are examined And our aduersaries finally conuicted of giuing Gods honor to their images The ancient Church was against image worship Chap. 54. The Popes supremacy was not in the ancient Church neither is it acknowledged at this day by many Papists Nunne Brigets speech touching the Pope And Cyrils riddle Chap. 55. The Communion in ancient time was ministred to the people in both kinds An innouation in this point in the Church of Rome The pretences vsed against the Cup. Chap. 56. Touching Transubstantiation It was made an article of faith by the Lateran Councell 1200 yeares after Christ How it came in by degrees The Fathers neuer beleeued nor knew it Chap. 57. Touching the first coming in of errors into the Church with the Persons Time and Place Purgatory and pardons not knowne in the ancient Church nor in the Greeke Church to this day The true reason why the ancient prayed for the dead Chap. 58. The Popes supremacy Single life of Votaries The worship of images The merite of workes The sacrifice of the Masse And the Popish doctrine touching originall sinne all of them innouations The disagreement of Papists in their religion And namely in their doctrine of originall sinne Chap. 59. Obiections against the outward succession of the Pope Touching Peters being at Rome His Pastorall office what it was Whether there be any diuine authoritie for the Popes succession Not certaine what Popes haue succeeded one another Vacancies diuers times in the Sea of Rome The storie of the woman Pope of what credite The Pope hath bene an heriticke and erred è Cathedra The Pope succeeds by Simonie and violence Such succession is a nullitie by his owne law The Pharisees in Moses chaire how A. D. defends the succession of an ASSE Many Popes at once Vrbanus his crueltie towards the Cardinals What the Protestants say touching the succession of the Church of Rome Good Reader in the printing of this Booke some faults are committed some whereof are not great but the rest noted with this marke * concerne the sence or reading more materially The marginall quotations some excepted I could not correct but hope they are reasonable perfect Correct them as followeth The first number signifieth the page the second the line Page 3. line 26. shreene skreene 8. 12 it is good it is a good 11 25. downe downe 14. 11. vse vseth 16.14 Lonel Louel 20 11.* her mot er our mother * and it was when it was 24 19. Cuyckins Cuyckius 34 5 * the king Now may the king how may 15. * possible impossible 36.5 not so much not much 38 11.* seauenth second 45. 26. Anard Ruard 60. 2 * of minde of winde 71. 3 ingeniously ingenuously 80. 27 * serueth seemeth 81 16. * against him his against his 86. 26. compiled fraud fraud compiled 94. 35. * see see 103. 13. Sato Soto 105. 15 * vncerten And vncerten and 106. 11. please pleaseth 109. 1. * to heauen to haue 112.28 the like the life 113 5 * in cause in state 116 1 * charging Chargeth 138. 9 * one promise on praemis 145. 20. none now 14â— 10. * Casenists Casuists 148. 10. this a poore this poore 14 and them put it forth 34. to beleeue not to beleeue 156. 27. contriued contained 157.30 yeed yeeld 174 4 * in themselues in the Scripture 180. 35. * visible inuisible 181 14.* inuisible members inuisible the members 188. â—6 answer for answer For. 192. 23. that which the which 194. 11 Henriquex Henriquez 199. 33. * Eusebius Justine Martyr 200. 20. daughter sonne 213 9 * this of God this will of God 12. as they call such as they call 226. 21. or* his purp for his purp 228. 5. none noe 229. 18. * no mans one mans 230 2. by othes by others 12 * the works euâ—â— the sinne euen of corrupt masse was not but was 238. 29. * deliberate not deliberate 245. 34. * the cause since the conscience 259. 29. * He replies sec he replies Secondly 264. 23. saies it ouer saith it ouer and ouer 265. 25. or translation of translation 275. 28. * motion notion 286. 31. lastly put it out and set the figure 7 that followes there 287. 16. conceiued conteined 21. dives diuerse 299. 1. * what heresies what he replies 304. 35. * in the fourth proposition in fower propositions 311. 3 is is it is it 315. 9. * first and last hiest and last 318. 12. RIGHR RIGHT 319. 26. may do can do 335. 16 knownes not knowes not 341. 20. we might impart we impart 367. 32. * vniuersall vniuocall 368. 7 manner matter 373. 21. held in the substance nor held the substance 381. 37. euer by euen by 403. 18. them them that them that 414. 30 * yet many yet the maine 437.9 Nanâ—us Nonnus 448. 26. Councell Councels 460. 15. had bene haue bene 471. 24. * as the profite all the profite 485. 18. * Then I haue Thus J haue 450. 8. And expounds how and he expounds how 505. 6. not with not onely with 504. 23. * to any other to â—â—â—ther 511. 31. * be reuolued be renewed 513. 33. * shewed them thawed them 527. 17. that contrary the contrary 529. 4. * Againe whether Againe whereas 532 1.* that it is sinne some that it is sinne 11. That it some that it 13. That it some that it 544 4 * alleadged alleadging 29. VNLERA VNLEAR In the Margent I obserued by the way Pag. â—7 letter c c. 52. Ch. 53. 23. r orthodonograph orthodoxagraph 24. * see c. 53. see Ch. 52. 38. r Sano Saxon. 67. c. Chap. 35. 1 Ch. 34. 1. 35. â— 77. â— * Ch. 54. Ch. 53. 95. d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 108. u put forth the whole quotation ** 113. d Abulens parad l. 34. Abul parad l. c. 34. 121. * came to come to * 133. line 15. action occasion * 148. * cap. 35. and 36. chap. 34. and 35. * 158 * cap. 28.3 chap. 27. 3. * 194. * see vers see Gerson 261. e Philocrat Philostrat 280. i noted afore noted afore pag. 62 in the marg 528. â— Abul in Sent. Abul in Deuteron THE WAY TO THE TRVE CHVRCH defended against A.D. his Reply CHAP. 1. 1. The title of A.D. his reply A wonder not farre from Rome 2. Writers not putting their names to their bookes censured by the Iesuites The Popes iester 3. The name of Minister and Priest 4. Church the pillar of truth 5. The way of Catholick discipline is the way of the Scripture 6. The Iesuits Method in perswading to Papistrie 7. The maner of A.D. his replying and his promise to raile THis A.D. hauing taken my booke into his correction intitles what he hath written against it A REPLY made vnto M. Anthonie Wootton and M. Iohn White MINISTERS wherein it is shewed that they haue not sufficiently answered the TREATISE OF FAITH and wherein also the truth of the chiefe points of the said TREATISE is
namely in that he saith the Iesuites be the Popes Ianizaries c that they haue pestered the land and filled the hands and pockets of all sorts of people with their writings c. that they are admirably presumptuous in disgracing the persons of Protestants and in belying their doctrine and incoyning and defending opinions neuer heard of afore 1 THe Iesuite it should seeme was the sonne of some passionate woman that can neither giue ouer afore he be tedious nor go forward quietly but in stead of giuing his reader a taste of my insinceritie will giue him a taste of his owne immodestie and intemperance I said the Iesuites were the Popes Ianizaries that guard his person brought in to support the maine battell when the Papacie was at a dead lift whose writings farced with lies and noueltie fill the land and as followeth but marke his answer The discreete reader if he be acquainted with the Iesuites will easily discerne how false this is and so leaues it to his discretion to think as he shall see cause This is a simple reply when after a boisterous fit of railing if the reader fauour him not with his discretion and old acquaintance he hath nothing to say and to beg credit against that we see with our eyes and palpably feele vnder our fingers For a Maff. vbi infra this order was first confirmed by the Pope in Octob 1540. the reason that moued him thereto was that the Papacie being at a dead lift they might helpe to support The words of Maffaeus a Iesuite himselfe are b Lib. 2 c. 12. vit Ignat. Loiol that when Ignatius by the meanes of Cardinall Contarenus offered the Pope the forme of their Order wherein among other things it was contained that to the other three solemne vowes which are common to other Orders they would adde a fourth special vow that whithersoeuer it should please the Pope to send them about the affaires of religion into the countries of Christians or infidels thither without grudging stay or reward they would readily go as soone as he had viewed it he said This is the Spirit of God and he hoped God himselfe had stirred vp the courage of this band AT SVCH A TIME to be no small helpe to THE AFFLICTED STATE of the Church Ribadineira another Iesuite c Vit Ignat. l. 2. c. 18. sayes God by a singular kinde of prouidence sent Ignatius to helpe his Church NOW WHEN IT WAS READY TO FALL that he might set both himselfe and his sonnes the Iesuites to be a wall for the house of God Let vs set before our eyes the end why the societie of the Iesuites was instituted which verily was the same which the present time of the Catholicke Church required The societie therefore of Iesus was chiefly erected for the defence and propagation of the faith as is contained in the apostolicke letters of their confirmation Since the birth of Ignatius THE LIGHT OF OVR RELIGION WAS IN GREAT PART OBSCVRED and therefore it was by the incredible prouidence of God that this new Societie should be ordained principally for the defence of faith This plainly shewes how and to what purpose that Order was erected since which time it is easie to see that d See Byzar rer Persic lib. 9. pag. 213. P. Iou. hist l. 14. sub sin what the Turkes Ianizaries are to him the same haue these bene to the Pope being also drawne by trickes and deuices out of euery countrey to furnish the Papacie and execute the Popes ambition and lust vnder the pretence of Religion no otherwise nor honestlier then the Turke e Jn queis ob confirmatam bellicae