of themselues of their folowers The 51. Demaund Apostasie LAST of all to be short to cut off many other questions of like weight that I could demaund whether as in euery one of these Demaundes it is euident that they be Heretickes and Seducers so in many of them and much more in all of them it bee not likewise euidēt that they be litle better thē plaine Apostataes as First in changing the Priesthoode Heb. 7. c. 12. wherupon the change of al the Lawe ensueth as we see they also thereupon haue chānged wel neare all which no olde Heretikes euer durst to do except it were the Manichees Orat. de 5. Haer. c. 7.10.6 whom S. Augustine for that cause did note to be somthing els then Heretiks in saying that there were fiue sorts of people in the world Iewes Paganes Manichees Heretikes and Catholickes Secondly in reuiuing not one or two but so many olde Heresies besides as I am bould to say at leaste a thousand more of their owne inuention Thirdly for taking from Christian men so many arguments of Christs God head and Diuinitie as the inuisible Continuance and Authoritie of his Church the Honour of Crosses the vertue of Crosses the Honor of Relikes the vertue of Relikes Miracles Exorcismes Vnitie Sacrifice c. Fourthly for leauing nothing vndenied not Fathers not Councels not Traditions not Scriptures nor the only witnesse of all Canonical Scripture the Churches authoritie departing from the Faith of al ages since Christs time agreeing with no Christian time nor none with them Fifthly in place of al Religion and goodnes which they haue remoued deuising a new gospel of their foresaid onely vaine Faith which teacheth all Sinnes and all Heresyes to presume of saluation Besides much more that I need not to repeate And whether therefore people now a daies be not to to carelesse and negligēt of their soules that whereas they shoulde not vnder paine of euerlasting damnation yeald to any one Heresie haue so fowly yelded to so fowle Apostasie How beit as S. Peter saide to the Iewes Act. 3. Et nunc fratres scio quia per ignorantiam fecistis sicut principes vestri so I doubte not but that in our Countrey likewise many of all sortes may be somewhat excused by ignorance and therefore the more hope there is for such as wil repent But otherwise if any for all this list wilfully to folow on most fowly and most miserably deceauing them selues by cause afore God they can not possibly haue any excuse of their so doing no more then if they should consent to folow the proceedinges or to frequent the churches of the Arrians or of any other olde Heretikes yea or of the Turkes them selues if perhappes they liued vnder the raigne of such And therefore I say if any liste to contemne stil all holsome counsell and desperatelye to followe on not to returne to the Truth so manifoldly and so plainely opened some also to perfecute it moste malicioussy their blood at leaste wise Ezecb. 3 shal not bee required at our handes hereafter when they shall repente to late CERTAINE OTHER DEMANDS ANNEXED TO THE FORMER VERY FIT Also to be proposed to our En-English Protestants but principally vnto our Puritans EXTRACTED Out of a learned booke made by the Reu. Fa. Iohn Hay Priest of the Society of Iesus proposed vnto the Ministers of Scotland With licence Anno 1623. Stand yee vpon the wayes and see and aske of the old pathes which is the good way and walke yee in it and you shall find refreshing for your soules Ieremy 6.16 There must be heresyes that they who are approued may be knowne among you Cor. And I desire you brethrē to mark them that make dissentions and scandals contrary to the doctrine which you haue learned and auoyd them for such do not serue Christ our Lord but their owne belly and by sweet speaches and benedictions seduce the harts of innocents Rom. 16.17 I know that after my departure there will rauening wolues enter in among you not sparing the flocke and out of your owne selues shall arise men speaking peruerse thinges to draw away disciples after themselues Acts 20.29 THE PREFACE GENTLE Reader by the little experience that I haue in matter of disputation against Protestants I find the Prouerb to be verifyed which sayth That Aristotles Asse is able to deny more then Aristotle himself is able to proue For the most ignorant companion that euer handled a cudgell in schoole makes a shew to be some tale and iollie fellow all the while the skilfull Fencer