question which I will neuer take vpon mee to answere whether King Henry were such or no vnlesse you will before hand interpret this word as fauourably as Guicciardine doth tell vs men are wont to doe in the censuring your heads of the Church For Popes he saith now adayes are praised for their goodnesse when they exceed not the wickednesse of other men After this description of a good head of the Church or if yee will that of Cominaeus which saith hee is to bee counted a good King whose vertues exceeds his vices I wil not doubt to say King Henry may be enrolled among the number of good Kings In speciall for his executing that highest dutie of a good King the imploying his authoritie in his Kingdome to command good things and forbid euill not onely concerning the ciuill estate of men but the religion also of God Witnesse his authorizing the Scriptures â—o be had and read in Churches in our Vulgar tongue enioyning the Lords Prayer the Creed and ten Commandements to bee taught the people in English abolishing superfluous Holy-dayes pulling downe those iugling Idols whereby the people were seduced namely the Rood of Grace whose eyes and lips were moued with wires openly shewed at Pauls Crosse and pulled asunder by the people Aboue all the abolishing of the Popes tyranny and merchandise of Indulgences such like chafer out of England Which Acts of his whosoeuer shall vnpartially consider of may well esteeme him a better head to the Churâ—h of England then any Pope these thousand yeeres In the last place you come to the Hugenots and Geuses of France and Holland You lay to their charge the raising of ciuill warres shedding of bloud occasioning rebellion rapine desolations principally for their new religion In the latter part you write I confesse somewhat reseruedly when you say occasioning not causing and principally not onely and wholly for religion But the words going before and the exigence of your argument require that your meaning should be they were the causers of these disorders You bring to my minde a story whether of the same Fimbria that I mentioned before or another which hauing caused Quintus Scaeuola to bee stab'd as F. Paulo was while I was at Venice after he vnderstood that he escaped with his life brought his action against him for not hauing receiued the weapon wholly into his body These poore people hauing endured such barbarous cruelties massacres and martyrdomes as scarce the like can be shewed in all stories are now accused by you as the Authors of all they suffered No no Master Wadesworth they bee the Lawes of the Romane religion that are written in bloud It is the bloudy Inquisition and the perfidious violating of the Edicts of Pacification that haue set France and Flanders in combustion An euident argument whereof may bâ—e for Flanders that those Geuses that you mention were not all Caluinists as you are mis-informed the chiefe of them were Romane Catholikes as namely Count Egmond and Horne who lost their heads for standing and yet onely by petition against the new impositions and the Inquisition which was sought to bee brought in vpon those Countries The which when the Vice-roy of Naples D. Petro de Toledo would haue once brought in there also the people would by no meanes abide but rose vp in Armes to the number of 50000. which sedition could not bee appeased but by deliuering them of that feare The like resistance though more quietly carried was made when the same Inquisition should haue beene put vpon Millaine sixteene yeeres after Yet these people were neither Geuses nor Caluinists Another great meanes to alienate the mindes of the people of the Low-countries from the obedience of the Catholike Maiestie hath beene the seueritie of his Deputies there one of which leauing the gouernment after hee had in a few yeeres put to death 8000. persons it is reported to haue been said the Countrie was lost with too much lenitie This speech Meursius concludes his Belgick history with all And as for France the first broiles there were not for religion but for the preferring the house of Guisâ— and disgracing the Princes of the bloud True it is that each side aduantaged themselues by the colour of religion and vnder pretence of zeale to the Romane the Guisians murthered the Protestants being in the exercise of their religion assembled together against the Kings Edict against all Lawes and common humanitie And tell â—ee in good sooth Master Wadesworth doe you approue such barbarous crueltie Doe you allow the butchery at Paris Doe you thinke subiects are bound to giue their throates to bee cut by their fellow subiects or to their Princes at their meere wills against their owne Lawes and Edicts You would know quo iure the Protestants warres in France and Holland are iustified First the Law of Nature which not onely alloweth but inclineth and inforceth euery liuing thing to defend it selfe from violence Secondly that of Nations which permitteth those that are in the protection of others to whom they owe no more but an honourable acknowledgement in case they