laudis opinionem in omni Turcarum expeditione summa virium vincendi certissima ratio semper fuit Iou. l. 13. p. 138. See Byzar vbi sup takes the children of Christians and by education makes them his best souldiers and vse them to fight against their owne parents and countrey by which deuice the Pope supplied the want of learning and discipline that began to faile in his Church which otherwise by this had bene at a low ebbe They say God raised them vp we that Satan They crie out that Luther was raised out of hell by the Diuell who yet was the seruant of Christ and worthy of eternall honour they must giue vs leaue to say the same of Ignatius and his companions which of vs say true must be tried by the doctrine that Luther and the Iesuites teach and Christ Iesus the Iudge of all controuersies one day will determine 2 If I complained to them that should mend it of their filling all things with their presumptuous and hereticall writings vntill it comes to fannes and feathers that also is truth for to omit our owne knowledge and the Legends of collapsed Ladies they obiect it one against another how f Quod lib. p. 39 the women dote and runne riot after them and g Pag. 65. to huffe and ruffe it out a councell of women must be called to cocke a hoope and that h Pag. 39. a Iesuite is a pearle for a Lady And touching their innouating all things their belying our doctrine their coyning of new opinions their turning Popery into Iesuitisme their reducing all things into their owne course and Machauillian managing of the Papacie I referre the reader to the declarations made against them by their owne fellowes the Seminaries if he list not himselfe to see these things euery day in the yeare with his owne eyes CHAP. IIII. 1. Some examples of the Iesuites rapine 2. Touching the present Pope Paul 5 and his nephew Burghesi The Iesuites deuouring those that entertaine them A.D. He passeth from the Iesuites to the Seminarie priests Pag. 24. of whom in his railing humour he saith that since the Harpies were chased away and Bel was ouerthrowne neuer was there such a greedie and rauenous Idoll as the Seminary with his backe and belly sinking and drowning all that entertaine him But truly he might better haue applied this calumnious comparison of Priests with the Harpies and the Idoll Bel to most of the married ministerie and to those their hungrie and proud brats that loue little to fast and desire much to go fine as also that other grosse similitude of Moloch the Idoll of the Ammonites with the seuen aumbries readie to receiue Meale Pigeons a Sheepe a Ramme a Calfe an Oxe c. which he applieth to the same Seminaries suiteth much better with the said married Ministers then with the Seminaries For the Seminaries as they liue single haue no need of so many aumbries but can be contented with such poore pittances from hand to mouth as the charitie of good people will affoord them whereas married Ministers especially if they haue many children had neede to haue many aumbries filled with all such stuffe as was in the said aumbries of that Idoll to wit Meale Pigeons c sauing onely that they loue not to haue
others and deuide their kingdomes and diuers other things q Nu. 14. p. 26. If the Pope say that such a gouernment tends to the detriment of spirituall health or that such a law cannot be obserued without mortall sinne or that it is contrary to the law of God or that it maintaines sinne then we must stand to the Popes iudgement forsomuch as the King hath nothing to do to iudge of spirituall things Simancha Pacensis r De Cath. inst tit 23. n. 11. p. 98. If Kings or other Christian Princes become heretickes forthwith their subiects and vassals are freed from their gouernment Å¿ Tit. 45. nu 25. pag. 209. If any Prince be vnprofitable or make vniust lawes against religion or against good manners or do any such like thing to the detriment of spirituall things the Pope obseruing due circumstances may apply a fit remedie euen by depriuing such a King of his gouernment and iurisdiction if the cause require it D. Nicolas Sanders t Visib monar pag. 70. It is moreouer to be supplied that albeit the King when he was first made were a Christian Catholicke yet if afterward he become an Apostata or hereticke true reason requires that he be remoued from his gouernment u Pag. 71. The matter is now brought to this passe that it is fit an hereticall King be remoued from his kingdome w De clau Dau pag. 25. If any be so rauenous that of a lambe he become a wolfe deuouring the flocke stealing slaying and scattering the sheepe which the Pope will say euery Protestant Prince doth if any thing betide this man otherwise then well let him thanke himselfe that voluntarily runnes vpon the sword of the Church Gregorie of Valence x Tom. 3. pag. 444 c. If the crime of heresie or apostacie from the faith be notorious that it cannot be couered then euen before the sentence of the Iudge the aforesaid punishment of being depriued from his dominion and authoritie ouer his subiects is in part incurred that is to say so farre that the subiects may lawfully denie obedience to such a hereticall Lord. Mariana a Iesuite y Instit reg pag. 61. It is a wholesome meditation for Princes to perswade themselues that if they oppresse the common-wealth and grow intollerable through their vices they liue vpon those termes that they may be killed not onely lawfully but with glorie and commendations z Pag. 64. All this pestilent and deadly broode thus he speakes of such Kings as he calls tyrants which are all Protestant Princes it is a glorious thing to roote out of the societie of men it is therefore confessed that a tyrant may be slaine either by open force and armes or by making assault vpon his pallace and if they that haue killed him escape they are honored all their life after as great personages but if it fall out otherwise they die a sacrifice gratefull to God and men a Pag. 65. No difference whether ye kill him with sword or poison When Tyrone rebelled in Ireland in the yeare 1602 the schoole Doctors of Salamanca sent the Papists there this determination b Refert quaest bipart in M.G. Blackw p. 156. That the Bishop of Rome might by armes restraine such as opposed the Catholike religion Tyrones warre against the Queene was iust and by authoritie from the Pope and all Catholickes were bound to further him in the same and so doing their merit and hope of eternall reward should be no lesse then if they had warred against the Turke But all Catholickes had sinned mortally that had serued the English against Tyrone neither should they obtaine saluation or be absolued by any priest from their sinnes vnlesse they repented and forsooke the campe of the English The same thing was also to be deemed of such as in that warre had holpen the English with armes and munition or payed them the accustomed subsidies But such as were in Tyrones campe in no case were traitors nor had denied any due obedience or vniustly occupied the Queenes lands but rather had endeuoured themselues to set at libertie themselues and their countrey being oppressed with vniust and impious tyrannie and to their power defended the orthodoxe faith as Christians and Catholickes ought to do This was the resolution of the Popes Vniuersitie in Portugall for the confirmation of as vile and detestable a rebellion as euer any was The like was done in Desmonds rebellion D. Sanders being sent into Ireland to resolue and encourage the traitors * Quem virum magno lâ—teraruÌ„ incommodo dolenius defuâ—ctum non multo post in Hibernia duÌ„ in eam insulam veram religioneÌ„ restituere contendit Ioh Marian tract pro edit vulg c. 7. sub fin pag. 56. among whom by the iust iudgement of God he died in extremitie and misery In the yeare 1588 c Meteran Belgic hist l. 15. p. 473. when the Spanish fleete should inuade our nation for the promoting of that desseigne D. Allen was made a Cardinall and sent into Flanders with the whole administration of the English affaires committed to him by the Pope who among other his practises had the Popes declaration printed in English that should be published vpon the arriuall of the Fleete in which declaration the sentence of excommunication against the Queene was confirmed and she depriued of her kingdome honour and dignities and all men commanded to receiue the Prince of Parma The writings of this Allen Parsons Sanders and Creswell their Doleman Philopater and Rossaeus a booke canonized by the Pope in consistorie are so scandalous this way that I abhor to report the things they write Bellarmine hath taken vpoÌ„ him to be the principal patron of this doctrine in maintâ—nance thereof hath published diuers treatises There was neuer any d And there was a wicked man named Sheba the son of Bicri a man of Iemini and he blew the trumpet and said We haue no part in Dauid nor inheritance in the son of Ishai euery man to his tents ô Israel 2. Sam. 20.1 Sheba blew the truÌ„pet of rebellioÌ„ as he hath done His assertions are these e De Pont. l. 5. c. 6. The Pope as chiefe spirituall Prince may change kingdomes and take them away from one to giue to another if it be necessary for the sauing of soules as we wil proue It is a good rule that the Glosse giues when the Imperiall and Pontificiall lawes touching the same thing are found to be contrary if the matter of the law be a thing belonging to the danger of soules then the Imperiall law is abrogated by the Pontificiall f Cap. 7. If the Christians in times past deposed not Nero Dioclesian and Iulian and Valens the Arrian and such like that was because they wanted temporall strength For that they might lawfully haue done it appeares by the Apostle Besides to tolerate a King that is an hereticke or an vnbeleeuer labouring to draw men