suffers and wills his young schollar to lay at his Master he in the meane tyme lying only at his locke and defending himselfe and not offending his vnskillfull schollar But when this Maister begins to let flye at this ignorant fellow and to teach him the Art as well to defend himselfe as to offend others alas how doe the standers by laugh at this poore apprentice To see him who seemed some-body a little before to be now no-body and to be knockt and rapt how and where his Master listes The very like is to be sayd of the combate or Controuersy in Religion where let Protestantes alone still to stricke obiect and lay loade at Catholikes one would thinke I wosse that there were some matter in them For in opposing the Reall presence Purgatory Images Prayers to Saints Rayling at the Pope and the like you would thinke them to be some iollie fellowes but alas turne the offenciue weapon towardes him lay at him a little and do but teach this bould offender of others to defend himself all the beholders burst out in laughter and the poore schollar proues so vnskillfull that the blowes he should receaue vpon his buckler he beareth them off with his head and shoulders and is knockt and rapt euery where where the Fencer listes For euen so Protestantes seeme to shew some small skill in offending vs and our Religion but being put to defend their owne alas what poore Fencers doe they proue Let the Reader be but an indifferent behoulder of this ensuing combate and I assure him he cannot looke on but he shall laugh for his labour The 1. Demaund Their first Preachers VVHETHER the gospel of Christ was at any time preached in Scotland before Paul Methuen sir Iohn Knox yea or no 2. VVhence their Doctrine Seing no man ought to preach any doctrine but that which he hath learned in the Church of God because as witneseth S. Paul saith cometh by hearing Rom. 10 I demand from what Doctors or Pastors Iohn Caluin sir Iohn Knox and their like first learned their new doctrine now preached in the realme of Scotland 3. VVhence their vocation And sith it is written that no man may preach vnles he be sent Rom. 10 I demād by what power Syr Iohn Knox with other Apostataes Priests Monkes and Friars tooke vpon them this vocation 4. If Conforme to predecessors
Bishops or Priestes of our churches making which I touched a little before and many of them also Monkes as a Soz. l. 6. cap. 15. Ruf. l. 2. c. 28. S. Basil S. Gregory Nazianzen b Hier proae l. 4. in Iere. S. Hierome c Aug. ep 89. q. 4. cō Petil. l. 3 cap. 40. S. Augustine d Greg dial l. 4. cap. 55. S. Gregory of Rome e Paul ep 7. ad Seu. S. Paulinus and many others And these and all the rest I say of one religion and therefore no one of them all of the Protestants religion and therefore againe the church at no tyme of the Protestants religion The 27. Demande Councells VVHETHER they know not that their Religion hath been of late examined diligently and finally condemned and ours confirmed in the Generall councell of Trent And whether euer any refused to yeald to a General councell but onely Heretikes And whether they can giue any iust cause why mē should beleue that in old tyme Generall councels might with authority define and determine of faith and religion this councell might not Yea whether not only this but also any other General councels were euer holden by Protestantes or for Protestantes and not all as well as this by men of our church and for our church as by Bishops that were made after our manner aforsayd many of them being also Monkes and all of the same religion with Monks hauing there also their Deacons and Subdeacons and Acolytes c. waiting vpon them and no one of them euer that marryed or thought it lawfull to marry after that he was made a Bishop Besides many other pointes of their doctrine also that may for vs against the Protestantes be noted in the actes of those councelles Finally if euer any such councell were for them let them tell vs why they write speake so much against all councells cōpelling vs to defend their authority and yet let them say whether all other catholike Bishops and all the church were not at those seuerall tymes of the councels religion and all those councels of one religion and therfore the church neuer of the Protestants religion The 28. Demaund Sea Apostolike VVHETHER they confesse not that we at this tyme do beleeue and communicate with the sea Apostolike