goe about to make themselues absolute Souereignes and vsurpe their libertie to resist and stand for the same And if a lawfull Prince which is not yet Lord of his Subiects liues and goods shall attempt to despoile them of the same vnder colour of redâ—cing them to his owne religion after all humble remonstrances they may stand vpon their owne guard and being assailed repell force with force as did the Macchabees vnder Antiochus In which case notwithanding the person of the Prince himselfe ought alwaies to be sacred and inuiolable as was Sauls to Dauid Lastly if the inraged Minister of a lawfull Prince will abuse his authoritie against the fundamentall Lawes of the Countrie it is no rebellion to defend themselues against force reseruing still their obedience to their Souereigne inuiolate These are the Rules of which the Protestants that haue borne Armes in France and Flanders and the Papists also both there and elsewhere as in Naples that haue stood for the defence of their liberties haue serued themselues How truely I esteeme it hard for you and mee to determine vnlesse we were more throughly acquainted with the Lawes and Customes of those Countries then I for my part am Once for the Low-Countries the world knowes that the Dukes of Burgundy were not Kings or absolute Lords of them which are holden partly of the Crowne of France and partly of the Empire And of Holland in particular they were but Earles And whether that title carries with it such a Souereigntie as to bee able to giue new Lawes without their consents to impose tributes to bring in garisons of strangers to build Forts to assubjects their honors and liues to the dangerous triall of a new Court proceeding without forme or figure of iustice any reasonable man may well doubt themselues doe vtterly denie it Yet you say boldly they are Rebels and aske
the present state of Geneua did then require But bee it and for my part I thinke no lesse that herein hee was mistaken to account this to bee the true forme of Church policie by which all other Churches and at all times ought to bee gouerned let his error rest with him yea let him answere it vnto his Iudge but to accuse him of ambition and sedition and that falsly and from thence to set that brand vpon the reformation whereof he was a worthy instrument though not the first either there or any where else as if it could not bee from God being so founded for my part I am afraide you can neuer bee able to answere it at the same Barre no nor euen that of your owne conscience or of reasonable and equall men For the stirres broiles seditions and murthers in Scotland which you impute to Knox and and the Geneua Gospellers they might be occasioned perhaps by the reformers there as the broiles which our Loâ—d Iesus Christ saith he came to set in the world by the Gospell Possible also that good men out of incoÌ„siderate zeale should do some things rashly And like enough the multitude which followed them as being foreprepared with a iusthatred of the tyrannie of their Prelates and prouoked by the opposition of the aduerse faction emboldned by successâ— ran a great deale further then either wise men could foresee or tell how to restraine them Which was applauded and fomented by some politicke men who tooke aduantage of those motions to their owne ends And as it happens in naturall bodies that all ill humors runne to the part affected so in ciuill all discontented people when there is any sorance runne to one or other side and vnder the shew of common griefes pursue their owne Of all which distempers there is no reason to lay the blame vpon the seekers of reformation more then vpon the Phisitians of such accidents as happen to the corrupted bodies which they haue in cure The particulars of those affaires are as I beleeue alike vnknown to vs both and since you name none I can answere to none For as for the pursuing our King euen before his birth that which his Maiestie speakes of some Puritans is ouer-boldly by you referred to Master Knox and the Ministers that were authors of Reformation in Scotland Briefely consider and suruey your owne thoughts and see if you haue not come by these degreesâ— First from the inconsiderate courses of some to plant the pretended Discipline in Scotland to conceiue amisse of the Doctrine also Then to draw to the encreasing of your ill conceit thereof what you finde reported of any of the Puritans a faction no lesse opposed by his Maiesty in Scotland then with vs in England So when we speake of religion though that indeede be all one yee diuide vs into Lutherans Zwinglians Caluinists Protestants Brownists Puritans Cartwrightists whensoeuer any disorder of all this number can be accused then loe are we all one and the faulâ— of any faction is the slander of all yea of the Gospell it selfe and of reformation Iudge now vprightly if this be indifferent dealing From Scotland you come to England Where because you could finde nothing done by popular tumult nothing but by the whole state in Parliament and Clergie in Conuocation you fall vpon King Henries