their own and I haue so truly alledged them that the quotations being many hundreds this Iesuite in all his Reply hath not so much as enterprised to answer one of them but onely that of Baius whereby the Reader may guesse whether in this my assertion I haue lied or not He sayes there be so many blacke lies as there be instances in my words and I confesse I haue often heard of the sound of a lie that it hath rung so lowd that it might be heard from Rome hither though of the colour I neuer heard before vntil the Iesuites began to paint them yet the argument I vsed to proue that I said the purging and razing and forbidding so many of their owne writers is vnanswerable N. D. in his Warnword and A.D. in his Reply and he that scribbled I know not what against M. Crash may satisfie such as are full gorged with preiudice but let the indifferent reader judge if the publishing of bookes which the authors whose names they beare neuer writ and the razing and purging of their writings be not a manifest signe that they find the doctrine of their Diuines in former times to be against them and to crosse the present opinions of their Church The which their practise the Iesuite makes a light matter but it must be better considered It is our plea against the Church of Rome that the doctrine thereof is altered and that we hold nothing but what the learned in that Church taught as well as we many a day since And this we are ready to shew in euery question out of their bookes a This is so manifest that it cannot be denied 1. First the books thus purged are extant which are of the chiefest of their Diuiâ—eâ— Caietan Folydore Masius Ferus Alphonsus Molineus Eugubinus Lud Viues Erasmus Duarenus Faber Rhenanus and innumerable others 2. The directions for the purging of all authors by putting into them and taking out of them and razing what they writ called Judices expurgatorij according whereunto they are to be newly printed are extant one set forth in Flanders another in Spaine a third in Portugall a fourth in Naples a fift at Rome all which are publickly to be seene of which sort there are many more that we haue not yet come by and dayly more are made as the Iesuites and their gouernours can espie in any booke what they mislike In these Indices you may see what is to be put out and what to be foisted in in the bookes mentioned 3. There is strait order that no bookâ— be printed before it be thus purged The Spanish Index sayes in the preface thereof that of necessitie some things must be wiped out and cut off The King of Spaine authorizing the Index of Flanders sayes in his letters pattents prefixed that for the propagation of religion he had caused all the Libraries both publicke and priuate to be purged and learned men to be imployed in the reading and reuising of bookes that they might the better and in shorter time be purged commanding all Prelates secretly without the priuitie of any to haue an Expurgatory Index by them and according thereunto to blot out in bookes the places noted 4. Pope Leo the tenth in a certaine decretall appoints and ordaines that hereafter for euer no man shall print or cause to be printed any booke or writing in the citie of Rome or in any other place vnlesse first by his Vicar or Minister of his Pallace or by some Bishop or other thereunto deputed it be diligently examined and subscribed 7. Decretal pag. 534. To what purpose this examination is intended appeares by the rule of the Trent Councell Such bookes as handle good matter and yet haue some things interlaced by the way which belong to heresie or impietie may be permitted after they are purged by the authoritie of the Jnquisition Ind. lib. prohiâ— reg 8 Againe Such as publish Manuscript bookes before they be examined and allowed shall be punished Reg 10 Let Bishops and Jnquisitors haue facultie to purge all bookes whatsoeuer according to the prescript of this Jndex They which are put in trust with correcting and purging bookes must diligently looke into all things and attentiuely note them not such things onely as manifestly offer themselues in the course of the worke but if there be any thing that lies priuily in the Annotations Summaries Margents Tables or in the Prefaces or Epistles dedicatorie of such bookes the things to be corrected and purged are these that follow hereticall assertions or such as are erronious sauouring of heresie scandalous offensiue temerarious and schismaticall such as they will expound any thing to be that hath bene written contrary to the present Iesuitisme though it were holden neuer so generally in the Church of Rome heretofore such as induce any noueltie against the rites and ceremonies of the Sacraments and against the receiued vse of the Church of Rome Prophane nouelties also deuised by heretickes But in the bookes of later Catholickes written since the yeare 1515. if that which needs correcting can be mended by taking away or adding a few things let it be done otherwise let it be altogether blotted out instruct post Ind. 5. Posseuine the Iesuite sayes that in the publicke Libraries of Princes and others speciall care is to be had that Manuscript bookes not permitted by the Church be not open to the view of euery one because they also must be purged Bibl select pag 36. and that Antoninus an Archbishop in the Church of Rome 140 yeares since now enioying the light of heauen no doubt desires that all his writings should be reuiewed and occupied purer then of old they were apparat verb Anton. Flor M. Witherington sayes It is not the Popes manner to permit either the deeds or opinions of their predecessors which helpe the papall authoritie to be impugned or called into question and therfore as well the Pope himselfe as the Ordinarieâ— of places and Inquisitors are carefull enough that no bookes come abroad which any wayes derogate from the Popes authoritie and if that they do come abroad that they be suppressed or not read by any without speciall facultie till they be purged which is the cause why it is so hard a thing in these times to find any clause in the bookes of Catholickes calling the Popes temporall power in question or to know what such authors thought touching the same power who most an end are enforced to speake their mind in the words of the censors Apol. n. 449 Hasenmullerus speaking of this practise of the Inquisitors reports many things that it were too tedious to report pag. 275. And the like doth Iunius praef Ind. exp Belg. to whom I referre thee Wherein to preuent vs daily they raze and wipe those things out and put the contrary in and so publish their bookes the most diuellish and dishonest course that euer any sect vsed to helpe themselues and burne vp the old editions that are the true
the feast of the Annunciation was not holden nor long after See Concil Mogunt l. c. 36. apud Binn tom 3. pag. 466. an ordinarie thing to father bastard writings on the ancient Doctors Sixt. Senens biblioth pag. 320. and therefore our aduersaries should not ground themselues on such writings if they were desirous of nothing but the truth not the words of Saint Austin but as it is supposed one Fulbert a superstitious French-man that liued Å¿ Hee died Ann. 1028. aboue a thousand yeares after Christ whose sermon containing this prayer is clapped into Saint Augustines workes by those that with his name would giue authoritie to their owne conceits This man t Baron an â—028 was our Ladies Chaplen and as they say was much deuoted to her seruice and writ a booke in her commendations and if the Legend lie not found the fauour to sucke her breast and therefore had reason to speake her faire and doe her seruice but yet in the meane time the Iesuite playes falsehood in fellowship in offering his words vnder the name of Austine yea seuen times ouer to aduance them with his name when Saint Austin was farre from that idolatrie and Saint Austins time but spake in another fashion u Confess l. 10. c. 42. Whom might I finde O God to reconcile me to thee should I haue gone to the Angels with what prayers with what Sacrament Many endeuouring to returne vnto thee and as I heare not able to do it of themselues haue fallen into the desire of curious visions and made themselues worthy to be deluded w cap. 43. but the true Mediator whom thy secret mercie hath made knowne to the humble is Iesus Christ the Mediator of God and men These words are farre from that which is here alledged vnder his name and possibly the Reply noting in the margent some harshnesse to be in them that needs a pious meaning alledged them against his conscience and was contented to vse any base cosenage to set some antiquitie and authoritie vpon his idolatrie but let him set his heart at rest neither the holy Virgin nor any Saint or Angell in those dayes were inuocated as now the Church of Rome vses Some priuate men began to hammer such a thing and the Fathers now and then were ventring at it for x 2. Thess 2.7 the mysterie of iniquitie began to worke in the Apostles time with guesses surmises and Rhetoricke but nothing was done certenly or taught resolutely this way Nicephorus y Hist eccl l. 15 c. 28. sub fin writes that one Peter Fuller who was a schismaticall Bishop of Antioch almost fiue hundred yeates after Christ inuented the inuocation of our Ladie that she should be named in all prayer contrary to the doctrine of the Church reported by z pag. 447. graec Epiphanius The bodie of Marie was holy * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but it was not God and she was a glorious virgin but not giuen vs to worship but her selfe worshipped him that tooke flesh of her c. Which words of Epiphanius plainly shew that the Church of Rome commits the same idolatrie with the blessed virgin by worshipping and inuocating her that those heretickes did against whom he writes and therefore he that condemneth them for it condemnes not Saint Austin but a wicked heresie that hath forged and coined many things vnder many mens names to win credit to it selfe CHAP. XV. 1. The Iesuites insolencie censured 