of the church of Rome Whether Catholickes did not alwaies so doe Whether euer any refused obstinately so to doe Opt. l. 2. frl 15. Vict. de persec Vand. l. 2 fol. 20. August cou ep Fund c. 4. but onely Schismatikes and Heretickes Whether the holy Fathers by their so doing did not vse to confounde al Heretickes to shew thereby that they did beleeue and communicate with S. Peter S. Paule Away as most easy so continually most sure and certaine to auoide all error The 29. Demaund Traditions VVHE THER they wil be tried by traditiōs most certaine that haue bene alwaies in the Church of Christ Yea whether it be not a plaine ouerthrowing of all theire buildinge onely to heare that there haue bene alwaies suche Traditions in the Church of Christ Or let them say whether theyfind not in most approued Antiquitie such Traditions Chrysos hom 69. ad popul Antioc Cyp. ep 63. Aug. ep 118. c. 6. Or whether they find any such Tradition making for them and not for vs Or whether euer any denied obstinately all Traditiō crying in euery thing for only Scripture but only Heretiks The 30. Demaunde Their owne doctors VVETHER they will be tried by their owne Doctors and Felowes as by Luther Caluine Lib. in Zuing. an 1545 and such like And whether they know not that Luther hath written many Bookes full bitterly against them and condemned thē to Hell because they be Sacramentaries denying the real presence of Christes Body in the B. Sacrament And that Caluine likewise calleth it a blasphemie to geue to the King In Amos 7. and much more to a Quene the Headship or Primacie of the CHVRCH of England And therfore aske thē with what cōscience yea with what face they can say theirs to be the true Church which compelleth men so to blaspheme and that with booke othe their felow Puritanes at home also abhorring it That I speake not of many other pointes also of their Doctrine condemned also by theire owne felowes as they know thēselues whosoeuer els that readeth their Bookes The 31. Demaund Vniuersalitie WHETHER they know not vin Lyr con omnes Ha◠c. 3.4.31.41 Opt. l. 2 f 13. Bed Hist 4.5 c. 16. that the Auncient Fathers haue taught vs in such a doubtfull time of Heresie as this is to trie out the truth by Vniuersalitie that they meane thereby if at any time we see a piece of Christēdome diuide it self frō the whole that wee folow then the whole the Vniuersalitie I say of the Church in our owne time and not the piece Aske the Protestantes now if this had bene done in Luthers time whom shoulde Christan men haue folowed Luther or the Pope And if the Pope then now also the Pope pardie Gregorie the thirtenth that now is agreing in all as they know with Leo the tenth that was thē Aske thē Finally whether they singe not therfore against themselues in Te Deum when they say Te per orbem terrarum sancta confitetur Ecclesia which is to say that the faith or confession of the vniuersall Church that is the true confession The 32. Demaund Antiquitie VVHETHER they know not that the same Fathers haue taught vs Vine Lyr c. 3.4.6.7.8.9.38.41 for trying out of Truth to look likewise vnto Antiquitie and that as by Vniuersalitie they meane our owne time so by Antiquity they meane the time that was before our owne time teaching vs therfore by this if in our owne time any Noueltie do raign and that perhaps vniuersally that then we haue respecte to the former time before such Noueltie did arise Aske the Protestantes then whether they be content so to do And whether three score yeeres ago before Luther arose Christendome were of their Religion yea whether it were not of our Religion both then and many hundred yeeres afore and that by their owne confession The 33. Demaund Consent VVHETHER the same Fathers haue not taught vs to trie out Truth by Consent also And Vin. Lyr. c. 3.4.8.10.11.38.41 Bed hist. l. 3. c. 25 whether they meane not thereby that supposing both the Vniuersalitie of our owne time were corrupt also the Antiquitie of former time were at variance we should thē haue an eie to Cōsent in Antiquitie As if there had bin of olde some one Father or some one Prouinciall Councel for the Protestants as yet there was not to see thē whether there were not some General Councel against them Aske them now whether that before Luther was borne there were not many Generall Councells yea all Generall Councells against them and yet neither any Prouincial Councell nor so much as any one