passions you will not insist vpon them you say and yet you doe as long as vpon any one member of your induction though it matters little whether you doe or no since F. Parsons will needes auerre that hee liued and died of your religion Here first you mention his violent diuorcing himselfe from his lawfull wife Wee will not now debate the question how his Brothers wife could bee his lawfull wife you must now say so Whatsoeuer the Scriptures Councels almost all Vniuersities of Christendome determined Yet mee thinkes it should moue you that Pope Clement himselfe had consigned to Cardinal Campegius a Breue formed to sentence for the King in as ample manner as could be howsoeuer vpon the successe of the Emperours affaires in Italie and his own occasions he sent a special messenger to him to burn it But what violence was this that you speake of The matter was orderlie and iudiciouslie by the Arch-bishop of Canterbury with the assistance of the learnedest of the Clergie according to the ancient Canons of the Church and lawes of the Realme heard and determined That indeede is more to be maruelled at what moued him to fall out with the Pope his friend in whose quarrell he had so far engaged himselfe as to write against Luther of whom also he was so rudelie handled as you mention before hauing receiued also for some part of recompence the title of the Defender of the Faith hauing beene so chargeablie thankefull to the Pope for it All these things considered it must be said this vnkindnesse and slipperie dealing of Clement with him was from the Lord that hee might haue an occasion against the Pope and that it might appeare that it was not humane counsell but diuine prouidence that brought about the banishment of the Popes tyrannie from among vs. His marriage with the Ladie Anne Bullen her death and the rest which you mention of the abling or disabling her issue to inherit the Crown I see not what it makes to our purpose The suppression of the Monasteries was not his sole Act but of the whole State with the consent also of the Clergie and taken out of Cardinall Wolsey his example yea founded vpon the Popes authoritie granted to him to dissolue the smaller houses of religion on pretence to defray the charges of his sumptuous buildings at Oxford and lâ—swich wherein if it pittie you as I confesse it hath sometimes mee that such goodly buildings are defaced and ruined wee must remember what God did to Shâ—loh yea to Ierusalem it selfe and his Temple there And that Oracle Euery tree that beareth not good fruit shall be cut downe and cast into the fire You demand If this man King Henry were a good head of Gods Church What if I should demand the same touching Alexander the Sixth Iulius the Second Leo the Tenth or twentie more of the Catalogue of Popes in respect of whom King Henry might bee canonized for a Saint But there is a storie in Tullies Offices of one Lutatius that laid a wager that he was bonus vir a good man and would bee iudged by one Fimbria a man of Consular dignitie Hee when he vnderstood the case said Hee would neuer iudge that matter least either hee should diminish the reputation of a man well esteemed of or set downe that any man was a good man which hee accounted to consist in an innumerable sort of excellencies and praises That which hee said of a good man with much more reason may I sâ—y of a good King one of whose highest excellencies is to bee a good head of the Church And therefore it is a
THE COPIES OF CERTAINE LETTERS WHICH HAVE passed betweene SPAINE and ENGLAND in matter of RELIGION Concerning the generall Motiues to the Romane obedience Betweene Master IAMES WADESWORTH a late Pensioner of the Holy Inquisition in Siuill and W. BEDELL a Minister of the Gospell of Iesus Christ in SVFFOLKE LONDON Printed by William Stansby for William Barret and Robert Milbourne 1624. TO THE MOST HIGH AND EXCELLENT PRINCE PRINCE CHARLES I Should labour much in my excuse euen to mine owne iudgement of the highest boldnesse in daring to present these Papers to your Highnes if there were not some releeuing circumstances that giue mee hope it shall not be disagreeable to your higher goodnesse There is nothing can see the light which hath the name of Spaine in it which seemes not now properly yours euer since it pleased you to honor that Countrie with your presence And those very Motiues to the Romane obedience which had beene represented vnto you there in case you had giuen way to the propounding them are in these Letters charitably and calmly examined Betweene a couple of friends bred in the same Colledge that of the foundation of Sir WALTER MILDMAY of blessed memorie whom with honor and thankfulnesse I name chosen his Schollers at the same election lodged in the same Chamber after Ministers in the same Diocesse And that they might bee matchable abroad as well as at home attendants in the same ranke as Chaplaines on two Honorable Ambassadors of the Majestie of the King your Father in forraine parts the one in Italie the other in Spaine Where one of them hauing changed