2. Note bookes 3. A relation shewing how the Iesuites traine vp their Nouices to dispute 4. The doctrine of the Iesuites touching formall lies and equiuocation 5. The Repliers motion to Protestant Ministers answered A. D. I might now as if need be hereafter I shall go forward in this my examination of M. Whites vntruths Pag. 45. but I hope it shall not be needfull at this time to digge any deeper into this vnsauorie dunghill sith by this which is alreadie set downe I suppose the Reader hath had a sufficient taste of the mans talent in this kinde of vnsincere writing which may worthily make him suspect euery thing that he shall say against vs or rather may make him Ioath and abhorre for his sake to reade any English Protestant writers of controuersies especially when as appeares by M. Walsinghams * The title of this booke is a Search made into matters of Religion by Fr ncis Walsingham DeacoÌ„ of the Protestant Church before his change to the Catholicke Jn which is shewed among other things worthy of note the falsities of M. Caluin M. Iewel M. Io Fox M. Calfehil M. Doue M Mer. Hanmer M. Wil. Chark M. Wil. Perkins M. Morton M. Math. Sutcliffe M. Willet M. Bel M. Rogers Sir Philip Mornay and others book so many other of their owne principall writers out of whose bookes this and other pettie Ministers doe as it seemeth take their Note-bookes with which they furnish their discourses are found guiltie of many grosse vntruths very ill beseeming such as take vpon them to be Professors and especially Ministers of the simple Truth Verily my selfe haue sometime maruelled how it could come to passe that Protestant writers should so often and so grossely be taken tripping in this kind and hereupon haue sometime discoursed with my selfe what might be the cause being willing in mine owne thoughts to see if I could finde out a iust excusing cause But hauing considered the case although I was willing on the one side to imagine the best to wit that many of their errors might be excused in some sort by ouersight of wit pen or print or that some of the persons might be lesse blamed hauing in simplicitie receiued their errors from other their brethrens Note bookes or printed bookes not hauing perhaps heard how false and vnsincere these their bookes and Note-bookes are commonly sound yet on the other side I could not excuse all because I saw such store of palpable and vnexcusable errors obiected by our authors against Protestant writers which were all so insufficiently defended by themselues against our authors that I could not deeme them to haue proceeded from simplicitie or ouersight in regard I thought it not likely that men of their wit learning and reading should not see or suspect at least that these things which they writ were false and consequently formall lies proceeding from either wilfull malice or grosse negligence which made me muse with what conscience men of their qualitie could publish in print such palpable and pernicious vntruths tending to the seducing of soules and matters of religion and faith 1 IVstin Martyr a Ad Zen. Seren. pag. 389. sayes It is time for a man to hold his peace * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when his aduersarie begins to shout and I confesse this bragging and impudencie amazes me that I know not whether I should more abhorre him for it or vpbraid his followers that content themselues with such Masters For what one point of
Diuell the world and the flesh in that respect by the Papists owne confession is rightly called the Church Militant 3 Next he sayes the Church which consisteth onely of the Elect I call the Catholicke Church Which he dares not denie neither when he bethinks himselfe a little better how the Catholicke Church mentioned in the Creed c Catech. Rom. in symb § Sanctorum communionem is no other then that whereto belongs the Communion of Saints the forgiuenesse of sinnes the life euerlasting and though the reprobate and vnbeleeuers mingled among these are called also by the name d Shewed cap. 39. n 6. yet are they no true or vniuocall members thereof in as much as e Eph. 5.23 Christ is the Sauiour of his body but the Church wherein they liue as mice and vermine liue in a mans house is called Catholicke in respect of the Elect. 4. The third thing he sayes is that this Church Militant and Catholicke to keepe the Antithesis I should either haue called the Church Triumphant not as Catholickes meane Triumphant but because being visible it may triumph indeed in that no persecutors can find know or hurt them But this foolish conceite auoids not that I said but idlely and rudely flies from it for the Church which in that place I affirmed to be inuisible is not the militant but the Church of the Elect alone which considered apart by it selfe and abstracting from all other respects our aduersaries themselues confesse to be inuisible in that they hold f Possunt homines aliquibus coniectutis opinari quinam sint qui ad hunc piorum hominuÌ„ nun erum pertineant certò autem scire minime possunt Haec Ecclesiae pars est incognita Cate. Rom. p 113. no man can iudge who are elected nor see the glorified triumphing in heauen and so they lie open to the Iesuites raw conceite as much as we 5 Fourthly he giues a reason why I should rather haue called the Church Triumphant then Militant or Catholicke because being as Protestants hold inuisible it neede feare no persecution but may triumph indeed when no man can hurt or finde them And then spinning out the conceite he sayes It may also be called a Lamentant or a lamentable Church in that being inuisible members thereof can haue no fellowship one with another nor performe those offices which should be done or tell where to seeke for instruction Sacraments or Pastors nor finally haue so much as a Historiographer to write their actes c. In this respect the Protestants inuisible Church may be called a Church Lamentant or a Lamentable Church This is the Iesuites crudity and yet a well digested answer to that I said touching these matters would haue more preuailed with all that loue the truth For how and in what manner we hold the Church to be inuisible and how all this that is obiected may be answered I haue shewed at large g §. 17. ad 24. in the WAY And here I onely admonish my aduersary that he had a Lamentable cause in hand and as Lamentable a faculty to mannage it when with a flegmaticke iest he mentions that which yet in the place where he was put to it thought it his best course to say nothing to it CHAP. XXII 1. Reports made by Papists that the Protestants are without religion They hold the iustification of the Gentiles without the Gospell or knowledge of Christ 2 No saluation but in one true religion 3 The Repliers tergiuersation Page 131. A. D. The conclusion of my first Chapter to wit that faith is necessary to saluation was chiefly intended to be set downe against such as thinke it sufficient to leade a morall honest life without care of imbracing either one White p. 2. or other faith Both my aduersaries grant this my conclusion therefore I need not say much about this matter 1 The conclusion here mentioned that faith is necessary to saluation was not chiefly intended against such as thinke a morall honest life sufficient without care of imbracing faith but against the Protestants whom a Wright Art 1. Posseâ—in bibl select l 8 c. 1. ad 12. they report to haue no Faith nor God nor Religion but to be meere Atheists Hosius and Prataeolus b Prateol elench l. 1. c 77. pag. 71. write that we worship the Diuell and as Catholickes forsooth worship God 9. times aday so we inuocate and worship the Deuill 10. times aday D. Stapleton sayes c Qu. 3. quod lib. p. 621. There is no Religion at all in vs neither true nor false neither earnest nor fained and what opinions they haue raised of vs in Italy and Spaine all men know neither is it credible that he thinks the faith of Christ to be so necessary to saluation as here he sayes for many Diuines of his Church allow saluation to the Gentiles who haue no faith but only morall honesty of life d Sleid. comment an 52. p. 690. This was preached at the Councell of Trent and published by e Andrad orthod explic p. 291. a principall man of the Councell the Diuines also of Collen f Bale cent 14. c. 59. pag. 220. set foorth bookes concerning the saluation of Aristotle wherein they maintained that as Iohn Baptist was the forerunner of Christ in the things of grace so Aristotle was his forerunner in the things belonging to nature Yea g Acost de Indorum salut l. 5. c. 3. Grego de Val. â—om 3. pag. 302. a Iesuite blabs it out that certaine Schoole Doctors of this time very graue men confirme that saluation may be had without any knowledge of Christ the which is true and these Doctors h That the Gentiles which know not the gospell are iustified and saued by their morall life and beleeuing that there is a God rewarding such as come towards him without the knowledge or faith of Christ is an opinion that hath great patrons in the Church of Rome Gregory of Valenza sayes it is holden by Vega Soto and Victoria to whom CASSALIVS de quadripart inst part 1. l. 1. c. 12. adds Aquinas Lyra Abulensis Bruno Dionysius Carthus Arboreus Laudunens Durand Capreolus Paludanus Ludouicus Viues and himselfe thinkes it may be holden safely Nullum in hac parte discrimen rimendum videtur si quis sibi concessa optione sententiam hanc vel illam obnixè tucatur pag. 51. ANDRADIVS Vt quis cum Deo arctissimo charitatis iustitiaeque vinculo prioribus illis seculis constringeretur nullam aliam fidem requirebat Paulus quam credere Deum esse inquirentium se munificentissimum remuneratorem esse Hanc qui accepta à rebus creatis disciplina fuerint consecuti quid est quod à iustitiae sinibus excludantur c. pag. 290. orth expl VEGA Atque hinc persuaderi potest non solum iustificari posse homines sed saluariâ—â— sine fide Christi explicita cum haberi possit ignorantia inuincibilis