d. 17. Gospel by most auÌ„cient Christian b Iustin. con Triphon Tertul. in Apol. ad ScapulaÌ„ Cip. adu Demetr de va nitate Idolorum Arnob. contra Gentes Lact. l. 2 cap. 16. writers to the Painimes That their Idolles were not Godes but that Christ is God because ChristiaÌ„ men haue amoÌ„gest them an ordinarie power giuen by Christ to adiure Diuelles yea and the same Diuelles that were the Painimes Goddes with meruailous authoritie to encrease vpon them infinite tormentes vntil by such constraint they both confesse their names with other thinges that they be asked and also finally depart out of the bodies which they had posessed The practise wherof any man that list may see also at this day in our Church as my selfe and many other of our Countreimen haue seene and in all ages the like practise of our Church as the learned Protestantes doe know is recorded in Histories as the Diuell neuer ceasseth thus vexing of men so the church neuer ceasing to vse this power of hers against him for such as seeke vnto her Now let the Protestants that resist this church be asked what they can answere to this Motiue in behalfe of the Painimes and of the Diuels themselues whether they dare say or can shewe that the argument prooueth not the Idolles vanitie and christs Diuinitie S. Cyp. de vanitat Idolor num 4. Con. Car 4. ca. 7. Paulin. in Nata 4. S. Fe licis Or that in olde time it did but now doth not And what difference they can geue vs betwene the churchs Exorcismes then and now Or rather let theÌ„ humblie confesse their faulte that in drawing men away from this church they haue drawen them from their vndoubted sauegarde and so lefte them desolate and open to the Diuells inuasion working therby for the Diuells kingdome so manifestly that his raigning in their countreis people and proper persons is most euident and notorious which our Exorcistes would if they might be suffered geue them to see in many of themselues no lesse theÌ„ to Demetrian the Proconsull of Afrike who yet thought himselfe for witt tongue against christ in defence of his Diuells a passing orator to whom it were good for the new preachers to consider deeply what S. Cyprian writeth O sayth he that thou wouldest heare Cyp. ad Demet. num 6. and see them when of vs they be adiured and tormented with spirituall whippes and by torments of wordes cast out of bodies by them possessed c. Vent cognosce vera esse quae dicimus Come and see by experience that we say true c. Aut si volueris tibi credere de te ipso loquetur audiente te qui nunc tuum pectus obsedit Or if thou wilt beleeue thy selfe also out of thy selfe shall he speake in thine owne hearing that hath now possessed thy hart The 18. Demaund Destroying of Idolatry VVHETHER they see not by this that I haue saide that as it is our church which hath conuerted and doth conuert all Nations vnto christ so it is our church that hath destroied and doth destroy Idolatry Or let them say whether that both our Nation all other Nations now of christendome were not before their christening worshipers of Idoles as Iupiter Mars Venus c. And whether that vpon their Christening by vs they haue not bene so fully turned froÌ„ those Idolls that the Multitude hath forgotten their very names also And therefore whether it be any other church but ours Zac. 13. a 1. that fullfilleth the Scriptures which foretold of the destroying forgetting of Idolles ouer all the world Câ—â—â—â— S. Babil And whether auncient storyes and other writers doe not reporte the same oftentymes to haue beene done by our holy Images signes of the Crosse Relikes of Saints and most blessed Sacramente of the Altar And therefore againe whether Protestants in calling most blasphemously these points of our Religion Idolatry which I say haue destroyed and doe destroy Idoles be not as blind as he that sayth Isa 5. c. 20. white is blacke or rather as peruerse as he that sayth God is bad The 19. Demand Kinges VVHERAS the holy Scripture speaketh much of the conuersion of a Is 49. Kings at length namely of the b 7. f. 23 b Is 60. c. 14. b 11. Roman Emperours though first most cruell persecutors of the Christians ask the Protestantes first whether this doe not argue cleane against them that whereas they say the Church and fayth of Christ did soone begin to perish and vanish quite away that cleane contrary to them I say euen then to wit certaine hundred yeares