his profession and receiued a pension out of the holy Inquisition house and drawne his wife and children thither was lately often in the eyes of your Highnesse very ioyfull I suppose to see you there not more I am sure then the other was solicitous to misse you here These passages betweene vs I haue hitherto forborn to divulge out of the hope of further answer from Master Wadesworth according to his promise though since the receipt of my last being silent to my selfe he excused him in sundrie his Letters to others by his lack of health Nor should I haue changed my resolution but that I vnderstand that presently after your Highnesse departure from Spaine hee departed this life Which newes though it grieue me as it ought in respect of the losse of my friend yet it somewhat contenteth me not to haue beene lacking in my endeauour to the vndeceiuing a well-meaning man touching the state of our differences in Religion nor as I hope to haue scandalized him in the manner of handling them And conceiuing these Copies may be of some publike vse the more being liâ—ted vp aboue their owne meannesse by so high patronage I haue aduentured to prefixe your Highnesse name before them Humbly beseeching the same that if these reasons be too weake to beare vp the presumption of this Dedication it may bee charged vpon the strong desire some way to expresse the vnspeakeable joy for your Highnesse happy returne into England of one amongst many thousands Of your Highnesse most humble and deuoted seruants W. BEDELL THE CONTENTS 1. A Letter of Master Wadesworth contayning his Motiues to the Romane obedience Dated at Seuill in Spaine April 1. 1615. printed as all the rest out of his owne hand-writing pag. 1. 2. Another Letter from him requiring answere to the former from Madrid in Spaine April 14. 1619. pag. 16. 3. The answere to the last Letter Dated Aug. 5. 1619. pag. 17. 4. A Letter from Master Wadesworth vpon the receipt of the former From Madrid Dated Oct. 28. 1619. receiued May 23. 1620. pag. 23. 5. The answere to the last Letter Iune 15. 1620. pag. 25. 6. A Letter from Master Wadesworth from Madrid Iune 8. 1620. pag. 29. 7. A Letter of Master Doctor Halls sent to Master Wadesworth and returned into England with his marginall notes pag. 30. 8. A Letter returning it inclosed to Master Doctor Hall pag. 36. 9. A Letter sent to Master Wadesworth together with the Examination of his Motiues Octob. 22. 1620. pag. 36. 10. The Examination of the Motiues in the first Letter pag. 39. The heads of the Motiues reduced vnto twelue Chapters answering vnto the like figures in the Margint of the first of Master WADESWORTHS Letters Chap. I. OF the Preamble The Titles Catholike Papist Traytor Idolater The vniformitie of Faith in Protestant Religion pag. 39. Chap. II. Of the contrarietie of Sects pretended to be amongst Reformers Their differences how matters â—f Faith Of each pretending Scripture and the holy Ghost pag. 44. Chap. III. Of the want of a humane externall infallible Iudge and Interpreter The obiections answered First that Scriptures are oft matter of controuersie Secondly that they are the Law and Rule Thirdly that Princes are no Iudges Fourthly nor a whole Councell of Reformers The Popes being the Iudge and Interpreter ouerthrown by reasons And by his palpable misse-interpreting the Scriptures in his Decretals The style of his Court His Breues about the Oath of allegeance p. 50. Chap. IIII. Of the state of the Church of England and whether it may be reconciled with Rome Whether the Pope be Antichrist PAVLO V. VICE-DEO OVR LORD GOD THE POPE the Relation de moderandis titulis with the issue of it pag. 72. Chap. V. Of the safenesse to ioyne to the Romane being confessed a true Church by her Opposites Master P. Wottons peruersion printed at Venice The badge of Christs sheepe pag. 82. Chap. VI. Of fraud and corruption in alledging Councels Fathers and Doctors The falsifications imputed to Morney Bishop Iewell Master Fox Tyndals Testament Parsons foure falshoods in seuen lines A taste of the forâ—eries of the Papacy In the ancient Popes Epistles Constantines Donation Gratian The Schoolemen and Breuiaries by the complaint of the Venettan Diuines The Father 's not vntoucht Nor the Hebrew Text. pag. 91. Chap. VII Of the Armies of euident witnesses for the Romanists Whence it seemes so to the vnexpert Souldier The censure of the Centurists touching the Doctrine of the Ancients Danaeus of Saint Augustines opinion touching Purgatorie An instance or two of Imposture in wresting Tertullian Cyprian Augustine p. 108. Chap. VIII Of the inuisibilitie of the Church said to bee an eâ—asion of Protestants The promises made to the Church and her glorious Titles how they are verified out of Saint Augustine falsly applied to the whole visible Church or representatiue or the Pope pag. 118. Chap. IX Of lack of vniformitie in matters of Faith in all ages and places What matters of Faith the Church holds vniformely and so the 〈◊〉 Of Wicliffe and Hus c. whether they were martyrs p. 12â— Chap. X. Of the originall of Reformation in Luther Câ—luin Scotland England Whether King Henrie the eight were a good head of the Church Of the Reformers in France and Holland The originall growth and supporting of the Popes Monarchie considered pag. 122. Chap. XI Of