hath made his promises Our answer is we deny not our Church to be visible but thinke it to haue bene the same that in all ages communicated with the Church of Rome in the truth and substance of the ancient faith and we call it sometime inuisible onely in that sense which I haue so often declared against which that which is here propounded concludeth nothing 5 For S. Austin sayes no more in the first place but that the Catholicke Church stretches the boughs and increases abundantly ouer the whole earth which we confesse it doth two waies First in that howsoeuer the growth thereof be sometime hindered yet it cannot at all time be so oppressed but that it hath some time and many a long time liberty enough to dilate it selfe all ouer the world as winter corne that in hard weather is not seene to flourish yet hath season enough beside to grow all ouer the field Secondly in as much as it growes also and increases when it is most obscure as the Sunne retaines and exercises his light when it is most ecclipsed The Iesuites continuall error is that to be obscure and to be vtterly taken away is all one and that the suppressing of the outward liberty state and perfection supposes the extinguishing of the essence and being of the Church That which S. Austin sayes in the second place alledged I also grant answering that it may well stand with our assertion A cleare and manifest authority of the Church it appointed ouer the whole world and yet this authority may be resisted and called in question and abused and vsurped by Heretiques and persecutors and then though it be cleare and manifest in it selfe that the Church hath this authority yet the exercise thereof may be corrupted in such sort that sometime it shall need reformation Schismatickes and Heretiques are not to be beleeued but let the Repliar proue all these in whom our Church was to be such Schisme and Heresie haue their particular places and obscure and secret corners but not alwaies for in the Church of Israel when a 1. Reg. 19.14 the children of Israel forsooke the couenant of God Threw downe his altars slue his Prophets and none but Elias alone was left and when b 2. Cro. 15.3 for along season Israel was without the true God and without a teaching Priest and without the law and c 2. Cro. 28.24 when Ahaz the king of Iudah did cut in peeces the vessels and shut vp the dores of the house of God and made him altars in euery corner of Ierusalem and high places in euery seuerall city of Iudah to burne incense to other Gods It was not so Nor at such time as Ierom d Comment in Psal 33. §. Qui statis tom 8. sayed The Church is where the faith is for 20 yeares since Heretiques possessed all these Churches nor when Hilary e Pag. 316. d. writ One thing I forewarne yee of beware of Antichrist ill doth the loue of walles affect you ill do ye reuerence the Church of God in houses and buildings is there any doubt but Antichrist sits in them to me the mountaines and the woods and lakes of water and prisons and boggs are safer And if for the most part they haue doth it follow thereupon that all religion practised particular places and secret corners is Heresie what then shall become of Gods truth in such times as these are But it is absurd to say God hath possible other sheepe I know not where nor who they be that himselfe lookes to and so say I for he speakes of such as hold there may be some of the faithfull out of the Church or at the least so hidden in the Church that none can see them Neither of which is our doctrine but onely that sometimes they may be so oppressed that no man can see any congregation of them openly professing and exercising the worship of God purely and without corruption but the right faith and gouernment shall be euery where persecuted and kept vnder though many of these sheepe thus corrupted belong to the sheepfold of Christ by reason of the foundation of faith which they hold and their repentance of their errors S. Austin therefore proues not our assertion to be a shift Go we forward and let vs see the rest 6 If it were not a ridiculous shift men of our time would not haue bene moued at the hearing of it to say as one did Spectatum admissi That * Camp rat 3. one belike was one of Penelopees f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 odyss ◠wooers or of g Valer. Maxim l. 9. c. 12. Philemons kind that was choaked with laughing at his owne foolish conceite with a iest of his owne making and therefore I will quit them with a story in h Eustath in Hom. odyss p. 659. 22. Eustathius that they may laugh better The Terynthians were a nation generally flowted of their neighbours for their fleering and light countenance they could do nor see nor heare any thing but they would laugh at it Therefore they inquired of Apollo how they might be deliuered from that Passion who answered IF THEY COVLD SACRIFICE A BVLL TO NEPTVNE AND THROW HIM INTO THE SEA WITHOVT LAVGHING whereupon in a speciall consultation they agreed to go forward with the sacrifice but no boyes should be among them least they should laugh at any thing they did but it fortuned that as they were sacrifising a little Boy came in among them and seeing contrary to the custome euery mans countenance so grauely set hee also counterfaited an austeere lookes and carued a face sutable to them which affectation they perceiuing burst all out into laughter and lost their labour and so remained a laughing nation for euer after Their error was to laugh at that in the child which themselues did and with laughing to loose their Bull. It seemes my Repliar and the men that cannot refraine laughter and the man he mentions are of their posterity * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eustath Iouiall companions that will laugh at that in others that they do themselues and will exchange their sacrifice for a iest let them go to the sea againe with the Bull and trie if they can haue any better lucke then the Terinthians i Barbaricum faciem Romanam sumere vultuni miror Ennod. Pitty Roman heads should haue so graue tongues and so light countenances 7 In the last place he obiects that our doctrine touching the inuisible Church hath made diuers learned Protestants obstinately bent against Papistry desperate for when they haue seene the Prophecies of the Scripture foretelling the amplitude splendor glory and continuance of true Christian Professors neuer to haue bene fullfilled in their inuisible congregation of Protestant Professors they haue either doubted ordenied or vtterly cast off the truth of all Christian Profession the reason is their obstinacy not suffering them to consider that in the Roman Profession onely these
those things that are written in the Scriptures or to bring in any thing that is not written Of images Epiphanius e Ep. ad Ioh. Ierosol sayes It is against the authority of the Scripture that the image of a man should hang in the Church And * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the making of statues resembling the images of the dead he calls an idolatrous and a diuellish practise And speaking of worshipping the image of the blessed Virgin which now is so commonly seene painted and attired f Pingitur cincinnis exculta vestibus ornatissimis pompa adeo inani structa vt illi etiam vniones ab auribus pendeant quod nemo possit sine stomacho aspicere Paleot de imag pag. 253. in the fashion like a Lady yea g Vestientes dominam nostram Magdalenam alias sanctas ornamentis profanis vanis ac meretricijs quibus etiam pudicae matronae sese vestire vererentur Nauar manual c. 11. n. 23. like a Curtisan and keeps such a court at Lauretto in the same place where h Leand. Albert descript Ital. in Picen pag. 428. sometime Iuno kept hers he addes that thereby men are drawne a whoring from God the body of Mary being holy but not God and shee an honorable Virgin but not giuen to be adored but her selfe adoring him that shee bare in her wombe Of the Supremacy which now the Pope vses ouer all other Bishops Gregorie who in his third argument the Repliar sayeth professed his religion i Lib 6. ep 30. sayes he will confidently auouch him to be the forerunner of Antichrist whosoeuer he be that desires to be called vniuersall Bishop proudly preferring himselfe before others Of images of the Trinity Gregory the second k 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Epist ad Leo. Isaur Imp. sayes they may not be made Of Purgatory it is cleare that the Greeke Church neuer beleeued it So saith Nilus l 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nil de purgat p. 118. l. 1. Our Fathers neuer taught vs Purgatory neither did the Easterne Church euer beleeue it Roffensis m Artic. 18. No man now doubts of Purgatory and yet among the ancient there is little or no mention made of it yea the Greekes to this day beleeue it not and the Latins haue not with one consent conceiued the truth of this thing For the beleefe of Purgatory was not so needfull for the Primitiue Church as now it is Of the number of Sacraments which n Trid. conc sess 7. can 1. our Aduersaries will needs haue to be seauen Cassander o Consult art 13. §. de numero sacram sayes we do not reade the other Sacraments confirmation matrimony orders penance vnction by those ancient writers to be cōprehended in any certaine number nor shall you hastily find any before Peter Lumbard that determined any certaine or definite number of them Of the peoples receiuing the cup in the Sacrament p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Clē const p 145. Venet. the constitutions of Clemens say Let the whole Laity in order with feare and reuerence receiue the cup. By which few examples the Reader may discerne how vntrue it is that Coccius hath particularly set downe point by point the ancient Fathers with vnanime consent against the Protestants who hath brought nothing out of them to that purpose which is not clearely and sufficiently answered by * Jn the most waighty controuersies he is answered by M. Perkins in his Problema our Diuines in euery controuersie 2 His second argument is the testimony of those that writ the Centuries Who being themselues famous Protestants testifie this to be so in many points This argument was obiected in q THE WAY §. 