after the beginning it increased much and florished a great deale more catching then hold also of those mighty Powers before her persecutours by their help in very short tyme destroying Idols and building Churches spreading it selfe ouer all the world Secondly aske them whether any one of those Emperors were conuerted to their Religion or whether such of them as were to be commended for some they well known fell afterward to be Heretikes though not Protestants But of them I say that were most Christian catholik as Constant Theod. c. Aske the Protestants whether they are not plainely reported to haue been of our Religion as c Aug. ep 42. Eus de vit Constant l. 3 c. 1. l. 4. c. 58.71 running to Relikes praying to Saintes praying for the dead d Theâ— hist l. c. 17. submitting themselues to the Church and generally in all other pointes so to be gathered by their lawes and specially by the tyme when they liued which tyme the heretikes do so plainely see to haue beene ours that they are fayn to say that Christs church did faile before that tyme. Thirdly wee aske them els whether they will for tryal of the truth get vs leaue to appeare with them before the Queens highnes both of vs to ioyne with her Maiesty in that Religion which shal be clearely proued to haue beene the religioÌ„ of those Emperours not only of so many Kinges and Queenes at home her noble Progenitors but of those very Emperours I say whose Religion and conuersion was so long c Isa 60. c. 14. d 11. afore more plainly foretold promised in the Scripture and there most specially the Religion euen of those whoÌ„ the great Oratour of VVoodstocke namely commended of late vnto her Highnes to wit a Theodosius Valentinianus d Theod lib. 5. c 36. Soc. l. 7. c. 21.46 Soz. l. 9. cap. 1.2 and Pulcheria the Virgin and Emperesse The 20. Demaunde In all persecutions BEcause the Romane Emperours first were persecutours Protestantes haue talked much of persecution as though we vsed them so as those Tyrants vsed the first Christians to the end that the truth many be plainly knowen aske them whether they wil be content to trye this coÌ„trouersy of Religion which is between vs Comfort sor Catholiks in England
Seeing you acknowledge in your Confession of faith that the Sacraments ought only to be ministred by such as are called therunto by ordinary vocation I demand if your vocation vnto the ministrie be like vnto the calling of all others who haue gone before you in the Church of Christ since the time of the Apostles whom both yee and wee repute and hould to haue been Iawfull pastors and teachers of his flock as S. Cyprian S. Augustin S. Ambrose and diuers others wishing you to shewin al points the conformitie of your vocation with that of theirs 5. who their Doctors Seing after the discours of the election of your Ministers Elders and Deacons yee acknowledge that the Scriptures make mention of a fourth kind of Ministers lest vnto the Church of Christ which also are very necessarie profitable Ephes 4. 1. Cor. 12. and are called by the name of teachers and doctors whose office it is to teach and instruct the faithfull in sound doctrine prouiding with all diligence that the puritie of the gospel be not corrupted ether throgh ignorance or false opinion I pray you to shew at what time any Doctors of such calling haue bene in your Church before Iohn Caluin because the places of Scripture noted by you teach and declare that God hath appointed such meanes in his church that it should neuer be left desolate nor yet his Doctrine to decay for wāt of Doctors other teachers 6. Their admission of Tinkers c. And seeing yee confes in the same place that men cannot profit so well in the knowledge aforesayd vnles they be first instructed in the learned tongues humane sciences for now God doth not commonly worke by miracles and that therefore it is necessary that seed be sowen for the tyme to come to the end that the Church be not left barren wast vnto posterity and also that for this effect schooles be erected wherin youth may be trayned vp in the knowledge and feare of God I demand why yee admitted at the first entry of your doctrine into Scotland and yet doe Taylors Skinars and other Artificers who were neuer instructed but in their owne craft and occupation which they left and abiured and out of their owne heades without any further calling vnto the ministery began to teach the people