are matters of Faith For both Faith hath to doe with them and they are fetched by discourse from the first Principles holden by Faith whence our whole Religion is called by Saint Iude the Faith once deliuered to the Saints And the least error in them by consequence ouerthrowes the same principles whence they are deduced That makes some to mooue attention in their Readers to say The questions are not about small matters but of the principall Articles of Religion euen about the foundation As Cuâ—aeus whom he cites saith the question is of two Articles of Faith First of that which teacheth that in Christ two natures are vnited Secondly of the Article He ascended into Heauen Why doe not both sides agree to these Yes But one side fetches arguments against vbiquitie from these places and thereupon saith the question is about these Articles perhaps also chargeth the other to denie them Hee cites Pappus writing thus Agitur inter nos de Omnipotentia Dei c. The controuersie betwixt vs is about the Omnipotencie of God The personall vnion of the two natures in Christ. The communication of properties The glorious body of our Sauiour c. Loe againe euery place of argument or defence is made the matter of Controuersie Out of these and such like confessions on either side my namelesse Aduersarie will needes enforce with great pompe and triumph what thinke yee That such sanctified men this is his scoffing language goe not together by the eares for Moon-shine in the water Againe That all those Myrmidonian fights and bloudie encounters bee not de lanâ Caprinâ aut de vmbrâ asini Why who said they were I will set downe here my wordes that you may iudge of the conscience of this man and haue with all the substance of my answere to this obiection And what if some outragious spirits on each side transâ—ported with passion in their oppositions haue vsed most bitter and vnbeseeming speeches to their Aduersaries and sometimes haue shewed each other small humanitie are you so simple as not to discerne betweene the choller of some few opinionate men and the consequence of their opinions Haue you forgotten Saint Hierome and Ruffinus deadly foe-hood which was rung ouer the world or Epiphanius and Chrysostomes or Victors and the Greeke Bishops which proceeded so farre about a trifle that hee excommunicated them which is little lesse I thinke then to condemne to the pit of Hell And yet if I should put it to your iudgement I am perswaded you would grant they held all truth necessarie to saluation For you must remember Pope Boniface had not yet coyned the new Article of the Faith that I mentioned before What shall I speake of Saint Paul and Barnabas which grew to such bitternesse and that about a very little question of conueniency that though they were sent out together by the Holy Ghost they brake off companie These be humane passions which wisedome would we should pittie when they grow to such extremities vpon so small cause rather then from their outrage to gather there is iust cause to encrease Doe we not see that euen naturall brethren doe sometimes defie one another and vse each other with lesse respect then strangers Now from hence would you conclude they bee not brethren and hearten them on and say to the one that sith his halfe brother is not so neere to him as he with whom he is thus at oddes hee must fall out worse with him You should well so deserue the hate of God for a make-hate betweene brethren These were all my wordes set downe in answere to his obiecting our owne contentions and condemning each other to proue that therefore we could not hold continuitie with the ancient Church of England from which we dissented much more I held as you may perceiue that neither amongst our selues nor from our predecessors wee disagree in any truth necessarie to saluation Hee makes me to say our dissentions are about Moone shine and de vmbrâ asini de laâ—â caprinâ and trâ—fles and matters of no consequence To returne to you good Master Waddesworth let men auouch as confidently as they will touching their owne positions Est de Fide Nâ—hil certius apud Catholicos and of their contraries crie out They are Heretikes renew ancient heresies race the foundation denie the Articles of the Creede Gods â—â—â—ipoteney c. all because themselues by discourse can as they thinke fasten such things vpon them A sober Christian must not giue heede to all that is said in this kinde These things must be examined with right iudgement and euer with much charitie and patience remembring that our selues know in part and prophesie in part In a wordâ— this should not haue so much disquieted you Nor yet that which you adde That euery one pretends Scripture Best of all saith Saint Chrysostome For if wee should say we beleeue humane reasons thou mightest with good reason 〈◊〉 troubled but