44 Digr 47. his Treatise and fully answered and therfore should not haue bene repeated againe before my answer had bene auoided Yet a little I will satisfie him First if the Magdeburgenses acknowledge the Fathers in many points to be for the Papists which they no where do yet that is not all the Fathers with vnanime consent point by point in all points Some particular Fathers the Repliar knowes well enough speake that which hath no vnanime consent of the rest and their priuate opinions may giue colour to many things and yet will not reach from point to point Next it is false that is here reported of the Centuries They testifie no more but what they thought that Fathers held corruptly and themselues iudged to be errors and blemishes in their writings There is no Romish writer at this day but he doth the same Baronius in his Annals purposely intended against the Centuries hath not left one Father or one ancient history vncensured but still charges it with some error and blemish or other But my Aduersary sayes the things which the Centuries say were blemishes in the Fathers are such points as the Church of Rome now holds whereby it should seeme that in many things they testifie with the Church of Rome against the Protestants I answer first that in some points as the diligentest that are may sometime ouersee and now and then they mistake and call that the opinion or the error of a Father that is not This kind of ouersight we perceiue and pardon in our Aduersaries themselues Secondly diuers things noted by them for errors in the Fathers are not holden by the Church of Rome but are censured also by our Aduersaries themselues as well as by the Centuries Thirdly diuers points in particular Fathers are taxed which belong to that which is now holden in the Church of Rome but this iustifies not the Papists first because in such points there is no vnanime consent of all the Fathers or all the Church but onely the vnsetled and ambulatory opinions of some priuate Doctors Next what these Doctors deliuered touching such points is holden otherwise and to other intents and purposes now in the Church of Rome as their praying for the dead which the Centuries iustly note for a blemish was not with opinion of Purgatory as now it is in Rome Thirdly the mystery of iniquity began to worke in the primitiue Church whereby the fathers themselues though Bishops of the Church and most holy men yet but men sometime were deceiued and brought into error in some things thus it is written of Papias r Baron an 118 n. 2. 6. a Bishop of great authority in the Church and famous for the holines of his life that by misunderstanding ſ Apoc. 20.4 a Text in the reuelation t Prateol elench haeret l. 3. n. 17. Hiero. de scripto c. 18. he gaue occasion of the millenary heresie afterward condemned in the Church yet his credite and estimation was such that many great men followed him Nepos Irenaeus Victorinus Tertullian Lactantius Apollinarius Coracion and diuers others For being a man as u 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euseb hist eccle l. 3. c. vlt. Eusebius sayes
as giue the diuine honour of the immortall God to a dumbe creature whose image soeuer it be And if Azorius e Azo vbi sup say true that this doctrine of Thomas and his Diuines was insinuated by the Councell of Nice then my Replier is guiltie of a third vntruth because he denies it presuming vpon the words contained in the seuenth act of the Councell which yet these Iesuites expound to containe nothing against their opinion which exposition and report of the Iesuites if you adde to that I cited out of the Emperours booke and ioyne withall the words of Baronius who reporteth that the Bishops of France conceiued the minde of the Nicene Councell to be that images should be adored with latria The Replier will haue something to doe before he can quit his Nicene Councell from that which he sayes I impute vnto it But if his Councell of Trent also be of the same minde as f Suar. tom 1. disp 54. sect 4. Vasq a dorat disp 8. c. 14. Azor. inst mor. tom 1. l. 9. c. 6. the Iesuites resolutely affirme it is then this grosse conceit went farre and their case is but indifferent that hitherto haue built their faith touching this and other points of religion vpon such as by the Repliers owne verdit were no Christians nor knew the first rudiments of religion 3 Thirdly he vpbraids me with malepertnesse for calling the Bishops of the Nicene Councell simple and vnlearned but it is his destiny still to crosse and infatuate himselfe with his forwardnesse for his owne words calls them grosse conceited and ignorant of the first rudiments of religion that hold the seruing and adoring of images with the same adoration and seruice that is giuen to the Trinitie And that they thus held and defined the Emperours booke and the Iesuites themselues testifie that I might well say they were both simple and vnlearned and something worse Thus therefore I excuse my selfe it is no malepertnesse to call them simple or vnlearned who teach the giuing of diuine honour to an image because the Replier confesseth this to be a grosse conceite of such as know not the first rudiments of religion nor that there is a God But the second Nicene Councell taught this For Azorius sayes it insinuated the worshipping of images with the same worshippe that is giuen to the samplars which is diuine worshippe in the images of God and Christ They insinuated therefore that images should be worshipped with diuine honour the same that is giuen to God and Christ Therefore they were a packe of simple and vnlearned heretickes But because he is so zealous for his friends I will if I can a little coole him till hee know better what and who they were Claudius Espencaeus a Doctour in his owne Church g Com. in 2. Tim. pag. 151. Paris hath written of them that the Greekes in their contention about Images on both sides handled the matter out of fabulous and vncertaine writings They which opposed them with writings falsely inscribed by heretickes and * Qui propugnabant daemoniaÌ„ etiam spectris muliebribus somnijs parùm verecundè abutentes they which defended them did it also with delusions of diuels and with little modestie thereto abused womens dreames as may be read in the Nicene Councell This is more then I said For I spake as temperately as it was possible of so fond Idolaters but Espencaeus giues it them with open mouth It may be read in the second Nicene Councell how images were defended with womens dreames and delusions of diuels which speech whosoeuer mislikes must consider it comes from a learned Papist and not from mee and the actes and processe of the Councell will shew it to be true The forgeries and fables and trifling discourses therein contained being such as are able to prouoke any that reades them and our aduersaries themselues are not a little intangled in them 4 Hauing thus affirmed how truly it skilleth not to the point in question that the Nicene Councell defined not the worshippe of Images with diuine honour hee passeth to the Councell of Frankford wherein I said the Nicene was condemned and the actes thereof concerning images abrogated Whereto hee answers not one true word First hee sayes the Councell of Frankford was not generall But I had witnesses in the margent that it was h Ouand 4 d. 2. prop. 8. Ouandus There were present three hundred Bishops with the Popes Legats so that the Fathers who were present called it a full Synod and in truth it cannot be cast off as a Prouinciall Councell or as without a head If it were not Prouinciall and had the Pope for head it must not bee denied to bee generall Baronius i An. 794. n. 1. sayes It is found to be called a plenarie Councell for the multitude of the Bishops and presence of the Legats of the Apostolicke sea The Bishops of Italie France and Germanie were there Hincmarus sayes it was a generall Councell whose words see * In the letter o below Secondly he shuffles with a parenthesis as if the Popes Legats were not there But you see what Baronius and Ouandus say k Chr. l. 2. n. 794 Rhegino and l Chro. an 793. the Abbot of Vrsperge testifie the same Thirdly he sayes if they were there they confirmed not any such condemnation The which is impertinent For I onely intend to shew that in the iudgement of the Christian world the bringing in of image-worship was condemned Whether the want of the Legates assent make the condemnation voide or no I care not but the reader may see Pope Adrians packing with the Greekes to set vp images was noted and resisted by all the Prouinces of the Westerne Empire Let our aduersaries proue the want of the Legats assent makes this a nullitie Fourthly hee sayes no such condemnation is to be found in the Councell of Frankford but onely in a booke ascribed to Charles and I answer the Councell of Frankford as it is set foorth in the tomes of the Councels hee knowes well enough is imperfect and containes not all that was done therein But marke what Bellarmine m De imag l. 2. c. 1◠§. Primò quâ—â— sayes That booke of Charles containes the acts of the Councell of Frankford and it may not be doubted but the Councell therein condemned is indeed the second Nicene n An. 794 n. 31. Baronius sayes that Hincmarus the Archbishop of Rhemes a writer of those times affirmes the booke to containe the acts of the Councell of Frankford that we are not to doubt thereof it containes many chapters against the Nicene Councell The words of this Hincmarus are these that my aduersarie may a litle blush at his rashnesse o Hincmar lib. cont landun c. 20. But the seuenth Synod vntruly so called which the Greekes call vniuersall not long before my time was holden at Nice and sent to Rome which the Pope againe directed