hauing for all their learning and forme of preaching some English books only which yet themselues very hardly vnderstood 7. If the only written word be Iudge Seeing that among other heads of your alleadged fayth this is one principall that nothing is to be beleeued Cal. l. 4. Inst c. 8. sect 8. but what is found in the written word I demaund what testimony yee haue in the same for assurance of your faith in this point And whether the fayth of the Apostles was groūded on the written word or not 8. S. Thomas Ghospell Where is it written that there is only foure Ghospels and that the Ghospell of S. Matthew with the other three ought to be recea ued and not the Ghospell of S. Thomas Or what authority hath moued you to receaue som books or chapters for canonical scriptur and to refuse or reiect others Or if any man deny any booke of the new Testament as Martin Luther doth the epistle of S. Iames what argumentes haue yee from the Scripture to condemne him Praef. in nou Test 9. VVhy Iewes credited Seeing yee giue so great authority to the Synagogue of the Iewes that according to their canon yee admit reiect sundry bookes of holy Scripture why giue yee not the like authority to the Christian church which hath gone before you in receauing such bookes as are approued by her for canonicall Scripture And if the only cause which moues you to reiect such bookes be because they were not approued by the Synagogue of the Iewes why by the same reason reiect yee not Christ himselfe seeing that Synagogue would not admit him for their Messias 10. Churches authoritie If it be the office of the church to discerne betwixt canonicall Scripture and not canoniall as a De capt Bab Luther b In prologo cont Pet. à Soto Brentius and other of your owne masters doe confes why should not the same church be heard of you in giuing her interpretation vpon any doubtfull place therof called in question Or why call yee more in dout the interpretation of the Scripture giuen by the Church then the very bookes themselues Or why prefer yee the priuat opiniō of Iohn Caluin and your selues before the vniuersall and vniforme consent of all Christian people before you 11. Citing only the written word Why esteeme yee Calu. l. 4 Inst c. 8. num 13. that yee haue an infallible marke of the true religion because yee cite only the written word seeing this hath beene common to all heretiques from the beginning Or what haue you more to say for your felues then they had for themselues in this point 12. If Scripture be easy If the Scripture be so easy as yee teach it to be c Luth de ser arbit what hath moued your owne writers to make so many cōmentaryes therupon Or what is the cause that ther is so great controuersy in religiō as we see at this day Yea euē vpon the expresse wordes of the last Testament of our Lord which according to the nature of a Testament should be most cleere 13. Conference of places If the priuate iudgment of euery one conferring Scripture with Scripture be a certaine and infallible rule of right interpretatiō as yee say how is it that so many grosse contradictions are foūd in your writinges gayn-saying not only one another but your selues also as is euident in your owne bookes 14. No meanes to be resolued Seeing that the Lutherans the Zuinglians and the Caluinists besides an infinite number of other sectes doe euery one alleage the written word for cōfirmation of their contrarie opinions how shall it be knowen to any man that would resolue himselfe in matters of religion which of them haue the true word sith it is the true vnderstanding that maketh the word and not the outward sounding of the voice as Christ himselfe saith who obiected to the Saduces Mat. 12. that they mistooke the Scriptures because they vnderstood not the meaning of them 15. Traditions Why deny yee any credit to be giuen to Traditions contrary to a Cal. l. 4. iust c. 10. the expres commandment of the Apostle writing to the Thessalonians in this maner b 2. Thes 2. Stand and keepe the Traditions which yee haue receiued whither by word or by our epistle And also contrary to the doctrne of all the auncient doctors of the church Or how haue yee the Scripture it selfe but by Tradition And seeing yee will giue no place vnto Traditions what assurance haue yee that since the Natiuitie of Christ there is only 1623. yeares Or whither it be lawfull for Christian men to call this point in