when as we receiue the 〈◊〉 and they bee simple and true it will 〈…〉 thing for 〈◊〉 to iâ—dge c. And to what purpose indeed serues the facultie of â—â—â—son perfected and polished with learning wherefore the supernaturall light of Faith wherefore the gift of God in vs Ministers conâ—erred by the imposition of hands but 〈◊〉 which side handles the Word of God deceitfully which sincerely But here againe Each side arrogates the Holy Ghost in his fauour What then If wee our selues haue the anointing we shall be able as we are bidden to trie the spirits whether they bee of God or no For wee will not bâ—leeue them because they say they haue the Spirit or cannot bee deceiued but because their Doctrine is consonant to the principles of heauenly Truth which by the writings inspired by himselfe the Holy Ghost hath grauen in our hearts Which writings are well acknowledged by you to be the Law and Rule according whereunto in iudgement of Religion we must proceede CHAP. III. Of the want of a humane externall infallible Iudge and Interpreter AS to that you say did about all trouble you the want of a certaine humane externall infallible Iudge to interpret Scripture and define Questions of Faith without error What if you found not an externall humane Iudge if you had an internall diuine one And hauing an infallible Rule by which your humane Iudge should proceede why should you trust another mans applying it rather then your own in a matter concerning your owne saluation But iâ— God haue left vs no such externall Iudge if Antiquitie knew 〈◊〉 if Religion neede none it was no iust motiue to leaue vs that you could finde none amongst all those Sects which 〈…〉 And how much lesse if you haue 〈…〉 amended your selfe where you are which we shall consider by and by I say then first that to make this your motiue of any moment it must be shewed that God hath appointed such a Iudge in his Church Let that appeare out of some
prophane nouelties of heresies Had they knowne of this infallible Iudge should wee not haue heard of him in this so proper a place and as it were in a cause belonging to his owne Court Nay doth not the writing it selfe of such bookes shew that this mattter was wholly vnknowne to Antiquitie For had the Church beene in possession of so easie and sure a Court to discouer and discard heresies they should not haue needed to taske themselues to finde out any other But the truth is infallibilitie is and euer hath beene accounted proper to Christs iudgement And as hath beene said all necessarie Truth to saluation hee hath deliuered vs in his Word That Word himselfe tells vs shall iudge at the last day Yea in all true decisions of Faith that Word euen now iudgeth Christ iudgeth the Apostle sits Iudge Christ speakes in the Apostle Thus Antiquitie Neither are they moued a whit with that obiection That the Scriptures are often the matter of Controuersies For in that case the remedie was easie which Saint Augustine shewes to haue recourse to the plaine places and manifest such as should need no interpreter for such there bee by which the other may bee cleered The same may be said if sometimes it be questioned which bee Scriptures which not I thinke it was neuer heard of in the Church that there was an externall infallible Iudge who could determine that question Arguments may be brought from the consent or dissent with other Scriptures from the attestation of Antiquitie and inherent signes of diuine authoritie or humane infirmitie but if the Auditor or Aduersarie yeeld not to these such parts of necessitie must needes be laid aside If all Scripture be denied which is as it were exceptio in iudicem ante litis contestationem Faith hath no place onely Reason remaines To which I thinke it will scarce seeme reasonable if you should say though all men are liers yet this Iudge is infallible and to him thou oughtest in conscience to obey and yeeld thy vnderstanding in all his detâ—rminations for hee cannot erre No not if all men in the world should say it Vnlesse you first set downe there is a God and stablish the authoritie of the bookes of holy Scripture as his voyce and thence shew if you can the warrant of this priuiledge Where you offiâ—me the Scriptures to be the law and the rule but alone of themselues cannot bee Iudges if you meane without being produced applied and heard yee say truth Yet Nicodemus spake not aâ—isse when hee demanded Doth our law iudge any man vnlesse it heare him first hee meant the same which Saint Paul when hee said of the high Priest thou sittest to iudge me according to the law and so doe we when wee say the same Neither doe wee send you to Angels or God himselfe immediately but speaking by his spirit in the Scriptures and as I haue right now said alledged and by discourse applied to the matters in question As for Princes since it pleased you to make an excursion to them if wee should make them infallible Iudge or giue them authoritie to decree in religion as they list as Gardiner did to King Henry the eight it might well bee condemned for monstrous as it was by