we refuse the church of Rome are nothing else but the corruptions and abuses that came in by the faction of some and were opposed by the sounder part of the Church as they grew and came in CHAP. XLIX 1.2 The ancient Church held the blessed Virgin to haue bene conceiued in sinne 3. The now Church of Rome holds the contrary Pag. 279. A. D. The fourth obiection Fourthly my aduersary M. White obiecteth eight points wherein as he saith the Church holdeth contrary to that which it hath formerly held to wit the conception of the virgin Marie Latin Seruice reading Scriptures Priests marriages Images Supremacie Communion in one kinde Transubstantiation To this I answer here onely briefly and in generall referring the Reader for more particulars to other Catholicke authors who ex professo write of these points First concerning the conception of the blessed virgin Marie it neuer was vniuersally held by the ancient Church as a point of faith that she was conceiued in sinne For if it had bene so held Saint Augustine would neuer haue pronounced so absolutely as he doth that when question is concerning sinne he would haue no mention of the blessed Virgin Neither is it now held by vs as a point of faith that she was not conceiued in sinne this being one of those points in which according to Saint Augustine an erring disputer is to be borne withall in regard the question is not diligently digested nor confirmed by full authoritie of the Church 1 THe Replier in his Treatise that I answered to proue his Romane church Catholicke a In THE WAY §. 46. 47. vsed this reason because it had still professed without change the same faith which hath bene continually since the Apostles without denying any point of doctrine which in former times was vniuersally receiued and bad vs prooue the contrary if we could To this I answered first generally and then in the 49 Digression particularly I obiected the eight points here mentioned shewing that the church of Rome holds therein contrary to that which formerly was holden Now he replies that his answer shall be but briefe and in generall referring the Reader to other Catholicke authors that purposely haue writ of these points But when he made his challenge I supposed he would haue tried them with me himselfe not by referring me to his Catholicke authors whose writings the reader hath no meanes to suruey but by bringing what he thought good out of them and letting the reader see what the issue would be betweene vs. But seeing he durst not put his cause to that kind of triall my answer shall be like his argument That I also referre the Reader to other learned men who ex professo haue answered whatsoeuer his authors haue written of these points And what himselfe hath said I will answer that the reader shall wel perceiue my instances were sufficient to shew that the church of Rome now holds contrary to that which formerly was holden and beleeued 2 First touching the conception of the blessed Virgin he sayes it was neuer vniuersally held by the ancient Church as a point of faith that she was conceiued in sinne nor is it now held in the Church of Rome as a point of faith that she was not conceiued in sinne Let vs make short worke Both these are false First it was held as a point of faith that is to say as a part of the religion and profession of those times that she was conceiued and borne in sinne as all others are This I proue by his owne authors Paulus Cortesius in his writing vpon the Sentences directed to Pope Iulius b 3. d. 4. pag. 65 sayes that one Vincentius produces 260 witnesses affirming her to be conceiued in sinne Cardinall Turrecremata c De consecr d. 4 Firmissimè â— 11. affirmes that all the Doctors in a manner hold it and that himselfe had gathered together the testimonies of three hundred to that effect noting the places and words wherein they affirme it Dominicus Bannes d 1 part qu. 1. dub 5. §. Arguitur secundo pag. 89. Venet. sayes It is the generall consent of the holy Doctors that she was conceiued in sinne and yet the contrarie opinion is holden in the Church to be not onely probable but verie godly This is plaine dealing He sayes that which is contrary to the vnanime consent of all the Fathers is now holden by the Church as the more profitable and godly opinion The like is confessed by e Bonan 3. d. 3. art 1. qu. 2. Arimin 2. d. 30. qu. 2. art 1. Capreol 3. d. 3. art 1. Caietan opusc de concept Cano loc l. 7. c. 1. others as fully To f De nat grat c 36. the place alledged out of Austin Gregorius Ariminensis g Art 3. ad 1. answers that he meanes it onely of actuall sinne In which doctrine Saint Austin is not constant neither for he sayes h De perfect iustit cont Celest sub sin elsewhere Whosoeuer he be that thinkes there haue bene or are any man or any men excepting onely the Mediator of God and men to whom the remission of their sinne was not necessarie he goes against the Scripture and the Apostles Romanes 5. And the Fathers mentioning the text of Iohn 2.4 Woman what haue I to do with thee affirme in effect that she was a sinner Saint Austin i Tulit admonitionem Filij expauescat Filij inuentutem de Symb. l. 2. c. 5. sayes Christ admonished her and bids her feare her Sonne Athanasius k 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 orat 4. aduer Arian pag. 281. sayes he checkt her Euthymius l Corripuit eam in Ioh 2. pag. 320. he rebuked her Chrysostome m Asperiora hac verba indignatio hom 20. in Ioh. that he was angrie at her Irenaeus n Repelleni eius intempestinam festinationem l. 3. c. 18. that he repelled her vnseasonable hastinesse Theophylact o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Ioh. 2. that he child her not without cause Few of the ancient Fathers this is the confession p Comm. in Ioh. 2. nu 11. of Maldonat a Iesuite but either openly say or obscurely signifie that there was some fault or error in her They thought therefore she was a sinner actually which could not haue bin if originall sinne which is the fountaine of actuall had not bin in her 3 Next the Church of Rome now holds the contrarie whether as a point of faith or no the reader shall iudge presently 1 Below in the letters First it is holden expresly contrary to that which the Fathers held that she had no originall sinne 2 Can. Bâ—n vbi sup Next I presume no Papist will denie it to be defended in the Church as a godly opinion 3 Suar. tom 2. d. 3 s 6. pro. 1. Vasq 3 d. 1â—7 n. 148. Thirdly the Church may define it when she will 4 Vasq
* Ch. 48. n. 4. elsewhere shewed in the narration of the Councels of Frankford and Paris Walafridus Strabo h In his colendi superstitionem hebetudinem pag. 3 37. b. Nouimus non adorandas nec colendas iconas ib. d. called it superstition and blockishnesse to worship them Ionas the B. of Orleance liuing the same time i Pag. 609. Bibl SS Patrum edit 1. tom 5. pag. 609. c. That which you said the worshippers of images answered in defence of their error We do not thinke any diuinitie to be in the image but we worship it onely in honour of him whose image it is we reproue and detest as well as you because WHEN THEY KNOW THERE IS NO DIVINITIE IN IMAGES THEY ARE THE MORE TO BE INVEYED AGAINST FOR GIVING TO AN INFIRME AND BEGGARLY IMAGE THE HONOR THAT IS DVE TO THE DIVINITIE How much the maintainers and followers of this error go astray from religion I need not particularly declare God grant they in the East he meanes such as held and followed the second Nicene Councel who haue inthralled themselues to this most wicked error may be deliuered from it The like is testified by Agobardus the B. of Lions at the same time who wrote a booke to proue images should not be worshipped k De pict imag pag. 237. wherein he sayes They which answer they thinke no diuinitie to be in the image they worship but onely they worship it in honour of him whose image it is are easily answered againe because if the image he worships be not God NEITHER IS IT TO BE WORSHIPPED IN HONOR OF THE SAINTS who vse not to arrogate to themselues diuine honour And he addes that the images of the Apostles and our Lord himselfe were expressed by the ancient after the custome of the Gentiles RATHER FOR LOVE AND MEMORIE THEN FOR ANY RELIGIOVS HONOR OR WORSHIP And concluding his booke l Agobard pag. 251. he sayes THIS IS THE SINCERE RELIGION THIS IS THE CATHOLICKE CVSTOME THIS THE ANCIENT TRADITION OF THE FATHERS LET THIS HIGH-WAY THEREFORE BE HOLDEN THIS IS THE DOCTRINE TAVGHT BY THE APOSTLES THE MASTERS OF THE CHVRCH THE RAMMS OF THE FLOCKE And that this image-worshippe thus set afoote by the Nicene Coâ—ncell yet was not vniformly entertained of a long time after appeares by the manifest opposition that euen within these 400 yeares m See Polyd. inuent l. 6. c. 13. Gers declat compend defect eccl n. 67. Henric. quodl 10. q. 6. Dur. 3. d. 9. q. 2. ad 4. Dur. rational l. 1. c. 3 n. 4. Pic. Mirand apol q 3. Holt. in Sap. lect 157. B. Catharin l. de cult imag Biel lect 49. Cassand consult tit de imag as learned men as any liued in the Church of Rome made against it misliking and condemning it CHAP. LIIII 1. The Popes supremacie was not in the ancient Church neither is it acknowledged at this day by many Papists Nunne Brigets speech touching the Pope And Cyrils riddle A. D. Sixtly concerning the Supremacie Pag. 285. 1 Bell. l. 2. de Rom. Pont. c. 2.13.14.15.16 c. 21. deinceps lib. 5. c. 7.8 Iodoc. Cocc others there are so sufficient testimonies both of Scriptures and Fathers alledged by our Authors for it that it is maruell that M. White durst aduenture to reckon it for a point wherein we disagree from antiquitie especially vpon so sleight grounds and insufficient authorities which are so ordinarily answered by our Authors as I thinke it not worth spending inke and paper about them True it is that the practise of this authoritie might as occasion vrged be more at one time then at another but the fulnesse of all Pastorall power ouer all Christs sheepe was equally in all Popes from the very beginning when it was giuen by our Sauiour peculiarly to S. Peter and in him to his Successors BVt a THE WAY §. 