Caluin As for the purpose Licere Regi interdicere populo vsum calicis in Coena Quarè Potestas 〈◊〉 summa est penes Regem quoth Gardiner This was to make the King as absolute a Tyrant in the Church as the Pope claimed to bee But that Princes which obey the truth haue commandement from God to command good things and forbid euill not onely in matters pertaining to humane societie but also the religion of God this is no new strange doctrine but Calums and ours and S. Augustines is so many words And this is all the Head-ship of the Church wee giue to Kings Whereof a Queene is as well capable as a King since it is an Act of authoritie not Ecclesiasticall Ministery proceeding from eminencie of power not of knowledge or holinesse Wherein not onely a learned King as ours is but a good old woman as Queene Elizabeth besides her Princely dignitie was may excell as your selues confesse your infallible Iudge himselfe But in power hee saith hee is aboue all which not to examine for the present in this power Princes are aboue all their subiects I trow and Saint Augustine saith plainly to command and forbid euen in the religion of God still according to Gods Word which is the touchstone of good and euill Neither was King Henry the eight the first Prince that exercised this power witnesse Dauid and Salomon and the rest of the Kings of Iudah before Christ And since that Kings were Christians the affaires of the Church haue depended vpon them and the greatest Synodes haue beene by their Decree as Socrates expresly saith Nor did King Henry claime any new thing in this Land but restored to the Crowne the ancient right thereof which sundry his predecessors had exercised as our Historians and Lawyers with one consent affirme The rest of your induction of Archbishops Bishops and whole Clergie in their Conuocation house and a Councell of all Lutherans Caluinists Protestants c. is but a needlesse pompe of words striuing to win by a forme of discourse that which gladly shall bee yeelded at the first demand They might all erre if they were as many as the sand on the sea shoare if they did not rightly apply the rule of holy Scriptures by which as you acknowledge the externall Iudge which you seeke must proceed As to your demand therefore how you should be sure when and wherein they did and did not erre where you should haue fixed your foot to forbeare to skirmish with your confirmation That though à posse ad esse non valet semper consequentia yet aliquando valet frustra dicitur potentia quae nunquam dueitur in actum To the former whereof I might tell you that without question nunquam valet and to the second that I can verie well allow that errandi potentia among Protestants be euer frustra This I say freely that if you come with this resolution to learne nothing by discourse or euidence of Scripture but only by the meere pronouncing of a humane externall Iudges mouth to whom you would yeeld your vnderstanding in all his determinations if as the Iesuites teach their Schollers you will wholly deny your owne iudgement and resolue that if this Iudge shall say that is blacke which appeares to your eyes white you will say it is blacke too you haue posed all the Protestants they cannot tell how to teach you infallibly Withall I must tell you thus much that this preparation of minde in a Scholler as you are in a Minister yea in a Christian that had but learned his Creed much more that had from a childe knowne the holy Scriptures that are able to make vs wise to saluation
Christ Heretickes and Sectaries accursed them drew them out of â—heir Synagogues scourged them cast them in prison compelled them to blaspheme as you doe now Protestants to adiuâ—e though in other cruelties I confesse you goe farre beyond them By like reason a Pagan in Saint Augustines time should rather haue made himselfe a Christian among the Donatists then with the Catholikes For the Catholikes granted the Donatists Baptisme to bee true accounâ—ed them Brethren The Donatists to the contrary renounced their Brother-hood and Baptisme both rebaptized such as fell to their side vsed these formes to their friends Saue thy Soule become a Christian like to those vsed by your Reconcilers at this â—ay Lastly consider if this ground of the testimony of our contraries for our part and their lack of ours for theirs be sure you haue iustified the cause of the Protestants in the maine question which is the better religion For whatsoeuer a Protestant holds as of Faith you cannot deny to bee good and Catholike nor any Christian man else For hee binds him to his Creed to the holy Scriptures and goes no further and in these he hath your testimony for him But hee denies many things which you beleeue and accounts them forreine yea repugnant to Faith as the Popes infallibilitie Transubstantiation Purgatory worshipping of Images inuocation of Saints In all these you speake onely for your selues in some of these you haue not vs onely but all other Christians your opposites to say nothing of the Iewes and Turkes whom I might as well chocke you withall as you doe the Protestants with Anabaptists So by this reason our profession is more safe and secure and questionlesse is more Catholike then yours Neither haue wee in this discourse the Argument onely as you see very appliable and fauourable to vs but which I would entreate you by the way to obserue the conclusion it selfe often granâ—ed by moderate and sober men of your owne side viz. that our course is in sundry things more safe then yours As in making no Image of God In trusting onely in the merits of Christ. In worshipping none but the Trinitie In directing our prayers to our Lord Iesus Christ alone In allowing Ministers to marry In diâ—ers other points also many of your side say the same with the Protestants and defend vs from the imputations which others of you lay vpon vs as is shewed in the Catholike Apologie by the Reuerend Bishop of Chester This to the proposition Let vs come to the Assumption where you mince too much the Protestants opinion touching the Church of Rome when you make them say It is peraduenture faultie in some things Nay without peraduenture they say It is corrupt in doctrine superstitious and Idolatrous in religion tyrannicall in gouernment defiled in manners from the crowne of the head to the soale of the foot no soundnes in it as the Prophet saith of another like it yet the vitall parts not perished readie to die yet not dead A true Church though neither the Catholike Church nor yet a sound member of the same That also is false in the assumption that the Puritans denie the Church of England to bee a true Church Vnlesse the Puritans and Brownists bee with you all one which you haue made diuers Sects aboue and then are you to blame as to multiply names whereof I haue told you before so now againe to confound them What is now the Conclusion It would be more safe and secure to become a Roman Catholike But the Proposition wil not inferre thus much simply but onely in this respect For Topicall arguments as you know hold onely caeteris paribus We must then inquire if there be no other intrinsecall arguments by which it may bee discerned whether cause bee the better whether pretence to the Church and Truth more iust more euident Whether it may bee warranted to returne to Babell because God hath some people there when as he commands those that are there to come out of it How safe it may bee willingly to ioyne with that part of the Church which is more corrupt in Doctrine and Manners when wee may continue with that which is reformed These points were to haue been scanned ere you concluded and executed as you did And such Arguments there want not Christ our Lord hath giuen vs amongst others two infallible Notes to know his Church My Sheepe saith hee heare my voice and againe By this shall all men knowe that yee are my Disciples if yee loue one another What shall wee stand vpon coniecturall Arguments from that which men say We are partiall to our selues malignant to our opposites Let Christ bee heard who bee his who not And for the hearing of his voice O that it might be the issue But I see you decline it Therefore I leaue it also for the present That other is that which now I stand vpon the badge of Christs sheepe Not a likelihood but a certaine token whereby euery man may know them By this saith he shall all men know that yee are my Disciples if yee haue charitie one towards another Thanks be to God This marke of our Sauiour is in vs which you with our Schismatikes and other enemies want As Salomon found the true Mother by her naturall affection that chose rather to yeeld to her Aduersaries plea clayming her childe then endure it should bee cut in peeces so may it soone bee found at this day whether is the right Mother Ours that saith giue her the liuing child and kill him not or yours that if shee may not haue it is content it bee killed rather then want of her will Alas saith ours euen of those that leaue her these be my children I haue borne them to Christ in Baptisme I haue nourished them as I could with mine owne breasts his Testaments I would haue brought them vp to mans estate as their free birth and parentage deserues Whether it bee their lightnesse or discontent or her enticing wordes and gay shewes they leaue me they haue found a better Mother Let them liue yet though in bondage I shall haue patience I permit the care of them to their Father I beseech him to keepe them that they doe none euill if they make their peace with him I am satisfied they haue not hurt me at all Nay but saith yours I sit alone as Queene and Mistris of Christs family hee that hath not me for his Mother cannot haue God for his Father Mine therefore are these either borne or adopted and if they will not bee mine they shall bee none So without expecting Christs sentence shee cuts in peeces with the temporall sword hangs burnes drawes those that shee perceiues inclined to leaue her or haue left her alreadie So shee kils with the spirituall sword those that subiect not to her yea thousands of soules that not onely haue no meanes so to doe but many which neuer so