36. n. 11. inde Digr 30. I shewed this fulnesse of power was giuen neither to Peter nor his Successors and made it so plaine to the Reader that the Repliar and his consorts haue nothing to say in defence of it Their guise is to giue the onset with much breath but when they are a little taken downe they thinke it not worth inke and paper to proceed any further they maruell we dare aduenture vpon so sleight grounds their graue onsets that promised all sinceritie and vndeniable proofes are resolued into Thrasonicall brags For the testimonies alledged in the Digression did not onely shew the practise of the Popes authoritie to haue bene lesse in the Primitiue Church then now it is but they make it euident that what he now practises and then began to claime or vsurpe more then the other three Patriarks had was vnlawfull I shewed his title of vniuersall Bishop his intermedling with Appeales his going beyond the Church canons and out-stripping the other Patriarkes his malepertnesse with Kings and their states was all condemned in those dayes by the doctrine and practise of the Church This was directly to the point when he bad me shew what point of doctrine the Romish Church now holds or denies contrary to the vniuersall Churh He sayes the authorities alledged are ordinarily answered by his Authors Coccius and Bellarmine This is his ordinary answer But had he told the Reader what his Authors say it would not haue endured day-light And as it pleases God all the world now sees the vttermost that can be said for the Supremacie is vented and Bellarmine himselfe is not onely confuted by others of his owne side but is at that fault with his directè and indirectè that we iustly begin to thinke he dotes * The B. of Ely As good a man and as learned as himselfe euery day in the yeare hath so vncased him that the titles of his learning and reputation of his greatnes shall deceiue vs no more And this I admonish the Replier that if the Pope spend the reuenues of his triple crowne vpon inke and paper he cannot iustifie his present vsurpations which not we alone abhorre but his owne Church b See controu memorab inter Paul 5. Ven. at Venice and at c De eccl polit potest Paris 1612. Paris this day hath cast off and d Occh. Rosell Rosat Marsil Maior Alliac Zabarel Cusan Dante 's WalraÌ„ Lupold and diuers others whose bookes are wel known and extant many of his owne Doctors within the compasse of the last 400 yeares haue condemned and the late Councels of Constance and Basil laboured to restraine And the Replier is too immodest to say he maruels I durst aduenture to reckon this of all points when the disagreement from antiquitie is more sensible in no point That now we may say of the Pope as e Brig reuel l 6 c. 96. Nunne Brigit sometime writ He that should crie Come and you shall finde rest to your soules now cries Come and see me in pomp and ambition
morall law of God indispensable that violence and corruption shall bring none to the altar Secondly de facto it hath not hitherto bene repealed nor k See Cresper sum v. Papa electio the many lawes to the same effect made from the beginning and therefore it and they hold in all the vnlawfull successions that are past nullifying and disabling them Thirdly the Pope thus entring cannot repeale them because by them he is no Pope and none can abrogate a former decree but he that is a lawfull Pope If therefore the Popes owne law or the originall constitution of the vniuersall Church forbidding simoniacall hereticall and violent entrances be of any force to giue being or not being succession or not succession thereunto it is more then manifest that by Simonie and violent intrusions the outward succession of the Bishops of Rome hath notoriously bene interrupted and ouerthrowne To that he supplies touching the vacancie I haue said before 11 But I obiected yet three other things First the wicked and monstrous life of many Popes Secondly the infancie of one and the youth of some other For Bennet was but 10 yeare old when he was chosen Thirdly the vnlearnednesse of many who vnderstood not any part of the word of God by all which I shewed the succession to haue bene ouerthrowne as well as by the former To the first he saies that as the lewd life of the Pharisees was no iust cause to hinder the people from hearing them sitting as they did in Moses chaire no more doth the euil life of the Pope disable him from being the vniuersall Pastor of the Church Yet who sees not that if the Pope were Christs vicar the rule of faith and iudge of religion whom all men must obey in whatsoeuer he teaches touching faith and manners God were bound to guide him from falling into such horrible wickednesse They haue bene heretickes murtherers Sodomites Incestuous Adulterers Traitors Coniurers Nigromancers Drunkards Atheists Diuels incarnate the onely monsters that the Church hath bred and when they are at the best they are commonly worse then the ordinary sort of men all this I haue shewed and proued and is it probable God hath put such persons into such authoritie and committed the whole administration of his Church to them True it is the Pharisees must be obeyed * The text affirmes no more See the WAY §. 14. nu 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Theophylact in Matth. 23. p. 97. Maldonate the Iesuite hauing cast off the exposition that said The chaire coÌ„strained them to teach the truth expounds it thus Ergo cum iubet serâ—are ac facere quae Scribae Pharâ—saei dum in Cathedra Mosis sedeâ—t dicunt non de ipsorum sed de legis ac Mâ—sis doctrina loquitur perinde enim est ac si dicat omnia quae lex Moses vobis dixerint Scribis Pharisaeis recitantibus seruare ac facite in that they taught truely notwithstanding their wicked liues and this priuiledge we deny neither the Pope nor any Bishop be he neuer such a monster if he haue a calling to the place he holds and teaches according to the chaire of truth let not his vnholy life discharge the flocke from hearing him But neither hath the Pope any lawfull calling to the office he claimes and exercises nor doth he teach according to the chaire of truth and therefore his wicked life argues Gods curse vpon both his place and his person to occupie such a place as God hath not ordained To the second and third he grants a young child or a wilde youth or an ignorant vnlearned man may well be Pope because our Lord out of the mouth of infants can worke his praise and by the mouth of an Asse instruct a Prophet Hearken then you that are the Popes subiects I will but keepe quarters with his answer you haue often heard of Asinus ad lyram now you may heare Asinum in Cathedra my Aduersarie saies if a golden Asse take holy orders or which God forbid De Asinitate Romani Pontificis Schiopp Ecclesiast should chance to be made Pope of Rome stabled in the Vatican when heresies or controuersies in Religion arise the Cardinals and Bishops adoring him might safely inquire at his mouth what is to be done and what to be holden for the truth In old time a Iud. 10.4 12.14 Princes children had wont to ride vppon Asses now the newes is that Asses may ride vpon Princes and Cardinals and Friars may be his footmen This is the consequence of my Aduersaries Reply for it deserues no better answer that maintaines the sufficiency of a child ten yeares of age and of an ignorant vnlearned man or for need of an Asse for the supporting of the faith and frame of the Catholicke Church of Christ Sidonius b Sidon lib. 1. epist 8. saies merrily of the lake of Rauenna that there as if the world were turned vpside downe the wals flow and the waters stand towers saile and ships stand still sicke men walke and their Physitions lie the liuing suffer thirst and the dead swim theeues wake and powers sleepe Clearks exercise vsury and Iewes sing This peruerse order of things is allowed in the Church of Rome by my Aduersaries conceite of infants and Asses A.D. To the EIGHT I answer Pag. 292. that the Schismes which haue bene in the Papacie do not ouerthrow true succession For in those Schismes vnlesse for a time there were vacancie of the Sea there was alwaies either one who truly was and who was to some certainely knowne to be Pope as for example Vrbanus and his successours were in the time of the great schisme knowne to be true Popes or else if for any short time there was none certainely knowne to be true Pope there wanted not meanes in Gods Church in such a case to cleare the doubt by making a new vndoubtable lawfull election either in an ordinary manner prescribed by some precedent true Pope or in an extraordinary manner prescribed by the Church in a generall Councell or otherwise graue and vrgent circumstances requiring that such extraordinary manner of election should be then vsed As for example when in time of schisme great doubt is who is true Pope in which extraordinary manner Martinus Quintus was lawfull elected true Pope Thus I hope I haue answered the chiefe arguments that my Aduersaries do or can obiect against my Catalogue c. 12 What man would imagine a succession wherein haue bene more schismes then euer was in any one Sea should be offered vs with that confidence that this of Rome is There are assigned not so few as 30 seuerall times wherein there haue bene either foure or three or two Popes at once of which schismes some haue continued a long space together with the greatest violence and outrage of one Pope against another that can be said no man liuing being able to discerne which was the true successor